# Cohiba Esplendidos



## OldDirty (Feb 24, 2008)

Hey guys I'm thinking about picking up this box from a guy who came back from Cuba a month ago and has these smokes for sale. I know these are the most counterfeited cigars on the market so I have my doubts specially at a asking price of 160$. If you guys could give me your opinion I would appreciate it.

The bands look good but the cigars look a little too veiny for my taste


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## skullnrose (Feb 18, 2007)

Anything that sounds to good to be true is usually just that. Too Good To Be True or in this case Real !


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## Addiction (May 8, 2007)

No way possible to get a box of Espys for $160 unless he was feeling on your ass when he made the offer and he said the cash would change hands in the bedroom......


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## Asher (Feb 4, 2008)

Those look fake. The cigars don't appear to have a triple cap. Furthermore, the box is poorly constructed (look at the insides of the corners), and it doesn't look like an Esplendido box to begin with.


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## Darrell (Aug 12, 2007)

Addiction said:


> No way possible to get a box of Espys for $160 unless he was feeling on your ass when he made the offer and he said the cash would change hands in the bedroom......


:r

OMFG.

$160 would get you about 5 of the real ones.


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## Costa (Jan 26, 2008)

Addiction said:


> No way possible to get a box of Espys for $160 unless he was feeling on your ass when he made the offer and he said the cash would change hands in the bedroom......


I just woke up my sleeping gf in the other room with a laughter outburst.......omg:r


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## SeanGAR (Jul 9, 2004)

http://marty.514crew.com/cigarprices.html

Retail price for a box of 25 esplendidos *IN CUBA* is $448.

I think that answers your question.


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## newcigarz (Feb 11, 2007)

SeanGAR said:


> http://marty.514crew.com/cigarprices.html
> 
> Retail price for a box of 25 esplendidos *IN CUBA* is $448.
> 
> I think that answers your question.


:tpd:


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## Smoked (Apr 12, 2007)

I forget what that paper in the box is called but it looks like it was cut with scissors.


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

$160 in for a box of any cigars in Canada is a deal, so I would pick them up. 

Fake, most likely, but as long as they are not tight, you'll have more than $160 worth of enjoyment.

Offer $10 a cigar on 3 of them to evaluate.


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## Blueface (May 28, 2005)

mosesbotbol said:


> $160 in for a box of any cigars in Canada is a deal, so I would pick them up.
> 
> Fake, most likely, but as long as they are not tight, you'll have more than $160 worth of enjoyment.
> 
> Offer $10 a cigar on 3 of them to evaluate.


:tpd:

Real they are not.
Many reasons why.
Box, bands, how they were acquired, price and on and on.
Perhaps they may be enjoyable fakes.
At that price, why not?
I would give it a shot and send them around to folks to try some.


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

Blueface said:


> :tpd:
> 
> Real they are not.
> Many reasons why.
> ...


Also the wrappers are veiny and toothy.

Me personally I wouldn't pay a nickel for them. Some nice real Cubans you could buy for 160.00 that would provide more enjoyment IMO. :2


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## Texan in Mexico (Oct 29, 2007)

Morning OldDirty,

I have been thru this a couple times myself. 

The true market price for a box of Kohibas on the street in Havana is about 60$ usd. Maybe your friend bought them for around there and wants to make a 100$ usd off the deal, I don't know.

What I can confidently say is that the box and paper you have there is very similiar to the ones I have and they are not real factory Cohibas.

Now let's take a step back - my Kohibas are actually very nice mild - medium sticks with that distinctive grassy taste and are hand rolled in Cuba. 

Mine are triple capped and rolled by someone that really knows how to roll. 

Mine are fake and they lack that kick that a real Cohiba has and they lack the complexity as well.

However, they are nice sticks and at the price I get them at - a real bargain.

If you can get over the fact they are fake they might just be enjoyable but they seem very steep to me at that price IMHO, especially when you consider cbid, Taboo or some of the other CCs.

Good luck and shoot me a PM if you buy a couple, I would be interested to see if they smoke similiar to mine.

Travis


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## Mtmouse (Jun 11, 2007)

mosesbotbol said:


> $160 in for a box of any cigars in Canada is a deal, so I would pick them up.
> 
> Fake, most likely, but as long as they are not tight, you'll have more than $160 worth of enjoyment.


And have real tobacco in them.

I was gifted a fake Cohiba. When I cut it open, you could tell it was made from scraps that were swept from the floor. There were cutoff ends and cookie or bread crumbs in it.


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## ResIpsa (Mar 8, 2006)

Fredster said:


> Also the wrappers are veiny and toothy.
> 
> Me personally I wouldn't pay a nickel for them. Some nice real Cubans you could buy for 160.00 that would provide more enjoyment IMO. :2


:tpd:

My thought exactly. Why pay $160.00 for an unknown when you can pay the same or less and get a good cigar.


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## poker (Dec 11, 1997)

mosesbotbol said:


> $160 in for a box of any cigars in Canada is a deal, so I would pick them up.
> 
> Fake, most likely, but as long as they are not tight, you'll have more than $160 worth of enjoyment.
> 
> Offer $10 a cigar on 3 of them to evaluate.


And the downside is you are willingly participating in filling the pockets of counterfitters with cash, which allows them to market more of this crap.


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

I have had a fake box of Esplendidos from Cuba. The were whole leaf filler and decent looking. Many were tight, but the ones that weren't were fine enough cigars.

$160 can buy a lot of real Habanos, but Canada is notorious catching mail shipments. Actually getting the $160 box delivered at the price can be rare. 

Try couple and go from there. A good cigar does not need to be from any particular country, and just has to taste good.


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

poker said:


> And the downside is you are willingly participating in filling the pockets of counterfitters with cash, which allows them to market more of this crap.


Counterfitters in Cuba are hardly rich.


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## poker (Dec 11, 1997)

mosesbotbol said:


> Counterfitters in Cuba are hardly rich.


Understood but why help them out?


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## Addiction (May 8, 2007)

People keep saying they could be good. Its true they could be, but how probable is that? Its is more likely they will be awful.


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

poker said:


> Understood but why help them out?


Because I do not like seeing families starve.


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## SeanGAR (Jul 9, 2004)

If you do buy them, freeze them, fakes are notorious for having beetle problems.


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## poker (Dec 11, 1997)

mosesbotbol said:


> Because I do not like seeing families starve.


Wait a minute...

Lemme get this straight. You dont want to see people starve so you knowingly and willing buy counterfit cuban cigars? Are you serious?

If so, you are a better man than I (I guess).

I DO NOT buy or enguage in transactions that are known counterfits because all it does is allow conterfitters to make more of the same by proving that there is a market for them. For every box that is sold, it dosent just fund another counterfit box, it funds multiples. I refuse to participate in making this hobby of ours harder by knowingly funding the fakes market so they can make more. Its bad enough with all the folks who dont know any better getting dupped, and worse when we have folks who actually love this hobby get dupped.

I mean, feel free to do what you like, but when a brother here at CS gets ripped for buying a fake box, I'll know I didnt help financially fund that box to the streets.


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## Texan in Mexico (Oct 29, 2007)

poker said:


> Wait a minute...
> 
> Lemme get this straight. You dont want to see people starve so you knowingly and willing buy counterfit cuban cigars? Are you serious?
> 
> ...


You make a very good point here Poker - I had bought three boxes of Kohibas before I looked to a couple BOTLs here for help.

Once I confirmed they were not the real deal, I had my suspiscions but had hopes as they are tasty sticks...., I have not purchased anything else from them - I explained to them why and everything.

Piracy is a HUGE problem here in Latin America for everything from electronics, to shampoo to medicines.

People die here because they found a good deal on meds that turned out to be too good to be true.

I'm going to make a small bonfire of my remaining 20 or so Kohibas, maybe make a post with some actions shots - don't know - I will take suggestions from the peanut gallery though if someone has a better idea as I will not be smoking them now, Poker has turned me into an advocate now hahaha.

As for the starving families in Cuba - the average family gets about 30$ usd worth of coupons and some staples to get by each month, many of these Kohibas are made by professional rollers (many are not as well), and the solution to Cuba is not purchasing counterfeit sticks - it is freedom - freedom of the press, freedom to gather publicly and freedom of enterprise, however this might just be my perspective.

Travis


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## Habanolover (Feb 22, 2006)

Texan in Mexico said:


> I'm going to make a small bonfire of my remaining 20 or so Kohibas, maybe make a post with some actions shots - don't know - I will take suggestions from the peanut gallery though if someone has a better idea as I will not be smoking them now, Poker has turned me into an advocate now hahaha.
> 
> Travis


I would dissect a few and see exactly what kind of tobacoo (long filler, short, banana leaves, etc) is being used. I would guess from your description that it is long but you never know for sure. Yep, a little CSI is what I would do. :2


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## newcigarz (Feb 11, 2007)

poker said:


> I mean, feel free to do what you like, but when a brother here at CS gets ripped for buying a fake box, I'll know I didnt help financially fund that box to the streets.


+1 gotta agree with you there.


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## fsjonsey (May 23, 2008)

mosesbotbol said:


> Counterfitters in Cuba are hardly rich.


And for that matter, does Raul Castro need any more money?


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## rumballs (Mar 15, 2005)

mosesbotbol said:


> *Counterfitters* in Cuba are hardly rich.


Yeah I heard not many people in Cuba go for the custom granite...


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## Texan in Mexico (Oct 29, 2007)

fsjonsey said:


> And for that matter, does Raul Castro need any more money?


Once I realized what was going on with my sticks I had a friend of mine do some research for me there (my company sends sales reps to Cuba every couple months or so though I do not go for other reasons) - turns out the majority of these Kohibas are made from stolen tobacco, stolen certificates and either home made or old boxes. The revenues from these sales don't go to Governement - quite the contrary - they will confiscate cigars upon departure if they do not have the correct tax stamps...


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

fsjonsey said:


> And for that matter, does Raul Castro need any more money?


No, he does not need more money, but 99.5% of the rest of Cuba certainly does.


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## LkyLindy (Feb 1, 2008)

Absolutely fakes BUT
Lets see the bottom of the box for arguments sake


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

SeanGAR said:


> If you do buy them, freeze them, fakes are notorious for having beetle problems.


Yup! Good advice.


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## OldDirty (Feb 24, 2008)

Thanks guys I wasn't expecting such an overwhelming response, I won't be wasting a dime on this box.


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## landhoney (May 17, 2008)

mmblz said:


> Yeah I heard not many people in Cuba go for the custom granite...


Bazzzing! -stewie
:r
Very funny


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## DonnieW (Jul 2, 2008)

BTW Most of the so-called cuban fakes sold in Canada (Montreal, Toronto, and Vancouver) are produced locally. There are two Montreal-ers in court now accused of fraud amongst other things. A quick glance at my friend Craig's list finds lots 'things' for sale and it seems like $160 is a good deal


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## Addiction (May 8, 2007)

Texan in Mexico said:


> .....I'm going to make a small bonfire of my remaining 20 or so Kohibas, maybe make a post with some actions shots - don't know - I will take suggestions from the peanut gallery though if someone has a better idea as I will not be smoking them now, Poker has turned me into an advocate now hahaha.....


Advocacy is great but you already own these sticks. Burning or tossing them penalizes no one but you. If you like them keep smoking them. Besides if you bought sticks in Cuba the likelihood is high that the tobacco in them is cuban even if its not long filler. I'd simply smoke them but resolve not to buy more.


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## fsjonsey (May 23, 2008)

Buy fakes, support Cuban entrepreneurship.:chk:mn


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## Blueface (May 28, 2005)

Folks,
Counterfeiters in Cuba are human beings trying to survive any way they can.
They are not folks trying to get rich.
They are trying to support their families.

If we were talking about buying a box in Miami, I agree I would not support that.
To buy a box in Cuba, of real Cuban tobacco, that may smoke very good given many of these cigars come from tobacco stolen out of the factories, so they can in turn feed their families because they can't survive at $12 a month? I have no problem supporting that.

P.S.
Texas in Mexico,
I have never had one and would love to so I can compare to the real ones.
If you are offering, I will try one rather than see you bonfire them.


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## poker (Dec 11, 1997)

feel free & buy away then:ss


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## Blueface (May 28, 2005)

poker said:


> feel free & buy away then:ss


It is not about buying away. No one should buy fakes as they traditionally make it to the states. The OP is referring to a box bought inside of Cuba.
It is just about some "clarification".
Buying fakes in the states or anywhere in the world is something that should not be supported by anyone and I fully agree.
I have never knowingly bought any and hope I have never had any unknowingly.

Buying fakes in Cuba, knowing they are fakes, knowing that it is pot luck but you may get something decent to smoke for the money and knowing that no one is getting rich and that you are simply helping a poor soul feed his family as opposed to helping Habanos, S.A. and Altadis of Spain is not something one should feel guilty about. That in no way encourages anything other than supporting a simple human concept called "survival".

If I were in Cuba (which can't happen in the near future as I don't have the ability to go to in spite of being born there) and I saw a guy selling them in the street, knowing how little they earn to roll those cigars for our pleasure, I would be tempted as heck to try them out and would have no guilt about it.


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## Sandman (Mar 26, 2006)

Addiction said:


> No way possible to get a box of Espys for $160 unless he was feeling on your ass when he made the offer and he said the cash would change hands in the bedroom......


:r You just made my day Brian!


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## hk3 (Jan 29, 2008)

Addiction said:


> No way possible to get a box of Espys for $160 unless he was feeling on your ass when he made the offer and he said the cash would change hands in the bedroom......


Cigars with happy endings! :chk:r:r:bn


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## Mr.Maduro (Aug 2, 2006)

Blueface said:


> It is not about buying away. No one should buy fakes as they traditionally make it to the states. The OP is referring to a box bought inside of Cuba.
> It is just about some "clarification".
> Buying fakes in the states or anywhere in the world is something that should not be supported by anyone and I fully agree.
> I have never knowingly bought any and hope I have never had any unknowingly.
> ...


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## fsjonsey (May 23, 2008)

Blueface said:


> It is not about buying away. No one should buy fakes as they traditionally make it to the states. The OP is referring to a box bought inside of Cuba.
> It is just about some "clarification".
> Buying fakes in the states or anywhere in the world is something that should not be supported by anyone and I fully agree.
> I have never knowingly bought any and hope I have never had any unknowingly.
> ...


:tpd:


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## poker (Dec 11, 1997)

Blueface said:


> To buy a box in Cuba, of real Cuban tobacco, that may smoke very good given many of these cigars come from tobacco stolen out of the factories, so they can in turn feed their families because they can't survive at $12 a month? I have no problem supporting that.


So support away then.


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## poker (Dec 11, 1997)

This thread is on the way from "is this real?" to "justification on why I would buy fakes".

(I actually cut what I was going to say initially, but decided it would not be in good taste).

All I'm really saying is there is no way Im investing for any reason in a box of known counterfit cigars made to look like something they are not.


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## Blueface (May 28, 2005)

poker said:


> This thread is on the way from "is this real?" to "justification on why I would buy fakes".


Poker,
With all due respect, and I genuinely mean that, please see post #16. Perhaps that is the origin.


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## LasciviousXXX (Oct 12, 2004)

Blueface said:


> Folks,
> Counterfeiters in Cuba are human beings trying to survive any way they can.
> They are not folks trying to get rich.
> They are trying to support their families.


Then by this same logic I should buy crack from the dealers on the corner who are just trying to survive and buy food for their kids.

Sorry my friend but this logic is flawed IMO and just a convenient excuse to talk about purchasing fakes.


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## poker (Dec 11, 1997)

LasciviousXXX said:


> Then by this same logic I should buy crack from the dealers on the corner who are just trying to survive and buy food for their kids.


Ok, bag split.:ss


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## LasciviousXXX (Oct 12, 2004)

poker said:


> Ok, bag split.:ss


Don't make me bust out the _picture_ 

:r


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## Blueface (May 28, 2005)

LasciviousXXX said:


> Then by this same logic I should buy crack from the dealers on the corner who are just trying to survive and buy food for their kids.
> 
> Sorry my friend but this logic is flawed IMO and just a convenient excuse to talk about purchasing fakes.


Dustin,
Crack is illegal, even in Cuba.
Tobacco is not.
I don't agree with fakes.
I think I clearly stated that.
I just seem to understand that man in the streets of Cuba selling it better than most.
Perhaps it has to do with the blood that runs through my veins.


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## poker (Dec 11, 1997)

sorry D :r


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## LasciviousXXX (Oct 12, 2004)

Blueface said:


> Dustin,
> Crack is illegal, even in Cuba.
> Tobacco is not.
> I don't agree with fakes.
> ...


I understand where you're coming from bro, however I think your personal experiences and the life you've lead are kind of influencing your thought process in this situation.

Yes, I agree life is hard on the majority of Cuban People however if you take the "Cuban People" part out of the equation you're still left with the same logic which is I should support an enterprise I do not agree with based on the economic stability of the person selling it. If you move it into the Ghetto of the US you could apply the same logic but it would be different for you personally because it then does not involve your people.

Again no offense intended bro but I cannot justify supporting the counterfeit market just because life is hard on the counterfeiters.


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## poker (Dec 11, 1997)

Blueface said:


> Dustin,
> Crack is illegal, even in Cuba.
> Tobacco is not.
> I don't agree with fakes.
> ...


I understand & respect your compassion. 
But after being in this hobby of ours for so many years, and seeing person after person (or in the case of this board member after member) get something that isnt what it supposed to be, its gets old quickly.
I lost count of how many folks this has happened to that I have seen & it pisses me off to no end. To me a counterfitter is a counterfitter. It is a person making money off the unsuspecting.


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## Blueface (May 28, 2005)

LasciviousXXX said:


> I understand where you're coming from bro, however I think your personal experiences and the life you've lead are kind of influencing your thought process in this situation.
> 
> Yes, I agree life is hard on the majority of Cuban People however if you take the "Cuban People" part out of the equation you're still left with the same logic which is I should support an enterprise I do not agree with based on the economic stability of the person selling it. If you move it into the Ghetto of the US you could apply the same logic but it would be different for you personally because it then does not involve your people.
> 
> Again no offense intended bro but I cannot justify supporting the counterfeit market just because life is hard on the counterfeiters.


Dustin,
No offense would be taken at all.
I totally hear you and where you are coming from.
Not everything is always black and white.
When you refer to "counterfeit market", I take that as what we all know exists world wide.
Often times, garbage, produced by a network designed to make tons of money from unsuspecting individuals.
More times than not, fake tobacco, none Cuban.
No one should ever support that.
In fact, I can see how no one should ever support the scenario I am defending, which is buying from that Cuban on the streets of Cuba.
However, if one knows that one is buying a fake, that can very well be good tobacco and wants to take a shot at it, buying from that Cuban is in no way feeding or fueling that mass enterprise usually associated with fakes.
You are putting some money in the hands of a person earning $12 a month, who pays much more for clothing and food than you and I do.
This thread heads as if one has to feel guilty about doing that.
I say not at all.
Don't support it but don't confuse it with the illegal networks that flood the market with fakes.


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## Blueface (May 28, 2005)

poker said:


> I understand & respect your compassion.
> But after being in this hobby of ours for so many years, and seeing person after person (or in the case of this board member after member) get something that isnt what it supposed to be, its gets old quickly.
> I lost count of how many folks this has happened to that I have seen & it pisses me off to no end. To me a counterfitter is a counterfitter. It is a person making money off the unsuspecting.


Poker,
Totally agree with you.
I too get ticked off as folks taken are the ones that usually say "Cubans suck".
No kidding.:r


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## Shabalula (Feb 24, 2007)

Blueface said:


> Dustin,
> Crack is illegal, even in Cuba.
> Tobacco is not.
> I don't agree with fakes.
> ...


Isn't counterfeiting illegal, even in Cuba?


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## winnie (Feb 27, 2007)

I have been the victim of counterfeit smokes, and they were total garbage.

The way I look at it, when you see a Rolex for $20, you know its a fake. When I'm going through the market of whereever I happen to be on holidays at, and they're selling fake smokes for $10 per stick, most people don't know their buying fakes, they think they're real.

Like I said, I've bought fakes, for a good dollar, and they were mostly unsmokeable. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

I'll give you another reason to stay away from fakes. Almost all have beetle larvae because they do not go through the same process legit cigars do at the factory. 

I don't agree at all with some of the advice given here to "roll the dice because they are cheap and may be decent." They may also be short filler scraps full of potenitaly damaging beetles.

I'd be willing to bet a lot of money you would be much happier with a box of legit Boli PC's, Party Shorts, or Cohiba Siglo 1's than a 160.00 box of fakes.


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## Blueface (May 28, 2005)

Shabalula said:


> Isn't counterfeiting illegal, even in Cuba?


:r
I will not go there.
Will just say, go back in history and learn how of how Habanos, S.A. got to own all those brands that once belonged to independent businessmen.
How they acquired them, it would be two faced to say some now can't counterfeit them.



Fredster said:


> I don't agree at all with some of the advice given here to "roll the dice because they are cheap and may be decent." They may also be short filler scraps full of potenitaly damaging beetles.


That is what rolling the dice is.
Many have said some are actually not bad at all.
Let's not lose sight of my point here. I am purely addressing the comments that no one should support counterfeiters. While I agree totally, I have tried to distinguish between a slob on the street dying of hunger and a large network and all I have said is I don't see why guilt should be a factor in giving that man a few dollars, if you know fully well it is pot luck. I guess one has to be Cuban and know how they live to truly understand that concept and I recognize many on this board are not.

The great thing for me is that it is purely hypothetical as I cannot go to Cuba.
However, my interest is sincerely spiked in trying a decent quality one, if I can ever get my hands on it. I am not referring to 'Miami' or US ones at all. I don't ever want to see one of those. I want one out of Cuba, bought in Cuba.

The only ones my dad and I have ever had came via my uncle. Poor man paid $100 and sent them to us thinking he was sending us gold.
Turned out to be a glass top of R&J and did in fact have beetles as you say.
Again, if you know up front, you are gambling but may or may not pay off.


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## Addiction (May 8, 2007)

Blueface I mean no offense but the previous question is a valid one, I do believe counterfiting is illegal in Cuba. Until the people in Cuba do something to change that it is what it is.

I might buy your stand that it is a harmless crime, but I've come to believe of late that there are no harmless crimes.


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## Blueface (May 28, 2005)

Addiction said:


> Blueface I mean no offense but the previous question is a valid one, I do believe counterfiting is illegal in Cuba. Until the people in Cuba do something to change that it is what it is.
> 
> I might buy your stand that it is a harmless crime, but I've come to believe of late that there are no harmless crimes.


Never said harmless.
More like necessity.
Earlier, someone said "crack".
Well, in the US, a crack dealer can choose to work at McDonald's instead.
No McDonald's where we are talking about.

What I find ironic is so many support the argument that counterfeiting is illegal (me included to be quite clear), to the extent perhaps that man on the streets of Cuba should be hung in public, yet after we are done posting on this thread, we access the web, order legitimate Cuban cigars and violate a law called an Embargo. Who knows, we may even do a large group buy.
Food for thought.


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

I hear what your saying. Trying some fakes from a guy on the streets of Cuba trying to put food on the table, and knowing you are probably not going to get much is understandable. This is off topic, but there is a lot of extreme poverty here in the states too. I donate a lot of money to good causes, but I just would not buy fakes. Especially not here in the States. All the ones I've tried in the States are crap sold by greedy people who are ripping people off. Sometimes people actually believe they are selling the real deal.

My comments are based on the average guy here potentially wasting 160.00, and risking introducing beetles to their collection. To some guys here 160.00 is a lot of money. If thats the case, it makes no sense to risk it. You can spend 160.00 with a legit vendor and if there is a problem you can return them.



Blueface said:


> :r
> I will not go there.
> Will just say, go back in history and learn how of how Habanos, S.A. got to own all those brands that once belonged to independent businessmen.
> How they acquired them, it would be two faced to say some now can't counterfeit them.
> ...


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## poker (Dec 11, 1997)

Blueface said:


> Well, in the US, a crack dealer can choose to work at McDonald's instead.
> No McDonald's where we are talking about.


Then as in Cuba, I would be led to assume that the guy selling counterfit Cohibas could opt out as well and sell things other than fake Cohibas, as in jewelery made from local items, souveneers, etc. 
No?


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## Blueface (May 28, 2005)

Fredster said:


> I hear what your saying. Trying some fakes from a guy on the streets of Cuba trying to put food on the table, and knowing you are probably not going to get much is understandable. This is off topic, but there is a lot of extreme poverty here in the states too. I donate a lot of money to good causes, but I just would not buy fakes. Especially not here in the States. All the ones I've tried in the States are crap sold by greedy people who are ripping people off. Sometimes people actually believe they are selling the real deal.
> 
> My comments are based on the average guy here potentially wasting 160.00, and risking introducing beetles to their collection. To some guys here 160.00 is a lot of money. If thats the case, it makes no sense to risk it. You can spend 160.00 with a legit vendor and if there is a problem you can return them.


Fred,
I completely agree with you.
Guys like us, who have been around cigars for a long time can view a box, grab some cigars, see if the foot looks good, see the wrapper, see the cap, feel the body end to end and know if we will have something consisting of more than just sawdust.
Unfortunately, I recognize many others don't and will fall prey.
As I noted earlier, my uncle, who lives there, fell prey to his own people.



poker said:


> Then as in Cuba, I would be led to assume that the guy selling counterfit Cohibas could opt out as well and sell things other than fake Cohibas, as in jewelery made from local items, souveneers, etc.
> No?


Poker,
No doubt they can, but not all have the means to access the materials to create said items. where as in contrast, much of the population works in the tobacco industry in one form or another, from growing it all the way to rolling it, making it much simpler to steal to then in turn sell.
Thievery is an unfortunate outcome that has become perverse there.
One thing I have heard very often from relatives is that quite a bit of the cigars sold in the streets comes form tobacco stolen from the government.


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## Texan in Mexico (Oct 29, 2007)

I believe I can help out - PM sent blueface...


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## fsjonsey (May 23, 2008)

Blueface said:


> :r
> I will not go there.
> Will just say, go back in history and learn how of how Habanos, S.A. got to own all those brands that once belonged to independent businessmen.
> How they acquired them, it would be two faced to say some now can't counterfeit them.


Such is what happens when you impose Communism on a population of previously hard working, entrepreneurial people. Capitalism doesn't disappear, it simply goes under the radar. Many of these people work very hard, and get so little in return for it, so they turn to other means to make a living. If it means rolling and selling counterfeit cigars to tourists, then so be it. Selling Cigars may be a crime in Cuba, but there, almost any activity involving free enterprise among the citizenry is considered criminal in the eyes of the government, other than a few exceptions.


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

Fredster said:


> I'd be willing to bet a lot of money you would be much happier with a box of legit Boli PC's, Party Shorts, or Cohiba Siglo 1's than a 160.00 box of fakes.


:tpd:

That is true for sure.


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

LasciviousXXX said:


> Then by this same logic I should buy crack from the dealers on the corner who are just trying to survive and buy food for their kids.
> 
> Sorry my friend but this logic is flawed IMO and just a convenient excuse to talk about purchasing fakes.


Until the big companies are selling crack, then this would be true and not flawed.

Never buy counterfit crack, who knows what's in it. :2


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## Ozz1113 (Feb 13, 2008)

There are many areas where people love counterfits. Like purses & software.
A market for other counterfit goods can extend to another market like cigars (even if the demand isn't there (yet)).
Unfortunately, it's up to the authorities in power and most of the times nothing changes.


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

Ozz1113 said:


> A market for other counterfit goods can extend to another market like cigars (even if the demand isn't there (yet)).
> Unfortunately, it's up to the authorities in power and most of the times nothing changes.


Cuban cigar is the single most counterfitted item in the world.


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## Addiction (May 8, 2007)

Blueface said:


> Never said harmless.
> More like necessity.
> Earlier, someone said "crack".
> Well, in the US, a crack dealer can choose to work at McDonald's instead.
> ...


Blueface,
I agree with this sentiment, except I never went as far as to say people should be burned at the stake for counterfeiting. I've been blessed to have been both spent and flush in this life and I can promise you this: If my only choices were to steal or to starve then starve is not an option. I'm not going to begrudge a guy trying to make a buck in a crime that I think is mostly harmless, I just wouldn't personally support them in this particular endeavor.

In fact the only place I disagree with you in any sentiment is the idea of reparations to displaced Cubans. I don't support that concept in any way, and I don't understand how any American could given the irreparable harm we have inflicted on any number of cultures in this world.


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## Addiction (May 8, 2007)

mosesbotbol said:


> Cuban cigar is the single most counterfitted item in the world.


Given the percentage of the world that smokes, and then the even smaller percentage of those people that smoke cigars I find this doubtful. Especially given the incredible numbers of counterfitted pharmacuticals in third world countries.


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## DonnieW (Jul 2, 2008)

mosesbotbol said:


> Cuban cigar is the single most counterfitted item in the world.


Generally speaking, clothes take the top honors of most counterfeited items. Followed second by currency, and third, childrens toys. Believe it or not, tobacco products aren't even in the top 10 in North America.


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## Addiction (May 8, 2007)

DonnieW said:


> Generally speaking, clothes take the top honors of most counterfeited items. Followed second by currency, and third, childrens toys. Believe it or not, tobacco products aren't even in the top 10 in North America.


Yeah I think womens handbags might be higher on the list than cigars. I've only ever seen fake cubans when on vacation and even then not everytime. But Louies, Guccis, Rolexes, etc I see everywhere in the world for $3.


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## DonnieW (Jul 2, 2008)

Addiction said:


> Given the percentage of the world that smokes, and then the even smaller percentage of those people that smoke cigars I find this doubtful. Especially given the incredible numbers of counterfitted pharmacuticals in third world countries.


In defense of the previous post, perhaps in Euorpe things are different.

The top 5 for 2007:

Cigarettes 
CD & DVD
Cloths and accessories
Electrical equipement 
Medicines


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## Addiction (May 8, 2007)

DonnieW said:


> In defense of the previous post, perhaps in Euorpe things are different.
> 
> The top 5 for 2007:
> 
> ...


But none of those are cigars and I'd bet all of these things are counterfitted more than cigars (possibly not electrical equipment). In Africa there is a HUGE problem with counterfit meds. Same in Asia and latin america.


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## DonnieW (Jul 2, 2008)

Addiction said:


> Yeah I think womens handbags might be higher on the list than cigars. I've only ever seen fake cubans when on vacation and even then not everytime. But Louies, Guccis, Rolexes, etc I see everywhere in the world for $3.


I missed this post prior to my last one, I agree it is strange. That's why I looked up the rank in Europe. I don't have any metrics for 'cigarettes' such that I could break smokes from cigars - which might paint an interesting picture. For all I know it does include cigars?? I'll see what I can find.


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## DonnieW (Jul 2, 2008)

FWIW here are the 2007 top-ten for the USA:

Footwear 40%
Wearing Apparel 14%
Consumer Electronics 8%
Handbags/Wallets/Backpacks 7%
Watches/Parts 7%
Pharmaceuticals 6%
Computers/Hardware 5%
Media 4%
Sunglasses/Parts 2%
Headwear 1%


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## poker (Dec 11, 1997)

Holy crap. You mean my Reef flip-flops might be fake? Oh the nerve....

:r


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## DonnieW (Jul 2, 2008)

poker said:


> Holy crap. You mean my Reef flip-flops might be fake? Oh the nerve....
> 
> :r


And your Crocs.


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

DonnieW said:


> Generally speaking, clothes take the top honors of most counterfeited items. Followed second by currency, and third, childrens toys. Believe it or not, tobacco products aren't even in the top 10 in North America.


My data/factoid may be a couple of years old and now some kind of clothes item is now ahead of cuban cigar.

Cuban cigars are illegal in USA, so probably wouldn't make the list?

There's plenty of articles stating the % of Americans that have had counterfit Cuban Cigars... Broaden that to a world-wide scale.

The thing with Pharmaceuticals is that they are broad category of items, where Cuban Cigars are a narrow item.


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## poker (Dec 11, 1997)

DonnieW said:


> And your Crocs.


I dont have any Crocs. To me they are just butt ugly.


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## DonnieW (Jul 2, 2008)

mosesbotbol said:


> Cuban cigars are illegal in USA, so probably wouldn't make the list?


The list is actually a reflection of border seizures and local crime stats. But stats are often misleading. Perhaps when you isolate a single unique item, lets say a "Cohiba Esplendidos"... perhaps it does rank very high??

I have one of my summer students doing some digging for me. You've got me curious as to the state of counerfeit cubans.


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

DonnieW said:


> I have one of my summer students doing some digging for me. You've got me curious as to the state of counerfeit cubans.


I am using generalizations with my comment. Like Coca Cola is the most recognized brand, Ferrari is the most prized licensing trademark, and cuban cigars are the most counterfitted item...

Acuracy may not be 100%, but these are common sited statements...


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## Addiction (May 8, 2007)

mosesbotbol said:


> I am using generalizations with my comment. Like Coca Cola is the most recognized brand, Ferrari is the most prized licensing trademark, and cuban cigars are the most counterfitted item...
> 
> Acuracy may not be 100%, but these are common sited statements...


I'd agree it is used in a general way. I was just making the observation that this is nowhere near true. Even if you generously cited 15% of the worlds population as cigar smokers that still doesn't compare with the number of people who buy fake purses, jewelry, tennis shoes, etc. Heck just DVD's alone are an impact item (and I'd argue this is the most counterfitted item). You can find at least ten diferent news posts about different people who were caught with over 100,000 counterfit dvds. In asian countries there are 4-5 people selling counterfit dvds within a block of every hotel and market, sometimes the counterfits are available *BEFORE* a movie is even in theatrical release. There just isn't enough demand in cuban cigars for them to be high on the list of couterfitted items.


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

Addiction said:


> I'd agree it is used in a general way. I was just making the observation that this is nowhere near true. Even if you generously cited 15% of the worlds population as cigar smokers that still doesn't compare with the number of people who buy fake purses, jewelry, tennis shoes, etc.


DVD's are too broad of a category. Just like Cuban cigar vs. just "cigar". Sure, there are more DVD's be produced and counterfitted. Cuban cigar is a specific item.

I am not defending my position so much as providing some clarity in our generalities. Does clothes also include purses and shoes? Does shoes include sneakers... See where I am going?

In dollar amounts, other things are more profitable than cigars to fake, just ask Microsoft.


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## Addiction (May 8, 2007)

Moses I see your point but if DVD is too generic isn't Cuban Cigar too generic given that it reperesnets something like 225 different things? And part of my point is that fake cigars are important to us, but on the overall economy of the world they amount to pretty much a pimple on its rear. I'd be willing to bet there are more pairs of fake Nikes in the world than there are boxes of fake Cohibas.

/end threadjack

What was this thread about again?


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## DonnieW (Jul 2, 2008)

Addiction said:


> Moses I see your point but if DVD is too generic isn't Cuban Cigar too generic given that it reperesnets something like 225 different things? And part of my point is that fake cigars are important to us, but on the overall economy of the world they amount to pretty much a pimple on its rear. I'd be willing to bet there are more pairs of fake Nikes in the world than there are boxes of fake Cohibas.
> 
> /end threadjack
> 
> What was this thread about again?


This is actually interesting dialogue. :tu

Ironically, counterfeiting cigars (tobacco in general) has a fairly bad effect on the economy. I'm not singling this post out, just using it to highlight some REAL serious issues around cigar/cigarette counterfeiting. 

Consider this, the government taxes tobacco WAAAAY more than anything else, save and except booze and gas - so illegal smokes divert lots of tax dollars, tax dollars not found on DVD sales nor anything else in the top 10 lists.

In the 1990's a well known author followed around the bikers and mafia, documenting their business (at a high, relatively safe level). He observed something not even the police picked up on, the bikers and mafia slowly shifted some of their interest in selling coke and other vice drugs to selling cigarettes and cigars. Why? Well, its just as lucrative and no where near the penalty. Now you have organized crime selling seemingly legitimate products. That means they move into stores and online business - people you and I would be dealing with. I don't go looking for coke, nor would I want to associate anyone selling it - but guess what, illegal proprietors are everywhere now, selling their fake smokes. Illegal/counterfeit smokes have allowed organized crime to seed that much deeper. 

The Canadian government has some lofty estimates of 80-90% of all cigars in Canada being fake. Given the tax on that, we're talking tens of millions of tax dollars being lost (hundreds of millions for cigarettes) - assuming the smokes are being sold illegitimately. Our tax from smokes is directly applied to our health care system among other federal systems.

Counterfeit cigars have a profound impact, in my opinion.


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## Addiction (May 8, 2007)

DonnieW said:


> This is actually interesting dialogue. :tu
> 
> .....
> 
> Counterfeit cigars have a profound impact, in my opinion.


OK I'll continue the thread jacking. Its just not probable that 90% of the cigars in Canada can be fake. It means that only 10% of cigar smokers in Canada buy at legitamate sources and I simply can't cotton to that. I'd suspect its the same as it is in American communities, that there are far more shoppers walking into real stores and buying goods than standing in back alleys or looking at shady internet sites.

As a kid I "allegedly" hustled cigerettes and I can tell you supposedly there is a lot of money in that trade. I'd also ponder a guess that most illegal cigerettes are sold to actual stores, and those cigerettes are then sold to you from said store. So as far as cigs are concerned most of those the tax is still collected. And 90% of the time those stores don't know they are buying illegal cigerettes or don't care, they think they are buying seconds if you will. Also most of that stuff is stuff that fell of a truck, not counterfits. If you've bought cigerettes on a major highway outside of a major city lots of those came from somewhere other than the original seller.

The other point I'd argue is the tax impact. To just mention that tobacco products are heavily taxed only tells part of the story right? I mean if you buy a box of $400 cigars tax free and I buy a $25,000 watch tax free I'm pretty sure the watch has the higher tax impact.


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

Addiction said:


> The other point I'd argue is the tax impact. To just mention that tobacco products are heavily taxed only tells part of the story right? I mean if you buy a box of $400 cigars tax free and I buy a $25,000 watch tax free I'm pretty sure the watch has the higher tax impact.


The cigars are more taxed, as someone buys a fake box cigars $400, no buys a fake watch for 25K. They may buy a watch that if real was 25K, but paid $100 for it.

How many people you know are buying 25K watches? Certainly not more than 100 people you know personally...


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## DonnieW (Jul 2, 2008)

Addiction said:


> OK I'll continue the thread jacking. Its just not probable that 90% of the cigars in Canada can be fake. It means that only 10% of cigar smokers in Canada buy at legitamate sources and I simply can't cotton to that. I'd suspect its the same as it is in American communities, that there are far more shoppers walking into real stores and buying goods than standing in back alleys or looking at shady internet sites.


Well there is some missing logic... we can't assume just because a cigar is counterfeit its not sold in a legitimate store, right? I'll stick my foot in my mouth and say, most counterfeit goods are sold in seemingly legit stores. I don't want to confuse 'black market' with counterfeit.

For the longest time in Canada, ALL Cuban cigars came through one man and one man only - Abel Ortego. This is the ONE guy who controls the entire Cuban cigar market here. They've consistently found counterfeit cigars in Candian stores, very well know legit stores. So we know, despite single-handed control of the Cuban cigar market here (btw Canadians only smoke Habanos), counterfeits still make there way into the legit stores. I don't buy the 80-90% stat, based on gut more than anything, but I suspect there is a large portion of fakes in our stores.

Several years ago Ortego estimated that 75-85% of what he sells are matched with fakes.


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## krisko (Jul 28, 2007)

Are CCs really that popular in Canada? I'm surprised there isn't some non-cuban market there. Hell, I was in Germany at a B&M and I would venture to say 40% of the smokes for sale were non-cuban.

Back to these cigars, I wouldn't spend a nickel on them. I've smoked CCs that I knew were not and it's generally not very enjoyable. As some have alluded to, you really have no idea what you are smoking. It may not even be tobacco for pete's sake.


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## Addiction (May 8, 2007)

mosesbotbol said:


> The cigars are more taxed, as someone buys a fake box cigars $400, no buys a fake watch for 25K. They may buy a watch that if real was 25K, but paid $100 for it.
> 
> *How many people you know are buying 25K watches? Certainly not more than 100 people you know personally..*.


I' agree with the bold, but I know OF people who do it. I actually was on a couple of watch forums for a bit before I saw that hobby was completely out of hand, especially since I don't actually wear or display a single watch that I own lol.


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## poker (Dec 11, 1997)

krisko said:


> Are CCs really that popular in Canada? I'm surprised there isn't some non-cuban market there. Hell, I was in Germany at a B&M and I would venture to say 40% of the smokes for sale were non-cuban.
> 
> Back to these cigars, I wouldn't spend a nickel on them. I've smoked CCs that I knew were not and it's generally not very enjoyable. As some have alluded to, you really have no idea what you are smoking. *It may not even be tobacco for pete's sake*.


Yeah theres nothing quite like buying a fake cohiba or montecristo and actually be smoking page 16 of the National Inquirer.:ss


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## ResIpsa (Mar 8, 2006)

I heard they put the wacky weed instead of tobacco in cuban cigars....


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## Snake Hips (May 30, 2008)

ResIpsa said:


> I heard they put the wacky weed instead of tobacco in cuban cigars....


It's Canada, of course they do :w

People do that here, to NC cigars. A guy I know bought a nice cigar from my local shop, and he tried to stuff it with marijuana, but it fell apart because he didn't realize "they're wrapped in an actual tobacco leaf."


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## Cigary (Oct 19, 2007)

I would be very careful and before you pull the tripper read this article on how to spot fake Cohibas as it has been very educational to me many times.
http://www.aficionado-a-havanas.com/cgi-bin/webc.cgi/spotafake.html


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