# SCHIP



## TonyToro (Dec 13, 2008)

Hi Folks,

I noticed on Lew's site that he has a write up on what appears to be potentially bad TAX news for us cigar smokers. Just thought I'd pass it on so more can see it. I'm afraid we are facing a big price increase when this thing passes. The dumbest thing about it, how do you fund a program that is forever growing larger by taxing an item that will surely see a big sales decline when the new taxes are added on to said product? I guess you have to be a politician to justify that logic?


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## houdini (Feb 6, 2008)

Stock up because this is inevitable. Obama has stated it will be his first order of business when he gets into office. It is unfortunately, another tax burden to fund a socialist concept.

:hn


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## heavyd (Jun 16, 2008)

SCHIP is the least of our worries as far as the "redistribution of wealth" goes. Stand by, folks :tu


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## smokeyandthebandit05 (Dec 29, 2007)

I cant believe SCHIP is really happening but keep your powder dry boys


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## PipesandGOP (Feb 7, 2008)

NC's state tobacco taxes just went up quite a bit here recently. I know it's nothing to you guys up north who are already paying out the nose but it's really starting to hit here... and as has been said, with this new "administration" I'm sure new hikes on the federal level are soon to come.


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## Jimbo14 (Aug 31, 2008)

About time you US boys got hit by the tax like the rest of us from around the world 

Just kidding, sorry to hear about it - tax can be very unfair... 

When it comes in just try to think of the tax dollars going to hospitals and schools (thats how I sleep at night)


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## PipesandGOP (Feb 7, 2008)

Jimbo14 said:


> About time you US boys got hit by the tax like the rest of us from around the world
> 
> Just kidding, sorry to hear about it - tax can be very unfair...
> 
> When it comes in just try to think of the tax dollars going to hospitals and schools (thats how I sleep at night)


Please (and yea I'm hoping there was sarcasm there) ... with a mother that's a school teacher and two aunts who are doctors and one of their brothers being a nurse... along with another in risk management for a local hospital; the waste that goes on should be a crime.

Think about this- at the end of every school year, the principal calls all the teachers in for a conference (already wasting their time when it would be spent on schoolwork) to tell them that they have $x left for their budget to spend and they just have to spend it because if they don't it goes back in to the general fund. So what they do? Buy every off the wall program and set of books imaginable, all something else just to waste money and to take up more of the teachers time when they could be doing what? Anyone? Teaching.

Hospitals are the same way- catered meetings 2 times a week (sometimes more in other places) for doctors, bonuses for doctors who don't perform, programs for people who don't even pay taxes yet are perfectly capabable of working, illegal aliens getting free treatment while they don't pay taxes, wrecks caused by drunk illegal aliens, babies being popped out constantly fathered and mothered by illegals... the list goes on, but the root of it many times can be found in leeches on the system and poor management.

Here in NC the lottery was supposed to be the answer to all our education funding problems. Well now all that's happening is we have christmas scratch off tickets and on christmas day when i stop to get gas I see women sitting in their cars with the windows rolled up smoking cigarettes and scratching off tickets instead of being at home with their family... and yes, they're still complaining about needing more money for education. 
Healthcare will follow suit for sure.

Our only hope for this poor pathetic nation that's been ravaged by the evil rich man? The great Messiah- Rocko.


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## c2000 (Oct 16, 2003)

houdini said:


> Stock up because this is inevitable. Obama has stated it will be his first order of business when he gets into office. It is unfortunately, another tax burden to fund a socialist concept.
> 
> :hn


 Right on ,,this a done deal.. Well I can't think of anything better in a recession than to tax legal businesses out of existence..

Jerry in Minnesota.


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## Ozone89 (Dec 29, 2006)

The GREAT Messiah is going to heal us all.


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## Sergeant Smoky (Aug 28, 2007)

Looks like I will need a few bigger coolers for my life time supply.:chk



A few of these oughto do it.


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## Sergeant Smoky (Aug 28, 2007)

Also as a citizen of this country I don't mind paying taxes. The problem that I have with most taxes is that it is ment for one purpose but is spent for something else. For example SCHIP was intended to pay for health insurance to families with children, but with all the loop holes a same sex couple with no children somehow qualify for this benefit. Use the tax money the way it was proposed and we would all get along better. just my :2 and then some.


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## Brule (Aug 28, 2008)

As someone with medical problems and a low income, I really wish government would stop trying to "help" me. All the better that he's taxing one of the few (affordable) pleasures I do spurge on. Of course, if I could make money honestly, that would kill any help I now recieve. So until true recoverly it makes financial sense to not even try to work. Or to just cheat and not report income, which is what I've basicly been told to do by other people in my position. Too bad for me I try to do that entire "moral" and "honest" routine.... 

This cigar tax is just plain foolish and scary. I only wish tax happy politicians would look up "opprotunity cost" and maybe understand how a tax like this hurts everyone.


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## Namerifrats (Jan 24, 2008)

I got the JR Catalog with the big S-CHIP on the front. I guess we're just all screwed.


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## fsjonsey (May 23, 2008)

*WE CAN STOP THIS!*

There is only one thing we, as American citizens, can do to prevent this bill from passing and becoming law.

*CALL YOUR CONGRESSMAN AND SENATOR, AND TELL EVERY OTHER BOTL YOU KNOW TO DO THE SAME!

*Explain to them that a cigar tax increase of this magnitude, in this economy, could put hundreds, possibly thousands, of hardworking Americans out of work, and could possibly lead to massive increases in unemployment in Central and South America, specifically Honduras, The Dominican Repulic, and especially Nicaragua, a country that has recently voted Daniel Ortega and the Sandinistas back into power. Ortega is beginning to become openly hostile towards the United States, and any action we take that would put Nicaraguan workers out on the street is basically putting political capital right into his hands. The last thing the US needs is for Central America to become destabilized, and imposing a draconian tax on the products of an industry that employs many Central Americans would do just that. The SCHIP cigar tax may also have the undesired side effect of causing illegal importation of Cuban cigars and other off shore black market tobacco products to skyrocket, which in turn would cause US Customs department spending to drastically increase. Even though this tax increase would bring more revenue into the already bloated SCHIP program, the money needed to negate the economic costs and increases in Customs and tobacco enforcement would be massive.


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## epyon26 (Dec 16, 2007)

SCHIP is :BS, I'v said once and I'll say it again Its time for us cigar and pipe smokers to load up the AK and go to war. :gn


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## dennis569 (Jan 16, 2007)

Is this going to affect pipe tobacco as well?
I've been really stocking up on cigars, please don't tell my
wife I have to stock up on pipe tobacco as well.


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## Hermit (Aug 5, 2008)

dennis569 said:


> Is this going to affect pipe tobacco as well?
> I've been really stocking up on cigars, please don't tell my
> wife I have to stock up on pipe tobacco as well.


That would be a big, *YES*.


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## BlueHavanaII (Feb 2, 2007)

fsjonsey said:


> *WE CAN STOP THIS!*
> 
> There is only one thing we, as American citizens, can do to prevent this bill from passing and becoming law.
> 
> ...


Great idea, but unfortunately, a lost cause. We already did that last year, but the Democratic Congress didn't listen. Only Bush saved us from this regressive sin tax with his vetos last year. Now that the Dems run the nation, expect this to be pushed through quickly. The only thing we can hope for now is a reduction on the cap.


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## fsjonsey (May 23, 2008)

BlueHavanaII said:


> Great idea, but unfortunately, a lost cause. We already did that last year, but the Democratic Congress didn't listen. Only Bush saved us from this regressive sin tax with his vetos last year. Now that the Dems run the nation, expect this to be pushed through quickly. The only thing we can hope for now is a reduction on the cap.


I thought the Democrats were against legislating morality? :chk


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## Cigary (Oct 19, 2007)

fsjonsey said:


> *WE CAN STOP THIS!*
> 
> There is only one thing we, as American citizens, can do to prevent this bill from passing and becoming law.
> 
> ...


Ditto this,,if you don't get involved you can't complain later. There is strength in numbers.


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## Arnie (Jan 5, 2009)

Guess I'm not the only one stocking up on cigars. 

The Democrats have sold themselves as being for freedom but they are the party of social engineering, more regulation, taxes, and less freedom. Pisses me off!


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## macjoe53 (Jul 8, 2007)

Arnie said:


> Guess I'm not the only one stocking up on cigars.
> 
> The Democrats have sold themselves as being for freedom but they are the party of social engineering, more regulation, taxes, and less freedom. Pisses me off!


Just spent another $150 today. Hope nothing good goes on sell to February.


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## Arnie (Jan 5, 2009)

macjoe53 said:


> Just spent another $150 today. Hope nothing good goes on sell to February.


Yup, same here. Bought 5 bundles of after-work smokes today. Day off cigars are on the way, too.


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## Cigar Man Andy (Aug 13, 2008)

&)#*%_(#%_(@(@*)%&)@&#(^%#@! Them.


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## Hermit (Aug 5, 2008)

Cigary said:


> Ditto this,,if you don't get involved you can't complain later. There is strength in numbers.


We don't have the numbers.
We are an unpopular minority.
Nobody who doesn't smoke gives a shit.


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## mdtaggart (Sep 22, 2006)

To do list:
1.) Stock up on cigars 
:ss


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## BlueHavanaII (Feb 2, 2007)

I hope everyone realizes that, even though SCHIP is looming, (IMHO) the JR Catalog hype is nothing more than a promotional gimmick.

Yes, cigars will go up in price (most probably 50 cents to a dollar) and, if a floor tax is implemented (which was not in the last bill passed and vetoed), many of us will be out of business.

But, read between the lines on this sale. It is a typical January Inventory Clearance Sale. I'm doing one myself here. 40% off clearance boxes. Calling it a S-CHIP sale may be good, because it brings attention to the issue, but it truly is a lost cause and JR is trying to capitalize on it.


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## rayray812 (Sep 9, 2008)

Hermit said:


> We don't have the numbers.
> We are an unpopular minority.
> Nobody who doesn't smoke gives a shit.


plus we are stinky and gross


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## rolokatz (Dec 27, 2006)

the dems didn't get elected because they were better - just different from what was. You vote one way - you get more of 'this' less of 'that'. vote the other way and is the opposite.

we're gonna be screwed by legislation and more taxes. it's just a matter of time. We don't have the popular moral high ground on this one. elections are popularity contests. No one who wants to stay popular will step up and say "This is ludicrous legislation, trying to fund a long term program with taxes on a product that other groups are trying to make 'go away', eliminating the funds for that program!"

it's almost impossible to fight a campaign that knowingly broadcasts pseudo-science as fact - typically right before referendum votes - leaving us no time to inform the voting public of the incorrect information that has been presented as 'undeniable, unchallengeable fact'. 

search on third-hand smoke and you'll see what I mean. it's not just what you inhale, or what others might breathe, but now it's the residual compounds that stay in the room after you've put your cigar/cigarette out.

good grief...

i'll be smoking cigars until they ban them - and then i'll smoke them after they repeal the ban. prohibition doesn't work, but he 'grabbers' are convinced that 'it'll work this time'... I have other things to do with my life - they apparently don't...

so the letter goes to the congressman and senator periodically, so my opinion is hopefully on file somewhere. maybe... one day, it'll do some good....


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## raralith (Sep 26, 2008)

BlueHavanaII said:


> Yes, cigars will go up in price (most probably 50 cents to a dollar) and, if a floor tax is implemented (which was not in the last bill passed and vetoed), many of us will be out of business.


The bill that was vetoed twice was changing the Federal tax from $0.0485/cigar to $3.00/cigar so unless retailers are willing to eat $2 in gross profit, cigar prices will most likely not go up only $1 dollar.


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## humbertothehorrible (Oct 3, 2006)

raralith said:


> The bill that was vetoed twice was changing the Federal tax from $0.0485/cigar to $3.00/cigar so unless retailers are willing to eat $2 in gross profit, cigar prices will most likely not go up only $1 dollar.


That's false. They've settled at somewhere around 40 to 50 cents a cigar at the wholesale level, according to what I've heard in the last 24 hours. Only a handful of people have actually seen the bill that will make it to a vote next week but it's fairly certain there will be no major surprises.


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## BlewSmoke.com (Sep 1, 2008)

raralith said:


> The bill that was vetoed twice was changing the Federal tax from $0.0485/cigar to $3.00/cigar so unless retailers are willing to eat $2 in gross profit, cigar prices will most likely not go up only $1 dollar.


As a retailer..here's the real challenge. We don't pay taxes on cigars at the end of the year..say. Like say we sell 12000 stick in year..it's not like we can save $3 x12,000 and even up our tax bill at the end of 2009. We are mandated to pay the tax upon arrival of the smoke in the store. So say we get in 50 boxes .. before we even have those 1250 sticks on the shelf, we'd need to pay the $3 per stick (whether we sell them or not). All the taxes are front end loaded. Currently the tax in AZ is 0.22 per stick. That's an increase of 1,363%. Owning a B&M is a labor of love anyhow. An increase of this nature would surely be devastating.


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## BlewSmoke.com (Sep 1, 2008)

humbertothehorrible said:


> That's false. They've settled at somewhere around 40 to 50 cents a cigar at the wholesale level, according to what I've heard in the last 24 hours. Only a handful of people have actually seen the bill that will make it to a vote next week but it's fairly certain there will be no major surprises.


The ceiling is the key. I've heard much the same...guess we'll see.


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## raralith (Sep 26, 2008)

BlewSmoke.com said:


> As a retailer..here's the real challenge. We don't pay taxes on cigars at the end of the year..say. Like say we sell 12000 stick in year..it's not like we can save $3 x12,000 and even up our tax bill at the end of 2009. We are mandated to pay the tax upon arrival of the smoke in the store. So say we get in 50 boxes .. before we even have those 1250 sticks on the shelf, we'd need to pay the $3 per stick (whether we sell them or not). All the taxes are front end loaded. Currently the tax in AZ is 0.22 per stick. That's an increase of 1,363%. Owning a B&M is a labor of love anyhow. An increase of this nature would surely be devastating.


This is an increase in the Federal tax so you need to pay your state tax too. This matters if you do a lot of online business since you don't need to tax when it's out of state, but a Federal tax is everything.

Either way, your cost of goods might go up $3. It's even worse that it's front loaded and you need to pay it first. In your situation though, reguardless if you pay the tax up front or not, if it costs you $3 more per cigar, how will you charge your customers? Are you willing to have less gross margin, or are you going to raises prices accordingly to the tax? I am quite interested in your perspective as a B&M owner.


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## BlewSmoke.com (Sep 1, 2008)

That's a catch 22 question. I don't know what we would
do yet. Obviously it's straight econimics. The prices would increase to what the market will bear. 

Currently, all my prices are listed without tax. I pass it to the customer as the cigar sells and not inflate the price of the individual stick on the shelf. So the recop is delayed and I basically eat the difference on unsold sticks. I guess to avoid sticker shock i'd have to price my $1.25 Quaroms at $4.25/ea federal tax included. How much can drop new price of that Quarom now to still maintain a profit? I think it would it would probably be a nationwide repricing and level setting across the board. The idea would be that a Quarom is no longer a $1.25 stick with a $3.00 federal tax....but a it's really a $4.25 stick with a $0.22 state tax.


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## humbertothehorrible (Oct 3, 2006)

BlewSmoke.com said:


> As a retailer..here's the real challenge. We don't pay taxes on cigars at the end of the year..say. Like say we sell 12000 stick in year..it's not like we can save $3 x12,000 and even up our tax bill at the end of 2009. We are mandated to pay the tax upon arrival of the smoke in the store. So say we get in 50 boxes .. before we even have those 1250 sticks on the shelf, we'd need to pay the $3 per stick (whether we sell them or not). *All the taxes are front end loaded. Currently the tax in AZ is 0.22 per stick. That's an increase of 1,363%.* Owning a B&M is a labor of love anyhow. An increase of this nature would surely be devastating.


You touch on an interesting point. We've been speaking with manufacturers about itemizing the federal tax on cigars after the bill gets passed. If not, shops that pay a state excise tax on cigars will have to pay that tax OVER the federal tax instead of just the cigars, making it even harder for tobacconists in the high tax states like NJ, NY, MN, and CA to compete with out of state shippers. Very few people have touched on this issue.


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## BlewSmoke.com (Sep 1, 2008)

Ideally (if we're forced into having a FED tax at $3 a stick)...having the federal tax included from the MFG would be the way to go. That puts everyone on the same playing field at least in the US. It would shift some of the cost responsibility on the MFG's to wholesale at a more competitive price to US companies as well if they want to keep the market share.


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## humbertothehorrible (Oct 3, 2006)

BlewSmoke.com said:


> Ideally (if we're forced into having a FED tax at $3 a stick)...having the federal tax included from the MFG would be the way to go. That puts everyone on the same playing field at least in the US. It would shift some of the cost responsibility on the MFG's to wholesale at a more competitive price to US companies as well if they want to keep the market share.


I disagree. Your cost as a retailer would still be the same. But you'd be at a huge disadvantage if you're paying a state tax on top of it.

For argument's sake, let's run a comparison on what people pay in NJ..

ABC cigar (Itemized)
Wholesale price = $1.00
Fed Excise tax = $0.50
NJ Excise Tax = $0.30 (30%)
Total Cost = $1.80

ABC cigar (non-Itemized)
Wholesale price = $1.50 ($1.00 + $0.50)
NJ Excise tax = $0.45 (30% of WHL Price)
Total Cost = $1.95

Multiply that by a box of 20 or 25 and they end up with a large chunk of change they shouldn't have to spend.


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## BlewSmoke.com (Sep 1, 2008)

humbertothehorrible said:


> I disagree. Your cost as a retailer would still be the same. But you'd be at a huge disadvantage if you're paying a state tax on top of it.
> 
> For argument's sake, let's run a comparison on what people pay in NJ..
> 
> ...


Well...that's because the NJ Excise tax is a flat 30% tax. In AZ.. it's a single $0.22 per stick. So guess it depends on where in the country you are.


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## BlueHavanaII (Feb 2, 2007)

Couple of points:

-As mentioned, I'm hearing that the cap on cigars will be about 45 cents. Still out of line, but probably manageable.

-Currently the cap is 5 cents. This is paid at the manufacturer level and I expect that the new tax will be the same, so it is essentially transparent to both the retailer and the consumer.

-If this is true, expect the increase to be built in to MSRP, which would translate into a 90 cent increase on most premium cigars.


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## humbertothehorrible (Oct 3, 2006)

BlueHavanaII said:


> -If this is true, expect the increase to be built in to MSRP, which would translate into a 90 cent increase on most premium cigars.


Which brings up the other point I meant to make. Many B&M retailers engage in this practice of keystoning the tax, essentially profiting off of it. Does more harm than good and creates confusion as to what the true SRP of the cigar would be from state to state.


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## BlueHavanaII (Feb 2, 2007)

humbertothehorrible said:


> Which brings up the other point I meant to make. Many B&M retailers engage in this practice of keystoning the tax, essentially profiting off of it. Does more harm than good and creates confusion as to what the true SRP of the cigar would be from state to state.


Well, the bills have to be paid and the tax is part of the cost of goods. I keystone from the manufacturer, but pass the state OTP tax on at cost. Remember, most B&Ms are small mom and pop type businesses. I am still using my HELOC to supplement my meager draw from the business (and have no life, so no excess bills... just food and insurance).


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## humbertothehorrible (Oct 3, 2006)

BlueHavanaII said:


> Well, the bills have to be paid and the tax is part of the cost of goods. I keystone from the manufacturer, but pass the state OTP tax on at cost. Remember, most B&Ms are small mom and pop type businesses. I am still using my HELOC to supplement my meager draw from the business (and have no life, so no excess bills... just food and insurance).


Understood. But the decision to keystone the tax should be left to the retailer. Not the manufacturer. Don't you think? Besides, as I pointed out before, the landed cost goes up (or could go up) a certain percentage if you're paying a tax on a tax. In your case, that doesn't matter because you're paying a flat tax of 21.8 cents per cigar but who's to say that won't change to a percentage off invoice like many other states are doing?


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## BlueHavanaII (Feb 2, 2007)

humbertothehorrible said:


> Understood. But the decision to keystone the tax should be left to the retailer. Not the manufacturer. Don't you think? Besides, as I pointed out before, the landed cost goes up (or could go up) a certain percentage if you're paying a tax on a tax. In your case, that doesn't matter because you're paying a flat tax of 21.8 cents per cigar but who's to say that won't change to a percentage off invoice like many other states are doing?


Georgia is not flat... 23% of wholesale. And if the fed tax is added to wholesale, the state will receive more money as well, since the tax will be taxed!


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## humbertothehorrible (Oct 3, 2006)

BlueHavanaII said:


> Georgia is not flat... 23% of wholesale. And if the fed tax is added to wholesale, the state will receive more money as well, since the tax will be taxed!


My point exactly. But this argument could very well be moot as I just heard that it is illegal for a manufacturer to itemize a federal tax on an invoice. I'm researching a little more.


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## Acalla (Aug 13, 2008)

raralith said:


> The bill that was vetoed twice was changing the Federal tax from $0.0485/cigar to $3.00/cigar so unless retailers are willing to eat $2 in gross profit, cigar prices will most likely not go up only $1 dollar.


I thought the increase on one of the last bills passed (and, thankfully, vetoed) was 53% per cigar at the wholesale level w/ a $3 cap. Thus a $1.00 cigar is now $1.53 and a $7.00 cigar is now $10.00 at the wholesale level. Not that any of these numbers are really any better.

On a side note, what would stop a manufacturer from selling a super-premium cigar for less money but requiring you to buy the box now? That $4.00 cigar is now $1.00 but you have to buy 25 and the cigar box (or a cigar ribbon for bundles) now costs $75 dollars... and you have to buy it. I am sure this won't work but one can dream...:chk


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## raralith (Sep 26, 2008)

I only read the section reguarding price increases, not the whole document, but I didn't see anything about caps. Can anyone quote the excert about the cap? Or is this wishful thinking?


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## humbertothehorrible (Oct 3, 2006)

raralith said:


> I only read the section reguarding price increases, not the whole document, but I didn't see anything about caps. Can anyone quote the excert about the cap? Or is this wishful thinking?


Cap will be around 40 cents.


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## Acalla (Aug 13, 2008)

humbertothehorrible said:


> Cap will be around 40 cents.


Is it sad that 40 cents sounds great (compared to what was proposed)?


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## BlueHavanaII (Feb 2, 2007)

Acalla said:


> Is it sad that 40 cents sounds great (compared to what was proposed)?


Just figure that all cigars will go up $1 (after taxes and margins).
At 54% just about every cigar will be taxed at the maximum


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## humbertothehorrible (Oct 3, 2006)

THIS JUST IN!!!

SCHIP Legislation Introduced Including 
40-cent Cap on Premium Cigars International Premium Cigar & Pipe Retailers Association (IPCPR) 


Bill Looks for Easy Passage Through House of Representatives--House May Vote as Early as Thursday

January 13, 2009 - The latest version of the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP), HR2, has been officially introduced in House Ways & Means Committee. The industry compromise on the revised tax rate on large cigars has been incorporated into HR2. The new tax rate will be 52.4% with a maximum tax cap on any one cigar at 40 cents per cigar. 

In previous versions of SCHIP legislation, the tax cap rate held at $3 per cigar. Your trade association and its federal lobbyists, working in conjunction with the Cigar Association of America, our industry came together to agressively challenge the distasterous, proposed $3 tax cap, and get the substantially reduced to the more sustainable 40-cent tax cap. 

The IPCPR also recognizes the work of the associate members of your association, who were a key component in educating to Congress on our industry. Thank you to our retail members and their customers for supporting our aggressive grassroots efforts. 

While HR2 looks to breeze through the House, it may have a slower journey through the Senate, though we do not expect any direct changes to the tax cap rate. 

SCHIP Legislation Details

The new tax rates are effective April 1, 2009;

The cigarette tax rate goes from $.39 per pack to $1.00 per pack;
The tax on snuff goes from $.585 per pound to $1.50 per pound;
The tax on pipe tobacco goes from $1.0969 per pound to $2.8126 per pound; 
The tax on RYO goes from $1.0969 per pound to $24.62 per pound (not a typo). 
Additionally the definition of RYO has been expanded to include cigar wrappers to address the "blunt wraps" issue;
The tax change to small cigars (cigars weighing less the three (3) pounds per thousand will be phased in over five (5) years at the following rates per year: 
2009 & 2010 - $.25 per pack 
2011 & 2012 - $.50 per pack 
2013 & 2014 - $.75 per pack 
2015 and beyond - $1.00 per pack

We were successful in continuing to have the floor tax NOT apply to large cigars; however it does pertain to any other tobacco products. 
The International Premium Cigar & Pipe Retailers Association (IPCPR) is a not-for-profit trade association organized as the advocate for the independent retail tobacconist and recognized as the "Voice of Authority and Reason" on premium tobacco related issues. 

International Premium Cigar & Pipe Retailers Association (IPCPR)
Chris McCalla
Legislative Director


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