# Native Americans and Cuban cigars



## kvm (Sep 7, 2005)

A thread on online gambling bought a question to mind. Here in NY until recently "gambling" was illegal. The only casinos allowed were the ones owned and operated by Native Americans on their land. It seems they have a different set of laws that apply to them. So my question is can Native Americans legally purchase cuban cigars? Would they be violating any law that applied to them by having them delivered by the postal service, Fedex or whatever? My guess is James or Vic are going to crush my dreams of a great new b&m nearby. But, I'm going to bed so I can dream for tonight.  Are they subject to federal law but not state law?


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## ResIpsa (Mar 8, 2006)

kvm said:


> A thread on online gambling bought a question to mind. Here in NY until recently "gambling" was illegal. The only casinos allowed were the ones owned and operated by Native Americans on their land. It seems they have a different set of laws that apply to them. So my question is can Native Americans legally purchase cuban cigars? Would they be violating any law that applied to them by having them delivered by the postal service, Fedex or whatever? My guess is James or Vic are going to crush my dreams of a great new b&m nearby. But, I'm going to bed so I can dream for tonight.  Are they subject to federal law but not state law?


Hmmm...this is an interesting question, and I'll try to research it a little bit. Off the top of my head I'd say No, Native Americans cannot legally purchase cuban cigars.

Native American reservations are soverign land, that is true. However, all Native Americans are also *American *citizens and thus subject to all American laws including the embargo. They are no different than an American citizen who holds dual French (italian, polish etc.) citizenship

The question of whether a tribe could legally open a cuban cigar store on a Native American reservation is a little more complex. While the reservations are soverign land, they are not COMPLETELY exempt from oversight by the U.S. government. One of the areas in which they are limited is in their right to deal with foreign governments, and since the embargo is a foreign policy, I'd say no, you cannot sell cuban cigars even on a Native American reservation. The tribes can regulate only their domestic relations, not foreign relations. The Commerce Clause of the U.S. Constitution, provides that "Congress shall have the Power &#8230; *to regulate Commerce *with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and *with the Indian Tribes*" (Art. I, Sec. 8, Cl. 3). This clause has resulted in what is known as Congress's "plenary power" over Indian affairs, which means that Congress has the ultimate right to pass legislation governing Native Americans, even when that legislation conflicts with or abrogates Indian treaties. Let me look into it a little further though


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## muziq (Mar 14, 2005)

ResIpsa said:


> Hmmm...this is an interesting question, and I'll try to research it a little bit. Off the top of my head I'd say No, Native Americans cannot legally purchase cuban cigars.
> 
> Native American reservations are soverign land, that is true. However, all Native Americans are also *American *citizens and thus subject to all American laws including the embargo. They are no different than an American citizen who holds dual French (italian, polish etc.) citizenship
> 
> The question of whether a tribe could legally open a cuban cigar store on a Native American reservation is a little more complex. While the reservations are soverign land, they are not COMPLETELY exempt from oversight by the U.S. government. One of the areas in which they are limited is in their right to deal with foreign governments, and since the embargo is a foreign policy, I'd say no, you cannot sell cuban cigars even on a Native American reservation. The tribes can regulate only their domestic relations, not foreign relations. The Commerce Clause of the U.S. Constitution, provides that "Congress shall have the Power &#8230; *to regulate Commerce *with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and *with the Indian Tribes*" (Art. I, Sec. 8, Cl. 3). This clause has resulted in what is known as Congress's "plenary power" over Indian affairs, which means that Congress has the ultimate right to pass legislation governing Native Americans, even when that legislation conflicts with or abrogates Indian treaties. Let me look into it a little further though


Great question, and nice input, Vic; it would be interesting to learn whether any tribe has attempted to test the commerce clause element, and what the government's response/determination was. I imagine some enterprising attorney could make a strong case in the public space, but might not get far in an actual courtroom.


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## LORD PUFFER (Dec 27, 2006)

ResIpsa said:


> Hmmm...this is an interesting question, and I'll try to research it a little bit. Off the top of my head I'd say No, Native Americans cannot legally purchase cuban cigars.
> 
> Native American reservations are soverign land, that is true. However, all Native Americans are also *American *citizens and thus subject to all American laws including the embargo. They are no different than an American citizen who holds dual French (italian, polish etc.) citizenship
> 
> The question of whether a tribe could legally open a cuban cigar store on a Native American reservation is a little more complex. While the reservations are soverign land, they are not COMPLETELY exempt from oversight by the U.S. government. One of the areas in which they are limited is in their right to deal with foreign governments, and since the embargo is a foreign policy, I'd say no, you cannot sell cuban cigars even on a Native American reservation. The tribes can regulate only their domestic relations, not foreign relations. The Commerce Clause of the U.S. Constitution, provides that "Congress shall have the Power &#8230; *to regulate Commerce *with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and *with the Indian Tribes*" (Art. I, Sec. 8, Cl. 3). This clause has resulted in what is known as Congress's "plenary power" over Indian affairs, which means that Congress has the ultimate right to pass legislation governing Native Americans, even when that legislation conflicts with or abrogates Indian treaties. Let me look into it a little further though


I do know that some laws don't apply to them, such as their freedom to eat the peyote cactus. I think you may have covered that under domestic relations. I think you are correct on that the US can conduct ALL foreign affairs, including trade w/ Cooba.


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## shaggy (Dec 28, 2006)

well here in canada the natives feel that the government has absolutely no say over them in any way. in their view they are under no authority of the canadian government and actually feel that they should have authority over Canada. Now if some american natives felt the same and had the cajones they may try to do it. They could easily run the stock over the boarder in cornwall to load up their stores but i am pretty sure that U.S. government would not look very kindly on it and shut it down pretty quickly. Here in Canada we buy ciggerettes from the reserve with no tax and i pretty sure the government doesnt like it but i think the US government is not as forgiving and would not look the other way if they decided to get into cubans


:2


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## Twill413 (Jul 19, 2006)

But you would not be able to leave the reservation with Cubans as a US citizen even if this were allowed on the reservation. They would have to have lockers for you if you wanted to keep anything on hand, or you buy what you smoke. Other wise I could see a Government choke point coming off the reservation in which you say goodbye to all the CCs you had in your car.


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## shaggy (Dec 28, 2006)

as per another thread on here, even if they were soverign nations u.s. citizens still cannot pocess or consume anything from cuba at home or abroad. so no matter how you slice it it still sucks for you guys


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## dayplanner (Dec 11, 1997)

Twill413 said:


> But you would not be able to leave the reservation with Cubans as a US citizen even if this were allowed on the reservation. They would have to have lockers for you if you wanted to keep anything on hand, or you buy what you smoke. Other wise I could see a Government choke point coming off the reservation in which you say goodbye to all the CCs you had in your car.


Even if it were legal for the native americans to possess them and sell them, it would still be illegal for non-native americans to buy them and smoke them on the reservation. Americans cannot legally possess or smoke cuban cigars anywhere in the world.

I'm 1/16th native american...can I get in on this deal? :u


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## Twill413 (Jul 19, 2006)

whiteboard said:


> Even if it were legal for the native americans to possess them and sell them, it would still be illegal for non-native americans to buy them and smoke them on the reservation. Americans cannot legally possess or smoke cuban cigars anywhere in the world.
> 
> I'm 1/16th native american...can I get in on this deal? :u


Never really thought of that either. Good point. Looks like another nail in the coffin.


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## kvm (Sep 7, 2005)

Thanks Vic. You may be right. It may be illegal due to the regulate commerce clause. Some quick searching seems to indicate that the states have no control, only the Feds but how much wasn't very clear.



shaggy said:


> well here in canada the natives feel that the government has absolutely no say over them in any way. in their view they are under no authority of the canadian government and actually feel that they should have authority over Canada. Now if some american natives felt the same and had the cajones they may try to do it. They could easily run the stock over the boarder in cornwall to load up their stores but i am pretty sure that U.S. government would not look very kindly on it and shut it down pretty quickly. Here in Canada we buy ciggerettes from the reserve with no tax and i pretty sure the government doesnt like it but i think the US government is not as forgiving and would not look the other way if they decided to get into cubans
> 
> :2


The same here in NY and your right, I'm sure the government would not be happy if the nations became a distributor for Habanos S.A. :r 
However they probably would ignore an individual. Imagine responding to a Customs confiscation notice with "Yes they are mine. Pack them back up and get them here. If you damaged them you'll pay!"



Twill413 said:


> But you would not be able to leave the reservation with Cubans as a US citizen even if this were allowed on the reservation. They would have to have lockers for you if you wanted to keep anything on hand, or you buy what you smoke. Other wise I could see a Government choke point coming off the reservation in which you say goodbye to all the CCs you had in your car.


The reservations are so open you can easily pull off the road to stop at a diner and find you are on reservation land. The give away here in NY is seeing ashtrays on the table.



whiteboard said:


> Even if it were legal for the native americans to possess them and sell them, it would still be illegal for non-native americans to buy them and smoke them on the reservation. Americans cannot legally possess or smoke cuban cigars anywhere in the world.
> 
> I'm 1/16th native american...can I get in on this deal? :u


True... However I've heard some people seem to ignore this law and I don't believe state or local police agencies are allowed to enter the reservations at will. You might get a nice discount.


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## par (May 22, 2005)

Interesting thread!

i had to go and look up the legal framework for the indian nations, fascinating reading indeed. It appears that this is a bit murky territory exactly how much soverignity the indians really have since congress (and the supreme court) decided that they are wardens of the federal government. In fact no indian nation can sue a state or the federal government without the approval of the federal government (bureau of indian affairs). Talk about an interesting catch-22!

I copied this text from a social studies class i found online:
_American Indian tribes, however, do not enjoy absolute sovereignty. Indian tribes do not exercise international independence (but neither do state governments). They are domestic independent nations (nations within a nation, having a nation-to-nation relationship with the Federal Government). Additionally, the Federal Government has a unique trust of fiduciary responsibility for American Indian tribes and their interests and assets, as a result of treaties which stressed "services such as education, health, etc., in exchange for land."_

it clearly defines that the federal tax code applies to native americans and since the cuban embargo is codified throug the tax laws i think that the B&M idea on indian land is a non-starter as far as a mechanism to obtain cuban cigars.

interesting idea though!


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## Malik23 (Sep 21, 2006)

I'm obviously not an expert on this, but from what I understand, the general rule with regards to Indian Reservation exceptions to law is that they do not need to follow state laws, but federal laws are still enforced. Since tobacco and gambling are regulated on a state by state basis, they can sell cigs without state taxes added in, and allow gambling even where prohibited by the state they are in. However, any foreign relations are governed at the federal level, so the reservations would still fall under that jurisdiction, and need to abide by the law.


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

Believe me, if Native Americans could sell Cuban Cigars, they would be. Perhaps they could have their own Int’l Airport, and then maybe they could? Flights would land directly on their sovereign land and not have to deal with the embargo. Either way, it’s still against the law to smoke a Cuban cigar, even on foreign land…


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