# Cuban Maduro?



## Dog Rockets (Oct 1, 2008)

So this might be a dumb question, but I'm definitely a noob when it comes to Cuban cigars - why the lack of love for Maduro wrappers? I realize that the Cubans have been at this for a while and are darn good at what they do, but you'd think they'd take more notice of the huge number of very tasty non-Cuban maduro cigars out there. Especially when the "traditional" non-cuban cigar makers like Fuente and Padron are turning out simply fantastic maduros!

Unless I'm simply not aware (which is entirely possible, and I'd really like to know if I am) the only Cuban maduro out there is the Cohiba. Why not expand this to other lines? I really like the flavors a good maduro wrapper brings to a cigar and you'd expect that the Cubans would be all over something that would emphasize their knowledge of growing/fermenting superior tobacco.

So is the lack of maduro Cubans due to a lack of demand, strict adherence to tradition, lack of innovation among producers who may not be well compensated for innovative products (being Communist and all) or something else?

I suppose when you get down to it, the Cuban cigar industry isn't exactly threatened by the non-Cuban industry, so why bother? It just seems like this would be a natural way to expand their product offerings and appeal to even more customers. I know I'd be more likely to take the risk of acquiring said cigars if I could get some Cuban maddies that didn't cost something like $500 a box.

Thoughts?


----------



## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

This site is a must if your curious as to whats in production.

http://www.cubancigarwebsite.com/info-tobacco.htm
:rockon:


----------



## Magnate (Nov 27, 2009)

It's been my understanding that Cuba sells all the cigars they make each year... so, setting some aside for 5 years would reduce revenues.


----------



## Dog Rockets (Oct 1, 2008)

Magnate said:


> It's been my understanding that Cuba sells all the cigars they make each year... so, setting some aside for 5 years would reduce revenues.


I was thinking along similar lines as well. Why tie up resources when you can ship now?

However, I've read that Cuba's cigar exports have fallen substantially in the last year or so with the global depression. If this is true, it will be interesting to see if in five or so years from now we all of a sudden have a bunch of Cuban maduros on the market as a way to make use of all the stockpiled tobacco. If you can't ship it now, might as well make it into something you could potentially sell at a higher price later, especially if the embargo is lifted between now and then.


----------



## x man (Oct 21, 2009)

The Cubans have been making cigars a long time.
All the Limitadas have 2 yr old wrappers, if you will notice
they are darker than the usual cuban wraps.
Personally, i dont see a need for cuban maduro. I like Cohiba, 
but not in maduro. Buy then this is just my preferences.


----------



## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

x man said:


> The Cubans have been making cigars a long time.
> All the Limitadas have 2 yr old wrappers, if you will notice
> they are darker than the usual cuban wraps.
> Personally, i dont see a need for cuban maduro. I like Cohiba,
> but not in maduro. Buy then this is just my preferences.


+1 couldn't have said it better. :spider:I have heard those Cohiba Maduro 5 referred to as Manuro's. I guess a slang for Manuremg: in any event i don't care for them one bit. op2:


----------



## x man (Oct 21, 2009)

TonyBrooklyn said:


> +1 couldn't have said it better. :spider:I have heard those Cohiba Maduro 5 referred to as Manuro's. I guess a slang for Manuremg: in any event i don't care for them one bit. op2:


Manuro, lmao. Almost as funny as Shmuckling.


----------



## Habanolover (Feb 22, 2006)

x man said:


> The Cubans have been making cigars a long time.
> All the Limitadas have 2 yr old wrappers, if you will notice
> they are darker than the usual cuban wraps.
> Personally, i dont see a need for cuban maduro. I like Cohiba,
> but not in maduro. Buy then this is just my preferences.





TonyBrooklyn said:


> +1 couldn't have said it better. :spider:I have heard those Cohiba Maduro 5 referred to as Manuro's. I guess a slang for Manuremg: in any event i don't care for them one bit. op2:


I have a feeling you guys are going to change your mind in about 7 - 10 years. :smile:


----------



## Snake Hips (May 30, 2008)

The main issue is that it's not traditional. "Maduro" means something different in Cuba; in Cuba, "maduro" just refers to a shade of wrapper color, one of 64. By the Cuban definition/understanding, they've been producing "maduros" forever. Old texts refer to the preference for "black" and/or "oscuro" cigars at the beginning of the 20th Century, for example. The non-Cuban industry developed the maduro-style of wrapper production to try to capture the strength and earthy flavor Cuban tobacco was primarily known for at the time immediately after the revolution, and in time perfected it as an actual style, unique to them. Because of the non-Cuban development of the word "maduro" and the non-Cuban development of the actual maduro production method, the Cubans never picked it up. They're very prideful and stubborn people as far as their traditions go, so they only use the maduro method on cigars meant to appeal to Americans (Cohibas and Ediciones Limitadas). Their customer base is about as expansive as it can get, so they don't bother much with appealing to specific tastes; in every country where they're legally sold, they outsell all competition by a ridiculous margin - from a business perspective, developing a new untraditional production method that requires time and new expertise, training, blend development and infrastructure for a specific customer base isn't necessary or terribly attractive, and is understandably unappealing.


----------



## Nickerson (Mar 19, 2009)

I've got a couple Cohiba Genio Maduro 5 that I've had for 3 years. I haven't smoked one yet but they do look, smell and feel great. I wish they were the Secretos size. :"(


----------



## Scardinoz (Mar 15, 2010)

From what I understand - and I could be quite wrong - Cuba's production is running at about 99%-100% right now as it is. If the Chief Executive Dictator decides they need to appeal to a new customer base, will we see quality suffer with increased production like during the cigar boom?


----------



## Mante (Dec 25, 2009)

Habanolover said:


> I have a feeling you guys are going to change your mind in about 7 - 10 years. :smile:


I have the same feeling. :clap2::mrgreen:


----------



## smelvis (Sep 7, 2009)

Tashaz said:


> I have the same feeling. :clap2::mrgreen:


Mine are tasting so good if i could afford it they would be a much more regular thing, short of a few real old Cohibas I have not tasted better!!! :mrgreen:


----------



## jessejava187 (Aug 25, 2009)

smelvis said:


> Mine are tasting so good if i could afford it they would be a much more regular thing, short of a few real old Cohibas I have not tasted better!!! :mrgreen:


 You know how i feel about those cohibas Dave, hands down One of the top 3 smokes and at 15 or so a pop to spendy for a every day smoke, but the best 15 youll spend in your life


----------



## Snake Hips (May 30, 2008)

Scardinoz said:


> From what I understand - and I could be quite wrong - Cuba's production is running at about 99%-100% right now as it is. If the Chief Executive Dictator decides they need to appeal to a new customer base, will we see quality suffer with increased production like during the cigar boom?


No, we wouldn't. Cuba is not running at "capacity" at all. They have plenty of room to expand production. They have many fields tested and ready to plant when/if needed, the open factories aren't nearly fully staffed and there are other factories not in use but that have been refurbished and are ready to go. In other words they're prepared for a huge upheaval like the opening of the American market, so an appeal to a new customer base wouldn't cause any kind of disruption in quality. Over the last decade they've done nothing _but_ appeal to new customer bases; they've discontinued dozens of cigars, added some more, introduced exclusive after exclusive, introduced new lines and new vitolas, emphasized fat-n'-short cigars according to market trends...it's just a matter of packaging and cigar molds and roller training.


----------



## x man (Oct 21, 2009)

Snake Hips said:


> No, we wouldn't. Cuba is not running at "capacity" at all. They have plenty of room to expand production. They have many fields tested and ready to plant when/if needed, the open factories aren't nearly fully staffed and there are other factories not in use but that have been refurbished and are ready to go. In other words they're prepared for a huge upheaval like the opening of the American market, so an appeal to a new customer base wouldn't cause any kind of disruption in quality. Over the last decade they've done nothing _but_ appeal to new customer bases; they've discontinued dozens of cigars, added some more, introduced exclusive after exclusive, introduced new lines and new vitolas, emphasized fat-n'-short cigars according to market trends...it's just a matter of packaging and cigar molds and roller training.


X ACTLY


----------



## Dog Rockets (Oct 1, 2008)

Snake Hips said:


> No, we wouldn't. Cuba is not running at "capacity" at all. They have plenty of room to expand production. They have many fields tested and ready to plant when/if needed, the open factories aren't nearly fully staffed and there are other factories not in use but that have been refurbished and are ready to go. In other words they're prepared for a huge upheaval like the opening of the American market, so an appeal to a new customer base wouldn't cause any kind of disruption in quality. Over the last decade they've done nothing _but_ appeal to new customer bases; they've discontinued dozens of cigars, added some more, introduced exclusive after exclusive, introduced new lines and new vitolas, emphasized fat-n'-short cigars according to market trends...it's just a matter of packaging and cigar molds and roller training.


Not only that, but there's a huge number of younger cigar smokers who only know non-cuban cigars. For me, a Nicaraguan maduro, like the Oliva V Maduro or any Padron maduro, marks the closest thing to heaven on earth that I've ever encountered. Well, at least in a cigar that is!

I don't know what industries ya'll work in, but in mine (computer software) the rule is innovate or die. So if the Cubans _*aren't*_ developing more maduros for the eventual end of the embargo, I think they are making a huge mistake. I think the US is still the single largest cigar market in the world, so doing anything you can to appeal to it is just smart business. That and I'm dreaming of a Padron Cuban Maduro!


----------



## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

Dog Rockets said:


> Not only that, but there's a huge number of younger cigar smokers who only know non-cuban cigars. For me, a Nicaraguan maduro, like the Oliva V Maduro or any Padron maduro, marks the closest thing to heaven on earth that I've ever encountered. Well, at least in a cigar that is!
> 
> I don't know what industries ya'll work in, but in mine (computer software) the rule is innovate or die. So if the Cubans _*aren't*_ developing more maduros for the eventual end of the embargo, I think they are making a huge mistake. I think the US is still the single largest cigar market in the world, so doing anything you can to appeal to it is just smart business. That and I'm dreaming of a Padron Cuban Maduro!


All the El'S are as close to a Maduro as your gonna get. With the exception of the Cohiba Maduro 5. As far as the Cubans making mistakes. I agree they make plenty of mistakes. But not when it comes to cigars.:ear:


----------



## Habanolover (Feb 22, 2006)

I have read and been told by people a lot more knowledgeable than me that even with the embargo that N. America is still the largest market in the world for Cuban cigars. I think the Cubans realize that they make the best cigars in the world and they are pretty secure in the fact that they will still outsell all others as long as they make a quality product.

If you look at recent Habanos productions and deletions you will see that they are being geared towards the American market. I feel that this is the main reason they are introducing all of these huge RG smokes and discontinuing so many of the smaller ones. They know the average American believes that bigger is better.


----------



## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

Habanolover said:


> I have read and been told by people a lot more knowledgeable than me that even with the embargo that N. America is still the largest market in the world for Cuban cigars. I think the Cubans realize that they make the best cigars in the world and they are pretty secure in the fact that they will still outsell all others as long as they make a quality product.
> 
> If you look at recent Habanos productions and deletions you will see that they are being geared towards the American market. I feel that this is the main reason they are introducing all of these huge RG smokes and discontinuing so many of the smaller ones. They know the average American believes that bigger is better.


You know Donnie America was once the richest country in the world. Then i saw her slip to the top 10. Now she is around #13 or 15 still in the top twenty. If she does not recover to previous levels. I have to wonder if the Cubans will still aim towards her with their products.:noidea:


----------



## Scardinoz (Mar 15, 2010)

Habanolover said:


> I have read and been told by people a lot more knowledgeable than me that even with the embargo that N. America is still the largest market in the world for Cuban cigars.


The Cuban cigar represents the sort of opulence that will never go out of style in America. The fact that it is contraband only adds exclusivity to luxury.

Cuban maduros are definitely a way of targeting the American market and, while I have yet to have one, it is certainly what Cuba needs to be producing. Even if the maduros aren't their best offerings, it still needs to be in their offerings even if only to serve as initiation for those who have cut their teeth on non-cubans.


----------



## Dog Rockets (Oct 1, 2008)

Scardinoz said:


> The Cuban cigar represents the sort of opulence that will never go out of style in America. The fact that it is contraband only adds exclusivity to luxury.
> 
> Cuban maduros are definitely a way of targeting the American market and, while I have yet to have one, it is certainly what Cuba needs to be producing. Even if the maduros aren't their best offerings, it still needs to be in their offerings even if only to serve as initiation for those who have cut their teeth on non-cubans.


That is definitely part of my point. I've been enjoying NC cigars for a couple years now and love, LOVE high end maduros. While Cubans may be considered the best, it is usually bad business to tell the customer that their tastes are wrong. They may well be, but if you want to move product, you might want to consider accommodating them and perhaps upselling them in the future.


----------



## bpegler (Mar 30, 2006)

I think the Cohiba Maduros are too sweet now but will really improve. I've got a decent investment of these put away. In general though I'm not convinced that the wrapper is as important as the binder and filler in the taste of the cigar. But it looks cool...


----------



## Snake Hips (May 30, 2008)

TonyBrooklyn said:


> You know Donnie America was once the richest country in the world. Then i saw her slip to the top 10. Now she is around #13 or 15 still in the top twenty. If she does not recover to previous levels. I have to wonder if the Cubans will still aim towards her with their products.:noidea:


As Habanolover said, the U.S., regardless of its place among wealthy countries, is the single largest market for Cuban cigars, even with the embargo. The Cubans, over the last decade, have geared their entire focus toward American cigar trends and tastes, and again, this is with the embargo. It's a complete given that the Cubans do aim toward her with their products as we speak and will do so for the foreseeable future. Regardless of America's "comparative" wealth, it has some of the most comparatively lenient taxes in the world, and because of that, it remains the single largest market in the world for cigars from any country.

As to other points about maduros, I disagree that Cuba should get into maduro production for American interests. The way the Cuban cigar industry is set up, they don't need maduros, or any variation on their blends - each vitola is a unique cigar, not a variation on a blend or line. Americans seeking Cuban cigars, even the uninformed ones who buy counterfeits, don't make any qualms about the wrapper. If Americans cared about Cubans having maduro options, counterfeiters would be making "maduro" "Habanos" in Mexico. But they don't, and Americans buying real Habanos, and making America the largest market for them in the process, are not holding back because of their preference for maduros in non-Cubans. Habanos are plenty satisfying to Americans without wrapper manipulation. With this, I don't see a reason for Cuba to implement any [more] untraditional practices and offerings; they've already sacrificed huge swathes of their beloved tradition and history on the altar of the American market, and I'd like the damage to be contained as much as possible, personally.


----------



## Habanolover (Feb 22, 2006)

Snake Hips said:


> As Habanolover said, the U.S., regardless of its place among wealthy countries, is the single largest market for Cuban cigars, even with the embargo. The Cubans, over the last decade, have geared their entire focus toward American cigar trends and tastes, and again, this is with the embargo. It's a complete given that the Cubans do aim toward her with their products as we speak and will do so for the foreseeable future. Regardless of America's "comparative" wealth, it has some of the most comparatively lenient taxes in the world, and because of that, it remains the single largest market in the world for cigars from any country.
> 
> As to other points about maduros, I disagree that Cuba should get into maduro production for American interests. The way the Cuban cigar industry is set up, they don't need maduros, or any variation on their blends - each vitola is a unique cigar, not a variation on a blend or line. Americans seeking Cuban cigars, even the uninformed ones who buy counterfeits, don't make any qualms about the wrapper. If Americans cared about Cubans having maduro options, counterfeiters would be making "maduro" "Habanos" in Mexico. But they don't, and Americans buying real Habanos, and making America the largest market for them in the process, are not holding back because of their preference for maduros in non-Cubans. Habanos are plenty satisfying to Americans without wrapper manipulation. With this, I don't see a reason for Cuba to implement any [more] untraditional practices and offerings; *they've already sacrificed huge swathes of their beloved tradition and history on the altar of the American market, and I'd like the damage to be contained as much as possible, personally.*


Well stated brother! :tu


----------



## Snake Hips (May 30, 2008)

Habanolover said:


> Well stated brother! :tu


It's an honor to have someone like you think so


----------



## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

Snake Hips said:


> As Habanolover said, the U.S., regardless of its place among wealthy countries, is the single largest market for Cuban cigars, even with the embargo. The Cubans, over the last decade, have geared their entire focus toward American cigar trends and tastes, and again, this is with the embargo. It's a complete given that the Cubans do aim toward her with their products as we speak and will do so for the foreseeable future. Regardless of America's "comparative" wealth, it has some of the most comparatively lenient taxes in the world, and because of that, it remains the single largest market in the world for cigars from any country.
> 
> As to other points about maduros, I disagree that Cuba should get into maduro production for American interests. The way the Cuban cigar industry is set up, they don't need maduros, or any variation on their blends - each vitola is a unique cigar, not a variation on a blend or line. Americans seeking Cuban cigars, even the uninformed ones who buy counterfeits, don't make any qualms about the wrapper. If Americans cared about Cubans having maduro options, counterfeiters would be making "maduro" "Habanos" in Mexico. But they don't, and Americans buying real Habanos, and making America the largest market for them in the process, are not holding back because of their preference for maduros in non-Cubans. Habanos are plenty satisfying to Americans without wrapper manipulation. With this, I don't see a reason for Cuba to implement any [more] untraditional practices and offerings; they've already sacrificed huge swathes of their beloved tradition and history on the altar of the American market, and I'd like the damage to be contained as much as possible, personally.


I agree Snake or is it Mr.Hips lol.:lol:
I think Cuban cigars offer many different flavors in fact i personally do not care for darker maduro wrappers in regular production. I do like to see them on the El's though as a change of pace. I love Cohiba's but don't care for the Maduro 5 in much the same way i did not care for the Sublimes. Or the Cohiba Piramides i think the flavor was very un Cohiba like and detracted from the cigar rather than augment it. But that's just me, on the other hand i did like a Maduro wrapper on a Non Cuban cigar. I always thought the Maduro wrapper added a dimension to an otherwise un eventful cigar. But hey that's just me.:yo:


----------



## Scardinoz (Mar 15, 2010)

TonyBrooklyn said:


> But that's just me, on the other hand i did like a Maduro wrapper on a Non Cuban cigar. I always thought the Maduro wrapper added a dimension to an otherwise un eventful cigar.


Absolutely. I think maduros will probably help NC puffers connect and cross over to Cubans more easily.

Does it step on tradition a bit? Yes, but, right or wrong, business typically has little regard for tradition.


----------



## Frinkiac7 (Dec 12, 2008)

I think part of it is that the Cubans will do "maduro" right, i.e. age the wrapper for years to get a true, proper maduro leaf instead of giving it the heat treatment to make it mature faster, or (God forbid) paint it. A lot of NCs give their maduros a little extra oomph to speed along the process, but if the Cohiba Maduro story is to be believed, the wrapper was given the full five years of age to get it that way. As has already been pointed out, Cubans don't usually give their tobaccos extra special rounds of aging for the purpose of getting bona fide maduro wrappers.


----------



## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

Frinkiac7 said:


> I think part of it is that the Cubans will do "maduro" right, i.e. age the wrapper for years to get a true, proper maduro leaf instead of giving it the heat treatment to make it mature faster, or (God forbid) paint it. A lot of NCs give their maduros a little extra oomph to speed along the process, but if the Cohiba Maduro story is to be believed, the wrapper was given the full five years of age to get it that way. As has already been pointed out, Cubans don't usually give their tobaccos extra special rounds of aging for the purpose of getting bona fide maduro wrappers.


That's true thy also ferment their tobacco at much lower temps than the N.C manufacturers do.


----------



## Snake Hips (May 30, 2008)

On top of my above appeal that Cuban maduros are clearly unnecessary for attracting Americans, my thing is that making maduros would also be redundant, because Cuba already has maduro cigars - but to them it's just a color classification, not a process. From claro to maduro, there is a large and qualifiable difference in taste in the same vitola. Smoking a claro Punch Double Corona won't yield you at all the same experience as smoking a maduro Punch Double Corona from the same year, and the maduro one has the same character difference ascribed to maduro versions of non-Cuban cigars. So if they wanted to do "maduro" cigars for Americans, all they would have to do is perhaps return to the practice of marking the wrapper shade on the bottom of the box.

If Cuba thought Americans were at all concerned about maduro options with Habanos, we would have seen them five years ago, or let's just say we would have seen plenty by now, methinks.


----------



## x man (Oct 21, 2009)

Allow me a minute here. 
I know ive been smokin CC`s for 17 yrs.
In 2000 when the 1st LE`s were released, 
the story Habanos S.E. issued was, ALL L.E. WRAPPER LEAF
IS AGED 2 YRS, THIS IS AS CLOSE TO A MADURO AS WE
WANT TO BE.
Then the Cohiba maddies showed up as a n xperiment.
They sell well, but not enough it seems for more maduro cc`s.
Just my 2 pesos.


----------



## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

x man said:


> Allow me a minute here.
> I know ive been smokin CC`s for 17 yrs.
> In 2000 when the 1st LE`s were released,
> the story Habanos S.E. issued was, ALL L.E. WRAPPER LEAF
> ...


I agree x-man and i don't ever think they maduro's that is will sell in a Cuban cigar. Just no need for it really , the Cubans know what they are doing. Oh the Non Cubans come and go. Close outs sales liquidations the e-mails and catalogs are full of it. You never see that with Cuban Cigars things that make you go HMmmmmm!:flypig:


----------

