# Challenging the Existence of Cuban Seconds



## penguinshockey (Aug 31, 2010)

I've read thru a number of posts here discussing the existence of Cuban factory "seconds" and the general consensus was that there was no such thing. I am 95% sure after much painstaking research that these are just that - although my sources didn't actually use the term "seconds" but rather described them as not meeting QC standards due to slight variation in size or wrapper color. Anybody that has purchased or seen an opened box of authentic Behikes can attest to the consistency of the appearance - so this is very believable. Apparently the sale of these out of the factory is "unofficial" whatever that means lol. 
From what I know - these Behike 54s pass all tests for being genuine - including taste - based upon my own experience. The only thing discernible differences I found in this batch of 20 is (1) a very very slight variation of thickness and color in a few of them, (2) a few of them had small blemishes on the wrapper and (3) some of the pigtails were shorter that normal. The taste and construction of the 4 that I smoked (two prior to purchasing the lot) is spot on. I purchased them because other than not being sold in the box - I couldn't disprove their authenticity and the price was what i would expect for an authentic Behike less the cost of the presentation/box. 
Please note that I took the bands off prior to bringing them back to the states so they may not be exactly in the right place....... I can provide more pics if necessary.

Comments?


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## asmartbull (Aug 16, 2009)

No such thing as seconds....the sorting table ensures a box with the same color wrappers.
I have yet to see a "second" that wasn't a fake.
I have seen fakes that were cuban tobacco


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

Sorry no seconds i did enjoy the pictures of your dogs though.
Nice looking pooches.
Enjoy your SEEGARS!


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## Laynard (Oct 10, 2013)

Forgive my ignorance, but now I wonder, if there are no such things as "seconds" from cuban factories, what do they do with ones that do not meet quality standards? Certainly, with a hand made product, imperfect/flawed product is produced at least on occasion. Rollers have to learn, and Lord knows that a newb makes mistakes. What if someone is just having an off day?


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## The invisible man (Dec 18, 2012)

That's iffy man,I would think if they weren't up to standards they would never get to the point where they would have a band put on them.Unless I bought them myself in the Cohiba factory or the factory where they were rolled I would definatly have my doubts.

If there are no such thing as factory seconds in Cuba, a worker would have had to snuck these out of the factory somehow. The chances of them ending up in our hands unless we bought them from a worker on there way out of the factory is pretty slim no?


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## defetis (Jan 5, 2014)

I would think the ones that dont meet QC standards are the ones the workers are allowed to smoke


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## penguinshockey (Aug 31, 2010)

TonyBrooklyn said:


> Sorry no seconds i did enjoy the pictures of your dogs though.
> Nice looking pooches.
> Enjoy your SEEGARS!


Really Tony?? Do you have anything to back that up? At least I have a source very close to production. Please educate me and point out what is fake about these and why they are dogs. They sure smoke like the real thing - not only myself but several others that have more experience than me with Behikes can't tell the difference. Or maybe I found the perfect fake lol.


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## Tobias Lutz (Feb 18, 2013)

IMO, "seconds" require a measure of QC to exist in the first place. In my limited experience with Habanos, and from what I have read here, Cuba provides less QC and consistency than any other cigar producing country. Seems like we're all buying their "seconds" at one time or another :lol:


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## asmartbull (Aug 16, 2009)

I wish I had a dollar for every time I heard..."my buddy has a cousin that has a friend that can get Habanos right from the factory...aND nine out of ten times it is with Cohibas....

Edit. The only thing that really matters is whether you like your cigars...
I would however, refrain from trading them as authentic. ...


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## penguinshockey (Aug 31, 2010)

asmartbull said:


> I wish I had a dollar for every time I heard..."my buddy has a cousin that has a friend that can get Habanos right from the factory...aND nine out of ten times it is with Cohibas....
> 
> Edit. The only thing that really matters is whether you like your cigars...
> I would however, refrain from trading them as authentic. ...


I agree but this is not a friend of a cousin, etc. but someone that I know and spoke to directly. It would seem that there is some amount of QC where the Behikes are concerned. Don't worry - I don't trade CCs and any gifts come with the facts. I'm nothing if not honest .


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## asmartbull (Aug 16, 2009)

You asked a question and received replies that were contrary to what you believe....oh well.
Seams you value your source more than the fogs here...and that's ok.
Did your source have something to gain ?

Heck, I hope I am wrong because if so there has to be tons of less expensive
Espy, SW, and cola's.......if this is the case, it is the best kept secret. .


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## DanTheSmoker (Nov 24, 2013)

Sorry there is no such thing. I have been to Cuba numerous times and been to the factories, granted it was years ago but they didn't have them then. Also, I have a Canadian client who used to do business in Cuba and leased property there and had high level contacts in the military. So this is second hand but I have no reason to not believe him. The military guys get the same stuff as everyone else and there is only one finished product that leaves the factory. No seconds, no over runs, no slightly damaged. Nothing. If they had seconds believe me they would be selling them in every LCDH. I have never seen any Cuban seconds in any B&M in Canada or Europe or at any LCDH in Cuba. Believe me if the cubans could make money legit off seconds they would. But there is such a demand for their stuff that there is no need to water it down with seconds.


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## JustinThyme (Jun 17, 2013)

Tobias Lutz said:


> IMO, "seconds" require a measure of QC to exist in the first place. In my limited experience with Habanos, and from what I have read here, Cuba provides less QC and consistency than any other cigar producing country. Seems like we're all buying their "seconds" at one time or another :lol:


While I'm not the authority on this I'm with Tobias. I dont think there are any seconds as there is nothing to say something is a second, they all get packed and when one is just totally fubar My guess is it will either get split and re-rolled or some torcedore is enjoying a smoke on the house.


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## brazil stogie (Mar 22, 2013)

I have purchased CC from Brazil, HK, Switzerland, London, Spain. I think there is a difference in quality from where the CC is bought from, in other words I believe European stock is higher quality than LCDH cigars in Brazil for example.


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## asmartbull (Aug 16, 2009)

brazil stogie said:


> I have purchased CC from Brazil, HK, Switzerland, London, Spain. I think there is a difference in quality from where the CC is bought from, in other words I believe European stock is higher quality than LCDH cigars in Brazil for example.


This could be it's own thread....lot of debate on this


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

penguinshockey said:


> Really Tony?? Do you have anything to back that up? At least I have a source very close to production. Please educate me and point out what is fake about these and why they are dogs. They sure smoke like the real thing - not only myself but several others that have more experience than me with Behikes can't tell the difference. Or maybe I found the perfect fake lol.


My reference was to the pictures of your dogs on photo bucket.
Mona
http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i374/penguinshockey10/IMG_01111_zps146bff99.jpg

Stella

http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i374/penguinshockey10/IMG_01081_zpsf3600b58.jpg

As far as proof the burden of proof lies with you my friend.
You are the one who claims that 2nds exist.


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## cigarmax (Feb 23, 2011)

:grouphugon't confuse our doubt with scorn, for we have chased this unicorn.


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## JustinThyme (Jun 17, 2013)

brazil stogie said:


> I have purchased CC from Brazil, HK, Switzerland, London, Spain. I think there is a difference in quality from where the CC is bought from, in other words I believe European stock is higher quality than LCDH cigars in Brazil for example.





asmartbull said:


> This could be it's own thread....lot of debate on this


Now this I have heard more than once and experienced two different smokes under the same band in the UK and Russia. Could have been they were just different vintages but they were definitely a different flavor profile. Couldn't really say about the color of the wrapper as those will vary from box to box.


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

brazil stogie said:


> I have purchased CC from Brazil, HK, Switzerland, London, Spain. I think there is a difference in quality from where the CC is bought from, in other words I believe European stock is higher quality than LCDH cigars in Brazil for example.





asmartbull said:


> This could be it's own thread....lot of debate on this


As you all know for a long time the general consensus was. That EMS Cigars sent to England where better than regular production Habano's. I have found that the process of sorting for appearance to be excellent on EMS cigars. But taste wise they are just like any other Habano.
Now as far as cigars shipped to Spain. Some of the tastiest Habanos i have ever smoked. And a Habano i had smoked from a special presentation of Habanos gotten in Spain. Are to date the best Habanos i have ever smoked Bar none!
Does this mean in fact that these perceptions of better production stock for certain areas of the world to be better than what is sold on the island of Cuba or by grey market vendors or by LCDH'S etc.
Be it that i would have to provide proof as i am the one claiming that something is outside the norm of what is for lack of a better term scripture.
I will respectfully decline opening that can of worms as the only proof i have is what i have experienced.


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## fiddlegrin (Feb 8, 2009)

TonyBrooklyn said:


> Now as far as cigars shipped to Spain. Some of the tastiest Habanos i have ever smoked.....


That is very interesting for me to hear :ear: 
Because I had the same experience! The _"mains in Spain"_ were much better than the cigars I got in France, Italy or Great Britain.
I never brought it up before because it is anecdotal evidence...

:rockon:


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## The invisible man (Dec 18, 2012)

"According to Habanos S.A., the official export company for all Cuban cigars worldwide, average production ranges between 160 million and 170 million sticks each year. About 40 percent of this is earmarked for Spain and France, under an agreement inked back in 2000, as a condition of a merger between Tabacalera, the government tobacco company of Spain, and SEITA, the government tobacco company of France, and their acquisition of 50 percent of the stock in Habanos S.A. for $500 million."

Maybe this has an impact on what they riecieve?


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## penguinshockey (Aug 31, 2010)

TonyBrooklyn said:


> My reference was to the pictures of your dogs on photo bucket.
> Mona
> http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i374/penguinshockey10/IMG_01111_zps146bff99.jpg
> 
> ...


That's funny! I forgot those pics were there. Those are my daughter's dogs. I have three walker hounds of my own.....

I agree on the burden of proof though. It's just amazing to me - if they are fakes then they are damn good ones which I would pay $18 for.

Stay tuned - I'm close to making a decision of which I may need some help.


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## penguinshockey (Aug 31, 2010)

cigarmax said:


> :grouphugon't confuse our doubt with scorn, for we have chased this unicorn.


I'm not. In fact For the record - I really do appreciate the feedback on this and I respect everybody's comments.



DanTheSmoker said:


> Believe me if the cubans could make money legit off seconds they would. But there is such a demand for their stuff that there is no need to water it down with seconds.


 I think we can all agree that there would be a market for Behike seconds and still a lot of profit to be made at say 50% lower cost. So maybe they are making money on seconds - from a limited market of associates only because the quantity of seconds is limited.



TonyBrooklyn said:


> As you all know for a long time the general consensus was. That EMS Cigars sent to England where better than regular production Habano's. I have found that the process of sorting for appearance to be excellent on EMS cigars. But taste wise they are just like any other Habano.
> Now as far as cigars shipped to Spain. Some of the tastiest Habanos i have ever smoked. And a Habano i had smoked from a special presentation of Habanos gotten in Spain. Are to date the best Habanos i have ever smoked Bar none!
> Does this mean in fact that these perceptions of better production stock for certain areas of the world to be better than what is sold on the island of Cuba or by grey market vendors or by LCDH'S etc.


So you agree that a "grey market" does exist? That would certainly be an outlet for seconds, right?


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## SeanTheEvans (Dec 13, 2013)

This thread has been most educational for myself as a lurker. 

Learned about CC 2nds, a short history of French & Spanish involvement in the CC trade, and a bit about dogs as well.

Great job fellas, and they say the internet isn't for lernin.


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## penguinshockey (Aug 31, 2010)

Here are some detailed pictures of the bands on the Behikes 54s in question. Does anybody see any indication of the bands being fake cause I sure can't?
It was very challenging to get good macro pictures due to the reflection of the gold. All of the lettering except "Habana, Cuba" is raised/embossed and the holograms speak for themslves.


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## The invisible man (Dec 18, 2012)

http://www.cubancigarwebsite.com/fakes.aspx

This link will explain the supply chain and what the grey market is for Habanos

As far as the grey market being an outlet for seconds, I don't believe this is the case.Every purchase I have made has been through the grey market and everything has been good quality, in a sealed box, I like to be the first one to open it and fondle the cigars,I'm kinky like that.

Anyway, I have never bought any $18 behikies without the box through the grey market and if someone offers them to me Or had them advertised on there site I wouldn't touch them with a 10 foot pole.But that's just me, call me crazy.

Disclaimer-I am by no means an expert, just a guy who loves habanos and has nothing better to do.


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## penguinshockey (Aug 31, 2010)

The invisible man said:


> Anyway, I have never bought any $18 behikies without the box through the grey market and if someone offers them to me Or had them advertised on there site I wouldn't touch them with a 10 foot pole.But that's just me, call me crazy.


When these were shown to me I was sure they going to be fakes. After examining the bands and the construction, I wasn't so sure. So I bought one to try since I knew that smoking it would be the best way to tell. First I went to an LCDH and compared it with a genuine Behike 54. It was amazingly similar - the wrapper color was just a bit off. Now I was really intrigued so I lit it up that evening....and here we are - not sure if it's a fake or genuine. I've done a lot of research since then however....and I think that there is only one way to be sure either way.



The invisible man said:


> As far as the grey market being an outlet for seconds, I don't believe this is the case.Every purchase I have made has been through the grey market and everything has been good quality, in a sealed box, I like to be the first one to open it and fondle the cigars,I'm kinky like that.


I'm not gonna touch that one with a 10 foot pole lol.


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## sligub (Apr 6, 2011)

As has been said there are no seconds from Cuba and bands are only affixed after QC has been completed and the cigars are being boxed. Anything that fails QC is sent back to be taken apart and used again.


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## asmartbull (Aug 16, 2009)

penguinshockey said:


> I'm not. In fact For the record - I really do appreciate the feedback on this and I respect everybody's comments.
> 
> I think we can all agree that there would be a market for Behike seconds and still a lot of profit to be made at say 50% lower cost. So maybe they are making money on seconds - from a limited market of associates only because the quantity of seconds is limited.
> 
> So you agree that a "grey market" does exist? That would certainly be an outlet for seconds, right?


NO....one has NOTHING to do with the other.
NO seconds

YES...grey market

It is apparent what you want to believe....so be it.....
But be sure of this....the Behike may be one of the most counterfeited cigars in the marca.
I have also seen fakes that have fooled seasoned fogs......
On a side note, counterfeit bands is a striving industry. ...


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## john_007 (Nov 4, 2011)

If it sounds to good to be true it probably is. why would cuba ever risk tarnishing the reputation of their most prestigious line by allowing seconds into the market. Think about it thats like Lamborghini selling a car with a ford engine. what would they gain. and only the best rollers and Tobacco are used for the BHK i doubt the mess up too often. just my thoughts.


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## Perfecto Dave (Nov 24, 2009)

I'm not sure some may understand what/why there is a "grey market" in cuban cigars. Grey market cuban cigars don't automatically mean fakes. I know when some other items/articles are referred to in a grey market, it DOES automatically mean fakes.
Genuine Behikes for 18$ US just isn't possible. Seconds or not....why would they be selling for 40-50$ from Cuba then?
Of course all of the above is just IMHO and in no way is deemed a reliable source of information.


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## Cigar-Enthusiast (Feb 2, 2014)

Perfecto Dave said:


> I'm not sure some may understand what/why there is a "grey market" in cuban cigars. Grey market cuban cigars don't automatically mean fakes. I know when some other items/articles are referred to in a grey market, it DOES automatically mean fakes.
> Genuine Behikes for 18$ US just isn't possible. Seconds or not....why would they be selling for 40-50$ from Cuba then?
> Of course all of the above is just IMHO and in no way is deemed a reliable source of information.


They are selling for around 18-20 in Cuba. I couldn't find a source that isn't a vendor to provide a price for the 54, so you can add a few bucks to the price of the 52. So 18 dollars is right around the price it should be, if it is "a second."

Where in the world did you get 40-50?

Cohiba Behike BHK 52 @ Cigar Inspector

Anyway to chime in here.

Good fakes usually use real bands. Thus bands cannot determine legitimacy alone. Especially in such an unusual situation. Moreover I wouldn't even consider a blind smoking test to be a true indication of its legitimacy since so many factors and variables can skew the test. Skilled bootleggers can replicate a very similar blend using similar tobacco to produce an almost exact replica of the intended product. Just as some counterfeit handbags are almost indistinguishable to a genuine product. Thus that mean the counterfeit is worthless? Absolutely not! Most times they are worth the price since the same high quality materials are used, but are marked up less. Thus the only way to determine if these seconds are legit is to witness firsthand their production in the factory, which is highly unlikely.

Now for some related history! 
Interestingly the history of counterfeiting goes back to Roman times and maybe even further. One of the most expensive products were clothes, usually togas, dyed Tyrian purple (actually more reddish in color than purple). The dye itself was very costly to manufacture because thousands of tiny Murex snails in a process that was highly odorous. Evident by the dying facilities being located miles away from residential zones. Anyway in order to fool others of their wealth, people began to produce purple dyes that were less expensive to produce than Tyrian purple. Hence one of the earliest counterfeited products emerged.

Hope you enjoyed by little history lesson.


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## The invisible man (Dec 18, 2012)

Cigar-Enthusiast said:


> They are selling for around 18-20 in Cuba. I couldn't find a source that isn't a vendor to provide a price for the 54, so you can add a few bucks to the price of the 52. So 18 dollars is right around the price it should be, if it is "a second."
> 
> Where in the world did you get 40-50?
> 
> Cohiba Behike BHK 52 @ Cigar Inspector


YUL Cigars: The new cigar price list for Cuba

As of October 26, 2013 in the list listed in the link above the price of Behikie 54 in Cuba is $29.20,and those are prices in Cuba.Online vendors cost for the 54 are around $35 a piece .And other parts of the world with high tobacco taxes,Canada,UK, you can easily pay $50 for a single Behikie 54.

I think you mean $18 is right around the price it should be if it's a fake?


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## Cigar-Enthusiast (Feb 2, 2014)

The invisible man said:


> YUL Cigars: The new cigar price list for Cuba
> 
> As of October 26, 2013 in the list listed in the link above the price of Behikie 54 in Cuba is $29.20,and those are prices in Cuba.Online vendors cost for the 54 are around $35 a piece .And other parts of the world with high tobacco taxes,Canada,UK, you can easily pay $50 for a single Behikie 54.
> 
> I think you mean $18 is right around the price it should be if it's a fake?


I could be wrong since I've never personally been to Cuba, but I was told that Behikes were around 20-25 bucks in Cuba a few years ago. Even so the 40-50 dollars still a bit off.


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## bpegler (Mar 30, 2006)

If you purchased Havanas that were reportedly seconds, you purchased fakes. Some cigars do walk out of the factory, but they are unbanded bundles, not seconds.

Unfortunately the Behike band has been counterfeited since 2012. I believe these first were discovered being sold from a vendor in the Caribbean.

As for the question about which region gets the best cigars from HSA, the official answer is that they are all the same. However, I too have my doubts. EMS cigars from the late 90s are almost all smoking well, even the skinniest. Not something you can say about most cigars from that time.


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## szyzk (Nov 27, 2010)

bpegler said:


> Unfortunately the Behike band has been counterfeited since 2012.


Update to this: Cohiba Behike Bands Get New Security Holograms | News & Features | Cigar Aficionado


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