# The Great Moki Challenge Begins



## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

My package from Moki arrived today and I must say it was one of the most professionally packaged I have seen. The cigars were individually packaged with corresponding numbers then put into a bubble packed ziplock bag.

With no further delay, I will start with cigar #1

Rather than go into full reviews, I would prefer to give initial impressions and then make the all important call as far as Cuban or not and possibly try to guess the country of origin.

I will take this project seriously and put at least one a day, and more than likely 2.



Size: 5 1/2 X 48

Prelight draw was very smooth and light easy. Initial impressions are that this is a mild cigar that smokes nicely. I would say it would be a nice morning smoke. It reminds me a little of a Punch Gran Puro. First 1/3 has been ok, but I am not overly in love with this cigar


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## hova45 (Jun 17, 2007)

for some weird reason I know that cigar:chk:chk:ss


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

At he half way mark, the flavors have intensified slightly and the ash is a light gray and the burn is even. It remains a mild cigar and although it is enjoyable, I am nearly positive this IS NOT a Cuban cigar and I am guessing it is from Honduras.

At he 2/3 point, I am comfortable to say that i believe this is either a Domincan or Honduran cigar that probably retails for $7 and is not one I would keep in my rotation due to my preference for full flavored cigars with a little more complexity. Not a bad smoke though


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## Boston_Dude05 (Oct 10, 2006)

Hmm, this will be quite interesting...watching w/curiosity. It might be a 50 year old Monty for all that I know...:ss


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

First, for those of you who are not sure what this thread is about, here's a little background:

*Summary*

Peter (floydpink) has agreed to undertake an experiment in blind cigar taste testing, put together by yours truly, the evil Dr. Moki. 10 individually bagged & numbered unbanded cigars carefully plucked from the dungeons of Dr. Moki's humi-cave on on their way to him via USPS DC# 0306 2400 0000 6836 0147

As soon as they arrive, he will smoke them at his leisure, in any order he chooses, and post the results here. This is a great challenge to the subjectivity of taste!

*The Details*

Peter has agreed to not attempt to determine the specifics of any of the cigars by any means other than simply smoking them and tasting them (ie, no examining them, looking them up in references, etc.). This is about taste, not research! For each cigar, he will post:

1) The cigar number he smoked

2) Any tasting notes he chooses to share on the cigar as he smokes it

3) Whether he enjoyed the cigar or not, in the form a rating of the cigar from 1-10 (10 being the best)

4) His guess as to the country of origin of the cigar in terms of being Cuban or non-Cuban

5) Optionally, if he'd like to take a guess at the specific cigar he smoked, that's always a welcome addition

*The Mission*

The mission, should Peter choose to accept it... well, actually, he already did! -- is to be able to get the country of origin correct on 7 out of 10 of the cigars. After all, if you claim to love the taste of cigars from a particular country, you should be able to pick out that taste easily, right?

Remember that the baseline score of 5/10 correct is a coin-flop, the results you could expect to get if you just randomly guessed the origins in terms of Cuban/non-Cuban for each cigar. So our bar is set a tad higher than this (though arguably, one might insist on a perfect 10/10 score to make the aforementioned claims, we're a bit more lenient)!

*For Observers*

For people who are observing this blind taste testing, feel free to chime in, but please be respectful. Peter has accepted my challenge with class & gusto, and I can tell you from experience that what he is undertaking is far, far more difficult than you might imagine.

That's it -- let's have some fun with this! Blind taste tests are all about seeing if your taste buds are in line with your preconceptions. Blind taste tests are challenging, but always rewarding.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

floydpink said:


> At he half way mark, the flavors have intensified slightly and the ash is a light gray and the burn is even. It remains a mild cigar and although it is enjoyable, I am nearly positive this IS NOT a Cuban cigar and I am guessing it is from Honduras.
> 
> At he 2/3 point, I am comfortable to say that i believe this is either a Domincan or Honduran cigar that probably retails for $7 and is not one I would keep in my rotation due to my preference for full flavored cigars with a little more complexity. Not a bad smoke though


Can you post your rating for the cigar, from 1-10, as outlined below (point #3)?

.....

1) The cigar number he smoked

2) Any tasting notes he chooses to share on the cigar as he smokes it

3) Whether he enjoyed the cigar or not, in the form a rating of the cigar from 1-10 (10 being the best)

4) His guess as to the country of origin of the cigar in terms of being Cuban or non-Cuban

5) Optionally, if he'd like to take a guess at the specific cigar he smoked, that's always a welcome addition


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## yazzie (Dec 1, 2007)

From looking at the cap, best I can tell with that pic, it's not a CC


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

floydpink said:


> At he half way mark, the flavors have intensified slightly and the ash is a light gray and the burn is even. It remains a mild cigar and although it is enjoyable, I am nearly positive this IS NOT a Cuban cigar and I am guessing it is from Honduras.
> 
> At he 2/3 point, I am comfortable to say that i believe this is either a Domincan or Honduran cigar that probably retails for $7 and is not one I would keep in my rotation due to my preference for full flavored cigars with a little more complexity. Not a bad smoke though


_Note: Since floydpink didn't give me a numerical rating for this cigar, I'll just leave it as ??_

*Cigar #1 results*

floydpink says:

Cigar rating: ??/10
Origin guess: Domincan or Honduran
Cuban/non-Cuban: non-Cuban

Survey says:

Actual origin: Cuba
Cigar #1 is a: Montecristo Edmundo (5.31" x 52)

*Commentary:*

You're a bit off on your measurements (though you're not really _supposed_ to be measuring anyway  ), but I'm not very fond of Montecristo Edmundos either... though I'm surprised you found the flavor to be so light.

Even though I don't really care for the profile, most of the Edmundos that I've had have been a bit more robust than it sounds like you found this one to be. But I guess that's the famous Montecristo inconsistency for ya... 

Shake it off... it's early, no need to get frazzled! Tackle the next one one with vigor!

*Results so far:*

#1 - Cuban Montecristo Edmundo -- (??/10) guessed non-Cuban, Domincan or Honduran - _Incorrect_

*Score:* Cigars 1, floydpink 0


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## CigarMonkel (Jan 7, 2008)

THIS GAME IS AWESOME! its like a book with a cliffhanger WHAT CIGAR IS NEXT!? WHATS HE GONNA GUESS!? WHEN IS HE GONNA SMOKE IT!? WHERE CAN I RESERVE THE SEQUEL TO THIS BOOK!?

nice game btw moki = )


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

BTW, I should note that I'll be away on the SF Bay area on business from the 12th->19th, so please be patient with me in terms of getting back to you on the results during that timeframe.

I have the list in my computer, and I will have Internet access while there, but I will be a tad busy.


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## montecristo#2 (May 29, 2006)

moki said:


> BTW, I should note that I'll be away on the SF Bay area on business from the 12th->19th, so please be patient with me in terms of getting back to you on the results during that timeframe.
> 
> I have the list in my computer, and I will have Internet access while there, but I will be a tad busy.


[threadjack on]

You should check out the Cigar Bar and Grill - have to smoke on the patio, but a decent place assuming it is not raining. Otherwise, there is the Occidental, considerably smaller but at least you can smoke indoors.

[threadjack off]


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## MeNimbus (Dec 18, 2006)

I'll be checking on this thread on a regular basis. I find this test to be very interesting and intriguing. Go Floyd :ss


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## OtterAKL4987 (Jun 4, 2007)

This is great. A great idea guys and it should be very interesting! Thanks for taking the challenge floydpink.


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## str8edg (Dec 30, 2007)

This is such a great thread... blind tests, you got to love it.

Keep going floydpink just enjoy them as much as you can


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## boonedoggle (Jun 23, 2006)

Cool challenge Moki. The amount of information on your website is astounding.


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## BlueHavanaII (Feb 2, 2007)

:cp


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## Dblbogie (Nov 2, 2006)

Great idea! Thanks Moki for putting this on and thanks Floydpink for bearing your sole.


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

I am very surprised that was a Monte Edmundo because it did not appear to be triple capped. It was also nothing like the Petit Edmundos I enjoy.

In any event, it was a smooth cigar that i wasn't crazy about and will give a 5 out of 10.

On to the next cigar....

Cigar #2
Is a torpedo with a dark brown wrapper. I'm not gonna do sizes anymore, but this one sure looks like a Monte #4. Andrew, are you sending me ALL Cubans?

I'm going to the park with my dog and firing this one up.


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## wayner123 (Mar 29, 2007)

moki said:


> *The Details*
> 
> *Peter has agreed to not attempt to determine the specifics of any of the cigars by any means other than* *simply smoking them and tasting them* *(ie, no examining them, looking them up in references, etc.).* This is about taste, not research! For each cigar, he will post:


I don't want to be rude here, but for the sake of a true and honest test, I thought there was to be no examining them. This is what I brought up in the other thread about him looking at the cap, measuring for size, etc. I am very interested in this "study" but there are too many varibles that are not covered for it to give accurate results. Without the proper methods, this is no different than the Blind taste pass.


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## denverdog (Dec 10, 2007)

Great idea for a challenge guys. Its always interesting to see how different things are when a $15 "band" doesn't adorn the stick. :ss


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## wayner123 (Mar 29, 2007)

denverdog said:


> Great idea for a challenge guys. Its always interesting to see how different things are when a $15 "band" doesn't adorn the stick. :ss


Yes, that is true, but I don't think that was what this test was supposed to prove. The Blind taste PIF is the method for determining sticks without their band as to liking. This test, as far as I understand, was to determine country of origin based on taste. To determine if someone could tell the difference in a Cuban vs a NC.

But maybe I misunderstood.


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## denverdog (Dec 10, 2007)

wayner123 said:


> Yes, that is true, but I don't think that was what this test was supposed to prove. The Blind taste PIF is the method for determining sticks without their band as to liking. This test, as far as I understand, was to determine country of origin based on taste. To determine if someone could tell the difference in a Cuban vs a NC.
> 
> But maybe I misunderstood.


DOH! You are right, I mixed this up with another Moki thread I was reading regarding taste subjectivity. :tpd:


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## billybarue (Mar 20, 2006)

floydpink said:


> Cigar #2
> Is a torpedo with a dark brown wrapper. I'm not gonna do sizes anymore, but this one sure looks like a Monte #4 ??? Don't think this will help you out in anyway - but don't you mean #2. Andrew, are you sending me ALL Cubans?


Very interested in this thread. Thanks for taking up the challenge!! Tough work, as they say, but someone's gotta do it.

Also big thanks to Moki for setting this up. Easy to forget there was a 10 cigar bomb implicit in this thread/challenge - very generous of Moki. RG all-around I say.

Cheers and enjoy the smokes.

BillyBarue

PS: if you can teach your dog to clip your cigars that will keep you from examining the caps. Than just teach him to get you beers out of the fridge and you will be set for life :tu


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## bazookajoe (Nov 2, 2006)

moki said:


> _Note: Since floydpink didn't give me a numerical rating for this cigar, I'll just leave it as ??_
> 
> *Cigar #1 results*
> 
> ...


Moki, it's your challenge, so your rules and methods, but I'd like to throw my :2 in. I wouldn't reveal the true identity of the cigars until floydpink has reviewed all of them. Since the claim was that he could tell the difference and now knows he has already missed one, new variables are added (doubt, second guessing, more scrutiny to the appearance, etc.) which may detract from the pure objectivity of the reviews. Again, my opinion - your evilness will do as you see fit.


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## montecristo#2 (May 29, 2006)

bazookajoe said:


> Moki, it's your challenge, so your rules and methods, but I'd like to throw my :2 in. I wouldn't reveal the true identity of the cigars until floydpink has reviewed all of them. Since the claim was that he could tell the difference and now knows he has already missed one, new variables are added (doubt, second guessing, more scrutiny to the appearance, etc.) which may detract from the pure objectivity of the reviews. Again, my opinion - your evilness will do as you see fit.


:tpd:

I agree, assuming the assumption is you sent him five or each. If you did not send him five of each, it really doesn't matter.

Although, it is a lot more entertaining to know as we go along.


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

Edit to follow procedure:
Cigar #1 results

floydpink says:

Cigar rating: ??/10 I give this a 6/10 and won't be ordering these
Origin guess: Domincan or Honduran
Cuban/non-Cuban: non-Cuban

Survey says:

Actual origin: Cuba
Cigar #1 is a: Montecristo Edmundo (5.31" x 52)

I would prefer to know the results as I go, if that is not too much to ask. No need to worry about me shaking it off or second guessing.

Now for the #2 review

Rating 8/10

Country of origin; CUBA!!

This was a fantastic cigar i just finished to the nub.

It was perfectly rolled and the burn was remarkable. It burned evenly with a dark gray ash and started with slight floral tones that had me wondering if it was Dominican.

It built to a medium body and became spicy and left the flavor long after the cigar finished.

I thorughly enjoyed this cigar and will be buying more if it is not already in my rotation, which i think it is.

Anyway, this seemed very Cuban to me and i don't know if I can wait to smoke 8 more to know the results.


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## Corona Gigante-cl (Sep 8, 2005)

Quick question for Andrew. Were these cigars randomly selected?--or did you put some thought and effort into "stumping the chump?"


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

I resemble that remark. "stumping the chump?"


Seriuously, I was wondering the same thing and am beginning to wonder how miserably I might fail......

Perhaps it is a good thing to get slapped off my branch and reconsider my opinions of Non Cuban cigars. I still have a chance.


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## Corona Gigante-cl (Sep 8, 2005)

floydpink said:


> I resemble that remark. "stumping the chump?"


Lol! Got it from "Click and Clack, the tappet brothers." No offense intended. :tu

It's funny. A couple of years ago, I would have sworn I could ace this test. The last year or so, I'm not so sure anymore. I don't know if it's the blends that are changing, or my palate, but I'm a lot less confident of being able to spot the country of origin in a blind taste test.

You're doing a great job and we all salute your courage to take one for the team!


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

I'm beginning to wonder if some of it might be mental, and if peanut butter were $100 an ounce, if I would pay it?

Nevertheless, I want to hear from Moki on the second cigar.

I am under the impression that I just smoked a very nice Cuban cigar that i would normally reserve for a special occasion that probably never arrives.


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## yayson (Aug 21, 2006)

good job on the reviews, keep it real man!

I did a blind trade/test with a gorilla a few months back and was shocked at my discoveries, my favorite of 5 sticks was a combination of 2 of my least favorite things, Rocky Patel and Connecticut wrappers.

I now smoke more RP products, maybe not more but I don't snub them I guess.

Embarrassment is inevitable, you're a man among men for taking up the challenge. In public no less


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## bonggoy (Mar 9, 2006)

floydpink said:


> I am very surprised that was a Monte Edmundo because it did not appear to be triple capped. It was also nothing like the Petit Edmundos I enjoy.
> 
> In any event, it was a smooth cigar that i wasn't crazy about and will give a 5 out of 10.
> 
> ...


You meant Monte #2, right?


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

bazookajoe said:


> Moki, it's your challenge, so your rules and methods, but I'd like to throw my :2 in. I wouldn't reveal the true identity of the cigars until floydpink has reviewed all of them. Since the claim was that he could tell the difference and now knows he has already missed one, new variables are added (doubt, second guessing, more scrutiny to the appearance, etc.) which may detract from the pure objectivity of the reviews. Again, my opinion - your evilness will do as you see fit.


Suggestions appreciated, guys, but I got it under control. Sit back and enjoy the ride!


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

Corona Gigante said:


> Quick question for Andrew. Were these cigars randomly selected?--or did you put some thought and effort into "stumping the chump?"


I did put some thought into it, so they aren't just randomly picked cigars, but it's nothing extraordinary.


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## jloutlaw (Feb 22, 2007)

Great idea. I'm enjoying this thread and eager to see the results.


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## rumballs (Mar 15, 2005)

yayson said:


> I did a blind trade/test with a gorilla a few months back and was shocked at my discoveries, my favorite of 5 sticks was a combination of 2 of my least favorite things, Rocky Patel and Connecticut wrappers.


Blind reviews are always tough.
I had smoked some Punch cigars but not a lot, and never had a Black Prince.
First I did a blind review where I was sent two of the same stick. I thought they tasted like Partagas or Punch, and ultimately chose Partagas as my first choice. It was a Black Prince. I felt ok about my palate since I had thought of Punch.
Then within 6 months, I did some other blind reviews of single sticks. 2 of them ended up being Black Prince, and I TOTALLY screwed up the marca on both (and guessed a different one each time - Upmann Super Corona or Mag 46, then HdM Epi1 or JL1).


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

floydpink said:


> Now for the #2 review
> 
> Rating 8/10
> 
> ...


hehe... I think this one is going to surprise you.... 

*Cigar #2 results*

floydpink says:

Cigar rating: 8/10
Origin guess: Cuba
Cuban/non-Cuban: Cuban

Survey says:

Actual origin: Nicaragua
Cigar #2 is a: Don Pepin Blue Label Imperiales Torpedo (6" x 52)

*Commentary:*

No need to reserve this one for a special occasion, Peter! These cigars go for $7 a stick, and are non-Cuban cigars rolled and blended by Don Pepin.

Again, another interesting one! I actually find these cigars to have a bit of a salty/menthol taste to 'em (I encountered one in a blind tasting I'm doing myself right now).

Does the cigar taste good because you think it's Cuban, or does the fact that you think the cigar is from Cuba make it taste good? We shall see! The cigars are ahead, but you have plenty of time to pull it out mang!

*Results so far:*

#1 - Cuban Montecristo Edmundo -- (6/10) guessed non-Cuban, Domincan or Honduran - _Incorrect_
#2 - Don Pepin Blue Label Imperiales Torpedo -- (8/10) guessed Cuban - _Incorrect_

*Score:* Cigars 2, floydpink 0


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

bonggoy said:


> You meant Monte #2, right?


Yes, I did. My head is spinning.

unfreakin-believable! I swear I nearly guessed a Don Pepin due to the roll and spiciness, I swear I am serious.

looks like I will have to nearly run the table to win this one.

Can I get a mulligan?

I am not overly surprised on this one as I find Pepins to be as close to a Habano as anything.

The spiciness was typical DPG. Darn it!


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

floydpink said:


> Yes, I did. My head is spinning.
> 
> unfreakin-believable! I swear I nearly guessed a Don Pepin due to the roll and spiciness, I swear I am serious.
> 
> looks like I will have to nearly run the table to win this one.


At least you found a really nice cigar that you enjoy the taste of, and isn't expensive or hard to find.... and isn't from Cuba 

This should be cause for celebration, not mourning!


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## JCK (Nov 9, 2006)

moki said:


> Actual origin: Nicaragua
> Cigar #2 is a: Don Pepin Blue Label Imperiales Torpedo (6" x 52)


Hey Andrew.. I'm curious.. how long has this particular example been in your humidor? I've noticed with other Pepin blends that they do seem to get much better after at least 6 months of rest.

Was wondering if this was relatively fresh or a few years old.

Thanks,
Ji


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

khubli said:


> Hey Andrew.. I'm curious.. how long has this particular example been in your humidor? I've noticed with other Pepin blends that they do seem to get much better after at least 6 months of rest.
> 
> Was wondering if this was relatively fresh or a few years old.
> 
> ...


I'm honestly not sure... it was traded to me about 5 months ago, perhaps... not sure how long the person who gave it to me hung onto it.


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

moki said:


> At least you found a really nice cigar that you enjoy the taste of, and isn't expensive or hard to find.... and isn't from Cuba
> 
> This should be cause for celebration, not mourning!


Andrew, you are a true gentleman. I'm not so sure if the shoes were switched, I wouldn't be telling you to get ready to change your signature to "clueless cigar smoker" as I have offered and might be doing.

I kinda feel like a young Jedi at this point being lead into a new galaxy.


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## mitro (Mar 13, 2007)

6 months does wonders for the Blues particularly. When I first got some they were ridiculously harsh and spicy. Now they are among the best I have.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

floydpink said:


> Andrew, you are a true gentleman. I'm not so sure if the shoes were switched, I wouldn't be telling you to get ready to change your signature to "clueless cigar smoker" as I have offered and might be doing.
> 
> I kinda feel like a young Jedi at this point being lead into a new galaxy.


It's just that taste is a very, very slippery thing. Time and time again, experts have been confounded when it comes to blind taste testing of anything... water, wine, beer, cigars... so there's no reason to feel bad at all. Check some of these links out:

*The Subjectivity of Wine*

"Expert" wine tasting: *Round #1* -- *Round #2* -- *Round #3*

"Expert" water tasting: *Round #1* -- *Round #2* -- *Round #3*

I mean, tap water from municipal water supplies keeps winning in blind taste tests, yet people are paying $3 a bottle for Evian... there's definitely a logical disconnect there. People are buying by brand or label, not their taste buds. I like the statement from the last "water" article: _ In the final analysis, the price is all that separates them_

When it comes to taste, the most important organ in your body is your brain, and the preconceptions it carries along with it. Your tongue and nose are mere appendages.


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

Tommorow, I will try to taste 2. Tonight I am headed to a non-smoking event after I get off 
work.

Oh... and... hehe.. you said "organ".


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## rx2010 (Jan 4, 2007)

this is my new favorite thread


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## str8edg (Dec 30, 2007)

I agree... I love this thread and it's only getting started. As a VERY new cigar smoker I find myself wondering what to buy and what not to buy... it's a bit harder for me as I have no B&M anywhere, so everything has to be done online. So if I buy crap I am stuck smoking crap. Which IMHO is why I bought Cubans first. I just figured that I would not be disappointed. But now I have a guy who seems to know cigars and says that the last one he smoked was a 8/10. I say, it must be a good smoke. And I can get it for around $150 a box... and the Cubans that I were going to buy are around $250! Damn!! Thanks for this thread, it has been something I have been wondering about.

Don Pepin Blues are on my short list for sure.

Thank you to both floydpink for smoking them and writing reviews and thank you to Moki for making it happen and being such a class act in the process. If I could hit your RG (to new and not enough of a hammer yet) I sure would! It is stuff like this that makes this forum the great place it is.


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

str8edg said:


> I agree... I love this thread and it's only getting started. As a VERY new cigar smoker I find myself wondering what to buy and what not to buy... it's a bit harder for me as I have no B&M anywhere, so everything has to be done online. So if I buy crap I am stuck smoking crap. Which IMHO is why I bought Cubans first. I just figured that I would not be disappointed. But now I have a guy who seems to know cigars and says that the last one he smoked was a 8/10. I say, it must be a good smoke. And I can get it for around $150 a box... and the Cubans that I were going to buy are around $250! Damn!! Thanks for this thread, it has been something I have been wondering about.
> 
> Don Pepin Blues are on my short list for sure.
> 
> Thank you to both floydpink for smoking them and writing reviews and thank you to Moki for making it happen and being such a class act in the process. If I could hit your RG (to new and not enough of a hammer yet) I sure would! It is stuff like this that makes this forum the great place it is.


0-2 and you still have that impression? Send me your address, I have something for you.


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## gamayrouge (Dec 21, 2007)

Moki, you do ever think that posting the origin will invalidate this testing? I mean if 5 are NC and 5 are Habanos logic dictates that if I the first 4 I smoke are NC's and there are 6 left, odds are if I guess Cuban then I'll get it right 5 out of 6 times...

Just a thought.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

gamayrouge said:


> Moki, you do ever think that posting the origin will invalidate this testing? I mean if 5 are NC and 5 are Habanos logic dictates that if I the first 4 I smoke are NC's and there are 6 left, odds are if I guess Cuban then I'll get it right 5 out of 6 times...
> 
> Just a thought.


Again, I have this under control.

I never stated how many of the cigars in the test were Cuban, and how many of the cigars were non-Cuban. So the above does not apply.


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## gamayrouge (Dec 21, 2007)

moki said:


> Again, I have this under control.
> 
> I never stated how many of the cigars in the test were Cuban, and how many of the cigars were non-Cuban. So the above does not apply.


Gotcha! :tu


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

str8edg said:


> I agree... I love this thread and it's only getting started. As a VERY new cigar smoker I find myself wondering what to buy and what not to buy... it's a bit harder for me as I have no B&M anywhere, so everything has to be done online. So if I buy crap I am stuck smoking crap. Which IMHO is why I bought Cubans first. I just figured that I would not be disappointed. But now I have a guy who seems to know cigars and says that the last one he smoked was a 8/10. I say, it must be a good smoke. And I can get it for around $150 a box... and the Cubans that I were going to buy are around $250! Damn!! Thanks for this thread, it has been something I have been wondering about.


Personal taste is exactly that: personal. Just as you might not like a particular type of food, but others might love it, so is it with cigars. As such, there is no right or wrong when it comes to what cigars you enjoy.


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## nuke999 (Nov 10, 2006)

Thanks to both of you for doing this. I'm enjoying it.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

floydpink said:


> Tommorow, I will try to taste 2. Tonight I am headed to a non-smoking event after I get off
> work.
> 
> Oh... and... hehe.. you said "organ".


Too bad you can't get any more in today -- but there's no rush. Enjoy the experience!


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## str8edg (Dec 30, 2007)

moki said:


> Personal taste is exactly that: personal. Just as you might not like a particular type of food, but others might love it, so is it with cigars. As such, there is no right or wrong when it comes to what cigars you enjoy.


So.... I should stop reading this thread and buy one of everything and see what I like.. got it!

Can you write a letter to my wife to explain! 



floydpink said:


> 0-2 and you still have that impression? Send me your address, I have something for you.


Brother, you have the guts to accept the challege. To me in is not important of you get 0-10 right. You said you could tell, but who cares if you end up being wrong. You get to try 10 (maybe) new cigars, maybe get a new fav and you get in to introduce them to others who may not try them on their own. I wish I had the guts to do what you are doing... I would not be able to tell the top cigar in the world from a White Owl! Give me some time, but right now... I am just learning.

Like I said before thanks to both of you for this thread... I love it


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

moki said:


> Too bad you can't get any more in today -- but there's no rush. Enjoy the experience!


EDIT: MY PLANS HAVE BEEN PUSHED BACK AND i WILL HAVE TEST 3 DONE BY 10 PM TONIGHT.

(FRIDAY)

I like my chances with this cigar.


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## Jbailey (Nov 9, 2006)

rx2010 said:


> this is my new favorite thread


Indeed!

Thank you Moki for a very interesting and informative thread. I've been wanting to try A blind taste test around the shop here.

Can't wait to see rest.

Happy tasting FloydPink


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

REVIEW OF CIGAR #3

Ok, this appears to be a triple capped churchill with a light brown wrapper that is well constructed and has a nice pre light aroma to it.

The triple cap has me thinking habano, but the last one did too, and we saw how that went.... I'm gonna go fire this up.

Also, you might notice some green spots in the wrapper. I have been seeing these on a few of my Cubans lately and am told it was water spots during the curing, but am not sure. More indication I might be about to smoke a nice long Habano..


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

First impressions;

This is one of the mildest cigars i have ever smoked. The cigar has a spongy feel to it and I feel as though I am smoking mostly air. 

If this is a Cuban, it is a brand I am not familiar with and definitely is lacking the "twang" you hear so much about.

I am enjoying a scotch on the rocks and would normally switch this cigar for something like a Party Short, but for the sake of science, will finish this cigar.

It is not a dog rocket by any means, just not a cigar that fits my tastes. It is a night and day difference between that delicious Pepin i had earlier today.


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## gamayrouge (Dec 21, 2007)

Can't wait to see the results!


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

Curiously, the ash is burning as close to a black ash as I can recall smoking.
The flavor is building somewhat, but I am convinced this is not a Cuban and am going to probably never smoke another one.

I am now at the halfway mark and have not seen much in the way of flavor and the sponginess seems to have increased a bit. I have also had to relight twice. I am wondering if there may be a humidity issue with this cigar.
I keep checking to see if Moki has entered the room.

This is the type of cigar I would pass out at a party to my friends who smoke cigars once a year and I am beginning to think it is one of the bundle type cigars that Famous sells for $45 for 25.


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

I am nearing the 3/4 mark and have seen enough to make my conclusion.

Country of Origin: NEVER SEEN CUBA. I will guess Honduras for the heck of it.
Rating: 4/10

I did not enjoy this cigar and am gonna smoke one I was just gifted instead and pray Andrew is not offended.


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

I am looking forward to #4 as it is a triple cap with a pigtail, and looks like a Trinidad.:tu


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

It looks like I have some time on my hands and might be staying in and #4 looks good and is a short smoke, so I figured i would end the night on a good note, so here it goes...



my initial impression of this one is that besides a crack in the foot, it looks perfect and although I am not too familiar with Trinidads, it looks almost like a Coloniales, but is too short by my calculations as it falls short of the 5 and something inches of that one. Off to the porch I go...


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## yourchoice (Jun 25, 2006)

This is a fantastic read. Thanks to both of you...Awesome :tu


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

Hello and welcome Moki!!!!


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

First impressions:

Glory Be! Gobs of delicious white smoke and lots of flavor. This is gonna be good.

At the 1/3 mark, I am really enjoying this cigar. It is a medium bodied cigar that i am guessing has been aged a bit. It is smooth, well constructed and has many flavors that make me think I am smoking a Cuban.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

floydpink said:


> Curiously, the ash is burning as close to a black ash as I can recall smoking.
> The flavor is building somewhat, but I am convinced this is not a Cuban and am going to probably never smoke another one.
> 
> I am now at the halfway mark and have not seen much in the way of flavor and the sponginess seems to have increased a bit. I have also had to relight twice. I am wondering if there may be a humidity issue with this cigar.
> ...


First, let me say that I hope you're wrong about these cigars sucking... because they are one of my favorite marcas... more below...

*Cigar #3 results*

floydpink says:

Cigar rating: 4/10
Origin guess: Honduras
Cuban/non-Cuban: non-Cuban

Survey says:

Actual origin: Cuba
Cigar #3 is a: Ramon Allones Estupendos (2006 RE Asia-Pacific) (7" x 49)

*Commentary:*

I have two cabs of 50 of these bad boys laying down the deep sleep nap. I hope my experience with them is better than yours, as the Ramon Allones marca is one of my favorite Cuban brands. If you'd hand these out at parties, you're more generous than I am, because these suckers were expensive, and they are a limited release.

I'm truly sorry to hear you didn't enjoy it... I'm not sure if that's representative of the regional release as a whole, or just this particular cigar. I hope for my sake the latter, because this is *not* a bundle cigar! 

Chin up mang -- and remember to enjoy yourself during our little experiment! 

*Results so far:*

#1 - Cuban Montecristo Edmundo -- (6/10) guessed non-Cuban, Domincan or Honduran - _Incorrect_
#2 - Don Pepin Blue Label Imperiales Torpedo -- (8/10) guessed Cuban - _Incorrect_
#3 - Ramon Allones Estupendos (2006 RE Asia-Pacific) -- (4/10) guessed non-Cuban, Honduran - _Incorrect_

*Score:* Cigars 3, floydpink 0


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

floydpink said:


> Hello and welcome Moki!!!!


Herrow!  I'm heading home, will be back on in 30 mins or so to see what you thought of cigar #4!


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

moki said:


> First, let me say that I hope you're wrong about these cigars sucking... because they are one of my favorite marcas... more below...
> 
> *Cigar #3 results*
> 
> ...


I am stunned. Ramon Allones is one of my favorites and I would have actively seeked this one if it wasn't a blind taste. If you told me I would have trouble finishing a RA, I would have laughed.
It should be noted that I have only been seriously smoking cigars for about a year and am beginning to wonder if I will get any right here. I am also wondering if i am qualified to be doing this test as there are many more qualified gorillas here and it is obvious you have chosen some very nice cigars for this test.

I am humbled, bowed, but not yet broken.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

floydpink said:


> I am stunned. Ramon Allones is one of my favorites and I would have actively seeked this one if it wasn't a blind taste. If you told me I would have trouble finishing a RA, I would have laughed.


You and me both mang... I love Ramon Allones cigars as a rule. Sorry to hear you had a poor experience with it, but it just goes to show that just because you don't enjoy a cigar, that doesn't mean it ain't Cuban! 

The triple cap and the lack of perfectly cured tobacco (the green spot) was a pretty good clue it was Cuban... it's unfortunate that the taste disagreed so much with what this marca usually embodies.

I really hope I have a better experience with the RA Estupendos that I have aging... this one is not from either box.

MSRP = $25 per cigar on these bad boys!



> It should be noted that I have only been seriously smoking cigars for about a year and am beginning to wonder if I will get any right here. I am also wondering if i am qualified to be doing this test as there are many more qualified gorillas here and it is obvious you have chosen some very nice cigars for this test.
> 
> I am humbled, bowed, but not yet broken.


I still believe that a good wine is a wine you enjoy drinking, and a good cigar is a cigar that you enjoy smoking. The fancy bands, origins, etc., don't mean a whole lot if you don't like the product in question.

As such, you are the world's leading foremost authority on your tastes, and what you prefer. No one else is better at it than you are. But perhaps there are some perceptive cobwebs to clean out is all. 

It's arguable that when you know what something is ahead of time, that may influence what you think of it. If you know you're smoking something rare/special, perhaps you'll be more inclined to say you like it, or you'll slow things down and pay more attention to the tastes that are there regardless.

Either way, the point is that blind taste tests allow you to see where your perceptions meet your taste buds. 

One thing I will say is that you should never judge an entire line of cigars by sampling just one (or even a few) specimens. Hand blended and rolled cigars just have too much variance for that. Also I truly believe what I stated here:

http://www.vitolas.net/displayimage.php?pos=-1037

...in terms of what affects the taste of a cigar. I could give you the same cigar on two different days, under two different sets of conditions, and I promise you that the taste you'd experience would be different.


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## JCK (Nov 9, 2006)

moki said:


> I really hope I have a better experience with the RA Estupendos that I have aging... this one is not from either box.
> 
> MSRP = $25 per cigar on these bad boys!


:ss The following words are meant as just a ribbing and not meant to be taken seriously... because I know you'd be certain of your cigar's provenance.

Sure it wasn't a fugazi?


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

khubli said:


> :ss The following words are meant as just a ribbing and not meant to be taken seriously... because I know you'd be certain of your cigar's provenance.
> 
> Sure it wasn't a fugazi?


100% sure, yes. I can even tell you the (highly respectable) cigar shop in Asia it came from, and who personally picked it out of the humidor. Also the bands are quite authentic as well.


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

Well, at the halfway point of 4, I am very happy with this cigar and am nearly ready to report.

#3 will be an experience to remember. I cherish my RASS and RASCC's and find them to have an earthy taste and often the green spots.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

floydpink said:


> Well, at the halfway point of 4, I am very happy with this cigar and am nearly ready to report.
> 
> #3 will be an experience to remember.


Awesome, you savor and enjoy it (glad to hear this one appears to be going over better than the last one), and I'll be on in a bit when I get home for the results.


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

#4 conclusion

I probably should go the opposite but..

Country: Cuba darnit. It had a triple cap and had much I the flavor i attribute to the region

Score: 7/10

I'm afraid to look.


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## JCK (Nov 9, 2006)

moki said:


> 100% sure, yes. I can even tell you the (highly respectable) cigar shop in Asia it came from, and who personally picked it out of the humidor. Also the bands are quite authentic as well.


I wouldn't expect anything less! I picked up a few of these in Korea last April. I'm almost tempted to light one up tonight to see what my experience is like with this cigar.


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

khubli said:


> I wouldn't expect anything less! I picked up a few of these in Korea last April. I'm almost tempted to light one up tonight to see what my experience is like with this cigar.


Please do for the sake of my sanity.

I'm beginning to rethink my strategy to where if it is a triple cap it's Cuban unless it has the spicy Pepin taste.


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## neoflex (Jan 3, 2006)

This thread is absolutely amazing. Really enjoying this one. Should have started my freelance work a half hour ago. I just know I am going to keep logging on to see if Moki responds. Nice job putting this together Moki and nice way of stepping up Floyd as this can open the door for some ribbing.:tu Very interesting nonetheless.


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

I don't mind the ribbing and deserve it.

Earlier this week, I attended a carnival in my town and boldly stated that my 3 year old daughter would have a prize from the softball toss due to the fact that i worked the same booth as a young man on the boardwalk on the Jersey Shore for a Summer job and had it aced.

After $25 worth of failures, and much laughing from the spectators, I had to stop at Walmart and buy one on the way home.

This will be easier to overcome and the lessons will be priceless.

I still have a shot at 7 for 10 unless #4 goes like 1,2,and 3.

You can bet Moki will be responding soon as he just entered the building.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

floydpink said:


> I don't mind the ribbing and deserve it.
> 
> Earlier this week, I attended a carnival in my town and boldly stated that my 3 year old daughter would have a prize from the softball toss due to the fact that i worked the same booth as a young man on the boardwalk on the Jersey Shore for a Summer job and had it aced.
> 
> ...


Coming right up, sir...

BTW, I don't view this as your "failure" at all... I view it as the failure of the "Cuban taste" or "Cuban preference" memes. I think it has very little to do with you, or your experience. I've seen VERY experienced cigar smokers (Habanos) fall flat on their faces too.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

floydpink said:


> Glory Be! Gobs of delicious white smoke and lots of flavor. This is gonna be good.
> 
> At the 1/3 mark, I am really enjoying this cigar. It is a medium bodied cigar that i am guessing has been aged a bit. It is smooth, well constructed and has many flavors that make me think I am smoking a Cuban.
> 
> ...


_The good news is that we agree that these are great little smokes... the bad news, well... keep reading..._

*Cigar #4 results*

floydpink says:

Cigar rating: 7/10
Origin guess: Cuba
Cuban/non-Cuban: Cuban

Survey says:

Actual origin: Nicaragua
Cigar #2 is a: Cabaiguan WCD120 (scroll down) (4 5/8" x 42)

*Commentary:*

This is one of the few "trick" cigars in the mix, in that it looks damn close to being a Trinidad Reyes in terms of the vitola, pigtail, triple-cap, etc. However it's actually a special release of Pete Johnson's fantastic line of non-Cuban cigars, the Cabaiguan.

I really like this line of cigars; the CT shade wrapper and milder blend than the much-hype Tatuajes I think works really well. You would not be the first nor the last to get this one wrong, but on the plus side, go buy some Cabaiguans from your local retailer. I bet you'll enjoy 'em.

The foot cracked on this one when I pried it out of the box (they are rather tightly packed in there). I didn't really want to break open a box of these, as I have them down for aging, but I knew it'd be a perfect cigar to throw in the mix. 

We've reached a watershed mark in the testing... I'll comment more on that in a separate post.

*Results so far:*

#1 - Cuban Montecristo Edmundo -- (6/10) guessed non-Cuban, Domincan or Honduran - _Incorrect_
#2 - Don Pepin Blue Label Imperiales Torpedo -- (8/10) guessed Cuban - _Incorrect_
#3 - Ramon Allones Estupendos (2006 RE Asia-Pacific) -- (4/10) guessed non-Cuban, Honduran - _Incorrect_
#4 - Cabaiguan WCD120 (scroll down) - (7/10) guessed Cuban - _Incorrect_

*Score:* Cigars 4, floydpink 0


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

moki said:


> _The good news is that we agree that these are great little smokes... the bad news, well... keep reading..._
> 
> *Cigar #4 results*
> 
> ...


We certainly have and at this point, success in the 7 for 10 fashion is mathematically impossible. My personal goal is to get the majority of the remaining cigars correct.
I'm going to bed. Goodnight.


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## RJT (Feb 12, 2005)

I thought I was crazy when I noticed I started purchasing more Pepin stuff than Habanos latley. :ss I have to admit his stuff is a real nice sub for Habanos for the price. :tu


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

So as per our agreement, having gotten 4 cigars wrong in terms of country of origin, it is now impossible to achieve the 7/10 correct watermark, and you are officially no longer allowed to state:



> For me, give me a just about any Cuban cigar and I'll be twice as happy and probably have paid half the price.


In your words:



> I will accept this wager and will hold up my end of the deal if I lose. In other words, I will shut my yap forever about how rare, aged or not, Dominican tobacco will NEVER be like Cuban tobacco, no matter how fancy the name or band is.


...and perhaps more importantly, your eyes have been opened a bit to how really difficult blind cigar tasting is, and how incredibly subjective taste really is.

As I said before, I don't view this as your failing at all... but rather the failing of preconceptions regarding any mythical "Cuban cigar profile" or the inherent superiority of Cuban cigars (even to those who profess to love them exclusively). It's clearly not quite so simple, and anyone who claims it is that simple, well, they need to be put to the test too. 

I wouldn't feel bad at all... experienced wine sommeliers get these things wrong all of the time too, when they are put to the test in blind taste testings.

Indeed, it'll be interesting to see how the overall ratings stack up on the Cuban vs. non-Cuban cigars in this taste test. Thus far, the cigar you've given the *highest rating* to is in fact an inexpensive non-Cuban cigar (the Don Pepin Blue Label Torpedo). And the cigar that has received the *worst rating* was in fact a very expensive Cuban cigar (the Ramon Allones Estupendo RE 2006).

It goes to show ya never can tell...  And now you can relax and enjoy the rest of this blind taste test thoroughly, without having any pressure on your shoulders.

You still have some very interesting cigars to come in the taste test... so enjoy it!


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## Bax (Sep 12, 2007)

THis has my vote for the best thread ever! Keep it up, the pressure is on... well, since you can't win now I guess the pressure is off so just enjoy the last of them. :ss


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

floydpink said:


> We certainly have and at this point, success in the 7 for 10 fashion is mathematically impossible. My personal goal is to get the majority of the remaining cigars correct.
> I'm going to bed. Goodnight.


BTW, that Cabaiguan WCD120 is actually not aged... it's from 2007. I think it will just get better and better with some real age on it. Thus my desire to kick back of a few boxes of 'em and let them age.


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## str8edg (Dec 30, 2007)

I am so glad I started the thread Opus and Anejo that started this challenge... this has been the most fun I have had in a while.. I for one have had my eyes opened so far.


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## Jbailey (Nov 9, 2006)

I was watching this thread tonight at the smoke shop while watching a few movies. The last cigar I smoked was a Don Pepin Blue Label Torpedo because of this thread. Great smoke with about 5-6 months age on it.

Can't wait to see whats next.


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## Puffin Fresh (Nov 1, 2006)

moki said:


> BTW, that Cabaiguan WCD120 is actually not aged... it's from 2007. I think it will just get better and better with some real age on it. Thus my desire to kick back of a few boxes of 'em and let them age.


I could just wait until tomorrow to find out, but do you happen know if they sold out of those already at Draper's?


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## JCK (Nov 9, 2006)

floydpink said:


> Please do for the sake of my sanity.
> 
> I'm beginning to rethink my strategy to where if it is a triple cap it's Cuban unless it has the spicy Pepin taste.


I just finished an Estupendo. This example came from the Habanos lounge in the Intercontinental Grand Hotel in Seoul. I had a good experience with this smoke, although I put it down pre-maturely. Smoking outside in the cold can be distracting. This is a smoke better saved for a warm sunny afternoon where you can devote a few hours to it.

The Estupendo was not quite as bold as the RA Beli I smoked two nights ago. It is very reminiscent in the 2nd half to some 06 RASCC I've smoked recently. Probably on the lighter side of medium, the flavor profile comes alive if you take your time with the smoke. This smoke has a great finish in my opinion. I think these are coming along nicely only to get better in years to come.


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## wayner123 (Mar 29, 2007)

Well that was interesting. I followed this thread from birth. I did not think it would end this quickly, but I am glad it served the purpose that it has.

Now to my pressing points of why this may have not been the best method and also to my thoughts on this type of testing. (please don't fail me for my opinions as that is all that is, my opinion )

The only true way this could have been a "true" blind test, would have been for the subject to not have examined the cigars in any way. Vision did play a role in this as some type of determination to size, color, etc was exhibited. That is a major factor. The only real way would have been to do the test blindfolded in some manner or at least for the cigars to have been pre-clipped and smoked, with no visual examination of the cigar itself. Pre conceived ideas come about once one starts to determine sizes (this is a known way of determining fake CC's), and even more ideas when those sizes and appearance are intermixed. 

Also, I am not knocking the subject's experience as I am more than likely even less experienced in my ISOM knowledge. But pinkfloyd himself admitted his limitations to this.

So then, all that said, I still think this was a good exercise. I am knowledgeable in studies and scientific process (double blinds, psuedo's, etc.) And I think that in the future it needs to be re-worked to determine more factual results. 

Again this is just my opinion so take it with a grain of salt. :tu


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## JCK (Nov 9, 2006)

It's interesting that with the RA Estupendo all of Floyd's visual indications pointed him to a Habano, however his final conclusion was that it was not. I'm not sure that the visual inspection was much of a factor in the testing of the four cigars smoked other than it may have created some doubt in his mind of what Floyd was smoking.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

Sauer Grapes said:


> I could just wait until tomorrow to find out, but do you happen know if they sold out of those already at Draper's?


They are looooooong gone.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

khubli said:


> I just finished an Estupendo. This example came from the Habanos lounge in the Intercontinental Grand Hotel in Seoul. I had a good experience with this smoke, although I put it down pre-maturely. Smoking outside in the cold can be distracting. This is a smoke better saved for a warm sunny afternoon where you can devote a few hours to it.
> 
> The Estupendo was not quite as bold as the RA Beli I smoked two nights ago. It is very reminiscent in the 2nd half to some 06 RASCC I've smoked recently. Probably on the lighter side of medium, the flavor profile comes alive if you take your time with the smoke. This smoke has a great finish in my opinion. I think these are coming along nicely only to get better in years to come.


Thank god. 

I am hoping that these will end up like Ramon Allones Gigantes: really benefitting from some age.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

wayner123 said:


> Well that was interesting. I followed this thread from birth. I did not think it would end this quickly, but I am glad it served the purpose that it has.


Over?? Are you kiddin' me? It isn't over. This was not about just the 7/10 wager, this is a blind taste test, where the real beneficiary is the person doing the tasting.

That's because they get to see where their preconceptions meet their taste buds, and have a fun time doing it.

This is not over by any means, he has 6 more cigars to enjoy without the baggage of preconceived notions (and believe me, there are some interesting cigars to come!  ).



> The only true way this could have been a "true" blind test, would have been for the subject to not have examined the cigars in any way. Vision did play a role in this as some type of determination to size, color, etc was exhibited. That is a major factor. The only real way would have been to do the test blindfolded in some manner or at least for the cigars to have been pre-clipped and smoked, with no visual examination of the cigar itself. Pre conceived ideas come about once one starts to determine sizes (this is a known way of determining fake CC's), and even more ideas when those sizes and appearance are intermixed.


Empirical data certainly can be a factor; but given that there are a number of cigars that will mislead people if they use purely empirical data (such as the WCD, which looks an awful lot like a Trinidad Reyes), I consider this to be a wash with a well-chosen selection of cigars.

In any event, as I've tried to make clear previously in the thread, I'm really not particularly interested in refining the process used here; if you have other notions, you're free to start your own blind taste test and use your own methodology. This is my blind taste taste: if someone claims to "love Cuban cigars" or "love the taste of Cuban cigars" and uses that broad-brush verbiage, then they should be able to pick out a Cuban cigar when they taste one.

If they can't, then they probably need to revise their prejudices, and be more particular about the statements that they make. I think 7/10 is a reasonable "comfort level" in that it's above random guessing, and I think empirical data can hinder as well as aid, so...

...that's my test. If you find fault with it, that's fine... start your own test. But let's let this one finish, please. It is by no means over! The fun has just begun, now that the pressure is off!

Have you ever heard the expression "The journey is the reward"? That definitely applies here... the reward is not getting the guesses right or wrong, but rather the experience and insights you gain along the way. The journey has just begun!


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## heatmiser (Nov 28, 2007)

Hat's off to Moki for handing over such nice cigars for this test. I have never smoked a Cuban cigar before and always wondered about the comparison and if they are truly better than non-Cubans.


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## JCK (Nov 9, 2006)

Andrew, I wonder if you were tricky and threw something like a Pepin JJ Salamones or a Tatuaje RC184 or RC233 into the mix... :]


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

heatmiser said:


> Hat's off to Moki for handing over such nice cigars for this test. I have never smoked a Cuban cigar before and always wondered about the comparison and if they are truly better than non-Cubans.


The real answer is: it depends. It depends on the cigar in question (not just the marca/vitola, but the particular cigar). It depends on the person's personal taste. It depends on the person's preconceptions. It depends on a great number of things:

http://www.vitolas.net/displayimage.php?pos=-1037

...so beware of broad, prejudicial statements. They are rarely correct. A good cigar is one you enjoy... nothing more, nothing less. "Cuban cigar" means that the cigar came from Cuba; nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't mean it's good, and it doesn't mean you'll enjoy it (though you very well may!).


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

khubli said:


> Andrew, I wonder if you were tricky and threw something like a Pepin JJ Salamones or a Tatuaje RC184 or RC233 into the mix... :]


Let's just say that certain cigars, such as the Cabaiguan WCD 120, were chosen for very specific reasons. That being if empirical data was used to judge it, rather than the taste alone, the result would be incorrect. Either way, I think they are really good tasting cigars, so if the "good = Cuban" and "bad = non-Cuban" methodology is used, it'll fail there too.

I wonder how many more of these I'm going to have to do before the "Cuban cigar taste" myth goes away? There are some great cigars from Cuba, there are some lousy cigars from Cuba. There are some you'll like, there are some you won't like.

Smoke what you like, just ensure that you really like what you think you do


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## RJT (Feb 12, 2005)

Moki how do you think you would fare with this same type test???


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## pistol (Mar 23, 2006)

moki said:


> Personal taste is exactly that: personal. Just as you might not like a particular type of food, but others might love it, so is it with cigars. As such, there is no right or wrong when it comes to what cigars you enjoy.


Honestly, there are so many good cigars out there. I think my enjoyment of a cigar has less to do with where the cigar is from, but instead how well it was blended. That's just my :2, Andrew this is a great thread!


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## wayner123 (Mar 29, 2007)

Hey, don't get me wrong. I believe that the Cuban cigar myth of ""good = Cuban" and "bad = non-Cuban" is incorrect. I was just stating my thoughts on procedure. I have had Cuban's that I thought were down right awful and NC's that wow'd me to the point of never going Cuban again. I would never make a blanket statement that every Cuban is better than every non Cuban. And your comment that "A good cigar is one you enjoy... nothing more, nothing less" is 100% accurate.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

RJT said:


> I would love to do one of these someday myself. I might think of arranging a Blind Taste Test Trade with someone.
> 
> Moki how do you think you would fare with this same type test???


A very good question! I'm in the middle of one right now actually... and in fact I was going to link it in here, but I didn't want it to prejudice this test.

I'll have more to say on that subject once this test is over... again, I don't want to prejudice this test with floydpink. 

I would be happy to do some type of blind taste test exchange with you in the future, RJT, if that's what you're asking. It'll have to be in a while though, I'm going to be traveling a good bit in the coming months.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

wayner123 said:


> Hey, don't get me wrong. I believe that the Cuban cigar myth of ""good = Cuban" and "bad = non-Cuban" is incorrect. I was just stating my thoughts on procedure. I have had Cuban's that I thought were down right awful and NC's that wow'd me to the point of never going Cuban again. I would never make a blanket statement that every Cuban is better than every non Cuban. And your comment that "A good cigar is one you enjoy... nothing more, nothing less" is 100% accurate.


I understand... and I'm not upset or anything of the kind... I'm just saying, if you don't like my methodology, start your own test. I think what I've come up with here is reasonable... it certainly could be better, but I don't want to engage in debating the merits of the way the test was administered when we're not even halfway through! And I have administered and participated in a number of blind taste tests over the years, so I think the way things are done here strike a reasonable compromise, and I'm aware of the pros and cons of doing it various ways.

That's all... no wuckins, sir!


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## wayner123 (Mar 29, 2007)

moki said:


> I understand... and I'm not upset or anything of the kind... I'm just saying, if you don't like my methodology, start your own test. I think what I've come up with here is reasonable... it certainly could be better, but I don't want to engage in debating the merits of the way the test was administered when we're not even halfway through!
> 
> That's all... no wuckins, sir!


Glad we understand each other :tu

As a matter of fact this has spurred me to conduct my own testing with a friend. Blind folds and all :r . I doubt the results would be much different. And I truly thank you for undergoing such a test as this as it gives me and others inspiration to experiment and test other cigars in our quest of knowledge and a good time.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

I'd like to interrupt this regularly scheduled blind taste testing to say:

*Thank you, floydpink* for being such a good sport, and for taking up this blind taste test with gusto and class.

Now let's git 'er done and finish the testing out! I think there may be some surprises and enjoyable experiences yet to come. The journey is the reward!


----------



## RJT (Feb 12, 2005)

moki said:


> A very good question! I'm in the middle of one right now actually... and in fact I was going to link it in here, but I didn't want it to prejudice this test.
> 
> I'll have more to say on that subject once this test is over... again, I don't want to prejudice this test with floydpink.
> 
> I would be happy to do some type of blind taste test exchange with you in the future, RJT, if that's what you're asking. It'll have to be in a while though, I'm going to be traveling a good be in the coming months.


Thanks for the offer.... I was actually referring to just doing one with anyone. Matter of fact I think it would be a neat way to do some trades with different people. Say five cigars each and all blind and to make it a little fair say the total five would be no less than $40.00 in value type thing or something similar.

Neat little taste test you have done here. I will say that I think it would fair a little different with someone with a little more experience, but maybe not.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

RJT said:


> Neat little taste test you have done here. I will say that I think it would fair a little different with someone with a little more experience, but maybe not.


Based on my experience, I'd have to disagree with you. The taste test I'm involved with right now is with a *very* knowledgeable primarily Habanos smoker... over 15 years of smoking Cuban cigars, and a very refined palate. He's currently 4/8 for getting the country of origin correct. A coin flip.

I've also seen many blind taste tests come and go, always with results that are surprising even to the most experienced cigar smokers. As I stated previously, I really don't think the results of this taste test have much to do with floydpink as they do with assumptions and prejudices that we all have, which may not be accurate (but have never been tested).

Much depends on careful selection of the cigars... 

As I posted previously on this thread (make sure you read the links in question):

.....

It's just that taste is a very, very slippery thing. Time and time again, experts have been confounded when it comes to blind taste testing of anything... water, wine, beer, cigars... so there's no reason to feel bad at all. Check some of these links out:

*The Subjectivity of Wine*

"Expert" wine tasting: *Round #1* -- *Round #2* -- *Round #3*

"Expert" water tasting: *Round #1* -- *Round #2* -- *Round #3*

I mean, tap water from municipal water supplies keeps winning in blind taste tests, yet people are paying $3 a bottle for Evian... there's definitely a logical disconnect there. People are buying by brand or label, not their taste buds. I like the statement from the last "water" article: In the final analysis, the price is all that separates them

If people who do this for a living (such as wine sommeliers) can't get it right, and are victims of all of the prejudices displayed in the above links, I think it's reasonable to assume we all will likewise fall victim to our preconceptions to an extent. 

When it comes to taste, the most important organ in your body is your brain, and the preconceptions it carries along with it. Your tongue and nose are mere appendages.


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## Opusfxd (Nov 17, 2007)

moki said:


> A good cigar is one you enjoy... nothing more, nothing less.


Amen brother!!!!!:tu

Floydpink, kudos to you for your part in this challenge. Enjoy the rest of it.:cb


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## wayner123 (Mar 29, 2007)

RJT said:


> Thanks for the offer.... I was actually referring to just doing one with anyone. Matter of fact I think it would be a neat way to do some trades with different people. Say five cigars each and all blind and to make it a little fair say the total five would be no less than $40.00 in value type thing or something similar.
> 
> Neat little taste test you have done here. I will say that I think it would fair a little different with someone with a little more experience, but maybe not.


This type of testing has been going on for a while now:

http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showthread.php?t=109223

Very informative and very worthwhile to get involved in.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

I'm re-posting this, only because in reading back through the thread, I realized I had incorrectly listed his rating for cigar #1 as 6/10 -- his real rating was 5/10.

.....

*Results so far:*

#1 - Cuban Montecristo Edmundo -- (5/10) guessed non-Cuban, Domincan or Honduran - _Incorrect_
#2 - Don Pepin Blue Label Imperiales Torpedo -- (8/10) guessed Cuban - _Incorrect_
#3 - Cuban Ramon Allones Estupendos (2006 RE Asia-Pacific) -- (4/10) guessed non-Cuban, Honduran - _Incorrect_
#4 - Cabaiguan WCD120 (scroll down) - (7/10) guessed Cuban - _Incorrect_

*Score:* Cigars 4, floydpink 0


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## tecnorobo (Mar 29, 2005)

moki said:


> I'm re-posting this, only because in reading back through the thread, I realized I had incorrectly listed his rating for cigar #1 as 6/10 -- his real rating was 5/10.
> 
> .....
> 
> ...


your test is kickin his butt!
that being said... man i love this thread. 
I'd love to do something like this sometime, but I know I'd get totally owned and humilated by my answers. Perks of bein a noob!


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## icehog3 (Feb 20, 2005)

tecnorobo said:


> I'd love to do something like this sometime, but I know I'd get totally owned and humilated by my answers. Perks of bein a noob!


I think even some FOGs might get suprised. 

I am smoking a Padilla 1932 Robusto tonight just to prove to myself I have an open mind...and it's purty darned good.


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## Spect (Sep 19, 2007)

moki said:


> I'd like to interrupt this regularly scheduled blind taste testing to say:
> 
> *Thank* *you, floydpink for being such a good sport, and for taking up this blind taste test with gusto and class.*
> 
> Now let's git 'er done and finish the testing out! I think there may be some surprises and enjoyable experiences yet to come. The journey is the reward!


:tpd:


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## pusherman (Oct 24, 2007)

Thanks for doin this guys, this is a GREAT thread!

-pm


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

On To Number 5

Well, this one looks, smells, and I hope tastes really nice.

Again, we have a triple cap and this one looks possibly like a double corona.
The wrapper is flawless and dark and the aroma on this one reminds me of one of my favorite Cubans. I wll not even attempt the cigar before I get at least one country right. Under normal circumstances, I would swear this is a Habano, but the last couple days have been anything but normal. I will be back from my daily park walk in an hour to report my findings....


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

floydpink said:


> On To Number 5
> 
> Well, this one looks, smells, and I hope tastes really nice.
> 
> ...


Cool... I'll likely be waiting for my flight when you do post, but if for some reason I take a while to get back to you with the results, I'm airborne!


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## pistol (Mar 23, 2006)

wayner123 said:


> This type of testing has been going on for a while now:
> 
> http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showthread.php?t=109223
> 
> Very informative and very worthwhile to get involved in.


yup, and both Moki and RJT have seen blind tastings before the one that you just linked (they've been around for a while!)! What's your point? You've posted in this thread discrediting Andrew's challenge all ready; you've made your point that this blind tasting is neither objective (as you think it could be) nor original- GOT IT, THANKS! The rest of us like this thread, so could you quit pissing in our cheerios now?!:2


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## barbourjay (Aug 9, 2007)

can we keep the off topic banter to a minimum. it does nothing besides clutter the thread with useless posts (this one included). take it to PM if you have a complaint about this thread.


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## Zoomschwortz (Jul 14, 2006)

moki said:


> _The good news is that we agree that these are great little smokes... the bad news, well... keep reading..._
> 
> *Cigar #4 results*
> 
> ...


What a great thread!

I had my first Cabaiguan last night and also thought it was a VERY GOOD cigar.

Thank you very much for this great read.
Ken


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

Ok, Here's the review:

This one might be the most interesting one yet. I am thinking if CA was reviewing it, it would have rated in the mid 90's, but they're not, so here goes my review.

This one was phenomenal. It had everything I look for in a cigar.

Upon lighting, I noticed an earthy flavor similar to a very well known Cuban.
As it progressed, a noticeable spicy and peppery taste emeged which started the second guessing I am becoming familiar with. It had me torn between the Habano and possibly a Tatuaje. In fact, I thought to myself, if this is a Pepin blend, I may become a fulltime pepin smoker after this test is finished.
The only possible negative was a burn problem that required a few touchups but nothing too bad and it improved as the cigar progressed.

By midway, the flavors were intense and it was a comples smoke that was more full bodied than medium.

the grassy flavor remained, but the peppery flavor became more pronounced.

I nubbed this cigar and will be buying a box once it's identity is revealed.

Origin: Cuba
rating: 8.5/10 would have been a 9 if not for the burn issues.

On second thought, I have nothing to lose, so I am going to go on a limb and say the grassiness had me convinced I was smoking a Cohiba, but I was scratching my head trying to recall the spiciness in the Cohibas i have previously smoked. For me, Cohibas are a little cost prohibitive and my experience is minimal with Cohiba. I am nearly positive that if I follow form and fail again, it will be revealed that I smoked a top knotch Pepin blend and I will be amazed.


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## icehog3 (Feb 20, 2005)

barbourjay said:


> can we keep the off topic banter to a minimum. it does nothing besides clutter the thread with useless posts (this one included). take it to PM if you have a complaint about this thread.


I haven't seen any complaints...but if yours is off topic or useless as you say, shall I delete it?


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## wayner123 (Mar 29, 2007)

pistol said:


> yup, and both Moki and RJT have seen blind tastings before the one that you just linked (they've been around for a while!)! What's your point? You've posted in this thread discrediting Andrew's challenge all ready; you've made your point that this blind tasting is neither objective (as you think it could be) nor original- GOT IT, THANKS! The rest of us like this thread, so could you quit pissing in our cheerios now?!:2


Whoa whoa whoa, I am sorry if I came across in a mean way. I was not discrediting anything. I was speaking to procedure, please go back and look at what I said. I have said this was good test with pleasing results. However, from the beginning, pinkfloyd was not supposed to examine anything.



> Peter has agreed to not attempt to determine the specifics of any of the cigars by any means other than simply smoking them and tasting them (ie, no examining them, looking them up in references, etc.). This is about taste, not research! For each cigar, he will post:


That's all I was finding fault with really. And I have no idea "why" RJT was saying that about the testing, as I am sure he may have seen the blind tests on here before, but I felt like putting in the link for others reading this thread. Is that so bad?? Again, I am truly sorry for any malcontent. Maybe I need to use more :ss:tu to show I am not being disrespectful or mean. Lastly, just because I might find fault with a persons methods, doesn't mean I think that person is faulty. I think moki and pinkfloyd are both very generous and humble people to be doing this test and I thank them for doing it. :tu


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## barbourjay (Aug 9, 2007)

icehog3 said:


> I haven't seen any complaints...but if yours is off topic or useless as you say, shall I delete it?


:r if it makes you happy.


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## Cigarmark (Apr 2, 2007)

This thread is so much fun. I wish there was a way we could wager on Mr. floydpink's guesses. I know I'm rooting for him, but feel we'll be let down again!:r I love blind tastings. I was extremely let down by a blind GOF a few weeks ago that I would probably have loved had I known what it was. I'll be wachting to see what happens!:tu


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

I know that pictures can't say much, but if you guys wanna take a guess when i post one, before I review it, feel free. You won't be altering my decisions.

Also, if Moki feels that i am posting too much commentary and would like me to just guess the origin and rate the cigar, I will gladly do it.

If not, I am gonna continue as I have, since he's the one that is footing the bill for these cigars that must have a pretty good pricetag.

On that note, I am beginning to feel a little guilt about the fact that i have ben smoking great cigars for a few days and my credit card balance hasn't changed. Could I possibly offer a bottle of scotch in return?

I think Moki will, in the end, reap a reward he wanted, as my comments about OpusX being a lesser of a cigar than a cheap Cuban are about to magically vanish along with any other uneducated comments I was known for in the past.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

floydpink said:


> Ok, Here's the review:
> 
> This one might be the most interesting one yet. I am thinking if CA was reviewing it, it would have rated in the mid 90's, but they're not, so here goes my review.
> 
> ...


I am posting this from my iPhone, so I will be brief... I will post in the standard format later.

Congratulations, you nailed this one... It is indeed Cuban, and moreso, it is also indeed a Cohiba!

*Cigar #5:* Cohiba Maduro 5 Genios

Well done!!!


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

floydpink said:


> I know that pictures can't say much, but if you guys wanna take a guess when i post one, before I review it, feel free. You won't be altering my decisions.
> 
> Also, if Moki feels that i am posting too much commentary and would like me to just guess the origin and rate the cigar, I will gladly do it.
> 
> If not, I am gonna continue as I have, since he's the one that is footing the bill for these cigars that must have a pretty good pricetag.


Definitely continue to do as you have been... It is perfect!


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

Well hallelujah!

There is still hope for me. That was one of the best cigars I have ever smoked and I was dying to try one.

Upon lighting it, the grassy taste was screaming "Cohiba!!" I was also nearly positive that the wrapper was maduro, which added to the confusion, as besides that Habano, I am not personally aware of too many others in the Cohiba line with maduro wrappers. What a pleasurable smoke and I am ordering a box. There are few cigars that leave one completely satisfied and after burning my fingers on that one, it falls in that category,

I wish I had mentioned my maduro guess, but think there's a few more and my courage is coming back. It took a gut check to even mention Cohiba, as if I was wrong, I would have bastardized one of the most respected names in cigars.

Maybe I now have my mojo back and can nail the remaining 5 and miss the mark by only one.

Curiously, all the remaining cigars are all triple capped, and I believe that makes it 10 for 10 in that aspect.

Have a nice flight Moki, as I am also flyin high right now.


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## OtterAKL4987 (Jun 4, 2007)

floydpink said:


> Well hallelujah!
> 
> There is still hope for me. That was one of the best cigars I have ever smoked and I was dying to try one.
> 
> ...


Maybe that was done to offset the inspection part of the tasting. Otherwise, you would be able to tell the triple caps were CCs.


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

Not necessarily, as the pepin blends have shown.


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## OtterAKL4987 (Jun 4, 2007)

floydpink said:


> Not necessarily, as the pepin blends have shown.


But the Pepin blends are triple capped right?


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

OtterAKL4987 said:


> But the Pepin blends are triple capped right?


My point exactly.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

OtterAKL4987 said:


> Maybe that was done to offset the inspection part of the tasting. Otherwise, you would be able to tell the triple caps were CCs.


Now would I do such a thing??


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## OtterAKL4987 (Jun 4, 2007)

floydpink said:


> My point exactly.


We are on the same page here, just saying it differently. What I meant was, if he included some that were triple capped and some that weren't as opposed to having all 10 being triple capped, you would be able to tell if they were CCs easier. Which, I'm guessing, is why all 10 are triple capped. :tu


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

I will review #6 around 9 pm tonight for those who stay home on Saturday nights. Here is what I will be tasting..... weighing in at just under 6 inches with a natural wrapper, this also looks like it could be a champ.


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

OtterAKL4987 said:


> We are on the same page here, just saying it differently. What I meant was, if he included some that were triple capped and some that weren't as opposed to having all 10 being triple capped, you would be able to tell if they were CCs easier. Which, I'm guessing, is why all 10 are triple capped. :tu


got it.


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

moki said:


> So as per our agreement, having gotten 4 cigars wrong in terms of country of origin, it is now impossible to achieve the 7/10 correct watermark, and you are officially no longer allowed to state:
> 
> In your words:
> 
> ...


I didn't have a chance to read every post in this thread and came upon this. I was definitely wrong, and am sorta glad i was. I have also chaged my title for a month to live up to the second part of our agreement. I will wear the badge proudly.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

floydpink said:


> I didn't have a chance to read every post in this thread and came upon this. I was definitely wrong, and am sorta glad i was. I have also chaged my title for a month to live up to the second part of our agreement. I will wear the badge proudly.


no need to change your title -- in fact, I'd rather you didn't. I could care less about that.


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## Jbailey (Nov 9, 2006)

icehog3 said:


> I think even some FOGs might get suprised.
> 
> I am smoking a Padilla 1932 Robusto tonight just to prove to myself I have an open mind...and it's purty darned good.


I really do enjoy the 1932s and also the Miami 8/11s.


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## mash (Jul 24, 2007)

wayner123 said:


> Whoa whoa whoa, I am sorry if I came across in a mean way. I was not discrediting anything. I was speaking to procedure, please go back and look at what I said. I have said this was good test with pleasing results. However, from the beginning, pinkfloyd was not supposed to examine anything.
> 
> That's all I was finding fault with really. And I have no idea "why" RJT was saying that about the testing, as I am sure he may have seen the blind tests on here before, but I felt like putting in the link for others reading this thread. Is that so bad?? Again, I am truly sorry for any malcontent. Maybe I need to use more :ss:tu to show I am not being disrespectful or mean. Lastly, just because I might find fault with a persons methods, doesn't mean I think that person is faulty. I think moki and pinkfloyd are both very generous and humble people to be doing this test and I thank them for doing it. :tu


You have nothing to apologize for. I think you've been very respectful, and clearly Moki has seen it that way too.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

floydpink said:


> Ok, Here's the review:
> 
> This one might be the most interesting one yet. I am thinking if CA was reviewing it, it would have rated in the mid 90's, but they're not, so here goes my review.
> 
> ...


_Landed in Philly, and I have a bit of a layover, so it's on to cigar #5... which is good news..._

*Cigar #5 results*

floydpink says:

Cigar rating: 8.5/10
Origin guess: Cuba (Cohiba)
Cuban/non-Cuban: Cuban

Survey says:

Actual origin: Cuba
Cigar #5 is a: Cohiba Maduro 5 Genios (5.5" x 52)

*Commentary:*

Almost entirely good news here... you nailed the country of origin, and you even nailed the marca (Cohiba) on this one, as well as apparently very much enjoying the cigar. The bad news? These cigars are expensive! 

Indeed, one might argue that for the price, you damned well better be blown away.

I'll confess that this cigar was meant to be a little deceptive. The maduro wrapper I thought would cause you to be inclined to believe it was non-Cuban if you used empirical means to judge the cigars... which is sadly what most people end up doing in blind taste tests.

Nicely done, your taste buds saw through my ruse, and nailed this one! Do I hear a comeback??? 

*Results so far:*

#1 - Cuban Montecristo Edmundo -- (5/10) guessed non-Cuban, Domincan or Honduran - _Incorrect_
#2 - Don Pepin Blue Label Imperiales Torpedo -- (8/10) guessed Cuban - _Incorrect_
#3 - Ramon Allones Estupendos (2006 RE Asia-Pacific) -- (4/10) guessed non-Cuban, Honduran - _Incorrect_
#4 - Cabaiguan WCD120 (scroll down) - (7/10) guessed Cuban - _Incorrect_
#5 - Cohiba Maduro 5 Genios - (8.5/10) guessed Cuban - _Correct!_

*Score:* Cigars 4, floydpink 1


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## yayson (Aug 21, 2006)

floydpink said:


> I know that pictures can't say much, but if you guys wanna take a guess when i post one, before I review it, feel free. You won't be altering my decisions.


I was 2 for 2 on country of origin til you stopped posting pictures! This #6 however, the angle and head focus is a bit tough and assuming the paper is white, the color is off. I hate to ask but, new picture?! 

This thread is a great read


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

yayson said:


> I was 2 for 2 on country of origin til you stopped posting pictures! This #6 however, the angle and head focus is a bit tough and assuming the paper is white, the color is off. I hate to ask but, new picture?!
> 
> This thread is a great read


I'm confused. I have posted pics on all the cigars I think.


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## str8edg (Dec 30, 2007)

I think it was cool that you pegged that one right on the nose! Now I can't wait to smoke my Cohiba! I still love this thread.

floydpink I nevert even thought of the financial cost to Moki to do this! This just goes to show how we have so many top notch members here at CS.

As said before, thank you both for doing this


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## str8edg (Dec 30, 2007)

The pic for #5 looks busted


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

yayson said:


> I was 2 for 2 on country of origin til you stopped posting pictures! This #6 however, the angle and head focus is a bit tough and assuming the paper is white, the color is off. I hate to ask but, new picture?!
> 
> This thread is a great read


I'd prefer if people did not guess what the cigars are until after floydpink posts his reviews. No sense in having anyone influence his decision.

So everyone, *please hold your tongues* on each cigar until after floydpink has posted his review for it. Thank you!


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

I agree on the pic for pic 6 and will get a better shot later and will have the review up later tonight.

I'm not sure what happened to the pic for 5, but I have deleted the pic from my files and all that is left is a memory.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

floydpink said:


> I agree on the pic for pic 6 and will get a better shot later and will have the review up later tonight.
> 
> I'm not sure what happened to the pic for 5, but I have deleted the pic from my files and all that is left is a memory.


You won't get your answer on that one until around 9pm PST (midnight for you)... just so you don't fall asleep at the keyboard waiting for the answer!


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## yayson (Aug 21, 2006)

floydpink said:


> I'm confused. I have posted pics on all the cigars I think.


I only ever saw #1 and #2

If you're having hosting troubles feel free to PM me and I can hooken you uppen



moki said:


> I'd prefer if people did not guess what the cigars are until after floydpink posts his reviews.


agreed


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

floydpink said:


> Curiously, all the remaining cigars are all triple capped, and I believe that makes it 10 for 10 in that aspect.


Just a reminder... you're not supposed to be examining these cigars visually enough to even notice things like a triple cap (or lack thereof)  ... just whip 'em out, cut 'em, and light 'em.

It is a *blind taste test* after all...


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

moki said:


> You won't get your answer on that one until around 9pm PST (midnight for you)... just so you don't fall asleep at the keyboard waiting for the answer!


I will be doing #6 later then probably only one tommorow as I work all day and into the night. I spend my lunch break at Corona Cigars and have a feeling they wouldn't like me conducting my test in their lounge.

This should be done by Tuesday


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## BengalMan (Aug 13, 2007)

Great thread!


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

Unfortunately, I have discovered why the pics dissapeared. I had them on Photobucket and deleted the after the post was finished forgetting they need to stay to be hosted. i won't do that again.

Anyway...

Here is a better pic of cigar #6, which I am about to smoke



CIGAR #6 REVIEW

Again, a triple cap. This one has a natural wrapper and is very well constructed like all the others have been. I'm off to light it up but am excited by the prelight draw already as well as the aroma.

As you can see, this one is also slightly cracked at the foot, like the earlier Cabaiguan. My spidey senses are picking up other indicators before I have even lit this to possibly indicate it's origin.


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

The first third of this stick are making me more and more sure I am smoking a brand I smoked earlier in this test.
After cutting with my Xikar, the wrapper began to unwind a little by the head. It also seems firm, but draws easily. The taste is full and peppery.


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

taste is great, but now we have cracking on the other end...


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

Wow, this is a complex cigar that just changed dramatically. The ash is light gray and has held firm all the way through and is still intact. The cigar has a perfect draw and burn and the cracking has stopped.

Initially, all indications were that I was doing a Cabaiguan repeat and I thought this one was going to be easy. 

At the halfway mark, the spiciness has subsided and it has developed a strong earthy taste which is extremely similar to a Cuban brand that is my current favorite and is my most popular marca in my humi.

I promised to do no research on the cigars and base my guesses on taste alone, so I probably shouldn't guess the marca.

FWIW, my humi stays a constant 68 rh and 73 temp, which i know is a little warm, but I live in Florida.


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

At the 3/4 mark, this one is becoming more and more convincing that it is a Habano and I am nearly ready to make my guess and am debating guessing the marca, although the size doesn't correspond with any I have smoked of this brand.


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

Ok I'm done.

Origin: Cuba
rating: 8/10


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

Since i am done, anyone care to take a guess based on the pictures alone?


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## NicotineBuzz (Dec 9, 2007)

floydpink said:


> Since i am done, anyone care to take a guess based on the pictures alone? Ji?


WAG: Montecristo 1 or 3, I can't tell how big it is from the pic


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

Size was right about the size of a Monte 3 but maybe a larger rg? Not sure. The earthiness and strength had Montecristo enter my mind as well as Bolivar briefly.

What the heck, the flavor developed to the point it reminded me a lot of a Partagas, but I don't know of a marca of this size. It reminded me most of a Partagas and I would appeal to Moki for extra credit if i get two marcas correct~~!!!


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## worr lord (Feb 3, 2007)

Ramon Allones Gigantes? I haven't been following the thread, but that's a great looking stogie.


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

definitely not. Too short. It was around 5 1/2 inches long.


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## worr lord (Feb 3, 2007)

floydpink said:


> definitely not. Too short. It was around 5 1/2 inches long.


Oh wow, the picture made it look huge to me.


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## JCK (Nov 9, 2006)

My guess just looking at the photos which isn't the point of this taste test lends me to believe it's non-cuban. 

The spiciness dropping off at the half-way point giving into earthy tones throws me off of cuban cigars as well. Note that my experience with Habanos is pretty limited, but I've never had one give away spiciness in the last half if that's how it started.


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## wayner123 (Mar 29, 2007)

khubli said:


> My guess just looking at the photos which isn't the point of this taste test lends me to believe it's non-cuban.


:tpd:


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## JBI (Oct 20, 2006)

Non - Cuban.


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

This one was tough but I based my choice on the fact that, although it looked very similar to a Pepin blend, I didn't recall ever smoking one that mellowed out so much at the midway point.

If I had just smoked the first third of the cigar, I would have easily guessed Cabaiguan and will be bummed if it turns out to be one. It had all the characteristics of a Nicaraguan tobacco blended by Pepin but really took on a creamy taste midway.

Whatever it turns out to be, it will be another one I will be grabbing more of. I'm nowhere as certain on this one as I was on the Cohiba and am second guessing myself and have a feeling this might be one of the surprises Andrew mentioned. I'm stickin with Cuban.

Moki will be landing in an hour and we'll see.


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## adsantos13 (Oct 10, 2006)

floydpink said:


> definitely not. Too short. It was around 5 1/2 inches long.


FWIW, Partagas (cuban version) made a corona, 5 1/2 x 42. Was discontinued after 2006. Damn shame too, they are some excellent smokes.


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## duhman (Dec 3, 2007)

It looked just like the Partagas NC I was holding in my hand at the time, only mine was a short robusto, but the vieniness and color were the same. Plus, it looks like my NC has a crude triple-cap. Tasted great, too.


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

adsantos13 said:


> FWIW, Partagas (cuban version) makes a corona, 5 1/2 x 42. Was discontinued after 2006. Damn shame too, they are some excellent smokes.


that really increases my suspicions and throws another curveball. I gave my word to play by the rules and will do no research whatsoever besides tasting the cigar and will honor that promise to the end regardless if i finish my season with one win like the Dolphins.


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## worr lord (Feb 3, 2007)

khubli said:


> The spiciness dropping off at the half-way point giving into earthy tones throws me off of cuban cigars as well.


I've actually noticed that of 2006 Monte Tubos, where the classic spiciness evolves into a blander flavor, almost flat in comparison.


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

I was about to call it a night but see Moki has arrived.... No chance now.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

Just landed in SF, will post the results of cigar #6 shortly.... This one is *very* interesting!

Will be about an hour...


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## JCK (Nov 9, 2006)

moki said:


> Just landed in SF, will post the results of cigar #6 shortly.... *This one is *very* interesting!*


LOL.. watch this one be some crusty old 70's or 80's habano or OR Opus.


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## yourchoice (Jun 25, 2006)

This thread is awesome. I'm not going to bed until I find out what #6 is!


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## OtterAKL4987 (Jun 4, 2007)

yourchoice said:


> This thread is awesome. I'm not going to bed until I find out what #6 is!


:tpd: I am waiting with baited breath.:r


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

floydpink said:


> Wow, this is a complex cigar that just changed dramatically. The ash is light gray and has held firm all the way through and is still intact. The cigar has a perfect draw and burn and the cracking has stopped.
> 
> Initially, all indications were that I was doing a Cabaiguan repeat and I thought this one was going to be easy.
> 
> ...


_There is good news and bad news in this one... but I think the good outweighs the bad, see below..._

*Cigar #6 results*

floydpink says:

Cigar rating: 8/10
Origin guess: Cuba
Cuban/non-Cuban: Cuban

Survey says:

Actual origin: Dominican
Cigar #6 is a: Flor Fina 858 Natural (6" x 47)

*Commentary:*

This is why blind taste tests are so great... what you smoked and really enjoyed, and thought was a Cuban cigar is actually the least expensive cigar in the blind taste test.

This cigar is an easily obtained, humble, Flor Fina 858 Natural cigar from Arturo Fuente. It's one of their "bread and butter" cigars that has stood the test of time.

So the good news is you found a $4 cigar you really love, and it's not Cuban, and you can buy it anywhere! 

*Results so far:*

#1 - Cuban Montecristo Edmundo -- (5/10) guessed non-Cuban, Domincan or Honduran - _Incorrect_
#2 - Don Pepin Blue Label Imperiales Torpedo -- (8/10) guessed Cuban - _Incorrect_
#3 - Ramon Allones Estupendos (2006 RE Asia-Pacific) -- (4/10) guessed non-Cuban, Honduran - _Incorrect_
#4 - Cabaiguan WCD120 (scroll down) - (7/10) guessed Cuban - _Incorrect_
#5 - Cohiba Maduro 5 Genios - (8.5/10) guessed Cuban - _Correct!_
#6 - Flor Fina 858 Natural - (8/10) guessed Cuban - _Incorrect!_

*Score:* Cigars 5, floydpink 1


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## RJT (Feb 12, 2005)

Got it....


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## rx2010 (Jan 4, 2007)

that's awesome, no wonder I love 858s :ss


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## yayson (Aug 21, 2006)

good review, I've never had one of these and will now seek them out!

the only guess I had off the photo was NC

thanks for the reviews and photos fp!


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## billybarue (Mar 20, 2006)

Enjoying the thread immensely guys - thanks.

Andrew, 

can you give any age info on the sticks. Specifically the flor fina, but I guess also 1,2,5,6. RA obvious and I know you said the Cabaiguan is recent.

Thanks guys for putting in the effort on this


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## Puffin Fresh (Nov 1, 2006)

Interesting. I had one of these tonight after a Padilla 8/11 and an Opus Super Beli. I would have never guess CC, but then again, I was able to see the band (and the it's a girl on the cello as it was for a friend's baby being born).

Wow, this is going to be lopsided. Thanks for being a great sport!


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

floydpink said:


> This one was tough but I based my choice on the fact that, although it looked very similar to a Pepin blend, I didn't recall ever smoking one that mellowed out so much at the midway point.
> 
> If I had just smoked the first third of the cigar, I would have easily guessed Cabaiguan and will be bummed if it turns out to be one. It had all the characteristics of a Nicaraguan tobacco blended by Pepin but really took on a creamy taste midway.
> 
> ...


Nope, not a Cuban Bolivar, Cuban Montecristo, or Cuban Partagas... nor is it a Cabaiguan nor is it from Nicaragua.

Dominican, baby... an Arturo Fuente Flor Fina 858 Natural... $4 per cigar! 

This wasn't really a "surprise" cigar at all, but I like to put a mix of expensive and inexpensive cigars into blind taste tests. Why? Because it's an interesting way to see if your taste buds agree that the expensive cigars are worth the money.

In your case, clearly you thought the Cohiba Maduro 5 Genios was worth it... but given the poor rating, you did not believe the Ramon Allones Estupendo was. So far 2 of the 3 most highly rated cigars are relatively inexpensive, and widely available.

This is a good thing.


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## Troop_lee (Aug 10, 2007)

This is a great thread!!


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## GAW (May 25, 2007)

> This is a good thing.


To moki and floydpink :tu This thread is a good thing!Thanks for the education and entertainment. Hang in there floydpink you're in the home stretch now!


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## heatmiser (Nov 28, 2007)

I just bought a box of 858 maduros without ever trying one based on the high ratings. They are in my humidor resting before I light one up. Buying boxes without first trying is usually not my style as I normally buy 5 packs first. Looks like I made a good choice...


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## gamayrouge (Dec 21, 2007)

heatmiser said:


> I just bought a box of 858 maduros without ever trying one based on the high ratings. They are in my humidor resting before I light one up. Buying boxes without first trying is usually not my style as I normally buy 5 packs first. Looks like I made a good choice...


I did they same thing you did. They're nice smokes. :tu


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## tecnorobo (Mar 29, 2005)

I've got to chime in again. This thread is great. I can't get enough.
I might take the bands off all of my cigars in my humi, give them plain white bands, put numbers on em and journal which cigar is which.

hahaha.


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

I guess everything in life goes in circles. The 858 was originally one of my favorite cigars, until I thought I had moved onto "better cigars"

The 858 maduro is one of my favorite maduros.

RJT actually pm'd me with the country of origin based on pics alone.

This is a little embarassing and I'm not going to dwell on it. 
This one wasn't even close.

#7 later.


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

moki said:


> Nope, not a Cuban Bolivar, Cuban Montecristo, or Cuban Partagas... nor is it a Cabaiguan nor is it from Nicaragua.
> 
> Dominican, baby... an Arturo Fuente Flor Fina 858 Natural... $4 per cigar!
> 
> ...


I guess one of my biggest surprises so far was the Ramon Allones, and I that I enjoyed a cigar I can pick up in an ABC liquor store (Fuente 858) more than a regionals release that I normally would have traded some of my best cigars for or paid a high price for.

I also think maybe I should have given the Cohiba Maduro a little more points as it is, by far, the best cigar of this test and probably my experiences in general.

There must be some FOG's reading this shaking their heads and other gorrillas wondering why they have sent me such good cigars in the past.

I am beginning to really believe the visual and mental part before lighting a cigar plays a large role and when that is taken away, a lot can happen.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

floydpink said:


> I am beginning to really believe the visual and mental part before lighting a cigar plays a large role and when that is taken away, a lot can happen.


Yep, they do. But it's one of those things that until you experience it for yourself, it's hard to believe just how much they influence things.


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## gnukfu (Dec 19, 2007)

moki said:


> Yep, they do. But it's one of those things that until you experience it for yourself, it's hard to believe just how much they influence things.


Very interesting - I smoked a Cohiba Black Supremo the other day and enjoyed the heck out of it even though the flavor was very one dimensional. I was puzzling about that and realized that I enjoyed it so much because the cigar looked great (to me), was perfectly constructed, felt great in my hand and mouth, drew perfectly, the bright white ash contrasted nicely against the darkness of the cigar, and it had lots of smoke. It all combined to make a great smoking experience. Now if they could work on the flavor.... :ss


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## Zoomschwortz (Jul 14, 2006)

moki said:


> Yep, they do. But it's one of those things that until you experience it for yourself, it's hard to believe just how much they influence things.


I can only wonder how I would do in a test like this. I wonder what I would really like if I didn't know what I was smoking.

Moki could save people a lot of money by selling a blind test sampler service. Just think of the money you could save if your favorite cigar is $4.00.

I want to thank you both for this thread. It has really opened my eyes.

Ken


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## DennisP (May 13, 2007)

Wow, I just read this entire thread at once......glad to be home.

I'm thinking I'll grab a bunch of 858s for floydpink and meet up and trade for all his Cubans. :tu

Great job on this both of you....hang in there floydpink.

Also, maybe I'm wrong, but I didn't think the 858 had a triple cap (or do any Fuente)?


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

DennisP said:


> Also, maybe I'm wrong, but I didn't think the 858 had a triple cap (or do any Fuente)?


You're wrong. Look closely here.

This is the case with almost all of the cigars Fuente rolls, including VSGs.

The caps aren't always neat or clearly visible, but neither are they on Cuban cigars.


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## DennisP (May 13, 2007)

moki said:


> You're wrong. Look closely here.
> 
> This is the case with most every cigars Fuente rolls, including VSGs.
> 
> The caps aren't always neat or clearly visible, but neither are they on Cuban cigars.


Before you edited andded the links I was looking at that pick on your site and pulled out the one 858 I have. The one I have I can only distinctly see 2 caps, it isn't near as visible as Pepin's cap or even the CC's I've smoked.

Thanks for the info though.


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## DBall (Jun 4, 2007)

C'mon now, FloydPink... isn't it time for your next cigar yet?! :r

I can't wait!

...at least when I read this taste test it was already completed so there was no waiting (to all of you who will now spend the next 30-60 minutes reading that thread start to finish, you're welcome...  ).


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## nuke999 (Nov 10, 2006)

Thanks for the education guys. You have driven home the point that country of origin, company, etc will influence more than I realize.


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## sirxlaughs (Nov 18, 2005)

moki said:


> You're wrong. Look closely here.
> 
> This is the case with almost all of the cigars Fuente rolls, including VSGs.
> 
> The caps aren't always neat or clearly visible, but neither are they on Cuban cigars.


Maybe it's me, but I do not see trip caps on any of those cigars (even the VSG's). The only Fuente cigars that I seem to have with true, triple caps (and not the wrapper wrapped around once) are OpusX's.


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## TastyCaramel (Jan 7, 2007)

sirxlaughs said:


> Maybe it's me, but I do not see trip caps on any of those cigars (even the VSG's). The only Fuente cigars that I seem to have with true, triple caps (and not the wrapper wrapped around once) are OpusX's.


There are obvious triple caps on the fifth and second from the right VSGs, just look a little closer.

You can spot triple caps on most of them, but it's not exactly easy. Regardless, they are indeed there :tu


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## sirxlaughs (Nov 18, 2005)

TastyCaramel said:


> There are obvious triple caps on the fifth and second from the right VSGs, just look a little closer.
> 
> You can spot triple caps on most of them, but it's not exactly easy. Regardless, they are indeed there :tu


That is what I thought at first also. So, I went and grabbed the VSG's I have on hand to make sure of something. Sometimes what looks like the very first cap, is simply just the wrapper wound around the cigar. The ones I have (and have had) are definitely not constructed as well as the Pepins I have. I can pick off the caps on those cigars with my nails.


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## duhman (Dec 3, 2007)

From this link:
http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showthread.php?t=104880
it looks like the first cap is a wraparound, the second is an added wrap, and the third is a round cap.
I was looking at some CCs and it isn't always clearly three layered.


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## sirxlaughs (Nov 18, 2005)

duhman said:


> From this link:
> http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showthread.php?t=104880
> it looks like the first cap is a wraparound, the second is an added wrap, and the third is a round cap.
> I was looking at some CCs and it isn't always clearly three layered.


Beautiful deconstruction, and informative. Thanks for the link. :tu


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

DBall said:


> C'mon now, FloydPink... isn't it time for your next cigar yet?! :r
> 
> I can't wait!
> 
> ...at least when I read this taste test it was already completed so there was no waiting (to all of you who will now spend the next 30-60 minutes reading that thread start to finish, you're welcome...  ).


I actually just finished my next cigar and it was definitely a non-Cuban, DEFINITELY. It was a Fuente 858 maduro with a band on my lunch break at Corona Cigar. First cigar band I have seen in days and actually found it a little bit less pleasing than the one last night with the Partagas, Bolivar, and Montecristo flavors!!!!

Sorry to keep you in suspense, but I am at work until 8 and will have the #7 reviewed around 9:30 tonight. By Tuesday, this will be all finished and my final comments will be posted and I will live forever in the hall of shame, but will carry some memories with me for life.

Dball, I see you are in Rochester. If I was you, I'd go trick or treating at Moki's house near you.

I have a feeling #7 will be a winner for me.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

floydpink said:


> Sorry to keep you in suspense, but I am at work until 8 and will have the #7 reviewed around 9:30 tonight. By Tuesday, this will be all finished and my final comments will be posted and I will live forever in the hall of shame, but will carry some memories with me for life.


I see no shame in your performance here at all... life is a always a learning process. It's those who forget this, and think they know everything, that should be shamed.



> Dball, I see you are in Rochester. If I was you, I'd go trick or treating at Moki's house near you.


We've tried, we've just never quite made the connection. 



> I have a feeling #7 will be a winner for me.


We shall see! I'm not 100% sure what my schedule is tonight, but I'll post the results at some point! Good luck!


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## WeekendSmoker (Apr 18, 2007)

moki said:


> ...in terms of what affects the taste of a cigar. I could give you the same cigar on two different days, under two different sets of conditions, and I promise you that the taste you'd experience would be different.


I totally agree. I once had a Pinot tasting where we tasted the wines (only 6, from 3 different regions) with loud music blasting, and then, about about an hour later, in silence. (and yes, the wines had been opened a couple of hours prior to the first round. The results were rankings were completely different and the subjective experience was also completely different - with the loud music all wines tasted flat without much detail, with the music off we could taste many more nuances.

I've only been seriously doing cigars for about 2 years or so but I know that knowing what it is you are smoking, and the circumstances greatly influence your experience. 
This is a great experiment which should become a sticky/standard to which anyone who thinks they know anything about cigars should be willing to subject themselves to.
Hats off,
WeekendSmoker
p.s. I'd be more than willing to supply a "secret" set of cigars to any willing (public) victim....


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## dayplanner (Dec 11, 1997)

Hey moki, love this thread! I have a question though, what was the age of the highly rated 8-5-8 floydpink had?


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

Advil said:


> Hey moki, love this thread! I have a question though, what was the age of the highly rated 8-5-8 floydpink had?


Not sure... Probably just a few years if age on it. I have a few from 1984, but I'm pretty sure I didn't send one of those.


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## wayner123 (Mar 29, 2007)

WeekendSmoker said:


> p.s. I'd be more than willing to supply a "secret" set of cigars to any willing (public) victim....


What kind of challenge do you have in mind? You have my interest.


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

REVIEW OF CIGAR #7

Ok, here we go.

This one looks like a Churchill and also like it's gonna be good and possibly epic. Very well rolled with a nice medium brown wrapper that I noticed a couple of the green spots that I saw on the Ramon Allones Estpendo. Smells awfully nice and I might be smokin for a while...


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

Coming home from a long day at work and having a beer, big bowl of spaghetti and meatballs and kicking up my tired feet with a cigar is always great and the cigars usually taste better than when I'm rushing, so tonight I am in the mood for a cigar,

This one is starting out really impressively. No spice or harshness at all and a really smooth taste. Not the grassiness of the Cohiba, but definitely earthy and complex.


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

At the 1/3 mark, this one's getting better and besides a burn problem, it's outstanding. I'm really having to work on the tunneling a bit.

I am going to on a limb and say this one is NOT a young cigar.

I think my excitement to smoke this cigar had me puffing to fast and I might have been part of the burn problem. I have slowed down and it is imroving greatly.

This seem to me to be the kind of cigar you smoke slowly and have 1 1/2 hours of enjoyment with.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

floydpink said:


> Coming home from a long day at work and having a beer, big bowl of spaghetti and meatballs and kicking up my tired feet with a cigar is always great and the cigars usually taste better than when I'm rushing, so tonight I am in the mood for a cigar,
> 
> This one is starting out really impressively. No spice or harshness at all and a really smooth taste. Not the grassiness of the Cohiba, but definitely earthy and complex.


Very interesting! Your frame of mind makes it likely that you will enjoy this one! Or maybe not, we shall see... But I'm watching


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

At the halfaway mark, this cigar is burning beautifully and has really settled into a medium bodied and smooth smoke with some floral notes. This is definitely a nice after dinner smoke to sit down with if you have some time.


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

So far, the most noticeable thing about this cigar is it's smoothness. For me, there is no spiciness at all and very little aftertaste. I am still getting floral notes and I am forming a judgement easier on this one than the last one.

I'm not venturing the marca on this one, but I am feeling good about the origin.

My personal taste is for a full bodied smoke, but I have a feeling there are quite a few that would really love this cigar. I am liking it.


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

I hope I am not breaking protocol here, but I have passed the halfway mark and have smoked enough to make my call, although I am not ready to put this down..

Speak now if I should wait...


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

For me, my experiences with Cuban cigars have always been that they provoke a taste explosion in my mouth and leave a taste that lingers for a while and has the "twang" you hear mentioned a lot when describing Cuban cigars.

This cigar didn't have those characteristics for me but was a very nice smoke that I would be glad to repeat.

I liked it, but it never developed to a really full flavored cigar.

In my judgement, this was a Dominican cigar.

Origin: Not Cuba
Rating: 7.5/10


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## DennisP (May 13, 2007)

From what you had to say about the cigar my thinking was Dominican as well.


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

Again, the cigar was good, very good in fact.

Because I am being critical, i would say it was a little one dimensional and I was hoping for it to develop a little more, but it remained smooth and what i would describe as "floral".

my guess is there wil be many gorillas who disagree with my evaluation and will feel I didn't give it enough credit, but it just didn't nail it for me.

I'm wondering if the remaining 3 will have one that compares with the Cohiba Maduro. For me, that was the only "phenomenal" one but ironically, the RA was my only real dissapointment that I put down early.


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## DBall (Jun 4, 2007)

floydpink said:


> Dball, I see you are in Rochester. If I was you, I'd go trick or treating at Moki's house near you.





moki said:


> We've tried, we've just never quite made the connection.


Soon, Andrew... just let me know when you are back in town and have a few moments. I'm sure I could make the oh-so-long drive from downtown to Tony's... :tu

I haven't been there in a while.

By the way, this is another fantastic thread.

edit: crap... I see you are on here now. I was gonna put the laptop away and wait for the result til tomorrow... now I've gotta stay awake...


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## dayplanner (Dec 11, 1997)

moki said:


> Not sure... Probably just a few years if age on it. I have a few from 1984, but I'm pretty sure I didn't send one of those.


Oh ok thanks  I'm thinking of picking up a box of these now. Damn you!

As for cigar 7. It kind of looks like a Tatuaje Tainos.
Kind of sounds like a Tatuaje too 
all smooth and no spice. though i've only had one (reserva sw) thats exactly what I experienced.

hmm.


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## JCK (Nov 9, 2006)

My guess on number 7 from the tasting notes is A Dominican AVO, perhaps an XO or possibly a Davidoff.


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## zmancbr (Nov 20, 2007)

Advil said:


> Oh ok thanks  I'm thinking of picking up a box of these now. Damn you!
> 
> As for cigar 7. It kind of looks like a Tatuaje Tainos.
> Kind of sounds like a Tatuaje too
> ...


Do it!! The 8-5-8 is one of my favorite cigars period. And for $4 a stick you cant beat them. I actually have a box of the maduros in the mail this week....Next box up>>a Don Carlos #3 or #4.

I also wanted to say, nice job with this thread. It is a really fun read. I just went through all the posts again from start to finish and it is wonderful!! Not sure I could do any better on cigars as Blind testing is indeed tough. Now if we did a blind beer testing...


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## weak_link (Jan 13, 2008)

Wow what a read! I just spent the past two hours with a Punch, my laptop, my dog and this thread. 
For a re-entry smoker it's been a fantastic eye opener and a giant 'Thank You' to both Moki & Floyd for the entertainment.
ps// 858's are now going into my next bid order.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

floydpink said:


> Coming home from a long day at work and having a beer, big bowl of spaghetti and meatballs and kicking up my tired feet with a cigar is always great and the cigars usually taste better than when I'm rushing, so tonight I am in the mood for a cigar,
> 
> This one is starting out really impressively. No spice or harshness at all and a really smooth taste. Not the grassiness of the Cohiba, but definitely earthy and complex.
> 
> ...


_I agree with much of what you said about this cigar, but unfortunately, this cigar is a lot of things you thought it wasn't... see below  _

*Cigar #7 results*

floydpink says:

Cigar rating: 7.5/10
Origin guess: Dominican
Cuban/non-Cuban: non-Cuban

Survey says:

Actual origin: Cuban
Cigar #7 is a: Cohiba Selección Reserva Esplendido (7" x 47)

*Commentary:*

This cigar is a Cohiba, and it is indeed Cuban, not Dominican. It's a Cohiba Selección Reserva Esplendido from the special 30 count box released in 2003 (both 2002 & 2003 box codes):

_ The Reserve Selection consists of 30 Cohiba cigars made with "very special, aged tobacco that has been selected for the highest quality" - four Esplendidos, six Robustos, six Corona Especials, eight Pirámides and six of a brand new vitola, the Media Corona._

I've seen these boxes of 30 range from $650 on up to $850 per box of 30 cigars... so cheap, they are not.

Interestingly, this exact same cigar, James Suckling from Cigar Aficionado rated a 95. Which I think, if anything, goes to show that any cigar review should be taken with a grain of salt. Mr. Suckling said:

_ The Cohiba Esplendido in the Reserve Selection that I smoked the day after the Siglo VI launch was an incredible smoke (95 points). It reminded me of the first Esplendidos I smoked in the early 1990s. It was rich and full of character, but it showed wonderful finesse and clarity. The aged tobacco definitely makes a difference. _

I too find these cigars to be lacking in character a bit; I've been rather disappointed by the Cohiba Reservas... and I do love the mighty Eslpendido when it is on. I've rarely found the Reserva variants to be "on" to my tastes.

Just 3 more cigars to go mang... all Robustos, if I recall correctly... chin up, and enjoy the remaining cigars! There are still interesting things yet to come! 

*Results so far:*

#1 - Cuban Montecristo Edmundo -- (5/10) guessed non-Cuban, Domincan or Honduran - _Incorrect_
#2 - Don Pepin Blue Label Imperiales Torpedo -- (8/10) guessed Cuban - _Incorrect_
#3 - Cuban Ramon Allones Estupendos (2006 RE Asia-Pacific) -- (4/10) guessed non-Cuban, Honduran - _Incorrect_
#4 - Cabaiguan WCD120 (scroll down) - (7/10) guessed Cuban - _Incorrect_
#5 - Cuban Cohiba Maduro 5 Genios - (8.5/10) guessed Cuban - _Correct!_
#6 - Flor Fina 858 Natural - (8/10) guessed Cuban - _Incorrect_
#7 - Cuban Cohiba Selección Reserva Esplendido - (7.5/10) guessed non-Cuban, Dominican - _Incorrect_

*Score:* Cigars 6, floydpink 1


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

Well, another surprise for sure.

I had always thought that the flavor of a Cohiba was unmistakeable.

For me, this one had none of the grassiness ot twang that I associate with a Cohiba.

Again, a really good smoke that I felt needed a good 1 1/2 hours to enjoy but I am not sure I'd be rushing to buy a box of these as I almost spit my coffee seeing the price tag. I almost guessed this cigar to be one of the pricier Graycliffs I have smoked and it left me feeling like I had smoked one in many ways.

I'm wondering how I'd enjoy this if I knew what I had been smoking.

Combined with everything else, I might have really psyched myself out on this one.

Funny to think that if I had gone the opposite of my feelings, I would be nearly aceing this test and Moki would really be at a loss to explain himself.

I will get to 8 early this afternoon after a half day of work today.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

floydpink said:


> Well, another surprise for sure.
> 
> I had always thought that the flavor of a Cohiba was unmistakeable.
> 
> ...


That's a really good question. I have no answer for you, but I think this is relevant:

_In 2001, Frederic Brochet, of the University of Bordeaux, conducted two separate and very mischievous experiments. In the first test, Brochet invited 57 wine experts and asked them to give their impressions of what looked like two glasses of red and white wine. The wines were actually the same white wine, one of which had been tinted red with food coloring. But that didn't stop the experts from describing the "red" wine in language typically used to describe red wines. One expert praised its "jamminess," while another enjoyed its "crushed red fruit." Not a single one noticed it was actually a white wine.

*The second test Brochet conducted was even more damning.* He took a middling Bordeaux and served it in two different bottles. One bottle was a fancy grand-cru. The other bottle was an ordinary vin du table. *Despite the fact that they were actually being served the exact same wine, the experts gave the differently labeled bottles nearly opposite ratings.* The grand cru was "agreeable, woody, complex, balanced and rounded," while the vin du table was "weak, short, light, flat and faulty". Forty experts said the wine with the fancy label was worth drinking, while only 12 said the cheap wine was._

Scary, isn't it?


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## DennisP (May 13, 2007)

I think the most recent cigar smoked really shows what is important to this thread. floyd described everything many of us would associate with a Dominican cigar when in fact it was a very expensive Cuban.

3 more to go, gl floyd!


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## icehog3 (Feb 20, 2005)

moki said:


> *The second test Brochet conducted was even more damning.* He took a middling Bordeaux and served it in two different bottles. One bottle was a fancy grand-cru. The other bottle was an ordinary vin du table. *Despite the fact that they were actually being served the exact same wine, the experts gave the differently labeled bottles nearly opposite ratings.* The grand cru was "agreeable, woody, complex, balanced and rounded," while the vin du table was "weak, short, light, flat and faulty". Forty experts said the wine with the fancy label was worth drinking, while only 12 said the cheap wine was.[/i]
> 
> Scary, isn't it?


Again, it shows how so much more than just our sense and/or perception of taste effect the experience and form our opinions. This has been extremely interesting so far, thank you both.


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## Mystophales (Aug 20, 2007)

Is it any wonder that so much money is spent on packaging and advertsing..cough...Gurkha...cough...

I can honestly say that I have bought cigars because of a pretty package but if it tasted like crap I didn't try and convince myself otherwise. I have had a few CC that were gifted to me(thanks again brothers!) but out of the three that I have tried I actually didn't like any of them. Not saying I am a expert (lol...far from it) but at one point I thought maybe I just didn't "get it".

I was given the advice of more than a few BOTL's not to worry about what someone else says but rather just smoke what you like. Now I am certainly not giving up on trying more and more cigars since I have barely scratched the surface (pretty sure 3 CC's is not indicative of them all after all...) since I have only smoked maybe 150 cigars total. This might sound sad but the best cigar I have had recently was 2 days ago when I tried my first El Mejor Espresso which I bought on C bid for $25 for a bundle of 20. I liked it a lot more than I liked the first Opus X I smoked...:r

So packaging can make a difference...sad but true. But if you are smoking something that you don't even like just because someone else says you should...well then maybe you have a few self esteem issues.

Not sure if this has been mentioned before but this is a GREAT THREAD!

:r


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## rumballs (Mar 15, 2005)

Another related link about wine:
http://goodwineunder20.blogspot.com/2008/01/blog-post.html


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## Scud (Sep 9, 2007)

I just finished 16 pages of reading and have to admit that it's been riveting. Moki, my hat is off to you for this excellent experiment. Floydpink, you're a brave man to undertake this type of blind experiment for the entire forum to see. 

So far, this has been great and I'm sure the end will offer an epiphany to all cigar smokers about the quality being produced right now.


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## gnukfu (Dec 19, 2007)

Mystophales said:


> Is it any wonder that so much money is spent on packaging and advertsing..cough...Gurkha...cough...
> 
> I can honestly say that I have bought cigars because of a pretty package but if it tasted like crap I didn't try and convince myself otherwise. I have had a few CC that were gifted to me(thanks again brothers!) but out of the three that I have tried I actually didn't like any of them. Not saying I am a expert (lol...far from it) but at one point I thought maybe I just didn't "get it".
> 
> ...


I was wondering about the same thing looking at the CAO Vision. The packaging looks pretty cool. I have never tried one but Cigar Afficianado liked the cigar (or was it the packaging/presentation?).


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

Getting close to the end... maybe a good thing, although I wouldn't mind doing it a little longer.

I have noticed that when you are concentrating so much, some of the simple smoking pleasure is gone for me and I've been at this for around 5 days now. Definitely not complaing and pretty sure I won't have a stream of cigars of this caliber flowing to my lighter anytime soon.

I'm also really trying to take each cigar individually and forget the last one. Without this attitude, I think I would just make my best judgement, then post the opposite and watch my success increase and look like an expert taster. At this point, I am shooting to give the best evaluation I can and guess athe same way.

NUMBER 8

I'm not doing a play by play on this one. I am going back to the scene of the Cohiba Maduro experience and spend an hour in the park on a really nice day here in Florida.

Number 8 appears to be a robusto with a darker wrapper, but I don't believe it's a maduro. Nice construction and yet another triple cap.

I am trying to picture what band would normally go on this cigar as I am believing I have smoked it not too long ago.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

...the plot thickens!...


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## daniyal (Oct 9, 2007)

Just stumbled on to this thread great work guys can't wait to read about #8


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

I've gotten into the habit of cutting a cigar and checking the draw before I head out if I am smoking where a draw tool won't be in reach, so this one was no different.

After cutting it and heading to out, the draw was effortless. The taste was a little familar as well.

After lighting and taking only one puff, it was POW!!! almost as if I had swallowed a spoonful of pepper. The cigar wasted no time in delivering a knockout blow to the point I sat down. 

This one is a full flavored bomb that packs a serious nicotine buzz. I would say it's probably not for new smokers nor ones that like smooth and lighter cigars.

By the midway point, it settled in and the intensity subsided slightky but never the spice.

I remember recently reading a gorilla describe, "spitting like a camel" when he smokes and I was glad I was outside as my mouthwatering never stopped until it was out.

This is the kind of cigar you had better have eaten a meal before smoking or it will put you on your ass.

I mentioned that i felt that I had smoked one of these recently and it evoked strong memories of an Opus X I had smoked a week ago.

All of the Cuban cigars so far have been mild to medium, and with the exception of one, fell short on the flavor I like.

This cigar was night and day to #7 and would satisfy fans of the strongest spiciest cigars.

I am giving it a very high rating as it was basically flawless and delivered a knockout punch. 

For the kind of cigar it is, I believe it is at the top of the heap as far as it's competition.

I also feel very strongly that this is not a Cuban cigar.

Origin: NOT CUBA

rating: 8.5/10 Same as the Cohiba maduro, but in a different way.


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## yayson (Aug 21, 2006)

looks kinda Cuban, the exposed vein toward the foot anyhoo, sounded well worth smoking :tu


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

Yeah, there were a lot of indications it might be Cuban including the way the cap looked.

I have never tasted, nor read a review, nor been in a conversation where I have heard of a Cuban with characteristics of this one, which is why I was lead to the Opus line.

I am wondering if I passed right over a Habano with such flavor but have only personally smoked enough to have none even near this spicy.

I'm also more positive on this one than any other and might be going down in a blaze of glory if this one is some well known Cuban like a R&J that played a real trick on me. Don't think so though. We shall see.

I will probably get #9 done tonight as well.


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## yayson (Aug 21, 2006)

floydpink said:


> Yeah, there were a lot of indications it might be Cuban including the way the cap looked.
> 
> I have never tasted, nor read a review, nor been in a conversation where I have heard of a Cuban with characteristics of this one, which is why I was lead to the Opus line.


well there you go, Opus and Cubans are night and day to me, but then, I smoke em with the bands on


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## ComicBookFreak (Sep 7, 2005)

This has been a very interesting thread to watch. Floydpink, I think you have been a very good sport about this. I recently began smoking more NC's then I had been, mostly Pepins and Fuentes. I still smoke mainly CC's. I definately wouldn't want to be in your shoes trying to guess at these as I have found some of the Pepins to be very good.

I would like to say, and I mean absolutely no disrespect by this, it would be interesting for a few of the more experienced (5-10 years) _*exclusive*_ Cuban cigar smokers to step up and try their luck. But would any be willing to step forward and give it a shot? I haven't noticed alot of comments here from the _*exclusive*_ Cuban cigar smokers here either.

I, myself, am not qualified as I have only been smoking for about 3 years and my palate still taste things like bacon, cotton candy and brand new roller skates.:r

CBF


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

CBF,

I have been wondering the same thing as I am far from the best candidate to judge Cuban or any cigar. I am certainly not going to call one of the elders out on this though. I have seen Icehog and RJT around the thread and consider both of them qualified if the opportunity were to arise.

Blueface also came to mind when I was mentally putting together a "dream team" of panelists as well as a half dozen others like Klugs and Pnoon, but doubt they even read this thread unless things get out of hand and someone goes balistic.


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## DennisP (May 13, 2007)

ComicBookFreak said:


> I would like to say, and I mean absolutely no disrespect by this, it would be interesting for a few of the more experienced (5-10 years) _*exclusive*_ Cuban cigar smokers to step up and try their luck. But would any be willing to step forward and give it a shot? I haven't noticed alot of comments here from the _*exclusive*_ Cuban cigar smokers here either.
> 
> CBF


I'm curious about that as well.


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## DBall (Jun 4, 2007)

It would definitely be cool to see a(n exclusively cuban smoking) FOG take this challenge. :tu


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## JCK (Nov 9, 2006)

floydpink said:


> CBF,
> 
> I have been wondering the same thing as I am far from the best candidate to judge Cuban or any cigar. I am certainly not going to call one of the elders out on this though. I have seen Icehog and RJT around the thread and consider both of them qualified if the opportunity were to arise.
> 
> Blueface also came to mind when I was mentally putting together a "dream team" of panelists as well as a half dozen others.


Brent, do you think it would be run better by someone that smokes Habanos exclusively for the past 5-10 years or predominately with some other variety smokes thrown in there.

I think it would skew the results a little. Would be the same as having someone that has exclusively smoked non-cubans for the past 5-10 years.


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## JCK (Nov 9, 2006)

I've seen Tom take interest in this thread... Admiral.. I salute you. Something like this might keep your butt from itching for however long it takes you to smoke the 10. :]


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

Just to really mix it up, I wouldn't mind putting Moki under the scope for a while but know he'd be the first to admit he'd have trouble, or he wouldn't have done this test to begin with.

I have been really thinking about how guys like Chibnkr and others definitely have much more refined palates than me as anyone paying the premium to keep vintage Cubans around isn't paying that kind of money to be confused.


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## ComicBookFreak (Sep 7, 2005)

floydpink said:


> CBF,
> 
> I have been wondering the same thing as I am far from the best candidate to judge Cuban or any cigar. I am certainly not going to call one of the elders out on this though. I have seen Icehog and RJT around the thread and consider both of them qualified if the opportunity were to arise.
> 
> Blueface also came to mind when I was mentally putting together a "dream team" of panelists as well as a half dozen others.


Just to be clear I by no means was putting down your effort. I think you have done an outstanding job and so has Moki.:tu

I am not calling anyone out, I would just like to see someone who only smokes Cubans for the last 5 years or so give it a try. Just to compare how they do, as this experiment has made me think alot about perception, and how it effects our smoking experience. I think we all would be surprised by some of the results.

CBF


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

floydpink said:


> I've gotten into the habit of cutting a cigar and checking the draw before I head out if I am smoking where a draw tool won't be in reach, so this one was no different.
> 
> After cutting it and heading to out, the draw was effortless. The taste was a little familar as well.
> 
> ...


_This one actually surprises me a bit more than any of the others... but for different reasons!_

*Cigar #8 results*

floydpink says:

Cigar rating: 8.5/10
Origin guess: ???
Cuban/non-Cuban: non-Cuban

Survey says:

Actual origin: Various
Cigar #8 is a: Graycliff Blue Label PG (5 ¼" x 50)

*Commentary:*

You got this cigar exactly right, in that it's not Cuban... but I remain surprised. Why? Because I've never found the Graycliff Blue Label cigars to be especially strong... though this is a freshie, so perhaps that explains it to an extent.

For my smoking $$, the Graycliff Espresso line is the only line of Graycliffs that I will spend the kind of money on that they sell for (I especially love the Elegante Espressos). All of their cigars are very well made, but they are also very expensive; I require a singular taste sensation if I'm going to pay $13 or so for a Robusto.

Graycliff says:

_ The Graycliff Blue Label Profesionale pays homage to the Red Label Original Blend with a smooth-burning Indonesian wrapper and tobacco from Brazil, the Dominican Republic and Nicaragua.

The Blue Label wins the award for beauty, as the outer leaf tends toward a more classic cosmetic face. Cigar manufacturing aficionados know that each cigar has a face (front) and a rear (literally backside). Veins are virtually nonexistent within the range of Graycliff Profesionale. Additionally, there is a much larger use of Brazilian tobacco, and therefore a smoother finish to these cigars._

Congrats on getting this one right in terms of country of origin... but I bet you'll be puzzled by the actual marca too! 

*Results so far:*

#1 - Cuban Montecristo Edmundo -- (5/10) guessed non-Cuban, Domincan or Honduran - _Incorrect_
#2 - Don Pepin Blue Label Imperiales Torpedo -- (8/10) guessed Cuban - _Incorrect_
#3 - Cuban Ramon Allones Estupendos (2006 RE Asia-Pacific) -- (4/10) guessed non-Cuban, Honduran - _Incorrect_
#4 - Cabaiguan WCD120 (scroll down) - (7/10) guessed Cuban - _Incorrect_
#5 - Cuban Cohiba Maduro 5 Genios - (8.5/10) guessed Cuban - _Correct!_
#6 - Flor Fina 858 Natural - (8/10) guessed Cuban - _Incorrect_
#7 - Cuban Cohiba Selección Reserva Esplendido - (7.5/10) guessed non-Cuban, Dominican - _Incorrect_
#8 - Graycliff Blue Label PG - (8.5/10) guessed non-Cuban - _Correct!_

*Score:* Cigars 6, floydpink 2


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## Lanthor (Jun 16, 2007)

Pete, do you nose smoke at all?


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## ComicBookFreak (Sep 7, 2005)

khubli said:


> Brent, do you think it would be run better by someone that smokes Habanos exclusively for the past 5-10 years or predominately with some other variety smokes thrown in there.
> 
> I think it would skew the results a little. Would be the same as having someone that has exclusively smoked non-cubans for the past 5-10 years.


I think Moki has done a fantastic job running it. And in no way think someone else should have. Moki is very knowledgable and I think this has been a great and nicely carried out experiment.

You bring up some good points, but I still would like to see if a "seasoned" FOG could pick out the Cubans from the NC's. Would it skew the results? I am not sure. But I definately catch what you are saying. As I mentioned I have recently started smoking more NC's after smoking only cuban's for the past year and a half and the Pepin's are very, very good and close to Cuban imho.

CBF


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

Lanthor said:


> Pete, do you nose smoke at all?


Yes, especially when I am smoking a Cuban.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

ComicBookFreak said:


> I would like to say, and I mean absolutely no disrespect by this, it would be interesting for a few of the more experienced (5-10 years) _*exclusive*_ Cuban cigar smokers to step up and try their luck. But would any be willing to step forward and give it a shot? I haven't noticed alot of comments here from the _*exclusive*_ Cuban cigar smokers here either.
> CBF


CBF, as I mentioned in the thread already, I've been involved in blind taste tests with "exclusive" Cuban cigar smokers with well over 15 years of experience. I've seen them fall flat on their face too.

Which leads to the question: If you can't recognize a Cuban cigar when you smoke it with any consistency, why do you claim to be a "Cuban cigar smoker"? Certainly taste isn't the reason... 

But I know how it goes; people will shake their heads, think it is floydpink's failing, and smugly believe they can do better. I assure you that floydpink also thought he would do better until we began the test...


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

ComicBookFreak said:


> I think Moki has done a fantastic job running it. And in no way think someone else should have. Moki is very knowledgable and I think this has been a great and nicely carried out experiment.
> 
> You bring up some good points, but I still would like to see if a "seasoned" FOG could pick out the Cubans from the NC's. Would it skew the results? I am not sure. But I definately catch what you are saying. As I mentioned I have recently started smoking more NC's after smoking only cuban's for the past yearand a half and the Pepin's are very, very good and close to Cuban imho.
> 
> CBF


Believe me, the last thing I would do after this humbling experience is call out a FOG and feel the jungle has been extremely kind to me considering my comments in the Opus/Anejo thread were what got me called out in the first place. Ignorant comments I might add.

Personally, I haven't seen anything disrespectful said and hope the elders are in agreement.

#9 coming up later...


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## DennisP (May 13, 2007)

moki said:


> CBF, as I mentioned in the thread already, I've been involved in blind taste tests with "exclusive" Cuban cigar smokers with well over 15 years of experience. I've seen them fall flat on their face too.
> 
> Which leads to the question: If you can't recognize a Cuban cigar when you smoke it with any consistency, why do you claim to be a "Cuban cigar smoker"? Certainly taste isn't the reason...
> 
> But I know how it goes; people will shake their heads, think it is floydpink's failing, and smugly believe they can do better. I assure you that floydpink also thought he would do better until we began the test...


I think we want to see it just for the knowledge and entertainment we are getting from this thread, not that we don't think the results will be similar.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

floydpink said:


> Just to really mix it up, I wouldn't mind putting Moki under the scope for a while but know he'd be the first to admit he'd have trouble, or he wouldn't have done this test to begin with.


Since we're getting near the end of the taste test, I can tell you that I'm in the middle of a blind taste test right now. I'm currently 7/8 (with 2 cigars to go) in terms of getting the country of origin correct.

How am I doing this, if I contend that there is no grand unifying Cuban cigar taste? I'll answer that mystery, and post a link to the blind taste test that I'm involved in, when this blind taste test comes to a close.


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## ComicBookFreak (Sep 7, 2005)

moki said:


> CBF, as I mentioned in the thread already, I've been involved in blind taste tests with "exclusive" Cuban cigar smokers with well over 15 years of experience. I've seen them fall flat on their face too.
> 
> Which leads to the question: If you can't recognize a Cuban cigar when you smoke it with any consistency, why do you claim to be a "Cuban cigar smoker"? Certainly taste isn't the reason...
> 
> But I know how it goes; people will shake their heads, think it is floydpink's failing, and smugly believe they can do better. I assure you that floydpink also thought he would do better until we began the test...


I agree totally. Not shaking my head at all. I think floydpink has done a great job. I know I couldn't do better. I in no way was trying to put down his efforts.

I always hear Cubans are better from so many, but when it comes to the blind taste they don't wanna participate for fear of getting caught with their pants down. So I guess it goes back to what you just said, "If you can't recognize a Cuban cigar when you smoke it with any consistency, why do you claim to be a "Cuban cigar smoker"? Certainly taste isn't the reason... "

I myself enjoy both NC and Cuban cigars. And I try to smoke according to what I like, instead of what seems to be the "Cigar de jour". 

Great job by both Moki and floydpink.:tu


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

ComicBookFreak said:


> I agree totally. Not shaking my head at all. I think floydpink has done a great job. I know I couldn't do better. I in no way was trying to put down his efforts.
> 
> I always hear Cubans are better from so many, but when it comes to the blind taste they don't wanna participate for fear of getting caught with their pants down. So I guess it goes back to what you just said, "If you can't recognize a Cuban cigar when you smoke it with any consistency, why do you claim to be a "Cuban cigar smoker"? Certainly taste isn't the reason... "
> 
> I myself enjoy both NC and Cuban cigars. And I try to smoke according to what I like, instead of what seems to be the "Cigar de jour".


Ditto... I enjoy cigars from many countries. But I still fall into ruts, so it's nice to do a blind taste test once in a while to re-calibrate your taste buds.

As a for-instance, my general opinion is that the "Punch" Cuban marca is relatively boring to me... nice enough cigars, but lacking the depth of taste I tend to enjoy. Well, in this most recent blind taste testing I'm doing, one of the cigars was a Punch SS#2... which I thought was a very enjoyable cigar.

So now I need to revise my opinion slightly, and perhaps pick some up.


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## ComicBookFreak (Sep 7, 2005)

moki said:


> Ditto... I enjoy cigars from many countries. But I still fall into ruts, so it's nice to do a blind taste test once in a while to re-calibrate your taste buds.
> 
> As a for-instance, my general opinion is that the "Punch" Cuban marca is relatively boring to me... nice enough cigars, but lacking the depth of taste I tend to enjoy. Well, in this most recent blind taste testing I'm doing, one of the cigars was a Punch SS#2... which I thought was a very enjoyable cigar.
> 
> So now I need to revise my opinion slightly, and perhaps pick some up.


The Punch SS#2's are a great cigar, I only have about 5 or so left. Kind of a hard one to find these days, but I agree it is a different kind of "Punch". And a much stronger one than other Punch's I have tried too.

CBF


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## pistol (Mar 23, 2006)

moki said:


> Well, in this most recent blind taste testing I'm doing, one of the cigars was a Punch SS#2... which I thought was a very enjoyable cigar.
> 
> So now I need to revise my opinion slightly, and perhaps pick some up.


mmmm SS#2, I wish I had some more of those!:ss


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## glking (Jul 20, 2007)

Don't mean to threadjack this great thread, but I just saw this article by the AP on "perceived" taste:

Raising Prices Enhances Wine Sales


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## mash (Jul 24, 2007)

Regardless of how generalizable you think these results are, the one thing that is clear to me is how generous Moki has been in supplying these smokes. Some of them are very expensive. Guess he's pleased they've supported his hypothesis.


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## adsantos13 (Oct 10, 2006)

Just wanted to interject say to both Moki and Floydpink: Thanks for making this great thread happen. A++++++ 

Carry on...


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## JBI (Oct 20, 2006)

IMHO, some non-Cuban cigars (particularly from Nicaragua) have come so far in the last couple of years that the taste/blend/profile/body etc...tends to have blurred the lines a bit as far as an easy distinction between them and Havana's. I think much of that has to do with better strains and variations of tobacco, better quality tobacco, the ability to age it longer and more specifically, better blending techniques. The larger manufacturers with all their cash flow and tobacco inventories, still just seem to put out institutional blends for the masses that don't fair very well in comparison with the smaller boutique guys in most aspects, especially more recently. Furthermore, Cubans' lack the power, strength and punch they once possessed prior to the boom (late 80's early 90's) and non Cubans' have stepped it up in the full-body/full-flavor arena. :ss


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## Silound (May 22, 2007)

I agree with CBF on this one. 

I pick my smokes based on the mood I'm in and what I feel like drinking or eating to accompany them. I do prefer CC's more over NC's as a regular smoke, but smoking is about relaxing and I enjoy relaxing with whatever I feel like at that moment.


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## icehog3 (Feb 20, 2005)

khubli said:


> I've seen Tom take interest in this thread... Admiral.. I salute you. Something like this might keep your butt from itching for however long it takes you to smoke the 10. :]


While I appreciate the salute, I would say that I have been smoking Cubans in abundance for only about 3 years, and about 90-95% Cuban the last two. I think there are Brothers here much more experienced and qualified than me if you are looking for someone with true long-term experience to see if their result would be better than FPs.

The funniest thing about this thread is it made me go smoke a couple NCs that I have been gifted and had never tried before this week.....and both of them were pretty darned good.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

mash said:


> Regardless of how generalizable you think these results are, the one thing that is clear to me is how generous Moki has been in supplying these smokes. Some of them are very expensive. Guess he's pleased they've supported his hypothesis.


I'd have been surprised if the outcome was different, because it would be contrary to my experience, but I would not be disappointed at all.

I find the whole process to be entertaining and educational; the outcome is secondary to what you learn along the way.


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## Bax (Sep 12, 2007)

mash said:


> Regardless of how generalizable you think these results are, the one thing that is clear to me is how generous Moki has been in supplying these smokes. Some of them are very expensive. Guess he's pleased they've supported his hypothesis.


To be sure, lot of props have to go out to Moki for this thread. Makes me feel a little better about my modest NC collection. :tu


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## Da Klugs (Jan 8, 2005)

moki said:


> I'd have been surprised if the outcome was different, because it would be contrary to my experience, but I would not be disappointed at all.
> 
> I find the whole process to be entertaining and educational; the outcome is secondary to what you learn along the way.


Cool idea. Be interested in the results with a FOG palate. Brandon and the same test might be interesting. Crazy mofo picks not just brand and vitola but year. The concept of age might be a neat addition as well. Use only 10+ year old cigars.


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

Before we make the final analasis, i would like to finish the last 2 cigars, ok? I think 9 looks interesting


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## rx2010 (Jan 4, 2007)

floydpink said:


> Before we make the final analasis, i would like to finish the last 2 cigars, ok? I think 9 looks interesting


well get smokin!


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

Da Klugs said:


> Cool idea. Be interested in the results with a FOG palate. Brandon and the same test might be interesting. Crazy mofo picks not just brand and vitola but year. The concept of age might be a neat addition as well. Use only 10+ year old cigars.


I'd be more than happy to challenge him. I fully believe he can do that for marcas and vitolas he knows well; I can do that too. But it is merely an illusion; rote memorization and empirical deduction.

Give someone a Cuban cigar that they are not familiar with, or non-Cuban cigars with complex profiles, and it all falls apart. I'll have more to say on this later...

I have seen VERY experienced Habanos smokers fall flat on their face... It's just hard; we all think we know more than we really do. Perception vs. Reality


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

Ok, here is 9. Looks like it possibly has plume and smells very nice before lighting,


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

The first third of this has been nice and I'm running out of words to describe flavors.

One that comes to mind on this one is sublime and it has some nice, complex flavors. I have a feeling it is going to turn out to be a sought after cigar that, in hindsight, I will be glad i had a chance to smoke once it's identity is revealed.

The ash is very light gray and the burn is even and good.

I am under the impression I may be smoking a maduro and am also under them impression I probably should know that. I am basing that statement on the color of the wrapper and the flavors I am experiencing.


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## Da Klugs (Jan 8, 2005)

moki said:


> I'd be more than happy to challenge him. I fully believe he can do that for marcas and vitolas he knows well; I can do that too. But it is merely an illusion; rote memorization and empirical deduction.
> 
> Give someone a Cuban cigar that they are not familiar with, or non-Cuban cigars with complex profiles, and it all falls apart. I'll have more to say on this later...
> 
> I have seen VERY experienced Habanos smokers fall flat on their face... It's just hard; we all think we know more than we really do. Perception vs. Reality


Agree on current production. For many here the issue is what they taste like with age on them. What has been your experience with age on NC cigars. The stereotype is that they do not typically "evolve" like Cuban cigars. In your experience, is this an accurate statement or just a byproduct of either too small a representative group of collectors or the Cuban mystique?


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

At the halfway mark, I am not ready to make my rating yet, but have smoked emough to make the final conclusions that I don't see changing, but will edit if necessary.

1. The cigar has at least 4 years of age on it.
2. It is a maduro.
3. It is highly rated. My guess would be 92 if Mr. Suckling was doing this review.
4. It is not Cuban.


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

I am not rushing to judgement, but am nearing the end and feel comfortable posting my findings:

Origin. Not Cuba. Nicaragua would be my guess.
Rating: 8.25/10

I have a feeling this cigar is probably a favorite for some and I also have a feeling it comes from a well known blender with a long history of great cigars. 

I'm not sure that I would actively seek it for my normal rotation but would smoke it again gladly. I believe this one will be another one that others would rate much higher.

I am nearly as confident that this is not Cuban as I was about the Graycliff I smoked earlier.

Speaking of evolving, I believe this cigar, as I stated earlier, has some age and has evolved to it's prime.


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## JCK (Nov 9, 2006)

ComicBookFreak said:


> I think Moki has done a fantastic job running it. And in no way think someone else should have. Moki is very knowledgable and I think this has been a great and nicely carried out experiment.
> 
> You bring up some good points, but I still would like to see if a "seasoned" FOG could pick out the Cubans from the NC's. Would it skew the results? I am not sure. But I definately catch what you are saying. As I mentioned I have recently started smoking more NC's after smoking only cuban's for the past year and a half and the Pepin's are very, very good and close to Cuban imho.
> 
> CBF


oops when I typed 'run' I meant tested...


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

Da Klugs said:


> Agree on current production. For many here the issue is what they taste like with age on them. What has been your experience with age on NC cigars. The stereotype is that they do not typically "evolve" like Cuban cigars. In your experience, is this an accurate statement or just a byproduct of either too small a representative group of collectors or the Cuban mystique?


Tobacco is tobacco... Quality tobacco, Cuban or non-Cuban will age and improve over time, if stored properly.

It's really only recently (within the past 10-15 years) that really high quality non-Cuban cigars have been available, and as such, most people are not familiar with how well they age and mature.

I've had some spectacular aged non-Cuban cigars like OR Opus, OR Padron 1964s, VSG Rounds, etc., all with more than 10 years of age on them, which were utterly spectacular.


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## Da Klugs (Jan 8, 2005)

Makes too much sense.  :tu


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

floydpink said:


> The first third of this has been nice and I'm running out of words to describe flavors.
> 
> One that comes to mind on this one is sublime and it has some nice, complex flavors. I have a feeling it is going to turn out to be a sought after cigar that, in hindsight, I will be glad i had a chance to smoke once it's identity is revealed.
> 
> ...


_Now this is an interesting one indeed... and you've been very perceptive as well... see below!_

*Cigar #9 results*

floydpink says:

Cigar rating: 8.25/10
Origin guess: Nicaraguan
Cuban/non-Cuban: non-Cuban

Survey says:

Actual origin: Dominican
Cigar #9 is a: Ashton VSG "Round" Robusto (5 ½" x 50)

*Commentary:*

I'm glad you enjoyed this cigar; it is one of my favorite cigars in the blind taste test. Of course, tastes vary, but I think these are fantastic. They are pre-release versions of the famed Ashton VSG cigars, created before the decision to box-press VSGs was made.

They are from 1997, and the one you smoked is from a cab of 50 that I have resting in my humidor. It goes to show you how well a non-Cuban cigar can do with some age on 'em... 11 years in this case!

You're obviously right about Carlito Fuente having a long history of making great cigars... and I happen to concur that it deserves a high rating. 

You're also right that it has more than 4 years of age on it (it has 11), but it is not a Maduro... it is Ecuadorian Sun Grown. Thus Virgin Sun Grown or VSG.

Would you have ever guessed that this was an Ashton VSG (albeit a rare, aged one)? 

Just one cigar to go until the taste test is over! It'd been a great, informative journey for all involved, I think! I've personally loved reading your reviews, Peter.

*Results so far:*

#1 - Cuban Montecristo Edmundo -- (5/10) guessed non-Cuban, Domincan or Honduran - _Incorrect_
#2 - Don Pepin Blue Label Imperiales Torpedo -- (8/10) guessed Cuban - _Incorrect_
#3 - Cuban Ramon Allones Estupendos (2006 RE Asia-Pacific) -- (4/10) guessed non-Cuban, Honduran - _Incorrect_
#4 - Cabaiguan WCD120 (scroll down) - (7/10) guessed Cuban - _Incorrect_
#5 - Cuban Cohiba Maduro 5 Genios - (8.5/10) guessed Cuban - _Correct!_
#6 - Flor Fina 858 Natural - (8/10) guessed Cuban - _Incorrect_
#7 - Cuban Cohiba Selección Reserva Esplendido - (7.5/10) guessed non-Cuban, Dominican - _Incorrect_
#8 - Graycliff Blue Label PG - (8.5/10) guessed non-Cuban - _Correct!_
#9 - Ashton VSG "Round" Robusto - (8.25/10) guessed non-Cuban, Nicaraguan - _Correct!_

*Score:* Cigars 6, floydpink 3


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## yayson (Aug 21, 2006)

moki said:


> It goes to show you how well a non-Cuban cigar can do with some age on 'em... 11 years in this case!


fantastic cigar there and while I've never had one close to that old I have indeed experienced the difference that a year will make on these, dramatic and outstanding!


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## wh0re (Apr 26, 2007)

moki, unless I'm mistaken the Cohiba Maduro 5 is a relatively new release right? What kind of age did that one have on it?

Thanks to both of you for doing this!!!!


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

Well, one more to go and I think I am finally getting a little more perceptive.

I will certainly be smoking more of the Ashtons I just smoked.

I can safely conclude that many of the Non Cubans are very surprising in a very positive way. I think it's safe to say I have opened my mind and will close my mouth regarding non Cuban cigars.

Before I get to the last cigar, which I have a feeling Moki might have planned as a grand finale, I wanted to take a second to thank Moki.

You opened your heart as well as your impressive humidor and guided me through a journey I won't ever forget.

You obviously have studied cigars and their relation to human nature extensively and I believe that you put a lot of thought into this experiment.

You came in certain there would be surprises and I would have a difficult time distinguishing the cigars using only some visual and taste indicators.

You were right and handled yourself like a gentleman.

To me, you are what Club Stogie stands for as far as sharing years of knowlege, straightening out a misguided gorilla, and amazing generosity.

The world needs more of this my friend.

Be back later for #10 and I hope to finish with a win.


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## JCK (Nov 9, 2006)

floydpink said:


> .....You opened your heart as well as your impressive humidor and guided me through a journey I won't ever forget....


*Journey to Chateau de la Moki*

Andrew, thank you so much for hosting this taste test. I've enjoyed following it cigar by cigar with Pete's tasting notes on each.

Pete thanks for blindly reviewing each one of these cigars. The results on some of these cigars was eye-opening to say the least.

It'll be awhile before I can give each of you RG again, but both of you definately deserve more.

Thanks,
Ji


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## DennisP (May 13, 2007)

Looking at some cigars smoked and revelations made, maybe it is fitting that floydpink's RG is currently 898. :tu


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

Ok, here is the final cigar of the 10 that came so well packaged to my house about a week ago.

This one is a Robusto with a natural wrapper.


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## billybarue (Mar 20, 2006)

floydpink said:


> ......
> To me, you are what Club Stogie stands for as far as sharing years of knowlege, ......
> 
> The world needs more of this my friend.
> ...


Very well said - Moki is a real and true asset to clubstogie. Huge amount of knowledge and information that he shares generously from, as well as his humidor.

I must say your reviews have been excellent and your conduct was nothing short of gentlemanly as well. I would give you more RG if I could. It has been a great ride. BTW, thanks for getting through the reviews so quickly and diligently. I don't know if you had to hurry yourself, but it really kept the thread rolling as we all have been waiting on the edge of our seats!!

Joe (BillyBarue)


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

REVIEW OF CIGAR #!0

First third: Fantastic cigar. One thing that is jumping out is how white the ash is as well as extremely firm. I have a feeling it could hold the ash to the midway point. Anyway, I'm not reviewing ashes.

This cigar has a lot of complexity already and is not nearly as spicy as some and is beginning to show some characteristics that are pointing to one place...


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## DennisP (May 13, 2007)

DennisP said:


> Looking at some cigars smoked and revelations made, maybe it is fitting that floydpink's RG is currently 898. :tu


Well, that didn't last long.


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## Mystophales (Aug 20, 2007)

Anybody else read this thread and just have your mouth water damn near the whole time? 

I don't normally smoke a cigar before I head to bed (I work nights) but damn if can help myself...:r


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

At the halfway point, I im in a dillemma. 

This is turning to be one of the best cigars of the bunch and I am wondering how my rating is going to look as I am going to feel bad rating it higher than the Cohiba Maduro and wish I had given the Cohiba a higher score.

I am going to ignore the past ratings, chalk it up to a learning curve, and concentrate on this cigar.

It is everything I lok for in a cigar and will possibly become one of my top cigars.
It is about as good as I can recall smoking in a long time.


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## wayner123 (Mar 29, 2007)

Hey,

Not meaning anything deconstructive by this, but I got to ask.

Do you think the rate at which you are smoking these may have an effect on the tastes/flavors that you are getting? I mean I realize 3 a day is not a huge number, but unless you are cleaning your palate completely you may be getting leftover flavors from the previous cigars. Just a thought :ss:tu


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

This cigar was a perfect cigar to finish the test with and told a story for me and there was a lot of ironies in it being 10.

Have you ever smoked a great cigar, and at the end you put it to rest and walk away, only to walk back and make sure there isn't a few more puffs left? This was one of those.

For me, it's sometimes hard to find the time to smoke a larger cigar due to life getting in the way, so I smoke more robustos than anything.

One of the marks of a great cigars, for me, is three different parts normally split into thirds.

If I put down a larger cigar, I feel like I missed part of the story.

This one finished strong and the end was one that will have me thinking of this cigar for a long time.

I can't really think of anything that would have improved it, and although I may regret it, I have to rate it the highest of all of them.

I have a strange feeling that rating it higher than the Cohiba might make me look foolish, but have to do it, although there may be a twist once Moki reveals its identity.

Cigar origin: Cuba. If not, the point of this experiment was just driven home in a big way.

Rating:

9/10


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

wayner123 said:


> Hey,
> 
> Not meaning anything deconstructive by this, but I got to ask.
> 
> Do you think the rate at which you are smoking these may have an effect on the tastes/flavors that you are getting? I mean I realize 3 a day is not a huge number, but unless you are cleaning your palate completely you may be getting leftover flavors from the previous cigars. Just a thought :ss:tu


Doubt it wayner. I woke up, brushed my teeth, ground fresh coffee and brewed fresh expresso from my new machine and kissed my daughter. My palate was clean I think.

hope that helps.


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## JCK (Nov 9, 2006)

Pete.. Excellent review on the last cigar! Can you place any of the flavors you experienced in this cigar. It sounds like there was a great level of complexity in it. Again, this isn't based on the flavor, but the wrapper and solid white ash reminds me of some Ecuadorian Sun Grown wrappers I've smoked before, but I don't have much to go on in terms of the smoking nuances.


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## wayner123 (Mar 29, 2007)

floydpink said:


> Doubt it wayner. I woke up, brushed my teeth, ground fresh coffee and brewed fresh expresso from my new machine and kissed my daughter. My palate was clean I think.
> 
> hope that helps.


Every time??


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

khubli said:


> Pete.. Excellent review on the last cigar! Can you place any of the flavors you experienced in this cigar. It sounds like there was a great level of complexity in it. Again, this isn't based on the flavor, but the wrapper and solid white ash reminds me of some Ecuadorian Sun Grown wrappers I've smoked before, but I don't have much to go on in terms of the smoking nuances.


Ji,

I guess the ash threw me off a bit, but I forced myself to ignore that as well as the fact the cap initially appeared to be a single cap until the head was a little moist and I believe it was actually triple capped.

As far as flavors, I noticed many of the earthy flavors and "twang" that I have always associated with Habanos.

I had a hard time putting names to the flavors, but boy were they there in great numbers.


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## Scud (Sep 9, 2007)

Excellent and amazing few days of reviewing cigars, FP. Moki and you easily made this the best learning/lesson on differences between cigars I've ever read.


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## cbsmokin (Oct 10, 2007)

On the edge of my seat for final results. This is one of the best threads I have read in awhile. RG to both parties.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

floydpink said:


> REVIEW OF CIGAR #!0
> 
> First third: Fantastic cigar. One thing that is jumping out is how white the ash is as well as extremely firm. I have a feeling it could hold the ash to the midway point. Anyway, I'm not reviewing ashes.
> 
> ...


_Ah, very fitting that you enjoyed this cigar most of all... and it is a crescendo, of sorts... just not the sort you might expect!_

*Cigar #10 results*

floydpink says:

Cigar rating: 9/10
Origin guess: Cuba
Cuban/non-Cuban: Cuban

Survey says:

Actual origin: Dominican
Cigar #10 is a: Don Carlos Senior Blend Robusto (5" x 50)

*Commentary:*

This cigar was indeed saved for last for a reason... I thought it would be a cigar that you would give a good review to, and I thought you might get it wrong. Thing is, I can't blame you for either one... these Don Carlos Senior Blend Robustos are the cigars that the old man smokes, they are Don Carlos's personal cigars.

And they are damned fine cigars at that. The one you smoked is a relatively young one, these taste even more divine with age. So hopefully this does indeed drive home the experiment, for all of its foibles!

At least this shows that not all rare cigars are hype. These cigars are made for smokin'! 

*Results so far:*

#1 - Cuban Montecristo Edmundo -- (5/10) guessed non-Cuban, Domincan or Honduran - _Incorrect_
#2 - Don Pepin Blue Label Imperiales Torpedo -- (8/10) guessed Cuban - _Incorrect_
#3 - Cuban Ramon Allones Estupendos (2006 RE Asia-Pacific) -- (4/10) guessed non-Cuban, Honduran - _Incorrect_
#4 - Cabaiguan WCD120 (scroll down) - (7/10) guessed Cuban - _Incorrect_
#5 - Cuban Cohiba Maduro 5 Genios - (8.5/10) guessed Cuban - _Correct!_
#6 - Flor Fina 858 Natural - (8/10) guessed Cuban - _Incorrect_
#7 - Cuban Cohiba Selección Reserva Esplendido - (7.5/10) guessed non-Cuban, Dominican - _Incorrect_
#8 - Graycliff Blue Label PG - (8.5/10) guessed non-Cuban - _Correct!_
#9 - Ashton VSG "Round" Robusto - (8.25/10) guessed non-Cuban, Nicaraguan - _Correct!_
#10 - Don Carlos Senior Blend Robusto - (9/10) guessed Cuban - _Incorrect_

*Final Score:* Cigars 7, floydpink 3


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## SmokinApe (Jun 20, 2007)

Great thread...


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

So, the blind taste test is over. I've said plenty in this thread along the way in terms of my thoughts on cigars, tastings, etc., so I think I'll largely shut my yap (except for an excerpt below) for now and let floydpink take the floor with any closing comments he might have.

Thanks for participating, Peter, I hope you enjoyed it. Here are the final results:

#1 - Cuban Montecristo Edmundo -- (5/10) guessed non-Cuban, Domincan or Honduran - _Incorrect_
#2 - Don Pepin Blue Label Imperiales Torpedo -- (8/10) guessed Cuban - _Incorrect_
#3 - Cuban Ramon Allones Estupendos (2006 RE Asia-Pacific) -- (4/10) guessed non-Cuban, Honduran - _Incorrect_
#4 - Cabaiguan WCD120 (scroll down) - (7/10) guessed Cuban - _Incorrect_
#5 - Cuban Cohiba Maduro 5 Genios - (8.5/10) guessed Cuban - _Correct!_
#6 - Flor Fina 858 Natural - (8/10) guessed Cuban - _Incorrect_
#7 - Cuban Cohiba Selección Reserva Esplendido - (7.5/10) guessed non-Cuban, Dominican - _Incorrect_
#8 - Graycliff Blue Label PG - (8.5/10) guessed non-Cuban - _Correct!_
#9 - Ashton VSG "Round" Robusto - (8.25/10) guessed non-Cuban, Nicaraguan - _Correct!_
#10 - Don Carlos Senior Blend Robusto - (9/10) guessed Cuban - _Incorrect_

*Final Score:* Cigars 7, floydpink 3

.....

*Average rating of Cuban cigars:* 6.25
*Average rating of non-Cuban cigars:* 8.125

*Highest rated cigar:* non-Cuban Don Carlos Senior Blend Robusto - (9/10)
*Lowest rated cigar:* Cuban Ramon Allones Estupendos (2006 RE Asia-Pacific) - (4/10)

So it appears that at least based on the limited test that we did here, not only do you not prefer Cuban cigars, but you don't particularly like them. 

Obviously for our test to be statistically significant, a much larger sample size would have to be used, etc, etc., but I think the point has been driven home. It's much harder to tell the country of origin of a cigar by taste than most people believe. And if you can't tell the taste of Cuban cigars when you smoke them, what reason would you have for claiming you prefer them?

It's an interesting question to ponder indeed, and I'm speaking in a general sense, not to floydpink when I pose the question above.

In the end, I would say that you should smoke what you like, don't get caught up in fancy bands or the "Cuban cigar mystique"... because neither come into play in blind taste tests at all. And blind taste tests are all about what cigars you actually prefer.

A cigar is a cigar, no matter where it is from. "non-Cuban" is about a useful term as "non-French" is when it relates to wine... that is, it's not useful at all, and in fact it's often used in a discriminatory and disparaging way.

Anyone who says "This is really good for a n/c cigar" or "This is one of my favorite n/c cigars" has lost my respect utterly. It either is or is not a good cigar, there should not be any prejudiced caveats applied. It's akin to saying "You're one of my favorite non-white friends", with all of the unfortunate biases that come along with it.

Cigars are cigars people... no conditions, no caveats, no disclaimers. If you don't believe me, take the bands off, and try a blind taste test yourself!

.....

...and if anyone wants to see the blind taste test I'm involved in, here it is! I'm going to crib some notes from it:

I think it's very hard to pick out Cuban/non Cuban from arbitrary cigar, however if you've smoked a lot of various marcas of cigars, it's much easier to recognize the taste profiles of cigars you know intimately.

In that sense, it becomes more a matter of rote memorization of various taste profiles, as opposed to the ability to pick country of origin based on taste. People who know cigars well don't generally say "This tastes Cuban", they say "This tastes like a Cohiba Siglo II... so it's Cuban"

Give someone Cuban and non-Cuban cigars they've never had before -- or have rarely had -- and the problem becomes infinitely more difficult to get right.

Oh, and of course there are the hints that have absolutely nothing to do with taste... like the vitola, the wrapper, the triple cap/construction, etc., all of which allow people who are very experienced with cigars to have a pretty good idea of what a cigar might be before even lighting it up.

For instance, there are a few cigars in the bunch that just by looking at them, I'm pretty darn sure what they are.

Has nothing to do with being able to taste Cuban vs. non-Cuban, just has to do with knowing what certain cigars are... and even then, it's much harder than people think it is.


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## tecnorobo (Mar 29, 2005)

This thread gets two :tu


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## gnukfu (Dec 19, 2007)

Wow!! Awesome thread. It was fun to follow along and quite the educational experience for me. Thanks Moki and PF! 
I take it from the link for the Don Carlos Senior Blend Robusto that you can't buy one of those since those are made for his personal use only unless he gives you one. I wonder what one of those would sell for.


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## yayson (Aug 21, 2006)

and now let's have a blind tasting forum category

I'd love to see this done more often, there's lots to learn from viewing or moreso by being involved

great job floydpink and moki, I'm glad you both stuck to the task and saw it through


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## jkorp (Sep 27, 2007)

Well done guys. This was so very enjoyable to see unfold. :tu


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## zmancbr (Nov 20, 2007)

Great job with this Thread. Moki, great selection of cigars. You did a fantastic job of arranging them in a good order to smoke. 

floydpink, you have been a great contestant and I am glad to see you open your eyes to NC. Many of the ones on this list are ones I stock in my humi. 

The Don Carlos is my #1 cigar period. No it isn't the Carlos reserve just the regular blend. But I still can't get over how good the Don carlos is. One of the most mellow yet complex cigars in my mouth. I have a hard time putting one down and I always take my time enjoying them. It is also challenging for me to age them since all I wanna do is smoke them. :r

Anyway, great job guys!!:tu


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## bazookajoe (Nov 2, 2006)

Moki, this has been a fascinating read. I thought floydpink made some bold statements in the previous thread but has been very open and humble during this test. Both of you have been gentlemen as has been noted many times.

I've smoked less than 2 dozen cuban cigars and have only found a few of them to be enjoyable enough to want more. Granted, my experience is very limited and I don't have the kind of aged sticks I see reviewed on this site, but I have had many non cubans that I liked more and just don't understand why so many seem to prefer cubans and won't even buy non cubans. I figured my palate must not refined enough to taste what others are tasting in their cubans. That still may be the case, but I think the bottom line is that each of our tastes are different, and free from the bondage of preconceptions (and cigar bands) we really do know what we like.


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## Rahllin (May 25, 2007)

Aww, I can't believe its all over ( Great to see that it was an eye-opening experience like it was meant to be.


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

I'm also about ready to shut my yap and realize my 15 minutes of fame is over and happily crawl into the shadows for a while.

I never would have believed a Don Carlos would be my favorite cigar, but would never had anything to base that on other than other people's comments.

I also never would have believed that a regional release Ramon Allones would be my least favorite. That, I would have based on the other Ramon Allones cigars I have really enjoyed in the past, although a recent box of Small Club Coronas has been buried in my humidor for a rest as I have not enjoyed the first few so much.

I would really enjoy seeing some other gorillas getting their hands on the cigar the old man smokes and giving their impression of it.

It knocked my socks off and was a fitting finish to this experience.

Thanks everyone for reading this and for your input. See ya around.

Floydpink out!


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

floydpink said:


> I'm also about ready to shut my yap and realize my 15 minutes of fame is over and happily crawl into the shadows for a while.


Before you do that... anything you learned in our experiment, or any singular moments that stood out?


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## duhman (Dec 3, 2007)

I am absolutely awestruck by this experiment. Thank-you FloydPink & Moki for putting this on.
One thing that bothers me now is, what am I to think about others' recommendations of this cigar or that as being supreme? I am going to have to try every one now! And different years! I'm going to have to build a room-ador.


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## rx2010 (Jan 4, 2007)

seriously, this was an excellent thread, kudos to you both


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

moki said:


> Before you do that... anything you learned in our experiment, or any singular moments that stood out?


I was wondering if I should finish with that, so I can add this:

Most surprising moment: Hearing the Ramon Allones was a Cuban as I had a very hard time finishing it, then finding great relief in the Cabaiguan and obviously finding out it was not Cuban.

Biggest letdown: Ramon.

regret: not picking the Pepin #2 as such as all indications were it was a Pepin. Probably also not rating the Cohiba higher due to the fact i though there was something better coming and wanted to save the higher rating. I need to really explore this cigar some more as it was near flawless and I can only imagine how it will be in a few years.

Best cigar: very close between the Cohiba Maduo and the last cigar.

I learned a lot. Mostly, that perhaps all the time I spent waiting to find a reliable source for Habanos and all the trouble I go through getting them and the things that come with it are possibly worth it, but possibly not.

Just because a cigar is Cuban, does not mean it's great and just because it comes from a roller you enjoy, doesn't mean you will like the particular marca you are smoking based on factors I still haven't figured out. On the same note, just because a cigar is not from Cuba, does not mean it isn't phenomenal.

I also learned that before you go trampling on someone's thread claiming cigars are overrated, not worth the search, etc, be sure you know what you are talkin about or else you just might have a package on your doorstep from Rochester and spend the next week tossing and turning in bed and pecking away at a keyboard.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

floydpink said:


> I also learned that before you go trampling on someone's thread claiming cigars are overrated, not worth the search, etc, be sure you know what you are talkin about or else you just might have a package on your doorstep from Rochester and spend the next week tossing and turning in bed and pecking away at a keyboard.


haha! Well, hopefully it wasn't all pain and suffering... I tried to give you some nice cigars for the test too.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

gnukfu said:


> Wow!! Awesome thread. It was fun to follow along and quite the educational experience for me. Thanks Moki and PF!
> I take it from the link for the Don Carlos Senior Blend Robusto that you can't buy one of those since those are made for his personal use only unless he gives you one. I wonder what one of those would sell for.


That's correct, you cannot buy these cigars. However, some people think the regular Don Carlos line is pretty good too... give them a shot!


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

moki said:


> haha! Well, hopefully it wasn't all pain and suffering... I tried to give you some nice cigars for the test too.


Are you kiddin me? I can honestly say that it would probably have taken me many many years to get a chance to smoke some of those cigars, if ever.

I can only imagine what your humidor must look like.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

duhman said:


> I am absolutely awestruck by this experiment. Thank-you FloydPink & Moki for putting this on.
> One thing that bothers me now is, what am I to think about others' recommendations of this cigar or that as being supreme? I am going to have to try every one now! And different years! I'm going to have to build a room-ador.


Take cigar recommendations the same way you would food recommendations. You know in general what you usually like, and can filter other people's suggestions based on what you know you enjoy. If someone raves about a particular dish at a restaurant, maybe you try it even if it is outside of your normal range... but you don't think there's something wrong with _you_ if you don't enjoy it.

Do the same with cigars... recommendations still work, but they are just a guide, as personal taste is involved here... and bear in mind that many things affect the taste of a cigar other than the blend.

If you don't like a cigar that other people rave about, don't think there is something unrefined with your palate, just chalk it up to not being fond of a particular taste. There's no shame in it.

There are fabulous cigars from Cuba, and there are mediocre cigars from Cuba, and there are lousy cigars from Cuba. That's the case with cigars from just about anywhere (there are even some very good Mexican cigars!)... so enjoy yourself as you explore where various cigars fall for your particular tastes!


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

floydpink said:


> Are you kiddin me? I can honestly say that it would probably have taken me many many years to get a chance to smoke some of those cigars, if ever.
> 
> I can only imagine what your humidor must look like.


We'll do it again sometime... but this time with no pressure. The funny thing is, I bet if I put some of the same cigars in the blind taste test the next time we do it, your ratings with be slightly different.

It's just the way it goes... taste is a weird thing. I almost think of it as an emotion due to the variability involved. Certain things will generally tend to evoke certain emotions, but depending on other factors, their effect can be quite different. The same with the taste of things, such as cigars.

Imagine a cute puppy that's jumping on you... if you're spending a relaxing Saturday, you might think it's cute, smile, and take the puppy outside to play fetch or tug-a-war with it. However if you've dressed up in your finest suit, and are late for a job interview, the same cute puppy will cause you to get annoyed or angry when it jumps up on you.

Same deal with the taste of cigars, or anything for that matter... how you enjoy the taste of something can vary with the same cigar under different circumstances, the same way your emotional reaction can change based on different circumstances. It's not that taste is completely random, but rather that it's more of a fuzzy, circumstantial, general perceptive sense.

Thus I like to think as taste as one of the more emotional senses we have. Ultimately, the brain is the largest sensory organ in the body. Perhaps that explains why the same wine actually caused people more measurable pleasure when they thought it cost more money.

So it's actually possible that smoking a Cuban cigar, when you know it's Cuban, could really cause you more pleasure. But it's because you know what it is, not necessarily because of the taste. Weird stuff.


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## wayner123 (Mar 29, 2007)

moki said:


> Take cigar recommendations the same way you would food recommendations. You know in general what you usually like, and can filter other people's suggestions based on what you know you enjoy. If someone raves about a particular dish at a restaurant, maybe you try it even if it is outside of your normal range... but you don't think there's something wrong with _you_ if you don't enjoy it.
> 
> Do the same with cigars... recommendations still work, but they are just a guide, as personal taste is involved here... and bear in mind that many things affect the taste of a cigar other than the blend.
> 
> ...


Good advice Moki. I also liked reading the Blind test you are in right now. Looks like you are doing great!

What would think about another type of blind testing? I find that I personally like fresh CC's or NC's. I have never agreed with the thoughts of aging = better. I was relieved when Blueface posted what he did about Pepin's and Blueface's father's thoughts on the fresh vs aged. I know that "the best cigar is the one you enjoy right now" is true. I just have never come to the conclusion that an aged cigar is any better than a fresh one. While someone else may, would they do so in a blind test? I see in the test you are involved in that guessing the age is hard as well. Seems that an across the board statement like aged = better is not accurate for someone to say.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

wayner123 said:


> Good advice Moki. I also liked reading the Blind test you are in right now. Looks like you are doing great!
> 
> What would think about another type of blind testing? I find that I personally like fresh CC's or NC's. I have never agreed with the thoughts of aging = better. I was relieved when Blueface posted what he did about Pepin's and Blueface's father's thoughts on the fresh vs aged. I know that "the best cigar is the one you enjoy right now" is true. I just have never come to the conclusion that an aged cigar is any better than a fresh one. While someone else may, would they do so in a blind test? I see in the test you are involved in that guessing the age is hard as well. Seems that an across the board statement like aged = better is not accurate for someone to say.


Again, I think this is an area of personal taste. I do sometimes enjoy the taste of a fresh, spicy cigar. However I would in general say that age does make cigars taste better to me anyway.

I've picked up a box of cigars with the express purpose of testing this. I've smoked one cigar from the box every 6 months, and written down my notes on it. Every time I've done this, I've enjoyed the cigars more as they aged.

Certainly you could argue that because I know the cigars are older, my mind is making me think I'm enjoying them more. The only way around this would be a blind aged cigar taste test. 

Yet another fun thing to explore...


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## JCK (Nov 9, 2006)

most of the Pepin's that I smoke, I've enjoyed more after 6 months of resting, this is particularly true with the El Centurions.


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## wayner123 (Mar 29, 2007)

khubli said:


> most of the Pepin's that I smoke, I've enjoyed more after 6 months of resting, this is particularly true with the El Centurions.


Yeah, but is that because you knew that they were older?

I do admit there are RH factors invloved. And I would have to define fresh. I would define fresh as a cigar with 6 months or less age on it. And older as more than 1 year. There are factors involved when buying cigars from a B&M, as they most likely do not have the same setup you do and cigars take time to adjust. But after that inital adjustment, I find that fresh CC's taste better to me than Aged ones. just my opinon.

That would be a great blind test. An aged one. Particularly with a panel of ranging experiences.


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## cbsmokin (Oct 10, 2007)

moki said:


> Again, I think this is an area of personal taste. I do sometimes enjoy the taste of a fresh, spicy cigar. However I would in general say that age does make cigars taste better to me anyway.
> 
> I've picked up a box of cigars with the express purpose of testing this. I've smoked one cigar from the box every 6 months, and written down my notes on it. Every time I've done this, I've enjoyed the cigars more as they aged.
> 
> ...


I'm with you. Generally I tend to prefer sticks with some age on them, but it does seem to vary somewhat by brand. Pepin and Oliva G for example have some ammonia when fresh that goes away after some aging. Padron Anni's though seem to stay pretty much the same to me.

I don't have a refined pallet, just my humble observations.


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## ComicBookFreak (Sep 7, 2005)

moki said:


> Thus I like to think as taste as one of the more emotional senses we have. Ultimately, the brain is the largest sensory organ in the body. Perhaps that explains why the same wine actually caused people more measurable pleasure when they thought it cost more money.


This is kinda like what my father used to do. He would mark the prices on his items up a few dollars higher than his competitors. Sometimes even double what his competitors were charging. People would buy the exact same item from him paying more money because they thought paying more for it meant it was a "better" item. You would think marking it down would be the way to get more business, but Dad would mark things up a bit and would also every couple of months or so would move everything around in the store so it had a "new" look. And he always out sold the others.

CBF


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## JCK (Nov 9, 2006)

wayner123 said:


> Yeah, but is that because you knew that they were older?
> 
> I do admit there are RH factors invloved. And I would have to define fresh. I would define fresh as a cigar with 6 months or less age on it. And older as more than 1 year. There are factors involved when buying cigars from a B&M, as they most likely do not have the same setup you do and cigars take time to adjust. But after that inital adjustment, I find that fresh CC's taste better to me than Aged ones. just my opinon.
> 
> That would be a great blind test. An aged one. Particularly with a panel of ranging experiences.


These were El Centurions from the same shipment to a local B&M. I smoked one within a few days of the shop receiving the cigars. I bought a box that night and smoked one out of the box a month or so later. I smoked another recently and it had settled into a more complex cigar than the first two that I smoked. Granted these are only 4 months old since I've had them at this point, but these have gotten better in the time they've been sitting.

So I don't think it's a function of knowing it's aged. I've noticed this with the AVO LE-07s as well.


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## smokeyscotch (Apr 26, 2007)

I am just catching up on this thread. Therefore, if this has been asked, I apologize.
In terms of the Ramon Allones Estupendo RE 2006, could the flavor of this cigar been blown out by the Scotch? I have noticed with pairing Scotch it is hit or miss with me sometimes. It seems it has to be the right cigar for the drink. Whereas, I have been able to pair bourbon much easier. Keep inmind this is coming from a regular Scotch drinker. Just a theory.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

wayner123 said:


> Good advice Moki. I also liked reading the Blind test you are in right now. Looks like you are doing great!


Ah, but you didn't ask the most important question: Why am I doing well?


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## wayner123 (Mar 29, 2007)

moki said:


> Ah, but you didn't ask the most important question: Why am I doing well?


Visual examination and familiarity with the particular marca.


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## Zoomschwortz (Jul 14, 2006)

moki said:


> Ah, but you didn't ask the most important question: Why am I doing well?


Could it be that you smoked these in the past?

Thank you both for such a great thread.

Ken


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## JCK (Nov 9, 2006)

moki said:


> Ah, but you didn't ask the most important question: Why am I doing well?


It looks like visual inspection and 'rote memorization' are serving you well. :] Or you have a cheat sheet?

I'm impressed with the deductions you are making in that taste test. It does not surprise me to see you are fairing well based on my opinion that you enjoy cigars from so many different locations.


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## barbourjay (Aug 9, 2007)

love this thread guys. just wanted to thank both andrew and pete for this experiment. it's made me go back to my old line of thinking that i need to just smoke what i like all the time and that the price/rarity has nothing to do with my enjoyment. up until about 2 weeks ago there were a lot of cigars that i was passing over because of the habbit of only getting the "usuals". hopefully i'm done with that and this thread has driven me to think beyond those boundaries. anybody want some opus? just kidding :r


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## duhman (Dec 3, 2007)

moki said:


> Ah, but you didn't ask the most important question: Why am I doing well?


Trace isotope analysis?
Gas spectrometer?


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

wayner123 said:


> Visual examination and familiarity with the particular marca.


Bingo. Taste is only a component used in conjunction with empirical data such as wrapper type, vitola, and other clues.

If it were truly blind, and I was smoking them blindfolded, I would do far worse. As would anyone. My experience with wrapper's, vitolas, etc. is as important as me experience with various taste profiles.

So the accuracy is really an illusion to an extent, if you take it to mean that I can recognize them by taste.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

barbourjay said:


> love this thread guys. just wanted to thank both andrew and pete for this experiment. it's made me go back to my old line of thinking that i need to just smoke what i like all the time and that the price/rarity has nothing to do with my enjoyment. up until about 2 weeks ago there were a lot of cigars that i was passing over because of the habbit of only getting the "usuals". hopefully i'm done with that and this thread has driven me to think beyond those boundaries. anybody want some opus? just kidding :r


That's what it's all about... we're all enjoyed a luxury hobby, and part of the fun is exploration.


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

Since this is over, I had an afterthought.

Moki, I noticed in your profile that your favorite cigar is the 1964 Padron Maduro.

While it is certainly a fine cigar, or even a superb cigar, I found it interesting that someone with so many cigars at their disposal chose this cigar as his favorite.


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## rx2010 (Jan 4, 2007)

interesting indeed, but I think it's fair to say that favorite doesn't have to mean best ever


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

this is true, I just noticed, ironically, that mine was listed as a Chateau Fuente Maduro. I put that on before I started smoking Habanos, but still rank it very high and might not write it off just yet.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

floydpink said:


> Since this is over, I had an afterthought.
> 
> Moki, I noticed in your profile that your favorite cigar is the 1964 Padron Maduro.
> 
> While it is certainly a fine cigar, or even a superb cigar, I found it interesting that someone with so many cigars at their disposal chose this cigar as his favorite.


Honestly, it's just because I haven't updated it in 3-4 years. But it's as good of a choice as any.


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## relaxnsmoke (Mar 24, 2003)

Just read the whole thread, agreed, one of the best threads I've read in a long while. I guessed #9 right:

_#9 - Ashton VSG "Round" Robusto - (8.25/10) guessed non-Cuban, Nicaraguan - Correct! _

and thought for sure I was going to get #10 figuring it was a La Aurora 100 Anos Robusto, my Dominican profile was spot on!

This thread confirms something I've suspected (my wallet too) all along, domestic production has really ramped up on quality.

One thing for sure this thread makes a fellow start drooling for a cigar! Great job. :tu


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

relaxnsmoke said:


> and thought for sure I was going to get #10 figuring it was a La Aurora 100 Anos Robusto, my Dominican profile was spot on!


Well, in fairness, I don't think that the Don Carlos Senior Blend cigar is something you'd easily be able to pick out in terms of taste, or any mythical "Dominican profile"

I can find you a number of cigars from any country that won't taste anything like each other. The reason is simple: the soil and climate is only one small part of what results in the final taste of the tobacco. Other factors are the seed hybrid, how the tobacco is fertilized as it is grown, how it is harvested, cured, fermented, and blended.

Do Padrón 1964s taste anything at all like Tatuaje Tainos? Not to me... and they are both Nicaraguan puros.


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## MindRiot (Feb 26, 2007)

Nice thread, and Moki's test is now confirmed in more than 1 forum. Smoke what YOU like and don't make the hype gospel.


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## Dwharmsway (Jan 17, 2008)

I just read this entire thread, and it was absolutely great reading. You always hear how the cubans are the end all be all. Not necessarily a must do, but something I will look into.

Just spent a great two hours becoming more educated

I think the greatest thing learned though is this, If you like the a cigar whether it being $4 or more, smoke it, don't worry about your percieved image.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

Dwharmsway said:


> I just read this entire thread, and it was absolutely great reading. You always hear how the cubans are the end all be all. Not necessarily a must do, but something I will look into.
> 
> Just spent a great two hours becoming more educated
> 
> I think the greatest thing learned though is this, If you like the a cigar whether it being $4 or more, smoke it, don't worry about your percieved image.


That certainly is a good thing to learn, and you can apply it to anything...


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## jaycarla (Jun 10, 2007)

Great job to moki and floydpink. Was a great thread to follow. Look forward to seeing some others try it in the future.

Thanks guys!!!!


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## Dr. Stogie Fresh (Nov 18, 2005)

Good luck, you will need it. I played this same game with José Blanco of La Aurora cigars, last week while in the Dominican Republic. José set me up big time and gave me some tough tests. I came away bruised and bloody, though I have to admit it was fun doing the "research."

Though people can perform well on these types of tests, I am convinced that it is by chance, and not because there is any real relationship between country and flavor. The flavor of a cigar is related to how a seed type reacts with the growing conditions: the soil, the nutrients in the soil, the weather, etc. With so many seed types and even hybrids of those seed types, and with unpredictable weather patterns, and varying levels of nutrients in the soil, I doubt whether anyone could consistently guess country of origin based only on flavor.

Thank you Moki for setting up this challenge. It is a great way to really understand that it is nearly impossible to tell the country of origin simply by taste. And thank you Peter for agreeing to undertake this challenge. 

Doc


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

Dr. Stogie Fresh said:


> Good luck, you will need it. I played this same game with José Blanco of La Aurora cigars, last week while in the Dominican Republic. José set me up big time and gave me some tough tests. I came away bruised and bloody, though I have to admit it was fun doing the "research."
> 
> Though people can perform well on these types of tests, I am convinced that it is by chance, and not because there is any real relationship between country and flavor. The flavor of a cigar is related to how a seed type reacts with the growing conditions: the soil, the nutrients in the soil, the weather, etc. With so many seed types and even hybrids of those seed types, and with unpredictable weather patterns, and varying levels of nutrients in the soil, I doubt whether anyone could consistently guess country of origin based only on flavor.
> 
> Thank you Moki for setting up this challenge. It is a great way to really understand that it is nearly impossible to tell the country of origin simply by taste. And thank you Peter for agreeing to undertake this challenge


Moki's theorem. QED.


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## Munkey (Jan 14, 2008)

As I begin my slide down the slope, I will keep this thread in my mind. Fantastic reading. Great experiment. Kudos to both parties.


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