# Big News for CigarLive.com



## Stogie (Feb 13, 2007)

*Big News for CigarLive.com*

By: Daniel Lopez
Editor: Sibyl Hilton

Hello members! I am excited to announce the launch of the CigarLive expert cigar review panel! This is a milestone for our forum and I want to tell you about the new feature and describe how the idea was born.

Over the last year I have had many conversations with cigar manufacturers about rating products. I have gradually gained an understanding of the cigar rating process and formulated ideas about how we could improve the process. In CigarLive's first year we started the blind rating panels for members to participate in and give feedback to manufacturers. The blind rating panels got members involved and interested in the cigar community. Participants found the blind rating panels to be a lot of fun, allowing members direct input in the review process and providing their opinions of the cigars. I thought it was a great feature on CigarLive.com, and with the help of Bill Hood "MrGatorman", the system is working better to get feedback using the ICRS rating system on a 10-point scale.

Manufacturers expressed their interest in CigarLive developing an expert panel that would put out a 100 point rating. At first, the idea didn't seem to fit and I believed it was not needed for CigarLive.com at the time and I really needed to focus on other projects. I continued to talk with manufacturers and the subject kept coming up over and over again. During a trip to Nicaragua, one manufacturer sat down for a long talk with me about the future of CigarLive.com and how he felt "it was time to take it to the next level". To Mr. Leccia I say thank you for the push in this direction! Usually this phrase means more money and work. But, if it was a feature that would push our site deeper in the industry, I was all for it.

The idea kept coming up and I knew it was a path CigarLive needed to take. I thought about our success using Colin Ganley's ICRS Rating system and wondered how could it be modified for an expert panel of four or five reviewers. I wondered "What would we gain as a community for having such a panel? How could I pick the expert reviewers?" I found the answers were difficult and I imagined it would not be easy if I didn't have help. I kept the idea in the back of my mind and talked with Russ Hilton "Tekeeladude" and Bill Hood "MrGatorman" about the possibility.

Are you thinking what a logistical and financial nightmare? Initially, that's what I thought. 
Let's say I bought two boxes of cigars a month two different cigars, then shipped each of four panelist at least five cigars to each review for accurate and consistent rating. I was already financing and packaging the current tasting panels so I predicted this expert panel to amount to a greater financial stake and my wife wasn't going to believe I bought boxes for $20 each. Also, I had to consider another problem that has showed up in current tasting panels: some people like mild cigars and they should be rated accordingly.
I continued to discuss the expert tasting panel logistics with Russ and Bill for several weeks.

On one of my trips to Nicaragua, I was introduced by George Rico to Alex Svenson, the Chief Merchant buyer for Cigar.com, and paid close attention to his taste descriptions. As the buyer for Cigar.com, Alex has the opportunity to smoke anything he wants. I thought who better to discuss how to pursue the expert panel project? So I talked with Alex a few times and we discussed how to create a rating system appropriate for the cigar industry. Little did I know I was speaking with a person that had the same drive to want to take on the task of helping to create this as well. You see, Alex and I share the belief that we have no boundaries. Alex said the panel of cigar experts would have to be diverse but consistent and with little turnover over the years to come.

The surprise came when I contacted Alex about supplying the cigars for our expert panel. He quickly and generously agreed to exchange any cigar we wanted for a small link to purchase the reviewed cigar donated by Cigar.com. We would not push our member to buy from Cigar.com, but we would give them the choice purchase from the same source. The condition of the cigars we smoked would be the same condition our members would get without a doubt. Furthermore, we didn't need out of pocket money because Alex intends to ship the cigars to the expert panelist. Also, we would work together to build a solid rating system. To keep the panel unbiased, Russ Hilton, "Tekeeladude", would pick the cigars. A link to the cigar the expert panel rated would take readers to Cigar.com but for tracking purposes only and not part of the usual affiliates program some sites use to drive people to buy the cigar for a kick-back to the site in the form of money. The logistical nightmare was over&#8230;.at this point I was very excited because I knew the expert panel was possible.

Ok guys - so now this project is in the hands of the Expert Panel Leader - Russ Hilton "Tekeeladude". I wish him and the other three panelist well on this new endeavor!

Russ Hilton - Expert Panel
Bill Hood - Expert Panel
John Rider - Expert Panel
Chris Darling - Expert Panel

I wish everyone could be part of the expert panel, however, the expert panel members are individuals I feel will do the enormous amount of work to keep this going. I have talked to each expert panel member and they are all willing to do the work. Some may look at this as a great way for them to smoke whatever they want, but do not be mistaken, it's not only a lot of fun, but also a lot of work.


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## poriggity-cl (Feb 8, 2008)

That is AWESOME Stogie!!!! I dig it! I am really looking forward to this! Thank you for doing this, and keeping this site deep in the cigar community.
Scott


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## alanf (Jan 12, 2007)

Fantastic idea and one I totally support. You have a great panel there. I am looking forward to see how this works out in the weeks to come.


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## iloveclmore (Jan 23, 2008)

Wow, sounds awesome. I can't wait to see how this comes along!


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## jitzy (Jan 7, 2007)

Daniel I know I'm in the minority when I say this and am not looking to bash you or be bashed by anyone in return but there are only a few people this is good news for and thats the couple of guys on the pannel and cigar.com. Now where I do feel these guys are probably the best guys to do reviews but I feel that this sounds more like a marketing ploy by cigar.com to have our member by cigars from them, if theres a great review and a link right to the cigar there alot of people may just jump on it. Maybe I'm wrong and if I am I'm not afraid to admit it. However whatever you decide to do I will be there to support you and the rest of my cigerlive family but I do feel I needed to say what I did.


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## Stogie (Feb 13, 2007)

jitzy said:


> Daniel I know I'm in the minority when I say this and am not looking to bash you or be bashed by anyone in return but there are only a few people this is good news for and thats the couple of guys on the pannel and cigar.com. Now where I do feel these guys are probably the best guys to do reviews but I feel that this sounds more like a marketing ploy by cigar.com to have our member by cigars from them, if theres a great review and a link right to the cigar there alot of people may just jump on it. Maybe I'm wrong and if I am I'm not afraid to admit it. However whatever you decide to do I will be there to support you and the rest of my cigerlive family but I do feel I needed to say what I did.


I appreciate your honesty but I contacted them. I asked for the advice of Alex and the link is a justification so that they can pay for all the cigars and shipping. I want you to know that I thought long and hard about this before moving on it. Please trust that we will do this the right way, for the best for our community.


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## baboruger (Jun 18, 2007)

I sort of hate to say this as well, but I sort of agree with jitzy on this one. I'm not really sure how this will benefit the CigarLive community as a whole. I can see that it will be good for the 4 members (who just happen to do a bunch of reviews as it is and all happen to be mods) who are doing the reviews, and cigar.com, but I am not really sure what the rest of us will get other than the opinion of 4 members who are usually posting reviews on the site anyway.

Maybe if you could explain a little more how this will benefit the rest of us it might help make me understand why this is such Big News.

I'm not dissing the idea, or the people, but I just really don't know how this will help CigarLive. I'm not really sure I get this, we are going to use the ICRS for "normal" people reviews, but the "Experts" are going to be using a whole different system? Not really sure that is a good thing.

Oh well, I guess we just will see, this could turn out to be one of the best things to happen to cigarlive. I just hope that the little guy does not get left out of things in the future because of this move to the "Expert" panels and things.

Just my two cents.



jitzy said:


> Daniel I know I'm in the minority when I say this and am not looking to bash you or be bashed by anyone in return but there are only a few people this is good news for and thats the couple of guys on the pannel and cigar.com. Now where I do feel these guys are probably the best guys to do reviews but I feel that this sounds more like a marketing ploy by cigar.com to have our member by cigars from them, if theres a great review and a link right to the cigar there alot of people may just jump on it. Maybe I'm wrong and if I am I'm not afraid to admit it. However whatever you decide to do I will be there to support you and the rest of my cigerlive family but I do feel I needed to say what I did.


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## mitro-cl (Jul 5, 2007)

I guess I'm anti-establishment, or maybe just a trouble maker, but I don't care one bit about what the manufaturers want. I would prefer less input from manufacturers/retailers rather than more. CL is about cigar smokers, not cigar makers. Then again its not my board.


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## chinomalo (Feb 25, 2008)

I'm new, happy to be here, and like the diversity... Just like one of my teacher's teacher said, "Take what is useful and discard the rest."

Words to live by, IMHO..


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## jitzy (Jan 7, 2007)

Stogie said:


> I appreciate your honesty but I contacted them. I asked for the advice of Alex and the link is a justification so that they can pay for all the cigars and shipping. I want you to know that I thought long and hard about this before moving on it. Please trust that we will do this the right way, for the best for our community.


Daniel I do trust you and support you but I will still be very sceptical about this about a week or 2 ago I made a post in another section about the review system on here sadly I still feel that the one thing this site is missing is individual reviews where I could start a thread about a certain cigar give a review and have others post followup comments about it in regular thread format not the system we have in place now unfortunately the one thing I don't use cigarlive for is reviews. Look in no way am I bashing this site this is my home on the web and I spend an awful lot of time on here and have lots of friends but sometimes friends dissagre and this is going to be one of those times.


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## Stogie (Feb 13, 2007)

jitzy said:


> Daniel I do trust you and support you but I will still be very sceptical about this about a week or 2 ago I made a post in another section about the review system on here sadly I still feel that the one thing this site is missing is individual reviews where I could start a thread about a certain cigar give a review and have others post followup comments about it in regular thread format not the system we have in place now unfortunately the one thing I don't use cigarlive for is reviews. Look in no way am I bashing this site this is my home on the web and I spend an awful lot of time on here and have lots of friends but sometimes friends dissagre and this is going to be one of those times.


I have said many times before. We are all big boys and it will never hurt my feelings if you are honest with me. Jitzy you are a top notch member of this board. Everything I do and the decisions I make for the board are things I think are good. Believe me when I say that I have you guys post on my mind in everything I pursue.

Give this some time to develope, I had good intentions when I contacted Cigar.com and please remember that CigarLive.com has not always done things the way others have. I have no rules, our site was built on the ideas of each member. This idea is something I want to do. It gets us deeper involved so that we can get opportunities to get more info about the cigars we smoke. Up to this point the only cigars we could do Blind tasting panels are from manufacturers I directly contacted and had cigars shipped to me for tasting panels. This one thing opens us up to so many more choices of cigars to review.

I do want to say thank you for being honset, I posted the details because I want to be open about each and every aspect of this new expert panel.


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## mrgatorman (Mar 23, 2007)

Let me add this...

I am a board member before anything else. This is my home as well and I look at everything I do through those eyes. Hes my outcome or justifications if you will.

First I am a regular person. Im married with two kids smoke on occasion and my wife complains about every time I do. I enjoy the cigars I smoke for many reasons. I have no affiliation to any manufacturers or to any retailers. I have purchased literally thousands of cigars in my day. Heres the bottom line for me...I want Cigar Live to be an industry leader. Early on, I had many conversations with Daniel and his vision is then what it is today...to make this the best place for information and comaraderie anywhere. We strive for "gentlemanly" banter and lots of getting people together. Daniel has for th most part financed this baby on his own and only recently recieved advertising monies for his efforts and not near enough to recoup the thousands of dollars he invested in this place. 

Thats said only so you know his motivations. We want to be able to read reviews on cigars and really see what the meat is behind the review rating. Alot of reviewers are giving the rating and a line or so on the smoke. We want you to see the reason for the rating and who its comming from. You may allign yourself with me or another reviewer and I have to say that I know them very well and they are the best of the best. Im fortunate to have been asked to participate, but these are serious class acts that Im with here. 

The justification for this is to me is this. we want to be as an informative site as possible, we wanted to set this panel up to provide consistant and relatable information for you to take whatever info from. I dont want to commit to the expense of the cigars as well as any may understand. The best way for this to happen and to take the site to a new level is to be able to have a source of cigars and be able to provide you a retailer to buy them from. No one expects you to buy from any one company here. But how reasonable would it be to smoke a cigar that you couldnt get ahold of or didnt know how to. This provides a source and the information on the cigars. 

Maybe this helps you guys see my mindset in my participation on this. This does NOT effect the review panels that we all participate in. Those continue on as originated.


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## cjd-uk (Jan 7, 2008)

Whilst I share the sentiments of both Brent and Joe. I feel that this could be a big step forward. So many reviews that are published are skewed due to advertising revenues for the Reviewees, CA to name but one. At least this reviewing body is going to be entirely (apart from the suppliers) independant and hopefully consistent. Also the use of 4 reviewers can only be a good thing, as you mentioned not everyone likes the same strength or type of cigar, this should at least iron out some of the biases usually seen elsewhere.
Personally I wish the project well and look forward to the first review. I presume that all reviews will be posted in one section of the site allowing a one stop shop of cigar reviews, as I believe that will promote more interest from the cigar loving fraternity.

Good luck

Colin


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## Habana-cl (Nov 7, 2007)

Reserved and anxious both. I agree with both sides and will see how this develops. I will leave any other thoughts to myself for right now. Flint


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## elmomac (Jan 6, 2008)

I for one don't use the review section as much as I probably could. I don't know that having an expert panel is going to be a benefit for me personally. With that said, I'm not against it but I don't know that I would use it. I guess it is kindda like the mirror on the visor on the passenger side of my car. I know its there if I needed it but I rarely use it.

One thought I did have after reading the other posts in the thread was "what are some ways to become more involved in the review process?" I don't know how many members here are part of the cigar of the month club at Cigar.com or at CI but those who are, depending on which club they are in, are receiving the same cigars in the same condition each month and perhaps some groups could be formed that would review that month's club offering. One group for each club. Like I said this was just a thought - in rough draft form - perhaps its something some folks here would be interested in.

Stogie, thanks for all your work on this board, it’s a great place and I have felt at home here since day 1. I think this is a good discussion whether for or against.


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## baboruger (Jun 18, 2007)

Just to clarify, I think that the thing that strikes me as wrong about this is the name. I think calling these 4 and ONLY these 4 as the "Experts" demeans the rest of the reviews on here. I think that we are all in the same boat and put our pants on one leg at a time, and light our cigars with a flame. Why are these reviews going to be labeled as experts and the rest of our reviews going to be done with a different basis and format. 

Why not change the review format for everyone? By calling it Expert reviews it seems that we at cigarlive are saying that everyone other than these 4 are not capable of doing reviews in this format. I just think this is the wrong thing to portray and I know that this is NOT what the intention was, but it might be the PERCEPTION. And as we all know PERCEPTION is reality for most people.

I really think this is a good idea, but I think that maybe they should just be called "cigar.com reviews" or something like that. I think that's what really bothers me about this is the term EXPERT. 

I enjoy doing the blind reviews, and hope that I can continue, but are they really a good thing that we are doing, if there is a special group called "Experts" and the rest of us are not?

While I will wait and see, I just think that the terminology and what not smacks of elitism. Again, that's my two cents.


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## stlcards (Sep 14, 2007)

I also think it will be good. Cigar.com gets the advertizing plug, they are providing the cigars to review. That's a win for both I think. I also think, and hope, that this step will give CL more credibility with manufacturers. If they guys making the cigars are looking to us for suggestions and feedback then I can only think we will get cigars that are more to our liking. 

At the least a few of our guys are getting to review free smokes and it will open up more discussion on the forum. Maybe this would lead to more user reviews, maybe not. As far as the 10 point vs. the 100 point system goes, as long as the users and the experts have pretty similar judging categories it's just a matter of where you put the decimal point. I think manufacturers want a 100 point scale because that's what the most people are used to.

These statements are my personal beliefs only, I have no inside info on any of the topics. That is all...


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## Doogie (Oct 15, 2007)

This must have been a tuff decision for you Daniel. I have to agree with Joe, Mike and Brent. This is dangerous waters we are entering. I do not question the panel’s integrity, you could not have chosen better people for the tasting panel. As long as the integrity of this board remains intact, I will support whatever you and the mods decide. I hope Cigar.com does not have alternative motives.


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## LkyLindy (Feb 1, 2008)

This rating and review system is long overdo--CA has right now the "lock' ON CIGAR REVIEWS-Some I agree with and some not0Here we have a way of starting from the ground up to develop maybe a more scientific and unbiased paradigm based on 100 points--As far a cigar.com funding the smokes in exchange for ad time -no problemo--I will always search for the best deals no matter what links are up--As far as the "expert" panel--I SAY AMEN to that also--I expect Daniel to "know" his people and their qualifications--And these panelist look like stand up guys with many years of experience--i.e. we all know at least John and his reviews-top notch stuff---I say great idea who's time has finally come---Hopefully the ratings and reviews will be organized in a user friendly format (alphabetical by brands??) that will benefit us all and the Botl/Sotl universally--BTW- i found this very CL site while I was looking for reviews myself---This idea is a good one and I feel proud that we all have a chance to watch it be born and hopefully develop into the BEST in the industry

Just my .02


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## mhlatke (Oct 13, 2007)

Personally, I don't read many cigar reviews (here or elsewhere) because I like to experience that first cigar without any bias or expectations. Everyone's taste preference is different and we can't all experience that 'hint of leather' or 'essence of cedar' (not things that I eat on a regular basis for comparison-lol).

CigarLive's charm is that it is warm, inviting and everyone is welcome. The idea of elevating select members to be exclusive reviewers seems to go a bit against that grain. I know change is inevitable, and Daniel has done a wonderful job with the many improvements in the 6 months that I've been on board, but I don't think we need to make this site the same as many of the other forums out there.

Just my 2 cents. This is a great community and I'm happy to be a member. Most other forums don't even give you the opportunity to voice your concerns with how they operate or what changes they make - but that again, is the essence of CL.

And, no matter what, we still have the option to not read the reviews - this is a democracy.


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## GreySmoke (Jan 11, 2008)

One of the things that has been missed in this thread is the amount or industry recognition this brings to the board. We could develop this into the next rating system for the industry. People would come to this board for the information that once came from CA - who knows - lets see how this develops. IMHO


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## mhlatke (Oct 13, 2007)

GreySmoke said:


> One of the things that has been missed in this thread is the amount or industry recognition this brings to the board. We could develop this into the next rating system for the industry. People would come to this board for the information that once came from CA - who knows - lets see how this develops. IMHO


Careful what you wish for - Do you really want this to become the next CA?
I'm sure they started out with noble intentions as well.


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## baboruger (Jun 18, 2007)

GreySmoke said:


> One of the things that has been missed in this thread is the amount or industry recognition this brings to the board. We could develop this into the next rating system for the industry. People would come to this board for the information that once came from CA - who knows - lets see how this develops. IMHO


I agree, but then it is not a board thing, rather an exclusive club of 4 moderators who are doing this. That's my point. It is a slippery slope as someone said, and I hope this does not led to more exclusions in things.


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## Rah55 (Feb 13, 2008)

I think this is a great idea. Just a suggestion to follow up on the already noted fact that some people like mild cigars and some like those that rip the hairs out of your nose as you exhale (My humble self sometimes included). Wouldn't it be a helpful idea for the 4 expert tasters to post a bit of a "smoker's profile" so we all know where they stand on this and what types of cigars they tend to prefer? They could include some of their favorites to give us a better idea of their tastes?

What say you all, worthy idea or waste of time??

For what it's worth, I like the idea of forming tasting comittees based on cigar club's offerings and I don't see where one set of reviewers should exclude the other.


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## Stogie (Feb 13, 2007)

baboruger said:


> I agree, but then it is not a board thing, rather an exclusive club of 4 moderators who are doing this. That's my point. It is a slippery slope as someone said, and I hope this does not led to more exclusions in things.


I picked 4 because I can not have 2300 people on the panel. It was a hard decision that I did not take lightly. I try to make things on the board so everyone can participate but I am limited on this one thing. A big limiting factor is money.

*Blind Panels*
The blind panels are out there and as time goes on and we build more credibility I am sure manufacturers will want thier cigars in the blind panels. We are working on breaking the blind panels up into categories such as strength and ring gauge maybe.


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## Stogie (Feb 13, 2007)

Rah55 said:


> I think this is a great idea. Just a suggestion to follow up on the already noted fact that some people like mild cigars and some like those that rip the hairs out of your nose as you exhale (My humble self sometimes included). Wouldn't it be a helpful idea for the 4 expert tasters to post a bit of a "smoker's profile" so we all know where they stand on this and what types of cigars they tend to prefer? They could include some of their favorites to give us a better idea of their tastes?
> 
> What say you all, worthy idea or waste of time??
> 
> For what it's worth, I like the idea of forming tasting comittees based on cigar club's offerings and I don't see where one set of reviewers should exclude the other.


The profiles are in the works. Each panelist has been writting a bio for themselves.


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## ArrowJ (Mar 19, 2008)

I'm not sure if I have enough tenure to speak to this subject or not, but here are _some _of my thoughts on the topic.


I like the idea of "Rated 93 by Cigar Live"
"Rated 93 by Cigar Live" has minimal value when it represents only four members of the community
Any number of "experts" (12, 16, 20, ?) could be used on a rotational basis to add validity to the "Rated 93 by Cigar Live"
Using a lottery system to choose which four experts from the pool are used in each rotation would add even more validity to the "Rated 93 by Cigar Live"
If the pool of experts were assigned "term limits" it would add even more validity to the "Rated 93 by Cigar Live"
I love Cigar Live
My favorite food is Lasagna


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## Rah55 (Feb 13, 2008)

Excellent Smithers....


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## baboruger (Jun 18, 2007)

No, I completely understand, and maybe I should take this offline with you, but i would think that this is a better idea for an offshoot of cigarlive, like ************ is. I understand that this is a good thing for you and cigar.com, but I just don't really see how this can do anything but make the rest of us feel like our reviews are not as important because they are not EXPERT reviews.

That's all I'm saying...don't take this the wrong way, it is more that this should be not considered a CigarLive thing as it really is only 4 people.

As many people say "It is what it is." I just think you are going to set a bad perception of the "Non-Expert" reviews.

Now I know some people are thinking that I don't like the idea because I and others are not included. Nope, in fact, I would not want to be on this panel that would have to sort of report back to cigar.com, I like expressing myself freely, and say I really hated a cigar, would I have to shade my opinion because the sales link? Who knows. All I am worried about is that there is beginning to be clicks, and elite groups here, and I hope that this won't fundamentally change the board. I've been there and done that, and to be honest, I would rather say a cigar stinks if it does, and not have to worry about the sales.

Just saw this..


ArrowJ said:


> I'm not sure if I have enough tenure to speak to this subject or not, but here are _some _of my thoughts on the topic.
> 
> 
> I like the idea of "Rated 93 by Cigar Live"
> ...


I think I agree with everything...but my favorite food is Chicken Kiev.....

If there is anything more to say I will take this offline to PM's.

P.S. -- I am really having a good day today! I like debates like this!



Stogie said:


> I picked 4 because I can not have 2300 people on the panel. It was a hard decision that I did not take lightly. I try to make things on the board so everyone can participate but I am limited on this one thing. A big limiting factor is money.
> 
> *Blind Panels*
> The blind panels are out there and as time goes on and we build more credibility I am sure manufacturers will want thier cigars in the blind panels. We are working on breaking the blind panels up into categories such as strength and ring gauge maybe.


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## boxer757 (Apr 18, 2007)

I definitely see both sides of the argument here. Just a few thoughts for what they are worth&#8230;

As far as the cigar.com link is concerned I agree with Harvey in that any educated and wary consumer is not going to jump right over to cigar.com to grab the smokes without first doing a little research.

As far as the semantics of "expert"&#8230; there has never been and still are not any real cliques here. I understand there is a fear one could develop when the "experts" get together. I understand there are some basic human emotions such as envy and fear that rise up in the back of your mind when you see 4 normal guys that you post on the board with getting deemed the "experts." But I think we all need to be big boys and get past that. Chris, John, Bill, and Russ are great members of this board, no they are not _better_ than the rest of us, I am sure that a number of other CL members would be excellent reviewers but we cannot have a 1,000 member review panel and be respected for it. Surely there are a bunch of other B/SOTL on CL that could do just as excellent of a job, BUT I can think of no reason why these 4 men should _not_ be on the panel and I think they deserve a shot. We should be happy for them that they get to delve deeper into the cigar industry. Yeah I'm a bit jealous, but in a good way, I wish I could do it, but I am extremely happy for them.

I think Daniel will stay open to suggestions and we can continue to tweak this as it gets rolling to try and make it fit in with the ideals we have here at CigarLive. If it turns into a disaster then #1 I think Daniel will recognize it and #2 even if for some reason he does not I am sure with how opinionated we all are we will be up in arms about it to exact a change! So I think it best to let your suggestions and opinions be known but respect Daniels decision to do with his board as he pleases (because he has always taken our interests into consideration) and just sit back and wait. It is good to be skeptical, I know I am but let's give it a shot and see where it goes.

But yes I do have some fear that this could be a slippery slope as they say. I just don't want it to become a place where there is suddenly a class system and where us normal guys who don't have the same kind of history on the board or don't have as much time to devote to it as some members or whatever get excluded or ignored.

My final thought&#8230; 
I think we need to give Daniel and the guys on the panel the benefit of the doubt as he has been pretty selfless in trying to make CL a better place for all of us. He is ambitious and wants to take CigarLive to the next level and I say more power to him. I am sure that he understands how sticky of a situation this could turn in to but from all I have seen I have faith that he will do what is right by us, the members, all of us.


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## boxer757 (Apr 18, 2007)

baboruger said:


> No, I completely understand, and maybe I should take this offline with you, but i would think that this is a better idea for an offshoot of cigarlive, like ************ is. I understand that this is a good thing for you and cigar.com, but I just don't really see how this can do anything but make the rest of us feel like our reviews are not as important because they are not EXPERT reviews.
> 
> That's all I'm saying...don't take this the wrong way, it is more that this should be not conidered a CigarLive thing as it really is only 4 people.
> 
> ...


Definitely understand what you are saying, I have to say of all the things that "scare" me the most on CL it is that cliques will form and I know I will not be in one because I am just not cool enough :lol:


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## boxer757 (Apr 18, 2007)

Stogie said:


> The profiles are in the works. Each panelist has been writting a bio for themselves.


I had one thought Daniel, just to kind of play devil's advocate. Is there perhaps a SOTL that would be willing and able to be on the review panel? I know there are some great ones here and I think with CL wishing to be a leader and revolutionary in the industry that having a female represented would be a good move.

Just my $.02


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## mitro-cl (Jul 5, 2007)

Stogie said:


> The blind panels are out there and as time goes on and we build more credibility I am sure manufacturers will want thier cigars in the blind panels. We are working on breaking the blind panels up into categories such as strength and ring gauge maybe.


The blind panels are a tool for the manufacturer to gauge what they want to sell. So this increased "credibility" means they'll get to use the CL members even more to get there market research done?

In my eyes, the credibility of the opinions on CL goes down as its tailored to be a more useful tool for those who sell to the participants in this community.


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## ArrowJ (Mar 19, 2008)

boxer757 said:


> I had one thought Daniel, just to kind of play devil's advocate. Is there perhaps a SOTL that would be willing and able to be on the review panel? I know there are some great ones here and I think with CL wishing to be a leader and revolutionary in the industry that having a female represented would be a good move.
> 
> Just my $.02


Yeah, we want to be sure and keep everything PC. Equal opportunity reviewer! 

Sorry, I couldn't resist.


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## GreySmoke (Jan 11, 2008)

boxer757 said:


> I definitely see both sides of the argument here. Just a few thoughts for what they are worth&#8230;
> 
> As far as the cigar.com link is concerned I agree with Harvey in that any educated and wary consumer is not going to jump right over to cigar.com to grab the smokes without first doing a little research.
> 
> ...


Here here !!!


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## AbeScromsbie-cl (Jul 17, 2007)

I, too, am a little leery of this panel. In my opinion, it moves Cigar Live a step closer to the CA model. Part of the initial attraction to CL for me was that it was the antithesis of CA. There wasn’t any of the elitist vibe that sometimes flows in this industry, rather a place to enjoy good craic with other botl/sotl.

It may make it more palatable to the common folk if it’s reclassified as the moderator cigar review panel. Otherwise, you may want to add a novitiate cigar review panel? A place where the regular moe’s can gather to review sticks.


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## Dogwatch Dale-cl (Sep 7, 2005)

baboruger said:


> Just to clarify, I think that the thing that strikes me as wrong about this is the name. I think calling these 4 and ONLY these 4 as the "Experts" demeans the rest of the reviews on here. I think that we are all in the same boat and put our pants on one leg at a time, and light our cigars with a flame. Why are these reviews going to be labeled as experts and the rest of our reviews going to be done with a different basis and format.
> 
> Why not change the review format for everyone? By calling it Expert reviews it seems that we at cigarlive are saying that everyone other than these 4 are not capable of doing reviews in this format. I just think this is the wrong thing to portray and I know that this is NOT what the intention was, but it might be the PERCEPTION. And as we all know PERCEPTION is reality for most people.
> 
> ...


I think the concept, logistics and potential gain to the board is fantastic and I think we're seeing again the amazing out of the box thinking Daniel has! And it is his board. However, I think Brent has a good point here and I will offer a suggestion that may be worth kicking around.

If we can find another name other than Expert that still carries some weight yet is not so exclusive I think many folks would like that better. Also, once this gets rolling, perhaps another 4 different members could be added, rotating every month, cigar or whatever. Kind of like Smoke mag does with its reviewers. They have their staff reviewers and then guest reviewers every month. Not every one of our 2300 member may get a shot, but at least more folks could participate. The integrity and consistancy from the 4 "Cigar Live Staff Reviewers" (good choices by the way!) would be there, plus input using the same system from 4 "Cigar Live Featured Member Reviewers" every time.

Just a thought. As I said, this is Daniel's board and so far he hasn't lead anyone wrong with all the new innovations he's brought to the table. He also has carried a heavy finacial burden, and this is a great solution to that problem. It seems though that there is just enough emotion behind some of the concerns that it may need adjusting as it goes, and I'm sure Daniel will do just that as needed.


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## tekhnu (Jun 10, 2007)

This may be Monday morning quarterbacking here but here is my $0.02. I think 4 is way too few raters on the CigarLive.com panel. In my opinion, the more the better. Cigar.com should be able to provide hundreds of cigars month after month. These ratings are no more than opinion studies if you ask me. Research institutions conduct studies every day on one topic or another. If you ask me cigar rating should be no different. The more subjects that participate in the study the better the information that comes out of the study. 

I've participated in the blind ratings for Smoke Magazine. They cast a wide net in terms of the number of people doing the reviews. After the hundreds of reviews from regular everyday cigar smokers like you and I are collected, they base the results on the majority of the responces all following the same guidelines. Because of that I feel they get a better result than CA. If Smoke Magazine can provide hundreds of cigars per calendar quarter then so can Cigar.com. Money should not be an issue.


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## boxer757 (Apr 18, 2007)

ArrowJ said:


> Yeah, we want to be sure and keep everything PC. Equal opportunity reviewer!
> 
> Sorry, I couldn't resist.


lol no biggie

If I did not think there were women here he were able to do this I would not have suggested it. But i think there are some, such as Rhonda for one.

It isn't about being PC it is just that there are women cigar smokers out there who have palates and opinions every bit as great as the guys but I personally have never seen them represented on a legitimate and respected panel. It was just my .02 take it as you will.


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## ArrowJ (Mar 19, 2008)

tekhnu said:


> If Smoke Magazine can provide hundreds of cigars per calendar quarter then so can Cigar.com. Money should not be an issue.


:leph: Is that an offer for financial support? :leph:​


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## ArrowJ (Mar 19, 2008)

boxer757 said:


> If I did not think there were women here he were able to do this I would not have suggested it. But i think there are some, such as Rhonda for one.


Sure, I don't care who does the reviews, it just seem like, well I think ArrowJ said it best when he said:


I like the idea of "Rated 93 by Cigar Live"
"Rated 93 by Cigar Live" has minimal value when it represents only four members of the community
Any number of "experts" (12, 16, 20, ?) could be used on a rotational basis to add validity to the "Rated 93 by Cigar Live"
Using a lottery system to choose which four experts from the pool are used in each rotation would add even more validity to the "Rated 93 by Cigar Live"
If the pool of experts were assigned "term limits" it would add even more validity to the "Rated 93 by Cigar Live"
I love Cigar Live
My favorite food is Lasagna


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## Stogie (Feb 13, 2007)

boxer757 said:


> Definitely understand what you are saying, I have to say of all the things that "scare" me the most on CL it is that cliques will form and I know I will not be in one because I am just not cool enough :lol:


Funny you say that Boxer757....I used a quote you made on the new LiveCigar.com website. It was the one about how you suggested three blends and George listened.


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## mrgatorman (Mar 23, 2007)

As I read all your opinions, I have to say a few things to make sure you guys understand our or at least my mindset. I am not nor have I ever been an expert and just about anything except being normal (And thats even negotiable). I just a regular guy. We felt that this is a great thing for CL in order to get it rolling, it needed a few people that will commit and work with CL. Not to say that anyone wouldnt, but the moderators have been entrusted with alot of "behind the scenes" stuff and quite possible, it would be an EASIER thing to get mods to start this off. By no means do we consider ourselves EXPERTS or better than anyone else, I think 5 minutes with me would proove that correct. Expert panel is just a designation, a name, callit the 4 loosers if you want to, it means the same to me. But when the eyes of the Cigar industry look to see the rating of the Expert panel, no matter how may people are on it, they'll see a collective and consistant group of people giving their opinions, and isnt this what were talking about anyway. Were not holding to 4 panel members anyhow. We plan on using a number of tools to invite people onto the panel system. The blind review panel is one of them. And I think it would be the best thing in the world to have a Sister on the panel. What a great thing to set us apart from the mondane everyday review group.

Everything we have and continue to do keeps one thing and one thing only in focus...whats best for the community. All the reading into motivations and paiple thinking they are better than others, is just flat out wrong. I fart, burp, weigh too much, hate my job, love to spend money on needless things like my new 2008 Jeep Wrangler, and watch sports. Im 90% of you guys. An thats why this place is so special to me.


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## Stogie (Feb 13, 2007)

boxer757 said:


> I had one thought Daniel, just to kind of play devil's advocate. Is there perhaps a SOTL that would be willing and able to be on the review panel? I know there are some great ones here and I think with CL wishing to be a leader and revolutionary in the industry that having a female represented would be a good move.
> 
> Just my $.02


The one that would come to mind would be Patefengreen. No plans for a 5th person but great suggestion.


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## boxer757 (Apr 18, 2007)

Stogie said:


> Funny you say that Boxer757....I used a quote you made on the new LiveCigar.com website. It was the one about how you suggested three blends and George listened.


Oh wow, I had no idea... I will shut up with the self-deprecating humor now :brick:


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## ArrowJ (Mar 19, 2008)

mrgatorman said:


> And I think it would be the best thing in the world to have a Sister on the panel.


Come on guys, lets not go down this road. A person is a person, is a person, is a person. If a female ends up on the panel...great, but we aren't trying to make sure we get a man 50 or older, and a black man, and a man who makes lots of money, and a poor man etc. Whoever reviews the sticks, reviews the sticks.


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## stlcards (Sep 14, 2007)

I really don't think the 4 panelists will think of themselves as "elitists". They are normal, down to earth dudes like the rest of us and they know it.

The expert moniker comes across to me as just a high class name. If i were looking at a review by the "CL Expert Panel" or the "CL Average Joe Panel" I might inadvertently (sp?) let the expert review carry more weight in my mind. Changing it to something like the CL Moderator's Review Panel might takes some of the elitist thoughts away if someone has them. Then it becomes a factual statement and not just a supposed sub-group of the CL community.

I really don't think Daniel will move in the direction of CA. He has worked too hard on this forum to even take that chance. If things start to go south people will stop posting, stop herfing, stop bombing, then it will eventually be a ghost town except for a few old guys and tons of noobs. Then he's left with nothing. I just don't see it happening.

Let's give this the benefit of the doubt and support it. If it goes bad then we just voice our concern, influence a little change and get back on the right path. Daniel is smart enough to listen to us when we tell him things, without us there's no CL. But until things get bad let's fire up a smoke, sit back, and take a few chances.


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## Matt257 (Jan 3, 2008)

stlcards said:


> I really don't think the 4 panelists will think of themselves as "elitists". They are normal, down to earth dudes like the rest of us and they know it.
> 
> The expert moniker comes across to me as just a high class name. If i were looking at a review by the "CL Expert Panel" or the "CL Average Joe Panel" I might inadvertently (sp?) let the expert review carry more weight in my mind. Changing it to something like the CL Moderator's Review Panel might takes some of the elitist thoughts away if someone has them. Then it becomes a factual statement and not just a supposed sub-group of the CL community.
> 
> ...


well said. I agree. Daniel has done right by the site for this long. So I say we trust him and see where it takes us


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## FrankPerson (Jan 10, 2008)

Well, betwen Rafael Gonzales and me, I couldn't disagree more, I sure hope you guys get it STRAIGHT!


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## Cypress (Jun 27, 2007)

I see the pros and cons of the expert review panel. I have to agree that only 4 or 5 that are only review mean nothing to me. Honestly I take more credibility of reviews from www.top25cigar.com because the review are unbiased and you get people to review who are the consumer rather than the expert reviewers. Experts have more a refined tasting palate and can taste characteristics in a cigar that the normal tasters may not even taste. And even then it is ones imagination that thinks they taste a certain taste in a cigar. No two people have the same taste buds and even two people who smoke the same cigar may not taste the same characteristics. I know it is not feasible to have a huge panel but I think the credibility would lie when there are reviews from expert smokers to the noobies. Credibility is earned through numbers though. Its like taking a poll here who will win for president with only 5 members rather than 2000+ members. I have taken this quote from wine tasting. "The best cigar in the world is the one you enjoy" This goes from the buck a stick dog rocket to the super premium 30-40 buck stick. Good luck and I hope everything works out as planned.


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## Habana-cl (Nov 7, 2007)

As I stated in the beginning I see both sides and will hold my remarks for now. Let's see what happens and goes from there.:biggrin: Let's all have a nice stick and enjoy that it is FRIDAY. HA HA Flint


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## stlcards (Sep 14, 2007)

Also, I think Dale nailed it with both the name change and the guest reviewers each month. I saw the post about switching reviewers, but if you do that you lose all continuity and it throws an unneeded variable in the already difficult mix. By adding guest reviewers you get the unchanging reviews by the panel and a mix of different people that can give different viewpoints each time. I think it could be worked by Cigar.com to throw in enough sticks for a couple of extra people (2-4) each month. I REALLY doubt they will give out enough for 100 people or whatever Smoke Magazine does, and I honestly wouldn't expect them to do that.


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## tobacmon (May 17, 2007)

Cypress said:


> I see the pros and cons of the expert review panel. I have to agree that only 4 or 5 that are only review mean nothing to me. Honestly I take more credibility of reviews from www.top25cigar.com because the review are unbiased and you get people to review who are the consumer rather than the expert reviewers. Experts have more a refined tasting palate and can taste characteristics in a cigar that the normal tasters may not even taste. And even then it is ones imagination that thinks they taste a certain taste in a cigar. No two people have the same taste buds and even two people who smoke the same cigar may not taste the same characteristics. I know it is not feasible to have a huge panel but I think the credibility would lie when there are reviews from expert smokers to the noobies. Credibility is earned through numbers though. Its like taking a poll here who will win for president with only 5 members rather than 2000+ members. I have taken this quote from wine tasting. "The best cigar in the world is the one you enjoy" This goes from the buck a stick dog rocket to the super premium 30-40 buck stick. Good luck and I hope everything works out as planned.


Now this I like---Well put---


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## tekhnu (Jun 10, 2007)

stlcards said:


> ...I think it could be worked by Cigar.com to throw in enough sticks for a couple of extra people (2-4) each month. I REALLY doubt they will give out enough for 100 people or whatever Smoke Magazine does, and I honestly wouldn't expect them to do that.


stlcards, I see your point and I want to disagree somewhat. This is in no way a debate so everyones opinion is valid. However if it were a hundred sticks that's only 5 boxes. Hell, I just gave away 3 boxes and I don't own cigar.com or any other business. Why not 5 boxes comprised of various cigars? That may workout to be a box per brand per review. Cigar.com will get way more value than the cost of 100 cigars in the resulting increased exposure from CigarLive.


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## GreySmoke (Jan 11, 2008)

:arghhhh:

OK enough - Lets talk about somthing real important. I say we shut this place down unless some LIVE CIGARS START SHIPPING!!!


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## boxer757 (Apr 18, 2007)

GreySmoke said:


> :arghhhh:
> 
> OK enough - Lets talk about somthing real important. I say we shut this place down unless some LIVE CIGARS START SHIPPING!!!


Here here! haha


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## hayward_tenney (Mar 18, 2008)

boxer757 said:


> I had one thought Daniel, just to kind of play devil's advocate. Is there perhaps a SOTL that would be willing and able to be on the review panel? I know there are some great ones here and I think with CL wishing to be a leader and revolutionary in the industry that having a female represented would be a good move.
> 
> Just my $.02


A capital idea, I couldn't agree more. 
Also agree w/ the various sentiments surrounding the use of "expert," for what it's worth. Finally, a larger sample pool could only serve to reinforce the legitimacy of the panel's opinions, IMO. That is a raw, inarguable, statistical fact.


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## stlcards (Sep 14, 2007)

tekhnu said:


> stlcards, I see your point and I want to disagree somewhat. This is in no way a debate so everyones opinion is valid. However if it were a hundred sticks that's only 5 boxes. Hell, I just gave away 3 boxes and I don't own cigar.com or any other business. Why not 5 boxes comprised of various cigars? That may workout to be a box per brand per review. Cigar.com will get way more value than the cost of 100 cigars in the resulting increased exposure from CigarLive.


Could they do it, sure. Would they want to, I have no idea. 5 boxes of 20 would cover 10 people if each box was different (2 of the same smokes per person of each kind). Now maybe it could work if all 5 boxes were the same, now you're talking 50 people (still at 2 per person). What I wonder about is if you get into a panel of 50 people will they all do the reviews and give feedback in a timely manner? I don't know, but I doubt it. Also, how would you choose the 50 people? Would it be tenure on the forum, post count, a combination? I know that I wouldn't want to deal with managing that many people doing reviews. I think either way people will get alienated by not being on the review panel.

Just my thoughts.


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## Rah55 (Feb 13, 2008)

WOW what a firestorm. Honestly I do understand the concerns about the loss of a sort of "Jeffersonian democracy" but frankly, I never felt threatened by the opinion of anybody who was a so called expert and these are people from this site. If you can't trust one of your own who can you trust??? Besides, I love coming across an "expert" who's opinions I agree with. Then you can let them do all the work and reap all the benfits. I once refused to read any movie reviews except for those by a certain reviewer. I agreed all the time and it made my life better for reading him.

I think it would be great to do the CA thing better than CA. Just considering biases for mild and strong cigar smokers is an improvement. Why don't we concentrate on coming up with other improvements over the conventional wisdom and really make this thing the best? Wouldn't that show the "experts"?

Power to the BOTLs


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## Itsme-Speedy-G (Aug 20, 2007)

Stogie said:


> I picked 4 because I can not have 2300 people on the panel. It was a hard decision that I did not take lightly. I try to make things on the board so everyone can participate but I am limited on this one thing. A big limiting factor is money.
> 
> *Blind Panels*
> The blind panels are out there and as time goes on and we build more credibility I am sure manufacturers will want thier cigars in the blind panels. We are working on breaking the blind panels up into categories such as strength and ring gauge maybe.


Have you considered having a guest reviewer or two from the masses???

If you do the math at a box of premium cigars $200.00-$300.00 (retail)
shipping for 4 revewers $20.00 (usps priority)
How many boxes would Cigars.com have to sell to break even????

The review panel could be called CL's Rating......


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## LkyLindy (Feb 1, 2008)

boxer757 said:


> I definitely see both sides of the argument here. Just a few thoughts for what they are worth&#8230;
> 
> As far as the cigar.com link is concerned I agree with Harvey in that any educated and wary consumer is not going to jump right over to cigar.com to grab the smokes without first doing a little research.
> 
> ...


Well said!!!!!


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## Jughead (Apr 22, 2007)

I think there's a fox in the hen house.


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## Stogie (Feb 13, 2007)

Itsme-Speedy-G said:


> Have you considered having a guest reviewer or two from the masses???
> 
> If you do the math at a box of premium cigars $200.00-$300.00 (retail)
> shipping for 4 revewers $20.00 (usps priority)
> ...


We have blind tasting panels available that are open to all that meet the requirements. It is really hard to even keep track of 10 people doing reviews. We currently have two panels #200 and #201. I want to do other things with the site for the members but when we have a hard time getting reviews back from members it makes it difficult. I have yet to see an open blind tasting panel come back on time from every participating member. Maybe some day we will get there but not yet as of today. For this reason I never get to reveal the cigars in a timely manner and people loose interest.

At least with this new panel it will be not be a blind panel and getting the 4 members reviews back quickly will give us insight on the cigar quickly without having to wait. I think some might be missing the fact that this is a panel in addition to our Blind Tasting Panel. All these guys agreed to do the reviews in a timely manner.


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## stlcards (Sep 14, 2007)

Stogie said:


> We have blind tasting panels available that are open to all that meet the requirements. It is really hard to even keep track of 10 people doing reviews. We currently have two panels #200 and #201. I want to do other things with the site for the members but when we have a hard time getting reviews back from members it makes it difficult. I have yet to see an open blind tasting panel come back on time from every participating member. Maybe some day we will get there but not yet as of today. For this reason I never get to reveal the cigars in a timely manner and people loose interest.
> 
> At least with this new panel it will be not be a blind panel and getting the 4 members reviews back quickly will give us insight on the cigar quickly without having to wait. I think some might be missing the fact that this is a panel in addition to our Blind Tasting Panel. All these guys agreed to do the reviews in a timely manner.


This was my biggest issue with having a large panel. Yes, statistically, a larger sample will yield more accurate results, but in this case we are dealing with people that are not directly controlled for the duration of the study. This puts too many variables into it. The larger the sample size the more you will run into people not holding up on their end for one reason or another. You could you add a guest or two each month without a problem, but they would have to be screened just like the original panel members to make sure they could review in a timely manner.

As always, just my thoughts.:nerd:


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## jitzy (Jan 7, 2007)

after having spoke to Daniel the one main point in all this is getting our name out there in the industry and for that I'm very excited. The other thing is there are no contracts being signed in this so if after a little while we all see as a group that its not working than speak up, this forum is only as strong as its members and its up to us to protect it. So for now daniel and the other guys have my support and I will continue to support it even in times I may not agree with it.


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## JoeyBear (Jul 31, 2007)

I've read all this and my head hurts. Daniel, it's your board and your call. I do think having "experts" at all, and limited to 4 is way too small of a sample group to lend any credibility to the reviews of a cigar. Nothing at all against the people chosen, but doing a sample of 4 people means little to nothing as far as credibility or viability to a cigars attributes. I would also be somewhat pissed if I followed the recommendation of "experts" and the cigar turned out to be less than expected. If it was known that one person smoked an Oliva V and rated it a 94, or whatever it is, then that would diminish the viability of that review. 

I've been here for a while and I'm not going anywhere and will continue to support CL. The people on here and friendships made and connections are more important than any rating/review system. There are plenty of cigars people rave about that I think are rockets, and many I think are great that others hate. Using the term "experts", without giving some type of credentials as to how they gained their experience might be a problem. When I reviewed for beer.com, I had done over 200 independent reviews, had worked in a brewery, and had some real experience with the entire process and was not just a beer drinker, as an example.

I do think non-experts should be able to chime in on their opinions of cigars, after the experts have rated them. 

My favorite food is hamburgers cooked over charcoal :biggrin:


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## Stogie (Feb 13, 2007)

jitzy said:


> after having spoke to Daniel the one main point in all this is getting our name out there in the industry and for that I'm very excited. The other thing is there are no contracts being signed in this so if after a little while we all see as a group that its not working than speak up, this forum is only as strong as its members and its up to us to protect it. So for now daniel and the other guys have my support and I will continue to support it even in times I may not agree with it.


You guys got to remember that I asked Alex to do this for us and he agreed. When you guys see the ratings full of descriptions and not just a few lines with a number on a 100 point system you will like it.

All in all you will see that this will be a good thing for CigarLive.com

I wish some could be there when I was calling manufacturers and asking them to donate cigars for the blind panel. Sometimes I could not even get past the secretary. Alot of times they finally sent cigars after I blew up there phones. Things have changed over the last year and I do not feel ashamed for asking for those cigars back then. All in all it is a hobby for me and I am passionate about it and that is why I am not afraid to do different things.

I like the response because a year from now we will look back on this. I got more plans for this site and just know that I have no one to answer to but the members.


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## Brazilla-cl (Feb 20, 2008)

mrgatorman said:


> As I read all your opinions, I have to say a few things to make sure you guys understand our or at least my mindset. I am not nor have I ever been an expert and just about anything except being normal (And thats even negotiable). I just a regular guy. We felt that this is a great thing for CL in order to get it rolling, it needed a few people that will commit and work with CL. Not to say that anyone wouldnt, but the moderators have been entrusted with alot of "behind the scenes" stuff and quite possible, it would be an EASIER thing to get mods to start this off. By no means do we consider ourselves EXPERTS or better than anyone else, I think 5 minutes with me would proove that correct. Expert panel is just a designation, a name, callit the 4 loosers if you want to, it means the same to me. But when the eyes of the Cigar industry look to see the rating of the Expert panel, no matter how may people are on it, they'll see a collective and consistant group of people giving their opinions, and isnt this what were talking about anyway. Were not holding to 4 panel members anyhow. We plan on using a number of tools to invite people onto the panel system. The blind review panel is one of them. And I think it would be the best thing in the world to have a Sister on the panel. What a great thing to set us apart from the mondane everyday review group.
> 
> Everything we have and continue to do keeps one thing and one thing only in focus...whats best for the community. All the reading into motivations and paiple thinking they are better than others, is just flat out wrong. I fart, burp, weigh too much, hate my job, love to spend money on needless things like my new 2008 Jeep Wrangler, and watch sports. Im 90% of you guys. An thats why this place is so special to me.


I will also start by saying I'm not sure my tenure affords me much of an opinion either but it never stopped me before I came here and I'm sure it won't now....

OK, I can taste leather, I can taste earth, I can taste cedar but I'll be damned if I ever tasted hints of spring rain or "red meat" in a Cigar. I'm sure you guys have read these things in "expert" reviews. My point is I want to read a review by a normal person whos paleat can't idenify 756 tastes, smells, and whatever else is hanging around down there. I want to understand what the opinion is and try to experience it for myself. After all, when I read a review, buy the product then experience it, I don't want the hammer I just bought to have volume controls on it. I look forward to everyman reviews that I can relate to and want to trust with no fear of being scammed by a distributer or manufacturer. Now thats my 2c and if these four guys are what I think they are then I will look forward to their reviews. As far as the business end of this, if it promotes the site giving it more status then find and dandy. If people want to judge and bemoan the happenings then blame the people not the site. I loook forward to this as a beginning and I'm really happy for the founders.


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## Rah55 (Feb 13, 2008)

Have any of you guys had any interaction with the folks at Cigar.com? On this site I asked if anybody had an opinion on the Indian Tabac Non Pareil as I was hanging fire on a bid on the devil site. Alex responded to me and was very clear that he had a vested interest. He also mentioned that it was not his favorite cigar from that factory. It was only when I pressed that he was willing to name some of the others. I think he really showed respect for the site and was very careful not to take advantage.

You might also take a look at the CCOM "radio" broadcasts on thier site. Tim and Donny really seem like regular guys. I have sent occasional comments to them about the show and have received answers that had nothing to do with cigars. I think Daniel has picked good people. Take a look for yourselves before you accuse those guys of capitalist self interest. At least try to know a person before you judge them or YOU become the elitist yourself.


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## baboruger (Jun 18, 2007)

I would not be saying anything about Alex or Cigar.com, I met Alex yesterday and he gave me some great cigars.

I just wanted to reply to you saying that I was not talking about cigar.com nor Alex. I am sure that there is a business + for them, that's a given, and more power to them, they are in the business to make money, and this could work out well for them. That's what business people do, make deals that benifit both sides. I hope they sell out of their inventory. That's was not and would not ever be my issue with this.

My intention was talking about this site and how this would help CigarLive, and to be honest, I am still trying to figure that out, but I will see. I can sort of see where Stogie is coming from, but again, I think that doing something to fix the member review section that is disorganized would be a good way to help with everyone, rather than create this group right now. Again, it is what it is, and I hope it works out.



Rah55 said:


> Have any of you guys had any interaction with the folks at Cigar.com? On this site I asked if anybody had an opinion on the Indian Tabac Non Pareil as I was hanging fire on a bid on the devil site. Alex responded to me and was very clear that he had a vested interest. He also mentioned that it was not his favorite cigar from that factory. It was only when I pressed that he was willing to name some of the others. I think he really showed respect for the site and was very careful not to take advantage.
> 
> You might also take a look at the CCOM "radio" broadcasts on thier site. Tim and Donny really seem like regular guys. I have sent occasional comments to them about the show and have received answers that had nothing to do with cigars. I think Daniel has picked good people. Take a look for yourselves before you accuse those guys of capitalist self interest. At least try to know a person before you judge them or YOU become the elitist yourself.


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## Rocky Rulz (Jan 5, 2008)

I just hope we are not 'whoring" ourselves for Cigar.com. I have been on other boards and they Suck!. Elitist snobs who judge by price rather than substance. I agree with both sides, but hope the FINAL 4 grows into more. I have nothing but admiration and respect for Every Damn One of You. I have met "real" people on this site. Note to MR Svenson: WE ARE CIGARLIVE! We are the Future! AMEN


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## Rah55 (Feb 13, 2008)

Hi Brent,

That note was actually just a general comment and not intended fro anyone specific.

Hope you didn't take it personally.


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## terrasco-cl (Mar 4, 2007)

Wow! I have to say that this has been an incredible discussion. The fact that so many members had valuable feedback and were able to discuss the situation openly is impressive. There were a lot of good points made.


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## ashauler (May 11, 2007)

mitro said:


> The blind panels are a tool for the manufacturer to gauge what they want to sell. So this increased "credibility" means they'll get to use the CL members even more to get there market research done?
> 
> In my eyes, the credibility of the opinions on CL goes down as its tailored to be a more useful tool for those who sell to the participants in this community.


Best post in the whole thread. Sums it up pretty well.


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## cigarsarge-cl (Mar 31, 2007)

I'd be careful of who this board is is teaming up with. cigar.com is not favored by many folks in the cigar world...Check their prices on Opus and Anejo to find out why.

The "expert" thing is rather degrading to members. If I remember correctly everyone here is equal. I remember a big deal was made about the term "newbie". It was deamed to be called demeaning. Seems like there is a class system in place here if the term "expert" is alowed to remain.

This is a bad move for the board.


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## Stogie (Feb 13, 2007)

cigarsarge said:


> I'd be careful of who this board is is teaming up with. cigar.com is not favored by many folks in the cigar world...Check their prices on Opus and Anejo to find out why.
> 
> The "expert" thing is rather degrading to members. If I remember correctly everyone here is equal. I remember a big deal was made about the term "newbie". It was deamed to be called demeaning. Seems like there is a class system in place here if the term "expert" is alowed to remain.
> 
> This is a bad move for the board.


Good to see you posting again Sarge. Where did you go?


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## cigarsarge-cl (Mar 31, 2007)

Stogie said:


> Good to see you posting again Sarge. Where did you go?


I'm here every day...I still care about this place enough to be completely honest with you and the other members.

If you want me to stop posting LMK.


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## Stogie (Feb 13, 2007)

cigarsarge said:


> I'm here every day...I still care about this place enough to be completely honest with you and the other members.
> 
> If you want me to stop posting LMK.


Simply asked where did you go? I used to see you post all the time and had not noticed alot of posting from you. What's up?


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## foolwithnohair (Jan 14, 2008)

hayward_tenney said:


> Finally, a larger sample pool could only serve to reinforce the legitimacy of the panel's opinions, IMO. That is a raw, inarguable, statistical fact.


It is not a raw, inarguable, statistical fact. It is a raw, inarguable, fact that Truman defeated Dewey, which is perhaps the best example of the fallacy that larger sample pools are better.

We now return to our regular discussion .

IMHO, ratings are fine, free cigars are fine, more industry exposure is fine, using the word "expert" is fine (especially if you want more industry exposure), and someone else doing it is very fine with me.

Some comments:
- The 100 point scale is nice, but is usually made up of component scores, e.g., CA's. If so, then knowing these component scores is important to consumers, as, for example, one might not care what the wrapper looks like.
- Similarly, knowing each reviewer's scores is also important to consumers. A person's tastes may be more in-line with one reviewer than another, and, as time goes on, consumers can see that.
- I stress "consumers" above, as neither concept is something manufacturers are interested in (which is, I guess, one reason why CA does not release this information).
- Who determines which cigars are reviewed, and the order? What is going to happen with cigars that cigar.com does not have available? Or with cigars that only cigar.com sells? Cigars that haven't been released? Or with manufacturers that sponsor the board directly? It appears that bias is a major concern. A written declaration of selection and reviewing principles could go a long way to addressing that concern.

Finally, I believe that any reviews that are not blind are useful only as entertainment, and can be useless and/or misleading for making a decision to purchase.

Good luck!


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## Stogie (Feb 13, 2007)

cigarsarge said:


> I'm here every day...I still care about this place enough to be completely honest with you and the other members.
> 
> If you want me to stop posting LMK.


One other question too. I noticed all your profile fields say "None of your business". *Why is that?*


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## cigarsarge-cl (Mar 31, 2007)

Stogie said:


> Simply asked where did you go? I used to see you post all the time and had not noticed alot of posting from you. What's up?


I've not been posting much anywhere...My job has become really demanding time wise and I'd rather spend time with my family than spend hours on the internet.

I check in daily on the boards I frequent...Just don't post much.


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## cigarsarge-cl (Mar 31, 2007)

Stogie said:


> One other question too. I noticed all your profile fields say "None of your business". *Why is that?*


I caught some garbage from some folks...I deleted my info from all the boards I frequent. Those that know me know how to reach me.

The garbage came form a few folks here. The "none of your business" thing was directed at them.


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## Stogie (Feb 13, 2007)

cigarsarge said:


> I caught some garbage from some folks...I deleted my info from all the boards I frequent. Those that know me know how to reach me.


Ok cool! I remember the last I had talked with you was when you won the $100 gift certificate for the Contest hosted by Cigarmony. It is kinda good to have manufacturers and retailers donate stuff to help drive interest.

http://www.cigarlive.com/forum/t1243-wina-100-gift-certificate-to-cigarmonycom.html

Hope you have a great weekend.


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## cigarsarge-cl (Mar 31, 2007)

Stogie said:


> Ok cool! I remember the last I had talked with you was when you won the $100 gift certificate for the Contest hosted by Cigarmony. It is kinda good to have manufacturers and retailers donate stuff to help drive interest.
> 
> http://www.cigarlive.com/forum/t1243-wina-100-gift-certificate-to-cigarmonycom.html
> 
> Hope you have a great weekend.


That is not a true statment...We talked via PM many times since them. I posted much since then.

Lets talk about the term "newbie". You told me in a PM that term was unaccepable. How is the term "expert" any less unacceptable in a forum where all members are equal. Seems like favorites are being played...Something you condemed from the very start of this board.

Lets talk about cigar.com. I recently bought some Opus PLs. They charge three times what I paid for mine...Yet you welcomed them with open arms. It is nice when people in the cigar industry donate to the consumer. It is wrong to charge three times MSRP for a cigar.

Think about what you are doing...


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## cigarsarge-cl (Mar 31, 2007)

http://www.cigarlive.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2514

Check post 33...


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## Architeuthis (Mar 31, 2007)

Squid® has been busy lately... It appears I've missed a thing or two... <G> I'll make a decision on this sometime this week-end, and naturally, all shall abide by my ruling... <Double G>


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## jitzy (Jan 7, 2007)

cigarsarge said:


> http://www.cigarlive.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2514
> 
> Check post 33...


wow look at me in post 11 predicting 2000 members in one year.

If guys would however try to read that whole thread its got alot of good insight into the board and most of it still holds true 6 months later even the expert review pannel was discussed in it.


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## tekeeladude-cl (Mar 13, 2007)

baldheadracing said:


> It is not a raw, inarguable, statistical fact. It is a raw, inarguable, fact that Truman defeated Dewey, which is perhaps the best example of the fallacy that larger sample pools are better.
> 
> We now return to our regular discussion .
> 
> ...


Craig,
We have come up with a guideline for coming up with the rating for each cigar. We feel providing how we come up with the rating is very important and this information will be included with each review. We will list a combined rating and list each reviewer's rating.

So far I have come up with the list of the cigars we are going to review. However each member has been asked for their input into this selection. We may at times review cigars produced or sold only through cigar.com, but this is our decision, and not the decision of cigar.com. As for cigars not available on cigar.com -- we have not had to deal with this issue yet. Alex at cigar.com advised Daniel they have access to most cigars available on the market and should be able to get us what we need for the reviews. The only unreleased cigar even discussed at this point has been the Live cigar. We have plans to review this cigar, but to keep from appearing biased, we have agreed to only providing tasting notes with no rating. There may be times when we review cigars made by our sponsors. When the reviews and ratings are done, they will be based on the quality and taste of a cigar - not by who manufacturers the cigar. We all take pride in being a part of CigarLive and we would not want our actions to ever have a negative influence this forum. If that means we give a sponsor's cigar a lower rating based on quality and taste, then so be it.

The goal of this review panel is to provide the members of CigarLive a real-world, average-smoker review of a cigar. As Bill (mrgatorman) has already pointed out, we are average guys who enjoy cigars and have all agreed to put forth the effort to make this work.


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## LkyLindy (Feb 1, 2008)

Wow--

I cannot believe the rancor that the word "expert" has elicited from the membership--Who the hell cares??Its only semantics Are guys so intimidated and insecure that THEY aren't experts also-Obviously the phrase is being used to give credence to the panel--It wouldn't look to good to have a panel of amateurs would it??

Actually I have an idea that may address the problem of only 4 people sampling the cigars--Maybe there could be a corresponding "members" rating for each smoke based on "subjective" tastes-- in other words a Popular opinion rating for the everyman and the well documented and objective opinion or rating for the connoisseur


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## baboruger (Jun 18, 2007)

tekeeladude said:


> We all take pride in being a part of CigarLive and we would not want our actions to ever have a negative influence this forum. If that means we give a sponsor's cigar a lower rating based on quality and taste, then so be it.


I wish you luck with this as the temptation will be there to not offend the people who are the sponsors, but I think that you guys will be able to so this. I just know that there has been afew cases where the word came down to not "rock the boat". I think this will be your hardest challenge.



LkyLindy said:


> Wow--
> 
> I cannot believe the rancor that the word "expert" has elicited from the membership--Who the hell cares??Its only semantics Are guys so intimidated and insecure that THEY aren't experts also-Obviously the phrase is being used to give credence to the panel--It wouldn't look to good to have a panel of amateurs would it??


As for this point, I understand what you are saying, but I just think the word Expert sets up a sort of elite class and that is something that I though was to be avoided here. I guess by setting up the reviews as "Expert" all of the other reviews here would be considered amature and as you say it would not look good to have a panel of amatures, so that's my only point. I think all of the reviews here are good and valid, and I just think the word somehow demeans them. I'm not intimidated or offended, but your comment makes it sound like amature reviews are not good. As the 4 guys in the panel (well two of them) have said, they are ordinary guys, amatures if you will, so I just still don't get it.

I'm not against the idea, I think it is good, but I just think the presentation might cause more harm than good. That's all.

I do wish them all luck and look forward to reading the reviews, I hope others will continue to review cigars as well.


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## foolwithnohair (Jan 14, 2008)

Russ, thanks muchly for the information. Much appreciated. 

So ... if I understand this correctly, the fantastic four are experts in being average guys? 

j/k. I look forward to the reviews! Onwards!


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## tobacmon (May 17, 2007)

Someone clarify for me so I will know how this works.I don't quite yet understand who makes the decisions for the Community-- is it the members or a selected group of individuals? This is the confusing part of this community and really would just like some clarity. I have seen other boards put things up for discussion before proceeding. I'm confused ????


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## ashauler (May 11, 2007)

Stogie said:


> Ok cool! I remember the last I had talked with you was when you won the $100 gift certificate for the Contest hosted by Cigarmony. It is kinda good to have manufacturers and retailers donate stuff to help drive interest.
> 
> http://www.cigarlive.com/forum/t1243-wina-100-gift-certificate-to-cigarmonycom.html
> 
> Hope you have a great weekend.


Sad. You defend this poor decision by insinuating that the sarge is hypocritical and motivated by freebies and contests. What a load of crap, as is the public questioning of his profile contents...........


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## Architeuthis (Mar 31, 2007)

baboruger said:


> I agree, but then it is not a board thing, rather an exclusive club of 4 moderators who are doing this. That's my point. It is a slippery slope as someone said, and I hope this does not led to more exclusions in things.


I for one have never considered myself an "expert"... I have found that a few people take my recommendations seriously though. Some time back I gave up doing cigar reviews for two reasons; firstly it's a lot of work to be accurate and unbiased as well as informative; secondly I did not want to be viewed as an expert or a reviewer. Of the four or five hundred reviews I've done, only a few are here on CigarLive, not for any reason other than that's the time I decided to give up reviewing.

Although I find nothing wrong with the Expert Panel idea, I would like to think that it doesn't over-shadow the reviews put out by other CigarLive members. And I hope it doesn't discourage others from posting their reviews either.

As a final thought, I would also hope that nobody gets resentful or feels slighted by not being asked to join the Expert Panel.


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## Doogie (Oct 15, 2007)

this is Joey Bears comment
I do think non-experts should be able to chime in on their opinions of cigars, after the experts have rated them.
I think that is a great idea. have a section where the regular guy can give their opinion after the experts ( I have no problem with the word expert)

Daniel
As I said in my first post, I will support you in this quest. You should be proud of this board,there are almost a 100 posts on a very controversial issue and everybody is voicing their opinions in a professional manor. That is a credit to you and the board you set up. Just be careful of the slippery slope


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## Lok17 (Jul 31, 2007)

Anyone else think way too big a deal is being made of this?


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## Architeuthis (Mar 31, 2007)

Lok17 said:


> Anyone else think way too big a deal is being made of this?


Dude! Join in the argument! It's not like you have anything better to do... <G> HAW!


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## Lok17 (Jul 31, 2007)

architeuthis said:


> Dude! Join in the argument! It's not like you have anything better to do... <G> HAW!


OK, I am for whatever the Squid doesn't want. HAW! <G>


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## jitzy (Jan 7, 2007)

Lok17 said:


> Anyone else think way too big a deal is being made of this?


I would say yes and no we are a community and this issue is important to allot of people on here myself included. Now I will say some things are more important to other people that might not be that important to me but to someone there still important and thats why we have a open dialogue like this. My biggest concern with all this was aligning ourselves with such a big company when we are more of a B&M loving community and I'd hate to see guys like Mike from Leaf & Ale get shut out in this venture. The thing that scares me most with this is not for all the members we have now just a few, and the ones who haven't joined yet there are alot of guys just getting into this hobby and might not realize all there options for buying. I myself know there are alot of places out there to place an order and could search thru 15 different sites to find the best deal, but thats me someone else might say oh look there's a link right there for the cigar and buy it (and yes I know thats what Cigar.com is banking on) now I do understand Alex is a member of this community to and has had some helpful insight to different things, he may not have been as generous as Mike but he has been helpful none the less. I would like to see Alex and some other B&M guys comment in this thread and give us there fellings on all this.


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## jitzy (Jan 7, 2007)

Lok17 said:


> OK, I am for whatever the Squid doesn't want. HAW! <G>


now thats funny:biggrin:


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## Lok17 (Jul 31, 2007)

jitzy said:


> now thats funny:biggrin:


It's funny because it's true....


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## chubzerous (Jun 9, 2007)

Lok17 said:


> Anyone else think way too big a deal is being made of this?


Yes. 
I value all reviews. I think there will still be ample opportunity for individuals to voice their opinions on cigars, food, pipes, etc...


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## cigarsarge-cl (Mar 31, 2007)

ashauler said:


> Sad. You defend this poor decision by insinuating that the sarge is hypocritical and motivated by freebies and contests. What a load of crap, as is the public questioning of his profile contents...........


It's called wagging the dog...I asked some serious questions that have not been answered.

I'll ask them one more time...How is the term "expert" any more acceptable than the term "newbie" on a board that declares all members equal?

How does supporting a company that charges several times MSRP for certain cigars going to benefit this community?

The questions are simple...


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## Da Klugs (Jan 8, 2005)

cigarsarge said:


> It's called wagging the dog...I asked some serious questions that have not been answered.
> 
> I'll ask them one more time...How is the term "expert" any more acceptable than the term "newbie" on a board that declares all members equal?
> 
> ...


But those darn answers can be sooo tough. 

Reminds me of a quote from a Frank Herbert book..

"One of the key characteristics of an elite corps is its susceptibility to those more powerful than itself. Elite power is naturally attracted to a power hierarchy and fits itself neatly, obediently into the one that promises the most personal benefits. Here is the Achilles' heel of armies, police and bureaucracies."

That more powerful force in this case of course being the inclination of the many participants here to continue to participate in the face of actions that do not match up with representations, or more accurately, pronouncements.

Repeat after me....

I am an individual,
I have free will....



This board is confusing for the thoughtful in that you are never really sure where the "retailers area" stops and the individual opinion begins. If I were a college professor this would definitely be a homework assignment as a great study in the course of Emarketing. Kudos to the site owner for such an elegant demonstration of this new phenomena.


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## cigarsarge-cl (Mar 31, 2007)

da klugs said:


> But those darn answers can be sooo tough.
> 
> Reminds me of a quote from a Frank Herbert book..
> 
> ...


Dave...The answer is pretty simple. You seem to know the answer as well as many others. This place is a business venture. It's all about money.


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## Da Klugs (Jan 8, 2005)

cigarsarge said:


> Dave...The answer is pretty simple. You seem to know the answer as well as many others. This place is a business venture. It's all about money.


Nah not all. But it's confusing to a new member and takes some time to understand the difference between "opinion" and "opinions disguising vested self interests".


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## cigarsarge-cl (Mar 31, 2007)

da klugs said:


> Nah not all. But it's confusing to a new member and takes some time to understand the difference between "opinion" and "opinions disguising vested self interests".


OK...I get it now.


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## mitro-cl (Jul 5, 2007)

Dave, why is it you have to throw your 2 cents in here? Don't you have a nice comfy board somewhere else with a bunch of worshipers to fan you and feed you grapes?


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## LkyLindy (Feb 1, 2008)

*Whats the Beef????*



cigarsarge said:


> It's called wagging the dog...I asked some serious questions that have not been answered.
> 
> I'll ask them one more time...How is the term "expert" any more acceptable than the term "newbie" on a board that declares all members equal?
> 
> ...


Sarge- seems that you are in a vituperative mood but What is the big deal???

Look-I left another site after I found that it was aligned with a specific brand--I wanted an unbiased free information site--I believe this is it---Dan wants to set up a high quality review system that would be the paradigm for the industry--You have to start somewhere somehow--and for credibility the reviewers need experience and lets say"credentials"--Well you need to call these people by some title and it can't be NOVICE--So big deal -they are experts--I'm sure a lot of other members here would be just as qualified BUT again-you have to start somewhere

As far as Cigar.com goes--This website and the plans Dan has for it cost money honey--Who's going to pay for Dans costs-Me? you ? the members??--How about a membership fee??are you willing for that to happen??

So Cigar is willing to donate smokes for advertising--so what??that happens on most websites-thats how they make money or at least pay for costs--Ok lets say they charge 3X's as much as other sites--Thats what we call free market economy--GO TO ANOTHER VENDOR--Let your feet do the voting-Nothing is stopping you from finding a better deal-in fact How can Cigar even exist if they price themselves out of the competitive process??
Do you think a deep discount website working on volume margins could afford to give us free smokes--I don't think so---SOOOOOO .......get the free smokes from Cigar and then BUY somewhere else if you choose to

Finally--Truth be told -this is DAn's site and he has the right to make some moolah on this venture and try different ideas--Again --free market place--If you disagree so strongly--Take a pass(hike)--Go somewhere else thats more to your liking----If enough negative feelins and departures reach Dan --I'm sure he will get the message and listen to the true majority

Nuff said--Damn I need a smoke !!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Da Klugs (Jan 8, 2005)

mitro said:


> Dave, why is it you have to throw your 2 cents in here? Don't you have a nice comfy board somewhere else with a bunch of worshipers to fan you and feed you grapes?


It's not a board its a home... the worshipers are my 4 cats and dog. Anyone you feed regularly becomes a big fan.


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## aljrka (Dec 3, 2007)

JUST DO IT!!! I'm all for this deal because if it does work out for the betterment of CL then great, if not then we tried and it's better to try then to not try at all!


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## degarbie (Aug 12, 2007)

It'll be interesting to see where the review panel idea goes. I don't have much to say on it, as most of the concerns and questions I had have already been answered. 

However, I have to say that I can't see this giving rise to a clique or being used as an exclusion or bludgeon ("We are the experts and you're not, so be quiet") as this doesn't fit me as sitting well with the style of the board or its members, nor can I see that it will suddenly become a wholly-owned subsidiary just because cigar.com has some links on here. There's enough of a range of people here that I think CL will cope and well.


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## cigarsarge-cl (Mar 31, 2007)

LkyLindy said:


> Sarge- seems that you are in a vituperative mood but What is the big deal???
> 
> Look-I left another site after I found that it was aligned with a specific brand--I wanted an unbiased free information site--I believe this is it---Dan wants to set up a high quality review system that would be the paradigm for the industry--You have to start somewhere somehow--and for credibility the reviewers need experience and lets say"credentials"--Well you need to call these people by some title and it can't be NOVICE--So big deal -they are experts--I'm sure a lot of other members here would be just as qualified BUT again-you have to start somewhere
> 
> ...


You are missing the entire point. Daniel by his own words said the vison of this entire board was to make all members equal. He said the term "newbie" was not proper. He then decides to make some elite by calling them "experts". He can't have it both ways and remain credible.

He aligns with a vendor that charges several times MSRP for cigars. Obviously he condones this practice. I ask you...Is this healthy for the industry or this board? Do some research and find out what the Fuente folks think about this practice...After all it is the Opus and Anejo line this is happening with.

Is Daniel's main interest in bettering the community or is it making a profit form it? It's time for some honesty and consistancy.


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## LkyLindy (Feb 1, 2008)

degarbie said:


> It'll be interesting to see where the review panel idea goes. I don't have much to say on it, as most of the concerns and questions I had have already been answered.
> 
> However, I have to say that I can't see this giving rise to a clique or being used as an exclusion or bludgeon ("We are the experts and you're not, so be quiet") as this doesn't fit me as sitting well with the style of the board or its members, nor can I see that it will suddenly become a wholly-owned subsidiary just because cigar.com has some links on here. There's enough of a range of people here that I think CL will cope and well.


Thats correct--and again if we the members don't like whats going on-then we can vote with our feet (Bigfoot style  )


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## LkyLindy (Feb 1, 2008)

Sarge--

Look-we are dueling over semantics--A new person to any profession,practice , or WEB SITE is a "new person or a "newbie"--This term doesn't mean you are not equal,it just means you are new to the boards--Actually kind of comical--On my fishing website we call them "googins"--puts a smile on peoples faces--no biggie--
Also truth be told-people like to be recognized for their contributions and longevity--Hence awards and seniority status titles--yes a titled system--but in good spirit

Again-how can you set up a respected review panel without calling the paneal "something"--on the board we might say "reviewers" but for the world at large they must be held to a higher standard to be legitimate--Hence "experts"--Look you can call them the 4 "assholes" if it makes you feel better -LOL(just kidding guys)

As far as the cigar com thing--Maybe you know something that I don't--But I am a business person and this is the way things are done--Does not mean we are beholden to them for more than advertising--Still free choice for us--buy from them or not--no other conditions--If things are not that way -if we become a tool of another company --Well then we can all say Adios (or not)--Free to come or go as we like


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## jitzy (Jan 7, 2007)

LkyLindy said:


> Sarge- seems that you are in a vituperative mood but What is the big deal???
> 
> Look-I left another site after I found that it was aligned with a specific brand--I wanted an unbiased free information site--I believe this is it---Dan wants to set up a high quality review system that would be the paradigm for the industry--You have to start somewhere somehow--and for credibility the reviewers need experience and lets say"credentials"--Well you need to call these people by some title and it can't be NOVICE--So big deal -they are experts--I'm sure a lot of other members here would be just as qualified BUT again-you have to start somewhere
> 
> ...


Alot of good points here First as far as members donating to the site I asked Daniel about this and he said he wouldn't do that why would someone pay for something that they get for free and I agree with him, now I know your board does this Daklugs and thats cool bit Daniel dosent want to and I think its a good idea as I think it works over at C.S. it just wouldn't work here.
As far as the comment about people who worship Da klugs unfortunately they do if you went on your site and said you had a backwoods last night you'd have a bunch of guys chiming in saying that backwoods are an amazing cigar and run out to get them. unfortunatly the reason for this is your generosity you treat everyone over there great and becouse of that you can do or say no wrong. as far as the sarge's Daniel is in this for the money I feel that couldn't be further from the truth his wife wanted to kill him after he went for the new server to make this a more up to date place for all of us.
Do I agree with whats going on now NO but like I said I would like to see where this goes and I really would like to have some of the B&M guys speak up in this thread along with cigar.com.

and finally let those who haven't bought from cigar.com, cigars international, and c-bid cast the first stone.


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## Doogie (Oct 15, 2007)

there seems to be people posting on this thread with thier own agendas. why all of a sudden they are posting quite often is beyond me. they seem to be trying to drive a wedge between the members. I have said my peace on this subject and I'm done with this thread. 
ITS YOUR BOARD DANIEL


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## cigarsarge-cl (Mar 31, 2007)

jitzy said:


> and finally let those who haven't bought from cigar.com, cigars international, and c-bid cast the first stone.


Don't get me wrong here...If you want to do business with any of these vendors go right ahead. They all produce what you purchase from them...If you have the $$ they have the product. I'm just not gonna pay several times over MSRP for any cigar.


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## LkyLindy (Feb 1, 2008)

*There you go*



cigarsarge said:


> Don't get me wrong here...If you want to do business with any of these vendors go right ahead. They all produce what you purchase from them...If you have the $$ they have the product. I'm just not gonna pay several times over MSRP for any cigar.


Perfect--thats my exact point


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## jitzy (Jan 7, 2007)

sarge the one thing I will say is as far as fuente goes maybe if the took some of there stock out of the factory and stopped with the so called limited realeases people wouldn't gouge us for them, hell Ive been to B&M's that would rip you off for them.


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## foolwithnohair (Jan 14, 2008)

architeuthis said:


> Thread-jack!!! Thread-jack!!! <g>


Yeah, I'll start a new thread.


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## Architeuthis (Mar 31, 2007)

baldheadracing said:


> Yeah, I'll start a new thread.


By the way, I have BaldHeadRacing decals on the back bumper of the SquidMobile®... <G>


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## Stogie (Feb 13, 2007)

Come on guys!


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## stlcards (Sep 14, 2007)

Stogie said:


> Come on guys!


I thought you were offline!:spiderman:


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## Stogie (Feb 13, 2007)

stlcards said:


> I thought you were offline!:spiderman:


The power of the BlackBerry. I am starting to think I might have a way for members that have very strong feelings about this subject to get involved to prove out thier own theorys.

What if we let each member that is willing to do it host thier own panel. They decide on the rating system, number of people, how to ship, how to cover cost for shipping etc. They buy the cigars or get donations some how and take the whole thing from start to finish. After all the panels are complete we can look at the results and see how many followed thru and what kind of data they were able to come up with.

It would almost be like hosting a contest but instead you would host your own panel. I say if we have a few guys that really believe that they could pull it off then we may be able to learn alot.

Who will volunteer? I will make a new section and we can make a new thread to discuss it.


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## Architeuthis (Mar 31, 2007)

Sorry... Ahem... Well...

I actually *AM* in favour of a CigarLive Expert Panel. It doesn't mean the same type of thing as "Expert" said with a slight sneer and a fake accent... What I think it means in the case of CigarLive is that these four people are judged to be stand-up members of CigarLive; the type of people you'd loan $20 to without worrying (except in Bill's case...); the sort of people whom you might disagree with concerning a specific cigar, but you'd not doubt their complete honesty... This seems to be the gist of this effort. Can any of you honestly say you would doubt that a review by any one of these four wouldn't be completely honest?

Okay, I'm done... <G>


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## Stogie (Feb 13, 2007)

Here is the thread to the new section:

http://www.cigarlive.com/forum/t17415-host-your-own-review-panel.html

Have fun and I look forward to the outcome. This will be fun.


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## LkyLindy (Feb 1, 2008)

UMMMMMMmm

Do I detect sarcasm????????????


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## tx_tuff (Jun 16, 2007)

architeuthis said:


> Sorry... Ahem... Well...
> 
> I actually *AM* in favour of a CigarLive Expert Panel. It doesn't mean the same type of thing as "Expert" said with a slight sneer and a fake accent... What I think it means in the case of CigarLive is that these four people are judged to be stand-up members of CigarLive; the type of people you'd loan $20 to without worrying (except in Bill's case...); the sort of people whom you might disagree with concerning a specific cigar, but you'd not doubt their complete honesty... This seems to be the gist of this effort. Can any of you honestly say you would doubt that a review by any one of these four wouldn't be completely honest?
> 
> Okay, I'm done... <G>


Time this is the best post you have made in a long time  and you are 100% right one brother!


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## Stogie (Feb 13, 2007)

LkyLindy said:


> UMMMMMMmm
> 
> Do I detect sarcasm????????????


Really I like to run with new Ideas.


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## ArrowJ (Mar 19, 2008)

Stogie said:


> What if we let each member that is willing to do it host thier own panel. They decide on the rating system, number of people, how to ship, how to cover cost for shipping etc. They buy the cigars or get donations some how and take the whole thing from start to finish. After all the panels are complete we can look at the results and see how many followed thru and what kind of data they were able to come up with.


Message received: I love the idea of having a Cigar Live expert panel.


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## tx_tuff (Jun 16, 2007)

Aaron that is totaly not the point at all! In fact I am going to try and do a tasting panel myself because I think it will be fun! If you go to the review section you will see there is a new place for this. Hopefully tomorrow I will have my idea down and start recruiting people to be on my panel. I just talked to Daniel and he hopes this will take off I kinda turn out to be like bombs and passes. And I think what better way to get to know some members you don't! I'm not picking people I smoke with all the time but some I prob really don't know at all. Anyway I think you missed the point.


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## ArrowJ (Mar 19, 2008)

tx_tuff said:


> Anyway I think you missed the point.


That does happen from time to time...to time......to time. :huh_oh:

I just want to clarify that while I have (like so many others) my own opinion on the "best" way to do this new thing, in the end I stand behind Daniel. Surely he has the boards best interest in mind, and if things end up needing tweaked he will do it.

I think a few of the guys got a little too excited about this. Daniel has obviously put tons of time and money into this board. I can't imagine he would knowingly do something that he thought was even remotely possible of damaging it.

I certainly don't have a problem with other types of reviews being held by members, but I'm still going to support the expert panel and see how it comes out in the end.

One thing is certain: the expert reviews will necessarily be more informative than my audio reviews on the podcast :lol:


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## mrgatorman (Mar 23, 2007)

Squiddy...Loan me $20



architeuthis said:


> Sorry... Ahem... Well...
> 
> I actually *AM* in favour of a CigarLive Expert Panel. It doesn't mean the same type of thing as "Expert" said with a slight sneer and a fake accent... What I think it means in the case of CigarLive is that these four people are judged to be stand-up members of CigarLive; the type of people you'd loan $20 to without worrying (except in Bill's case...); the sort of people whom you might disagree with concerning a specific cigar, but you'd not doubt their complete honesty... This seems to be the gist of this effort. Can any of you honestly say you would doubt that a review by any one of these four wouldn't be completely honest?
> 
> Okay, I'm done... <G>


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## Architeuthis (Mar 31, 2007)

mrgatorman said:


> Squiddy...Loan me $20


Heh... I'm fresh out! All I have left is these hundreds... <G>


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## Tristan-cl (May 22, 2007)

I personally like this idea; I think it will give us as a community another avenue to use to explore the world of Cigars. The way I envision our future here, perhaps we each find a cigar expert panel member that we particularly meld with, that shares our opinions on taste and cigar preferences. If that is the case, if the experts are not afraid to deviate from one another in opinion, I think this could be a very good thing.

I agree about the class system difficulty that boxer757 mentioned, but I also know that these members are incredibly hard workers on the forum, and deserve the recognition they get.

Here's to the success of the program!


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## Architeuthis (Mar 31, 2007)

mrgatorman said:


> Squiddy...Loan me $20


DAMN! Bill, I just noticed that you are going rapidly towards TWICE the number of posts as Squid®... Calm down a bit! I know Jumpin' Johnnie ain't around anymore, but we DON'T need a replacement! <G>

To be slightly serious for the rest of CigarLive who might not know: Squid® and Bill have been sharing insults back and forth for exactly one year and one day as of 2008/04/09. HAH!


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## LkyLindy (Feb 1, 2008)

You two are out and out miscreants


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## Ceedee (Jun 2, 2006)

First off, Hey y'all! I was away for a while taking care of some family business. It was a loooooong week and a half for me, and I am just now getting my sea legs back, so to speak, so excuse me if I am not fully up to speed with regard to recent goings on.

That being said, I did get a chance to read some comments on this Panel issue. For me, the issues that some have with Cigar.com are waaaaay overblown. I can however, identify with the opinions of the people whom have disagreed with the concept. I DO see how people could, if so disposed, could come to more "sinister" or at least negative conclusions on how things will be run. In my gut I really feel however, that this idea and concept that Daniel has come up with will be a neat bit of history for CigarLive.

I want to say this - I in no way consider myself an "expert" above the rest of the good folk here on CL and I really don't want to be thought of as a symbol for what some may perceive as a negative as opposed to something positive for the CL webspace and community. My intentions and I know the intentions of Daniel, Russ and the others involved, is one of greater inclusion for the larger Cigar industry for our home here. I never imagined that such vitriol and negativity would come of this idea. Never. I guess I was either naive, unthinking or perhaps I have made other errors in judgment, I simply don't know.

For me though, cigars are cigars. I love enjoying them - enjoying friendships that involve others of like mind and inclination as well. I really could care less about getting any free cigars as I have way more than I could smoke already. All I want to do is share with the good people of this community and help in any way I can. Most of all, I want to relax and revel in my friendships and in the camaraderie that cigar smoking entails. I don't have ulterior motives or the need to seek self-aggrandizement. I also really don't need any extra shit piled on my shoulders and head for what amounts to *not much* in my personal opinion.

With that in mind, Daniel, Russ and the rest of the honorable mods and members here on CL, *I would like to formally request that I be LEFT OFF the "expert panel".*

The last week home with my family and my ill mother has taught me a lot. It's the simple things in life that make a difference. I don't have the time to hemm and haw about who, what, why and how the idea of the panel and the execution of said idea (a fine one as well in my opinion) was carried out. It really does not matter THAT MUCH to me. Really, in the grand scheme of things, "so f'ing what?"

I am sad that some have chosen to think poorly of those that they had declared "brother" and "friend" previously because of some silly misunderstanding, but I can see how this has come about. I just want to smoke some cigars with my friends and brothers and sisters. I don't want to be a touchstone for divisiveness. Perhaps our destiny as a community is one to to further our hobby/lifestyle and perhaps it is one that treads new ground for the better. I just hope that the ghosts of the "past" and the status quo won't cause CL to become just another place to hang your hat. I really so much want that not to be true. It's up to us though. I am very interested in being part of a solution here rather than a problem in and of myself. Let's keep the matter moving forward.

Most sincerely,

Chris Darling


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## alanf (Jan 12, 2007)

Chris, 

I understand your feelings, but I, for one, will miss the insights you would have to share as a member of the "expert" panel.  

Alan

Edit: I'm sad.


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## chubzerous (Jun 9, 2007)

Wow, now this has gone WAY to far! Titles are meaningless. Your contribution in this endeavor does not make you an "enemy of the state" and if anyone feels that way they are FOS! Daniel needed to pick a few people to take on the task and I think he did a great job. If you are declining due to personal issues then that is your business, but if you are declining based on a few opinions about being called an "Expert" then I feel obligated to dissuade you. You have contributed significantly to what Cigar Live is and hopefully will be. 

Just my 2 cents.


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## jitzy (Jan 7, 2007)

chubzerous said:


> Wow, now this has gone WAY to far! Titles are meaningless. Your contribution in this endeavor does not make you an "enemy of the state" and if anyone feels that way they are FOS! Daniel needed to pick a few people to take on the task and I think he did a great job. If you are declining due to personal issues then that is your business, but if you are declining based on a few opinions about being called an "Expert" then I feel obligated to dissuade you. You have contributed significantly to what Cigar Live is and hopefully will be.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.


CD, chubs sums it up pretty good here. Yes I voiced my concerns over this and a big reason was I don't like the idea of putting a link to purchase the cigars in the review thats just my feeling however the idea of getting the name of cigarlive out there is very appealing to me and if that means having a "4" member panel than thats what we should do, I understand how hard it is to get so many guys to do reviews and get them all in on time so for that its a good idea. I do have to say also you do very very good reviews and I would like to see you do the review panel so please don't give it up over a few of our concerns, fortunately for this board we are allowed to voice our concerns and not just do what the FOG tells us to do thats why alot of us stayed here its a group of grownups here who have there own opinions and not the opinion of what someone with 10,000 posts tells him what to do. How many other places could you see the members openly disagree with the administrator and the mods and the thread be allowed to get to this many posts. As I said earlier in another thread I may not agree with this but I will help to support it. OK someone take this soapbox from me I'm done.


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## Txbob (Feb 2, 2008)

I personally can't seeanything wrong with the concept. As anything else I am sure it will get tweaked as time goes on. I do think as statedit may bring a little more recognition to the CL Family. If growth, recognition and becoming more a player in the industry is the future intention then it's a good thing. On the other hand if thats not the intention, I'm not sure it does much harm. Just me 2 cents.


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## baboruger (Jun 18, 2007)

CD - Don't quit the panel...this thread has been a good discussion about CigarLive and really about what people think about this place. Even those of us who might not like the terminology used here, we really do show a passion for CL and for the board. I think that this has spawned many good ideas, including getting me off my large posterior and starting a state review panel. So good things have come from this.

I doubt that anyone would give you Sh*T about being on the review panel. I don't think anyone disagreed with the choices, it was just things like the # of people and the name. 

Well, I'll let it drop...


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## jitzy (Jan 7, 2007)

baboruger said:


> CD - Don't quit the panel...this thread has been a good discussion about CigarLive and really about what people think about this place. Even those of us who might not like the terminology used here, we really do show a passion for CL and for the board. I think that this has spawned many good ideas, including getting me off my large posterior and starting a state review panel. So good things have come from this.
> 
> I doubt that anyone would give you Sh*T about being on the review panel. I don't think anyone disagreed with the choices, it was just things like the # of people and the name.
> 
> Well, I'll let it drop...


Perfect statement


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## Ceedee (Jun 2, 2006)

Thank you gents for your well-thought comments, they have caused me to rethink my position. Let me think on my decision for day and get back to Russ, Daniel and all of you finally. Thanks again to all of you truly, for weighing in.

CD


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## Doogie (Oct 15, 2007)

Chris please stay on the panel. no one had any disagreement with the panel members. I personally loved the choices


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## Lok17 (Jul 31, 2007)

architeuthis said:


> Sorry... Ahem... Well...
> 
> I actually *AM* in favour of a CigarLive Expert Panel. It doesn't mean the same type of thing as "Expert" said with a slight sneer and a fake accent... What I think it means in the case of CigarLive is that these four people are judged to be stand-up members of CigarLive; the type of people you'd loan $20 to without worrying (except in Bill's case...); the sort of people whom you might disagree with concerning a specific cigar, but you'd not doubt their complete honesty... This seems to be the gist of this effort. Can any of you honestly say you would doubt that a review by any one of these four wouldn't be completely honest?
> 
> Okay, I'm done... <G>


I've met John Rider, and let me tell you, he is as shady as they come!!!! :smoke:


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## boxer757 (Apr 18, 2007)

Chris I for one hope you stay on the panel.


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## hiway_87 (Mar 16, 2008)

great work guys. can't wait to see the reviews.


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## Ceedee (Jun 2, 2006)

OK boys, count me in! In thinking it over and reading the various member comments and those from the mods as well, I think it would be really a shame to throw this opportunity away. I will relish the opportunity to participate as long as Daniel, Russ and you all find it proper. 

Thanks for bearing with me, you guys are the best - I mean that!

CD


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## jitzy (Jan 7, 2007)

Ceedee said:


> OK boys, count me in! In thinking it over and reading the various member comments and those from the mods as well, I think it would be really a shame to throw this opportunity away. I will relish the opportunity to participate as long as Daniel, Russ and you all find it proper.
> 
> Thanks for bearing with me, you guys are the best - I mean that!
> 
> CD


thats good chris glad to here


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## RGianelli (Jul 20, 2007)

Awesome..The pannel wouldn't have been complete without you...


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## LkyLindy (Feb 1, 2008)

Good decision Chris--we're behind you 100%


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## Shelby07 (May 1, 2007)

I haven't been posting too much, and just got around to reading this thread (actually I only got thru about the first 50 posts or so, but I think I got the drift.)

Here's my 2 cents...

The idea of a tasting panel for reviewing cigars where everyone could participate was tried and didn't pan out too well. The problem wasn't with cigars not being assigned to a select number of members, it was that cigars were sent to a large number of members, and many never completed the reviews. The result was lots of cigars being sent out and not a whole lot of reviews being posted. Keep that in mind and realize that this is an attempt to fix the problems that happened when Daniel did exactly what a bunch of you guys seem to be asking for. Besides, the tasting panels are not going away, so everyone here still has the opportunity to ask for and receive some free cigars to review. Just remember, if you make the commitment, follow through in a timely manner.

The idea of a few members who have put time and effort into growing this board being responsible for reviewing a few cigars is a good one. The folks selected have proven that they are willing and able to put time in and meet the commitments that they make. To me, that's the thing that's going to make or break any review panel. Some of the comments I've seen here seem to be from people who feel that everyone should have access to free cigars. Others don't like the word "expert." And still others can't see what benefits will be derived other than to cigar.com and the 4 people selected.

Let's talk about a few things here...

EXPERTS

Turn on the news and listen to 10 "experts" with 10 different opinions. An expert is not necessarily a person who has all the definitive answers. An expert is somebody who has a greater than average interest in a subject, has done research or has obtained knowledge through their experience, and is able to talk on a subject that they know something about. The 4 people that Stogie asked to be on the CL expert panel certainly fit into that category, as do many others here. With that in mind, I see no problem with the panel being called the CL expert panel.

BENEFITS ONLY 4 MEMBERS AND ADDS NOTHING TO THE BOARD

This sounds pretty self centered and I can't even believe that some feel this way. This is, after all, a cigar discussion board, not a place to come for free cigars. If that's the only reason you're here, then you are adding nothing. I have not been reading here for a while because I really don't find much new here about cigars any more. The board seems to be turning into a bombing board, with more pictures, awards, thank yous and "great hit" type postings. In fact, I think that Stogie only took care of half the problem when he stopped counting posts in the "Introduction" section. Some folks here have hundreds of posts counted to their activity with nothing more than "Nice Hit!" followed by a dribble icon in every bomb or picture thread. It's why I rarely look at the bombs or pictures sections any more. So I fail to see how cigar reviews would "add nothing" to the board.

BENEFITS CIGAR.COM

So what? They are providing cigars to be reviewed for the benefit of the people who read this board. They are asking for a link to their site in the hope of getting a return on their investment. That actually sounds pretty symbiotic to me. If you don't like their prices, the people who run the place, their way of doing business or anything else about them, then don't buy from them. But just because someone doesn't like them doesn't negate the benefit that is derived from them providing cigars for review.

ELITISM

I don't see it anywhere else on the board. I have no reason to expect that it will happen in this instance. Some will say I am turning a blind eye to a potential "problem," but past history has to count for something. Besides, I don't believe that at some point in time members of the panel will leave and others who have shown themelves to be up to the task and are willing to take on and follow through on their commitment will take their place. If anything, a panel such as this will give members here something to emulate other than sending out cigars.

GIVE A PLACE FOR THE REGULAR MOE TO REVIEW CIGARS

Any regular Moe can review cigars here. The problem is they don't seem to be doing so. Creating a special "Regular Moe Review Section" doesn't make any sense.

THE REVIEWS WILL BE SLANTED LIKE CA

I remember years ago during the CB radio craze folks would key their mics and ask what time it was. No one would answer because everyone thought it was a stupid question, or they would say something like "buy a watch." When I knew what time it was I would answer. But if I didn't, I would throw out some arbitrary time. There was never a shortage of folks to correct me.

Unlike CA, this is a discussion board. If the reviewers get it wrong I highly doubt that there will be any reluctance by the folks here to correct them. In fact, I think it'd be a good thing for members to add their own reviews to the thread after the panel's reviews are posted. 

WE NEED MORE THAN 4 REVIEWERS

Feel free to toss in a few hundred sticks. You'll get a few hundred volunteers and a few dozen reviews... or see above.

I have not spoken to Daniel or anyone else about this, but I think it's an attempt to get more discussion here about cigars. The review panels were not too successful, and I have discussed my feelings about why it failed in other threads. I won't revisit it here. However, I have no doubt that Daniel, the mods, and even the 4 members of the panel will be looking at this to see if it is working. As long as the process is continually reviewed and tweaked, it will get better. One thing this board doesn't do is to let thing that aren't working languish... but you gotta start somewhere.


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## Shelby07 (May 1, 2007)

jitzy said:


> I would say yes and no we are a community and this issue is important to allot of people on here myself included. Now I will say some things are more important to other people that might not be that important to me but to someone there still important and thats why we have a open dialogue like this. My biggest concern with all this was aligning ourselves with such a big company when we are more of a B&M loving community and I'd hate to see guys like Mike from Leaf & Ale get shut out in this venture. The thing that scares me most with this is not for all the members we have now just a few, and the ones who haven't joined yet there are alot of guys just getting into this hobby and might not realize all there options for buying. I myself know there are alot of places out there to place an order and could search thru 15 different sites to find the best deal, but thats me someone else might say oh look there's a link right there for the cigar and buy it (and yes I know thats what Cigar.com is banking on) now I do understand Alex is a member of this community to and has had some helpful insight to different things, he may not have been as generous as Mike but he has been helpful none the less. I would like to see Alex and some other B&M guys comment in this thread and give us there fellings on all this.


Getting down a bit further.

There would be nothing wrong with other vendors contributing a few sticks for reviews. Whoever gives the sticks can get a link.


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## Shelby07 (May 1, 2007)

LkyLindy said:


> Finally--Truth be told -this is DAn's site and he has the right to make some moolah on this venture and try different ideas...


I highly doubt that Daniel is making a dime here. A few cigars and a couple of sponsors can't possibly cover the thousands of dollars that I know this site with its dedicated servers, dedicated IP addresses and high speed lines are costing. Any software guy can confirm this. And considering the time that Daniel puts in here, (going rates for software engineers are way north of 50 bucks an hour nowadays) I have no doubt that this is definitely NOT a money making proposition.


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## Shelby07 (May 1, 2007)

ArrowJ said:


> How about this. If you want to have a better understanding of what the average Joe thinks of a particular cigar you are more likely to get that understanding if you ask more average Joe's about it, rather than asking one average Joe. Certainly you will run into a point of diminishing returns (as it were), but that point is not four.


An example that comes to mind... One of the best selling cigars in the world is Macanudo... not exactly my cup of tea, but something that would be rated as a very good cigar by the "average Joe."

At some point advertising takes over. I have no confidence in the opinion of the proverbial average Joe.


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## mitro-cl (Jul 5, 2007)

So we shouldn't bomb, report when we get bombed, or congratulate the bomber/bombee? Yeah... that opinion isn't even worth $.02.

I'm not looking for free cigars, EVER. The review panel isn't my concern. It was the use of the words "credibility" and "industry" that brought it to a screeching halt for me. I'm just not sure as to the motivation for making such a panel or doing a number of other thing regarding the "industry".


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## Lok17 (Jul 31, 2007)

mitro said:


> So we shouldn't bomb, report when we get bombed, or congratulate the bomber/bombee? Yeah... that opinion isn't even worth $.02.
> 
> I'm not looking for free cigars, EVER. The review panel isn't my concern. It was the use of the words "credibility" and "industry" that brought it to a screeching halt for me. I'm just not sure as to the motivation for making such a panel or doing a number of other thing regarding the "industry".


Mike, I can confidently say Shelby was not speaking about you!!  He was only reacting to what WAS actually posted earlier in this thread. I really do not get what the big deal is with this... I mean I, for one, am going to be very interested in seeing what these 4 guys have to say about each and every smoke they reveiw. I will prolly make it a point to grab a stick and smoke one and compare it to their reveiw. Who really cares if they are called experts. Not a lot of credibility would be associated with their reveiws if they were called the "Guys who smoke a lot of cigars but we can't call them anything profesional sounding reveiw panel, panel.."  This thread has already spawned two individual state reveiw panels. This whole thing was supposed to move the board forward and it already has in ways that I am pretty sure have were no where near the intent. I say cudos to Stogie for putting this together. I think it could be really great, and I am personally really looking forward to the Il/WI reveiw panel now. I think it will bring a whole new dimension to our herfs that we never would have had before. It's all due to this thread


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## jitzy (Jan 7, 2007)

Lok17 said:


> Mike, I can confidently say Shelby was not speaking about you!!  He was only reacting to what WAS actually posted earlier in this thread. I really do not get what the big deal is with this... I mean I, for one, am going to be very interested in seeing what these 4 guys have to say about each and every smoke they reveiw. I will prolly make it a point to grab a stick and smoke one and compare it to their reveiw. Who really cares if they are called experts. Not a lot of credibility would be associated with their reveiws if they were called the "Guys who smoke a lot of cigars but we can't call them anything profesional sounding reveiw panel, panel.."  This thread has already spawned two individual state reveiw panels. This whole thing was supposed to move the board forward and it already has in ways that I am pretty sure have were no where near the intent. I say cudos to Stogie for putting this together. I think it could be really great, and I am personally really looking forward to the Il/WI reveiw panel now. I think it will bring a whole new dimension to our herfs that we never would have had before. It's all due to this thread


lok, so since the comment wasn't aimed at mitro its ok to call other members beggers. I was someone that voiced concern over this does that mean I'm looking for free cigars? or how about Brent? it was a bad comment by shelby and to just think its ok couse it wasn't about mitro is wrong too. Look I agree this thread has started something great and thats the other review panels.


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## ArrowJ (Mar 19, 2008)

Shelby07 said:


> An example that comes to mind... One of the best selling cigars in the world is Macanudo... not exactly my cup of tea, but something that would be rated as a very good cigar by the "average Joe."
> 
> At some point advertising takes over. I have no confidence in the opinion of the proverbial average Joe.


I guess "average joe" was not a good term. What I mean is more "average well educated cigar smoking joe like most of the guys on Cigar Live" 

I support the new reviews, and will continue to do so. To be honest the only thing that just doesn't "feel" right is the idea of "Rated 92 by Cigar Live". I mean, some guy is standing in the B&M and he sees this cigar with a rating of 92 by Cigar Live and think "Well, that must be a good stick if everyone on that forum likes it". Little does he know that "Rated 92 by Cigar Live" really means "Rated 92 by Cigar Live's Four Person Expert Panel".

Either way it would be cool, and if I'm standing next to that guy at the B&M I'm going to say, "Yeah, I'm part of that board, and you can count on that score being dead on...and why not come and be part of the board?"


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## ArrowJ (Mar 19, 2008)

Lok17 said:


> Not a lot of credibility would be associated with their reviews if they were called the "Guys who smoke a lot of cigars but we can't call them anything professional sounding review panel, panel.."


Man, you stole my idea! I was going to send Stogie a PM suggesting that very name!


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## Shelby07 (May 1, 2007)

jitzy said:


> lok, so since the comment wasn't aimed at mitro its ok to call other members beggers. I was someone that voiced concern over this does that mean I'm looking for free cigars? or how about Brent? it was a bad comment by shelby and to just think its ok couse it wasn't about mitro is wrong too. Look I agree this thread has started something great and thats the other review panels.


Joe - You know I didn't mean it that way. You can't really believe that I am chastising every single person who raised a concern in this thread. In my opinion, the board needs more cigar talk/reviews and less pictures and back-patting. I think a lot of people have pulled away because of that very issue. That's my opinion, and I think that Daniel's idea is a good starting point that will evolve into something better. You raised some good points for discussion. I have no problem with them. I do, however, have a problem with some who feel that a 4 person review would not be "fair" to the rest of the board, especially in light of the performance (or lack thereof) by some on past review panels. I also have a problem with some who posted with a "what's in it for me" concern. That isn't you.

I feel that Daniel is doing what he has always done -- trying to move the board in another direction for the better. This board is getting into areas where other boards have not gone because Daniel and the mods never stop trying to improve it. That involves a lot of trial and error. But some of the posts here raised issues that seemed awfully selfish to me.


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## jitzy (Jan 7, 2007)

Shelby07 said:


> I feel that Daniel is doing what he has always done -- trying to move the board in another direction for the better. This board is getting into areas where other boards have not gone because Daniel and the mods never stop trying to improve it. That involves a lot of trial and error. But some of the posts here raised issues that seemed awfully selfish to me.


I couldn't agree more with this statement and thats why I'm behind the idea of this panel. Like I said there are things in this I don't agree with but I do feel this will be good for us as a whole down the road.


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## baboruger (Jun 18, 2007)

Shelby07 said:


> I do, however, have a problem with some who feel that a 4 person review would not be "fair" to the rest of the board, especially in light of the performance (or lack thereof) by some on past review panels. I also have a problem with some who posted with a "what's in it for me" concern. That isn't you.


Addressed in a PM...


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## mitro-cl (Jul 5, 2007)

Since no one ever addresses me (or my concerns) directly, I'll make this my last post on this.

Greg, I'm not going to let someone accuse ANYONE here of grubbing for free cigars without saying something about it. Thats horseshit. The "expert" panel was never my concern anyway. They can be called "The Cigar Gods of CL" and I wouldn't be offended. I just want one solid answer as to how is helps the CL community. 

For me the best reviews happen like this:

A person smokes a cigar and posts their review and then 10, 20, 50 people add there experiences with the same cigar over a period of time. 

THAT'S the way to get the best idea as to the quality of a cigar. All this structure and numeric scales BS is for marketing.


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## tx_tuff (Jun 16, 2007)

Well Mike if don't don't understand how it helps CL out you will soon when you are herfing and reviewing on cigars sent to y'alls review group by manufacturers because y'all are part of CL! If not for Daniel having manufacturers be apart of CL in many different ways including reviews that would not be such an easy thing to do!


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## Stogie (Feb 13, 2007)

Hey guys I will say this, wait until the reviews come out. *Believe me that we would never try do anything to exclude anyone*. If I was rolling in money I would love to be able to send everyone a cigar for free but the wife would serve me with papers. I am trying to figure out how everyone can review along with us because that would be fun.

At this point I have been thinking for a few days that members might even benefit in knowing what cigar will be reviewed before we review it.

They can then go get the cigar from wherever they want maybe a week or two ahead of time. Then they could pull it out and smoke it and if they decide to to a review it can be in a specific section of some sort that we can link to when the panel post the review. I am trying to see what the pros and cons of that would be as well. I would not think it would effect the panel since it is not a blind panel. I just got to really think about it.

A concern would be that some members may post a review for a different size, year, etc. but at least it is still a review.


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## jitzy (Jan 7, 2007)

jitzy said:


> I just had a thought about how everyone on cigar live could be part of the 4 person panel. Heres my idea since these guys will be using a bunch of things to get to the perfect score of 100 how about when you review the cigar you do some kind of a poll thread getting everyones opinion on here like a one thru ten rating, so this way the panel would only be able to give 90 of the points and ten points would come from the members.


does anyone else know what I'm talking about with this maybe one of the guys doing the reviews could say if its a good or bad idea. I know there have been alot of posts in this thread I just didn't know if this got lost?


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## cybervee-cl (Oct 24, 2007)

The board is growing rapidly, and as such Stogie has made many improvements that help the entire CL community. I'm sure he couldn't envision that the little cigar bb he started could evolve into what it is today. There is a frikkin' CL cigar coming out! Ads in industry-leading cigar mags! CL helped launch the NUB line! Too many other things to list, and I'm sure I don't know everything CL is involved in.

All that being said, I am one person who never really put much stock into a review by an 'expert' panel. I don't care who says that the 'bla bla bla' stick made by 'bla bla' is the best thing since sliced bread, or that it tastes like smoking hay, or if Tom Hanks is on the cover smoking one, or if Madonna named her kid after one. If I want to try it, I will. If I don't, I won't. Pure and simple. I do my own research and form my own opinion on cigars (and most everything).

To me, a 5er was invented just for this purpose. I buy many 5ers in order to form my own opinion. I never would have tried most of the cigars that are now in my rotation if it wasn't for the 5er. And if I find I don't like them for whatever reason they are passed on to another botl to try. 

And how many b'sotl out there have tried 1 of some cigar, and had a bad experience with it? Then you tried a second one, and liked it slightly. Then by the third you liked it enough to start buying them? 

Giving someone a single new cigar to try and ask them to form an opinion on that one cigar isn't fair to anyone involved. Not the person who supplies the stick, not the person who 'reviews' the stick, and certainly not the people reading the review.

Just my opinion .............


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## Lok17 (Jul 31, 2007)

mitro said:


> Since no one ever addresses me (or my concerns) directly, I'll make this my last post on this.
> 
> Greg, I'm not going to let someone accuse ANYONE here of grubbing for free cigars without saying something about it. Thats horseshit. The "expert" panel was never my concern anyway. They can be called "The Cigar Gods of CL" and I wouldn't be offended. I just want one solid answer as to how is helps the CL community.
> 
> ...


Mike, I hear what you are saying, I do. But I can see what Shelby is saying. Some posts could be taken the way he took them. I am not saying that is the intent, it's been a few days since I read most of this thread. All I can say is that I have been here long enough to know that Shelby is a standup guy, a dude I would be honored to call a friend in RL. I am simply saying I do not beleive it was his intent to slander the people of this board, he simply read a few posts and MAY or may not have taken it the wrong way. I can certainly see why some might have been taken in manner. I am in no way trying to bash you either here buddy I am lucky enough to know you in RL and look forward to getting to know you much better at our herfs and such. Who knows, being middle brained can be a curse, cause you can always see where both sides are coming from. I must say though, to me, on this one... I am in favor of the reveiw panel. I think it will spur more discussion about many, many different sticks. I see that as a very good thing!!! :biggrin:


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## Stogie (Feb 13, 2007)

cybervee said:


> The board is growing rapidly, and as such Stogie has made many improvements that help the entire CL community. I'm sure he couldn't envision that the little cigar bb he started could evolve into what it is today. There is a frikkin' CL cigar coming out! Ads in industry-leading cigar mags! CL helped launch the NUB line! Too many other things to list, and I'm sure I don't know everything CL is involved in.
> 
> All that being said, I am one person who never really put much stock into a review by an 'expert' panel. I don't care who says that the 'bla bla bla' stick made by 'bla bla' is the best thing since sliced bread, or that it tastes like smoking hay, or if Tom Hanks is on the cover smoking one, or if Madonna named her kid after one. If I want to try it, I will. If I don't, I won't. Pure and simple. I do my own research and form my own opinion on cigars (and most everything).
> 
> ...


All the members on the panels will be supplied with 5 cigars to review of each. The reason for this is the reason you wrote about above. You can get one bad stick but out of 5 you can get a really good idea of the true characteristics of the cigar and its true profile. Like I said it is a lot of work not just some free cigars.

Anyone who has ever sat down to write any sort of review knows that it is work. I could never pay these guys for the time they plan to spend on this so for that I am very gratefull to have them involved. At this point we have been discusing it for over 5 weeks now. I talk everyday to Russ to touch base on the system that will be used and to get updates about the other members of the panel. We are not just doing this on a whim.

We said long ago that we would create a great system before we even started. I know that Colin Ganley is involved in talking with Russ as well about the system and he has offered his help on the rating system.


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## Lok17 (Jul 31, 2007)

jitzy said:


> lok, so since the comment wasn't aimed at mitro its ok to call other members beggers. I was someone that voiced concern over this does that mean I'm looking for free cigars? or how about Brent? it was a bad comment by shelby and to just think its ok couse it wasn't about mitro is wrong too. Look I agree this thread has started something great and thats the other review panels.


I think Shelby addressed this for me. No hard feelings right buddy? We're just talking here right?


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## jitzy (Jan 7, 2007)

look its hard to express someones tone on here and I didn't mean to come across confrontational


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## LkyLindy (Feb 1, 2008)

jitzy said:


> does anyone else know what I'm talking about with this maybe one of the guys doing the reviews could say if its a good or bad idea. I know there have been alot of posts in this thread I just didn't know if this got lost?


Joe--I hear you loud and clear--This is a good idea and really expands the validity of a smokes rating


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## baboruger (Jun 18, 2007)

jitzy said:


> look its hard to express someones tone on here and I didn't mean to come across confrontational


Let's just all get into a ring and settle this one and for all...a smoking contest! LOL

I don't think there are any hard feelings or people being confrontational...everyone likes to stick up for their opinions and I guess that sometimes we all do it to the extreme, lets just remember one thing, this is a fun hobby and I think we should keep that first and foremost in our minds!!!

PS...any one could beat LOK in a smoking contest...Sorry Greg, I couldn't help myself LOL


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## Ceedee (Jun 2, 2006)

My gut feeling on the entirety of this Panel Review issue is that it will be a work in progress for a short time. Let's see how things go after the first few cigars or so to see how, what, why things go the way they go. I know I will reserve making further judgments until things get underway. I also know that Russ, Daniel and all the panel members will be working together to make the process work as well as we can get it as time progresses. If changes need to be made, I am sure that it will be a group process in doing so.

CD


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## cybervee-cl (Oct 24, 2007)

Stogie said:


> All the members on the panels will be supplied with 5 cigars to review of each. The reason for this is the reason you wrote about above. You can get one bad stick but out of 5 you can get a really good idea of the true characteristics of the cigar and its true profile. Like I said it is a lot of work not just some free cigars.


:roflmao:

Stogie, I should have known you wouldn't do something like this if you couldn't do it right! Like I said, a 5er was made for this type of thing.

But for me personally, reviews are of little interest. I have read a few in different magazines on the cigars I already smoke. And I always think "what the hell is this guy talking about - a slight hint of nutmeg with earthy overtones?". "A thoothy taste - What the hell does that mean?".

Maybe it's me, or maybe it's my palate, but I just don't get the connection between what 'reviewers' write and the taste I experience when smoking the same stick.

Hopefully the reviews will be in a plain, easy to understand structure. If they are I may just get the connection.


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