# Wineador with cigars in cellophane - WHY?



## SanFranFlyFish (Apr 26, 2014)

Maybe I'm missing something. I've always used a desktop all-wood humidor. Now I'm looking at all these wineadors holding cigars still in their cellophane wrappers.

I thought the entire point of having cigars in a temperature and humidity controlled environment was to have the cigars properly humidified (inside/outside and all through the cigar) to 65-70 rH. How does this occur when the cigars are in cellophane? Or in Cellophane inside their original box?

This is not a troll. I want to be educated on this matter.


----------



## Laynard (Oct 10, 2013)

There are lots of threads that explain that cellophane is pourous enough for humidity exchange. The benefit of a wineador is a better temperature and humidity seal which many wood humidors do not have, nor do the original boxes seal so there is plenty of air exchange for aging. Hope this helps and :welcome:


----------



## jp1979 (Sep 12, 2013)

Does your B&M take all of their cigars out of the cello? I used to take them all out now I just stick them in there however they come cello or no cello.


----------



## SanFranFlyFish (Apr 26, 2014)

Can't say I always trust how a B&M handles their merchandise. Three of my favorite wine shops have their bottles upright and at room temperature, yet no self-respecting wine afficianado stores his wines that way.


----------



## jp1979 (Sep 12, 2013)

You won't notice a difference with it on or off. I'm no wine expert but I doubt a bottle of wine store upright for a month is going to have any ill effect on the bottle.


----------



## Fuzzy (Jun 19, 2011)

Cello on! helps protect the cigar while rumaging to find the one to smoke.


----------



## smknjoecool (Oct 11, 2013)

Cellophane is not designed to be gas permeable. The idea that that cellophane allows a cigar to "breath" is not really correct. Yes, over a long period of time the internal and external ambient conditions will reach equilibrium, but that can take several months if not a year or more. 

Personally, I take the cello off and save a few for when taking one-for-the-road.


----------



## SeanTheEvans (Dec 13, 2013)

smknjoecool said:


> Cellophane is not designed to be gas permeable. The idea that that cellophane allows a cigar to "breath" is not really correct. Yes, over a long period of time the internal and external ambient conditions will reach equilibrium, but that can take several months if not a year or more.
> 
> Personally, I take the cello off and save a few for when taking one-for-the-road.


If that were the case, you could carry a cigar around in only cello for weeks on end and it would still be fresh when you took it out to smoke, right?


----------



## smknjoecool (Oct 11, 2013)

If it were properly sealed I don't see why not. I've left cigars in the cello in a desk drawer and they were okay a month later.


----------



## Laynard (Oct 10, 2013)

opcorn:


----------



## smknjoecool (Oct 11, 2013)

It also depends on your ambient RH which is in the 60s around here in-doors.


----------



## smknjoecool (Oct 11, 2013)

In the desert It may dry out in a few days.

Edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellophane

It's designed to keep air and liquids out.


----------



## Laynard (Oct 10, 2013)

smknjoecool said:


> It also depends on your ambient RH which is in the 60s around here in-doors.


This is why there is no "one size fits all" in this hobby...and why the exchange of opinions and preferences is important. To the OP, do what makes you sleep at night. For me, I like leaving the cellophane on (if the sticks comes with it on) and in their boxes if I have room. If you like them to be more exposed to the elements, take it off. The humidity in the cellophane should be right before I even get them anyways.


----------



## Drez_ (Jan 30, 2014)

smknjoecool said:


> If it were properly sealed I don't see why not. I've left cigars in the cello in a desk drawer and they were okay a month later.


The problem is, I've never seen cellophane on any of my cigars sealed. Folding them over and putting a sticker to hold it doesn't actually seal the cello. Granted, it may take slightly longer to regulate the entire cigar to a certain RH but I really doubt it does even that much.

Leaving yours in a drawer and smoking them a month later doesn't play to the fact that the cello holds in/out humidity, but that your humidity inside your house is within the good range to store cigars.

Air will enter the open end of the cellophane, even if it is folded and stickered at a faster rate than the cigar can absorb. Even if the cellophane itself isn't permeable, so it shouldn't play much of a factor in the cigar regulating to your humidor/wine cooler RH.


----------



## smknjoecool (Oct 11, 2013)

I agree Layne. And I'm not trying to be a "troll" either. It's just that a lot of people seem to think that the cello allows for "breathing" almost as well as a naked cigar and that's just not true. It will allow air to permeate, but at a much slower rate than if you have the cello removed.


----------



## jp1979 (Sep 12, 2013)

smknjoecool said:


> I agree Layne. And I'm not trying to be a "troll" either. It's just that a lot of people seem to think that the cello allows for "breathing" almost as well as a naked cigar and that's just not true. It will allow air to permeate, but at a much slower rate than if you have the cello removed.


Not a single person that replied to this thread said that "a cigar in a cellophane breathes as well as a naked cigar".


----------



## smknjoecool (Oct 11, 2013)

jp1979 said:


> Not a single person that replied to this thread said that "a cigar in a cellophane breathes as well as a naked cigar".


Nobody said that someone did make that statement.


----------



## Fid (Apr 10, 2014)

After reading the Wikipedia link posted by @smknjoecool, I have to wonder if the "cellophane" on cigars is, in fact, cellophane. The reason being that the term has been genericized over the decades and a lot of what we call cellophane is not cellophane. Do we actually know what we are talking about when we say "cellophane"? It may blow all of the arguments for and against out of the water. The article does specifically state that cellophane cigar wrappers are used because of their moisture permeability and ability to breathe, though. I guess we have to trust that the cigar manufacturers are using bona fide cellophane.

Also, I like @Fuzzy 's reason for leaving it on.


----------



## jp1979 (Sep 12, 2013)

smknjoecool said:


> Nobody said that someone did make that statement.


Then what was the point of your reply with Layne's quote?


----------



## smknjoecool (Oct 11, 2013)

I didn't quote Layne. 

Jeff, you are right. We don't really know the chemical composition and could all be way off! :shock:


----------



## McMeggieG (Feb 1, 2014)

I keep the cello on because they get handled. I can't guarantee anyone looking through my cigars to smoke something has washed their hands first.

Also, taking the cigar out the the cello when I go to smoke it, is like opening a little present to myself. I like the ritual.


----------



## C.Scott (Mar 28, 2014)

My opinion is exactly that - an opinion... But I will say that I've put a lot of thought into this: Plastic (Cellophane) wrappers have one primary purpose, which is to act as a buffer between the ambient conditions and the cigar. Now, the cigar itself is also a buffer, in that it does not react instantly to external environment changes. It takes up 10-60 minutes for it's temperature to equalize with ambient temperature. For humidity, the wrapper will equalize within 1 day, while the filler will take several days. The differential between wrapper RH/temp and filler RH/temp is what causes the wrapper to split, that is, if the wrapper expands or contracts faster than the filler. That said, YES, it DOES take a while for the cigar, as a whole, to reach equilibrium with ambient conditions.

However, the wrapper reaches equilibrium VERY quickly (less than an hour, and in some cases maybe as quickly as a couple of minutes), so if the differential is significant enough, you will end up with split wrappers rather quickly. This is where "buffers" come into play. Cellophane and cigar boxes both act as a buffer to slow down the effects of the contents equalizing with the ambient conditions. If your RH swings wildly between, say, 30% and 80% and back to 30% in the course of 10 minutes (which can happen when you open your wineador), your cigars won't notice. They will see, at most, a swing of +/- 1% RH in that same hour, and thus the wrappers are happy.

In short, buffers (ie, cello/boxes) allow you to open and close your wineador as often as you like, with little or no consequences. If your concern is that the cello does not allow the cigar to breath, just read what another post pointed out quite well - leave a cigar out in just it's cello wrapper, and see how long it takes to dry out. In most cases, it won't take very long.


----------



## huskers (Oct 2, 2012)

Cello protects a cigar from damage...........that is my #1 reason for leaving it on.

#2 reason is that if you do happen to have any large fluctuations in RH and you don't catch it right away, the cello makes the changes less detrimental to your cigars as it takes longer for a cigar in cello to be affected.

AND

#3 reason that might all be in my head is that I feel a cigar kept in cellophane retains it's flavors longer.

I've had identical cigars that were the same age have much more flavor being stored in cello than it's twin that was resting naked.


----------



## brimy623 (May 25, 2013)

One thing that is posted elsewhere if you search about cello on or off, I'll see if I can find it, is that a lot of our more experienced fellow Puffers suggest trimming the cello to the end of the cigar.

My take on it is that by trimming the cello back you allow the rH an avenue to reach the cigar and allow the cigar the "breathe", yet still have some "protection" for handling them.


----------



## ShaneG (Apr 9, 2014)

Thus far mine go in however they are shipped. This is, just the beginning for me however, and the first time I have had more than a two week supply at any time, so it hasn't really been that relevant.


----------



## Indy-hp (Feb 22, 2014)

Cellophane is permeable to water vapor according to Wikipedia, that is why it is used for cigars, but it makes logical sense that the cello would slow down the transfer of water vapor. 

How much the cello slows this transfer is a good question, and I've never seen any knowledge-based facts on this, just unsupported claims from those who may or may not really know.

Personally, I leave the cellos on to protect the wrappers until I'm ready to smoke them.


----------



## smknjoecool (Oct 11, 2013)

Admittedly, Wikipedia was not the best example to use, but it was the easiest. Any one of us "experts" can change the info on that page. The first sentence or two says it's supposed to keep air and water out...then, towards the bottom they say the opposite in regard to cigars.


----------



## SeanTheEvans (Dec 13, 2013)

smknjoecool said:


> Admittedly, Wikipedia was not the best example to use, but it was the easiest. Any one of us "experts" can change the info on that page. The first sentence or two says it's supposed to keep air and water out...then, towards the bottom they say the opposite in regard to cigars.


The science has been explained in previous threads debating cello on or off, but it is most definitely air/moisture permeable, to the point that if you put a cigar in celllo (even if you melt the end closed so that it is "sealed"), if the humidity of the environment is detrimental to cigars, say 30%?, then the cigar will not be protected by that cello for an entire day, and will become dried out and crappy. This would lead me to believe that it doesn't slow adjustment by very much. I can't imagine it to be detrimental, considering how many brands ship their cigars in cello, how many B&Ms store it in cello, and how many FOGs here keep the cello on.

I keep mine on for physical protection, as Maggie said, and to help buffer sudden shifts (when I pick out cigars, or just open and stare at them) of RH, as Josh mentioned.

There have been many debates about aging cigars in cello, and the effect, but since there is so little hard science on aging even, it's ludicrous to hope for strong hard facts when it comes to "aging with cello on vs off". Thus, word-of-mouth and anecdotal stories will have to suffice. This is similar to the "do cigars age better at 70/70 or 65/65?" question. It's all going to be opinion, as as we can see from Wiki, all opinions don't come to a general consensus on this one.

So do what you wish, but it won't really hurt or help either way, any more than you really "believe" it helps or hurts you.


----------



## smknjoecool (Oct 11, 2013)

My main point is that if it's really cellophane (which we can only assume) then it's semi-permeable not permeable. Permeable suggests that air and moisture are easily passed through the membrane at an almost unrestricted rate. Semi-permeable means that it allows air and moisture through, but at a substantially restricted rate. Another reason that cellophane on cigars may seem to be "breathable" (unrestricted) is because the ends are not usually sealed as someone else pointed out. 

To say that cellophane breaths or is gas-permeable is to say that cellophane allows (almost) unrestricted air flow. In reality cellophane is semi-permeable or semi-breathable. It allows air through, but at a very restricted rate. Add the fact that most cellophane wrappers aren't sealed and you can have a pretty significant amount of airflow as opposed to a sealed cellophane wrapper.


----------



## SeanTheEvans (Dec 13, 2013)

smknjoecool said:


> My main point is that if it's really cellophane (which we can only assume) then it's semi-permeable not permeable. Permeable suggests that air and moisture are easily passed through the membrane at an almost unrestricted rate. Semi-permeable means that it allows air and moisture through, but at a substantially restricted rate. Another reason that cellophane on cigars may seem to be "breathable" (unrestricted) is because the ends are not usually sealed as someone else pointed out.
> 
> To say that cellophane breaths or is gas-permeable is to say that cellophane allows (almost) unrestricted air flow. In reality cellophane is semi-permeable or semi-breathable. It allows air through, but at a very restricted rate. Add the fact that most cellophane wrappers aren't sealed and you can have a pretty significant amount of airflow as opposed to a sealed cellophane wrapper.


I believe your definitions of permeable and semi-permeable *may* be at fault here....

Permeable: Capable of being passed through or permeated, especially by liquids or gases.

Semi-Permeable: 1. Partially permeable.
2. Allowing passage of certain, especially small, molecules or ions but acting as a barrier to others. Used of biological and synthetic membranes.

Impermeable: Relating to a material through which substances, such as liquids or gases, cannot pass. Some substances, such as some types of contact lenses, are permeable to gas but impermeable to liquid.

Permeable & Semipermeable are actually listed with each other in a Thesaurus, so they can be used interchangeably at times. Semi-permeability does not necessarily indicate any restriction on the _rate _at which objects pass through, only that some can and others cannot (usually due to size, but not always).

So cellophane *is* both permeable _and_ semipermeable. It is *not* impermeable, which _would _create a problem.


----------



## smknjoecool (Oct 11, 2013)

My descriptions are accurate. Cellophane is not considered permeable. It is considered a semi-permeable material.


----------



## jp1979 (Sep 12, 2013)

:deadhorse:


----------



## smknjoecool (Oct 11, 2013)

...and some cellophane is impermeable. None of it is permeable.


----------



## purepoker (Sep 15, 2011)

smknjoecool said:


> ...and some cellophane is impermeable. None of it is permeable.


Are you permeable, semi permeable, or impermeable?


----------



## smknjoecool (Oct 11, 2013)

Mostly semi-permeable. Thanks for asking!


----------



## kcviper (Mar 15, 2014)

If it comes with cello, I leave it on and trim the end even with the foot. Helps protect the cigar and does provide some additional breathing. Seems to work well.


----------



## TJB (Dec 10, 2012)

If they came in cello they stay in cello if they come naked they stay naked. I don't trim cello because I don't see the benefit of exposing the inside of the cigar to the outside before the wrapper. I think keeping the cigar in the cello protects the cigars oils from handling and helps prevent the spread of mold should an exposed cigar carry it. For me it keeps the flavors in the cigar longer as well and slows down aging a bit.


----------



## Ricardo- (Feb 26, 2014)

smknjoecool said:


> Admittedly, Wikipedia was not the best example to use, but it was the easiest. Any one of us "experts" can change the info on that page. The first sentence or two says it's supposed to keep air and water out...then, towards the bottom they say the opposite in regard to cigars.


_"Cellophane is a thin, transparent sheet made of regenerated cellulose. Its *low permeability* to air, oils, greases, bacteria and water....."_

Where does wikipedia say that cellophane keeps air and water out?


----------



## smknjoecool (Oct 11, 2013)

You just quoted it. Any lower and it would be completely impermeable.


----------



## Ricardo- (Feb 26, 2014)

smknjoecool said:


> You just quoted it. Any lower and it would be completely impermeable.


Yeah, and if I were less republican I'd be a democrat.

But ok. It looks like you just want to win.


----------



## Fuzzy (Jun 19, 2011)

Ricardo- said:


> Yeah, and if I were less republican I'd be a democrat.


Or,,, an Independant. Funny!


----------



## TJB (Dec 10, 2012)

smknjoecool said:


> You just quoted it. Any lower and it would be completely impermeable.


It just says low, it doesn't give a quantitative term. In other words we don't know what they really mean about "low." There's no scaling. Low for me could be high for you without a point of reference. I think if this thread sinks any lower it will hit a new low.


----------



## Tgs679 (Mar 2, 2014)

Untreated cellophane is semi-permeable, and is used in several scientific procedures to filter and separate compounds in solution. Moisture-proof cellophane, treated with a coating of water-resistant lacquer, has a very low diffusion rate, allowing only 270 mg of water vapor per square meter per hour to pass through at temperatures of 100 degrees Fahrenheit. The material first gained popularity as a wrapping to moisture-proof cigarettes and cigars. It is also an effective barrier against microorganisms.

Read more: The Properties of Cellophane | eHow


----------



## C.Scott (Mar 28, 2014)

Tgs679 said:


> It is also an effective barrier against microorganisms.


Which is also another fantastic reason to leave the cello wrapper on your cigars that have them. If a cigar develops mold, it will reduce the chances of it spreading to another cigar, and same thing if your humidor/humidifier develops mold. I had a crappy humidifier in the lid of my humidor that ended up dripping water on all my cigars on the top shelf. Ruined a handful of unwrapped cigars, but the the ones in the cello were fine.

Of course, once you've gained some good experience with keeping a humidor healthy, the potential for mold is no longer a concern.

As far as aging cigars in cello, I (and probably everyone else) have no scientific evidence suggesting that cello helps or hurts it, but I will say that I bought a box of cigars last year that tasted way too young at the time (lots of ammonia flavor), and I let them sit in my humidor for a year in their cello wrappers, then I tried one the other day and found that it mellowed out considerably, with no more ammonia flavor. The cello might have slowed the aging (curing?) process by some amount, but it certainly didn't halt it.

One final reason that I leave most of my cello wrappers on is that I have some very expensive cigars in the same humidor as some very cheap ones, and cigar flavors tend to "marry" after a while. I don't want my crappy golf/fishing cigars imparting very much flavor into my expensive celebration cigars if I can avoid it. This, obviously, would not be an issue if I kept my cheap cigars in a different humidor, but I enjoy the fact that I only have to maintain 1 humidor.

The bottom line is, there seems to be no scientific basis for leaving cello on or off, so just do whatever you feel comfortable with.


----------



## fdfirebiz (Sep 30, 2012)

After checking around on the web about cello on off whatever , on cigar affectionato magazine website a lot of experts say they cut off the cello at the foot even with the cigar end . I've been doing that for over 2 yrs now humidity is spot on all my smokes burn great never any issues. I have a new air 280e Winador I customized With over 200 sticks in there. So when I get cigars delivered to my home I first cut the cello off at the foot and tuck those babies in with the rest and enjoy a great smoke boys. This way the humidity still gets in from the foot of the cigar. Hope this helps.


----------



## SanFranFlyFish (Apr 26, 2014)

Guys, Thanks for all the good info.


----------



## Joe Bonzo (Dec 20, 2013)

Very interesting thread with some good information. Although I'm a few days late to the discussion, I'd simply like to add that while cellophane may be next-to impermeable to air and water in liquid form, it is permeable to water in its gaseous state--water vapor--which is what we cigar smokers are concerned with. This means that while cellophane will protect your cigars from a lot of things, humidity transfer is not one of them. So, quite simply, all other reasons aside, cellophane on or off will not affect the moisture levels of your cigars.


----------



## scrouds (Mar 29, 2014)

I pull the cello off, then stack the sticks between cedar. I love some cedar.


----------



## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

SanFranFlyFish said:


> Maybe I'm missing something. I've always used a desktop all-wood humidor. Now I'm looking at all these wineadors holding cigars still in their cellophane wrappers.
> 
> I thought the entire point of having cigars in a temperature and humidity controlled environment was to have the cigars properly humidified (inside/outside and all through the cigar) to 65-70 rH. How does this occur when the cigars are in cellophane? Or in Cellophane inside their original box?
> 
> This is not a troll. I want to be educated on this matter.


Hey Graig
No offense meant here but!
There are GOD only knows how many Cello on Cello off threads.
Since no one has taken the time to educate you on how a forum really works.
And once again no offense meant to any of the great brothers and sisters of puff.
I'll take a stab at it.
There is a search function, but my dear fellow it only works if one chooses to use it.
I hope this little interaction has proven itself worthy in your quest for higher education.


----------



## SanFranFlyFish (Apr 26, 2014)

So Tiny,

No offense meant here, but after a week, and after dozens of other people chimed in with useful information, you decided that you needed to chime in with snarky comments because I asked a question about "CELLOPHANE and WINEADORS", not just about CELLOPHANE. Thank you for your help in "educating" me. Where were you in 1977 when I built my first computer, or in 1980 when I was writing printer-driver routines in assembly language, or in 1993 when I was doing complex Boolean searches on Unix-based relational databases, or in 1994 when I built my first website? I might have been in greater need of assistance then. Oh Wait! I didn't need help doing that. I've used "forums" since they were called BBS.


BTW, it's interesting that you just smoked "Cuban Twang". I asssume that that's a display of your sense of humor, inasmuch as no lesser a cigar authority than Gregory Mottola, associate editor of Cigar Afficianado says, "Cuban twang is nothing more than too much acidity in the tobacco. It is connotatively referred to as "aspereza" in Spanish—anything harsh or unrefined. Comes from cigars rushed to the market and is generally considered a negative trait."


----------



## Shemp75 (May 26, 2012)

Oh, no he didn't!


----------



## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

SanFranFlyFish said:


> So Tiny,
> 
> No offense meant here, but after a week, and after dozens of other people chimed in with useful information, you decided that you needed to chime in with snarky comments because I asked a question about "CELLOPHANE and WINEADORS", not just about CELLOPHANE. Thank you for your help in "educating" me. Where were you in 1977 when I built my first computer, or in 1980 when I was writing printer-driver routines in assembly language, or in 1993 when I was doing complex Boolean searches on Unix-based relational databases, or in 1994 when I built my first website? I might have been in greater need of assistance then. Oh Wait! I didn't need help doing that. I've used "forums" since they were called BBS.
> 
> BTW, it's interesting that you just smoked "Cuban Twang". I asssume that that's a display of your sense of humor, inasmuch as no lesser a cigar authority than Gregory Mottola, associate editor of Cigar Afficianado says, "Cuban twang is nothing more than too much acidity in the tobacco. It is connotatively referred to as "aspereza" in Spanish-anything harsh or unrefined. Comes from cigars rushed to the market and is generally considered a negative trait."


I remain unconvinced your profile says you have been smoking cigars for 46 years! Your last cigar smoked is a Montie #2 from 1999 a cigar i would have a hard time finding.
In 46 years you have learned nothing and start these redundant threads about cellophane and wineadoors.????????? You ask questions of members you should be asking Forest the man who manufactures drawers for them. You have the ability to obtain cigars that are illegal in the states. But have no basic cigar knowledge. I find this very odd, Many P.M me about your trolling. So i sat back and gave you the rope. I only intervened after you had hung yourself from the neck in-till dead. My response was only to let you know we are not as dumb as you think we are. Enjoy the forum i fear your tenure will be a short one. After all the cat is out of the bag now. Can hardly wait to see your next exciting thread. Oh and the name is Tony but you know that already. No one has called you any names but you found it easy to cast the first stone. You can build computers from scratch Misspell peoples name to suit you agenda but can't read rules or use a search function. Name calling is against the rules here you see we are a family here. Enjoy your stay here Think PINK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
OPPSssssssssssss there it is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## dj1340 (Mar 30, 2009)

Gentlemen,

Lets keep this on topic please. Issues with another member should be handled via PM. No need to go down the "I know more than you" road.
As has been mentioned, there are several threads that discuss cellophane and it has been covered about as much as any other topic. If
anyone wants to know more about these threads the search function is very helpful as it goes back a long ways to threads most of us have
forgotten.

So with that said, keep posts respectful and take any personal issues to PM.


----------



## SanFranFlyFish (Apr 26, 2014)

I would like to thank Brooklyn Tony for his warm and friendly welcome to the Puff community.


----------



## Tobias Lutz (Feb 18, 2013)

SanFranFlyFish said:


> I would like to thank Brooklyn Tony for his warm and friendly welcome to the Puff community.


Craig, even if you have a spat with someone, passive-aggressive sarcasm is no better than outright name calling. Like Don said, have all the fun you want via PM, but hashing this stuff out in open forum is unnecessary. It looks like you've actually gotten a lot of good info via posts and some links, so just let it go and enjoy a cigar.

:welcome:


----------



## SanFranFlyFish (Apr 26, 2014)

I have gotten a lot of good info from folks on the threads I posted, as well as on other threads that I read in the past week since "discovering" Puff. I sincerely thank the members of this community for sharing their knowledge and experience.

BTW, I didn't mean to be passive.


----------



## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

Tobias Lutz said:


> Craig, even if you have a spat with someone, passive-aggressive sarcasm is no better than outright name calling. Like Don said, have all the fun you want via PM, but hashing this stuff out in open forum is unnecessary. It looks like you've actually gotten a lot of good info via posts and some links, so just let it go and enjoy a cigar.
> 
> :welcome:


Indeed, such business has no business being conducted in open forum. It's a good thing that DJ happened on the scene before I did, or things would have gone a whole lot differently.

As redundant and oft-annoying as cellophane questions are and can be, we are not an archive, or cigar information museum. We are a DISCUSSION FORUM and, as such, there are no questions related to our sport, which are off-limits, or beneath us to answer in a respectful manner. If someone doesn't like someone's sincere question, feel free to address it in PM, or refer it for moderation. While we are indeed a "family" here, we strive NOT to be a dysfunctional one.

Keep it civil, or keep it PRIVATE. 
BOTH would be my preference.


----------

