# Cigars and Cancer - The Real Numbers



## alexandermorgovsky (Nov 23, 2008)

Based on everything I have read on cigars and cancer, I am now perplexed about why the majority of our sociey looks at a cigar and thinks evil but the stats point out that cancers from cigars are rare in occurence. Does anyone have knowledge of real numbers, like: the chace for an average person getting throat cancer is .000001, and for a cigar smoker of 14 cigars per week being 4 times that to equal = .000004?

I am tired of non-sense propaganda, and really want to see the numbers here. Honestly, I love cigars too much, and only some threatening statistics will dissuade me from proceeding in what I have been doing for over 5 years.

All your help is appreciated.


----------



## Habanolover (Feb 22, 2006)

I'm sure the numbers are out there somewhere. I am just too lazy and not concerned enough to look for them.


----------



## hotreds (Dec 4, 2007)

_and only some threatening statistics will dissuade me from proceeding in what I have been doing for over 5 years._

Happily, there are none!


----------



## sirxlaughs (Nov 18, 2005)

alexandermorgovsky said:


> Based on everything I have read on cigars and cancer, I am now perplexed about why the majority of our sociey looks at a cigar and thinks evil but the stats point out that cancers from cigars are rare in occurence. Does anyone have knowledge of real numbers, like: the chace for an average person getting throat cancer is .000001, and for a cigar smoker of 14 cigars per week being 4 times that to equal = .000004?
> 
> I am tired of non-sense propaganda, and really want to see the numbers here. Honestly, I love cigars too much, and only some threatening statistics will dissuade me from proceeding in what I have been doing for over 5 years.
> 
> All your help is appreciated.


I don't think there are any thorough studies on cigars. Most of the stuff I've seen and read online go something like, "If you smoke 5 cigars/day for 20 years, you're chances of cancer increase." Silly, really.
Even if there is a study, they don't tell you how big the cigar is. There's a difference between smoking 2 petit coronas and 2 A-size cigars. They also don't tell you about the chemical composition of the tobacco. What's the carcinogen, and how much of it does it take to raise alarms? If the studies are out there, I'm still oblivious to them.
It's very similar to studies that try to connect cell phones to brain tumors. They almost never tell you which cell phones they tested, how much radiation they put out, how long the radiation levels are sustained, and so on and so forth.
The vaguer the study, the more likely the doc was just trying to get published.


----------



## KingSlender (Nov 17, 2008)

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/ped/content/ped_10_2x_cigar_smoking_and_cancer.asp



> Do Cigars Cause Cancer?
> 
> Cigar smoking increases the risk of death from several cancers, including cancer of the lung, oral cavity (lip, tongue, mouth, throat), esophagus (the tube connecting the mouth to the stomach), and larynx (voice box). Smoking more cigars each day or inhaling cigar smoke leads to more exposure and higher risks. For those who inhale, cigar smoking appears to be linked to cancer of the pancreas and bladder as well.
> 
> ...


I'm a pharamcist, so I take health issues very seriously. I'd say if you're less than a 1 a day smoker, you probably don't have much to worry about and any risk would be negligible.


----------



## Snake Hips (May 30, 2008)

sirxlaughs said:


> I don't think there are any thorough studies on cigars. Most of the stuff I've seen and read online go something like, "If you smoke 5 cigars/day for 20 years, you're chances of cancer increase." Silly, really.
> Even if there is a study, they don't tell you how big the cigar is. There's a difference between smoking 2 petit coronas and 2 A-size cigars. They also don't tell you about the chemical composition of the tobacco. What's the carcinogen, and how much of it does it take to raise alarms? If the studies are out there, I'm still oblivious to them.
> It's very similar to studies that try to connect cell phones to brain tumors. They almost never tell you which cell phones they tested, how much radiation they put out, how long the radiation levels are sustained, and so on and so forth.
> The vaguer the study, the more likely the doc was just trying to get published.


There was a thread here a while back on this very topic. Somebody posted a link that was fantastic, but I don't feel like digging for it. It was a site that presented every large study done on smoking and cancer and posted their conclusions, rated them on credibility based on a number of factors, and at the end presented the conclusion. It broke down the number of cancer cases in the years these studies were done by type of cancer into cigarette smokers, cigar smokers, pipe smokers and nonsmokers. It showed that very few cancer cases were cigar and pipe smokers and overwhelmingly weighted toward cigarette smokers. It concluded that if you smoke 2 cigars or less a day (depending on their size of course), the risk of any kind of cancer is minimal, though obviously raised compared to nonsmokers. It also showed that pipe smokers actually live longer than nonsmokers.

So stick that in your pipe and smoke it, health nuts.


----------



## taltos (Feb 28, 2006)

I don't have time to look for that post right now but do an advanced search under my screen name and you will find the thread with the link.


----------



## BigCat (Sep 9, 2008)

Snake Hips said:


> There was a thread here a while back on this very topic. Somebody posted a link that was fantastic, but I don't feel like digging for it. It was a site that presented every large study done on smoking and cancer and posted their conclusions, rated them on credibility based on a number of factors, and at the end presented the conclusion. It broke down the number of cancer cases in the years these studies were done by type of cancer into cigarette smokers, cigar smokers, pipe smokers and nonsmokers. It showed that very few cancer cases were cigar and pipe smokers and overwhelmingly weighted toward cigarette smokers. It concluded that if you smoke 2 cigars or less a day (depending on their size of course), the risk of any kind of cancer is minimal, though obviously raised compared to nonsmokers. It also showed that pipe smokers actually live longer than nonsmokers.
> 
> So stick that in your pipe and smoke it, health nuts.


I believe you are referring to this:

http://www.cigargroup.com/faq/health/


----------



## Cigar Man Andy (Aug 13, 2008)

If you are going to get cancer, it was pre-destined. My father died of cancer 30 years after he stopped smoking cigarettes. Aruturo Fuente Sr smoked 5-8 cigars a day until he was 85. 

I love cigars. If i get caner, I will deal with it, but I won't let fear run my life.


----------



## SmokeyTheKid (Aug 23, 2007)

Cigar Man Andy said:


> If you are going to get cancer, it was pre-destined.


Look, I'm willing to deal with the increased risks of smoking cigars. I believe they're small, but realize they're not zero either. To say that the choices you make in life don't matter is, in my opinion, a way of passing the buck. This statement is patently untrue. It's like saying, "If you're going to get heart disease, it was pre-destined" and using that to justify a sedentary life filled with poor eating choices.

Our actions _do_ have consequences. It's a matter of being aware of them and making informed choices.


----------



## raralith (Sep 26, 2008)

If you want to read the 248 report by the National Cancer Institute, http://cancercontrol.cancer.gov/tcrb/monographs/9/index.html. The PDF is available (and free!) for download.


----------



## mrreindeer (Sep 4, 2008)

Since I'm a relative noob to the cigar thing, I've been very curious about this as well, and admittedly nervous. I'm going to check out those two links you guys provided, thank you! It likely won't change my 1-or-2 sticks a week habit that I've started up but it certainly is good to be informed. :tu


----------



## Mark C (Sep 19, 2007)

Cigar Man Andy said:


> If you are going to get cancer, it was pre-destined. My father died of cancer 30 years after he stopped smoking cigarettes. Aruturo Fuente Sr smoked 5-8 cigars a day until he was 85.
> 
> I love cigars. If i get caner, I will deal with it, but I won't let fear run my life.


I wouldn't go so far as to say cancer is 'pre-destined' (that's a philosohical/theological debate for another forum), but the example you point out does have its merits.

While it's clearly true that smoking several cigars a day raises your risk of cancer, it's important to remember it's only a risk, not a guarantee. And it's usually reported with respect to the risk of a nonsmoker. In absolute terms the number is quite small, which explains why Fuente seemingly had better luck than your father.


----------



## Cigar Man Andy (Aug 13, 2008)

SmokeyTheKid said:


> Look, I'm willing to deal with the increased risks of smoking cigars. I believe they're small, but realize they're not zero either. To say that the choices you make in life don't matter is, in my opinion, a way of passing the buck. This statement is patently untrue. It's like saying, "If you're going to get heart disease, it was pre-destined" and using that to justify a sedentary life filled with poor eating choices.
> 
> Our actions _do_ have consequences. It's a matter of being aware of them and making informed choices.


I guess the point that I was making is that genetics and family history have a lot to do with it, but a few years ago, they said that the milk was causing cancer. We just never know. However I haven't had a cigarette in 20 years won't smoke cigarettes again. That's all.


----------



## Mark C (Sep 19, 2007)

raralith said:


> If you want to read the 248 report by the National Cancer Institute, http://cancercontrol.cancer.gov/tcrb/monographs/9/index.html. The PDF is available (and free!) for download.


Just make sure to read the info posted at the cigargroup link above immediately after reading that report. That report alone doesn't give the whole story.


----------



## Cyanide (Nov 12, 2008)

As a physician I am taking a calculated risk by having the occassional cigar.

You will be glad to know that I am currently researching and writing an article for these online forums addressing all your concerns from an evidenced-based perspective. It will be out before Christmas (hopefully).

A couple quick comments:

while genetics plays a role in a number of diseases/conditions attributed to smoking in general, don't be lulled into false optimism. Head and neck cancers, heart disease, lung cancer, COPD are LARGELY diseases of lifestyle. Your smoking habits will have a much greater affect on your CHANCE of being afflicted than your genetics will.

You always have to be careful with the term "they" in refering to research. Some of "them" are legit researchers and docs that really only want answers/truth; publishing anything else but the truth makes them look foolish in the long run. Some of "them" are scam artists/propogandists that are really just pushing an agenda. Milk causing cancer sounds like a PETA propoganda peice to me.

But, hold out...I probably won't present hard numbers as they don't typically mean much in real life (like 1/10,000 get throat cancer). I will present more of a practical format (like you double your chances of getting a RARE but nasty deadly cancer. In this case RARE X 2 = RARE).

Further information on rational monitoring and risk reduction behaviours will also be covered.

For those overly stressed at this moment here is a tidbit:

If you smoke less than 1 cigar a day, don't inhale, rinse your mouth out occassionally while smoking, don't swallow too much of the saliva, partake in some good oral hygiene, and ideally have never smoked cigarettes (or at least have quit smoking cigarettes), exercise regularly, lead an active life and eat responsibly....then you will probably reduce your risks accordingly:

the common conditions: risk reduced to that of your non-smoker friends
rare conditions: risk still elevated above the non-smokers, but risk still rare

Cheers

Cyanide


----------



## Mark C (Sep 19, 2007)

You sure do sound like a doc with that post!

But I think I'd be looking for a new doc if mine went by the name 'cyanide'...


----------



## linty (Sep 20, 2008)

wow i'm actually somebody at least put this out there, i've been smoking cigars for a few months now and i've been ok until maybe 2 weeks ago when after smoking my throat felt really weird, I got scared that something was wrong and haven't smoked a cigar since. My cigars just sit in my humidor and i open and paw through them.... I will say that cigar smoking has caused bulimia to my wallet, however.


----------



## ucla695 (Jun 27, 2006)

There are some great posts here! I feel better about the several cigars I enjoy each week.


----------



## macjoe53 (Jul 8, 2007)

Just remember. Cigar smoking killed George Burns. It just took until he was over 100 years old.

On average I smoke 1 or 2 cigars a week, don't inhale and generally don't leave the cigar in my mouth when I'm not actually taking a puff. When I told my doctor about my cigar "habit" a couple of years ago after a physical, he said, "Ok. Just remember to rinse after smoking and exercise a little more."


----------



## Cyanide (Nov 12, 2008)

macjoe53 said:


> Just remember. Cigar smoking killed George Burns. It just took until he was over 100 years old.


That being said, as he was God, he was supposed to live forever

Cheers

Cyanide

Oh and another thing I forgot to consider reducing your risk: don't drink alcohol while smoking a cigar....but that's just ridiculous. Seriously though, that increases your head and neck cancer risks


----------



## goalie204 (Nov 21, 2008)

Cyanide said:


> If you smoke less than 1 cigar a day, don't inhale, rinse your mouth out occassionally while smoking, don't swallow too much of the saliva, partake in some good oral hygiene


I thought I was weird that when I smoke a cigar i spit out saliva, because I don't want to swallow that stuff. Not sure if i'm one of few that does this, but i'd rather not swallow it. If i was smoking in public in a lounge of course i wouldn't, but this is in the privacy of my own home


----------



## goalie204 (Nov 21, 2008)

Cyanide said:


> That being said, as he was God, he was supposed to live forever
> 
> Cheers
> 
> ...


Why is that?

Personally I enjoy a cigar, and I enjoy a nice drink, but i'd rather have them separately. I know they are supposed to compliment each other, and maybe i'm making incorrect decisions, but i find that one takes away from the other. Mostly after i have a sip of a spirit, and a puff of my stick, I find I can't taste the fabulous cigar flavor as well as if i were just sipping water.


----------



## Snake Hips (May 30, 2008)

Cigar Man Andy said:


> If you are going to get cancer, it was pre-destined. My father died of cancer 30 years after he stopped smoking cigarettes. Aruturo Fuente Sr smoked 5-8 cigars a day until he was 85.
> 
> I love cigars. If i get caner, I will deal with it, but I won't let fear run my life.


It also takes lung cancer 20-30 years to develop. There's a statistical "shelf" in cancer numbers that shows this.

However, I do agree about the fear thing. I will risk a few years in the gnarled-and-diseased era of my life to make the preceding years more enjoyable, and cigars make my life very enjoyable.


----------



## Cyanide (Nov 12, 2008)

I do agree that living life in fear of all risks is not really living (thus I have an occassional stogie). But, knowing the risks, the rationale about the risks and the facts about the risks allows you to potentially diminish or abolish the risks possibly with only subtle changes.

I also agree, living life now, and accepting an early demise may be better than never living. However, with knowledge....maybe you can live and love life now and continue to do it just as long as if you had never taken any risks.

As for not swallowing the saliva....I think that is based largely on expert rational speculation as to the rather large (relatively speaking...still rare) risks to esophageal and lower throat cancers associated with cigar smoking. This appealed to me, as it was a rather simple change (that I was already doing out of spontaneous behaviour) so I have included it. So, its a low level of evidence. If you don't want to spit or rinse, then don't spit or rinse...it probably won't change things much for you.

As for the alcohol....it doesn't need to be necessarilly drinking and smoking concurrently. Lots of evidence shows that those individuals that smoke more AND drink more get much much more "head and neck" cancers than those that don't mix to any significant level. This typically is not an ADDITIVE effect but more of a MULTIPLYING effect (thus triple the risk and triple the risk equals 9X risk, not 6X risk).

Cheers

Cyanide


----------



## gillywalker (Oct 29, 2008)

Cyanide said:


> I do agree that living life in fear of all risks is not really living (thus I have an occassional stogie). But, knowing the risks, the rationale about the risks and the facts about the risks allows you to potentially diminish or abolish the risks possibly with only subtle changes.
> 
> Cyanide


What amount day/week/month are you referring to when you say "occassional"?


----------



## BADS197 (Sep 8, 2008)

I smoke on average, 1 or less per day so I'm not too worried about it.


----------



## SmokeyTheKid (Aug 23, 2007)

Cyanide said:


> If you smoke less than 1 cigar a day, don't inhale, rinse your mouth out occassionally while smoking, don't swallow too much of the saliva,


Hmm - I'm always drinking when I smoke, whether it's a Scotch or a diet Coke. I think I probably swallow a lot of saliva.

I do find myself spitting alot when I smoke as well. Is spitting encouraged?

*insert swallow vs. spit joke here*


----------



## Cigary (Oct 19, 2007)

SmokeyTheKid said:


> Look, I'm willing to deal with the increased risks of smoking cigars. I believe they're small, but realize they're not zero either. To say that the choices you make in life don't matter is, in my opinion, a way of passing the buck. This statement is patently untrue. It's like saying, "If you're going to get heart disease, it was pre-destined" and using that to justify a sedentary life filled with poor eating choices.
> 
> Our actions _do_ have consequences. It's a matter of being aware of them and making informed choices.


One word will do here quite nicely,,,Brilliance!

As far as the other posts on here regarding how much to smoke or not to smoke then you are just looking for a guarantee and you won't get one. You could be in a car wreck, you could break your neck getting out of the shower, you could die from just about anything. Why not concentrate on living the best you can and let destiny take care of the rest?


----------



## macjoe53 (Jul 8, 2007)

On a side note and not really to do a threadjacking, but.....

Isn't it interesting that of all of God's creations, the human is the only one constantly striving trying to thwart God's plans. Every living thing on this earth has a life cycle. It's born, it lives and then it dies to make room for the newly born. Only man believes that God's will is wrong and that he/she should live forever.

Those who truly believe in God should also believe that God has a plan for each of us and that when it is your time to leave this world, you do. 

I know the risks. My father died of ephysema when he was 73. He smoked cigarettes for as long as I can remember. His doctor told me though his disease had more to do with the hazardous chemicals he had been exposed to throughout his working life - he worked on barges and towboats for over 50 years and was exposed to all sorts of hazardous stuff when cleaning the inside of barges without protection. 

I have never smoked cigarettes and will continue to smoke my 1 or 2 cigars a month until God calls me.


----------



## Cyanide (Nov 12, 2008)

gillywalker said:


> What amount day/week/month are you referring to when you say "occassional"?


I try to have about one a week. That is quite low compared to alot of you here. However, that is the pattern I have naturally fallen into, before I started doing th research on this. So, my findings to this point quite serendipitously support my current behaviour. I don't even need to contemplate or further rationalize my behaviour, it already fits together with my plan to live to 120!!!

As a side note, I am also a fairly competative runner. Since starting cigar smoking I have not only been able to continue to improve my time trials (best measured time is 8min52sec for 1.5 miles) but I have actually improved them (best time was 9min18sec for 1.5 mile 6 weeks ago). I am not going to say that cigars improved my running, but they certainly didn't seem to harm it (at the rate I smoke them, anyhow). Had I noticed a decline in my performance, that would pose a much stronger incentive to change my smoking behaviour than the risks of future cancers would.

Cheers

Cyanide


----------



## mrreindeer (Sep 4, 2008)

Really excellent posts Cyanide, thank you; RG for you as I wait in anticipation of your findings. :tu:tu I definitely feel a little better about our vice!


----------



## Beatnikbandit (Apr 24, 2007)

Cancer Smancer LOL:2


----------



## Noxus (Nov 10, 2008)

I believe I have a unique take on this subject that I would like to share. After high school, I kind of bummed around for a few years. With not much direction in my life, I took a job as a grave digger for about a year and a half. Most of the time it was 2 or 3 people a day we would lay to rest, sometimes more, 6 days a week. If anyone is looking to start a recession proof business, there you go.
Most of the time, we would talk with the funeral director on how he wanted things to go and such. A lot of times they would tell us about the person we were laying to rest, like how old they were or what they passed away from. Let me tell you something that I learned on that job. It doesn't matter what we do in life, when it comes to death, when it's our time, it's most likely NOT going to be on our terms.
Anyone whose familiar with the Darwin awards knows what I'm talking about. Don't worry about death. Trust me, thats going to take care of it's self. If you should worry about anything. It should be whether or not you are having a good life. My new motto after that job was.
Die without any regrets.


----------



## mrreindeer (Sep 4, 2008)

What'd you say Noxus? I was busy putting together my lawnchair weather balloons....

Good post my man. :tu


----------



## themoneycollector (Apr 18, 2007)

I don't think any research would ever be able to answer how smoking really affects people down to a percentage. It's long term and the effects couldn't be isolated to just smoking. That's why we only get generalized statistics, such as smoking warnings.


----------



## Cyanide (Nov 12, 2008)

Well, your right; statistics only work on a population-basis. Its the rational "qualification" (as opposed to quantification) of those statistics that makes it useful to the individual.

In retrospect, when you are dead, there will be something that can be pegged as the primary reason for your death. And, to some extent, its within your power to make a choice on what grab-bag of conditions you want to have as candidates to win the prize of "what killed me". Of course, some conditions are generally more eager to kill you than others.

If I had to choose between these two fictional grab-bags:

A:
1)testicular cancer
2)motor vehicle collision
3)heart attack

B:
1)old age
2)pneumonia
3)stroke

I would easily choose group B. That's largely because I know group A likes to kill young people, and group B doesn't mind just picking off the old people.

Thus, I wear a seatbelt, check "the boys" in the shower occasionally and run 5 miles a day...all things I enjoy or at least don't mind doing. I don't take an aspirin a day, don't wear a respiratory mask or worry about anti-aging cream.

Of course, that would be if I could choose between the two bags with all other things being equal. In life, not all things are equal. So, now I have to choose my bag-of-death based on a cost-and-benefits approach. Do I gather so much joy from cigars that I am willing to risk a shorter life for that enjoyment. Maybe those lost years were going to be great years...maybe not so great years. Maybe my kids would need me/miss me during those years. Its all a judgement call. If I gave up cigars would that open the door to activities I would enjoy even more (maybe some type of extreme sports that I become the best in world at), maybe. Its all speculation.

The best you can do is arm yourself with the most thruthful, unbiased, non-agenda information that you can get, ensure you are interpretting it correctly and then make your decision. Once that decision is made, stick to it unless something comes along that legitimately challenges the premises you made the decision on. Otherwise, stick with your decision.

And that....my friend....is inner peace.

Cheers

Cyanide


----------



## Noxus (Nov 10, 2008)

mrreindeer said:


> What'd you say Noxus? I was busy putting together my lawnchair weather balloons....
> 
> Good post my man. :tu


If only there were enough balloons to get my fat ass off the ground.


----------



## alexandermorgovsky (Nov 23, 2008)

What do you recommend to rinse with? Regular mouth wash or something special?


----------



## Cyanide (Nov 12, 2008)

If the rinsing question is directed at me, I would say simple tap water. I can't think of any plausible means by which a mouthwash would improve chances against any of the condition associated with smoking. If anything, the general noxiousness of mouthwashes (taste bad, sting, or at least taste strong) will probably inhibit your chances of getting the rinse far back in your mouth/throat before you start instinctively "defending your airway".

Cheers

Cyanide


----------



## gillywalker (Oct 29, 2008)

Cyanide said:


> Of course, that would be if I could choose between the two bags with all other things being equal. In life, not all things are equal. So, now I have to choose my bag-of-death based on a cost-and-benefits approach. Do I gather so much joy from cigars that I am willing to risk a shorter life for that enjoyment. Maybe those lost years were going to be great years...maybe not so great years. Maybe my kids would need me/miss me during those years. Its all a judgement call. If I gave up cigars would that open the door to activities I would enjoy even more (maybe some type of extreme sports that I become the best in world at), maybe. Its all speculation.


I don't want to get into an argument with a doctor but I would like to add something to all this. First I'd like to say I think it's great you are trying to balance off your cancer causing habit by running and leading a healthy life. In fact all the reports I hear on the news about how many American's that are overweight really frightens me. People should do more physical activities.

My dad was an occasional pipe and cigar smoker. he was also a marathon runner and I remember him running the Chicago Marathon a few times when I was a kid. When he was 53 he complained of back pains one day he couldn't move his legs and it turned out he had a form of cancer called Multiple Myeloma which usually only effects seniors. He died 11 months after being diagnosed. He led a healthy life and he ended up getting some rare form of cancer.


----------



## goalie204 (Nov 21, 2008)

I smoked weed for 11 years, and cigarettes for 5. They were both EXTREMELY addictive. I quit cigarettes because i didn't like the way they made my clothes smell, I didn't like being a slave to something so nasty..with so many chemicals. 

Weed was another story. I know there are many people who can smoke occasionally and be fine with it, but I'm a compulsive person and my habit got out of hand to the point where i was getting high 24/7 and unable to function as a normal part of society. Some people smoke everyday and CAN function normally, and that is their prerogative, and good for them or whatever, but neither weed or cigarettes worked for me. 

Cigars however, are another story, they're relaxing and enjoyable, and the craving is more mental (In my opinion) than the physical addiction of other substances. They don't prevent you from performing your day to day obligations, and they don't leave you going crazy for more. (not to the degree of other things) anyway. A Cigar is a pleasure. The point is, like several people have said in this thread, life is short, and I'm going to enjoy it.


----------



## Cyanide (Nov 12, 2008)

gillywalker said:


> I don't want to get into an argument with a doctor but I would like to add something to all this. First I'd like to say I think it's great you are trying to balance off your cancer causing habit by running and leading a healthy life. In fact all the reports I hear on the news about how many American's that are overweight really frightens me. People should do more physical activities.
> 
> My dad was an occasional pipe and cigar smoker. he was also a marathon runner and I remember him running the Chicago Marathon a few times when I was a kid. When he was 53 he complained of back pains one day he couldn't move his legs and it turned out he had a form of cancer called Multiple Myeloma which usually only effects seniors. He died 11 months after being diagnosed. He led a healthy life and he ended up getting some rare form of cancer.


I do feel for you loss (my Dad passed quite prematurely as well). And in that story, it would be hard to say that cigar smoke did not have some contributing factor. But, I bet who-ever made the diagnosis at some point thought in their heads something like "Wow, I didn't see that coming".

<I was going to write a long peice here on what boiled down to "luck of the draw", but I erased it because it clearly showed me "not seeing the forest for the trees".>

What it really simplifies to is in a large population (6 billion people) it can be 100% guaranteed that some people will be victims of the the most rare conditions. To those people, and those around them this rare entity becomes common, as it is seen every day for the length of the illness. At that point, becoming "common", the condition becomes an apparently reasonable candidate for future avoidance behaviours.

I hope you and your family didn't experience the isolation that commonly comes with coping with rare conditions no one else has heard about.

Bringing this back to the immediate intent of this thread, I will say "someone(s) here on this forum will die because of their cigar smoking". These events will be classified as:
a) risks were high and the disease was predictable, or
b) risks were low and "no one saw it coming"

By statistical law alone the number of cases of a) will be larger than the number of cases of b). People in A should consider avoiding the predictable, based on cost-and-benefit analysis. People in B probably won't get much real benefit from adopting avoidance behaviours.

In a last statement, I think I would want to say that no-one should bare the guilt of cases of b). I wouldn't have predicted multiple myeloma for your dad; I doubt even a hematologist (who gets a distilled/concentrated view of the world, as all their patients have blood cancers) would have readilly predicted MM. No reasonable vigilence would probably have avoided that tragedy. And we lose a portion of our psychological freedom when we start following unreasonable vigilence.

Hope this comes across as balanced and respectable. That is how it is meant to be received.

Cheers

Cyanide


----------



## gillywalker (Oct 29, 2008)

Cyanide said:


> I do feel for you loss (my Dad passed quite prematurely as well). And in that story, it would be hard to say that cigar smoke did not have some contributing factor. But, I bet who-ever made the diagnosis at some point thought in their heads something like "Wow, I didn't see that coming".
> 
> <I was going to write a long peice here on what boiled down to "luck of the draw", but I erased it because it clearly showed me "not seeing the forest for the trees".>
> 
> ...


NO offense taken. I'm not much of a smoker. Just the past month I've taken up pipe smoking I've been doing it on a 1 bowl every other day basis and I already feel like I should cut it down to 2 or 1 a week. Before that it was probably 10 cigars a year.

However, I enjoy it and I believe the original Surgeon General report in 1964 showed that pipe smokers lived longer than non smokers. I wouldn't be surprised if that's because they lead more of a stress less life style.

Cyanide, you were talking about how cigar smoking may have in some way effected my father, you're right, but I often wonder if the stress of running a business had any effect on him? Maybe smoking more than 3 times a week would mellowed him out a bit and he would died later.


----------



## Vancehu (Nov 23, 2008)

I'm a believer in the stats for cig smokers. The chemicals in the cigs just can't be good.

Smoking a cigar in door without proper ventilation may also cause harm, but I doubt the effect is greater than the cigs.

Do you guys know if a person is hit by a car and dies, if they find a pack of cigarette in his pocket, this person will be categorized as part of tobacco related death?


----------



## Cyanide (Nov 12, 2008)

Vancehu said:


> I'm a believer in the stats for cig smokers. The chemicals in the cigs just can't be good.
> 
> Smoking a cigar in door without proper ventilation may also cause harm, but I doubt the effect is greater than the cigs.
> 
> Do you guys know if a person is hit by a car and dies, if they find a pack of cigarette in his pocket, this person will be categorized as part of tobacco related death?


That is actually a form of malpractice, at least in my country. Knowingly and wrongfully identifying the cause of death on the death certificate is going to get you in front of a review board, fighting to keep your license. At least in my country it is the individual "medical examiners" that fill out the death certificate in out-of-hospital deaths or deaths requiring further investigation. Otherwise, for "in hospital" deaths it is the attending physician. One way or another it is a physician who ultimately plays by the same rules as the rest of us ("first, do no harm", "practice beyond reproach"), or pays the consequences.

Cheers

Cyanide


----------

