# Supreme Court throws out Maine law



## Virginia Gent (Jan 1, 2008)

The U.S. Supreme Court has tossed out a state law taxing internet tobacco sales and making UPS, etc. their de facto tax agents.

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/TECH/02/20/scotus.internet.tobacco/

I especially like this line:

"Under the law, carriers were required to inspect every package containing tobacco headed for Maine, facing liability if they negligently or knowingly allowed minors to obtain the products through unlicensed retailers, based on a list from the state attorney general's office."


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## ShaulWolf (Feb 5, 2007)

I've noticed that in just about every article I've read no one ever says anything about parents. Why is it UPS' or Federal Express' job to make sure kids aren't doing what they're not supposed to do? Isn't that what parents are supposed to be for? Yes, it'd be nice if we could make sure kids aren't doing something wrong by making it difficult for them to do it, but if parents actually did their job and _parented_ the state and federal government probably wouldn't have the need to step in with restrictive laws. Sadly, this doesn't just go for tobacco, but with damn near everything involving kids in the news. Violence, drugs, sex, etc. Same s**t, different variation.


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## Silky01 (Jul 16, 2007)

ShaulWolf said:


> I've noticed that in just about every article I've read no one ever says anything about parents. Sadly, this doesn't just go for tobacco, but with damn near everything involving kids in the news. Violence, drugs, sex, etc. Same s**t, different variation.


:tpd::tu


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

Parents are less & less responsible for children; the State is. This is the mentality of Communist regimes where the child is the State property and responsibility, not the parents. It's sad trend we are seeing in USA with everyone trying to duck out of parenting and relying on the State to do their parenting.


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## Sergeant Smoky (Aug 28, 2007)

mosesbotbol said:


> Parents are less & less responsible for children; the State is. This is the mentality of Communist regimes where the child is the State property and responsibility, not the parents. It's sad trend we are seeing in USA with everyone trying to duck out of parenting and relying on the State to do their parenting.


IMHO the reason is all the laws against the parents. True there are some parents that cross the line, but there are many that don't. Those that don't are afraid to discipline their children because of fear of criminal action. For my example, I spanked my child, with my hand, for pushing a teacher at school and left handprint on his bottom. that evening he had a counseling session and told his therapist. She called CPS and that night detectives were at my house to take my child. None of this would have happened if I would not try to discipline my child in the same manner I was raised. So I would blame more of the justice system for the decay of children's morals.


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

Sergeant Smoky said:


> IMHO the reason is all the laws against the parents.


Just like in Communist countries... If you hit/spank a child in those countries, the Government comes down hard on the parents. The Government "owns" the children on those countries, but the end result is still the same as what is going on here.

I remember as young schoolboy be scared of the principal's "old hickory" spanking stick. No one wanted to get out of line get spanked by that thing... He would be locked up these days and the school would be sued...


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## ShaulWolf (Feb 5, 2007)

Holy crap, so I'm not the only one who still believes in spanking? I learned some of the best lessons when my dad tanned my hide, mainly because I was too stubborn to learn any other way. Did it once, tried to figure a way around it getting spanked. The second time was a definite not to do it again. When I grew up some more I figured out why I shouldn't have done it and that I deserved the spanking. A lot of kids I see now wouldn't have a clue about what I'm talking about. Mommy and daddy would _never_ do that! [/rant]


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## Tredegar (Nov 27, 2007)

Corporal punishment still exists in Louisiana schools. :ss

The quality of education leaves something to be desired however.


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## gnukfu (Dec 19, 2007)

My mother had a paddle reserved for each of her 3 kids. She would smack us on the bottom if we deserved it and we usually did. We all turned out fine, more than fine IMO. We were over her house the other day and found the paddles. Mine was split lengthwise down the middle due to amount of usage according to my brother and sister. :tu I told them that since I was the oldest I had to set the example so I took a lot of their punishment. Anyway, that was the 60's and today she would be probably be in jail for child abuse.

I won't even get into the Roman Catholic grade school principal's office that was well stocked with paddles (and permission to use them by the parents).


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## Silound (May 22, 2007)

I *almost* agree with you there....*almost*.

The bigger problem is that it's increasingly difficult to prevent something like a 16 year old buying tobacco online when they can go as far as ordering it at school, or any public location that offers free 'net.

Joe's kid has a laptop, and uses it at Starbucks one afternoon to buy cigars or smut. Is that honestly Joe's fault that there are simply more ways to circumvent the prevention than there are to prevent the circumvention? When I was 16 there was plenty opportunity for me to go take my cash, buy a MO and mail off an order for smut or cigars to be delivered somewhere where either it was safe, or where I could get to it before an adult did.

The best Joe can do is monitor for suspicious activity or inspect packages arriving for his kid or sniff the kid for smoke or worse, have the kid literally hate him for life and search their room. Obviously, the kid will have a multitude of ways to get around revealing his age to anyone who would be checking, and there are a million ways that the kid can have the package delivered and keep it away from the parental knowledge. And there are plenty of way to keep it safe even around a house where there are two adults.

Trust me, my parents were fanatics when I was a kid, and I still surprise them years later today when I reveal old secrets that I used to get around them. They would have had to keep me under 24 hour video surveillance to track me. The difference is that they gave me a level of trust, and I didn't abuse it beyond the normal youthful limits.

There's a major level of irresponsibility on all ends of the spectrum...most businesses do not bother calling to confirm orders for cigars to make sure the buyer is who he/she says they are. Most carriers, despite legal requirements, do no even bother to have someone sign for a package, _much less someone who is a legal adult_; they just drop them off at the door or apt office. I won't even bother going further than to say they sure as hell don't ID you when they drop off a package (I can sign my name Fidel Castro and they don't care if I am who I am, or if I am who I should be).

If you want to start assessing blame, the _first_ place to start reforms would be in the order/processing/shipping phases. _After_ that, _then_ start looking at how responsible parents are being about letting kids slip through the gaps.

There comes, however, a point that you have to embrace the fact that the tighter you grip, the more that squeezes past, and to embrace a more open way of representing the matter so that it seems far more undesirable and far less taboo (anything taboo is a given that young people will explore).



ShaulWolf said:


> I've noticed that in just about every article I've read no one ever says anything about parents. Why is it UPS' or Federal Express' job to make sure kids aren't doing what they're not supposed to do? Isn't that what parents are supposed to be for? Yes, it'd be nice if we could make sure kids aren't doing something wrong by making it difficult for them to do it, but if parents actually did their job and _parented_ the state and federal government probably wouldn't have the need to step in with restrictive laws. Sadly, this doesn't just go for tobacco, but with damn near everything involving kids in the news. Violence, drugs, sex, etc. Same s**t, different variation.


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## ShaulWolf (Feb 5, 2007)

I'll agree with you that parents can only do so much. I'll also agree that the retailer needs to confirm that they are, in fact, selling their products to adults. I'll have to say I was in rant mode from reading articles that show kids smoking and blaming everyone else, parents blaming everyone else, and a few robberies and murders I read about in the papers where the blame went to anyone but the parents and kids.

For me as far as smoking goes, I didn't start until sophomore year of college, two years ago. My parents made sure I knew the dangers of smoking and trusted me to decide on my own. They instilled values and made sure I was informed about whatever vices I was curious about whether it be smoking, drinking, weed, etc. For the most part I grew up to be a pretty good kid, save for a few idiotic episodes. I know I'd have done a lot worse, though, if I didn't have those values and knowledge that my parents gave me. The guys on my high school lacrosse team, for example, were complete idiots. Parents didn't do much with them as far as I remember since they had parties every weekend getting drunk and high. The few times I went to those parties the only people around were the guys on my team and whatever skanky girl they could get. I just sat back, watched, but didn't touch the crap.

That's what I mean by parents taking responsibility. The retailer should make sure that they're selling their product to someone of age. The shipper should make sure that procedure is followed and that the package is given to the right person, and if their policy is to make sure they're of legal age as well then they should do that. I think the parent, however, should be instilling the values and knowledge that would help the kid make the decision against doing whatever. I know full well kids screw up. I had a few big ones myself. But I also know that I'd have done a lot worse if it weren't for my parents watching out for me.


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## bmwe28m5 (Sep 14, 2007)

Virginia Gent said:


> The U.S. Supreme Court has tossed out a state law taxing internet tobacco sales and making UPS, etc. their de facto tax agents.
> 
> http://edition.cnn.com/2008/TECH/02/20/scotus.internet.tobacco/
> 
> ...


The case had issues of federal police power and pre-emption clauses, which is far more important to the SCOTUS than common carriers' liability, although common carriers have a pretty sweet lobby and clout in DC.


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## bobarian (Oct 1, 2007)

Its interesting how a comment on Smoking Laws can turn into a comparison of democratic and communist politics. There are only two semi-communist countries left in the world(Cuba and China). North Korea is a military dictatorship and Russia is basically an enhance criminal enterprise. To blame the current problems in the US on the "Communist's" is taking a myopic view of the world. 

Parenting in the 21st century has taken a back seat.

Many parents are more concerned with there own pleasures than raising good children. Making FedEx and UPS drivers Revenue agents is not the answer. But when Johnny or Sally can order prescription drugs, alcohol or tobacco over the internet. Someone needs to be accountable. :2


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## TanZ2005 (Jun 25, 2006)

I have been trying to say something for some time. And now I am make it short and sweet. WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO OUR AMERICAN RIGHTS????

James


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## ssutton219 (Apr 17, 2007)

Sergeant Smoky said:


> IMHO the reason is all the laws against the parents. True there are some parents that cross the line, but there are many that don't. Those that don't are afraid to discipline their children because of fear of criminal action. For my example, I spanked my child, with my hand, for pushing a teacher at school and left handprint on his bottom. that evening he had a counseling session and told his therapist. She called CPS and that night detectives were at my house to take my child. None of this would have happened if I would not try to discipline my child in the same manner I was raised. So I would blame more of the justice system for the decay of children's morals.


I feel for ya.....My stepdaughter made up abuse and had all our children removed...cost us an attorney and missed work even after she recanted the story. Kids don't get it and some people out there want to be a hero no matter the story. I agree the parents need to be watching out but with the way the world looks at it now its abuse and we might hurt the child's self esteem.

Back on topic I think its great that the law was thrown out...sets a precedent for future laws.

Shawn


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## ahbroody (Mar 24, 2008)

bmwe28m5 said:


> The case had issues of federal police power and pre-emption clauses, which is far more important to the SCOTUS than common carriers' liability, although common carriers have a pretty sweet lobby and clout in DC.


:tpd:
Well and the fact that the government would be able to make a private person its agent. If you remember the cases in the 90's when the Fed tried to force local governments to implement its federal gun registration policy you will see a relationship to this case. This however is worse as the Fed is seeking to have a private person act as its agent.


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## jph712 (Jan 24, 2007)

bobarian said:


> Its interesting how a comment on Smoking Laws can turn into a comparison of democratic and communist politics. There are only two semi-communist countries left in the world(Cuba and China). North Korea is a military dictatorship and Russia is basically an enhance criminal enterprise. To blame the current problems in the US on the "Communist's" is taking a myopic view of the world.
> 
> Parenting in the 21st century has taken a back seat.


I'll take a minor exception with your assessment that Cuba and China are communist. Since you can now own property in China that woud rule them out as communist, and a semi-Fidel free Cuba is now allowing for more private ownership of things as well. Neither were really ever Communist, and were always dicatorial via force, much like North Korea.

The current wishy-washy stance taken in the U.S. are more from the Socialist point of view, where help comes from the Government not from the self.

JPH712


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