# Vino Trays & Drawers



## WaxingMoon (Aug 13, 2009)

Understanding there is a demand for vino trays & drawers - and also understanding that I am pretty well tasked out (at the moment) with humidors. I want to throw this out there for ya'all....

I participate in a couple of woodworking forums, much like this forum, but members are all skilled woodworkers throughout the country. Many of which have no idea what a humidor is or does - but are perfectly capable of providing the trays & drawers that are in huge demand.

I am willing to be a conduit for this and "farm out" so to speak - any requests that come my way. If ya'all are willing and have the need.

I guess my question is.... do ya'all think this is a good idea?

Do ya'all want me to gather a "pool" of woodworkers to do this?

Let me know what you think.... I'm sure we can pull this thing together and get everybody what they need....


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## ekengland07 (May 20, 2009)

I'd definitely like to know what's available and prices. It seems like all the trays/drawers are one size only and I wish that wasn't the case. I'd much rather have some options and be curious what they charge.

I guess what I'm saying is yes, I'd like you to do that. Thank you!


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## WaxingMoon (Aug 13, 2009)

Already have 3 lined up.... One in NJ, One in MD and the other in CA.
Semi-Retired cabinetmakers, ready-willing & able..... Might be on to something here.... op2:


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## jbrown287 (Aug 18, 2010)

Would they do the edgestar also?


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## WaxingMoon (Aug 13, 2009)

jbrown287 said:


> Would they do the edgestar also?


Certainly..... It's all wide open.


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## jbrown287 (Aug 18, 2010)

I'd be interested. Like to find out prices.


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## Batista30 (Sep 13, 2010)

Ed, I definitely think it's a good idea for those requiring trays and drawers. Like you said, they don't need to know what a humidor is to be able to make these products especially if the price point is good!


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## rudeJARHEAD (Jul 12, 2009)

Ed, I would definately would be interested in a set of shelves for my edgestar. The metals work OK but the cedar look so much better.


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## Athion (Jul 17, 2010)

Ed, that's a fantastic idea!  

I would certainly be interested!


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## WaxingMoon (Aug 13, 2009)

I have been getting an overwhelming response from woodworkers interested in taking on these projects.... Again, most are retired folks who have been woodworking 40 plus years and are looking for something like this to do....

So...with that being said - If I can not accommodate any of the requests that I receive - I'd be more than happy connecting you up with a skilled woodworker that you can work with, one on one to get what you need.

I've directed them all to the "other guy's" site to look at pricing, etc... and all agree that they can either meet or beat the prices. 

So...with that being said - I be more than happy to facilitate these kind of requests for those who have interest.

I, myself.... will not have time in my schedule to work with trays and shelves probably through the end of January....

I am still interested in doing these, but...as stated, my humidors are my priority at the moment, especially with Christmas right around the corner...

Thanks for the feedback....


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## Mutombo (Aug 3, 2010)

Way to go Ed, awesome idea to help everyone here out!


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## WaxingMoon (Aug 13, 2009)

I already put one BOTL in touch with a fellow woodworker who is out in California.... late yesterday afternoon.... Here is what he's come up with already and he's going to start the build on Monday.


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## Athion (Jul 17, 2010)

Those look pretty perfect to me... whats he charging on those? and does he have any idea what the time to build will be?


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## WaxingMoon (Aug 13, 2009)

Athion said:


> Those look pretty perfect to me... whats he charging on those? and does he have any idea what the time to build will be?


He's starting a build on Monday - PM me your email address and I'll put you in touch with him. Not sure what he's charging, but, I told him what the norm is... and he was good with that...


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## jbrown287 (Aug 18, 2010)

Mark and I have just came to an agreement. I can not wait. The pics that are shown is what I will be receiveng. He is saying approx. a week or so. That is for all SC. He can do exotics and hardwoods as well. Thanks Ed, I really appreciate it.


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## jbrown287 (Aug 18, 2010)

Put my deposit in this morning and had an email when I got up saying he would start on them today. I absolutely can't wait to get this stuff in and finally finish my edgestar.


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## Athion (Jul 17, 2010)

I spoke with Mark as well, and ordered some stuff... I did tell him that if he continues with a 1 week build time he will be bombarded with orders LOL  

I CANT WAIT!!  Thanks SO much Ed for setting this up!


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## Lopez (Mar 14, 2006)

Great idea - what a great service.


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## Son Of Thor (Apr 14, 2010)

Bumping this to see how it was working out for other people. 

I exchanged a couple emails with Mark and then never heard from him again. I got him the dimensions and he was going to get me a price, but never heard back from him.


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## jbrown287 (Aug 18, 2010)

I last spoke with him about 2 weeks ago and he said he had the flu. I emailed again on the 25th and still no response. I do believe the week build time he first gave me has went out the window. This may be the lesson learned for using gift option on PP!! Sure hope it turns out better than I think it's going to.


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## WaxingMoon (Aug 13, 2009)

I have no excuses for Mark and what's going on with him. I have communicated with him and he said that he's back on his feet and going after it....

I will say, that if any of ya'all don't get resolution, I will unscrew this mess and get ya taken care of.....

Just tried to find a solution to the problem at hand.... I guess it's better to just do what I can do... which will be more and more in the near future.


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## Athion (Jul 17, 2010)

I ordered 2 trays and 3 shelves, from Mark, for my Vino on the 3rd... 

I had pretty good response from Mark at first, then it got really spotty (and he told me he had the evil flu as well, so Im choosing to believe him).... 

However the ship date keeps getting moved to "Next week" and here we are on the 28th and I haven't heard anything from him this week (last email (which was a response to my email) was on the 24th. Where he said he would try and get my order out "Next week"... Still early in the week though, Im not giving up hope  

Anyway, stuff happens, so Im not super annoyed yet, but ... well, I just hope the stuff gets sent out this week  

Ed: I appreciate your concern and willingness to help, but honestly I don't blame you at all for the situation. You were pretty clear that this was a guy you met on another forum, not a subcontractor


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## foxracer72 (Nov 23, 2010)

Ed very cool of you trying to help us out:tu. BTW how long is your wait right now?

i recently purchased a 28 vinotemp and am desperately seeking shelves so i can get this thing going. im new to this and i have been going a little nuts lately at some of those evil sights. anyway i don't own a humidor so everything is in a cooler and the wife is giving me hell about it:director:

hopefully Mark pulls through because im in CA, so might be nice for shipping.


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## rudeJARHEAD (Jul 12, 2009)

jbrown287 said:


> I last spoke with him about 2 weeks ago and he said he had the flu. I emailed again on the 25th and still no response. I do believe the week build time he first gave me has went out the window. This may be the lesson learned for using gift option on PP!! Sure hope it turns out better than I think it's going to.


I got the same story, I ordered on the 8th and he told me he would have it in the mail by the 16th, with a if that date changes I'll let you know. Emailed him again on the 20th after I didnt hear anything and he said he would let me know the ETA once he got working again. I was going to give him untill after the new year before I asked him again what the hold up is.


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## Athion (Jul 17, 2010)

It sounds like maybe he bit off more than he can chew?


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## Zfog (Oct 16, 2010)

How many people ordered from him?
Even if he took on too much work, he should still kepp in contact!
Did he accept money if so how much, did he take the whole payment or just a small deposit? Regardless of the level of talent. These are more on the lines of building to specs, they are easier to build than a humidor which is fairly involved.
I hope this works out ok, I think if I need some I will just wait for Ed to make them when he gets the time!


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## eber (Jan 2, 2009)

hopefullty this gets resolved, I can really use a couple drawers for my vino


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## jbrown287 (Aug 18, 2010)

Did he mention to everyone else about the prices of SC going up to almost $8.00 a board foot? Sounds like he is telling everyone the same thing. I tried to tell him that if he kept telling people a week build that he would be buried in orders. He also acted like he could handle them. Guess it's more involved than what he thought. I ordered 4 shelves, 2 dbl drawers and 1 single.


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## WaxingMoon (Aug 13, 2009)

Perhaps a little peer pressure might help resolve the issue.... I went to a woodworking forum that this fellow has 4,322 posts at the time of this writing - so, I figured he would do well.... as you know, having that many posts in any forum usually means you are well respected....

If you care to view the post - or even sign in and put in your $0.02, then here is _the link...._

If you don't care to do that... below is what I posted within the woodworking forum.

From a forum post at woodnet.net

_"A while back, I posted a thread for a woodworking opportunity which had some great responses....

I sent the first "lot" to a fellow woodworker from this forum who has, as of this writing, 4,322 posts in here and after several conversations, I was comfortable in turning over some work for him....

Well.... several weeks later, and after deposits have been paid to this fellow woodworker.... there is no communication between him and the customers that I had referred to him and I am left trying to answer for this... After all, it was my referral that these clients trusted. I've worked hard to cultivate my client base and I thought that us, as woodworkers, were a notch above some of the other industries out there....

But - what is happening is there are several people that have paid this man a deposit, if not for the entire product and promises that were made have not been met, nor has there been any communication to explain why. These guys are feeling that they have been ripped off.

Thank you for listening to my rant - but, I felt that I needed to say something. Customer service is paramount in what we do - and if you can't do something - say so. If you're running behind - communicate with the people that are counting on you. Don't take the money and run or hide and leave somebody else to clean up the mess.

I won't say who this is - you know who you are - I just want to say thanks (yes, that was sarcastic)....

As for the other fellows that expressed interest - I guess this is a case of one guy screwing it up for the rest of ya....

Again, I apologize for the rant....

Happy New Year

I gotta tell ya - I don't appreciate it. This could have been a venture that could, quite possibly, created a full time job for one or two woodworkers - but, now - I'm staying out of it. If I can't build it, I will simply tell the potential customer - I can't do it. "

_


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## jbrown287 (Aug 18, 2010)

Ed, thanks for the help in trying to resolve these issues. Hopefully it will all still work out.


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## jbrown287 (Aug 18, 2010)

I emailed him after posting my last bit and within 10 minutes had this in my inbox. I asked him if there was anyway to gt an update and that a lot of other people were trying to get in touch with him.

Jeff,
I apologize for not getting back to you earlier, I am very busy. As I said before, having the flu for a week and then the holidays, and on top of that a sick child and and her mother in the house put a huge strain on my abilities to do my job on time. Been playing catch-up fro the past two weeks plus.
I don't know if I told you this before, but making these shelves and drawers is not my full time job. I run a small cabinetry and furniture making business where I am the only employee. That is what I do to pay my bills, making these cedar drawers and shelves is something I began doing for the experience and to help out others where my talents could be used. I make absolutely no money on these items, at $28 for a typical shelf the breakdown is simple. $10 for material and roughly 2 1/2 hours labor each, not included is the actual cost of running the equipment, the resharpening costs of knives and replacement blades. Even in an assembly line operation where I made 6 or 7 shelves at one time it still requires a full day and a half. In fact, I probably loose money by making these for you guys. 
Why do I do it? I enjoy doing woodworking. I enjoy helping my fellow man. My products are top quality and will probably outlive your children with proper care. That said, if you want a refund just say so, I personally would rather deliver you a product. I only ask for patience on your part.
Mark


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## Snagged (Aug 20, 2010)

Maybe this guy and Chase should start a support group for overworked and underpaid woodworkers. 

Ouch...sorry...that was mean, but I just couldn't help it!

This type of work is hard to do for a profit, especially if you aren't doing it full time. That's why I don't do it. I can be poor and work a much easier job.

I built most of the furniture in my house because I enjoy building things that I use. However, I turn down requests all the time to sell pieces. People either don't want to pay enough to make it worth my time investment or they drastically underestimate how much it "should" cost to buy a custom built piece. 

I built a liquor cabinet that's beautiful (if I do say so myself). Materials for it cost around $500. It took me six weekends (10-hour days) to build it. I wouldn't build one to sell for less than $3000 because I don't get anything out of it at less than that. At that price, I'd make about $20 an hour, which isn't bad. Is it "worth" that to someone? Nope. I could probably sell one for $1200...which translates to almost $6/hour. THEREFORE, I don't sell them. 

And I especially don't take orders for them, whine about how little I'm making off of them, and then not deliver them on time.

Sorry, but craftsmen like this irritate me.


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## WaxingMoon (Aug 13, 2009)

Snagged said:


> Maybe this guy and Chase should start a support group for overworked and underpaid woodworkers.
> 
> Ouch...sorry...that was mean, but I just couldn't help it!
> 
> ...


Well Said!


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## woodted (Jan 3, 2009)

WaxingMoon said:


> Perhaps a little peer pressure might help resolve the issue.... I went to a woodworking forum that this fellow has 4,322 posts at the time of this writing - so, I figured he would do well.... as you know, having that many posts in any forum usually means you are well respected....
> 
> If you care to view the post - or even sign in and put in your $0.02, then here is _the link...._
> 
> ...


Reminds me Ed why I like this forum over WoodNet! I used to spend a lot of time over there. Those guys over there can be real A**holes!:laser:


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## johnmoss (Jun 18, 2010)

woodted said:


> Reminds me Ed why I like this forum over WoodNet! I used to spend a lot of time over there. Those guys over there can be real A**holes!:laser:


+1

I've been a member there since 2003..total posts 42 LOL

I quickly learned if you're not one of the "in crowd" they quickly treat you like dirt. I quickly tired of Dave and his "laser cannon" OMG grow up!


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## jbrown287 (Aug 18, 2010)

I paid close to chasidor prices. Which was perfectly fine. But now he is saying SC is almost 8.00 a board foot and he will have to raise prices on future orders. If he would stick to his estimated build time I would have paid more than chasidor prices. I know there are things that come up but going from a week to close to a month. I chalk it all up to jumping in head first.


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## rudeJARHEAD (Jul 12, 2009)

WaxingMoon said:


> Perhaps a little peer pressure might help resolve the issue.... I went to a woodworking forum that this fellow has 4,322 posts at the time of this writing - so, I figured he would do well.... as you know, having that many posts in any forum usually means you are well respected....
> 
> If you care to view the post - or even sign in and put in your $0.02, then here is _the link...._
> 
> ...


Thanks Ed. I do not fault you for the referral, I know that you made it good hearted and with the best of intentions. I am sure that he will come through it will just take a bit longer than everyone expected.


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## Athion (Jul 17, 2010)

Sent Mark an email on Friday (I've been very upbeat, and nice in all my correspondence with him)... no response at all ... sent another one today (the 1 Month mark) that was a TINY bit more harsh.... 

At this point, I just want my damn shelves LOL I can wait a bit more if needed, hate to start all over (and thats assuming he will refund my money at anything close to the speed hes shown in doing the work)....


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## jbrown287 (Aug 18, 2010)

I requested the offered refund and he went 3 days without a response. Then I sent him another asking when would I get the refund and he sent me this.

Jeff,
You are actually better off just waiting for me to finish making your order since it is almost finished. Materials have been cut and sanded to size and specifications, trial assembly is done, they only need final glue-up. 
Mark

I sent him another one saying that I would rather have a refund and still have not heard anything from him. Will I ever get the refund who knows will I ever get the parts who knows.....


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## Athion (Jul 17, 2010)

Maybe he can send you the refund and me the shelves? LOL  

I want to believe he actually has them that close to completion....


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## gibson_es (Jan 23, 2010)

sorry to hear this isnt working ed, but with jay aorund now maybe it will all work out, in this economy i dont see how anyone could do this, and pass up a chance to make some money, and make full time. i hope some of these guys get a refund, or there selves, or something, from this "mark" fellow. your a tough soul not to have posted his name out there, i sure would have, best of wishes to you and my other fellow BOTL that have placed trust in a man that forgot his email password. lol.


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## Athion (Jul 17, 2010)

Ok, NOW I'm pissed. Here's the email reply I got today:

Sorry Mike, dealing with some issues...  Need to finish a cabinet job this week.  I'll get back to you when I know more.

I mean I know my order is small, but to just push it aside like that? Unacceptable. I told him it was time to send me my money back... Here's hoping


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## gibson_es (Jan 23, 2010)

im no wood worker, i dont know how long it takes to make your drawers, but if it was me, i would do the smaller project first just to get it out of the way, off the list, money in pocket, then move on to the big one.....

really it should be first come first serve i guess, but if your gonna pick and choose... c'mon!


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## UIVandal (Dec 23, 2010)

...Wow

Reading this thread shows me how some people can be. One month build time? That's ridiculous.

One of the biggest ways I gauge a distributor/craftsman is by how quickly they can get back to me and how they get back to me. The last response received was basically completely discounting your wait time and desire to get your product/money.

Definitely will not be doing business with that guy, even though it was unlikely I ever would have.


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## WaxingMoon (Aug 13, 2009)

This whole thing is disgusting..... 

As I said before.... Anybody getting screwed over the referral thing... I'll make right... Might take some time, but I'll get 'er done....

On that note, I'm working through pricing these things out.... I was thinking to make it simple.... something like $20 per piece - plus actual wood costs.... A typical drawer, let's say 14" x 12.5" x 3" deep would have about 1.4 board feet of spanish cedar involved..... Spanish cedar is currently $6.50/board foot in my neck of the woods..... So that drawer would cost $20 plus (1.4 bf * 6.5) for a total of $28.90....

The same drawer 6" deep would cost $33.03 as it would use just a hare over 2 board feet....

A tray - 14" x 12.5" would cost $24.37.....

Doesn't matter if it's a tray, a deeper drawer or a larger piece.... the mechanics of the build are the same.... I really just want to make it simple....

One thing I discovered in working with my Edgestar.... Is the taper.... even though the trays that came with it are square.... the damn thing is tapered by about 1/2".... So, in making the drawers, I measured the front end... and built three drawers... then went to slide them in and they didn't fit... they went about 1/4 the way in and fell victim to the unseen taper... So, it would be imperitive to communicate whether there is a taper or not in your unit.... The trays that come with it will be square, but the plastic molding of the insert is what is tapered... the grooves are shallower at the front than they are at the rear. If it is tapered, the drawers must be built to fit inside the smallest dimension.... 

Anyways.... food for thought as I am working on opening the flood gates on these things - a couple of weeks out from doing so, but just working through the pricing for now...


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## smelvis (Sep 7, 2009)

Trying to help people out Ed, It's not your fault at all. No one is remotely blaming you!!!

But if you start building drawers for the Tower units let me know!


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## Athion (Jul 17, 2010)

Ed : the thought is appreciated for sure. I know you were just trying to help and I, for one, certainly do not hold you responsible. You saw a way to help out 2 different groups of people, and being the type of person that you are, tried to make it happen. The fault in this lays squarely at the feet of Mark. 

Im just hoping I can get my money back ... in which case, no harm no foul  

The really annoying thing is I went a little bugass nuts on the Devil site... just got like 35 cigars in yesterday, and another 35 on the way (This from a guy that's never had more than 40 sticks at one time) ... and no real place to put them inside the Vino LOL (I'll be putting them in empty boxes I guess  ) ...


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## Snagged (Aug 20, 2010)

WaxingMoon said:


> This whole thing is disgusting.....
> 
> As I said before.... Anybody getting screwed over the referral thing... I'll make right... Might take some time, but I'll get 'er done....


No good deed goes unpunished, my friend! If I lived closer, I'd offer to help you out just to get a peek at the humidor factory!

-Mike


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## jbrown287 (Aug 18, 2010)

Athion said:


> Ok, NOW I'm pissed. Here's the email reply I got today:
> 
> Sorry Mike, dealing with some issues... Need to finish a cabinet job this week. I'll get back to you when I know more.
> 
> I mean I know my order is small, but to just push it aside like that? Unacceptable. I told him it was time to send me my money back... Here's hoping


All I can say is WOW. I responded back to him asking again when would I receive me refund and still no answer. Sounds like even if they do show up and my unit is tapered they won't fit. But it will all get sorted out in the wash someway. If it turns out good or bad, we all knew the risk!

How Many sent the payments as PP gift?? I did :crazy:


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## Athion (Jul 17, 2010)

jbrown287 said:


> How Many sent the payments as PP gift?? I did :crazy:


Yeah, I did that too.. but, I did it from my phone, and that was (at the time) the only option.. so Im hoping I can go back thru PP and get something done... not sure...


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## jbrown287 (Aug 18, 2010)

I tried and it said you can't dispute a gift option. I had the same trouble with someone selling cigars on another sight that I think has surfaced here again. I have learned my lesson about that gift option thats for sure.


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## rudeJARHEAD (Jul 12, 2009)

I sent it as a gift as well. I am more than a little pissed being that one of the first things I asked his is what his time line is so that I wouldnt be friggin waiting around guessing when I was gonna get my shelves. I was under the impression when he told me build time was a week that he actually meant that.


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## fivespdcat (Nov 16, 2010)

this is just wow! I can't believe how its all going down. Too many good people to have this happen. However it's not uncommon on the net these days. I saw it a lot in my younger days on the car forum circuit...


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## Athion (Jul 17, 2010)

So another couple of days with zero response... Here's the email I sent him tonight :

Mark,

I've tried to be as understanding as possible, but I've reached my limit. Perhaps $132 isn't much money to you, but it represents a signifiant investment to me. 

I'm going to give you until the close of business Friday (1/7/11) to either provide me with a tracking number proving you have shipped my order, or a full refund.

If I do not receive one or the other, I will file a dispute with ******, and file a  complaint with your local Better Business Bureau. 

Let's not let it come to all that. Do the right thing, and we can both move on.

.......

Still hoping for the best


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## jbrown287 (Aug 18, 2010)

I have also sent 2 more emails asking about the refund and still no answer. It's almost comical how he said and all but gauranteed a week build time and still not one product built to completion.


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## WaxingMoon (Aug 13, 2009)

jbrown287 said:


> I have also sent 2 more emails asking about the refund and still no answer. It's almost comical how he said and all but gauranteed a week build time and still not one product built to completion.


Probably built them.... and then discovered the taper.... live & learn, huh. Well, Jeff - I got yours just about done (anybody want a deal on 3 drawers that won't fit in an Edgestar because of the taper?)... just need to do a couple of trays and they'll be ready.

By the way.... I think we've figured out a pricing scheme and I ordered a butt load of spanish cedar (arriving today).....

Keeping it simple.... $25 per piece for labor plus the cost of wood.... Shipping on you. A typical drawer will take about 1 to 1.5 board feet and spanish cedar is running about $6 per board foot.... Hardwood fronts and the like will be extra, but not by much.... depends on what is used.


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## Athion (Jul 17, 2010)

Will they fit in a vinotemp Ed? Or are the two completely different?


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## WaxingMoon (Aug 13, 2009)

Athion said:


> Will they fit in a vinotemp Ed? Or are the two completely different?


I'm sure they're different..... I don't have a vino to see....

I know Vino's taper as well..... It's not the tray that tapers, but the plastic molding insert inside the vino, and edgestar, etc.......

For example, it could be the runners could be 1/2" deep at the front of the unit, and then 3/4" deep at the rear..... The square shelves that come with the unit fit just fine.... Hard to explain, but.... they taper. So, if anybody orders these things.... it's important to measure both the front and the back width of the unit....

I can't remember off the top of my head how wide these drawers are... But, I can check this evening...


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## Habano (Jul 5, 2010)

Athion said:


> So another couple of days with zero response... Here's the email I sent him tonight :
> 
> Mark,
> 
> ...


I would also file a report with the local authorities. You have proof of payment, and I am sure you have copies of all the emails between the two of you. I think if you scare him enough, he will respond and either refund you in full, or send you the product. I know I've had to use this tactic for other things, and it works.


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## Athion (Jul 17, 2010)

Starbuck said:


> I would also file a report with the local authorities. You have proof of payment, and I am sure you have copies of all the emails between the two of you. I think if you scare him enough, he will respond and either refund you in full, or send you the product. I know I've had to use this tactic for other things, and it works.


Thats a really good idea and I do have all the proof of payment and whatnot, and his emails basically blowing me off... so yeah, time to call me a police department!  Thanks man!


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## Athion (Jul 17, 2010)

WaxingMoon said:


> I'm sure they're different..... I don't have a vino to see....
> 
> I know Vino's taper as well..... It's not the tray that tapers, but the plastic molding insert inside the vino, and edgestar, etc.......
> 
> ...


Ok, keeping in mind that I work on computers... not things that need to be measured or cut (mainly because I mismeasure and then cut myself  ) I see what you are talking about with the taper... looks like the front is 14.5 inches wide and the very back is 14 even (no idea how deep the grooves are) and the thing is 11.5 inches deep (ok, the metal shelf that comes with the unit is 11.5  .. that was easy to measure  )


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## WaxingMoon (Aug 13, 2009)

Oh Oh.... My laser guy wants to play.... lol
He just sent me these pictures from a Frigidaire, 8 bottle...
MDF Mock Ups.... the interior dims on these drawers are 6.25" x 10.75" and they are 2-3/8" deep.




























And.... How would you like this as your tray bottoms... He's been wanting me to send me the trays for a long time... (I don't know why I'm posting this.... will probably put my tray work out of biz....)... lol










Hat's off to my buddy Jerry in Atlanta... He's not a BOTL, but has a heart as big as Alaska....


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## WaxingMoon (Aug 13, 2009)

Jeff's Trays....


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## Athion (Jul 17, 2010)

Wow, those look really really nice. Is that one inch tall at the top, 2 inch in the middle and 4 inch on the bottom?

And in case anyone missed it, he built those in a day (twice if I'm not mistaken) LoL


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## Rock31 (Sep 30, 2010)

Great work Ed, those look awesome!


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## foxracer72 (Nov 23, 2010)

very nice! i need to get on someones list:fish2:


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## Habano (Jul 5, 2010)

WaxingMoon said:


> Jeff's Trays....


Very nice Ed. What's a set running like this? Any customization for exotic wood on the front? I'm shopping for a new vino as I need the room. I want you to be the ones to build me the trays and drawers my friend.

Also do you just do the 28 wine cooler sizes? Reason I ask is I may be going with a bigger cooler such as a 34 or 38 wine cooler. Let me know my friend and keep up the great work.


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## jbrown287 (Aug 18, 2010)

They look awesome. Can't wait to get them in and start filling them up. And again I really appreciate it.


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## jbrown287 (Aug 18, 2010)

Newest Mark update: Got this from him this morning.

I am not ignoring anyone, I am dealing with life. Making these spanish cedar shelves and drawers is not my way of producing income to support my family. I am making them because I enjoy woodworking. If you want a refund, I will process you a refund after I subtract the material expense I have already purchased for your order, I won't charge you the 2 1/2 hour trip to the lumber yard to pick up the cedar or the additional time and labor to mill the lumber to 3/8" and 1/2" flat and square. I will include a fuel surcharge though, 125 miles round trip adds up.
When you asked me to make these for you, I was at a place where work was slow and I was looking for a way to invest my time into something productive, since then my work picked up and is taking all my time so I am unable to invest any free time into making drawers and shelves which earn me less than $1 an hour. When work slows down I will be able to make them. If you don't want them, that's fine, I'll throw them away. I certainly don't need any more litter in the shop.

Has anyone figured out what we can do about this?


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## Zfog (Oct 16, 2010)

Sounds like a stand up guy. :der:



jbrown287 said:


> Newest Mark update: Got this from him this morning.
> 
> I am not ignoring anyone, I am dealing with life. Making these spanish cedar shelves and drawers is not my way of producing income to support my family. I am making them because I enjoy woodworking. If you want a refund, I will process you a refund after I subtract the material expense I have already purchased for your order, I won't charge you the 2 1/2 hour trip to the lumber yard to pick up the cedar or the additional time and labor to mill the lumber to 3/8" and 1/2" flat and square. I will include a fuel surcharge though, 125 miles round trip adds up.
> When you asked me to make these for you, I was at a place where work was slow and I was looking for a way to invest my time into something productive, since then my work picked up and is taking all my time so I am unable to invest any free time into making drawers and shelves which earn me less than $1 an hour. When work slows down I will be able to make them. If you don't want them, that's fine, I'll throw them away. I certainly don't need any more litter in the shop.
> ...


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## smelvis (Sep 7, 2009)

jbrown287 said:


> Newest Mark update: Got this from him this morning.
> 
> I am not ignoring anyone, I am dealing with life. Making these spanish cedar shelves and drawers is not my way of producing income to support my family. I am making them because I enjoy woodworking. If you want a refund, I will process you a refund after I subtract the material expense I have already purchased for your order, I won't charge you the 2 1/2 hour trip to the lumber yard to pick up the cedar or the additional time and labor to mill the lumber to 3/8" and 1/2" flat and square. I will include a fuel surcharge though, 125 miles round trip adds up.
> When you asked me to make these for you, I was at a place where work was slow and I was looking for a way to invest my time into something productive, since then my work picked up and is taking all my time so I am unable to invest any free time into making drawers and shelves which earn me less than $1 an hour. When work slows down I will be able to make them. If you don't want them, that's fine, I'll throw them away. I certainly don't need any more litter in the shop.
> ...


Zero integrity, anyone who has paid ****** dispute it this guy can not be trusted, Check into filing BBB complaints that's easy. Then someones suggested Police or civil charges, unfortunately with the internet they would have to be filed in his jurisdiction so anyone close can do that.

Sorry to hear this sh*t guy's you all have had a rough time with these shelves, what a snotty letter. Jeez anything I can do to help LMK

Dave

PS
Anyone has his info please send it to me and let me think about it a bit.


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## johnmoss (Jun 18, 2010)

jbrown287 said:


> Newest Mark update: Got this from him this morning.
> 
> I am not ignoring anyone, I am dealing with life. Making these spanish cedar shelves and drawers is not my way of producing income to support my family. I am making them because I enjoy woodworking. If you want a refund, I will process you a refund after I subtract the material expense I have already purchased for your order, I won't charge you the 2 1/2 hour trip to the lumber yard to pick up the cedar or the additional time and labor to mill the lumber to 3/8" and 1/2" flat and square. I will include a fuel surcharge though, 125 miles round trip adds up.
> When you asked me to make these for you, I was at a place where work was slow and I was looking for a way to invest my time into something productive, since then my work picked up and is taking all my time so I am unable to invest any free time into making drawers and shelves which earn me less than $1 an hour. When work slows down I will be able to make them. If you don't want them, that's fine, I'll throw them away. I certainly don't need any more litter in the shop.
> ...


Holy sh*t. Now he's just being a @ss. How did you pay him? Might want to see if you can dispute the charges. I know you can if you used PP.


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## Rock31 (Sep 30, 2010)

Sorry Jeff and any others that paid him, guy seems like a complete @ss!


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## johnmoss (Jun 18, 2010)

..another thing to think about. Since he obviously has a business you can hit him there too. As Dave says the BBB is a good place to start. So is contacting the Attorney General's office for the state he's in. Since it seems he's done this to more than one person here there's a pattern. At minimum it might put a little scare in him.


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## jbrown287 (Aug 18, 2010)

Seems like most have paid with PP gift option and from what I have read you can't dispute that. I also looked and seen something about if it's over 45 days you can't open a dispute. If anyone knows a way around that please let me know I am open to all suggestions. The BBB is a good idea.


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## Habano (Jul 5, 2010)

jbrown287 said:


> Newest Mark update: Got this from him this morning.
> 
> I am not ignoring anyone, I am dealing with life. Making these spanish cedar shelves and drawers is not my way of producing income to support my family. I am making them because I enjoy woodworking. If you want a refund, I will process you a refund after I subtract the material expense I have already purchased for your order, I won't charge you the 2 1/2 hour trip to the lumber yard to pick up the cedar or the additional time and labor to mill the lumber to 3/8" and 1/2" flat and square. I will include a fuel surcharge though, 125 miles round trip adds up.
> When you asked me to make these for you, I was at a place where work was slow and I was looking for a way to invest my time into something productive, since then my work picked up and is taking all my time so I am unable to invest any free time into making drawers and shelves which earn me less than $1 an hour. When work slows down I will be able to make them. If you don't want them, that's fine, I'll throw them away. I certainly don't need any more litter in the shop.
> ...


Take a weekend road trip, visit the guy at the shop unannounced. Destroy everything he has, smoke a cigar halfway, keep it lit, then shove the rest up his ass and then ask him how does it feel to be screwed over and get a smartass answer? Oh and by the way, I hope my cigar ash didn't "litter" your shop to much. Then drive off.

Of course I wouldn't do this, but the thought came to mind if someone had done this to me.

:bounce:

In all seriousness. Dispute the charge with PPal and your bank as well in case PPal tries to say they can't do anything. Contact the local authorities and make them aware it's not just happening to you, but several other people as well. Then contact the local BBB and make them aware of your situation. If nothing happens, then proceed with plan "A" above...lol.


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## Rock31 (Sep 30, 2010)

Not condoning violence even though that email deserves a swift kick to the balls but on a photography forum I visit one guy scammed a few people, 3 forum members showed up at this guys house unannounced and recovered everything the scammer stole from the members. No violence needed, the guy probably s&ht himself when they showed up.


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## Zfog (Oct 16, 2010)

I myself wouldn't do anything except for dispute with paypoo. I would pray for the individual. 
Visit websites like www.ripoffreport.com and the like. There are tons out there. See if he has a website and report it to those sites. If he did, when someone did a search for his website...the ripoff report site could potentially pop up. But like I said, this is not the approach I would take!
Have fun:rofl:


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## smelvis (Sep 7, 2009)

jbrown287 said:


> Seems like most have paid with PP gift option and from what I have read you can't dispute that. I also looked and seen something about if it's over 45 days you can't open a dispute. If anyone knows a way around that please let me know I am open to all suggestions. The BBB is a good idea.


I have always had the best results by just calling payp, if there is a way around it they would know without having to read all the legal stuff. Make sure to tell them it has a bunch of complaints and not just you!


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## johnmoss (Jun 18, 2010)

Yeah..that's the deal with the gift option..bummer. I sure hope things work out for you. 

I think it's time to post him full name and his Woodnet username..but I'm vengeful like that..LOL


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## jbrown287 (Aug 18, 2010)

I found his home address and sent it to him with the telephone number asking if it was his shop or home because I was filing a claim. See what he has to say about that. I will call PP and see what they can do.

Just got off the phone with PP and there is nothing they can do. DAMN gift option.......or me for using it.


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## Athion (Jul 17, 2010)

So today I see an email from Mark waiting for me in my inbox.... After reading it I came here to post it. But there no need. Jeff already posted it for me...

That's right. I got the EXACT same letter. Apparently even blowing off customers is to much work, he uses a form letter for it.

I'm even more pissed now than I was....


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## jbrown287 (Aug 18, 2010)

Went to the BBB website to try and file something and couldn't find his business. Wonder why it's so easy to screw someone and so hard to get anything done about it??

When I read my email I figured everyone got the same thing.


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## smelvis (Sep 7, 2009)

jbrown287 said:


> Went to the BBB website to try and file something and couldn't find his business. Wonder why it's so easy to screw someone and so hard to get anything done about it??


You don't need his business to file a complaint just his name and address and his business name if he has one, also if his employer is in this line file against them naming him as contact (not right but they will get a letter), dirty trick but it ill wake him up fast when his boss has to ask him what this is about!


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## jbrown287 (Aug 18, 2010)

Just got the BBB claim filed. Guess I'll wait and see what happens. Will they email the outcome or what? First time doing this.


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## WaxingMoon (Aug 13, 2009)

How about going in to these links and put in reviews...

_Angies List_

_Kudzu_

A lot of people check these sites before securing work...

Mark Franz
[email protected]
Temecula, CA, , United States


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## Athion (Jul 17, 2010)

Jeff, did you file the complaint under his business name or personal name? I want to add too it, and/or create another one. 

I have to share this story though... My wife is just simply too good for her own good. I was ranting about this situation and mentioned calling the local (his local) Police Department and filing charges for Fraud. She got REALLY upset, and worried about this poor guy spending the night in jail or something (not that that would ever happen)...

/sigh I married a softy LOL  I mean she was just as mad as I was up until than ... these drawers/trays were supposed to be a Christmas gift to me from her you see...


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## jbrown287 (Aug 18, 2010)

I filed under m.Gregory Interior Creations.


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## fivespdcat (Nov 16, 2010)

jbrown287 said:


> Newest Mark update: Got this from him this morning.
> 
> I am not ignoring anyone, I am dealing with life. Making these spanish cedar shelves and drawers is not my way of producing income to support my family. I am making them because I enjoy woodworking. If you want a refund, I will process you a refund after I subtract the material expense I have already purchased for your order, I won't charge you the 2 1/2 hour trip to the lumber yard to pick up the cedar or the additional time and labor to mill the lumber to 3/8" and 1/2" flat and square. I will include a fuel surcharge though, 125 miles round trip adds up.
> When you asked me to make these for you, I was at a place where work was slow and I was looking for a way to invest my time into something productive, since then my work picked up and is taking all my time so I am unable to invest any free time into making drawers and shelves which earn me less than $1 an hour. When work slows down I will be able to make them. If you don't want them, that's fine, I'll throw them away. I certainly don't need any more litter in the shop.
> ...


I'm calling total BS on this guy, if he was earning less than $1/hour there is no way he would do it for a bunch of people he doesn't even know. I'm really sure he drove 125 miles just to pick up your spanish cedar too, because that makes good sense. He probably found something that pays him a bit better and doesn't want to do it, but he already invested the cash and time to start, so he doesn't want to lose his initial investment by giving you your money back, but he doesn't want to finish the work because that would take away from something that pays him more (maybe $2/hour:rofl


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## jbrown287 (Aug 18, 2010)

Yeah it's total BS. I bet he started doing it and realized he screwed up and got in over his head and just ditched the whole thing. Blew the money on drugs and hookers and can't live up to what he said. :rofl:


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## Josh Lucky 13 (Dec 23, 2010)

Wow that totally sucks. If you really want to get back at him may want to find out if he was reporting this income to tax people let him deal with IRS.


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## smelvis (Sep 7, 2009)

jbrown287 said:


> Just got the BBB claim filed. Guess I'll wait and see what happens. Will they email the outcome or what? First time doing this.


All of it is email for you unless you requested snail mail. God Luck!


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## Jy001 (Oct 16, 2010)

fivespdcat said:


> I'm calling total BS on this guy, if he was earning less than $1/hour there is no way he would do it for a bunch of people he doesn't even know. I'm really sure he drove 125 miles just to pick up your spanish cedar too, because that makes good sense. He probably found something that pays him a bit better and doesn't want to do it, but he already invested the cash and time to start, so he doesn't want to lose his initial investment by giving you your money back, but he doesn't want to finish the work because that would take away from something that pays him more (maybe $2/hour:rofl


I got the exact same email from this guy. He is no better than a common thief. I filed a claim against him in Small Claims Court. He will be served and forced to appear in court. It takes some time to weed through the required paperwork but it is all on line, and is easy to do. No Lawyer is required and there is a $30.00 filing fee. He will be forced to pay that fee, plus court costs, and he'll have to repay me for the money he stole.

I do not have enough posts to post a link to the court but if anyone needs it, email me.


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## jbrown287 (Aug 18, 2010)

That sounds awesome. Everyone that is having problems with him should do that. It would be worth $30.00 to me. Sure wish I could pm you.


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## jpierson (Dec 21, 2010)

I was also going to recommend filing in small claims court, just didnt know if anyone was in his area/county.

I'm not any atty but I work for an insurance company and have worked on several small claims lawsuits. Typically the judges want to get them in and out as quick as possible. I would recommend providing proof of payment, copies of any emails and even this thread printed out to show that several people are having the same problem with him. I don't see a hearing lasting very long. The judge will usually ask if the plaintiff paid for a service and if the defendant provided the product. The fact that his e-mail just basically states that he doesn't want to do the work or refund the money should provide an open and closed case pretty quickly. The judge should also awards suit costs. For some reason, I could also see a default judgement if the defendant doesn't feel this is "worth his time" and doesn't even appear.


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## jbrown287 (Aug 18, 2010)

Do you have to be in CA to do this? Jy001 lives in n. carolina.


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## jpierson (Dec 21, 2010)

I'm not familiar with California requirements. Anyone can file a suit, typically it would be in the location of the tort/breach of contract. Typically, you have to be present for the hearing.....


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## jbrown287 (Aug 18, 2010)

Just got done reading the CA site and it states you have to be present and noone can represent you in the case. Maybe he will chime back in with how it works. It doesn't look like it would work to me.


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## Jy001 (Oct 16, 2010)

Athion said:


> Jeff, did you file the complaint under his business name or personal name? I want to add too it, and/or create another one.
> 
> I have to share this story though... My wife is just simply too good for her own good. I was ranting about this situation and mentioned calling the local (his local) Police Department and filing charges for Fraud. She got REALLY upset, and worried about this poor guy spending the night in jail or something (not that that would ever happen)...
> 
> /sigh I married a softy LOL  I mean she was just as mad as I was up until than ... these drawers/trays were supposed to be a Christmas gift to me from her you see...


I filed under his name, DBA m.Gregory....the court's website guides you through the process

It takes some time but to me, it's the principle. I don't care how much time it takes, or what it costs me to drag this jerk into court and create a record for all to see.

I just tried to post my email but I do not have enough posts.

Any suggestions?


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## Jy001 (Oct 16, 2010)

Waxing moon, may I send you the info to post?


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## Jy001 (Oct 16, 2010)

jbrown287 said:


> Just got done reading the CA site and it states you have to be present and noone can represent you in the case. Maybe he will chime back in with how it works. It doesn't look like it would work to me.


Negative, you do not need to present and no attorney is required.


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## jbrown287 (Aug 18, 2010)

Did you purchase the same things as we did?


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## Jy001 (Oct 16, 2010)

jbrown287 said:


> Did you purchase the same things as we did?


Yes, 2 double drawers and 4 shelves.


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## jbrown287 (Aug 18, 2010)

What site did you go through to actually file the claim.


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## marked (Jul 29, 2010)

jbrown287 said:


> Newest Mark update: Got this from him this morning.
> 
> I am not ignoring anyone, I am dealing with life. Making these spanish cedar shelves and drawers is not my way of producing income to support my family. I am making them because I enjoy woodworking. If you want a refund, I will process you a refund after I subtract the material expense I have already purchased for your order, I won't charge you the 2 1/2 hour trip to the lumber yard to pick up the cedar or the additional time and labor to mill the lumber to 3/8" and 1/2" flat and square. I will include a fuel surcharge though, 125 miles round trip adds up.
> When you asked me to make these for you, I was at a place where work was slow and I was looking for a way to invest my time into something productive, since then my work picked up and is taking all my time so I am unable to invest any free time into making drawers and shelves which earn me less than $1 an hour. When work slows down I will be able to make them. If you don't want them, that's fine, I'll throw them away. I certainly don't need any more litter in the shop.
> ...


What a fvcknut. Does this guy have a website? If so, a DoS attack sounds like it could be fun, along with an email letting him know that it will keep happening until I got FULL refund. Of course, that's in addition to BBB complaints and Attorney General complaints, and anything else I could do to make him wish he hadn't been a cocksucker.


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## jbrown287 (Aug 18, 2010)

It's still under construction. It's mgfic.com


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## Animal (Sep 27, 2010)

Wow, I just read this entire thread, and I can't believe the nerve of this guy. He needed money, contracted some work, got paid in advance, found more lucrative work, and said "Eff you, I ain't doin it. Whatchoo gonna do bout it?"

What I found the most ridiculous was that a refund was requested twice, and he only agreed to provide one after he supposedly picked up the materials. 

I'm about 90% finished convincing my wife that I "need" an Edgestar. My business will be going to Ed and no other. I'm sorry you fellas had to deal with this other guy, and I hope your efforts to ensure this doesn't happen to anyone else are successful.


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## jbrown287 (Aug 18, 2010)

Oh, I have been blowing his email up everyday. I'm going to call the numbers I have today and see what happens.


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## WaxingMoon (Aug 13, 2009)

jbrown287 said:


> Oh, I have been blowing his email up everyday. I'm going to call the numbers I have today and see what happens.


Everybody should call him - at all hours..... 951-719-7472


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## jbrown287 (Aug 18, 2010)

I just tried that very number and there was no answer. Went to voicemail. I'm going to try the on that I think is his home number. It's still fairly early in CA.


Other one is dead.


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## ckay (May 10, 2010)

Mark G Franz Jr 
30160 Pechanga Dr
Temecula, CA 92592-2514
(951) 225-8923
Age:	50-54

Free People Search | WhitePages


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## smelvis (Sep 7, 2009)

Good Luck Guy's
I got a few tricks to try even though he didn't get me, we all have to stick together against thieves!!


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## jbrown287 (Aug 18, 2010)

Thats the same number I tried and it's disconnected.

To bad for him I work nights and I will call the other number at all hours.


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## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

In a former life, I found that,

This:










Plus this:










Equals This:









Simpler and less technical, yet nearly as effective:










Just sayin', since you guys seem to be running out of ideas.


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## shannensmall (Jun 30, 2010)

OMFG Don, that's sum funny sheet!

This guy is a piece of work! I hope he gets what's coming to him.


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## socalocmatt (Dec 22, 2010)

What total BS. This pisses me off. If you are going to file suit against him and need someone to serve him, let me know. I live in So Cal about 30 min from the addy posted. In a prior life I did fugitive recovery and did some process serving for a few years. I'll serve his @$$ with everyone's papers at once. I'm thinking something poetic like, "Happy New Year douchebag" will work! PM me.


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## Animal (Sep 27, 2010)

socalocmatt said:


> What total BS. This pisses me off. If you are going to file suit against him and need someone to serve him, let me know. I live in So Cal about 30 min from the addy posted. In a prior life I did fugitive recovery and did some process serving for a few years. I'll serve his @$$ with everyone's papers at once. I'm thinking something poetic like, "Happy New Year douchebag" will work! PM me.


Get him!


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## jbrown287 (Aug 18, 2010)

Thats funny....I wish I lived closer because a visit to his house and place of work would be appropriate. I will keep calling at 4:00am, 5:00am and 6:00am everyday until he answers and gives us all refunds. Even if he don't it's still fun. Really wish I had a working home number. Thanks for all the support guys.


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## mrmikey32 (Dec 7, 2010)

I have a home pbx, and can set up automatic dial.....


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## jbrown287 (Aug 18, 2010)

I figured I would expand Marks interest so I have been signing him up for every newsletter and subscription I can think of. :smoke:


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## Jy001 (Oct 16, 2010)

jbrown287 said:


> I figured I would expand Marks interest so I have been signing him up for every newsletter and subscription I can think of. :smoke:


Sign him up for Thompsons, :fencing:


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## jbrown287 (Aug 18, 2010)

Good one!!

Done!


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## socalocmatt (Dec 22, 2010)

mrmikey32 said:


> I have a home pbx, and can set up automatic dial.....


 LOL. That's classic.


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## WilsonRoa (Dec 20, 2010)

ckay said:


> Mark G Franz Jr
> 30160 Pechanga Dr
> Temecula, CA 92592-2514
> (951) 225-8923
> ...


Just in case you want to know what his house looks like as well...
30160 Pechanga Dr, Temecula, CA 92592-2514 - Google Maps



socalocmatt said:


> What total BS. This pisses me off. If you are going to file suit against him and need someone to serve him, let me know. I live in So Cal about 30 min from the addy posted. In a prior life I did fugitive recovery and did some process serving for a few years. I'll serve his @$$ with everyone's papers at once. I'm thinking something poetic like, "Happy New Year douchebag" will work! PM me.


I'd love to see a video of you serving him with everyone's paperwork..lol. That would be a classic hit on the forum!!

Side note, I hope everything works out for everyone. Keep this thread updated!!!


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## WilsonRoa (Dec 20, 2010)

jbrown287 said:


> I figured I would expand Marks interest so I have been signing him up for every newsletter and subscription I can think of. :smoke:


All types of p0rn comes to mind..lol. I'm sure his wife would be like :jaw: if she saw some crazy shit..lol.


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## jbrown287 (Aug 18, 2010)

WilsonRoa said:


> All types of p0rn comes to mind..lol. I'm sure his wife would be like :jaw: if she saw some crazy shit..lol.


That is tomorrows agenda


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## Jy001 (Oct 16, 2010)

jbrown287 said:


> Good one!!
> 
> Done!


On thes subscriptions give him a new middle name like 'thefe' or 'lyer'


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## Snagged (Aug 20, 2010)

Ouch! Note to self...don't piss off the BOLs at Puff! You guys crack me up.


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## centralharbor (May 20, 2010)

WilsonRoa said:


> Just in case you want to know what his house looks like as well...
> 30160 Pechanga Dr, Temecula, CA 92592-2514 - Google Maps
> 
> I'd love to see a video of you serving him with everyone's paperwork..lol. That would be a classic hit on the forum!!
> ...


That's a nice house! I'm jealous


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## smelvis (Sep 7, 2009)

That google is scary, I just looked up my house, how hell did they get a street view picture of my house?


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## centralharbor (May 20, 2010)

smelvis said:


> That google is scary, I just looked up my house, how hell did they get a street view picture of my house?


Google had cars with cameras on the roof of the cars and they drove around everywhere taking pictures, then they pieced them all together. That's why the view isn't continuous.


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## smelvis (Sep 7, 2009)

centralharbor said:


> Google had cars with cameras on the roof of the cars and they drove around everywhere taking pictures, then they pieced them all together. That's why the view isn't continuous.


F**k Talk about big brother, it's pretty cool but Very Scary!


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## Rock31 (Sep 30, 2010)

Google street view and spokeo are pretty crazy! Street views, family members, alot of the information is very accurate as well.


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## jbrown287 (Aug 18, 2010)

I looked his house up a few days back and sent him an email asking how much his tile roof cost. He didn't have any response to that either.


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## Animal (Sep 27, 2010)

Hey guys, just an idea here. I wouldn't try to "harrass" him too much if you're planning to take legal action (pranks, jokes, that kind of thing). That wouldn't look too good in court.

But if you're not planning to take legal action...

Hi, Mr Franz, did you order 35 pizzas?


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## smelvis (Sep 7, 2009)

I would pester the F**k outta him, a lot of great ideas some even better we can't post for legal reasons but it wouldn't be to hard to really make his life miserable. Good Job guy's.

I am helping yes  nothing like a group helping each other out!!

Dave


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## Athion (Jul 17, 2010)

Ive been trying not to think about it lately... Its got me so upset its probably a good thing he doesnt live within driving distance from me.
I mostly feel like a moron,.. because not only did I use the gift option, he made it sound like he was right on schedule at first, so I paid him the second half ($132 total) ...  

Anyway, I've decided to call the Temecula Police Department tomorrow and see about pressing charges for either Fraud or Theft. Even if we win a civil case, a judgment is pretty useless if he is adamant about not paying (and I think hes made it pretty obvious he could give a rats ass about getting us our money back).

How many others were scammed by this guy? I think Ive seen 3? (counting myself) on this thread... anyone else?


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## Jy001 (Oct 16, 2010)

Athion said:


> Ive been trying not to think about it lately... Its got me so upset its probably a good thing he doesnt live within driving distance from me.
> I mostly feel like a moron,.. because not only did I use the gift option, he made it sound like he was right on schedule at first, so I paid him the second half ($132 total) ...
> 
> Anyway, I've decided to call the Temecula Police Department tomorrow and see about pressing charges for either Fraud or Theft. Even if we win a civil case, a judgment is pretty useless if he is adamant about not paying (and I think hes made it pretty obvious he could give a rats ass about getting us our money back).
> ...


 One of his emails to me said that he had 3 other orders besides mine.

I just had a thought. I paid with a USPS money order. I believe he committed mail fraud. I'll contact my post office.


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## Athion (Jul 17, 2010)

Nice  you may have some recourse with a money order... I hope so!  

Something else thats really annoying, I just KNEW I was getting these trays, so i went a LITTLE overboard at CBid... now im stacking cigars wherever they will fit inside my vino.... /sigh


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## shannensmall (Jun 30, 2010)

If you paid with a US postal MO then yes he has committed a federal offense. They post master will go after him. I've seen them string people up over crap like this. One of my hobbies is dealing with rare and hard to find tropical fish. Because of the nature of this hobby, fish are shipped through the USPS all over the country. It's common place to pay a seller with a USPS MO cause he can cash it when he goes to the PO to mail your fish. And well as with anything there are scamers out there. I can tell you the USPS doesn't EFF around about this sheet.


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## Jy001 (Oct 16, 2010)

Excellent! I'll you you posted.


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## socalocmatt (Dec 22, 2010)

First of all, I'm not an attorney and this isn't lega advice. Just my two cents and how I would see it and what I would do.

To prove fraud you must be able to prove intent to defraud. He must have intened to commit fraud when requesting payment. If he intented to do the job but then flaked out then it wouldn't be fraud. I think what he has done is commit negligent misrepresentation and breach of contract which is civil and not criminal. I know its crap but the only way for this to be criminal is by circumstancial evidence to prove intent of fraud (extremely difficult to do). Since this is across state lines you would have to get someone like the FBI to take the case criminally (good luck). Like I said, it sucks but it is what it is. I would email him and demand a full refund or you will take him to court for breach of contract.

The cost of the wood and the cost of his gas is completely irrelivant to him breaching the contract. Regardless of the cost he was the one to breach and you, the buyers, have a right to be made whole.

The reason why this would work in Shannen's fish cases is because when the money was sent the recipient intended to defraud, never had the fish, and was never going to send the fish.


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## smelvis (Sep 7, 2009)

He is by accepting the funds and agreeing to produce the product breeches the contract, put a lien on his house! You may be allowed up to three times the damages. I don't really know I do know many things can be done and he may very well have to pay all the fee's and or refunds in the end. certainly you have the proof. any judge or mediator would take his offer to throw them away as an ss as well as we did!

If he has a website I would certainly copy all info before he can delete or close it up.


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## socalocmatt (Dec 22, 2010)

Yep, it is breach but not fraud. In CA you can't lein the house until after judgement AND failure to pay the judgement. You have to go to court a second time for the failure to pay the judgement. Also, you can not get 3x you money when dealing with compensatory damages. You can only be made whole. This is called the expectation measure. You can get the money sent plus any actual losses such as court fees. For anything above that you would need to seek punitive damages. The judge would have to want to set an example of him to due the punitive damages. A jury is ussually the ones who would award punitive damages but you would have to be going for more that $5,000 so that it wouldn't be a small claims case.

First step would be to give him the option to make things right. If he doesn't then file a claim.


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## socalocmatt (Dec 22, 2010)

Also, leins on a house in CA are different then a lein on a house in a lot of other states. You wouldn't get you money until he decided to sell the house. Just take his ass to court.


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## Athion (Jul 17, 2010)

But how do you sue someone in CA when you live in (for example) TX? I can barely afford to lose $132. I damn sure cant afford to fly to CA to get it back ...


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## Athion (Jul 17, 2010)

also, thanks for any advice. suggestions, whatever Matt!  it is appreciated


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## socalocmatt (Dec 22, 2010)

In determining jurisdiction on where to file a claim the question must be asked, "Where did the contract take place". If I were you I would file a claim in your county against him. I would argue that the agreement was finalized once payment was made to him. That payment was made in your hometown. He is just fulfilling the agreement in another jurisdiction. He would have to travel there to defend the case. You will have to serve him and show proof of service. He won't show up. You will have to have whatever paperwork served to him again. If he fails to pay then you may have to go to court again. Aske the judge to place an order of levey against his account. If it is PP, then PP is the account. If you paid via money order then you will need to know at least one of his bank accounts.

This is different for different states so I would check out your state's laws about this. Often time there is a free legal help department at most court houses.


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## smelvis (Sep 7, 2009)

Pretty sure in most cases you will have to file in his jurisdiction. I have tried this a few times regarding internet claims and I always get that answer. Sucks you have to get a judgment first here you lien to get a judgment. damn all the states are so different and confusing.


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## obleedo (Feb 4, 2010)

This whole situation totally sucks, and I am sorry for all involved... Just got an EdgeStar, who do I talk to about getting some shelves and drawers?


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## smelvis (Sep 7, 2009)

obleedo said:


> This whole situation totally sucks, and I am sorry for all involved... Just got an EdgeStar, who do I talk to about getting some shelves and drawers?


I would only deal with Ed at Waxingmoon and no one else if it was me!

Good Luck!


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## ktblunden (Oct 7, 2010)

Man, I remember when this thread first popped up and it looked like you guys were going to be getting some good work for a good price. I stopped following it after that because I don't have a Vino. Just saw Dave's thread in the general section and couldn't believe it. This stuff absolutely makes me sick! I hope you guys are able to get your money back. Really sorry you have to go through this. Some people are complete scum!


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## marked (Jul 29, 2010)

smelvis said:


> That google is scary, I just looked up my house, how hell did they get a street view picture of my house?


With one of these...


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## rudeJARHEAD (Jul 12, 2009)

Athion said:


> How many others were scammed by this guy? I think Ive seen 3? (counting myself) on this thread... anyone else?


I got an email from him on Saturday saying that he was completed with my shelves and they would be in the mail on Monday. I havent seen them magiclly appear yet but we will see.


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## Athion (Jul 17, 2010)

When did you order yours Rude? and what did you order? (just seeing if there is any rhyme or reason to his completion/shipping)


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## rudeJARHEAD (Jul 12, 2009)

I ordered 2 shelves for a edgestar on the 5th of December. Since I posted the Wife has called to tell me that the shelves have arrived this afternoon


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## jbrown287 (Aug 18, 2010)

That's crazy......


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## jbrown287 (Aug 18, 2010)

Jy001 said:


> One of his emails to me said that he had 3 other orders besides mine.
> 
> I just had a thought. I paid with a USPS money order. I believe he committed mail fraud. I'll contact my post office.


What address did you send it to?


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## gibson_es (Jan 23, 2010)

fraud? good, i would love to see this guy fined, or even get a bit of jail time, i hate ass holes...


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## Rock31 (Sep 30, 2010)

rudeJARHEAD said:


> I ordered 2 shelves for a edgestar on the 5th of December. Since I posted the Wife has called to tell me that the shelves have arrived this afternoon


How were the shelves? Quality wise. Hopefully everyone gets their stuff and all this nonsense is behind us. Hope someone steps up to the plate for you guys and the legal system takes dare of this guy.


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## jbrown287 (Aug 18, 2010)

I would love to see pics of his stuff. Anyone else have any updates? I still haven't heard anything from him.


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## Athion (Jul 17, 2010)

I sent him an email on friday (the 14th?) .... No response...


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## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

Guys, first off, a disclaimer: I am in no way trying to ruffle any feathers here. I just feel the need to say something based on my personal experience.

When dealing with a one-man shop, it's important to realize that he has to wear a lot of hats. He's manufacturing, procurement, bookkeeping, customer service, marketing, shipping and receiving, etc, etc... If he's inexperienced, he has little knowledge of any of it but the craft part. He might be able to turn out magnificent pieces, but he has no idea of timelines and all the other, sundry stuff. He simply looks at a piece, says to him self, "meh, piece of cake. I can turn that out in no time." Then, the fun begins.

Next thing he knows, life happens. He gets massively burried with orders, he gets a dozen phone calls and emails a day, demanding to know, "where's me shit?" He quickly realizes that if he stops to answer them, he just gets further and further behind. 

Add a full-time job and family (as he states he has) to this. The sum is a nightmare.

It would seem that the guy is finally beginning to ship product. This is a good sign. Perhaps his good intentions, abiet paving the road to Hell, are sincere?

There's no doubt that he bit off far more than he can chew and is now bitter and frustrated. Time will tell, I guess.

I've seen this happen, time and time again, with custom holster makers. They make a few holsters for themselves, then colleagues and friends. Next thing you know, they hang out a shingle and the holster you were promised next week, comes next quarter and people are crying "FOUL" all over the interweb.

Anyway, that's just my tuppence and again, I am NOT defending this weasel.


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## smelvis (Sep 7, 2009)

Yeah Don you are right and I don't think anyone disagrees with how they turned crook, it's that they have had months of chances to fix the problem. I explained how I could easily fix the problem I would hire enough help to get caught up and take no more orders until I am, even if I ended up losing money my integrity is worth more than a few thousand dollars. 

Neither of the two in question have any integrity whatsoever. Way past they might be good guy's they obviously are not good guy's or they would have fixed these problems. They may have started out as good guy's but actions are what matters in life not excuses.

Sorry to anyone who is friends with these guy's. But at this point there is no defense as Dons said for these weasels. :dunno:


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## Athion (Jul 17, 2010)

I understand where you are coming from Don, honest, I do. I am a one man shop, and in fact I have a customers PC in my shop right now thats been there 2 weeks, when I told him a couple of days. But, I have called the customer every couple of days and explained what was up, and what was happening (basically life has been kicking me in the .... well, its just been kicking me  ) and keeping him updated. He is cool with it. 

Here's the problem I have with Mark (Direct cut and paste from his (apparently) form letter email he sent out : 

"When you asked me to make these for you, I was at a place where work was slow and I was looking for a way to invest my time into something productive, since then my work picked up and is taking all my time so I am unable to invest any free time into making drawers and shelves which earn me less than $1 an hour. When work slows down I will be able to make them. If you don't want them, that's fine, I'll throw them away. I certainly don't need any more litter in the shop."

Basically he's saying, hey, your sh!t isnt worth my time, I'll get to it when I get to it... He's acting like hes doing a favor for a friend, not a business transaction for a paying customer.

Thats where I start to have a major issue. Also, taking ten minutes at the end of the day to answer emails isnt too much to ask, I dont think. 

At this point I cant afford the time or the money to do anything BUT wait and hope for the best... so I guess im taking your advice anyway


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## jbrown287 (Aug 18, 2010)

My whole thing is the fact that he offered a refund, I said yes and then he told me I would be better off just waiting on him. I questioned him multiple times about his 1 week build time and told me multiple times that he could do it. I know he got in over his head but it still doesn't excuse the fact that his communication sucks and he is a liar. I don't care what is going on in his life or how busy he is. I would be more compationate if he would have just said, hey I'm really busy and it's going to be a few extra weeks. Or hey I can't do it and here is your refund. Communication does wonders! He should be a man suck it up and finish the job however is best.


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## rudeJARHEAD (Jul 12, 2009)

Rock31 said:


> How were the shelves? Quality wise. Hopefully everyone gets their stuff and all this nonsense is behind us. Hope someone steps up to the plate for you guys and the legal system takes dare of this guy.


The shelves are OK not exactly what I had expected, but the craftsmanship is excellent. IMHO not nearly as nice as Chucks(chasidor) but waiting only a month vice 4-6 offsets the value. I really like the solid look, however they will function as advirtised so I shouldnt be so damn critical right?

Here are the pics to compare

first Mfranz shelf









mfranz side view









the chasidor shelf


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## jbrown287 (Aug 18, 2010)

I even questioned him over that design. He told me it would be easier than the way chasidor makes them. Can't see it.....


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## Josh Lucky 13 (Dec 23, 2010)

he is crazy thinking easier .... its cheaper and more cost effective this way nstead of 1 solid piece with basically holes drilled out (probably routered) he makes small strips to maximize wood. His design uses same amount of wood but should be able to d 2 shelves and more airflow. I think there is a faster way to do it but those are just my thoughts.


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## Zfog (Oct 16, 2010)

His design is nicer IMO but certainly not easier. All you need for the Chasidor shelf is a plunge router. The other is far more time consuming!


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## Snagged (Aug 20, 2010)

Zfog said:


> His design is nicer IMO but certainly not easier. All you need for the Chasidor shelf is a plunge router. The other is far more time consuming!


Well...not exactly. It would be easier and quicker IF YOU HAD THE TOOLS.

What you guys see as "one solid board" in the Chasidor style is actually three boards joined together side-by-side (the edges squared to 90 degrees with a jointer so they fit perfectly and look like one board). To do this, you need tablesaw ($500-1000), a planer ($150-500), A JOINTER ($250-1500), and a router ($150-350). You might be able to joint on a tablesaw or with a router, but the only way it's fast is with a jointer.

With the strip shelf (Weasle's design), the only tool you need is a tablesaw or a router table. But all those strips would take a good long while put together. I'm not making excuses for this guy, and you would THINK he'd have access to the correct tools, but he decided to stick with the tablesaw for whatever reason. Timewise, this guy is making no money on this design.

I think they look neat, though.


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## Zfog (Oct 16, 2010)

I will agree to disagree brother! :mrgreen:



Snagged said:


> Well...not exactly. It would be easier and quicker IF YOU HAD THE TOOLS.
> 
> What you guys see as "one solid board" in the Chasidor style is actually three boards joined together side-by-side (the edges squared to 90 degrees with a jointer so they fit perfectly and look like one board). To do this, you need tablesaw ($500-1000), a planer ($150-500), A JOINTER ($250-1500), and a router ($150-350). You might be able to joint on a tablesaw or with a router, but the only way it's fast is with a jointer.
> 
> ...


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## Snagged (Aug 20, 2010)

THAT is my favorite thing about this forum, my friend: Respectful conversations!


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## gibson_es (Jan 23, 2010)

i dont know wood working, so i cant give an opinion on what disign is faster, i can say that even though dons reason is pretty sound, it seems to me that customer service is very important, and emailing your customers back would be a high priority, i understand it would take time to send out 50+ individual emails, but one mass email stating that it will get down, that he got a huge load, blah blah blah, would be sufficiant, or even an email to ed asking him to tell us whats up woul be great, i dont care how much time is used for customer service, you MUST give it the time needed, though i can understand being overwhelmed by something.... i still think this guy is an ASS.


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## Athion (Jul 17, 2010)

Just checking to see if anyone else that dealt with this tool has had any luck at all? He has now ignored my last 4 emails ... 

Anyone else had any communication with him at all?


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## Jy001 (Oct 16, 2010)

He is a petty thief and a liar. There are no valid excuses. He stole from me, pure and simple.


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## jbrown287 (Aug 18, 2010)

I haven't heard anything either. Pretty well chalked up my money to a learned lesson.


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## Jy001 (Oct 16, 2010)

Goose7232 said:


> Man I'm sorry to hear that you guys got jacked around. This guy never got back to me after repeated emails, and it seemed that Ed was busy building humidors.
> 
> If anyone still wants to get some drawers or shelves, Forrest over at Coyote humidors is making them. Check out my thread to see pictures. He took 3 weeks to finish and send them out and they fit perfect, along with the fact that he answered all my emails.


Forrest has my order. I'm hoping for the best.


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