# What exactly is the "Sick Period"?



## Tampa1257 (Jul 27, 2006)

A couple of years ago, I wrote this about what the "Sick Period" is. What got me thinking about this was the question about why the PSD4's go into this transitional period and how long they stay there. Well, I also believe that it would make for a good discussion and help other Gorillas as well.

Many cigar smokers have commented over the years that some of their cigars have gone into a “sick period”, or in other words that when they smoke the cigar, that the flavors, tastes and complexity has become flat, bland and has some annoying ammonia smell, or in some degree off balance from what the profile of the same cigar smoked like a few short months, weeks or years ago. The discussion of cigars has never before reached the levels that let’s say Wine has, but with the educated level of the cigar aficionados in today’s market, these discussions are quickly and exponentially reaching this educated level. There is no consensus that I know of regarding the “Sick Period”. 

When we explore what happens to cigars as they age, we find that while chemistry plays an important part in this hobby of ours, the general “layman” is not a student of these things, and the understanding of this is often misunderstood. 

When a cigar is rolled, the tobacco has been fermenting or a period of time since it was harvested. Typically it takes a couple of years from harvest before the tobacco is ready to be rolled. Thus, the cigars that are box coded from 2004 are in actually tobacco that was harvested from the 2002 crop. When you consider the major change in blends that occurred with Habanos cigars around 1995; which co-insides with the period that Cuba had a period of Ligero shortage, the flavors of cigars produced during that period were affected. Now also consider this along with the flavor and construction issues of cigars from the late 99-00 period, we now find that with some age and maturation of these cigars, the flavors are beginning to come out and have developed into a pleasant tasting and complex smoking cigar.

Let us take a cigar through its cycle of you will. Once the tobacco has been fermented to the point that it is ready to be rolled into a cigar, it is wetted so that it is pliable enough to be worked and rolled. Once the tobacco is harvested, it is always in a state of fermentation, or for better or worse, aging. It actually never stops the fermentation process or aging. Many cigars that are fresh off the rollers table if smoked immediately even though very tannic and young tasting have a pleasant flavor, but most would agree that a fresh cigar is not extremely complex. This brings up several issues that are scientifically proven. There are three major activities that have a part in the fermentation process of tobacco; they are a. oxygen exposure, b. temperature, c. humidity. The more humid a cigar is, the more the fermentation that is occurring in the tobacco. Thus, the fresher a cigar is from the rollers table, the more that it is subject to higher amounts of fermentation and then takes time to stabilize and become blended to its desired state. The different tobaccos used; weather it is Volado, Seco or Ligero in the filler, binder or wrapper has not had a chance to “marry” and blend together and make the cigar a true tasting Habanos that it will develop into one day in the future. So, now the cigar is rolled and let’s say that it has already gone through the process of color sorting and placed into wheels and gone through the drying rooms and has been boxed for shipment out to the various distributors and thus the retailers for sale to the end user. I have seen available boxes already with early 2005 codes available for purchase. These would IMHO be considered very new and young cigars, which I would not even consider smokable for total enjoyment, but that is another subject, so I will not venture there in this post. 

Some people have experienced smoking cigars that are in a period of flux in the aging process, which has been called the sick period. Many have stated that during this period the cigar will give off an ammonia type smell or flavor, which they associate with the fermentation or aging process. There is IMHO no exact period that the “sick period” can or will occur, but the cigar is always in a constant state of transition while it continues to develop, age and mature. I am a believer that aging is a process that all true lovers of the Habanos leaf will gain better flavors from. If I smoke a cigar and it is off balance, flat or what some call a “sick period”, then I leave the remainder of them alone buried deep in sleep resting in my humidor for some time, because I know that the cigar will change again and become a vibrant superb tasting, complex smoke again if leave them alone over time. I try to smoke the majority of the cigars I smoke with at least 3 years of age from the box code so that the tobacco has had ample time to blend together and stabilize. When I smoke a cigar that has longer aging, such as 5-8 years on them, they have usually been stellar tasting cigars. Smoking young cigars is in my opinion, almost a waste of time and money, but each different cigar smoker needs to make their own judgment and decision about when and how to enjoy their cigars.

Tampa


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## n2advnture (Aug 9, 2004)

Very nice Chuck!

~Mark


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## NCRadioMan (Feb 28, 2005)

n2advnture said:


> Very nice Chuck!
> 
> ~Mark


:tpd: Sick Period 101. This should be a sticky!

:ms NCRM


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## dayplanner (Dec 11, 1997)

Great post!

I hear many people refer to any period where a cigar is significantly "off" -- and that "off" condition is thought to be temporary -- as a "sick" period.

In his book, MRN makes a distinction between cigars that are "sick" and cigars that are said to be in "vacuum" periods.

The _sick_ period -- per MRN -- is different than a _vacuum_ period. The _sick_ period is the period before the _first maturation_ period when ammonias are still strong in a new cigar.

Per MRN, "vacuum" periods occur at different stages in a cigar's development, but are not "sick" periods, persay.

MRN defines the _first vacuum period_ as the period between the _first maturation_ and _second maturation_ -- where some cigars do not develop enough flavor at _first maturation_ to overcome tannic tastes.

MRN defines the _second vacuum period_ as the period between the _second maturation_ and _third maturation_ -- where some cigars do not have enough "woody" or "tannic raw materials" to impress at time of _second maturation_, but have enough cogeners to impress at _third maturation_.

According to MRN, some cigars may not have enough raw materials to achieve _second maturation_ at all.

MRN asserts that some cigars are unfairly judged when they are smoked / reviewed in a "vacuum" period.

------------------------------

This is my paraphrasing and interpretation of information presented by MRN in his book. And although I am inclined to agree with it, I do not know it to be unequivocally true.


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## pnoon (Jun 8, 2005)

Excellent post, Tampa. Thanks.


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## Baric (Jun 14, 2006)

Very informative, thanks for the post, i certainly learnt a few new things and im sure many others will!


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## Ashcan Bill (Jul 29, 2006)

Whoa, great post Tampa.

At what point do you think the fermentation ends? Do you think it continues to some degree into the drying stages?

Some food for thought here.


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## motownflip (Jul 26, 2006)

I have a question. Obviously, cigars are not a new product. Why can't the manufacturer give consumers a certain guideline to go by on when their certain cigar should be at its peak. This shouldn't be extremely hard to do, since great taste could be achieved in a couple years. Kind of like wine I guess. By doing that, I think they could allow consumers to truly enjoy the quality of the cigars that they offer.


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## dvickery (Jan 1, 2000)

motownflip

will try to answer your question(s)...

cuba has no tradition of aging cigars...it is a habit started(and continued) by cigar smokers outside of cuba...the "manufacturers" have no idea how long to age cigars...most cuban people(in a cigar store for example)look at you like you are a bit nuts when you tell them you probably wont smoke them for 5 or 10 years.

when will a "certain cigar be at its peak "??? i honestly believe that a cigar will never reach its peak(if stored properly)...i would not be afraid to age cigars(myself)for 100 years and expect a 100 year old smoke to be better than a 99 year old smoke.

as i have aged more smokes (from young cigars) i have come to believe this.i have never had a cigar(that i have aged from less than a year old)be what i would consider "past its prime".many of these are 10 plus years old now...but super aged(at home)is still a decade or two off.

i still search out older smokes when in an lcdh...but cigars aged on the shelves in cuba dont compare to cigars i have aged the same length of time at home.

sorry tampa for wandering off topic

derrek


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## motownflip (Jul 26, 2006)

dvickery said:


> motownflip
> 
> will try to answer your question(s)...
> 
> ...


I had no idea of this. That answers a lot thanks. And ten years of aging, patience is definetly one of your strengths.


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## RPB67 (Mar 26, 2005)

Very informative Tampa !

Great post !


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## sekoudog (Oct 20, 2005)

Gee, I always thought it was the time between when I placed an order and when I got my wife saw the credit card bill.


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## sekoudog (Oct 20, 2005)

I would like to extend the question of recommendations for peak performance to newbies. Often, I see posts telling newbies to smoke this or that, but rarely are these rec's followed by aging suggestions. I believe that based on the sort of knowledge here that our rec's should be qualified with times for aging or smoking a particular vintage.


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## sekoudog (Oct 20, 2005)

Gee, I always thought it was the time between when I placed an order and when I got my wife saw the credit card bill.


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## motownflip (Jul 26, 2006)

That was funny both times


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## Tampa1257 (Jul 27, 2006)

Ashcan Bill said:


> Whoa, great post Tampa.
> 
> At what point do you think the fermentation ends? Do you think it continues to some degree into the drying stages?
> 
> Some food for thought here.


Ashcan Bill,

As stated in the original post, "There are three major activities that have a part in the fermentation process of tobacco; they are a. oxygen exposure, b. temperature, c. humidity. The more humid a cigar is, the more the fermentation that is occurring in the tobacco.", thus "*Once the tobacco is harvested, it is always in a state of fermentation*, or for better or worse, aging."

I also agree with Derrick, that given a stable, properly temperature controlled and properly humidified environment, I do not believe that cigars will age past their peak. Will they be different? Yes, of course because the different leaves of tobacco have married and blended together in harmony.


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## OpusEx (Oct 31, 2003)

Very healthy discussion! I'd like to make a few comments if I may so that everyone is on the same page.



> When a cigar is rolled, the tobacco has been fermenting or a period of time since it was harvested.


Let's not lead those who may not be as informed to believe that the tobacco has been fermenting the entire time since harvest. It is only fermenting when it is in that stage in Pilones. Typically done twice w/Cohiba being the exception, as it sees a third fermentation.



> Typically it takes a couple of years from harvest before the tobacco is ready to be rolled. Thus, the cigars that are box coded from 2004 are in actually tobacco that was harvested from the 2002 crop.


The leaf being used in any given cigar is probably from multi year crops, as different strains of leaf require different amounts of final stage curing time, which is directly related to the strength of the strain ie. ligero would take the longest amount of time to be usable.



> Let us take a cigar through its cycle of you will. Once the tobacco has been *fermented* (s/b aged) to the point that it is ready to be rolled into a cigar, it is wetted so that it is pliable enough to be worked and rolled. Once the tobacco is harvested, it is always in a state of fermentation *(it is ONLY in the state of fermentation when it is in that state in Pilones (1st fermentation or Burros (2nd fermentation). I only stress this again because I think we need to be careful for those who don't know to not mixup or confuse aging of leaf, which is done devoid of added moisture and thus excess heat, with fermentation)* or for better or worse, aging. It actually never stops the fermentation process or aging *(aging process never stops as time still is going bye, but fermentation has stopped when the Pilones or Burros are broken up)*.





> Many cigars that are fresh off the rollers table if smoked immediately even though very tannic and young tasting have a pleasant flavor, but most would agree that a fresh cigar is not extremely complex. This brings up several issues that are scientifically proven. There are three major activities that have a part in the fermentation process of tobacco; they are a. oxygen exposure, b. temperature, c. humidity. The more humid a cigar is, the more the fermentation that is occurring in the tobacco. Thus, the fresher a cigar is from the rollers table, the more that it is subject to higher amounts of fermentation and then takes time to stabilize and become blended to its desired state. The different tobaccos used; weather it is Volado, Seco or Ligero in the filler, binder or wrapper has not had a chance to "marry" and blend together and make the cigar a true tasting Habanos that it will develop into one day in the future.


In my research all of the above you describe is really "Reduction", as I have stated ad nauseum that fermentation cannot happen at any time other than in that stage. I have a nice piece I put together a few years back on Reduction, sorting through many posts on the topic on a very long thread where 2 chemists got involved and it is a very interesting read. If anyone wants a copy they are more than welcome to PM me and I will send it to them. I am not going to take the time and space right now to post it in it's entirety.



> So, now the cigar is rolled and let's say that it has already gone through the process of color sorting and placed into wheels and gone through the drying rooms and has been boxed for shipment out to the various distributors and thus the retailers for sale to the end user. I have seen available boxes already with early 2005 codes available for purchase. These would IMHO be considered very new and young cigars, which I would not even consider smokable for total enjoyment, but that is another subject, so I will not venture there in this post.


The tobacco should have been properly fermented and aged by the time it has made it to the end user. The difference I will whole heartedly agree with you on is that some will enjoy them "fresh" for what they are and others of us will try the cigar and be able (sometimes that is, because I've tasted some cigars which I might have thought had no potential for the future only to revisit them sometime later to be proven I was initially wrong) to in some ways forsee the future.



> Some people have experienced smoking cigars that are in a period of flux in the aging process, which has been called the sick period. Many have stated that during this period the cigar will give off an ammonia type smell or flavor, which they associate with the fermentation or aging process. There is IMHO no exact period that the "sick period" can or will occur, but the cigar is always in a constant state of transition while it continues to develop, age and mature.


Again, I will refer to the discussion on Reduction, which is the process really going on here, not fermentation. It's really just a case of "hit or miss" with relation to where the cigar is in it's reduction as to what one gets out of it, good or bad.



> I am a believer that aging is a process that all true lovers of the Habanos leaf will gain better flavors from. If I smoke a cigar and it is off balance, flat or what some call a "sick period", then I leave the remainder of them alone buried deep in sleep resting in my humidor for some time, because I know that the cigar will change again and become a vibrant superb tasting, complex smoke again if leave them alone over time. I try to smoke the majority of the cigars I smoke with at least 3 years of age from the box code so that the tobacco has had ample time to blend together and stabilize. When I smoke a cigar that has longer aging, such as 5-8 years on them, they have usually been stellar tasting cigars. Smoking young cigars is in my opinion, almost a waste of time and money, but each different cigar smoker needs to make their own judgment and decision about when and how to enjoy their cigars.


I also typically try not to regularly smoke cigars that have less than 2-3 years on them post the box code date, but once they have reached that date I still find that during reduction I can at any given point in time light up a cigar and not be happy with it. When this happens I put that box on a "try one in a month or so" rotation because with the cigar ever changing as you correctly say, one never knows what one is going to get from a cigar at any given point in time.

Great Post! Always enjoy this type of conversation.


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## sekoudog (Oct 20, 2005)

Sorry 'bout that I was in a cave.


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## OpusEx (Oct 31, 2003)

dvickery said:


> motownflip
> 
> will try to answer your question(s)...
> 
> ...


Agree with everything you say Derrek. I think the hardest thing for most is that we cannot be sure but, almost assuredly can assume that the long aged cigars available today were not stored "perfectly" by one person for the entire time since production and thus have "past there prime". This however opens up a whole new can of worms because some like the flavors/tastes associated with long aged cigars (those I refer to above, "almost assuredly can assume that the long aged cigars available today were not stored "perfectly" by one person for the entire time since production"), so I would think that "prime" has a definition that differentiates with each individual. I've had the opportunity to smoke both "kinds" and I would lean towards agreeing with you that if it were a cigar of the first kind it would probably never pass it's prime, but the second kind has IMHO in instances for my tastes before. Now if only I could have bought a whole bunch of cigars when I was 10 and stored them myself perfectly until now LMAO


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## Tampa1257 (Jul 27, 2006)

OpusEx,

I would be interested in seeing or reading the information you have on what you are referring to the "Reduction". From what I have studied and read concerning Fermentation, as I stated above, it takes the three elements and that Fermentation is in a constant state from the time it has been harvested. The process that you have referred to as the Fermentation while the tobacco is in a Pilone is true, but the studies conducted by La Production du Tabac in the Principes et Methodes support my theory that Fermentation continues beyond the initial Pilone Fermentation and throughout the entire life-cycle of the cigar as long as the three basic elements (a. oxygen exposure, b. temperature, c. humidity) exist.


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## Tampa1257 (Jul 27, 2006)




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## Joekendall04 (Aug 1, 2006)

Any way to tell if a cigar is "sick" before smoking it?


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## ToddziLLa (Oct 17, 2005)

Great discussion!


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## OpusEx (Oct 31, 2003)

> OpusEx,
> 
> I would be interested in seeing or reading the information you have on what you are referring to the "Reduction". From what I have studied and read concerning Fermentation, as I stated above, it takes the three elements and that Fermentation is in a constant state from the time it has been harvested. The process that you have referred to as the Fermentation while the tobacco is in a Pilone is true, but the studies conducted by La Production du Tabac in the Principes et Methodes support my theory that Fermentation continues beyond the initial Pilone Fermentation and throughout the entire life-cycle of the cigar as long as the three basic elements (a. oxygen exposure, b. temperature, c. humidity) exist.


Tampa,
Unfortunately, I do not read French. Took many years of it throughout schooling, but only because I had to pick a language (IMO typical dumb american thinking. I have long wished that the US made kids take more than one language, as most children in europe have the exposure to given the proximity of all the different language speaking neighbors they have). It's a shame you could not provide an english version as reference, as I think a bunch of people would find it interesting reading. If anyone wants some english versions of the process of fermentation, which get more in depth than the definition I posted below in the excerpt PM me and I'll help you out. In a very technical sense your research and mine are the same and I have plenty of sources for the same thing I can only assume your photos say, but the difference between what you have read and my introduction of "Reduction" are explained below in an excerpt from the edited post compilation I put together:

*Fermentation is the chemical breakdown of organic substances due to processing/reactions in consort with another agent, either inert (e.g., enzymes) or microbial (e.g., yeast or bacteria.) Examples are sugar converting to alcohol (yeast) or alcohol converting to acetic acid (vinegar, via the bacterium acetobacter.) As an aside, the first is an anaerobic (without oxygen) reaction and the second is an aerobic (requires oxygen) reaction.

Oxidation is the chemical breakdown of substances due to reaction with oxygen, which can be in the form of gaseous oxygen or some other oxygen containing compound. Burning is a rapid oxidation. The spoiling of a bottle of wine left open is a slower oxidation. The turning rancid of vegetable oil that has been stored for a long time with air in the bottle is a yet slower one. The dulling of unprotected paint in the sun and the formation of a white layer is yet slower.

Reduction (the missing piece) is the chemical breakdown of substances due to reaction without oxygen. The breakdown of complex organic molecules in a corked bottle of wine is primarily due to reduction.

First, all of these reactions can occur to some degree depending on the specific cigars/storage. In general, the cooler temperatures of storage result in the reactions taking place VERY slowly. As with wine, higher storage temperatures for cigars will result in these reactions occurring more quickly, and typically producing a far less interesting (if not unpleasant) result. The reasons for that are beyond the scope of this discussion.

It is unlikely that significant fermentation takes place after rolling. Fermentations generally require some intervention to maintain, and typically require temperatures that are not consistent with long term storage. That being said, it is possible that they continue at a low level. I believe that most individuals when referring to "fermentation after packaging" are actually talking about reduction.*

The key basic element of the 3 you reference, which is missing after fermentation in the pilones and burros is heat. As the excerpt above states, storage of cigars after rolling is done in cooler temperatures.


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## OpusEx (Oct 31, 2003)

Joekendall04 said:


> Any way to tell if a cigar is "sick" before smoking it?


Simple answer: NO

That being said the longer you wait the more dramatically you decrease the chances.


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## NCRadioMan (Feb 28, 2005)

Class is "in". Thanks gentlemen!


:ms NCRM


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## Tampa1257 (Jul 27, 2006)

I am re-reading the information and studies that have assisted me in forming my opinion. I need to say that all this is very interesting on several different levels, as this is taking science and appreciation of cigars to an all new level. The purpose of showing the documentation is to show validity to my post, not to bring about discussion on peoples ability to read other languages, so let me also provide a translation of the documentation and make a few additional comments.

Fermentation theories

Several theories have been suggested to explain the fermentation process.

1) Chemistry theories. The first one was suggested in 1867 by Nessler and has been approved by Schloesing (father). The authors of this theory thought that the fermentation of the tobacco was a simple oxidation of the elements constituting the leaves of tobacco under the action of oxygen, with no intervention from other agents. Later, Boekhout and de Vries (1909) have suggested a purely chemical hypothesis, whereby the oxidation of tobacco was possible thanks to some inorganic catalysts, in particular iron and manganese.

These theories are more or less completely abandoned now, to the benefit of 2 other theories: microbial and enzymatic.

2) The microbial theory has been suggested for the first time by Suehsland (1891). He compared the fermentation of tobacco with the fermentation of sweet wort and thought it was due to some microbial agents specific to each type of tobacco. This theory seemed to agree with the "betunage" in Cuba, which, as we will see later, means sowing the tobacco before fermentation. The author of this theory deducted that one could improve greatly the quality of an ordinary tobacco by sowing the tobacco seeds together with microbial strains extracted from noble (better quality) tobacco. A few quick attempts initially seemed to confirm this hypothesis. But more serious attempts and practical studies showed that it was in fact not successful. Splendore (1902) didn't notice any improvement, when he fermented some Kentucky after having added some juice of noble tobacco (Havana, Brazil).

3) The enzymatic theory is suggested by Loew (1899-1901), who didn't buy the microbial theory because, according to him, microbes cannot be found in large quantity on leaves, and also because most of the fermentations are made with types of tobacco which don't retain enough water to allow the development of microbes. According to Loew, the fermentation process is due to oxidation reactions, which oxygen allows, together with the action of oxidizing diastases (oxidases and peroxidases in particular). These diastases which can be found in tobacco leaves are not destroyed when the leaves are dried out, and are revived when the environment becomes favorable again. This can also explain that the reactions during fermentation are a logical step after the leaves have been dried out.

The controversy between these various theories still continues nowadays. Fermenting in a sterile environment is mandatory if one is to claim that the role of microbes is not significant. The problem is that it is difficult to sterilize tobacco without destroying the enzymes at the same time. Although it seems that some authors, Smirnov in particular, have been successful, by treating the tobacco with some antiseptic tinctures (sublimated) or some anesthetic (chloroform). The tobacco, if treated this way, retain its capability of fermentation, its capability to absorb oxygen, and its capability to produce CO2. In this case the tobacco follows the transformations which happens in a normal fermentation.

Moreover, according to Smirnov, the microorganisms which grow during the fermentation process demand an extremely humid environment: Rh% at least 85% for fungus, and 95% for bacteria. With an Rh% of only 70-75%, which corresponds to the best Rh% for the development and activity of enzymes, the microorganisms cannot grow. Smirnov noticed that every time microorganisms managed to grow was because of an environment too humid and the tobacco produced was of lower quality. This can be said for Oriental tobaccos, which begin the fermentation process with an Rh% of 14-18% and a temperature below 40 degrees Celsius. In this case it seems that indeed the fermentation process is enzymatic.

However, in other cases, some authors have noticed considerable development of microorganisms. Reid, Mc Kinstry and Haley (1938) have estimated that in US tobacco for cigars, there exist more than 2 billions schizomycetes per gram of tobacco. In Italy, during the fermentation of Kentucky tobacco, Giovannozzi found on average 860 million schizomycete per gram of dry tobacco, and he proved that the development of microbes can occur inside tissues. In certain cases, microorganisms can appear in large quantity, when the initial Rh% is high (about 30%) and perform an active fermentation (55 to 60 degrees Celsius). But, one can wonder if these organisms are essential and if they are responsible for substantial transformations. At the end of the day, given out current knowledge, we can accept the enzymatic theory for slow and moderate fermentations (Oriental tobaccos for instance). It seems logical to extend this theory to active fermentations too, since the transformations are essentially of the same nature. The microorganisms which grow in certain tobaccos appear to have a secondary role. They can generate transformations which are not part of the fermentation process per se, but can still be useful in certain cases.

c) Factors that impact the fermentation process.

1) The way the fermentation occurs depends on the types of tobacco and the type of leaves, which in turn depend on the way the tobacco has been grown and chopped, the stage of maturity, the position of the stem, etc&#8230;

In cases of fermentation done in large scale, we have for instance noticed since long ago that in France, Nijkerk tobacco, a strong tobacco, ferment quite slowly, but regularly and rarely reaches high temperatures. For cigars tobacco, the leaves produced during period of humid weather increase in temperature more rapidly than leaves produced during periods of dry weather. Higher leaves, less mature, ferment more actively than lower leaves, more mature. These observations show the need for a pre-selection of the leaves, in order to have an homogeneous fermentation of the leaves.

(Fig. 153)

The fermentation, being essentially an oxidizing process, catalyzed by enzymes, needs: 1) oxygen, and 2) an environment favorable to the development of enzymes.

2) Oxygen is mandatory. Although in relatively small quantity might be enough, as shown by Schloesing and Stoquer in Paris and in Beaurepaire by Gisquet from 1924 to 1927, when they fermented tobacco in closed containers. In fact, in real conditions, there is almost always enough oxygen, except may be in very compact masses, when the CO2 generated by an active fermentation isn't eliminated and maintain certain anaerobic conditions.

3) However, a certain humidity level and a certain temperature is necessary for the diastases to operate. In a dry environment, they can't operate. During the fermentation process, the humidity of tobacco depends on the one hand on its initial content in water, and on the other hand on the Rh%. An equilibrium establishes between these 2 factors, more or less rapidly depending on the quality of the tobacco and its density. In large quantity, or in bales of high density, the tobaccos are less influenced by the Rh% and in this case, the fermentation is primarily influenced by the initial content in water of the tobacco.

Mihailovici and Constantinescu (1936) have studied the impact of the initial water content of the tobacco by fermenting various qualities of Molovata and Ghimpatzi types of tobacco, in bales of 50kg, in an environment with 25 degrees Celsius temperature and 75% Rh%. In all cases, the higher the initial water content, the more active the fermentation process (see Fig.153).

Using the same tobaccos, Mihailovici and Trafiue (1989) have studied, in addition of the impact of the initial water content (14, 17 and 20%), the impact of the size of the bales (25, 50 and 75kg). Moreover, they have calculated the loss in water and dry matter. During the fermentation process, the environment was kept at a constant 25 degrees Celsius and a 75% Rh% (Tabl.XX).

Table XX- INFLUENCE OF THE INITIAL WATER CONTENT ON THE FERMENTATION PROCESS

These results show the impact of the initial water content of the tobacco. The higher it is, the more active is the fermentation (higher temperature, more waste). The impact of the weight of the bales, is much smaller.

(Fig.154): Temperature curve during fermentation (Molotova type, quality IC, bale of 25kg); impact of Rh% according to Mihailovici and Constantinescu.

In order to study the role of the relative humidity, Mihailovici and Constantinescu (1937) have fermented tobaccos in an environment with 70, 75 and 80% humidity, all other things equal. They observed that fermentation was all the more active than the environment was more humid (Fig.154). This effect is more pronounced with bales of 25kg vs 75kg.

4) Enzymes can only operate within a certain temperature range. For each enzyme, there exist a minimum, an optimal (under which the speed of the fermentation reactions is higher) and a maximum. Depending on the enzyme, the optimal temperature varies between 20 to 70 degrees Celsius. In natural fermentation, the temperature of the tobacco depends partly on the environmental temperature, and partly on the quantity of tobacco. In smaller bales, there is practically no fermentation under a temperature of 16 degrees Celsius. In larger bales, on the contrary, it is sufficient for a reaction to be triggered. Since the reaction generates heat, the temperature within the bale increases automatically. The heat isn't eliminated when it is produced, it actually increases and the fermentation speeds up automatically. In the case of larger bales, it is only under very cold temperature that the initial reaction won't trigger auto-fermentation of the bale.

~The End

Some of my documentation was provided to me by a very well known Authority of Cuban cigars, and part of further discussion was stating that the fermentation process used up the oxygen if it was in a closed type environment i.e.; tubes or foil. I agree the once tobacco has been harvested, it is actually always in a constant state of fermentation, *which can also be read as "Aging", the development of the active enzymes and breakdown of the leaf combined with the different leaves or blending of the tobacco together making the fermentation process or aging which results over a period of time.*This helps explain to me some of the scientific process of aging of cigars.

I have 2 other comments:

1) Since different enzymes operate at different temperatures, and since your humidor has a unique temperature, this suggests that cigars in your humidor are going to continue their fermentation (age) at various pace. Right? In short, some cigars will mature faster than others.

2) Since fermentation (aging) is more active when the density in tobacco is high, my conclusion is that the cigars mature more rapidly in their unopened box with cigars packed side by side, even better in 50cabs, as opposed to cigars stored individually in a desktop humidor.

Where this discussion has covered the initial fermentation of the raw tobacco and continued through to either what OpusEx suggests as a "Reduction" period or "Fermentation/Aging" period of the tobacco. It still boils down to the active enzymes and density of the tobacco along with the amounts of Oxygen, Temperature and humidity levels of the tobacco as to when, how long and why tobacco transitions (Sick Period). There is still no definitive period to say when a cigar will go into and come out of this transition (Sick) period. All any of us can do is keep and maintain a stable environment for the storage of our cigars that we love and should we find one of our cigars affected by this, keep the others well maintained until a future time when the vibrant flavors will most assuredly return and provide another excellent cigar smoking experience.

Tampa


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## motownflip (Jul 26, 2006)

WOW. What a enormous amount of info. Thanks for educating this forum!


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## BeagleOne (Dec 23, 2005)

Chuck, Welcome to CS! I am glad to see you sharing your knowledge here as you have imparted on to me in the MS Forum.

Tony


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## Ashcan Bill (Jul 29, 2006)

An extremely learned discussion.

It makes sense to me that the fermentation process would continue. I work in the brewing field where we must take proactive steps to end the wort fermentation when the desired results are achieved, for the most part through filtration and pasteurization. I can see similarities between the alcohol and tobacco fermentation processes.

What's interesting is where continued fermentation in beer is undesirable, it seems the opposite is true with tobacco. I think most would agree tobacco benefits from longer term fermentation (aging if you will). Of course at the point the product is rolled and packaged, this process would be retarded to a considerable degree. The question, it would seem, is the degree to which it would continue to ferment.

An _impressive_ amount of knowledge on this board. Thanks to all for sharing that knowledge.


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## ESP (Jan 1, 2000)

Tampa1257 said:


> ..... my conclusion is that the cigars mature more rapidly in their unopened box with cigars packed side by side, even better in 50cabs, as opposed to cigars stored individually in a desktop humidor.....
> 
> Tampa


Not sure if I agree! (my head's still spinning from all the data! and perhaps Tampa arrived at this conclusion of "maturing more rapidly in tightly packed boxes" based on all the variables such as oxidation, enzymes, microbes, temp., RH and so on,, however,,

in my personal experience, 1) for long term age cigars are best to be kept in their original boxes (some even put them in zip lock) to restrict the air flow even more - that of course should be in the lower RH/Temp ranges of 50-60%RH and say 55-65 DF.
2) On the other hand, to age ones cigars more rapidly we need more air flow (say in a desktop, higher RH/temp, say 70%/70-75 degrees,,

imo the slower aging locks in more of the flavors but at the cost of many more years of waiting! :c The cigars in the second case of higher RH/temp. would come out of the real sick (ammonia smells) faster and still could be great smokes - for example many tobacconists keep theirs at the famous 70/70 and their cigars are just fine! I think we can sometimes get really picky and forget how difficult is the ideal 40 years of wait in the North Pole!

On the sick period thingi I have long given up figuring it out! (imo cigars go through cyclical aging). For example, I remember smoking from a 15yr old box and the cigar was off,, 3 months later the same box offered a fantastic smoke! (not one, but several!) I have many of these examples in my crowded mind and that's why I find MRN's opinion on the vacuum period only a good read - on the other hand I keep my own simple theory that works for me! (if it's off, lay he rest down for at least a month) 

On the subject of fresh Vs. aged, there are some vitolas I rather smoke fresh (say a week up to a month old MC2) , although the same MC2 at 2-5 yrs is a different animal,, maybe its the rarity of finding a truly fresh cigar makes it more desirable! for that matter a well aged 40 yr old wouldn't be too bad either!


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## OpusEx (Oct 31, 2003)

ESP said:


> Not sure if I agree!


Agree 100%. The easiest and simplest example is wine and "breathing" it before drinking. Even though you may be opening a bottle well before the "optimum" drinking year, you can "artificially" age it by doing this. I have always prefered the "natural progression" method though allowing nature to takes it's course.


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## OpusEx (Oct 31, 2003)

ESP said:


> 1) for long term age cigars are best to be kept in their original boxes (some even put them in zip lock) to restrict the air flow even more -
> 
> imo the slower aging locks in more of the flavors but at the cost of many more years of waiting! :c


I actually was privy to tasting a cigar that had been vaccum sealed for 2-3 years (a cohiba robusto). You'd be surprised how different the cigar was from what you would expect from a CoRo and how it had developed in such a short time under this experiment. I should add that the experiment included a box of the same code, which was not vaccum sealed. All this is what lead me to my research on "reduction".


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## LasciviousXXX (Oct 12, 2004)

Goddamn I love this thread. Had to top it for the amazing amount of info contained within. 

Thanx for everything guys.

Interesting note OpusEx, after reading your post of vaccum-sealing boxes I am going to be testing this theory out personally with a box or two that I think will benefit from some good age in the Cabinet Humi. I'll let you know in a couple years how it turns out 

XXX


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## newcigarz (Feb 11, 2007)

Interesting Post. I have always found that a strong ammonia smell is the sign 
that a cigar needs to lay down and rest for awhile.


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## donp (Mar 5, 2006)

Excellent post, very informative and usefull. I appreciate it.


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## cls515 (Sep 28, 2005)

OpusEx said:


> Tampa,
> Unfortunately, I do not read French. Took many years of it throughout schooling, but only because I had to pick a language (IMO typical dumb american thinking. I have long wished that the US made kids take more than one language, as most children in europe have the exposure to given the proximity of all the different language speaking neighbors they have). It's a shame you could not provide an english version as reference, as I think a bunch of people would find it interesting reading. If anyone wants some english versions of the process of fermentation, which get more in depth than the definition I posted below in the excerpt PM me and I'll help you out. In a very technical sense your research and mine are the same and I have plenty of sources for the same thing I can only assume your photos say, but the difference between what you have read and my introduction of "Reduction" are explained below in an excerpt from the edited post compilation I put together:
> 
> *Fermentation is the chemical breakdown of organic substances due to processing/reactions in consort with another agent, either inert (e.g., enzymes) or microbial (e.g., yeast or bacteria.) Examples are sugar converting to alcohol (yeast) or alcohol converting to acetic acid (vinegar, via the bacterium acetobacter.) As an aside, the first is an anaerobic (without oxygen) reaction and the second is an aerobic (requires oxygen) reaction.
> ...


Not exactly. Reduction is the gain of electrons, while oxidation is the loss of electrons. It just so happens that sometimes oxygen is involved in these processes.


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## cls515 (Sep 28, 2005)

Tampa1257 said:


> A couple of years ago, I wrote this about what the "Sick Period" is. What got me thinking about this was the question about why the PSD4's go into this transitional period and how long they stay there. Well, I also believe that it would make for a good discussion and help other Gorillas as well.
> 
> Many cigar smokers have commented over the years that some of their cigars have gone into a "sick period", or in other words that when they smoke the cigar, that the flavors, tastes and complexity has become flat, bland and has some annoying ammonia smell, or in some degree off balance from what the profile of the same cigar smoked like a few short months, weeks or years ago. The discussion of cigars has never before reached the levels that let's say Wine has, but with the educated level of the cigar aficionados in today's market, these discussions are quickly and exponentially reaching this educated level. There is no consensus that I know of regarding the "Sick Period".
> 
> ...


What is most likely happening is the natural decomposition of the tobacco leaf in a controlled way. By controlled I mean the process is stopped before the tobacco leaf decomposes completely. Since the tobacco leafs are fermented above ground, it would be an aerobic process since oxygen is available. For a good read about aerobic/anaerobic processes, check out the following link: http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/extension/compost/chapter1.html Even though you're book seems really cool, for scientific purposes, always use the most updated information. The above link I assume was produced more recently by Texas A&M, a reputable agricultural source. The link talks directly about the decomposition of the organic compounds, the tobacco leaf, and the release of ammonia.

The conditions Tampa refers to, oxygen, water, and temperature are more so for the microorganisms who are involved in the fermentation. Molecular/cellular ezymes of the tobacco leaf are not really important in the fermentation (anaerobic) because the leaf is dead and the enzymes are nonfunctional.


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## j6ppc (Jun 5, 2006)

Sticky please.
Edit (pnoon): done.


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## MoTheMan (May 24, 2003)

I like to think that the tobacco leaves in cigars aren't just fome brown dried, post-fermentd organic matter with good taste on burning BUT RATHER part of what was once viable living organic tissue.
To me that means that if you could focus down enough into some of the cellular structures still present in the leaves, you'll find a chemical environment that's greatly different feom when the leaf ws still green 7 on the plant. Nonetheless, you'll probably find that a lot of cellular machinery is still present, but the usual substrate concentrations (sugars and other alkaloids) are very diferent. I suspect that while the tobacco cells aren't growing anymore, they still maintain a certain low level of enzymatic activity that continues long after the cigar has been rolled and is probably responsible for why the cigar changes so favorably with aging time.


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## cls515 (Sep 28, 2005)

MoTheMan said:


> I like to think that the tobacco leaves in cigars aren't just fome brown dried, post-fermentd organic matter with good taste on burning BUT RATHER part of what was once viable living organic tissue.
> To me that means that if you could focus down enough into some of the cellular structures still present in the leaves, you'll find a chemical environment that's greatly different feom when the leaf ws still green 7 on the plant. Nonetheless, you'll probably find that a lot of cellular machinery is still present, but the usual substrate concentrations (sugars and other alkaloids) are very diferent. I suspect that while the tobacco cells aren't growing anymore, they still maintain a certain low level of enzymatic activity that continues long after the cigar has been rolled and is probably responsible for why the cigar changes so favorably with aging time.


For the cellular machinery you speak of, even in live, viable tissue, they don't last forever. Some do, of course last longer than others. Two years after a leaf has been picked, the only functional cellular "machinery" that "works" are structural features, such as a cell wall made out of cellulose. But I wouldn't consider this part of the plant viable. It is comparable to cotton. But the cells don't maintain a low level of enzymatic activity.


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## MoTheMan (May 24, 2003)

cls515 said:


> For the cellular machinery you speak of, even in live, viable tissue, they don't last forever. Some do, of course last longer than others. Two years after a leaf has been picked, the only functional cellular "machinery" that "works" are structural features, such as a cell wall made out of cellulose. But I wouldn't consider this part of the plant viable. It is comparable to cotton. But the cells don't maintain a low level of enzymatic activity.


Is cotton cellular or is it just fiber?! (Always thought it ws the latter.)

I hate to disagree, but I do think there's still enzymatic activity, albeit maybe <10% of a living, on the plant green leaf.


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## cls515 (Sep 28, 2005)

MoTheMan said:


> Is cotton cellular or is it just fiber?! (Always thought it ws the latter.)
> 
> I hate to disagree, but I do think there's still enzymatic activity, albeit maybe <10% of a living, on the plant green leaf.


You're right, cotton is cellulose, a fiber. Cellulose makes a cell wall, sort of a house for a cell. When a leaf falls off a tree and lands on the ground, it dies. The same as a tobacco leaf. When you take it off the plant, the leaf also dies. However, the structural cell wall remains. The cell proper, which is a ball of water enclosed in a membrane, is not able to sustain itself. There is no fluid circulation, so wastes accumulate. Glucose production decreases. Since glucose production decreases, the cell is not able to meet energy requirements. All of these lead to cellular death. As such, the microenvironment that enzymes are in no longer exists. Enzymes work in a strict environment. The pH and temperature must be right. It may also need a proper stimulus to activate it, such as phophorylation. Nevertheless, when the cell has died this environment no longer sustains enzymatic activity.

Even in a lab, enzymes can be stored for a long time. But, they have to be frozen. At room temperature, when the enzymes are out of their natural environment (the cell), they degrade.

Edit: Over the course of smoking a well fermented cigar (thanks Mo), in an environment that prevents dessication (humidor), and the microenvironment of the enzymes remain intact (cell), Mo you may be correct in saying a small percent of enzymatic activity remains. I'll leave it at that.


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## MoTheMan (May 24, 2003)

cls515 said:


> Even in a lab, enzymes can be stored for a long time. But, they have to be frozen. At room temperature, when the enzymes are out of their natural environment (the cell), they degrade.
> 
> Edit: Over the course of smoking a well fermented cigar (thanks Mo), in an environment that prevents dessication (humidor), and the microenvironment of the enzymes remain intact (cell), Mo you may be correct in saying a small percent of enzymatic activity remains. I'll leave it at that.


From all that I remember of my biochemistry, there SHOULD be some (minue) amount of enzymatic activity in those tebaccy cells. I do agree with you thought that if the storage conditions were poor, the cigar leaf will dessicate & lose all it's good smoking qualities.


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## daviddunn (Sep 26, 2006)

I just wanted to say that this is a great read, and I want to thank everyone who took the time to write it. I learned a lot.


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## carni (Jan 18, 2007)

"SHAKE and BAKE"

"That just happened"

"Does that not just blow your mind?"

Yes my mind is blown.


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## Boston_Dude05 (Oct 10, 2006)

After trying some young ones, this article makes a lot more sense to me. Now I need to stock up on many boxes since it takes 3 years to age 'em.


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## OpusEx (Oct 31, 2003)

cls515 said:


> Not exactly. Reduction is the gain of electrons, while oxidation is the loss of electrons. It just so happens that sometimes oxygen is involved in these processes.


First, let's keep in mind here the intent was to inform the readers of this post and have a discussion, which was very specific to cigars. To get lost in a purely scientific discussion is and would not be good for this thread and I think throughout my contributions to the thread I have kept my comments as close to "layman" terminology as I could while still explaining the thoughts.

I think Tampa's information about fermentation after his original post is way to much for the average person to digest and I found it a difficult (tiring) read for the most part, as it was information I had already read in one form or another. All in all, even after reading all the info he posted it still meant that the missing element to actually have fermentation taking place beyond the pilones was HEAT.

As for your comment above my understanding is that the actual gain or loss of electrons may never take place and the thing that will actually happen is an increase or decrease in the "oxidation number." In addition, it doesn't seem to me that it "just so happens that oxygen is sometimes involved in these processes", in that oxygen or an oxidant (an element in high oxidation numbers) is what removes/accepts electrons. In reduction we're looking for elements that can give off electrons and those elements (oxygen or those in high oxidation number) would not be the right candidates. So, it shouldn't be an accident/coincidence that oxygen is present in oxidation and not present in reduction (other than that in reduction, the reductant is oxidizing itself) .

*My advice to all that read this thread as it is now a sticky is to blow right over the "scientific" parts and read the more general and "how it directly applies to cigars" parts. Then maybe use the information to decide how you want to "age" your cigars or how you might notice the change in the smoking of them given your aging preferences. If you're into and can handle the WHOLE contribution then it all warrants reading and might be fun for some, including the latest contributions from Mo and cls515, which I'm sure they gave due to their personal expertise. An expertise I do not possess, as I'm just a cigar guy who one night got curious and did a bunch of reading*


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## cls515 (Sep 28, 2005)

OpusEx said:


> As for your comment above my understanding is that the actual gain or loss of electrons may never take place and the thing that will actually happen is an increase or decrease in the "oxidation number." In addition, it doesn't seem to me that it "just so happens that oxygen is sometimes involved in these processes", in that oxygen or an oxidant (an element in high oxidation numbers) is what removes/accepts electrons. In reduction we're looking for elements that can give off electrons and those elements (oxygen or those in high oxidation number) would not be the right candidates. So, it shouldn't be an accident/coincidence that oxygen is present in oxidation and not present in reduction (other than that in reduction, the reductant is oxidizing itself).[/B]


In oxidation/reduction reactions, you can't have one without the other. So if something is oxidized, the oxidizing agent will be reduced. This all refers to the gain/loss of electrons. An oxidizing agent is something that takes an electron off something else. So yeah, oxidation/reduction just refers to the loss of gain of electrons. Oxygen does not have to be involved in oxidation/reduction reactions. But like I said before, it can.


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## Bigwaved (May 20, 2006)

I love to reread this thread because it makes me think.


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## icehog3 (Feb 20, 2005)

A bump for a great discussion.


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## j6ppc (Jun 5, 2006)

Excellent thread. Sticky material IMHO.


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## The Professor (Jul 20, 2006)

j6ppc said:


> Sticky please.
> Edit (pnoon): done.





j6ppc said:


> Excellent thread. Sticky material IMHO.


Funny you'd say that, Jon ... it's like déjà vu (all over again )


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