I was unable to get on here at AmBack until just a little while ago. At first I skimmed this post quickly, and seeing Mike's explanation, had to go on to other duties, not internet related.
I'm glad to see the thread has been clarified/cooled down. I knew when I saw the initial post that it wasn't necessarily coming from Marine1's ideology, but as though he were a news anchor.
About Marine1 himself, I'm glad to see Mike stepped up, and he knows Marine1 FAR better than I, but I just wanted to say that I do know him well enough to state for a fact that he is a stand up guy when it comes to what's truly important in life.
As for the author of the article Marine1 posted, or anyone who might come here into the forums to either present, provoke, prod or infiltrate and inflame, this article, and this thread might be a good time for us to think about how we would tackle such a debate.
Since engaging in the type of behavior that caused Mike to type in the admonishment about possibly closing the thread is not allowed, let's think a bit. We know AmBack runs a tight ship, and that's one thing we love about it here. We all know where to go if we want the let down our hair and act as though it were a rather rough edged, but still civil club, kind of like a lot of Irish neighborhood pubs.
There are still such places in NYC, and a few more in Bahstin, where one can see two 6'6" Irish cousins punch each other out, threaten to burn down each other's homes, threaten to have at each other's wives, and 15 minutes later, they're brushing dirt off each other, handing back each other's teeth, buying each other a beer, putting their arms around each other, and telling each other how much they love the other guy. And speaking of which, how bad would you want to punch me out if I had said "each other" again? :sm_angel:
But perhaps the most interesting thing about this thread is exercise. :? :? Yes, exercise. Now, I had an advantage because Marine1 and I have spoken to each other enough on PM and in other forums for me to know what an OVERALL stand-up guy he is. And whether or not he WAS in agreement with the author of the article, if I had been able to get on line sooner, I would have posted similarly to Mike.
BUT, let's all stop and think a minute. We don't want things to be too "rough edged" here at AmBack, but what to do, what to do? Well, go over to the General Discussion or Political Issues forums, and you'll see many examples of what "Uncle Bill" likes to refer to as "robust discussion."
And that after all, IS what America is all about, no? Yes. It's what the Founding Fathers tried to instill in the spirit of this nation, robust discussion, not fighting, nor even enmity of a non-physical nature. The kind of nation that wouldn't want to fight, but be prepared as well as any other nation, only when it absolutely had to. But they founded a nation where things within the nation should never be settled, nor should any true talking points be made, in a "fighting" fashion.
So, by virtue of the article Marine1 posted, and things that are posted in General Discussion every day, we can see that our beloved personal freedoms are being eroded every day.
Is there ANYTHING we can do, other than flaming, shouting, punching the walls, punching someone else, or just running away? Since there's "no where to run to, nowhere to hide," can we marshall any of our energies as cigar smokers and citizens of America to either combat this menace, or at least engage in "robust discussion" with true knowledge, and talking points formulated on that knowledge, and done so in a fluid and non-emotional fashion?
We can certainly try. Firstly, let's go back to a point that I and others have made in past discussions. We can point out that commercially produced cigarettes are not true tobacco products and therefore, legal maneuvers aimed against the cigarette industry, should not be aimed against tobacco producers worldwide, such as those who funnel their tobacco into the making of premium, hand rolled cigars.
We could also point out studies that show SANE cigar smoking (NOT like David Letterman :mrgreen: ), is something that has been proven to have little to no deleterious health effects. Let me point out that the studies I'm referring to are those where two to three Churchill sized cigars a day were being smoked. That's STILL a lot of cigar smoking, and if it takes two or three Churchills a day before certain health risks even begin to kick in at low percentages of incidence, you're having a lot of cigar smoking fun. We have the "we don't inhale" and "there are no harmful chemical additives in cigars" talking points as well.
As cigar smokers, we have a lot of information on our side with which we can come armed to any debate. Win, lose or draw, it's always good to know that you are armed with true knowledge, and have spoken well on behalf of your point of view, with articulation.
One of the hardest things that it has been for me to do in life is learn to be studious, verbally articulate, and come up with cogent ways of verbally explaining certain points of view that I have. I want communication to be easy, when I know I'm right about something I just want people to accept it and move on. I don't like explaining myself to people, and when I'm forced to, I often see it as tiresome and non-productive.
I used to become emotional, frustrated, and even back in my liberal NYC lefty days, engage in the same type of slogan using, name calling stuff that the current president is by now all too used to. I'm not talking about the good natured, but edgy satire, I'm talking about the stuff like "the only good Republican is a dead Republican" kind of stuff.
Since my spiritual beliefs won't permit me to engage in that sort of hard core, offputting kind of debate, which does nothing to enrich, edify or promote real peace and understanding, I've been forced to at least become somewhat proficient in verbal explanations regarding certain points of view. It has been tiresome and at many times seemingly pointless, but I have learned quite a bit about life and myself, and also found that I have become even more successful in certain social situations. Even recently, when a best friend, someone I've known for 35 years, engaged in an endless menu of "stupid schmuck" and "moron" involving a discussion that he forced upon me, I emerged in a way that was surprising even to myself.
No, my friend still considers me to be a stupid schmuck and a moron regarding my world view, and many social views, but I held up well to the pounding, and did so without resorting to any of my old ways, although if there were a time I could have, that would have been it. There have been quite a few of those times over the past few years, and I always look upon them as exercise. As someone who accepted the Bible 22 years ago, I often look to what Jesus and the early apostles suffered, for something that was no more than a point of view and a way of life really, because they were basically "live and let live kind of people," they just had some good news they wanted to tell a lot of other people.
As for the ways in which each one of us weathers the brunt of social change and opposing opinions, that's a personal thing. Whoever or whatever your "center" is, this thread can serve as an example of how we can all polish certain tools we all possess within our respective intellects, and utilize those tools in a comprehensive, non-combative fashion to either engage in debate or even wield social power.
No argument which is formulated with anything but the facts spoken in a well formed, even-tempered fashion can hope to stand, whether against an opposing argument or overwhelming social change. Social change is accomplished either by overwhelming your opponent with better arguments, even in the face of wrong-minded social views, or by force. We here at AmBack want everyone to learn to turn our swords into plowshares and our spears into pruning hooks. That way we can harvest the best of what our minds have to offer, and put that in to place in our respective corners of society, like letters to town officials, congresspeople, even the president.
Lastly, I can offer powerful examples from my own life. For the past six years, I have been mired in personal difficulties, mainly of the health and financial variety. On many occasions, it was my ability to read well, write well, and perform basic arithmetic very well, that helped save me. Thankfully, these skills were put to use with only a modicum of verbalization, most of the expression being done by absorbing the gist of certain mailings, and appealing to certain authorities by being able to type very professional, well expressed letters.
Making points in an even keeled fashion can wield enormous power in American society, even today in this age of political correctness, and whether your forte is the spoken word or the written/typed word, we can all set about digging deep into our skills to exercise that ability. Marine1's post and some of the subsequent replies helped bring that to light, and prompted me to point out those skills here.
The abovementioned friend of mine has a much more powerful intellect than I, and is a man of consummate knowledge. There's no way I could possibly ever accumulate the knowledge that he has, let alone debate with him. But through the defeaning crescendo of "stupid schmuck" and "morons," unlike the past, I never once lost my cool or my ability to think clearly enough to formulate all my talking points in a completely unemotional fashion. I also got him to agree with one of my bottom line points, something he's agreed with a ton of times in the past.
This is one of my problems, people who have the same conversation for years at a time. This guy has spent the period from the last few months prior to the 2000 election through this entire administration bashing me around the stadium for voting for Dubya, and has also been railing against capitalism for at least the past three decades. Of the 35 years I've known him, I've known him increasingly well for the past 30 years, and yes, the same conversation for over 30 years.
As much as that sucks, we have to learn to deal with all types in this world, especially when it comes to those we love, even if they are overbearing pricks. I am not much when it comes to the spoken word, and I don't really care to be around overbearing pricks. When an overbearing prick is one of your best friends, sometimes it behooves you to exercise certain muscles you hate to use. In this case, it was learning to connect my brain to a higher level of studiousness, and eventually to my mouth. That was exceedingly hard. If I can do it, anyone can. :thumbsup: :wine: