# To freeze or not to freeze



## jmcrawf1 (May 2, 2007)

It's simple...


Do you or don't you :ss


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## borndead1 (Oct 21, 2006)

I freeze every single cigar I get, no matter where it comes from.




24-48-24-VINO!


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## Moglman-cl (May 27, 2005)

Nope. If I had a deep freeze (or any room in the freezer) I might. I have occasionally in the past but it's not a habit.


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## doctorcue (Apr 19, 2006)

Rarely. I have a hard time assuming the beatles will hatch only once in my house and not during the whole manufacturing process. Then again... I'm probably dooming myself.


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## Papichulo (Jan 21, 2007)

Of course I do.


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## jkorp (Sep 27, 2007)

borndead1 said:


> ...
> 
> 24-48-24-VINO!


:tpd:

That's the recipe right there, exaclty. Got some QdO Corona just about to enter the process tonight.


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## Stonefox (Nov 3, 2005)

Rarely do I have the cigars around long enough for the little buggers to do any damage. If I had a large collection I would probably freeze everything. Besides, beetles taste good when they are young.


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## NCRadioMan (Feb 28, 2005)

jmcrawf1 said:


> It's simple...


Yes it is. And, it's a sticky. 

http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2898


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## Seanohue (Oct 2, 2006)

Only if transit time is more than a week.


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## jmcrawf1 (May 2, 2007)

NCRadioMan said:


> Yes it is. And, it's a sticky.
> 
> http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2898


Bah! Laziness get the best of me


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## NCRadioMan (Feb 28, 2005)

jmcrawf1 said:


> Bah! Laziness get the best of me


Happens to the best of us.  :r

I do freeze in when the temps start to go up in the spring and summer. I have found some shipments in my, hot arse, car because the lazy mail/delivery-person will not walk to the door.  Plus, when did they get permission to enter my car! 

When I don't freeze, I quarantine until I feel it's safe to store.


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## Texan in Mexico (Oct 29, 2007)

jkorp and papichulo know what they are talking about, no doubt about it, honestly if you don't freeze - you will once the beetles come out.


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## cenookie (Jun 28, 2007)

I don't care where my sticks come from, but I FREEZE everything. Somehow this puts my mind at ease.


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## pnoon (Jun 8, 2005)

NCRadioMan said:


> Yes it is. And, it's a sticky.
> 
> http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2898


Damn elitist.


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## MeNimbus (Dec 18, 2006)

Sometimes I freeze and sometimes I do not. It all depends on the cigar. :r


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## BigRonS (Apr 5, 2008)

ive never frozen a cigar in my whole life..


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## Blueface (May 28, 2005)

pnoon said:


> Damn elitist.


Get it right Peter.
Damn elitist prick.


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## Addiction (May 8, 2007)

I used to freeze everything, now I freeze nothing. I store at 64 degrees and 65 % as long as the cabinets working I have no worries. And if the cabinet fails and the little monitor alarm goes off I have a vino and a half for backup.


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## Twill413 (Jul 19, 2006)

I don't know how people can be in the middle on this one, IE freeze sometimes and not others. If you are going to freeze the only way to be sure is to freeze the everything, otherwise a nonfrozen cigar will just infect the frozen one unless they are kept completely separate. Otherwise you are just wasting your time.


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## worr lord (Feb 3, 2007)

Box storage and frequent checking make for fewer trips to the freezer :tu


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## NCRadioMan (Feb 28, 2005)

Twill413 said:


> I don't know how people can be in the middle on this one, IE freeze sometimes and not others. If you are going to freeze the only way to be sure is to freeze the everything, otherwise a nonfrozen cigar will just infect the frozen one unless they are kept completely separate. Otherwise you are just wasting your time.


Some shipments take a week or longer (I freeze those) and some take a day or two. That's the difference for me. If I am wasting my time, it's my time to waste.


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## the nub (Mar 24, 2006)

This is similar to the CC vs. NC debate. I doubt anyone is going convince someone else to change their preference. People have their reasons for doing what they do. It doesn't matter to me if _someone else_ freezes or not and I don't think it matters to anyone else if _I_ freeze or not.


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## worr lord (Feb 3, 2007)

the nub said:


> This is similar to the CC vs. NC debate. I doubt anyone is going convince someone else to change their preference. People have their reasons for doing what they do. It doesn't matter to me if _someone else_ freezes or not and I don't think it matters to anyone else if _I_ freeze or not.


Agreed. This seems to be more of a question of a personal sense of security and safety than playing the odds of getting a breakout.


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## Tour De Cigar (Feb 26, 2007)

no, haven't did this yet...


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## 44MAG (Mar 9, 2008)

Addiction said:


> I used to freeze everything, now I freeze nothing. I store at 64 degrees and 65 % as long as the cabinets working I have no worries. And if the cabinet fails and the little monitor alarm goes off I have a vino and a half for backup.


:tpd:


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## zmancbr (Nov 20, 2007)

I have never actually found it necessary to freeze my gars. I haven't been unfortunate enough to find a beetle in my collection yet (knock on wood) and I am pretty diligent about keeping my cigars below 72... which in Colorado is only hard about 5 months out of the year...


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## groogs (Oct 13, 2007)

I have very few CC cigars (in the single digits), but I have started to freeze everything (CC, NC) just to be safe. It can't hurt.


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## Cadillac (Feb 28, 2007)

Just for the record, if you have any Gold Medals, either freeze them, or check them regularly.


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## txdyna65 (Aug 21, 2006)

the nub said:


> This is similar to the CC vs. NC debate. I doubt anyone is going convince someone else to change their preference. People have their reasons for doing what they do. It doesn't matter to me if _someone else_ freezes or not and I don't think it matters to anyone else if _I_ freeze or not.


The thread and peoples posts may not change their mind one way or another, but an outbreak surely will 

I havent worried about this since I got my temp controlled aristocrat, but I do keep all new stuff in the bottom away from all my regular stock for a long time and in bags.


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## One Lonely Smoker (Jan 21, 2005)

Never froze one cigar in my life, and the only beetle outbreak I ever had was in a Rocky Patel product, so that no longer worries me. Man, his cedar wrapped stuff was incubatorial. But I don't smoke those kinds of cigars anymore. 
Will I ever freeze, hell no. I don't believe in it. No amount of raggin will convince me, no amount of loss will shame me. People either do or they don't, but I don't believe it's the best thing to have dozens of people suddenly going to freezing when it is likely they do not have the proper equipment to do it the way it needs to be done. Expert freezing may have little effect on the product, but I think that inexpert attempts are much more harmfull than beetle _potential_. And who would want ANY fridge flavor getting near the cigars on their re-acclimatization?

I am not going to lay out any other criticism of the technique, I know alot of people do it to everything, everytime, and although I do not think they are right, I do not enjoy hearing their Nostradamus-like forboding warnings at ME, so I will say, if you value your investment, and you value the advice of people who freeze, then sure, go ahead. But read everything you can about how and why before you try it. There are a few bad things that can happen to your cigars from doing it wrong.

IME, trusting your vendor and _properly storing your cigars_, thinking of their comfort before your energy savings, is all the hedge you need against the f*ckers. If a beetle hatches in *my* storage area, he can eat what he wants, cause he's a real wonder.


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## Addiction (May 8, 2007)

txdyna65 said:


> The thread and peoples posts may not change their mind one way or another, but an outbreak surely will
> 
> I havent worried about this since I got my temp controlled aristocrat, but I do keep all new stuff in the bottom away from all my regular stock for a long time and in bags.


As long as you keep it below 71 you can only have the smallest problem Kenny. The males fly at night t find females to mate, they can only mate when they fly and they will not fly if the temperature is below 71 degrees. The report I just finished reading actually says why, but I didn't retain that part lol.

The very same report says that if you have an average freezer, which most people do, and it ranges between 32 and 30 degrees it takes 33 days to kill 95% of eggs, beetles and larve. So in reality if you dont have a commercial grade freezer you are not getting the protection you thought you were getting. Which is why I stopped freezing and simply got temp controlled storage.


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## One Lonely Smoker (Jan 21, 2005)

groogs said:


> I have very few CC cigars (in the single digits), but I have started to freeze everything (CC, NC) just to be safe. It can't hurt.


This is what I mean above...IT CAN HURT. Even if it is done expertly, cigars can split wide open, they can go mushy and get ruined, they can taste like onions, there are a dozen ways "it can hurt".

And again, this is as anecdotally spurious as the counterclaims, but I HAVE NEVER FROZEN A CUBAN CIGAR AND I HAVE NEVER HATCHED ONE BEETLE, in ten years of large scale storing of cigars.
It comes down to who you believe, how much you value your cigars, and how well you think you can achieve the ultimate goal which is DEEP FREEZE.
Not popsicles in the freezer, not firm or soft ice cream preference, DEEP FREEZE. Plus the comedown stage where they can swell and split and take on flavors.

I DO NOT want anyone to lose cigars, just stop skimming and research this please before you begin something as serious as freezing. There are risks, and yes there are rules, at least if you intend this shock to have the effect you desire which is total eradication of ANY risk. See what I do is minimize the risk almost completely with NO SHOCK to my cigars. If you freeze improperly, you shock your cigars, risk damage or harm, and then when it's all over, YOU STILL may not have zeroed your risk of beetles. Only perfect freezing technique makes a freezer's risk less than mine.


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## dvickery (Jan 1, 2000)

Addiction said:


> The very same report says that if you have an average freezer, which most people do, and it ranges between 32 and 30 degrees it takes 33 days to kill 95% of eggs, beetles and larve.


Addiction

at 0c or 32f...for egg larva pupa and adult...100% lethality of all of them occurs at 288 hours .

derrek


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## Scimmia (Sep 22, 2006)

Addiction said:


> As long as you keep it below 71 you can only have the smallest problem Kenny. The males fly at night t find females to mate, they can only mate when they fly and they will not fly if the temperature is below 71 degrees. The report I just finished reading actually says why, but I didn't retain that part lol.
> 
> The very same report says that if you have an average freezer, which most people do, and it ranges between 32 and 30 degrees it takes 33 days to kill 95% of eggs, beetles and larve. So in reality if you dont have a commercial grade freezer you are not getting the protection you thought you were getting. Which is why I stopped freezing and simply got temp controlled storage.


I'd be interested in getting ahold of this report you mention. Someone else in here has come across a report saying that beetles can fly around as low as 54F.


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## wayner123 (Mar 29, 2007)

Scimmia said:


> I'd be interested in getting ahold of this report you mention. Someone else in here has come across a report saying that beetles can fly around as low as 54F.


This report shows that beetles were still flying at 13C (~55F).

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1034/j.1399-5448.2002.02019.x?journalCode=afs

There were also other reports, that I found, that showed tobacco farmers and scientists are finding some new breeds of tobacco/cigarette beetle that are even more cold tolerant.


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## wayner123 (Mar 29, 2007)

Addiction said:


> The very same report says that if you have an average freezer, which most people do, and it ranges between 32 and 30 degrees it takes 33 days to kill 95% of eggs, beetles and larve. So in reality if you dont have a commercial grade freezer you are not getting the protection you thought you were getting. Which is why I stopped freezing and simply got temp controlled storage.


Here are two links that may be helpful when looking at temps and how long one needs:

http://wihort.uwex.edu/gardenfacts/XHT1103.pdf

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/IG/IG11600.pdf

One idea may not to freeze at all but yet raise the temps to 125F for an hour or so. I don't know if anyone has done this sort of testing to see if it will damage the cigar, but I think I may in the future.


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## joed (Nov 12, 2005)

I would have thought that I was in the minority - but I don't freeze and never had.

One thing I have always wondered and never heard - what is the viable dormant period of a beetle larve. Can a larve still hatch after 10 years?


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## Addiction (May 8, 2007)

Scimmia said:


> I'd be interested in getting ahold of this report you mention. Someone else in here has come across a report saying that beetles can fly around as low as 54F.


Its in the latest issue of Cigar Magazine, including the links to the reports.


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## 68TriShield (May 15, 2006)

Scimmia said:


> I'd be interested in getting ahold of this report you mention. Someone else in here has come across a report saying that beetles can fly around as low as 54F.


Its the larva that we worry about though.If a Beetle is flying,its not larva anymore.
Am I wrong in thinking this?


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## wayner123 (Mar 29, 2007)

68TriShield said:


> Its the larva that we worry about though.If a Beetle is flying,its not larva anymore.
> Am I wrong in thinking this?


Hey,

You are correct that it is not a larva anymore. But if a flying adult can survive 55F, then it makes you wonder about a larva which is more protected. I posted some links above that show University studies on the subject.


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## Addiction (May 8, 2007)

wayner123 said:


> Hey,
> 
> You are correct that it is not a larva anymore. But if a flying adult can survive 55F, then it makes you wonder about a larva which is more protected. I posted some links above that show University studies on the subject.


I dont know if the larva can survive at 55, I thought I read that at 62 it will just die.


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## Scimmia (Sep 22, 2006)

joed said:


> I would have thought that I was in the minority - but I don't freeze and never had.
> 
> One thing I have always wondered and never heard - what is the viable dormant period of a beetle larve. Can a larve still hatch after 10 years?


That is an interesting question, I saw this link on another board: http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Alt/alt.smokers.cigars/2007-04/msg03090.html
"The eggs are only viable for up to about 35 days. The larva period can be up to 30 days, but they can "overwinter" and remain dormant up to 150-250 days (rarely)."

They don't give any references on that statement, though, and the one book they do reference is $200. 

Edit: Found a good study: http://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/aez/41/1/87/_pdf

100% mortality rate of eggs in 6 weeks at 18C. They also mention where the 1% mentioned below comes from. No specific info on dormancy period of the larva beyond low temps, though.


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## Scimmia (Sep 22, 2006)

68TriShield said:


> Its the larva that we worry about though.If a Beetle is flying,its not larva anymore.
> Am I wrong in thinking this?


Not wrong, but flying adults = more eggs = potentially more larva. Eggs can hatch at 65F, and the link I posted above said 1% hatch rate at 60F!


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## One Lonely Smoker (Jan 21, 2005)

Lucky for us it is a widely accepted truth that beetle hatching is 100% directly related to Karma. So unless you're an a-hole, you've got nothing to worry about. PLUS...
HOW is a beetle gonna fly in a full, closed box of havanas...the glove does not fit, lol. And if he is flying, he can't eat, and if he is a he, he can't make eggs., so it is clear that all of this talk is nonsense. There is no such thing as a tobacco beetle.

:ss


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## Addiction (May 8, 2007)

One Lonely Smoker said:


> Lucky for us it is a widely accepted truth that beetle hatching is 100% directly related to Karma. So unless you're an a-hole, you've got nothing to worry about. PLUS...
> HOW is a beetle gonna fly in a full, closed box of havanas...the glove does not fit, lol. And if he is flying, he can't eat, and if he is a he, he can't make eggs., so it is clear that all of this talk is nonsense. There is no such thing as a tobacco beetle.
> 
> :ss


If I ever got a beetle he better have the common courtesy to hatch in my Gispets dammit!


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## jkim05 (Feb 26, 2007)

I just found out my university has a copy of the 1995 work: Post-harvest tobacco infestation control / edited by L. Ryan. I'm gonna check it out and post my findings here.


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## adsantos13 (Oct 10, 2006)

One Lonely Smoker said:


> Lucky for us it is a widely accepted truth that beetle hatching is 100% directly related to Karma. So unless you're an a-hole, you've got nothing to worry about. PLUS...
> HOW is a beetle gonna fly in a full, closed box of havanas...the glove does not fit, lol. And if he is flying, he can't eat, and if he is a he, he can't make eggs., so it is clear that all of this talk is nonsense. There is no such thing as a tobacco beetle.
> 
> :ss


Best post I've read in a while!

I do not freeze. Call me silly but it worries me and I pretty much agree 100% with OLS' opinions in this thread.

I store in boxes and will soon be plastic bagging almost my entire stock (for aging purposes, not beetles, the fact that they probably cant chew through heavy duty plastic is merely an positive externality).

To be honest, cigars and this hobby of ours is supposed to be fun and not stressful. Worrying to death about beetles kind of ruins this vibe for me. It used to but I learned to be comfortably numb. I keep my sticks in the best possible conditions I can in my current situation, which at the end of the day are not too worrying (a bit of a pain, I physically move my entire stock to basement for the warm months). I take solace in math, and that the odds are in my favor that beetles won't hatch. Of course, I check my cigars often but I think I may do that more because I like to look and fondle them. Yeah, I might be sick in the head.

Anyway, at this point I worry more about higher temps having a negative effect on my havanas aging gracefully than beetles laying waste to my entire collection.


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