# Manufacturer says my prices are too low? Raise them or else?



## tccigar (Aug 15, 2007)

*CS,

The party has started! Let's rock the boat a little.......

David vs. Goliath

How do you guys, as Consumers, feel about cigar manufacturers "price fixing" Retailers?

I need advice here. Please help?
Let me explain...............

I have been in the cigar business for about 9 years now. I own the Taboo Cigar brand, but as you will see, this is not about Taboo.

I have only been selling cigars on the internet for a short time now. I wanted to get more exposure for my Taboo Brand and we are doing very well, thanks to you! Taboo has been my #1 selling brand locally in my B&M warehouse for about nine months now. So, I thought it was time to hit the internet. I can't just sell Taboo on my site, so I listed other brands. Not yet, anyway.

In the past I have been told by a few Manufacturers to raise my prices when I ran a sale on my website. And I did! My site had very little content and it was mainly used for my local Customers. I have also had local B&Ms try to get me "cut off" with no success. I love all my manufacturers and have established great relationships over the years. They have done a very nice job in supporting us with the most popular cigars they make.

Today I noticed a very well established B&M and Online Retailer browsing my post in the Retailer forum. My prices kicked their A......on very well known brands.
I thought, Oh no, here it comes again?
Well, it did start again. I knew with my website getting more exposure, thanks to CS, it was bound to happen again. I have already been contacted by one today and I'm sure the flood gates will open tomorrow with more. It is primarily the Boutique guys, not the big two. I'm not gonna mention names, but most of you know the "big two" and they are not a problem. They could care less if I sold everything below cost!

The "Boutique" Cigar companies make a lot of the fine cigars that you guys talk about on here. Not all of them are a problem.

If I don't raise the prices on my site, they will "cut me off". What they actually do is put you on back order until you raise your prices. They have been getting away with this practice for years. No one has ever made an attempt to do anything about it.

No one has had the balls to sue them and I'm not convinced that would do any good? I never sued anyone and don't even like the thought of it. That is why I have always given in to their demands.

Well, I think I'm tired of that now, but I need their cigars. At least until Taboo is a little further down the road!:tu My Lawyer says, let em' try it and he wants to go after them. I don't want to sue them because many are friends. But, because I have very low overhead, I can compete with all the Big Boys on the Name Brand Stogies.

This is what I think. I raise the prices. Then I offer bigger discount coupons? Or do I tell them "No" and see what happens? I know what happens, that's the problem. And they get away with it.:hn

Many Cigar manufacturers do not sell some of the big Mail Order companies because the B&M's have complained about their prices for years. So, they choose to sell B&M's (with no large web presence or discounts) only.

I say, sell all cigars (for the same price) to all B&M's and Mail Order Companies. Then, let everyone compete over Customer Service and quit their bitchin' because a Retailer is selling you cigars too cheap! They should just be more grateful they are selling a million plus cigars per year!

I totally understand this goes on in other industries, but not all. 
I just want to know if there is any creative solution to this problem?
Until Taboo is selling a million plus, I may have no choice?

Do I go to war with the Big Boys?:gn

Or do I continue to give in?:hn

I'm beginning to get tired of the :BS..................

Some of them may have an issue with this post. If so, that's their problem. I think I have every right to sell cigars for whatever I like and should not have to worry about being price fixed? Unless it is a brand that I have had to sign a written price fix contract for.

Please don't ask who has threatened me. I can not say. That will for sure cause problems that I don't have time for.

Thanks for everything. You guys are really a great bunch of people that I love to serve.

I think this is a losing battle that I can not win?

thanks
Rob

*


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## JE3146 (Jan 15, 2008)

Regardless of what happens... my next order will be from you. Even if I only can choose house brand 

Stand up post. 

As for advice.... I have no idea. This sounds like a double edged sword.


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## Tour De Cigar (Feb 26, 2007)

tccigar said:


> *CS,
> 
> The party has started! Let's rock the boat a little.......
> 
> ...


why would they wanna cut you off if they are making money off you.. regardless if you are making a profiet or not as long as they get their money (manufact).. I would think as a manufact.. that should be there concerns, getting there money.. well to sum it up it just sounds like plain old hating against your company..:hn I guess the other boys cant cut the pricess like you.. Like was mention earlier this is a double edge sword..  well good luck on your decision :tu


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## gamayrouge (Dec 21, 2007)

I wouldn't want you to run your business into the ground. I'd give in, maintain your relationships and offer larger discounts. At least until Taboo is 100% If you do discounts at the checkout then can't get mad at you because the list price on the website is MSRP.

What pisses me off is all the stores raising prices on smokes, the companies don't have problems with that do they? I mean $35 for a $13 dollar cigar? Who's gonna stand up for the little guy (the consumer.)


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## gnukfu (Dec 19, 2007)

Rob,

If your supply is cut off then obviously that is not good for your business. I would say go with the % or $ off coupons on the entire order and keep your prices where it is "safe". As far as a lawsuit, that is your decision since the farther you go in the process the more $$ it will cost you. Previous cases/precedent of this type may give you some indication on the odds of winning.


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## drhalle (Jul 24, 2007)

I'm glad your business is doing well. This site is a great place to utilize the combined energy and knowledge of many loyal cigar smokers to help in maintaining internet interest and volume sales. The Pricepoint of Taboo cigars is being questioned by suppliers due to complaints by other distributors that because of your overhead, you are undercutting their prices. Not a new problem in the cigar retail business or any business for that matter. 
Should you fight the good fight and defend your right to do business as you see fit? 
Not an easy question to answer my friend. Because they think they have a right to do business their way also.
If you fight the battle and lose the war, it wasn't worth the fight.
I do like the idea of the discount coupons as a way of continuing the sales. If this will comply with the suppliers requests, by all means give it a go.
Competition for our hard earned dollar is of course the best stimulus for retailers to lower prices, if the market isn't a closed or controlled market. 
Good luck and thanks for posting here. :tu


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## SeanGAR (Jul 9, 2004)

The reason that they get away with this is because the practice is not widely publicized as to WHO is pulling this crap. The manufacturer makes the same amount of money selling a pallet of cigars wholesale to somebody selling at MSRP, more than MSRP or less than MSRP. In fact, if you have higher volume because of lower prices, they make more money.

The problem is the competitors who see somebody selling less than MSRP and then running whining to the manufacturer "I'm going to pull my account unless you stop this .. waaa waaa waaa". You see the same thing with other manufacturers.. like Nintendo Wii and Amazon (from an Amazon forum discussion about their $99 Wii promotion before Christmas).

_Nintendo of America has been known to punish retailers (or make it "rough" for them, in Julie's words) for not using the MSRP price by denying or limiting items to retailers (in fact, a class-action lawsuit during the original Nintendo 8-bit system proved this behavior). Nintendo always gets the wholesale price for the item, regardless of the retail selling price, so they didn't lose any money (although Amazon did).

Other retailers (like Target, GameStop, Costco, and so on) cry unfair channel competition when retailers sell for higher or lower (in this case, lower) retail prices from the MRSP. Nintendo will appease them by sending fewer products to retailers such as Amazon.

So yes, Nintendo still makes the same money for each unit sold in the retail channel, but they can control supplies, such as what they're probably doing to Amazon. _

So ... what to do. Well, you can tell the manufacturer in question to go pound bricks. You'll lose the account or have it restricted of course. In this case I would advertise this fact and who was browsing your prices before the SHTF ... so the consumers know who the weasels are. Will that do anything? Will consumers stop buying from ****** ****** because they're whining about competition? No they won't ... at least not many. And honestly that won't make you look good ... so this really isn't worthwhile.

I like the idea you already mentioned. I think you can reevaluate your retail strategy with coupons as you mentioned so your discounts could be based on and provided for repeat customers. This could give the regular customer a price that is similar to what they get when you undercut MSRP, and the competition can't whine too much since you're not giving coupons for a particular product ... so they can't say you're under their MSRP prices.

Obviously you need to carefully evaluate this in relation to your margins, so it doesn't result in you losing $ because the coupons are used for other lower margin products.


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## TripleF (May 16, 2007)

Rob -
It's a tough situation "THEY" have placed you in.

As a business person, entrepeneur, I know I would do what it takes to build sales and profits from what I manufacture or create. In your case, it's your own line of cigars. 

I might suggest playing the game with them so it'll help bring traffic, build customer lists and so on over the next couple of years, and then remove their products and promote and sell only yours.

It does tweak my cowboy hat to say the least, knowing that they are forcing the retail price on you, but keep in mind......People do business with people they know, like and trust!!


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## Deriffe (Jul 27, 2004)

Allow me to present things from a little different perspective. While I don't agree with anyone using strong arm tactics and price fixing, I can see the side of the owner of the brick and mortar shop since I'm close friends with two of them. 

Internet sales sites have a distinct and unfair advantage over B&M shops. For the most part, you don't have to charge the same taxes B&M shops do. The big box internet sales sites are selling huge amounts and can therefore see profit through volumn and not rely so much on a per stick profit. 

The B&M is paying rent, utilities, and all the state, local and federal kickbacks required from small business owners who have a store front with employees. This increases their per stick price to just break even.

One of my great joys several times a week is to go to one of two favorite shops, buy a cigar from them, set in their lounge area and smoke my cigar while having long discussions about gentlemanly topics like the big hooters on the clerk that works next door. 

I'm also acquainted with a couple of manufacturers reps. Brick and Mortar cigar shops have been the corner stone in the cigar industry since the 1800's. The cigar makers are trying to walk a tight rope between loyalty to their retailers and making a profit but don't expect to be happy if you demand them to choose between internet sales and the neighborhood shops. 

To be sure, the online sources offer a cheaper product, but I can't set in your lounge, have a relaxing cigar and free cup of coffee while looking google eyed at the big hooter clerk next door. To me, that is more important than getting an extra 2 bucks off the price of a stick. :ss


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## replicant_argent (May 13, 2006)

It could be that they are trying to stop you from devaluing the brands MSRP. If that is the case, it would be like Gurkha slapping CI's and CBid's hand for selling their cigars for one third to one half value (or MSRP if you will, and I think you might) quite commonly... Of course value is quite subjective and they do have the right not to sell to anyone they do not believe is "worthy" of retailing their cigars.


Oh wait... did I say that aloud? Maybe they don't get their hands slapped because they move boatloads of product and Hansotia can turn a blind eye to that when he cashes a very large check from them each month.


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## Mowee (Jan 1, 2000)

Unfortunately because of last year's Supreme Court Decision Leegan Leather decision manufacturers CAN set minimum pricing. The court held that B&M stores have more invested and companies can protect them with minimum pricing. They have inventory, overhead, rent etc. The case was against a discounter here in the Dallas area. It overturned a 1911 doctrine. So unfortunately it is an uphill battle.


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## n2advnture (Aug 9, 2004)

This is probably as a direct result of the Supreme Court's overturning of the 'Dr. Miles' antitrust precedent (set in 1911) this past summer.

Many manufacturers were sort of doing this prior but not so openly but since the Supreme Court's decision to make it legal, many have recently decided to do it more openly.


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## massphatness (Jan 4, 2008)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Taboo a B&M with a strong web presence as well?


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## n2advnture (Aug 9, 2004)

Mowee said:


> Unfortunately because of last year's Supreme Court Decision Leegan Leather decision manufacturers CAN set minimum pricing. The court held that B&M stores have more invested and companies can protect them with minimum pricing. They have inventory, overhead, rent etc. The case was against a discounter here in the Dallas area. It overturned a 1911 doctrine. So unfortunately it is an uphill battle.


Beat me to it by a min. 

Another point made by the S.C's ruling was that "discounters" get the benefit of the massive cost of advertising as well.


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## smokinpoke (Apr 8, 2006)

SeanGAR said:


> The problem is the competitors who see somebody selling less than MSRP and then running whining to the manufacturer "I'm going to pull my account unless you stop this .. waaa waaa waaa".


This is what it boils down to. I would continue with what you are doing and tell the manufactures that you actually have a better oppurtunity of selling more of their brand at a discounted price because of your low overhead than the competition.

Good luck to you in your battle.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

Deriffe said:


> Allow me to present things from a little different perspective. While I don't agree with anyone using strong arm tactics and price fixing, I can see the side of the owner of the brick and mortar shop since I'm close friends with two of them.
> 
> Internet sales sites have a distinct and unfair advantage over B&M shops. For the most part, you don't have to charge the same taxes B&M shops do. The big box internet sales sites are selling huge amounts and can therefore see profit through volumn and not rely so much on a per stick profit.


IMHO, any retail B&M shop that is not using Internet sales to supplement their income has no excuse to complain. The technology is there, the tools are there... if they aren't taking advantage of it as an additional sales medium, it's their own damn fault. I see no reason to drag others back down to their level of mediocrity in that regard.


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## borndead1 (Oct 21, 2006)

moki said:


> IMHO, any retail B&M shop that is not using Internet sales to supplement their income has no excuse to complain. The technology is there, the tools are there... if they aren't taking advantage of it as an additional sales medium, it's their own damn fault. I see no reason to drag others back down to their level of mediocrity in that regard.


:tpd:!!!!!!

Price fixing sucks. 

I have a guess as to who it is too. Just a guess, I could be wrong.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

SeanGAR said:


> The problem is the competitors who see somebody selling less than MSRP and then running whining to the manufacturer "I'm going to pull my account unless you stop this .. waaa waaa waaa". You see the same thing with other manufacturers.. like Nintendo Wii and Amazon (from an Amazon forum discussion about their $99 Wii promotion before Christmas).


That's certainly part of it; but also cigar makers do not want to see their carefully built up boutique brand tossed in the discount bin. I know a number of manufacturers that would rather _buy the cigars back_ from the vendor than see them discounted in that manner.

It's about image, and perceived value to the consumer. It takes years to build it up, and cigar makers are understandably concerned about anything that would damage it.

In any event, what's being discussed here is, essentially, price fixing. They are being smart about it by not actually engaging in price fixing, but just cutting off the vendor until the prices are changed...

_*What is price fixing?*

Most state statutes provide that fixing the price of a product or service in agreement with another individual or business is illegal. The general rule provides that a vendor may not in combination with another vendor agree to set a certain price thereby creating a fixed price within a certain market. A business acting on its own and not in concert with another may use legitimate efforts to obtain the best price they can, including their ability to raise prices to the detriment of the general public. Also, conformity of prices within a given product is not illegal unless such conformity was created by a combination of vendors agreeing on a set price. For example, where competitors agree to sell their goods or services at a specified price, minimum price or maximum price and they receive profits from such an agreement, they are in violation of price fixing. Additionally, setting a price to be charged only within a certain area in order to get rid of competition or to create a monopoly is generally illegal under most state laws. A majority of states have also enacted a "Below-Sales-Cost" law wherein businesses may not sell goods below cost if they do so with anti-competitive intent or effect.

This information is only a brief summary of the extensive price fixing laws and regulations. For specific application of price fixing regulations, please consult with an attorney._


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## JCK (Nov 9, 2006)

Rob,

Some very good points have been made in this thread. SeanGar and Deriffe hit the nail on the head for me with the two perspectives. Whichever route you choose, please do not jeopardize your business unless you believe it's worth the battle and that you can continue your operations without certain manufacturers.

One of my local B&Ms ran into similar trouble when he pushed the buttons of some manufacturers. I would hate to see that happen to you.

I believe you can advertise the manufacturers pricing or even their 'allowable' discounts off MSRP, then offer coupons as you have done in the past.

At any rate, I took advantage of a recent Taboo Promotion. I was quite pleased with the entire experience. Your operation is top rate.

Thanks for keeping the interest of the jungle at heart.

Ji


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

* Supreme Court Okays Price Fixing*

High Court Says Manufacturers Can Set Retail Prices

By Mark Huffman
ConsumerAffairs.Com

June 28, 2007 
The suggested retail price is no longer a suggestion. The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that manufacturers are within their rights to set prices for consumers, and to forbid discounting if they choose.

A divided court voted 5-4 to overturn a 96-year-old law against retail price fixing.

This is a court decision that consumers could quickly feel in the pocketbook. Under the old law, price competition could be fierce, resulting in loss leaders and door buster specials that stores used to draw customers. In the process, smart shoppers could sometimes find money-saving bargains.

Now, if Sony decides its newest HDTV wide screen model will sell for $2,200, there's no point in running between Best Buy, Wal-Mart and the electronics boutique in the mall. You'll pay the same price at all three places.

The old law stemmed from a 1911 anti-trust case, in which a maker of patented medicines successfully argued that price-fixing arrangements between manufacturers and retailer were illegal.

Writing for the majority, Justice Anthony Kennedy concluded the rule was out of date and out of step in the global economy.

Resale price maintenance can increase inter-brand competition by encouraging retailer services, Kennedy wrote.

The justices rejected arguments that competition would suffer as a result of overturning the law. Manufacturers will still compete with one another on price, the court said.

Thursday's ruling stemmed from a case involving a California handbag maker. The owner had insisted that retailers sell his products at a set price and not offer discounts


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## DriftyGypsy (May 24, 2006)

Price Fixing... you want to know who the biggest price fixer in the US is Apple Computer... yes, all you Macheads your great and gloriuos leader Steve Jobs is a price fixer... The company I work for was founded in 1980 we were then called Jonathan's Apple. We were the seventh authorized Apple retailer/reseller in the United States. Last year we lost our Apple authorization, why because we do not sell enough of their product and why is that, because we could no compete with MacWarehouse, MacMall and others. We had to sell THEIR hardware at their MSRP (okay so I could knock $5 or $10 bucks off) But, the major online retailers would throw in a discounted or FREE printer or a Free memory upgrade. Something that we could not do. That is how they got around the Mac MSRP. 

So, what can Taboo do, sell the cigars at MSRP and offer backend discounts, maybe sell a fiver and get one free or a box and get five free. Maybe not of the same cigar but something like that.

OH and Apple's price fixing has been going on for years. Long before last years Supreme Court decision...


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## Mr.Maduro (Aug 2, 2006)

khubli said:


> Rob,
> 
> Some very good points have been made in this thread. SeanGar and Deriffe hit the nail on the head for me with the two perspectives. Whichever route you choose, please do not jeopardize your business unless you believe it's worth the battle and that you can continue your operations without certain manufacturers.
> 
> ...


:tpd: Well said!!


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## neoflex (Jan 3, 2006)

I hate reading this crap. I used to buy a lot of my boxes from the Tobacco Leaf in Vegas because their online pricing was untouchable. Well, low and behold they eventually got the attention of other retailers by numerous posts popping up on a number of forums and low and behold the manufacturers seemed to respond to the whining of retailers who must have felt that they were at a disadvantage because they would not compete with their pricing so it seems the manufacturers put pressure on them as their pricing went way up and on par with the rest of the vendors out there. I personally hate this crap. If a vendor can afford to make less of a profit and the consumer reaps the benefits than tough chit for the retailer who refuses to compete with pricing. Why bother setting msrps if a vendor who prices at or slightly above msrp gets beat up for it?
Not to sound like a complete @ss but this is why I try not to post really good deals in general forums and if I see someone posting about a brand/line that they are looking to buy I will try to lead them to the vendor with good pricing through PM. Yes, it seems a little selfish but I have learned through the years that as word gets around the deals go away, and it seems that really good deals are getting tougher and tougher to find. Have not had any dealings with Taboo yet but plan to on my next purchase but this is the plus with dealing with smaller online vendors like Taboo where you can actually speak and form a relationship with the person taking the orders. I have found that if you deal with a particular vendor and rep more often they are more likely to throw you a deal that may not be available to the general public. Hearing this just gives me even more reason to give Taboo my business in the future. I would be curious but don't expect to find out who the vendor that bitched was because IMHO that is just a low class move and I hope that person reads this post.:mn


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## wayner123 (Mar 29, 2007)

That is very unfortunate that is happening to you. The Supreme Court has made a few weird descisions these past few years (Eminent Domain). The bad thing is that you cannot do much about it, when it has gone that high, short of a Supreme Court hearing. Then you may fall inot the anti-tobacco people, and it would get very messy.

I like the ideas of coupons and leaving the storefront MSRP. :r At least then the whiny guys would have to purchase something to see what the dicount was.



gamayrouge said:


> What pisses me off is all the stores raising prices on smokes, the companies don't have problems with that do they? I mean $35 for a $13 dollar cigar? Who's gonna stand up for the little guy (the consumer.)


I too don't understand this. If price fixing is price fixing, then why don't those retailers who sell above and far above MSRP get punished as well??


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## DriftyGypsy (May 24, 2006)

Actually, what the manufacturers claim is when you sell their product at a discount is you are de-valuing their product. So someone selling above MSRP is not de-valuing their product but making it appear more valuable then it actually is. You don't complain about that.


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## macjoe53 (Jul 8, 2007)

SeanGAR said:


> The reason that they get away with this is because the practice is not widely publicized as to WHO is pulling this crap. The manufacturer makes the same amount of money selling a pallet of cigars wholesale to somebody selling at MSRP, more than MSRP or less than MSRP. In fact, if you have higher volume because of lower prices, they make more money.
> 
> The problem is the competitors who see somebody selling less than MSRP and then running whining to the manufacturer "I'm going to pull my account unless you stop this .. waaa waaa waaa". You see the same thing with other manufacturers.. like Nintendo Wii and Amazon (from an Amazon forum discussion about their $99 Wii promotion before Christmas).
> 
> ...


You forgot the biggie who does this the most - Apple Computers. Have you ever wondered why you can't just go anywhere and buy a Mac? Or why no matter where you go the Ipod's all cost the same? Apple has done this for as long as they have been in business.


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## macjoe53 (Jul 8, 2007)

DriftyGypsy said:


> Price Fixing... you want to know who the biggest price fixer in the US is Apple Computer... yes, all you Macheads your great and gloriuos leader Steve Jobs is a price fixer... The company I work for was founded in 1980 we were then called Jonathan's Apple. We were the seventh authorized Apple retailer/reseller in the United States. Last year we lost our Apple authorization, why because we do not sell enough of their product and why is that, because we could no compete with MacWarehouse, MacMall and others. We had to sell THEIR hardware at their MSRP (okay so I could knock $5 or $10 bucks off) But, the major online retailers would throw in a discounted or FREE printer or a Free memory upgrade. Something that we could not do. That is how they got around the Mac MSRP.
> 
> So, what can Taboo do, sell the cigars at MSRP and offer backend discounts, maybe sell a fiver and get one free or a box and get five free. Maybe not of the same cigar but something like that.
> 
> OH and Apple's price fixing has been going on for years. Long before last years Supreme Court decision...


Yep. You're right. My favorite "Mac" store was The Computer Shoppe in Metairie, LA. They are just about out of the sales end of the business because they couldn't sell cheaper than the places like Macwarehouse or CDW and make a profit. Then Apple stopped letting them order inventory stock without paying full price up front.

As much as I love my Mac's - and that's all that I use - I hate their sale practices.


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## hova45 (Jun 17, 2007)

tccigar said:


> *CS,
> 
> The party has started! Let's rock the boat a little.......
> 
> ...


Rob I will support you in whatever you do and i will boycott these company's and spend my money somewhere else that does care about their customers and retailers.


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## hova45 (Jun 17, 2007)

moki said:


> IMHO, any retail B&M shop that is not using Internet sales to supplement their income has no excuse to complain. The technology is there, the tools are there... if they aren't taking advantage of it as an additional sales medium, it's their own damn fault. I see no reason to drag others back down to their level of mediocrity in that regard.


:tpd: This is also just hate on part of other retailers and the fact that you are ratting someone ot and complaining like a little B$$#$ is something I cannot tolerate. If you can't compete don't but don't ruin it for the customers.


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## Addiction (May 8, 2007)

I think you go along to get along. I'd guess smaller cigar makers feel the squeeze more than the bigs. Company A makes cigars 1, 2, and 3. If you take one of those cigars and sell it below MSRP and that makes a splash it causes a percieved loss of value across the line. The smaller you are the more important that is.

I'm sure you'll see the same thing as Taboo gets bigger.


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## ZYA_LTR (Oct 15, 2007)

I say do like alot of the other retailers i have seen do, ecspecially on the Gun Forums i frequent, the manufaturers, i.e. SIG SAUER and others, have MAP pricing, Minimum Advertised Pricing, then you email/contact the business to get the "Forum Discount" for being members of the specific forum. He still will sell at MSRP/MAP to general public, and call-ins, but to those loyal customers from the forum, and frequent customers, that he is not afraid of ratting him out, he extends the discount. You could do similar by advertising them at there asking price, but have a CS discount that we get with a coupon code, or when we call. I realize that logistically this could be a pain to setup initially with your website, as you'll have to do adjusted pricing with the coupon code, but it is an option.


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## rx2010 (Jan 4, 2007)

hova45 said:


> Rob I will support you in whatever you do and i will boycott these company's and spend my money somewhere else that does care about their customers and retailers.


:tpd:

if someone wants to cut you off feel free to let us know who it is, between the brothers on here and the people we know, that's a lot of cigars that may not be purchased from a given company


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## MeNimbus (Dec 18, 2006)

Thank you Rob for all the great cigars:tu. I think it will be prudent for you to cut off your suppliers. Having a good business relationship is vital to any business. I like the idea of selling cigars at MSRP (to appease the manufacturers), but offer your discount to mailing list customers. :2

If you decide to boycott any of the manufacturers, I am behind you as well.


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## SmokeyJoe (Oct 3, 2006)

Hey Rob,

I have confidence you will make the best decision you can... for your business, for the customers, and ultimately for the manufacturer. That is the order you have to work from, and you will do it in a way that will protect your customers as much as you can. We know this is a business... and manufacturers are your life blood. Just sorry you have to face that particular kind of headache in this whole thing... 

On the plus side, when TABOO becomes known as "one of the Big Three" you will have a lot more say in the matter. :tu


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## bobarian (Oct 1, 2007)

Good luck with this Rob. As others have said the coupon discount would seem to be the most effective way of fighting this cause. If you decide to set lower prices on your private line, you can always set a two tier coupon so you do not drop you margins on house brands below an acceptable level. However you decide to handle this it appears you have the wholehearted support of many members(customers) here on the board. :tu


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## tccigar (Aug 15, 2007)

*Thanks for the replies guys. You have been a great help. I will continue reading your posts. 
Until Taboo Cigars exceeds the total sales of all brands combined, I have no choice here.
I am taking a serious beating from some Manufacturers this morning. I have to act fast and change some prices on my website before they get too pissed off. They have had complaints about my website.
It pisses me off that other Retailers have to complain. 
I will go to work on the new coupons after I change the prices. You can pm me your Name, phone and what cigars you are interested in and I will put you on my VIP call list. Many of you have already done this.
I will be changing the brands that I have not had complaints from, and also the ones that I expect to have complaints from.
So, just because you see some of the price changes, that does not mean they are the ones currently putting the heat on me.

Any Manufacturer that disrupts business as usual with me after I change my prices, you will then be given Their Names and contact information. Until then I can not disclose them. Hopefully, we will not go there. I will respect their request.

You will always be able to buy Taboo Cigars at low prices. I do not plan to use any expensive advertising or "fancy" packaging. You will only pay for the cigars. I will continue to work hard on new blends. My goal is to have at least ONE blend withing the Taboo Line that everyone enjoys. We are pretty darn close to achieving that goal now. I'd say I have done that for 80% of the people who have tried ALL of our blends. I would like 100%. We are having great success thanks to guys like you!

I appreciate your understanding and support. I am glad I brought this out in the open for discussion. It may or may not cost me in the long run. But, I have always told people the truth. I am not one to lie or tell people what they want to hear. Nor am I afraid to stick up for anyone that is right. I have lived the majority of my life sticking up for the underdog. I will not change until the day I die. Sometimes I get myself in trouble, but I always find my way back with friends and supporters like you.

"They" have won this battle, but I can only win the war with your support!:gn

I wish everyone a wonderful, happy and safe 2008!
THANK YOU
Rob:ss

*


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## mdtaggart (Sep 22, 2006)

Perhaps you could just pull the brands, that are causing you problems, from your website. Sell them in your store and buy phone order only from your mailing list customers. They loose the brand posting on your website, and you sell at whatever price you like. Maybe! 
I was in a B&M one day and overheard a salesrep telling the owner to pull a certain item from his the website. Not sure if it was a price issue or what. 
Some of the brands control there retailers by lying and get found out when the product they said was backordered shows up on the website of a competitor. Some brands can be hard to get, so you just have to decide how bad you want them, and play the game if need be.


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## tccigar (Aug 15, 2007)

*I know who one of the many phone complaints to one of the manufacturers was for sure now. It was a retailer with a very nice website and established B&M. He is a member here. I saw him looking at my specials yesterday. Sure enough, he called and complained.
Thats fine.
I can not disclose this person. It would get someone in trouble and disclosing this cry baby is not worth it. I'll just :BS on him. :tu

Taboo moves on

Thanks for all the great advice and support
Rob:ss
*


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## hotreds (Dec 4, 2007)

Agree with those who say to go ahead and increase your prices, just give an equivalent discount to "preferred members!"


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## mostholycerebus (Sep 24, 2006)

tccigar said:


> *I know who one of the many phone complaints to one of the manufacturers was for sure now. It was a retailer with a very nice website and established B&M. He is a member here. I saw him looking at my specials yesterday. Sure enough, he called and complained.
> Thats fine.
> I can not disclose this person. It would get someone in trouble and disclosing this cry baby is not worth it. I'll just :BS on him. :tu
> 
> ...


Hmm, whats the procedure here on CS for such a thing? On other forums the mods investigate and ban such retailers, as ultimately they hurt the forum community.


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## Hawk6815 (Jun 22, 2007)

Well good luck with making all your competition happy. 

At any rate, I just placed my first order with you online, and plan to place many more in the future. So if nothing else, this has brought you a new customer. 

Will


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## JJVaughn (Sep 10, 2007)

mostholycerebus said:


> Hmm, whats the procedure here on CS for such a thing? On other forums the mods investigate and ban such retailers, as ultimately they hurt the forum community.


:tpd:

PM a mod and let him investigate. If he thinks that it's legit I say we organize a boycott....unless it's c-bid 

Power to the people!!!


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## Munkey (Jan 14, 2008)

I have a B&M A, 5 minutes from my house. They recently became an official dealer for a particular brand. Now, there is another B&M B, about 30 minutes from my house (better service, better prices). They have 5-7 stores and a very established website. Their holiday stock of the brand/cigar in question has been delayed (still not in as of this week). Before Christmas, B&M A had large bags full (up to my knees) of the cigar in question as well as many others from this same manufaturer. All hard to get, all very expensive. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why B&M B didn't get any stock. They still don't know why and I don't have the heart to tell them.



mdtaggart said:


> Some of the brands control there retailers by lying and get found out when the product they said was backordered shows up on the website of a competitor. Some brands can be hard to get, so you just have to decide how bad you want them, and play the game if need be.


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## Deriffe (Jul 27, 2004)

Just be careful who you share your discount pricing with. Ask Uncle Mikey what happens when loose lips start flapping. :cb


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## Deriffe (Jul 27, 2004)

moki said:


> IMHO, any retail B&M shop that is not using Internet sales to supplement their income has no excuse to complain. The technology is there, the tools are there... if they aren't taking advantage of it as an additional sales medium, it's their own damn fault. I see no reason to drag others back down to their level of mediocrity in that regard.


With the two shops I frequent, one barely knows how to turn a computer on and the other would need several more permits and licenses to operate a seperate (which would be required in that state) internet business. Mediocrity is relative. I doubt seriously if I would spend much time at a mediocre cigar shop.


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## Infin1ty (May 12, 2007)

I suggest offering a good discount, and then throw in a few Taboo with every order. It would help with boosting up the popularity of the Taboo, and you would be able to tell the manufactures to :fu sooner!


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## SeanGAR (Jul 9, 2004)

tccigar said:


> I can not disclose this person. It would get someone in trouble and disclosing this cry baby is not worth it.


Dunno .... I would like to know who it was so I can avoid buying from them in the future. :mn

They seem like a pimply-faced, fat kid who wants to keep an athlete from competing with them in a race, so they tell the athlete's mother that the athlete was out drinking past curfew.

This stinks .. and the only way to combat it is to let us know, so we can stop purchasing from a company that wants to limit our choices for inexpensive cigars. They want us to pay more for cigars .. to increase the chance they get the order. What they should do is to be competitive on prices, instead of being backhanded, pantywaisted, little putzes.


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## Silound (May 22, 2007)

I'm going to agree with previous posts regarding the contacting of Mods.

Bickering amongst retailers on this forums is _very_ counter-productive to the spirit and nature of this forum. If someone has an issue with another person's prices, they should seek a better resolution than damaging another person's business.

Rob - You're still on my list of "to-try" cigars! I just have to continue thinning out my stash of over 2000 sticks before I commit to more purchases....I'm out of room to store stuff currently.


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## tccigar (Aug 15, 2007)

SeanGAR said:


> Dunno .... I would like to know who it was so I can avoid buying from them in the future. :mn
> 
> .................................................................................................. They want us to pay more for cigars .. to increase the chance they get the order. What they should do is to be competitive on prices, instead of being backhanded, pantywaisted, little putzes.


I agree 100%. The difference is, I did something about it. I started Taboo and have had great success and tried to become more competitive on other brands. But I am not going to bash or disclose who it was.
They need to worry about their own Customer Service and quit worrying about what someone else is doing! If they take care of the Customers they have, they will get new ones from referrals.
I really don't think TabooCigars.com is going to put them out of business. If that were the case, JR,CI and many more would have done that a long time ago!
Taboo moves on
Thanks for all the wisdom and support, CS Members!
Rob:ss


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## DBall (Jun 4, 2007)

SeanGAR said:


> Dunno .... I would like to know who it was so I can avoid buying from them in the future. :mn


:tpd: 100%


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## tccigar (Aug 15, 2007)

*Thanks for the support to all of you!
I have already begun to edit and delete product on the site. I will be busy the next couple of days. Taboo will not be going up!:tu

I appreciate the orders, but that was not the purpose of this Thread. I was so angry about the "price fixing" headed my way, I had to "vent" and let you guys know how this industry operates.

Keep in mind, This is typically not a practice of the two largest manufacturers and not all the of the smaller ones. But most of you know who they are. Wise Gorillas in this Jungle!:tu

I was also seeking advice from all the wise Gorillas here at CS.
I have and continue to get great advice and support.
You guys have helped so much.
Greatly appreciate your time.
Now I have to do some work on some prices........:hn

Rob
*


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## butterbeezy (Sep 12, 2007)

Don't forget Rob... Karma is a BIATCH and these rat snitching retailers will get theirs. :mnI believe they're sporting that new cologne... IT SMELLS LIKE JEALOUSY!


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## mdtaggart (Sep 22, 2006)

Whatever happened to good ole competition? I can see eveyones prices on the web and beat them if I want too (if I were a retailer). Why would any reputable retailer pull such a stunt as to actually call the manufaturer and complain about his competition, unless his business was so weak and he is scared of you.Maybe it is a compliment of sorts to your success. Survival of the fittest, I say! 
I would also ask the same complaining retail how he feels about paying higher gasoline prices due to some of these same kind of tactics.


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## mostholycerebus (Sep 24, 2006)

Looks like Fuentes got pulled, and LFD's, any one notice any others? Too bad, I was gonna grab a few Fuente boxes this year for gifts, screw it, i'll just get some Bolivars (or Taboos?) instead.


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## dantzig (Oct 18, 2007)

This is very unfortunate. It will do nothing to help the other retailer (and will hurt him if we find out who is responsible!) and will only hurt your business. I've been very pleased with the service that I've received from Taboo cigars. You run a top notch operation and it's a shame that someone thinks that they need to bring you down to make themselves look better.


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## tchariya (Feb 26, 2007)

Deriffe said:


> Allow me to present things from a little different perspective. While I don't agree with anyone using strong arm tactics and price fixing, I can see the side of the owner of the brick and mortar shop since I'm close friends with two of them.
> 
> Internet sales sites have a distinct and unfair advantage over B&M shops. For the most part, you don't have to charge the same taxes B&M shops do. The big box internet sales sites are selling huge amounts and can therefore see profit through volumn and not rely so much on a per stick profit.
> 
> ...


Dude....amen! That is why I go to my b&m every night. I can find deals at the big box etailers, but i only order the stuff I can't get at my b&m. Otherwise I just buy from them, and they offer decent discounts on multiple sticks and box purchase...as well as freebies for being such a great customer!

A lot of the etailers sell junk anyway. Who the hell smokes Havana Honeys or whatever the hell they are? (for example)


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## cigarlvr (Jan 13, 2008)

*Do you know who the players are Hurting*

They are hurting all of us that have been loyal to there brands. You have Rob who is trying to make a living offering great PESONAL service and then great prices. He offers great prices to real cigar smokers on this site as well as his private list of club members that most likely couldn't afford to smoke some fine cigars as often. He has put many in real cigar smokers hands that wouldn't have been able to afford to even try one. Rob you can't fight city hall and I am afraid that is exactly what it is. When the reps come around and try and push more on you just make sure you remind them of there policy. Rob is a first class guy who was trying to help out this comunity and look what happens. Yes he is trying to make a buck but a very fair one at that. Is it me or has the loyal brands we have been supporting forgot about the consumer and what we want. Without us the Goverment will pass many more anti-smoking laws that will put them out of business. Dont worry it all goes around in a full circle.


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## chupacabrah (Jan 2, 2008)

*the man is always trying to keep us down*

Issues like this one are enough to push me to buy MORE from Taboo....not less.

fight the system. with coupons, rebates, or whatever else doesn't hurt the business for now. :tu


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## compuag (Dec 16, 2007)

I've been wanting to try the Taboo line for a while. This :BS just made my decision alot easier.

Order placed! :tu

Thanks for all your doing Rob!


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## Dan_ (Dec 16, 2006)

Deriffe said:


> Internet sales sites have a distinct and unfair advantage over B&M shops. For the most part, you don't have to charge the same taxes B&M shops do. The big box internet sales sites are selling huge amounts and can therefore see profit through volumn and not rely so much on a per stick profit.


How is this unfair? The B&M have the exact same opportunity to make their own internet sales sites.


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## frankile (Nov 18, 2007)

Rob, to show my support I will place another order today. :tu:tu

Frank


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## tccigar (Aug 15, 2007)

frankile said:


> Rob, to show my support I will place another order today. :tu:tu
> 
> Frank


Thank you, Sir.
I appreciate everyone that placed orders, posted their replies and will consider Taboo Cigars as a part of their humidor.
After the beating I have taken from the Manf's over my prices, I need all the help you guys can give me.:tu
Rob


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## cigarlvr (Jan 13, 2008)

And most of the big boys have started this way had a store and added the internet and were able to start an empire:2


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## JCK (Nov 9, 2006)

tccigar said:


> Thank you, Sir.
> I appreciate everyone that placed orders, posted their replies and will consider Taboo Cigars as a part of their humidor.
> _After the beating I have taken from the Manf's over my prices_, I need all the help you guys can give me.:tu
> Rob


So whoever brought to light your website to a manufacturer made it known to SEVERAL manufacturers?

I was of the opinion before in order to protect someone from getting in trouble, you should keep the information to yourself. Now I believe the effort put into discussing your operations with several manufacturers goes beyond dirty.

Robert, please consider involving the moderation/administration team here. This not only affects your business, the jungle, but other retailers that offer specials here at ClubStogie.

Ji


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## CigarMonkel (Jan 7, 2008)

Dear Rob,
As a never before customer but a clubstogie member i would like to say from what i have heard your customer service is THE BEST out there. I have heard MANY stories about how you will stay on the phone for 15,20minutes talking about how peoples days went and whats new and how things are going while you try to figure out if you can get them a certain cigar or not. I have also heard you walk people through over the phone, on how to order online (not all of us are good with computers/internet). So if it came down to all the same prices for B&M's and all that stuff you were talking about... you by far would lead them all. Yes they would start sucking up to their customers and "dealing" with them cause they have to to stay in business. You on the other hand good sir, do it because you actually give a :BS about your customers and not they money they pull out of their wallet. You care about the cigars they receive and if they smoke well, you actually care if we are satisfied with our purchases and smokes. That sir, is why you would lead the others. Sadly, that is not how the world works today. People will do anything to nickle and dime people these days to stay ahead of the pack. 

My personal opinion is, if you have a lot of friends working for the company you are wanting to sue, then why sue and lose friends? friends you cannot buy. Friends you meet due to fate (if you believe in fate) or by chance. You meet them at random places and never expect to make a friend. Why let something like that be destroyed over money? I realize you wouldnt sue for the money but to make a point which i would completely back you up on. I think you should increase your coupons worth and raise the prices. It's a win win situation for everyone, you keep your friends and the overall lower tobacco prices. No offense to your lawyer by any means but, he is a lawyer he wouldn't exactly profit off of you raising prices and making bigger coupons. I'm not saying him wanting to fight it is the wrong thing or bad thing cause honestly, i would probably do the same if i were him. Everyone has to pay their bills and put food on the table.

This is just my :2 and i hope it helps you find the right answer (not that my answer is right). But the answer that you will not regret!

-Ryan


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## ssutton219 (Apr 17, 2007)

khubli said:


> So whoever brought to light your website to a manufacturer made it known to SEVERAL manufacturers?
> 
> I was of the opinion before in order to protect someone from getting in trouble, you should keep the information to yourself. Now I believe the effort put into discussing your operations with several manufacturers goes beyond dirty.
> 
> ...


:tpd:

This does affect all of us. If a retailer can "blow the whistle" on another retailer it is going to affect us as a consumer and all of the other retailers on this board. Now I can understand if there is contract not to sale less than such and such but does not seem the case. I have watched the turn around you have had on the boards here and hope you can triumph over this issue. Good Luck and when I can I too will support your company.

Shawn

it would be nice to know the Company who did this as they do not deserve our business.


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## Deriffe (Jul 27, 2004)

ssutton219 said:


> :tpd:
> 
> it would be nice to know the Company who did this as they do not deserve our business.


It doesn't have to be broadcast in public either. PM's are a wonderful thing. :ss


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## DBall (Jun 4, 2007)

Deriffe said:


> It doesn't have to be broadcast in public either. PM's are a wonderful thing. :ss


I'd rather see it be publicly announced. :2


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## CigarMonkel (Jan 7, 2008)

*deleted due to a misunderstanding of what REALLY happened... my apologies*


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## DBall (Jun 4, 2007)

CigarMonkel said:


> The retailer did not post a thread flaming on Rob's business and *did it the correct way by confronting him personally*.


Did I miss something? I thought the retailer went to the manufacturers and cried foul. I'm not sure where the part about the other retailer personally confronting Rob came from..........


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## CigarMonkel (Jan 7, 2008)

oh i thought it was the other way around. Maybe i missed something. I thought the retailer was complaining to him and the Manufacturer noticed his website with his low costs... his too low of costs.

well... if im wrong and Dball is right... i take back everything i said YARG!!! BURN THE RETAILER!!!
thats gotta be some sort of party foul... i think they have to smoke 5 bundles of dog rockets in one sitting. i mean... thats like stacking the cups when playing beer pong... you just don't do that so they won't get sticky...


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## ssutton219 (Apr 17, 2007)

No the retailer did not do this the "Right Way". I owned a small web based business with my wife and we did well, and we sold a product we added to ours, no mark up on their product but we too were turned in and had a product pulled. This is not good business.


Good Luck Rob!! 


Any more discussion about the "Right or Wrong way" will not be discussed here by me, please bring it to a PM.



Shawn


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## tccigar (Aug 15, 2007)

DBall said:


> Did I miss something? I thought the retailer went to the manufacturers and cried foul. I'm not sure where the part about the other retailer personally confronting Rob came from..........


I agree. If he was to contact me personally, I would have told him where to stick it.

He called the Manufacturer. I have checked several times today and the :chkhas not been logged in. I have my:gnon him. May take em' down at a later date.:hn 
There were several calls from across the country to the Manf. He was just one of them. I just happened to see him looking at my Special Offers in the Retailer Forum yesterday afternoon before I was contacted by the Manf. Today his name was mentioned by the Manf. as well as others as those that complained to them.

thanks
Rob


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## butterbeezy (Sep 12, 2007)

This weak hater needs to be exposed and punished. Growing up, i was taught that SNITCHING is a no-no. We all know what happens to snitches in certain circles :gn :tu


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## doctorcue (Apr 19, 2006)

That guys is totally a HATER. Time for my cooler to get some Taboo!!!!!


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## jmcrawf1 (May 2, 2007)

Rob,

It's up to you whether you decide to tell who snitched on you but I can assure you that retailer will NEVER get an order out of me. out of priniple.


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## upah (Jun 4, 2007)

Not to thread jack by any means but I'm curious how many sales this thread generated? I for one bought a handful of sticks after seeing how competitive Rob's prices are. :ss Guys like Rob make Club Stogie an environment I keep coming back to. Mad props and good luck with your Taboo venture!


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## sames (Oct 23, 2007)

Ever thought of ditching the sale of other cigars and attempting to put Taboo cigars in store nationwide?

IF this goes threw, it is something to think about. :2


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## JDC20 (Feb 11, 2004)

Okay I'm throwing my :2 in on this. I would like to state that I do work for a manufacturer, that may or may not be one of the companies conversing with TCCcigars, and that I have NO knowledge of the situation other than what has been posted here. 

This is a situation that cigar companies run into all the time. 

There are many reasons why a company would frown upon deep discounts on there cigars. A MSRP is in place to level the playing field for everyone. Manufacturers want to see everyone succeed and the least they can do is protect their product for customers to sell and make a profit on. I think most would agree we need more cigars shops not less.

If all stores became "discounters" there would be a race to the bottom, who could offer consumers the same products at the lowest price. This would drastically reduce the number of shops available to do business with, we would be relegated to a few choices who do a large volume. Think of this as the Walmart-ization of the industry. Manufactures do not want too much power concentrated in too few customers. Some will say "well tcccigars is a small guy and wasn't hurting anyone". Well that may or may not be true but some of the other "discounters" see one website discounting more, the race to the bottom quickens. 

Devaluation of a product is another issue to deal with. You guys have to think, some of the cigars on the market are family made and have a tremendous amount of pride, time, and dedication attached to the name. Contrary to popular belief, some manufactures are not all about selling as many cigars as they can at whatever cost. They would not want there name cheapened, disrespected or relegated to a lower tier. Constant discounting of a brand hurts it longevity and its place in the market.

This is pure conjecture, but maybe a manufacture took a look at taboocigars.com and noticed that the heavy discounts offered on their products were meant to drive traffic to the site so taboo could sell more of their cigars. While this is a common practice, I don't think manufactures like the idea of someone cheapening their product in order to sell the stores house brand at a full margin price. 

I know that the majority of people on here believe cheaper cigars= better and for a consumer there is no argument against this. But for my industry it doesn't always work out that way. The cigar industry is a very different kind of business, different than any other I have ever experienced. For the most part, in the shops I see, the best stores are not always the cheapest and in fact the nicest stores never are. This is by no means a comment on taboocigars.com, but just a reflection on the time I have spent in the industry. Price definitely doesn't mean as much in this industry and it does in others. Premium Cigars are a luxury item, it is not a commodity, and while people do like getting a deal, prices are not the driving force in our industry, enjoyment is.

I believe that industry issues such as these should not be discussed in public "cigar enthusiast" forums. There are many intricacy's in the industry that cigar smokers do not know and can cause them to jump to conclusions about one companies behaviors or actions. Actions like these cause animosity towards companies, people, and businesses, which may or may not be appropriate. As an industry I believe that customers, manufacturers, and consumers must stick together as our industry is always under attack. 

Post like these in a public forum don't really help anyone, this is private business matter that should have been dealt with on your on personal business level. 

Again these are just my opinions, take em or leave em. :ss :cb


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## neoflex (Jan 3, 2006)

I know it's not much but I was not planning any purchases for a little bit since I spent a little too much on cigars recently but I decided to purchase a 5er of Oliva Serie V Lanceros from your website. Not much but just wanted to show my support since the cry baby vendors who feel the need to whine and cry decided to complain. I will most definitely do business with you again in the near future. Would have loved to spend more with you this round but I can already hear the B*tching and Moaning about what I spent this month. 
I too would love to know who the snitch was so I know to never to spend my hard earned money with them and support a overgrown crybaby. Good luck and try not to let it get you down.


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## ssutton219 (Apr 17, 2007)

I agree that they should of been held in a business like environment..but when you "rat" out a company because he is doing something you do not like or approve of is wrong. I understand there area lot of factors going on here and I do not buy cigars because of the price, and I do not always go for the "Best" price, its the service, selection and the feel of the company I do business with. I have worked in a few fields that if the common person on the street knew the inner working it would either scare them or shock them. It is a pride issue..and rightfully so, it is a product that is passed down from one person to another (or thats how some of the stories go) and I respect that. To me its the whole thought that another retailer had the gall to call and complain that someone was selling a product cheaper then he/she was. As far as I know they all buy the product for the same price and the object is for ppl to get the product in hand.

I guess I really didn't follow my own statement bout discussing this further but as a former business owner and a consumer this just leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth.



Shawn


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## tccigar (Aug 15, 2007)

sames said:


> Ever thought of ditching the sale of other cigars and attempting to put Taboo cigars in store nationwide?
> 
> IF this goes threw, it is something to think about. :2


I decided to take my cigars direct to the Consumer rather than Retailers. I can sell more cigars by selling you guys direct at a fraction of what they would Retail for.
After another year, I should have a cigar that most everyone will enjoy. Right now about 80% of everyone that has tried all the blends repurchase at least one or more of them. I would like to be at 95%+ by this time next year. My focus this year is to go south of the border more and keep blending until I reach that %.
Great cigars under $5.00 for the most part. Eventually, maybe a Vintage Taboo.
By then, I probably won't care about the price fixers! :ss I may still honor their demands, but I won't depend on their volume.

Taboo Taboo
I appreciate your support more than you guys will ever know. I am committed to bringing you great cigars at very low prices! Direct, no B&M's.

I hope some of you will be helping me test new blends when we start working on them again this year.


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## sandsman1 (Nov 20, 2007)

i didnt read all the pages but just from your 1st post id say theres alotta price gougers out there and they dont wanna make 50 grand a year they wanna rip everyone off and make 100 grand,, if it was me id do what ever it took to keep my customers happy put a discount coupon for repete customers at checkout and during checkout regulate the amout of it to fit your price break per box/brand and call it a loyalty discount or what not-- i dont think its any of the cry babys/gougers biz if you dont mind loosin a couple bucks to sell more stock -- how do you think wallyworld does it more volume cheaper prices happy customers -- and if manufacturers what to cut you off then there just as bad as the ratbastads-- i think they will change there tune after they see the volume you can move 

ps i know one thing if i knew they name of the RAT/gougers they wouldent get a penny more of my biz and im bettin most everyone else would feel the same hell with all the taxs there trying to pile on stogies pretty soon nobody will be able to afford them just like they are doin with cigaretts


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## gnukfu (Dec 19, 2007)

JDC20 said:


> Okay I'm throwing my :2 in on this. I would like to state that I do work for a manufacturer, that may or may not be one of the companies conversing with TCCcigars, and that I have NO knowledge of the situation other than what has been posted here.
> 
> This is a situation that cigar companies run into all the time.
> 
> ...


Gee I feel so guilty now that I will return the Gurkha and Graycliff cigars that I purchased for 25-30% of MSRP on cbid and then repurchase them at MSRP :r. I guess I will leave your opinion . As I do with just about everything I buy I am looking for the lowest possible price from someone I trust. :tu


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## JDC20 (Feb 11, 2004)

gnukfu said:


> Gee I feel so guilty now that I will return the Gurkha and Graycliff cigars that I purchased for 25-30% of MSRP on cbid and then repurchase them at MSRP :r. I guess I will leave your opinion . As I do with just about everything I buy I am looking for the lowest possible price from someone I trust. :tu


No need to feel guilty, the large discount you are referring to is one of those cigar industry intricacies that regular cigar consumers have no knowledge of, nor do they need to. Thanks for validating one of my points. :tu


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## ssutton219 (Apr 17, 2007)

JDC20 said:


> No need to feel guilty, the large discount you are referring to is one of those cigar industry intricacies that regular cigar consumers have no knowledge of, nor do they need to. Thanks for validating one of my points. :tu


What point...because they can buy more they can sell cheaper??? Sounds like a CarMax commercial...

Shawn


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## JDC20 (Feb 11, 2004)

ssutton219 said:


> What point...because they can buy more they can sell cheaper??? Sounds like a CarMax commercial...
> 
> Shawn


That is the small part of the equation, it has more to do with the structure not the product.


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## BengalMan (Aug 13, 2007)

JDC20 said:


> Okay I'm throwing my :2 in on this. I would like to state that I do work for a manufacturer, that may or may not be one of the companies conversing with TCCcigars, and that I have NO knowledge of the situation other than what has been posted here.
> 
> This is a situation that cigar companies run into all the time.
> 
> ...


Couldn't have said it better myself.


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## mostholycerebus (Sep 24, 2006)

JDC, that's a great argument for price-fixing and stagnation of the market. But the fact is, it's detrimental to the consumer, AND the manufacturer. In some ways cigars are different from other markets, but I don't believe they are different enough to effect the basic tenenats of economics. When a product can be sold less, because of lower overhead or other, the consumer benefits. The consumer buys more, and then increases the manufacturers economies of scale. Thus, the manufacturer can lower his costs, make more profit. In the cycle of buying, prices generally go down, quality of product generally goes up, manufacturers make money, and consumers quality of life increases.

What you describe is typical of a manufacturer unable or unwilling to adapt to market changes. We've all seen PLENTY of those as the internet grows. The prices B&M are charging, and their tactics, cannot (or will not) be explained at an economic level, so you (and they) are trying to "add value" in the form of "tradition" or "respect for the industry". Just like the CD industry, the book industry, or really ANY you care to name that have been effected by changing market conditions, these are just an excuse.

Industry issues are an interest of probably the majority of this forum. If there are nuances that make this industry radically different from every other industry out there, I think we would want to know. An informed consumer is also ultimately better for the market. Please, share them with us. I'll also note that animosity from the market is one of the (few) strengths the consumer has, and sometimes it is more than earned.


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## JDC20 (Feb 11, 2004)

You sound like a fellow econ major!

You make some great valid points and one thing I would like to point out is that the opinions I made are my opinions even if they may fly in the face of my free market philosophies. I think it is safe to say that there has been a shift in the industry due to the online presences but it has not been at the same level as books, music, etc.

Premium cigars are a luxury product and they do not follow the same economic plane as commodity goods. Also many of the examples you gave are controlled by giant corporations that live and die by the almighty dollar. That doesn't necessarily happen with the cigar industry. Many families in the industry do this from tradition and family history, and not necessarily from a profit driven position that most corporation are dictated by.

I'll expand more later, my wifes cookies just came out of the oven!



mostholycerebus said:


> JDC, that's a great argument for price-fixing and stagnation of the market. But the fact is, it's detrimental to the consumer, AND the manufacturer. In some ways cigars are different from other markets, but I don't believe they are different enough to effect the basic tenenats of economics. When a product can be sold less, because of lower overhead or other, the consumer benefits. The consumer buys more, and then increases the manufacturers economies of scale. Thus, the manufacturer can lower his costs, make more profit. In the cycle of buying, prices generally go down, quality of product generally goes up, manufacturers make money, and consumers quality of life increases.
> 
> What you describe is typical of a manufacturer unable or unwilling to adapt to market changes. We've all seen PLENTY of those as the internet grows. The prices B&M are charging, and their tactics, cannot (or will not) be explained at an economic level, so you (and they) are trying to "add value" in the form of "tradition" or "respect for the industry". Just like the CD industry, the book industry, or really ANY you care to name that have been effected by changing market conditions, these are just an excuse.
> 
> Industry issues are an interest of probably the majority of this forum. If there are nuances that make this industry radically different from every other industry out there, I think we would want to know. An informed consumer is also ultimately better for the market. Please, share them with us. I'll also note that animosity from the market is one of the (few) strengths the consumer has, and sometimes it is more than earned.


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## sandsman1 (Nov 20, 2007)

If all stores became "discounters" there would be a race to the bottom

i dont see it that way i would call it good old american competition and i dont think anyone would go so low that they would loose there biz there would of course be a bottom markup no one could go below if they wanted to keep the biz,, and i think finaly the consumer would see how much they have been getting ripped off all these years,, thats why they dont want anyone under cutting there prices i think the guys who have been hittin the consumer over the head all these years and are usta it cant stand to make a few dollers less also -- id callit greed but thats just my 2 cents --- sands


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## Deriffe (Jul 27, 2004)

Dang Jake, help a brother out. Bring some cookies to ******'s will ya? :dr


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## JDC20 (Feb 11, 2004)

sandsman1 said:


> If all stores became "discounters" there would be a race to the bottom
> 
> i dont see it that way i would call it good old american competition and i dont think anyone would go so low that they would loose there biz there would of course be a bottom markup no one could go below if they wanted to keep the biz,, and i think finaly the consumer would see how much they have been getting ripped off all these years,, thats why they dont want anyone under cutting there prices i think the guys who have been hittin the consumer over the head all these years and are usta it cant stand to make a few dollers less also -- id callit greed but thats just my 2 cents --- sands


If competition is kept unchecked, the market deteriorates to an oligopoly or monopoly, that is not good for the industry or the consumer.

This invisible floor you talk about would not exist due to so many substitutes in the market. If one of the last few standing wanted to sell a manufacturers cigars below cost to have a loss leader to draw customers and traffic to another brand or their own house brand there would be no stopping them.

Consumers getting ripped off for years? Are cigars shops selling, gasoline, milk, or bread? We are talking a luxury item that in reality no one needs!

Greed? Have you stopped in to your local (good) store lately? I don't know very many cigar shop owners getting rich from selling fermented tobacco. Most of them do it as a side job, doing it as a hobby, or are following a dream. You make these guys sound like Ma' Bell, or Standard Oil.


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## JDC20 (Feb 11, 2004)

Deriffe said:


> Dang Jake, help a brother out. Bring some cookies to ******'s will ya? :dr


Not a problem, gonna try to make it over on Monday. You gonna be around?


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## chupacabrah (Jan 2, 2008)

jdc20 said:


> I think it is safe to say that there has been a shift in the industry due to the online presences but it has not been at the same level as books, music, etc.


the music industry took a hit from the development of internet technologies and illegal pirating.... and that market has adjusted. it's that whole "invisible hand" thing, which has nothing to do with tradition and price fixing.

If a seller A can buy product 1 at $1, and seller B can buy the same product 1 at $2. Seller A can sell it for less than seller B can even buy it for....
Seller B naturally will complain because they cannot compete. that isn't the right way for competition to work in a free market system.

if seller A and B both buy for $1, but seller B has a higher overhead....then the problem is in their business model, and still shouldnt have anything to do with price fixing.

MY :2


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## RJT (Feb 12, 2005)

PM SENT....:tu


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## tccigar (Aug 15, 2007)

*CS,
My position here is clear. I am going to comply with Manufacturers demands. I respect the Manf. wishes on this matter. The owners of some of the most popular "boutique" brands are fine people that I really respect.
Most have been in my store several times and have supported me over the years. They are trying to protect their brands and I will respect the way they want to run their business.

Now, Taboo is my dream, I want to continue to build my vision of The Taboo Cigar Line. Those of you that have dreams can understand where I am coming from.

"Private business matter" my ass.
Consumers that purchase your cigars have every right to know the truth about why I am raising my prices. If they don't like it, they have a choice when they make their next purchase.

I have no plans to expose any Manufacturer names. The manufacturers in question here have been very good to me over the years. However, any Customer, Manufacturer or Retail Competitor that does not come to me man to man to discuss differences is not worth further discussion. If they are so concerned that I can effect their business from a small shop in Texas, then they truly have demons of their own to deal with.

Thanks CS
Rob
*


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## JDC20 (Feb 11, 2004)

tccigar said:


> *CS,
> My position here is clear. I am going to comply with Manufacturers demands. I respect the Manf. wishes on this matter. The owners of some of the most popular "boutique" brands are fine people that I really respect.
> Most have been in my store several times and have supported me over the years. They are trying to protect their brands and I will respect the way they want to run their business.
> 
> ...


I should have started my first post stating that I am in no way supporting the way your competitor dealt with the problem. I was just airing my opinions on the manufacturers side of the "price-fixing" or "arm-twisting" argument. We are a very small, close-knit industry and I this problem could have been dealt with in a different way.

On a side note, I have tried your Taboo cigars, and I gotta hand it to ya, you have one nice product. I wish you all the success in the world. I can tell you have spent a lot of time, sweat, and $, building this brand.

As a cigar smoker, we never can have too many good smokes!


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## mostholycerebus (Sep 24, 2006)

JDC20 said:


> Also many of the examples you gave are controlled by giant corporations that live and die by the almighty dollar. That doesn't necessarily happen with the cigar industry. Many families in the industry do this from tradition and family history, and not necessarily from a profit driven position that most corporation are dictated by.


That's basically irrelevent, because all hand rolled cigars are coming from the same type of manufacturing process. As no manufacturer has an economic/mechanical advantage over another (say, machine rolled, which doesn't count because they are a different market), it doesn't matter whether they are in the business for profit or "tradition".

Regardless, you are making excuses for participating in manuevers detrimental to the market, the consumer, and ultimately the manufacturers themselves. If a B&M cannot compete in price with an online because of overhead, they need to be forthright and ADMIT it. Let the consumer know, hey, you're paying for those couches, big walk-in humi, and a friendly place to smoke. THIS is where the cigar market is different: it is strictly a luxury, so a good percentage of consumers WILL pay more for the luxury of a B&M, or the "tradition" inherent in the higher-end brands. There IS no substitute for these things.

Cigar makers need to figure that out, trust their consumers, understand that the market has changed, and learn to market their goods properly instead of playing funny games with price fixing (by definition gouging, as its not set by the consumer).

BTW Oligopoly is the BEST form of market for the consumer, period. It weds the economies of scale of a monopoly (production cost reduction) with the competition (price reduction and innovation) of free-market. The only thing better is a non-predatory monopoly, though the only example I can cite is Windows, which is kept in check by the threat of govt intervention.

Suprised to see you're from Illinois too, the schools out here are usually HUGE on free(er)-market, invisible-hand, etc. What college did you study at?


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## sirxlaughs (Nov 18, 2005)

I have so far made one order with Taboo Cigars because of the insane deal that I could let myself pass up (thanks for the box and lighter). My second order will be coming very soon. I understand that manufacturers want to keep things even by enforcing MSRP's, but I wonder why they don't cut off suppliers that price gouge customers as well. It's also not very level if one retailer is buying from other retailers in an attempt to "hoarde" the more rare or collectible cigars, but that's a completely separate issue.
I think capitalism and competition is just that. Just like Wal-mart, Target, etc can do it, I don't see what the problem is here either. It's not as though Taboo has an infinite supply at his low prices. Eventually his allocated stock will run out, and people will have to shop elsewhere unless they want to wait.
Rob, thank you for the great cigars, great prices, and great service. I, and many others like me, look forward to doing business with you time and time again.


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## JDC20 (Feb 11, 2004)

mostholycerebus said:


> That's basically irrelevent, because all hand rolled cigars are coming from the same type of manufacturing process. As no manufacturer has an economic/mechanical advantage over another (say, machine rolled, which doesn't count because they are a different market), it doesn't matter whether they are in the business for profit or "tradition".





> Regardless, you are making excuses for participating in manuevers detrimental to the market, the consumer, and ultimately the manufacturers themselves. If a B&M cannot compete in price with an online because of overhead, they need to be forthright and ADMIT it. Let the consumer know, hey, you're paying for those couches, big walk-in humi, and a friendly place to smoke. THIS is where the cigar market is different: it is strictly a luxury, so a good percentage of consumers WILL pay more for the luxury of a B&M, or the "tradition" inherent in the higher-end brands. There IS no substitute for these things.


Protecting a brand, is in some way is manipulating the market, but it is not detrimental to the market or the manufacturer, in a luxury market. I am not sure if you can ever say a a Consumer is being harmed in a Luxury market. Rolex, MB, LVMH all have brand protection, it is no different in the cigar industry. How many discounted Mercedes Benz have you found? I have had a ton of people argue with me, but cigars are a Luxury item.

Many B&M stores do admit they cannot compete with online prices. The overhead of having a store is not the only added cost of their business model. State and local taxes that apply to B&M do not apply to online purchase. (yet) If they admit, hey your paying for the couches, humi, and camaraderie, are they also responsible for saying you live in IL and have an extra 18%? There is no level playing field.



> Cigar makers need to figure that out, trust their consumers, understand that the market has changed, and learn to market their goods properly instead of playing funny games with price fixing (by definition gouging, as its not set by the consumer).


Cigar Manufacturers are definitely aware of the ever changing market. I don't think that they need to "Learn" how to market their goods properly as every companies approach is different than the next. I don't think the gouging reference would apply to the manufacturers as the price they sell their product to their customers is set evenly across the board, (for the most part). The only price fixing aka MSRP they have is to protect their brands. I can understand that argument in regards to commodity items but I don't think it applies here.



> BTW Oligopoly is the BEST form of market for the consumer, period. It weds the economies of scale of a monopoly (production cost reduction) with the competition (price reduction and innovation) of free-market. The only thing better is a non-predatory monopoly, though the only example I can cite is Windows, which is kept in check by the threat of govt intervention.


I wasn't talking about a manufacturers oligopoly, but a sellers. So I guess I was talking about an oligopsonie for the manufacturers, where they have very few buyers in a market, which is not a position that some companies want to be in. I personally don't think it is good for a few people controlling an industry, I prefer smaller economies of scale and specialization to fend of a generalizing of the industry. So I guess I am saying the economy for the cigar industry would be a Oligonomy. While this could be a benefit for consumers, it is not a position the industry as whole would want.

And remember, I am coming from the side of the manufactuerers and not the consumer.



> Suprised to see you're from Illinois too, the schools out here are usually HUGE on free(er)-market, invisible-hand, etc. What college did you study at?


I studied at little old SIUE, with a year of independent study, focusing on Stiglers work on Government Intervention and as a thesis applied his work to the possibility of an internet sales tax.

How about you?


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## tccigar (Aug 15, 2007)

sirxlaughs said:


> I have so far made one order with Taboo Cigars because of the insane deal that I could let myself pass up (thanks for the box and lighter). My second order will be coming very soon. I understand that manufacturers want to keep things even by enforcing MSRP's, but I wonder why they don't cut off suppliers that price gouge customers as well. It's also not very level if one retailer is buying from other retailers in an attempt to "hoarde" the more rare or collectible cigars, but that's a completely separate issue.
> I think capitalism and competition is just that. Just like Wal-mart, Target, etc can do it, I don't see what the problem is here either. It's not as though Taboo has an infinite supply at his low prices. Eventually his allocated stock will run out, and people will have to shop elsewhere unless they want to wait.
> Rob, thank you for the great cigars, great prices, and great service. I, and many others like me, look forward to doing business with you time and time again.


"It's not as though Taboo has an infinite supply at his low prices. Eventually his allocated stock will run out, and people will have to shop elsewhere unless they want to wait."

Thank You Thank You
I want to thank everyone in this Thread. This has turned out to be very interesting.:ss


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## gnukfu (Dec 19, 2007)

Eek who let the economics majors/eceonomists in! If I see a supply and demand curve I will scream.  I'm at the caveman level - I like good cigars cheap, ugh.


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## neoflex (Jan 3, 2006)

My questions is simple and something I find interesting. A manufacturer will break a small guys chops for selling their product slightly below msrp but there are tons of vendors out there selling that same product way above msrp and many times double the msrp so why do the manufactures turn away at this practice but bust the balls of the very few who give the consumer a good deal?


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## DriftyGypsy (May 24, 2006)

neoflex said:


> My questions is simple and something I find interesting. A manufacturer will break a small guys chops for selling their product slightly below msrp but there are tons of vendors out there selling that same product way above msrp and many times double the msrp so why do the manufactures turn away at this practice but bust the balls of the very few who give the consumer a good deal?


They bust their chops because they claim they are under or de-valuing their product. They don't go after someone who is over valuing their product. Their goal is to sell cigars, there is a mystique about, lets say "Opus X" on "Anejos" so if you can get Sharks regularly for say $5.00 each or $8.00 each, they will lose their mystique. Scientists recently did a study on the cost of wine versus taste. People believe the more something costs the better it tastes. This could just as well apply to cigars, my $50.00 will taste a heck of a lot better than your $8.00 one. It has to because I paid more. That is why manufacturers do not like retailers discounting their product.


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## vintagejc (Oct 7, 2007)

I'm not buying the whole family pride argument. It's a buisness and trying to tell me that I should pay more to make a family feel better about themselves is crazy. I do think the families have a lot of pride but that's not what drives them to make cigars. It's survival and money. 

I do agree that cigars are a luxury item. They do operate somewhat outside of the normal ebb and flow. The manufactures can distribute and set prices how they see fit. 

That's why I appreciate what Rob is doing. He's saying, I'll play by your rules but only until I figure out a way to beat you. That's how awesome competition happens and how big companies either prove their point or give in. 

I for one love competition and I will support the little guy in this battle. Not because I have a real problem with the cigar industry but because it's going to shed some light on what the market can handle.

On a side note, where was this conversation in ECO1101 and 1102? I could have gotten an A for sure!!


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## Gizzy (Dec 27, 2007)

I'm no economy student but...

Manufacturer's and retailers who wants us to feel good/better by paying more for an item to maintain its image, the mystique or aura even if it is a luxury item can go pound sand.

Someone mentioned LVMH and Rolex... well if your gonna compare pricing tactics of mega-corporations to this so called "family type" business... then the family type doesn't really deserve the benefit of not being labeled a greedy corporation to a certain extent. 

Let them and their retailers be outed. Let the market determine if their trying to hang on to an outdated model of doing business. 
I mean come on even some of the Oldest and most respected wine retailers have Thriving e-commerce sites.. and alcohol laws are just as complicated and "taxy" as tobacco ones. To say a B&M cigar retailer somewhere can't set up a e-commerce site and expand(key word) their client base is just laughable in this day and age. If they can't maybe we just have to say it wasn't meant to be and let them FAIL.


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## SeanGAR (Jul 9, 2004)

DriftyGypsy said:


> Scientists recently did a study on the cost of wine versus taste. People believe the more something costs the better it tastes.


Oh, its a common enough error in sensory evaluation, we call it expectation error, but my own experience would show that people who give wines they believe are higher priced higher ratings are idiots and know nothing about wine.

My favorite wine costs about 11 bucks .. I have had many more expensive wines that I know the price of that I would rate much lower.


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## JDC20 (Feb 11, 2004)

Gizzy said:


> I'm no economy student but...
> 
> Manufacturer's and retailers who wants us to feel good/better by paying more for an item to maintain its image, the mystique or aura even if it is a luxury item can go pound sand.


Well that is your opinion, I have mine. My view was coming from the view of selling a product in a luxury market, your view is coming from your wallet, we'll agree to disagree.



> Someone mentioned LVMH and Rolex... well if your gonna compare pricing tactics of mega-corporations to this so called "family type" business... then the family type doesn't really deserve the benefit of not being labeled a greedy corporation to a certain extent.


You can label them whatever you want. While it is a family style business it is far from being UNICEF. The point I was trying to make was that some manufacturers are not in a position where they need to focus on expansive growth and that yes some can make their own rules, to the ire of some, but also the respect of many more.



> Let them and their retailers be outed. Let the market determine if their trying to hang on to an outdated model of doing business.
> I mean come on even some of the Oldest and most respected wine retailers have Thriving e-commerce sites.. and alcohol laws are just as complicated and "taxy" as tobacco ones. To say a B&M cigar retailer somewhere can't set up a e-commerce site and expand(key word) their client base is just laughable in this day and age. If they can't maybe we just have to say it wasn't meant to be and let them FAIL.


Let them be outed, I don't really care. This is why things like this shouldn't be in public forums. A lynch mob mentality evolves because a few people don't the corporate policy of a company. Can't you just smoke cigars to smoke cigars?

And as far as B&M opening up online sites, I agree that is a great idea. But there are hurdles in some state and municipalities, included but not limited too the states were the business are located require a record of all tobacco products shipped out of states and where as the destination states requiring e-tailers to inform them tobacco being shipped into their state. The state of Illinois sent out 22,000 sales and use tax letters last year for tobacco purchase due to requesting information from a few select online tobacco services. It is this type of information that scares a few of the B&M owners staying away from the online stuff.


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## DriftyGypsy (May 24, 2006)

SeanGAR said:


> My favorite wine costs about 11 bucks .. I have had many more expensive wines that I know the price of that I would rate much lower.


I had an Uncle who was all over this wine thing. "The Best wine is the one you are enjoying right now, hmmm... I guess we can transfer that to cigars."


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## chupacabrah (Jan 2, 2008)

jdc said:


> This is why things like this shouldn't be in public forums. A lynch mob mentality evolves because a few people don't the corporate policy of a company.


yeah...customers are too dumb to know what goes on, why do we even try to pay attention? I think we should always pay full price (at LEAST) for everything, and not ask any questions, especially about sketchy business practices.

/sarcasm

It makes sense to say they're practicing brand retention or whatever it is to preserve the brand name and quality, but that doesnt mean it isn't non-competitive price fixing. and saying that customers dont need to know what goes on goes against the rights of the people. At least in the US.

In my business, we have to report everything to the public whenever we make a transaction (like buying another company). we sell our products to other companies, who in turn integrate our stuff into whatever they make and sell it to the public. If this happened in my market, it would be ridiculous. given, it's not a luxury market, but still.

I think that's about 5 cents :sl


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## rx2010 (Jan 4, 2007)

DriftyGypsy said:


> Scientists recently did a study on the cost of wine versus taste. People believe the more something costs the better it tastes. This could just as well apply to cigars, my $50.00 will taste a heck of a lot better than your $8.00 one. It has to because I paid more. That is why manufacturers do not like retailers discounting their product.


funny, in herbals class the other day we were discussing the placebo effect.

the more money someone pays for an herbal product the more likely they are the believe it's working/has worked

paying more = better product :gn


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## JDC20 (Feb 11, 2004)

chupacabrah said:


> yeah...customers are too dumb to know what goes on, why do we even try to pay attention? I think we should always pay full price (at LEAST) for everything, and not ask any questions, especially about sketchy business practices.
> 
> /sarcasm
> 
> ...


Alright that one got me fired up.

Do you drink Budweiser? When you buy your beer to you wonder what type of agreement the vendor had to enter into to have that beer on the shelve.

When you go buy a steak, do you ask how much that cut of beef would be at the butcher shop?

Sketchy business practices? Where the hell is that coming from? Going against the people, do you take the time to learn the ins and outs of all the INDUSTRY of all of your hobbies, consumable goods, and services? The rights of people in the US, you have got to be joking, seriously you have to be. Do you follow the pricing structures of fast food companies or soft drink companies. How about the yacht industry, do you want to know their business practices as well.

The only reason you are even interested in this behavior is because it was a private matter brought up on a public forum, of one of your hobbies. Yes it is a hobby and I really do not understand how knowing the practices of a company effects your enjoyment of a cigar. It is beyond me.......


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## chupacabrah (Jan 2, 2008)

JDC20 said:


> Alright that one got me fired up.
> 
> Do you drink Budweiser? When you buy your beer to you wonder what type of agreement the vendor had to enter into to have that beer on the shelve.
> 
> ...


easy there compadre.

it doesnt affect the enjoyment of a cigar, but I won't be buying a cigar from any place that is overcharging for it, especially when the same cigar is less expensive somewhere else ( aside from a local B&M, for reasons already mentioned).

do you really think if one wendy's was overstocked with chicken sandwiches , and decided to sell them for $2 off the regular price that other wendy's would call the big wendys and cut off the supply? it sounds bogus.

and yes, i believe the consumers have the right to know whatever they want to know, outside of confidentiality. which this pricing practice isnt exactly that.

I'll digress and leave you to your opinion, and I will keep mine. 
I don't care as long as there are still retailers selling cigars at less than MSRP.

and I think I'll go by my B&M today.

and I do apologize for riling you up

cheers.


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## JDC20 (Feb 11, 2004)

chupacabrah said:


> easy there compadre.
> 
> it doesnt affect the enjoyment of a cigar, but I won't be buying a cigar from any place that is overcharging for it.


Overcharging to you is not the same to someone else.



> do you really think if one wendy's was overstocked with chicken sandwiches , and decided to sell them for $2 off the regular price that other wendy's would call the big wendys and cut off the supply? it sounds bogus.


Nope, first off the other little wendy's wouldn't care, but the little Macdonalds and BK's would, probably leading them to drop their chicken sandwich $2. (Maybe MCD and BK would call the chicken farm and hassle the farmer thinking that Wendy was getting a better deal.) Thus the race to the bottom started. ( The arguments doesn't lend itself well to a luxury item but I play along anyways cause I love Chicken Sandwiches ! :ss)



> and yes, i believe the consumers have the right to know whatever they want to know, outside of confidentiality. which this pricing practice isnt exactly that.


What other industry pricing structures are you interested in? I got tons of papers here from corporate and industry policy, structure, and strategy gathering dust in the attic. You should take a look at some of the Cigarette companies plans, there a doozy!

My point being I don't know why a consumer would care about a manufacturers business model or how they protect their company, or put them under more scrutiny than any other industry that consumers takes a place in.


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## vintagejc (Oct 7, 2007)

> My point being I don't know why a consumer would care about a manufacturers business model or how they protect their company, or put them under more scrutiny than any other industry that consumers takes a place in.


Um, because this is a cigar discussion board. You should see the people over at the chicken sandwich boards, they are really pissed at BK for talking to the chicken farmer about Wendey's.


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## JDC20 (Feb 11, 2004)

vintagejc said:


> Um, because this is a cigar discussion board. You should see the people over at the chicken sandwich boards, they are really pissed at BK for talking to the chicken farmer about Wendey's.


Oh, well see I was under the impression these were boards for cigar Enthusiast, not policy review boards for cigar manufactures. They must have changed since I joined years ago. :chk :ss


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## chupacabrah (Jan 2, 2008)

vintagejc said:


> Um, because this is a cigar discussion board. You should see the people over at the chicken sandwich boards, they are really pissed at BK for talking to the chicken farmer about Wendey's.


:r

and yeah JDC, I just like knowing things, I guess. price models and all. being an enthusiast in a hobby to me is more than just smoking the cigars. we like to know what's goin on, esp when it could affect us (ie. pricing).

naturally the business is the way it is, but we can still bitch about it.


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## glking (Jul 20, 2007)

OK, I gotta throw in my :2.

I could care less about what business model someone is using, or what image they are trying to sell.

What really pisses me off, is that *one of our own members* is intentionally and malicioulsy trying to harm the business of another member.

Legal or not, that is just wrong in my book.


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## DBall (Jun 4, 2007)

JDC20 said:


> My point being I don't know why a consumer would care about a manufacturers business model or how they protect their company, or put them under more scrutiny than any other industry that consumers takes a place in.


I don't much care about business models. I would like to get good deals on cigars. Rob is apparently providing those. From my perspective, other retailers are crying because they make less profit on cigars/sell less because they can't keep up with his sale prices, so they go and tell daddy that Rob is being a big meanie.

Why do we as consumers take an interest...? Because we buy cigars.


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## sirxlaughs (Nov 18, 2005)

JDC20 said:


> Alright that one got me fired up.
> 
> Do you drink Budweiser? When you buy your beer to you wonder what type of agreement the vendor had to enter into to have that beer on the shelve.
> 
> ...


I don't know much about business or economics, but I can't help but respond to this. I really don't want to add more fuel to the fire since the original topic has already been resolved. Rob said most of what he wanted to say, and decided on a course of action.
I'm responding the beer and steak comments.
When I buy brand X beer at a super-market, I don't care what contract the super has with that brand. I just know my beer is going to cost me what that particular market charges. What I do know is that different supermarkets will charge slightly different prices at times. Whether there is a sale, and they just have daily "low low prices". Another thing that I know, is that I don't hear about competing supermarkets calling up beer companies complaining about price competition. So, this analogy doesn't really work.
I also know that if I go to a fancy bar, I'll easily pay 3x or more for that beer.

On to the steaks. If I go to a fancy steakhouse (which I love), I generally pay 40 dollars for a dry-aged, prime steak. I don't care where that steak came from, as long as it's delicious. If I go to another fancy steakhouse, and 40 dollars for a similar (this is where the analogy goes moot) steak, I expect it to be similarly delicious. If it turns out the steak is terrible, I might start to wonder what kind of steak I was actually fed, and why I just paid the same price for an inferior product. Then, maybe I go to yet another steakhouse, and pay 30 dollars for a marvelous steak. Now, I'm happy that I got a great steak for a lesser price. If the first and second steakhouses start complaining to their butcher about how the third is lowering the price on it's steak, it becomes a silly thing. I would have less respect for those other steakhouses. But it's not such a simple issue as undercutting competitors. Maybe the third steakhouse pays less rent, taxes, overhead, etc. and can afford a lower priced steak. Maybe the first two steakhouses have lavish interiors, live music, and any other luxury you want to imagine. 
Selling a product at a lower cost does not necessarily devalue it. If the iPhone's price dropped to $20, I'm sure they would fly off shelves and it's consumer value, as well as Apple's value, would not deteriorate. 
You made a comment about Mercedes. You do not get discounts on Mercedes' vehicles at their dealerships, just as I would not expect to get a discount on a Padron cigar at the Padron home store in Florida. If I go to some regular dealership that deals in multiple vehicles, I can haggle on anything I want. It all depends on the demand. Mercedes dealerships have no problems moving their cars. There is no incentive for them to give Joe Shmo a lower price just b/c he can't afford the full price. They'll just sell to the next guy. A dealership that deals in multiple vehicles might have trouble moving certain cars depending on the demographic and such, and might be more inclined to offer discounted prices. I doubt the big dealerships would complain and have the little guy put on notice.

When it's about protecting manufacturers, businesses, and consumers, it seems like a fair thing to do. When it becomes petty bickering and looks like someone is just "picking on the little guy," it no longer seems like fair practice. There are many things that are legal, but not "fair."

Like I said in the beginning, I'm not an ecomonics or business buff. It just seems odd that a small shop like Rob's, given his limited inventory, would get called out like this. The big retailers will never be toppelled by something like this. If it were that easy, there would only be Ebay stores everywhere.


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## JDC20 (Feb 11, 2004)

sirxlaughs said:


> Another thing that I know, is that I don't hear about competing supermarkets calling up beer companies complaining about price competition. So, this analogy doesn't really work..


The reason you don't hear those things is because they are not discussed publicly, they are kept private. Believe me it happens. Your are not given the insight into that market to make an assumption either way.



> On to the steaks. If I go to a fancy steakhouse (which I love), I generally pay 40 dollars for a dry-aged, prime steak. I don't care where that steak came from, as long as it's delicious. If I go to another fancy steakhouse, and 40 dollars for a similar (this is where the analogy goes moot) steak, I expect it to be similarly delicious. If it turns out the steak is terrible, I might start to wonder what kind of steak I was actually fed, and why I just paid the same price for an inferior product. Then, maybe I go to yet another steakhouse, and pay 30 dollars for a marvelous steak. .


On this example your a talking about substitues. They are not the same steak, think of them as different brands.



> A dealership that deals in multiple vehicles might have trouble moving certain cars depending on the demographic and such, and might be more inclined to offer discounted prices. I doubt the big dealerships would complain and have the little guy put on notice. .


If the small dealer is having problems selling a mercedes in the portfolio, maybe the should reconsider selling Mercedes at all.



> When it's about protecting manufacturers, businesses, and consumers, it seems like a fair thing to do. When it becomes petty bickering and looks like someone is just "picking on the little guy," it no longer seems like fair practice. There are many things that are legal, but not "fair."


Its not picking on the little guy, it is leveling the playing field for everyone, big and small. If the big guys see the little guys getting away with it, they will try it as well, and as stated before, manufactueres do not want that to happen, so everyone plays by the same rules.


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## ssutton219 (Apr 17, 2007)

Its not picking on the little guy, it is leveling the playing field for everyone, big and small. If the big guys see the little guys getting away with it, they will try it as well, and as stated before, manufactueres do not want that to happen, so everyone plays by the same rules.[/quote]

OK..now you are contradicting yourself here...if CI/Cbid and such can sell what they want how they want with out other companies calling foul and complaining because they have a different deal then who is to say Rob doesnt also??

The point of this thread was to ask for OUR opinion on this situation..now if you get ripped off by any company you are not going to do business with them, as if a friend or family member ripped off by a company you will tell everyone you know and you too will stop business with them. same thought here a friend of mine was treated unfairly I do not want to business with a company that has to resort to these actions. I honestly do not care what the manufacture wants a retailer to do to maintain his product, thats between a retailer and the manufacture..I want a good cigar from a good place that I feel as I am more than a customer and reading about Rob and his cigar thats who will receive my money.

Shawn


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## SMcGregor (Dec 4, 2006)

Hey make that 2 new Customers I made my 1st purchase yesterday as well and I can tell you it wasn't any other brand other then the Taboo line! I can't wait to try them out!

Thanks for the help yesterday Rob..

Shawn McGregor



Hawk6815 said:


> Well good luck with making all your competition happy.
> 
> At any rate, I just placed my first order with you online, and plan to place many more in the future. So if nothing else, this has brought you a new customer.
> 
> Will


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## butterbeezy (Sep 12, 2007)

Lets all leave Mr. Eco Major alone, no matter what we say he's gonna argue it. Bottom line is, I want what i want at a cheaper price. I'm gonna buy my Budweiser at Safeway this week cause a sixer is $2 cheaper. I'm gonna buy so & so's CD at Best Buy cause it's $9.99, I'm gonna buy smokes from Taboo, cause it's CHEAPER. I can give a monkey's ass on what the manufacter thinks. Last i checked money doesn't grow on trees and rat heads get nothing but cheese. :chk


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## sirxlaughs (Nov 18, 2005)

JDC20 said:


> The reason you don't hear those things is because they are not discussed publicly, they are kept private. Believe me it happens. Your are not given the insight into that market to make an assumption either way.


I did not say they did not happen. That's why I said that all I know is that I don't hear about it. I know nothing else. No assumptions. If it happens, it happens. I don't see supermarkets stopping their sales, or running out of stock.
When a manufacturer decides to limit stock availability to a retailer, it usually does make it into the news (not necessarily Fox News). Just like Nintendo's strongarm tactics are well known. It is common knowledge for video gamers that Nintendo limits supplies to retailers that go below MSRP. 
If a big brand like Budweiser started doing something similar, I'm sure somebody somewhere would find out about it, and find a way to inform the masses.



JDC20 said:


> On this example your a talking about substitues. They are not the same steak, think of them as different brands.


A cigar from the same brand is not made from the same plant, or the same leaf. It is the same breed of plant, just like the steak would be the same breed of cow, and same cut.



JDC20 said:


> If the small dealer is having problems selling a mercedes in the portfolio, maybe the should reconsider selling Mercedes at all.


Why should he stop selling them, if he can move enough of them to turn a profit at a lower price? In other words, if someone can't compete in a certain market, he should perhaps persue other ventures, yes? The same should apply with cigars. If someone can't compete with a certain brand, then don't sell that brand.



JDC20 said:


> Its not picking on the little guy, it is leveling the playing field for everyone, big and small. If the big guys see the little guys getting away with it, they will try it as well, and as stated before, manufactueres do not want that to happen, so everyone plays by the same rules.


The big guys do try it. Wal-mart is the most obvious example. Business is not a game with a level playing field. Sales seems to be a cut-throat industry with stronger, smarter, and more devious usually ending up on top. If the big guys want to do it. Let them. That's their decision. 
The really odd thing, is that Rob's prices on certain cigars that go "on sale" are not the lowest I've seen on the internet. There are quite a few internet retailers selling at similar prices regularly (without the need for sales or coupons). He just advertised it, and caught the attention of the wrong people, I guess.


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## DBall (Jun 4, 2007)

butterbeezy said:


> Lets all leave Mr. Eco Major alone, no matter what we say he's gonna argue it. Bottom line is, I want what i want at a cheaper price. I'm gonna buy my Budweiser at Safeway this week cause a sixer is $2 cheaper. I'm gonna buy so & so's CD at Best Buy cause it's $9.99, I'm gonna buy smokes from Taboo, cause it's CHEAPER. I can give a monkey's ass on what the manufacter thinks. Last i checked money doesn't grow on trees and rat heads get nothing but cheese. :chk


:tpd: Can I get a what-what?


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## JDC20 (Feb 11, 2004)

ssutton219 said:


> Its not picking on the little guy, it is leveling the playing field for everyone, big and small. If the big guys see the little guys getting away with it, they will try it as well, and as stated before, manufactueres do not want that to happen, so everyone plays by the same rules.





> OK..now you are contradicting yourself here...if CI/Cbid and such can sell what they want how they want with out other companies calling foul and complaining because they have a different deal then who is to say Rob doesnt also??.


I can not comment on CI/Cigarbid as the company I work for doesn't cut them deals other manufactutrers may or may not. That is another one of those industry issues that should be dealt with behind closed doors if someone has an issue. I have no contradiction in that statement.



> The point of this thread was to ask for OUR opinion on this situation..now if you get ripped off by any company you are not going to do business with them, as if a friend or family member ripped off by a company you will tell everyone you know and you too will stop business with them. same thought here a friend of mine was treated unfairly I do not want to business with a company that has to resort to these actions. I honestly do not care what the manufacture wants a retailer to do to maintain his product, thats between a retailer and the manufacture..I want a good cigar from a good place that I feel as I am more than a customer and reading about Rob and his cigar thats who will receive my money. .


Your definition of "ripped-off" and my definition are contrary to each other. Remeber, vote with your dollars.


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## tccigar (Aug 15, 2007)

tccigar said:


> * However, any Customer, Manufacturer or Retail Competitor that does not come to me man to man to discuss differences is not worth further discussion. If they are so concerned that I can effect their business from a small shop in Texas, then they truly have demons of their own to deal with.
> 
> Thanks CS
> Rob
> *


I just wanted to make sure someone currently looking at this Thread sees this. Worry about your own business and not mine.


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## tccigar (Aug 15, 2007)

tccigar said:


> I just wanted to make sure someone currently looking at this Thread sees this. Worry about your own business and not mine.


Crap! He's not there now....oh well......................The Rat logged off.
I'm thinking of exposing the Rat but not any Manf. Names that "price fix". I still need to think about it for a while. I want to see how things our with my suppliers first.

thanks to all that support Taboo Cigars
Rob


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## JDC20 (Feb 11, 2004)

butterbeezy said:


> Lets all leave Mr. Eco Major alone, no matter what we say he's gonna argue it. Bottom line is, I want what i want at a cheaper price. I'm gonna buy my Budweiser at Safeway this week cause a sixer is $2 cheaper. I'm gonna buy so & so's CD at Best Buy cause it's $9.99, I'm gonna buy smokes from Taboo, cause it's CHEAPER. I can give a monkey's ass on what the manufacter thinks. Last i checked money doesn't grow on trees and rat heads get nothing but cheese. :chk


Sounds like my work here is done, ruffled enough feathers. :chk I just love to argue I guess.....

As a consumer look for the best deal. My points were only raised as a contrary viewpoint and to explain the reasons some companies may or may not takes steps to protect thier brands. 

Happy smoking!


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## mdtaggart (Sep 22, 2006)

So if "cigar retailer X" wants to sell some cigars cheaper to attract customers, is that a bad thing? So what if "cigar retailer X" wants to sell, let's say a Padron 80th for a dollar and and take the loss, so he will build traffic and loyalty and turn around sell his customers some "stogie X".
Loss leaders have been a part of retail for many many years. 
I am curious to know, if the rules for retailers are presented up front by the manufacturers and if every retailer gets the same treatment?
If a retailer was informed before he ordered from the manufacturer that the price he charges is set by the manufacturer, then it may be far game. Maybe! :ss


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## tccigar (Aug 15, 2007)

*I think the Rat here should be man enough to expose himself and why he turned me in......................what do you guys think?

how does a little shop down in Texas hurt him?? (way up north there where it is very cold right now) burrrrrrrrrrrr..... *

missed the sucker again!!!!!!!!! I hope he logs back on.....He needs to explain to the CS Family why he would Rat on a fellow CS Member that was just having a SALE?

Hell, I can find 100 websites with prices lower than my "Sale". Might be OUT OF STOCK or Poor Customer Service, but they still have the price up there.


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## glking (Jul 20, 2007)

*Agreed!:tpd:*


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## mdtaggart (Sep 22, 2006)

tccigar said:


> *I think the Rat here should be man enough to expose himself and why he turned me on......................what do you guys think?
> 
> how does a little shop down in Texas hurt him?? (way up north there where it is very cold right now) burrrrrrrrrrrr..... *
> 
> missed the sucker again!!!!!!!!! I hope he logs back on.....He needs to explain to the CS Family why he would Rat on a fellow CS Member?


No exposing yourself is allowed in CS, even if it turns u on!

Sorry, just playin, tryin to bring in a little levity. :ss Please don't kick my A.S.S. herf. :ss


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## tccigar (Aug 15, 2007)

mdtaggart said:


> No exposing yourself is allowed in CS, even if it turns u on!
> 
> Sorry, just playin, tryin to bring in a little levity. :ss Please don't kick my A.S.S. herf. :ss


You made me think I made an error there for a minute!:ss
funny


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## Tapewormboy (Apr 18, 2006)

Unfortunately I have seen this play out on another cigar forum. Great vendor has good prices and even better service, jealous competition reports great vendor to manufacturer, etc etc.

The final outcome was that the forum owner caught wind of the tattle-tale and booted him permanently off the forum.

I'm just a regular customer/consumer, so obviously I speak from that perspective. Goddamn it, give me the best prices without sacrificing quality and service!!! 

Rob, I hope everything works out for you.



tccigar said:


> *I think the Rat here should be man enough to expose himself and why he turned me in......................what do you guys think?
> 
> how does a little shop down in Texas hurt him?? (way up north there where it is very cold right now) burrrrrrrrrrrr..... *
> 
> ...


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## tccigar (Aug 15, 2007)

Tapewormboy said:


> Unfortunately I have seen this play out on another cigar forum. Great vendor has good prices and even better service, jealous competition reports great vendor to manufacturer, etc etc.
> 
> The final outcome was that the forum owner caught wind of the tattle-tale and booted him permanently off the forum.
> 
> ...


Everything looks like it is going to be fine. I spoke with one of the main Manunfacterers today that I was concerned about. Everything should be the same with the rest of them as long as I comply. Because I do respect their wishes, Business should continue as usual. If it does not, CS will be the first to know! They have been good about giving "warnings".

A few of the wise Gorillas on here were able to guess the Rat. I will not disclose the Rat in a Public Forum. I have better things to do than start a "Rat" thread!:tu

I appreciate all the advice both public and by pm. It was overwhelming and I have not been able to reply to all the pm's but I will try very soon.

CS has been a blessing to me because of all of you.

thank you
Rob


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## CigarMonkel (Jan 7, 2008)

when this is all done we should all got lite up a nice cigar. or maybe we should all ban together to make one massive end of the world bomb and send it to Rob. 

Whats funny about this whole situation is, the "RAT" probably BOOMED the living :BS out of his business. So many people bought from him over the past week due to this thread in support of him. So if anything we should probably be thanking the "RAT" for all this while we continue to not buy from him. He not only hurt his business but helped the person he was trying to get at. :r see what you get for being a little kid and running to mommy or daddy and snitching? :chk


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## mdtaggart (Sep 22, 2006)

Is this him?


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## str8edg (Dec 30, 2007)

I just read this from the OP... 

Rob I am glad you figured out your issue... I still plan on ordering from you I just got to find the time to make a phone call.

Other than the issues that caused this thread, it was very eye opening. 

My two cents... I don't have a B&M anywhere near me. If I did I would shop there for sure... I am sure I would buy the bulk of my sticks online BUT I would spend X% at the B&M... go in sit a herf with the boys (and girls).. that is why I would pay a premium for the smokes, the extra service. BUT for just buying cigars... price is #1, well customer service is almost #1. I have no problem with paying a few extra dollars to get good service.

Anyway, Rob sorry this happened to you.... but thank you for the thread, it was a good read!


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## mostholycerebus (Sep 24, 2006)

JDC20 said:


> I studied at little old SIUE, with a year of independent study, focusing on Stiglers work on Government Intervention and as a thesis applied his work to the possibility of an internet sales tax.
> 
> How about you?


BS from Lewis University. Was doing a study on labor unions, but said **** it and just took Corp Finance instead. :tg


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## Bear (Sep 22, 2007)

I certainly don't pretend to know the ins and outs of the cigar industry. I do know that I like getting the very best possible deal for any product I'm purchasing.

<O</OHere's what I'm finding most interesting about this thread and I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned in any of the previous posts.

<O</O*Can anyone else believe that Rob's business practices are being put under the microscope for advertising his great prices on OUR on-line cigar forum?*

I really enjoy the camaraderie here on CS, but I guess I never though that our collective buying power can "rock the boat" this much. It makes me wonder why there are only 2 cigar manufacturers in the "meet the manufacturers" section.

<O</OIt really burns me to know that a member / retailer has had to stoop to this level to try to protect his business, but I guess he has a mortgage payment to make too... (I am NOT however defending this cowardly method as a way to try to protect his business though)

<O</OThis thread has been quite the read and it blows my mind that Rob's business (and his partnership with us here on CS) is attracting this much attention within the industry that "corrective measures" are being threatened.

<O</OWho knew?<O</O


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## mostholycerebus (Sep 24, 2006)

Hell, just the members that voted here account for well over $25,000 a MONTH. I'm sure that's just a fraction of what this forum spends, and of course CS influences any number of lurkers, as well as a huge number of google searches.


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## Pendaboot (Jan 2, 2008)

In my business I have a similar problem The suppliers set prices that all retailers must follow. But I am a little guy who wants to break in. The fact that I give better service or user experience does not attract new customers, but price does. So, what to do.

I give out coupons, freely. That breaks the price down to what I wish to sell for. So, the studios are happy, they see their product on my website for the same price as everybody sells for. My customers get a deal. Whenever they want to buy, they just come to my other website and get a coupon. Everybody is happy. So far.


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## Tapewormboy (Apr 18, 2006)

Bear said:


> <O</O*Can anyone else believe that Rob's business practices are being put under the microscope for advertising his great prices on OUR on-line cigar forum?*


I can, it's happened on other cigar forums and this won't be the last time. The owner of the other board was proactive and banned the offending vendor. It's too bad that only a few months later the exact same thing happened here.

IMO, this sort of thing just destroys the spirit of friendly online forums. If your end-goal of being a member here is about your bottom line and making sales, then I say GTFO. If you actually want to be a fellow cigar enthusiast and share your experiences in this hobby, that's exactly what it's all about even if you are a vendor. I don't believe that the roles are set in stone here; if you are a vendor, you don't have to just have specials, you can also participate in lively discussion.

I'm curiously excited to see how the owner/mods of this board handle the situation here.


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## tccigar (Aug 15, 2007)

*Please no more PM's OR phone calls asking about who the "rat" was.

I know some of you were as upset about this I was. I popped off and said some things I should not have said near the end of this thread. Sorry. I get a little hostile when I work 19hrs/day and run on 3-4hrs of sleep. I'm sure some of you can understand that. This matter is over and I wish to move on. I will still enjoy reading any new replies giving your opinion on this matter. We should all forgive the Rat and continue to enjoy the people that make up this wonderful CS Family.

There are some real Brains on here! I love reading your posts!
**I appreciate all the advice and support in this tread and via PM's.

This has been a very good read.

Back to business
thanks
Rob
*


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## gnukfu (Dec 19, 2007)

:cp


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