# Cuban Bureaucracy and USA Politics



## Scardinoz

There has been a lot of discussion lately over what products are exported from the USA to Cuba and I think most of us feel that opening up trade with Cuba will be good for the cigar industry as a whole.

I found this article interesting.

No Cigar, But Close? - The Lane Report - August 2010

One thing that caught my eye was that a lot of American companies said that doing business with Cuba fell apart when it got to the point of working with Alimport, Cuba's goods importation authority.

On the other hand, is it reasonable for us to expect Cuba to say, "Oh, yes, we are eager to purchase American goods" when America refuses to purchase Cuban goods?

And what of the lobbyists?


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## thegoldenmackid

I don't believe it to be necessarily a good thing.

We've had plenty of threads on the merits of that though...


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## Johnny Rock

Scardinoz said:


> There has been a lot of discussion lately over what products are exported from the USA to Cuba and I think most of us feel that opening up trade with Cuba will be good for the cigar industry as a whole.
> 
> I found this article interesting.
> 
> No Cigar, But Close? - The Lane Report - August 2010
> 
> One thing that caught my eye was that a lot of American companies said that doing business with Cuba fell apart when it got to the point of working with Alimport, Cuba's goods importation authority.
> 
> On the other hand, is it reasonable for us to expect Cuba to say, "Oh, yes, we are eager to purchase American goods" when America refuses to purchase Cuban goods?
> 
> And what of the lobbyists?


Makes you wonder how corrupt Cuba's importation authority is, when it is reported that many of the "fake" Cuban cigars on the market actually come from the ISOM.


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## Scardinoz

Johnny Rock said:


> Makes you wonder how corrupt Cuba's importation authority is, when it is reported that many of the "fake" Cuban cigars on the market actually come from the ISOM.


I haven't heard that. Link?

However, I can see how their importation authority would not want to cooperate with USA businesses. The so-called humanitarian reasons for allowing agricultural and other sales to Cuba are a cover up for the USA government and the lobbyists sponsoring it wanting to make a dime off of Cuba while maintaining an embargo against it.


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## ShortyStogie

Will read the article and comment... but very interesting topic.

JohnnyRock, I'd really like to see where they said that most fakes originate from Cuba. From what I've heard, they are corrupt as heck, but respect the cigar exports cause that's their major source of income. 

-Fauzi


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## Mante

Reading that article, the thing I find striking is that is basically a bunch of politicians and business owners in industries that are unimportant to Cuba having a whine because they cannot make money. I see very little reasoning on why their business would be good for the people of Cuba.

As far as the requirement that all transactions are paid for in full beforehand, is that not just a ploy to bleed the US currency back out of Cuba since no US bank is allowed to be involved? Believe it or not, the biggest Cuban industry is tourism & the US currency, from Europe especially. If Cuba needs the trade then they will allow it, like any country.

On the funny side : Sell tobacco to Cubans? I should be able to sell Ice to the Eskimo's then! ROTFLMAO.


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## Johnny Rock

ShortyStogie said:


> Will read the article and comment... but very interesting topic.
> 
> JohnnyRock, I'd really like to see where they said that most fakes originate from Cuba. From what I've heard, they are corrupt as heck, but respect the cigar exports cause that's their major source of income.
> 
> -Fauzi


I did not say _most_, I said _many._

Fake Cuban Cigars - Counterfeit Cigars and Fake Cohiba


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## asmartbull

According to people that work in the State department,
Cuba is mostly interested in commodities such as wheat, grain and other agricultural products. They currently have to to Canada and a cpl select islands for such products, which makes it very expensive
for the country. They currently have little desire for free trade and government officials still see the US as a threat totheir power and way of life. Little concern goes to their "common folk".

US officials also says that there are major issues that has to be resolved on our side.

Short Version: There is very little motivation on both sides to change current policy..


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## Scardinoz

Johnny Rock said:


> I did not say _most_, I said _many._
> 
> Fake Cuban Cigars - Counterfeit Cigars and Fake Cohiba


I did read that. Very interesting. I'm willing to bet scraps from the finer factories sometimes make their way onto the street, too.


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## TonyBrooklyn

The whole topic just :bored: the **** out of me. Cuban American politics is about as interesting as watching grass grow IMHO. This is the bottom line Castro's regime would not be in power unless he was the people's choice. Capitalism does not work in Cuba. I have heard this from many Cuban Americans. They are so jealous of each other. They would rather all starve than see someone with more. They are for the most part all content to have the same thing nothing. They hated Batista for this reason, some had to much while others had nothing. You can criticize Castro for taking the farms and tobacco industry all you want. But the reality is that's what the people wanted.op2:


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## PoohBore

Why would they want to do business with the USA when they have a good relationship with china and Canada. Europe also provides a good deal of tourism income. Can't see the advantage personally except car parts maybe . Even their oil is too high in sulphor to be of interest to uncle Sam.


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## JGD

PoohBore said:


> Why would they want to do business with the USA when they have a good relationship with china and Canada. Europe also provides a good deal of tourism income. Can't see the advantage personally except car parts maybe . Even their oil is too high in sulphor to be of interest to uncle Sam.


Because it is likely they will get MANY more tourists if Americans could go.


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## Bunker

jadeg001 said:


> Because it is likely they will get MANY more *tourists* if Americans could go.


And not just American tourists. I don't know if this is still the case but I was told years ago by some non-us friends that if they went to cuba on holiday that could not get a visa to come to the usa for a set amount of time after visiting cuba


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## PoohBore

Your passport doesn't get stamped so no record of your visit, so no problems going anywhere. I don't know whether they could cope with a massive influx of tourists. Certainly where I've stayedthey haven't been desperate for American tourists in fact you are the butt of lots of jokes.


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## JGD

PoohBore said:


> I don't know whether they could cope with a massive influx of tourists.


This is probably true. And, on top of that it is said that American tourists will generally have a hard time because the type of accommodations/ customer service in Cuba is vastly different than what has come to be "expected" in America.


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## TonyBrooklyn

jadeg001 said:


> This is probably true. And, on top of that it is said that American tourists will generally have a hard time because the type of accommodations/ customer service in Cuba is vastly different than what has come to be "expected" in America.


True but people adjust i have many Canadian and European friends that travel to Cuba. While the conditions food menu is not always top notch. I seldom hear complaints people love the beaches cigars and Rum. Its not for everyone mind you but many enjoy its quaintness.


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## tpharkman

PoohBore said:


> Your passport doesn't get stamped so no record of your visit, so no problems going anywhere. I don't know whether they could cope with a massive influx of tourists. Certainly where I've stayedthey haven't been desperate for American tourists in fact you are the butt of lots of jokes.


Love us, hate us, or be disgusted by us, Americans bring with them dollar bills and lavish spending habits. People love to bash the American tourist but unlike American Express I have always heard and directly experienced that most of them will glady accept cash.

As far as oil goes, Uncle Sam would not need Cuba's oil even if it wasn't full of sulphur. We have plenty of our own that we just can't get to because of certain local political conditions. I will now  myself.


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## Scardinoz

tpharkman said:


> I will now  myself.


There is more than one way to read this statement.


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## TonyBrooklyn

Bottom line the embargo as it was originally intended serves no useful purpose. Every year the U.N votes to remove it. Only two countries vote not to. The United States and Israel. Things that make you go Hmmmmmmmmm!


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## tpharkman

Scardinoz said:


> There is more than one way to read this statement.


I still haven't mastered the subtle use of the smiley....lol!!


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## TonyBrooklyn

You know it really doesn't bother me that the Cubans are full of crap in all of this. What bothers me is that America is full of crap in all of this. I mean we trade with China Vietnam Libya etc etc etc. Countries that have way worse human rights issues. Countries we have gone to war with. Just the other day i take my teenage daughter shopping she wants these Miley Cyrus clothes. They are made in Vietnam i mean come on hello i have many friends that either died in that war. Or came home good for nothing because of it. Forgive and forget is the term i am looking for here. What makes the Cuban conflict any different.:lever:


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## AJ FERNANDEZ FAN

Cuban cigars SUCK unless you age them for years!!!! Funk Cuba!!!!! Outside cigars they have nothing good to offer!!!!!


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## JGD

AJ FERNANDEZ FAN said:


> Cuban cigars SUCK unless you age them for years!!!! Funk Cuba!!!!! Outside cigars they have nothing good to offer!!!!!


I disagree with everything you have said, and so will many others.


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## AJ FERNANDEZ FAN

jadeg001 said:


> I disagree with everything you have said, and so will many others.


Why do you disagree???????


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## Scardinoz

AJ FERNANDEZ FAN said:


> Cuban cigars SUCK unless you age them for years!!!!


Without meaning to go off topic, my favorite, the Montecristo Tubo, is good right off the truck. Many others are, as well. The non-Cuban cigars need to be aged, as well, but they are typically aged before you buy them and overpriced (see "You don't get what you pay for") as a result. This is all generally speaking.

It seems, from the article I linked to in the original post, that the Cuban government is not interested in one-way trade. I don't blame them. The USA policy is less about providing the impoverished people with much needed goods than it is about making turning a buck.


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## JGD

AJ FERNANDEZ FAN said:


> Why do you disagree???????


I'll break it down for you:



AJ FERNANDEZ FAN said:


> Cuban cigars SUCK unless you age them for years!!!!


There are quite a few types of Cuban cigars that are great right off the truck, RASCC being an example of one. The fact of the matter is that Cuban cigars benefit with age much more than Non-Cuban cigars. This does not mean that the NEED age or that the suck without age.



AJ FERNANDEZ FAN said:


> Outside cigars they have nothing good to offer!!!!!


Outside of cigars Cuba offers amazing beaches, a great style of unique cuisine, amazing music, beautiful architecture, some of the best health care in the world, and the list continues. Your statement simply shows that you don't know much about Cuba as a country or Cuban culture.

Read up on Cuba, and you will see why many people across the work visit there every year.


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## AJ FERNANDEZ FAN

The hype with CC are so over-rated!!!!! If you like aging cigars ok but the hype is stupid!!!!!


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## JGD

AJ FERNANDEZ FAN said:


> The hype with CC are so over-rated!!!!! If you like aging cigars ok but the hype is stupid!!!!!


How many have you smoked (that you know for a fact were real)? And which ones?


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## AJ FERNANDEZ FAN

jadeg001 said:


> How many have you smoked (that you know for a fact were real)? And which ones?


I cant smoke them in the United States.


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## AJ FERNANDEZ FAN

jadeg001 said:


> Outside of cigars Cuba offers amazing beaches,


So does Hawaii!!!!!


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## JGD

AJ FERNANDEZ FAN said:


> I have smoked enough while Im down in Atlantis and Im firm with saying Cubans are only good if you age them!!!!!! Since Im an American I could care less about there health care!!!! Yes there are GREAT cubans right off the truck but the HYPE is STUPID!!!!


This has already gone way off topic, so I'll end my side of the discussion with this... it's no wonder that you think they are over rated if you have only had them after pay an arm and a leg at Atlantis, and the health care statement was simply in response to what you said earlier. There is a vast difference between what you care about and everything a country can offer.

I'll see you in about 70 days over on the Cuban Cigars threads asking for advice haha!


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## AJ FERNANDEZ FAN

jadeg001 said:


> it's no wonder that you think they are over rated if you have only had them after pay an arm and a leg at Atlantis


Im friends with the owner so I dont pay for my Cubans......Thank God!!!!!! Im firm with saying Cuban Cigars SUCK unless you age them!!!!!!!!


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## Scardinoz

AJ FERNANDEZ FAN said:


> Im firm with saying Cuban Cigars SUCK unless you age them!!!!!!!!


Agreed. I much prefer Victor Sinclairs.

And the political agenda is bogus.


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## tpharkman

It has probably already been said here or at least insinuated but the reason we don't drop the embargo is because of power. Power in this country is gained through politics and political power is decided by who wins and loses come election time.

Most of us know that Florida is an incredibly important state when it comes to who wins the presidency. Their electoral votes are coveted as if they were water in the desert. Besides the Cuban population in Florida I am not aware of any more influential group of nationals that lobby against the United States trading with their ex-country (not sure if that is the correct verbage but its late and the vino is flowing). What I am trying to say is that there is not a group of Vietnamese or Chinese or any other nationality that I am aware of that can swing the entire electoral vote of any state like the Cuban vote is estimated to be able to do in Florida.

As small-minded and skilled at tunnel vision as most politicians can be there isn't a single one of them that doesn't recognize the national importance of the Florida vote. If this were not true the embargo would have went out with big hair and tight-rolled jeans. 

Our politicians don't care about human rights because if they did we would not already have lost almost all of our rights to smoke where we please. They care about votes and staying in power and for now that carnal desire will keep this embargo firmly in place.


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## Mante

jadeg001 said:


> I disagree with everything you have said, and so will many others.


I'm one of the many others. Cuba has a rich history & no, not all cuban cigars need years to smoke great. That statement could be a whole thread on it's own. Pretty harsh statement Robert if you are not going to give us your reasoning. In reality the question could be asked in reverse, except for cheaper food, what has America really got to offer Cuba?


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## tpharkman

Tashaz said:


> In reality the question could be asked in reverse, except for cheaper food, what has America really got to offer Cuba?


Me in a speedo on holiday!!!opcorn::shocked:


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## tpharkman

Tashaz said:


> In reality the question could be asked in reverse, except for cheaper food, what has America really got to offer Cuba?


I forgot one...I heard Obama's Chevy Volt is supposed to beat the Edsels they have been driving for the last 50 years by a couple of mpg.:fencing:


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## Mante

tpharkman said:


> Me in a speedo on holiday!!!opcorn::shocked:


ROTFLMAO. Oh look out the gorgeous Cuban ladies! _NOT!_ J/K :boink:uke: <(Would be the same result if I did it)

Yeah but the Edsels are all running on high sulphur diesel now so no fuel leaks at least.


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## AJ FERNANDEZ FAN

Tashaz said:


> Pretty harsh statement Robert if you are not going to give us your reasoning.


What reasoning are you looking for????? IMO Cuban cigars I have smoked right out of the box SUCKED....i Dont care about food cause this aint the Food Chanel Network...Its about the Smokes!!!! I already said there are good cuban smokes right off the truck but most Cuban smokes need age on them its just the way they roll!!!! The govt dosent give them time to age...sorry to tell ya that but thats just the way it is!!!!!! IMO Cuban SUCK.....PERIOD unless you put some age on them!!!!!!


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## Mante

AJ FERNANDEZ FAN said:


> What reasoning are you looking for????? IMO Cuban cigars I have smoked right out of the box SUCKED....i Dont care about food cause this aint the Food Chanel Network...Its about the Smokes!!!! I already said there are good cuban smokes right off the truck but most Cuban smokes need age on them its just the way they roll!!!! The govt dosent give them time to age...sorry to tell ya that but thats just the way it is!!!!!! IMO Cuban SUCK.....PERIOD unless you put some age on them!!!!!!


As far as the cigars, your welcome to your opinion, whether I disagree with it or not is irrelevant. What I was referring to was the whole "F*cK Cuba!" thing. What has made you so judgemental of them as a country that you would tell a whole population they have nothing to offer and to go screw themselves?


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## tpharkman

Warren--

I don't know anything about that darn sulphuric diesel but there was a rumor that the Russians were not bringing missiles to Cuba at all. They were Deloreans with Flux Capacitors which were going to be powered by the treasured Pelo de Oro leaf that the Kennedys loved so much and they would have nothing of it.

I have to stop now. I have posted five times today already and I am :dizzy:. I can't even make it to the leaderboard without calling it a day...lol!!


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## AJ FERNANDEZ FAN

Tashaz said:


> What I was referring to was the whole "F*cK Cuba!" thing. What has made you so judgemental of them as a country that you would tell a whole population they have nothing to offer and to go screw themselves?


As an American they dont have anything to offer me!!!!!!! I never told anyone to go screw themselves!!!! The Cuban Cigar industry SUCKS!!!!! The Hype is STUPID!!!! YES there are great Cuban cigars right off the truck but thats the same with other country's!!! My point is Cuban Cigars in general NEED AGE ON THEM!!!!!!!!!! So I stand my ground.........FUNK CUBAN HYPE!!!!!!!!!


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## Mante

AJ FERNANDEZ FAN said:


> As an American they dont have anything to offer me!!!!!!! I never told anyone to go screw themselves!!!! The Cuban Cigar industry SUCKS!!!!! The Hype is STUPID!!!! YES there are great Cuban cigars right off the truck but thats the same with other country's!!! My point is Cuban Cigars in general NEED AGE ON THEM!!!!!!!!!! So I stand my ground.........FUNK CUBAN HYPE!!!!!!!!!





> Cuban cigars SUCK unless you age them for years!!!!* Funk Cuba!!!!! *Outside cigars they have nothing good to offer!!!!!


 Fair enough, you dont like Cuban cigars I noticed. It was not what you stated though, that is my point.


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## Mante

tpharkman said:


> Warren--
> 
> I don't know anything about that darn sulphuric diesel but there was a rumor that the Russians were not bringing missiles to Cuba at all. They were Deloreans with Flux Capacitors which were going to be powered by the treasured Pelo de Oro leaf that the Kennedys loved so much and they would have nothing of it.
> 
> I have to stop now. I have posted five times today already and I am :dizzy:. I can't even make it to the leaderboard without calling it a day...lol!!


I always thought the Deloreans were powered by Cuban Rum & Salsa dresses?


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## smelvis

I almost went to Cuba a few years ago but didn't because of health issues, I would love to go as a vacation destination. I have a few friends that have been and a couple that go regularly from the US via Caanada.

I don't understand the politics of why it is still in place but I thought I heard Cuban Americans were against it and is that the Florida vote or a part of it you are talking about? 

I will go one day regardless of the embargo, opcorn:


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## TonyBrooklyn

tpharkman said:


> It has probably already been said here or at least insinuated but the reason we don't drop the embargo is because of power. Power in this country is gained through politics and political power is decided by who wins and loses come election time.
> 
> Most of us know that Florida is an incredibly important state when it comes to who wins the presidency. Their electoral votes are coveted as if they were water in the desert. Besides the Cuban population in Florida I am not aware of any more influential group of nationals that lobby against the United States trading with their ex-country (not sure if that is the correct verbage but its late and the vino is flowing). What I am trying to say is that there is not a group of Vietnamese or Chinese or any other nationality that I am aware of that can swing the entire electoral vote of any state like the Cuban vote is estimated to be able to do in Florida.
> 
> As small-minded and skilled at tunnel vision as most politicians can be there isn't a single one of them that doesn't recognize the national importance of the Florida vote. If this were not true the embargo would have went out with big hair and tight-rolled jeans.
> 
> Our politicians don't care about human rights because if they did we would not already have lost almost all of our rights to smoke where we please. They care about votes and staying in power and for now that carnal desire will keep this embargo firmly in place.


I love big hair and tight rolled jeans.:smoke:


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## tpharkman

TonyBrooklyn said:


> I love big hair and tight rolled jeans.:smoke:


I thought you liked big bodacious b**bs and cutoff jeans...lol!!


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## Habanolover

From what I can tell this discussion started out about the embargo. It really had nothing to do with cigars but the embargo in general. Let's keep it on topic. If you want to discuss Cuban cigars and whether they are good or not then start a discussion in the proper forum, otherwise let's keep this one about the embargo.

Thanks


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## TonyBrooklyn

smelvis said:


> I almost went to Cuba a few years ago but didn't because of health issues
> 
> I will go one day regardless of the embargo, opcorn:


I wouldn't let that stop you Dave. From what i have heard Cuban medicine is just as good as anywhere else in the world. As far as care i had a friend that broke his leg while there. The ride to a medical facility x rays resetting the leg care afterward. Cost him a whopping $125 dollars cash. Its not like you can use your blue cross blue shield card. But it won't send you to the poor house either.:lever:


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## Johnny Rock

I'm pretty sure JFK enacted the embargo because not only Cuban Nationals, but US citizens property was seized during the "Nationalization" of Cuba. Then the alignment of the Castro regime with the Soviet Union, followed by the threat of nuclear war, i.e. Cuban Missle Crisis.

Above referenced for thread continuity.



TonyBrooklyn said:


> Cost him a whopping $125 dollars cash. Its not like you can use your blue cross blue shield card.But it won't send you to the poor house either.


The really amazing thing Tony, is that is the way it used to be here. Right here in the good old USA. My parents never had health insurance. We need to get back to those ways.

Sorry for the digression


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## TonyBrooklyn

Johnny Rock said:


> I'm pretty sure JFK enacted the embargo because not only Cuban Nationals, but US citizens property was seized during the "Nationalization" of Cuba. Then the alignment of the Castro regime with the Soviet Union, followed by the threat of nuclear war, i.e. Cuban Missle Crisis.
> 
> Above referenced for thread continuity.
> 
> The really amazing thing Tony, is that is the way it used to be here. Right here in the good old USA. My parents never had health insurance. We need to get back to those ways.
> 
> Sorry for the digression


Well for what ever reasons the embargo was instated. As it was originally intended it serves no useful purpose. Castro has out lived many U.S presidents. His brother sits in the wings waiting to accept full leadership. I just think it is a waste of time the Cuban people are suffering because of it. The trade would help the farmers here in the U.S That is less of our tax dollars that would have to be spent to subsidize their existence. They are going to drill for oil right off the coast of Cuba. That has to be supervised , many European countries and China are already in on that. America needs to rethink the policies of the past. Stimulate her economy and get back on her feet. Time to bury the hatchet as they say. As far as the health care issue i agree 100%. We needed stitches or something taken out of our eye etc etc etc. Mom sent us to the neighborhood pharmacist. He patched you up gave you a little Breyers ice cream cup. The whole thing cost a couple of dollars. Rarely did we see the inside of a doctors office. I miss those simpler times. Unfortunatly there is no going back for America. And sadly it or rather she will never be the same. To quote you my friend "Sorry for the digression"
opcorn:


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## smelvis

TonyBrooklyn said:


> I wouldn't let that stop you Dave. From what i have heard Cuban medicine is just as good as anywhere else in the world. As far as care i had a friend that broke his leg while there. The ride to a medical facility x rays resetting the leg care afterward. Cost him a whopping $125 dollars cash. Its not like you can use your blue cross blue shield card. But it won't send you to the poor house either.:lever:


Wasn't willing to risk what I didn't know for sure!! I did however find out in person about the health care in CR the public hospital told me to go back to my hotel and drink lots of water with a temp of 103.

A GF took me to the private hospital and I had several Docs, IV fluids, blood work and treatment for food poisening, spent around 6 hours and cost $350 cash.

Go Figure! better service than I have ever had here for the price of an aspirin in the US LOL


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## TonyBrooklyn

I hear ya bro i here ya.
Glad it all worked out.


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## smelvis

TonyBrooklyn said:


> I hear ya bro i here ya.
> Glad it all worked out.


Glad she was an honest girl, I was delirious for a couple days and banging into walls a day after that and she stayed with me almost the whole time. Boy did she get a tip a very big tip.

For the rookies GF's in third world Countries at least CR steal anything not locked up. like you eat lunch it's so normal you get use to it and lock stuff up, but it's still funny LOL


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## GentlemanJester

smelvis said:


> I almost went to Cuba a few years ago but didn't because of health issues, I would love to go as a vacation destination. I have a few friends that have been and a couple that go regularly from the US via Caanada.
> 
> I don't understand the politics of why it is still in place but I thought I heard Cuban Americans were against it and is that the Florida vote or a part of it you are talking about?
> 
> I will go one day regardless of the embargo, opcorn:


I've always been a big proponent of the "nobody wants to lose votes in South Florida" thing... but I read not to long ago that a majority of Cuban Americans (aformentioned votes) are actually in favor of ending the ban.

So at this point I can only imagine that its the Cuban Americans who lost a lot of money and land when they left (and who probably have a lot now) who are still blocking it.


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## nfarrar

Bunker said:


> And not just American tourists. I don't know if this is still the case but I was told years ago by some non-us friends that if they went to cuba on holiday that could not get a visa to come to the usa for a set amount of time after visiting cuba


I have a number of friends that are forn the Cayman Islands and can say they have no trouble getting a US visa after visiting Cuba. My friend takes his family of 5 there once or twice a year. A weekends day cost him about $100-150.

As far as my firend is concerned he doesnt want Cuba opened up. 1st is would kill Cayman tourism. 2nd his cost would go WAY up since they would have WAY WAY more US money comming in.

Personnaly I wish Castor would go ahead and roll over. Oh well. Who knows if him death would even result in the the end of the embargo. Id love to have a warm cigar rich island 90 miles south of the US! I would love to see the island country free and the cigars familys free to buy and operate farms and factories there, but I can wish in one hand and.... in the other.


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## HWiebe

If the embargo ended, I'd be worried about the cigar prices. The demand would suddenly skyrocket and supply would suffer driving the prices up. They are already too high in Canada as it is.


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## 08RCSB

If the embargo were ended today, I guarantee a few things.

1. They wouldn't start importing habanos until the USA agreed to stop carrying/change the name of the Dominican counterparts (Cohiba, Montecristo, etc). There would still be major roadblocks to Hanbanos being sold at your local B&M.

2. Every American male who has ever smoked a cigar in their lifetime would be out trying to buy Cuban cigars to see the hype. Maybe just a single, but the demand would be through the roof. In my opinion, they would increase production and decrease aging and QC to meet the demand of the newly acquired American market. No bueno.


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## ThunderBolt

*Cuban Cigar Import Regulations*
New York, June 19, 2001 - *Members of the U.S. Congress have exempted themselves from U.S. Department of the Treasury regulations that determine the value of Cuban produced products that can legally be brought back to the U.S.*, according to the New York-based U.S.-Cuba Trade and Economic Council Inc. 
The Congressional Committee on Standards of Official Conduct of the U.S. House of Representatives recently authorized the exemption. 
What this means, according to John S. Kavulich II, president of the council, is that members of Congress, following a licensed trip to Cuba, could bring back more Cuban cigars or other Cuban products than are currently permitted by U.S. Treasury regulations. 
"Members of Congress, including members of the U.S. Senate, under separate rules, have been permitted to retain boxes of Cohiba brand and other Cuban produced cigar brands, some of which have been signed by Fidel Castro, the president of the Republic of Cuba," Kavulich said. 
"A box of Cohiba brand cigars signed by Castro is generally valued at more than $1,000," he said. 
According to the Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC), the office that regulates the U.S. economic embargo against Cuba, individuals subject to U.S. law, including members of the U.S. Congress, travel to Cuba under the auspices of either an OFAC "General License" or an OFAC "Specific License." 
They are permitted to return with up to $100 worth of Cuban- origin products (cigars, rum, T-shirts, crafts, etc.) for their personal use. 
Kavulich said while the U.S. Customs Service permits returning U.S. citizens to bring back up to 100 Cuban cigars, the total value of the cigars can't exceed the OFAC's $100 maximum for licensed travelers returning from the island.


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## Arnie

TonyBrooklyn said:


> They are so jealous of each other. They would rather all starve than see someone with more. They are for the most part all content to have the same thing nothing.


Tony, how do you know this? I think you are absolutely correct. All of our employees are from a certain country and they have the same jealousies. They would rather all go down in flames than work together and have one of their number be a successful manager. It's so frustrating to watch. Endlessly shooting themselves in the foot, and they all end up failing together.

Brilliant observation. Tony.


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## szyzk

Arnie said:


> Tony, how do you know this? I think you are absolutely correct. All of our employees are from a certain country and they have the same jealousies. They would rather all go down in flames than work together and have one of their number be a successful manager. It's so frustrating to watch. Endlessly shooting themselves in the foot, and they all end up failing together.
> 
> Brilliant observation. Tony.


Is this a rubberband effect? These people in Cuba are dealing with a poor, poor quality of life compared to our standards - malnutrition, terrible water quality, lacking certain medical standards and information, rations, oppressive government, etc. So, is Tony's observation valid because the Cubans that make it to the US are more concerned with their own interests than promoting the well-being of their neighbors?


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## Arnie

szyzk said:


> Is this a rubberband effect? These people in Cuba are dealing with a poor, poor quality of life compared to our standards - malnutrition, terrible water quality, lacking certain medical standards and information, rations, oppressive government, etc. So, is Tony's observation valid because the Cubans that make it to the US are more concerned with their own interests than promoting the well-being of their neighbors?


I don't understand your question. But......

What I see every day is a different culture. It's a throw-back to the bygone days of old paternal Europe. When you have a job in that culture your boss becomes your patron and you and your family are, for all intents and purposes, his children. If your kid gets sick, the patron pays the bill and you are beholden, if you need a loan for something, the patron lends you the money and you are beholden.

It is, in a sense, serfdom.

And perish the thought that any one of the boss' "children" try to improve his lot in life.

It's a bizarre system to watch. Astounding, in fact. So different from our way of doing things.

Personally, I prefer our culture.


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## szyzk

Arnie said:


> I don't understand your question.


I guess what I was trying to get at is this:

For so long they've essentially been oppressed. Now that some of them are free from Cuba and living in the US, do they rubberband in the other direction? That is, instead of finding a middleground (trying to improve their lives _and_ the lives of their friends/coworkers), they're so concerned with making something of themselves that they'll hold down other Cubans from succeeding? Is this a reaction to new-found freedoms that they don't know how to deal with?

It's basically an interesting sociological question, and in my eyes it's a great example of why the embargo is hurting more than just business in Cuba. The embargo as it stands has completely changed the humanity of a culture.


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## Arnie

szyzk said:


> I guess what I was trying to get at is this:
> 
> For so long they've essentially been oppressed. Now that some of them are free from Cuba and living in the US, do they rubberband in the other direction? That is, instead of finding a middleground (trying to improve their lives _and_ the lives of their friends/coworkers), they're so concerned with making something of themselves that they'll hold down other Cubans from succeeding? Is this a reaction to new-found freedoms that they don't know how to deal with?
> 
> It's basically an interesting sociological question, and in my eyes it's a great example of why the embargo is hurting more than just business in Cuba. The embargo as it stands has completely changed the humanity of a culture.


No. Absolutely not.

If I understand Tony's premise, he is saying that the old paternalist culture predisposed the Cubans to embrace communism because it ensures poverty for all except the ruling elites. That has nothing whatsoever to do with the embargo or the people who escape Cuba.


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## asmartbull

Heck, I am impressed that after 5 pages, this one hasn't taken a turn
to "political" banter......see, it is possible


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## szyzk

Arnie said:


> No. Absolutely not.
> 
> If I understand Tony's premise, he is saying that the old paternalist culture predisposed the Cubans to embrace communism because it ensures poverty for all except the ruling elites. That has nothing whatsoever to do with the embargo or the people who escape Cuba.


Ah, okay. I guess I misread Tony's statement and your statement then. I was under the impression that the everyday worker was being greedy - _that_, if it were true, I could blame on the embargo. But if it's simply the ruling class , then it has everything to do with communism permeating their culture.


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## TonyBrooklyn

Arnie said:


> Tony, how do you know this? I think you are absolutely correct. All of our employees are from a certain country and they have the same jealousies. They would rather all go down in flames than work together and have one of their number be a successful manager. It's so frustrating to watch. Endlessly shooting themselves in the foot, and they all end up failing together.
> 
> Brilliant observation. Tony.


I have observed it many times through out my life! When in the Marine Corps and later in civilian life! Sad really it is frustrating indeed. I like your choice of words shooting themselves in the foot! Funny my father owned a restaurant when i was a teenager. He would say "Look at those two they would rather shoot themselves in the arse and die dancing than see the other get ahead!"
ound:ound:ound:ound:ound:


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## TonyBrooklyn

Arnie said:


> No. Absolutely not.
> 
> If I understand Tony's premise, he is saying that the old paternalist culture predisposed the Cubans to embrace communism because it ensures poverty for all except the ruling elites. That has nothing whatsoever to do with the embargo or the people who escape Cuba.


Once again you hit the nail right on the head Arnie!


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## Arnie

szyzk said:


> Ah, okay. I guess I misread Tony's statement and your statement then. I was under the impression that the everyday worker was being greedy - _that_, if it were true, I could blame on the embargo. But if it's simply the ruling class , then it has everything to do with communism permeating their culture.


You can't blame greed on the embargo. Greed is a part of the human condition. It comes from humans evolving in conditions that were extremely difficult. People were always on the edge of starvation. One bad season and it meant famine. It lead to a hoarding mentality. Really, it was a survival technique.

Also, it isn't simply the ruling class. It is the culture as a whole, of which, the ruling class is a part.


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## Arnie

It has become fashionable for college professors to teach that Latin America is poor because the USA is rich. That's a very simplistic way to look at the world. 

Latin America is poor despite rich resources and readily available labor because of its culture. The rule of law doesn't exist, property rights are fuzzy at best, education for the common people is virtually non-existent, the patron system ensures that the general populace will be dependent children all their lives, the inheritance customs give inordinate preference to the oldest son leaving the other siblings adrift, on and on. 

And when they turn to socialism/communism for relief it gets worse.

This will sound very unPC, but there is a reason that many of the most prosperous nations on the planet have British backgrounds.


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## TonyBrooklyn

Arnie said:


> It has become fashionable for college professors to teach that Latin America is poor because the USA is rich. That's a very simplistic way to look at the world.
> 
> Latin America is poor despite rich resources and readily available labor because of its culture. The rule of law doesn't exist, property rights are fuzzy at best, education for the common people is virtually non-existent, the patron system ensures that the general populace will be dependent children all their lives, the inheritance customs give inordinate preference to the oldest son leaving the other siblings adrift, on and on.
> 
> And when they turn to socialism/communism for relief it gets worse.
> 
> This will sound very unPC, but there is a reason that many of the most prosperous nations on the planet have British backgrounds.


I came across this which pretty much coincides with what you have said!
The question was Why is America so rich and Latin American countries so poor?
The Answer
"Because we are a land of laws, formed from a constitution and a set of rights. This system provides an infrastructure that allows all to work toward a common goal.

In Mexico for example, they have a system that has no rules at the top. Loans are not repaid, cops are paid off, the courts are not dependable. NO STABILITY.

Therefore, buildings are never completed, jobs are unstable, life and liberty is not protected by law.

This is where American Law, as written by God fearing men, was able to separate the idea of your individual rights given by God, and the public rights we all have as well. Never forgetting the importance of the individual.

This was so successful because we all had a stake in the game and could get a head, could save wealth, pass wealth on, and dream of a better life. So a high percentage of citizens participate daily in the system.

In poor countries most citizens give up and sit down, they stop creating wealth. Just like the Soviet Union at the end they stop letting others steal from them by having nothing to steal."


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## tpharkman

TonyBrooklyn said:


> I came across this which pretty much coincides with what you have said!
> The question was Why is America so rich and Latin American countries so poor?
> The Answer
> "Because we are a land of laws, formed from a constitution and a set of rights. This system provides an infrastructure that allows all to work toward a common goal.
> 
> In Mexico for example, they have a system that has no rules at the top. Loans are not repaid, cops are paid off, the courts are not dependable. NO STABILITY.
> 
> Therefore, buildings are never completed, jobs are unstable, life and liberty is not protected by law.
> 
> This is where American Law, as written by God fearing men, was able to separate the idea of your individual rights given by God, and the public rights we all have as well. Never forgetting the importance of the individual.
> 
> This was so successful because we all had a stake in the game and could get a head, could save wealth, pass wealth on, and dream of a better life. So a high percentage of citizens participate daily in the system.
> 
> In poor countries most citizens give up and sit down, they stop creating wealth. Just like the Soviet Union at the end they stop letting others steal from them by having nothing to steal."


Awesome explanation of the facts Tony!!! Great stuff and thanks for sharing!!!


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## maxwell62

Just one little correction if I may.
:yo:You can travel to Cuba on an American (United States) passport. 
Having it stamped in Havana upon Arrival & departure,:smile:with out problems when returning to the US or when traveling abroad afterwards.
Bob.
(maxwell62):smoke:


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## TonyBrooklyn

Many U.S. citizens instead travel without a license, doing so by way of other countries (many of which have routine flights to and from Cuba) to escape detection. Such countries include the Bahamas, Canada and Mexico. The Bahamas, Costa Rica and Canada U.S. Customs Pre-Clearance facilities at many of their airports. 
*[edit] Via the Bahamas*

From Nassau, Cubana [3] offers flights to Havana daily, except on Saturdays. Bahamasair offers flights on Thursday and Sunday. This is the cheapest and quickest route flying direct to Havana, especially for those living in the South Florida area.

*[edit] Via Canada*

A common practice for U.S. citizens traveling to Cuba via Canada is a two-leg flight: a flight booking for a flight to (and from) Canada and then a separate booking for the flight to (and from) Cuba. The two legs must be booked separately, as airlines such as Air Canada prohibit the booking of U.S. origin passengers to Cuba. Alternately, one could drive or be driven across the border and dropped off in a Canadian city, and proceed to depart from there. This is more easily done for people near Detroit or New York, as non-stop flights to Havana depart from either Montreal or Toronto. 
*[edit] Via Mexico*

Mexico is considered safer and is probably the most popular. However, it still carries some risk: If one travels from Mexico, to Cuba (which won't stamp your passport), and then back to Mexico, he will have two Mexican entry stamps; having two consecutive Mexican entry stamps could raise suspicions if your passport is checked carefully. If you decide to re-enter Mexico from Cuba, you may be able to convince the Mexican immigration officer not to stamp your passport a second time. A small bribe (perhaps $20) may increase the chances of success. However, according to other travelers' reports on message boards, this strategy depends on luck. The Mexican immigration officers have been known to reject the bribe and stamp the passport a second time (not to mention the fact that you would be breaking the laws of two countries in a single trip!) Additionally, you could try to use a birth certificate + US ID to enter Mexico the second time (this is allowed under Mexican law for US citizens). If so you will only have one stamp on your passport. Another safe bet would be to purchase an open-jaw ticket (Cancun-Havana and then Havana-Guatemala city, for example). Mexico doesn't stamp passports on exit, and in that case it would look like in your passport that you flew from Cancun to Guatemala City (or whatever city is your final destination out of Havana). 
Cancun is one of the easier gateways, with several different airlines offering daily flights to Havana. Although it may be slightly worrisome to show up not knowing what to expect, if you arrive earlier in the day it's usually possible to walk up to one of the airline counters and buy an onward ticket for same day travel, as flights on this route are rarely full. Try Cubana. Mexicana also has daily flights to Cuba. 
U.S. citizens also travel via countries without U.S. customs stations (Guatemala, Venezuela, Panama, Cayman Islands, Dominican Republic, Costa Rica, Haiti, etc.) to reduce the likelihood of being caught. A substantial number simply take their chances, hoping they will not be questioned. U.S. citizens are advised by Cuban travel agents not to bring back anything identifiably Cuban (including tickets and receipts) before re-entering the country. 
*[edit] By boat*

There are no regular ferries or boats to Cuba from foreign ports, although some cruise liners do visit. Yachters are expected to anchor at the public marinas. Also, most ports are closed and tourists are not permitted to walk around them. Private vessels may enter at Marina Hemingway in Havana or Marina Acua in Varadero. Entry requires a U.S. passport, but there are no visa requirements. Your passport will not be stamped by Cuban authorities unless you request it. You will likely be intercepted upon your return to America and fined $5000, although this is just a formality. You will not be expected to actually pay this fine nor have there been any repercussions or attempts to collect. The only attempt to prosecute was the case of _Peter Goldsmith v. United States_. This case was dismissed with prejudice in late 2004 in the Miami District Court. 
*[edit][add listing] Buy*

Because of the Embargo, there can be very serious cash complications for a Cuba traveler. All tourists should know that bank cash cards (bank-issued debit cards) from all countries are useless. For Americans, all credit and debit cards from any US financial institution will not work in Cuba. For everyone else, any credit card issued by a foreign bank with a US parent company or US processing firm will also be blocked. In most cases, International VISA- and Mastercard-branded global payment (debit) and credit cards will work, but only if completely unaffiliated with any US subsidiary or US-owned clearinghouse. Regardless of your nationality or location, please research & double-check with your home bank to confirm the card's functionality in Cuba specifically: foreign banks may offer competing card products, some tied to US firms. Travelers have reported receiving bad information from their branch banks - speak to someone in authority if necessary. Don't get stuck in Cuba without money, because of poor planning: know before you go! 
Tourists normally carry enough cash for a short Cuba trip. Most bring their own currency; confirm that yours is accepted, and calculate the most recent exchange rates at the Banco Metropolitano [4]. Because Cuba imposes a 10% penalty on the exchange of USD$, it is not recommended to take larger sums of US Dollars to Cuba. Travelers converting over USD$1,000. generally choose Euros or Canadian Dollars, and for the best rates, its best to organize in advance. Finding the best exchange should never be left until the last minute: US airport and retail forex kiosks offer some of the worst exchange rates. With two conversion (for example, USD$>Cdn$>CUC$), costs can range anywhere between 8-20% depending on the amount and exchange rate at two banks; the relative savings (or loss) can be significant for the budget traveler. For longer trips, exchange what you need in stages: its a waste to reconvert a lump sum of unused CUCs at departure (losing on yet another transaction.) But for shorter trip, be practical: how many visits to an ATM or bank would be necessary on a 7-day vacation? The foreign exchange booths (CADECAs) in Cuban airports offer extremely fair rates, but always be mindful of the calculations and never change for CUC$ on the street. 
The average tourist will rarely use CUP$ (moneda nacional), but a few pesos can be useful in local places. 
All the normal precautions apply, for traveling with big wads of cash: some travelers use money belts and/or travel security devices; others rent a hotel safe (it is not necessary to be a guest to do so.) Most just carefully hide valuables amongst their belongings, carrying a small amount of daily cash. Tourist theft in licensed casas is very rare; a licensed owner has every incentive to protect you so respect their rules & security. Staying in unlicensed casas is riskier for theft, as is being drunk & bringing in shady locals. Etc. 
Sensible travelers will generally avoid any electronic- or paper-trail evidence of unlicensed expenses, where that may be an issue. 
As an alternative to carrying only cash (and contrary to popular belief), US travelers cheques are accepted and economical. But unlike many destinations, travelers cheques are less convenient and cannot be replaced on island if lost/stolen. Also, proof is required for cashing: remember to bring your receipts with you to the Cuban bank! 
Another option used primarily for family remittance, several debit & rechargeable payment cards might make sense for long-term or repeat travelers, especially as "back-up" or emergency funds: students abroad, take note! Investigate the different fees & terms, and allow three- to four weeks for the debit card pick-up on island. As of January 2008, the favored debit cards used by Canadians, Europeans and others include Duales [5], CaribbeanTransfers [6], Telecash-AIS [7] and Monetaria [8]. 
Also, repeat visitors may wish to consider opening a bank account in Cuba. From a Canadian bank, the wire cost is not excessive for larger transfers such as a semester's expenses. Unlike many Canadian and European banks, very few US institutions are authorized to make licensed transfers (via bank wires) to correspondent banks in Cuba. To facilitate & speed this extraordinary type of transaction (IF possible), get the correspondent banks' SWIFT & IBAN codes in advance. Keeping money in a local Cuban bank may be the safest option for a regular & repeat Cuba traveler. 
Lastly, anyone suffering catastrophic loss would probably have to visit their Consulate or Embassy; for US citizens, this will be the US Interests Section of the Swiss Embassy. Emergency funds can be arranged this way, but the process will be time-consuming and the fees will be extraordinarily expensive. 
Regardless of nationality, it is extremely unwise to carry on your person/baggage any evidence of possible Embargo violations, or to discuss any travel expenses with a US govt official. A vigilant, prudent traveler knows s/he is under no obligation to do so, regardless of what some border guard threatens. The above constitutes neither a recommendation nor legal advice; it is provided only as informational reference and the common-sense of many previous Cuba travelers. 
*[edit] Stay safe*

There is no U.S. Embassy or consulate in Cuba. The United States is represented by the United States Interests Section[9], which is technically part of the Swiss Embassy in Havana, though physically separate. It is located in the Vedado district, along the Malecon. They can assist you if you lose your passport or have similar troubles. If you are in Cuba without a Licence, only go to the Interests if you are in grave danger or trouble. 
Roman Catholics should be aware that the Knights of Columbus is banned in Cuba. 
*[edit] Get out*

You are allowed to bring informational materials (books, CDs, records, etc.) and certain types of artwork into the United States, but importing other types of Cuban goods is not allowed. Having any article, receipt, coins etc that says "hecho en Cuba" opens the door to further inquiries about having a travel license. It's best to do a pre-departure cleanup of all baggage. 
Whether or not a traveller has a license to visit, it is illegal to bring into the U.S. any Cuban cigars or spirits; cigars without labels may be presumed to be Cuban, and confiscated. Violating this is likely to compound unlicensed travelers' woes, making them easier targets for prosecution. Also, if unlicensed, bringing back anything that can be identified as Cuban would cause problems, especially if US authorities decide to search your luggage. 
U.S. citizens caught traveling to Cuba without a license will _not_ be denied re-entry, but may be subject to civil penalties of several thousand dollars and/or criminal prosecution. Making false statements to USCIS agents can be added to the charges if you falsely report your travels (e.g. omitting Cuba) at the POE (port of entry), which leads some travelers to give an honest declaration along with an attempt to justify their visit under the general license if they come under scrutiny. Others simply omit Cuba and take their chances. Invoking your Fifth-Amendment right to remain silent may also come in handy when filling out forms or answering more questions whose answers might incriminate you. Simple advice is to smile, then decline to chat, because all this traveling has made you tired. Giving conflicting stories at this point could be construed as making false statements (18USC 1001). Many violators successfully avoid fines by contesting the notices, with the government backing down rather than putting the effort into prosecution and testing their restrictions in court. (The constitutionality of OFAC's "presumption of guilt" regarding spending money in Cuba has not been tested in the courts thus far.) Currently, the National Lawyers Guild [10] and the Center for Constitutional Rights [11] provide legal representation for U.S. citizens accused of violating these restrictions.


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## Oldmso54

Having been born and raised in Hialeah, FL and witnessing the effects of the Bay of Pigs invasion, the nuke threat where we practiced getting under our desks in case of an attack, the Mariel Boat lift and having many Cuban schoolmates and friends, I can tell you that this is a POLARIZING discussion. There are those on either side that you will never convince to change their opinion.

While I've never been there, I've been told first hand that Cuba was (is) a BEAUTIFUL country. Someday, as a full blown US citizen with no other connections, I would love to go there.

But again, having grown up with so many Cubans who "escaped" from Cuba and Castro's regime - I have to say that I would always side with those patriots who lived, breathed and lost their island home - and support their wishes and desires over mine or anyone else's political beliefs. 

I saw stuff first hand - I empathize with what the Cuban people went through. Just HMO and my :2


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## JGD

maxwell62 said:


> Just one little correction if I may.
> :yo:You can travel to Cuba on an American (United States) passport.
> Having it stamped in Havana upon Arrival & departure,:smile:with out problems when returning to the US or when traveling abroad afterwards.
> Bob.
> (maxwell62):smoke:


Bob, I think I understand what you are saying, but I just wanted to make it more clear for other in case they read it wrong. If I have it wrong, please correct me.

It is completely possible to travel to Cuba on a U.S. Passport (i.e. when asked for the passport in Havana you present your U.S. passport). However, if the passport is stamped you *will* have problems with the U.S. government upon your return, as well as every other time you return to the U.S. from travel abroad.

That being said, it is currently against Cuban policy to stamp any U.S. passport, instead, they will stamp a piece of paper and put it in your passport (I have never been, but I know people who have).


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## maxwell62

JGD said:


> Bob, I think I understand what you are saying, but I just wanted to make it more clear for other in case they read it wrong. If I have it wrong, please correct me.
> 
> It is completely possible to travel to Cuba on a U.S. Passport (i.e. when asked for the passport in Havana you present your U.S. passport). However, if the passport is stamped you *will* have problems with the U.S. government upon your return, as well as every other time you return to the U.S. from travel abroad.
> 
> That being said, it is currently against Cuban policy to stamp any U.S. passport, instead, they will stamp a piece of paper and put it in your passport (I have never been, but I know people who have).


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Can't right now do so:sorry: but will scan the stamp in my passport (on arrival) in Cuba.
Likely can do this later tonight or Sunday morning.
Bob.
(maxwell62)


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## TonyBrooklyn

:hmm::hmm::hmm::hmm::hmm:


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## JGD

maxwell62 said:


> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Can't right now do so:sorry: but will scan the stamp in my passport (on arrival) in Cuba.
> Likely can do this later tonight or Sunday morning.
> Bob.
> (maxwell62)


Bob, there is no need to scan your passport, I believe you (and it really isn't a good idea to post such a picture here). Were you granted permission to visit? If not, then you are lucky that no one has caught on.


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## maxwell62

Sorry to have taken so overlong to get a shot of the Cuban stamp.








Date removed.
No worries about doing this,the passport's expired,been replaced.
Just wanted to illustrate that tho the travel restrictions for US citizens are really tight,some times "luck" plays a part.lane:
For what it may be worth do think that the embargo against imports from Cuba is completely wrong. Having said that,while the matter is of interest to members of the Puff forums. It's right at the line and risks of heated political viewpoints should be avoided. 
That get's us to the "catch 22."
How can we discuss fairly something that is so politically charged without mention of the policies involved? :noidea:Sure beats me. 
Cigars? Some would be and ARE quite happy to smoke nothing other than the products that have for a long time been acknowledged as the world's finest.:first::smoke:
Others might not find it to their tastes. 
Bob.
(maxwell62)eace:


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## Enrique1780

I've heard of people using the methods described in TonyBrooklyn's post to get to Cuba. Mexico is a popular gateway to do it.


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## asmartbull

Enrique1780 said:


> I've heard of people using the methods described in TonyBrooklyn's post to get to Cuba. Mexico is a popular gateway to do it.


 Not sure we want to go down this path.....Lets keep it generic...


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## ThunderBolt

Many from the USA travel via Canada. Cuban Customs will not stamp your passport if asked and are happy to accept USA citizens.
Cuba is a extremely beautiful country! Great old architecture, wonderful weather, beautiful beaches, and very friendly people.
People are now allowed to own their own property, run a private buisness and there are more changes coming. I do believe about 1,000,000 people were going to lose their Gov. Jobs but that has slowed to ease the pain. Cuba is changing but the USA Gov. policies really are not helping it along. The USA could have avoided the long reign of Castro politics just by not doing anything. The influx of USA culture would have put down that Gov. a lot faster than what they have been doing. There is zero threat from Cuba, why the USA still needs to continue on the same course is lunacy.


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## asmartbull

ThunderBolt said:


> Many from the USA travel via Canada. Cuban Customs will not stamp your passport if asked and are happy to accept USA citizens.
> Cuba is a extremely beautiful country! Great old architecture, wonderful weather, beautiful beaches, and very friendly people.
> People are now allowed to own their own property, run a private buisness and there are more changes coming. I do believe about 1,000,000 people were going to lose their Gov. Jobs but that has slowed to ease the pain. Cuba is changing but the USA Gov. policies really are not helping it along. The USA could have avoided the long reign of Castro politics just by not doing anything. The influx of USA culture would have put down that Gov. a lot faster than what they have been doing. *There is zero threat from Cuba, why the USA still needs to continue on the same course is lunacy.*


I have discussed this very issue with friends that work for the State dept.
To make a long story short and to avoid going political, I can say that this topic is VERY complicated. It involves everything from agriculture to trade treaty's with other countries.....No substantial changes for the foreseeable future.


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## JGD

asmartbull said:


> I have discussed this very issue with friends that work for the State dept.
> To make a long story short and to avoid going political, I can say that this topic is VERY complicated. It involves everything from agriculture to trade treaty's with other countries.....No substantial changes for the foreseeable future.


You are absolutely right, Bull. A big piece of it is the damage that will be done to American farmers if we are able to import cheap sugar from Cuba - ending our dependence on corn syrup.


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## ThunderBolt

The USA farmer will suffer??? The rest of the world changes while the USA sticks to its buisness as usual stance. Cuba is currently involved in trade with China and Spain heavily, meanwhile the USA has left itself out of this loop. Having a trade partner 90+ miles away is not going to cause destruction to the US economy. Cuba is a country of 11 million + people.
The country that does "without" of many things would be buying a lot of things from the USA. The economy argument is a nice little propaganda argument. There are many benefits to the USA economy opening up to Cuba, also investments, but the USA has a blind eye to that. Meanwhile, the US is heavily involved trading with other nations in the world that are far worse than Cuba.
Further to the 90+ miles, didn't AT&T and Verizon lose out to a 110 mile telecommunications link with Cuba to Venezuela which made a 1,000 mile link? Now who could have made that cheaper and aslo benefited from it but instead bickered in the politics of USA/Cuba.
I would also think airlines from the USA would also benefit from opening up. I'm not trying to bash the USA or anything, but I surely do not understand why they resolve not to resolve anything at all. The USA profits from opening up to Cuba would be far more significant than anyone is talking about. I just don't get it at all :hand:


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## Mante

Just a point of interest for you guys. Cuba's biggest exports are Nickel, Medical Services & Pharmaceutical products (Vaccines & Research Tech etc). The agricultural industry is seriously handicapped from what I have read & makes up a very minor part of their GDP.



> Cuban GDP.
> agriculture: 4.3%
> industry: 21.6%
> services: 74% (2009 estimate)


 Data released November 2010.


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## asmartbull

ThunderBolt said:


> The USA farmer will suffer??? The rest of the world changes while the USA sticks to its buisness as usual stance. Cuba is currently involved in trade with China and Spain heavily, meanwhile the USA has left itself out of this loop. Having a trade partner 90+ miles away is not going to cause destruction to the US economy. Cuba is a country of 11 million + people.
> The country that does "without" of many things would be buying a lot of things from the USA. The economy argument is a nice little propaganda argument. There are many benefits to the USA economy opening up to Cuba, also investments, but the USA has a blind eye to that. Meanwhile, the US is heavily involved trading with other nations in the world that are far worse than Cuba.
> Further to the 90+ miles, didn't AT&T and Verizon lose out to a 110 mile telecommunications link with Cuba to Venezuela which made a 1,000 mile link? Now who could have made that cheaper and aslo benefited from it but instead bickered in the politics of USA/Cuba.
> I would also think airlines from the USA would also benefit from opening up. I'm not trying to bash the USA or anything, but I surely do not understand why they resolve not to resolve anything at all. The USA profits from opening up to Cuba would be far more significant than anyone is talking about. I just don't get it at all :hand:


For a guy who isn't a US citizen and doesn't want to bash the USA, you are doing a fine job ! You can't honestly think it's that simple ?...
Since the embargo started, the US has entered into many agreements with other countries and sectors of the US economy...Frankly, there is much more to this decision than can be discussed on a public cigar forum. Disagree as you will, but if it was in the best interest of the US ,it would change. It is not up to the US to look out for the well-being of Cuba.

Apologies for stepping over the line


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## TonyBrooklyn

The embargo with Cuba as it was originally intended serves no useful purpose!
It never has worked never will work period! So without getting into the political or even economical points of view! Why do we the United States continue to cut our nose to spite our face!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:noidea::noidea::noidea::noidea::noidea:

Just saw your post BullMan we must have posted at the same time.
That is another side to the equation if it does not profit us why bother! This side of the argument is the best i have heard. By not being friends with Cuba we don't have to support them. Like all the other poor countries we are friends with!


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## ThunderBolt

asmartbull said:


> For a guy who isn't a US citizen and doesn't want to bash the USA, you are doing a fine job ! You can't honestly think it's that simple ?...
> Since the embargo started, the US has entered into many agreements with other countries and sectors of the US economy...Frankly, there is much more to this decision than can be discussed on a public cigar forum. Disagree as you will, but if it was in the best interest of the US ,it would change. It is not up to the US to look out for the well-being of Cuba.
> 
> Apologies for stepping over the line


I didn't bash the US. The US is holding onto a policy from the 60's. Thats 50 years ago. The world is nothing like it was 50 years ago and neither is Cuba. I'm just stating facts. If thats a bash, then fine.
I never said the US needs to mother Cuba either. I said the US is missing out on economic opportunities. The US would definitely make economic gains by dropping their embargo. I go to Cuba and see what is happening there. Mega resort complexes being built by China and Spain and who ever else has their hands in there. Havana is slowly being restored. Chinese and European goods are all over the country. 
As far as I'm concerned, the US can keep their embargo, while the rest of the world accepts Cuba. In the long run, Cuba will forge forth into the world and still be a thorn to the US. 
The US can do what ever they want, I don't really care. I'll wave to the USA as I'm flying over them to Cuba :crazy:


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## asmartbull

ThunderBolt said:


> I didn't bash the US. The US is holding onto a policy from the 60's. Thats 50 years ago. The world is nothing like it was 50 years ago and neither is Cuba. I'm just stating facts. If thats a bash, then fine.
> I never said the US needs to mother Cuba either. I said the US is missing out on economic opportunities. The US would definitely make economic gains by dropping their embargo. I go to Cuba and see what is happening there. Mega resort complexes being built by China and Spain and who ever else has their hands in there. Havana is slowly being restored. Chinese and European goods are all over the country.
> As far as I'm concerned, the US can keep their embargo, while the rest of the world accepts Cuba. In the long run, Cuba will forge forth into the world and still be a thorn to the US.
> The US can do what ever they want, I don't really care. I'll wave to the USA as I'm flying over them to Cuba :crazy:


Lets assume your right....Your not, but lets say so for the sake of discussion.
The US's Homeland security would never let this happen at this point in time. In discussions on this topic the Gov believes it would have to be an all or nothing deal . That's all that can be said on the matter. So go ahead and make pedestrian observations....That's all they are.
Enjoy your vacation..


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## TonyBrooklyn

asmartbull said:


> Lets assume your right....Your not, but lets say so for the sake of discussion.
> The US's Homeland security would never let this happen at this point in time. In discussions on this topic the Gov believes it would have to be an all or nothing deal . That's all that can be said on the matter. So go ahead and make pedestrian observations....That's all they are.
> Enjoy your vacation..


BULLMAN use the ignore feature it is your best friend!
Trust me my brother i would never steer ya wrong!
Have a Happy 4th semper fi jar head devildog!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## ThunderBolt

asmartbull said:


> Lets assume your right....Your not, but lets say so for the sake of discussion.
> The US's Homeland security would never let this happen at this point in time. In discussions on this topic the Gov believes it would have to be an all or nothing deal . That's all that can be said on the matter. So go ahead and make pedestrian observations....That's all they are.
> Enjoy your vacation..


Now its homeland security? What is the threat that Cuba poses to the US? I don't have a pedestian observation. Canada has had relations with Cuba that go back to the 18th century. The Gov of Canada certainly would like to see some changes to Cuba's policies, but they have never slammed the door in their face.


TonyBrooklyn said:


> BULLMAN use the ignore feature it is your best friend!
> Trust me my brother i would never steer ya wrong!
> Have a Happy 4th semper fi jar head devildog!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Why should he ignore me, its a conversation, people do that you know.

Edit: Isn't that like the US Cuba relationship, ignore?


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## Arnie

Thunderbolt,

I appreciate your concern for the financial well-being of the USA. It's nice to know our northern neighbors still care about us.

Policies like the Cuban Embargo often take on a life of their own. Other policies are put in place to compensate, business adjusts to the new system and after a while there is a huge tangled web woven around the original. It becomes nearly impossible to undo a simple embargo. The embargo itself is outdated, but tug at one strand of it and you find a whole fabric of systems have grown around it. These things are often not that easy.


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## ThunderBolt

Arnie said:


> Thunderbolt,
> 
> I appreciate your concern for the financial well-being of the USA. It's nice to know our northern neighbors still care about us.
> 
> Policies like the Cuban Embargo often take on a life of their own. Other policies are put in place to compensate, business adjusts to the new system and after a while there is a huge tangled web woven around the original. It becomes nearly impossible to undo a simple embargo. The embargo itself is outdated, but tug at one strand of it and you find a whole fabric of systems have grown around it. These things are often not that easy.


 As I see it, the USA lives for the dollar and breeds that in their country, but obviously in this case they are mired down in 50+ years of politics.
An earlier post of mine showed how reps on your hill are able to override the laws imposed on Cuba but the regular US citizen isn't. Does that make sense? I totally agree with your answer for me, but resolutions to the problem are stagnant and does neither of your countries any good. 
My point is, 50-60 years have come and gone, and the world has changed enormously. Sweeping Cuba under the rug doesn't make it go away. Meanwhile the US is very proactive in the rest of the world trying to win over other countries and change their politics, but thats another great web.


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## Mante

ThunderBolt said:


> As I see it, the USA lives for the dollar and breeds that in their country, but obviously in this case they are mired down in 50+ years of politics.
> An earlier post of mine showed how reps on your hill are able to override the laws imposed on Cuba but the regular US citizen isn't. Does that make sense? I totally agree with your answer for me, but resolutions to the problem are stagnant and does neither of your countries any good.
> My point is, 50-60 years have come and gone, and the world has changed enormously. Sweeping Cuba under the rug doesn't make it go away. Meanwhile the US is very proactive in the rest of the world trying to win over other countries and change their politics, but thats another great web.


Ok I've stayed out of this because like you, I am a non US member of this board & like you I am allowed to deal with Cuba legally but have only an outsiders view as to the intricacies involved in the trade embargo.

Maybe the US members do not take kindly to criticism from outsiders & I must say I get my back up when members start doing the same with my country. You have stated that you are not talking down to the US but this statement alone exhibits exactly that.


> As I see it, the USA lives for the dollar and breeds that in their country


Arnie tried to diffuse the heat here & you choose to ignore that.

I would suggest to you that maybe you have a read of this thread > http://www.cigarforums.net/forums/vb/general-discussion/286417-will-you-please-help-me-learn-disagree-without-being-disagreeable-11.html

Open debate is welcomed but condescending posts are not. The ball is now firmly on your side of the court & how you choose to play it is up to you. Be well mate, enjoy the forum.


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## ThunderBolt

Tashaz said:


> Ok I've stayed out of this because like you, I am a non US member of this board & like you I am allowed to deal with Cuba legally but have only an outsiders view as to the intricacies involved in the trade embargo.
> 
> Maybe the US members do not take kindly to criticism from outsiders & I must say I get my back up when members start doing the same with my country. You have stated that you are not talking down to the US but this statement alone exhibits exactly that.
> Arnie tried to diffuse the heat here & you choose to ignore that.
> Open debate is welcomed but condescending posts are not. The ball is now firmly on your side of the court & how you choose to play it is up to you. Be well mate, enjoy the forum.


This thread is clearly Cuban Bureaucracy and USA Politics. Politics is a heated debate no matter where you are in the world. 
As in my post to Arnie, I said I totally agreed with him. There was no ignoring. There are webs all over the world that need to be untangled. This thread is in concern to US/Cuba and that is what I'm talking about. 
I really don't know what has you insulted?
A prime example of relations reopened by the US is Vietnam. Where there is a will, there is a way. I'm not insulting anyone on this forum and there are plenty of US citizens that agree and disagree with their own country's political objectives. Insulting US politics is my right and their right to do, as we live in a free country and have freedom of speech. There is no need to take it personal.


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## Mante

ThunderBolt said:


> This thread is clearly Cuban Bureaucracy and USA Politics. Politics is a heated debate no matter where you are in the world.
> As in my post to Arnie, I said I totally agreed with him. There was no ignoring. There are webs all over the world that need to be untangled. This thread is in concern to US/Cuba and that is what I'm talking about.
> I really don't know what has you insulted?
> A prime example of relations reopened by the US is Vietnam. Where there is a will, there is a way. I'm not insulting anyone on this forum and there are plenty of US citizens that agree and disagree with their own country's political objectives. Insulting US politics is my right and their right to do, as we live in a free country and have freedom of speech. There is no need to take it personal.


You missed the point here, I am not insulted in the slightest. Political discussion is not allowed here & you seem intent on leading it that way. As I said, enjoy the forum mate, while you can.

Yes it is your right to insult US politics, it is not your right to do so on this *cigar* forum. I hope you have a fine journey through life, I have an idea it may not be easy if you are willing to espouse such views while sitting across the table from most BOTL's in real life while doing so.


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## ThunderBolt

Tashaz said:


> You missed the point here, I am not insulted in the slightest. Political discussion is not allowed here & you seem intent on leading it that way. As I said, enjoy the forum mate, while you can.
> 
> Yes it is your right to insult US politics, it is not your right to do so on this *cigar* forum. I hope you have a fine journey through life, I have an idea it may not be easy if you are willing to espouse such views while sitting across the table from most BOTL's in real life while doing so.


Well if that be the case then fine, discussion ended. This thread should have never even got started, considering the title.
Believe me, I have had plenty of debates with my US friends and Cuban friends. We have left ourselves in disagreement and agreement. Like I said, it has nothing to do with us personally. Having such discussions is an eye opener. I have changed some of my views due to this.


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## Mante

And yet this thread has been running for 10 months with an amount of gentlemanly debate. You Sir have pushed it into the realm of insult. I hope you read back on this thread from the beginning & see how debate should be handled.

Whether the thread should have been started or not is irrelevant. If you enjoy herfing with BOTL's & discussing politics then good for you and I would enjoy as much on a world scale but this is not the place for such discussions.


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## ThunderBolt

Tashaz said:


> And yet this thread has been running for 10 months with an amount of gentlemanly debate. You Sir have pushed it into the realm of insult. I hope you read back on this thread from the beginning & see how debate should be handled.
> 
> Whether the thread should have been started or not is irrelevant. If you enjoy herfing with BOTL's & discussing politics then good for you and I would enjoy as much on a world scale but this is not the place for such discussions.


 I missed your edit of my quote "the USA lives for the dollar and breeds that in their country". Now maybe you found that insulting, but that is the American Dream. So let me clear that up for you.
The *American Dream* is a national ethos of the US in which freedom includes a promise of the possibility of prosperity and success. In the definition of the American Dream by James Truslow Adams in 1931, "life should be better and richer and fuller for everyone, with opportunity for each according to ability or achievement" regardless of social class or circumstances of birth. The idea of the American Dream is rooted in the United States Declaration of Independance which proclaims that "all men are created equal" and that they are "endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights" including "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness
Sorry my one sentence remark didn't make any sense. That is what it was based on. Living so close to the USA, I hear about the American Dream all the time.

Also, I have read through the thread. Plenty of politics in it.


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## smelvis

Unless you want a hailstorm of what I think wrong with My Northern Brothers Country you need to back off. I have a lot of opinions about my neighbors many are not pleasant. You are way to political now and you have no vote dude nada!


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## ThunderBolt

smelvis said:


> Unless you want a hailstorm of what I think wrong with My Northern Brothers Country you need to back off. I have a lot of opinions about my neighbors many are not pleasant. You are way to political now and you have no vote dude nada!


Please send me a link to another forum, sounds interesting.


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## asmartbull

op2:op2:op2: :usa2:


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## sirxlaughs

Cigars and politics just don't seem to mix. I wanted to add a slight correction to the info bout certain people being exempt from the embargo rule. It's a bit outdated and has been updated (not that certain people in the world can't get around the law anyway, right?):

https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/36/~/importing-cuban-cigars

Even visitors can't bring them. Also, wanted to clear something up about the economics. The embargo doesn't mean that the USA doesn't trade with Cuba at all. The US is the largest exporter to Cuba. The embargo makes it so that Cuba can't pay on credit.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8232907.stm

That's all I'm going to say on the subject. Politics, morals, etc, aside, I just wanted to post those two facts. I'm with the people that think this thread should be closed. For those that are open to discussing politics, no matter how heated it may get, perhaps you can make a suggestion to add such a sub-forum.


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## JGD

Ugh.... Thanks for trying, Warren.


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## ThunderBolt

sirxlaughs said:


> Cigars and politics just don't seem to mix. I wanted to add a slight correction to the info bout certain people being exempt from the embargo rule. It's a bit outdated and has been updated (not that certain people in the world can't get around the law anyway, right?):
> 
> https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/36/~/importing-cuban-cigars
> 
> Even visitors can't bring them. Also, wanted to clear something up about the economics. The embargo doesn't mean that the USA doesn't trade with Cuba at all. The US is the largest exporter to Cuba. The embargo makes it so that Cuba can't pay on credit.
> 
> BBC NEWS | Americas | End embargo on Cuba, US is urged
> 
> That's all I'm going to say on the subject. Politics, morals, etc, aside, I just wanted to post those two facts. I'm with the people that think this thread should be closed. For those that are open to discussing politics, no matter how heated it may get, perhaps you can make a suggestion to add such a sub-forum.


I agree, the thread should be closed. Puff will not open Political or Religous threads. Just the mention of Cuba and the US in the same sentence is political, just like the title of this thread.

Wow, thats interesting. Lets say I go to Cuba and on the way back the plane might have to make an emergency landing in the US. Would everyone on board then be fined for having Cuban Cigars, which would be many.


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## Arnie

Leave it open. 
How are people going to learn to discuss these things in a civil manner unless they practice?


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## sirxlaughs

ThunderBolt said:


> I agree, the thread should be closed. Puff will not open Political or Religous threads. Just the mention of Cuba and the US in the same sentence is political, just like the title of this thread.
> 
> Wow, thats interesting. Lets say I go to Cuba and on the way back the plane might have to make an emergency landing in the US. Would everyone on board then be fined for having Cuban Cigars, which would be many.


Landing in an airport doesn't put you on US soil. I can only guess that you wouldn't have problems until you try to enter the country. Again, this is on the assumption that you've been checked and caught. When I went to DR, I bought Cuban rum at the Duty-Free shop and had my own cigars with me. No one said anything to me on entry to the States.


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## Andrewdk

I don't want to contribute to the "how to behave here" thread jack but I can't resist.
- If you can't say something nice about someone don't say anything at all, this should also include another person's country, no one likes someone shitting in their backyard.
- if you feel politically strong about a topic, just avoid comment, this is not a politics forum (I admit I've been guilty of this once, now I just shut up)
- There may be things about the US you don't agree with, but after all this is a US based forum so at least employ some tact, after all no one's perfect. We'd all expect the same courtesy in return.

Whether I agree with you or not Thunderbolt, Tashaz and Smelvis have already pointed out the obvious. Political rants are for political forums, and overpaid politicians.
Sorry for the rant, just my opinion.


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## ThunderBolt

Andrewdk said:


> I don't want to contribute to the "how to behave here" thread jack but I can't resist.
> - If you can't say something nice about someone don't say anything at all, this should also include another person's country, no one likes someone shitting in their backyard.
> - if you feel politically strong about a topic, just avoid comment, this is not a politics forum (I admit I've been guilty of this once, now I just shut up)
> - There may be things about the US you don't agree with, but after all this is a US based forum so at least employ some tact, after all no one's perfect. We'd all expect the same courtesy in return.
> 
> Whether I agree with you or not Thunderbolt, Tashaz and Smelvis have already pointed out the obvious. Political rants are for political forums, and overpaid politicians.
> Sorry for the rant, just my opinion.


Thats not a rant bud, thanks for the opinion.


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## TonyBrooklyn

ThunderBolt said:


> As I see it, the USA lives for the dollar and breeds that in their country, but obviously in this case they are mired down in 50+ years of politics.
> An earlier post of mine showed how reps on your hill are able to override the laws imposed on Cuba but the regular US citizen isn't. Does that make sense? I totally agree with your answer for me, but resolutions to the problem are stagnant and does neither of your countries any good.
> My point is, 50-60 years have come and gone, and the world has changed enormously. Sweeping Cuba under the rug doesn't make it go away. Meanwhile the US is very proactive in the rest of the world trying to win over other countries and change their politics, but thats another great web.


:cheeky::cheeky::cheeky::cheeky::cheeky:Uncalled for grow up! One of the few -R/G i have given in my stay here but i gotta say you earned it!!!!!!!! 
GOD BLESS AMERICA MY HOME SWEET HOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:usa2::usa2::usa2::usa2::usa2::usa2::usa2:

Almost forgot just as you are waving to the U.S.A on your trip to Cuba! I am waving goodbye to you as i feel your stay here is just about over!


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## ThunderBolt

TonyBrooklyn said:


> :cheeky::cheeky::cheeky::cheeky::cheeky:Uncalled for grow up! One of the few -R/G i have given in my stay here but i gotta say you earned it!!!!!!!!
> GOD BLESS AMERICA MY HOME SWEET HOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> :usa2::usa2::usa2::usa2::usa2::usa2::usa2:
> 
> Almost forgot just as you are waving to the U.S.A on your trip to Cuba! I am waving goodbye to you as i feel your stay here is just about over!


Grow up *lol.* Take a good look at your post. Thanks for the opinion.


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## joncaputo

Closing this hostility up. Go out, have a great smoke for the 4th


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