# Dump the Cuban Embargo



## Fresh50

Dump the Cuban Embargo
by Matthew Cooper 
December 2007 Issue 
Why it never worked and why we should end it.

TWILIGHT Fidel Castro (shown here in 1994) is coming to the end of his reign. Now, does the U.S. engage Cuba or ignore it? 
Photograph by: Gerard Rancinan

The American embargo of Cuba is one of those things that most of the political elite in Washington privately acknowledge as a failure. Publicly, they defend it because of fears that the Cuban American community, famously concentrated in presidentially pivotal Florida, will beat the tar out of them. In October, President Bush reiterated his commitment to it in a speech to Cuban dissidents, and it's no wonder that none of the leading presidential candidates has called for abolishing the embargo, initiated in 1960 as Fidel Castro's regime began confiscating U.S. assets. During the past 47 years, the embargo has evolved into a slew of restrictions on travel and trade (see slideshow), all designed to bring down Castro. And it's worked so well!
It's time to end the embargo-unilaterally and completely. The policy has been useless as a tool for cudgeling Castro, and it is hindering opportunities for American industries from travel to banking to agriculture, which is why there's no shortage of U.S. business groups lobbying to ease it. Far from hurting the deplorable Communist regime, the embargo has only given Castro an excuse to rail against Uncle Sam, both to his own people and to the world. Every year, Cuba asks the United Nations for a vote lifting the embargo. What happens? We usually end up with a couple of superpowers like Palau and the Marshall Islands standing with us. Last year, the vote was 183 to 4. The embargo makes us look like an arrogant bully.
Sure, in the early days of the cold war, we persuaded other countries to help us isolate Castro by severing trade ties with him. But in the ensuing years, they've all fallen away. That's why you can buy and smoke a fine Habana Cohiba pretty much anywhere but in the U.S.  Sanctions are hard enough to enforce when the world agrees on them, as was the case with Saddam Hussein's Iraq. With Cuba, it's an embargo of one, which is like a lone guy in Times Square on New Year's Eve grumpily refusing to put on a party hat.
While we grouse, the world sells. Italian telecoms, French hotels, and Korean automakers are more than happy to trade with an island 90 miles off our shores. Of course, Cuba is not a huge market: The island is the size of Pennsylvania, but its population is only 11 million and its G.D.P. a mere $46 billion. By comparison, Vietnam, the last Communist country with which we ended a dubious embargo, is 85 million strong, with a G.D.P. of $262 billion. Selling to Cuba wouldn't slash our trade deficit, but it wouldn't hurt us either.
Aside from hindering American business, the policy also keeps us from having any political influence over the country, says my old friend Julia Sweig, who is the foremost Cuba expert at the Council on Foreign Relations. She's been to Cuba nearly 30 times and has escorted the likes of the Blackstone Group's Pete Peterson to meet with Castro. Reading her work and talking with her shaped my thinking for this piece. "We're shooting ourselves in the foot," she says near her Dupont Circle .
Link to Original


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## muziq

The only interesting observation I noted in that article was on the 2nd page:

_It'll take a more dramatic example of the embargo's idiocy to change things-maybe if, say, Citgo, a subsidiary of Venezuela's state-owned oil company (ultimately controlled by Hugo Chávez, a Castro pal), which has already obtained rights to drill in Cuba's offshore reserves, discovers that those reserves are oil-rich. 
_​That would be a very interesting turn-of-events: the lobbying power of big oil versus the lobby power of the Cuban Expat community. 
Anadarko, Devon, and BP are going further and further out into the Gulf with their drilling leases; it's a matter of time before the technology enables them to do truly cost-effective deep-water drilling, pushing the envelope further east towards shallower fields that might be rich, lower-hanging fruit around Cuba.

The inside scoop on that round of deal-making with legislators would probably make for a great political thriller flick!


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## Lorglath

What would need to happen in order for this damned ban to be lifted? I mean petitions don't work, sit ins, and public protest, even if peaceful, end up with the police or military getting involved... what can we do?!


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## cbsmokin

It's funny that you post this. Did anyone else read about trying to make Cuba a state yesterday on MSN? If this ever happens I would love to visit Cuba before it takes place. It will be forever changed.


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## Marlboro Cigars-cl

Thanks for the article.
:tu


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## dayplanner

cbsmokin said:


> It's funny that you post this. Did anyone else read about trying to make Cuba a state yesterday on MSN? If this ever happens I would love to visit Cuba before it takes place. It will be forever changed.


I'm sure Cuba will be right behind Puerto Rico concerning statehood :r


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## DoctaJ

Lorglath said:


> What would need to happen in order for this damned ban to be lifted? I mean petitions don't work, sit ins, and public protest, even if peaceful, end up with the police or military getting involved... what can we do?!


Until Castro dies, I don't expect the embargo to be lifted. This fact has more to do with the stubbornness of the American government and, as the article mentioned, the Cuban-American vote. Castro's brother, who is next in line, has openly stated he wants to have more open borders. I also wouldn't be surprised if there was an internal peaceful military takeover of Cuba after Castro dies.

The thought that I have is how the cigar industry will look after Cuba's borders are open. The market would change dramatically I would think with the now legal influx of Cuban cigars to the American market.


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## bigr8131963

I say do it..:tu


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## icehog3

bigr8131963 said:


> I say do it..:tu


OK, I will have it dumped tomorrow.


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## vstrommark

DoctaJ said:


> Until Castro dies, I don't expect the embargo to be lifted. This fact has more to do with the stubbornness of the American government and, as the article mentioned, the Cuban-American vote. Castro's brother, who is next in line, has openly stated he wants to have more open borders. I also wouldn't be surprised if there was an internal peaceful military takeover of Cuba after Castro dies.
> 
> The thought that I have is how the cigar industry will look after Cuba's borders are open. The market would change dramatically I would think with the now legal influx of Cuban cigars to the American market.


:tpd: very well said. My opinion is that the policy isn't about Cuba and is more about appeasement and Fidel Castro. No comment on the maturity of that policy.


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## tecnorobo

icehog3 said:


> OK, I will have it dumped tomorrow.


Thanks for listening to the people, president tom


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## icehog3

tecnorobo said:


> Thanks for listening to the people, president tom


Ask not what your Jungle can do for you...ask what you can do for your Jungle.


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## Lanthor

icehog3 said:


> OK, I will have it dumped tomorrow.


Sweet, thanks Tom!!

I still think the industry will suffer initially, then rebound as the novelty wears off.


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## icehog3

Lanthor said:


> Sweet, thanks Tom!!
> 
> I still think the industry will suffer initially, then rebound as the novelty wears off.


The novelty of Cuba's next line, the Icehoganudos, will never wear off.


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## Lanthor

icehog3 said:


> The novelty of Cuba's next line, the Icehoganudos, will never wear off.


Damn, can I PM you for a source when these come out?

Mmmmm, Icehoganudos with a couple years on them!!:dr


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## icehog3

Lanthor said:


> Damn, can I PM you for a source when these come out?
> 
> Mmmmm, Icehoganudos with a couple years on them!!:dr


The 'hoganudos will be available at a Piggly Wiggly near you when the embargo ends.


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## adsantos13

icehog3 said:


> The novelty of Cuba's next line, the Icehoganudos, will never wear off.


:r :r: :r


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## tecnorobo

icehog3 said:


> The 'hoganudos will be available at a Piggly Wiggly near you when the embargo ends.


i hope they have that special lingering stoli taste, and the all too familiar odor of sweaty hockey jersey. Mmmmm. what a blend


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## burninator

icehog3 said:


> The 'hoganudos will be available at a Piggly Wiggly near you when the embargo ends.


I won't buy them unless each one has at least 6 bands. :tg


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## Navydoc

DoctaJ said:


> Until Castro dies, I don't expect the embargo to be lifted. This fact has more to do with the stubbornness of the American government and, as the article mentioned, the Cuban-American vote. Castro's brother, who is next in line, has openly stated he wants to have more open borders. *I also wouldn't be surprised if there was an internal peaceful military takeover of Cuba after Castro dies*.
> 
> The thought that I have is how the cigar industry will look after Cuba's borders are open. The market would change dramatically I would think with the now legal influx of Cuban cigars to the American market.


So two thoughts on your comments:

1/. As far as I recall it was the Cuban military that put Castro in power in the first place. It's been the Cuban military that has kept Castro in power and will continue to be in power when Fiedel dies.

2/. Don't look for a large influx of Cuban cigars to hit the US market when the embargo is lifted. I believe you will see a controlled influx via several well placed LcDH's. This would allow Cuba to ramp up production in a controlled manner as well as allowing time for the Non-Cuban brands to adjust. There's too much money at stake for the NC market to just "cave in"

As usuall my :2


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## Lanthor

Navydoc said:


> 2/. I believe you will see a controlled influx via several well placed LcDH's. This would allow Cuba to ramp up production in a controlled manner as well as allowing time for the Non-Cuban brands to adjust. There's too much money at stake for the NC market to just "cave in"


I hope/think you are right. I have to remind myself that the ROW has access to CC's, doubtful adding the US market, while large, will overwhelm them that much (hell I think some people around here get them regardless).

And I don't think I have a Piggly Wiggly nearby.


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## muziq

Lanthor said:


> (hell I think some people around here get them regardless).


Hey now, don't go callin' some of us lawbreakers....

 :r


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## Lanthor

muziq said:


> Hey now, don't go callin' some of us lawbreakers....


Purely speculation on my part fine Sir...:tu


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## floydpink

I'll be optimistic about this as soon as I see one indication that our govmernment is willing to admit one of their policies has failed.

Don't hold your breath.


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## mosesbotbol

Navydoc said:


> .
> Don't look for a large influx of Cuban cigars to hit the US market when the embargo is lifted. I believe you will see a controlled influx via several well placed LcDH's. This would allow Cuba to ramp up production in a controlled manner as well as allowing time for the Non-Cuban brands to adjust. There's too much money at stake for the NC market to just "cave in"


I agree that I doubt we'll see a huge influx of cigar directly from Cuba, and perhaps the LCDH franchises may have already been bought for key US cities. The only cigars will see coming to the US in the short term would be from parallel markets, not directly from Cuba.

Cuba may be forced to create US friendly brands that do not violate trademarks. This is all so far away and ethereal, that no one should lose sleep over this.


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## Smoked

I kind of like things the way that they are now. I can get Cuban cigars very easily with very little risk. The prices aren't bad and the quality of the cigars is good. With all of the speculation about what will happen to the prices and quality if the Embargo is lifted, I say why mess with a good thing.


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## GOAT LOCKER

Smoked said:


> I kind of like things the way that they are now. I can get Cuban cigars very easily with very little risk. The prices aren't bad and the quality of the cigars is good. With all of the speculation about what will happen to the prices and quality if the Embargo is lifted, I say why mess with a good thing.


I would gladly give up my access to cheap cigars to give the Cuban people freedom from an oppressive government. I'm sure it was not your intention to put your access to cheap, high quality cigars above the interests of the people of Cuba, but it sounds that way. In the big picture, cigars are pretty small compared to the issues they face.

Fortunately for us, the embargo has been very effective, in as much as Cuba is unable to build a strong military and thus far has failed to export their revolution. Not that they have not tried.

Unfortunately for the Cuban people, they are paying a high price for the security of the Caribbean.

It's not going to be a matter of "dumping" the embargo. We will eventually negotiate an end that will require certain actions by Cuba. Hopefully we will ensure the Cuban people benefit, and not just the rich and powerful.


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## Smoked

GOAT LOCKER said:


> I would gladly give up my access to cheap cigars to give the Cuban people freedom from an oppressive government. I'm sure it was not your intention to put your access to cheap, high quality cigars above the interests of the people of Cuba, but it sounds that way. In the big picture, cigars are pretty small compared to the issues they face.
> 
> Fortunately for us, the embargo has been very effective, in as much as Cuba is unable to build a strong military and thus far has failed to export their revolution. Not that they have not tried.
> 
> Unfortunately for the Cuban people, they are paying a high price for the security of the Caribbean.
> 
> It's not going to be a matter of "dumping" the embargo. We will eventually negotiate an end that will require certain actions by Cuba. Hopefully we will ensure the Cuban people benefit, and not just the rich and powerful.


I actually don't know much about the people of Cuba so no it was not my intention.


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## icehog3

tecnorobo said:


> i hope they have that special lingering stoli taste, and the all too familiar odor of sweaty hockey jersey. Mmmmm. what a blend


Like Heaven on Earth. 



burninator said:


> I won't buy them unless each one has at least 6 bands. :tg


5 for fightin'? 



Lanthor said:


> I hope/think you are right. I have to remind myself that the ROW has access to CC's, doubtful adding the US market, while large, will overwhelm them that much (hell I think some people around here get them regardless).
> 
> And I don't think I have a Piggly Wiggly nearby.


Walgreens? :r


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## ScottishSmoker

I still think that the embargo will be in place regardless of Castro's death or not...the embargo will not be lifted until Communism disappears in Cuba. A military coup would have to occur, jusst like it did putting Castro in power, or a total bankruptcy of the Cuban economic system happens. That is not something likely too happen any day soon. As far as the cigars flooding our NC market, I do not see that happening either. At first the novelty will be there but like any other fad, it too will pass by the wayside. If and should the CC's be available in the U.S., I hope a few LcDHs pop-up just to help in the regulation of quality standards of this product. Ramping up to meet the necessary quantity to satisfy the largest tobacco consuming market in the world is not something that will be able to be achieved for a long while. Cuba does need our financial help in the long run, but as of right now, Castro and his people are holding on to their Commie (if they were allowed to vote, I bet they would vote Democrat) ways and that will make it impossible to lift the embargo.


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## Infin1ty

cbsmokin said:


> It's funny that you post this. Did anyone else read about trying to make Cuba a state yesterday on MSN? If this ever happens I would love to visit Cuba before it takes place. It will be forever changed.


Are you sure your not thinking of Porta Rico?


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## floydpink

Nah, that's next to Minna Soda.


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## Infin1ty

floydpink said:


> Nah, that's next to Minna Soda.


Your not trying to make fun of me are you? Becuase thats how it's spelt. :tu


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## muziq

Infin1ty said:


> You're not trying to make fun of me are you? Because that's how it's spelled. :tu


I thought it was Puerto Rico...:ss


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## floydpink

Infin1ty said:


> Your not trying to make fun of me are you? Becuase thats how it's spelt. :tu


me? Not at all. pm me your addy and I'll send you the Atlas I am not using any more.

How does the making Cuba a state work? Does it pass through Congress, then go to the House and if they get a majority vote, then they let Castro know his term limit is up and in the 2008 elections there will be a ballot? I can see it now, Hillary changes her name to Hillary Castro in a major power move.


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## Infin1ty

floydpink said:


> me? Not at all. pm me your addy and I'll send you the Atlas I am not using any more.
> 
> How does the making Cuba a state work? Does it pass through Congress, then go to the House and if they get a majority vote, then they let Castro know his term limit is up and in the 2008 elections there will be a ballot? I can see it now, Hillary changes her name to Hillary Castro in a major power move.


lol, I really think that they made a mistake. I've heard nothing about making Cuba a state, just Puerto Rico (sorry about messin up the spelling, Google is not as reliable as it used to be :r) They basically have all the rights that we do, except they cant vote and they dont pay taxes.


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## icehog3

I have ended dumped the embargo. You should be able to get Cohibas at Walgreens by Tuesday.


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## Lanthor

icehog3 said:


> I have ended dumped the embargo. You should be able to get Cohibas at Walgreens by Tuesday.


:bl

Very gracious of you!! I better save these embargo era glass top boxes I have, worth big dollars some day.


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## GOAT LOCKER

icehog3 said:


> I have ended dumped the embargo. You should be able to get Cohibas at Walgreens by Tuesday.


Thanks bro, I was gonna take a trip to see my source in TJ next week (you know, the guy with the striped donkey), but now I'll wait.


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## Simplified

If the Embargo is ever lifted the government in the US will be more interested in seizures from foreign purchases for the tax. Pricing would not be as crazy as Canada but the price of ISOM's would go up bunches and bunches as demand would increase and taxes would be added.:2


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## Lumpold

Ya'll can keep your embargo :tu


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## andrewsutherland2002

Fidel is stepping down


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## SR Mike

I see two problems myself. One on the issue of turning Cuba into a US state. Doing so will take away Cuba's pride, let's look at history, when a country loses it's own government, tensions arise and grudges are held. Not like they do not have one against the US as it is. When the time comes for the Embargo to be lifted, their pride will continue to soar because they are their own nation. Also, since the establishment of the USA, it has never marched into a country and claimed it as it's own, just returned it to it's people to make up a new government.

The other is over the Embargo. Let's be realistic about Raul Castro, Fidel's younger brother and successor. Raul has been Fidel's right hand man since 1959. They have been working together and hold similar political values, except Raul embraces Communism far more than Fidel. Not only is he incapable of possessing the ability to conduct negotiations between the Country's own politicians, he has an even harder time negotiating with other nations.

Raul is praised for pulling Cuba out of it's crisis over lost crops, both edible and smokable. Okay he does not seem that bad, well when it comes to private business', the Castro's believe that such ownerships will cause a downfall of the country financially. They do not trust a government that allows it's citizens to rule themselves, believing that doing so will cause a revolution. They are pure blooded Communists.

Yet there remains a problem with Raul, in the Helms-Burton Act of 1996 it is strict about when the Embargo will be lifted, it is necessary that their needs to be *"a transition government in Cuba is in power,"* on top of that government *"does not include Fidel Castro or Raul Castro."*

So as nice as it would be to give everything to that little ISOM, the USA will not do so. Now if the Embargo was never emplace, I am sure Fidel and his government would have been removed by now. Since the USA has placed the Embargo, it is not going to break it. Remember that just because that island can be changed by force, if the US does so, it will add another chalk mark against them by other nations. The US is a nation of laws (we can debate that all day). If the US breaks the Helms-Burton Act of 1996 and starts working with Raul, the US will be seen as a country that now supports Communism, throwing away all that has been done for the good of the world since the Declaration of Independence was signed by it's forefathers.

Do my concerns make any sense?

Something for me to think about...


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## SilverFox

Lets start off with the fact that the Embargo being lifted would be a very good thing for the Cuban people. Also IMHO it isn't going to happen as long as it is a communist state under Castro (Fidel, Raul, or his dog Bobo) or similar dictator.

As far as the Tobacco industry if you lift the Cuban imbargo this isn't just an impact of imports from Cuba but there are hundreds if not thousands of international retailers that would be able to sell to the US market. I see a couple of problems with this..........recognizing that the US market is comprised of over 300million sticks annually and growing that is a huge market for competition in.

As far as I can see most of the BOTL's would at least get a sampler of sticks to put in there humi if not more, increase demand in Cubans means a couple of things, it means pressures on domestic production to increase to meet demand, and I can only see bad things in that. Poorer quality tobacco, poorer quality rolling, or a huge spike in prices. This also means that all the NC's out there will see a drop in their demand leading to problems in their markets, which meens either lower production or lowered prices.

I don't foresee the complete lifting of the embargo being beneficial to the Tobacco industry or the consumer in the long term, it needs to be a scaled out approach that retailers, producers, and consumers can acclimate to reasonably.

My:2 for what its worth


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## gnukfu

If massive oil fields are found under or near Cuba the embargo will disappear.


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## Lumpold

gnukfu said:


> If massive oil fields are found under or near Cuba the embargo will disappear.


Did you miss that news story?


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## Finfan

Lumpold said:


> Did you miss that news story?


wow, thats really interesting. I didnt know about this--oil off of Cuba. I'm surprised that we havent named Cuba among the axes of evil and gone in to secure said oil.


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## burninator

Finfan said:


> wow, thats really interesting. I didnt know about this--oil off of Cuba. I'm surprised that we havent named Cuba among the axes of evil and gone in to secure said oil.


Seems US foreign policy is somewhat more nuanced than we may think.


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## gnukfu

Lumpold said:


> Did you miss that news story?


Yeah I did! Holy Cow.


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## Ron1YY

icehog3 said:


> OK, I will have it dumped tomorrow.


No tom, he said dump the cuban EMBARGo, Not the cuban Sandwich!!!! :r

Ron


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## gnukfu

Mmmm Cuban Sandwich. Psssst I know where you can get some of those (PM me for details).


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## Ron1YY

gnukfu said:


> Mmmm Cuban Sandwich. Psssst I know where you can get some of those (PM me for details).


Sending PM!!! I usually go to my friend whos uncle has a brother that works in a Cuban Sandwich factory!!!! MMmmmmm Mmmmm!!!

Ron


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## gnukfu

I've had mine from Luis Tiant's stand at Fenway Park (no he doesn't make the sandwiches; he just owns the stand). I have no idea how close they are to the real thing but they are quite tasty! And where else can you get an autograph and picture with Luis?


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## SR Mike

*Raul Castro named Cuba's new president*

11 hours ago

HAVANA (AFP) - Cuba marked a historic milestone in its revolution Sunday as Raul Castro took over as president from his brother Fidel, defying the United States with pledges not to abandon the communist path.

"Fidel is irreplaceable; the people will continue his work when he is no longer with us physically, though his ideas always will be here," Raul Castro, 76, told lawmakers in his acceptance speech.

"I accept the responsibility I have been given with the conviction I have repeated often: there is only one Commander in Chief of the Cuban Revolution: Fidel is Fidel and we all know it well."

US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice earlier urged Cuba to move toward "peaceful, democratic change."

"We urge the Cuban government to begin a process of peaceful, democratic change by releasing all political prisoners, respecting human rights, and creating a clear pathway towards free and fair elections," Rice said in a statement in Washington.

But Raul Castro vowed to be on guard against its powerful northern neighbor the United States, saying "we have taken note of the offensive and openly meddling declarations by the Empire (as Cuba refers to Washington) and some of its closest allies."

Ailing Fidel Castro, 81, who announced on Tuesday he was stepping aside after ruling for almost 50 years, was not present as the National Assembly held its landmark session to select a new leader.

But newly reelected speaker Ricardo Alarcon announced Sunday to the assembly that Raul -- the only candidate to be put forward -- had been named the new president.

Raul Castro then asked lawmakers for permission to consult with his legendary bearded older brother, on "matters of great importance," and lawmakers gave him a swift green light.

Also in defiance of US-led calls for democratic change, Fidel Castro this week ruled out any betrayal of the Cuban revolution ahead of Sunday's historic vote.

In his Tuesday announcement, the frail communist icon quashed speculation that he would retake the reins of power, which he "temporarily" ceded to defense chief Raul Castro on July 31, 2006, shortly after undergoing surgery.

The 614-member assembly on Sunday was also choosing the country's Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces, first vice president, five other vice presidents, a party secretary and the 23 members of the Council of State.

Jose Ramon Machado, another "old guard" Cuban leader, was selected for Cuba's number-two spot, lawmakers said.

Machado, 77, a former health minister, is a founder of the Communist Party and has been chief of party organization since 1990.

Meanwhile, Carlos Lage, 56, a rising younger-generation leader seen as having a longshot chance at the presidency, retains his post as one of several vice presidents.

With Machado behind him "Raul Castro is signaling that the old guard is still on top," Dan Erikson, an analyst with the Inter-American Dialogue, said in Washington.

"Machado Ventura is a longtime insider and party crony (so) Cuba still is not in the process of a major generational transition," Erikson added..
After years in Fidel's charismatic shadow as Cuba's number two and defense minister, Raul Castro faces massive challenges, including dismantling a monolithic leadership; preparing the transition to a newer generation in power; reforming the economy; and resolving domestic problems.

With half of Cuba's farmland idle, monthly salaries averaging 15 US dollars, national transportation near collapse; and housing and food in short supply the outlook is not good.

Most analysts predict Cuba's upcoming changes will be largely economic.
In the 19 months since he took over as temporary leader, Raul Castro has made some timid adjustments in the economy but has promised bigger changes.

Raul Castro mentioned in his acceptance speech that he would begin eliminating some simple economic restrictions in coming weeks, but he did not offer details.

He has made it clear however that everything will take place "within socialism," and that solutions to the country's problems will come "little by little."

Link


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## pistolero

Finfan said:


> wow, thats really interesting. I didnt know about this--oil off of Cuba. I'm surprised that we havent named Cuba among the axes of evil and gone in to secure said oil.


 Well maybe if Latin American commie terrorists start flying planes into American buildings and killing thousands of us at a time WE WOULD?
Maybe, just maybe there is something else to it?

I get so tired of hearing that "blood for oil" crap, "were gonna send our boys over there to die so we can have cheap gasoline" yet now that gas is over $3/gallon THAT is Bush's fault too, because "he's in with all the oil men makin millions"
SOOOO, which is it?


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## smokering10

it might be possible to talk to Cuba since Castro is gone. his brother brought him into communism but hes willing to talk to us. i say we flood the country with American goods because no one can resist the best in the world hell even iran wants our ice cream, baskin robbins. i understand the embargo but by now we should be able to settle this like men, or women if your p.c.


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## the nub

smokering10 said:


> even iran wants our ice cream, baskin robbins.


If you can get ice cream to the Cuban people for $0.10 a scoop I'm sure they'd love it. That's how much they pay, although they usually only have 3 flavors.


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## shvictor

I dont see how we justify trade with China, but not with Cuba. China has an absolute horrible human rights record....


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## ArnaudDMR

shvictor said:


> I dont see how we justify trade with China, but not with Cuba. China has an absolute horrible human rights record....


This is exactly what I was telling co-workers the other day. Not sure how we can have such HUGE trade agreements with countries like China and still keep the old-man embargo with Cuba.

Things change and people change but jeez, the Cuba business has got to end. Makes no sense anymore! :ss


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## shvictor

Big business is keeping China safe from any embargos. They need their cheap labor.


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## lenguamor

Let's not be hasty, now; this embargo has only been in effect for 45 years...let's make sure we give it enough time to work.


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## Blueface

lenguamor said:


> Let's not be hasty, now; this embargo has only been in effect for 45 years...let's make sure we give it enough time to work.


:r:r:r


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## Wraith

One thing i have noted is the feeling i get when i smoke any cuban cigar, even fake ones. It is the feeling of having to work for something. Above the feeling you get from smoking a cigar that your hard earned money went towards. Even further that you had to circumvent some laws and obtain them. The same way that the taste of the liquor i had stolen from my parents as a child will never be rivaled.

Also, think of all the B&Ms that would have to blow out their walls when a flood of new merchandise comes to their doors.


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## Snake Hips

I don't get why they don't let you take Cuban cigars into the U.S. I get not being able to purchase or sell them, but bringing them in at all? If I were to go to Canada and buy a box of Cubans and bring them back, I would have already irreversibly aided the enemy by purchasing them. How does it damage the embargo effort to bring them into the States after I've purchased them?

BTW, I _am_ going to Canada in July, and will _enjoy immensely_ a Cuban and a glass of Scotch in Vancouver. Suck it Washington!


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## pnoon

Snake Hips said:


> I don't get why they don't let you take Cuban cigars into the U.S. I get not being able to purchase or sell them, but bringing them in at all? If I were to go to Canada and buy a box of Cubans and bring them back, I would have already irreversibly aided the enemy by purchasing them. How does it damage the embargo effort to bring them into the States after I've purchased them?
> 
> BTW, I _am_ going to Canada in July, and will _enjoy immensely_ a Cuban and a glass of Scotch in Vancouver. Suck it Washington!


fwiw - I'm not a fan of the embargo but I will attempt to answer your question.

You have already broken the law by purchasing them. Even if you buy in Canada, technically you have violated the embargo. It is extremely unlikely you will be prosecuted for buying a Cuban cigar in Canada and smoking it there. Many choose not to buy to bring home because of the risk/penalty.

I guess I don't understand your discrimination between buying and bringing in.


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## shilala

pnoon said:


> fwiw - I'm not a fan of the embargo but I will attempt to answer your question.
> 
> You have already broken the law by purchasing them. Even if you buy in Canada, technically you have violated the embargo. It is extremely unlikely you will be prosecuted for buying a Cuban cigar in Canada and smoking it there. Many choose not to buy to bring home because of the risk/penalty.
> 
> I guess I don't understand your discrimination between buying and bringing in.


When I read the embargo legislation I got the impression that as a US Citizen, it was unlawful for me to smoke a cc anywhere in the world.
Is that right?
I know that I can't do business with Cuba even if I'm in another country, cause that's illegal too.
I can't visit Cuba even if I enter Cuba via another country.
I was impressed by how all encompassing and strangling the embargo is.


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## NCRadioMan

shilala said:


> When I read the embargo legislation I got the impression that as a US Citizen, it was unlawful for me to smoke a cc anywhere in the world.
> Is that right?


Yep. It is technically illegal for a US citizen to purchase Cuban goods, even outside the country where they are legal. Crazy, ain't it.


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## rawlic

ArnaudDMR said:


> This is exactly what I was telling co-workers the other day. Not sure how we can have such HUGE trade agreements with countries like China and still keep the old-man embargo with Cuba.
> 
> Things change and people change but jeez, the Cuba business has got to end. Makes no sense anymore! :ss


I agree, but I think it's important to remember one important point. A major reason for the embargo is the fact that Castro's government nationalized a lot of American companies' operations without any restitution. It wasn't that long ago and companies have long memories for that sort of thing. And they have the ability to lobby our government.

So, I don't think it's as simple as Cuba's gov't easing things a little bit for the embargo to be lifted. The wronged companies are going to try and get what was theirs, or a piece of the 'new' Cuba.

-Chuck


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## NCRadioMan

rawlic said:


> So, I don't think it's as simple as Cuba's gov't easing things a little bit for the embargo to be lifted. The wronged companies are going to try and get what was theirs, or a piece of the 'new' Cuba.
> 
> -Chuck


You got that right. Lawsuits will be plentifull and as I understand it, they are in place and ready to be filed as soon as the commies fall.

Speaking of why they are still in power, I have a crack-pot theory:

The Cuban Govn't had JFK killed. The US Govn't didn't want the public to know that a very small commie island could do such a thing to the mighty US. So, they made a deal with Castro's that they could stay in power until thier death as long as they never revealed that they were behind the assasination. Why else havn't we liberated Cuba? We have "liberated" dozens of other countires but have never tried in Cuba since the death of JFK.

See, I told you it was a crack-pot theory. There are alot of those around today, though.


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## M1903A1

NCRadioMan said:


> You got that right. Lawsuits will be plentifull and as I understand it, they are in place and ready to be filed as soon as the commies fall.
> 
> Speaking of why they are still in power, I have a crack-pot theory:
> 
> The Cuban Govn't had JFK killed. The US Govn't didn't want the public to know that a very small commie island could do such a thing to the mighty US. So, they made a deal with Castro's that they could stay in power until thier death as long as they never revealed that they were behind the assasination. Why else havn't we liberated Cuba? We have "liberated" dozens of other countires but have never tried in Cuba since the death of JFK.
> 
> See, I told you it was a crack-pot theory. There are alot of those around today, though.


I think it actually had a lot more to do with the Missile Crisis...it's been said that there was a tacit deal of "take those missiles out (and don't get any more bright ideas), and we promise not to mess with the Cuban government any more".


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## fsjonsey

I'm not trying to flame, but I don't believe the Cuban regime needs to make any more money off of their impoverished citizens. Where does all the money they make trading with the rest of the world end up? It definitely doesn't end up with the average Cuban, at least not very much of it.


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## Fenwick

I think it should remain in place so long as the Cuban government keeps on doing the things that led it to be enacted in the first place.

They have to clean up their act with respect to human rights violations and playing nice with other countries.

Until then, they're just going to have to suffer the consequences of their bad behavior.


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## Blueface

fsjonsey said:


> Where does all the money they make trading with the rest of the world end up? It definitely doesn't end up with the average Cuban, at least not very much of it.


Goes to the Universal Health Care.:r

Saw a recent "expose" on Cuban healthcare.
Hidden cameras in hospitals.
Unbelievable.
No hygiene.
Dead bodies in beds next to live ones.
No medicatons.
No electricity.
Only the elitist belonging to the government and tourist get treated.

Oh, yeah, that's right. It is FREE. And that folks, is what so many want us to be compared to.
I love it.
Let's explain an accident to an eye witness.
Have always loved that saying.


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## Snake Hips

pnoon said:


> fwiw - I'm not a fan of the embargo but I will attempt to answer your question.
> 
> You have already broken the law by purchasing them. Even if you buy in Canada, technically you have violated the embargo. It is extremely unlikely you will be prosecuted for buying a Cuban cigar in Canada and smoking it there. Many choose not to buy to bring home because of the risk/penalty.
> 
> I guess I don't understand your discrimination between buying and bringing in.


Thanks for the reply.

I get how I'm damaging the embargo effort by buying them at all, even in another country, but my discrimination between buying and bringing in is the futility of not allowing me to take them into the country after I have already done business with Cuba. I bought the cigars, the damage is done - how is the act of taking the product into the country going to aid Cuba any further than the act of buying the cigars? It won't. I'm just saying that it's kind of dumb to not allow me to take them back into the country after I violated the embargo to the best of my ability by buying them. The money transaction with a Cuban company damages the embargo effort - taking the product into the country doesn't.


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## icehog3

Snake Hips said:


> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> I get how I'm damaging the embargo effort by buying them at all, even in another country, but my discrimination between buying and bringing in is the futility of not allowing me to take them into the country after I have already done business with Cuba. I bought the cigars, the damage is done - how is the act of taking the product into the country going to aid Cuba any further than the act of buying the cigars? It won't. I'm just saying that it's kind of dumb to not allow me to take them back into the country after I violated the embargo to the best of my ability by buying them. The money transaction with a Cuban company damages the embargo effort - taking the product into the country doesn't.


So, for instance, if you buy heroin in Canada, bringing it into the US shouldn't be a problem since you have already hampered the efforts against Colombian Drug Lords in Canada?

It isn't just a matter of the economic damage done to the Embargo effort done by buying the cigars....it is illegal to possess Cuban cigars in the U.S.... So, you have damaged the Embargo effort out of the country, but you have also broken the law when you bring them in to the U.S. .


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## macjoe53

NCRadioMan said:


> Speaking of why they are still in power, I have a crack-pot theory:
> 
> The Cuban Govn't had JFK killed. The US Govn't didn't want the public to know that a very small commie island could do such a thing to the mighty US. So, they made a deal with Castro's that they could stay in power until thier death as long as they never revealed that they were behind the assasination. Why else havn't we liberated Cuba? We have "liberated" dozens of other countires but have never tried in Cuba since the death of JFK.
> 
> See, I told you it was a crack-pot theory. There are alot of those around today, though.


My crack-pot theory has always been that the embargo is still in place because Saint John Kennedy put it into place and the democrats feel in office feel that it would be a sacrilege to remove the embargo and dishonor the memory of the President who was obviously the best president we've ever had (note sarcasm here).


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## chenvt

Fenwick said:


> I think it should remain in place so long as the Cuban government keeps on doing the things that led it to be enacted in the first place.
> 
> *They have to clean up their act with respect to human rights violations and playing nice with other countries*.
> 
> Until then, they're just going to have to suffer the consequences of their bad behavior.


I have to disagree with this. If the argument is that human rights violations and their attitude towards other countries should be a reason for an embargo, what about China, Saudi Arabia, Russia, and other countries that consistently have violated human rights?

Such countries can arguably be considered worse, but due to the fact that their economy and resources have strategic benefits for the United States, we might give the occasional press statement of "we're concerned and are talking to their diplomats". But sanctions? Come on, not in a million years.

I would attribute much of this to the cuban american population in florida, which is a key state in elections. Like it or not, it is an excellent example of a minority population in the United States being able to have leverage regardless of a majority opinion.

It could also be argued that once increased trade and commerce with the then-Soviet Union increased, we saw an acceleration towards democracy. You can even see that in bits and pieces as China has increased its integration into the global economy.


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## Snake Hips

icehog3 said:


> So, for instance, if you buy heroin in Canada, bringing it into the US shouldn't be a problem since you have already hampered the efforts against Colombian Drug Lords in Canada?
> 
> It isn't just a matter of the economic damage done to the Embargo effort done by buying the cigars....it is illegal to possess Cuban cigars in the U.S.... So, you have damaged the Embargo effort out of the country, but you have also broken the law when you bring them in to the U.S. .


That's what I mean. That it's illegal to _possess_ them is what I'm bothered with. Simply _having_ them doesn't benefit Cuba or damage the embargo effort like buying them does. I'm just trying to say that it's a little dumb to have it be illegal to possess them or bring them into the country when it's the act of buying them that actually does the "damage."


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## icehog3

Snake Hips said:


> That's what I mean. That it's illegal to _possess_ them is what I'm bothered with. Simply _having_ them doesn't benefit Cuba or damage the embargo effort like buying them does. I'm just trying to say that it's a little dumb to have it be illegal to possess them or bring them into the country when it's the act of buying them that actually does the "damage."


Because in reality the embargo is much more a political issue than it is an economic one. :2


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## Fenwick

chenvt said:


> I have to disagree with this. If the argument is that human rights violations and their attitude towards other countries should be a reason for an embargo, what about China, Saudi Arabia, Russia, and other countries that consistently have violated human rights?
> 
> Such countries can arguably be considered worse, but due to the fact that their economy and resources have strategic benefits for the United States, we might give the occasional press statement of "we're concerned and are talking to their diplomats". But sanctions? Come on, not in a million years.
> 
> I would attribute much of this to the cuban american population in florida, which is a key state in elections. Like it or not, it is an excellent example of a minority population in the United States being able to have leverage regardless of a majority opinion.
> 
> It could also be argued that once increased trade and commerce with the then-Soviet Union increased, we saw an acceleration towards democracy. You can even see that in bits and pieces as China has increased its integration into the global economy.


Yes, point well taken. I probably should have done more research and presented a stronger argument to support my statement but I did not and you have an excellent rebuttal. And I agree with you that the Cubans who fled to Florida do indeed have a significant influence with our keeping the Trading With the Enemy Act in effect.

However I'm not sure I agree with you that there is a "majority opinion" that wants the Act lifted other than those interested in smoking Cuban cigars. In my opinion, a huge majority of the United States population is indifferent on the topic which probably explains why it doesn't attract much attention or time in Washington, DC.


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## chenvt

Fenwick said:


> Yes, point well taken. I probably should have done more research and presented a stronger argument to support my statement but I did not and you have an excellent rebuttal. And I agree with you that the Cubans who fled to Florida do indeed have a significant influence with our keeping the Trading With the Enemy Act in effect.
> 
> However I'm not sure I agree with you that there is a "majority opinion" that wants the Act lifted other than those interested in smoking Cuban cigars. *In my opinion, a huge majority of the United States population is indifferent on the topic which probably explains why it doesn't attract much attention or time in Washington, DC*.


Agreed. It's really a non-issue when you think about the grand scheme of things in the US. In fact, it's funny if you read the facts on how much the US government devotes to this embargo:
-Between 2000 and 2006, 61% of the Treasury Department's Office of Foreign Assets Control's casework was on Cuba Embargo. Mind you, this is greater than countries known as narcotic hubs.
-DHS secondary inspections are 20% higher on charter passengers arriving from Cuba at Miami Airport (These are people who have persmission to go to Cuba)

Seriously, we don't have better things for our border police to be working on? I guess I'm just frustrated at the hypocricy where we have a nominal national security threat from Cuba versus other countries.


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## orca99usa

> Seriously, we don't have better things for our border police to be working on?


I had much rather spend the money and effort on curtailing terrorism.

At least publicly, the embargo exists to force Castro out of power. In that, it has been a miserable failure. Only age and ill health forced him out. I also advance that it gave him an excuse to stay in power as long as possible, and through any means at his disposal. It probably also played a role in him turning power over to his brother, with a determination to change as little as possible. We have done, and are doing, business with regimes with far worse records in human rights and providing for the country's citizens.

I am a child of the Cuban missile crisis, and my father was in the military in Florida when it happened. I have vivid memories of the times. The Russians, who were supposedly the villains, normalized relations with us long ago. If I could walk up and put my hands on a Russian Sukhoi SU-27 at an American air show in 1989, I see no reason I cannot put my hands on a Cuban Cohiba in 2008 (well, actually I can, but that's a different story).

If we want to effect real change in Cuba, it seems to me that the best way to do it is to expose Cubans to America in doses they never dreamed of - through travel, tourism, exchange of goods and cultural exchanges. Let them see what they have been missing, and then let them push for change from within.

Or, we can remain the lone bully on the block and stand alone while the rest of the world refuses to duplicate our failure.


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## Rolando

I write a letter to the president about once a year in support of ending the embargo. I find it to be the worst kind of hypocrisy for us to target only military points of interest when we attack a country and we target civillian when we impose long-term embargos.

It didn't work. It is time to end it and try to bring them back into the fold through peaceful means.


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## jamesb3

My relpy is simple-end it, it is time.


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## krisko

macjoe53 said:


> My crack-pot theory has always been that the embargo is still in place because Saint John Kennedy put it into place and the democrats feel in office feel that it would be a sacrilege to remove the embargo and dishonor the memory of the President who was obviously the best president we've ever had (note sarcasm here).


It may or may not be 'crack-pot' but it's definitely a theory I've never heard before. Well done for putting an interesting spin on it.



orca99usa said:


> If we want to effect real change in Cuba, it seems to me that the best way to do it is to expose Cubans to America in doses they never dreamed of - through travel, tourism, exchange of goods and cultural exchanges. Let them see what they have been missing, and then let them push for change from within.


Quoted for relevance. Or I guess I could've just said 'What he said!'.


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## krisko

Snake Hips said:


> I get how I'm damaging the embargo effort by buying them at all, even in another country, but my discrimination between buying and bringing in is the futility of not allowing me to take them into the country after I have already done business with Cuba. I bought the cigars, the damage is done - how is the act of taking the product into the country going to aid Cuba any further than the act of buying the cigars? It won't. I'm just saying that it's kind of dumb to not allow me to take them back into the country after I violated the embargo to the best of my ability by buying them. The money transaction with a Cuban company damages the embargo effort - taking the product into the country doesn't.


Morally there is no difference between purchasing CCs and being in posession of them. In other words, if you are allowed to bring them into the country, there is nothing stopping you from purchasing them. I see the point you are making, but all you're really trying to do is justify breaking your country's embargo of Cuba.

Incidentally I'm not judging you. I have a long history of ignoring the rules that don't jive with my lifestyle, the embargo included. You might say I have a certain 'moral flexibility'.:tu


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## ZedR2

And how many Habanos does 'Arnold' have in his Humi (?) thousands if not more , I have seen him up here buying them , I bet he is not the only US politician stocked with Habanos but the rules don't apply to them ! :ss


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## icehog3

ZedR2 said:


> And how many Habanos does 'Arnold' have in his Humi (?) thousands if not more , I have seen him up here buying them , I bet he is not the only US politician stocked with Habanos but the rules don't apply to them ! :ss


Next time get a picture please.


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## Biglizard1

Rolando said:


> I write a letter to the president about once a year in support of ending the embargo. I find it to be the worst kind of hypocrisy for us to target only military points of interest when we attack a country and we target civillian when we impose long-term embargos.
> 
> It didn't work. It is time to end it and try to bring them back into the fold through peaceful means.


:tpd:

I think this fellow newb has a great point of view and maybe it is worth looking at getting some of our family and friends to write our politicians and get this some more attention!
Maybe some of our pols would like to enjoy a cigar as much as some of us!


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## oldforge

ZedR2 said:


> And how many Habanos does 'Arnold' have in his Humi (?) thousands if not more , I have seen him up here buying them , I bet he is not the only US politician stocked with Habanos but the rules don't apply to them ! :ss


 Former CT Governor Rowland was convicted in a classic contracting kickback case a few years back. His kickbacks included clothes, dinners, liquor, and (alleged  ) Cuban cigars.


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