# Please Help Out A Neophyte Chump



## Bill Batty (Jun 12, 2015)

Been smoking cigars for a while now and know what I like and what I don't. Recently the chance to buy some Cubans came up from a guy who isn't exactly a stranger but not a close friend, either. It wasn't a big purchase and nothing about him suggested that he was all that shady. I'd never attempted to smoke a Cuban cigar outside of one trip to the UK.

They were Cohibas, Edicion Limitadas 2015. When I got them home and did some online checking, there were clearly discrepancies with the labels. There was no comma between the words 'Havana' and 'Cuba' and the 'H' and 'C' were different from the legit examples online.

I got back to the guy questioning him politely, and his response was: " They are Cuban cigars made in the factory and the discrepancies are important to some people and not to others. I've bought boxes in the official stores with seals and holograms and everything signed, sealed and delivered and the cigars sucked. Let's not let a comma stand between our friendship."

This is clearly BS, correct, and I was had? My concern isn't for getting screwed, as it was only five cigars that I purchased and I can chalk it up to experience. I just don't want to write this guy off on the odd chance that he knows more than I do. Is there any chance that 'legitimate' Cohibas could have varying kinds of labels and could there ever be an example of the authentic item being put out with a comma between the words 'Havana' and 'Cuba' ?


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## jeffmcrobert (Sep 3, 2015)

Hard to determine without pics of bands or actual cigars. Also didnt think a 2015 el existed. I know the robusto suprema was 2014? Maybe im mistaken...


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## elco69 (May 1, 2013)

Bill Batty said:


> Been smoking cigars for a while now and know what I like and what I don't. Recently the chance to buy some Cubans came up from a guy who isn't exactly a stranger but not a close friend, either. It wasn't a big purchase and nothing about him suggested that he was all that shady. I'd never attempted to smoke a Cuban cigar outside of one trip to the UK.
> 
> They were Cohibas, Edicion Limitadas 2015. When I got them home and did some online checking, there were clearly discrepancies with the labels. There was no comma between the words 'Havana' and 'Cuba' and the 'H' and 'C' were different from the legit examples online.
> 
> ...


Need pics. Unfortunately, friend or not, if I don't know the vendor, I am assume they are fake until proven legit.


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## NormH3 (Apr 20, 2015)

From all that I have read here I think your acquaintance has been had. You may be a victim of the trickle down effect. I posted a photo of a Cohiba band not long ago here and it was unanimously determined to be a fake. Fortunately for me, the cigar was a freebee. I was informed by private message that it's not a good idea to smoke suspicious cigars. Just passing along my experience.


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## Bill Batty (Jun 12, 2015)




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## jeffmcrobert (Sep 3, 2015)

Fake. Sorry.


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## Oldmso54 (Jul 31, 2010)

The very reliable Cuban Cigar Website lists the Edicion Limitada as a 2014 release. Halfwheel also published a list of new Cuban cigars for 2015 and there isn't a Cohiba Edicion Limitada listed. Those are two generaly accepted places of legitimate Cuban cigar info so ....


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## jeffmcrobert (Sep 3, 2015)

Yep no 2015 cuban cohiba el piramide


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## Bill Batty (Jun 12, 2015)

No worries, as it's not my first trip to the rodeo .. or whatever that stupid expression is. The get-together with this guy wasn't even about buying Cuban cigars, and I honestly think that he might be sincere in his belief that they are real. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't wrong in pointing out my suspicions and just letting him go on his way (with my money, of course, but I've made worse moves in the past.)


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## NormH3 (Apr 20, 2015)

Very unfortunate. I would still point out the errors to him. I don't think he can argue with the facts that have been presented. At that point the ball is in his court. A refund on his part would go a long way.


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## Oldmso54 (Jul 31, 2010)

Hey Bill - for what it's worth, smoke the cigars and if you like them then that's good. I sat around one night with 3 pretty knowledgable and experienced cigar guys smoking a couple of Cohiba Esplendidos. We were pretty sure (like 99.99%) that one of them was fake and the other legit. By the end of the night we couldn't decide which one we liked better, the suspected fake or the suspected real deal. 

Fact is yours may turn out to be pretty tasty cigars regardless of their pedigree.


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## Bill Batty (Jun 12, 2015)

You know, this is more a reassurance of going with my gut instinct on things. The guy was kind of a lonely character and I felt bad for him. I did smoke one of them there. He clearly has more invested in cigars than me and had purchased entire boxes of Cohibas from somebody .. so I didn't want to question his knowledge. But it burned unevenly and had a hole in it that sunk straight through once the ash reached. I figured maybe he had a problem with beetles, as these particular sticks were loose and unwrapped in his humidor .. and I honestly didn't think he was trying to pull one over on me, so I let it go to be polite.

I don't even care that they're fakes .. The only thing that really bothered me about it was that he didn't offer to refund me when I pointed these things out. I wouldn't have even taken my money back, I don't think, but it would have been reassurance on his intentions. Oh well, live and learn.


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## StogieNinja (Jul 29, 2009)

It's though when you find out a friend has spent good, hard-earned money on fakes. It's even tougher when you try to explain it and they won't listen.


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## elco69 (May 1, 2013)

Sorry they turned out fake especially when they come from a friend who paid for them. Just my 2 cents, I wouldn't smoke them as I have seen some really bad autopsy's of knock off cigars, plastic, hair, etc.


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## PuroTrader (Sep 12, 2015)

Yes, Sorry to say that is 100% fake. We published a piece not long ago on spotting fakes. The above referred sites are a great resource! Also, on instagram there is a feed called "cigar enforcer" which does a great job of educating people on spotting fakes. Check it out if you get the chance


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## argonaut (Oct 6, 2015)

I don't want to get all Psych 101 on a guy I've never even met, but I don't think this is a case of a guy who got hoodwinked and now doesn't want to hear the truth because it embarrasses him and/or will piss him off to know he got ripped off. I believe most folks who were genuinely unaware that something they sold to an acquaintance was counterfeit would at least talk through the evidence and concerns with you for both of your sakes, and not try to brush it off so quickly (and certainly not with a passive-aggressive threat about how it might be "friendship-ending" if you were to pursue it). I also think most folks would at least address the issue of a refund or a partial refund (even if only to say "hey, I'm sorry, but I believe they're real and I can't offer you a refund").

Since he's arrogantly put himself out there as someone with experience buying directly from the factory and having familiarity with the holograms and all that, if I were you I would write him a note saying that you recognize how much he likes Cuban cigars, so he should know for future reference that there was no actual 2015 Cuban Cohiba El Pyramide and so he should avoid buying them again because they are absolutely and definitely fake, and not just a label "discrepancy". Make that point very clear, and his response will reveal his true character. If he offers nothing but a stonewall and excuses, then I would just write him off, content at least in being sure he knows that YOU know. Hopefully it would go the other way though, and he would acknowledge the truth and talk it through with you. Either way, it sounds like you're being the better man here, so kudos to you.


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## Bill Batty (Jun 12, 2015)

Well, maybe I'm not that much better a man. It did get under my skin and I did write him back, borrowing some of your wording:

OK ____. Sorry if I offended. At the end of the day I only bought five of the things from you and it isn't about the money. I recognize how much you enjoy the Cubans and, label "discrepancies" aside, there were no actual 2015 Cuban Cohiba El Pyramides made .. it's a supremely easy fact to verify. They are absolutely and definitely fake. No hard feelings though and best of luck going forward.


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## Bill Batty (Jun 12, 2015)

Wrapping up (no pun intended) this little tale of intrigue. The guy got back to me with the following response:

.. I’m at a loss to understand why you think that these cigars are to be considered “fake”. If they came out of the front or the back of a factory does it really matter? Are you smoking a comma? I fully support these struggling musicians who are trying to make a few bucks during their tours as their salaries are expropriated by the Cuban government. These are Cuban cigars made with Cuban tobacco and Cuban knowhow and skills and I’m getting them as soon as they get off the boat. No less a discerning smoker than ______ who has gotten many boxes from me is in total agreement with me that these are good smokes. I’m truly sorry that you are not enjoying the Pyramides and I’d me happy to give you my totally fake, rolled up in the Bronx by some fading abuelito Esplendidos instead. These are good smokes."

I wrote him back to explain my highly unusual definition of "fake" .. a cigar with a label on it suggesting that it comes from a well-known and expensive manufacturer, when in fact it comes from nowhere near there. I suppose I should be more careful with my use of the English language .. and trust my instincts in knowing who is full of sh*t upon first meeting. Oh well, live and learn .. time for me to fulfill that "bigger man" thing and move on, being thankful that I didn't buy a full box from this guy and necessitating my heading over to his place and performing some free dental work.


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## concig (Mar 25, 2013)

It is not just the missing comma , nothing on that label is same as on the genuine label.Not a single letter is same,as well as a few other things.


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## concig (Mar 25, 2013)

Here you can see the correct cohiba standard band D 
http://www.cubancigarwebsite.com/brand.aspx?brand=Cohiba


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## Bird-Dog (Oct 16, 2009)

Bill Batty said:


> Wrapping up (no pun intended) this little tale of intrigue. The guy got back to me with the following response:
> 
> .. I'm at a loss to understand why you think that these cigars are to be considered "fake". If they came out of the front or the back of a factory does it really matter? Are you smoking a comma? I fully support these struggling musicians who are trying to make a few bucks during their tours as their salaries are expropriated by the Cuban government. These are Cuban cigars made with Cuban tobacco and Cuban knowhow and skills and I'm getting them as soon as they get off the boat. No less a discerning smoker than ______ who has gotten many boxes from me is in total agreement with me that these are good smokes. I'm truly sorry that you are not enjoying the Pyramides and I'd me happy to give you my totally fake, rolled up in the Bronx by some fading abuelito Esplendidos instead. These are good smokes."
> 
> I wrote him back to explain my highly unusual definition of "fake" .. a cigar with a label on it suggesting that it comes from a well-known and expensive manufacturer, when in fact it comes from nowhere near there. I suppose I should be more careful with my use of the English language .. and trust my instincts in knowing who is full of sh*t upon first meeting. Oh well, live and learn .. time for me to fulfill that "bigger man" thing and move on, being thankful that I didn't buy a full box from this guy and necessitating my heading over to his place and performing some free dental work.


The guy is a BS artist. A scammer, plain and simple. There is no gray area where cigars not produced and verified by HSA, "out of the front", are anything other than counterfeit. Even if they were produced in Cuba with Cuban tobacco, which I highly doubt, they are not Cohibas. They are not what he represented them to be, period!

And frankly, his defense screams loud and clear that he knowingly sold you fakes. This was no case of some innocent clueless dupe passing along cigars he believed to be genuine. He knew he was selling fakes from the onset. He just doesn't like being caught at it.

Pull that BS in certain circles, and the guy would find himself with two broken kneecaps... deservedly.

Feel free to tell the scumbag I said so!


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## concig (Mar 25, 2013)

curmudgeonista said:


> He knew he was selling fakes from the onset.


+1000
Actually I would say that anyone who sells fakes knows it.


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## argonaut (Oct 6, 2015)

Bill Batty said:


> I wrote him back to explain my highly unusual definition of "fake" .. a cigar with a label on it suggesting that it comes from a well-known and expensive manufacturer, when in fact it comes from nowhere near there. I suppose I should be more careful with my use of the English language .. and trust my instincts in knowing who is full of sh*t upon first meeting.


Yeah, he's definitely using semantics to try to slither away from what he did. If you had said they were "counterfeit Cohibas" instead of "fake Cubans", he may have had less room to maneuver but he's the kind of person who would still try to both deny and justify at the same time anyway. As a side note though, I think it would be best for those of us in the cigar community to try to adopt use of the word "counterfeit" instead of "fake" when it comes to cases like this, since if they are in fact cigars made in Cuba (even though not made by the company they claim to be on the label), that makes a difference to some people (and in the minds of people like this guy, who is probably rationalizing to himself that he didn't rip you off because they are cigars from Cuba).

Anyway, I'm really sorry it worked out this way. You got ripped off and lied to, and he has to live his life knowing he's such a pathetic and inferior person. At least you've got your good character, sir!


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## concig (Mar 25, 2013)

A crook is always a crook no matter what word we adopt for fake/counterfreit cigars.
When someone is paying for a genuine brand cigar he must get what he's paying for.


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## Bill Batty (Jun 12, 2015)

I think this discussion would fit equally well in a forum on human psychology. At the end of the day this wasn't even about the transaction, which was unfortunate but relatively minor ($100). What got to me about it was, in fact, that it wasn't simply someone offering me a box of cigars on the street. This guy approached as a friend, and even hung out with me for a few hours. He was more than happy to BS about cigars, Cuba, other areas of life .. and as we sat there and I smoked one, my thought was "this burns unevenly and doesn't taste great .. but this guy really wanted to hang out and I'm not going to make an issue out of it." It was only afterward, when I quickly realized that they weren't real Cohibas, that I started thinking about the whole thing. Why go to such lengths for such a small transaction .. and who is able to lie in such a casual yet overt manner? I genuinely think he's the kind of person who believes his own lies .. buys into his own equivocation. This was far more troubling to me than getting taken for five fake (sorry .. 'counterfeit') cigars. Don't need this kind of insight to the human condition.


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## Bill Batty (Jun 12, 2015)

And, just for the sake of closure, this is the last message that I sent the guy in its entirety:

" I think it's best that we leave this one alone. You're equivocating here, end of story. It's admirable that you support struggling musicians, but you know as well as I do that these aren't authentic Cohiba cigars and that they came from neither the front nor back door of that factory. I'm a straight-forward guy, and as such told you that I knew little about Cuban cigars. Had you been genuine in saying "look .. these aren't real Cohibas, but they're Cuban and they're excellent in my opinion .." that would have been something different. But that wasn't what happened, and it was disappointing to discover that they weren't the real item and that, in fact, Cohiba Cuba didn't even produce an El Pyramide in 2015. 

If they are as good as you claim (and the one I did smoke had a hole in it that burned through) then why the need to put a fake label on it and pass it off as a genuine Cohiba? _______? ___________? Glad they're happy with the cigars, but not sure what it has to do with you being able to answer me this question, straight up: Are these cigars genuine Cuban Cohibas?

Anyway .. let's let it go. I'm not a confrontational kind of guy and I'm generally rather mild-mannered, so none of this is very comfortable for me. I never asked for my money back and you never offered. We were working under a different kind of assumption, I suppose."


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## cigarmax (Feb 23, 2011)

Two things that are real. The cigars are fake, the seller is a dick.


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## StogieNinja (Jul 29, 2009)

I don't think this is a case of the seller intentionally selling fakes. I think he really thinks someone took real Cohibas out of the factory and put fake bands on them. I think he really was taken in by whatever story he was told and is genuinely clinging to the belief that these are real, despite the hard evidence to the contrary.

Which, in many ways, is even sadder.


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## Bill Batty (Jun 12, 2015)

I don't believe he would have equivocated quite as much were this his genuine belief. He simply would have said this from the outset .. that these smokes are from the Cohiba factory and smuggled out then fitted with fake bands. Of course this makes no sense in any way. Instead he talks around the simple facts and pretends not to know why anyone would take offense at paying the same price for counterfeited cigars. And offers no explanation for how he determines that these cigars are still worth $20 a pop. I think it's more a case of someone who operates on such an ongoing, ingrained level of BS, he can't distinguish between what's true and a lie anymore. And this is the troubling, sad element to all of it.


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## Bird-Dog (Oct 16, 2009)

@StogieNinja, @Bill Batty

You're both judging this schmuck by conventional standards that you would hold yourself to. But, for someone without any compunction about lying, nor any remorse, it's a different story.

Profile of the Sociopath


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## deke (Aug 19, 2013)

Bill Batty said:


> But it burned unevenly and had a hole in it that sunk straight through once the ash reached.


The real Cohibas I have bought burn wonderfully.


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## Chad Vegas (Sep 29, 2015)

You sir have been had. Post pics here first & you will avoid getting burned.


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## concig (Mar 25, 2013)

StogieNinja said:


> I don't think this is a case of the seller intentionally selling fakes. I think he really thinks someone took real Cohibas out of the factory and put fake bands on them. I think he really was taken in by whatever story he was told and is genuinely clinging to the belief that these are real, despite the hard evidence to the contrary.
> 
> Which, in many ways, is even sadder.


A professional should always know what he is selling and be honest to his customers.
The two simple,golden rules for healthy business and happy customers imo.


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## StogieNinja (Jul 29, 2009)

curmudgeonista said:


> @StogieNinja, @Bill Batty
> 
> You're both judging this schmuck by conventional standards that you would hold yourself to. But, for someone without any compunction about lying, nor any remorse, it's a different story.
> 
> Profile of the Sociopath


I was just speculating, your suggestion is equally plausible I'll grant.



concig said:


> A professional should always know what he is selling and be honest to his customers.
> The two simple,golden rules for healthy business and happy customers imo.


This guy is clearly not a professional.


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## Bill Batty (Jun 12, 2015)

Yeah, he's not a professional and I don't know him well but he clearly has his own deep-seated issues that far exceed me being ripped off for a hundred bucks. Not sure if he's a sociopath, exactly, but the same odd, "what just happened here?" reaction when one encounters a sociopath was what caused me to post here to check things out from the cigar-angle and make sure I wasn't overreacting. The truly odd aspect for me was the amount of time he spent with me and apparent desire to be "friends" .. As another acquaintance once remarked to me "if you knew the true number of people just hanging on by a thread out there, it would sober you up in a hurry."


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