# Todays Real or Fake brought to you by...Bolivar



## garilla (Sep 12, 2006)

OK fellow Silverbacks. Time to play real or fake again. Pictures are below, but let's go over the facts and some context:

1. Seal _appears _to be authentic, as the microprint is intact, and when viewed under blacklight, the image appears (although more yellowish rather than any other tint I've heard of/read about).

2. Box does have the hologram on top(questionable, but does anyone know for a FACT the purpose of the hologram? For consumption/sale to specific country? For/not for export? Definately 100% fake?

3. Box does appear to have the infamous round stamp in black. Again, same question as above, as I cannot find FACTS as to the purpose of this stamp.

4. Context of stamp numerics. Bottom of box does appear to have multiple date codes/stamps, one in black, the other in blue. VERY odd part is the serial number assigned to THIS box is but ONE NUMBER lower than another box of Cohiba Robustos? (both boxes part of same sale) Is this possibly due to the fact that both boxes were possibly inspected a second time at the same time, and thus sequential seal serial numbers? As of right now, I cannot visibly see that there are multiple seals on the box, that may denote a second inspection.

I apologize for the external "cello" around the box, would prefer to leave it intact (at least for now).

If we pass this test at this point, the cello comes off, and perhaps more pics.

- Garilla


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## Funnymantrip (Oct 28, 2004)

I'll take a stab at it. 

First, if you trust where they came from, that goes a long way. 

To answer your big question on the stickers. 

From what I have gathered, stickers are sent out to the factories in bulk, not for each brand of cigar. That should not worry you. 

With that said, if your Bolis and Cohibas have the same factory code, then it is possible that they could be one number off. Mind you the date code would have to be the same as well. Not March/October or you might have a problem. 

From what I can tell from my own leftover boxes though the date codes are a few months off, the factory codes are the same.

The holo if I am correct is for boxes to be sold on the island.


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## RobinCoppell (Apr 7, 2007)

More detailed pics would be a big help. The box code looks wrong but I can't tell.


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## garilla (Sep 12, 2006)

My apologies, the blue stamped box code states EDC UTCC, while the lower box code in black is stamped EGD - FEB 07

The "infamous" round seal (infamous until proven NOT necessarily fake), states:

VENDIDO EN CUBA (along top)

TIENDAS INTUR (center)

COMINTUR (bottom)


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## inept (Jun 22, 2006)

The two most recent boxes I've brought back have had the transparent holograms. My understanding is that boxes purchased in Cuba through official channels should have the holograms.


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## DaveC (Sep 4, 2003)

fake


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## kdhoffma (May 22, 2007)

garilla said:


> My apologies, the blue stamped box code states EDC UTCC, while the lower box code in black is stamped EGD - FEB 07
> 
> The "infamous" round seal (infamous until proven NOT necessarily fake), states:
> 
> ...


A lot of people wiser than me have said that this stamp automatically means fake. They could be wrong, but I'm not personally going to chance it.


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## Kayak_Rat (Nov 28, 2005)

If you have to question your source, should you be ordering from them?

Getting to know a knowledgeable FOG would ellimenate this whole problem and we wouldnt have to have fake/authentic threads every day.


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## No1der (Apr 2, 2007)

This is a question for more informed minds than mine.

I think the main question I have is, did you pay roughly what Boli's cost? 

This bit of wisdom doesn't solve anything but personally if something looks to good to be true it probably is.

In any case, that's all I know how to contribute to this thread.


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## adsantos13 (Oct 10, 2006)

kdhoffma said:


> A lot of people wiser than me have said that this stamp automatically means fake. They could be wrong, but I'm not personally going to chance it.


100% Agreed.

I am not a FOG either but I wouldn't buy anything with stamps alleging it was sold in Cuba. Yes, maybe it is indeed not fake, but why risk it. IMHO, when you see this stamp you are not getting good odds.


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## kdhoffma (May 22, 2007)

Didn't you say yesterday that these were coming from a friend at an unbelievable price?


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## Blaylock-cl (Apr 28, 2006)

Kayak_Rat said:


> If you have to question your source, should you be ordering from them?
> 
> Getting to know a knowledgeable FOG would ellimenate this whole problem and we wouldnt have to have fake/authentic threads every day.


:tpd: Know your source and you wouldn't have to worry about this.

I'm also curious why you aren't taking off the wrapping, opening up the box and trying one of these? IMO, smoking one would be the best way to find out what you've got. If they taste like "the real deal", then you have no worries. If they don't taste right to you, then send them back, if you have that option, or chalk it up to a lesson learned, and get yourself a source that you can trust.


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## Blueface (May 28, 2005)

Before everyone jumps to conclusions, need some more information.
A good investigator always gathers the facts, then draws a conclusion.

You have not provided the following:
Did you pay a fair going price or a ridiculous good deal of a price?
Did it come from a vendor most know of or did it come from a friend?
If it came from a friend, was it a friend of a friend who knows a friend or was it a reputable, reliable friend?
Did that person purchase this box in person from a government store, in Cuba? Only way it can that hologram.
Did this person travel through Canada? Most Canadians go to Cuba and bring back boxes, that were purchased the the government store that have the hologram.
Did the friend use Saran wrap for you for caution? Never packed that way.

If any of the above can be clarified, we can pass judgment.
If you don't know any of the above, then one can assume they may very well not be legit.

Need better photos but one thing stands out to me.
Boli fans, have you ever seen such wonderful detail on the outside of the box, on that gold part? As bad as the photo is, I could swear I could see unbelievable detail. Never, ever are they so detailed and I have quite a few boxes from scattered years to compare to.


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## Blueface (May 28, 2005)

garilla said:


> 1. Seal _appears _to be authentic, as the microprint is intact, and when viewed under blacklight, the image appears (although more yellowish rather than any other tint I've heard of/read about).
> *Comparing to a valid one may show you that it is not as good as you think. The printing being off cannot be determined by that one alone.*
> 
> 2. Box does have the hologram on top(questionable, but does anyone know for a FACT the purpose of the hologram? For consumption/sale to specific country? For/not for export? Definately 100% fake?
> ...


See in bold.
You knew what you were getting.


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## mels95yj (Jun 4, 2005)

I'm so glad I don't have to worry about this. As Blake, and others have said, know your sources.

Mel


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## bonggoy (Mar 9, 2006)

A couple of fog already said their fake, no need to elaborate further


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## Kayak_Rat (Nov 28, 2005)

Like I said, if you dont have a clue what you are doing, why do it? Spend some time around the site and READ what is said by the experienced members.


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## dayplanner (Dec 11, 1997)

Kayak_Rat said:


> Like I said, if you dont have a clue what you are doing, why do it? Spend some time around the site and READ what is said by the experienced members.


:tpd: Fakes.


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## Big T (Dec 8, 2006)

Hope I'm not hijacking this thread, but I was recently in an LCDH in Mexico and I noticed that all the boxes had the hologram. The proprietor insisted that it was supposed to be there. This leads me to one of two conclusions:

1. This LCDH was selling fakes (I would find this to be pretty troubling)
2. The hologram applies to boxes sold on the island AND to those distributed to LCDH's....

Any thoughts??


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## garilla (Sep 12, 2006)

All,

Thanks to all for posting information on this. I humbly bow to the gorillas for confirming my suspicions. One of the primary reasons I chose to even post this was to confirm and show a level of detail that counterfeiting is heading towards. Ridge detail of the logo/design on the box top, microprinted and watermarked seal with the proper combination of letters and numbers, semi-real date codes, holograms, etc. The round stamp still baffles me as to why even bother...

At any rate, one thing is for certain. _If you choose to play, know your source_.

One other thing that bothers me. With all of this going on globally, why don't the REAL vendors/manufacturers simply make available information and pictures on how to spot THEIR OWN REAL MERCHANDISE??

Thanks again.

- Garilla


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## mels95yj (Jun 4, 2005)

garilla said:


> With all of this going on globally, why don't the REAL vendors/manufacturers simply make available information and pictures on how to spot THEIR OWN REAL MERCHANDISE??


Wouldn't this be telling all the counterfeiters exactly how to counterfeit? For instance, if Cuba came out and said, "We secretly put an X in the upper left corner on the inside of each box", then all the fake boxes would soon have this.

I'm glad you're taking it so well. Live and learn.

Mel


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## Xmodius (Jun 21, 2005)

garilla said:


> 2. Box does have the *hologram* on top(questionable, but does anyone know for a FACT the purpose of the hologram? For consumption/sale to specific country? For/not for export? Definately 100% fake?
> 
> - Garilla


The hologram is put on boxes sold IN CUBA, not for export. You can buy the holograms on the street as well as all the bands, boxes, stickers and other bells and whistles.

Unless you bought the boxes in Cuba yourself and brought them home, they are fake.

From the net: "Note: Only Cuban Cigars sold at authorized Government stores in Cuba will bear the new hologram. Boxes for export for retailers world wide from Habanos S.A. WILL NEVER BEAR THIS HOLOGRAM."

Take all my words with a grain of salt, for I know they bitter at this point.

Good luck!

P.S. A couple of years ago there was a vendor somewhere in Central America selling these 'great prices' cigars with beautiful boxes, seals, holograms etc. I can't find the reference now, but I am looking.


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## Xmodius (Jun 21, 2005)

garilla said:


> All,
> 
> Thanks to all for posting information on this. I humbly bow to the gorillas for confirming my suspicions. One of the primary reasons I chose to even post this was to confirm and show a level of detail that counterfeiting is heading towards. Ridge detail of the logo/design on the box top, microprinted and watermarked seal with the proper combination of letters and numbers, semi-real date codes, holograms, etc. The round stamp still baffles me as to why even bother...
> 
> ...


Sorry, this is nothing new. You want a box of PSDfaux? It's full and has beautiful seals and a hologram. I'll probably smoke the cigars some day. They might even be Cuban. But as a box of official 'Habanos' they are counterfeit.


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## Xmodius (Jun 21, 2005)

garilla said:


> One other thing that bothers me. With all of this going on globally, why don't the REAL vendors/manufacturers simply make available information and pictures on how to spot THEIR OWN REAL MERCHANDISE??
> 
> Thanks again.
> 
> - Garilla


Since you can buy real boxes, bands, stickers, seals, holograms and make them look just as good as factory boxes I'm not sure this would help.


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## Sir Winston (Sep 29, 2006)

I really don't understand posts like this. Hmm...these could be fakes, I'm not really sure. I don't really trust my source, let me buy them anyways then post them on an internet forum so some other people can tell me that they are fake or not. Oh well, to each his own I guess.


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## Da Klugs (Jan 8, 2005)

garilla said:


> All,
> 
> Thanks to all for posting information on this. I humbly bow to the gorillas for confirming my suspicions. One of the primary reasons I chose to even post this was to confirm and show a level of detail that counterfeiting is heading towards. Ridge detail of the logo/design on the box top, microprinted and watermarked seal with the proper combination of letters and numbers, semi-real date codes, holograms, etc. The round stamp still baffles me as to why even bother...
> 
> ...


The real issue is origin. You never stated it but most of us (OK me) would assume you got these from an individual. Fakes are very rare from "Vendors" who have a reputation to protect and in the rare instance stand behind a refund policy if there is a problem.

Personally, the angled blue date stamp = Fake in my experience. Round black stamp = Fake. Hologram = Fake in most instances. The combination is like a wagon on fire rolling through a gasoline refinery.

Regarding packaging, seals, etc.. these are readily available from websites, which is a shame.

It seems so simple but in practice difficult for those starting out... who you buy from is 99.9% of the issue. Many posts like this do not get alot of feedback from the older members as they know where it will end up...

Got these from a friend who knows someone who's brother.... you now know how the story goes from there.

Sorry for your loss.


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## Xmodius (Jun 21, 2005)

Da Klugs said:


> The real issue is origin. You never stated it but most of us (OK me) would assume you got these from an individual. Fakes are very rare from "Vendors" who have a reputation to protect and in the rare instance stand behind a refund policy if there is a problem.
> 
> Personally, the angled blue date stamp = Fake in my experience. Round black stamp = Fake. Hologram = Fake in most instances. The combination is like a wagon on fire rolling through a gasoline refinery.
> 
> ...


Dave, great post.

Reading it reminded me of this:

*Think of CC's as if they were gold coins. They have an intrinsic/market value.*

You don't get 'cheap' Cubans unless someone GIVES them to you free.

Individuals who have real ones either give/trade them or hoard them. They don't sell them (for the most part and then for a fair/market price).

The only ones who sell real ones are reputable vendors.

The only people who sell cheap ones are scammers, or well-meaning FOOLS who got them cheap/fake somewhere else.

If you somehow buy cheap ones that are real, it's just as if someone cut you a break on a gold coin. NO ONE is going to sell me a gold coin for below market value. It JUST DOESN'T HAPPEN.

Sorry, I ramble.

John


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## croatan (Mar 23, 2005)

Xmodius said:


> I don't have a solution--don't know if there is one. Hell, I don't even know if it's really a problem. Just seems to me to be a little rant-worthy, as well
> 
> Sorry, I ramble.
> 
> John


Not a ramble at all. Just a darn good post, John, and a great way to think about Cuban cigars.

-----

One of the great things about Club Stogie is that there are sufficient resources available to you here that, if you are patient and take the requisite amount of time and effort to learn, the chances of you buying counterfeit cigars can be reduced to nearly nil.


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## seagarsmoker (Jan 1, 2000)

Da Klugs said:


> The real issue is origin. You never stated it but most of us (OK me) would assume you got these from an individual. Fakes are very rare from "Vendors" who have a reputation to protect and in the rare instance stand behind a refund policy if there is a problem.
> 
> Personally, the angled blue date stamp = Fake in my experience. Round black stamp = Fake. Hologram = Fake in most instances. The combination is like a wagon on fire rolling through a gasoline refinery.
> 
> ...


Agree 100% Dave.


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## Funnymantrip (Oct 28, 2004)

In the long run sometimes people just don't learn or they don't want to. I saw some people do a box split on Monte 2's. The box were all different colors and sizes. The band was the wrong color brown, the typeface was off. Even the logo was badly done. looked like an ear of corn and the swoops were in the wrong direction. When I was asked what I thought and told them what looked wrong, all of a sudden I was the bad guy b/c these came from a 'guy' who goes down there to get his cigars. Oh and the box was half price too.


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## Da Klugs (Jan 8, 2005)

Funnymantrip said:


> In the long run sometimes people just don't learn or they don't want to. I saw some people do a box split on Monte 2's. The box were all different colors and sizes. The band was the wrong color brown, the typeface was off. Even the logo was badly done. looked like an ear of corn and the swoops were in the wrong direction. When I was asked what I thought and told them what looked wrong, all of a sudden I was the bad guy b/c these came from a 'guy' who goes down there to get his cigars. * Oh and the box was half price too*.


Tis the real issue. 100% of the time when the price seems to good to be true.... well the cigars are not true. Again, seems simple but it trips up the uniformed/ newer folks over and over.

Best advice anyone can give on this subject has been given many many times here....

Be patient.
Don't be a victim.. scammers can PM you here.
The retailer forum and banner ads might be of use to someone who is inclined to do a bit of research.


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## Xmodius (Jun 21, 2005)

Another point, I guess I kind of made it already, but....

This kind of happening isn't always sinister, premeditated or malevolent.

There are a LOT OF FOOLS who sell FAKES, while believing themselves that the fakes they are selling are REAL....ABSOLUTELY.

So, beware of SCAMMERS as well as FOOLS.

Sometimes it's hard to tell them apart!:ss


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## Boston_Dude05 (Oct 10, 2006)

The plastic wrap over the box is unusual no?


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## Blueface (May 28, 2005)

Boston_Dude05 said:


> The plastic wrap over the box is unusual no?


:r
Specially the "Saran" variety.


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## Teninx (Apr 23, 2006)

There will probably be more fake Habanos sold in the USA _after_ the embargo ends than there is now, while it is in effect. All that pent-up demand from casual smokers who just want to try a Cuban cigar but have never seen one...and no more fear of buying in defiance of law....


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## seagarsmoker (Jan 1, 2000)

Blueface said:


> :r
> Specially the "Saran" variety.


Many businesses ship cigars this way. It helps to keep the humidity in the box since it will be out of a humidifier for a week or so.


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## garilla (Sep 12, 2006)

> One of the great things about Club Stogie is that there are sufficient resources available to you here that, if you are patient and take the requisite amount of time and effort to learn, the chances of you buying counterfeit cigars can be reduced to nearly nil.


This is probably the best statement on this matter, and is one of the primary reasons I posted this in the first place. Education. It's frustrating to think that if the embargo were lifted tomorrow, chances are the only real way to obtain the genuine article is to spend the airfare and get 'em yourself, since the thought of the market being flooded even more with fakes (could it get much worse?) is likely.

As I stated before, I humbly thank all those who posted feedback and comments on the matter, and I suppose the best information I can provide is I was not forced into any financial loss over the matter, thanks to a _good _friend.

Wooderson said it best, "Patience darlin', patience..."

I'll sit back and stew on this a bit, and count the ways a$$hats such as those running sites like http://www.justfakes.com can be given their just rewards.

Smoke 'em if you got 'em, for I _don't_. :ss


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## Blueface (May 28, 2005)

seagarsmoker said:


> Many businesses ship cigars this way. It helps to keep the humidity in the box since it will be out of a humidifier for a week or so.


:r
Take a look at the photo again.
You couldn't keep anything in or out with that wrap.
It is useless.
The one used by most vendors that I have hhad experience with is a heat shrink wrap.
Looks nothing like this.


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## Gargamel (Nov 8, 2004)

Big T said:


> Hope I'm not hijacking this thread, but I was recently in an LCDH in Mexico and I noticed that all the boxes had the hologram. The proprietor insisted that it was supposed to be there. This leads me to one of two conclusions:
> 
> 1. This LCDH was selling fakes (I would find this to be pretty troubling)
> 2. The hologram applies to boxes sold on the island AND to those distributed to LCDH's....
> ...


I have never seen a box from LCDH with the hologram. As far as everything else goes in this thread, those sticks are fake. The old "smoke them and find out" isn't going to apply here. Way too many red flags. The writing is on the wall. It like looking at a $100 Bill the wrong president on it and wondering if it's legit.


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## Blueface (May 28, 2005)

Gargamel said:


> It like looking at a $100 Bill the wrong president on it and wondering if it's legit.


:r
Gotta remember to use that one.


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## Boston_Dude05 (Oct 10, 2006)

Blueface said:


> :r
> Take a look at the photo again.
> You couldn't keep anything in or out with that wrap.
> It is useless.
> ...


:tpd: Saran wrap and vacuum sealed are different.


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## seagarsmoker (Jan 1, 2000)

Blueface said:


> :r
> Take a look at the photo again.
> You couldn't keep anything in or out with that wrap.
> It is useless.
> ...


Glad you find it funny. I know of several legit long time businesses in Europe who simply put 'saran' wrap around the box and it does the trick for a week or so in transit.


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## Blueface (May 28, 2005)

seagarsmoker said:


> Glad you find it funny. I know of several legit long time businesses in Europe who simply put 'saran' wrap around the box and it does the trick for a week or so in transit.


Hey, humor helps me live longer.
It was truly funny to me as it was wrapped so poorly and so cheaply that I would be embarrassed as a vendor to send something like that out.
Furthermore, by reading this thread fully, one can clearly establish this did not come from a vendor but rather a "friend".
No insult intended at all so please don't be offended.

However, you may be correct and don't dispute that BUT........I don't know of any vendor that ships to the US in that manner with Saran wrap and have had experiences with many. If there is, I sit corrected. I do believe this box subject of this thread was shipped to the US.

Just something unheard of in my world.


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## dayplanner (Dec 11, 1997)

Gargamel said:


> I have never seen a box from LCDH with the hologram.


I have


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## Stonato~ (Dec 22, 2006)

Blake Lockhart said:


> :tpd: Know your source and you wouldn't have to worry about this.
> 
> I'm also curious why you aren't taking off the wrapping, opening up the box and trying one of these? IMO, smoking one would be the best way to find out what you've got. If they taste like "the real deal", then you have no worries. If they don't taste right to you, then send them back, if you have that option, or chalk it up to a lesson learned, and get yourself a source that you can trust.


:tpd:

Also, (and I know this horse is way past dead) I have yet to open up and smell a box of genuine cubans that didn't make me drool. Unless by dumb luck I just haven't yet smelled a box of REALLY good fakes, this is the simplest test for me. I've smelled fakes and they just have that flat leatherish odor. :2


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## pinoyman (Jan 28, 2005)

carbonbased_al said:


> I have


*Me too.*


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## xibbumbero (Feb 20, 2006)

The round Vendido en Cuba stamp says it all= FAKE. There's also another rectangular Vendido en Cuba stamp on FAKEs as well. X


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## TheDirector (Nov 22, 2006)

Big T said:


> Hope I'm not hijacking this thread, but I was recently in an LCDH in Mexico and I noticed that all the boxes had the hologram. The proprietor insisted that it was supposed to be there. This leads me to one of two conclusions:
> 
> 1. This LCDH was selling fakes (I would find this to be pretty troubling)
> 2. The hologram applies to boxes sold on the island AND to those distributed to LCDH's....
> ...


I would like to know more about this because I think it is possible... & I don't believe LCDH sells fakes.


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## Sir Winston (Sep 29, 2006)

TheDirector said:


> I would like to know more about this because I think it is possible... & I don't believe LCDH sells fakes.


I think anything is possible. Remember that LCDH are not owned by Habanos, but by independent operators that franchise the name. I don't think it is likely anymore but it could happen i guess, especially in Mexico.


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## rainman (Apr 13, 2007)

TheDirector said:


> I would like to know more about this because I think it is possible... & I don't believe LCDH sells fakes.


Some time ago there was a big stink about an LCDH (in Acapulco I believe) that was rumored to be selling fakes. As a result the management was replaced quickly.

LCDH has a lot to lose if it was ever determined that one of their locations was in fact dealing in fakes.

BTW, that box definitely has the markings of a fake. I'll try to post later this evening a pic of my Boli box I purchased at the Havana Partagas factory this year for comparison.


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## Big T (Dec 8, 2006)

rainman said:


> LCDH has a lot to lose if it was ever determined that one of their locations was in fact dealing in fakes.
> QUOTE]
> 
> My thoughts exactly. And for the record, I picked up a bunch of singles that were all the genuine article.....


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## joed (Nov 12, 2005)

Blueface said:


> I don't know of any vendor that ships to the US in that manner with Saran wrap and have had experiences with many. If there is, I sit corrected.
> Just something unheard of in my world.


I hope it's comfortable standing that way! I personally know of at least two vendors that will use Saran Wrap when packaging cigars for shipment.

It's easy, cheap and effective for cigars in transit.


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## NCRadioMan (Feb 28, 2005)

joed said:


> I personally know of at least two vendors that will use Saran Wrap when packaging cigars for shipment.
> 
> It's easy, cheap and effective for cigars in transit.


:tpd: Me too.


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## Blueface (May 28, 2005)

joed said:


> I hope it's comfortable standing that way! I personally know of at least two vendors that will use Saran Wrap when packaging cigars for shipment.
> 
> It's easy, cheap and effective for cigars in transit.


Well, corrected I am.
Have never seen the clear, cheap variety.
I guess there are so many to patronize, haven't gotten to all.
Something new every day.

I think this would have been of tremendous value if the discussion entailed a package bought from a vendor but all along, it was stated this came from a friend, therefore ruling out any vendor we may know. At that point, the wrapping became academic.


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## Da Klugs (Jan 8, 2005)

Some are invite only. Maybe yours got lost? :r



Blueface said:


> Well, corrected I am.
> Have never seen the clear, cheap variety.
> I guess there are so many to patronize, haven't gotten to all.
> Something new every day.
> ...


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## Boston_Dude05 (Oct 10, 2006)

Surprised they are shipped that way in saran wrap. I guess you learn something new everyday on these forums. I personally wouldn't be too happy with the saran warp, especially for a pricey box of goodies.


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## croatan (Mar 23, 2005)

Boston_Dude05 said:


> Surprised they are shipped that way in saran wrap. I guess you learn something new everyday on these forums. I personally wouldn't be too happy with the saran warp, especially for a pricey box of goodies.


Why not? Some people even wrap them in Saran Wrap _after _they receive them.


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## Boston_Dude05 (Oct 10, 2006)

croatan said:


> Why not? Some people even wrap them in Saran Wrap _after _they receive them.


Well, the chance for air leakage will still be there especially if they are sitting out of a humidor for 1-2 weeks during transit. Seems to be a lower quality method of packing compared to vacuum sealing. Shows me some corners are being cut.


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## Gargamel (Nov 8, 2004)

carbonbased_al said:


> I have


From Mexico?


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## Da Klugs (Jan 8, 2005)

Gargamel said:


> From Mexico?


For me.. Yup.


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## JCK (Nov 9, 2006)

Here's a great thread regarding the holograms on boxes at LCDH in Tijuana. I'm not sure if this holds true for other LCDH in Mexico.

http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showthread.php?t=80374


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## dayplanner (Dec 11, 1997)

Gargamel said:


> From Mexico?


Yep.


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## Kayak_Rat (Nov 28, 2005)

carbonbased_al said:


> I have


Guys, I would take anything Smitty says as gospel. I have had way to many conversations to ever doubt anything he says about cigars(his knowledge of frog giggin is another story).

Take the time to read and learn. There have been some people who have posted in this thread who have more cigar knowledge than I will ever attain. Be sure and watch for their posts.


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