# Avalon Cigars?



## Turtle (Aug 24, 2010)

Anyone tried any of these? Hellhound, Juke, Numbers etc?

Normally I'm not one for marketing, but I must say - their website etc made an impression on me (not quite enough to go out and buy a box, but eh you know), and I was curious to see if anyone has smoked any of these?

Thoughts? Impressions?


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## thebayratt (Jun 4, 2009)

Had a buddy who smoked one of them, i think it was called the "hellcat" or something like that.

Here is the catch. Avalon went under as far as I was told. They sold the remaining stock to a B&M/Distributor in Jackson MS if Im not mistaken. A B&M I got to occasionally says Avalon owes him about $1500 worth of stock. So I think, once they are gone, they are gone!


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## Turtle (Aug 24, 2010)

That would make sense - I've seen them a few places, but they are "discontinued" so that would most likely indicate the BK. 

Hmm - wonder if they are any good.


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## thebayratt (Jun 4, 2009)

That one my buddy had was pretty good he told me.

The B&M thats owed the stock has about 2boxes left at about $5-6 each... I think next time im by there I'll grab a handful, if they are still there. If so, i'll send ya sum. _No worries._
Its cigars like these that you really _don't _want to smoke, because if you really like them, itd be hard pressed to find them again. I know Famous has them.

Avalon Hellhound Cigars

Juke Cigars

Kind of funny, but this is my desktop background!


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## fuente~fuente (May 11, 2009)

Your right Shawn... Avalon = :faint::rip:


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## DawkinsDawgFan (Jun 24, 2010)

The BK would explain this:



> I missed seeing Avalon's Gary Hilton at IPCPR. That was because I wasn't on the floor when he entered wearing a name tag, in the name of Bill Smiith of Renegade Cigar Shop (a Retailer). He was quickly seized by security people and shown the door and threatened with arrest if he attempted to return.
> 
> Apparently he neglected to settle with the IPCPR for his huge number of booths last year!


-from cigarMedia.tv


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## Turtle (Aug 24, 2010)

thebayratt said:


> That one my buddy had was pretty good he told me.
> 
> The B&M thats owed the stock has about 2boxes left at about $5-6 each... I think next time im by there I'll grab a handful, if they are still there. If so, i'll send ya sum. _No worries._
> Its cigars like these that you really _don't _want to smoke, because if you really like them, itd be hard pressed to find them again. I know Famous has them.
> ...


That'd be _awesome_ if you'd do that. I looked at famous and their auctioneer but all boxes... and I didn't want to go out on a limb that far if I hated the cigar. Just let me know what I owe ya.

LOVE the picture - I have it and two others randomly changing for my background (found it 2 weeks back as I kept looking for avalon). Looks like my wife (with just a bit more red red hair) so she lets me keep it.


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## thebayratt (Jun 4, 2009)

DawkinsDawgFan said:


> The BK would explain this:
> 
> -from cigarMedia.tv


I saw one of them this year @ IPCPR, I think it was Bill Smith from Renegade. Did not know that the other "incident" happened.... interesting...

I have been wanting to come up and see Renegade Cigars.. hopefully around Christmas time I will make my usual trip back up that way.


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## Tredegar (Nov 27, 2007)

I tried some of their early releases. They were retailing in the 10-12 dollar range and certainly not worth it.


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## thebayratt (Jun 4, 2009)

They can be got for about $5-6 each, possibly cheaper. The place I see themat has them 25% off... Im thinking about trying a few, just for giggles.


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## Snomoskier (Apr 15, 2009)

I smoked a Hellhound recently and it was pretty good. It reminded me of the new Illusione Singulare Phantom as far as flavor profile and also had a very similar looking thin and delicate wrapper. Construction was not up to par with the Illusione but it was pretty tasty and mild/medium bodied.


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## Turtle (Aug 24, 2010)

For 5ish bucks I'm sure there might be better things out there, but its got me curious! 

Just have the hellhounds or any numbers, juke, or others out there?


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## Abe601 (Dec 18, 2010)

Turtle said:


> Anyone tried any of these? Hellhound, Juke, Numbers etc?
> 
> Normally I'm not one for marketing, but I must say - their website etc made an impression on me (not quite enough to go out and buy a box, but eh you know), and I was curious to see if anyone has smoked any of these?
> 
> Thoughts? Impressions?


I have smoked all of them. This is a nice line of cigars. Price range can meet most expectations. My favorite cigars from Avalon are the Hellbound and Torque series. I smoke a Black Cat just the other day..


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## Abe601 (Dec 18, 2010)

thebayratt said:


> Had a buddy who smoked one of them, i think it was called the "hellcat" or something like that.
> 
> Here is the catch. Avalon went under as far as I was told. They sold the remaining stock to a B&M/Distributor in Jackson MS if Im not mistaken. A B&M I got to occasionally says Avalon owes him about $1500 worth of stock. So I think, once they are gone, they are gone!


Avalon is still in operation.


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## DawkinsDawgFan (Jun 24, 2010)

Abe601 said:


> Avalon is still in operation.


I really don't think they are. A buddy of mine went by their office in Clarksdale that is listed on the website and Avalon isn't there. The other address listed on the website is a house in Madison. No phone number on the website and they haven't answered an email from me in over six months. Too bad. I liked these smokes.


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## thebayratt (Jun 4, 2009)

DawkinsDawgFan said:


> I really don't think they are. A buddy of mine went by their office in Clarksdale that is listed on the website and Avalon isn't there. The other address listed on the website is a house in Madison. No phone number on the website and they haven't answered an email from me in over six months. Too bad. I liked these smokes.


They are.

They have Avalon Cigars and Avalon Distribution.
They are ran by two different guys from the Jackson MS area. Names have slipped my mind.

There is a load of Avalons thats waiting to be shipped from Nicaragua (i believe) but the owner/distributor can't pay the SCHIP tax on them as of now. A local shop of mine is contimplating getting an order in from them from what they do have left..


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## BMack (Dec 8, 2010)

Sounds like the beginning to the NEW: Rocky Patel Avalon cigars!


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## DawkinsDawgFan (Jun 24, 2010)

thebayratt said:


> They are.
> 
> They have Avalon Cigars and Avalon Distribution.
> They are ran by two different guys from the Jackson MS area. Names have slipped my mind.
> ...


Do a facebook search for "avalon cigars gary hilton" and see what you find. One of theyre sales people is suing them for stiffing him on commissions. If they can't pay theyre taxes, then they aren't in business. sounds like a con job to me. too bad. i liked theyre smokes.


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## thebayratt (Jun 4, 2009)

From what I've heard and seen, Gary Hilton is somewhat shady (if its the guy im thinking of).
He packed up a trailer full of cigars and parked it during a week long car event down here about 200 yards infront of a respected B&M and about a 1/2mile from another respected shop and never said a word. They (the two other shops) were looking forward to more sales that week... but little did they know they were bamboozled. It was legal what they (in the trailer) and all, but not very "moral" (i guess you'd say) to do that. A little friendly persuasion from the other two shop owners convinced them to not try that again.

I have also heard that another shop owner is owed about $1500 worth of Avalon stock that he has paid for in full and they have not came up with/shipped. He said he is contimplating filling a small claims case against whomever he bought them from. He wants his money, not his cigars now, its been too long of a wait.

I have not tried any of their smokes. There is a place that has them on sale fairly cheap. I am wanting to try a few, but my luck, I will like them and when they are gone, I won't be able to find anymore easily....

Found this:


> I missed seeing Avalon's Gary Hilton at IPCPR. That was because I wasn't on the floor when he entered wearing a name tag, in the name of Bill Smiith of Renegade Cigar Shop (a Retailer). He was quickly seized by security people and shown the door and threatened with arrest if he attempted to return.
> 
> Apparently he neglected to settle with the IPCPR for his huge number of booths last year!


I saw that happen.... he almost made it in~


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## Big Daddy (Feb 3, 2011)

Hello BOTL, there are some Avalon Cigars in Brandon,Ridgeland,and Jackson,Ms. The names of the stores are Humidor, Brandon 601-825-6525, Ridgeland 601-853-2323 and Havana Smoke Shoppe, 4760 I-55 N. Frontage Rd.601-713-0010. They have a full line of Jukes, which was rated 92 by Cigar Aficionado a few months back. These stores also carry the Hell Hounds, Numbers, Torque,and Whites. These are some fantastic cigars. The owner of these stores were able to pay the bill and receive shipment on the cigars a few months back.


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## Avalon Cigars (Mar 9, 2011)

Hey Guys, I just noticed this post. Avalon Cigars has definitely had some difficult patches as has many new businesses. To set the record as straight as possible here goes:

• No one is suing Avalon that we are aware of.
• No retail store has paid for an order they haven't received (although a couple were delayed for quite some time because of backorders)
• Avalon Cigars and Avalon Distributors are in no way associated
• As far as setting up a mobile cigar sales outlet in proximity to (2) B&Ms, it wasn't us.
• We no longer have a Clarksdale Address. This facility was for entertainment purposes and we could no longer afford to maintain it.
• If someone has emailed us you may not have received a response if there wasn't adequate information in the message. Please be specific about the information you request.

We feel we have a very good product and intend to be in the cigar business. Sometimes when you are re-organizing the best thing you can do is learn to crawl again.


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## Avalon Cigars (Mar 9, 2011)

Also... Gary Hilton does Co-own Renegade Cigar Company and did indeed attend the 2010 IPCPR Trade Show in New Orleans. Name Badge read “Gary Hilton, Renegade Cigar Company.”

He was however asked to leave the show by show personnel because of a balance owed from the previous show by Avalon Cigars. I don't know any “Bill Smith.”


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## athomas2 (May 13, 2007)

A Few years ago I had Juke Blue. The Cigar was pretty good and was . I enjoyed the Maduro quite a bit. I would like to see them in more B&Ms in the Midwest.


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## primetime76 (Feb 8, 2011)

Wait...your name is Gary...are you the gary that was asked to leave? And hell, any press is good press, right?!?! 

:bolt:


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## Abe601 (Dec 18, 2010)

primetime76 said:


> Wait...your name is Gary...are you the gary that was asked to leave? And hell, any press is good press, right?!?!
> 
> :bolt:


Press which states erroneous information is not good press. I guess you all have heard from the horse's mouth. Any other talk is pure conjecture and should be treated as rubbish.


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## Stinkdyr (Jun 19, 2009)

Avalon Cigars said:


> Hey Guys, I just noticed this post. Avalon Cigars has definitely had some difficult patches as has many new businesses. To set the record as straight as possible here goes:
> 
> • No one is suing Avalon that we are aware of.
> • No retail store has paid for an order they haven't received (although a couple were delayed for quite some time because of backorders)
> ...


Maybe to prove you are not fly by night..........you should send me a free sample of a few of your stix. I will be happy to review them and post my thoughts here on Puff.

opcorn:


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## Catdeddy (Feb 13, 2005)

I can tell you for a fact, Avalon has not folded. The distributor that caused the mistake is no longer involved, regardless of what he may say. They are reorganizing and reblended and "rebranded" about 3 yrs. ago. You no longer see the Masters series that was expensive. Now they have 7 lines, all reblended by Mike Adams and Gary. More on that in a second.

I was standing there at IPCPR when it all happened. Gary registered under his name in advance, and they took his money and had a name tag waiting for him before the show. He had been inside the show all morning when IPCPR VERY discreetly asked to speak with him behind the scenes and subsequently asked him to leave. He was NOT "seized, shown the door, or threatened with arrest". But I guess by the time we get back around the story will be that there was a physical altercation or shots were fired or something. Gossip does that. Whoever came up with that tripe was WAY off base. It was very quiet and discreet.

And there is no Bill Smith with Renegade Cigar Company, though there is a "Bill" that is a competitor that was telling vendors he was "working with" the staff at Renegade. He was and is NOT. Maybe that is the "Bill".

But this competitor also has a trailer/humidor (made from red/American cedar, of all things) that he sets up at NASCAR events, and I believe he took it to Little Sturgis. This competitor is from Brandon and is neither officially connected to Avalon (though he does have Avalon cigars for sale) or Renegade Cigar Company in any way, regardless of what you may hear. Maybe it was him that set up at the above mentioned event. But it was not Gary.

Yes--they didn't answer 2 of my e-mails, but they also did not receive some of them. The website, at one time, had a lot more gremilins than it does now.

The only thing shady about Gary Hilton is the 5 o'clock shadow he cultivates, and there is no con job. Avalon offers 3 Jukes-Ebony, Blue, and Red, Numbers--different combinations of cameroon and Ecuadorian maduro, the hellhounds, the Whites, and the Torques, all in 3-5 different sizes. I think they are in about 100 stores nationwide.

The Numbers are good. The Blues (maduros) are good. The habano wrapped Reds boast the lancero that scored a 92 in cA a yr. back. The Ebony is wrapped in Conn. shade and remind me a lot of Excaliburs (a personal favorite). The Whites remind me of Davidoffs, but less expensive. The hellhounds have the power many of us chase, but with age are exceptionally smooth. The Torques are strong, yet very smooth, and better than the new Avo Heritage. The Avo is a favorite but has a thin aftertaste. The Torque, in comparison, is richer and "better-lingering". The hellhounds (especially the Hi John) and the Torques, along with the Avo Heritage and Tatuaje Petite Cazadores, are the best new cigars to come out since the Punch Gran Puro so many yrs. ago. Your mileage may vary.

Renegade sells out of the Torques, Whites, and hellhounds in a matter of a few weeks. 10 boxes of Whites in less than a month, 8 boxes of hellhounds in the same month, as well as the 5 boxes of the larger-ring-gauge Torques.

The only cigar that moves faster is Tatuaje Gran Cojonu.


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## Abe601 (Dec 18, 2010)

Catdeddy said a mouthful. And I concur with the message in its entirety. Too much time is spent speculating on websites, when the truth is to be had. There are people on this thread who know the truth and choose to obscure it for personal gain. That's fine. The truth is that there are plenty of Avalon cigars available for purchase. If you can't find them in your local B&M, I am sure someone can arrange for a purchase.

I am personally offended by the character attacks on the staff of Avalon Cigars. Maybe they do not have generational wealth to sling around and produce hoards of cigars. Maybe they do not have the best distribution. However, Avalon being a premium boutique brand, you wouldn't expect them to, would you? Many posters on forums such as these claim to hate "big tobacco", but the majority of the posts are about "big tobacco" brands. A truly American invention, the Avalon Cigar line is just at the cusp of doing some big things. 

In the meantime, I will dig out a Torque Series Barracuda (60x7) and call it a day...


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## thebayratt (Jun 4, 2009)

Avalon Cigars said:


> • As far as setting up a mobile cigar sales outlet in proximity to (2) B&Ms, it wasn't us.


*I formally appolagize to you Gary.*
*I was wrong!*
:hug:​I had you mistaken with another B&M in your area. I am deeply sorry for mixing you up with the other fella.
I was told that I had the wrong person and am sorry for the mix up.

If I am wrong, I am man enough to admit to it; therefore I am. I was told by a few buddies that I was wrong after you had recognized me at a Studio Tobac event. I promiss you, I would have not been upset, one bit, if you had "called me out" on what I had said.

*Sorry Gary!!*


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## Goodkat (Sep 3, 2010)

I don't want to start anything or offend anyone, but this whole second page seems really suspicious. I'm not making accusations, but my "skeptic-meter" is in the red right now. I apologize if I'm mistaken.


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## Catdeddy (Feb 13, 2005)

thebayratt said:


> *I formally appolagize to you Gary.*
> *I was wrong!*
> :hug:​I had you mistaken with another B&M in your area. I am deeply sorry for mixing you up with the other fella.
> I was told that I had the wrong person and am sorry for the mix up.
> ...


:tu

And guess what--the same guy (other guy, not Gary/Avalon) did it again at Talladega.


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## Abe601 (Dec 18, 2010)

thebayratt said:


> *I formally appolagize to you Gary.*
> *I was wrong!*
> :hug:​I had you mistaken with another B&M in your area. I am deeply sorry for mixing you up with the other fella.
> I was told that I had the wrong person and am sorry for the mix up.
> ...


Gary says he appreciates you owning up to the error.


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## primetime76 (Feb 8, 2011)

I still have yet to see Avalon cigars for sale anywhere...


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## Abe601 (Dec 18, 2010)

primetime76 said:


> I still have yet to see Avalon cigars for sale anywhere...


Being a boutique brand, I am not sure if out of the 120 stores it was being sold in, if any were located in NH. But alas...


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## ChefTom (Jul 18, 2011)

I just won a $200,000 verdict against the parent company of Avalon Cigars (James Day Tobacco). I hope they are doing well and in business. Then I can collect my verdict. But...since they didn't even show up for the court date, I doubt they are doing all that well.


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## thebayratt (Jun 4, 2009)

ChefTom said:


> I just won a $200,000 verdict against the parent company of Avalon Cigars (James Day Tobacco). I hope they are doing well and in business. Then I can collect my verdict. But...since they didn't even show up for the court date, I doubt they are doing all that well.


$200,000 is alot of cigars!!.......??


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## ChefTom (Jul 18, 2011)

thebayratt said:


> $200,000 is alot of cigars!!.......??


It is a whole lot of cigars...but I'd rather have my cash back.


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## thebayratt (Jun 4, 2009)

ChefTom said:


> It is a whole lot of cigars...but I'd rather have my cash back.


You must have invested in the parent company then.

A Davidoff first order is $45K, so you must have invested in the company. Sorry you lost the cash.


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## ChefTom (Jul 18, 2011)

I wasn't an investor. I was the first founder. After I got in a dispute with Gary Hilton, he and the other shareholders held a meeting and voted me out. After that, they sold my stock to a group of investors and instead of returning the proceeds from the sale of MY property (the stock) to ME, they kept it and spent it. Three years later (after the money was LONG gone) the court sided with me and said that the money should have gone to me. Too bad there is no money left that I can find. We are now looking into what assets we can seize in lieu of the cash. So far...nothing. But we're still looking.



thebayratt said:


> You must have invested in the parent company then.
> 
> A Davidoff first order is $45K, so you must have invested in the company. Sorry you lost the cash.


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## Abe601 (Dec 18, 2010)

Good luck on your collection Tom.


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## ChefTom (Jul 18, 2011)

I'm going to need it. We seriously can't find any assets. We can't even find a headquarters location where the assets might be. It doesn't stop us from looking.



Abe601 said:


> Good luck on your collection Tom.


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## mickey1275 (Nov 7, 2008)

ChefTom said:


> I'm going to need it. We seriously can't find any assets. We can't even find a headquarters location where the assets might be. It doesn't stop us from looking.


Tom, you can't possibly be serious. There is no record of a judgement against James Day Tobacco, Avalon or any other party to the alledged suit. I suggest that you speak with your attorney because he/she has clearly left you confused.

And, you know exactly where to find the founder of Avalon. He is at 1220 East Northside Drive, Jackson, MS 39211, 6 days a week.
Regards,
Tyler


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## ChefTom (Jul 18, 2011)

mickey1275 said:


> Tom, you can't possibly be serious. There is no record of a judgement against James Day Tobacco, Avalon or any other party to the alledged suit. I suggest that you speak with your attorney because he/she has clearly left you confused.
> 
> And, you know exactly where to find the founder of Avalon. He is at 1220 East Northside Drive, Jackson, MS 39211, 6 days a week.
> Regards,
> Tyler


Tyler, cut and paste the link below to see that you are very, very wrong.

tomramsey.com/Documents/Ramsey-v-JamesDay001.pdf

Apparently you shouldn't open your mouth without checking your facts. And for the record, all you have to do to see the originals is go to the courthouse and ask for the file on Civil Action # 2008-695 S/2 In the Chancery Court of Hinds County, Mississippi, first Judicial District Judge Singletary. And I know where Gary is, we just can't find any assets of James Day Tobacco.


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## ChefTom (Jul 18, 2011)

ChefTom said:


> Tyler, cut and past the link below to see that you are very, very wrong. tomramsey.com/Documents/Ramsey-v-JamesDay001.pdf Apparently you shouldn't open your mouth without checking your facts. And for the record, all you have to do to see the originals is go to the courthouse and ask for the file on Civil Action # 2008-695 S/2 In the Chancery Court of Hinds County, Mississippi, first Judicial District Judge Singletary. And I know where Gary is, we just can't find any assets of James Day Tobacco.


Apparently, I can't post a link on this site until I have 30 posts. So, If anyone on here would like to post the link for me, the url is tomramsey.com/Documents/Ramsey-v-JamesDay001.pdf

That is a PDF of the Order Granting Counterplaintiff's Motion for Partial Summary Judgment in the amount of $206,250.00

In layman's terms, that is the paperwork from the court showing that I did indeed win a judgment against James Day Tobacco (Avalon Cigars) and that it is only a PARTIAL judgment. I am still going after the company for the rest of the suit. Like I said, we can't find any assets so far, but getting the judgment is the first step.


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## ChefTom (Jul 18, 2011)

mickey1275 said:


> ...Tom, you can't possibly be serious...
> Tyler


Still think I'm not serious?


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## ChefTom (Jul 18, 2011)

mickey1275 said:


> ...There is no record of a judgement against James Day Tobacco, Avalon or any other party to the alledged suit. I suggest that you speak with your attorney because he/she has clearly left you confused...Tyler


What happened? Cat got your tongue?


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## Austin_Smoker (Feb 11, 2010)

Tom (and other mixed company), I apologize in advance but feel obligated to inform you that this site is not a place to publicly settle your disputes. Although the fireworks and sideshow have been entertaining, this detracts from the greater purpose of this site, which is to provide members with a forum to discuss, educate and share the lifestyle of cigars with one another. I personally would prefer to not see any more of this public quarrel play out on our forum, as I see that all of you are new members that only joined to the site to argue with one another. 

I apologize to my fellow forum members if you disagree, but I would call for this thread to be ended as it has gotten too far away from it's intended purpose, which was inquiring as to whether or not the cigars were good.


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## primetime76 (Feb 8, 2011)

Have to agree with Blake...good talk bro!


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## ChefTom (Jul 18, 2011)

Blake - My apologies to the board. Just wanted to give an honest answer to a question about the state of company. The Tyler guy got my dander up when he accused me of posting falsehoods. As you can probably surmise, the whole process has been quite frustrating. As far as the cigars go, they are great smokes. I've enjoyed every one I've ever had, even the prototypes we decided to keep off the market. The original Miami-rolled sticks made by El Titan de Bronze were truly fantastic. I wish those were still available. The closest thing to them are the sticks that El Titan still rolls under their own brand. Best regards - Tom


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## mickey1275 (Nov 7, 2008)

ChefTom said:


> Tyler, cut and paste the link below to see that you are very, very wrong.
> 
> tomramsey.com/Documents/Ramsey-v-JamesDay001.pdf
> 
> Apparently you shouldn't open your mouth without checking your facts. And for the record, all you have to do to see the originals is go to the courthouse and ask for the file on Civil Action # 2008-695 S/2 In the Chancery Court of Hinds County, Mississippi, first Judicial District Judge Singletary. And I know where Gary is, we just can't find any assets of James Day Tobacco.


Tom:
I was finally able to open your link. I stand corrected on the judgement part and willing admit that I was not able to find it on the Hinds County site and was wrong.

However, back to my other point, you should try a subpoena for the financial statements, accounts and account balances of James Day and any listing of assets and liabilities. The principal in James Day is Gary Hilton and he can be served at 1220 Northside Dr. Jackson, MS 39211 after 1:00 6 days a week.


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## buckwylde (Jun 25, 2009)

Never heard of these...will have to keep eyes peeled


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## Zogg (Aug 31, 2010)

buckwylde said:


> Never heard of these...will have to keep eyes peeled


id read the whole thread first LOL

i was thinking the same thing, now im just confused :???:


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## smirak (Jul 9, 2011)

This is awesome. Some other publicity for my home state, and home metropolitan area (I'm from Florence and live in Madison currently...when I'm not in Iraq). It's good to see something other than the fact that we are the fattest state (again)!

That said, I called Renegade about a week ago to inquire if they had any god deals they'd be willing to let me in on (my pay of course) to help out since I'm in Iraq. There is a unit from MS which includes upwards of 300 soldiers from the state of MS that are deployed over here to the base that I'm located at. I talked with someone there, and was told I'd be called back, but I haven't gotten a response. 

All that said, I haven't tried any Avalon cigars.


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## ChefTom (Jul 18, 2011)

mickey1275 said:


> ...you should try a subpoena for the financial statements, accounts and account balances of James Day and any listing of assets and liabilities. The principal in James Day is Gary Hilton and he can be served at 1220 Northside Dr. Jackson, MS 39211 after 1:00 6 days a week.


Thanks for the info, but we know where to find Gary and we'll serve him with a subpoena at the appropriate time. We asked for all of that information in discovery and it was never handed over to us.


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## Abe601 (Dec 18, 2010)

This thread started as a thread dedicated to the discussion of Avalon Cigars. Obviously they are not readily available at this current time. The thread took several interesting twists and turns due to people throwing rumors and conjecture. I felt the thread had outlived it's purpose some time ago. It has been agreed that people enjoy the cigar and that should be sufficient. It has also been stated that the cigars are available at several retailers... So what is the real issue here? If people want to bash Gary Hilton - then they have overstepped and stepped outside of the realm of this post. 

I do not know the legal action(s) of Tom Ramsey or anyone else. I do know I enjoy the line of cigars produced by Avalon. Thanks to you Tom for whatever you brought to the table before you were summarily removed (or ousted) from the organization. I do know Mike Adams deserves the lions share of the credit for crafting such ingenious smokes.

This thread can be closed or not... The choice is yours ... If you wnt to continue to talk aboutthemerits of the line... We can do such... Otherwise ... Ithasgotten old and tired.


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