Help me pick a Rye

[zandor]

I'm not sure I've ever had a Rye Whiskey. Up until recently I've mostly been a Single Malt Scotch & Cognac guy, but lately I've been getting into Bourbon. I'm not sure if I prefer Scotch or Bourbon at this point, though lately I've mostly been reaching for the Bourbon. That might jut be because it's "new" though.
Now I'm looking for a Rye, and the selection seems pretty limited at the local big liquor store. Here's a list of what they've got:

Hirch Canadian Rye 8yo $29
Hirch Canadian Rye 10yo $34
Hirch Canadian Rye 12yo $39
Vintage 21yo $68
Sazerac 6yo $23
Black Maple Hill 18yo $68
Old Overholt $13
Rittenhouse $12
Dickel $19
Wild Turkey Rye $20
Jim Beam Rye $16

Then they've got some more expensive stuff locked in a glass cabinet. Actually, I'm not going to buy one of those $68 ones for my first try either. Anyone have any suggestions for a first Rye? Bloof?

 

[Bloofington]

Go with the Sazerac. Don't know why they're calling it a six year old, since upon its release, it was billed as a seven year old. No matter, it's one of the best bang for the buck whiskeys I've ever had. I've actually been working my way through a bottle for the past two weeks. If you ever get a chance to have the Sazerac 18, by all means, get that. Of the others you listed I wouldn't bother with any, unless they don't have the Sazerac. In that case, I'd take the Old Overholt, then the Rittenhouse or Jim Beam. Forget the rest.

 

[zandor]

Ok, I picked up a bottle of the Sazerac. This stuff seems pretty good. It reminds me of a highland malt more than the bourbons I've tried so far, probably because it doesn't have that sweet characteristic the bourbons do. I'll see how it goes with a cigar after dinner.

Somehow I missed this last time I was in, but they also have Michter's Rye. Undated for $30 & 10yo for $60. Any idea if this stuff is any good?

 

[Bloofington]

I do not like the Michter's U.S. 1 Rye, and will never buy it again. It's flavorless. I've read some good things here and there about the ten year old, but mostly heard and read indifferent things. I was suspicious from the time I first heard of this brand, because it came about through a bunch of people buying name rights.

Michter's Distillery, formerly a Pennsylvania based operation, closed in 1990, and used to make the famous Hirsch 16 and 20 year old bourbons. A few years ago, a group of people, no doubt looking to capitalize on name recognition, bought the name rights. They have no relationship to the old Michter's Distillery, and do not distill whiskey. They buy up whiskey that's either not wanted, didn't get sold to someone who backed out of a distribution agreement, or stuff that's just gotten passed over through the years. They slap their own label on the whiskey, and presto, just because it's got a famous name from way back, people line up to buy overpriced crap.

The practice of buying up whiskey that was not distilled by the name on the label is actually quite common. It's one thing to make up a silly name, or a name that sounds rich in culture and history. It's quite another to buy the rights to an actual famous name, get some whiskey no one wants, and slap that famous name label on it. I don't think much of such folks. Make up your own name, instead of capitalizing on a name that's in the public domain because the people are dead and the name rights are public property.

Michter's is not a big name among hard core whiskey connoisseurs. There's not a whole lot of great rye around. If you check my Top 10, you'll see I don't even recommend going below No. 7, and two of the top seven are no longer available.

 

[zandor]

I read about the dead Mitcher's distillery last night. No more pot still? *sniff*. I knew that stuff was made in Kentucky & wasn't the same stuff, I was just wondering if it was any good.

I'm guessing those "dead" ones are the Van Winkles? I'm finding the state of Rye rather sad. This Sazerac 6yo is really quite good, and I'd like to try some more kinds.

As for the 6yo Sazerac vs. the 7yo you've got, the one I have is a special bottling brought to me by the local jumbo sized liquor store chain, Binnys. They have a habit of buying casks and having them bottled under the maker's name with a "Binnys Special Bottling" sticker stuck under the label. So the 6yo I've got isn't a market release, it's a single cask Binny's special. Apparently having 18 jumbo sized stores scattered around the Chicago market gives them the size to pull this off.

This is the second one of these Binny's specials I've bought, the first being an 18yo Elijah Craig single barrel Bourbon. I'm starting to wonder if they're picking good barrels instead of just buying some random ones, because they're both wonderful.

They also have a few old Ryes- Rittenhouse 21yo for $150, Classic Cask 21yo for $90, and A.H. Hirsch 21yo Rye for $110. I wonder if perhaps the A. H. Hirsch might be stock from the old Mitcher's distillery? If I get into one of my top choice law schools or get a nice scholarship offer I'll have to splurge on something, and I'm thinking it'll be one of these or the A.H. Hirsch 16yo Bourbon. Or maybe both

 

[Bloofington]

The Hirsch Rye is NOT from the old Michter's Distillery, and is a second rate product left over from barrels that were unpicked and subsequently snapped up by the person with the rights to the Hirsch name. If you ever got a bottle of the Hirsch rye, or perhaps even in the ad, you'll notice it says Hirsch, and then the small "tm" to denote that the Hirsch name is a trademark.

There are a lot of places, like Sam's, as well as Binny's etal, that get to pick their own barrels from whiskeys that otherwise are for market release. They are just allowed to pick the ones they like the best, because of the favorable relationship they may have with the distillery. Just because Binny's or someone else gets to pick their own "special" barrels does not mean that the whiskey in it is not part of the overall allotment for the market. It just means that Binny's is one of a number of purveyors that have the right to walk in and choose their own barrels from time to time, rather than just receiving what the company decides to send them. That leaves me suspicious of the six year statement on the Sazerac that Binny's is selling, but okay, if they say so.

If you're going to get The Classic Cask 21 year old, I'd suggest checking with LeNell's. They have a better price, and are the only place still charging remotely near what the true original price was. The stuff came out a few years ago, on the heels of the release of the 22 year old, which disappeared within about 15 minutes, largely because of me. The 21 year old actually came out about the same time, but the 22 was snapped up quickly. I was advised by my whiskey sensei during the 22's release that it would be short, so I got as much as I could. I was also advised that the 21's price would be going sky-high, which it did, right after the 22 year old disappeared.

As for the Rittenhouse 21, why waste your money? You really going to pay a yard and a half for that? Shopper's Vineyard has it for 20 bucks less if you're really going to do it. But unless you have Trump's money, and can afford to throw away money on something that just got a label slapped on it because they couldn't find anyone else to take it, do you want to chance it? A whiskey's got to be really, really good to be worth that much, especially for someone who's not Trump or Soros.

There's a "boom" of sorts going on in the American whiskey business, and I'd caution everyone to hold their horses, especially when it comes to the high-priced stuff. P.T. Barnum has come a callin' folks. Don't live up to his adage.

 

[Bloofington]

By the way, Elijah Craig 18 is a well known product that's been around for a long time. If you like the barrels Binny's is getting, that's great. They have a great whiskey guy from what I've heard, a fairly new person if I'm not mistaken, just come in about a year or so ago, and I hear the guy is fantastic. Some people are able to work their magic with the distilleries to keep picking their own barrels, and are great at picking, hence the bolstering of a reputation already high, as Binny's is, in the world of spirits. Binny's has been my favorite web site for years, and is likely to stay that way.

As for the Hirsch 16 year old bourbon, I would advise you not to buy it. It is priced FAR higher than a few years ago, and there are caveats to buying any more. I'll mention them when I have more time, if you can't find my admonitions on another post here. Try a search of the Spirits forum.

 

[Bloofington]

In doing quite a bit of on line research regarding the true age of the new, younger Sazerac Rye, also known as "Baby Saz" as respects its comparison to the well-established 18 year old stablemate, I can only find references to it being six years old. It was originally released with a billing that it had been aged for seven years. It could be that subsequent barrels from which to pick and bottle from are only six years old. At any rate, the bottle I'm working my way through now, yes, RIGHT now, on an early Saturday afternoon, is JUST fine, no matter how young it is. :thumbsup: :mrgreen:

And NO, I'm not working my way through the BOTTLE, just the usual two shot glass, SLOWLY and YES, I had a good, hearty breakfast beforehand. :sm_angel:

 

[zandor]

Wow. Now that's what I call a brain dump. Thanks for the info. I'm a relative newbie as far as American whiskey goes, so I appreciate any advice I can pick up.

Let's hope the recent release of the baby Saz at 6 years old doesn't mean that the 7yo stock has run out, but rather that they decided the 6yo was ready and are saving the rest of the older stock for a future release at 10-18 years.

I did a little research on the A.H. Hirsch 21yo. I found several articles on the net indicating it's from the same batch of barrels that Van Winkle bottled as thier Family Reserve 13yo. Basically Van Winkle bought half the barrels and Hirsch got the other half.
Have you tried the A.H. Hirsch 21yo? From what I've gathered from your other posts the Van Winkle was bottled with whiskey casked at the same time in successive years but still under a 13yo label. Assuming it really is from the same batch of barrels, I'd expect the A.H. Hirsch to be very similar to the last Van Winkle you got before the "F" release when it was mixed with something else.

 

[Bloofington]

Well, well, well, zandor, zandor, zandor, . . .

I am old and a dumb blond(e), and therefore I am slow. No, I'm not slow because I'm old, I'm slow because I am blond. You certainly do provide thought provoking and swift feedback.

Here's a link from a post I put up about the Hirsch 13 rye nearly three years ago. Notice the trademark thingy, therefore not being made by the Hirsch family at Michter's Distillery, just whiskey that someone with the rights to the Hirsch name took a fancy to, bought and slapped the Hirsch name on. In subsequent discussions held with an "unnamed semi-industry source" I found that indeed, it was Van Winkle stock, inferior, or at least not up to the standards they would want to put their name on, but were only too happy to sell to someone else.

Notice the suspicion(s) in my original review. Yup, I was right, and that was when I was FAR more ignorant than I am now, and yes, I'm still ignorant compared to my Whiskey Sensei. But put two and two together, or in this case, 95.6, 13 and Lawrenceburg, KY and I got my answer before he gave it to me. So, I wouldn't try Hirsch 21 rye for fifty bucks a bottle, because I'm never going to buy anything with the Hirsch name again. It has gotten a reputation in my house (me, Maxine the Hippo Cat and the Burmese Python) for being overpriced, "dumped" whiskey with a fancy name that some lucky stiff has the rights to.

When I say "dumped" whiskey, I don't mean dumped as in the production sense, I mean sold off by someone who was only too happy to get rid of it.

http://ambackforum.com/viewtopic.php?t= ... irsch++rye

 

[Bloofington]

Regarding the Sazerac rye, the younger version, it's not a matter of having some barrels that are seven years old, and others that are only six, but more like a confusion as to how old the whiskey actually is. In researching this a little further, I have found a statement that refers to "seven summers." Of course, when it was released, I was quite sure that I read certain items that made mention of it being seven years old.

It should be remembered that if a whiskey ages to six years and 364 days, it cannot be called "seven" years old. It may be that after it was released, corrections were made to the age based on distilling and bottling dates. I'm not sure, and in the long run, while good conversation fodder, it's not really important, because the whiskey is just pretty good and a pretty good bargain, and that's what's important.