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Old 01-08-2007, 02:19 PM   #1
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Public Smoking Areas: Like Going Hunting with Dick Cheney

The verdict is in and it is guilty. Smoking is dangerous to one's health and cannot be controlled by so-called "smoking areas." The fact is that there is no such thing as area reserved for smokers unless it involves some kind of enclosed space with a guarantee that air circulation won't result in the carcinogens carried in tobacco smoke being exposed to those have chosen not to ingest poisonous toxins into their body. Regardless of Michael Crichton might believe, not only does global warming really exist, but so do the dangers of second hand smoke.
an industry that purposely created a product to kill their customers.
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Old 01-08-2007, 02:47 PM   #2
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This is a DANGEROUS slope. Sure smoking is not good for you. Nobody will disagree. The problem is this is America. IT is not the job of the government to decide where one can participate in a LEGAL act. If the person who owns a bar wants to allow smoking it is there bar to do so. If you as a free American don't wish to be exposed to smoke then there is a very easy solution DON'T GO IN! Now they are trying to make it illegal to smoke while driving if somebody in the car is under 18.

Sound like a good idea right? Makes sense right?

The problem it is a steep and slippery slope. Today they say no smoking in the car. Then they say you cant smoke in your house with kids. Now that the stage is set for the government knowing whats best for you whats next? I will be glad to tell you. First will be food. I am sure someone who knows better then you will make a law that says you can not feed your children any fast food as it is not good for them. Then they will make dietary requirements. You must feed your kids at least so many grams of this and no more then so many grams of that. Where will it end? When will people stand up and say this is going to far? [/b]
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Old 01-08-2007, 03:03 PM   #3
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i dont think i can post in this thread and be cival.

id better stop now...
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Old 01-08-2007, 03:25 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by kuzi16
i dont think i can post in this thread and be cival.

id better stop now...
I held myself WAY back. I edited this for about twenty minutes.
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Old 01-08-2007, 04:25 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Travismaine
IT is not the job of the government to decide where one can participate in a LEGAL act.
no, but the gov't can always declare something illegal and then control it. which is what it did here. smoking indoors is illegal. thus, within government purview.

you are allowed to target shoot, but not in a bank. you may "consummate a marriage" with another adult, but not in public, and never with a 13-year old. you may drink at home, but not in public. you may smoke tobacco if you are 18, but not in hospitals where oxygen gas is used, not when fueling vehicles, and not indoors in certain areas.

if you think smoking indoors should not be illegal, that's a different argument.
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Old 01-08-2007, 04:40 PM   #6
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what i dont understand is why you come over to this forum and post something like you posted, when you know 95% of the readers are going to disagree and get pissed off, and potentially start a flame war...

it'd be like someone going over into your gun forums and start preaching about policy that is fundamentally oppressive to gun ownership rights...

im just curious i guess as to what you wanted to accomplish, is there anyone on this cigar forum who's mind you thought you might change on the issue? or did you think some people's responses here might make some sense and perhaps your mind was open to change on the issue?
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Old 01-08-2007, 07:36 PM   #7
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Sounds like the ideology of the religious zelots to me. We must convert them!!!
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Old 01-09-2007, 04:09 AM   #8
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Its oppression
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Old 01-09-2007, 05:25 AM   #9
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As a staff moderator/member I am on the verge of locking this down. If it digresses any further it will be!

Don't shoot the messenger...... Chuck/Marine1 is a former staff member who has always been noted for posting news items of interest on Amback (don't believe me, go research his prior posts). Chuck also is a historian of WW II and has posted alot of awesome photos that he has and has been gracious enough to scan them and post them online so that today's generation has a chance to see some of the things from that era.

Chuck/Marine1 did not post this as HIS BELIEF or OPINION..... That first paragraph is simply following Amback Forum Policy of Excerpt and Link. To post this news item anywhere else on Amback (Debate, etc.....) would not have gotten it seen by the people most affected by it. My request of everyone is to step back before jumping at someone who posts something you don't fully agree with. The OP was not done maliciously or with intent to inflame, it was made to simply inform interested parties of something that is going on. The targe of your ire should be the author of the linked to article!

His posting in Cigars would be appropriate seeing as it was a news item and would be of interest to those who smoke.
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Old 01-09-2007, 06:12 AM   #10
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an apology is owed on my part to Marine1, i did not realize it was an excerpt of an article due to the lack of "...", i mistook it for him opining on the article in his link...i should have the read the article more closely (or actually read it, lol)...sorry Chuck
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Old 01-09-2007, 06:13 AM   #11
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I have no problem with Marine1 posting that. The article though is a straightforward opinion piece with no scientific fact to bolster it's claims and as such is worthless to me.
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Old 01-09-2007, 06:26 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Cloudy
I have no problem with Marine1 posting that. The article though is a straightforward opinion piece with no scientific fact to bolster it's claims and as such is worthless to me.
i actually have to ditto this as well...if you click on the authors name, some specific points of interest are his rather limited education in terms of qualifying him as someone to listen to on the subject, and his motto and affiliations...this is nowhere news worthy, just one of a gazillion blog rants on an issue...the news value in his article is akin to the value generated in asking my neighbor to write a two page essay on how well the newspaper boy heaves the Sunday Post on our front stoop....but it does provoke some thought on the issue so i can see some value in that

just my .02
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Old 01-09-2007, 06:37 AM   #13
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As a cigar smoker I am always interested in reading articles like this, it lets me know what we as a group are up against, unfortuatally this type of thinking is gaining popularity, just recentally the city of Grand Rapids passed a no smoking in public places law, it exempts bars and restaurants for the time being, but I'm sure those won't be to long to follow. I am one person with one voice and one vote, as a group we have to stay active on these issues, just my 2 cents, thanks to Marine1 for keeping me up to date on these whacked out idiologies.

Notice the tagline of the website "The Peoples Media Co." I guess soon we will be the "Peoples Republic".
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Old 01-09-2007, 12:01 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Markus59
As a cigar smoker I am always interested in reading articles like this, it lets me know what we as a group are up against, unfortuatally this type of thinking is gaining popularity, just recentally the city of Grand Rapids passed a no smoking in public places law, it exempts bars and restaurants for the time being, but I'm sure those won't be to long to follow. I am one person with one voice and one vote, as a group we have to stay active on these issues, just my 2 cents, thanks to Marine1 for keeping me up to date on these whacked out idiologies.

Notice the tagline of the website "The Peoples Media Co." I guess soon we will be the "Peoples Republic".
Thank you, Markus59: As a smoker of (50) years, I also enjoy my smokes, and try to stay up on the whacked out idiologies that effect me, and you. The below (2) links are actual News items and not blogs nor one persons opinion. They should carry a little more credibility of the issues of an outright attempt to deny you and I, our smoking pleasures. I try to stay on top of these types of issues, and inform others, who may not be aware of these banning attempts. Today, the smoking bans have begun reached our homes, and inside our cars. I grew up with smoking people in just about any enclosed area one can imagine. It's just another liberal - former smoker anti-tobacco deed. It's not a health issue, IMO. It's a tax $$$$ issue, with an attention getter of, "It's for the kids", scenario. Please click on the news links below. Mikegunner, thank you for stepping in and clarifying the original post. To others who have humbled themselves with a formal apology, my greatest respects to you, for the gentlemen you certainly are.

Bangor Makes It Illegal to Smoke in Cars

UK COUPLE FACE SMOKING PROBE IN OWN HOME...
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Old 01-09-2007, 03:11 PM   #15
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I was unable to get on here at AmBack until just a little while ago. At first I skimmed this post quickly, and seeing Mike's explanation, had to go on to other duties, not internet related.

I'm glad to see the thread has been clarified/cooled down. I knew when I saw the initial post that it wasn't necessarily coming from Marine1's ideology, but as though he were a news anchor.

About Marine1 himself, I'm glad to see Mike stepped up, and he knows Marine1 FAR better than I, but I just wanted to say that I do know him well enough to state for a fact that he is a stand up guy when it comes to what's truly important in life.

As for the author of the article Marine1 posted, or anyone who might come here into the forums to either present, provoke, prod or infiltrate and inflame, this article, and this thread might be a good time for us to think about how we would tackle such a debate.

Since engaging in the type of behavior that caused Mike to type in the admonishment about possibly closing the thread is not allowed, let's think a bit. We know AmBack runs a tight ship, and that's one thing we love about it here. We all know where to go if we want the let down our hair and act as though it were a rather rough edged, but still civil club, kind of like a lot of Irish neighborhood pubs.

There are still such places in NYC, and a few more in Bahstin, where one can see two 6'6" Irish cousins punch each other out, threaten to burn down each other's homes, threaten to have at each other's wives, and 15 minutes later, they're brushing dirt off each other, handing back each other's teeth, buying each other a beer, putting their arms around each other, and telling each other how much they love the other guy. And speaking of which, how bad would you want to punch me out if I had said "each other" again?

But perhaps the most interesting thing about this thread is exercise. Yes, exercise. Now, I had an advantage because Marine1 and I have spoken to each other enough on PM and in other forums for me to know what an OVERALL stand-up guy he is. And whether or not he WAS in agreement with the author of the article, if I had been able to get on line sooner, I would have posted similarly to Mike.

BUT, let's all stop and think a minute. We don't want things to be too "rough edged" here at AmBack, but what to do, what to do? Well, go over to the General Discussion or Political Issues forums, and you'll see many examples of what "Uncle Bill" likes to refer to as "robust discussion."

And that after all, IS what America is all about, no? Yes. It's what the Founding Fathers tried to instill in the spirit of this nation, robust discussion, not fighting, nor even enmity of a non-physical nature. The kind of nation that wouldn't want to fight, but be prepared as well as any other nation, only when it absolutely had to. But they founded a nation where things within the nation should never be settled, nor should any true talking points be made, in a "fighting" fashion.

So, by virtue of the article Marine1 posted, and things that are posted in General Discussion every day, we can see that our beloved personal freedoms are being eroded every day.

Is there ANYTHING we can do, other than flaming, shouting, punching the walls, punching someone else, or just running away? Since there's "no where to run to, nowhere to hide," can we marshall any of our energies as cigar smokers and citizens of America to either combat this menace, or at least engage in "robust discussion" with true knowledge, and talking points formulated on that knowledge, and done so in a fluid and non-emotional fashion?

We can certainly try. Firstly, let's go back to a point that I and others have made in past discussions. We can point out that commercially produced cigarettes are not true tobacco products and therefore, legal maneuvers aimed against the cigarette industry, should not be aimed against tobacco producers worldwide, such as those who funnel their tobacco into the making of premium, hand rolled cigars.

We could also point out studies that show SANE cigar smoking (NOT like David Letterman ), is something that has been proven to have little to no deleterious health effects. Let me point out that the studies I'm referring to are those where two to three Churchill sized cigars a day were being smoked. That's STILL a lot of cigar smoking, and if it takes two or three Churchills a day before certain health risks even begin to kick in at low percentages of incidence, you're having a lot of cigar smoking fun. We have the "we don't inhale" and "there are no harmful chemical additives in cigars" talking points as well.

As cigar smokers, we have a lot of information on our side with which we can come armed to any debate. Win, lose or draw, it's always good to know that you are armed with true knowledge, and have spoken well on behalf of your point of view, with articulation.

One of the hardest things that it has been for me to do in life is learn to be studious, verbally articulate, and come up with cogent ways of verbally explaining certain points of view that I have. I want communication to be easy, when I know I'm right about something I just want people to accept it and move on. I don't like explaining myself to people, and when I'm forced to, I often see it as tiresome and non-productive.

I used to become emotional, frustrated, and even back in my liberal NYC lefty days, engage in the same type of slogan using, name calling stuff that the current president is by now all too used to. I'm not talking about the good natured, but edgy satire, I'm talking about the stuff like "the only good Republican is a dead Republican" kind of stuff.

Since my spiritual beliefs won't permit me to engage in that sort of hard core, offputting kind of debate, which does nothing to enrich, edify or promote real peace and understanding, I've been forced to at least become somewhat proficient in verbal explanations regarding certain points of view. It has been tiresome and at many times seemingly pointless, but I have learned quite a bit about life and myself, and also found that I have become even more successful in certain social situations. Even recently, when a best friend, someone I've known for 35 years, engaged in an endless menu of "stupid schmuck" and "moron" involving a discussion that he forced upon me, I emerged in a way that was surprising even to myself.

No, my friend still considers me to be a stupid schmuck and a moron regarding my world view, and many social views, but I held up well to the pounding, and did so without resorting to any of my old ways, although if there were a time I could have, that would have been it. There have been quite a few of those times over the past few years, and I always look upon them as exercise. As someone who accepted the Bible 22 years ago, I often look to what Jesus and the early apostles suffered, for something that was no more than a point of view and a way of life really, because they were basically "live and let live kind of people," they just had some good news they wanted to tell a lot of other people.

As for the ways in which each one of us weathers the brunt of social change and opposing opinions, that's a personal thing. Whoever or whatever your "center" is, this thread can serve as an example of how we can all polish certain tools we all possess within our respective intellects, and utilize those tools in a comprehensive, non-combative fashion to either engage in debate or even wield social power.

No argument which is formulated with anything but the facts spoken in a well formed, even-tempered fashion can hope to stand, whether against an opposing argument or overwhelming social change. Social change is accomplished either by overwhelming your opponent with better arguments, even in the face of wrong-minded social views, or by force. We here at AmBack want everyone to learn to turn our swords into plowshares and our spears into pruning hooks. That way we can harvest the best of what our minds have to offer, and put that in to place in our respective corners of society, like letters to town officials, congresspeople, even the president.

Lastly, I can offer powerful examples from my own life. For the past six years, I have been mired in personal difficulties, mainly of the health and financial variety. On many occasions, it was my ability to read well, write well, and perform basic arithmetic very well, that helped save me. Thankfully, these skills were put to use with only a modicum of verbalization, most of the expression being done by absorbing the gist of certain mailings, and appealing to certain authorities by being able to type very professional, well expressed letters.

Making points in an even keeled fashion can wield enormous power in American society, even today in this age of political correctness, and whether your forte is the spoken word or the written/typed word, we can all set about digging deep into our skills to exercise that ability. Marine1's post and some of the subsequent replies helped bring that to light, and prompted me to point out those skills here.

The abovementioned friend of mine has a much more powerful intellect than I, and is a man of consummate knowledge. There's no way I could possibly ever accumulate the knowledge that he has, let alone debate with him. But through the defeaning crescendo of "stupid schmuck" and "morons," unlike the past, I never once lost my cool or my ability to think clearly enough to formulate all my talking points in a completely unemotional fashion. I also got him to agree with one of my bottom line points, something he's agreed with a ton of times in the past.

This is one of my problems, people who have the same conversation for years at a time. This guy has spent the period from the last few months prior to the 2000 election through this entire administration bashing me around the stadium for voting for Dubya, and has also been railing against capitalism for at least the past three decades. Of the 35 years I've known him, I've known him increasingly well for the past 30 years, and yes, the same conversation for over 30 years.

As much as that sucks, we have to learn to deal with all types in this world, especially when it comes to those we love, even if they are overbearing pricks. I am not much when it comes to the spoken word, and I don't really care to be around overbearing pricks. When an overbearing prick is one of your best friends, sometimes it behooves you to exercise certain muscles you hate to use. In this case, it was learning to connect my brain to a higher level of studiousness, and eventually to my mouth. That was exceedingly hard. If I can do it, anyone can.
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Old 01-09-2007, 07:37 PM   #16
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Old 01-09-2007, 08:24 PM   #17
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Bloof, wow. That was far more succinct and eloquent than I could ever hope to be in a posting on such a matter. I will admit to restraint of tongue and pen when I first looked at the initial article. I have learned that particular skill the hard way over the years

I'm going to quote some of your post and attempt to productively state a few of my opinions (remember this is just an opinion-not facts) on the subject at hand.

All quotes are italicized.

Firstly, let's go back to a point that I and others have made in past discussions. We can point out that commercially produced cigarettes are not true tobacco products and therefore, legal maneuvers aimed against the cigarette industry, should not be aimed against tobacco producers worldwide, such as those who funnel their tobacco into the making of premium, hand rolled cigars.



This is tricky. What needs to happen is a shift in how the general public views cigars, the perception of a cigar as just another nicotine delivery device on the same level as cigarretes needs to be changed. Cigar smokers know that there is a huge difference between hand rolled cigars and cigarettes but do the people sponsoring the legislation know this? The absolute worst thing the cigar lobbies could do in my opnion is align themselves with the cigarette industry. Big tobacco is dead credibility wise and with good reason. The more documents and marketing plans that come to the public awareness the worse the big tobacco companies look.

We could also point out studies that show SANE cigar smoking (NOT like David Letterman ), is something that has been proven to have little to no deleterious health effects. Let me point out that the studies I'm referring to are those where two to three Churchill sized cigars a day were being smoked. That's STILL a lot of cigar smoking, and if it takes two or three Churchills a day before certain health risks even begin to kick in at low percentages of incidence, you're having a lot of cigar smoking fun. We have the "we don't inhale" and "there are no harmful chemical additives in cigars" talking points as well

Once again, we as cigar smokers know this but does anybody else? Better yet does anyone but cigar smokers care? Until cigarettes and cigars are no longer associated together in the public eye then there will still be a perception problem. Yes the health risks from a good cigar are much less than a pack a day but the general public needs to know this. They also need to feel that cigar makers are not sitting in shareholder meeting discussing plans to market cigars to kids, juggle nicotine levels to snare new customers and what new chemical compound will keep the tobacco fresher longer.

As cigar smokers, we have a lot of information on our side with which we can come armed to any debate. Win, lose or draw, it's always good to know that you are armed with true knowledge, and have spoken well on behalf of your point of view, with articulation

I agree 100% with you. It's crazy, some of the guys I work with give me funny looks when I mention that I fire up a cigar every night upon completing my day. "Why would you do that?"is the usual question and I calmly explain the enjoyment I get from a good smoke, the lowered health risks, the wonderful taste a good smoke provides and the fact that it's also my personal freedom that I choose to exercise in the privacy of my own home. Keep in mind that a lot of the guys that give me grief about cigars are also going home and smoking cigarettes and also illicit forms of recreational plant material. You'd think that issues of preference and personal freedom would sink in but nope.

I am in a minority and I really don't care less who thinks worse of me for it. I am a responsible adult cigar smoker, I don't fire up just anywhere, I go to great length to observe other peoples rights when I do fire up and I like to feel that my use of tobacco is done in a responsible well educated manner.

That being said, I am glad that Marine1 did start this thread.
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Old 01-09-2007, 08:41 PM   #18
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You guys are using to many words with to many letters in them...
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Old 01-09-2007, 09:01 PM   #19
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Bloof,

Part of the problem is that since alot of those here in the Cigar Area come into the board through the Cigar.com portal, they do not ever venture out into the rest of the Amback Forum they do not know about all the other forums and sub-forums that are active on a daily basis.

If members go and read our forum policies, they will see that in order for a item to be posted legally within the forum requires a "excerpt and link" where the poster puts up the first paragraph of the copyrighted article in question and then puts a link to the source.

I have smoked at times in my life, but due to serious health issues involving my lungs and ability to breathe (sarcoidosis and other bronchial problems) I currently cannot be around smoke of any kind (fireplaces, coal/wood stoves, cigars, cigarettes. In fact, this past weekend we were in Pittsburgh and the hostess at Olive Garden led us to our table by going through their bar area. Duh, there were people smoking and it took me almost 15 minutes to catch my breath and stop wheezing/choking/coughing!

This has not stopped me from buying cigars for friends. In fact, I have a box of Dominican's I picked up over the holidays already packed in my suitcase to give to Fernando when I see him at SHOT show on Thursday.
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Old 01-09-2007, 09:20 PM   #20
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Ahhhhh yes, speaking of cigars and Bigg Bosss Mann. He will finally be receiving a long awaited package from me before this year's Super Bowl.

As for the Cigar.com portal, yes, but I thought something had by now been worked out so that there was at least some sort of mention somewhere along the way about being hosted by AmBack.
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