# Cuban Cigars need...



## Footbag (May 14, 2008)

For as expesive as Cuban cigars are, I wonder why they don't have better counterfeit detection. It must cost them billions, and turn off customers whose first CC is a fake. The problem with the current system is that you cannot really tell if they are real without checking the computer. It needs to improve.

I know Raul Castro reads this forum so I'll propose it here...

CC boxes need holographic stickers to replace the box seals. These labels should have the factory and date codes on them as well as on the outside and inside of the box. Also a single unique serial #.

They should emboss the factory and date codes across the Holographic sticker and box. Now, as long as the 4 date and factory codes as well as the serial# on the outside and inside match up, you're safe. Also, peel the sticker off and it reveals more copy protection. Kind of like the Void Void Void stickers.

This will cost them a good amount of money, but it would make counterfeiting very difficult and expensive. Only larger organizations have the capability to produce unique holographic stickers and given the expenses of producing the cigar boxes themselves, this would only add a small relative cost. There is no doubt that eliminating counterfeits would save more then they lose. They just have to implement a good system.


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## NCRadioMan (Feb 28, 2005)

Footbag said:


> For as expesive as Cuban cigars are,


On the whole, cuban cigars are cheaper than the "top" nc's.



> The problem with the current system is that you cannot really tell if they are real without checking the computer. It needs to improve.


If you do your research and trust your source, there are no problems.

:2


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## Da Klugs (Jan 8, 2005)

NCRadioMan said:


> On the whole, cuban cigars are cheaper than the "top" nc's.
> 
> If you do your research and trust your source, there are no problems.
> 
> :2


Bingo was his name O!

Fakes come from counterfieters who sell through channels similar to drug dealing networks.

Cuban cigars are sold through licensed distributors who supply licensed LCDH B&M's and certain other retailers. So long as you buy from the right supply chain, fakes really are not much of a concern.


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## pnoon (Jun 8, 2005)

Da Klugs said:


> Bingo was his name O!
> 
> Fakes come from counterfieters who sell through channels similar to drug dealing networks.
> 
> Cuban cigars are sold through licensed distributors who supply licensed LCDH B&M's and certain other retailers. So long as you buy from the right supply chain, fakes really are not much of a concern.


Even if I have a friend who has a brother who's ex-wife's uncle knows someone in the factory?


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## freakygar (Dec 13, 2007)

pnoon said:


> Even if I have a friend who has a brother who's ex-wife's uncle knows someone in the factory?


You know that guy too??? :ss


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## hk3 (Jan 29, 2008)

Knowledge is the key to prevent getting ripped off. If you see something that is an outrageous deal.... it's probably too good to be true.


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## mikeyj23 (Feb 25, 2007)

pnoon said:


> Even if I have a friend who has a brother who's ex-wife's uncle knows someone in the factory?


It's a damn good thing boxes fall off the trucks so often, since as far as I know factory workers aren't handed boxes on the way out of work every day.


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## krisko (Jul 28, 2007)

I think the OP makes a good point but even with those security procedures fakes would still be rampant. Somebody who's never seen or smoked a CC doesn't know what to look for now, much less with revamped packaging.


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## Footbag (May 14, 2008)

This is more about making counterfeiters job more difficult. I have been gifted fake cigars in the past, and I'm not going to tell my parents or friends to compare the box codes to the internet. I'm just going to tell then thanks but no thanks. [or print out detailed directions to the Casa del Habanos]
But if this causes Habanos to lose a sale, they're losing money.
Even worse,if a counterfieter makes money, who knows where that money goes.
Also, if you compare apples to apples, Cuban cigars are more expensive. Compare the top 25 list by country. As well, a lot of other brands use better counterfeit protection.
A lot of people buy luxury items on vacation, and they're even putting holographs on Watches. I think thatany highly counterfeited brand should take steps to reverse the trend.


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## NCRadioMan (Feb 28, 2005)

Like any major illicit operation, they always stay one step ahead of the law. Fakes will always be around. It's up to the consumer to know what they are buying, as in all things. Like you said, if somebody offers to buy me cigars out of the country and they don't know what to look for, I will decline. Unless they can find one of those rare glass-top boxes. :ss


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## mikeyj23 (Feb 25, 2007)

Footbag said:


> ...Also, if you compare apples to apples, Cuban cigars are more expensive. Compare the top 25 list by country...


Are you talking about comparing a "top of the line" Cuban with a "top of the line" Dominican or talking about comparing quality with quality? If the former, then Cubans may be more expensive; if the latter, then Dominicans are far more expensive.


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## Footbag (May 14, 2008)

mikeyj23 said:


> Are you talking about comparing a "top of the line" Cuban with a "top of the line" Dominican or talking about comparing quality with quality? If the former, then Cubans may be more expensive; if the latter, then Dominicans are far more expensive.


I'm comparing starting price, moderate price,and high end. IMO you have to pay more to smoke a Cuban cigar then a NC. Not sure if theres a better/easier metric to judge.

I'm not going to use the term quality. I think construction of NC's is much better,and flavor is subjective.


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## Twill413 (Jul 19, 2006)

krisko said:


> I think the OP makes a good point but even with those security procedures fakes would still be rampant. Somebody who's never seen or smoked a CC doesn't know what to look for now, much less with revamped packaging.


And those that know what to look for in the real deal and have trusted sources with no provenance and procurement issues who obtain their supply through legitimate channels don't need additional security measures anyways.



Footbag said:


> I'm comparing starting price, moderate price,and high end. IMO you have to pay more to smoke a Cuban cigar then a NC. Not sure if theres a better/easier metric to judge.
> 
> I'm not going to use the term quality. I think construction of NC's is much better,and flavor is subjective.


Couldn't disagree more, but this discussion has been done and I respect your opinion. There are NCs that I enjoy and CCs that I enjoy, but put two equally priced cigars in front of me, and I will go Cuban 9 times out of 10. Not to mention I can smoke aged stock for the same price as "new"(I know they are aged prior to rolling) NC.


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## ridein04 (Jun 3, 2007)

This topic brought another question to mind. Has anyone ever seen of NC's being counterfitted? Maybe Opus or some of the other hard to obtain NC's?


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## NCRadioMan (Feb 28, 2005)

ridein04 said:


> This topic brought another question to mind. Has anyone ever seen of NC's being counterfitted? Maybe Opus or some of the other hard to obtain NC's?


Opus, for sure. Also Padron '64's and '26's. That's why they have the serial numbers.


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## hk3 (Jan 29, 2008)

NCRadioMan said:


> Opus, for sure. Also Padron '64's and '26's. That's why they have the serial numbers.


:r:r:r Love your avatar! I dont like koolaid either!:r


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## mikeyj23 (Feb 25, 2007)

Footbag said:


> I'm comparing starting price, moderate price,and high end. IMO you have to pay more to smoke a Cuban cigar then a NC. Not sure if theres a better/easier metric to judge.
> 
> I'm not going to use the term quality. I think construction of NC's is much better,and flavor is subjective.





Twill413 said:


> Couldn't disagree more, but this discussion has been done and I respect your opinion. There are NCs that I enjoy and CCs that I enjoy, but put two equally priced cigars in front of me, and I will go Cuban 9 times out of 10. Not to mention I can smoke aged stock for the same price as "new"(I know they are aged prior to rolling) NC.


:tpd: Starting price - NC may be cheaper as there aren't any Thompsons of Cuban cigars. Moderate price - Cubans are cheaper. Top of the line - Cubans are still cheaper.


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## Footbag (May 14, 2008)

mikeyj23 said:


> :tpd: Starting price - NC may be cheaper as there aren't any Thompsons of Cuban cigars. Moderate price - Cubans are cheaper. Top of the line - Cubans are still cheaper.


I'm unfamiliar with the idea that Cubans are cheaper. As a Noob, if there's a link to a post I missed I'd love to see it. What would everyone consider a moderate priced cigar? $10-15? High end? $30
Also what would be some recommendations for under $10 CC's?


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## Twill413 (Jul 19, 2006)

mikeyj23 said:


> :tpd: Starting price - NC may be cheaper as there aren't any Thompsons of Cuban cigars.


C'mon, how do you beat Peso cigars?


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## krisko (Jul 28, 2007)

Footbag said:


> I'm unfamiliar with the idea that Cubans are cheaper. As a Noob, if there's a link to a post I missed I'd love to see it. What would everyone consider a moderate priced cigar? $10-15? High end? $30
> Also what would be some recommendations for under $10 CC's?


I would agree with the notion that hi-end CCs are always cheaper than hi-end NCs. Unless we are talking about 10 year old Montecristos or something...it's difficult to attach a value to them. The VAST majority of CCs (not including anything Cohiba) can be had for between $6-$10 each.

My limited experience has proven (to me) that you just won't find a decent CC for under $5 (Party Shorts, some PCs excluded). Meanwhile you can good to very good NCs all day for under $5 if you know where to look. I know...this debate has been well hashed.


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## Da Klugs (Jan 8, 2005)

Footbag said:


> I'm unfamiliar with the idea that Cubans are cheaper. As a Noob, if there's a link to a post I missed I'd love to see it. What would everyone consider a moderate priced cigar? $10-15? High end? $30
> Also what would be some recommendations for under $10 CC's?


It's difficult to find a regular production "high end Cuban cigar" costing $ 30. ($750 a box of 25) Come to think of it I can't. Some of the regionals and LE's have beat that by a bit but that's it. Your typical cuban cigar ranges between $ 5 and $ 10 per stick. There are exceptions either way but that covers 95% of them.

As far as being unfamiliar with the idea... well it's not really an idea but a common misconception we all might have held prior to understanding the truth of the matter. Frequent readers and those who have been involved here for a bit would probably get patriotic and say.. "we hold these truths to be self evident".


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## Sancho (Oct 13, 2006)

I've seen many a decent ISOM costing less than 2$ a stick, seems like a pretty good deal to me. Granted as had been said taste is subjective, I know what I like and I smoke what I like be it a high-end or low end. The one issue I do have is finding a good reason to buy a $30 NC when I know I can get more enjoyment for less out of other ISOM sticks costing 1/3rd as much


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## Footbag (May 14, 2008)

I see the point that many good Cuban cigars are available at NC prices. I'm waiting on some RASS's. I do think I've become more adept at getting good deals on NC Boxes. I get good deals locally and am adept at "winning" auctions. 
I've have also noticed that Cuban cigar prices vary greatly, even from reputable dealers and exchange rates are not so favorable to us right now. I'm also getting the hint that this topic may reopen a debate some have grown tired of, so I won't beg the question. 

I will say that if I had a $10 CC and a $10 NC in front of me, I'd take the CC also.:ss


Oh yeah, Cuban cigar boxes need Holographs too!


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## thebiglebowski (Dec 19, 2005)

Footbag said:


> I know Raul Castro reads this forum so I'll propose it here...


hang on. really?


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## burninator (Jul 11, 2006)

thebiglebowski said:


> hang on. really?


:r That's exactly where I stopped reading. :r


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## the nub (Mar 24, 2006)

Getting back to the OP, holograms have limited effectiveness. All boxes sold in Cuba currently have holograms. Unfortunately, there will always be someone who wants a deal or thinks their source (bartender, lifeguard) would never rip them off. Who knows how many hundreds of boxes of fake cigars are sold in Cuba everyday despite the warnings about fake cigars everywhere. The Cuban gov't has an official pamphlet on fakes and posters are placed at the airports, hotels, cigar stores, restaurants, etc. They charge about 10-20CUC more for boxes with holograms. Most fake boxes DON'T have holograms, which shows that people don't care or are just plain stupid when it comes to buying cigars in Cuba. IMO there would be ZERO chance that the Cuban gov't would step up this measure- anyone who has been there would probably agree that things get done in a certain way. 

Now, just imagine trying to get the measure stepped up four fold. Not going to happen. Add in present quality control and you have huge potential of getting serials mixed up and not matching on each box. Add in that internet buyers want boxes opened before shipment, so that negates the entire program. 

Know your source. Packaging is secondary, if that.


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## cigarflip (Jul 4, 2004)

Footbag said:


> I'm unfamiliar with the idea that Cubans are cheaper. As a Noob, if there's a link to a post I missed I'd love to see it. What would everyone consider a moderate priced cigar? $10-15? High end? $30
> Also what would be some recommendations for under $10 CC's?


I'm amazed that you can write with so much conviction on what the cuban cigar industry needs to avoid counterfeiting and come back later with a post with these two words. 
1. unfamiliar 
2. noob


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## DBall (Jun 4, 2007)

Again back to the OP, holograms aren't going to change anything... people buy glass top Cohiba boxes ALL THE TIME. For people that know even a small bit about Cuban cigars, they know that Cohiba never made any boxes with glass tops... but to people unfamiliar with it, they think it's legit.

If people are buying _those_, holograms aren't gonna make a difference.



the nub said:


> Know your source. Packaging is secondary, if that.


:tu


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## Addiction (May 8, 2007)

My noobish two cents. Most cubans seem to be mid market, with a ridiculous number of them (perhaps 80%?) in the $5-$10 range. Only maybe 5% of cubans seem to be above this range and 15% below. NCs have a ridiculous number of choices above that price, and even some that go for 3-4 times that price. 

I further opine that the end of the embargo will signal the end of the counterfitting market or at least a severe decline. I just don't hear about people returning from Geneva or London with fakes, because there are too many legitimate sources available. I believe as soon as there are 20-25 LCDHs in America that 90% of the populus that wants to buy a Cuban for whatever reason will buy them there plain and simple.


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## krisko (Jul 28, 2007)

I disagree...I think counterfeits will be prevalent after the embargo is ended. I could even see them in B&Ms, as shop owners don't know what to look for. Let's face it, collecting CCs is an arduous process and it would probably remain so after the embargo.

Ultimately fakes and struggling CC brands would fade away. What happens to the industry on both sides of the fence after the embargo is a complete mystery.


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## D. Generate (Jul 1, 2004)

I hate the way you set up your thread title. Nothing personal, I just hate ellipsis. They aren't designed to communicate anything but rather to obscure.

As far as your opinion, I agree to an extent, but it doesn't hold up in the real world. People buy Cuban cigars because a) they know cigars and prefer them or b) because they are Cuban cigars.

Now the folks that fall into the first category know how to spot fakes. The folks that fall into the second couldn't care less. What benefit would a hologram achieve?

As has been pointed out. Cuban cigars aren't a luxury item. They are in many circles a _perceived_ luxury item. They aren't more expensive, harder to find or anything else. They just require a slight, and very slight at that, knowledge of what you're after.

Forget holograms. Trust your vendor/shop. A fancy new sticker won't do anything to separate the wheat from the chaff.


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## Footbag (May 14, 2008)

cigarflip said:


> I'm amazed that you can write with so much conviction on what the cuban cigar industry needs to avoid counterfeiting and come back later with a post with these two words.
> 1. unfamiliar
> 2. noob


I am a Noob here. I've been smoking cigars for over 10 years. Like I said before, there seems to have been some debate or post unknown to me that covered the topic of CC's being cheaper. Having only recently discovered this board, and its sponsors; I have not been privy to that discussion or that concept.

My past reference has been looking at the average prices of top cigars in CA, and Top25Cigar.com as well as Casa Del Habanos on vacation. Using this data, supports the idea that they're more expensive. I also know that european goods are 50-100% more expensive then they were three years ago, which makes the distinction even more difficult to identify. Also it is hard if not impossible to compare a CC to an NC. What is low medium and high end? I'm not saying I disagree with the concept, I'm just saying I haven't been exposed to that idea. I would still like to see a past post on this, but all of my search efforts came up fruitless.

As for your complaining about my conviction... Well, I don't even know what I'm supposed to say. I'll try and have less? It is my opinion that it doesn't take an expert cigar smoker to recognize that counterfeiting is a problem for the industry, just as it doesn't take a mechanic to tell you your car is out of gas.

That said, every industry (including the cigar industry)that has problems with counterfeits uses some sort of counterfeit protection. In CC's case they use factory codes and Cuban seals. Either can be reproduced with less then $100 in equipment. A holograph cannot. But as I pointed out, one cannot truly confirm a box is good without a list of factory codes or the internet.

If you think it either won't help prevent counterfeits or give customers piece of mind, then fine, that's your opinion. But it has succesfully saved billions for a number of other industries. There is a well practiced and very common solution to counterfeit protection, that would easily adapt to the cigar industry. There is a reason why the Padron's use it.

There is another message board that is dealing with counterfeits. It seems to me that a new counterfeit protection would empower non-experts to find authentic Cuban cigars. I have to assume that everyone here has been handed a fake Cuban; perhaps one out of 5 of those could have been prevented.

One last thought... If the Cuban cigar industry was publicly held, do you think they would improve their counterfeit protection?


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## NCRadioMan (Feb 28, 2005)

Footbag said:


> I I have to assume that everyone here has been handed a fake Cuban; perhaps one out of 5 of those could have been prevented.


You know what happens when you ass/u/me. 

Caveat emptor. Nobody should go out and buy something without some knowledge of the product. That goes for_ any_ product.

:2

Hey Dale...............


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## Footbag (May 14, 2008)

NCRadioMan said:


> You know what happens when you ass/u/me.
> 
> Caveat emptor. Nobody should go out and buy something without some knowledge of the product. That goes for_ any_ product.
> 
> :2


I didn't buy them... I know what to look for. I have been gifted them.


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## NCRadioMan (Feb 28, 2005)

Footbag said:


> I didn't buy them... I know what to look for. I have been gifted them.


If they were fake it's a great way to educate the party that picked them up for you. Education is key.


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## D. Generate (Jul 1, 2004)

Footbag said:


> I am a Noob here. I've been smoking cigars for over 10 years. Like I said before, there seems to have been some debate or post unknown to me that covered the topic of CC's being cheaper. Having only recently discovered this board, and its sponsors; I have not been privy to that discussion or that concept.
> 
> My past reference has been looking at the average prices of top cigars in CA, and Top25Cigar.com as well as Casa Del Habanos on vacation. Using this data, supports the idea that they're more expensive. I also know that european goods are 50-100% more expensive then they were three years ago, which makes the distinction even more difficult to identify. Also it is hard if not impossible to compare a CC to an NC. What is low medium and high end? I'm not saying I disagree with the concept, I'm just saying I haven't been exposed to that idea. I would still like to see a past post on this, but all of my search efforts came up fruitless.
> 
> ...


This is a good post, and I understand where you're coming from. Unfortunately where you're coming from and where Habana is coming from is miles apart. You take a very capitalist approach, which I find hard to disagree with.

The problem is Habana is not capitalist, the government and economy is, for lack of a better word, a shambles. Padron anniversary cigars are numbered, something you'll rarely find in Cuban cigars. While I encourage their government and economy to open up, to blindly assume that a hologram will be adopted in their best interest and solve the counterfeiting problem goes against a good 50 years of real world experience.

Now, when the embargo is lifted in a couple years I'm sure a hologram will be in place and we will all desperately be seeking pre-lifted-embargo smokes.


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## Footbag (May 14, 2008)

NCRadioMan said:


> If they were fake it's a great way to educate the party that picked them up for you. Education is key.


The party didn't smoke cigars, they thought they were doing me a favor, but they were offered a glass top box on the beach that they couldn't resist. Obviously not the best place to buy cigars, but it was a nice gesture.

If I'm advising someone on where to get cigars, I print them out directions to the Casa Del Habanos and tell them thats the only place. I have been at a resort that should have been reputable, but had bad cigars.


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## NCRadioMan (Feb 28, 2005)

Footbag said:


> The party didn't smoke cigars, they thought they were doing me a favor, but they were offered a glass top box on the beach that they couldn't resist. Obviously not the best place to buy cigars, but it was a nice gesture.
> 
> If I'm advising someone on where to get cigars, I print them out directions to the Casa Del Habanos and tell them thats the only place. I have been at a resort that should have been reputable, but had bad cigars.


Yes, that was very nice of them to pick up some cigars for you. The intention is all that really matters. Hopefully they didn't pay too much.

But, I am officially jealous. You have the, much talked about, glass-top box. WooT! 



> The problem is Habana is not capitalist, the government and economy is, for lack of a better word, a shambles.


:tpd:


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## Footbag (May 14, 2008)

NCRadioMan said:


> Yes, that was very nice of them to pick up some cigars for you. The intention is all that really matters. Hopefully they didn't pay too much.
> 
> But, I am officially jealous. You have the, much talked about, glass-top box. WooT!


Funny Story, At my wedding we had a smoking tent. I had about 10 authentic Esplendidos and 10 Monte No.2 in the bottom of my humidor. The photographer put the glass box on the bar to photograph it. I told him it was fake and to keep it under the bar. He ignored me, so every time someone walked over, I told them the real CC's were in the bottom of the humidor and to ignore the glass box. At the end of the night, my cousin walks over and tells me someone stole a bunch of cigars. I check the bottom of the humidor and most of the authentic ones are still there, but the glass box is opened and all of the cigars are gone. 
Never found out who it was, but at least they only got the fakes!
I am driven nuts every time I see a fake Cuban on the bar in my wedding photo's.

Yeah, I cannot help looking at it from a capitalist approach. That said, those who buy fake cigars are still victimized, and counterfeiters are funded by organized crime.


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## Addiction (May 8, 2007)

krisko said:


> I disagree...I think counterfeits will be prevalent after the embargo is ended. *I could even see them in B&Ms, as shop owners don't know what to look for.* Let's face it, collecting CCs is an arduous process and it would probably remain so after the embargo.
> 
> Ultimately fakes and struggling CC brands would fade away. What happens to the industry on both sides of the fence after the embargo is a complete mystery.


I think if you put 100 shop owners in a empty room, at least 90-95 of them could tell you where you find authentic cubans. Most decent shops are owned by cigar lovers, even if their workers don't know crap they are pretty knowledgeable. As I think about the owners near me:

- #1 has a private humi in the back of his store which is filled with about 30 cuban boxes that he holds for the guy who invested in the shop to help him get started. When a box runs out he replaces it for him, based on conversations I know he knows.

- #2 owns two stores and just took 1 months vacation that just happened to coincide with the opening of LCDH Dubai (sp). Bought 3 Millienum Jars and a box of 150ths.

- #3 is a notable in the cigar world with his own brand and published books. Never met him but this guy has to know.

- #4 is the 4th or 5th largest retailer of cigars in the US. I went to a dinner he sponsored and traded him a PSP for an 06 SCLDH Officios. Having had about 10 now I can say it it both looked and tasted pretty legit.

- #5 is a source for me. We've talked about this topic extensively.

I could go on but I've basically covered every major retailer in my area with one exception, he might be the only one I know of who'd possibly buy fakes.

I have to imagine that when the embargo is lifted that at the very least Altadis, who is already a member of RTDA (or whatever it is called now) and owns a big chunk of habanos distribution, would communicate clearly with retailers on how they get ccs or at a minimum how they avoid fakes. After the embargo if you go in a store and get fakes its because the person who bought em to sell em didnt give a damn if they were fake or real.

On the other side of the coin fakes exist because of legality issues with supply. Much like when prohibition ended and Al Capone had to find other ways to make money the same thing is true here. I mean you dont see many americans buying gold in back alleys because they can go to Kay and get their jewelry fix on. Once you can get your CCs in a local B&M I would be willing to pay a premium to be able to select the box I want personally.


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## icehog3 (Feb 20, 2005)

Footbag said:


> That said, every industry (including the cigar industry)that has problems with counterfeits uses some sort of counterfeit protection. In CC's case they use factory codes and Cuban seals. Either can be reproduced with less then $100 in equipment.


I don't believe the Cuban's themselves use factory codes and seals as a counterfeit protection. They are used more for production and revenue tracking devices. It is more the cigar consumers that use these things to help indentify legitimate cigars, amongst other things.


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## Footbag (May 14, 2008)

icehog3 said:


> I don't believe the Cuban's themselves use factory codes and seals as a counterfeit protection. They are used more for production and revenue tracking devices. It is more the cigar consumers that use these things to help indentify legitimate cigars, amongst other things.


The 2000 seal switch incorporated micro-printing and a UV watermark. While one cannot be sure counterfeiting is the reason, the exact placement of the seal [fold in the center of the shield] would have no tracking benefits. Watermark either. It would just act as an extra identifier.


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## Twill413 (Jul 19, 2006)

My humble opinion and experience is that CS and other quality boards are the BEST anti-counterfeit measure available. The collective knowledge contained herein should be more than enough to stop someone with a modicum of desire and determination to find the answer that keeps them from being taken for a ride.


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## grinch (Sep 30, 2006)

If you want holographs......here ya' go.

http://www.justfakes.com/

They're sold out of Cuban hologram stickers at this moment......must be a big seller!:tu


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## Footbag (May 14, 2008)

grinch said:


> If you want holographs......here ya' go.
> 
> http://www.justfakes.com/
> 
> They're sold out of Cuban hologram stickers at this moment......must be a big seller!:tu


I've never even seen that one. That site is very depressing though.


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## NCRadioMan (Feb 28, 2005)

grinch said:


> If you want holographs......here ya' go.
> 
> http://www.justfakes.com/
> 
> They're sold out of Cuban hologram stickers at this moment......must be a big seller!:tu


:r Very true. Hologram stickers on boxes, not purchased straight of Cuba, _can_ be another sign that they are fake.


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## ResIpsa (Mar 8, 2006)

Footbag said:


> ...It is my opinion that it doesn't take an expert cigar smoker to recognize that counterfeiting is a problem for the industry...
> 
> ......That said, every industry (including the cigar industry)that has problems with counterfeits uses some sort of counterfeit protection.....


And therein lies the rub. They all use protection, yet they all fail. The music industry, the movie industry, the computer software industry, Gucci, Rolex, and on and on and on.

To me, the point you're missing is this: All of those other industries constantly update and change their protection schemes and what happens? The pirates/counterfeiters adapt as well. It would be no different with Cuban cigars.

So long as there is money to be made in piracy/counterfeiting, be it Cuban cigars or movies, or clothing or upscale watches, there's going to be pirates and counterfeiters.

Maybe if Cuba sold everything as a _peso_ cigar the problem would go away, because there would be no money in counterfeits.:2


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## Footbag (May 14, 2008)

ResIpsa said:


> And therein lies the rub. They all use protection, yet they all fail. The music industry, the movie industry, the computer software industry, Gucci, Rolex, and on and on and on.
> 
> To me, the point you're missing is this: All of those other industries constantly update and change their protection schemes and what happens? The pirates/counterfeiters adapt as well. It would be no different with Cuban cigars.
> 
> ...


I have heard the argument that they have succeeded in the Luxury clothing, handbag and watch industry not because there aren't many fakes out there; but because purchasers know they're fakes and buy at huge discounts. 
Those who want the authentic do pay huge premiums for the real deal, but people are infrequently fooled into paying normal prices for fake goods.


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## Addiction (May 8, 2007)

ResIpsa said:


> And therein lies the rub. They all use protection, yet they all fail. The music industry, the movie industry, the computer software industry, Gucci, Rolex, and on and on and on.
> 
> To me, the point you're missing is this: All of those other industries constantly update and change their protection schemes and what happens? The pirates/counterfeiters adapt as well. It would be no different with Cuban cigars.
> 
> ...


There is one hole here: every woman I've ever known who had a fake Louis V, knew she had a fake Louis V. But they were typically more concerned with putting on airs than owning a $800 purse. Where as 90% of the people buying fake Cohibas actually believe they are really getting Cohibas. I just don't think the market will be that hot when people can get the things they actually want for sources they know and trust.


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## mikeyj23 (Feb 25, 2007)

There was a good article in CA (haha I know, right?) not long ago about counterfeiting in general and how to spot fakes. I posted it with some links here:
http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showthread.php?t=152707


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## mash (Jul 24, 2007)

ResIpsa said:


> And therein lies the rub. They all use protection, yet they all fail. The music industry, the movie industry, the computer software industry, Gucci, Rolex, and on and on and on.
> 
> To me, the point you're missing is this: All of those other industries constantly update and change their protection schemes and what happens? The pirates/counterfeiters adapt as well. It would be no different with Cuban cigars.
> 
> ...


Pretty smart analysis. Anything sought after is worth faking, and the fakes get better and better.


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## MNWanger (Jun 2, 2008)

ridein04 said:


> This topic brought another question to mind. Has anyone ever seen of NC's being counterfitted? Maybe Opus or some of the other hard to obtain NC's?


I know for sure that there was someone on eBay that was selling fake Opus Chili Peppers. He seemed to be selling hundreds of them. I've also heard of some other NCs being faked.


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## Puffin Fresh (Nov 1, 2006)

NCRadioMan said:


> On the whole, cuban cigars are cheaper than the "top" nc's.


On the whole, NC cigars are cheaper than the "top" CC's.

It goes both ways. There are cheap NC and cheap CC's, and there are overpriced NC and overpriced CC'd.

I will say that the "average" CC costs more than the "average" NC. That being said, the taste of the average CC and the average NC may not be equal.


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## icehog3 (Feb 20, 2005)

Sauer Grapes said:


> On the whole, NC cigars are cheaper than the "top" CC's.
> 
> It goes both ways. There are cheap NC and cheap CC's, and there are overpriced NC and overpriced CC'd.
> 
> I will say that the "average" CC costs more than the "average" NC. That being said, *the taste of the average CC and the average NC may not be equal.*


Bingo.


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## Mullet (Oct 22, 2007)

this is an interesting thread no matter where your loyalty lies. I agree with the OP that if Cuban manufacturers authenticated their products marginally better, there would be less counterfeiting. However, with sunglasses, watches, and cigars, counterfeiting is like 50% of the industry. That's just the nature of the beast. It could be done better though, no question.


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## Puffin Fresh (Nov 1, 2006)

No matter what they do to avoid counterfeits, they'll never solve the problem. 

1) any technology they implement can be copied

and

2) there'll always be ignorant people that'll buy the fakes because they don't know any better


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## jaymz (Oct 12, 2007)

ridein04 said:


> This topic brought another question to mind. Has anyone ever seen of NC's being counterfitted? Maybe Opus or some of the other hard to obtain NC's?


http://www.cigaraficionado.com/Cigar/CA_Counterfeits/Counterfeit_Page/0,3391,26,00.html


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