# The Great Fredster Blind Taste Test



## moki

For those of you who are not sure what this thread is about, here's a little background:

*Summary*

Fredster has claimed that he can tell a Cuban cigar from a non-Cuban cigar easily, and further that he can easily distinguish between the various marca blends of Cuban cigars. He has also stated that he has yet to find _any_ non-Cuban cigar that he finds impressive or worth the money. So pursuant to that...

Fredster is being challenged to undertake an experiment in blind cigar taste testing, put together by yours truly, the evil Dr. Moki. 10 individually bagged & numbered unbanded cigars carefully plucked from the dungeons of Dr. Moki's humi-cave will be sent to him.

As soon as they arrive, he will smoke them at his leisure, in any order he chooses, and post the results here.

*The Details*

Fredster has agreed to not attempt to determine the specifics of any of the cigars by any means other than simply smoking them and tasting them (ie, no examining them, looking them up in references, etc.). This is about taste, not research! For each cigar, he will post:

1) The cigar number he smoked

2) Any tasting notes he chooses to share on the cigar as he smokes it

3) Whether he enjoyed the cigar or not, in the form a rating of the cigar from 1-10 (10 being the best)

4) His guess as to the country of origin of the cigar in terms of being Cuban or non-Cuban

5) His guess at the specific cigar he smoked in terms of the marca

*The Mission*

The mission, should Fredster choose to accept it, is to be able to get the country of origin (in terms of being Cuban or non-Cuban) correct on 7 out of 10 of the cigars. After all, if you claim to love the taste of cigars from a particular country, you should be able to pick out that taste easily, right?

Remember that the baseline score of 5/10 correct is a coin-flip, the results you could expect to get if you just randomly guessed the origins in terms of Cuban/non-Cuban for each cigar. So our bar is set a tad higher than this (though arguably, one might insist on a perfect 10/10 score to make the aforementioned claims, we're a bit more lenient)!

The specific marca information is tangental to the test, and doesn't affect the wager at all, but since he says he can pick it out easily, we might as well have him do that too!

The wager is $100; so if Fredster manages to get 7/10 or more correct (in terms of Cuban or non-Cuban), he will not only get 10 free cigars, but also $100 to boot! If he loses, he's essentially just reimbursing me for the cost of the cigars I sent him.

Because money is involved, a neutral third party still be sent the list of cigars before the test begins, so the results can be independently confirmed.

*What say you, Fredster?*



Fredster said:


> Sorry should have been more specific. No I didn't mean necessarily Dunhills, Davidoffs, etc. I just meant some of my personal favs that are on, have no NC rival IMO. Some of my current favs include mature (5-10 years)Upmann: Sir Winston, #2, Cohiba: Coronas Especials, RA: Gigantis. What I mean by "on" is the blend is right, they have enough age (and are not sick), and construction is good. Cuban cigars are not as consistant as NC. The 06 and 07 cigars are very close though IMO.
> 
> I have yet to have any NC cigar really impress me or make me think it was worth the $$$. I have a locker at a local B&M. It's accross the street from my office so it's a convenient smoking place for me besides at my house. I go there at lunch a lot.


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## floydpink

Here we go! Fredster is in for one heck of a treat.

The one I participated in and the one I just watched both had the same results;

cigars=7, tester=3

I will be shocked to see someone get 7 for 10


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## DennisP

Guessing that the cigars are going to be worth more than $100 I'd think he doesn't have much to lose.

Considering the last two I've seen have gotten 3/10 correct I'd think that 7/10 is possible from dumb luck on occasion as well.


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## moki

DennisP said:


> Considering the last two I've seen have gotten 3/10 correct I'd think that 7/10 is possible from dumb luck on occasion as well.


Agreed -- that is a risk that I take... but that's okay, because regardless of the result, I think it will be an entertaining and educational experience.


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## SmokinApe

This should be good...


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## floydpink

Anyone want a side bet? I'll take the cigars.


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## Fredster

Yeah, I'm in. I'll PM you my addy.



moki said:


> For those of you who are not sure what this thread is about, here's a little background:
> 
> *Summary*
> 
> Fredster has claimed that he can tell a Cuban cigar from a non-Cuban cigar easily, and further that he can easily distinguish between the various marca blends of Cuban cigars. He has also stated that he has yet to find _any_ non-Cuban cigar that he finds impressive or worth the money. So pursuant to that...
> 
> Fredster is being challenged to undertake an experiment in blind cigar taste testing, put together by yours truly, the evil Dr. Moki. 10 individually bagged & numbered unbanded cigars carefully plucked from the dungeons of Dr. Moki's humi-cave will be sent to him.
> 
> As soon as they arrive, he will smoke them at his leisure, in any order he chooses, and post the results here.
> 
> *The Details*
> 
> Fredster has agreed to not attempt to determine the specifics of any of the cigars by any means other than simply smoking them and tasting them (ie, no examining them, looking them up in references, etc.). This is about taste, not research! For each cigar, he will post:
> 
> 1) The cigar number he smoked
> 
> 2) Any tasting notes he chooses to share on the cigar as he smokes it
> 
> 3) Whether he enjoyed the cigar or not, in the form a rating of the cigar from 1-10 (10 being the best)
> 
> 4) His guess as to the country of origin of the cigar in terms of being Cuban or non-Cuban
> 
> 5) His guess at the specific cigar he smoked in terms of the marca
> 
> *The Mission*
> 
> The mission, should Fredster choose to accept it, is to be able to get the country of origin (in terms of being Cuban or non-Cuban) correct on 7 out of 10 of the cigars. After all, if you claim to love the taste of cigars from a particular country, you should be able to pick out that taste easily, right?
> 
> Remember that the baseline score of 5/10 correct is a coin-flop, the results you could expect to get if you just randomly guessed the origins in terms of Cuban/non-Cuban for each cigar. So our bar is set a tad higher than this (though arguably, one might insist on a perfect 10/10 score to make the aforementioned claims, we're a bit more lenient)!
> 
> The specific marca information is tangental to the test, and doesn't affect the wager at all, but since he says he can pick it out easily, we might as well have him do that too!
> 
> The wager is $100; so if Fredster manages to get 7/10 or more correct, he will not only get 10 free cigars, but also $100 to boot! If he loses, he's essentially just reimbursing me for the cost of the cigars I sent him.
> 
> Because money is involved, a neutral third party still be sent the list of cigars before the test begins, so the results can be independently confirmed.
> 
> *What say you, Fredster?*


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## moki

Fredster said:


> Yeah, I'm in. I'll PM you my addy.


wOOt! Well played, sir! If it's okay with you, I'd like to pick icehog3 as the person who is sent the "escrow" list of cigars in the test. He will not disclose what cigars are on the list to _anyone_, he's just serving as an independent auditor of sorts. Are you agreeable?


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## DennisP

Awesome. I love following these challenges.


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## Blueface

Whatever happened to the Popcorn icon?
Man I could use that one now.
Looking forward to this.
Come on Fred!!! You can do it!


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## Da Klugs

moki said:


> Because money is involved, a neutral third party still be sent the list of cigars before the test begins, so the results can be independently confirmed.
> [/b]


Might I suggest our fearless leader PDS. It's his board and has proven to be above reproach.


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## Boston_Dude05

Great idea! This should be very good. Will be following this closely. This is a major throwdown of sorts I suppose. I'm rooting for Fredster as I believe CCs have the edge in taste and are distinctive.


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## hollywood

WHEN Fred get's the win. Yes ... WHEN. I think there should be more at stake than just $100. Perhaps ....

no more condescending argumentative comments and challenges to elders who obviously know much more now than most of us will ever learn in a lifetime!?!?:2


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## The Professor

hollywood said:


> WHEN Fred get's the win. Yes ... WHEN. I think there should be more at stake than just $100. Perhaps ....
> 
> no more condescending argumentative comments and challenges to elders who obviously know much more now than most of us will ever learn in a lifetime!?!?:2


Fred's old and all; but elderly?  :chk j/k

Rock on, Fred! Not that you need it, but I'm pulling for you!!! :tu :ss


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## str8edg

I look forward to seeing what happens here!!


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## DBall

God, I just love these threads. :tu

Thanks for this... I'm subscribed to this thread now.


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## moki

hollywood said:


> WHEN Fred get's the win. Yes ... WHEN. I think there should be more at stake than just $100. Perhaps ....
> 
> no more condescending argumentative comments and challenges to elders who obviously know much more now than most of us will ever learn in a lifetime!?!?:2


I'd be fine with that -- as long as part of the bargain is that if he gets it wrong, we won't hear any condescending hyperbolic fallacious statements on the inherent superiority of Cuban cigars? 

It cuts both ways... but I really wasn't hoping to turn this into a grudge match -- please understand that I have a great affinity for a number of Cuban cigar marcas... to me it is about the broad-brush statements more than "NC vs. C". It's all in good fun, and in the spirit of learning, and challenging our preconceived notions.

Fredster may very well ace the test, and will be showered with well-deserved accolades. However the real thing for me here is that the journey is the reward. I think the process of doing this blind taste test will be far, far more interesting for all involved than the result.

Just my two cents!


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## Lanthor

Cheers Fred for putting yourself out there, and to Moki for putting his theory out there as well.

How do you get around the triple cap, I know you are not to inspect but you got to look at the thing to clip it right?


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## moki

Lanthor said:


> Cheers Fred for putting yourself out there, and to Moki for putting his theory out there as well.
> 
> How do you get around the triple cap, I know you are not to inspect but you got to look at the thing to clip it right?


Yes, they will be clipped. Which is good and bad... because many non-Cuban cigars have triple caps, and other features that look identical to Cuban cigars, and thus can throw people off in the wrong direction if empirical data is used.

So to be fair and neutral, the caps will be pre-cut. But he's not supposed to be examining the cigars at all anyway... just smoking them and tasting them. This is a taste test, not a "research in Min Ron Nee" test.


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## Old Sailor

Fantastic!! I'll be following this one.:tu:tu


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## moki

Da Klugs said:


> Might I suggest our fearless leader PDS. It's his board and has proven to be above reproach.


I think icehog3 is a fine choice... I'm just waiting on Fredster's agreement to him as an "escrow" intermediary, and also waiting on him to PM me his address. Then we're off! 

I do want to say that no matter how the results of this pan out, props to Fredster for stepping up to the plate with class, and agreeing to participate!

I think regardless of outcome, this will be a more interesting thread than the "I bought these cigars on a cruise in the Caribbean; are they fake?" we see often!


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## Mbraud4

Wow, this will be fun to watch. Fredster is a veteren and I would be interested to see the outcome. I think its no easy task, but if someone were to outdo moki's test...Fred is a prime canidate


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## DragonMan

I can't wait to see the results!! Thanks for doing this Moki and Fredster!! :tu :tu


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## floydpink

I think the fact that an elder is participating might possibly give more validity than a newer member like me as they are much more qualified to know the difference from years of experience.

Personally, I salute Fred for doing this.


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## newcigarz

Looks like the Fredster Fan Club is already forming :r


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## hollywood

moki said:


> I'd be fine with that -- as long as part of the bargain is that if he gets it wrong, we won't hear any condescending hyperbolic fallacious statements on the inherent superiority of Cuban cigars?
> 
> It cuts both ways... but I really wasn't hoping to turn this into a grudge match -- please understand that I have a great affinity for a number of Cuban cigar marcas... to me it is about the broad-brush statements more than "NC vs. C". It's all in good fun, and in the spirit of learning, and challenging our preconceived notions.
> 
> Fredster may very well ace the test, and will be showered with well-deserved accolades. However the real thing for me here is that the journey is the reward. I think the process of doing this blind taste test will be far, far more interesting for all involved than the result.
> 
> Just my two cents!


fair enough. i am just as much a newb as the next guy; and would almost certainly fail. kudos to Fred for jumping in on this. my:2 is on the taste buds!


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## mash

I have another suggestion. Since we are putting Tom forward as the escrow intermediary, why not let him pick the cigars? He is clearly neutral here, the sticks can be sent to him for band removal or he can purchase them at Moki's expense, he can then forward them to Fred. If the test is whether Fred can pick CC from NC, doesn't this work?


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## floydpink

an optional purchase test?


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## moki

mash said:


> I have another suggestion. Since we are putting Tom forward as the escrow intermediary, why not let him pick the cigars? He is clearly neutral here, the sticks can be sent to him for band removal or he can purchase them at Moki's expense, he can then forward them to Fred. If the test is whether Fred can pick CC from NC, doesn't this work?


Nope, I'm picking the cigars -- if you'd like to run a blind taste test where you do something like that, you're more than welcome to. The deal has been presented, and accepted... no modifications to the deal, except as discussed between myself and Fredster, will be considered.

I'd be fine with sending them to Icehog3 to unband them and forward them on, but that seems a little excessive/extreme, and implies that I'm up to something nefarious... which I think is an unfounded thing to imply.

Let's not get too carried away here, shall we?


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## Ashcan Bill

Personally, I think this will be one of the most interesting threads I can recall on CS.

My hat is off to both you fine gentlemen! :tu


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## worr lord

Can't wait to see another one unfold


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## malinois1

Thanks Moki and Freddy. I can't wait to see the results and will be following this thread closely!:tu


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## nozero

Looks as though everybody is watching this one... I know I am.


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## Sandman

Ashcan Bill said:


> Personally, I think this will be one of the most interesting threads I can recall on CS.
> 
> :tu


Definitely will be interesting to say the least.

Thanks for taking the challenge Fredster.


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## BobbyRitz

moki said:


> Nope, I'm picking the cigars -- if you'd like to run a blind taste test where you do something like that, you're more than welcome to. The deal has been presented, and accepted... no modifications to the deal, except as discussed between myself and Fredster, will be considered.
> 
> I'd be fine with sending them to Icehog3 to unband them and forward them on, but that seems a little excessive/extreme, and implies that I'm up to something nefarious... which I think is an unfounded thing to imply.
> 
> Let's not get too carried away here, shall we?


Here come the original release Opus!!!

Way to keep this fairly even keel Andrew. Your affinity for NCs precedes you. I prefer CCs, but who the hell am I. I will keep tabs on this thread as well.

EDIT: Are you going to include similarly aged NCs and CCs?


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## moki

BobbyRitz said:


> Here come the original release Opus!!!
> 
> Way to keep this fairly even keel Andrew. Your affinity for NCs precedes you. I prefer CCs, but who the hell am I. I will keep tabs on this thread as well.


Actually, based on a recent inventory, I'm pretty close to 40/60 in terms of stock of Cuban and non-Cuban cigars. Don't mistake my affinity for not making broad-brush statements for not liking some Cuban cigars


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## BobbyRitz

moki said:


> Actually, based on a recent inventory, I'm pretty close to 40/60 in terms of stock of Cuban and non-Cuban cigars. Don't mistake my affinity for not making broad-brush statements for not liking some Cuban cigars


Please do not mistake my post Andrew, I know you have CCs as well. But it is true that your NC stock is deeper and likely consists of more aged cigars than the average NC smoker.

That said, for the blind taste test to be truly even keel, would you agree that similarly aged NCs and CCs should be included? For example, it would seem that a '96 NC should have a '96 CC counterpart.


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## DennisP

BobbyRitz said:


> Please do not mistake my post Andrew, I know you have CCs as well. But it is true that your NC stock is deeper and likely consists of more aged cigars than the average NC smoker.
> 
> That said, for the blind taste test to be truly even keel, would you agree that similarly aged NCs and CCs should be included? For example, it would seem that a '96 NC should have a '96 CC counterpart.


I don't understand the reasoning there. If someone said they only smoked Cubans from pre '96, then the Cubans included should be pre-'96, but should be paired against any cigar, NC pre-'96 or CC post '96.

The point is he's trying to disprove the thought that someone can tell country of origin by taste, not age, looks or anything else.

What I'd really like to see is actually doing this test blindfolded and the smoker never seeing the cigar. No matter how little examing goes into looking at the cigar, things such as wrapper color, size, etc just can't be ignored.


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## BobbyRitz

DennisP said:


> I don't understand the reasoning there. If someone said they only smoked Cubans from pre '96, then the Cubans included should be pre-'96, but should be paired against any cigar, NC pre-'96 or CC post '96.
> 
> The point is he's trying to disprove the thought that someone can tell country of origin by taste, not age, looks or anything else.
> 
> What I'd really like to see is actually doing this test blindfolded and the smoker never seeing the cigar. No matter how little examing goes into looking at the cigar, things such as wrapper color, size, etc just can't be ignored.


I tend to think age plays a role. I'm not suggesting that Andrew would do this, but the contest would be muddied in my opinion if 5 NCs from '96 were put up against 5 CCs from late '07.


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## moki

BobbyRitz said:


> Please do not mistake my post Andrew, I know you have CCs as well. But it is true that your NC stock is deeper and likely consists of more aged cigars than the average NC smoker.
> 
> That said, for the blind taste test to be truly even keel, would you agree that similarly aged NCs and CCs should be included? For example, it would seem that a '96 NC should have a '96 CC counterpart.


It doesn't matter. People who use the broad-brush "Cuban" and "non-Cuban" monikers to pigeonhole cigars should either be more careful about the language they use, or be prepared to see how well their stereotypes hold up against reality.


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## moki

Okay, the cigars have been picked, the bands removed, the caps cut off, and placed into numbered baggies, ready for shipment.

icehog3 has been sent a list of the cigars; he will not discuss the contents of that list, either specifically or broadly, either in public or in private, so please do not pester him about it.

I'm ready to roll, the package is all packaged up... just waiting on an address from Fredster!


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## BobbyRitz

moki said:


> It doesn't matter. People who use the broad-brush "Cuban" and "non-Cuban" monikers to pigeonhole cigars should either be more careful about the language they use, or be prepared to see how well their stereotypes hold up against reality.


It's your contest...I'll retire to the background.


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## Boston_Dude05

moki said:


> It doesn't matter. People who use the broad-brush "Cuban" and "non-Cuban" monikers to pigeonhole cigars should either be more careful about the language they use, or be prepared to see how well their stereotypes hold up against reality.


Seems Moki is confident Fredster will lose the challenge


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## DennisP

Boston_Dude05 said:


> Seems Moki is confident Fredster will lose the challenge


When you do something multiple times and the results are all the same you gain confidence.

Personally, I think 7/10 is going easy. If a wine expert was blindfolded and taken a test of French vs. Non-French or even White vs. Red would we say 70% is a good job?


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## ForestPuma

This should be very good. I am looking forward to the results and also to find out the cigars that are used for this test.


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## Ivory Tower

This is absolutely the longest icehog has gone without posting in a thread once his name is mentioned. Someone call him on the phone and see if he's OK.


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## moki

Boston_Dude05 said:


> Seems Moki is confident Fredster will lose the challenge


Not at all -- read my previous posts in the thread. I am not confident he will succeed, or confident he will fail.

I think it is the exercise of _doing_ that is the most important aspect of this taste test.


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## moki

DennisP said:


> When you do something multiple times and the results are all the same you gain confidence.
> 
> Personally, I think 7/10 is going easy. If a wine expert was blindfolded and taken a test of French vs. Non-French or even White vs. Red would we say 70% is a good job?


Taste is a very fickle mistress, and not all people taste things in quite the same way. A crucially important lesson is that that taste is subjective. Indeed, not only is taste subjective, but studies have shown that knowing the price of something can affect your real enjoyment of it. Here are a few things that I find contribute to the taste and enjoyment of cigars:

Taste is a very, very slippery thing. Time and time again, experts have been confounded when it comes to blind taste testing of anything... water, wine, beer, cigars... so there's no reason to feel bad at all. We all think we're better at it than we really are, myself included. Check some of these links out: The Subjectivity of Wine

"Expert" wine tasting: Round #1 -- Round #2 -- Round #3

"Expert" water tasting: Round #1 -- Round #2 -- Round #3

Tap water from municipal water supplies keeps winning in blind taste tests, yet people are paying $3 a bottle for Evian... there's definitely a logical disconnect there. People are buying by brand or label, not their taste buds. I like the statement from the last "water" article: In the final analysis, the price is all that separates them

When it comes to taste, the most important organ in your body is your brain, and the preconceptions it carries along with it. Your tongue and nose are mere appendages.


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## Da Klugs

Beachcougar said:


> This should be very good. I am looking forward to the results and also to find out the cigars that are used for this test.


Well you gotta figure a Fuente. Pepins cuz they are confusing. Probably thin RG of one of the blander Cuban Marcas and a really fresh robusto. 

It will be fun to watch. Blind is hard so no shame for Fred if he misses a few. If you have never done one of these its hard to describe the confusion you feel. It's like when you sense motion but your really not moving. No historical placeholders for the flavor memories.


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## Airborne RU

:tpd:

Yeah there will be a lot of Pepins to confuse Fred. This is as much of a mind game as it is a test of his taste buds. I suggest that Fred refresh his taste buds on Cubans in order to have a baseline for reference.

I'd say guessing the country of origin is fair, however guessing the marca is sort of a messed up bet. Marca guessing is just as much a game of familiarity and repetition, and if Fred doesn't smoke many NCs then its not really a game he can win.

For some reason I feel that Moki was baiting someone with his tread to enter this game. Its a funny way to try to broaden someone's horizons.


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## wayner123

I will be following this even more closely than the last one (if that's possible) and kudos to you Moki for pre-clipping. Whatever negatives there are in pre-clipping the benefits out weigh them. 

I too would love to see a blindfolded taste test, but if Fred does not examine the cigar in any way, that is close enough for me. He mentioned in the other thread he has been smoking CC's for a decade now so it is going to be awesome to see what his results are. The best factor will be, even if he gets them all correct, will he love any of the NC's when he claims he has had "no NC rival"?


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## Twill413

My only thought is this. If you enjoy something more because of the perceived value in a label, price you paid, or any other criteria you deem to add value to a product, you still enjoyed the product more. Perception is reality, and if you perceive something to taste better, than regardless of the empirical facts, what you have plus what your brain says you have means that it does actually taste better, to you. 

I know that isn't the main idea behind the tasting, but it was just something that I was thinking about. Whatever the outcome, this should be good fun to watch.


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## Tw3nty

As a newbie to this site, threads like this are why i want to become a life long member. I plan to follow this. you are a great group of guys, and I look forward to getting to know all of you.


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## moki

Da Klugs said:


> It will be fun to watch. Blind is hard so no shame for Fred if he misses a few. If you have never done one of these its hard to describe the confusion you feel. It's like when you sense motion but your really not moving. No historical placeholders for the flavor memories.


I absolutely agree with you -- blind taste testing is much harder than people think it is. There is absolutely no shame in getting some wrong at all.


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## pnoon

Airborne RU said:


> I suggest that Fred refresh his taste buds on Cubans in order to have a baseline for reference.


You obviously don't know Fred.


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## moki

Airborne RU said:


> I'd say guessing the country of origin is fair, however guessing the marca is sort of a messed up bet. Marca guessing is just as much a game of familiarity and repetition, and if Fred doesn't smoke many NCs then its not really a game he can win.


He's the one who made the claim, not me! For the record, I would only expect him to get the marca correct for cigars that are Cuban (since that was his claim).

And I agree with you that doing this is even harder than guessing Cuban vs. non-Cuban (which can also be just dumb luck, given that it's a coin-flip choice).

That said, I hope there is not too much more discussion on what might or might not be in the test. It's really not fair to speculate, and it will bias Fredster (for good or for ill).

So folks, please sit back, relax, and enjoy the ride. But let's keep the speculation to a minimum, to be fair to all involved.


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## moki

Twill413 said:


> My only thought is this. If you enjoy something more because of the perceived value in a label, price you paid, or any other criteria you deem to add value to a product, you still enjoyed the product more. Perception is reality, and if you perceive something to taste better, than regardless of the empirical facts, what you have plus what your brain says you have means that it does actually taste better, to you.


You are absolutely correct in this. If you enjoy a cigar because you know it's Cuban, and you think you're in an elite class smoking it, guess what? You really DO enjoy it more! It may not be because of the taste, but the enjoyment is still there (though it may be because of the taste, too, don't misunderstand me).

This has been shown in a number of wine taste tests, such as knowing the price of something affecting how much you enjoyed it and also wine scoring better when it's in a fancy bottle..

The examples are legion... but you're absolutely correct. Whether you like a cigar because of the trappings, or because of the taste, it still is real, measurable enjoyment. This is why establishing a _brand_ with caché is so important in the cigar business, and it is also why it is sold as a _lifestyle_ more than a product.

That's why blind taste tests are all the more interesting to do.


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## Deem

Very nice taste challenge you have put forth here Moki.
I applaud Fred stepping up to the challenge. As others have stated these are much more difficult than most perceive.
I'm pulling for you Fredster. Good Luck :ss


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## yayson

Interesting thread that I'll enjoy following, thanks to the participants and pundits for the infotainment!

Within the context of this thread or not, not particularly where I'm coming from, I just thought the statement odd:



Twill413 said:


> Perception is reality


If I walk into someone's office as Tom is walking out and the guy in the office, with his back to me, starts talking to me as if I were Tom (he doesn't know Tom left and I entered)... am I Tom then?

If someone approaches me from behind and says "Hey Tom..." even though I have the same build, clothing and hair as Tom, I'm not Tom dammit 

It's been my experience that perception can, and often does, cause mistakes, distorted 'realities'.

I do understand where you're coming from in your context, I just had to throw that in, I've developed a keen interest in perspective over my lifetime.


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## Lanthor

moki said:


> That said, I hope there is not too much more discussion on what might or might not be in the test. It's really not fair to speculate, and it will bias Fredster (for good or for ill).
> 
> So folks, please sit back, relax, and enjoy the ride. But let's keep the speculation to a minimum, to be fair to all involved.


Amen, lets quit micro analyzing the test, picking sides, predicting outcomes, and enjoy Fred and moki's thoughts and reviews.


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## icehog3

I have moki's list, and as he stated, won't discuss them with anyone. People can make their judgments about the test when moki chooses to reveal them. There is a lot of good discussion here, so I hope this will be seen for the trip more than the destination. I know that I don't have the cigar experience that Fred does, and I am looking forward to his thoughts on each cigar.



DennisP said:


> Guessing that the cigars are going to be worth more than $100 I'd think he doesn't have much to lose.
> 
> Considering the last two I've seen have gotten 3/10 correct I'd think that 7/10 is possible from dumb luck on occasion as well.


It seems that you already putting it forth that if Fred gets 7/10 (or better), it might just be "dumb luck". I think that's :BS....It is a challenge, and if Fred meets it, lets give him the credit due. :2



mash said:


> I have another suggestion. Since we are putting Tom forward as the escrow intermediary, why not let him pick the cigars? He is clearly neutral here, the sticks can be sent to him for band removal or he can purchase them at Moki's expense, he can then forward them to Fred. If the test is whether Fred can pick CC from NC, doesn't this work?


Probably the fairest way to do it would be to have a knowledgeable (read "not necessarily me") BOTL pick the cigars as a third party...but Fred has stepped up to the task as given, so that's how it will be.

I wish you much success Fred, but respect your stepping up to the plate regardless of the results.


----------



## Jbailey

This is my new favorite thread, a big thanks to Andrew and Fred for this. Without a doubt this will be a great learning experience. I'm no where near a veteran CC smoker. I do enjoy always trying something new regardless of CC or NC. It's always fun to find a new favorite smoke, the downside it always kills the wallet. 

Time to sit back and enjoy show.


----------



## moki

icehog3 said:


> It seems that you already putting it forth that if Fred gets 7/10 (or better), it might just be "dumb luck". I think that's :BS....It is a challenge, and if Fred meets it, lets give him the credit due. :2


Agreed -- and it cuts both ways. "Dumb luck" could cause you to choose poorly, too. So whatever the outcome, I think it's reasonable to just accept it for what it is, rather than try to make excuses one way or the other.

I agree with what you've stated... it's about the trip, not the destination. Road trip!!!!!! 



> Probably the fairest way to do it would be to have a knowledgeable (read "not necessarily me") BOTL pick the cigars as a third party...but Fred has stepped up to the task as given, so that's how it will be.


I disagree. The claim was made that a Cuban cigar would easily picked out of the pack; that's a very bold, broad statement, and as they say, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Thus if one will make such a claim, it shouldn't matter _what_ Cuban cigars are picked for the test.

Similarly, another broad statement was made about never finding a "NC" cigar that impressed him or he really enjoyed. Again, with a statement this bold and broad, it shouldn't matter _what_ non-Cuban cigars are put in the test.

If I want to pick particular Cuban cigars because I think he'll get 'em wrong, that's my right to do so. If I want to pick particular non-Cuban cigars that I think he might like, or might get wrong, then that's might right to do so as well. Indeed, that's really the point.

If his claims and verbiage were more specific, then there might be an argument for making the test less broad as well. But they weren't.

I'm sure that people who don't like the results of the test one way or another will try to pick the test apart to state why it is or is not fair, how it should better be done, etc. And that's fine, they can run their own tests if they like... but this one is about me picking 10 cigars, and Fredster reviewing them, and stating whether each is Cuban or not, and giving them a rating (as well as guessing the marca, if he believes the cigar is Cuban).

That's what the test is about... so let's try not to get distracted by what other people think it _should_ be, and sit back and enjoy the ride!



> I wish you much success Fred, but respect your stepping up to the plate regardless of the results.


Ditto that!


----------



## moki

BTW, if anyone has Fredster's address, and know it is current, if you could please PM it to me, that'd be much appreciated! I have everything ready to go, but I think Fredster may be otherwise occupied... and I'd like to get the package out tomorrow!


----------



## icehog3

As I said, Fred has stepped to the plate, so I have no issues with your terms, they were agreed to by both parties. I am looking forward to the journey whatever the outcome.


----------



## moki

icehog3 said:


> As I said, Fred has stepped to the plate, so I have no issues with your terms, they were agreed to by both parties. I am looking forward to the journey whatever the outcome.


----------



## Da Klugs

Valid points Andrew. But to have validity, certain things are assumed. For instance you frequently post about the inconsistencies of Cuban cigar quality. No arguments. We all experience it.. it sucks. One of the biggest negatives of the preference. Would be wrong to include any known deficient cigars in the test as when we experience it in the real world and know it is off, we either return the cigars or pitch them. Experiencing them blind in this instance is not a comparison that is relevant.

The care of the cigars is also an issue. Again to be a fair and valid test they need to have a known and good provenance. Age is another issue. Most die hard Cuban smokers typically smoke 10-15 year old cigars. Not sure using relatively fresh cigars is going to provide conclusive opinion changing results. Personally, I think the differences become more apparent with age.

Finally, the cigars should be readily available to the general public not custom rolls for Senior Fuente. You can just send those to me if you would like.


----------



## moki

I'm replying to this, but I think I'm done justifying the test that was agreed to. I think the test is eminently fair given how the discussion was framed, and I think third parties picking it apart is not useful, nor in the spirit of what the blind taste test should be about.

That is, it is about checking your preconceptions at the door, and seeing what the world has to offer you when the doors of perception have been cleansed. It is also about noting how making extremely broad, prejudicial statements is not useful, especially with something as subjective and variable as taste.



Da Klugs said:


> Valid points Andrew. But to have validity, certain things are assumed. For instance you frequently post about the inconsistencies of Cuban cigar quality. No arguments. We all experience it.. it sucks. One of the biggest negatives of the preference. Would be wrong to include any known deficient cigars in the test as when we experience it in the real world and know it is off, we either return the cigars or pitch them. Experiencing them blind in this instance is not a comparison that is relevant.


These are qualifiers that were not in evidence in the statements that Fredster made, so I find them irrelevant. See my post about extraordinary claims, the broadness of the statements made, etc. Obviously, I am not including any known-deficient cigars.



> The care of the cigars is also an issue. Again to be a fair and valid test they need to have a known and good provenance. Age is another issue. Most die hard Cuban smokers typically smoke 10-15 year old cigars. Not sure using relatively fresh cigars is going to provide conclusive opinion changing results. Personally, I think the differences become more apparent with age.


Again, you're adding qualifiers that were not on evidence in anything that Fredster stated, thus I see no reason to take them into consideration.

If all I did was pick cigars that Fredster is intimately familiar with, the test results would be about taste profile memorization, which is *completely useless.* Yes, I agree that anyone can memorize reasonably well the taste profile of specific cigar(s) that they have been consuming for a decade.

But all that proves is rote memorization can happen, even with taste... it does not justify the "I can taste a Cuban anywhere" claim, the "Cubans taste better" claim, nor the "I've never had a NC cigar that I found worthwhile" claim.

As for proper care/storage as well as provenance, that's a non-issue. I know the provenance of each cigar, and I know how they have been stored -- in two temperature and humidity controlled cabinets.



> Finally, the cigars should be readily available to the general public not custom rolls for Senior Fuente. You can just send those to me if you would like.


Why? If you want to do it that way in tests that you do, you're more than welcome to. If any qualifiers were issued regarding "regular production" non-Cuban (or Cuban) cigars, then you might have a point... but again, blanket statements were made... and not by me.


----------



## Da Klugs

moki said:


> ... but again, blanket statements were made... and not by me.


When you're right. you're right. :ss


----------



## moki

Address acquired...

The package will go out tomorrow (Friday the 29th) via USPS Priority Mail DC# 0306 2400 0000 6836 0369

...and we're off! 

Let's try to have some fun with this, folks, and enjoy the ride!


----------



## pinoyman

GO Fredster!:tu




Thanks for the blind taste Moki.:ss


----------



## D. Generate

I'm really looking forward to this challenge. Fredster has a great deal of experience with habanos and I'm curious to see how that affects this. I personally like Moki's methodology and it seems the other suggestions would muddy the waters.


----------



## ritan

Real life cliff hangers. They don't come any better than this. OK, off to find a comfortable spot on the wall. :tu


----------



## Navydoc

Personally I would love to do a blind tasting in hopes of discovering an NC I could actually smoke – That being said, I did have a tat. Especial one time that could have easily fooled me in regards to being Cuban but that was one experience out of hundreds and hundreds….Enjoy the trip Fred!


----------



## Throb

Rick-um Rack-um. Firecracker. Sis...Boom...Bah.
Fred-ster!!! Fred-ster!!! Rah, Rah Rah!!!

This is going to be good! I'm rooting for my Florida Gorilla

Great Information/Discussion/Thread Moki.


----------



## floydpink

Wow, 5 pages and a cigar hasn't even been lit. This is gonna be good and I am rooting for Fred to do a lot better than I did. I know first hand how hard it is as I called a Ramon Allones Regional Release a dogrocket!

I'm guessing Andrew really dug deep into his collection for this one and am anxious to see what shows up in the way of cigars and how they are percieved with no clues at all and what Fred's final analasis of the test is once it concludes.


----------



## Fredster

moki said:


> He's the one who made the claim, not me! For the record, I would only expect him to get the marca correct for cigars that are Cuban (since that was his claim).
> 
> And I agree with you that doing this is even harder than guessing Cuban vs. non-Cuban (which can also be just dumb luck, given that it's a coin-flip choice).
> 
> That said, I hope there is not too much more discussion on what might or might not be in the test. It's really not fair to speculate, and it will bias Fredster (for good or for ill).
> 
> So folks, please sit back, relax, and enjoy the ride. But let's keep the speculation to a minimum, to be fair to all involved.


Lets make sure we are on the same page here. What I said was I can tell what marca from my singles drawer I'm smoking blind, and I can tell Cuban from non-Cuban blind. I only smoke Cuban cigars, so there is no way I will guess a NC marca. I'm sure I have not tried them all. In the last year I have smoked maybe 3 NC cigars that were given to me.

I also said that if the cigar is too young, the youthfull peppery or tannic notes can make cigars taste similar. If this is the case I may not guess the marca correct. Most of the cigars I smoke are 5-10 years old and I can easily taste and smell the things unique to that brand. That is why I don't subscribe to this stupid mono-blend theory. I don't have any pre-concieved notions about anything when smoking a cigar. I've had plenty of Cuban cigars where I open a newly recieved box expecting them to kick ass based on past experience, and they totally suck. I trust my tastes only. Why do they sometimes suck, because Cuban cigars are inconsistant. If you want a cigar that consistanly draws well or has little taste difference from box to box, then NC cigars are the way to go. To me part of the fun or sometimes pain in the ass with Cubans, is finding out which ones are good and which aren't. Which ones need 3 years and which ones need 10. What factory codes seem to be more consistant than others. All stuff that is interesting and fun part of learning in this hobby.

Bottom line is I have never had a NC cigar that smells like or tastes like a Cuban. If they are out there I have not had them. We'll find out soon won't we. The Padrons and Fuentes are fine cigars. Similar to cigars rolled in Cuba by the best grade9 rollers. Unfortunately this is a greedy communist country and cigars are rolled by inexperienced rollers sometimes. The 07 cigars are IMO right there with the NC's based on the ones I've sampled.They cannot grow a NC cigar that really grabs ME and has the whole package. Taste, aroma, complexity, finish, strength,etc.

This is not the first time I've responded to an Andrew challenge. I accused him of smoking fakes a few years ago, because he was always dogging Cuban cigars and talking about how great Padrons were. I think there was also an issue of an 02 or 03 Cohiba Pyramid he posted pics of with a band that was 02 or 03 I believe. Long story short, he was correct that they did re-release some Cohiba Pyramids with that year. I did some research, and smoked the one he sent, and admitted it was real. He also sent me one with the correct 01 band and it was fake as a 3 dollar bill. I presume to prove his theory that bands or packaging influence my tastes or my prefernce of Cubans. I proved him wrong and will be gald to do so again and take his money. One sniff of the foot and I could tell this was not Cuban tobacco. I did not bother smoking as it smelled like shit. Dissection confirmed short filler. To his credit he admitted it was probably fake and that someone had given it to him. Don't know if I fully believe this, and wonder if he didn't know it was fake how he could not tell. Very obvious to me. Lots of people thought this was shady on his part. If he really did not know it was fake, then that speaks volumes about his palate, sense of smell, and experience.

The other cigar he sent was a 99 OpusX robusto. Part of the argument as to why he said I prefer Cubans is because I smoked mature ones and compare with fresh NC. Not true. I have a friend that smokes and ages OpusX cigars. Have had them aged and they without a doubt improve with age. Still don't taste as good as a similar priced Cuban to me. I smoked his 99 and it was not bad, but not great either. I could buy a Cuban robusto with 5 years age for less $$$ that to me tastes better.

I'm sure this old challenge thread can be found with a search if anyone doubts what I'm saying. I am going by memory, but that was it in a nutshell.

If you like Cuban or NC is a personal taste thing. If they can grow tobacco that tastes like Cuban tobacco is not really a personal taste thing, but either a yes or no. I have never experienced it. If I had and the price was reasonable, I'd be buying them. Maybe I'll have my mind changed afer 12 years? I got tired of trying them and always being let down in the past, so this is really the only way I would consider trying some more without throwing my money down the drain.


----------



## j6ppc

It will be interesting to see how this experiment goes.


----------



## tireiron

Good luck, I am looking forward to the results.


----------



## OpusXtasy

These are the kind of challenges that make CS great. I am in full agreement as there is no NC that tastes like a CC and the people who claim the Fuente or Padron are better than a CC just have different tastes or expectations from their cigars. SOme people like vintage CC(more than 10 years) and some like the young peppery taste of a 07 Partagas short. Just like wine, bourbon, sports cars or any other adult vice it is a very personal choice. And yes, aged Opus and Anejos are better!

OX


----------



## LasciviousXXX

Fredster said:


> Lets make sure we are on the same............, so this is really the only way I would consider trying some more without throwing my money down the drain.


*"You must spread some reputation around before giving it to Fredster again"*

Go get 'em brother :tu


----------



## Sean9689

Gotta get a post in here.
Looking forward to the challenge and the results, should be fun! 
Go get 'em, Fred!


----------



## moki

Fredster said:


> This is not the first time I've responded to an Andrew challenge. I accused him of smoking fakes a few years ago, because he was always dogging Cuban cigars and talking about how great Padrons were. I think there was also an issue of an 02 or 03 Cohiba Pyramid he posted pics of with a band that was 02 or 03 I believe. Long story short, he was correct that they did re-release some Cohiba Pyramids with that year. I did some research, and smoked the one he sent, and admitted it was real.


Yep... and that re-release has since been independently verified by a number of people.

I remember being absolutely skewered, told I didn't know what was real and what was fake, etc., and then of course ending up being right in the end. 

...in fact, after all of the puffing and accusations, the doubting of my word, etc., you posted an apology because you were wrong to doubt my word.



> He also sent me one with the correct 01 band and it was fake as a 3 dollar bill. I presume to prove his theory that bands or packaging influence my tastes or my prefernce of Cubans. I proved him wrong and will be gald to do so again and take his money. One sniff of the foot and I could tell this was not Cuban tobacco. I did not bother smoking as it smelled like shit. Dissection confirmed short filler. To his credit he admitted it was probably fake and that someone had given it to him. Don't know if I fully believe this, and wonder if he didn't know it was fake how he could not tell. Very obvious to me. Lots of people thought this was shady on his part. If he really did not know it was fake, then that speaks volumes about his palate, sense of smell, and experience.


I'm sorry you don't "fully believe it" -- because I PM'd a number of people here ahead of time to let them know what I was doing. I also am extremely well versed in fakes:

http://www.vitolas.net/thumbnails.php?album=19

http://www.vitolas.net/thumbnails.php?album=43

http://www.vitolas.net/displayimage.php?pos=-1021

I would also disagree that "lots of people" thought it was shady... I think _you_ did because you were fooled, but that's about it! 

EDIT: found it, here's what happened:

http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5510&page=5

...another enjoyable thread to read! 

...but let's continue that discussion in that thread, I'm not sure why it was brought up, because it's not germane to this thread.


----------



## LasciviousXXX

moki said:


> I would also disagree that "lots of people" thought it was shady... I think _you_ did because you were fooled, but that's about it!


Then you'd be mistaken my friend.

All the past involvements aside, I'm very much looking forward to this taste test and applaud both parties for doing this. Kudos gents :tu


----------



## moki

Fredster said:


> Lets make sure we are on the same page here. What I said was I can tell what marca from my singles drawer I'm smoking blind, and I can tell Cuban from non-Cuban blind. I only smoke Cuban cigars, so there is no way I will guess a NC marca. I'm sure I have not tried them all. In the last year I have smoked maybe 3 NC cigars that were given to me.


Yep, we're on the same page! If you read the specific challenge on the first post of this thread, all you need to do is determine the country of origin for 7/10 of the 10 cigars you're being sent!


----------



## moki

LasciviousXXX said:


> Then you'd be mistaken my friend.
> 
> All the past involvements aside, I'm very much looking forward to this taste test and applaud both parties for doing this. Kudos gents :tu


I think people can read and judge for themselves... but this is starting to develop more like a political "smear campaign" than a blind taste test!

Seriously, the acrimony is not necessary. Sit back, relax, and enjoy the ride... it's gonna be a fun one!


----------



## Da Klugs

I think you and Fred are on the same page but you stated it wrong below.



moki said:


> Yep, we're on the same page! If you read the specific challenge on the first post of this thread, all you need to do is determine the country of origin for 7/10 of the 10 cigars you're being sent!


Per this post...

http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1486651&postcount=107

It's Cuba or Other for the bet here. So answer for each cigar is .. Cuban or not. Country and Marca are just lil additional fun items you copied from your original CP thread.

Still think Fred might miss a few on the basic Cuban vs not. The rest? For anyone but Brandon I figure 2-4 on brand out of 10. Dis be harder than you think if you've never done it.


----------



## carni

newcigarz said:


> Looks like the Fredster Fan Club is already forming :r


i've seen that car before....hilarious pic.


----------



## moki

Da Klugs said:


> I think you and Fred are on the same page but you stated it wrong below.
> 
> Per this post...
> 
> http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1486651&postcount=107
> 
> It's Cuba or Other for the bet here. So answer for each cigar is .. Cuban or not. Country and Marca are just lil additional fun items you copied from your original CP thread.
> 
> Still think Fred might miss a few. Dis be harder than you think if you've never done it.


Well... when I state "country of origin", I mean "Cuban or non-Cuban" as specified in point 4 of the initial post:

_4) His guess as to the country of origin of the cigar in terms of being Cuban or non-Cuban_

...but thanks for clarifying. I'm off to the post office to get Fredster's package in the mail!


----------



## Pablo

I don't subscribe to many threads...but this is to good to miss.


----------



## moki

pds said:


> I don't subscribe to many threads...but this is to good to miss.


Good to have you on board, PDS. And I think your .sig message is apropos here:

_ Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people. - Eleanor Roosevelt_

It's a hell of a thing to want to impunge a man's character simply because you don't like his opinion. Let's keep it to discussing ideas, and away from people. But we already think alike to an extent...


----------



## Munkey

I'm just here for the education. Thanks to both parties for stepping up.


----------



## kvm

pds said:


> I don't subscribe to many threads...but this is to good to miss.


Ditto. Looking forward to this one. :tu


----------



## ltc1303

This will be extremely imformitive either way it turns out. I personally can't want and wish I could move time forward to see the results already lol.


----------



## moki

Package was dropped off at the post office... I'd imagine Fredster will have it in his hands by Monday or Tuesday at the latest, and then we're off! 

BTW, for those who enjoy such things... I'm running a group blind taste test here -- follow along if you like, I think it will be very interesting!

There is no wager involved there, and no point attempting to be "proved" or "disproved" -- but the participants are being asked to be even more specific about what they think about the cigars they've smoked.

In addition to Cuban or non-Cuban, they also must list the marca they think it is, how old they think it is, how much they think it costs, and of course their rating.

What I'm curious to see in that one is whether taken as an aggregate, the cigar reviews are more accurate... and also there are some cigars slipped in there that I'm very curious what people will say about them if they review 'em blind.


----------



## floydpink

Moki,

I'm kinda curious as to why you are cliping the caps in this test as well as your group test on CP, and sent all 10 intact during my test?

Best I can surmise is that you knew I was too much of a dumbass to know a triple cap from a baseball cap.:r

Either that or my preexamination of the cigars blew it for everyone.

No biggie, and please don't take it as a sign of displeasure, as I still feel lucky to have participated and you certainly don't need to explain yourself to the likes of me. It's just the curiosity is killing me....


----------



## wayner123

floydpink said:


> Moki,
> 
> I'm kinda curious as to why you are cliping the caps in this test as well as your group test on CP, and sent all 10 intact during my test?
> 
> Best I can surmise is that you knew I was too much of a dumbass to know a triple cap from a baseball cap.:r
> 
> Either that or my preexamination of the cigars blew it for everyone.
> 
> No biggie, and please don't take it as a sign of displeasure, as I still feel lucky to have participated and you certainly don't need to explain yourself to the likes of me. It's just the curiosity is killing me....


You weren't supposed to examine the cigars in any way when you did the test. So pre-clipping takes that temptation away.


----------



## floydpink

Uh... thanks, and you were supposed to sit back and watch, but critiqued the validity of the test the whole time. Moki?


----------



## wayner123

floydpink said:


> Uh... thanks, and you were supposed to sit back and watch, but critiqued the validity of the test the whole time. Moki?


I critiqued the validity based on procedure. You were the one who kept breaking procedure and exmaining the cigar. That is why he is pre-clipping them now.


----------



## psu08

This looks like an interesting test. I'll definately be following along to see how the results pan out. There sure seems to be a lot of hostility in this thread, though.


----------



## Habanolover

Why are people arguing in this thread when all that is required is to sit back and enjoy the experiment?


----------



## moki

floydpink said:


> Moki,
> 
> I'm kinda curious as to why you are cliping the caps in this test as well as your group test on CP, and sent all 10 intact during my test?
> 
> Best I can surmise is that you knew I was too much of a dumbass to know a triple cap from a baseball cap.:r
> 
> Either that or my preexamination of the cigars blew it for everyone.
> 
> No biggie, and please don't take it as a sign of displeasure, as I still feel lucky to have participated and you certainly don't need to explain yourself to the likes of me. It's just the curiosity is killing me....


No big deal, just decided to try it this way is all. I did it for Fyodor's test, too.

I thought about it, and while having the caps intact can be a useful misdirection tool, I think to keep things as neutral and fair as possible, it's best to eliminate as many possible sources of information as possible.

Clipping the caps removes the ability to look for a triple cap (but then also loses the ability to misdirect by having non-Cuban cigars with a triple cap), and it also makes it impossible to know what the vitola is through measuring.

It's not something I really gave much thought to either way, just decided that any way to reduce information (whether good or bad) would keep a test focused on the taste.


----------



## Fredster

This is my last post until I make tasting notes. Arguing with you is like talking to a brick wall.

You can't even tell the truth about a direct quote. I said "so my apologies to Moki, the 03 Co. Pyramids were in fact produced, and COULD be legit", not that yours were. Go back and click it and read it. I already said in my previous post that they did in fact produce 03 Cohiba Pyramids. I guess you only know the answer to if they were legit thanks to your little band switcheroo. I was wrong about them not producing 03 pyramids. Unlike some other people I can admit when I'm wrong. So why throw the post up with me saying so? I didn't argue that with you.

I do argue with you telling people you were sending me a fake with the 01 band. You and I both know you told me in a PM that you did not know it was fake and someone in a cigar bar gave it to you. Ring any bells? I think after I said you can't tell a fake from a legit cigar then you changed your tune saying you knew it was a fake.

I also was not fooled in any way. I told you which one was fake and I was correct. The thread clearly shows that.

We still will never know for sure if your 03's were fake since you felt the need to play games and switch the bands and it backfired on you when I told you which cigar was legit. Yes, there were 03 Cohiba Pyramids made. For all I know you switched it the other way and the 03 was fake and the 01 banded cigar was originally legit. Don't recall any people coming forward and saying you told them. Could be friends of yours anyways. Hopefully this tasting will be on the level.



moki said:


> Yep... and that re-release has since been independently verified by a number of people.
> 
> I remember being absolutely skewered, told I didn't know what was real and what was fake, etc., and then of course ending up being right in the end.
> 
> ...in fact, after all of the puffing and accusations, the doubting of my word, etc., you posted an apology because you were wrong to doubt my word.
> 
> I'm sorry you don't "fully believe it" -- because I PM'd a number of people here ahead of time to let them know what I was doing. I also am extremely well versed in fakes:
> 
> http://www.vitolas.net/thumbnails.php?album=19
> 
> http://www.vitolas.net/thumbnails.php?album=43
> 
> http://www.vitolas.net/displayimage.php?pos=-1021
> 
> I would also disagree that "lots of people" thought it was shady... I think _you_ did because you were fooled, but that's about it!
> 
> EDIT: found it, here's what happened:
> 
> http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5510&page=5
> 
> ...another enjoyable thread to read!
> 
> ...but let's continue that discussion in that thread, I'm not sure why it was brought up, because it's not germane to this thread.


----------



## moki

Fredster said:


> This is my last post until I make tasting notes. Arguing with you is like talking to a brick wall.
> 
> You can't even tell the truth about a direct quote. I said "so my apologies to Moki, the 03 Co. Pyramids were in fact produced, and COULD be legit", not that yours were. Go back and click it and read it. I already said in my previous post that they did in fact produce 03 Cohiba Pyramids. I guess you only know the answer to if they were legit thanks to your little band switcheroo. I was wrong about them not producing 03 pyramids. Unlike some other people I can admit when I'm wrong. So why throw the post up with me saying so? I didn't argue that with you.
> 
> I do argue with you telling people you were sending me a fake with the 01 band. You and I both know you told me in a PM that you did not know it was fake and someone in a cigar bar gave it to you. Ring any bells? I think after I said you can't tell a fake from a legit cigar then you changed your tune saying you knew it was a fake.
> 
> I also was not fooled in any way. I told you which one was fake and I was correct. The thread clearly shows that.
> 
> We still will never know for sure if your 03's were fake since you felt the need to play games and switch the bands and it backfired on you when I told you which cigar was legit. Yes, there were 03 Cohiba Pyramids made. For all I know you switched it the other way and the 03 was fake and the 01 banded cigar was originally legit. Don't recall any people coming forward and saying you told them. Could be friends of yours anyways. Hopefully this tasting will be on the level.


Fredster, you really need to take it easy with the insinuations of "lying" or "not telling the truth". It's unfair, and inaccurate.

You essentially stated that I was "lying" 3 years ago, when I was telling you that Cohiba Piramides came with 2003 bands on them. That was an unfounded thing to say. You also didn't take my word for _anything_ that I stated in that thread, essentially implying that I was lying, until you heard from Mitch himself.

It's unfair to assume people are lying to you when there's no evidence that this is the case. You're already setting it up here, implying that this blind taste test is not on the level -- which is unfair, and inaccurate as well.

Essentially, what happened in this thread is:

1) I posted some cigar reviews

2) Fredster, who has a great deal emotionally invested in Cuban cigars, didn't like the results

3) He then questioned whether or not I was smoking fake Cuban cigars ("Why else would you not LOVE them???")

4) Fredster ignored my comments that the cigars I smoked were real

5) He then doubted my word that I had discussed the issue with Mitch, and other highly respected sources

6) Not until after Mitch and others contacted Fredster did he believe that what'd I'd been saying all along is true, and apologize

Essentially, the attitude was him insisting that I didn't know what I was talking about, or must be smoking "fakes" because my opinions didn't mirror his, or that I was knowingly lying all along. This is about personal taste here... think about that for a moment.

Kartik (morenoloco) is the one that I was discussing the whole "sending him the cigars to try" thing, and suggested that it might be fun to include two Reservas, switch the bands, and see what happened.

The next day, I opened the package I had already put together, took out the Reserva I was sending him, switched the bands with a cigar that a guy at our cigar club gave me the night before (at my asking), and sent it off.

I did not knowingly send him a fake cigar; though as I stated in the thread, I wouldn't be shocked if it were, based on that guy's history. The point was to see if gave the 01 a fantastic review, and dismissed the 03 as a fake. Which he did.

To this day, I am not positive that the switched band Reserva was indeed fake. It might have been... or it might not, and Fredster may just have been panning it because it was rebanded with the "03" band, and he was inclined to believe it was fake.

...and as Trump states... "that's the real deal".

So seriously, Fredster... I realize you don't like my opinions... but impunging my character is not necessary, nor is it helpful or appropriate. If I wanted to take the same stance that you've been, I could just say "Well, who knows, he may have been lying about there being short filler in the 03-banded Cohiba Reserva" -- but I'm not. Think about it...

How about a deep breath, and we get back to enjoying this blind taste testing, and not sprinkling about any insinuations that it may not be "on the level"?


----------



## RPB67

Good luck Fred.

This will be a fun thread to watch play out.

I think you will definately win this one. :tu


----------



## wayner123

wayner123 said:


> You weren't supposed to examine the cigars in any way when you did the test. *So pre-clipping takes that temptation away.*





moki said:


> No big deal, just decided to try it this way is all. I did it for Fyodor's test, too.
> 
> I thought about it, and while having the caps intact can be a useful misdirection tool, I think to keep things as neutral and fair as possible, it's best to eliminate as many possible sources of information as possible.
> 
> *Clipping the caps removes the ability to look for a triple cap* (but then also loses the ability to misdirect by having non-Cuban cigars with a triple cap), and it also makes it impossible to know what the vitola is through measuring.
> 
> It's not something I really gave much thought to either way,* just decided that any way to reduce information (whether good or bad) would keep a test focused on the taste.*


Thank you for clearing this up and showing that my comments were correct. I was not arguing or implying anything else pinkfloyd, so I don't know where your "attitude" came from.


----------



## floydpink

I was asking Moki the question and don't feel that you're the one to answer the question, although you quote quite well.

Shouldn't you be concentrating on making sure all the participants in your food taste test are following your rules exactly rather than tests you are supposed to be watching?

No more dumping on Moki's show, so pm me if you need further explanation.


----------



## pistol

Wow, this is obviously a pretty emotional thread for a lot of people! I can't wait to see what happens! Good luck to Fred, and thanks to Andrew for making this an objective test! BTW, I think the method is perfect; I don't care if Fred can guess the Marcas or not (in fact, I'll be floored if he can get them correct), but I'm very curious to see the number of Cuban/non-Cuban cigars he gets correct. I suspect Fred is one of the most qualified, if not the most qualified member of the board to do this blind testing. Now we wait!


----------



## wayner123

WOW man, I still don't know where this attitude is coming from. I haven't "dumped" on Moki's thread. I am concentrating on my testing. The persons agreed to the rules and I can only take their word that they understand and will abide. Seriously, why are you directing this anger towards me?


----------



## moki

pistol said:


> Wow, this is obviously a pretty emotional thread for a lot of people! I can't wait to see what happens! Good luck to Fred, and thanks to Andrew for making this an objective test! BTW, I think the method is perfect; I don't care if Fred can guess the Marcas or not (in fact, I'll be floored if he can get them correct), but I'm very curious to see the number of Cuban/non-Cuban cigars he gets correct. I suspect Fred is one of the most qualified, if not the most qualified member of the board to do this blind testing. Now we wait!


Yeah I don't really get that to an extent. We're talking about cigars here... what's the big deal? Why engage in character assassination over some cigars? Why are they that important/emotional of an issue?

I guess it just goes to show how emotionally invested people can become in their cigars of choice. Sorta reminds me of sports fans. 

Certainly an interesting psychological study, if nothing else...!


----------



## j6ppc

I'm hopeful that the various pissing patches will subside and the thread will wander back to the experiment at hand.


----------



## moki

j6ppc said:


> I'm hopeful that the various pissing patches will subside and the thread will wander back to the experiment at hand.


100% agreed!


----------



## pistol

moki said:


> Yeah I don't really get that to an extent. We're talking about cigars here... what's the big deal? Why engage in character assassination over some cigars? Why are they that important/emotional of an issue?
> 
> I guess it just goes to show how emotionally invested people can become in their cigars of choice. Sorta reminds me of sports fans.
> 
> Certainly an interesting psychological study, if nothing else...!


Well, I'm guilty of the "sports fan" shot! It's spring training again though, and I have a renewed hope in my lovable losers, the Kansas City Royals!


----------



## Blueface

j6ppc said:


> I'm hopeful that the various pissing patches will subside and the thread will wander back to the experiment at hand.


:tpd:
Package in the mail.
Looks like lots of time to sit back and give Fred a chance to smoke away.


----------



## okierock

*VERY* cool thread and kudos to both BOTLs

Here's to Brotherhood:tu


----------



## cigarflip

At the end of the day, this will all be about trust in the person sending the cigars. Bottom line? If I was fooled once what would make me believe that this will not happen again?


----------



## moki

cigarflip said:


> At the end of the day, this will all be about trust in the person sending the cigars. Bottom line? If I was fooled once what would make me believe that this will not happen again?


Sigh. Given that Icehog3 has a list of the cigars in advance, what you're essentially saying is that I intentionally lied to Icehog3 about what cigars were what, correct?

I think it's amazing that anyone would believe that someone would be so petty, and so nefarious as to do something like this _over a bunch of cigars._ I mean seriously... c'mon. That's just sad. If anyone honestly believes that I might do such a thing simply to win an argument, I think that's a telling statement about _their_ line of thought more than anything else. Sorry, but the results of this test do not matter to me to the extent that I'd even contemplate exchanging my dignity for a desired outcome.

I want you to seriously think about what you're saying. It'd be like rigging the outcome of a friendly office softball game. Even if one were of such poor character that they'd be inclined to do such a thing, who cares enough about it to bother? It's such a small, insignificant event in the grand scheme of things.

Talk about "poisoning the well"... are people trying to preemptively cast doubt upon the outcome of this blind taste test? If he doesn't get 7/10 correct, will the results just be thrown out under a cloud of suspicion? If he does get 7/10 or more correct, will apologies be forthcoming from the people who have made unfortunate insinuations here?

As PDS's .sig tag says:

_Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people. - Eleanor Roosevelt_

I am going to state unequivocally right now:

1) Every cigar that was sent to Fredster is exactly what I represented it to be in the list of cigars already in "escrow" with Icehog3

2) There are no fake cigars, Cuban or otherwise, in the blind taste test. I know the provenance of each

3) The cigars that were sent to Fredster are all in known-good shape at the time of sending, and have been stored well in a temperature and humidity controlled environment

If that's not enough for some people, nothing else that I state will be either. I just find it sad that something like this devolves into essentially character assassination... for no good reason... over 10 cigars, of all things. Ah well.

I'd suggest simply accepting that this blind taste test is on the up-and-up, and moving on... or just don't bother reading this thread anymore. Because what would be the point?


----------



## MeNimbus

Happy Friday and enjoy your weekend. I cannot wait for the first review. :ss


----------



## SmokinApe

lol @ the drama...


----------



## moki

SmokinApe said:


> lol @ the drama...


Friggin' unreal...


----------



## mash

moki said:


> Good to have you on board, PDS. And I think your .sig message is apropos here:
> 
> _Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people. - Eleanor Roosevelt_
> 
> *It's a hell of a thing to want to impunge a man's character simply because you don't like his opinion.* Let's keep it to discussing ideas, and away from people. But we already think alike to an extent...


I realize I've been a bit hard on you with a couple of my posts here, and I apologize to the rest of the board for the distraction. I feel honoured to be a member here, and I deeply respect the folks that know way more about cigars here than I do. Lots of pretty funny threads and very classy members. 
But you talk too much, you lower the discourse on this board and I'm calling you on it. I can't speak for others here, but the reason you incite me is not your opinion, but how you state it. It's your smug, I-know-it-all attitude, your mission to show that you're smarter than everyone else, your condescension that is evident in every one of your posts. You then follow this up by martyring yourself, and pretend that you have no idea why people just get upset about cigars. "It's all about me" wears thin I'm afraid.
BTW, I think you meant impugn.
Fred's accepted your challenge on your terms, stop taunting him and get on with it.


----------



## moki

mash said:


> But you talk too much, you lower the discourse on this board and I'm calling you on it. I can't speak for others here, but the reason you incite me is not your opinion, but how you state it. It's your smug, I-know-it-all attitude, your mission to show that you're smarter than everyone else, your condescension that is evident in every one of your posts.


I've actually been trying to _raise_ the discourse on the board, by conducting a taste test in which preconceptions might be re-examined. Apparently I've failed, but I've tried to conduct myself in a reasonable manner, I'm not sure what posts you're referring to. Here are a few excepts of things I have stated in this thread:

.....

Fredster may very well ace the test, and will be showered with well-deserved accolades. However the real thing for me here is that the journey is the reward. I think the process of doing this blind taste test will be far, far more interesting for all involved than the result.

.....

I do want to say that no matter how the results of this pan out, props to Fredster for stepping up to the plate with class, and agreeing to participate!

.....

Not at all -- read my previous posts in the thread. I am not confident he will succeed, or confident he will fail.

I think it is the exercise of _doing_ that is the most important aspect of this taste test.

.....

I absolutely agree with you -- blind taste testing is much harder than people think it is. There is absolutely no shame in getting some wrong at all.

.....

Seriously, the acrimony is not necessary. Sit back, relax, and enjoy the ride... it's gonna be a fun one!

.....

?

I'm sorry you feel that way -- but I think I've been pretty reasonable, especially given some of the comments I've been facing.



> You then follow this up by martyring yourself, and pretend that you have no idea why people just get upset about cigars. "It's all about me" wears thin I'm afraid.


I thought I was defending myself, as any man would -- as I assume you would too -- if someone called their character into question. Apologies if that's not how you've taken it.



> Fred's accepted your challenge on your terms, stop taunting him and get on with it.


Again, I don't think I've been "taunting" him at all -- in fact I've been praising him for stepping up, stating that he may very well ace the test, etc. I guess it is all in how you read into these things...


----------



## Da Klugs

So this is all set up and ready to go. Really looking forward to this as the other tests had wonderful but some newer smokers in them. Finally one of the FOG's has stepped up and it should be interesting.

FYI for anyone who wants to post after this post in this thread... a very literal interpretation of "It's against the rules to attack another member here" will be enforced on posts which follow this one.

Happy Friday!


----------



## 68TriShield

Sticking to the issue,this has been a fascinating discussion...


----------



## glassjapan

...all that really comes to mind is:






"Lighten up Francis."


----------



## mash

glassjapan said:


> ...all that really comes to mind is:
> 
> "Lighten up Francis."


Yeah, I hear ya. Moki and I have communicated off board and all's good. I respect his knowledge, and look forward to the results here. Fred, you da man.


----------



## DonWeb

Bloody good form.... Moki ... Fredster.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Very interesting thread indeed! (I'll be watchin' too)


----------



## Boston_Dude05

Yep, let's keep it real here aight? We got two brothers who have agreed to donate cash, fine stogies, and time for the community here. Kudos to both! You guys are adding some excitement to these forums :tu


----------



## bassrocker

Fredster Go get him Bro !!! :tu Teach me OBEWON ..........................
Use the Force Fred . This is Easy Money Bro . 

Mike


----------



## Ron1YY

Da Klugs said:


> So this is all set up and ready to go. Really looking forward to this as the other tests had wonderful but some newer smokers in them. Finally one of the FOG's has stepped up and it should be interesting.
> 
> FYI for anyone who wants to post after this post in this thread... a very literal interpretation of "It's against the rules to attack another member here" will be enforced on posts which follow this one.
> 
> Happy Friday!


Thank the Cigar Gods we have Mods!!!!!!! Now we can read this thread without wading through "OPINION" posts

Ron


----------



## Firridge

This is going to be good. REAl GOOD!


----------



## dayplanner

Fred is my friend. I have smoked cigars with him and traded cigars with him. I know a lot of cigar smokers, but I know almost nobody as serious and analytical about his smokes than Fred. 

Which means that when it comes to the Cuban / Non-Cuban question in this challenge (and not the marca / exact country question), I believe 7/10 correct is attainable. 

In fact, I got a 5er of good ones here that says Fred gets the 7/10. 

Anyone want to bet against and get a bit more involved? Moki??


----------



## yourchoice

This should be great. Kudos to moki and Fredster.



rdcross said:


> ...I believe 7/10 correct is attainable.
> 
> In fact, I got a 5er of good ones here that says Fred gets the 7/10.
> 
> Anyone want to bet against and get a bit more involved? Moki??


I'd be all over this bet if I didn't agree with your pick! Go get 'em Fred! :tu


----------



## Mikes

Well that took awhile to read all nine pages. First time ever that I have seen something like this happen on a cigar bbs and I am on all most all of them for the past 9 years. Not knowing the background between these two until it was posted by Moki on page # whatever lol, would have to say this has a little bit more riding on it than just get 7 outta 10 right and win a 100 bucks or pay for the cigars. Regardless there appears to be more than a few FOG's that have posted to and will be watching this thread to see the results. I know I am interested in seeing what happens. Good on Fredster for accepting the challenge and on Moki for sending out the cigars. Now its time to wait.......


This is going to go down as a 'Hall Of Fame' thread for sure I can tell already:tu

Mikes


----------



## moki

Mikes said:


> Well that took awhile to read all nine pages. First time ever that I have seen something like this happen on a cigar bbs and I am on all most all of them for the past 9 years. Not knowing the background between these two until it was posted by Moki on page # whatever lol, would have to say this has a little bit more riding on it than just get 7 outta 10 right and win a 100 bucks or pay for the cigars.


Not on this end -- win or lose, as I have stated before... I think it'll be a fun, entertaining, and enjoyable ride. If Fredster nabs 7/10 or better, more power to him, and I'll be suitably impressed!

EDIT: Well, and I'll also be $100 poorer!


----------



## Lanthor

yourchoice said:


> This should be great. Kudos to moki and Fredster.
> 
> I'd be all over this bet if I didn't agree with your pick! Go get 'em Fred! :tu


Joel I will take this action, what do you say to a fiver to the troops (Cobe I don't think my newbie stash would qualify for good ones, Fred no offense I just feel like gambling)?


----------



## KraZieMaN55

It has been a while now since the last time I enjoyed a thread in ClubStogie. I truly believed from all my years of smoking cigars that Cuban tobacco has a unique and most satisfying taste no other tobacco have from other countries. With that said, Go Fredster! Go Go Go!!!

Good Luck!


----------



## moki

rdcross said:


> Fred is my friend. I have smoked cigars with him and traded cigars with him. I know a lot of cigar smokers, but I know almost nobody as serious and analytical about his smokes than Fred.
> 
> Which means that when it comes to the Cuban / Non-Cuban question in this challenge (and not the marca / exact country question), I believe 7/10 correct is attainable.
> 
> In fact, I got a 5er of good ones here that says Fred gets the 7/10.
> 
> Anyone want to bet against and get a bit more involved? Moki??


Sorry man... Pete Rose taught me never to bet on my own game. I don't want to end up signing autographs in a mall somewhere to make end's meet.


----------



## pistol

rdcross said:


> Fred is my friend. I have smoked cigars with him and traded cigars with him. I know a lot of cigar smokers, but I know almost nobody as serious and analytical about his smokes than Fred.
> 
> Which means that when it comes to the Cuban / Non-Cuban question in this challenge (and not the marca / exact country question), I believe 7/10 correct is attainable.
> 
> In fact, I got a 5er of good ones here that says Fred gets the 7/10.
> 
> Anyone want to bet against and get a bit more involved? Moki??


I'll take this bet, not because I don't think Fred can do it (I won't be at all surprised if he gets them right!), but I like the idea of playing for 5 premium smokes! So I'll take your bet, a 5er that Fred gets more than 3 incorrect. Fred, please don't take this as disrespect, I'm just taking a bet to spice this up!


----------



## floydpink

I'll put a 5er on the cigars to win if there's still room for another at the table.

Knowing first hand how hard this test is, I'm not sure how even Don Pepin would do.......


----------



## DennisP

floydpink said:


> Knowing first hand how hard this test is, I'm not sure how even Don Pepin would do.......


Let's get on him for the next test.


----------



## Boston_Dude05

floydpink said:


> I'll put a 5er on the cigars to win if there's still room for another at the table.
> 
> Knowing first hand how hard this test is, I'm not sure how even Don Pepin would do.......


:r Let's challenge Don Pepin to a blind taste test...if we can find him.


----------



## dayplanner

Lanthor said:


> Joel I will take this action, what do you say to a fiver to the troops (Cobe I don't think my newbie stash would qualify for good ones, Fred no offense I just feel like gambling)?


Sure, a 5er from you to the troops if Fred gets 7 or more the 10 correct on the Cuban vs Non-Cuban question. A fiver from me if he gets 6 or less correct. Sound ok? :tu



pistol said:


> I'll take this bet, not because I don't think Fred can do it (I won't be at all surprised if he gets them right!), but I like the idea of playing for 5 premium smokes! So I'll take your bet, a 5er that Fred gets more than 3 incorrect. Fred, please don't take this as disrespect, I'm just taking a bet to spice this up!


On here as well -- I send you a fiver of good ones if Fred gets 6 or less correct, you send me 5 if he gets 7 or more right on Cuban or non-Cuban. :ss

Hey Fred, really concentrate on these OK?! :r


----------



## pinoyman

Hey Fred, really concentrate on these OK?! :r[/QUOTE]

You can do it Fred!:tu:ss


----------



## Fredster

I would like to throw out a friendly tastes sampling of sticks for Andrew. Same rules as he's giving me. 10 of my sticks from my humi, Tom will be given the info from me on what the sticks are prior to me sending. He smokes at his leisure and posts the tasting notes here. No money or bets or any sarcastic name like the "The Great Moki Taste Challenge". Just some friendly fun to see if he can guess what the Marcas are, identify the flavors,age, etc. Nothing to lose, and some good sticks for free. Obviously they will be Cuban (since thats all I have) so he has an advantage and not 100% blind, but who cares.


----------



## Lanthor

rdcross said:


> Sure, a 5er from you to the troops if Fred gets 7 or more the 10 correct on the Cuban vs Non-Cuban question. A fiver from me if he gets 6 or less correct. Sound ok? :tu
> 
> Hey Fred, really concentrate on these OK?! :r


In my best Judge Smails voice "You're on, you're on!!"


----------



## yourchoice

Lanthor said:


> Joel I will take this action, what do you say to a fiver to the troops (Cobe I don't think my newbie stash would qualify for good ones, Fred no offense I just feel like gambling)?


Mike, I'll take that bet. My fiver for the troops versus your fiver for the troops. It's a deal!


----------



## Lanthor

yourchoice said:


> Mike, I'll take that bet. My fiver for the troops versus your fiver for the troops. It's a deal!


Sweet!


----------



## 68TriShield

Fredster said:


> I would like to throw out a friendly tastes sampling of sticks for Andrew. Same rules as he's giving me. 10 of my sticks from my humi, Tom will be given the info from me on what the sticks are prior to me sending. He smokes at his leisure and posts the tasting notes here. No money or bets or any sarcastic name like the "The Great Moki Taste Challenge". Just some friendly fun to see if he can guess what the Marcas are, identify the flavors,age, etc. Nothing to lose, and some good sticks for free. Obviously they will be Cuban (since thats all I have) so he has an advantage and not 100% blind, but who cares.


It will double my interest if Andrew accepts this offer.I already think this one of the 5 best discussions in my time here for the purely cigar content of it.
Come on Moki,your reviews will be a great read


----------



## DBall

my god... this just keeps getting better and better. Thank you both for putting up what has the potential to be the best thread ever on CS.


----------



## pinoyman

Fredster said:


> I would like to throw out a friendly tastes sampling of sticks for Andrew. Same rules as he's giving me. 10 of my sticks from my humi, Tom will be given the info from me on what the sticks are prior to me sending. He smokes at his leisure and posts the tasting notes here. No money or bets or any sarcastic name like the *"The Great Moki Taste Challenge".* Just some friendly fun to see if he can guess what the Marcas are, identify the flavors,age, etc. Nothing to lose, and some good sticks for free. Obviously they will be Cuban (since thats all I have) so he has an advantage and not 100% blind, but who cares.


Now you're talking Fred!
Good luck Moki enjoy the gars!:tu:ss


----------



## bazookajoe

Da Klugs said:


> So this is all set up and ready to go. Really looking forward to this as the other tests had wonderful but some newer smokers in them. Finally one of the FOG's has stepped up and it should be interesting.
> 
> FYI for anyone who wants to post after this post in this thread... a very literal interpretation of "It's against the rules to attack another member here" will be enforced on posts which follow this one.
> 
> Happy Friday!


Thanks for this! :tu

What should be a very interesting thread was becoming unbearable with the peanut gallery pettiness...


----------



## moki

Fredster said:


> I would like to throw out a friendly tastes sampling of sticks for Andrew. Same rules as he's giving me. 10 of my sticks from my humi, Tom will be given the info from me on what the sticks are prior to me sending. He smokes at his leisure and posts the tasting notes here. No money or bets or any sarcastic name like the "The Great Moki Taste Challenge". Just some friendly fun to see if he can guess what the Marcas are, identify the flavors,age, etc. Nothing to lose, and some good sticks for free. Obviously they will be Cuban (since thats all I have) so he has an advantage and not 100% blind, but who cares.


Let's be clear -- the blind taste test was offered to you because:

a) You made specific claims about being able to pick out a Cuban cigar anywhere

b) You made specific claims about never finding a "NC" cigar that you thought was worth anything

c) You made specific claims about being able to pick out Cuban cigar marcas easily

d) I thought it'd be an entertaining and enjoyable thing to do

I never made such broad claims. Indeed, I would not. Thus I really only meet criteria d) in the list above.

I've made absolutely no claims about being able to pick out marcas easily when smoking them blind... because I think it is _extremely_ hard to do. Picking out the marca is even harder than picking out whether a cigar is Cuban or non-Cuban, because it isn't a 50/50 proposition... which is why I'd never claim to be able to do it with any degree of accuracy.

I've done blind taste tests before and I was extremely lucky to be able to pick out the marca 4 times out of 10, with a mix of Cuban and non-Cuban cigars. I believe that I would do absolutely terrible in this test, Fredster, but I'd be happy to do it anyway, if that'll assuage you.

Let's do it in another thread, though, to keep this one focused.


----------



## Fredster

First, I would like to say that after talking with Andrew in depth we are both going to bury the hatchet (no kiss and make up jokes please) and give each other the benefit of the doubt that the past 2003 Cohiba Pyramid incident was a misunderstanding on both of our parts. I think we both can take this hobby too serious at times. I don't agree with a lot of what he says, but thats the way it goes.

I never said you made any claims bro. Just thought it would be interesting to see how many you got right and to see if your tastes were similar to mine. That is why I said no money or bets.

You are correct on all three counts and I'm not changing my story or backing down from that in any way.

In the past, I have no problem picking out Cuban Vs. Non-Cuban, I have not found a NC cigar that I like enough to buy, and I can pick out Marcas like Cohiba (that I love and are very distinct in flavor) blind provided it's a cigar I regularly smoke. So looking forward to it and should be fun reguardless of outcome.

So, I'll get the cigars together for you and we can post your results elsewhere.

Peace.



moki said:


> Let's be clear -- the blind taste test was offered to you because:
> 
> a) You made specific claims about being able to pick out a Cuban cigar anywhere
> 
> b) You made specific claims about never finding a "NC" cigar that you thought was worth anything
> 
> c) You made specific claims about being able to pick out Cuban cigar marcas easily
> 
> I never made such broad claims. Indeed, I would not.
> 
> I've made absolutely no claims about being able to pick out marcas easily when smoking them blind... because I think it is _extremely_ hard to do. Picking out the marca is even harder than picking out whether a cigar is Cuban or non-Cuban, because it isn't a 50/50 proposition... which is why I'd never claim to be able to do it with any degree of accuracy.
> 
> I've done blind taste tests before and I was extremely lucky to be able to pick out the marca 4 times out of 10, with a mix of Cuban and non-Cuban cigars. I believe that I would do absolutely terrible in this test, Fredster, but I'd be happy to do it anyway, if that'll assuage you.
> 
> Let's do it in another thread, though, to keep this one focused.


----------



## floydpink

I can almost hear the Charlie Daniels band playing, "Devil Went Down to Georgia" ......

"I'll take your bet, you're gonna regret, cause I'm the best that's ever been"

Rosin up your bows fellas.


----------



## moki

Fredster said:


> First, I would like to say that after talking with Andrew in depth we are both going to bury the hatchet (no kiss and make up jokes please) and give each other the benefit of the doubt that the past 2003 Cohiba Pyramid incident was a misunderstanding on both of our parts. I think we both can take this hobby too serious at times. I don't agree with a lot of what he says, but thats the way it goes.
> 
> I never said you made any claims bro. Just thought it would be interesting to see how many you got right and to see if your tastes were similar to mine. That is why I said no money or bets.


Cool mang! Let's do it!  Just FYI, I will likely only be able to smoke 2x a week... we have lousy weather up here in the winter, and a state-wide smoking ban.

I'm predicting right now that I will get 2/10 right in terms of the marcas (and I'll consider myself lucky to do so!  )



> You are correct on all three counts and I'm not changing my story or backing down from that in any way.
> 
> In the past, I have no problem picking out Cuban Vs. Non-Cuban, I have not found a NC cigar that I like enough to buy, and I can pick out Marcas like Cohiba (that I love and are very distinct in flavor) blind provided it's a cigar I regularly smoke. So looking forward to it and should be fun reguardless of outcome.
> 
> So, I'll get the cigars together for you and we can post your results elsewhere.
> 
> Peace.


----------



## Ashcan Bill

As I said before, two fine gentlemen. :tu


----------



## icehog3

A true "Gentleman's" challenge now, makes it all the more watchable and enjoyable for me.

Regarding this specific thread, since Fred will likely get the cigars by Monday and start smoking at his leisure, I think we should take any more "side bets" to PM or a different thread. I would hate to see those who are interested in the experiment get discouraged with post after post of betting on the outcome. So, unless Andrew, Fred or Paul object, please take any more "betting" on this to PM. Thanks.


----------



## opus

Assuming the Cuban cigar samples are mainstream factory cigars, I have no doubt Fred will get 10 out of ten correct as Cuban or non-Cuban. Go get em Fredster!


----------



## moki

opus said:


> Assuming the Cuban cigar samples are mainstream factory cigars, I have no doubt Fred will get 10 out of ten correct as Cuban or non-Cuban. Go get em Fredster!


That would be seriously awesome... I would dub him a super-taster! The rare people who are really that good at tasting can actually make a living from it. I'll be the first to state that I am, sadly, not one of those people. Perhaps Fredster is!

One thing I will say, though, is that rote memorization of cigar marca profiles is something I think is very possible... but it doesn't mean much of anything beyond the fact that rote memorization is possible with taste, as well as other senses.

The real challenge is being able to tell country of origin from a cigar you _have never smoked before_ or are not intimately familiar with the taste profile of... because then no taste profile memorization is possible, and you're really discerning characteristics that are theoretically inherent in tobacco leaf from a particular country.

In other words, let's say I love Cohiba Robustos. I've been smoking them for 10 years at least once a week or more. It should be fairly easy, then, to pick out that taste profile... because I'm very accustomed to it. But if I'm to then translate that into a broader assertion that I know the taste of any Cuban tobacco leaf in general, I don't think it necessarily follows at all.


----------



## Bigwaved

moki said:


> That would be seriously awesome... I would dub him a super-taster! The rare people who are really that good at tasting can actually make a living from it. I'll be the first to state that I am, sadly, not one of those people. Perhaps Fredster is!
> 
> One thing I will say, though, is that rote memorization of cigar marca profiles is something I think is very possible... but it doesn't mean much of anything beyond the fact that rote memorization is possible with taste, as well as other senses.
> 
> The real challenge is being able to tell country of origin from a cigar you _have never smoked before_ or are not intimately familiar with the taste profile of... because then no taste profile memorization is possible, and you're really discerning characteristics that are theoretically inherent in tobacco leaf from a particular country.
> 
> In other words, let's say I love Cohiba Robustos. I've been smoking them for 10 years at least once a week or more. It should be fairly easy, then, to pick out that taste profile... because I'm very accustomed to it. But if I'm to then translate that into a broader assertion that I know the taste of any Cuban tobacco leaf in general, I don't think it necessarily follows at all.


I have read about the "super-tasters". I am not so sure that up to one out of four people is necessarily a rare occurrence though. That would be well over a billion people.


----------



## opus

Again, assuming the Cuban cigar samples are mainstream factory cigars, I think this will be no problem for Fred, even if it is a "mainstream factory cigar" he has little experience with. I believe the Cuban leaf used in these cigars has a distinct taste or quality that can be detected. Poor quality leaf from any country would be hard to identify. 

This is a good test Andrew. Anxious to see the results.


----------



## moki

Bigwaved said:


> I have read about the "super-tasters". I am not so sure that up to one out of four people is necessarily a rare occurrence though. That would be well over a billion people.


I think it is 1 in 4 people who have the appropriate taste buds (though it is closer to 1 in 3 for women, and 1 in 6 for men)... but like anything else, there are varying levels of ability in that category. The "super-taster" designation doesn't mean that they are super at tasting... it just means that they have the requisite number of tastebuds:

_ Fewer than 15 papillae mean you are an insensitive "non-taster", between 15 and 35 indicates an average "taster" and over 35 papillae then you are a "super-taster"._

_ Professor Bartoshuk said: "Super-tasters perceive all tastes as more intense than do tasters and non-tasters."

Catherine Lowe, managing editor of Wine magazine which published details of the research, told BBC News Online: "People are recognised as being able to taste differently.

"Some people are very, very good and others are just average, so we wanted to look at the science behind it."

But she said it was still possible for would-be wine tasters to educate their palate.

"You can learn. But for some people, it is easier than for others."_


----------



## BobbyRitz

moki said:


> I think it is 1 in 4 people who have the appropriate taste buds (though it is closer to 1 in 3 for women, and 1 in 6 for men)... but like anything else, there are varying levels of ability in that category. The "super-taster" designation doesn't mean that they are super at tasting... it just means that they have the requisite number of tastebuds:
> 
> _ Fewer than 15 papillae mean you are an insensitive "non-taster", between 15 and 35 indicates an average "taster" and over 35 papillae then you are a "super-taster"._
> 
> _ Professor Bartoshuk said: "Super-tasters perceive all tastes as more intense than do tasters and non-tasters."
> 
> Catherine Lowe, managing editor of Wine magazine which published details of the research, told BBC News Online: "People are recognised as being able to taste differently.
> 
> "Some people are very, very good and others are just average, so we wanted to look at the science behind it."
> 
> But she said it was still possible for would-be wine tasters to educate their palate.
> 
> "You can learn. But for some people, it is easier than for others."_


Speaka da English? 

Looks like everything is set. Kudos to Fredster for accepting the challenge and Andrew for his handling of the taste test.


----------



## Bigwaved

moki said:


> I think it is 1 in 4 people who have the appropriate taste buds (though it is closer to 1 in 3 for women, and 1 in 6 for men)... but like anything else, there are varying levels of ability in that category. The "super-taster" designation doesn't mean that they are super at tasting... it just means that they have the requisite number of tastebuds:
> 
> _ Fewer than 15 papillae mean you are an insensitive "non-taster", between 15 and 35 indicates an average "taster" and over 35 papillae then you are a "super-taster"._
> 
> _ Professor Bartoshuk said:"Super-tasters perceive all tastes as more intense than do tasters and non-tasters."
> 
> Catherine Lowe, managing editor of Wine magazine which published details of the research, told BBC News Online: "People are recognised as being able to taste differently.
> 
> "Some people are very, very good and others are just average, so we wanted to look at the science behind it."
> 
> But she said it was still possible for would-be wine tasters to educate their palate.
> 
> "You can learn. But for some people, it is easier than for others."_


So, you must have research numbers on how many of the possible 1.5 billion of super-tasters are properly trained? Your insinuation is that they are few and far between by calling them rare, in my opinion. You must be basing this off of something more than conjecture. More to the point, it puzzles me how you automatically would jump to the conclusion that if Fredster is successful identifying the cigars in your "test" it would be due to his being a super-taster. Do we need him to dye his tongue and count the papillae next? Interesting. I will stop now. This is getting the thread off topic again. Apoplogies to the people interested in the results, not the theory of how they were obtained.


----------



## Munkey

Well, I certainly don't need to subscribe to this thread anymore. Peace out.


----------



## Boston_Dude05

I believe it is just an attempt by Moki to show that he is not condescending to CC smokers and is giving Fredster some credit, thus potentially lowering his guard. For someone who is a hardcore Padron smoker, I doubt he would like to believe that Fredster is a "super taster" as he outlines. Anyhow, I believe Fredster will hold up and then sanity in the world will be restored.


----------



## moki

Bigwaved said:


> So, you must have research numbers on how many of the possible 1.5 billion of super-tasters are properly trained? Your insinuation is that they are few and far between by calling them rare, in my opinion. You must be basing this off of something more than conjecture. More to the point, it puzzles me how you automatically would jump to the conclusion that if Fredster is successful identifying the cigars in your "test" it would be due to his being a super-taster. Do we need him to dye his tongue and count the papillae next? Interesting. I will stop now. This is getting the thread off topic again. Apoplogies to the people interested in the results, not the theory of how they were obtained.


heh. When I said I'd call him a "super-taster", I meant that as a double-entendre compliment. Geez... 

As for people who are both super-tasters, and also "super at tasting", I called them few and far between not based on my own research, but based on this article, among others, that state as much. The gist of it is that being a super-taster gives you a biological advantage, but to be truly "super at tasting", one must also have the aptitude, and undergo fairly comprehensive training.

I think a good analogy would be an athlete. Some people's genes are more predisposed to them having athletic potential, but without proper training, they may or may not develop it... and they also need the mental aptitude as well.

Now, if I find out that Fredster has been taking performance enhancing drugs, all bets are off, and he's gonna have to testify before congress.


----------



## moki

Boston_Dude05 said:


> I believe it is just an attempt by Moki to show that he is not condescending to CC smokers and is giving Fredster some credit, thus potentially lowering his guard. For someone who is a hardcore Padron smoker, I doubt he would like to believe that Fredster is a "super taster" as he outlines. Anyhow, I believe Fredster will hold up and then sanity in the world will be restored.


It couldn't be genuine, right? Must be a set-up of some kind? Tinfoil hats for everyone!  Yes, it is true that I believe that people are in general not as good as they think they are at detecting tastes (myself included). However, I do not want Fredster to fail... far from it. I think any outcome is a good one, as long as the process is enjoyable, educational, and entertaining.

And yes, it is also true that I think people tend to get too wrapped up in "XXXX is better than XXXX" when it comes to things like the luxuries that cigars, spirits, wines, coffees, etc. are. I found in all of these gastronomic endeavors that it pays to venture into them with an open mind, because there are fantastic products in each of these categories from a number of places in the world.

Anyway, I would not say that I am a "hardcore Padrón smoker" -- I'm not sure where you're getting that from. I actually don't think I've had one in a number of months... the last one I had was the 80 Year Perfecto, just to see how it tasted (very nice, beautiful cigar, but overpriced).

I smoke a great range of cigars, Cuban and non, with varying marcas that I've found that I enjoy over the years. Occasionally I will try new cigar lines as they emerge as well, just for fun. I generally smoke once or twice a week at the cigar club while playing poker; last night I had two cigars, one was Cuban in origin, the other was not. Especially when the weather is bad here in upstate NY, there really isn't that much opportunity to indulge, what with the state-wide ban and such.

Indeed, contrary to the experiences of most Americans (but not all, certainly), my first experiences smoking "real cigars" were involving smoking Cuban cigars. Back in 1987/8 or so, when I was still in high school (and crossing over into my college years), my brother lived in Spain. I'd visit him every summer for a month or two, and we'd often smoke Cuban cigars (usually fresh RyJs or Montes) and enjoy a café con leche at one of the many little corner bars in Madrid. He lived there for 9 years, and I visited him repeatedly... and Cuban cigars were thus my first exposure to the luxury cigar world.

Why would I be condescending to "Cuban smokers" when I am in fact one of them? I think a tour of my humidors would probably dispel any notions you might have about me being a "hardcode Padrón smoker" or wanting to somehow disparage "Cuban smokers." I have a robust inventory of cigars, in about a 40/60 ratio in terms of Cuban vs. non-Cuban.

I just don't see the big deal; I don't see there being a "line" or a "side" anywhere, any more than I think there's a "line" or "side" in terms of French or non-French wines, or Belgian or non-Belgian beers, or Italian or non-Italian cheese. Lighten up, folks, these are luxury products we all enjoy, there's no need to get so defensive.

This pigeonholing without any basis really isn't helpful; nor is the conspiracy theory mongering about statements I've made. Accept them at face value, if you would... because that how they are intended.


----------



## moki

Munkey said:


> Well, I certainly don't need to subscribe to this thread anymore. Peace out.


Hang on a tick; once Fredster receives the cigars and begins smoking 'em, I think it'll be much more enjoyable. In the meantime, we can let the speculators speculate, if that's what tickles their fancy. I personally don't see it as being particularly productive, though.

How about we all just sit back, relax, and let the blind taste test unfold? I think it will be much more interesting than the drive by sniping that's going on.


----------



## Da Klugs

We should rename this thread "The official Banter with Moki Thread". 

Gotta change my sig line....

There we go. :r


----------



## Thurm15

I've never smoked a NC cigar that had Cuban flavor to it. Good luck Fredster and Moki, thanks for putting a little excitement in to the Board. This should be interesting.:tu


----------



## gnukfu

My ex told me I have no taste so I'm looking forward to when the smoking begins here!!!! I figured I would add a post that contributes nothing to this thread (what else can you expect from someone with no taste).


----------



## wh0re

Man, another moki challange! I love it


----------



## floydpink

Da Klugs said:


> We should rename this thread "The official Banter with Moki Thread".
> 
> Gotta change my sig line....
> 
> There we go. :r


:r

I'd love to see a new thread created once the cigars arrive and the testing begins. It's gonna be a nightmare figuring out what page the good stuff starts on.


----------



## wh0re

floydpink said:


> :r
> 
> I'd love to see a new thread created once the cigars arrive and the testing begins. It's gonna be a nightmare figuring out what page the good stuff starts on.


That is a great idea!


----------



## newcigarz

floydpink said:


> :r
> 
> I'd love to see a new thread created once the cigars arrive and the testing begins. It's gonna be a nightmare figuring out what page the good stuff starts on.


:tpd: We have 12 pages now and no one has actually smoked a cigar yet :r


----------



## Fredster

No way I'm a super-taster. If there was a scale, and at the low end you had a guy that just couldn't taste shit, and the high end is this super-taster, I'd probably be in the middle to upper middle maybe. I expect to get 7 or more right from sheer repetition. If you smoke or taste something every day, in this case Cuban cigars, for over ten years, this should not be too difficult.

We will find out real soon.:ss

Oh, and I think starting a new thread once the tasting starts is a good idea. I told Andrew he could post his tasting results from my smokes in the Habanos reviews if he wanted to.


----------



## Ron1YY

Take a look here before you post. Let's see if this will clear up this thread :tu

http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1492166#post1492166

Ron


----------



## PadronMe

newcigarz said:


> :tpd: We have 12 pages now and no one has actually smoked a cigar yet :r


I smoked the dreaded NC Padron Londres Friday night. I have yet to find a Cuban that tasted like a Padron.


----------



## Habanolover

Fredster and Moki I am glad to see you guys come to an understanding and bury the hatchet so to speak. I just hope everyone else can let things be. I think this thread just goes to show that CS is a community with varying opinions but also very close knit. I am looking forward to seeing the results of this tasting as should all members. Kudos to both of you for doing this and best of luck to you Fredster.:tu


----------



## RedBaron

Good Luck Fred! Awesome Challenge Andrew! :tu


----------



## Guest

Looking forward to the results of this challenge guys! :tu


----------



## D. Generate

Fredster said:


> Oh, and I think starting a new thread once the tasting starts is a good idea.


That's a great idea. It would be nice to cleanse the palate as it were.


----------



## dustingaunder

:tpd: I agree with the new thread idea once the tasting starts. The things that have gone on in this thread have kinda left a bad taste in my mouth, and it would be nice to forget about them and move on. I think they also take away from the point of the challenge. A good cleansing couldn't hurt.


----------



## DonWeb

Fredster said:


> Oh, and I think starting a new thread once the tasting starts is a good idea. I told Andrew he could post his tasting results from my smokes in the Habanos reviews if he wanted to.


Please mark a pointer to the reviews (if there not here)... I want to make sure to keep following this.


----------



## Harpo

Moki starts yet another thread about Cuban vs. Non-Cubans?

Oh, how... refreshing. :gn


----------



## moki

Fredster said:


> Oh, and I think starting a new thread once the tasting starts is a good idea. I told Andrew he could post his tasting results from my smokes in the Habanos reviews if he wanted to.


While I agree with you that there is an excess of unnecessary (and in come cases, unfortunate) side-commentary in this thread, I do think it contains a useful history of the whole event, as well as important background information.

In addition, in a year or two, when someone wants to read up on this blind taste test, it's probably better to have all of the reviews in one place, rather than having them get lost, scattered about various forums/threads.

Thus if you're agreeable, Fredster, let's keep all of the reviews you do posted in this thread. Sounds good?


----------



## SmokinApe

I am w/ Moki, so far we have 3 threads on two seperate forums on the CS site... We should just have BS posts deleted from this thread...


----------



## icehog3

SmokinApe said:


> I am w/ Moki, so far we have 3 threads on two seperate forums on the CS site... We should just have BS posts deleted from this thread...


Is this one of them?

 :r


----------



## SmokinApe

No... This IMO is the most important post on this thread...



icehog3 said:


> Is this one of them?
> 
> :r


----------



## ToddziLLa

Just saw this...way too cool!


----------



## icehog3

SmokinApe said:


> No... This IMO is the most important post on this thread...


Then I offer my apologies and genuflection.


----------



## Harpo

icehog3 said:


> Is this one of them?
> 
> :r


:r


----------



## Bigwaved

icehog3 said:


> Then I offer my apologies and genuflection.


You are killin' me. :r Are hogs physically able to kneel?


----------



## SmokinApe

icehog3 said:


> Then I offer my apologies and genuflection.


lol :ss


----------



## dayplanner

Munkey said:


> I'm just here for the education. Thanks to both parties for stepping up.


:tpd: That's why I'm here as well


----------



## hk3

When's this joker getting started? Im itching to start reading results!


----------



## DBall

hk3 said:


> When's this joker getting started? Im itching to start reading results!


I think he has to receive the cigars first... :tg

 Based on how this thread has been thus far, I am making a disclaimer that the above statement was just a joke, meant to be funny (ha ha).


----------



## moki

wOOt! 

.....

Label/Receipt Number: *0306 2400 0000 6836 0369*
Status: *Delivered*

Your item was delivered at 12:57 PM on March 3, 2008 in RIVERVIEW, FL 33569.


----------



## Fredster

Cigars arrived. Will give a day or 2 to stabilize, then the fun starts.:ss


----------



## pistol

Fredster said:


> Cigars arrived. Will give a day or 2 to stabilize, then the fun starts.:ss


That's what I'm talkin' about!


----------



## rumballs

Fredster said:


> Cigars arrived. Will give a day or 2 to stabilize, then the fun starts.:ss


how about a picture, to hold us all over?


----------



## DennisP

mmblz said:


> how about a picture, to hold us all over?


That would probably prompt a number of replies about what they cigars could be that may skew results.


----------



## rumballs

DennisP said:


> That would probably prompt a number of replies about what they cigars could be that may skew results.


If someone thought they could identify one of the cigars from a photo, I would laugh at them.

edit: that being said, forget I said anything. I don't want to get involved in any of the many arguments happening in this thread...


----------



## Sean9689

DennisP said:


> That would probably prompt a number of replies about what they cigars could be that may skew results.


C'mon dude, get real.


----------



## icehog3

DennisP said:


> That would probably prompt a number of replies about what they cigars could be that may skew results.


Maybe if he sent a Sancho Sancho.  :r


----------



## moki

DennisP said:


> That would probably prompt a number of replies about what they cigars could be that may skew results.


I think it's be great if he took a picture of the cigars, but I agree that he should hold off posting said picture until we're done here. Given the amount of side-commentary we've seen, I'm quite sure that people will be chiming in about the cigars, which would be counter-productive.

Or he could do what others have done, which is take a picture of each cigar before the blind review, and post them as they come.

As for stabilizing, I wouldn't worry about it, Fredster... they came from my humidor, and then we double-bagged, and sent to you. They should be good to go! But take your time, smoke 'em whenever you feel like it.


----------



## wayner123

moki said:


> I think it's be great if he took a picture of the cigars, but I agree that he should hold off posting said picture until we're done here. Given the amount of side-commentary we've seen, I'm quite sure that people will be chiming in about the cigars, which would be counter-productive.
> 
> Or he could do what others have done, which is take a picture of each cigar before the blind review, and post them as they come.
> 
> As for stabilizing, I wouldn't worry about it, Fredster... they came from my humidor, and then we double-bagged, and sent to you. They should be good to go! But take your time, smoke 'em whenever you feel like it.


I am merely asking, not trying to start any argument and whatever you say is the final say so, I will not argue with your rules.

So then, that being said. Would taking the time to set them up and get a picture of them be examining them? Just wondering, as it seems the less time they are fondled the less time there is to discern shapes, colors, etc.


----------



## moki

wayner123 said:


> I am merely asking, not trying to start any argument and whatever you say is the final say so, I will not argue with your rules.
> 
> So then, that being said. Would taking the time to set them up and get a picture of them be examining them? Just wondering, as it seems the less time they are fondled the less time there is to discern shapes, colors, etc.


I'd prefer it if he just smoked 'em and posted his reviews... but I understand people here would like to follow along. Yes, technically, taking a picture of it would be examining it... but whatever.

I just want to get the reviews under way... so much time has been spent bickering about all of it... just trying to avoid more, and hoping we get the actual event going!


----------



## rumballs

Does anyone live near Fred?
Maybe they could blindfold him and hold the cigar up to his mouth so he couldn't touch it, either.
:r


----------



## pistol

Holy chit, this is the most over analyzed blind taste test in the history of CS! Fred is an honest guy, he isn't going to let other people's opinions or "over fondling of the sticks" sway his opinion! If he was just going to cheat, what the hell would be the point?! As they say, let's sit back and let the professionals do their jobs here!


----------



## wayner123

moki said:


> I'd prefer it if he just smoked 'em and posted his reviews... but I understand people here would like to follow along. Yes, technically, taking a picture of it would be examining it... but whatever.
> 
> I just want to get the reviews under way... so much time has been spent bickering about all of it... just trying to avoid more, and hoping we get the actual event going!


Well said, thank you. :ss


----------



## Blueface

mmblz said:


> Does anyone live near Fred?
> Maybe they could blindfold him and hold the cigar up to his mouth so he couldn't touch it, either.
> :r


Wait......he is allowed to touch it?:r


----------



## pistol

Blueface said:


> Wait......he is allowed to touch it?:r


It's kinda like a nudie bar, he can look, but he can't touch, and he DEFINITELY can't fondle!


----------



## dayplanner

mmblz said:


> Does anyone live near Fred?
> Maybe they could blindfold him and hold the cigar up to his mouth so he couldn't touch it, either.
> :r


BassRocker! Will you hold Fred's "cigar" ?!?!


----------



## Harpo

rdcross said:


> BassRocker! Will you hold Fred's "cigar" ?!?!


Mind out for the wet end. :r


----------



## DennisP

Sean9689 said:


> C'mon dude, get real.


I've followed two other threads just like this and whenever a pic was posted there were both responses in the thread and PMs to the "tester" with thoughts.

Now, would any of that affect Fred? I'd think not but really don't know. It's not my test, but based on moki's responses in others he's done I figured he'd not want pics posted in advance.

I think we need to get them blindfolded and unable to feel ring gauge in the mouth to get a real blind test.


----------



## JCK

pistol said:


> It's kinda like a nudie bar, he can look, but he can't touch, and he DEFINITELY can't fondle!


And there's no smoking in the Champagne room?


----------



## pistol

khubli said:


> And there's no smoking in the Champagne room?


That goes without saying my friend!


----------



## moki

pistol said:


> Holy chit, this is the most over analyzed blind taste test in the history of CS! Fred is an honest guy, he isn't going to let other people's opinions or "over fondling of the sticks" sway his opinion! If he was just going to cheat, what the hell would be the point?! As they say, let's sit back and let the professionals do their jobs here!


I'm not worried about Fredster "cheating" at all... I'm trying to mitigate the uh... peanut gallery swarming.


----------



## bassrocker

rdcross said:


> BassRocker! Will you hold Fred's "cigar" ?!?!


I'm going over there Wednesday but , Fred will have to hold his on cigar .
I use two hands to hold my own ! :r I'm interested in seeing them though . Fred has been smoking for a long time ( Obewon ) . I will keep my opinion to my self about them , besides - it wouldn't help .

Mike


----------



## newcigarz

pistol said:


> It's kinda like a nudie bar, he can look, but he can't touch, and he DEFINITELY can't fondle!


Havent you ever been to Montreal?


----------



## pistol

newcigarz said:


> Havent you ever been to Montreal?


LOL, no, but I've been to Vegas, and I can't imagine it being much different!:tu


----------



## newcigarz

pistol said:


> LOL, no, but I've been to Vegas, and I can't imagine it being much different!:tu


Montreal has full contact :mn


----------



## pistol

newcigarz said:


> Montreal is full contact :mn


So was the place that I went to on my bachelor party!


----------



## DBall

pistol said:


> It's kinda like a nudie bar, he can look, but he can't touch, and he DEFINITELY can't fondle!


what if he tips _reeeeeeeeeeally _well?


----------



## Bigwaved

This is like the Gerry Springer version of cigar threads...:r


----------



## floydpink

Has the package arrived?


----------



## NCRadioMan

floydpink said:


> Has the package arrived?


Seems they did.



moki said:


> wOOt!
> 
> .....
> 
> Label/Receipt Number: *0306 2400 0000 6836 0369*
> Status: *Delivered*
> 
> Your item was delivered at 12:57 PM on March 3, 2008 in RIVERVIEW, FL 33569.


----------



## pnoon

DennisP said:


> I've followed two other threads just like this and whenever a pic was posted there were both responses in the thread and PMs to the "tester" with thoughts.
> 
> Now, would any of that affect Fred? I'd think not but really don't know. It's not my test, but based on moki's responses in others he's done I figured he'd not want pics posted in advance.
> 
> I think we need to get them blindfolded and unable to feel ring gauge in the mouth to get a real blind test.


Exactly. So sit back and watch like the rest of us. 
moki is a big boy. He doesn't need anyone to "figure" for him.


----------



## Fredster

I'll post a picture of each one along with each blind review. I can't tell what they are close-up let alone from a picture, but I don't want people saying things were skewed.


----------



## yayson

Fredster said:


> I'll post a picture of each one along with each blind review.


you'd better or I'll be really cross


----------



## Da Klugs

icehog3 said:


> Maybe if he sent a Sancho Sancho.  :r


Or maybe a Fonseca Invicto! 

Fred'l get to it when he gets to it. Said he wanted them to rest for a few days so wouldnt expect much action here till then.


----------



## rumballs

Da Klugs said:


> wouldnt expect much action here till then.


I'm not so sure about that...



Bigwaved said:


> This is like the Gerry Springer version of cigar threads...:r


----------



## hollywood

mmblz said:


> I'm not so sure about that...


I would be upset too if I had to listen to Klug's Ipod!!


----------



## dahigman

mmblz said:


> I'm not so sure about that...


I have been lurking but that was somewhat disturbing Julian.....:r

BTW, Go Fred


----------



## icehog3

hollywood said:


> I would be upset too if I had to listen to Klug's Ipod!!


A greater torture is not known to man.


----------



## gnukfu

I hope the cigar didn't get damaged! :tu Yep, I feel offtopicness creeping in.


----------



## Bax

I love these taste tests. I'm rooting for you Fredster! :tu


----------



## IceChant

Now the really fun stuff start, I can't wait to read up the reviews.
GL Fredster.


----------



## Brandon

icehog3 said:


> A greater torture is not known to man.


How about standing down wind of you after a greasy/spicy meal?


----------



## icehog3

Brandon said:


> How about standing down wind of you after a greasy/spicy meal?


Or trying to get you to laugh.....


----------



## Bigwaved

Brandon said:


> How about standing down wind of you after a greasy/spicy meal?


It doesn't even take that with people named Peter...


----------



## Fredster

Ok, I had some time this afternoon and decided to get started. Figured I might as well go in order so cigar #1 blind review:

Appearance- Smooth, fairly dark wrapper with a nice sheen. Could pass for Cuban. A little toothy, but not too bad. Caps were completely cut off so I have no idea if I smoked the right end. It tried to unravel a bit and I had to smoke it carefully. I assume more than the cap cut was off so I could not measure? This is a taste and smell test so I'm not doing any measuring. It's longer than a corona, but shorter than a londsdale. It's approximately a 42 ring guage. No soft or hard spots and seems rolled very well. Not too loose or too tight. While burning the cigar had a grey ash that looked like most Cubans. Good draw and a straight burn.

Pre-light aroma- Not much smell at the foot of the cigar. Hard to get a good wiff from just one cigar and a smaller ring guage. Some of the larger sticks in the test have more smell from the foot and some definately do not smell like Cuban leaf. What little smell I got from this one could pass for Cuban.

Pre-light taste. Not much taste before lighting. Maybe a little cedary?

Taste- Very strong in your face. Very peppery and earthy. Maybe some cedar in the background. The spice diminishes somewhat as you smoke, but still very spicy to halfway point. This cigar does not change very much start to finish. Obviously lots of ligero and similar to a Cuban custom roll (like Taboada) in strength. No bad or nasty tastes, but not real balanced or complex. Taste is more Cuban than any of the NC cigars I've tried in the past, but something a little different I couldn't put my finger on.

Aroma- The smoke has a strong aroma that smells more Cuban than non-Cuban. It's harder for me to describe aroma than taste. Even though it could pass for Cuban the aroma didn't remind me specifically of any brand. Some cigars like Montecristo and Cohiba have very distinct aromas to me.

Ok,the final verdict. This cigar would fool a lot of people I think. It tastes Cuban, but what bothers me is it doesn't taste like any Marca. If I had to pick a cigar that it's closest to, maybe a young Punch SS#1. Still it just doesn't taste exactly like anything I can identify. The strength also seems more like one of these NC cigars that have lots of ligero. I can't think of any Cuban cigars that are this strong either. The only thing Cuban it really reminds me of is a custom roll. It may have aging potential, but not real great at this point. I know a lot of guys like these Customs, but I don't smoke or stock very many these days. The majority of what I smoke is 5-10 years old min. and I like more complex cigars. 

This is probably going to be one of the tougher ones in the taste test. My final answer is NOT CUBAN, though it could possibly pass for a Cuban custom roll to most I think. As to what it could be, I have no clue. I have smoked maybe 3 NC cigars in the last year and it doesn't taste like anything I've had in the past.


----------



## Fredster

Forgot the pictures.


----------



## mikeyj23

The fun begins! Can't wait to see some results.


----------



## Hank

I'm glade it started just hope i don't have
to read 15 pages of B/S in between sticks.


----------



## Sandman

Great to see this get underway. Very thorough review Fredster, this should be interesting.


----------



## Sandman

Sandman said:


> Great to see this get underway. Very thorough review Fredster, this should be interesting.


WOW! After all the :BS posted in the past week, Fred finally posts a review, and then nobody says peep.


----------



## sirxlaughs

Sandman said:


> WOW! After all the :BS posted in the past week, Fred finally posts a review, and then nobody says peep.


We're all silent with anticipation for Moki's answer. :r


----------



## bobarian

Nice review Fred. Now we await the verdict!:tu


----------



## Lanthor

Sandman said:


> WOW! After all the :BS posted in the past week, Fred finally posts a review, and then nobody says peep.


We don't want to contribute to 15 pages of B/S in between sticks (oops guess I just did)

Nice job Fred, looking foward to the results. Just to clarify, you can't see any cap on any of the cigars?


----------



## moki

Fredster said:


> Ok, I had some time this afternoon and decided to get started. Figured I might as well go in order so cigar #1 blind review:
> 
> Appearance- Smooth, fairly dark wrapper with a nice sheen. Could pass for Cuban. A little toothy, but not too bad. Caps were completely cut off so I have no idea if I smoked the right end. It tried to unravel a bit and I had to smoke it carefully. I assume more than the cap cut was off so I could not measure? This is a taste and smell test so I'm not doing any measuring. It's longer than a corona, but shorter than a londsdale. It's approximately a 42 ring guage. No soft or hard spots and seems rolled very well. Not too loose or too tight. While burning the cigar had a grey ash that looked like most Cubans. Good draw and a straight burn.
> 
> Pre-light aroma- Not much smell at the foot of the cigar. Hard to get a good wiff from just one cigar and a smaller ring guage. Some of the larger sticks in the test have more smell from the foot and some definately do not smell like Cuban leaf. What little smell I got from this one could pass for Cuban.
> 
> Pre-light taste. Not much taste before lighting. Maybe a little cedary?
> 
> Taste- Very strong in your face. Very peppery and earthy. Maybe some cedar in the background. The spice diminishes somewhat as you smoke, but still very spicy to halfway point. This cigar does not change very much start to finish. Obviously lots of ligero and similar to a Cuban custom roll (like Taboada) in strength. No bad or nasty tastes, but not real balanced or complex. Taste is more Cuban than any of the NC cigars I've tried in the past, but something a little different I couldn't put my finger on.
> 
> Aroma- The smoke has a strong aroma that smells more Cuban than non-Cuban. It's harder for me to describe aroma than taste. Even though it could pass for Cuban the aroma didn't remind me specifically of any brand. Some cigars like Montecristo and Cohiba have very distinct aromas to me.
> 
> Ok,the final verdict. This cigar would fool a lot of people I think. It tastes Cuban, but what bothers me is it doesn't taste like any Marca. If I had to pick a cigar that it's closest to, maybe a young Punch SS#1. Still it just doesn't taste exactly like anything I can identify. The strength also seems more like one of these NC cigars that have lots of ligero. I can't think of any Cuban cigars that are this strong either. The only thing Cuban it really reminds me of is a custom roll. It may have aging potential, but not real great at this point. I know a lot of guys like these Customs, but I don't smoke or stock very many these days. The majority of what I smoke is 5-10 years old min. and I like more complex cigars.
> 
> This is probably going to be one of the tougher ones in the taste test. My final answer is NOT CUBAN, though it could possibly pass for a Cuban custom roll to most I think. As to what it could be, I have no clue. I have smoked maybe 3 NC cigars in the last year and it doesn't taste like anything I've had in the past.


*Cigar #1 results*

Fredster says:

Cigar rating: n/a (fredster didn't provide one)
Marca: n/a (fredster didn't provide one)
Origin guess: NOT CUBAN
Cuban/non-Cuban: non-Cuban

Survey says:

Actual origin: Cuba
Cigar #1 is a: Cuban Montecristo Tubos 1970s (6.10" x 42)

*Commentary:*

This is actually a very well aged (perhaps too aged?) Cuban Montecristo entubos from the 1970s (and yes, the pedigree is known on these, and was PM'd to Fredster). I picked these up last year, and I've found them to be relatively uninteresting. They aren't bad, but they don't knock my socks off... but then again, most Montecristos I find to be relatively uninteresting anyway.

You seemed to have your finger on it early in the test, and I actually thought you were going to get this one right. However, aged tobacco, especially this old, can be a fickle mistress. Nevertheless, this was indeed Cuban, and in fact a relatively popular marca, the venerable Montecristo. Suckling would no doubt opine for pages on the wonders of this cigar. Me, not so much.

I'm intrigued that you found this cigar to be so strong... the samples I've had from this box were not. I've used this cigar before in a blind taste test, and he thought it was very mild (and also got it wrong, guessing it to be non-Cuban). Quite the extremes in terms of perceived strength!

Don't forget to give a rating to the next cigar! Very nice review, though, Fredster, it was very intriguing hearing you taste your way through it. Looking forward to the next one!

BTW, it does look like you smoked this cigar backwards... it doesn't really matter, but... the way the wrapper is applied to a cigar, the wrapper on the foot of the cigar is always overlapped and held down by itself. The cappa is what helps to secure the wrapper near the head of the cigar. I must have not cut it carefully enough, sorry about that... but based on the way it is unravelling in your second picture, it was indeed smoked backwards.

*Results so far:*

#1 - Cuban Montecristo Tubos 1970s -- (n/a) guessed non-Cuban - _Incorrect_

*Score:* Cigars 1, Fredster 0


----------



## floydpink

This is gonna be good......


----------



## Mark THS

Very interesting start


----------



## Bax

A swing and a miss. If he included a Black and Mild Apple... I'd still get it wrong. Good luck!


----------



## DennisP

Very intersting first cigar. Fred did a great job explaining the tastes, almost as if I was smoking it, but picking out more details than I normally can pick up.

Interesting about the strength. I've never smoked a cigar close to this old, but would imagine the ligero would mellow over time. Really interesting that I read the review thinking it was a Cabaiguan and farely fresh the way it was described.

Great work moki and Fred.


----------



## dayplanner

moki said:


> *Cigar #1 results*
> 
> BTW, it does look like you smoked this cigar backwards... it doesn't really matter, but... the way the wrapper is applied to a cigar, the wrapper on the foot of the cigar is always overlapped and held down by itself. The cappa is what helps to secure the wrapper near the head of the cigar. I must have not cut it carefully enough, sorry about that... but based on the way it is unravelling in your second picture, it was indeed smoked backwards.


Hmmm...wouldn't this affect the taste, especially the strength Fred tasted at the outset??


----------



## moki

rdcross said:


> Hmmm...wouldn't this affect the taste, especially the strength Fred tasted at the outset??


Nope. Nothing so dramatic as it'd affect the results at all. Try it yourself sometime.


----------



## Fredster

Mild? Hope you didn't mix cigars up bro. Smoked it 4 hours ago and I can still taste it. If this was a Monte tubos then you cut off a lot more than the cap since it wasn't anywhere near 6 1/8 inches. Not using a ruler, but I'd guess about 5 1/2" long. I've had Monte Tubos from the 70's and this one didn't taste like the ones I had. Matter of fact I've sold some to guys in this board. This cigar was very strong. Have you tried one lately? Mine were kind of one-noted though not as strong as these. Absolutely no where near as much spice.

I thought I did give a very detailed rating. What do you want, a number? I usually don't assign a number if you've read any of my reviews. I said it tasted Cuban, but very strong and one noted. I also said I didn't really care for it much, I ended up selling most of my Monte Tubos from the 70's. Monte #2's with age I love.

I do agree vintage cigars are very hard to identify and we'll see how you do soon. The blend has had a lot of time to marry and all the flavors kind of combine to one mixed flavor sometimes.

As far as the cap, I'm well aware of how it's applied and how it looks. This cigar had no cap left at all,so no way to determine the foot.

Don't get too cocky now we have 9 cigars to go.



moki said:


> *Cigar #1 results*
> 
> Fredster says:
> 
> Cigar rating: n/a (fredster didn't provide one)
> Marca: n/a (fredster didn't provide one)
> Origin guess: NOT CUBAN
> Cuban/non-Cuban: non-Cuban
> 
> Survey says:
> 
> Actual origin: Cuba
> Cigar #1 is a: Cuban Montecristo Tubos 1970s (6.10" x 42)
> 
> *Commentary:*
> 
> This is actually a very well aged (perhaps too aged?) Cuban Montecristo entubos from the 1970s (and yes, the pedigree is known on these, and was PM'd to Fredster). I picked these up last year, and I've found them to be relatively uninteresting. They aren't bad, but they don't knock my socks off... but then again, most Montecristos I find to be relatively uninteresting anyway.
> 
> You seemed to have your finger on it early in the test, and I actually thought you were going to get this one right. However, aged tobacco, especially this old, can be a fickle mistress. Nevertheless, this was indeed Cuban, and in fact a relatively popular marca, the venerable Montecristo. Suckling would no doubt opine for pages on the wonders of this cigar. Me, not so much.
> 
> I'm intrigued that you found this cigar to be so strong... the samples I've had from this box were not. I've used this cigar before in a blind taste test, and he thought it was very mild (and also got it wrong, guessing it to be non-Cuban). Quite the extremes in terms of perceived strength!
> 
> Don't forget to give a rating to the next cigar! Very nice review, though, Fredster, it was very intriguing hearing you taste your way through it. Looking forward to the next one!
> 
> BTW, it does look like you smoked this cigar backwards... it doesn't really matter, but... the way the wrapper is applied to a cigar, the wrapper on the foot of the cigar is always overlapped and held down by itself. The cappa is what helps to secure the wrapper near the head of the cigar. I must have not cut it carefully enough, sorry about that... but based on the way it is unravelling in your second picture, it was indeed smoked backwards.
> 
> *Results so far:*
> 
> #1 - Cuban Montecristo Tubos 1970s -- (n/a) guessed non-Cuban - _Incorrect_
> 
> *Score:* Cigars 1, Fredster 0


----------



## moki

Fredster said:


> Mild? Hope you didn't mix cigars up bro. Smoked it 4 hours ago and I can still taste it. If this was a Monte tubos then you cut off a lot more than the cap since it wasn't anywhere near 6 1/8 inches. Not using a ruler, but I'd guess about 5 1/2" long. I've had Monte Tubos from the 70's and this one didn't taste like the ones I had. Matter of fact I've sold some to guys in this board. This cigar was very strong. Have you tried one lately? Mine were kind of one-noted though not as strong as these. Absolutely no where near as much spice.
> 
> I thought I did give a very detailed rating. What do you want, a number? I usually don't assign a number if you've read any of my reviews. I said it tasted Cuban, but very strong and one noted. I also said I didn't really care for it much, I ended up selling most of my Monte Tubos from the 70's. Monte #2's with age I love.
> 
> I do agree vintage cigars are very hard to identify and we'll see how you do soon. The blend has had a lot of time to marry and all the flavors kind of combine to one mixed flavor sometimes.
> 
> As far as the cap, I'm well aware of how it's applied and how it looks. This cigar had no cap left at all,so no way to determine the foot.
> 
> Don't get too cocky now we have 9 cigars to go.


Definitely didn't get the cigars mixed up, that was indeed a Cuban Montecristo Tubos from the 1970s... and I have smoked some of them lately. I found them to be neither as strong as you stated here, nor as muted as the other blind reviewer stated. Somewhere right down the middle. And yes, more than the cap may have been cut off on some of the cigars... throws off the size, but alas, also can make the wrapper come loose.

I'm definitely not cocky... blind tasting is really, really hard. I've said that before, but I mean it sincerely. It's why I'm quite sure I will not be able to do well guessing the marcas on the cigars you sent me. Best bet it to just sit back and enjoy the ride!!  Speaking of which, we have 9 cigars to go... and I think you can do extremely well on the remaining cigars. Lots of green left, so to speak!

Yes, you did a fantastic job with the review... but yeah, I was hoping for an overall number xx/10 as stated in the first post in this thread: 3) Whether he enjoyed the cigar or not, in the form a rating of the cigar from 1-10 (10 being the best)

I realize it is simplistic, but some number that gives your relative overall smoking experience helps the gentle reader.

As for the cap, all I meant was that it is very difficult for properly made cigar can unravel the wrapper from the foot... because the wrapper is wrapped over itself from the foot up to the cappa. Thus if the wrapper unravels as seen in photo #2 there, it's being smoked backwards.

Anyhow..... looking forward to the next review!


----------



## Munkey

Right or wrong, the review was kick ass. If I lived anywhere nearby, I'd be begging you to teach me in person how to think about cigars that way and get the nuance. Look forward to the rest, I'll learn as much as I can from afar.

One question to Moki and anyone else that knows how cigars are made. I always thought (incorrectly?) that even with long filler the blend from head to foot had some variance. If it doesn't, how does a cigar have different tastes from start to finish. Especially in thirds. Should this question be a new thread? I don't wanna hijack, but I think it's relevant to this cigar as well as overall knowledge.


----------



## pbrennan10

Munkey said:


> Right or wrong, the review was kick ass. If I lived anywhere nearby, I'd be begging you to teach me in person how to think about cigars that way and get the nuance. Look forward to the rest, I'll learn as much as I can from afar.
> 
> One question to Moki and anyone else that knows how cigars are made. I always thought (incorrectly?) that even with long filler the blend from head to foot had some variance. If it doesn't, how does a cigar have different tastes from start to finish. Especially in thirds. Should this question be a new thread? I don't wanna hijack, but I think it's relevant to this cigar as well as overall knowledge.


If there is a difference i would assume it to be related to the length of burning, the amount of smoke that has flowed over the unburnt tobacco, heat, etc.

All variables induced by time of smoking not side of smoking.


----------



## moki

Munkey said:


> Right or wrong, the review was kick ass. If I lived anywhere nearby, I'd be begging you to teach me in person how to think about cigars that way and get the nuance. Look forward to the rest, I'll learn as much as I can from afar.


Agreed, it was a very interesting, nuanced, and detailed review from Fred!



> One question to Moki and anyone else that knows how cigars are made. I always thought (incorrectly?) that even with long filler the blend from head to foot had some variance. If it doesn't, how does a cigar have different tastes from start to finish. Especially in thirds. Should this question be a new thread? I don't wanna hijack, but I think it's relevant to this cigar as well as overall knowledge.


Nah, it doesn't matter much at all. Torcedors are given tobacco in packets, they bunch the filled blend up into tubes (or "book" them, as the case may be), and the orientation of the tobacco plays no role in how they bunch the leaves up (in terms of the concept of a "head" and a "foot" of the cigar). It isn't until the binder and wrapper is applied that there's really any concept of an orientation. Certainly some blends I'm aware of had little pieces of medium filler placed strategically, but these are the exception.

Try it yourself sometime. The cigar will draw just fine from either end, and the taste won't be significantly different -- it certainly won't change the taste in terms of the country of origin or the age or such.


----------



## cf2112

There's a big difference between 5-1/2" and 6-1/8" I may not be able to tell Cuban vs Non I could tell 5-1/2" vs 6-1/8". MAybe a little too much cap cut off aspecially since he may have smoked it backwards.


----------



## moki

cf2112 said:


> There's a big difference between 5-1/2" and 6-1/8" I may not be able to tell Cuban vs Non I could tell 5-1/2" vs 6-1/8". MAybe a little too much cap cut off aspecially since he may have smoked it backwards.


Fredster did not measure the cigar with a ruler, so the 5 1/2" is an eyeball estimate. At most, I probably cut off 1/4" when I clipped the head, which would put the cigar just a bit shy of 6" in length.

In the end, it really doesn't matter, though (except for the unfortunate wrapper loosening that resulted).


----------



## cf2112

This is very interesting and I'll be watching this to see the results.

Have you ever done a tasting with someone who only smokes NC's?


----------



## moki

cf2112 said:


> This is very interesting and I'll be watching this to see the results.?


Yep, it's great fun. Like I posted on this group blind taste testing that I'm doing:

_The journey is the reward! The goal here is to enjoy some fine cigars, and see what the blind reviewers think of said cigars when the are unencumbered by their preconceptions. I will also see if we can extrapolate any trends in terms of what cigars were the most liked, whether cost, origin, etc. has anything to do with enjoyment, etc._

That's going to be a fun one to watch. I'm having everyone send in their reviews via PM so that none of the reviewers bias each other. First review will be posted this coming Thursday.


----------



## icehog3

Per Andrew's request, I am confirming that he sent me #1 as a 1970's Monte Tubos on the list.

Fred, great review, and it felt like you really wanted to go Cuban. I also appreciate Andrew's admission that these blind reviews are hard, I certainly don't think I could do as well as I think Fred will. Good luck Fred, still a shot at 9/10.


----------



## Fredster

icehog3 said:


> Per Andrew's request, I am confirming that he sent me #1 as a 1970's Monte Tubos on the list.
> 
> Fred, great review, and it felt like you really wanted to go Cuban. I also appreciate Andrew's admission that these blind reviews are hard, I certainly don't think I could do as well as I think Fred will. Good luck Fred, still a shot at 9/10.


I really did want to say Cuban. Everything said Cuban about it. The only reason I didn't is because I just couldn't place the taste. Just too long since I had one of these 70's ones. I had these Monte Tubos from 1992, I think Freddy (rockstar) had them from the same source also, and they were excellent. They had that sweet Monte tangy flavor. These 70's ones just become strong and one dimentional with no bean flavors or sweetness. I'm not sure why. One of the few vintage cigars I have not cared for.

I don't agree at all with Moki that the Monte brand sucks or that vintage Motes are overated. The 70's Tubos don't do it for me though. Have had many Montes from the 70's without tubes that were just excellent. Dunhill Sel. #2 and #3 both blew me away.


----------



## icehog3

Fredster said:


> I really did want to say Cuban. Everything said Cuban about it. The only reason I didn't is because I just couldn't place the taste. Just too long since I had one of these 70's ones. I had these Monte Tubos from 1992, I think Freddy (rockstar) had them from the same source also, and they were excellent. They had that sweet Monte tangy flavor. These 70's ones just become strong and one dimentional with no bean flavors or sweetness. I'm not sure why. One of the few vintage cigars I have not cared for.
> 
> I don't agree at all with Moki that the Monte brand sucks or that vintage Motes are overated. The 70's Tubos don't do it for me though. Have had many Montes from the 70's without tubes that were just excellent. Dunhill Sel. #2 and #3 both blew me away.


A couple smaller Montes from 1975 rank up there as some of the best cigars I have ever smoked....I think many vintage Montes are the chit, although I am not a big fan of the Churchill Tubos myself.


----------



## newcigarz

Fredster said:


> I really did want to say Cuban


Really thought you had it there Fred. Good Luck on the Final 9.:tu


----------



## Fredster

moki said:


> Definitely didn't get the cigars mixed up, that was indeed a Cuban Montecristo Tubos from the 1970s... and I have smoked some of them lately. I found them to be neither as strong as you stated here, nor as muted as the other blind reviewer stated. Somewhere right down the middle. And yes, more than the cap may have been cut off on some of the cigars... throws off the size, but alas, also can make the wrapper come loose.
> 
> I'm definitely not cocky... blind tasting is really, really hard. I've said that before, but I mean it sincerely. It's why I'm quite sure I will not be able to do well guessing the marcas on the cigars you sent me. Best bet it to just sit back and enjoy the ride!!  Speaking of which, we have 9 cigars to go... and I think you can do extremely well on the remaining cigars. Lots of green left, so to speak!
> 
> Yes, you did a fantastic job with the review... but yeah, I was hoping for an overall number xx/10 as stated in the first post in this thread: 3) Whether he enjoyed the cigar or not, in the form a rating of the cigar from 1-10 (10 being the best)
> 
> I realize it is simplistic, but some number that gives your relative overall smoking experience helps the gentle reader.
> 
> As for the cap, all I meant was that it is very difficult for properly made cigar can unravel the wrapper from the foot... because the wrapper is wrapped over itself from the foot up to the cappa. Thus if the wrapper unravels as seen in photo #2 there, it's being smoked backwards.
> 
> Anyhow..... looking forward to the next review!


Ok, I would have to say 6.5 maybe. Happy? Smoked like a dream construction wise, but I just don't care for the taste.

The 70's Monte tubos is a strange cigar to me. I bought a box (maybe a year ago) and either sold or gave all of them away. They just tasted strong and one noted. Have you had one from closer to 1994? The 1992's I've smoked were excellent and had lots of traditonal tangy, Monte bean flavors. Lots of coffee and cocoa. The 70's ones just taste like dirt to me.

I didn't mean you were cocky about the test, you said it was hard. Sounded cocky to me saying after the test you don't like the entire Monte line and that Suckling would probably overate it, like every vintage Cuban he rates is overated something.

I think they overate a lot of cigars, especially the Padrons. They also overate Cubans sometimes too. I think they gave a young 06 Monte Edmundo a 94 or 95. I have smoked them and it's a great smoke for so young, but it aint no 95.

Guessing Marcas from cigars I smoke daily (5-10 years old) that are not too fresh or 30 years old is really not difficult to me. With vintage cigars it's probably very difficult to next to impossible. I don't smoke vintage cigars every day it's just too expensive. I will say out of the dozen or so vintage boxes I bought last year, that 70's Monte Tubos one was the only one I did not like and hoard.

Next review with numbers to follow soon.


----------



## rutkus

such epic smokes have been used in these blind tests, thats what really is amazing to me. i've lurked and enjoyed reading these Moki, this is the first time i've posted on one of these threads.


----------



## moki

Fredster said:


> I didn't mean you were cocky about the test, you said it was hard. Sounded cocky to me saying after the test you don't like the entire Monte line and that Suckling would probably overate it, like every vintage Cuban he rates is overated something.


Oh... heh. I was just making fun of Suckling (c'mon, it's a sport  ), and also trying to make a point that taste really is pretty personal.   Apologies...

Many foods that I cannot stand, others enjoy... but I still think they are crazy to eat broccoli


----------



## moki

Fredster said:


> Guessing Marcas from cigars I smoke daily (5-10 years old) that are not too fresh or 30 years old is really not difficult to me. With vintage cigars it's probably very difficult to next to impossible. I don't smoke vintage cigars every day it's just too expensive. I will say out of the dozen or so vintage boxes I bought last year, that 70's Monte Tubos one was the only one I did not like and hoard.


Sure, like I said earlier in the thread, I think it's very possible to memorize the taste profile of a cigar marca/age that you smoke every day for years on end. But that just shows that rote memorization is possible with taste, as it is with the other senses. Which isn't too surprising.


----------



## gnukfu

moki said:


> . but I still think they are crazy to eat broccoli


OK I have been quiet this whole thread but someone has to defend broccoli!!! It's ummm very good for you but not vintage broccoli because it tends to have too much mold on it. :tu


----------



## Harpo

Fredster said:


> Appearance- Smooth, fairly dark wrapper with a nice sheen. Could pass for Cuban.
> 
> While burning the cigar had a grey ash that looked like most Cubans. Good draw and a straight burn.
> 
> Pre-light aroma- What little smell I got from this one could pass for Cuban.
> 
> Taste is more Cuban than any of the NC cigars I've tried in the past, but something a little different I couldn't put my finger on.
> 
> Aroma- The smoke has a strong aroma that smells more Cuban than non-Cuban.
> 
> It tastes Cuban, but what bothers me is it doesn't taste like any Marca.


Great observations, despite Moki throwing you a curve ball with a seriously aged Cuban. I think you chose to go NC in the end because you thought it was "too good to be true" and perhaps Moki was trying to trip you up. However, the review speaks for itself - plenty of Cuban character tasted and noted, and I'd wager you would've said it was Cuban if it were not for this very public taste-off. :2

Fredster 1 - Moki 0 :tu


----------



## cf2112

I'll watch that one also but for some reason my posting privlidges have been removed (probably lack of posting). I searched and found a few other tastings you've done and been involved in and I think Fredster has his work cut out to go above .500.



moki said:


> Yep, it's great fun. Like I posted on this group blind taste testing that I'm doing:
> 
> _The journey is the reward! The goal here is to enjoy some fine cigars, and see what the blind reviewers think of said cigars when the are unencumbered by their preconceptions. I will also see if we can extrapolate any trends in terms of what cigars were the most liked, whether cost, origin, etc. has anything to do with enjoyment, etc._
> 
> That's going to be a fun one to watch. I'm having everyone send in their reviews via PM so that none of the reviewers bias each other. First review will be posted this coming Thursday.


----------



## wh0re

Harpo said:


> Fredster 1 - Moki 0 :tu


I think you misread, Fredster got it wrong.


----------



## Fredster

Nice day outside and not working so onto cigar #2:

Appearance- Smooth colorado claro wrapper. Very silky. No cap at all left again, but based on most cigars (unless a lefty roller) the wrapper goes from right to left towards the cap so this is how I determined the cap end. It never unraveled and smoked like a champ.

Pre-light aroma- Sweet and Cuban smelling.

pre-light taste- Sweet.

Taste- Cuban for sure. Exotic mix of sweet spices and cedar in the beginning. The spice lessens after an inch and the cigar becomes sweeter as it's smoked. Very complex and taste like aged tobacco. Long, sweet, earthy finish. Strength is at the upper end of medium.

Aroma- Very nice Cuban complex aroma. A definate familiar smell.

Rating (as per Moki's request) 9.5. Really enjoyed this cigar as evident by the nubbing it got. Perfect draw and burn.

Verdict-Ok, the main question the bet was based on. Cuban for sure.

Extra credit- I say aged tobacco and only one cigar comes to mind. Despite vintage cigars being very hard to nail down, I will say this is a Davidoff Chateaue Margaux. Can't tell the exacy size with more than the cap missing but thats my best guess.


----------



## Sean9689

Nice review, Fred. :tu
You seem confident it's Cuban, hope you're right.


----------



## hollywood

Another great review, Fred. Sounds like a good smoke!


----------



## rumballs

Fredster said:


> No cap at all left again, but based on most cigars (unless a lefty roller) the wrapper goes from right to left towards the cap so this is how I determined the cap end.


Off topic, but I thought the direction of the wrapper was determined by which half of the wrapper leaf was being used for the particular cigar?
Just looked at a new box and the top layer has 7 one direction, 6 the other:








Hard to see them all in the picture, but:
?//\??\\\///?
slashes indicate the edges you can see, question marks are the ones you can't really tell from the picture.

The best way to find the head, AFAIK, is:
* find a visible wrapper edge
* see which side is on top
* imagine sliding a piece of paper under the edge, between the two pieces of wrapper
* the direction you would be sliding the paper is moving towards the head of the cigar


----------



## Sawyer

mmblz said:


> Off topic, but I thought the direction of the wrapper was determined by which half of the wrapper leaf was being used for the particular cigar?


This is correct. I know I saw this on a video recently. I think it may have the Modern Marvels Tobacco Episode that was recently played on The History Channel. They showed a machine that would take the stem out of the middle and split the leaf into two halves. Each side would be separated into left and right and rolled accordingly.


----------



## Fredster

mmblz said:


> Off topic, but I thought the direction of the wrapper was determined by which half of the wrapper leaf was being used for the particular cigar?
> Just looked at a new box and the top layer has 7 one direction, 6 the other:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hard to see them all in the picture, but:
> ?//\??\\\///?
> slashes indicate the edges you can see, question marks are the ones you can't really tell from the picture.
> 
> The best way to find the head, AFAIK, is:
> * find a visible wrapper edge
> * see which side is on top
> * imagine sliding a piece of paper under the edge, between the two pieces of wrapper
> * the direction you would be sliding the paper is moving towards the head of the cigar


I read this a couple times and still don't understand exactly what they are saying. If you cut the cap off completely the 2 ends look the same to me. Luckily this won't be an issue for the rest of the cigars. The rest have a small remnant of cap left.

BTW, the 01 QDO coronas are yummy aren't they? I bought 10 boxes recently.


----------



## rumballs

Look at the cigar directly above the clasp, and the cigar 3rd from the right edge. They're the two most obvious in the photo. The one in the middle goes up and to the left, the one 3rd from the right goes up and to the right. But in both cases, the piece of wrapper above the line is on top of the one below it.
Or put another way, the wrapper is applied from the foot end to the head end. So any time one piece of wrapper is on top of another, the one on top is the one that is closer to the head.


----------



## floydpink

Anyone have Moki's phone number? This is no time to be working!!!!

Wait, I think I do.....


----------



## DBall

floydpink said:


> Anyone have Moki's phone number? This is no time to be working!!!!


Agreed... it is VERY hard to wait


----------



## carni

mmblz said:


> Look at the cigar directly above the clasp, and the cigar 3rd from the right edge. They're the two most obvious in the photo. The one in the middle goes up and to the left, the one 3rd from the right goes up and to the right. But in both cases, the piece of wrapper above the line is on top of the one below it.
> Or put another way, the wrapper is applied from the foot end to the head end. So any time one piece of wrapper is on top of another, the one on top is the one that is closer to the head.


not sure if you are right or not, but hats off for the detective work:tu

Moki, great first cigar....i got no experience past 15 years and cant imagine trying to process that type of age. good to see nothing is being help back. great reviews fredster, it will be bitter sweet when this one is over.


----------



## Tw3nty

moki said:


> Agreed, it was a very interesting, nuanced, and detailed review from Fred!
> 
> Nah, it doesn't matter much at all. Torcedors are given tobacco in packets, they bunch the filled blend up into tubes (or "book" them, as the case may be), and the orientation of the tobacco plays no role in how they bunch the leaves up (in terms of the concept of a "head" and a "foot" of the cigar). It isn't until the binder and wrapper is applied that there's really any concept of an orientation. Certainly some blends I'm aware of had little pieces of medium filler placed strategically, but these are the exception.
> 
> Try it yourself sometime. The cigar will draw just fine from either end, and the taste won't be significantly different -- it certainly won't change the taste in terms of the country of origin or the age or such.


Moki or friendster, 
Does that mean that the new NUb cigars are a bogus idea? they argue they makes the cigar smaller because the bub--or lower third of the cigar--tastes better. Is that real?


----------



## NCRadioMan

vanderburg said:


> Moki or friendster,
> Does that mean that the new NUb cigars are a bogus idea? they argue they makes the cigar smaller because the bub--or lower third of the cigar--tastes better. Is that real?


Start with post #18 for a few thoughts on that. http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showthread.php?t=139029&highlight=decision&page=2

Great reviews, Fred!


----------



## moki

Fredster said:


> Nice day outside and not working so onto cigar #2:
> 
> Appearance- Smooth colorado claro wrapper. Very silky. No cap at all left again, but based on most cigars (unless a lefty roller) the wrapper goes from right to left towards the cap so this is how I determined the cap end. It never unraveled and smoked like a champ.
> 
> Pre-light aroma- Sweet and Cuban smelling.
> 
> pre-light taste- Sweet.
> 
> Taste- Cuban for sure. Exotic mix of sweet spices and cedar in the beginning. The spice lessens after an inch and the cigar becomes sweeter as it's smoked. Very complex and taste like aged tobacco. Long, sweet, earthy finish. Strength is at the upper end of medium.
> 
> Aroma- Very nice Cuban complex aroma. A definate familiar smell.
> 
> Rating (as per Moki's request) 9.5. Really enjoyed this cigar as evident by the nubbing it got. Perfect draw and burn.
> 
> Verdict-Ok, the main question the bet was based on. Cuban for sure.
> 
> Extra credit- I say aged tobacco and only one cigar comes to mind. Despite vintage cigars being very hard to nail down, I will say this is a Davidoff Chateaue Margaux. Can't tell the exacy size with more than the cap missing but thats my best guess.


*Cigar #2 results*

Fredster says:

Cigar rating: 9.5/10
Marca: Davidoff Chateaue Margaux
Origin guess: Cuba
Cuban/non-Cuban: Cuban

Survey says:

Actual origin: Nicaraguan
Cigar #2 is a: non-Cuban Cabaiguan WCD 120 (4 5/8" x 42)

*Commentary:*

I love this cigar too. I love it not just because of the taste, but also because to date, I've never had anyone in a blind taste testing a) not love the cigar and b) not guess it was Cuban. However, it is not a Cuban cigar, even though the marca is named after the region in Cuba that Don Pepin hails from.

This cigar actually points to two places... Nicaragua, which is where the blend tobacco is from, and the good old USA for the Connecticut seed shade wrapper (grown in Ecuador) that adorns this Cabaiguan release. This is a great cigar, IMHO, and I'm glad you enjoyed it. The fact that you compared it to a legend like a Cuban Davidoff is a pointer to how nice these cigars are. This cigar is actually just from 2007... so the aging potential is likely tremendous as well.

I love putting this cigar in blind taste tests, because it's such a nice smoke, and it's also a cigar that if the head were not cut, it'd actually be even more deceptive, because it has a pigtail that makes it look exactly like a Cuban Trinidad Reyes.

Since you liked this cigar so much, I would highly recommend that you check out the other vitolas in the Cabaiguan line. It's a fantastic blend, IMHO, even though it gets less "hype" than Pete's Tatuaje line. Good stuff!

The bad news is you got it wrong... the good news is that you found a readily available non-Cuban cigar that you appear to very much enjoy! Thus we've settled at least that contention, we've found you a non-Cuban cigar that you were very impressed by! This is good news!

*Results so far:*

#1 - Cuban Montecristo Tubos 1970s -- (6.5/10) guessed non-Cuban - _Incorrect_
#2 - non-Cuban Cabaiguan WCD 120 -- (9.5/10) guessed Cuban - _Incorrect_

*Score:* Cigars 2, Fredster 0


----------



## moki

vanderburg said:


> Moki or friendster,
> Does that mean that the new NUb cigars are a bogus idea? they argue they makes the cigar smaller because the bub--or lower third of the cigar--tastes better. Is that real?


Not necessarily, as I stated, they might mix it up with some strategically placed medium filler... but _most_ cigar blends do not do this.

As for the wrapper question, yes, the direction they roll the wrapper depends on which side of the leaf they are using.


----------



## pistol

Note to self: pick up some Cabaiguans!


----------



## wayner123

Moki, do you have any information if the WCD 120 is currently available? Or maybe if they will be releasing it again?


----------



## DBall

moki said:


> *Cigar #2 results*
> 
> Fredster says:
> 
> Cigar rating: 9.5/10
> Marca: Davidoff Chateaue Margaux
> Origin guess: Cuba
> Cuban/non-Cuban: Cuban
> 
> Survey says:
> 
> Actual origin: Nicaraguan
> Cigar #2 is a: non-Cuban Cabaiguan WCD 120 (4 5/8" x 42)


Wow... damn.



wayner123 said:


> Moki, do you have any information if the WCD 120 is currently available? Or maybe if they will be releasing it again?


:tpd: In every test I read of yours, people RAVE about these I'd love to get my hands on a few (maybe even a box). Any info you have on these would be incredibly helpful...


----------



## SilverFox

This is most entertaining and even better than that extremely educational.


----------



## moki

wayner123 said:


> Moki, do you have any information if the WCD 120 is currently available? Or maybe if they will be releasing it again?


It is not currently available (they sold out of the initial production), but yes, Drapers will have something similar to it available again at some point in the future. However the regular Cabaiguan blends are very close to this one, only the vitola size really is the difference (which as we know, can affect taste a bit), the blend is the same.

I'd suggest picking up some Cabaiguan Coronas Extras -- they are very close in taste, and also fantastic cigars.


----------



## Puffin Fresh

wayner123 said:


> Moki, do you have any information if the WCD 120 is currently available? Or maybe if they will be releasing it again?


I asked last taste test and he said they were long gone. Sucks because the store that carried them is local.


----------



## Fredster

Wow, I'm stunned. One thing doesn't quite add up though. It was 4 5/8 withough the cap so how could it be 4 5/8 with? I measured this one just because I thought there had to be a lot more missing than the cap.

I'll check the cigar website out. Love to try another one of these and see if it tastes the same as the one you gave me. Not shocked at all about the Monte being Cuban and was heavily leaning that way, but this one really fooled me. This is fun so far even though I'm 2 down. Looking forward to some more.



moki said:


> *Cigar #2 results*
> 
> Fredster says:
> 
> Cigar rating: 9.5/10
> Marca: Davidoff Chateaue Margaux
> Origin guess: Cuba
> Cuban/non-Cuban: Cuban
> 
> Survey says:
> 
> Actual origin: Nicaraguan
> Cigar #2 is a: non-Cuban Cabaiguan WCD 120 (4 5/8" x 42)
> 
> *Commentary:*
> 
> I love this cigar too. I love it not just because of the taste, but also because to date, I've never had anyone in a blind taste testing a) not love the cigar and b) not guess it was Cuban. However, it is not a Cuban cigar, even though the marca is named after the region in Cuba that Don Pepin hails from.
> 
> This cigar actually points to two places... Nicaragua, which is where the blend tobacco is from, and the good old USA for the Connecticut seed shade wrapper (grown in Ecuador) that adorns this Cabaiguan release. This is a great cigar, IMHO, and I'm glad you enjoyed it. The fact that you compared it to a legend like a Cuban Davidoff is a pointer to how nice these cigars are. This cigar is actually just from 2007... so the aging potential is likely tremendous as well.
> 
> I love putting this cigar in blind taste tests, because it's such a nice smoke, and it's also a cigar that if the head were not cut, it'd actually be even more deceptive, because it has a pigtail that makes it look exactly like a Cuban Trinidad Reyes.
> 
> Since you liked this cigar so much, I would highly recommend that you check out the other vitolas in the Cabaiguan line. It's a fantastic blend, IMHO, even though it gets less "hype" than Pete's Tatuaje line. Good stuff!
> 
> The bad news is you got it wrong... the good news is that you found a readily available non-Cuban cigar that you appear to very much enjoy! Thus we've settled at least that contention, we've found you a non-Cuban cigar that you were very impressed by! This is good news!
> 
> *Results so far:*
> 
> #1 - Cuban Montecristo Tubos 1970s -- (6.5/10) guessed non-Cuban - _Incorrect_
> #2 - non-Cuban Cabaiguan WCD 120 -- (9.5/10) guessed Cuban - _Incorrect_
> 
> *Score:* Cigars 2, Fredster 0


----------



## dahigman

moki said:


> *Cigar #2 results*
> 
> The bad news is you got it wrong... *the good news is that you found a readily available non-Cuban cigar that you appear to very much enjoy!* Thus we've settled at least that contention, we've found you a non-Cuban cigar that you were very impressed by! This is good news!
> 
> *Score:* Cigars 2, Fredster 0


This apperars to be a special release comissioned by one retailer. Do the other Cabaiguans taste like this? If not, I would not consider this a redily available stick.
I am amazed at how hard this if for Fred. I think he has a fantastically developed palate, and highly respect his opinion. This is a great experiment!
Thanks to both of you


----------



## wayner123

moki said:


> It is not currently available (they sold out of the initial production), but yes, Drapers will have something similar to it available again at some point in the future. However the regular Cabaiguan blends are very close to this one, only the vitola size really is the difference (which as we know, can affect taste a bit), the blend is the same.
> 
> I'd suggest picking up some Cabaiguan Coronas Extras -- they are very close in taste, and also fantastic cigars.


I have had different Cabaiguans now and each one tasted like I was smoking air. So I was anxious to try one of these since it seemed to fool people. Thanks for the reply.


----------



## NCRadioMan

Cabaiguans can fool alot of people. Including me.  They are great cigars and them being compared to a Davidoff is quite stunning.


----------



## moki

Fredster said:


> Wow, I'm stunned. One thing doesn't quite add up though. It was 4 5/8 withough the cap so how could it be 4 5/8 with? I measured this one just because I thought there had to be a lot more missing than the cap.
> 
> I'll check the cigar website out. Love to try another one of these and see if it tastes the same as the one you gave me. Not shocked at all about the Monte being Cuban and was heavily leaning that way, but this one really fooled me. This is fun so far even though I'm 2 down. Looking forward to some more.


That's definitely what the cigar is, Fredster. As for the measurement, the pigtail is never included in the sizing that vendors list for their cigars -- it probably was a bit shy of 5 5/8" after I'd cut it. I'd be happy to send you another one if you like! But also do seek our and try some of the other Cabaiguan releases, I think you will love them as well, the blend is the same (except for vitola differences).

This cigar is actually a "ringer" in the sense that it tastes fantastic, and everyone seems to think it's Cuban. Not sure why, is it because they love it (and thus think "well, it must be Cuban if I love it"), or because of the taste? Could be both... I think the taste of these is fantastic.

You certainly would not be the only one that this cigar has fooled... check out the links in the results page that I listed, the 3 other blind taste tests I linked to all also loved the cigar, and got it wrong (guessed it was Cuban).


----------



## pistol

PuffDaddy said:


> This apperars to be a special release comissioned by one retailer. Do the other Cabaiguans taste like this? If not, I would not consider this a redily available stick.
> I am amazed at how hard this if for Fred. I think he has a fantastically developed palate, and highly respect his opinion. This is a great experiment!
> Thanks to both of you


I think he said the Coronas Extra tastes very similar (same blend, different vitola). I'm not trying to be a smartass here, but did they say only "readily available" sticks will be used? Some people may disagree with me, but I don't consider a 1970's Montecristo to be readily available to most of us (not because of cost, but because of vendor knowledge)!


----------



## moki

PuffDaddy said:


> This apperars to be a special release comissioned by one retailer. Do the other Cabaiguans taste like this? If not, I would not consider this a redily available stick.
> I am amazed at how hard this if for Fred. I think he has a fantastically developed palate, and highly respect his opinion. This is a great experiment!
> Thanks to both of you


Again, as I stated in the thread, while this is a special release vitola, the blend is the same as the normal Cabaiguan blend... the only difference would be the inherent taste difference that can result in using the same blend in different sized cigars. We've all experienced that in various cigar lines that are the "same blend" -- certain sizes seem to suit our tastes more (or less).

Thus you're correct that this _exact cigar_ is not readily available, but the cigar line/blend is. But the important thing is that he was impressed by a non-Cuban cigar, which to date has not happened. As Borat would say... "great success!"

It's always a good day when you discover a new cigar that you really enjoy, regardless of where it comes from.


----------



## DBall

moki said:


> As Borat would say... "great success!"


...and another "great success":

*Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 40 *(40 members and 0 guests)

This has gotta be the hottest thread on CS at the moment. :tu


----------



## ComicBookFreak

What I believed to be true, why buy the Davidoff's for hundreds when you can get a cigar just as good in the Cabaiguans, has just been proven. 

Cabaiguans are damn good cigars and seems the taste test has already proved there are non-Cuban cigars out there that can compete with even the most expensive Cubans.

Great job, Moki and Fredster!

CBF


----------



## ForestPuma

wayner123 said:


> I have had different Cabaiguans now and each one tasted like I was smoking air.


Dead on Balls accurate. Warm Air. I need to procure some more for myself and let them sit for a while.

This is getting very interesting. I will admit that I smoke mostly Cubans after starting with non Cubans. I have very very few non Cubans left as I have gotten rid of most of them in trades or gifting. This is opening my eyes a bit. Thanks for the enlightening thread. Good luck Fredster.


----------



## moki

BTW, keen observers will note that the first two cigars in Fredster's blind taste test are exactly the same as I used in this blind taste test. I did this on purpose for two reasons.

1) I thought it'd be interesting to see how different people reviewed the same cigars, and their origin guesses

2) Why ruin a good thing? Both of these cigars seemed difficult for people to discern the country of origin from.

The remainder of the cigars in Fredster's blind taste test are not going to be the same (as icehog3 can confirm). 

Interestingly, both Fyodor and Fredster rated the cigars about the same... 5/10 and 6.5/10 for the Montecristo (and both guessed non-Cuban), and 9/10 and 9.5/10 for the Cabaiguan WCD 120 (and both guessed it was Cuban). The main difference is that Fyodor found the Montecristo to be very mild tasting, and Fredster found it to be very strong.


----------



## floydpink

One of the main additions to my humidor after my taste test was Cabaiguan. A lot more than air for my taste buds, but everyone is different they say....

I personally feel they are amongst the best cigars out there, Cuban or not.

Still lots of time for a rally here.


----------



## Fredster

Cigar #3 has been smoked and I'll post results later tonight. I've got some things to do first. Moki should have his cigars today so hopefully some upcoming reviews shortly. I realize it's not sunny and 75 deg. in New York.


----------



## Fredster

PuffDaddy said:


> This apperars to be a special release comissioned by one retailer. Do the other Cabaiguans taste like this? If not, I would not consider this a redily available stick.
> I am amazed at how hard this if for Fred. I think he has a fantastically developed palate, and highly respect his opinion. This is a great experiment!
> Thanks to both of you


If it's a specially comissioned cigar then the tobacco was likely aged even though it was an 07 cigar. In any event I definately want to try some more samples. If it not readily available then I still have not found a NC cigar I like and can buy.


----------



## JBI

I think it's funny when people think they can easily pick a certain cigar blend or country of origin out very readily (of course until they actually do it blind :r) as well as the whole Cuban superiority thing. I don't care how many years you've been smoking, it's much different blind. We've done blind MOTT's (Monthly Official Taste Tests) for years at Herfers Paradise and even veterans or long time smokers rarely get them right (marca or country of origin), including me. However, just picking out Cuban versus non-Cuban is certainly easier than picking out the actual marca, but not so easy as you can clearly see . It's a humbling experience to say the least once you've done it blind because non-Cubans cigars have made such huge strides in the last 7 years..........particularly the last 3 years. After all, once you take away all your perceived perceptions and security of knowing exactly what you're smoking, the clarity that you thought you possessed becomes quite blurry. 

Now, if it's a Pepin blend, I could pick it with regularity. :r :r :ss


----------



## Bax

I would bet a buck that Moki could not only guess the marca, but he'd name the store it was bought at. Double or nothing he can guess the name of the roller just by smell!


----------



## DBall

JBI said:


> Now, if it's a Pepin blend, I could pick it with regularity. :r :r :ss


So... you lookin' for a pepin or non-pepin taste test? I'd do that one for ya...


----------



## icehog3

Confirming from my pre-experiment list from Andrew:

#2 - non-Cuban Cabaiguan WCD 120 (2007)


----------



## moki

Fredster said:


> If it's a specially comissioned cigar then the tobacco was likely aged even though it was an 07 cigar. In any event I definately want to try some more samples. If it not readily available then I still have not found a NC cigar I like and can buy.


The vitola was specially commissioned -- the blend is the same as regular Cabaiguan blends. I'd suggest you pick up some Cabaiguan Coronas Extras, they will taste very similar.

But the point is that this is not Cuban tobacco, and not made in Cuba... and you absolutely loved it. So we broke the "I've never been impressed by a NC cigar" boogeyman, which is a good thing! 

I'll put together a package of a few more of the Cabaiguan WCD 120s for ya, it's the least I can do given the beautiful arrangement of cigars I just received from ya! You're right that the weather here sucks... I likely will not be able to smoke any of them until this coming weekend, unfortunately.


----------



## kjd2121

DOH!!! As Homer says - :chk


----------



## moki

Bax said:


> I would bet a buck that Moki could not only guess the marca, but he'd name the store it was bought at. Double or nothing he can guess the name of the roller just by smell!


You'd lose that buck.  Just wait until you see me screw up my blind reviews.


----------



## 68TriShield

Fredster said:


> If it's a specially comissioned cigar then the tobacco was likely aged even though it was an 07 cigar. In any event I definately want to try some more samples. If it not readily available then I still have not found a NC cigar I like and can buy.


I've avoided posting because of all the flotsam in here but here it goes...

What would be interesting to me is if Fred gets these cigars,tries a couple more and doesn't like them.
Of course,now we all know what they are.Thats what I was wondering...


----------



## Tw3nty

moki said:


> That's definitely what the cigar is, Fredster. As for the measurement, the pigtail is never included in the sizing that vendors list for their cigars -- it probably was a bit shy of 5 5/8" after I'd cut it. I'd be happy to send you another one if you like! But also do seek our and try some of the other Cabaiguan releases, I think you will love them as well, the blend is the same (except for vitola differences).
> 
> This cigar is actually a "ringer" in the sense that it tastes fantastic, and everyone seems to think it's Cuban. Not sure why, is it because they love it (and thus think "well, it must be Cuban if I love it"), or because of the taste? Could be both... I think the taste of these is fantastic.
> 
> You certainly would not be the only one that this cigar has fooled... check out the links in the results page that I listed, the 3 other blind taste tests I linked to all also loved the cigar, and got it wrong (guessed it was Cuban).


Moki,

Hey, if he turns that other one down, I would have no problem relieving you of it. Ha HA.


----------



## moki

68TriShield said:


> What would be interesting to me is if Fred gets these cigars,tries a couple more and doesn't like them.
> Of course,now we all know what they are.Thats what I was wondering...


You mean after he knows in advance what he is smoking, and has preconceptions that go along with it?  People don't like to see things that way, but the fact is that all of our senses actually do very little. Most of the processing takes place in the brain, which interpolates the very incomplete data with our learned experience. A recent study showed how poor our eyes actually are, and how much of what we "see" is actually filled in by our brains.

_Hermann von Helmholtz is often credited with the first study of visual perception in modern times. Helmholtz held vision to be a form of unconscious inference: *vision is a matter of deriving a probable interpretation for incomplete data.*_

(emphasis mine)... and so it is for our other senses, taste to an even greater degree, given how closely linked to moods it is.

This is why for sensations like taste that blind taste tests for things that should be easy, are actually very hard to do. Indeed, why else would things like knowing the price of a bottle of wine affect our measurable enjoyment of it? Why would dying wine or switching the bottles affect the result of tasting the same wine? Or experts not even being able to tell the type of wine they are drinking?

We're in murky territory when it comes to taste... most people don't appreciate just how much until they try something like this. Kudos to Fredster, because a well arranged blind taste testing is indeed very difficult!

I linked to three separate blind taste tests where people loved this Cabaiguan, and wrongly guessed that it was Cuban. One of those tests wasn't even administered by me... so I don't think it is hard to believe that someone else would also like this cigar very much, and think it is Cuban as well.

Cabaiguans are great cigars... and Pete Johnson and Pepin Garcia are producing some fantastic cigars these days. That he enjoyed it doesn't really surprise me much.


----------



## yourchoice

moki said:


> I'd suggest you pick up some Cabaiguan Coronas Extras, they will taste very similar.


The Corona Gorda is one of my favorite sizes. I think I'll pick up a couple of these to see what I think!

Keep at it Fred, your reviews are spectacular.


----------



## 68TriShield

That's exactly what I mean Andrew.The mind is all powerful...


----------



## moki

68TriShield said:


> That's exactly what I mean Andrew.The mind is all powerful...


ah... sorry for the pedantic rant, then.


----------



## baglorious

I just spent an hour reading this. Awesome, kudos to both of you, and thanks for showing class on both ends.

Cabaiguan should be sending a commission to both of you. I know I want a box.

I'll look forward to #s 3-10!


----------



## moki

Fredster said:


> Cigar #3 has been smoked and I'll post results later tonight. I've got some things to do first. Moki should have his cigars today so hopefully some upcoming reviews shortly. I realize it's not sunny and 75 deg. in New York.


Looking forward to review #3! In the meantime, I've packaged up two more of those luscious Cabaiguan WCD 120s, and some other hitchhikers... coming your way via USPS Priority Mail DC# 0306 2400 0001 4016 8227. They will go out tomorrow.

These are not just the same cigar that you smoked and absolutely loved, they are from the same box, and indeed, are cigar #2's next door neighbors. This time with the bands on, and unclipped. Enjoy!


----------



## opus

Very interesting so far. I am surprised at the outcome to this point. Nice work guys.


----------



## MeNimbus

Speaking of Cabaiguans, look what is on sale at Cigar Monster: Cabaiguan Corona Extra $160 for a box :ss

I think even Cigar Monster is subscribed to this thread :r


----------



## ForestPuma

MeNimbus said:


> Speaking of Cabaiguans, look what is on sale at Cigar Monster: Cabaiguan Corona Extra $160 for a box :ss
> 
> I think even Cigar Monster is subscribed to this thread :r


:r Unbelievable. You guys are gonna start effecting the cigar market.


----------



## DBall

MeNimbus said:


> Speaking of Cabaiguans, look what is on sale at Cigar Monster: Cabaiguan Corona Extra $160 for a box :ss
> 
> I think even Cigar Monster is subscribed to this thread :r


Box Split? (no, seriously...) :tu


----------



## moki

MeNimbus said:


> Speaking of Cabaiguans, look what is on sale at Cigar Monster: Cabaiguan Corona Extra $160 for a box :ss
> 
> I think even Cigar Monster is subscribed to this thread :r


That's $56 below MSRP... or about $8 per cigar... a nice price indeed.


----------



## ForestPuma

DBall said:


> Box Split? (no, seriously...) :tu


LOL. I'm in for a 5er. Anybody else.


----------



## pnoon

DBall said:


> Box Split? (no, seriously...) :tu





Beachcougar said:


> LOL. I'm in for a 5er. Anybody else.


Take this to another thread or PMs, please.


----------



## DBall

pnoon said:


> Take this to another thread or PMs, please.


Absolutely... I realized it may not be a good idea after I posted it. I'll not contribute any more to the clutter. Sorry.

Can't wait for review #3 :tu


----------



## Puffy69

Fredster said:


> I really did want to say Cuban. Everything said Cuban about it. The only reason I didn't is because I just couldn't place the taste. Just too long since I had one of these 70's ones. I had these Monte Tubos from 1992, I think Freddy (rockstar) had them from the same source also, and they were excellent. They had that sweet Monte tangy flavor. These 70's ones just become strong and one dimentional with no bean flavors or sweetness. I'm not sure why. One of the few vintage cigars I have not cared for.
> 
> I don't agree at all with Moki that the Monte brand sucks or that vintage Motes are overated. The 70's Tubos don't do it for me though. Have had many Montes from the 70's without tubes that were just excellent. Dunhill Sel. #2 and #3 both blew me away.


I also bought 10 MCtubos from the 70's from you and to my pallet they have a very distinct vintage MC flavor to them.Dont know how you miss that one...This is a very interesting contest..Rootin for ya Fred..


----------



## tiptone

Rock Star said:


> I also bought 10 MCtubos from the 70's from you and to my pallet *they have a very distinct vintage MC flavor to them.*Dont know how you miss that one...This is a very interesting contest..Rootin for ya Fred..


It's because yours still have the bands on them.


----------



## DonWeb

Fredster said:


> Really enjoyed this cigar as evident by the nubbing it got. <snip>





moki said:


> I love this cigar too. <snip>


This is why I'm readin' the thread. Two people I highly respect agreeing on a cigar, that is available, and I haven't tried yet.

The blend is on the shelf at my local b&m ... and I have a side stop to make on the way home tonight.

Thanks guys - I'll keep readin'.


----------



## Fredster

Got busy and didn't have time to post this last night. Cigar #3 from memory:

Appearance- Dark, veiny, and fairly oily. This one has the majority of the cap left and almost looks three seemed. Hmmm, left this one on. 46 RG?

Pre-light aroma- Musty, earthy. Simialr to Cuban, but something different.

Pre-light taste- Pretty much the same as above.

Taste- Very spicy off the bat. Settles down and shows mostly a spicy, woodsy flavor. Med. maybe med-full flavor. The second half gets a little sweeter, earthier, and smoother. First half had an acrid bite to it and I did not like it. Not real complex, but not one-noted either. Didn't hate this one, but didn't love it either. Good draw and a little crooked burn. Something strange in the flavor, can't really identify.

Aroma- At first lighting very pungent and didn't like it. Did not smell Cuban. Like the taste, after burning a while, the aroma got smoother and wasn't bad in the second half, but again did not grab me as Cuban.

Rating- 6.0. Not great, but not terrible. Did not strike me as any Cuban flavor I'm familair with. 

Verdict- Something about the taste and aroma say NC to me. I'll go with NC for the same reason I did on cigar #1. Just can't identify the flavor as a Cuban I know. If it ends up being Cuban the only cigar that is similar at all I can think of is Punch.


----------



## Fredster

opus said:


> Very interesting so far. I am surprised at the outcome to this point. Nice work guys.


Just saw your signature at the botom. Too funny bro. #3 done hopefully you won't have to change it again.


----------



## Fredster

Rock Star said:


> I also bought 10 MCtubos from the 70's from you and to my pallet they have a very distinct vintage MC flavor to them.Dont know how you miss that one...This is a very interesting contest..Rootin for ya Fred..


I know it is strange Freddy. Vintage cigars can vary so much box to box depending on storage mainly. I honestly thought the 92's were much better and had more Monte taste. The ones you got from me I thought were strong and a bit one-noted, and thinking back similar to the one Moki sent me except not nearly as spicy as his. I will say I only had them a few weeks before getting rid of them all. Maybe they needed to sit longer from the long journey.


----------



## moki

Fredster said:


> Got busy and didn't have time to post this last night. Cigar #3 from memory:
> 
> Appearance- Dark, veiny, and fairly oily. This one has the majority of the cap left and almost looks three seemed. Hmmm, left this one on. 46 RG?
> 
> Pre-light aroma- Musty, earthy. Simialr to Cuban, but something different.
> 
> Pre-light taste- Pretty much the same as above.
> 
> Taste- Very spicy off the bat. Settles down and shows mostly a spicy, woodsy flavor. Med. maybe med-full flavor. The second half gets a little sweeter, earthier, and smoother. First half had an acrid bite to it and I did not like it. Not real complex, but not one-noted either. Didn't hate this one, but didn't love it either. Good draw and a little crooked burn. Something strange in the flavor, can't really identify.
> 
> Aroma- At first lighting very pungent and didn't like it. Did not smell Cuban. Like the taste, after burning a while, the aroma got smoother and wasn't bad in the second half, but again did not grab me as Cuban.
> 
> Rating- 6.0. Not great, but not terrible. Did not strike me as any Cuban flavor I'm familair with.
> 
> Verdict- Something about the taste and aroma say NC to me. I'll go with NC for the same reason I did on cigar #1. Just can't identify the flavor as a Cuban I know. If it ends up being Cuban the only cigar that is similar at all I can think of is Punch.


*Cigar #3 results*

Fredster says:

Cigar rating: 6/10
Marca: (Fredster didn't provide one)
Origin guess: "NC"
Cuban/non-Cuban: non-Cuban

Survey says:

Actual origin: Dominican
Cigar #3 is a: Don Carlos Senior Blend Robusto (5" x 48)

*Commentary:*

You're slightly off on your measurements (it's 5" x 48), but you're right on the cigar! It is indeed a non-Cuban cigar! Well done, sir!

I'm not a big fan of the Don Carlos blend, but these cigars are specially made and rolled for Don Carlos Senior, and it's a cigar that floydpink absolutely loved, and thought was Cuban. But just goes to show ya... taste varies!

You're off the schnide on this one, well done! Sorry you didn't enjoy the cigar more, but it happens. 

*Results so far:*

#1 - Cuban Montecristo Tubos 1970s -- (6.5/10) guessed non-Cuban - _Incorrect_
#2 - non-Cuban Cabaiguan WCD 120 -- (9.5/10) guessed Cuban, Davidoff Chateau Margaux - _Incorrect_
#3 - Don Carlos Senior Blend Robusto - (6/10) guessed non-Cuban - Correct!

*Score:* Cigars 2, Fredster 1


----------



## Coz77

Hes hot now:tu....Go Freadster!


----------



## floydpink

Interesting.. I'd kill for some more of those. I thought the Senior was awesome. Don't they only roll about 50 of these a week for the old man Fuente? These are not regular production either I think.


----------



## newcigarz

Nice job Fred. 

certainly does not sound like a regular production cigar:


Notes: This special blend of Don Carlos cigar is never released, it is only given away (such as at CFC 2002, 2005, and 2006) or occasionally auctioned. The blend is specially created by and for Carlos Fuente Senior; it's the cigar he smokes. 

This cigar is rolled by only one roller in one vitola only, making 50 cigars a week, this cigar has a Don Carlos profile, but has a very unique taste, due to the usage of tobacco that's not rolled into any other cigar Fuente makes. The tobacco is aged wrapper from the Oliva farm (the same wrapper used on VSGs), put into the cigar as filler.

The wrapper and filler tobacco used to create this cigar is among the best the Fuentes have available: both have at least a decade of age on them.


----------



## moki

newcigarz said:


> Nice job Fred.
> 
> certainly does not sound like a regular production cigar:


It's not -- never claimed it was!


----------



## onlyonerm

I think only the cuban cigars need to be regular production or relatively obtainable. As for the non-cubans does it really matter, Fredster just needs to pick out Cuban or Non-Cuban he certainly isn't expected to guess the marca seeing that he rarely smokes a non-cuban cigar.


----------



## Puffy69

Fredster said:


> I know it is strange Freddy. Vintage cigars can vary so much box to box depending on storage mainly. I honestly thought the 92's were much better and had more Monte taste. The ones you got from me I thought were strong and a bit one-noted, and thinking back similar to the one Moki sent me except not nearly as spicy as his. I will say I only had them a few weeks before getting rid of them all. Maybe they needed to sit longer from the long journey.


yeah, i agree on it being one noted..more like 2 notes..lol..but those notes make a great tune..good luck on the rest of your reviews..this is the most interesting thing ive seen on cs in awhile..having fun reading..


----------



## Fredster

newcigarz said:


> Nice job Fred.
> 
> certainly does not sound like a regular production cigar:
> 
> Notes: This special blend of Don Carlos cigar is never released, it is only given away (such as at CFC 2002, 2005, and 2006) or occasionally auctioned. The blend is specially created by and for Carlos Fuente Senior; it's the cigar he smokes.
> 
> This cigar is rolled by only one roller in one vitola only, making 50 cigars a week, this cigar has a Don Carlos profile, but has a very unique taste, due to the usage of tobacco that's not rolled into any other cigar Fuente makes. The tobacco is aged wrapper from the Oliva farm (the same wrapper used on VSGs), put into the cigar as filler.
> 
> The wrapper and filler tobacco used to create this cigar is among the best the Fuentes have available: both have at least a decade of age on them.


He's definately throwing me some curve balls and I expected him to make this as hard possible. I don't have a problem with it, since the main point was me determining Cuban or NC.

I did say many times earlier though that I don't have a problem with identifying Marcas I smoke a lot of that are not too young or vintage. We all know young cigars and vintage cigars sometimes taste nothing like the marca typically does. You get the true flavor from a mature cigar (5-10 years old) which is probably 90% of what I smoke. Hopefully something falls into this category so we can see if can.


----------



## Harpo

Go Fredster!!


----------



## moki

onlyonerm said:


> I think only the cuban cigars need to be regular production or relatively obtainable. As for the non-cubans does it really matter, Fredster just needs to pick out Cuban or Non-Cuban he certainly isn't expected to guess the marca seeing that he rarely smokes a non-cuban cigar.


This has already been discussed, and I disagree about anything needing to be regular production. Those were not his claims. Read back earlier in the thread, and you will see the discussion.


----------



## Harpo

Harpo said:


> Great observations, despite Moki throwing you a curve ball with a seriously aged Cuban. I think you chose to go NC in the end because you thought it was "too good to be true" and perhaps Moki was trying to trip you up. However, the review speaks for itself - plenty of Cuban character tasted and noted, and I'd wager you would've said it was Cuban if it were not for this very public taste-off. :2
> 
> Fredster 1 - Moki 0 :tu





wh0re said:


> I think you misread, Fredster got it wrong.


Re-read what I typed. Carefully.


----------



## Tw3nty

You guys are awesome. I love this thread. read it evey day. Nice pick on cigar 3 frendster. You da man!!!!!


----------



## newcigarz

b) You made specific claims about never finding a "NC" cigar that you thought was worth anything



Maybe if he had access to Don Carlos Senior's personal roller


----------



## Fredster

newcigarz said:


> b) You made specific claims about never finding a "NC" cigar that you thought was worth anything
> 
> Maybe if he had access to Don Carlos Senior's personal roller


No, I said I have yet to try a NC cigar that was worth me BUYING. That is not saying "it isn't worth anything". I stand corrected on that on one count so far. Also sounds like from the discussion to be a cigar I can't buy. Some NC's I've had were decent, but not as good to me as the almost always cheaper Cubans I buy.


----------



## Fredster

#4.

Appearance- Pyramid shaped and looks like a 54 RG. Could be smaller since this cigar is rolled very loosely. Very veiny wrapper. Claro shade. Box pressed.

Pre-light Aroma- Sweet, cedary. 

Pre-light taste- Cedary.

Taste- First inch couldn't make out anything but pepper. Thought it was going to be very strong. After an inch or so the pepper calmed down and actually was pretty mellow. Mild to Mild-med in strength and body. Cedary taste with sweet spices was the mian impression. Didn't change much start to finish. Didn't really build in flavor either. Burned crooked and tried to go out several times. Very loose draw, no resistance. Taste wasn't bad, but didn't like the aftertaste it left.

Aroma- Pleasant aroma. Not bad, but not wonderfull either. Does not smell Cuban to me.

Rating- 5. Not a terrible tasting stick, but it lost points on the construction. Very spongy. Nothing thrilling about the flavor either though.

Verdict- Does not taste like any Cuban cigar I've had, so I'm going to say NC.


----------



## Fredster

Sorry forgot pics again.


----------



## worr lord

Thanks for the review, can't wait to hear the verdict .


----------



## moki

Fredster said:


> #4.
> 
> Appearance- Pyramid shaped and looks like a 54 RG. Could be smaller since this cigar is rolled very loosely. Very veiny wrapper. Claro shade. Box pressed.
> 
> Pre-light Aroma- Sweet, cedary.
> 
> Pre-light taste- Cedary.
> 
> Taste- First inch couldn't make out anything but pepper. Thought it was going to be very strong. After an inch or so the pepper calmed down and actually was pretty mellow. Mild to Mild-med in strength and body. Cedary taste with sweet spices was the mian impression. Didn't change much start to finish. Didn't really build in flavor either. Burned crooked and tried to go out several times. Very loose draw, no resistance. Taste wasn't bad, but didn't like the aftertaste it left.
> 
> Aroma- Pleasant aroma. Not bad, but not wonderfull either. Does not smell Cuban to me.
> 
> Rating- 5. Not a terrible tasting stick, but it lost points on the construction. Very spongy. Nothing thrilling about the flavor either though.
> 
> Verdict- Does not taste like any Cuban cigar I've had, so I'm going to say NC.


*Cigar #4 results*

Fredster says:

Cigar rating: 5/10
Marca: (Fredster didn't provide one)
Origin guess: "NC"
Cuban/non-Cuban: non-Cuban

Survey says:

Actual origin: Cuban
Cigar #4 is a:  Cuban Taboada "Super Rodolfo" from LCDH in Tijauna (2006)

*Commentary:*

These are one of many various vitolas of custom-rolled cigars created by Cuban master rolled Rodolfo Taboada. This one is called the "Super Rodolfo", and it is definitely Cuban tobacco, rolled by a Cuban master roller.

While Taboada's cigars have sometimes received rave reviews, I think Fredster and I are on the same page with this one. It's not that some Taboada's I've had are bad... indeed, many have been fantastic. But it really seems to depend on the quality of tobacco he's given when he heads off to various rolling events.

I don't chase custom rolls anymore, I just don't see the point with so many regular production cigars (Cuban and otherwise) that are so good.

This was a tough one, Fredster, it isn't any regular production Cuban vitola, so it's a difficult one to guess. Coincidentally, on another forum, someone was discussing these cigars going flat of late. Ah, the perils of custom rolled Cubans.

_(btw, instructive readers will note that the shag foot was also carefully cut off of this cigar, as well as the head being snipped, to avoid this unique empirical trait from affecting the review)_

*Results so far:*

#1 - Cuban Montecristo Tubos 1970s -- (6.5/10) guessed non-Cuban - _Incorrect_
#2 - non-Cuban Cabaiguan WCD 120 -- (9.5/10) guessed Cuban, Davidoff Chateau Margaux - _Incorrect_
#3 - Don Carlos Senior Blend Robusto - (6/10) guessed non-Cuban - Correct!
#4 -  Cuban Taboada "Super Rodolfo" from LCDH in Tijauna (2006) -- (5/10) guessed non-Cuban - _Incorrect_

*Score:* Cigars 3, Fredster 1


----------



## Fredster

Sorry, no way thats a Taboada. Have smoked many of them. Not saying you weren't given this as a Taboada, but it's not. There was a huge thread reguarding some authenticity of some Taboadas a couple years ago from TJ on cigarweekly. Unless you saw Taboada roll this cigar I aint buying it. Very poor construction and weaker than any Taboada I've had. Never had a Taboada burn with a white ash like this either.

.


moki said:


> *Cigar #4 results*
> 
> Fredster says:
> 
> Cigar rating: 5/10
> Marca: (Fredster didn't provide one)
> Origin guess: "NC"
> Cuban/non-Cuban: non-Cuban
> 
> Survey says:
> 
> Actual origin: Cuban
> Cigar #4 is a:  Cuban Taboada "Super Rodolfo" from LCDH in Tijauna (2006)
> 
> *Commentary:*
> 
> These are one of many various vitolas of custom-rolled cigars created by Cuban master rolled Rodolfo Taboada. This one is called the "Super Rodolfo", and it is definitely Cuban tobacco, rolled by a Cuban master roller.
> 
> While Taboada's cigars have sometimes received rave reviews, I think Fredster and I are on the same page with this one. It's not that some Taboada's I've had are bad... indeed, many have been fantastic. But it really seems to depend on the quality of tobacco he's given when he heads off to various rolling events.
> 
> I don't chase custom rolls anymore, I just don't see the point with so many regular production cigars (Cuban and otherwise) that are so good.
> 
> This was a tough one, Fredster, it isn't any regular production Cuban vitola, so it's a difficult one to guess.
> 
> _(btw, instructive readers will note that the shag foot was also carefully cut off of this cigar, as well as the head being snipped, to avoid this unique empirical trait from affecting the review)_
> 
> *Results so far:*
> 
> #1 - Cuban Montecristo Tubos 1970s -- (6.5/10) guessed non-Cuban - _Incorrect_
> #2 - non-Cuban Cabaiguan WCD 120 -- (9.5/10) guessed Cuban, Davidoff Chateau Margaux - _Incorrect_
> #3 - Don Carlos Senior Blend Robusto - (6/10) guessed non-Cuban - Correct!
> #4 -  Cuban Taboada "Super Rodolfo" from LCDH in Tijauna (2006) -- (5/10) guessed non-Cuban - _Incorrect_
> 
> *Score:* Cigars 3, Fredster 1


----------



## hollywood

Toboada? Really? Now that is crazy. Although IMO they are too pricey; I have NEVER had one that did not taste Cuban. Ever.


----------



## moki

hollywood said:


> Toboada? Really? Now that is crazy. Although IMO they are too pricey; I have NEVER had one that did not taste Cuban. Ever.


Blind taste testing is harder than you might think... it really is.


----------



## icehog3

Per Andrew's pre-experiment PM, cigars 3 & 4 were listed as:

#3 - Don Carlos Senior Blend Robusto non-Cuban 

#4 - Cuban Taboada "Super Rodolfo" from LCDH in Tijauna (2006) Cuban


----------



## tandblov

How exactly does one "verify" that even if it was rolled by Taboada, that he wasn't using non-cuban tobacco?


----------



## bonggoy

Granted I haven't smoked that much Taboada, this is the lightest wrapper I've seen from Taboada.


----------



## bassrocker

Dude I seen that cigar last night when I went to Freds for band rehersal . I have never seen a Tobaoda that looked looked that  Are you sure of what you are buying ? Fred spends more on cigars a year than I make in a year , I'm not buying this whole thing . :BS


Mike


----------



## moki

tandblov said:


> How exactly does one "verify" that even if it was rolled by Taboada, that he wasn't using non-cuban tobacco?


It was definitely rolled by Taboada in 2006, I can give you the name (via PM) of the CigarPass.com member who went down to TJ and picked up a number of these for people there, myself included. Follow the links, check the dates, look at the pictures...

As for what tobacco Taboada was using, you're going to have to take that up with him. One would reasonably assume it was Cuban tobacco, though.


----------



## moki

bassrocker said:


> Dude I seen that cigar last night when I went to Freds for band rehersal . I have never seen a Tobaoda that looked looked that  Are you sure of what you are buying ? Fred spends more on cigars a year than I make in a year , I'm not buying this whole thing . :BS


Yes, I am positive that every cigar is exactly what I've stated it is. Whether you "buy it" or not because you don't like the results does not change the veracity of the blind taste test. Follow the links, check the dates, look at the pictures...

But really, these constant attacks on my integrity and knowledge of cigars is getting old. It's not acceptable to malign someone's character simply because you don't like the results of this blind taste test. There is no reason to get so emotional or worked up over it... they are just cigars, and this is intended to be an educational and entertaining experiment, not an assault on either of us personally. Let's keep it that way.

It's funny how the cigar he got right (the Don Carlos Senior Blend Robusto) was not questioned. I doubt other cigars that he gets right in terms of country of origin will be contested, either. Are we really only going to doubt the veracity of only the cigars that he gets wrong?


----------



## PadronMe

bassrocker said:


> Dude I seen that cigar last night when I went to Freds for band rehersal . I have never seen a Tobaoda that looked looked that  Are you sure of what you are buying ? Fred spends more on cigars a year than I make in a year , I'm not buying this whole thing . :BS
> Mike


While I find this blind test to be very interesting, the constant critisism of Moki is getting old. It's a blind taste test between Fredster and Moki for fun( yeah I know there is a $100 wager but apparently Fredster has plenty to spend on cigars). Lets just enjoy the thread for what it is and quit giving Moki the third degree.:2


----------



## Thurm15

I'd like to see a Blind test using only Regular Production cigars.


----------



## JCK

I believe Fred has the right to doubt what he had smoked. He is indeed the one that smoked it. I don't think Fred is attacking your veracity, but at the least the provenance of this cigar.

If Fred had said that he's smoked a few examples of Taboadas as opposed to 'many' then I would agree that he doesn't have a leg to stand on. But given the agreement that rote memorization of a particular profile plays a big part in 'blind' taste tests, you would expect that Fred would know this cigar unless Taboadas aren't characterized by a specific profile.


----------



## floydpink

Thurm15 said:


> I'd like to see a Blind test using only Regular Production cigars.


Start one up then. bet you'd get plenty of volunteers to taste the regular productions.

One more wrong, and we hit "Moki's watermark".


----------



## moki

Thurm15 said:


> I'd like to see a Blind test using only Regular Production cigars.


This has already been discussed, and I disagree about anything needing to be regular production. Those were not his claims. Read back earlier in the thread, and you will see the discussion.


----------



## sirxlaughs

moki said:


> Yes, I am positive that every cigar is exactly what I've stated it is. Whether you "buy it" or not because you don't like the results does not change the veracity of the blind taste test.
> 
> It's funny how the cigar he got right (the Don Carlos Senior Blend Robusto) was not questioned. I doubt other cigars that he gets right in terms of country of origin will be contested, either. Are we really only going to doubt the veracity of only the cigars that he gets wrong?


I think it's still too early to say that people are going to doubt the cigars that he guesses wrong. Besides, people can only doubt based on what he says (unless they were also there with him, like a few others). Not to mention that you seem to be close with the Fuentes. After seeing pictures of footballs being smoked, you could give me a cigar rolled from newsprint, say it was rolled by Don Carlos Senior, and I would probably believe you (although, I can't say I would smoke it.. haha). 
Many of the people on this board are very "tightly knit." I am sure you were already expecting naysayers and such to come out and ask for further validity. 
I, as well as just about everyone else here, enjoy the arguments you make and the entertaining taste tests. Just don't let anyone get under your skin too much. :tu


----------



## hollywood

moki said:


> Blind taste testing is harder than you might think... it really is.


I know it's hard and I know _*I could not do it*_. However; I've smoked these with gentlemen here who have easily picked out Toboadas; even in PPPs with several other smokes without bands going at the same time. Whether you like them or not; think they are worth it or not; or question the tobaccos origin; they are unique. And unique usually stands out.


----------



## moki

khubli said:


> I believe Fred has the right to doubt what he had smoked. He is indeed the one that smoked it. Unfortunately this does boil down to possibly veracity, but at the least the provenance of this cigar.


I disagree. If he doubts what any of the cigars are, it is one of two things:

1) He believes I am intentionally lying about what the cigars are, despite sending a list of them to icehog3 ahead of time, before his results were known

2) He believes that I do not know the provenance of each cigar that is in this test.

Regarding the Taboada, this is where it came from. Check the dates, look at the pictures. I'm not sure what else to tell you.

Regarding #1 above, I stated everything I wanted to state here. I do think it's sad that ad hominem attacks on my character are a result of people not liking the results... I've never had this happen in any blind taste test that I've administered on any forum, and I've done many of them.

We haven't seen anyone launch into these kinds of statements on the cigar that Fredster got right... why would that be any different. Why wasn't the Don Carlos Senior Blend something other than what I represented it to be? Because he guessed it right? c'mon...

Seriously people... mellow out. These cigars are what I've stated they are, and the provenance is known. Attacking _me_ because you don't like the results is really an unfortunate thing to do.


----------



## Fredster

moki said:


> It was definitely rolled by Taboada, I can give you the name (via PM) of the CigarPass.com member who went down to TJ and picked up a number of these for people there, myself included.
> 
> As for what tobacco Taboada was using, you're going to have to take that up with him. One would reasonably assume it was Cuban tobacco, though.


Your friend may have went there and picked them up, but Taboada did not roll these guaranteed. I'm not going through the trouble of posting the info from cigarweekly. Basically what happened was I bought a bundle of Dom. P Taboadas from Moises in TJ (not in person) 3 years ago or so. They arrived and were all rolled way to loose to be Taboadas work and also had soft spots just like this one. Now I used to be very into these Taboadas and they are rolled looser than reg. prod Cubans, but not grossly underfilled like this was and certainly not with soft spots. This gentleman (can't remember his name but a search will show) Had connections and eventually called Taboada or someone close to him to verify this batch was rolled by him for TJ. He said no. Now nobody ever admitted to this, but I was given a full refund no questions asked. I will tell you I smoked one too and it sucked.

A while back (maybe 2 years)we had a guy from another board I'm on which I will not disclose pick some up for members while Taboada was there. Other guys that got some from this guy will verify. Obviously a totally different cigar in construction, taste, and strength.

So believe what you want. You should have stuck to cigars you bought and can vouch for. This sounds very familiar to a past cigar you sent me doesn't it?


----------



## tandblov

moki said:


> One would reasonably assume it was Cuban tobacco, though.


I can't say one way or another.

However, it would be an assumption and not verifiable.


----------



## psu08

PadronMe said:


> While I find this blind test to be very interesting, the constant critisism of Moki is getting old. It's a blind taste test between Fredster and Moki for fun( yeah I know there is a $100 wager but apparently Fredster has plenty to spend on cigars). Lets just enjoy the thread for what it is and quit giving Moki the third degree.:2


:tpd: My thoughts exactly. It's really amazing how much some people seem to care about a blind taste test that 1) was meant to be fun, and 2) doesn't really involve them in any way. I think there is more hostility in this thread than the rest of the board combined...it seems like people are actually accusing Moki of cheating and lying about this contest. The results are definitely interesting so far, and I look forward to the rest of the contest, though reading through all the constant bickering and criticism is getting old fast.


----------



## JCK

Andrew, I do have to apologize. I did not mean to state that Fred was attacking your veracity. I need to proof what I type before I click add reply. The statement you made regarding your veracity carried over into my post.


----------



## RedBaron

I hate to say it but most of the Taboadas I've had have tasted different. I could never say "It has that Taboada taste", I for one can say, I stood there and watched him roll the cigars.

Moki isnt some chump off the street with no solid sources. I think it should be kept fun, and light hearted. If anything a learning experience for all of us on how to differentiate tastes in cigars.


----------



## mikeyj23

One out of five gorillas currently online are currently viewing this thread.


----------



## moki

Fredster said:


> Your friend may have went there and picked them up, but Taboada did not roll these guaranteed. I'm not going through the trouble of posting the info from cigarweekly. Basically what happened was I bought a bundle of Dom. P Taboadas from Moises in TJ (not in person) 3 years ago or so. They arrived and were all rolled way to loose to be Taboadas work and also had soft spots just like this one. Now I used to be very into these Taboadas and they are rolled looser than reg. prod Cubans, but not grossly underfilled like this was and certainly not with soft spots. This gentleman (can't remember his name but a search will show) Had connections and eventually called Taboada or someone close to him to verify this batch was rolled by him for TJ. He said no. Now nobody ever admitted to this, but I was given a full refund no questions asked. I will tell you I smoked one too and it sucked.
> 
> A while back (maybe 2 years)we had a guy from another board I'm on which I will not disclose pick some up for members while Taboada was there. Other guys that got some from this guy will verify. Obviously a totally different cigar in construction, taste, and strength.
> 
> So believe what you want. You should have stuck to cigars you bought and can vouch for. This sounds very familiar to a past cigar you sent me doesn't it?


What can I tell you, look at this picture. Is that not Señor Taboada on the couch? The person who picked these up stated he saw Taboada rolling them... and another CP member was down there with them. Were they both lying? Were they both duped?

And yes, this does sound familiar... it's unfortunate that not liking the results ends up in being "the cigar must be wrong" not "I was wrong". You doubted the Montecristo. You doubted the Cabaiguan. You did not doubt the Don Carlos Senior Blend (but you got that right). And now you're doubting this cigar.

I think it's a really unfortunate way to "poison the well", so to speak, regarding this test. I think Occam's razor is applicable here. Is it more likely that the provenance of each cigar is wrong, or is it more likely that blind taste testing is hard, and you may have gotten some wrong?

It's just going to get really old if the cigars, and myself, are put on trial any time you get one of them wrong... and neither is questioned any time you get them right.


----------



## mitro

Hahahahahahaha. I love it. This thread has sealed the deal for me. I'm done with this thread, the fake-ass elites on this site, and the site all together. Thank you moki for trying to enlighten people. 

Adios!


----------



## moki

RedBaron said:


> I hate to say it but most of the Taboadas I've had have tasted different. I could never say "It has that Taboada taste", I for one can say, I stood there and watched him roll the cigars.
> 
> Moki isnt some chump off the street with no solid sources. I think it should be kept fun, and light hearted. If anything a learning experience for all of us on how to differentiate tastes in cigars.


I agree completely -- especially regarding the taste of Taboadas. This the case with most custom rolls, especially done at rolling events... they use whatever tobacco they are given. Sometimes it is good, sometimes it is not.

I have yet to find any consistent "Taboada taste" across the various years of custom rolled Taboadas that I've had. Which makes complete sense, the raw materials are different every time he rolls 'em.


----------



## RedBaron

I think it goes for Cubans and non-cubans alike. I've been to rolling events for la Aurora, sometimes they're awesome, sometimes they're sub-par.


----------



## floydpink

mitro said:


> Hahahahahahaha. I love it. This thread has sealed the deal for me. I'm done with this thread, the fake-ass elites on this site, and the site all together. Thank you moki for trying to enlighten people.
> 
> Adios!


Sad. Man up, you got punked by a $40 Cuban Cigar regardless of how many decades you've been smoking them. Run the table and collect your 100 bucks.


----------



## rumballs

moki said:


> What can I tell you, look at this picture. Is that not Señor Taboada on the couch? The person who picked these up stated he saw Taboada rolling them... and another CP member was down there with them. Were they both lying? Were they both duped?


what I read in that thread (emphasis added) is:


> Seadub and I had a nice trip and enjoyed a good smoke but came back empty handed due to lack of immediate availability and the UNBELIEVEABLE PRICES!! ...
> Eventhough they did not have enough cigars to sell bundles right then and there, they are taking orders and do take credit cards now.
> 
> We both smoked Taboada Sublimes that were rolled just for us as soon as we arrived. They were fantastic cigars!! Very fresh and potent!


I'm not going to venture any opinion as to whether it was or wasn't a Taboada - I didn't smoke it.
But when you say:


moki said:


> The person who picked these up stated he saw Taboada rolling them...


... that just isn't true based on the thread that you yourself cite...


----------



## worr lord

RedBaron said:


> I think it goes for Cubans and non-cubans alike. I've been to rolling events for la Aurora, sometimes they're awesome, sometimes they're sub-par.


Yep. It happens with solid production cigars as well. Ever lit up your favorite standby to find it tasted off?

I know it's been said before, but why is everyone getting so worked up? Fredster and Moki are the only BOTLs involved here, and to attack either brother's character, from a spectator's seat, anyway, is insane.


----------



## Fredster

psu08 said:


> :tpd: My thoughts exactly. It's really amazing how much some people seem to care about a blind taste test that 1) was meant to be fun, and 2) doesn't really involve them in any way. I think there is more hostility in this thread than the rest of the board combined...it seems like people are actually accusing Moki of cheating and lying about this contest. The results are definitely interesting so far, and I look forward to the rest of the contest, though reading through all the constant bickering and criticism is getting old fast.


Noboby said he was cheating or lying. Have you ever been given a fake cigar from someone? If it was given to them and presented as real and they thought it was, thats not lying.

I consider myself pretty experienced and I was duped on some of these from TJ too.

A couple more points then i'm moving on. All of you guys that have lots of experience with Taboadas, how many have you seen with a claro wrapper? None. Last batch I got he actually rolled some with aged Corojo wrapper (all gone and not grown anymore) that was light colorado and smooth as silk. Perfectly rolled. Not grossly underfilled and loose. All of the others I've seen had very dark wrappers. They are also very strong and do not go flat in 2 years. Totally absurd. These cigars are still strong as hell after 10 years.


----------



## RedBaron

When I saw him rolling, Moises brought him some corojo wrapper to use, and he didnt want to use it.


----------



## moki

mmblz said:


> what I read in that thread (emphasis added) is:
> 
> I'm not going to venture any opinion as to whether it was or wasn't a Taboada - I didn't smoke it.
> But when you say:
> 
> ... that just isn't true based on the thread that you yourself cite...


Sigh. I reiterated exactly what I was told; I do not doubt atuck's veracity. If you want to believe that he was duped, and he ended up with fakes... fine, go for it. Are we going to do the same for the Montecristo's (bought via a group buy with 3x5card), and also the Cabaiguans? What about the cigars that Fredster guesses correctly, will they be called into question too?

Search on CP for atuck and tabaoda... there are plenty of threads there, I will look more closely later on.

http://www.cigarpass.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=23670&hl=taboada

http://www.cigarpass.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=15575&hl=taboada

http://www.cigarpass.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=14851&hl=taboada

I'm done trying to prove the provenance of these cigars; every one that Fredster has gotten wrong, it has been called into question. The one thus far that he's gotten right, it was not doubted for a moment.

I think this is pretty unfortunate.


----------



## bassrocker

:BS


----------



## rumballs

moki said:


> Sigh. He also returned a second time, I will find the thread and post that here as well. I reiterated exactly what I was told; I do not doubt atuck's veracity that he picked up these cigars, and that they are legitimate.


OK.
I only posted at all because what you said didn't jive with the thread you linked to to "prove" it...
That is all.


----------



## tandblov

moki said:


> The one thus far that he's gotten right, it was not doubted for a moment.


I suspect that is because there is not a plethora of counterfit or "fake" Don Carlos special release cigars.

BTW, I am not saying one way or another.


----------



## Habanolover

bassrocker said:


> Dude I seen that cigar last night when I went to Freds for band rehersal . I have never seen a Tobaoda that looked looked that  Are you sure of what you are buying ? Fred spends more on cigars a year than I make in a year , I'm not buying this whole thing . :BS
> 
> Mike


I think it is sooooooo cool that you can tell not only the Country of origin from just looking at a cigar but that you can also tell who the roller was.:r


----------



## Smoked

This started out as a pretty fun read but now it's just depressing.


----------



## Mark THS

Smoked said:


> This started out as a pretty fun read but now it's just depressing.


It certainly has taken a turn in a direction that isnt good for any parties involved. I think it would be wise if a few PM's were exchanged


----------



## Scimmia

Honestly, is anyone suprised it went this way? A bunch of us where in the chatroom when this all started, and the only comments were along the lines of "this isn't going to end well".


----------



## moki

Okay, well, look. I posted where these cigars were from, when they were obtained, and who picked them up. There are pictures documenting that he was there, and there are numerous threads on CP regarding his frequent trips down to LCDH in TJ, picking up these cigars.

If you want to believe, based on Fredsters review of this cigar, that it is not the genuine article, and that atuck was duped, there's nothing I can do about it.

All I can say is that numerous people on CP with extensive cigar knowledge partook in these group buys, and none of them questioned the authenticity of these cigars (but then none of them were involved a blind taste testing, with something on the line either). Atuck also made numerous trips down to LCDH in TJ, providing myself and others with Taboada cigars from various rolling events, so he does know what he's getting.

If we're to believe that this cigar is fake because Fredster says it didn't "taste Cuban", then we must also assume that the Cabaiguan WCD 120 is also fake, because that _did_ taste Cuban to him. Based on the same logic, the Cabaiguan must not be real, and it must be Cuban. Which isn't correct, but that's the road you go down with this line of thinking.

Beyond that, there's not much more that I can say... except that it seems that every cigar Fredster gets wrong comes into strong question in terms of authenticity. He might just be wrong, you know.


----------



## moki

tandblov said:


> I suspect that is because there is not a plethora of counterfit or "fake" Don Carlos special release cigars.
> 
> BTW, I am not saying one way or another.


But actually, there are a plethora of counterfeit and fake Don Carlos cigars. Visit the Dominican Republic, or many tourist destinations in the Caribbean, and you will find them.

I suspect that had he guessed the Taboada correctly, there would not be this kind of scrutiny regarding its provenance.


----------



## pistol

RedBaron said:


> I hate to say it but most of the Taboadas I've had have tasted different. I could never say "It has that Taboada taste", I for one can say, I stood there and watched him roll the cigars.
> 
> Moki isnt some chump off the street with no solid sources. I think it should be kept fun, and light hearted. If anything a learning experience for all of us on how to differentiate tastes in cigars.


This thread is getting downright nasty... RedBaron, you saw him roll the cigar that people are questioning?


----------



## croatan

Just a suggestion: this would probably go smoother and end better if there weren't two pages of comments/insults/insinuations between each post by one of the actual participants in the tasting.

At this point, I'm going to respectfully request that unless you actually have a _contribution _to make to this thread, folks not directly involved refrain from cluttering it up or adding unnecessary fuel to any fires.


----------



## Thurm15

moki said:


> This has already been discussed, and I disagree about anything needing to be regular production. Those were not his claims. Read back earlier in the thread, and you will see the discussion.


I have read most of the thread and I wasn't knocking your Test with Fredster which I find to be interesting and entertaining. I was simply stating that I'd like to see a Blind Taste Test using Regular Production cigars from Floydpinks collection.


----------



## moki

Thurm15 said:


> I have read most of the thread and I wasn't knocking your Test with Fredster which I find to be interesting and entertaining. I was simply stating that I'd like to see a Blind Taste Test using Regular Production cigars from Floydpinks collection.


Understood, and I think that would be an interesting test as well. Keep in mind that it would largely be about marca taste profile memorization more than anything else... but that could be interesting, too.


----------



## Boston_Dude05

I've been following this thread with interest. However, I gotta say where is Moki getting all these obscure smokes? A 1970s Montey that he just got and shipped OTT? Who knows what conditions those were stored? Then a Taboada which was rolled custom?? These could be real but could be fake or have major variations. Seriously, let's go with some more of the regular production stuff if this thread were to have any merit. I'd say limit it to major marcas produced in the last 10-15 years. So far this test proves nothing to me. :BS


----------



## moki

Boston_Dude05 said:


> I've been following this thread with interest. However, I gotta say where is Moki getting all these obscure smokes? A 1970s Montey that he just got and shipped OTT? Who knows what conditions those were stored? Then a Taboada which was rolled custom?? These could be real but could be fake or have major variations. Seriously, let's go with some more of the regular production stuff if this thread were to have any merit. I'd say limit it to major marcas produced in the last 10-15 years. So far this test proves nothing to me. :BS


Already in this thread, I actually stated where I obtained these cigars (both the Montecristos and the Taboadas, no one questioned the Don Carlos Senior Blend that he guessed correctly as being non-Cuban). I have a fairly extensive collection of cigars; I don't think having these cigars is unusual at all. In a previous blind taste test, I sent Fyodor a Cuban Davidoff No.1, which he absolutely loved, and got right in terms it it being Cuban. He was also sent one of the 1970's Montecristo Tubos, and he got that one wrong just as Fredster did.

In the group blind taste testing that I'm doing right now, I sent each of the 10 participants a early 1980's H.Upmann Naturales... which 7/8 of the reviewers actually correctly identified as being Cuban (though no one got the marca correct). Again, I don't see what's so unusual, many people who have reasonable collections of cigars have this type of stock.

As for the conditions that they were stored in, I know what conditions they were stored in, and this too has already been covered in the thread (two temperature and humidity controlled humidors, which I store everything in).

As for the "regular production stuff", this has already been discussed, and I disagree about anything needing to be regular production. Those were not his claims. Read back earlier in the thread, and you will see the discussion.

I notice that you didn't complain about the Don Carlos Senior Blend (which Fredster got right in terms of being non-Cuban) -- that definitely is not regular production either. I realize that you're not liking the results of this test, and I realize that it's often easier to cry foul or complain about the test itself instead of acknowledging the results... but man. This is excessive.


----------



## Mrs.Ron1YY

croatan said:


> Just a suggestion: this would probably go smoother and end better if there weren't two pages of comments/insults/insinuations between each post by one of the actual participants in the tasting.
> 
> At this point, I'm going to respectfully request that unless you actually have a _contribution _to make to this thread, folks not directly involved refrain from cluttering it up or adding unnecessary fuel to any fires.


I wish people would have more respect for what the mods are trying to do here.

Doreen


----------



## Zoomschwortz

Mrs.Ron1YY said:


> I wish people would have more respect for what the mods are trying to do here.
> 
> Doreen


Anyone ever read this thread started by rjs?

http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showthread.php?t=83704


----------



## onlyonerm

bassrocker said:


> :BS


How much of your quotes have to do with having a personal friendship with Fredster. I have no pony in this race it was my hope this was to be an informative thread with out all the bull.


----------



## moki

Anyway, I think Fredster and I have both stated everything we wanted to regarding the Taboada. Nothing more to say, really.

Soooo, moving on...

I'm looking forward to cigar #5... and let's hope it is less controversial than #4 was.


----------



## mash

I think we all respect the mods, but the reality is there are some negative perceptions about this test that were entirely predictable, and at least partly avoidable. I suggested earlier in this thread that Moki allow someone neutral to select the cigars. I believe he has a bias against Cuban cigars regardless of what he says, and I suspect I am not alone. I also think that he personalizes these tests, and then down the read he appears surprised and hurt that people question him.
If he had allowed someone else to choose the sticks, there would be a greater perception of neutrality, and the tone of this thread would be different. That would have also removed him from the center of the test which would have made this less competitive. The focus really would have been on the cigars. He chose not to go that route.
This was all about Fred differentiating Cuban vs. Non-Cuban, Moki continually says how hard this is, then goes on to suggest that if Fred did well it would be purely memorization of taste. As if he could pick apart the hundreds of potential Cuban and Non-Cuban regular production cigars that could have been included here, smoking them at a rate of 2-3 per day. 

I may have been born at night, but it wasn't last night.


----------



## kheffelf

Ok, I have stayed out of this thread, but this is crazy. This is Moki's taste test, he is the one who put it together and did so in the best way he saw fit. Yes, him and Fredster have had problems in the past and it is coming up a little bit again in this thread. But please lets just leave this between these two guys, and let them be the people who make post in this thread. Croatan has asked this already, but what do mods know?


----------



## moki

mash said:


> I think we all respect the mods, but the reality is there are some negative perceptions about this test that were entirely predictable, and at least partly avoidable. I suggested earlier in this thread that Moki allow someone neutral to select the cigars. I believe he has a bias against Cuban cigars regardless of what he says, and I suspect I am not alone. I also think that he personalizes these tests, and then down the read he appears surprised and hurt that people question him.


You seem to be missing the point. I picked the cigars that I did for a reason... that reason is that they would be hard to distinguish between Cuban and non. If someone else selected the cigars, would they have put a Cabaiguan WCD 120 into the test? I seriously doubt it.

Stating I have a bias "against Cuban cigars" is silly. I own and smoke Cuban cigars all of the time. What I have a "bias against" is sweeping generalizations about cigars based on country of origin. If you recall, I did the same type of blind taste test right here on ClubStogie when someone claimed they could pick out a Nicaraguan cigar anywhere. So this clearly has nothing to do with "Cuba". Fredster made some very broad claims; this test is a result of that.

If someone else picked the cigars, would they have as much experience as I do in selecting cigars that would "cross the line" in terms of people's tastes and perceptions? I doubt it.



> If he had allowed someone else to choose the sticks, there would be a greater perception of neutrality, and the tone of this thread would be different. That would have also removed him from the center of the test which would have made this less competitive. The focus really would have been on the cigars. He chose not to go that route.


Yes, I chose to organize a blind taste test myself, rather than have someone else do it for me. Simply because _you_ think it should be done a certain way doesn't mean that's how it should be done. When you do your own blind taste testing, feel free to do it that way.

Again, I have done these blind taste tests with many people on many forums. I have never had my character called into question in any of them as a way to taint the results. I have also never had the cigars themselves be called into question in terms of provenance or authenticity when someone gets the origin wrong.



> This was all about Fred differentiating Cuban vs. Non-Cuban, Moki continually says how hard this is, then goes on to suggest that if Fred did well it would be purely memorization of taste. As if he could pick apart the hundreds of potential Cuban and Non-Cuban regular production cigars that could have been included here, smoking them at a rate of 2-3 per day


This is a straw-man argument, because that is _not_ what I stated. What I said was that if I just picked regular production cigars that he was very familiar with, I agree he'd do well at guessing what they were. However, that was not what Fredster claimed. He claimed he could tell a Cuban cigar anywhere, that he had never had a non-Cuban cigar that "impressed" him, and they he could pick out Cuban marcas pretty easily.

His claims are what this test is about, and why I chose the cigars that I did.



> I may have been born at night, but it wasn't last night.


You seem to be one of the people who is making this personal, and not keeping it strictly about the cigars. I find that both ironic, and unfortunate.

Let's put all of this aside, and finish the blind taste test as is -- as Fredster accepted it. I have realized that absolutely nothing I say will make a difference to people who have so much emotionally invested in this, or who don't want to accept the results as being legitimate.


----------



## SteveDMatt

kheffelf said:


> Ok, I have stayed out of this thread, but this is crazy. This is Moki's taste test, he is the one who put it together and did so in the best way he saw fit. Yes, him and Fredster have had problems in the past and it is coming up a little bit again in this thread. But please lets just leave this between these two guys, and let them be the people who make post in this thread. Croatan has asked this already, but what do mods know?


:tpd:

I would love to actually see the results of this, flawed or not. It's almost impossible with all of the useless chatter.

I realize this is just more usless chatter.


----------



## DBall

croatan said:


> Just a suggestion: this would probably go smoother and end better if there weren't two pages of comments/insults/insinuations between each post by one of the actual participants in the tasting.
> 
> At this point, I'm going to respectfully request that unless you actually have a _contribution _to make to this thread, folks not directly involved refrain from cluttering it up or adding unnecessary fuel to any fires.


:tu I think this an important post


----------



## BigVito

SteveDMatt said:


> :tpd:
> 
> I would love to actually see the results of this, flawed or not. It's almost impossible with all of the useless chatter.
> 
> I realize this is just more usless chatter.





DBall said:


> :tu


yeah these three posts help


----------



## Boston_Dude05

moki said:


> *Cigar #4 results*
> 
> While Taboada's cigars have sometimes received rave reviews, I think Fredster and I are on the same page with this one. It's not that some Taboada's I've had are bad... indeed, many have been fantastic. But it really seems to depend on the quality of tobacco he's given when he heads off to various rolling events.


Let's get real here, you have admitted that some are bad some are fantastic. How can one gauge what type of smoke it is then? If you get a bad one, as you state they can exist, then one may have guessed NC and if it's on, then one can clearly say it's CC. As you pointed out it depends on the "quality of tobacco he's given when he heads off to various rolling events" so no matter whether Taboada is there or not it doesn't make a difference. Quality will still vary based on what type of tobacco is there. If such a marca is so inconsistent you can't include it in the blind taste test. The result will be skewed. I'm really starting to conclude this blind taste test is very flawed. Of course you will argue otherwise to try to prove your point. However the cigars supplied so far are highly questionable.

To disprove me, why don't you send more regular production lines to Fredster? Let's see if he will get those right. I'd wager on those.


----------



## moki

As per the list that I sent to icehog3 when the test started, it looks like the next two cigars that are up in the taste test (#5 and #6) are lancero-ish vitolas.

How about we look forward to the reviews on these cigars, instead of this bickering?


----------



## Boston_Dude05

moki said:


> As per the list that I sent to icehog3 when the test started, it looks like the next two cigars that are up in the taste test (#5 and #6) are lancero-ish vitolas.
> 
> How about we look forward to the reviews on these cigars, instead of this bickering?


We shall see. I suspect you will have a 1960s smoke that is OTT which has varying degrees of consistency which will be hard to guess by default?? Or you will simply choose a smoke that doesn't taste like it is supposed to, in order to throw off Fredster? All marcas will have deviations, but focusing on those anomalies to win this contest is definitely skewed.


----------



## moki

Boston_Dude05 said:


> Let's get real here, you have admitted that some are bad some are fantastic. How can one gauge what type of smoke it is then? If you get a bad one, as you state they can exist, then one may have guessed NC and if it's on, then one can clearly say it's CC. As you pointed out it depends on the "quality of tobacco he's given when he heads off to various rolling events" so no matter whether Taboada is there or not it doesn't make a difference. Quality will still vary based on what type of tobacco is there. If such a marca is so inconsistent you can't include it in the blind taste test. The result will be skewed. I'm really starting to conclude this blind taste test is very flawed. Of course you will argue otherwise to try to prove your point. However the cigars supplied so far are highly questionable.
> 
> To disprove me, why don't you send more regular production lines to Fredster? Let's see if he will get those right. I'd wager on those.


...or not.

We could rehash things that have already been discussed, and I disagree about anything needing to be regular production. Those were not his claims. Read back earlier in the thread, and you will see the discussion.

Sigh. I'm sorry you don't like the cigars that I included. They are based on the broad statements that were made in terms of "recognizing a Cuban cigar anywhere" and "not being impressed by any NC cigar" and so on and so forth. Given these broad statements, I think anything is fair game.

If you don't, that's okay... ignore this thread, or start one of your own blind taste tests that has the criteria _you_ think is appropriate. Anything is fine, but we've rehashed this argument ad-naeseum already. Read the posts I linked to above for my stance on it. If you disagree, that's fine, but I'm done trying to argue it with you.

...and now on with the test!


----------



## moki

Boston_Dude05 said:


> We shall see. I suspect you will have a 1960s smoke that is OTT which has varying degrees of consistency which will be hard to guess by default?? Or you will simply choose a smoke that doesn't taste like it is supposed to, in order to throw off Fredster? All marcas will have deviations, but focusing on those anomalies to win this contest is definitely skewed.


In your focusing on the custom rolled Taboada, you are ignoring the results from the Cabaiguan WCD 120. Was that cigar not "fair"? He still got it wrong... how should that result be written off or ignored or attacked?

What about the Don Carlos Senior Blend that he got right? Was that "unfair" because it is not a regular production cigar, and one that few people will ever see, let alone smoke? He got it right... how should that result be written off or ignored or attacked?

What about this test of Nicaraguan cigars... what was wrong with the cigar selection there? That one was about the same thing this one is... whether broad statements can really be made about country of origin... it just happened to be about a different country (Nicaragua in that case).

How about this blind taste test with floydpink... what was wrong with the cigar selection there?

Or more poignantly, how about this blind taste test with Fydor, which also had the 1970's Cuban Montecristo and Cabaiguan WCD 120 that were present in Fredster's line up so far (as well as a Cuban Davidoff No.1)... what was wrong with the cigar selection there?

Only one cigar has been smoked, but is there something wrong with the cigar selection here? Was it unfair to include a 1980's H.Upmann Naturales?

There are numerous other blind taste tests that I have not administered that have had very surprising results... to everyone involved. There are many examples of these on this forum, as well as on others.

I don't think all of the drama is necessary... or useful.


----------



## Da Klugs

Agendas are the pretty party dresses worn by drama queens. :r

It's just a fun lil thread. Interpret the results as you will but it's meant to be fun and stimulate dialog. That dialog is part of the purpose of the thread being here in the first place. Opinions are great and important. It's also important to keep it friendly.

If you don't like the set-up then start your own test. Use whatever cigars you want, pick whomever you want to do the blind smoking. This one is done and the process is almost 1/2 over.


----------



## Boston_Dude05

moki said:


> ...or not.
> 
> We could rehash things that have already been discussed, and I disagree about anything needing to be regular production. Those were not his claims. Read back earlier in the thread, and you will see the discussion.
> 
> Sigh. I'm sorry you don't like the cigars that I included. They are based on the broad statements that were made in terms of "recognizing a Cuban cigar anywhere" and "not being impressed by any NC cigar" and so on and so forth. Given these broad statements, I think anything is fair game.
> 
> If you don't, that's okay... ignore this thread, or start one of your own blind taste tests that has the criteria _you_ think is appropriate. Anything is fine, but we've rehashed this argument ad-naeseum already. Read the posts I linked to above for my stance on it. If you disagree, that's fine, but I'm done trying to argue it with you.
> 
> ...and now on with the test!


:r I see that I've gotten you to admit the test is skewed...


----------



## Boston_Dude05

moki said:


> In your focusing on the custom rolled Taboada, you are ignoring the results from the Cabaiguan WCD 120. Was that cigar not "fair"? He still got it wrong... how should that result be written off or ignored or attacked?
> 
> What about the Don Carlos Senior Blend that he got right? Was that "unfair" because it is not a regular production cigar, and one that few people will ever see, let alone smoke? He got it right... how should that result be written off or ignored or attacked?


No one ever argued that Cabaiguan was inconsistent which was the root of my argument. If the Taboada was consistent, then it's fair game my friend  Let's have Don Pepin say the WCD 120 is off in consistency...


----------



## worr lord

Da Klugs said:


> If you don't like the set-up then start your own test. Use whatever cigars you want, pick whomever you want to do the blind smoking. This one is done and the process is almost 1/2 over.


Sig worthy.


----------



## bazookajoe

Da Klugs said:


> Agendas are the pretty party dresses worn by drama queens...


That is signature line worthy. :tu


----------



## yamaha6000

It's pretty sad the way everyone is doubting moki. All he is doing is proving wrong the notion that cubans are the cats meow to EVERYONE. If you like cubans, good for you! If you don't, good for you! Just don't run around saying that cuban cigars are the best thing since sliced bread, or moki will prove you wrong. Kudos to moki and Fred for doing this, keep on....


----------



## moki

Boston_Dude05 said:


> No one ever argued that Cabaiguan was inconsistent which was the root of my argument. If the Taboada was consistent, then it's fair game my friend  Let's have Don Pepin say the WCD 120 is off in consistency...


Okay, fair enough... but all cigars can be inconsistent. Certainly I think custom rolls are generally more so than regular production cigars, but again... the Don Carlos Senior Blend robusto is not a regular production cigar either... no complaints over that? And Fredster did not narrow is assertions to "regular production cigars", so I don't see why I should narrow my cigar selection to them.

Making up rules post-facto is not really helpful. But I do think you should run your own blind taste test, and see how it goes. Cigar selection is important, though! 

I did not pick the Taboada because I figured "well, these can be more inconsistent" -- I picked it because it's not a regular production Cuban vitola, and because it isn't a marca blend that I thought he'd be intimately familiar with. In other words, it was testing the taste of the Cuban leaf, not any particular marca blend, and without the vitola foreknowledge.


----------



## Boston_Dude05

moki said:


> Okay, fair enough... but all cigars can be inconsistent. Certainly I think custom rolls are generally more so than regular production cigars, but again... the Don Carlos Senior Blend robusto is not a regular production cigar either... no complaints over that? And Fredster did not narrow is assertions to "regular production cigars", so I don't see why I should narrow my cigar selection to them.
> 
> Making up rules post-facto is not really helpful. But I do think you should run your own blind taste test, and see how it goes. Cigar selection is important, though!


I just don't want to see Fredster get beaten up unfairly...


----------



## BigVito

blah blah blah


----------



## moki

Boston_Dude05 said:


> I just don't want to see Fredster get beaten up unfairly...


I understand, and I appreciate that sentiment. However, I think if you look at my statements, I don't think I've been beating him up. I've congratulated him when he's gotten it right, and I've been very careful to state here numerous times that blind taste testing is hard, and giving him kudos for stepping up to the plate.

The comments from others, I can't control. However, speaking for myself, I think there is no "loss of face" if he doesn't get 7/10 right. This experiment is about checking your preconceptions at the door, and seeing what your taste buds have to say when you don't know what you're smoking.

As such it can be a very enlightening and educational experience... if you're willing to open yourself up to it and embrace it.

I stated it before, and I'll state it again... I don't think anyone will think more or less of Fredster based on how well he does in this test... which is just a test about the very personal, and very "fuzzy" nature of taste.

I posted the links to expert wine taste testers and sommeliers getting wine taste tests wrong as a way to show that even experts have trouble with taste when it is done blind.


----------



## Boston_Dude05

moki said:


> I understand, and I appreciate that sentiment. However, I think if you look at my statements, I don't think I've been beating him up. I've congratulated him when he's gotten it right, and I've been very careful to state here numerous times that blind taste testing is hard, and giving him kudos for stepping up to the plate.
> 
> The comments from others, I can't control. However, speaking for myself, I think there is no "loss of face" if he doesn't get 7/10 right. This experiment is about checking your preconceptions at the door, and seeing what your taste buds have to say when you don't know what you're smoking.
> 
> As such it can be a very enlightening and educational experience... if you're willing to open yourself up to it and embrace it.
> 
> I stated it before, and I'll state it again... I don't think anyone will think more or less of Fredster based on how well he does in this test... which is just a test about the very personal, and very "fuzzy" nature of taste.
> 
> I posted the links to expert wine taste testers and sommeliers getting wine taste tests wrong as a way to show that even experts have trouble with taste when it is done blind.


Unfortunately I've been told not to post anymore...at least until the very end. What happened to our Freedom of Speech? Apparently I'm ruffling the feathers of NC fans....over and out for now.


----------



## floydpink

Boston_Dude05 said:


> I just don't want to see Fredster get beaten up unfairly...


Looks like he's being beaten quite fairly by some cigars a lot of readers would love to be smoking.:ss

I hope we get to see a conclusion.


----------



## pistol

Boston_Dude05 said:


> I just don't want to see Fredster get beaten up unfairly...


So instead, you go after the guy that puts this together, nice man! I'm sorry, but this is HIS taste test. The only claim that Fredster made was that he could tell Cuban from Non-Cuban tobacco. Moki has put together a taste test with just that- Cuban and Non-Cuban tobaccos. What in the hell is so unfair about this taste test? I don't get it! No claims were made about aged tobaccos, custom blends, hard to find cigars, etc. This is ONLY about Cuban versus Non-Cuban cigars. Am I wrong? Someone show me a link in thins thread where Fred or Andrew said "only run standard, run of the mill, regular release cigars can be used."


----------



## DennisP

Boston_Dude05 said:


> Unfortunately I've been told not to post anymore...at least until the very end. What happened to our Freedom of Speech? Apparently I'm ruffling the feathers of NC fans....over and out for now.


Freedom of speech has nothing to do with private messge boards. :mn


----------



## BigVito

DennisP said:


> Freedom of speech has nothing to do with private messge boards. :mn


:tpd:


----------



## JBI

Boston_Dude05 said:


> Let's get real here, you have admitted that some are bad some are fantastic. How can one gauge what type of smoke it is then? If you get a bad one, as you state they can exist, then one may have guessed NC and if it's on, then one can clearly say it's CC. As you pointed out it depends on the "quality of tobacco he's given when he heads off to various rolling events" so no matter whether Taboada is there or not it doesn't make a difference. Quality will still vary based on what type of tobacco is there. If such a marca is so inconsistent you can't include it in the blind taste test. The result will be skewed. I'm really starting to conclude this blind taste test is very flawed. Of course you will argue otherwise to try to prove your point. However the cigars supplied so far are highly questionable.
> 
> To disprove me, why don't you send more regular production lines to Fredster? Let's see if he will get those right. I'd wager on those.


That wasn't his claim.

And.............because there are bad Cuban cigars and great Cuban cigars that have ALL CUBAN tobacco in them (might be a surprise to some I know :r)! Just like there are terrible non-Cuban cigars and great non-Cuban cigars that have NO Cuban tobacco in them! This taste test is based on the easy claim of differentiating Cuban tobacco from non-Cuban tobacco, regardless if it's good or bad based on someones personal opinion!!!

BTW, for the record, I love Cubans and many non-Cubans. I also think Padrons are way over-rated and many (not all) Fuentes are over-priced kool-aid that people still chase constantly as they hold back supply to keep prices up. Pepin made and blended sticks on the other hand (not all), are worth the average price of admission IMHO.

Like I said in a previous reply, it's a humbling experience once you do it yourself regardless of how much you think you know as the blindfolds are put on so to speak. Moreover, there are a ton of cigars, particularly from Nicaragua, that taste similar to Cubans which have come out in the last few years specifically that are better than many Cubans! .

Carry on........:ss


----------



## Boston_Dude05

pistol said:


> So instead, you go after the guy that puts this together, nice man! I'm sorry, but this is HIS taste test. The only claim that Fredster made was that he could tell Cuban from Non-Cuban tobacco. Moki has put together a taste test with just that- Cuban and Non-Cuban tobaccos. What in the hell is so unfair about this taste test? I don't get it! No claims were made about aged tobaccos, custom blends, hard to find cigars, etc. This is ONLY about Cuban versus Non-Cuban cigars. Am I wrong? Someone show me a link in thins thread where Fred or Andrew said "only run standard, run of the mill, regular release cigars can be used."


:r You have been drinking the Kool-aid I see...


----------



## Boston_Dude05

JBI said:


> That wasn't his claim.
> 
> And.............because there are bad Cuban cigars and great Cuban cigars that have ALL CUBAN tobacco in them (might be a surprise to some I know :r)! Just like there are terrible non-Cuban cigars and great non-Cuban cigars that have NO Cuban tobacco in them! This taste test is based on the easy claim of differentiating Cuban tobacco from non-Cuban tobacco, regardless if it's good or bad based on someones personal opinion!!!
> 
> BTW, for the record, I love Cubans and many non-Cubans. I also think Padrons are way over-rated and many (not all) Fuentes are over-priced kool-aid that people still chase constantly as they hold back supply to keep prices up. Pepin made and blended sticks on the other hand (not all), are worth the average price of admission IMHO.
> 
> Like I said in a previous reply, it's a humbling experience once you do it yourself regardless of how much you think you know as the blindfolds are put on so to speak. Moreover, there are a ton of cigars, particularly from Nicaragua, that taste similar to Cubans which have come out in the last few years specifically .
> 
> Carry on........:ss


I think Moki will disagree the Padrons are way over-rated :r


----------



## Puffy69

Da Klugs said:


> Agendas are the pretty party dresses worn by drama queens. :r
> 
> It's just a fun lil thread. Interpret the results as you will but it's meant to be fun and stimulate dialog. That dialog is part of the purpose of the thread being here in the first place. Opinions are great and important. It's also important to keep it friendly.
> 
> If you don't like the set-up then start your own test. Use whatever cigars you want, pick whomever you want to do the blind smoking. This one is done and the process is almost 1/2 over.


well said...so lets you and i do our own blind test..no customs, no tricks..just some straight up cigars....ive never done a blind test..had to guess a couple times what i was smoking but i think it would be cool to see if i know my pallet knows what it is smoking..i hate to think i cant tell but i havent smoked an NC in ages..even my wife says she can tell the difference...


----------



## pistol

Boston_Dude05 said:


> :r You have been drinking the Kool-aid I see...


Dude, you can insult me, but go ahead and show me the link! Why is this test unfair? Where did they agree to only standard production cigars?! It makes sense that Andrew would try to trick Fred because Fred made the claim that he could tell Cuban tobacco versus non-Cuban tobacco! Andrew would be doing a pretty poor job of proving his point if he made it easy for Fred wouldn't he?! I mean come on! This test is about Cuban tobacco versus non-Cuban tobacco, isn't it?? Am I crazy here?


----------



## malinois1

Lots of drama in this thread.  Moki has nothing to gain here so why would he try and skew the results. I am sure just the 10 cigars sent are worth more than $100....so even if he wins the bet he loses money.


----------



## smitty

WOW, I thought I had joined the board where there are no cigar snobs.


----------



## Boston_Dude05

pistol said:


> Dude, you can insult me, but go ahead and show me the link! Why is this test unfair? Where did they agree to only standard production cigars?! It makes sense that Andrew would try to trick Fred because Fred made the claim that he could tell Cuban tobacco versus non-Cuban tobacco! Andrew would be doing a pretty poor job of proving his point if he made it easy for Fred wouldn't he?! I mean come on!


No one said to include smokes that were inconsistent my friend. I can fool you too, say if you liked Padrons and I sent you one that was off. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate this thread and you can check my posts, but seriously if there is an experiment, controls need to be in place. You can't have the anomalies lead to a broad-based conclusion.


----------



## BigVito

smitty said:


> WOW, I thought I had joined the board where there are no cigar snobs.


did you see Madagascar vanilla in any of the reviews?


----------



## Da Klugs

Rock Star said:


> well said...so lets you and i do our own blind test..no customs, no tricks..just some straight up cigars....ive never done a blind test..had to guess a couple times what i was smoking but i think it would be cool to see if i know my pallet knows what it is smoking..i hate to think i cant tell but i havent smoked an NC in ages..even my wife says she can tell the difference...


Now we're talking. So what rules could we come up with that would make the test results have validity in the eyes of the peanut gallery? Let's take it off line and when this is over....


----------



## Snoman13

smitty said:


> WOW, I thought I had joined the board where there are no cigar snobs.


Quoted for mother ***king truth.

Just wanted to say thanks moki for your generosity in running these. I feel for ya, personal attacks are never any fun, but don't let one bad apple ruin a barrel of potential Cigar School candidates! :cb


----------



## floydpink

Bring on Cigar #5 !!!!!

Let the leaf do the talkin.


----------



## pistol

Boston_Dude05 said:


> No one said to include smokes that were inconsistent my friend. I can fool you too, say if you liked Padrons and I sent you one that was off. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate this thread and you can check my posts, but seriously if there is an experiment, controls need to be in place. You can't have the anomalies lead to a broad-based conclusion.


I never said that I couldn't be fooled! How can you tell with any certainty if a cigar is going to be off (without smoking that particular cigar)? Taste is subjective, that's why some of us like certain cigars and some of us don't. How could Moki or Fred tell that the Don Carlos was off?? Fred didn't recognize the flavor and called it correctly, does that mean it was off?? Fred didn't recognize the Cabaiguan and incorrectly called it Cuban, does it mean that the Cabaiguan was off?? Just because he didn't recognize the Taboada doesn't mean that it was off! It just means that he didn't recognize the cigar! For Christ's sake, this isn't an experiment, it's a blind tast test to see if someone can really tell Cuban tobacco versus non-Cuban tobacco without studying the vitola and band! By including run of the mill cigars that Fred sees all the time, it'd be much easier for him tell what it is without relying solely on taste! By using rare cigars, Fred has to rely solely on taste because he probably hasn't seen the cigars that he's smoking as many times as he's seen a standard production robusto.


----------



## BigVito

everyone shut up and let Moki and Fredster post only:hn


----------



## Sandman

pistol said:


> This test is about Cuban tobacco versus non-Cuban tobacco, isn't it?? Am I crazy here?


 Nope, that's exactly what it's about. Either he can taste the difference or he can't. There is no trick by Moki. Its either Cuban tobacco or it's not and he says he can taste the difference. It shouldn't matter if it is vintage, new production, special production, regional production, commissioned production etc. Either he can definitively taste the difference or he can't. If he can't then he fails the test. What is so hard about this?


----------



## compuag

BigVito said:


> everyone shut up and let Moki and Fredster post only:hn


:tpd:


----------



## Boston_Dude05

floydpink said:


> Bring on Cigar #5 !!!!!
> 
> Let the leaf do the talkin.


:tpd: Bring it on!


----------



## BigVito

Boston_Dude05 said:


> :tpd: Bring it on!


----------



## Hank

Sandman said:


> Nope, that's exactly what it's about. Either he can taste the difference or he can't. There is no trick by Moki. Its either Cuban tobacco or it's not and he says he can taste the difference. It shouldn't matter if it is vintage, new production, special production, regional production, commissioned production etc. Either he can definitively taste the difference or he can't. If he can't then he fails the test. What is so hard about this?


Nothing. The only problem is that there is only a handful of us 
that understand this.

How many post dose Moki have in this thread were he 
links Fredsters claims about how he can tell the difference 
between Cuban and Non-Cuban cigars, the reason why he
choose the cigars he did and the rules of the blind taste test?

I am now a contributor of the B/S in this thread


----------



## BigVito

Hank said:


> Nothing. The only problem is that there is only a handful of us
> that understand this.
> 
> How many post dose Moki have in this thread were he
> links Fredsters claims about how he can tell the difference
> between Cuban and Non-Cuban cigars, the reason why he
> choose the cigars he did and the rules of the blind taste test?
> 
> I am now a contributor of the B/S in this thread


----------



## txmatt

Fredster said:


> If it's a specially comissioned cigar then the tobacco was likely aged even though it was an 07 cigar. In any event I definately want to try some more samples. If it not readily available then I still have not found a NC cigar I like and can buy.


Fredster you may have one in your humidor; I sent you a Cabaiguan last year after you sent me all of those yummy aged cigars from your cache. The robusto will be a bit milder than the WD120 but it has remained my favorite DPG cigar since carbonbased_al sent me one. It has a plain looking yellow band..


----------



## Zoomschwortz

Boston_Dude05 said:


> Unfortunately I've been told not to post anymore...at least until the very end. What happened to our Freedom of Speech? Apparently I'm ruffling the feathers of NC fans....over and out for now.


WOW!
That lasted a whole 7 minutes.


----------



## Boston_Dude05

Zoomschwortz said:


> WOW!
> That lasted a whole 7 minutes.


Stop provoking me :r Seriously I'm done w/this thread.


----------



## BigVito

Zoomschwortz said:


> WOW!
> That lasted a whole 7 minutes.


I want to know what Boston dude as against the Tar Heels


----------



## althekillr

> What can I tell you, look at this picture. Is that not Señor Taboada on the couch? The person who picked these up stated he saw Taboada rolling them... and another CP member was down there with them. Were they both lying? Were they both duped?
> 
> And yes, this does sound familiar... it's unfortunate that not liking the results ends up in being "the cigar must be wrong" not "I was wrong". You doubted the Montecristo. You doubted the Cabaiguan. You did not doubt the Don Carlos Senior Blend (but you got that right). And now you're doubting this cigar.
> 
> I think it's a really unfortunate way to "poison the well", so to speak, regarding this test. I think Occam's razor is applicable here. Is it more likely that the provenance of each cigar is wrong, or is it more likely that blind taste testing is hard, and you may have gotten some wrong?
> 
> It's just going to get really old if the cigars, and myself, are put on trial any time you get one of them wrong... and neither is questioned any time you get them right.


FWIW, my experience with the Taboada cigars has been all over the map. That one batch of 2006 cigars I got from TJ were pretty bad. i had to pitch the couple I tried. Nothing liike the 2004 batch. After I tried that 2006 cigar, which is one that was picked from the table as well and brought back by a friend, I cancelled my trip to go down there. I just thought he got a inferior batch of tobacco. I have heard from some people that that first two weeks of tobacco he was using in that 2006 visit was different somehow, but all I know is I rarely pitch cigars even if they aren't that good and these were bad. Had a 2004 Dom Perrignon blend tonight, these were sublime when fresh rolled, but now are just pretty good cigars and nothing special.

Haven't read this whole thread to see if someone has stated something similar, but just my:2


----------



## moki

Boston_Dude05 said:


> I think Moki will disagree the Padrons are way over-rated :r


I'd disagree, sure, but it wouldn't bother me at all. It's personal taste, if he doesn't like 'em, or thinks they aren't worth the money, that's fine. If he said something like "I don't like any cigars from Nicaragua" or "I can pick out a Nicaraguan cigar anywhere", then I might be tempted to do something like this. 

EDIT: Just re-read my summary post for the above blind taste test. Funny that Lance panned an aged Opus and the only Cuban in the line-up. 

Anyway, JBI, I live in Rochester too (Webster, actually) -- we should get together for a smoke sometime!  PM me for my number, maybe I can slip ya some Koolaid!


----------



## moki

althekillr said:


> FWIW, my experience with the Taboada cigars has been all over the map. That one batch of 2006 cigars I got from TJ were pretty bad. i had to pitch the couple I tried. Nothing liike the 2004 batch. After I tried that 2006 cigar, which is one that was picked from the table as well and brought back by a friend, I cancelled my trip to go down there. I just thought he got a inferior batch of tobacco. I have heard from some people that that first two weeks of tobacco he was using in that 2006 visit was different somehow, but all I know is I rarely pitch cigars even if they aren't that good and these were bad. Had a 2004 Dom Perrignon blend tonight, these were sublime when fresh rolled, but now are just pretty good cigars and nothing special.
> 
> Haven't read this whole thread to see if someone has stated something similar, but just my:2


That jives with my experiences, and others as well. For what it's worth!


----------



## Zoomschwortz

malinois1 said:


> Lots of drama in this thread.  Moki has nothing to gain here so why would he try and skew the results. I am sure just the 10 cigars sent are worth more than $100....so even if he wins the bet he loses money.


:tpd:
I'd like to bet Moki $100 that I could pick the grape blunt out of the same line up.

Even though I would lose the bet, it would be one of the best cigar deals I got in a long time.

Thanks Moki for this and your other tests and a big thanks to Fredster for stepping up to the plate as well.:tu


----------



## Smoked

I just want to see the next cigar.


----------



## JBI

moki said:


> I'd disagree, sure, but it wouldn't bother me at all. It's personal taste, if he doesn't like 'em, or thinks they aren't worth the money, that's fine. If he said something like "I don't like any cigars from Nicaragua" or "I can pick out a Nicaraguan cigar anywhere", then I might be tempted to do something like this.
> 
> Any, JBI, I live in Rochester too (Webster, actually) -- we should get together for a smoke sometime!


That could be arranged I'm sure, LMK.

Padron's, to me, have mostly a sweet and chary taste which doesn't float my boat personally. Furthermore, I don't find them particularly full-bodied like some.


----------



## txmatt

Andrew, John (JBI) and I pm frequently here and on HP and I had been meaning to ask him if you guys knew one another. It's possible (though unlikely) "Lil' Pep" has a cigar from Senior Garcia you have not smoked yet.

Thanks to you Andrew and Fredster for his participation in this..

-Matt-



moki said:


> I'd disagree, sure, but it wouldn't bother me at all. It's personal taste, if he doesn't like 'em, or thinks they aren't worth the money, that's fine. If he said something like "I don't like any cigars from Nicaragua" or "I can pick out a Nicaraguan cigar anywhere", then I might be tempted to do something like this.
> 
> EDIT: Just re-read my summary post for the above blind taste test. Funny that Lance panned an aged Opus and the only Cuban in the line-up.
> 
> Anyway, JBI, I live in Rochester too (Webster, actually) -- we should get together for a smoke sometime!  PM me for my number, maybe I can slip ya some Koolaid!


----------



## Puffin Fresh

Boston_Dude05 said:


> No one said to include smokes that were inconsistent my friend. I can fool you too, say if you liked Padrons and I sent you one that was off. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate this thread and you can check my posts, but seriously if there is an experiment, controls need to be in place. You can't have the anomalies lead to a broad-based conclusion.


how exactly does one send a cigar they know will be off unless a whole box is off or unless you are accusing Moki of intentionally ruining a $40 cigar before he sent it out.

The back and forth commentary in this thread is truly getting old. This thread had so much potential also.

Each side has their fanboys and they have their opinions but why not let this play out between moki and fredster? What do you have to lose?

Let's all take the advice of the mods and keep the back and forth out of this thread before this turns into a bigger issue and more people leave (I've seen at least one in this thread already).

Edit for full disclosure... I'm not rooting for either side. I thought it would have been freaking sweet to see someone go 10/10, but also realize how hard it is. Oh, and in case moki somehow forgets this thread and decides to offer another test, I think all aged dunhills are better than aged davidoffs and rare opus. :r


----------



## duhman

There's no Cuban I would like, aged or otherwise!  
All NCs are better.


----------



## billybarue

txmatt said:


> Andrew, John (JBI) and I pm frequently here and on HP and I had been meaning to ask him if you guys knew one another. It's possible (though unlikely) "Lil' Pep" has a cigar from Senior Garcia you have not smoked yet.
> 
> Thanks to you Andrew and Fredster for his participation in this..
> 
> -Matt-


Since they lived so close I figured these two were old buddies.

Matt, If they'll have us, I'll get you a buddy pass at my airline and we'll fly up there too. I'll bring the Brahmas!!!:r

Great job Moki, best of luck on the remaining Fredster. I Enjoy the thorough reviews.

Cheers


----------



## Da Klugs

duhman said:


> There's no Cuban I would like, aged or otherwise!
> All NCs are better.


Generic statements and generalizatons are never 100% accurate. Ever had a 20 year old special Cuban?


----------



## moki

Da Klugs said:


> Generic statements and generalizatons are never 100% accurate. Ever had a 20 year old special Cuban?


I'd do a blind taste test with them.


----------



## Da Klugs

moki said:


> I'd do a blind taste test with them.


They'd have to be blind. :r


----------



## icehog3

Sauer Grapes said:


> Each side has their fanboys and they have their opinions but why not let this play out between moki and fredster? What do you have to lose?
> 
> Let's all take the advice of the mods and keep the back and forth out of this thread before this turns into a bigger issue and more people leave (I've seen at least one in this thread already).


Word. :2


----------



## Smoked

Now That Was Funny!


----------



## Puffy69

Da Klugs said:


> Generic statements and generalizatons are never 100% accurate. Ever had a 20 year old special Cuban?


:r ide do a side by side tasting...when your ready on that,lmk dave.


----------



## kvm

I thought this would be a great and informative thread. Destined to be a classic. If I had magical mod powers I'd be inclined to lock this thread down so only Moki and Fredster could post and move all the :BS to a new thread called " My opinion of The Great Fredster Blind Taste Test" While discussion about the results can certainly add something, I'm not seeing it yet. The challenge is what it is. 

Apologies to Croatan for also not listening to his voice of reason.


----------



## icehog3

kvm said:


> I thought this would be a great and informative thread. Destined to be a classic. If I had magical mod powers I'd be inclined to lock this thread down so only Moki and Fredster could post and move all the :BS to a new thread called " My opinion of The Great Fredster Blind Taste Test" While discussion about the results can certainly add something, I'm not seeing it yet. The challenge is what it is.
> 
> Apologies to Croatan for also not listening to his voice of reason.


While the suggestion has merit, it would require locking and unlocking the thread everytime Fred or Andrew wanted to post, and would likely result in delays in their being able to post. If people would just show a little self-control and/or restraint and let the experiment play out, it would be a more enjoyable experience.


----------



## hk3

duhman said:


> There's no Cuban I would like, aged or otherwise!
> All NCs are better.


You must have been smoking fakes or you are high on the pipe.


----------



## Fredster

No, I questioned the one I got right also to you in Pm because even it did not measure to what you said. Not even close. You said 5 X 50 it was 5 X 46. You later said you remeasured and 5 X 48. No it's a 46 I held it uo to a Mag 46. Exact same size foot.

Never got an answer to why this "Taboada" had an extreme box press. Read my review I noted it and you can see it from the picture. Kind of odd since Taboadas are sold in bundles and always round. Moki said he didn't notice it was box pressed when sent. Does this add up to anyone. Bassrocker was over Wed Night and he saw it and said it was the spongiest underfilled stick he ever saw. I suggested sending the cigars to Tom for inspection before we started this test for measurement and just visual verification, but Moki blew that off and said it wasn't necessary. I suggested this becasue of strange past events.



moki said:


> Sigh. I reiterated exactly what I was told; I do not doubt atuck's veracity. If you want to believe that he was duped, and he ended up with fakes... fine, go for it. Are we going to do the same for the Montecristo's (bought via a group buy with 3x5card), and also the Cabaiguans? What about the cigars that Fredster guesses correctly, will they be called into question too?
> 
> Search on CP for atuck and tabaoda... there are plenty of threads there, I will look more closely later on.
> 
> http://www.cigarpass.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=23670&hl=taboada
> 
> http://www.cigarpass.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=15575&hl=taboada
> 
> http://www.cigarpass.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=14851&hl=taboada
> 
> I'm done trying to prove the provenance of these cigars; every one that Fredster has gotten wrong, it has been called into question. The one thus far that he's gotten right, it was not doubted for a moment.
> 
> I think this is pretty unfortunate.


----------



## wh0re

So why did you even agree to do this BTT Fredster? It's obvious that you aren't going to believe anything moki says and you think he is cheating.

EDIT:you deleted your previous post because you thought it was adding fuel to the fire.I should delete this one too if thats the case.
If you are not Fred or moki you should not be posting in here at this time...period!


----------



## PadronMe

smitty said:


> WOW, I thought I had joined the board where there are no cigar snobs.


Think again.


----------



## Mbraud4

Please, enough with the bullshit fellas. This is getting rediculous to even try to read. Ive beared with it long enough. If you arent in the test...just dont post until its finished, how hard can that be. I apologize to the mods for posting as I dont want to go against my own advice; however this will be my last post in the thread until its finished. I just wish that all the members posting in this thread would mature up a bit and show some self control.

If you think moki is cheating.....fine.....just hold your comments until the test is finished.

If you think fredster is being a poor sport......fine......just hold your comments until the test is finished.

Let me say this...whatever you think....if youre not in the test....you bring absolutely nothin to the table at this point in this thread.


You guys are giving the mods hell trying to police this thread and keep it civil....whats the point? Why do it? 

Much respect to both moki and fredster, I look forward to the remaining results. 

And even more so respect to the mods b/c I know this has got to be a headache.


----------



## pnoon

Your whole post is spot on, Brother. I 've quoted the highlights.


Mbraud4 said:


> I just wish that all the members posting in this thread would mature up a bit and show some self control.





Mbraud4 said:


> just hold your comments until the test is finished.





Mbraud4 said:


> if youre not in the test....you bring absolutely nothin to the table at this point in this thread.


----------



## onlyonerm

Da Klugs said:


> They'd have to be blind. :r


:r:r:r Funniest thing I have read yet!


----------



## Coz77

I think this thread finally needs the respect it deserves click here :chk


----------



## D. Generate

Sigh. This thread had some great potential. I think it's been squandered by an unrelenting and ill mannered peanut gallery.

Don't want to sound like a snob but I miss the old jungle. Now it's like a once pristine park over run by loud mouthed asses leaving beer cans and trash in their wake.

I might be a jackass for posting this, but if you take offense it is likely that you should. It was intentional.

I think I'll just unsubscribe to this thread, go elsewhere and hope the bitter taste goes away.


----------



## Fredster

pnoon said:


> Your whole post is spot on, Brother. I 've quoted the highlights.


Agreed, and I'll keep my comments other than reviews reserved until the end of the test. This has to be a nightmare for the mods.


----------



## Tw3nty

Boston_Dude05 said:


> I just don't want to see Fredster get beaten up unfairly...


I do not understand this as a newbie. No one is beating Frendster up. Moki is getting attacked. Frendster Got 10 free cigars. That is cool enough. I would love to get any of the sticks Moki sent him for free. I ll get everyone wrong and be happy I got some nice cigars.

But, as a newbie my worry is about the site. I hope that this can be kept under control so new people are not scared away.

Us newbies look to you more experienced member fro knowledge. Ad homonym arguments do not help us. I love this site and do not want to see it tarnished.

Plus, I agree. IF you do not like the idea of this taste test, do your own.

I created one with a BOTL not because i did not like this one, but because i can not get or understand the taste of the cigars these guys can.

SO, we did a baby version.

The way I see it. 2 guys agreed to a contest. its there rules. Let them do it.


----------



## Fredster

Cigar #5. Think everyone will be happy with results from this one. 

Appearance- Dark, oliy and veiny with dark blotches.

Pre-light aroma- Sweet like baked goods. Very distinct, and have only smelled this on one cigar in the past. Not Cuban smell.

Pre-light Taste- Same as above.

Taste- Lots of sweet, earthy tones and pretty complex. Fairly full flavor, but light-med in body. Perfect draw and burn. Smooth and balanced. Burns with a white ash. Only some very vintage Cubans do this.

Aroma- Pleasant aroma. Does not smell Cuban.

Rating- 8.5.

Verdict- NC. Tastes like one of few top NC's I've had in the past. Smoked one of these several years ago and if this is the same cigar it really has improved with age. The one I had several years ago was strong, harsh, and one-noted. The cigar I'm thinking of is a Fuente Opus Forbidden X. Only other cigar I had similar to this was a Fuente Anejo. It may suprise some to say I like a NC cigar. Not suprising to me since I said the 99 Opus robusto Andrew sent me in the past was pretty good. I just feel considering the price, and not being able to find aged NC's, I can find mature and vintage Cubans I like better for the same $$$ or less. I can see why someone with different tastes than me would buy these though for sure.


----------



## pinoyman

Good luck on this one Fred! 

Thanks again Moki for the BTT.


----------



## Fredster

Pics from #5.


----------



## moki

Fredster said:


> Cigar #5. Think everyone will be happy with results from this one.
> 
> Appearance- Dark, oliy and veiny with dark blotches.
> 
> Pre-light aroma- Sweet like baked goods. Very distinct, and have only smelled this on one cigar in the past. Not Cuban smell.
> 
> Pre-light Taste- Same as above.
> 
> Taste- Lots of sweet, earthy tones and pretty complex. Fairly full flavor, but light-med in body. Perfect draw and burn. Smooth and balanced. Burns with a white ash. Only some very vintage Cubans do this.
> 
> Aroma- Pleasant aroma. Does not smell Cuban.
> 
> Rating- 8.5.
> 
> Verdict- NC. Tastes like one of few top NC's I've had in the past. Smoked one of these several years ago and if this is the same cigar it really has improved with age. The one I had several years ago was strong, harsh, and one-noted. The cigar I'm thinking of is a Fuente Opus Forbidden X. Only other cigar I had similar to this was a Fuente Anejo. It may suprise some to say I like a NC cigar. Not suprising to me since I said the 99 Opus robusto Andrew sent me in the past was pretty good. I just feel considering the price, and not being able to find aged NC's, I can find mature and vintage Cubans I like better for the same $$$ or less. I can see why someone with different tastes than me would buy these though for sure.


*Cigar #5 results*

Fredster says:

Cigar rating: 8.5/10
Marca: Forbidden X / Anejo
Origin guess: "NC"
Cuban/non-Cuban: non-Cuban

Survey says:

Actual origin: Dominican
Cigar #4 is a:  non-Cuban Don Carlos Lancero 7 ½" x 41 from 1999

*Commentary:*

You nailed it! While this is not an Opus X or an Añejo (and has a rather different taste profile than them), you knocked it out of the park in terms of guessing that it is non-Cuban, and also seeming to nail down the manufacturer (Fuente) as well.

I'm glad you enjoyed this cigar; Carlito said it was one of the first Don Carlos Lanceros made, so its from circa 1999 or so. Strange that you seemed to really like this cigar, but not the Don Carlos Senior Blend. I wonder if it is the age, because the blend is very similar.... and that Don Carlos Senior Blend cigar was relatively young (2006) in comparison. Oh well, if nothing else, that shows the fickle nature of taste.

Perhaps what you really enjoy more than anything else is aged tobacco -- and I wouldn't blame ya for that one bit. I think that's an important point for people who smoke aged Cuban cigars... try some aged non-Cuban cigars too... because it may be the age you enjoy as much as anything else. Well done, sir, nice pick!

Oh well, at least we found another non-Cuban cigar that you really liked... and I agree with ya, great cigar!

As I stated previously, while I'm not a big fan of the Don Carlos blend, there is something about these lanceros, I really enjoy them. It's similar for Montecristos, I seem to only really enjoy aged Monte Especials when it comes to that blend. Who knows?

*Results so far:*

#1 - Cuban Montecristo Tubos 1970s -- (6.5/10) guessed non-Cuban - _Incorrect_
#2 - non-Cuban Cabaiguan WCD 120 -- (9.5/10) guessed Cuban, Davidoff Chateau Margaux - _Incorrect_
#3 - Don Carlos Senior Blend Robusto - (6/10) guessed non-Cuban - Correct!
#4 -  Cuban Taboada "Super Rodolfo" from LCDH in Tijauna (2006) -- (5/10) guessed non-Cuban - _Incorrect_* 
#5 -  non-Cuban Don Carlos Lancero from 1999 -- (8.5/10) guessed non-Cuban, Opus X or Añejo - Correct!

*Score:* Cigars 3, Fredster 2

_* Fredster questions the authenticity of this cigar_


----------



## moki

Just in case anyone wants to question the authenticity of the Don Carlos Lancero, it was from a "karate team" sampler that I purchased to support the CFCF karate team in the DR. I can list the person who went down there to pick the cigars up, that they was handed to him by Carlito, and that Carlito told him it was one of the first Don Carlos Lanceros rolled.

I have no proof beyond that regarding the authenticity of this cigar, and no pictures of it taking place, but I stand behind the veracity of the person who picked it up, and that the cigar is what I stated it is.


----------



## Fredster

I would say if the blends were similar (which they didn't seem to be at all), I didn't like the other one because of the age difference. The 99 definately was very balanced and had that soft character of mature tobacco. The Fuentes have such a distinct pre-light aroma. Almost like gingerbread. It's been years since I had smoked one but that smell and taste really burned into my memory.

Good smoke, thanks.



moki said:


> *Cigar #5 results*
> 
> Fredster says:
> 
> Cigar rating: 8.5/10
> Marca: Forbidden X / Anejo
> Origin guess: "NC"
> Cuban/non-Cuban: non-Cuban
> 
> Survey says:
> 
> Actual origin: Dominican
> Cigar #4 is a:  non-Cuban Don Carlos Lancero 7 ½" x 41 from 1999
> 
> *Commentary:*
> 
> You nailed it! While this is not an Opus X or an Añejo (and has a rather different taste profile than them), you knocked it out of the park in terms of guessing that it is non-Cuban, and also seeming to nail down the manufacturer (Fuente) as well.
> 
> I'm glad you enjoyed this cigar; Carlito said it was one of the first Don Carlos Lanceros made, so its from circa 1999 or so. Strange that you seemed to really like this cigar, but not the Don Carlos Senior Blend. I wonder if it is the age, because the blend is very similar.... and that Don Carlos Senior Blend cigar was relatively young (2006) in comparison. Oh well, if nothing else, that shows the fickle nature of taste.
> 
> Perhaps what you really enjoy more than anything else is aged tobacco -- and I wouldn't blame ya for that one bit. I think that's an important point for people who smoke aged Cuban cigars... try some aged non-Cuban cigars too... because it may be the age you enjoy as much as anything else. Well done, sir, nice pick!
> 
> Oh well, at least we found another non-Cuban cigar that you really liked... and I agree with ya, great cigar!
> 
> As I stated previously, while I'm not a big fan of the Don Carlos blend, there is something about these lanceros, I really enjoy them. It's similar for Montecristos, I seem to only really enjoy aged Monte Especials when it comes to that blend. Who knows?
> 
> *Results so far:*
> 
> #1 - Cuban Montecristo Tubos 1970s -- (6.5/10) guessed non-Cuban - _Incorrect_
> #2 - non-Cuban Cabaiguan WCD 120 -- (9.5/10) guessed Cuban, Davidoff Chateau Margaux - _Incorrect_
> #3 - Don Carlos Senior Blend Robusto - (6/10) guessed non-Cuban - Correct!
> #4 -  Cuban Taboada "Super Rodolfo" from LCDH in Tijauna (2006) -- (5/10) guessed non-Cuban - _Incorrect_*
> #5 -  non-Cuban Don Carlos Lancero from 1999 -- (8.5/10) guessed non-Cuban, Opus X or Añejo - Correct!
> 
> *Score:* Cigars 3, Fredster 2
> 
> _* Fredster questions the authenticity of this cigar_


----------



## yayson

moki said:


> Just in case anyone wants to question the authenticity of the Don Carlos Lancero, it was from a "karate team" sampler that I purchased to support the CFCF karate team in the DR. I can list the person who went down there to pick the cigars up, that they was handed to him by Carlito, and that Carlito told him it was one of the first Don Carlos Lanceros rolled.


So you ever just walk into a B&M and buy a cigar? Cbid maybe?


----------



## moki

yayson said:


> So you ever just walk into a B&M and buy a cigar? Cbid maybe?


Actually, not really. I usually buy cigars by the box, and the tobacco tax in NYS is such that it doesn't make any sense for me to buy locally (for product that can be bought locally).

As for CBid, the prices there for cigars I'm interested in are usually astronomical... and usually they seem to sell singles (but I don't follow it closely, so I could be wrong).


----------



## moki

Fredster said:


> I would say if the blends were similar (which they didn't seem to be at all), I didn't like the other one because of the age difference. The 99 definately was very balanced and had that soft character of mature tobacco. The Fuentes have such a distinct pre-light aroma. Almost like gingerbread. It's been years since I had smoked one but that smell and taste really burned into my memory.
> 
> Good smoke, thanks.


The best information that I have is that the blends are very much the same, except that the Don Carlos Senior Blend uses more aged tobacco, and it also has a piece of tobacco in it as filler that is used nowhere else.

Other than that, the Cameroon wrapper, binder, and blend are supposed to be the same. I actually suspect that Carlito has been using more aged tobacco for the Don Carlos Lanceros too, but I have no proof of it.

Given that I generally do not like the Don Carlos blend, but that I do enjoy the Lanceros as well as the Senior blends, I've actually wondered if they aren't even more similar in terms of the tobacco used. The other thing is that the blend certainly changes somewhat given the vitola... as I mentioned earlier, the Especial vitola (with some age on it) is one of the few Cuban Montecristos that I seem to enjoy, and I'm not sure why.

An interesting thing about aged cigars to me... Cuba obviously has a very storied history in terms of making cigars... collectors the world over have plenty of aged stock on hand, as Cuba was really one of the few places that premium cigars came from (though interestingly, the Philippines used to be huge as well).

The history of non-Cuban cigar makers as are sold to the US market _as a premium product_ is much more recent. Indeed, I'd argue that it's only in the past decade or two that very high quality non-Cuban cigars have been made for the US market. While brands like Davidoff (after leaving Cuba) have hit the ground running in terms of premium cigars sold in the US, other manufacturers have taken longer to produce really premium product.

As such, it's not too surprising that there isn't a huge tradition or stockpile of keeping and aging cigars. However with brands like the Opus X (which is very different after significant age), Ashton VSG, Padrón 1964/1926, (among others) and so on and so forth coming out in the last 15 years, I'd say that's changed.

I think it makes complete sense that people used to smoking aged Cuban cigars might very well have a preference for aged quality tobacco as much as anything else. As many of us have tasted, there is a certain character, harmony, and complexity that only seems to come out after cigars have aged for some time, and allowed the overpowering elements to subside.

Many cigar connoisseurs will not even bother smoking Cuban cigars until they have 5-10 years of age on 'em, and indeed will purchased aged stock or simply put new stock in the back of the humidor to revisit in a decade or so. Thus it makes sense that doing the same thing with premium cigar products from other countries will make a difference... it's not just the tobacco origin, it's also the _age_ of the tobacco.

It reminds me again of wine. France had a storied history in making fantastic wines, so cellars were (and still are) filled with noble French vintner's product. Upstarts like Napa/Sonoma didn't have the same history and tradition, and thus vintage years were rarely stockpiled for aging. However, that all has changed significantly in the past 30 years or so. Now, people are indeed putting back and aging some fantastic product from Napa/Sonoma (and other places), right alongside their French wines (though admittedly, for very high end collectors, French wines are often still considered "the shiz").

Sorry for the rant... just an interesting parallel, I think. Something to consider...


----------



## BigVito

glad things settled down, cigar #5 sounds like it would be a great smoke.


----------



## yayson

I read some things here that have touched on points of mystery for me in the last several months. Things I'm trying to figure out.



moki said:


> As such, it's not too surprising that there isn't a huge tradition or stockpile of keeping and aging cigars. However with brands like the Opus X (which is very different after significant age), Ashton VSG, Padrón 1964/1926, (among others) and so on and so forth coming out in the last 15 years, I'd say that's changed.


My first Padron Anniversaries I ever had were outstanding. Very powerful and full. I bought a lot of them and let them sit in my humidor. A year later I'm thinking they taste flat compared to the fresh versions. Now I'm wondering if they are sick (and will come around) or just flattened out.

_So I'm starting to get the idea_ I like fresh NCs. Cool! That's doable.



moki said:


> I think it makes complete sense that people used to smoking aged Cuban cigars *might very well have a preference for aged quality tobacco as much as anything else*. As many of us have tasted, there is a certain character, harmony, and complexity that only seems to come out after cigars have aged for some time, and allowed the overpowering elements to subside.
> 
> Many cigar connoisseurs will not even bother smoking Cuban cigars until they have 5-10 years of age on 'em, and indeed will purchased aged stock or simply put new stock in the back of the humidor to revisit in a decade or so. Thus it makes sense that doing the same thing with premium cigar products from other countries will make a difference... it's not just the tobacco origin, it's also the _age_ of the tobacco.


Another recent thought for me. The first Cubans I smoked was a 20 cigar sampler of carefully picked out stogies of varying vintages, from a couple of years old to close to 20. I enjoyed the sampler *immensely* and cursed myself for follishly peering over this slope.

So I buy 5 boxes of Cubans, from 96, 02, 05 and the other 2 current (07). I don't have near the same experience as that first magical sampler full of what I can only call now, "ON" smokes. Of the lot it's the older ones that I have a better appreciation for but I can honestly say of the 5 boxes ov er the last few months memorable of smoking, any one of the marcas I could pick and say it sucked at one time and was great at another. There is one marca, an 07, that has yet to thrill me and I'm done trying for a while.

_So I'm starting to get the idea_ that I enjoy aged Cubans. Now I kick myself again. I don't even want to look at that slope right? I work for a living dammit.

_So I'm starting to get the idea_ that I don't know anything about anything.


----------



## moki

yayson said:


> _So I'm starting to get the idea_ that I don't know anything about anything.


I think it's wise to approach life as a learning experience.

_ I know nothing except the fact of my ignorance._

_-- Socrates, from Diogenes Laertius, Lives of Eminent Philosophers
Greek philosopher in Athens (469 BC - 399 BC)_


----------



## kyee

moki said:


> As for the conditions that they were stored in, I know what conditions they were stored in, and this too has already been covered in the thread (two temperature and humidity controlled humidors, which I store everything in).


damn, that's a friggin' awesome looking koa humidor! wish I could afford one of those beauties! :tu


----------



## moki

kyee said:


> damn, that's a friggin' awesome looking koa humidor! wish I could afford one of those beauties! :tu


haha -- isn't it pretty, Kevin?  Thanks again, sir...


----------



## Tw3nty

moki said:


> haha -- isn't it pretty, Kevin?  Thanks again, sir...


Dude, that humidor rocks. You are the man. what else can you make us drool over?

I grew up real poor so my favorite thing to do is to window shop. show more goodies.


----------



## Da Klugs

Beautiful lil starter cab...


----------



## gocowboys

Da Klugs said:


> Beautiful lil starter cab...


I tried to stay out of this thread, but I had to jump in after that. Stop showing off.


----------



## Tw3nty

Da Klugs said:


> Beautiful lil starter cab...


That is sick....You are my hero..


----------



## MeNimbus

Da Klugs said:


> Beautiful lil starter cab...


Where is the zoom option? :r :tu


----------



## Mr.Maduro

This 5 Vegas Miami is making me halucinate!! I thought I just seen a beatiful display humi with attached lockers

I need to get some fresh air!! :r


----------



## Deucer

Mr.Maduro said:


> This 5 Vegas Miami is making me halucinate!! I thought I just seen a beatiful display humi with attached lockers
> 
> I need to get some fresh air!! :r


Yea, where it go? I came back to take another look and it's mysteriously vanished!


----------



## rumballs

Deucer said:


> Yea, where it go? I came back to take another look and it's mysteriously vanished!


Dave's pictures tend to self-destruct.
:r


----------



## dahigman

mmblz said:


> Dave's pictures tend to self-destruct.
> :r


Yup, but that pic of Kait is GREAT :r


----------



## Sean9689

PuffDaddy said:


> Yup, but that pic of Kait is GREAT :r


She has long hair in that pic!


----------



## weak_link

It's Friday night, Fredster should be burnin' one right now!! :chk


----------



## icehog3

Verifyng cigar #5 was in fact listed by Andrew as a non-Cuban Don Carlos Lancero from 1999.



Da Klugs said:


> Beautiful lil starter cab...





reggiebuckeye said:


> I tried to stay out of this thread, but I had to jump in after that. Stop showing off.


Great picture Dave!!

Reggie, you really need to throw in a "smilie" here and there, or people might think you weren't joking with Klugs.


----------



## Andy B

is that the highly collectible bowling ball bag shaped humidor on the floor in there Dave?


----------



## Da Klugs

Andy B said:


> is that the highly collectible bowling ball bag shaped humidor on the floor in there Dave?


 Old projection device.. how appropriate. :ss


----------



## icehog3

Da Klugs said:


> Old projection device.. how appropriate. :ss


You have Che Guevera's head in there, don't you? :w


----------



## gnukfu

icehog3 said:


> You have Che Guevera's head in there, don't you? :w


Can't wait to see that review!! :ss


----------



## gocowboys

icehog3 said:


> Verifyng cigar #5 was in fact listed by Andrew as a non-Cuban Don Carlos Lancero from 1999.
> 
> Great picture Dave!!
> 
> Reggie, you really need to throw in a "smilie" here and there, or people might think you weren't joking with Klugs.


You are right, Tom. I forgot I am not in Banterland. I just don't use the things that much. So Dave knows, I was only joking.


----------



## moki

Only posting this because additional information regarding the Taboada has come from the people who picked up the cigars:

Info on the Taboada from Atuck and Seadub.

Note that the information on the change in wrappers was corroborated -- but there is no way to prove authenticity 100% either way in this case.

I'm letting it rest here, just providing this for informational purposes. Let's get on with the rest of the cigars!


----------



## Smoked

I realize that letting this rest is important but this is an issue that needs to be resolved. I am a highly trained "Cigar Ninja". Please feel free to send me your "Taboada" cigars or any other cigars that may come in to question. I am more than happy to offer my super cigar ninja powers to resolve any issues. If there are any questions regarding my cigar ninja training I can send you a certified copy of my "Certified Cuban Taboada Black Belt". I can actually give you the name and exact age of the person that rolled the cigar.


----------



## moki

Smoked said:


> I realize that letting this rest is important but this is an issue that needs to be resolved. I am a highly trained "Cigar Ninja". Please feel free to send me your "Taboada" cigars or any other cigars that may come in to question. I am more than happy to offer my super cigar ninja powers to resolve any issues. If there are any questions regarding my cigar ninja training I can send you a certified copy of my "Certified Cuban Taboada Black Belt". I can actually give you the name and exact age of the person that rolled the cigar.


----------



## floydpink

Is there a #6, or have we paused for station identification?


----------



## Brandon

floydpink said:


> Is there a #6, or have we paused for station identification?


I guess Fred's life got in the way


----------



## wh0re

damn real life commitments!


----------



## gnukfu

During this commercial break I do want to thank you guys for the Cabaiguan Coronas Extra recommendation. Smoking my first one right now and loving it!:tu


----------



## gocowboys

gnukfu said:


> During this commercial break I do want to thank you guys for the Cabaiguan Coronas Extra recommendation. Smoking my first one right now and loving it!:tu


Not sharing?


----------



## moki

floydpink said:


> Is there a #6, or have we paused for station identification?


Fredster mentioned that there were some storms in FL that were hampering his style. He'll be back in the saddle soon enough!


----------



## moki

gnukfu said:


> During this commercial break I do want to thank you guys for the Cabaiguan Coronas Extra recommendation. Smoking my first one right now and loving it!:tu


Glad you are enjoying them, they are good cigars! Age 'em a bit and I think you may like them even more...


----------



## ToddziLLa

PuffDaddy said:


> Yup, but that pic of Kait is GREAT :r





Sean9689 said:


> She has long hair in that pic!


I know! I had to look at it for awhile to figure out it wasn't Hallie.


----------



## DBall

moki said:


> Glad you are enjoying them, they are good cigars! Age 'em a bit and I think you may like them even more...


I got in on a split.. have 9 coming and 5 are gonna go away for a long time. :tu


----------



## Fredster

#6. Bad weather friday and Saturday. 

Appearance- Kind of ugly. Fairly dark,veiny, and dry looking wrapper. A tad over 6 1/2" long and about a 42 RG.

Pre-light aroma- Not much smell, kind of an odd smell that either NC or vintage Cubans have.

Pre-light taste- Again not much. Light cedar?

Taste- Not much at all the first inch or so. Pretty flat. No spice. It stays fairly bland in the first third with a short finish and mostly a woody, leathery flavor. Not real complex. It does finally pick up towards the end and become maybe medium. Nothing struck me as Cuban with the taste. Could it be something Cuban vintage and possibly past it's prime? Don't think so, but can't rule it out yet. Decent draw and burn. Nothing special about the flavor and I think this would have to be smoked in daytime. Pretty light ash, but darker than the last cigar.

Aroma- Decent light aroma. Not offensive but not particularly aromatic. Nothing in the aroma registered as Cuban.

Rating- 6.0.

Verdict- This does not seem to be a regular, recent production Cuban cigar. I don't think it's a vintage Cuban either. I will say NC and am fairly certain I have smoked this one before.

I'll try to post a picture later. Having trouble with the camera.


----------



## Throb

floydpink said:


> Is there a #6, or have we paused for station identification?


Now back to our regularly scheduled program.....

Fredster, hope your home is ok...For those that don't know we Floridians had some powerful storms and heavy winds come through here this past weekend. Several homes around Tampa, Sarasota area damaged. A few tornadoes touched down as well causing significant damage...of course it missed all the scummy drug infested trailer parks in the area. how do they keep missing them

Back to the show


----------



## moki

Fredster said:


> #6. Bad weather friday and Saturday.
> 
> Appearance- Kind of ugly. Fairly dark,veiny, and dry looking wrapper. A tad over 6 1/2" long and about a 42 RG.
> 
> Pre-light aroma- Not much smell, kind of an odd smell that either NC or vintage Cubans have.
> 
> Pre-light taste- Again not much. Light cedar?
> 
> Taste- Not much at all the first inch or so. Pretty flat. No spice. It stays fairly bland in the first third with a short finish and mostly a woody, leathery flavor. Not real complex. It does finally pick up towards the end and become maybe medium. Nothing struck me as Cuban with the taste. Could it be something Cuban vintage and possibly past it's prime? Don't think so, but can't rule it out yet. Decent draw and burn. Nothing special about the flavor and I think this would have to be smoked in daytime. Pretty light ash, but darker than the last cigar.
> 
> Aroma- Decent light aroma. Not offensive but not particularly aromatic. Nothing in the aroma registered as Cuban.
> 
> Rating- 6.0.
> 
> Verdict- This does not seem to be a regular, recent production Cuban cigar. I don't think it's a vintage Cuban either. I will say NC and am fairly certain I have smoked this one before.
> 
> I'll try to post a picture later. Having trouble with the camera.


*Cigar #6 results*

Fredster says:

Cigar rating: 6/10
Marca: "NC"
Origin guess: "NC"
Cuban/non-Cuban: non-Cuban

Survey says:

Actual origin: non-Cuban, various
Cigar #6 is a: non-Cuban Graycliff Red Label Elegante 7 1/4" x 38 from 2007

*Commentary:*

*** Note *** I was confused about the size of this cigar, but it appears that it is because Graycliff actually lists the size of the cigar wrong on their web page. I took one out to measure it, and it is definitely not the 7 3/4" that they list on their web site... perhaps it is just stale info? Apologies for the confusion.

Well done, sir, you're on a roll! This cigar is actually blended by Avelino Lara, who used to be in charge of blending marcas like Davidoff and Cohiba in Cuba (according to Cigar Aficionado). Oddly, again the measurement is off in terms of the ring by 4/64th of an inch (but you're not really supposed to be measuring them anyway, just smoking 'em  ).

I generally find most Graycliff cigars as you do, Fredster... rather boring. However the Espresso line, specifically the Elegante, I think is really something special. I sent you one with the additional Cabaiguan WCD 120s that I sent ya... try it, see what you think. Certainly "different", but I think very nice!

Unlike some of the other cigars in the test, this is one I thought you'd get right. Why? Because I've actually never smoked this cigar before (the specific vitola), and thus have no idea whether the profile is remotely confusing. I put these cigars together very quickly for the blind taste test, and I'm kicking myself for not giving more thought to this one. 

All tied up now, Fredster, and we're halfway through!

*Results so far:*

#1 - Cuban Montecristo Tubos 1970s -- (6.5/10) guessed non-Cuban - _Incorrect_
#2 - non-Cuban Cabaiguan WCD 120 -- (9.5/10) guessed Cuban, Davidoff Chateau Margaux - _Incorrect_
#3 - non-Cuban Don Carlos Senior Blend Robusto - (6/10) guessed non-Cuban - Correct!
#4 -  Cuban Taboada "Super Rodolfo" from LCDH in Tijauna (2006) -- (5/10) guessed non-Cuban - _Incorrect_* 
#5 -  non-Cuban Don Carlos Lancero from 1999 -- (8.5/10) guessed non-Cuban, Opus X or Añejo - Correct!
#6 - non-Cuban Graycliff Red Label Elegante -- (6/10) guessed non-Cuban - Correct!

*Score:* Cigars 3, Fredster 3

_* Fredster questions the authenticity of this cigar_


----------



## worr lord

Good job, Fredster!


----------



## ForestPuma

On a roll Fredster. Great job bro!


----------



## moki

To elaborate on the confusion I had regarding the size of cigar #6, I sent in the size to icehog3 as an Elegante, and I remember it being a tad shorter than the Don Carlos Lancero that I put in there as cigar #5.

The Don Carlos Lancero is 7 1/2" x 41 ... so then I went to Graycliff's site today to look up the actual size for the Red Label Elegante, and it stated 7 3/4" x 38 -- which was impossible, because it was shorter than the Don Carlos Lancero.

So then I said to myself "WTF?" and shrugged, figuring maybe I'd made a mistake, and it was a Corona (6" x 38), but I didn't recall it being that short, and Fredster's measurement (after the cut) had it at 6 1/2"... WTF indeed?

So then I took out an Elegante and measured it... Graycliff has the wrong info on their site regarding the length... it is actually 7 1/4". I can only conclude that perhaps it is stale or simply incorrect info on their web site.

Fredster can verify this by measuring the Espresso Elegante that I sent him. Very weird.


----------



## Fredster

moki said:


> To elaborate on the confusion I had regarding the size of cigar #6, I sent in the size to icehog3 as an Elegante, and I remember it being a tad shorter than the Don Carlos Lancero that I put in there as cigar #5.
> 
> The Don Carlos Lancero is 7 1/2" x 41 ... so then I went to Graycliff's site today to look up the actual size for the Red Label Elegante, and it stated 7 3/4" x 38 -- which was impossible, because it was shorter than the Don Carlos Lancero.
> 
> So then I said to myself "WTF?" and shrugged, figuring maybe I'd made a mistake, and it was a Corona (6" x 38), but I didn't recall it being that short, and Fredster's measurement (after the cut) had it at 6 1/2"... WTF indeed?
> 
> So then I took out an Elegante and measured it... Graycliff has the wrong info on their site regarding the length... it is actually 7 1/4". I can only conclude that perhaps it is stale or simply incorrect info on their web site.
> 
> Fredster can verify this by measuring the Espresso Elegante that I sent him. Very weird.


Wow! Strange coincidence, I've smoked maybe 2 Graycliff cigars In my life many years ago. Did not care for them. I know guessing NC was not part of the deal, but for some reason I came so close to guessing Graycliff on this cigar, but with you sending me one recently I just said can't be. Guess you should trust your gut, or your taste buds. Looks to be about 7 1/8 X 40? It's hard to get an exact measurement.


----------



## Fredster

Throb said:


> Now back to our regularly scheduled program.....
> 
> Fredster, hope your home is ok...For those that don't know we Floridians had some powerful storms and heavy winds come through here this past weekend. Several homes around Tampa, Sarasota area damaged. A few tornadoes touched down as well causing significant damage...of course it missed all the scummy drug infested trailer parks in the area. how do they keep missing them
> 
> Back to the show


Lots of branches and debris in the yard, but no damage. Heck of a storm though.


----------



## moki

Fredster said:


> Wow! Strange coincidence, I've smoked maybe 2 Graycliff cigars In my life many years ago. Did not care for them. I know guessing NC was not part of the deal, but for some reason I came so close to guessing Graycliff on this cigar, but with you sending me one recently I just said can't be. Guess you should trust your gut, or your taste buds. Looks to be about 7 1/8 X 40? It's hard to get an exact measurement.


Yeah which is weird... because their site claims it is 7 3/4". WTF, over? 1/2" is a lot to be wrong by...

Anyway, try that Espresso Elegante, I think you will find it interesting. I would have put it into the blind taste test, but the wrapper is a dead give-away that it's not Cuban.


----------



## moki

hehe -- sorry to interrupt this blind taste test, but have a look at the reviews of these cigars. All of these cigars are from the same cab... but look at the range of "very strong/spicy" to "very mild" in the comments of their reviews... all over the map!

This is why I love blind taste tests!! 

Note that the point of that blind taste test is not Cuban/non-Cuban, just a fun ride on the unpredictability of taste


----------



## Fredster

Cigar # 7.

Appearance- Nice looking chocolate brown wrapper. Could pass for Cuban. Nice roll job. 5 1/2 X 50 maybe 52.

Pre-light aroma- Similar to #5 sweet baked goods, but a bit different. Fuente or Dominican?

Pre-light taste. Same as above.

Taste- Peppery off the bat. Settles down to med. maybe med. full in strength and flavor. Not real complex, but not one-noted either. Woodsy, earthy, tobacco flavor. Does not taste like reg. production Cuban, or vintage Cuban. Something Cuban custom? It's a possibilty, but don't think so. Something in the taste says NC. Don't like the aftertaste. This one might benefit from some aging? Good draw and decent burn. Put this one out at halway. Got stuff to do and it just didn't do much for me.

Aroma- Not offensive, but not aromatic either. Smells NC.

Rating- 6.0.

Verdict- NC. Pre-light smell and taste similar to a Fuente, but not sure.


----------



## icehog3

Sorry, off the board for a day....confirming here that Andrew's list shows Cigar #6 to be a Graycliff Red Label Elegante.


----------



## moki

Fredster said:


> Cigar # 7.
> 
> Appearance- Nice looking chocolate brown wrapper. Could pass for Cuban. Nice roll job. 5 1/2 X 50 maybe 52.
> 
> Pre-light aroma- Similar to #5 sweet baked goods, but a bit different. Fuente or Dominican?
> 
> Pre-light taste. Same as above.
> 
> Taste- Peppery off the bat. Settles down to med. maybe med. full in strength and flavor. Not real complex, but not one-noted either. Woodsy, earthy, tobacco flavor. Does not taste like reg. production Cuban, or vintage Cuban. Something Cuban custom? It's a possibilty, but don't think so. Something in the taste says NC. Don't like the aftertaste. This one might benefit from some aging? Good draw and decent burn. Put this one out at halway. Got stuff to do and it just didn't do much for me.
> 
> Aroma- Not offensive, but not aromatic either. Smells NC.
> 
> Rating- 6.0.
> 
> Verdict- NC. Pre-light smell and taste similar to a Fuente, but not sure.


*Cigar #7 results*

Fredster says:

Cigar rating: 6/10
Marca: "NC", Fuente
Origin guess: "NC", Fuente
Cuban/non-Cuban: non-Cuban

Survey says:

Actual origin: non-Cuban, various
Cigar #7 is a: non-Cuban Don Carlos 30th Anniversary Double Robusto 5 ¾" x 52 from 2006

*Commentary:*

Very well done, Fredster... you got not only the origin (non-Cuban), but also the manufacturer (Fuente)! Although you stated it could pass for Cuban, and seemed to waver a bit on the "Cuban custom", you pulled it out in the end and guessed correctly!

Sorry to hear you weren't impressed by this cigar. Mark my words, the raw materials are there, in a few years, these cigars are going to be absolute monsters in terms of taste.

Which leads me to thinking that, again, I should have put some more very aged non-Cuban cigars into the mix. I'm strongly suspecting that you prefer aged tobacco, and I think it would have made things more interesting. Regardless, very well done sir... and do revisit these cigars in a few years, I think you will be very impressed once they have taken some time to age, marry, and downplay some of the more overt tastes in these cigars.

It's unfortunate that you didn't finish the cigar... the finish on these is generally quite nice, and shows off some of the potential that they have for long-term aging!

BTW, as per our original guidelines: _Fredster has agreed to not attempt to determine the specifics of any of the cigars by any means other than simply smoking them and tasting them (ie, no examining them, looking them up in references, etc.)._.. you're really not supposed to be measuring the cigars. 

Team Fredster has something to cheer about! Not only is he on a roll, but he's also ahead of a 50/50 coin flip for the first time in this blind taste test! Well done!

*Results so far:*

#1 - Cuban Montecristo Tubos 1970s -- (6.5/10) guessed non-Cuban - _Incorrect_
#2 - non-Cuban Cabaiguan WCD 120 -- (9.5/10) guessed Cuban, Davidoff Chateau Margaux - _Incorrect_
#3 - non-Cuban Don Carlos Senior Blend Robusto - (6/10) guessed non-Cuban - Correct!
#4 -  Cuban Taboada "Super Rodolfo" from LCDH in Tijauna (2006) -- (5/10) guessed non-Cuban - _Incorrect_* 
#5 -  non-Cuban Don Carlos Lancero from 1999 -- (8.5/10) guessed non-Cuban, Opus X or Añejo - Correct!
#6 - non-Cuban Graycliff Red Label Elegante -- (6/10) guessed non-Cuban - Correct!
#7 - non-Cuban Don Carlos 30th Anniversary Double Robusto -- (6/10) guessed non-Cuban, Fuente - Correct!

*Score:* Cigars 3, Fredster 4

_* Fredster questions the authenticity of this cigar_[/QUOTE]


----------



## Puffin Fresh

From his description I almost posted a guess that Number 7 was a Don Carlos Edicion de Anniversario. I figured you'd put one in there but I didn't want to post ahead of time in case #7 wasn't that. I figured it might give away a later cigar if this one wasn't it.

Good job Fredster.


----------



## Fredster

Early on in this cigar it was quite peppery and thought maybe Cuban custom. As I smoked it devoloped more taste and said it did not taste Cuban. So no, I don't think it could pass for Cuban. Aroma definately not Cuban.

On the aged comments. Yes, I have said over and over I prefer mature cigars and 90% of what I smoke falls into the 5-10 year old category. Vintage over 10 years can be really great or not, depending on storage,etc. Young tobacco sucks if it's Cuban or NC IMO. I'm sure this cigar will improve. Problem is unlike Cubans you can't go buy NC's that have 5-10 years already. The price is also part of why I don't go the NC route anymore. Some of these NC's aged are pretty good aged, but have not had any that I liked as much as my favorite Cubans. When I made the statement about being able to tell marcas I smoke frequently this is where I was coming from. This is most relevant when you are talking about a recnt mono-blend theory. Seems to me the best way to prove that theory would have been to send a bunch of the same size, several year old, Cuban's, and see if I guessed any where the same cigar. I think we both know the answer to that one.

I mentioned I was going to measure after these cigars were not just jiving with my eyeballs. The Don Carlos Fuente that was suppose to be a 50 that turned out to be 48, one example. I still say it was more like 46, but doesn't really matter and I'm not implying anything other than MFRS sometimes list sizes wrong. Seems like size and appearance should be part of a review. You are digging deep to cross me up with customs,vintage, and special editions that to me have more to do with proving something other than the mono-blend theory, so don't really see any advantage to the measurements. I also never said simply smoking and tasting was the only determining factor. Aroma (prelight and while smoking) is just as important for me to determine origin or Marca.



moki said:


> *Cigar #7 results*
> 
> Fredster says:
> 
> Cigar rating: 6/10
> Marca: "NC", Fuente
> Origin guess: "NC", Fuente
> Cuban/non-Cuban: non-Cuban
> 
> Survey says:
> 
> Actual origin: non-Cuban, various
> Cigar #7 is a: non-Cuban Don Carlos 30th Anniversary Double Robusto 5 ¾" x 52 from 2006
> 
> *Commentary:*
> 
> Very well done, Fredster... you got not only the origin (non-Cuban), but also the manufacturer (Fuente)! Although you stated it could pass for Cuban, and seemed to waver a bit on the "Cuban custom", you pulled it out in the end and guessed correctly!
> 
> Sorry to hear you weren't impressed by this cigar. Mark my words, the raw materials are there, in a few years, these cigars are going to be absolute monsters in terms of taste.
> 
> Which leads me to thinking that, again, I should have put some more very aged non-Cuban cigars into the mix. I'm strongly suspecting that you prefer aged tobacco, and I think it would have made things more interesting. Regardless, very well done sir... and do revisit these cigars in a few years, I think you will be very impressed once they have taken some time to age, marry, and downplay some of the more overt tastes in these cigars.
> 
> It's unfortunate that you didn't finish the cigar... the finish on these is generally quite nice, and shows off some of the potential that they have for long-term aging!
> 
> BTW, as per our original guidelines: _Fredster has agreed to not attempt to determine the specifics of any of the cigars by any means other than simply smoking them and tasting them (ie, no examining them, looking them up in references, etc.)._.. you're really not supposed to be measuring the cigars.
> 
> Team Fredster has something to cheer about! Not only is he on a roll, but he's also ahead of a 50/50 coin flip for the first time in this blind taste test! Well done!
> 
> *Results so far:*
> 
> #1 - Cuban Montecristo Tubos 1970s -- (6.5/10) guessed non-Cuban - _Incorrect_
> #2 - non-Cuban Cabaiguan WCD 120 -- (9.5/10) guessed Cuban, Davidoff Chateau Margaux - _Incorrect_
> #3 - non-Cuban Don Carlos Senior Blend Robusto - (6/10) guessed non-Cuban - Correct!
> #4 -  Cuban Taboada "Super Rodolfo" from LCDH in Tijauna (2006) -- (5/10) guessed non-Cuban - _Incorrect_*
> #5 -  non-Cuban Don Carlos Lancero from 1999 -- (8.5/10) guessed non-Cuban, Opus X or Añejo - Correct!
> #6 - non-Cuban Graycliff Red Label Elegante -- (6/10) guessed non-Cuban - Correct!
> #7 - non-Cuban Don Carlos 30th Anniversary Double Robusto -- (6/10) guessed non-Cuban, Fuente - Correct!
> 
> *Score:* Cigars 3, Fredster 4
> 
> _* Fredster questions the authenticity of this cigar_


[/QUOTE]


----------



## moki

Fredster said:


> Problem is unlike Cubans you can't go buy NC's that have 5-10 years already. The price is also part of why I don't go the NC route anymore. Some of these NC's aged are pretty good aged, but have not had any that I liked as much as my favorite Cubans.


Except for the Cabaiguan!!! 

I agree with you that it is not as easy to go out and buy boxes of aged non-Cuban cigars... but that situation has been changing, and I think will continue to change.


----------



## Lanthor

Fredster said:


> I mentioned I was going to measure after these cigars were not just jiving with my eyeballs. The Don Carlos Fuente that was suppose to be a 50 that turned out to be 48, one example. I still say it was more like 46


Do cigars shrink up a little as they age? Thought I read this somewhere.


----------



## moki

Fredster said:


> This is most relevant when you are talking about a recnt mono-blend theory. Seems to me the best way to prove that theory would have been to send a bunch of the same size, several year old, Cuban's, and see if I guessed any where the same cigar. I think we both know the answer to that one.


Well, keep in mind that regarding the "mono-blend" issue, it's a recent thing (within the last 5 years or so), and it's also not a constant or widespread thing. I think it's just a few of the more outlaying factories that it happens in, and even then it may be when they can't get the tobacco they need, and just have to reach quota. I do not -- and have never -- thought that was particularly widespread (unlike the article that I quoted).

I agree with you that a very smart thing to do would be to put a bunch of the same cigars together and see if the reviews are different. I suspect they probably would be, and I came very close to putting the same cigar in twice to the blind taste test, just to see what would happen. 

Check this blind taste testing out -- it involves me, and a very experienced cigar smoker, Hotboy, who smokes mostly Cubans but also some other non-Cubans he likes (Davidoffs, Cabaiguans, etc.), and has done so for over a decade and a half. Scroll all the way to the bottom of that post.

Cigars #9 and #10 are exactly the same cigar. Both of us nailed the first cigar, but guessed that #10 was a different blend of Cuban. It's funny, because I made initial assumptions about the cigar based on the prelight taste and wrapper, and despite me stating that it didn't taste like a Cohiba, that's what I said it was. Oh well, at least Dane got the marca wrong too.


----------



## Fredster

Lanthor said:


> Do cigars shrink up a little as they age? Thought I read this somewhere.


Not sure about that?


----------



## Fredster

moki said:


> Except for the Cabaiguan!!!
> 
> I agree with you that it is not as easy to go out and buy boxes of aged non-Cuban cigars... but that situation has been changing, and I think will continue to change.


Do you know for certain the Cabaiguan didn't use aged tobacco in the blend?

Also, I don't know how many 07 Cuban cigars you have tried, but many are really good. They taste like they already have 2-3 years box age.

I see you recieved my cigars Wed., you going try one soon? I shouldn't be the only one having fun.


----------



## Fredster

cigar #8. Before I smoked the first cigar in this review, I put 3 cigars in a pile that could be Cuban based on pre-light aroma only. They were cigars #1, #2, and #8. Little over 5 1/8" and a 38 to 40 RG. 

Appearance- Ugly, light wrapper. Very veiny. Has a tear where the band came off, but doesn't seem to be affecting the draw. Little over 5 1/8" X 38 or 40 RG.

Pre-light aroma- Not much smell to go on. Maybe light cedar.

Pre-light taste- Same as above.

Taste- Spicy and very woody. Little bit creamy too. Not real complex. Some Cuban-like tastes, but something is different. It also does not taste like any Cuban Marca I think of. Some similarites (woodiness) to Cuban Le Hoyo's. Good draw and burn. Last third more creamy than spicy. I also got a strange almost cardboard like taste the last third I didn't care for. Final was a bit hot. Med flavor and strength. Did not like the aftertaste it left when done smoking it.

Aroma- Not bad, but nothing special. Does not seem familiar. Have to say smells more NC.

Rating- 6.0.

Verdict- I'm going with NC. I was given a Pepin Blue label long time ago at a local cigar lounge where I keep a locker. It was a robusto size I think. This cigar tastes and smells similar to that.


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## moki

Fredster said:


> cigar #8. Before I smoked the first cigar in this review, I put 3 cigars in a pile that could be Cuban based on pre-light aroma only. They were cigars #1, #2, and #8. Little over 5 1/8" and a 38 to 40 RG.
> 
> Appearance- Ugly, light wrapper. Very veiny. Has a tear where the band came off, but doesn't seem to be affecting the draw. Little over 5 1/8" X 38 or 40 RG.
> 
> Pre-light aroma- Not much smell to go on. Maybe light cedar.
> 
> Pre-light taste- Same as above.
> 
> Taste- Spicy and very woody. Little bit creamy too. Not real complex. Some Cuban-like tastes, but something is different. It also does not taste like any Cuban Marca I think of. Some similarites (woodiness) to Cuban Le Hoyo's. Good draw and burn. Last third more creamy than spicy. I also got a strange almost cardboard like taste the last third I didn't care for. Final was a bit hot. Med flavor and strength. Did not like the aftertaste it left when done smoking it.
> 
> Aroma- Not bad, but nothing special. Does not seem familiar. Have to say smells more NC.
> 
> Rating- 6.0.
> 
> Verdict- I'm going with NC. I was given a Pepin Blue label long time ago at a local cigar lounge where I keep a locker. It was a robusto size I think. This cigar tastes and smells similar to that.


*Cigar #8 results*

Fredster says:

Cigar rating: 6/10
Marca: "NC", Pepin
Origin guess: "NC"
Cuban/non-Cuban: non-Cuban

Survey says:

Actual origin: Cuban
Cigar #8 is a: Cuban Cohiba Reserva Media Corona (5.5" x 38) from 2003

*Commentary:*

Looked like you were getting close with the "some Cuban-like tastes", and sorta on the track to the grassy/woody profile of Cohibas... but alas, you guessed incorrectly. This is actually a Cuban Cohiba Seleccion Reserva. Sorry about the tear on the wrapper, I did indeed do that when I took the band off... very thin wrapper.

This is a tough one... because frankly, I think these cigars are just not good compared to regular production Cohibas (and I have a great fondness for Cohibas), which might explain why they aren't exactly high on the list of collectors.

In preparation for the shit storm of legitimacy questions, I can PM you the box code and source of this box if you wish, Fredster. They are the real deal, though... they just are unfortunately rather flat and uninteresting.

Probably one of the more disappointing "special" Habanos SA releases in quite some time, IMHO.

*Results so far:*

#1 - Cuban Montecristo Tubos 1970s -- (6.5/10) guessed non-Cuban - _Incorrect_
#2 - non-Cuban Cabaiguan WCD 120 -- (9.5/10) guessed Cuban, Davidoff Chateau Margaux - _Incorrect_
#3 - non-Cuban Don Carlos Senior Blend Robusto - (6/10) guessed non-Cuban - Correct!
#4 -  Cuban Taboada "Super Rodolfo" from LCDH in Tijauna (2006) -- (5/10) guessed non-Cuban - _Incorrect_* 
#5 -  non-Cuban Don Carlos Lancero from 1999 -- (8.5/10) guessed non-Cuban, Opus X or Añejo - Correct!
#6 - non-Cuban Graycliff Red Label Elegante -- (6/10) guessed non-Cuban - Correct!
#7 - non-Cuban Don Carlos 30th Anniversary Double Robusto -- (6/10) guessed non-Cuban, Fuente - Correct!
#8 - Cuban Cohiba Reserva Media Corona -- (6/10) guessed non-Cuban, Pepin - _Incorrect_

*Score:* Cigars 4, Fredster 4

_* Fredster questions the authenticity of this cigar_


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## moki

Fredster said:


> Do you know for certain the Cabaiguan didn't use aged tobacco in the blend?
> 
> Also, I don't know how many 07 Cuban cigars you have tried, but many are really good. They taste like they already have 2-3 years box age.
> 
> I see you recieved my cigars Wed., you going try one soon? I shouldn't be the only one having fun.


Sorry, we had a big storm this weekend too... I wasn't able to get away to enjoy 'em.


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## Brandon

moki said:


> This is a tough one... because frankly, I think these cigars are just not good compared to regular production Cohibas (and I have a great fondness for Cohibas), which might explain why they aren't exactly high on the list of collectors.


The original release Media Coronas were fantastic cigars. The subsequent releases were duds.


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## moki

Brandon said:


> The original release Media Coronas were fantastic cigars. The subsequent releases were duds.


These were indeed from the "subsequent release" batch, sadly. It's unfortunate, I love that vitola too...


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## Fredster

moki said:


> *Cigar #8 results*
> 
> Fredster says:
> 
> Cigar rating: 6/10
> Marca: "NC", Pepin
> Origin guess: "NC"
> Cuban/non-Cuban: non-Cuban
> 
> Survey says:
> 
> Actual origin: Cuban
> Cigar #8 is a: Cuban Cohiba Reserva Media Corona (5.5" x 38) from 2003
> 
> *Commentary:*
> 
> Looked like you were getting close with the "some Cuban-like tastes", and sorta on the track to the grassy/woody profile of Cohibas... but alas, you guessed incorrectly. This is actually a Cuban Cohiba Seleccion Reserva. Sorry about the tear on the wrapper, I did indeed do that when I took the band off... very thin wrapper.
> 
> This is a tough one... because frankly, I think these cigars are just not good compared to regular production Cohibas (and I have a great fondness for Cohibas), which might explain why they aren't exactly high on the list of collectors.
> 
> In preparation for the shit storm of legitimacy questions, I can PM you the box code and source of this box if you wish, Fredster. They are the real deal, though... they just are unfortunately rather flat and uninteresting.
> 
> Probably one of the more disappointing "special" Habanos SA releases in quite some time, IMHO.
> 
> *Results so far:*
> 
> #1 - Cuban Montecristo Tubos 1970s -- (6.5/10) guessed non-Cuban - _Incorrect_
> #2 - non-Cuban Cabaiguan WCD 120 -- (9.5/10) guessed Cuban, Davidoff Chateau Margaux - _Incorrect_
> #3 - non-Cuban Don Carlos Senior Blend Robusto - (6/10) guessed non-Cuban - Correct!
> #4 -  Cuban Taboada "Super Rodolfo" from LCDH in Tijauna (2006) -- (5/10) guessed non-Cuban - _Incorrect_*
> #5 -  non-Cuban Don Carlos Lancero from 1999 -- (8.5/10) guessed non-Cuban, Opus X or Añejo - Correct!
> #6 - non-Cuban Graycliff Red Label Elegante -- (6/10) guessed non-Cuban - Correct!
> #7 - non-Cuban Don Carlos 30th Anniversary Double Robusto -- (6/10) guessed non-Cuban, Fuente - Correct!
> #8 - Cuban Cohiba Reserva Media Corona -- (6/10) guessed non-Cuban, Pepin - _Incorrect_
> 
> *Score:* Cigars 4, Fredster 4
> 
> _* Fredster questions the authenticity of this cigar_


Hmmm. Dud indeed. Have to disagree with you on the Reservas sucking. Excellent cigars IMO. I've smoked 4 boxes so far. I have a box of 03's Ive been smoking on and while not as good as the 02's the Media coronas and Coronas Especials were on and very strong. Here is a picture of some from the box I'm smoking. Mine have all had gorgeous wrappers (see picture). There is also a shot of yours. Forgot to post it.


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## moki

Fredster said:


> Hmmm. Dud indeed. Have to disagree with you on the Reservas sucking. Excellent cigars IMO. I've smoked 4 boxes so far. I have a box of 03's Ive been smoking on and while not as good as the 02's the Media coronas and Coronas Especials were on and very strong. Here is a picture of some from the box I'm smoking. Mine have all had gorgeous wrappers (see picture). There is also a shot of yours. Forgot to post it.


The 03's I've had, I've been rather disappointed by. The lighting on the two pictures of yours is slightly different (you can tell by the lightness of the granite), but I don't disagree that the wrapper on the one I sent you is not exactly what one would hope for in a special release of their flagship marca.

Honestly, the reports I've heard from many people regarding the 03 Reservas makes me think the Cubans got a little greedy, and rushed out another batch of 'em. I think your assessment was on in terms of thinking the cigar might be Cuban, but in this case, Habanos SA was the one who is the let-down.


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## Fredster

moki said:


> The 03's I've had, I've been rather disappointed by. The lighting on the two pictures of yours is slightly different (you can tell by the lightness of the granite), but I don't disagree that the wrapper on the one I sent you is not exactly what one would hope for in a special release of their flagship marca.
> 
> Honestly, the reports I've heard from many people regarding the 03 Reservas makes me think the Cubans got a little greedy, and rushed out another batch of 'em. I think your assessment was on in terms of thinking the cigar might be Cuban, but in this case, Habanos SA was the one who is the let-down.


The 03's were not as good as the intial 02 release, but it was mostly the larger sizes that seemed a bit flat. No problems with mine on the smaller sizes. If you want to try one of mine LMK.


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## Fredster

#9. 

Appearance- Dark, oily maduro. Looks to be dripping with oil. 5 1/8 X 43 maybe 44.

Prelight aroma. Like manure. Cuban-like, but without the sweet chocolate smell. 

Pre-light taste- Sweet. earthy.

Taste- Big blast of spice early on. Spice is pretty much gone after an inch or so and becomes very earthy. Full bodied. Not real complex. Taste is similar to a Cuban Partagas. Not anything I can say I've had, but I've smoked only a few E.L.s the last year or so and all were from 2000 or 2001. This tastes a bit young. If it's NC it tastes more Cuban than the others except maybe #2. A little chocolatey. Everything seems to say Cuban, but something in the background seems different. Good draw and a little crooked burn.

Aroma- Strong and not bad. Smells more Cuban than NC.

Rating- 6.0 This one should age well, but I'm just more into medium complex cigars these days

Verdict- On the fence with this one. I will say NC, but does not taste like a cigar I've smoked before. Tastes Cuban, but can't place it. If this is NC it could pass for Cuban to most I think.


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## moki

Fredster said:


> #9.
> 
> Appearance- Dark, oily maduro. Looks to be dripping with oil. 5 1/8 X 43 maybe 44.
> 
> Prelight aroma. Like manure. Cuban-like, but without the sweet chocolate smell.
> 
> Pre-light taste- Sweet. earthy.
> 
> Taste- Big blast of spice early on. Spice is pretty much gone after an inch or so and becomes very earthy. Full bodied. Not real complex. Taste is similar to a Cuban Partagas. Not anything I can say I've had, but I've smoked only a few E.L.s the last year or so and all were from 2000 or 2001. This tastes a bit young. If it's NC it tastes more Cuban than the others except maybe #2. A little chocolatey. Everything seems to say Cuban, but something in the background seems different. Good draw and a little crooked burn.
> 
> Aroma- Strong and not bad. Smells more Cuban than NC.
> 
> Rating- 6.0 This one should age well, but I'm just more into medium complex cigars these days
> 
> Verdict- On the fence with this one. I will say NC, but does not taste like a cigar I've smoked before. Tastes Cuban, but can't place it. If this is NC it could pass for Cuban to most I think.


I'm confused -- which way are you guessing on this one?


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## SteveDMatt

Fredster said:


> #9.
> 
> Verdict- On the fence with this one. I will say NC,


I think he said NC.


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## j6ppc

I was gifted a Medias Coronas last summer and sincerely enjoyed it. I believe it was from the first tranche FWIW.


----------



## BigVito

SteveDMatt said:


> I think he said NC.


I think you thought what he thunk is right


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## DennisP

BigVito said:


> I think you thought what he thunk is right


Same. He says NC that tastes Cuban.


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## moki

DennisP said:


> Same. He says NC that tastes Cuban.


I'll wait for his clarification to be sure, and also more clear marca guess.


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## icehog3

Confirming #7 and #8 from the list for Andrew and Fred:

#7 - non-Cuban Don Carlos 30th Anniversary Double Robusto (2006)
#8 - Cuban Cohiba Reserva Media Corona (2003)


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## RJT

Fredster said:


> #9.
> Prelight aroma. Like manure. Cuban-like, but without the sweet chocolate smell.


Thats the cocoa and horsesh!t I was talking about. :tu 

Kudos to you and Moki for doing this little experiment. :ss


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## Fredster

DennisP said:


> Same. He says NC that tastes Cuban.


Correct. Nobody else seems confused.


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## Fredster

moki said:


> I'll wait for his clarification to be sure, and also more clear marca guess.


NC was the guess. If it's a NC I said it's nothing I'm familiar with. I said in the tasting notes it tasted similar to a Cuban Partagas. Sorry if I confused you, it seems everyone else undertood what I was saying.


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## DBall

RJT said:


> Thats the cocoa and horsesh!t I was talking about.


I entirely forgot about the cocoa and horsesh!t... :r:r:r!


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## moki

Fredster said:


> NC was the guess. If it's a NC I said it's nothing I'm familiar with. I said in the tasting notes it tasted similar to a Cuban Partagas. Sorry if I confused you, it seems everyone else undertood what I was saying.


If by "Everyone" you mean the 4 people who posted out of tens of thousands of members, then okay. 

I thought that's what you meant too, but the write up was rather waffling and ambivalent, so I wanted to make sure I was reading it correctly before I posted... that's all.

The results are forthcoming!


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## moki

Fredster said:


> #9.
> 
> Appearance- Dark, oily maduro. Looks to be dripping with oil. 5 1/8 X 43 maybe 44.
> 
> Prelight aroma. Like manure. Cuban-like, but without the sweet chocolate smell.
> 
> Pre-light taste- Sweet. earthy.
> 
> Taste- Big blast of spice early on. Spice is pretty much gone after an inch or so and becomes very earthy. Full bodied. Not real complex. Taste is similar to a Cuban Partagas. Not anything I can say I've had, but I've smoked only a few E.L.s the last year or so and all were from 2000 or 2001. This tastes a bit young. If it's NC it tastes more Cuban than the others except maybe #2. A little chocolatey. Everything seems to say Cuban, but something in the background seems different. Good draw and a little crooked burn.
> 
> Aroma- Strong and not bad. Smells more Cuban than NC.
> 
> Rating- 6.0 This one should age well, but I'm just more into medium complex cigars these days
> 
> Verdict- On the fence with this one. I will say NC, but does not taste like a cigar I've smoked before. Tastes Cuban, but can't place it. If this is NC it could pass for Cuban to most I think.


*Cigar #9 results*

Fredster says:

Cigar rating: 6/10
Marca: "similar to a Cuban Partagas"
Origin guess: "tastes Cuban", but is a NC that could pass for Cuban
Cuban/non-Cuban: non-Cuban

Survey says:

Actual origin: non-Cuban
Cigar #9 is a: non-Cuban Tatuaje Maravilla prototype (5 5/8" x 46) from 2006

*Commentary:*

Nicely done, despite the wavering, and fence-sitting, you ultimately made the right choice in the end. I think it's apparent from the review, though, that this was not an easy decision, and this cigar, among others in the review (notably the Cuban Montecristo and the non-Cuban Cabaiguan), make it clear that the line between Cuban and non-Cuban is not so clear after all. Well done in riding the fine line and making the right decision!

What I find most interesting about this cigar is that you were extremely ambivalent regarding whether it was Cuban or not... the aroma was "Cuban-like", "Taste is similar to a Cuban Partagas", "If it's NC it tastes more Cuban", "Tastes Cuban, but can't place it", and then the conclusion:

_On the fence with this one. I will say NC, but does not taste like a cigar I've smoked before. Tastes Cuban, but can't place it. If this is NC it could pass for Cuban to most I think._

Which I think means that this cigar had you befuddled, and it could have gone either way. Indeed, it's purely my speculation, but I bet with 5 more years of age on it, you'd love this cigar, and it'd get the "Cuban" designation easily. 

This is another cigar that I had to cut the "shag foot" off of carefully... this is actually a pre-release prototype of the Tatuaje Maravilla, a Tatuaje vitola/blend that was created for Leaf and Ale. Other Tatuajes that are very similar to it in terms of taste profile would be the Havana Cazadores.

When I'm in the mood for a spicier, bolder cigar, these are a great go-to cigar.

You're above the 50/50 coin flip mark again! Well done.

*Results so far:*

#1 - Cuban Montecristo Tubos 1970s -- (6.5/10) guessed non-Cuban - _Incorrect_
#2 - non-Cuban Cabaiguan WCD 120 -- (9.5/10) guessed Cuban, Davidoff Chateau Margaux - _Incorrect_
#3 - non-Cuban Don Carlos Senior Blend Robusto - (6/10) guessed non-Cuban - Correct!
#4 -  Cuban Taboada "Super Rodolfo" from LCDH in Tijauna (2006) -- (5/10) guessed non-Cuban - _Incorrect_* 
#5 -  non-Cuban Don Carlos Lancero from 1999 -- (8.5/10) guessed non-Cuban, Opus X or Añejo - Correct!
#6 - non-Cuban Graycliff Red Label Elegante -- (6/10) guessed non-Cuban - Correct!
#7 - non-Cuban Don Carlos 30th Anniversary Double Robusto -- (6/10) guessed non-Cuban, Fuente - Correct!
#8 - Cuban Cohiba Reserva Media Corona -- (6/10) guessed non-Cuban, Pepin - _Incorrect_
#9 - non-Cuban Tatuaje Maravilla -- (6/10) guessed non-Cuban, "similar to a Cuban Partagas" -- Correct!

*Score:* Cigars 4, Fredster 5

_* Fredster questions the authenticity of this cigar_


----------



## moki

Since this is another non-regular production cigar (in that it's a prototype), if anyone has questions about the authenticity of this cigar... it was given to me by a manager at Leaf and Ale who was responsible for collaborating with Pete Johnson in creating this cigar. I have no pictures or other documentation regarding this, but I can put you in touch with Kevin if you feel the need.


----------



## DBall

Is this the highest anyone has scored thus far on one of your tests, Moki? 

EDIT: Actually, what was the highest score you have gotten on one of these tests if this isn't so far?


----------



## wh0re

I know moki himself has gotten a score of 9/10 before.


----------



## DBall

wh0re said:


> I know moki himself has gotten a score of 9/10 before.


Yeah... I read that too (a great read)... I was just wondering about tests he administered.


----------



## moki

DBall said:


> Is this the highest anyone has scored thus far on one of your tests, Moki?
> 
> EDIT: Actually, what was the highest score you have gotten on one of these tests if this isn't so far?


Nope... not yet anyway! 

ugh... I forgot to change the cigar # in my post above to #9 -- if a mod or someone can do it, that'd be great.


----------



## icehog3

Confirming cigar #9 from Andrew's list: Tatuaje Maravilla prototype


----------



## LasciviousXXX

moki said:


> ugh... I forgot to change the cigar # in my post above to #9 -- if a mod or someone can do it, that'd be great.


Done


----------



## moki

LasciviousXXX said:


> Done


xie xie, lao ban!


----------



## Fredster

#10.

Appearance- Colorado wrapper. Silky, no veins. A few small green sun spots. Definately not shade wrapper. Nice looking. Big cigar looks like a Diadema with the foot cut off. 7 1/8 X 52 or 54. Rolled a bit loose but pretty solid.

Pre-light aroma- Not real strong, but definately more Cuban than NC. Little cedary.

Pre-light taste- Ceday, little sweet.

Taste- Spicy, woody, and creamy. Med-full flavor and strength. Fairly complex. Balanced and very nice. Good draw and pretty good burn. Required a couple touch-ups. Dark flaky ash.

Aroma- Smoked this one indoors so harder for me to distinguish aromas. Also several other cigars going. Smoked it at my local cigar lounge with Bassrocker and rdcross (in from Chi-town). What I did smell seemed nice though.

Rating- 9.0. Best tasting of the cigars reviewed. Construction was good, but a tad loose of perfect. Deducted a little for burn.

Verdict- I'll go with Cuban. Although I've never smoked a custom rolled NC, this taste s Cuban. Obviously custom so no marca guess. I've only smoked a few Diademas and it doesn't taste familiar. Some Cohiba-like nuances.


----------



## moki

Fredster said:


> #10.
> 
> Appearance- Colorado wrapper. Silky, no veins. A few small green sun spots. Definately not shade wrapper. Nice looking. Big cigar looks like a Diadema with the foot cut off. 7 1/8 X 52 or 54. Rolled a bit loose but pretty solid.
> 
> Pre-light aroma- Not real strong, but definately more Cuban than NC. Little cedary.
> 
> Pre-light taste- Ceday, little sweet.
> 
> Taste- Spicy, woody, and creamy. Med-full flavor and strength. Fairly complex. Balanced and very nice. Good draw and pretty good burn. Required a couple touch-ups. Dark flaky ash.
> 
> Aroma- Smoked this one indoors so harder for me to distinguish aromas. Also several other cigars going. Smoked it at my local cigar lounge with Bassrocker and rdcross (in from Chi-town). What I did smell seemed nice though.
> 
> Rating- 9.0. Best tasting of the cigars reviewed. Construction was good, but a tad loose of perfect. Deducted a little for burn.
> 
> Verdict- I'll go with Cuban. Although I've never smoked a custom rolled NC, this taste s Cuban. Obviously custom so no marca guess. I've only smoked a few Diademas and it doesn't taste familiar. Some Cohiba-like nuances.


*Cigar #10 results*

Fredster says:

Cigar rating: 9/10
Marca: n/a (custom)
Origin guess: Cuban custom roll
Cuban/non-Cuban: Cuban

Survey says:

Actual origin: Cuban
Cigar #10 is a: Cuban Brinones custom rolled 109 from 2004

*Commentary:*

All I have to say is thank God that you got this one right.  I was not looking forward to another custom rolled dispute! It looks like you may in part have been influenced by never having had a custom non-Cuban custom rolled cigar before... I should have thought of that, and included one. 

I realize this cigar isn't exactly a 109 vitola, but hey, that's what you get with custom rolls sometimes.

This cigar is indeed Cuban, it was rolled by Arnaldo Ovalles Brinones for a friend of mine in Malaysia in 2004. Some of you might remember Aizuddin, he ran the now-defunct MyCigarBlog.com web site. We become friends, to the point that he stayed at my house when he visited the US a few years ago, and this is a cigar he gave me. You can see it here, courtesy of Archive.org, since his web site has been taken offline. He asked Brinones to "make it strong", and the bag was labeled "mucho ligero!"

Glad to see that you enjoyed this cigar, because it's a one of a kind custom... one that I've never had. I've no idea what the tobacco/blend is in this one, but it's definitely Cuban tobacco. Well, we assume it's Cuban tobacco, since he's a Cuban master roller given tobacco to roll with, anyway.

...and with that the Great Fredster Blind Taste Test has concluded, with a respectable 6/10 score! Well done, Fredster! More comments in another post.

*Results so far:*

#1 - Cuban Montecristo Tubos 1970s -- (6.5/10) guessed non-Cuban - _Incorrect_
#2 - non-Cuban Cabaiguan WCD 120 -- (9.5/10) guessed Cuban, Davidoff Chateau Margaux - _Incorrect_
#3 - non-Cuban Don Carlos Senior Blend Robusto - (6/10) guessed non-Cuban - Correct!
#4 -  Cuban Taboada "Super Rodolfo" from LCDH in Tijauna (2006) -- (5/10) guessed non-Cuban - _Incorrect_* 
#5 -  non-Cuban Don Carlos Lancero from 1999 -- (8.5/10) guessed non-Cuban, Opus X or Añejo - Correct!
#6 - non-Cuban Graycliff Red Label Elegante -- (6/10) guessed non-Cuban - Correct!
#7 - non-Cuban Don Carlos 30th Anniversary Double Robusto -- (6/10) guessed non-Cuban, Fuente - Correct!
#8 - Cuban Cohiba Reserva Media Corona -- (6/10) guessed non-Cuban, Pepin - _Incorrect_
#9 - non-Cuban Tatuaje Maravilla -- (6/10) guessed non-Cuban, "similar to a Cuban Partagas" -- Correct!
#10 - Cuban Brinones custom rolled 109 -- (9/10) guessed Cuban, Cohiba-ish custom roll -- Correct!

*Score:* Cigars 4, Fredster 6

_* Fredster questions the authenticity of this cigar_


----------



## BigVito

can I be next? I can tell the difference between a Robusto and Churchill


----------



## pistol

Thanks to Fred and Andrew! I think Fred has proved that he can tell Cuban from Non-Cuban tobacco more times than not! I've learned a lot from this thread and I appreciate you guys putting past differences aside so that the rest of us could enjoy and learn from this thread. BTW, this was the most intense blind testing I've seen on any forum! I'd like to see a blind test with cigars that the "masses" (i.e. me!) can procure/afford! BTW, Cobe-Winston, if you don't mind, I'd like to call that bet (for the five pack) that we had "good," what do you think?


----------



## dayplanner

pistol said:


> BTW, Cobe-Winston, if you don't mind, I'd like to call that bet (for the five pack) that we had "good," what do you think?


I'm not sure whatcha mean, but I owe you 5 smokes! :ss Please PM me your address. 

And 5 more to the troops on the other bet -- please PM instructions and I'll do as told...


----------



## moki

*The Great Fredster Blind Taste Test Summary*

Well, The Great Fredster Blind Taste Test has concluded... and I'd like to thank Fredster for participating in the test. Hopefully he found it interesting, and possibly educational (I think all blind taste tests are educational, no matter your experience level).

Despite some of the claims to the contrary, this was a pretty closely contested taste testing, with Fredster falling just short of the 7/10 needed to win the bet. Given that cigar #4 (the Taboada) had its authenticity disputed (which I still stand by), I'm willing to let the wager be a wash, and not have Fredster pony up the $100. I probably should have never made the $$ wager to begin with, it might have been less contentious.

Despite the unfortunate (and IMHO, unnecessary) rancor at times, I think this was an interesting and useful blind taste test. Although the 6/10 score is only one above a 50/50 "coin flip" scenario, Fredster did display some really nice tasting skill and knowledge throughout the test.

Most interesting to me was the Cuban Montecristo Tubos (1970s) that was deemed to be non-Cuban, and of course the Cabaiguan WCD 120 (2007) that was deemed to be a 15 year + old Cuban Davidoff. But there were other cigars in the blind taste test that I think showed that the line between Cuban and non is not as defined as some might think.

The Cohiba Reserva was thought to be Cuban, but Fredster ended up guessing that it was non-Cuban. Similarly, Fredster also thought that the Tatuaje Maravilla tasted Cuban, but this time ended up veering the right way and guessed that it was non-Cuban. I think pretty clearly, those that were predicting a 10/10 victory were a little ambitious (but admirably supportive).

Taste is a complicated thing...

Another interesting thing is that at least based on this sampling of cigars, Fredster actually preferred non-Cuban cigars to the Cuban cigars that were in the test. The Don Carlos Lancero received 8.5/10, despite him thinking it was non-Cuban. The non-Cuban Cabaiguan WCD 120 that he thought was a Cuban Davidoff received the highest score of the test, a 9.5/10! The Brinones custom roll was second, with a score of 9/10... but all of the other cigars (Cuban or not) were rated a very average 6/10.

So to address the assertions that were made:

1) Can Fredster tell a Cuban cigar anywhere? I think the answer here is "no"; he both guessed that some Cuban cigars were non-Cuban, and that some non-Cuban cigars were Cuban. But there's no shame in that, it is far more difficult than people imagine.

2) Can Fredster tell what marca a Cuban cigar is? No conclusion can be reached, because only 2 of the cigars were regular production Cubans (the Cohiba Reserva and the Montecristo Tubos), but he did get both of those wrong.

3) Has Fredster never had a non-Cuban cigar that impressed him? The answer here is a definite "no"; he found the non-Cuban Cabaiguan to be sublime (9.5/10), and also rated the non-Cuban Don Carlos Lancero very highly (8.5/10)

So what can we conclude here? Nothing, really, this test wasn't large-scale enough to definitively say anything... but I will say that some of the preconceptions that many people had were certainly challenged, and in some cases rebuked in this blind taste test.

And that, my friends, is what I call a success. When your preconceptions are challenged. Rather than re-type it, I'll just link to this thread.

These are my conclusions, anyway, you're of course free to come to your own... Hope you all enjoyed the ride!


----------



## pistol

rdcross said:


> I'm not sure whatcha mean, but I owe you 5 smokes! :ss Please PM me your address.
> 
> And 5 more to the troops...


I mean, we are good man! I don't need the smokes (although I am sure that you would be sending very nice ones!), I just liked having the extra thrill during the taste test! I tell you what though, why don't you send me five unbanded, and I'll send you five unbanded- not to guess country of origin, but I'm curious to see if the band affects my opinions of the cigars. I doubt anyone wants to see a thread for this, but I am curious for my own edification.


----------



## hoax

I waited until the end to put in my comment as it isn't exactly constructive for this specific tasting.

A blind tasting that, at least seems to me, to be rigged to try to confuse the taster is not helpful to the debate of cuban vs. non-cuban. While entertaining to see if Fredster could make the correct guesses the results have no bearing towards my future cigar purchases. A more useful test would have been a pairing of a cuban cigar with it's exact nc copy that is widely sold in the US.

Anyway, good job guys. I hope for there to be many more similar tests.


----------



## moki

BigVito said:


> can I be next? I can tell the difference between a Robusto and Churchill


Honestly, I'm worn out after this experience. I'm not sure I'll do any more blind taste tests here.

However, if these things interest you, I'd suggest following this thread -- only 2 cigars have been group-reviewed so far, but the results have been very interesting... and the upcoming cigars are even more interesting!!


----------



## DennisP

hoax said:


> I waited until the end to put in my comment as it isn't exactly constructive for this specific tasting.
> 
> A blind tasting that, at least seems to me, to be rigged to try to confuse the taster is not helpful to the debate of cuban vs. non-cuban. While entertaining to see if Fredster could make the correct guesses the results have no bearing towards my future cigar purchases. A more useful test would have been a pairing of a cuban cigar with it's exact nc copy that is widely sold in the US.
> 
> Anyway, good job guys. I hope for there to be many more similar tests.


This has to do somewhat with what I was going to post anyway. First, I'm very impressed with Fredster's pallette and thought he did outstanding. I found it interesting to read his reviews and wonder if I can ever pick up some of what he does.

Secondly, I think a lot of the taste is familiarity. Adding normal production cigars that he may smoke regularly isn't about the "Cuban taste" but that of recall. I'm guessing that is why there were so many special blends and aged Cubans in this.

I do think the visuals of the cigar played a role as well. Some tobacco has a "Cuban look" IMO. The Cabaiguan line is a NC marca that would fall into this, IMO. Now, this isn't going to apply to every CC or NC, but I do think it is an influence.

I'd be very interested in a test of only CC's to guess the marca. I'm guessing this would need to have one or two common vitolas chosen to succeed.


----------



## moki

hoax said:


> I waited until the end to put in my comment as it isn't exactly constructive for this specific tasting.
> 
> A blind tasting that, at least seems to me, to be rigged to try to confuse the taster is not helpful to the debate of cuban vs. non-cuban. While entertaining to see if Fredster could make the correct guesses the results have no bearing towards my future cigar purchases. A more useful test would have been a pairing of a cuban cigar with it's exact nc copy that is widely sold in the US.
> 
> Anyway, good job guys. I hope for there to be many more similar tests.


No such "exact copy" exists, and I expected that some would reach the conclusion you have: "I don't care what the results are, I'm not changing my mind." And that's fine.

However, as I stated many times in this thread already, this blind taste test was targeted at several specific assertions. If you want another blind taste test with different parameters, you're welcome to run one.

Sadly, those who don't like the outcome seem inevitably to question the validity of the test to begin with. That's unfortunate, because there are far more interesting things to question (like your own perceptions, and what makes you like/enjoy something, etc.)

However, I will say that I think it's a sad day when we've decided not to learn anything, or at least open our minds a touch.


----------



## BigVito

moki said:


> Honestly, I'm worn out after this experience. I'm not sure I'll do any more blind taste tests here.
> 
> However, if these things interest you, I'd suggest following this thread -- only 2 cigars have been group-reviewed so far, but the results have been very interesting... and the upcoming cigars are even more interesting!!


I'll look into that thread.


----------



## floydpink

moki said:


> Honestly, I'm worn out after this experience. I'm not sure I'll do any more blind taste tests here.
> However, if these things interest you, I'd suggest following this thread -- only 2 cigars have been group-reviewed so far, but the results have been very interesting... and the upcoming cigars are even more interesting!!


Although I can't blame you, that sucks.


----------



## moki

DennisP said:


> Secondly, I think a lot of the taste is familiarity. Adding normal production cigars that he may smoke regularly isn't about the "Cuban taste" but that of recall. I'm guessing that is why there were so many special blends and aged Cubans in this.


Absolutely -- as I stated before, if just regular production marcas that Fredster was intimately familiar with were in the blind taste test, we wouldn't be talking about the broad "Cuban vs. non-Cuban" assertions, we'd be talking about "Can you memorize the taste of something you smoke every day for years?" And I think the answer to that is clearly yes, but still not as well as many people think they can.



> I do think the visuals of the cigar played a role as well. Some tobacco has a "Cuban look" IMO. The Cabaiguan line is a NC marca that would fall into this, IMO. Now, this isn't going to apply to every CC or NC, but I do think it is an influence.


Absolutely, I think that the "look" actually often influences people more than the taste in many cases.



> I'd be very interested in a test of only CC's to guess the marca. I'm guessing this would need to have one or two common vitolas chosen to succeed.


I too agree that this would be an interesting (and fun) thing to do!


----------



## DriftyGypsy

hoax said:


> A more useful test would have been a pairing of a cuban cigar with it's exact nc copy that is widely sold in the US.


Well, that test would never work because there is no exact copy of a Cuban cigar made by the Companies that use the Cuban names. Plus, that test would not be useful in many ways, not the least in that most if not all the better Non-Cuban Cigars do not carry the same Marca as Cuban Cigars ie:

Avo
Fuente
Padron
Ashton
Pepin
and so on...

However, you are more than welcome to work out any sort of test you want. Collect the cigars, find someone to smoke/review them and go with it.


----------



## Lanthor

Bitterness aside, I thought this kicked ass. 

Cheers to you both. 

Nailing that last custom was pretty sick Fredster!


----------



## moki

pistol said:


> Thanks to Fred and Andrew! I think Fred has proved that he can tell Cuban from Non-Cuban tobacco more times than not!


While I do agree that Fredster was a good sport, and demonstrated some great tasting skills during the blind taste test, remember that if you didn't even smoke the cigars, and just flipped a coin to make your guess, you'd (on average) score 5/10 in terms of country of origin.

Now granted, this average is over a long period of time, but you also might get really lucky and score well with your coin flips, and you also might get really unlucky with them and score really poorly.

Fredster's educated guesses caused him to score 6/10, which is better than most do in blind taste tests (and kudos to him for that), but I think is nothing conclusive in terms of an outcome. This isn't to take anything away from him at all, but rather to note that I think the result was not decisive enough either way to come to any judgement (nor was the sample size large enough) in terms of broad generalizations.


----------



## Puffin Fresh

floydpink said:


> Although I can't blame you, that sucks.


:tpd:

Thank you to both Fred and Andrew for putting together a very interesting thread.


----------



## Fredster

It was a fantastic cigar. Really enjoyed it. I have not had time to think, but I'll post my final conclusions later when I have time.



moki said:


> *Cigar #10 results*
> 
> Fredster says:
> 
> Cigar rating: 9/10
> Marca: n/a (custom)
> Origin guess: Cuban custom roll
> Cuban/non-Cuban: Cuban
> 
> Survey says:
> 
> Actual origin: Cuban
> Cigar #10 is a: Cuban Brinones custom rolled 109 from 2004
> 
> *Commentary:*
> 
> All I have to say is thank God that you got this one right.  I was not looking forward to another custom rolled dispute! It looks like you may in part have been influenced by never having had a custom non-Cuban custom rolled cigar before... I should have thought of that, and included one.
> 
> I realize this cigar isn't exactly a 109 vitola, but hey, that's what you get with custom rolls sometimes.
> 
> This cigar is indeed Cuban, it was rolled by Arnaldo Ovalles Brinones for a friend of mine in Malaysia in 2004. Some of you might remember Aizuddin, he ran the now-defunct MyCigarBlog.com web site. We become friends, to the point that he stayed at my house when he visited the US a few years ago, and this is a cigar he gave me. You can see it here, courtesy of Archive.org, since his web site has been taken offline. He asked Brinones to "make it strong", and the bag was labeled "mucho ligero!"
> 
> Glad to see that you enjoyed this cigar, because it's a one of a kind custom... one that I've never had. I've no idea what the tobacco/blend is in this one, but it's definitely Cuban tobacco. Well, we assume it's Cuban tobacco, since he's a Cuban master roller given tobacco to roll with, anyway.
> 
> ...and with that the Great Fredster Blind Taste Test has concluded, with a respectable 6/10 score! Well done, Fredster! More comments in another post.
> 
> *Results so far:*
> 
> #1 - Cuban Montecristo Tubos 1970s -- (6.5/10) guessed non-Cuban - _Incorrect_
> #2 - non-Cuban Cabaiguan WCD 120 -- (9.5/10) guessed Cuban, Davidoff Chateau Margaux - _Incorrect_
> #3 - non-Cuban Don Carlos Senior Blend Robusto - (6/10) guessed non-Cuban - Correct!
> #4 -  Cuban Taboada "Super Rodolfo" from LCDH in Tijauna (2006) -- (5/10) guessed non-Cuban - _Incorrect_*
> #5 -  non-Cuban Don Carlos Lancero from 1999 -- (8.5/10) guessed non-Cuban, Opus X or Añejo - Correct!
> #6 - non-Cuban Graycliff Red Label Elegante -- (6/10) guessed non-Cuban - Correct!
> #7 - non-Cuban Don Carlos 30th Anniversary Double Robusto -- (6/10) guessed non-Cuban, Fuente - Correct!
> #8 - Cuban Cohiba Reserva Media Corona -- (6/10) guessed non-Cuban, Pepin - _Incorrect_
> #9 - non-Cuban Tatuaje Maravilla -- (6/10) guessed non-Cuban, "similar to a Cuban Partagas" -- Correct!
> #10 - Cuban Brinones custom rolled 109 -- (9/10) guessed Cuban, Cohiba-ish custom roll -- Correct!
> 
> *Score:* Cigars 4, Fredster 6
> 
> _* Fredster questions the authenticity of this cigar_


----------



## dayplanner

pistol said:


> I mean, we are good man! I don't need the smokes (although I am sure that you would be sending very nice ones!), I just liked having the extra thrill during the taste test! I tell you what though, why don't you send me five unbanded, and I'll send you five unbanded


All set here. The winner (Pete) insists on sending the loser (little me) cigars in exchange for my cigars. If you don't know what kind of person Pete is, he's the really high class kind. :tu


----------



## moki

*Final results (with links to each review):*

#1 - Cuban Montecristo Tubos 1970s -- (6.5/10) guessed non-Cuban - Incorrect
#2 - non-Cuban Cabaiguan WCD 120 -- (9.5/10) guessed Cuban, Davidoff Chateau Margaux - Incorrect
#3 - non-Cuban Don Carlos Senior Blend Robusto - (6/10) guessed non-Cuban - Correct!
#4 - Cuban Taboada "Super Rodolfo" from LCDH in Tijauna (2006) -- (5/10) guessed non-Cuban - Incorrect* 
#5 - non-Cuban Don Carlos Lancero from 1999 -- (8.5/10) guessed non-Cuban, Opus X or Añejo - Correct!
#6 - non-Cuban Graycliff Red Label Elegante -- (6/10) guessed non-Cuban - Correct!
#7 - non-Cuban Don Carlos 30th Anniversary Double Robusto -- (6/10) guessed non-Cuban, Fuente - Correct!
#8 - Cuban Cohiba Reserva Media Corona -- (6/10) guessed non-Cuban, Pepin - Incorrect
#9 - non-Cuban Tatuaje Maravilla -- (6/10) guessed non-Cuban, "similar to a Cuban Partagas" -- Correct!
#10 - Cuban Brinones custom rolled 109 -- (9/10) guessed Cuban, Cohiba-ish custom roll -- Correct!

*Final Score:* Cigars 4, Fredster 6

* Fredster questions the authenticity of this cigar

_(re-posting my personal summary, just for completeness, so everything is in one place)_

*The Great Fredster Blind Taste Test Thoughts and Personal Conclusions*

Well, The Great Fredster Blind Taste Test has concluded... and I'd like to thank Fredster for participating in the test. Hopefully he found it interesting, and possibly educational (I think all blind taste tests are educational, no matter your experience level).

Despite some of the claims to the contrary, this was a pretty closely contested taste testing, with Fredster falling just short of the 7/10 needed to win the bet. Given that cigar #4 (the Taboada) had its authenticity disputed (which I still stand by), I'm willing to let the wager be a wash, and not have Fredster pony up the $100. I probably should have never made the $$ wager to begin with, it might have been less contentious.

Despite the unfortunate (and IMHO, unnecessary) rancor at times, I think this was an interesting and useful blind taste test. Although the 6/10 score is only one above a 50/50 "coin flip" scenario, Fredster did display some really nice tasting skill and knowledge throughout the test.

Most interesting to me was the Cuban Montecristo Tubos (1970s) that was deemed to be non-Cuban, and of course the Cabaiguan WCD 120 (2007) that was deemed to be a 15 year + old Cuban Davidoff. But there were other cigars in the blind taste test that I think showed that the line between Cuban and non is not as defined as some might think.

The Cohiba Reserva was thought to be Cuban, but Fredster ended up guessing that it was non-Cuban. Similarly, Fredster also thought that the Tatuaje Maravilla tasted Cuban, but this time ended up veering the right way and guessed that it was non-Cuban. I think pretty clearly, those that were predicting a 10/10 victory were a little ambitious (but admirably supportive).

Taste is a complicated thing...

Another interesting thing is that at least based on this sampling of cigars, Fredster actually preferred non-Cuban cigars to the Cuban cigars that were in the test. The Don Carlos Lancero received 8.5/10, despite him thinking it was non-Cuban. The non-Cuban Cabaiguan WCD 120 that he thought was a Cuban Davidoff received the highest score of the test, a 9.5/10! The Brinones custom roll was second, with a score of 9/10... but all of the other cigars (Cuban or not) were rated a very average 6/10.

So to address the specific assertions and claims that were made:

1) Can Fredster tell a Cuban cigar anywhere? I think the answer here is "no"; he both guessed that some Cuban cigars were non-Cuban, and that some non-Cuban cigars were Cuban. But there's no shame in that, it is far more difficult than people imagine.

2) Can Fredster tell what marca a Cuban cigar is? No conclusion can be reached, because only 2 of the cigars were regular production Cubans (the Cohiba Reserva and the Montecristo Tubos), but he did get both of those wrong.

3) Has Fredster never had a non-Cuban cigar that impressed him? The answer here is a definite "no"; he found the non-Cuban Cabaiguan to be sublime (9.5/10), and also rated the non-Cuban Don Carlos Lancero very highly (8.5/10)

So what can we conclude here? Nothing, really, this test wasn't large-scale enough to definitively say anything... but I will say that some of the preconceptions that many people had were certainly challenged, and in some cases rebuked in this blind taste test.

And that, my friends, is what I call a success. When your preconceptions are challenged. Rather than re-type it, I'll just link to this thread.

These are my conclusions, anyway, you're of course free to come to your own... Hope you all enjoyed the ride!


----------



## dayplanner

moki said:


> So what can we conclude here? Nothing, really, this test wasn't large-scale enough to definitively say anything... but I will say that some of the preconceptions that many people had were certainly challenged, and in some cases rebuked in this blind taste test.


I agree with Moki about what can be concluded, but I disagree about why. I think nothing can really be concluded here because not one of the cigars, Cuban or NC, were regular production cigars available to most smokers. None of us can walk into a B&M and buy any of the NCs included off the shelf. Of the Cubans, there was a bitter, strangely harsh 1970s Monte and (Moki admitted) a weirdly bad Cohiba Reserva. Even the cool custom at the end was nearly impossible to get a hold of.

So this was not a test of whether Fred could tell the difference between Cubans and Non-Cubans, but whether he could tell between some weird, some off-tasting, some super-custom, and just about all wildly rare Cubans and Non-Cubans. These are cigars on the extreme periphery of their respective countries of origin.

I hope Moki doesn't say I disagree with the results and thusly bitching. I don't care much about the results. But I watched this test quietly and reserved comment till the end, as was asked of us by participants and mods. Now that the whole process is complete, I believe the strangeness of cigars used really made this a mostly meaningless exercise.


----------



## DriftyGypsy

rdcross said:


> I agree with Moki about what can be concluded, but I disagree about why. I think nothing can really be concluded here because not one of the cigars, Cuban or NC, were regular production cigars available to most smokers. None of us can walk into a B&M and buy any of the NCs included off the shelf. Of the Cubans, there was a bitter, strangely harsh 1970s Monte and (Moki admitted) a weirdly bad Cohiba Reserva. Even the cool custom at the end was nearly impossible to get a hold of.
> 
> So this was not a test of whether Fred could tell the difference between Cubans and Non-Cubans, but whether he could tell between some weird, some off-tasting, some super-custom, and just about all wildly rare Cubans and Non-Cubans. These are cigars on the extreme periphery of their respective countries of origin.
> 
> I hope Moki doesn't say I disagree with the results and thusly bitching. I don't care much about the results. But I watched this test quietly and reserved comment till the end, as was asked of us by participants and mods. Now that the whole process is complete, I believe the strangeness of cigars used really made this a mostly meaningless exercise.


You have a very good point, as most of the cigars both Cuban and Non-Cuban were not regular production. I wonder how this test would have come out with regular production cigars.


----------



## NHsmoker

rdcross said:


> I agree with Moki about what can be concluded, but I disagree about why. I think nothing can really be concluded here because not one of the cigars, Cuban or NC, were regular production cigars available to most smokers. None of us can walk into a B&M and buy any of the NCs included off the shelf. Of the Cubans, there was a bitter, strangely harsh 1970s Monte and (Moki admitted) a weirdly bad Cohiba Reserva. Even the cool custom at the end was nearly impossible to get a hold of.
> 
> So this was not a test of whether Fred could tell the difference between Cubans and Non-Cubans, but whether he could tell between some weird, some off-tasting, some super-custom, and just about all wildly rare Cubans and Non-Cubans. These are cigars on the extreme periphery of their respective countries of origin.


I don't personally think it matters how common or uncommon or even "off-tasting" or "super custom" the cigars were fact of the matter is the tobacco is either cuban or non cuban and the test was to tell just that.

On a side note though I think Freds palate and descriptions were amazing (I wish my palate was that refined) so hats off to Fred.


----------



## moki

rdcross said:


> So this was not a test of whether Fred could tell the difference between Cubans and Non-Cubans, but whether he could tell between some weird, some off-tasting, some super-custom, and just about all wildly rare Cubans and Non-Cubans. These are cigars on the extreme periphery of their respective countries of origin. .


Sure, you're entitled to your opinion -- but as I've stated before, I disagree. The claims that this blind taste test were meant to address were:

1) "I can tell a Cuban from a non-Cuban cigar anywhere" -- so regardless of whether the cigars are custom rolled, or what have you, it doesn't matter (but not all were custom rolled) -- the claim was very broad

2) "I've never had a non-Cuban cigar I've been impressed by" -- again, regardless of the regular release or not, it makes no difference -- the claim was very broad

3) "I can identify Cuban marcas easily" -- this one, I will admit the test didn't address very well, so on that point, I will concede (though as noted, the 2 production Cuban cigars in the test, he got wrong)

A critical thing regarding any test is asking "What is this test meant to measure?" It's important to frame the results, and the cigars I chose, with that in mind (the 3 points listed above). This test was meant to address very broad, bold, all-encompassing statements that were made.

I also think that had I taken more time and care in putting the cigars together, I could have made the test even tougher, by adding some more deeply aged non-Cuban cigars, and some more relatively young regular production Cuban cigars (likely ELs or REs, to prevent the rote memorization of marca/vitola profiles from entering into the picture).

Indeed, if you look at the 4 cigars that he got wrong, only the Taboada was really remotely exotic (your might argue the aged Montecristo as well, but Fredster has stated that he's accustomed to smoking very aged Cuban cigars). The Cabaiguan WCD 120 tastes like other Cabaiguans, the vitola was just chosen because it looks like a Trinidad Reyes.

The _primary_ reason for not picking regular production cigars was:

a) To eliminate any bias in terms of known vitolas

b) To eliminate the rote memorization of common marcas that he may be intimately familiar with

The secondary reason for picking such cigars is, quite frankly, I was curious to see how they would be reviewed blind. 

No cigars that were put into the test had anything "wrong" with them by any means; and I've had people give very different impressions of the aged Montecristo Tubos (very strong vs. very mild), and while the Cohiba Reservas may not be the best that Cuba is putting out, they still are what they are: production Cuban cigars.


----------



## baglorious

MY opinion is that this test was great... but to be REALLY accurate, it should probably be redone with a greater number of variables to lessen the effect of chance and probability. Over a greater number of experiments, if Fredster could pick a Cuban v. non-Cuban 60% of the time, that would become apparent, and thus incontrovertable-ish.

I speak on behalf of the scientific community when I state:

*Fredster and Moki must repeat this test with at least FIFTY cigars.*

Because, of course, the debate would be settled, and no one would argue ever, ever again...


----------



## moki

baglorious said:


> MY opinion is that this test was great... but to be REALLY accurate, it should probably be redone with a greater number of variables to lessen the effect of chance and probability. Over a greater number of experiments, if Fredster could pick a cuban v. non-cuban 60% of the time, that would become apparent.
> 
> *I suggest Fredster and Moki repeat this test with at least FIFTY cigars.*
> 
> Then we'd all be sure and no one would dare argue...


Perhaps you'd just shoot me now, sir?


----------



## bassrocker

rdcross said:


> I agree with Moki about what can be concluded, but I disagree about why. I think nothing can really be concluded here because not one of the cigars, Cuban or NC, were regular production cigars available to most smokers. None of us can walk into a B&M and buy any of the NCs included off the shelf. Of the Cubans, there was a bitter, strangely harsh 1970s Monte and (Moki admitted) a weirdly bad Cohiba Reserva. Even the cool custom at the end was nearly impossible to get a hold of.
> 
> So this was not a test of whether Fred could tell the difference between Cubans and Non-Cubans, but whether he could tell between some weird, some off-tasting, some super-custom, and just about all wildly rare Cubans and Non-Cubans. These are cigars on the extreme periphery of their respective countries of origin.
> 
> I hope Moki doesn't say I disagree with the results and thusly bitching. I don't care much about the results. But I watched this test quietly and reserved comment till the end, as was asked of us by participants and mods. Now that the whole process is complete, I believe the strangeness of cigars used really made this a mostly meaningless exercise.


I agree 100 % , and if it wasn't for what my opinion and Fredster too , The Taboada that you sent was not authentic , He would have went 7 to 3 . I think that this proves nothing to me . The choice of cigars was not anything that Anyone or very few could ever get a hold of . And the results of the test I'm unsure of , If you think that NC's are as good as CC's Then smoke NC's . I dont get the Point that you are trying to make.

Mike


----------



## baglorious

moki said:


> Perhaps you'd just shoot me now, sir?


I s'pose I owe you at least that much for the enjoyment I've received from this post, but I think that would be a bit harsh (and felonious).

p.s. Your quote totally busted me repeatedly editing my post for comedic effect. Dangit!


----------



## moki

bassrocker said:


> I agree 100 % , and if it wasn't for what my opinion and Fredster too , The Taboada that you sent was not authentic , He would have went 7 to 3 . I think that this proves nothing to me . The choice of cigars was not anything that Anyone or very few could ever get a hold of . And the results of the test I'm unsure of , If you think that NC's are as good as CC's Then smoke NC's . I dont get the Point that you are trying to make.
> 
> Mike


Based on your comments in this thread, I didn't expect that you would. As for my response, please see this post. I address the issues you raise explicitly in that post.

Again, the assertion that this is about "Cuban" or "non-Cuban" cigars is a canard; it is about broad statements, not any particular country. I also did a test like this when someone stated they could taste a Nicaraguan cigar anywhere.

I'm sorry you don't like the results; if you want to attack me, or attack the test as I put it together, or attack the authenticity of the cigars, or whatever other diversionary measure makes you feel content, that's fine. I've had my fill of it in this thread... I even predicted it'd happen, and also addressed these things before.


----------



## rumballs

moki said:


> 2) "I've never had a non-Cuban cigar I've been impressed by" -- again, regardless of the regular release or not, it makes no difference -- the claim was very broad


This is an approximate paraphrase of something Fredster said:


Fredster said:


> I've never had a Padron, Opus, or any NC cigar I'd put in the same category as the best Cubans.


...


moki said:


> 3) "I can identify Cuban marcas easily" -- this one, I will admit the test didn't address very well, so on that point, I will concede (though as noted, the 2 production Cuban cigars in the test, he got wrong)


So is this:


Fredster said:


> If you can't tell the difference in taste and aroma among different brands you have dull senses.





Fredster said:


> I too can pick out different brands blind as long as it's a cigar I'm familiar with.


but, I don't find this:


moki said:


> 1) "I can tell a Cuban from a non-Cuban cigar anywhere" -- so regardless of whether the cigars are custom rolled, or what have you, it doesn't matter (but not all were custom rolled) -- the claim was very broad


in any of Fred's posts - can you point to where he said this? Maybe I'm just missing something....


----------



## moki

mmblz said:


> This is an approximate paraphrase of something Fredster said:
> 
> in any of Fred's posts - can you point to where he said this? Maybe I'm just missing something....


Yes, you can find that in a number of posts that Fredster made, check the "Cuban mono-blend" thread, and also check this post in this thread where he agrees to all 3 assertions that I laid out:

_ You are correct on all three counts and I'm not changing my story or backing down from that in any way._


----------



## JBI

bassrocker said:


> I agree 100 % , and if it wasn't for what my opinion and Fredster too , The Taboada that you sent was not authentic , He would have went 7 to 3 . I think that this proves nothing to me . The choice of cigars was not anything that Anyone or very few could ever get a hold of . And the results of the test I'm unsure of , If you think that NC's are as good as CC's Then smoke NC's . I dont get the Point that you are trying to make.
> 
> Mike


Why is this point so difficult to understand for some? *The claim was being able to pick out the taste of CUBAN TOBACCO versus NON-CUBAN TOBACCO (not what cigars, sizes, age or brands were used to do so) *anywhere, anytime or easily etc...! The particular cigars used are not relevant to the claim, period! It's the tobacco in them and even if you threw out the Taboada, it wasn't even close to the aforementioned claims (including I've yet to find a non-Cuban cigar I like or is worth anything according to the rating scores given in this test on many non-Cubans etc...). Furthermore, just picking out Cuban tobacco versus non-Cuban tobacco certainly isn't the most difficult item to determine in blind testing. And IMO personally, far more difficult cigars could have been chosen to review in this test to try and determine Cuban versus non-Cuban tobacco (e.g., like not using Fuentes and some others and incorporating more cigars that have Cuban like tastes and profiles).

Nonetheless, it was an enjoyable read/test though aside from the bickering. :tu:ss


----------



## rumballs

moki said:


> Yes, you can find that in a number of posts that Fredster made, check the "Cuban mono-blend" thread, and also check this post in this thread where he agrees to all 3 assertions that I laid out:


yeah, the mono-blend thread is exactly where I could NOT find it.
thanks for the link to the post in the middle of this thread.


----------



## burninator

In a way, I'm glad to see this over and hoping that we can get back to talking about cigars.

Good show, both of you.


----------



## ritan

moki said:


> *This cigar is indeed Cuban, it was rolled by Arnaldo Ovalles Brinones for a friend of mine in Malaysia in 2004.* Some of you might remember Aizuddin, he ran the now-defunct MyCigarBlog.com web site. We become friends, to the point that he stayed at my house when he visited the US a few years ago, and this is a cigar he gave me. You can see it here, courtesy of Archive.org, since his web site has been taken offline. He asked Brinones to "make it strong", and the bag was labeled "mucho ligero!"
> 
> Glad to see that you enjoyed this cigar, because it's a one of a kind custom... one that I've never had. I've no idea what the tobacco/blend is in this one, but it's definitely Cuban tobacco. Well, we assume it's Cuban tobacco, since he's a Cuban master roller given tobacco to roll with, anyway.


I remember this rolling event. Brinones was indeed at the QbA at the Westin in Kuala Lumpur in 2004. I recall him telling me that he had to hand-carry his tobacco leaves with him as he didn't want anything untoward to happen to them. He rolled quite a few cigars that evening when I was there, just piling them up on the table.


----------



## baglorious

Appreciating the irony of potentially being yet another annoying post, but for the greater good... I'm making the following statement:

If anyone else argues about whether these should have been regular production cigars... or whether the Taboada is fake...

*I'm literally going to stab myself in the eye.* *

Who wants that on their conscience?

p.s. This thread was AWESOME. One of the best discussions I've seen on cigars, EVER. With, of course, the exception of the bickering, commenting, arguing, and annoying comments from persons OTHER than Moki and Fredster, which really made it difficult to read at times.

p.p.s. Thanks again, Moki and Fredster, for handling this with as much class as possible!

(*Exaggeration: "Literally" meaning... "not really.")


----------



## moki

ritan said:


> I remember this rolling event. Brinones was indeed at the QbA at the Westin in Kuala Lumpur in 2004. I recall him telling me that he had to hand-carry his tobacco leaves with him as he didn't want anything untoward to happen to them. He rolled quite a few cigars that evening when I was there, just piling them up on the table.


Yep... but sadly, I think he he'd gotten this cigar wrong, there would be an outburst of protests and insinuations thrown about. Or perhaps I'm just jaded now.


----------



## DennisP

JBI said:


> Why is this point so difficult to understand for some? *The claim was being able to pick out the taste of CUBAN TOBACCO versus NON-CUBAN TOBACCO (not what cigars, sizes, age or brands were used to do so) *anywhere, anytime or easily etc...! The particular cigars used are not relevant to the claim, period! It's the tobacco in them and even if you threw out the Taboada, it wasn't even close to the aforementioned claims (including I've yet to find a non-Cuban cigar I like or is worth anything according to the rating scores given in this test on many non-Cubans etc...). Furthermore, just picking out Cuban tobacco versus non-Cuban tobacco certainly isn't the most difficult item to determine in blind testing. And IMO personally, far more difficult cigars could have been chosen to review in this test to try and determine Cuban versus non-Cuban tobacco (e.g., like not using Fuentes and some others and incorporating more cigars that have Cuban like tastes and profiles).
> 
> Nonetheless, it was an enjoyable read/test though aside from the bickering. :tu:ss


Agreed. I think Fredster did very well and I my only thought for those arguing against the test is they are illiterate. The whole point was cuban vs. non-cuban tobacco. I also agree that this test could've been "trickier" if moki wanted it to be.

Finally, the highest rated cigar by someone who does not like NC cigars was a Nicaraguan. Two of the three highest rated were Pepin and Fuente rolled cigars. That should tell everyone something on the quality of NC that can be made.


----------



## Bigwaved

DennisP said:


> Agreed. I think Fredster did very well and I my only thought for those arguing against the test is they are_* illiterate*_. The whole point was cuban vs. non-cuban tobacco. I also agree that this test could've been "trickier" if moki wanted it to be.
> 
> Finally, the highest rated cigar by someone who does not like NC cigars was a Nicaraguan. Two of the three highest rated were Pepin and Fuente rolled cigars. That should tell everyone something on the quality of NC that can be made.


If one chooses to utilize a big word to describe something, they may want to select the correct one. :2


----------



## Sandman

He thought the 2007 Cabaiguan was a vintage Davidoff!!! This is the biggest news of this whole taste test. Why has nobody focused on this. This tells me I need to run out a find some of these stat!!! Also tells me that apparently some NC's can be DAMN good.

Thanks for doing the taste test guys.:tu


----------



## DennisP

Bigwaved said:


> If one chooses to utilize a big word to describe something, they may want to select the correct one. :2


How was illiterate incorrect? I was suggesting that those people cannot read the thread as it was stated multiple times the purpose was to tell cuban vs. non-cuban tobacco, yet many people still cannot comprehend that.


----------



## muziq

Sandman said:


> He thought the 2007 Cabaiguan was a vintage Davidoff!!! This is the biggest news of this whole taste test. Why has nobody focused on this. This tells me I need to run out a find some of these stat!!! Also tells me that apparently some NC's can be DAMN good.
> 
> Thanks for doing the taste test guys.:tu


OTOH, it might tell you more about vintage Davidoffs :r


----------



## sirxlaughs

I enjoyed reading through this test, and would like to thank both Moki and Fredster for the experience. For me, however, a blind test like this only proves what seems to be common sense. I understand that the original claim was being able to tell the difference between "any" cuban vs non-cuban tobacco. The variety in tobacco quality, however, should make this an impossibility depending on what cigars are used. 
If regular production cigars are not used, then who can guarantee the origin and quality of the tobacco used? 
I am sure that not all tobacco plants grown in Cuban taste "Cuban." 
Another thing with the custom rolls - Who knows where this tobacco is really from? What is the quality of the tobacco? As with the Feunte customs, for example - Do the Fuentes have special tobacco plants growing in their backyards that taste completely different than any of their other plantations? I've always wondered what makes those custom tobaccos so special that they can not make it standard production (yield?). 
The notion of memorizing the way a particular marca or cigar tastes is constantly brought up. Isn't that the whole point? Top quality, regulated, and guaranteed tobacco whose taste you can remember distinctly. 
How could you tell the difference between two things without remembering their differences?
I would not be able to tell the difference between my friends if I did not remember the way they each looked, spoke, dressed, their nationality, etc.
Would any of us know the difference between an A and a B if not for remembering what they sound like, look like, etc?
Following this line of thought, if I did not remember what two different tobaccos tasted like, how could I know which was which? 
The thing is that there are so many different tobaccos from each country, as well as many different variations in quality from year to year.
I think that regular production stuff is more stringently regulated so that it actually begins to taste "familiar" in a sense. I am sure many of us have seen videos of the people who get paid to smoke the cigars for quality assurance (sweet job).

To reiterate what I said in the beginning of this post - I thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread (mindless arguing aside) and am thankful to both Moki and Fredster for putting on a great show for us all.

Happy Smoking. :ss


----------



## Munkey

Fredster - Loved reading your reviews. Glad to see you found some smokable NCs. I think I can speak for a lot of newbies when I say the skill you show in tasting is something we can all aspire to. 

Moki - Appreciate another blind test to read. Sad that you had to defend yourself (or felt the need to do so) to every single post.

Lessons learned - I have a lot to learn about taste. Any set of words can be turned if you get emotional about it or try hard enough. A cigar is a cigar. The experience of smoking it can be priceless. Or it can just be something you do.


----------



## bazookajoe

I like Munkey's format:

Fredster - Nice job. Remarkable ability to detect nuances in flavors and aromas.

Moki - Kudos for offering the taste test and enduring the unpleasantness in the many needless posts.

Lesson learned:



Da Klugs said:


> Agendas are the pretty party dresses worn by drama queens...


.


----------



## dahigman

I wish there were more cigars to review (I'm sure you don't, Andrew). He went through those fast!
I have several opinions about the test as a whole, but I think it would be beating a dead horse.
My conclusion....
Never say _never_ or _always_
No matter what you are talking about there are exceptions.
Thanks for such an entertaining thread Fred and Andrew!


----------



## pnoon

PuffDaddy said:


> I wish there were more cigars to review (I'm sure you don't, Andrew). He went through those fast!
> I have several opinions about the test as a whole, but I think it would be beating a dead horse.
> My conclusion....
> Never say _never_ or _always_
> No matter what you are talking about there are exceptions.
> Thanks for such an entertaining thread Fred and Andrew!


You are a fart smeller - er, smart feller, Jeff.


----------



## a2vr6

bassrocker said:


> I agree 100 % , and if it wasn't for what my opinion and Fredster too , The Taboada that you sent was not authentic , He would have went 7 to 3 . I think that this proves nothing to me . The choice of cigars was not anything that Anyone or very few could ever get a hold of . And the results of the test I'm unsure of , If you think that NC's are as good as CC's Then smoke NC's . I dont get the Point that you are trying to make.
> 
> Mike


The point is to show that even to a seasoned "Cuban" cigar smoker, they cannot identify Cuban/NC tobacco 100% of the time. Moki's test shows that there are great cigars that are Cuban AND NC...period. Thanks to Moki for this blind taste test.:tu


----------



## Da Klugs

Well it's over now. Kudos to Fred for stepping up to the challenge and to Moki for setting Fred up with some interesting cigars. It was getting exhausting changing my sig line every day though. 

Congratulations Andrew you won the bet!

The rest? Kind of a stretch to call this a test of anything other than 2 mens wills and viewpoints. It was a bet. Test's have rules which make them balanced and the results meaningful. This process did not have balance as it was one that started with ... lets say some bold assertions that were called out upon. Pretty fun none the less. Moki did what any competitive guy would do. Find the most C of the NC cigars he could to include and the most NC of the C cigars he had available. As this is a hobby of his, seems to have collected some gems which support the argument and provide the edge for a bet.

What did the results prove? Not sure other than for me at least, if I ever have the opportunity to choose some cigars out of Andrews Humi pretty sure I'll go NC.  Some pretty sick NC cigars that only the truly hooked up get the chance to smoke.


----------



## Bigwaved

DennisP said:


> How was illiterate incorrect? I was suggesting that those people cannot read the thread as it was stated multiple times the purpose was to tell cuban vs. non-cuban tobacco, yet many people still cannot comprehend that.


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/illiterate

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/comprehension

Maybe this will help.


----------



## DennisP

Bigwaved said:


> http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/illiterate
> 
> http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/comprehension
> 
> Maybe this will help.


Yep, you again proved my point:


> unable to read or write


Exactly what I was referring to.

And yes, they probably can't comprehend either, but I specifically chose illiterate to refer to lack of ability to read, not comprehend. It wasn't just becuase it was a big word.


----------



## icehog3

DennisP said:


> Yep, you again proved my point:
> 
> Exactly what I was referring to.
> 
> And yes, they probably can't comprehend either, but I specifically chose illiterate to refer to lack of ability to read, not comprehend. It wasn't just becuase it was a big word.


If they were reading it and not comprehending it, they were NOT illiterate. 

Great thread Andrew and Fred. I personally think that MOST NCs can't stand up to Cubans, but there are obviously exceptions. Fuente and Pepin products are among some of the best cigars available. I think this thread should teach us all to smoke with an open mind, and decide for ourselves what we enjoy smoking, regardless of the cigars' origins.


----------



## DennisP

icehog3 said:


> If they were reading it and not comprehending it, they were NOT illiterate.


Who said they were reading it themselves?


----------



## icehog3

DennisP said:


> Who said they were reading it themselves?


I guess nothing is impossible. :r


----------



## Sancho

Da Klugs said:


> What did the results prove? Not sure other than for me at least, if I ever have the opportunity to choose some cigars out of Andrews Humi pretty sure I'll go NC.  Some pretty sick NC cigars that only the truly hooked up get the chance to smoke.


You are not kidding, Moki has some crazy rare and aged NC stock. Although I may have to light the DC Lancero I have been sitting on now :tu

Thanks Fredster and Moki!


----------



## Pyro

moki said:


> Honestly, I'm worn out after this experience. I'm not sure I'll do any more blind taste tests here....


I think that's the right decision, too many people here does not seem to have the interest or knowledge to discuss cigars and taste at higher levels!


----------



## DriftyGypsy

Ah... just one question, isn't Moki going to smoke and review some cigars... or is that another thread...


----------



## opus

opus said:


> Assuming the Cuban cigar samples are mainstream factory cigars, I have no doubt Fred will get 10 out of ten correct as Cuban or non-Cuban. Go get em Fredster!


Sigh..... I knew the deck was going to be stacked. Too bad it wasn't a fair and honest test, would have been fun.


----------



## D. Generate

Thanks Moki and Fred. Congrats Fred, those were some good reviews and you did far better than I could have hoped to do.

Moki you sent an impressive lineup it was fascinating to read the reviews.

I still don't understand the bitching/whining/sniping from the sidelines, but I doubt I ever will. If you didn't like it, do your own damn test and I'll avoid the whole thread.


----------



## burninator

icehog3 said:


> I guess nothing is impossible. :r


:tpd: I wish I had DennisP money. I'd hire someone to read this board to me.


----------



## opus

D. Generate said:


> Thanks Moki and Fred. Congrats Fred, those were some good reviews and you did far better than I could have hoped to do.
> 
> Moki you sent an impressive lineup it was fascinating to read the reviews.
> 
> *I still don't understand the bitching/whining/sniping from the sidelines, but I doubt I ever will.* If you didn't like it, do your own damn test and I'll avoid the whole thread.


 I think you are right, if you don't understand the complaints from both sides now, you probably never will.


----------



## Siamang

This thread is cattier than an entire season of America's Next Top Model. :sl


----------



## onlyonerm

rdcross said:


> I agree with Moki about what can be concluded, but I disagree about why. I think nothing can really be concluded here because not one of the cigars, Cuban or NC, were regular production cigars available to most smokers. None of us can walk into a B&M and buy any of the NCs included off the shelf. Of the Cubans, there was a bitter, strangely harsh 1970s Monte and (Moki admitted) a weirdly bad Cohiba Reserva. Even the cool custom at the end was nearly impossible to get a hold of.
> 
> So this was not a test of whether Fred could tell the difference between Cubans and Non-Cubans, but whether he could tell between some weird, some off-tasting, some super-custom, and just about all wildly rare Cubans and Non-Cubans. These are cigars on the extreme periphery of their respective countries of origin.
> 
> I hope Moki doesn't say I disagree with the results and thusly bitching. I don't care much about the results. But I watched this test quietly and reserved comment till the end, as was asked of us by participants and mods. Now that the whole process is complete, I believe the strangeness of cigars used really made this a mostly meaningless exercise.


Why does it matter if the cigars were regular production or not? The test was if he could tell the difference between cuban or non-cuban tobacco (how does the fact that the cigar was regular production or not effect this?) :2


----------



## wayner123

D. Generate said:


> I still don't understand the bitching/whining/sniping from the sidelines, but I doubt I ever will. If you didn't like it, do your own damn test and I'll avoid the whole thread.





onlyonerm said:


> Why does it matter if the cigars were regular production or not? The test was if he could tell the difference between cuban or non-cuban tobacco (how does the fact that the cigar was regular production or not effect this?)


I think many people thought that this would be a thread they could go to and see what cigars would match up with Cubans. Hoping that they could then go out and buy those cigars that an "expert" was fooled by.

However, this was merely just a bet between two guys and they publically put it on here for us to follow. Not much else other than that.

Thanks for the ride Fredster and Moki. It was interesting seeing the results.


----------



## opus

onlyonerm said:


> Why does it matter if the cigars were regular production or not? The test was if he could tell the difference between cuban or non-cuban tobacco (how does the fact that the cigar was regular production or not effect this?) :2


Technically, you are correct IMHO. Fredster made a very general blanket statement, Moki called him on it, and used everything at his disposal to prove him wrong, and succeeded in doing so. I think this was entertainment and not a true "test". I still believe that Cuban cigars made from good tobacco and stored properly have a distinct flavor that is recognizable. There are Cuban cigars with bad leaf, and NC cigars that are very good. As you all know I am a fan of Opus X for one example. Sorry if I have offended anyone in this thread. I'm done here.

Thank you Fredster and Moki for your time and troubles.


----------



## carni

wayner123 said:


> I think many people thought that this would be a thread they could go to and see what cigars would match up with Cubans. Hoping that they could then go out and buy those cigars that an "expert" was fooled by..


I think those looking for the above quote just go with PEPIN's.....if you are looking for the closest thing to cc flavors then try all of pepin's blends. IMHO the one that is really close is the Tatuaje brown labels...especially the reserva SW. But that is not saying cc will have the best flavors that fit your palatte, hence whores of all kind:ss.

I do have to say if I were in a blind taste test, getting a bunch of rare and custom rolled cigars wouldn't be all that bad, even if I wiffed on all of them.

Moki and Fredster, great job guys. This test belongs in the Hall and is the most interested I have been in a thread since my gorilla inception.:tu


----------



## pinoyman

Thanks Moki for a very good Blind taste!:tu

Fred, my respect for you and thanks for such a great review!:tu


----------



## kjd2121

As Elaine from Seinfeld was saying - "Just die already"

Great entertainment Fred and Moki - Very exciting!!


----------



## txmatt

D. Generate said:


> Thanks Moki and Fred. Congrats Fred, those were some good reviews and you did far better than I could have hoped to do.
> 
> Moki you sent an impressive lineup it was fascinating to read the reviews.
> 
> I still don't understand the bitching/whining/sniping from the sidelines, but I doubt I ever will. If you didn't like it, do your own damn test and I'll avoid the whole thread.


There is no understanding it D. Generate. According to the nay sayers Andrew was supposed to provide Fredster with cigars he smokes everyday or it was "stacking the deck" or "cheating".

Andrew called upon the broad statements "I haven't had a Non-Cuban cigar that I liked" and "I can tell a Cuban cigar anywhere". To me Andrew proved these statements wrong. No matter how rare/unique the cigars were; the broad statements can be challenged and Andrew did so successfully IMO. Andrew provided Fredster with some extremely valuable, unique, and rare cigars. Instead of realizing this and complimenting Andrew for his generosity we saw some Habanotards attacking him.

Fredster - you were a great sport throughout the test. I wish those "on your side" could have better followed your example. Your comments in the reviews clearly display how finely tuned your palate is. If recent events cause embargoes to end; Havana should seek your guidance to ensure their blends remain consistent.

Andrew - you continually go out of your way to benefit the online cigar community. Club Stogie and all of the other boards you participate on are very lucky to have you. While some will question your methods or motives please realize that many people reading this thread remained silent and were entertained and enlightened by it. NO THREAD in the Habanos Discussion area comes even close to the number of views that this one has. This thread totally eclipsed them; it will certainly top 27K views today, whereas the previous "great topic in Habanos" barely topped 10k views since 2005. No topic of great interest will ever lack minor controversy and only a handful of people were giving you crap.

I sincerely hope that you do continue these blinds tests. I think it is a true shame when new smokers read statements like "I find no NC worthwhile" from Veteran smokers. Following their advice many smokers miss out on excellent cigars and go from buying their first box of Curly Heads to smoking nothing but Cuban cigars. There are ~32 Cuban marcas being manufactured right now, there are 1233 name brands of Non Cuban cigars listed in the 2008 edition of Perleman's. Some people are really missing out, and tests like this can help open-minded BOTLs find new gustatory experiences.

-Matt-


----------



## Da Klugs

onlyonerm said:


> Why does it matter if the cigars were regular production or not? The test was if he could tell the difference between cuban or non-cuban tobacco (how does the fact that the cigar was regular production or not effect this?) :2


100% agree if you replace the word "test" above with "bet". Test implies things other than what was determined in this thread. It was fun to watch all the elements and both Fred and Andrew proved themselves to be worthy of their renown.



txmatt said:


> I sincerely hope that you do continue these blinds tests. I think it is a true shame when new smokers read statements like "I find no NC worthwhile" from Veteran smokers. Following their advice many smokers miss out on excellent cigars and go from buying their first box of Curly Heads to smoking nothing but Cuban cigars. There are ~32 Cuban marcas being manufactured right now, there are 1233 name brands of Non Cuban cigars listed in the 2008 edition of Perleman's. Some people are really missing out, and tests like this can help open-minded BOTLs find new gustatory experiences.
> 
> -Matt-


I'm with budget smoker! There is certainly one that is getting some serioius new business as a result of this test. (At least from me) .


----------



## billybarue

Da Klugs said:


> I'm with budget smoker! There is certainly one that is getting some serioius new business as a result of this test. (At least from me) .


I've got a box of Cabaiguans on the way. No, you can't have any!:tg


----------



## Harpo

I like cigars.


----------



## opus

If nothing else, this thread has exposed a few asshats. Thanks for that Moki.


----------



## bassrocker

opus said:


> If nothing else, this thread has exposed a few asshats. Thanks for that Moki.


:tpd: :r :BS


----------



## PadronMe

opus said:


> If nothing else, this thread has exposed a few asshats. Thanks for that Moki.


It sure did.


----------



## Da Klugs

opus said:


> If nothing else, this thread has exposed a few asshats. Thanks for that Moki.


Nah just the closest you are going to get to a "politics" version of a cigar thread. :r:ss Like a political discussion you have strongly held beliefs and the conversation inevitably becomes personal. It's what made this so entertaining from a variety of aspects.


----------



## GAW

Da Klugs said:


> Nah just the closest you are going to get to a "politics" version of a cigar thread. :r:ss Like a political discussion you have strongly held beliefs and the conversation inevitably becomes personal. It's what made this so entertaining from a variety of aspects.


Indeed - "country of origin" bias will tear this forum apart some day!
Tremendous effort Moki and Fredster-The CS version of Hardball!


----------



## duhman

I long ago gave up on "Country of Origin" and have gone with what I like the most that costs the least. Along with a few (too many) "special" extras.


----------



## rumballs

moki said:


> ...
> remember that if you didn't even smoke the cigars, and just flipped a coin to make your guess, you'd (on average) score 5/10 in terms of country of origin.
> ...
> Fredster's educated guesses caused him to score 6/10
> ...


One last thought.
In the Stroop Effect Experiment, literate people actually do WORSE than illiterate people.


----------



## Spect

mmblz said:


> One last thought.
> In the Stroop Effect Experiment, literate people actually do WORSE than illiterate people.



The Stroop effect relates to parallel processing, models of memory vis-a-vis interference and effects of automaticity. Maybe I'm lost in the psychology aspect, but I don't understand the analogy.


----------



## gnukfu

Spect said:


> The Stroop effect relates to parallel processing, models of memory vis-a-vis interference and effects of automaticity. Maybe I'm lost in the psychology aspect, but I don't understand the analogy.


:tpd: Yeah! I have no clue what you're saying Ray but it sure sounds good.  I guess this means I will do better than you in taste tests.


----------



## Bax

gnukfu said:


> :tpd: Yeah! I have no clue what you're saying Ray but it sure sounds good.  I guess this means I will do better than you in taste tests.


Yeah, your tounge isn't tired from using all those fancy words. Rested tounges taste better. :tu


----------



## Fredster

mmblz said:


> One last thought.
> In the Stroop Effect Experiment, literate people actually do WORSE than illiterate people.


Exactly. I had maybe a 50/50 shot if I guessed. I was considering many factors and definately not guessing at any point. When someone is intentionally trying to sway you it's less than 50/50. I don't want to hear he wasn't trying hard to sway me. The best aged and special edition NC's he could find, and some "off" Cubans others rated poorly and he himself said sucked, and an extremely likely fake Taboada.

The exception was the Cuban #10 custom. It was as I said (before varifying it was Cuban) the best tasting cigar in the test and taste is the number one reason I smoke what I like best which is Cuban cigars. Yes, better tasting than the #2 Cabaiguan. I was being honest as possible and rated the Cabaiguan a bit higher because it was just rolled absolutely perfect. I thought it was funny when I didn't rate the other 2 Cubans high he said they sucked and were over-rated. The one I liked he said he never tried. I'm sure it would hurt him to say there are some outstanding Cuban cigars, and to my tastes, with no NC equal flavor-wise.

Mostly I thought this test was annoying and I don't like to put that much thought into this hobby. I don't like being over analytical with cigars. I just smoke what I think tastes best for my $$$. I still think other than maybe a few isolated incidents the whole mono-blend issue is BS. Moki strikes me as having an agenda, and that is to prove Cuban cigars are inferior to NC. The list of cigars sent proved this. There sure as hell weren't any recent production Cuban's that would have anything to do with that.

The only suprise of this test to me was the Cabaiguan. It was a real NC fooler and very good. Reasonable price. Flawless construction. If nothing else I may have found one NC cigar I like enough to buy. Looking forward to trying more of these to see if it still has the same impact on me. May not be something I can find though. If another NC cigar comes out that everyone thinks is Cuban and rates high blind, I'd try it for sure.

The other NC I rated pretty good (8) was the 99 Fuente Lancero. I knew what is was and I still rated it good. If I had an agenda or was not being 100% honest, I could have rated it bad because I knew with 100% certainty it was an aged Fuente. Distinct smell and taste with Fuente and not anything like Cuban. One of the few NC cigars I have experience with in the past. I started smoking Fuentes before getting hooked on Cubans in the mid 90's. These aged Fuentes are good, but I have no problem buying 1999 or a bit earlier Cubans from my supplier that are cheaper and in most cases taste as good or better to me.

The rest of the NC's were not good. Some may improve with age? The Graycliff are crap and not worth $2.00 let alone 15.00-20.00. Very weak.

Cigar #9 was strong and could pass for a Cuban E.L. or a young Partagas maybe to some. May age well? There was something about the taste that just wasn't right though. Pretty simple,strong, earthy cigar. The earthy flavor had a bit different taste than Cuban earthy cigars.

My final thoughts then I'm done. I'm really tired of this thread as I'm sure a lot of you guys are. Not trying to get the last word in and if Moki responds I'm not going to. I just have not had time the last couple days to post this.

The Mono-blend theory is BS. I'm sure every oddity has happened at one time or another in Cuba, but not even worth mentioning or talking about to me.

The line between Cuban and NC is still pretty clear to me overall. I could walk into my local cigar shop and I doubt there is anything there that would fool me. They don't have the Cabaiguans or aged Padrons,etc. There are some foolers out there, but pretty few and far between considering 100's or 1000's that would not fool anyone experienced. I should have known the Monte Tubos and the Cohiba Reserva. I said everything pointed to Cuban on both. I even nailed the taste profile perfectly on both. Problem is I knew he was trying to trip me up and I over thought it instead of going with my gut. This is why I don't buy I had a 50/50 chance.

The last cigar #10 was just phenomenol tasting. Thank you! I have never had anything that good NC as far as taste. It had the whole package of flavor,strength, and complexity. Cigar #2 would have got an 8 on flavor, but overall it got a 9.5 because it really was a thing of beauty construction-wise. If you said to me, "Fred you can have 10 more of any cigar in the test free," I would say 10 more of #10 please.

I'm glad Moki said I don't owe him the $100.00. Taking into consideration the Taboada, and I sent him 13 excellent cigars that cost me over 100.00, it would have been pretty lame.

I hope he approaches the cigars I gave him with an open mind. Some good stuff in there for sure. I'm done on the topic. I'll respond to his reviews, but I have nothing left to say here.


----------



## wayner123

Good to see your side of the testing.

I think people wanted to see what cigars would fool you and hopefully be able run out and buy them. I think they so much wanted that, because they do not and will not have the vendor contacts that you do. I guess most assume that it is easy to get good cubans. But in reality unless you are throwing down thousands it really isn't. Plus I know of a lot of BOTL's that do not want to deal with getting on the "radar" so to speak, and are afraid to buy them. 

So to me the hunt goes on. Cuban and Non Cuban wise :ss

Thanks again.


----------



## pbrennan10

Fredster said:


> When someone is intentionally trying to sway you it's less than 50/50. I don't want to hear he wasn't trying hard to sway me. The best aged and special edition NC's he could find, and some "off" Cubans others rated poorly and he himself said sucked, and an extremely likely fake Taboada.


...
I think the moral of this story is it's not all about the origin.


----------



## floydpink

Fredster said:


> I'm glad Moki said I don't owe him the $100.00. Taking into consideration the Taboada, and I sent him 13 excellent cigars that cost me over 100.00, it would have been pretty lame.
> 
> . I'll respond to his reviews, but I have nothing left to say here.


A statement worth much more than the $100, and a testament to Moki's kindness.


----------



## Blueface

IMHO, setting all else that went on aside, I truly enjoyed being a visitor/viewer and allowing things to take their course. I truly learned a whole lot and hope others did as well.

I have been smoking cigars now for at least 15 yrs and heck if my pallate is refined enough for me to do a blind test. If a coin toss would yield 5 out of 5, bet you I couldn't even come up with three right, even while doing that.

We herfed at LJ's this past weekend and I employed this thread.
I gave out a handful of cigars with the bands off.
Folks there had gotten these from me before.
Only after hints and discussions, was one person able to nail it.
However, I gave them along the way the ring size, length and other clues.
They turned out to be Cohiba Siglo VIs.
Clearly, this is a tough thing to do, regardless.

Can't wait to read Moki's results on his end.


----------



## cigarflip

I've followed the thread all the way through and personally, I don't know how I can nail this even at a 50% rate. I haven't smoked an NC in over 2 years, so heck if I know what kind of changes they have done to the cigars. Although I enjoy and pretty much discern the cuban taste of the different marcas, *it's only on the marcas that I like*! You add the different variables like new cigar to aged cigar to vintage cigar and you can really get into so much trouble. I applaud Fred's effort but this whole thing is bigger than cuban vs. NC comparison.


----------



## txmatt

Fredster,

my opinion of your behavior in this test has dropped. You aren't being a sport. In my post yesterday I hoped to smooth things over by ignoring some things and offer up an olive branch. I had hoped to not see the likes of post #670.

Andrew had two stated goals from the start; even with attacks on his motives, and the choice of and authenticity of the cigars he sent, his goals were proven.

*Goal 1 - Disprove Statement "I can tell a Cuban cigar anywhere" *You believed the 07 Cabaiguan was a "_Davidoff Chateaue Margaux_" as your "best guess". You are backpeddling now and second guessing your rating saying it was construction that lead you to move the rating to a 9.5.. :BS:BS:BS

You bring up the fact that the leaf was probably aged since it was a special release. Cabaiguan has only been in existance as a blend/brand since 2005; perhaps they used some of the Pinar tobacco?? Was it the excellent construction that lead you to say that it provided an _"Exotic mix of sweet spices and cedar in the beginning. The spice lessens after an inch and the cigar becomes sweeter as it's smoked. Very complex and taste like aged tobacco. Long, sweet, earthy finish." _COME ON!! You said the Cabaiguan was _"Cuban for sure."_ and were wrong. You cannot tell a Cuban cigar anywhere.

*Goal 2 - Disprove Statement "There aren't any Non-Cuban cigars I like or consider worth buying" 
*The same cigar proves your statement wrong. The _*least expensive, most readily available*_ cigar in the bunch he sent you, the Cabaiguan disproves your statement. All of your positioning, semantics, attacks and backpeddling aside Fredster; even if it is an 8 instead of a 9.5 due to its great construction. I don't think you can get Davi's for less than $100 a stick. I am no expert on Davis, I don't even spend the dough on the Dominican ones. This $8 cigar scored a backpeddled 8 or an initial 9.5 rating on your scale. *Either rating can't be called "not worth buying" and either rating would only be given to a cigar you like*.

"_I can't go into a cigar store and find Cabaiguans or aged Padrons_" As far as I am aware of Fred you can't walk into any cigar stores in Florida and buy aged Cubans either. You can order them online of course. So here are some online links for those Cabaiguans (I don't mind sharing sources):
http://www.2guyssmokeshop.com/Cabaiguan+Cigars.html
http://www.holts.com/category.html?id=201406&trail=86665
http://www.famous-smoke.com/cigars/search/sr.cfm/st/1/bc/CBG
http://www.coronacigar.com/products/Cabaiguan_Cigars_by_Pepin_Garcia_pid391_cid1.html
http://www.leafandale.com/shop/index.php?cPath=21_186&osCsid=052a43fd726e9204c1b67515e401bbda
http://www.***************.com/cabaiguan-cigar/
Incidentally there are also 15 local stores in your state that carry them..
http://tatuajecigars.com/retailersGMap.htm

Andrew has said time and time again he likes Cubans and Non Cubans alike and he was only looking to enlighten you that there are Cubans worth buying. I tried to enlighten you myself last year and sent you a Cabaiguan; but you seem too set on a cigar's origin and unable to see past guaranteed authentic band. You guessed the Cabaiguan to be a Davi. It didn't take 10 cigars to prove your broad statements wrong, it only took one.

You still strike me as a generous guy Fred, but you clearly don't have an open mind and will fight against reason to defend your mindset that black tobacco grown outside of Cuba isn't worth smoking.

I hope other BOTL's who read your broad statements in the future can, after also seeing this thread, realize the nature of your mindset. In that case the $300 of cigars Andrew sent you won't have been wasted.

Peace,
-Matt-


----------



## Sean9689

Dude, just give it up already.
This thread needs to self-destruct.


----------



## BigVito

Do I have to close this thread ?


----------



## kjd2121

BigVito said:


> Do I have to close this thread ?


Please do, pleeeeaaaaasssseeeee!!!


----------



## BigVito

kjd2121 said:


> Please do, pleeeeaaaaasssseeeee!!!


:r ok I don't have the power to do so. :hn


----------



## Puffy69

You guys dont know shit about cigars...:r


----------



## freakygar

Rock Star said:


> You guys dont know shit about cigars...


:r:r:r:r:r:r:r

But floydpink knows his :BS

All the best,
Al


----------



## BigVito

Rock Star said:


> You guys dont know shit about cigars...:r


I know who rolled the one I smoked last night


----------



## floydpink

ahc4353 said:


> :r:r:r:r:r:r:r
> 
> But floydpink knows his :BS
> 
> All the best,
> Al


uh, thanks? Got plenty of practice identifying it and can tell it anywhere, as well as it's origin.


----------



## freakygar

floydpink said:


> uh, thanks? Got plenty of practice identifying it and can tell it anywhere, as well as it's origin.


To clarify, I am in agreement with floydpink that moki is a class act.

All the best,
Al


----------



## ComicBookFreak

txmatt said:


> Fredster,
> 
> my opinion of your behavior in this test has dropped. You aren't being a sport. In my post yesterday I hoped to smooth things over by ignoring some things and offer up an olive branch. I had hoped to not see the likes of post #670.
> 
> Andrew had two stated goals from the start; even with attacks on his motives, and the choice of and authenticity of the cigars he sent, his goals were proven.
> 
> *Goal 1 - Disprove Statement "I can tell a Cuban cigar anywhere" *You believed the 07 Cabaiguan was a "_Davidoff Chateaue Margaux_" as your "best guess". You are backpeddling now and second guessing your rating saying it was construction that lead you to move the rating to a 9.5.. :BS:BS:BS
> 
> You bring up the fact that the leaf was probably aged since it was a special release. Cabaiguan has only been in existance as a blend/brand since 2005; perhaps they used some of the Pinar tobacco?? Was it the excellent construction that lead you to say that it provided an _"Exotic mix of sweet spices and cedar in the beginning. The spice lessens after an inch and the cigar becomes sweeter as it's smoked. Very complex and taste like aged tobacco. Long, sweet, earthy finish." _COME ON!! You said the Cabaiguan was _"Cuban for sure."_ and were wrong. You cannot tell a Cuban cigar anywhere.
> 
> *Goal 2 - Disprove Statement "There aren't any Non-Cuban cigars I like or consider worth buying"
> *The same cigar proves your statement wrong. The _*least expensive, most readily available*_ cigar in the bunch he sent you, the Cabaiguan disproves your statement. All of your positioning, semantics, attacks and backpeddling aside Fredster; even if it is an 8 instead of a 9.5 due to its great construction. I don't think you can get Davi's for less than $100 a stick. I am no expert on Davis, I don't even spend the dough on the Dominican ones. This $8 cigar scored a backpeddled 8 or an initial 9.5 rating on your scale. *Either rating can't be called "not worth buying" and either rating would only be given to a cigar you like*.
> 
> "_I can't go into a cigar store and find Cabaiguans or aged Padrons_" As far as I am aware of Fred you can't walk into any cigar stores in Florida and buy aged Cubans either. You can order them online of course. So here are some online links for those Cabaiguans (I don't mind sharing sources):
> http://www.2guyssmokeshop.com/Cabaiguan+Cigars.html
> http://www.holts.com/category.html?id=201406&trail=86665
> http://www.famous-smoke.com/cigars/search/sr.cfm/st/1/bc/CBG
> http://www.coronacigar.com/products/Cabaiguan_Cigars_by_Pepin_Garcia_pid391_cid1.html
> http://www.leafandale.com/shop/index.php?cPath=21_186&osCsid=052a43fd726e9204c1b67515e401bbda
> http://www.***************.com/cabaiguan-cigar/
> Incidentally there are also 15 local stores in your state that carry them..
> http://tatuajecigars.com/retailersGMap.htm
> 
> Andrew has said time and time again he likes Cubans and Non Cubans alike and he was only looking to enlighten you that there are Cubans worth buying. I tried to enlighten you myself last year and sent you a Cabaiguan; but you seem too set on a cigar's origin and unable to see past guaranteed authentic band. You guessed the Cabaiguan to be a Davi. It didn't take 10 cigars to prove your broad statements wrong, it only took one.
> 
> You still strike me as a generous guy Fred, but you clearly don't have an open mind and will fight against reason to defend your mindset that black tobacco grown outside of Cuba isn't worth smoking.
> 
> I hope other BOTL's who read your broad statements in the future can, after also seeing this thread, realize the nature of your mindset. In that case the $300 of cigars Andrew sent you won't have been wasted.
> 
> Peace,
> -Matt-


:tpd: I couldn't have said it any better.

I mean c'mon, Fredster thought a Cabaiguan was a Davidoff Chateau Margaux. Which either tells me the Davidoff Chateau Margaux is either really highly over-rated or the Cabaiguan was really just that damn good.

CBF


----------



## dayplanner

txmatt said:


> Fredster,
> 
> my opinion of your behavior in this test has dropped. You aren't being a sport. In my post yesterday I hoped to smooth things over by ignoring some things and offer up an olive branch. I had hoped to not see the likes of post #670.
> 
> Andrew had two stated goals from the start; even with attacks on his motives, and the choice of and authenticity of the cigars he sent, his goals were proven.
> 
> *Goal 1 - Disprove Statement "I can tell a Cuban cigar anywhere" *You believed the 07 Cabaiguan was a "_Davidoff Chateaue Margaux_" as your "best guess". You are backpeddling now and second guessing your rating saying it was construction that lead you to move the rating to a 9.5.. :BS:BS:BS
> 
> You bring up the fact that the leaf was probably aged since it was a special release. Cabaiguan has only been in existance as a blend/brand since 2005; perhaps they used some of the Pinar tobacco?? Was it the excellent construction that lead you to say that it provided an _"Exotic mix of sweet spices and cedar in the beginning. The spice lessens after an inch and the cigar becomes sweeter as it's smoked. Very complex and taste like aged tobacco. Long, sweet, earthy finish." _COME ON!! You said the Cabaiguan was _"Cuban for sure."_ and were wrong. You cannot tell a Cuban cigar anywhere.
> 
> *Goal 2 - Disprove Statement "There aren't any Non-Cuban cigars I like or consider worth buying"
> *The same cigar proves your statement wrong. The _*least expensive, most readily available*_ cigar in the bunch he sent you, the Cabaiguan disproves your statement. All of your positioning, semantics, attacks and backpeddling aside Fredster; even if it is an 8 instead of a 9.5 due to its great construction. I don't think you can get Davi's for less than $100 a stick. I am no expert on Davis, I don't even spend the dough on the Dominican ones. This $8 cigar scored a backpeddled 8 or an initial 9.5 rating on your scale. *Either rating can't be called "not worth buying" and either rating would only be given to a cigar you like*.
> 
> "_I can't go into a cigar store and find Cabaiguans or aged Padrons_" As far as I am aware of Fred you can't walk into any cigar stores in Florida and buy aged Cubans either. You can order them online of course. So here are some online links for those Cabaiguans (I don't mind sharing sources):
> http://www.2guyssmokeshop.com/Cabaiguan+Cigars.html
> http://www.holts.com/category.html?id=201406&trail=86665
> http://www.famous-smoke.com/cigars/search/sr.cfm/st/1/bc/CBG
> http://www.coronacigar.com/products/Cabaiguan_Cigars_by_Pepin_Garcia_pid391_cid1.html
> http://www.leafandale.com/shop/index.php?cPath=21_186&osCsid=052a43fd726e9204c1b67515e401bbda
> http://www.***************.com/cabaiguan-cigar/
> Incidentally there are also 15 local stores in your state that carry them..
> http://tatuajecigars.com/retailersGMap.htm
> 
> Andrew has said time and time again he likes Cubans and Non Cubans alike and he was only looking to enlighten you that there are Cubans worth buying. I tried to enlighten you myself last year and sent you a Cabaiguan; but you seem too set on a cigar's origin and unable to see past guaranteed authentic band. You guessed the Cabaiguan to be a Davi. It didn't take 10 cigars to prove your broad statements wrong, it only took one.
> 
> You still strike me as a generous guy Fred, but you clearly don't have an open mind and will fight against reason to defend your mindset that black tobacco grown outside of Cuba isn't worth smoking.
> 
> I hope other BOTL's who read your broad statements in the future can, after also seeing this thread, realize the nature of your mindset. In that case the $300 of cigars Andrew sent you won't have been wasted.
> 
> Peace,
> -Matt-


TxMatt - not just my bitch, but also my idol. Great post man!


----------



## Da Klugs

Well can't say what others got out of this thread but for me....

Cabaiguan Petites 
1 BOX 50 Natural 4 1/2 x 32 @ xxx.xx

mmm 50 cabs!!

Man my Davidoff source might be hurting in the near future.


----------



## Sean9689

Da Klugs said:


> Well can't say what others got out of this thread but for me....
> 
> Cabaiguan Petites
> 1 BOX 50 Natural 4 1/2 x 32 @ xxx.xx
> 
> Man my Davidoff source might be hurting in the near future.


Oh great...where's that gonna go? :r



carbonbased_al said:


> TxMatt - not just my bitch, but also my idol. Great post man!






  :r


----------



## Sandman

Da Klugs said:


> Well can't say what others got out of this thread but for me....
> 
> Cabaiguan Petites
> 1 BOX 50 Natural 4 1/2 x 32 @ xxx.xx
> 
> mmm 50 cabs!!


Nice presentation! Unbanded, I think I might jump on the bandwagon here.


----------



## dayplanner

Sean9689 said:


> Oh great...where's that gonna go? :r
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :r


:r Leave your youtube favorites outta this Sean!


----------



## avid toker

Da Klugs said:


> Blind is hard so no shame for Fred if he misses a few. If you have never done one of these its hard to describe the confusion you feel. It's like when you sense motion but your really not moving. No historical placeholders for the flavor memories.


Made it through the 40+pages....phew. Dave's statement above holds true.
I took part in a blind cigar taste test but it also included a blind beverage tasting alongside as well. Talk about sensory overload! I enjoyed the concept and spirit of the bet and yes, it proved to be an entertaining read if nothing else.

Fred, kudos on your effort and here's looking forward to seeing how Moki makes out.


----------



## cryinlicks

Sandman said:


> Nice presentation! Unbanded, I think I might jump on the bandwagon here.


i picked up a cab, and they are a great 10-15 minute smoke.


----------



## Dgar

After reading this entire thread, including the all the commentary.

I am of the opinion based on Fredsters results, that a person cannot detect cuban tobbaco from non cuban tobacco on any consistent basis.

Thank you Moki.


----------



## wh0re

Hear, hear txmatt, I agree completely.


----------



## SR Mike

Harpo said:


> I like cigars.


:tpd:

Does a good cigar _only_ taste good depending on where it is from or who made it? I love Perdomo, but not all in their line. I do not like most Arturo Fuente's, but a couple are good. I am not a Pepin fan, but a couple of Tatuaje's were nice. I never really cared for Padron thousand series, but yesterday I was gifted one with age and it was very good. I have had a CC Rafael Gonzalez that was pure honey, a Cuaba was smooth and creamy, never harsh, but both of those are different flavors then the NCs and different from each other, and I enjoyed them _just as much_ as my favorite NCs.

One of my passions in cigars is finding a different cigar I can enjoy and not look to only one brand or country to do so. My collection has usually two-four of a particular cigar, I buy singles not boxes. I want to try something new, something with more then just a honey or cocoa, I like cinnamon and coffee flavors too. My tastes change throughout the day, I long for a full body smoke in the evening, but something lighter in the afternoon. I am not going to smoke a Camacho Corojo all day, I will mix it up.

Fredster and Moki, this thread was enjoyable to an extent and kudos for putting up with everything in between. What I learned is that in general, you both love cigars.

I look forward to trying a couple of these out, and happy smokin'!


----------



## Fredster

First Matt, I really don't care what you or anyone's opinion of me is.

I said I was done on this topic, but this feels like a character attack to me so I'll respond. I never said I can tell Cuban from NC "anywhere." When you are talking vintage or fresh cigars this is very difficult, if not impossible. When comparing apples to apples (say a 5 year old Cuban to a 5 year old NC) I have always been able to tell a huge difference. Clearly NC's have made some strides the last few years in getting closer.# 9 was a very tough call and could have fooled a lot of people. I already stated this.

On the Cabaiguan. You say I'm backpeddling? I can assure you I am not. I don't like rating cigars numerically and only did so at Mokis request. Check the first cigar review. Taste wise # 10 was the best. I clearly said this in the review before getting the verdict so saying I didn't is stupid. Go back and read it.The Cabaiguan was an 8 or so on taste. This is my 100% honest opinion. Don't belive me, I don't care. I rated the Cabaiguan better because it was a great tasting, better constructed cigar. I also knew #10 was Cuban and still rated it the way I did. It is possible the Cabaiguan is every bit as good as I rated it. It's also possible that I tasted some sweet flavors and my brain told me it was a Davidoff. I think you have to smoke more than one of something to really know for sure. So many things can influence taste. Mood, what you ate earlier, drinks,etc. Davidoffs can still be bought well under 100.00 ea. if you know where to look. If they are worth it or not is is a very subjective thing. The rarity of them plays a role in the price. I have smoked other vintage Cubans I liked better for less money for sure.

I smoked another one of these Cabaiguan's Moki sent me yesterday while golfing after I smoked an 07 Cohiba Sig 11 Tubos (cost me 8.00 on sale.) The Cabaiguan was still very good, but nearly as good as the test one, and I liked the Sig 11 better. Perhaps because I smoked the test one first thing in the morning? Maybe it didn't have enough strength to follow the Sig 11? I think this would be something I still would buy if it was in the 8.00-10.00 range. So clearly I have found ONE NC cigar I may be able to buy. The Davidoff Chat. cigars are med-full, but maybe they wouldn't taste as good after a fresh Sig11 either? I said my local shop does not have them so I still may not have found one I like enough to buy. You say they can be found online. Great. I have not looked, but I believe you. After smoking the one yesterday I'm not sure I want to. I think I need to try a couple more first. Cigars are a funny, fickle thing. Because I rated one NC excellent I'm not going to run out and start buying all kinds of NC cigars. I think for the most part it would be a waste of money. It has been in the past. Is there another NC out there that rated 9 or higher and tasted Cuban by everyone blind, or was this one out of hundreds I would not like? I said in my summary if there were others that rated this good blind by experienced guys, I'd be willing to try and I meant it.

The only other NC I rated good was the aged Fuente. I knew exactly what this was and still rated it an 8. Pretty closed minded huh.  Aged Opus X and other Fuentes can be good. They don't taste Cuban to me at all, but they are good. What I said was I can find similar aged Cubans I like as much or better for less $$$. You want to call this not being open-minded, whatever. I call it smoking what I like best for the best price.

BTW, I remember you raving about a 98 VR DA I sent you a while back (among many other cigars I enjoy daily). I have no agenda to prove and don't own stocks in Habanos. I just wondered if you were smoking some of the stuff I smoked daily when you said you liked NC's better. I did not ask you to post any reviews or blind taste tests, but you sure sent me a glowing review through PM didn't you? I could care less what you or anyone thinks is best. It's all about personal tastes. My personal tastes are what they are. I can buy VR DA, 99's or 01's for about 10.00ea that are just as good as the 98's. What 10.00ea or so NC do you smoke thats better than that? None of the NC's you sent me were something I would buy. I didn't call you closed minded though did I.

I still wish you all the best. Happy smoking whatever you smoke bro.



txmatt said:


> Fredster,
> 
> my opinion of your behavior in this test has dropped. You aren't being a sport. In my post yesterday I hoped to smooth things over by ignoring some things and offer up an olive branch. I had hoped to not see the likes of post #670.
> 
> Andrew had two stated goals from the start; even with attacks on his motives, and the choice of and authenticity of the cigars he sent, his goals were proven.
> 
> *Goal 1 - Disprove Statement "I can tell a Cuban cigar anywhere" *You believed the 07 Cabaiguan was a "_Davidoff Chateaue Margaux_" as your "best guess". You are backpeddling now and second guessing your rating saying it was construction that lead you to move the rating to a 9.5.. :BS:BS:BS
> 
> You bring up the fact that the leaf was probably aged since it was a special release. Cabaiguan has only been in existance as a blend/brand since 2005; perhaps they used some of the Pinar tobacco?? Was it the excellent construction that lead you to say that it provided an _"Exotic mix of sweet spices and cedar in the beginning. The spice lessens after an inch and the cigar becomes sweeter as it's smoked. Very complex and taste like aged tobacco. Long, sweet, earthy finish." _COME ON!! You said the Cabaiguan was _"Cuban for sure."_ and were wrong. You cannot tell a Cuban cigar anywhere.
> 
> *Goal 2 - Disprove Statement "There aren't any Non-Cuban cigars I like or consider worth buying"
> *The same cigar proves your statement wrong. The _*least expensive, most readily available*_ cigar in the bunch he sent you, the Cabaiguan disproves your statement. All of your positioning, semantics, attacks and backpeddling aside Fredster; even if it is an 8 instead of a 9.5 due to its great construction. I don't think you can get Davi's for less than $100 a stick. I am no expert on Davis, I don't even spend the dough on the Dominican ones. This $8 cigar scored a backpeddled 8 or an initial 9.5 rating on your scale. *Either rating can't be called "not worth buying" and either rating would only be given to a cigar you like*.
> 
> "_I can't go into a cigar store and find Cabaiguans or aged Padrons_" As far as I am aware of Fred you can't walk into any cigar stores in Florida and buy aged Cubans either. You can order them online of course. So here are some online links for those Cabaiguans (I don't mind sharing sources):
> http://www.2guyssmokeshop.com/Cabaiguan+Cigars.html
> http://www.holts.com/category.html?id=201406&trail=86665
> http://www.famous-smoke.com/cigars/search/sr.cfm/st/1/bc/CBG
> http://www.coronacigar.com/products/Cabaiguan_Cigars_by_Pepin_Garcia_pid391_cid1.html
> http://www.leafandale.com/shop/index.php?cPath=21_186&osCsid=052a43fd726e9204c1b67515e401bbda
> http://www.***************.com/cabaiguan-cigar/
> Incidentally there are also 15 local stores in your state that carry them..
> http://tatuajecigars.com/retailersGMap.htm
> 
> Andrew has said time and time again he likes Cubans and Non Cubans alike and he was only looking to enlighten you that there are Cubans worth buying. I tried to enlighten you myself last year and sent you a Cabaiguan; but you seem too set on a cigar's origin and unable to see past guaranteed authentic band. You guessed the Cabaiguan to be a Davi. It didn't take 10 cigars to prove your broad statements wrong, it only took one.
> 
> You still strike me as a generous guy Fred, but you clearly don't have an open mind and will fight against reason to defend your mindset that black tobacco grown outside of Cuba isn't worth smoking.
> 
> I hope other BOTL's who read your broad statements in the future can, after also seeing this thread, realize the nature of your mindset. In that case the $300 of cigars Andrew sent you won't have been wasted.
> 
> Peace,
> -Matt-


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## montecristo#2

Da Klugs said:


> Well can't say what others got out of this thread but for me....
> 
> Cabaiguan Petites
> 1 BOX 50 Natural 4 1/2 x 32 @ xxx.xx
> 
> mmm 50 cabs!!


:r :r :r

Just let me know if you want to split a box! :r

Seriously, these are pretty good, a little mild but very nice. Although, for such a small cigar they are a little pricey.


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## txmatt

I tried not to state opinions of you, but of your behavior in this test. You have made an impression on me that you are unwilling to give Non-Cuban cigars a fair shake. I don't know you Fred though I do know you are generous to the jungle and I respect that.

I have smoked 3 of the 5 cigars you sent me and all were enjoyable. The aged VR DA was an incredible smoking experience. I liked the Boli PC and the RASS quite well. I am looking forward to the other two; the Charlotte as it will be my first and the RASCC as you told me they are a different animal when aged and I had found the two (not aged) ones I have smoked vastly overrated.

I have never said to you or anyone else that I like NCs better. Like Andrew I enjoy smoking Cubans and Non-Cubans alike. I smoked 4 cigars while herfing with James and Tony Thursday night. Two were Cuban and two were not; all were great cigars.

Happy smoking to you as well bud! :tu
-Matt-



Fredster said:


> First Matt, I really don't care what you or anyone's opinion of me is.
> 
> BTW, I remember you raving about a 98 VR DA I sent you a while back (among many other cigars I enjoy daily). I have no agenda to prove and don't own stocks in Habanos. I just wondered if you were smoking some of the stuff I smoked daily when you said you liked NC's better. I did not ask you to post any reviews or blind taste tests, but you sure sent me a glowing review through PM didn't you? I could care less what you or anyone thinks is best. It's all about personal tastes. My personal tastes are what they are. I can buy VR DA, 99's or 01's for about 10.00ea that are just as good as the 98's. What 10.00ea or so NC do you smoke thats better than that? None of the NC's you sent me were something I would buy. I didn't call you closed minded though did I.
> 
> I still wish you all the best. Happy smoking whatever you smoke bro.


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## BigVito

IceHog03 said:


> blah blah blah


:tpd:


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## moki

txmatt said:


> Andrew has said time and time again he likes Cubans and Non Cubans alike and he was only looking to enlighten you that there are Cubans worth buying.
> 
> I have never said to you or anyone else that I like NCs better. Like Andrew I enjoy smoking Cubans and Non-Cubans alike. I smoked 4 cigars while herfing with James and Tony Thursday night. Two were Cuban and two were not; all were great cigars.


You, sir, have offended me for the last time.

Nothing but Cuban cigars, French wine, Italian cheese, Belgian beer, Kona Peaberry coffee, and New Guinean cocoa shall ever gain entry through my velvet palate!

The rest is offal flotsam, cast aside for the porcine-like masses to ignorantly gorge themselves upon!


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## BigVito

moki said:


> You, sir, have offended me for the last time.
> 
> Nothing but Cuban cigars, French wine, Italian cheese, Belgian beer, Kona Peaberry coffee, and New Guinean cocoa shall ever gain entry through my velvet palate!
> 
> The rest is offal flotsam, cast aside for the porcine-like masses to ignorantly gorge themselves upon!


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## moki

Fredster said:


> The line between Cuban and NC is still pretty clear to me overall.


Sigh. I find that a singularly stunning statement to make, given the trouble you had with this test, but honestly, it's what I expected you to say.

What we have here, folks, is a textbook case of cognitive dissonance:

_*Cognitive dissonance* is a psychological state that describes the uncomfortable feeling between what one holds to be true and what one knows to be true. Similar to ambivalence, the term cognitive dissonance describes conflicting thoughts or beliefs (cognitions) that occur at the same time, or when engaged in behaviors that conflict with one's beliefs. In academic literature, the term refers to attempts to reduce the discomfort of conflicting thoughts, by performing actions that are opposite to one's beliefs.

*In simple terms, it can be the filtering of information that conflicts with what one already believes, in an effort to ignore that information and reinforce one's beliefs.* In detailed terms, it is the perception of incompatibility between two cognitions, where "cognition" is defined as any element of knowledge, including attitude, emotion, belief, or behavior. The theory of cognitive dissonance states that contradicting cognitions serve as a driving force that compels the mind to acquire or invent new thoughts or beliefs, or to modify existing beliefs, so as to reduce the amount of dissonance (conflict) between cognitions. Experiments have attempted to quantify this hypothetical drive. Some of these have examined how beliefs often change to match behavior when beliefs and behavior are in conflict.

Maintaining conflicting principles (e.g. logically incompatible beliefs) or rejecting reasonable behavior to avoid conflict can be increasingly maladaptive (non-beneficial) as the gap being bridged widens, and popular usage tends to stress the maladaptive aspect. *Cognitive dissonance is often associated with the tendency for people to resist information that they don't want to think about, because if they did it would create cognitive dissonance, and perhaps require them to act in ways that depart from their comfortable habits.* They usually have at least partial awareness of the information, without having moved to full acceptance of it, and are thus in a state of denial about it. This "irrational inability to incorporate rational information" is perhaps the most common perception of cognitive dissonance, and this or another example of extreme maladaption would appear to be underlying many conceptions of the term in popular usage._



> I should have known the Monte Tubos and the Cohiba Reserva. I said everything pointed to Cuban on both. I even nailed the taste profile perfectly on both.


...but you didn't, you got them wrong. One could use the same logic, and say that you "nailed" the Cuban profile on the Tatuaje Maravilla, but yet got lucky and guessed it right.



> This is why I don't buy I had a 50/50 chance.


How can a true/false test not be a 50/50 chance (in the long run)? But you're right, given your years of experience, and statements, you should have gotten 10/10 right. What happened?



> I'm glad Moki said I don't owe him the $100.00. Taking into consideration the Taboada, and I sent him 13 excellent cigars that cost me over 100.00, it would have been pretty lame.


sigh. You're welcome.


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## lenguamor

mash said:


> I think we all respect the mods, but the reality is there are some negative perceptions about this test that were entirely predictable, and at least partly avoidable. I suggested earlier in this thread that Moki allow someone neutral to select the cigars. I believe he has a bias against Cuban cigars regardless of what he says, and I suspect I am not alone. I also think that he personalizes these tests, and then down the read he appears surprised and hurt that people question him.
> If he had allowed someone else to choose the sticks, there would be a greater perception of neutrality, and the tone of this thread would be different. That would have also removed him from the center of the test which would have made this less competitive. The focus really would have been on the cigars. He chose not to go that route.
> This was all about Fred differentiating Cuban vs. Non-Cuban, Moki continually says how hard this is, then goes on to suggest that if Fred did well it would be purely memorization of taste. As if he could pick apart the hundreds of potential Cuban and Non-Cuban regular production cigars that could have been included here, smoking them at a rate of 2-3 per day.
> 
> I may have been born at night, but it wasn't last night.


This might be the best post in the thread.

I love this idea and applaud Moki and Fredster for throwing down, and it is inherently an interesting contest.

But it pissed me off a little (just a little...  ) that I had to slog through 240+ posts to get to the first review. And that since, I've had to slog through post after post attacking the integrity of the test, the product, and Moki.

It could be avoided next time by not beginning the the tread until the first review is ready, then describe the parameters, participants and how results will be posted and proceed from there.

Maybe have it be a closed sticky thread, with its own discussion thread in the body of the forum. That would keep the meat from having to touch the potatoes on the plate.

Or the potato-heads.


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## lenguamor

By the way, whatever the format, I'm down for being the taster in the next round. :ss

I smoke mostly product made within the last 5 years, with enough vintage thrown in to be smart enough to know that I don't know ****.

But I'll bet you that unless someone marries flavors, I can tell a Cuban from a non-Cuban, if not the provenance.


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## avid toker

Excellent points mash and lenguamor.....couldn't agree more that this was far from a controlled experiment. In any regard, I'd be interested in seeing an experiment where current production (non-vintage) NC's and CC's are compared :bl


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## BigVito

avid toker said:


> Excellent points mash and lenguamor.....couldn't agree more that this was far from a controlled experiment. In any regard, I'd be interested in seeing an experiment where current production (non-vintage) NC's and CC's are compared :bl


start a thread doing it :tu


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## floydpink

and pick a good sport to participate!! Funny how many armchair quarterbacks come out during the test and have all kinds of great ideas on how others should pick THEIR cigars to send.


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## Fredster

Thanks for that brilliant analysis of my disorder professor Monki.:BS:BS

What we have here, folks, is a smug, arrogant indidvidual who is so desparate to prove he's right he'll switch bands on cigars and send fake Taboadas. What you were trying to do here with the cigar choices was very obvious to everyone that is experienced and has a brain. That was a direct quote via PM to me from one of the most experienced and respected guys here at C/S.

You said if I got 7 out of 10 you would concede I was able to differentiate. Well, I got 6 even with the light green,veiny,box pressed "Taboada", but I'm attacked for saying the line is still pretty clear overall to me?

I said I was done here and posted my final thoughts. I didn't take any more shots at you or your final long winded over analysis did I?

You sir are going on my ignore list. I've had just about all of you I can take.

I'm glad some people were able to get some info and entertainment out of this thread. I apologize for all of the other BS and I'm done on the subject.



moki said:


> Sigh. I find that a singularly stunning statement to make, given the trouble you had with this test, but honestly, it's what I expected you to say.
> 
> What we have here, folks, is a textbook case of cognitive dissonance:
> 
> _*Cognitive dissonance* is a psychological state that describes the uncomfortable feeling between what one holds to be true and what one knows to be true. Similar to ambivalence, the term cognitive dissonance describes conflicting thoughts or beliefs (cognitions) that occur at the same time, or when engaged in behaviors that conflict with one's beliefs. In academic literature, the term refers to attempts to reduce the discomfort of conflicting thoughts, by performing actions that are opposite to one's beliefs.
> 
> *In simple terms, it can be the filtering of information that conflicts with what one already believes, in an effort to ignore that information and reinforce one's beliefs.* In detailed terms, it is the perception of incompatibility between two cognitions, where "cognition" is defined as any element of knowledge, including attitude, emotion, belief, or behavior. The theory of cognitive dissonance states that contradicting cognitions serve as a driving force that compels the mind to acquire or invent new thoughts or beliefs, or to modify existing beliefs, so as to reduce the amount of dissonance (conflict) between cognitions. Experiments have attempted to quantify this hypothetical drive. Some of these have examined how beliefs often change to match behavior when beliefs and behavior are in conflict.
> 
> Maintaining conflicting principles (e.g. logically incompatible beliefs) or rejecting reasonable behavior to avoid conflict can be increasingly maladaptive (non-beneficial) as the gap being bridged widens, and popular usage tends to stress the maladaptive aspect. *Cognitive dissonance is often associated with the tendency for people to resist information that they don't want to think about, because if they did it would create cognitive dissonance, and perhaps require them to act in ways that depart from their comfortable habits.* They usually have at least partial awareness of the information, without having moved to full acceptance of it, and are thus in a state of denial about it. This "irrational inability to incorporate rational information" is perhaps the most common perception of cognitive dissonance, and this or another example of extreme maladaption would appear to be underlying many conceptions of the term in popular usage._
> 
> ...but you didn't, you got them wrong. One could use the same logic, and say that you "nailed" the Cuban profile on the Tatuaje Maravilla, but yet got lucky and guessed it right.
> 
> How can a true/false test not be a 50/50 chance (in the long run)? But you're right, given your years of experience, and statements, you should have gotten 10/10 right. What happened?
> 
> sigh. You're welcome.


----------



## Fredster

avid toker said:


> Excellent points mash and lenguamor.....couldn't agree more that this was far from a controlled experiment. In any regard, I'd be interested in seeing an experiment where current production (non-vintage) NC's and CC's are compared :bl


That would make too much sense and wouldn't have an agenda though. :r


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## BigVito

floydpink said:


> and pick a good sport to participate!! Funny how many armchair quarterbacks come out during the test and have all kinds of great ideas on how others should pick THEIR cigars to send.


:r simply amazing.


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## PadronMe

I'm glad this thread was unlocked. :hn


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## duhman

PadronMe said:


> I'm glad this thread was unlocked. :hn


:r :tg


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## Stonefox

This started out to be an interesting and informative thread but it has turned into something else:BS Sad Sad Sad Where is the sad smilie?


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## pbrennan10

Fredster said:


> What we have here, folks, is a smug, arrogant individual who is so desperate to prove he's right.


I found this clause true.


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## wh0re

Fredster said:


> What we have here, folks, is a smug, arrogant indidvidual


I would say that describes you pretty well.


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## Da Klugs

Sigh! Two successful competitive guys with strong opinions on two sides of an issue is always a recipe for a good read. Good thing it's not a business dispute.. your respective lawyers would already be looking with gleeful anticipation at the new Lexus catalog. :ss

This was a classic thread from a variety of standpoints. Agree/disagree, find profound meaning, call foul, few threads here have had as much to offer. Thanks to both Andrew and Fred for providing such an insight into the minds and hearts of passionate smokers. You guys put it all out there and it provided entertainment, thought provoking conversation and more than a bit of controversy.

Speaking for everyone here.. thanks to both of you for letting us all share in this.


----------

