# Trade Between US and Cuba



## jeremy023

Hope this is "legal" as I am not discussing any particular Cuban Cigar here. Did anyone else see this? There is a blurb about purchasing of Cubans in this:

"Other announced changes permit U.S. and Cuban banks to build relationships and travelers to use credit and debit cards. U.S. travelers will be allowed to import up to $400 worth of goods from Cuba, including $100 in alcohol and tobacco -- even Cuban cigars. "

Cuba releases Alan Gross; Obama to overhaul relations - CNN.com

THOUGHTS?


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## lvfcrook1503

IF it's true...I hope it stays around $100. Don't want to see the major surge in people buying cubans. Going to drive up the price, and down the quality due to demand


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## Tobias Lutz

jeremy023 said:


> Hope this is "legal" as I am not discussing any particular Cuban Cigar here. Did anyone else see this? There is a blurb about purchasing of Cubans in this:
> 
> "Other announced changes permit U.S. and Cuban banks to build relationships and travelers to use credit and debit cards. U.S. travelers will be allowed to import up to $400 worth of goods from Cuba, including $100 in alcohol and tobacco -- even Cuban cigars. "
> 
> Cuba releases Alan Gross; Obama to overhaul relations - CNN.com
> 
> THOUGHTS?


Someone beat you to it, bro


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## TonyBrooklyn

jeremy023 said:


> Hope this is "legal" as I am not discussing any particular Cuban Cigar here. Did anyone else see this? There is a blurb about purchasing of Cubans in this:
> 
> "Other announced changes permit U.S. and Cuban banks to build relationships and travelers to use credit and debit cards. U.S. travelers will be allowed to import up to $400 worth of goods from Cuba, including $100 in alcohol and tobacco -- even Cuban cigars. "
> 
> Cuba releases Alan Gross; Obama to overhaul relations - CNN.com
> 
> THOUGHTS?


I found this much more entertaining it tells of a power hungry individual. Who starved his people while he grew. Rich old and fat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Former bodyguard Juan Reinaldo Sánchez writes that leader ran country like a cross between medieval overlord and Louis XV










Fidel Castro wrote for communist party newspaper Granma but gradually vanished from public view. Photograph: Alex Castro/AP*3,979*
_*Comments*

433_

_Fidel Castro lived like a king with his own private yacht, a luxury Caribbean island getaway complete with dolphins and a turtle farm, and travelled with two personal blood donors, a new book claims._
_In La Vie Cachée de Fidel Castro (Fidel Castro's Hidden Life), former bodyguard Juan Reinaldo Sánchez, a member of Castro's elite inner circle, says the Cuban leader ran the country as his personal fiefdom like a cross between a medieval overlord and Louis XV._
_Sánchez, who was part of Castro's praetorian guard for 17 years, describes a charismatic and intelligent but manipulative, cold-blooded, egocentric Castro prone to foot-stamping temper tantrums. He claims the vast majority of Cubans were unaware their leader enjoyed a lifestyle beyond the dreams of many Cubans and at odds with the sacrifices he demanded of them._
_"Contrary to what he has always said, Fidel has never renounced capitalist comforts or chosen to live in austerity. Au contraire, his mode de vie is that of a capitalist without any kind of limit," he writes. "He has never considered that he is obliged by his speech to follow the austere lifestyle of a good revolutionary."_
_Sánchez claims he suffered Castro's ruthlessness first hand when he fell out of favour, was branded a traitor, "thrown in jail like a dog", tortured and left in a cockroach infested cell, after asking to retire. Released from prison, Sánchez followed the well-worn route of Cuban exiles to America in 2008. "Until the turn in the 1990s I'd never asked too many questions about the workings of the system &#8230; that's the problem with military people &#8230; as a good soldier, I did my job and my best and that was enough to make me happy," he writes._
_The book, published on Wednesday, has been written with French journalist Axel Gyldén, a senior reporter at L'Express magazine. Gyldén admits Sánchez has a large axe to grind with Castro, but insists he has checked the Cuban's story._
_"This is the first time someone from Castro's intimate circle, someone who was part of the system and a first-hand witness to these events, has spoken. It changes the image we have of Fidel Castro and not just how his lifestyle contradicts his words, but of Castro's psychology and motivations," Gyldén told the Guardian._
_This is not the first time it has been claimed that Castro enjoys great wealth. In 2006 Forbes magazine listed the Cuban leader in its top 10 richest "Kings, Queens and Dictators", citing unnamed officials who claimed Castro had amassed a fortune by skimming profits from a network of state-owned companies. The Cuban leader vehemently denied the report._
_Castro's long reign ended in 2006 when he was stricken with what was believed to be diverticulitis, an intestinal ailment, and handed power to his younger brother Raúl, who had served as defence minister. He officially ceded power to Raúl in 2008._
_Fidel continued penning columns for the Communist party newspaper Granma but gradually vanished from public view, fuelling rumours he had died, only to surface for occasional, fleeting appearances. Raul has made cautious economic reforms but kept tight control._
_Visitors such as Ignacio Ramonet, the French journalist who has interviewed Castro at length, have depicted an austere lifestyle of reading, exercise, simple meals and modest home comforts._
_But Sánchez, now 65 and living in America, claims Castro enjoyed a private island - Cayo Piedra, south of the Bay of Pigs, scene of the failed CIA-sponsored invasion of 1961 - describing it as a "garden of Eden" where he entertained selected guests including the writer Gabríel Garcia Márquez, and enjoyed spear-fishing._
_The former bodyguard says Castro sailed to the island on his luxury yacht, the Aquarama II, fitted out with rare Angolan wood and powered by four motors sent by the Soviet president Leonid Brezhnev._
_"Castro would sit in his large black leather director's armchair ... a glass of Chivas Regal on the rocks (his favourite drink) in his hand," writes Sánchez._
_Other presidential properties, he writes, included an "immense" estate in Havana complete with rooftop bowling alley, basketball court and fully equipped medical centre, and a luxury bungalow with private marina on the coast._
_"Fidel Castro also let it be known and suggested that the revolution gave him no rest, no time for pleasure and that he ignored, indeed despised, the bourgeois concept of holidays. He lies," he adds._
_Ann Louise Bardach, a veteran Cuba chronicler who has interviewed Castro, said that as a lifelong hypochondriac he enjoyed the best food and medical care but did not have a lavish lifestyle. He was born into money and went into politics for power, she said. "He didn't do it for the money. He's not swinging from the chandeliers."_
_His current home, just outside Havana, had four bedrooms and would in the west be considered middle or upper-middle class, she said. Focusing on any material advantage he may enjoy missed a larger point, said Bardach, author of Without Fidel: a death foretold in Miami, Havana and Washington. "He owns the island of Cuba. It's his personal fiefdom."_
_Sánchez says Castro's dolce vita was a "crazy privilege" while Cubans suffered serious hardship in the 1990s as the economy "collapsed like a house of cards" after the disintegration of the Soviet Union and eastern bloc with which Havana had done almost 80% of its foreign business._
_His compatriots, he says, were also unaware of their leader's complicated love life, his womanising and subsequent tribe of at least nine children, not least because Cuban media was forbidden to mention them._
_The Cuban leader kept a gun at his feet when travelling in his Mercedes and never went anywhere without at least 10 bodyguards, including two "blood donors". At home he would get up late, and start work around midday "after a frugal breakast"._
_"His favourite film that he saw I don't know how many times was the interminable and soporific Soviet version of Tolstoy's War and Peace &#8230; which lasted at least five hours."_
_He recalls how Castro bugged everyone, including Hugo Chávez, and insisted his bodyguard jot down everything he did in a notebook "for history"._
_Sánchez says for nearly two decades he saw more of Castro than his own family. "He was a god. I drank all his words, believed all he said, followed him everywhere and would have died for him," he writes._
_He claims he finally realised that Castro considered Cuba "belonged" to him._
_"He was its master in the manner of a 19th century landowner. For him wealth was above all an instrument of power, of political survival, of personal protection."_
_Recalling how Castro kept Angolan diamonds in a Cohiba cigar box, he writes: "Sometimes, Fidel had a little of the mentality of a pirate of the Caribbean."_
_La Vie Cachée de Fidel Castro is published by Michel Lafon on Wednesday._


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## Bizumpy

^^^ Hate against Castro is why the embargo is still in place.


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## LostMason

I personally am in favor of opening trade with Cuba,I feel that the continuing dissagreement is more to Fidel nationalizing the tobacco plantations than it is to human rights violations.The accusations of HR issues has come more in the last ten to fifteen years and was not mentioned as reasons for the embargoes at the beginning.Did Fidel live like a king while demanding that the citizens sacrifice all,yes,but so did the Shah of Iran.The U.S. has repeatedly backed and supported leaders who were selfish,maniacle,and some who were downright crooked,Manuel Noriega comes to mind.We've opened trade and tourism with Vietnam and we were at war there,It's past time that we open these with Cuba.If for no other reason than by allowing tourism we will get a broader picture of living conditions and needs of the Cuban people,allow them to see the disparagement,and inequality,and act on it the way the people of the Soviet Union did.When Gorbachev sent farmers to the U.S. to learn modern farming,he opened the door to allow the Soviet people to see that the rest of the world was enjoying a much higher standard of living and they demanded change.


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## wabashcr

Bizumpy said:


> ^^^ Hate against Castro is why the embargo is still in place.


Well, and the fact that Cuban exiles and their supporters constitute a large, organized voting block in one of the most important swing states. Take a soft stance on Castro and it could cost you the entire election.


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## stonecutter2

wabashcr said:


> Well, and the fact that Cuban exiles and their supporters constitute a large, organized voting block in one of the most important swing states. Take a soft stance on Castro and it could cost you the entire election.


Given the hit the Democrats took in the midterms, and that Obama is a lame duck President, I guess it's the perfect storm to finally move forward with this.

I never thought I'd see the day that this process would start. Wow.


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## tnlawyer

wabashcr said:


> Well, and the fact that Cuban exiles and their supporters constitute a large, organized voting block in one of the most important swing states. Take a soft stance on Castro and it could cost you the entire election.


Yeah I said something similar in one of the other threads. Political suicide for 2016. I'm sure Hillary is pissed :lol:


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## HIM

Bizumpy said:


> ^^^ Hate against Castro is why the embargo is still in place.





wabashcr said:


> Well, and the fact that Cuban exiles and their supporters constitute a large, organized voting block in one of the most important swing states. Take a soft stance on Castro and it could cost you the entire election.


And honestly people haven't forgotten about the whole Cuban missile crisis down here. Your not so quick to forgive someone when they set up missiles 100 miles away from your house. To me thats as much the reason as the Castro's reign of power.


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## Billb1960

HIM said:


> And honestly people haven't forgotten about the whole Cuban missile crisis down here. Your not so quick to forgive someone when they set up *nuclear* missiles 100 miles away from your house. To me thats as much the reason as the Castro's reign of power.


FIFY


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## wabashcr

tnlawyer said:


> Yeah I said something similar in one of the other threads. Political suicide for 2016. I'm sure Hillary is pissed :lol:


Not necessarily. The younger generations of Cuban Americans are softening on this some. Bill wanted to open things up with them before they shot down the BTTR planes. That essentially slammed the door shut, and Cuba's defiance and crumbling economy after the collapse of the Soviet Union didn't help. I think she'd like to move in that direction, too, if she were to be elected. Better to have the guy before you break the ice and get the ball rolling. Then she can make empty campaign promises to Cuban Americans and not take on too much risk.


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## wabashcr

HIM said:


> And honestly people haven't forgotten about the whole Cuban missile crisis down here. Your not so quick to forgive someone when they set up missiles 100 miles away from your house. To me thats as much the reason as the Castro's reign of power.


You think so? I'm in no position to dispute that, but it was 50 years ago. I know FL has a large population of people who are old enough to remember that, and they do vote. I just wouldn't have thought it was still such a sore subject 50 years later.


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## tnlawyer

wabashcr said:


> Not necessarily. The younger generations of Cuban Americans are softening on this some. Bill wanted to open things up with them before they shot down the BTTR planes. That essentially slammed the door shut, and Cuba's defiance and crumbling economy after the collapse of the Soviet Union didn't help. I think she'd like to move in that direction, too, if she were to be elected. Better to have the guy before you break the ice and get the ball rolling. Then she can make empty campaign promises to Cuban Americans and not take on too much risk.


I dunno...the whole Elian Gonzalez thing kind of screwed Gore in FL. We shall see.


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## wabashcr

tnlawyer said:


> I dunno...the whole Elian Gonzalez thing kind of screwed Gore in FL. We shall see.


Very true. Although Hillary has the benefit of not being a part of the current administration, which Gore didn't have. And Elian Gonzalez was 15 years ago. Not an eternity, but enough has happened in those 15 years, that maybe opinions have softened a bit. I hope so, anyway, and not for cigars or for Hillary. I think it's in both countries' interests to establish a working diplomatic relationship.


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## NemeKriss

personally i think its great. cant wait to get my first legal cuban stick


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## tnlawyer

wabashcr said:


> You think so? I'm in no position to dispute that, but it was 50 years ago. I know FL has a large population of people who are old enough to remember that, and they do vote. I just wouldn't have thought it was still such a sore subject 50 years later.


There's a guy at work of Cuban descent. His grandparents live in FL and still hold a grudge.


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## Billb1960

NemeKriss said:


> personally i think its great. cant wait to get my first legal cuban stick


Don't hold your breath. The current agreement allows for up to $100 of tobacco per person and not for resale.


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## Entropydave

FWIW, and bearing in mind I'm a UKian.... I think it's great. The Cubans themselves have been deprived of trade and free movement and must be happy that the borders are going to open. My brother (UK resident) has holidayed there twice with his wife and reckon it's a pretty amazing place but on his own admission didnt venture out of the touristy areas.

There are also some amazing American cars there too.... nothing newer than 1961!

Sorry, a bit of a non-contributory post from me (as usual) but I think it's got to be a good thing.


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## lizardkingvpi

Embargo has ran it's course IMO. I'm just old enough to remember the Soviet Union collapsing and the fear a lot of Americans had over communism. It just seems, with the major powers out of the picture, keeping the embargo on Cuba seems a little outdated. USSR is no more, China is becoming more capitalist by the minute, and most communist states are smaller banana republics.


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## wabashcr

lizardkingvpi said:


> It just seems, with the major powers out of the picture, keeping the embargo on Cuba seems a little outdated.


There's a definite pissing match element to it. Since the Soviet Union was Cuba's only substantial trade partner, I think our government just assumed Cuba would flip in turn, and we'd "win." But the Castros are crazy old bastards, and have no problem riding out the rest of their lives in relative paradise while their people starve. It's hardly about the threat of communism for us anymore, just like the revolutionary ideas are an afterthought for them.


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## Herf N Turf

Just curious, has it not occurred to anyone that this thread really doesn't belong in General Cigar Discussion? The OP even said, "...not about cigars..."

I guess I go ahead and move it now...


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## HIM

wabashcr said:


> You think so? I'm in no position to dispute that, but it was 50 years ago. I know FL has a large population of people who are old enough to remember that, and they do vote. I just wouldn't have thought it was still such a sore subject 50 years later.


Living down here its part of the history at this point. Occasionally I even still see "take your missiles back to the mainland" bumper stickers. It may not be totally sore anymore but its certainly not forgotten either. They crossed a serious line and now they're dealing with the consequences. In the end I say forgive but don't forget. Too many people suffering for choices they didn't make.


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## Engineer99

I'm curious...Cuba trades with, and is open to the whole rest of the world, so why are the Cuban people not reaping the benefits of the entire world, minus the US, having access to their products and tourism? Why is the American embargo "holding them back" when the rest of the world visits and trades freely? I'm not adept in international politics, so this might seem naive to someone more savvy to the reality on the ground.


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## Billb1960

Engineer99 said:


> I'm curious...Cuba trades with, and is open to the whole rest of the world, so why are the Cuban people not reaping the benefits of the entire world, minus the US, having access to their products and tourism? Why is the American embargo "holding them back" when the rest of the world visits and trades freely? I'm not adept in international politics, so this might seem naive to someone more savvy to the reality on the ground.


Without getting too political this is the fallacy of a socialist society where the government controls all industry. Instead of a "workers paradise" you get a system whereby the lowest common denominator becomes the de facto standard.


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## wabashcr

Engineer99 said:


> I'm curious...Cuba trades with, and is open to the whole rest of the world, so why are the Cuban people not reaping the benefits of the entire world, minus the US, having access to their products and tourism? Why is the American embargo "holding them back" when the rest of the world visits and trades freely? I'm not adept in international politics, so this might seem naive to someone more savvy to the reality on the ground.


The US's GDP is nearly double any other single country's. Their big money makers (sugar, tobacco, tourism) are considered luxuries that many parts of the world can't afford to consume, at least in any measurable quantities. The rest of the world doesn't consume those things at the rate we do. And of course the US is 90 miles north, making it a natural trade partner geographically. I think before the embargo, something like 85% of Cuban exports went to the US.


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## arrington

Much better to have an ally or neutral country 90 miles from Florida than an enemy. Plus, they have all the Cuban cigars in the world..... the whole world.


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## LostMason

so on a side note,,,What happens to all these "Cuban"brand names such as Cohiba.Are we in for possable court battles ,or will the "hijackers" give over and re-brand their cigars?


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## HIM

wabashcr said:


> Their big money makers (sugar, tobacco, tourism)


I underlined a point I think doesn't get brought up and considered. I highly doubt the companies in America pumping out corn sugar, or all the other products its used in, want to see the market flooded with cheap cane sugar from Cuba. They could take a serious hit.



LostMason said:


> so on a side note,,,What happens to all these "Cuban"brand names such as Cohiba.Are we in for possable court battles ,or will the "hijackers" give over and re-brand their cigars?


Big messy legal situation is the only way I see it getting settled. Who knows how long thats going to take.


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## wabashcr

HIM said:


> I underlined a point I think doesn't get brought up and considered. I highly doubt the companies in America pumping out corn sugar, or all the other products its used in, want to see the market flooded with cheap cane sugar from Cuba. They could take a serious hit.


Especially with all the backlash against HCFS in the last several years. Consumers have been conditioned to think HCFS is bad (it probably is bad). The trend seems to be moving back to cane sugar already. You're right. Dump a bunch of lower priced Cuban sugar into the mix, and some politically connected people stand to lose quite a bit of money. I never really considered that.


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## AlanS

I believe the cigar of the year came from somewhere further south. Maybe 3 from ISOM in top 25? Coincidence


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## Adam

There will be some naming issues go to court, but since Altadis, who distributes RyJ, Montecristo, and H. Upmann, has purchased 50% of Habanos SA, I doubt those names will have any serious issues to resolve. Cohiba on the other hand...


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## Cigarer

Going to lose the mystique of cc. Same with moonshine and prohibition. Now that you can buy it readily available on the shelves it's only glamour is for the history And name of a previous legally unavailable product. The names and the like will be sorted out later. .. Now speaking of Moon shine. .


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## Keeper01

I'm in no way a fan of communist rulers and I believe that what Castro has done to the people of Cuba is no bueno, but the selfish side of me is looking forward to being able to acquire Habanos without all of the current hassle.


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## TCBSmokes

Today's news update..

U.S. loosens embargo on Cuba, making trade and travel easier - NY Daily News


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## gilroitto

European as I am I've been puffing Cubans for a while, but not mentioning them in this forum due to forum rules or culture (don't know which but understood I should avoid the subject). Is this changing now for this forum?


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## demuths1770

gilroitto said:


> European as I am I've been puffing Cubans for a while, but not mentioning them in this forum due to forum rules or culture (don't know which but understood I should avoid the subject). Is this changing now for this forum?


no because the embargo is still in effect but we do have a section where south of the island can be talked about more losely. it can not openly be disscused because america has a embaro with cuba and all trade with cuba is illega. puff is a american based forum


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## gilroitto

demuths1770 said:


> no because the embargo is still in effect but we do have a section where south of the island can be talked about more losely. it can not openly be disscused because america has a embaro with cuba and all trade with cuba is illega. puff is a american based forum


Ok, thanks for the info!


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## penna stogey

Good info.Thanks


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## nport21

My grandparents, who all 4 were born in Cuba, and 2 of my aunts, again born in Cuba, are not happy with the embargo being lifted. They don't see how it will actually benefit Cubans in anyway. All my family got off the island before Castro gained all his power. My grandmother still flies down about once a year to visit family. 

I think this will take a few years to actually effect Cubans the way Americans think it will.


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## BryanV

As much as I love Cuba and welcome Americans, I agree with nport21, it will be at least 10 years before we see any real change...


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## Adam

Change takes time. So because it will take time they shouldn't go through with it at all?


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## jasonrc25

I am not an expert and have not studied this that much, this is just my 2 cents worth. I have thought for a long time we should be doing something different with Cuba (and not because I smoke cigars), because the embargo was not doing anything. While not a justification, we do business all the time with other countries who treat their citizens just as bad. 

I know Europe could travel there, but with it being such a long flight, I don't imagine there were that great of numbers flying, especially if they can fly to other Caribbean islands that are more built up, but I could be wrong.

With the United States being able to go to Cuba, I would think once it is deemed safe, more Americans will flood the country, since it is so close and the allure of going to a place that was once off limits. With the Castro brothers both being in their 80s, they will not be around much longer, so the increase in American tourism (i.e. $$$) we can have a greater impact on the future of Cuba. They will have to modernize and build up its infrastructure and tourism industry, and the United States could use that as leverage.

With all that, I think the way the President went about it was wrong. We should have had millstones, that if meat, they would have gained something, but we didn’t. I will leave it at that to avoid any politics.


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## jasonrc25

NPORT21 I respect your opinion because you have a differant perspective than I will ever be able to have. I also agree with you that many may be over optimistic on how quick or easy it will be. I also think this could have done better, but this is what we got to work with. The sonner we start the sooner things improve. 

To change the senerio some, if North and South Korea could finally reunite, but it would take 10 years to get North Korea normalized should we still do it?


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## jasonrc25

nport21 said:


> My grandparents, who all 4 were born in Cuba, and 2 of my aunts, again born in Cuba, are not happy with the embargo being lifted. They don't see how it will actually benefit Cubans in anyway. All my family got off the island before Castro gained all his power. My grandmother still flies down about once a year to visit family.
> 
> I think this will take a few years to actually effect Cubans the way Americans think it will.


NPORT21 I respect your opinion because you have a differant perspective than I will ever be able to have. I also agree with you that many may be over optimistic on how quick or easy it will be. I also think this could have done better, but this is what we got to work with. The sonner we start the sooner things improve.

To change the senerio some, if North and South Korea could finally reunite, but it would take 10 years to get North Korea normalized should we still do it?


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## nport21

I was just saying that the older Cubans in America don't really see the embargo being lifted as anything good happening. But I think that will happen anywhere in the world with anything. Older generations know only 1 thing. As it is right now I think at least 2/3 of Cubans have only known Fidel Castro in power.

I think the long run is obviously a good thing...



jasonrc25 said:


> To change the senerio some, if North and South Korea could finally reunite, but it would take 10 years to get North Korea normalized should we still do it?


I think of course that it will be a good thing, just like USA and the ISOM. Both are similar in the way that older generations, and the people who only know the one dictator, will be hard to influence. It's easier to look in from the outside and see a problem then it is to be on the inside.


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