# Don Pepin Garcia takes CS members to school.......



## Blueface

Wanted to share this that I am certain is a topic that will certainly create lots of discussion.
Not intended in any other manner than to share a wonderful experience we had today while at the Herf at TW with Don Pepin Garcia.

Had a wonderful opportunity today to learn so much about cigars.
Got to see in person the difference in the technique of rolling a cigar with a three ring cap v. one with less.
After seeing the difference, it is clear to me why so many don't do it.
Not an easy thing to do and one cigar can consume the time that two or three with no three ring caps would consume to make.

As some may know, this man is a legend in his own time.
He blended Cohibas in Cuba.
He blended Montecristos (any wonder why Tatuajes seem so familiar? Same blend, same Cuban seeds, but from Nicaragua)
He left Cuba just 6 yrs ago and the man is now an incredible success in the U.S.
He has been in the tobacco industry since birth.
To hear him speak, you remember you were given only one mouth and two ears. The reason is to hear more than to speak.

I asked him to come over and speak to us for a bit.
In the group from CS was Bill (Madurofan), Nelson (Nely) and me. In addition, my dad, Nelson's girlfriend and Bill's friend.

My question to Don Pepin was a simple one.
Since he and my dad had already conversed, he knew my dad was quite knowledgable on cigars.
For all, my dad rolled his own, worked for H. Upmann in Cuba and designed the machinery for Cuba to make their own aluminum tubes for cigars.
I mentioned to him my dad enjoyed nothing more than a "fresh" rolled Cuban cigar.
My dad could never imagine smoking an aged one.
He doesn't believe that is the way the cigar tastes best or was intended to be smoked.
I asked him if that was a accurate belief on Don Pepin's part also.
I believe all were shocked to hear his words and at the end, my dad said "I feel vindicated". Frankly, I was shocked to hear that word out of my dad's mouth as English is not something he dominates well.

Don Pepin said cigars are blended to be enjoyed fresh.
The flavor profile is best enjoyed while the oils, moisture and all else is present.
He believes to age a cigar more than five years is not logical.
He went on to state that in Cuba, warehouses with five year old cigars dispose of them as they are no longer seen acceptable.
He stated the most expensive part of the cigar is the cap.
That is what gives the major taste in the mouth.
He said many times, cheap or improperly treated or cured caps are used and hence a bad taste, resulting in perhaps the need to have it tone down in time.
However, that does not make it a good cigar.
In his opinion, that makes a poor cigar that needs to be compensated for.
In his own words, "a cigar aged for 10 yrs, you might as well smoke paper".
He went on to state that many Cuban cigars are not of optimum quality due to the production demands to meet the world's demands.

Now, that doesn't mean we may not enjoy the flavor of an aged cigar.
That just means you are enjoying something that wasn't meant to be.
In my own words as an anaology, many enjoy the taste of pizza placed in the fridge and eaten a day or two later. You may enjoy that particular taste but that pizza was intended to be enjoyed fresh, hot out of the oven, which is a totally different flavor.

Don Pepin was floored that many would spend extra money to purchase aged cigars that he would consider worthy of being trashed.

I wanted to share this with all as many on this board believe aged Cubans are better.
Here is a master blender/roller, who blended Cuba's coveted brands and has a belief that totally either dispells this common belief or at least raises significant questions.

I am not posting this for the intent of controversy but rather as information to all of what a very well respected man in this indurstry said to us in person.
Ironically, it supports what my dad has always said to me and I have previously posted on CS.
If your pleasure is aged Cubans, all should do as they see best and enjoy what their taste buds feel is a great flavor. However, in the opinion of Don Pepin Garcia, he would trash those cigars.

A whole lot more was discussed but can't remember all right now.

Uploading photos now and will post.

BTW, he gladly accepted our invitation to our MMBH III in Florida, where we can gladly ask him to speak on this subject again.
So.......come on down and join us in February with some great BOTLs.


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## jgrimball

Can someone paraphrase this for me? o


JUST KIDDING....Great post bro!:tu
I enjoyed reading your story and hearing his opinion on aged smokes.

I think you made a perfect example with the pizza.
Even though its not meant to be eaten 2 days later & cold, which is fantastic, its all comes down to personal preference. I think I shed a tear when you mentioned destroying aged cubans. 

Well thanks again for this great post.
I think I will go buy some more aged sticks and eat some cold pizza.


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## replicant_argent

WOW!!


Thank you Carlos. 





I will try to shut off my mouth and open my ears when Beth and I (hopefully) come in Feb.


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## Blaylock-cl

Thanks for a very interesting post, Carlos! 

WOW...you herfed with the man!!! :tu


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## Blueface

jgrimball said:


> Can someone paraphrase this for me? o
> 
> JUST KIDDING....Great post bro!:tu
> I enjoyed reading your story and hearing his opinion on aged smokes.
> 
> I think you made a perfect example with the pizza.
> Even though its not meant to be eaten 2 days later & cold, which is fantastic, its all comes down to personal preference. I think I shed a tear when you mentioned destroying aged cubans.
> 
> Well thanks again for this great post.
> I think I will go buy some more aged sticks and eat some cold pizza.


:r:r:r


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## Blueface

Rolling a custom "pipe" shaped cigar for our host Kris.










Another shot of same


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## RJT

Carlos, great post. Glad you had a great time and got to spend time with a legend. I have to say that I tend to agree with Pepin in a lot of ways. I have always favored Habanos and non Cuban cigars when rather fresh. 

However I will say that he is also trying to sell non cuban cigars and the more people smoke his cigars fresh the more he can sell. Not saying that he is lying about what he thinks is right just making a general statment. However I have heard many Cuban people in or out of the business say something very similar to what Pepin has said. They say that cigars are meant to be smoked when fresh. 

Either way it is a great post and something very interesting. This post should draw some varied opinions.


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## taltos

Thank you for the fascinating post Carlos.


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## Blueface

RJT said:


> Carlos, great post. Glad you had a great time and got to spend time with a legend. I have to say that I tend to agree with Pepin in a lot of ways. I have always favored Habanos and non Cuban cigars when rather fresh.
> 
> However I will say that he is also trying to sell non cuban cigars and the more people smoke his cigars fresh the more he can sell. Not saying that he is lying about what he thinks is right just making a general statment. However I have heard many Cuban people in or out of the business say something very similar to what Pepin has said. They say that cigars are meant to be smoked when fresh.
> 
> Either way it is a great post and something very interesting. This post should draw some varied opinions.


You raise great points Robert.
I guess the thing to add food for thought is that you have heard it from others, as I have heard it from my dad, who has no ties to selling any cigars.
BTW, not saying I am not guilty of aging myself.


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## Blueface

Finished "pipe" cigar










Kris being presented the cigar










CS gang
From left to right, Nely's girlfriend, Nely, Madurofan, Dad, Me, Made in Dade and in the back, Pepin's employee/roller.


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## Blueface

Custom "bat" cigar for Kris










Last touches on "pipe" shaped cigar










The man commanding a crowd










Don Pepin himself enjoying a couple of his cigars:r
BTW, those will probably be our hostesses for our MMBH III herf in Florida in February.
Come on down.


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## Blueface

The final highlight of the evening.
At our table, Bill, my dad and me all won a raffle.
We got this very nice ashtray which he signed for us.
Winning tickets?
481, 483, and 484 all at the same table.:r










Close up of mine


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## Bluesman

Great thread, great pix. Thanks for sharing that with us.

Kind of makes me long for my little apartment on Key Biscayne which I left four years ago when I moved up here to the mountains.

(Also, I know the info you've shared has to be true. After all, being a lifelong Yankees fan, I know that nobody wearing a Yankees cap would ever fib. :tu )


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## Blueface

Bluesman said:


> Great thread, great pix. Thanks for sharing that with us.
> 
> Kind of makes me long for my little apartment on Key Biscayne which I left four years ago when I moved up here to the mountains.
> 
> (Also, I know the info you've shared has to be true. After all, being a lifelong Yankees fan, I know that nobody wearing a Yankees cap would ever fib. :tu )


:r
Pops wears it proud.
Man is suffering right now waiting for tomorrow.


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## Bluesman

Blueface said:


> :r
> Pops wears it proud.
> Man is suffering right now waiting for tomorrow.


Don't I know it!?!


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## ResIpsa

thanks Carlos, looks like a great time was had!


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## Lanthor

Wow, awesome thread! Thanks for the info and pics.


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## snkbyt

nice...........wish I had had the time


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## tzaddi

Very interesting post to come across in the Habanos Only Lounge. Thank you so much for the enlightening report and illustrative photos. In my limited range of experience I can understand the underlying theme of you post, "fresh is good".

Your father and Don Pepin Garcia are obviously experienced and wise men. It looks like great fun to boot.

:tu


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## fireman43

Thanks for sharing this with us Carlos! Awesome post brother!


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## Blueface

snkbyt said:


> nice...........wish I had had the time


Wish you had been there also Alex.
As much as all of Kris's events are great, this was something special.
Just imagine that thanks to Kris, we have hung out with Rocky Patel, the Padron family, Ernesto Carillo and now Don Pepin Garcia.
To think I am leaving out all the others that I was not able to make it to where he had other manufactures there like Pete Johnson and others, and ones that I did attend but can't now remember.


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## fordkustom

great post, it has been said by pepin many a time that his cigars are ment to be smoked fresh. most of his cigars i have had i was going to sit on but i can't seem to keep myself from setting them on fire for some reason?


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## macms

There is just enough truth mixed with opinion to at least challenge my beliefs about aged cigars. I wonder if I've ever truly allowed the cigar to educate me...rather than my pre-conceived notions or for that matter self-imposed beliefs.

Thanks for the great post Carlos. It was thought provoking for me. :tu


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## ATLHARP

I believe Pepin is right. I like aged sticks, but I have found them to be a mixed bag. They are nice in some cases(El Rey Del Mundo), but in other case I think they don't quite pan out (Bolivar).

The first person to age cigars was Alfred Dunhill. His humidor in London became a laboratory to age cigars. The aging of cigars was not done by Cubans naturally, but something that developed outside of them. Are aged Cubans better? It really only matters if you think so.........or not....:2


ATL


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## BeagleOne

Great post Carlos. Thanks for the pics too. I guess James and I will have to plan the trip down there in February.


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## Blueface

BeagleOne said:


> I guess James and I will have to plan the trip down there in February.


Now you're talking!!!
Come on down Tony!


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## yourchoice

Wonderful thought provoking post. I'm too much of a newbie to say much else  Thanks for sharing "the man's" thoughts and posting the great pics!


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## txdyna65

interesting post and great pictures Carlos, thanks for sharing it with us 

Hope he is there in Feb, I would love to meet him and hear him speak.


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## Bob

Very enlightening. Thank you for the thread.

:ss


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## DETROITPHA357

Some people have all the fun.:tu Glad u had a good time.


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## Puro_Angler

Absolutely great post! Looks like you had a great learning experience. My experience with aged CC is minimal, so I'll continue to take Pepin's and your father's advice and smoke more fresh ones. :ss 
That pipe cigar is amazing, btw.


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## Blueface

Puro_Angler said:


> Absolutely great post! Looks like you had a great learning experience. My experience with aged CC is minimal, so I'll continue to take Pepin's and your father's advice and smoke more fresh ones. :ss
> That pipe cigar is amazing, btw.


I would encourage you to do both as I don't totally follow his and my dad's thinking completely, if one looks in my humi.
You may very well acquire a taste for what I referred to in the analogy as "cold pizza", which there is nothing wrong with eating either.
Don Pepin is just saying you are paying too much for cold pizza when the hot one is cheaper and provides the intended taste.
Boils down to just one's personal preference.

The one thing I wanted to add that he also said is that an aged cigar does in fact tone down.
That is what many of us refer to when we describe them.
However, that toned down to him is a loss of actually desired flavor in the profile.
True CC's are intended to bite.

As I think about it, other parts of the discussion now come to mind.


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## squid

Great info Blueface....I hope you gave him my addie to send those cubans thate are no longer acceptable to my home!

Hope he gets to the MMBH III herf. It will definitely make the trip even MORE worthwhile!!!



Blueface said:


> Wanted to share this that I am certain is a topic that will certainly create lots of discussion.
> Not intended in any other manner than to share a wonderful experience we had today while at the Herf at TW with Don Pepin Garcia.
> 
> Had a wonderful opportunity today to learn so much about cigars.
> Got to see in person the difference in the technique of rolling a cigar with a three ring cap v. one with less.
> After seeing the difference, it is clear to me why so many don't do it.
> Not an easy thing to do and one cigar can consume the time that two or three with no three ring caps would consume to make.
> 
> As some may know, this man is a legend in his own time.
> He blended Cohibas in Cuba.
> He blended Montecristos (any wonder why Tatuajes seem so familiar? Same blend, same Cuban seeds, but from Nicaragua)
> He left Cuba just 6 yrs ago and the man is now an incredible success in the U.S.
> He has been in the tobacco industry since birth.
> To hear him speak, you remember you were given only one mouth and two ears. The reason is to hear more than to speak.
> 
> I asked him to come over and speak to us for a bit.
> In the group from CS was Bill (Madurofan), Nelson (Nely) and me. In addition, my dad, Nelson's girlfriend and Bill's friend.
> 
> My question to Don Pepin was a simple one.
> Since he and my dad had already conversed, he knew my dad was quite knowledgable on cigars.
> For all, my dad rolled his own, worked for H. Upmann in Cuba and designed the machinery for Cuba to make their own aluminum tubes for cigars.
> I mentioned to him my dad enjoyed nothing more than a "fresh" rolled Cuban cigar.
> My dad could never imagine smoking an aged one.
> He doesn't believe that is the way the cigar tastes best or was intended to be smoked.
> I asked him if that was a accurate belief on Don Pepin's part also.
> I believe all were shocked to hear his words and at the end, my dad said "I feel vindicated". Frankly, I was shocked to hear that word out of my dad's mouth as English is not something he dominates well.
> 
> Don Pepin said cigars are blended to be enjoyed fresh.
> The flavor profile is best enjoyed while the oils, moisture and all else is present.
> He believes to age a cigar more than five years is not logical.
> He went on to state that in Cuba, warehouses with five year old cigars dispose of them as they are no longer seen acceptable.
> He stated the most expensive part of the cigar is the cap.
> That is what gives the major taste in the mouth.
> He said many times, cheap or improperly treated or cured caps are used and hence a bad taste, resulting in perhaps the need to have it tone down in time.
> However, that does not make it a good cigar.
> In his opinion, that makes a poor cigar that needs to be compensated for.
> In his own words, "a cigar aged for 10 yrs, you might as well smoke paper".
> He went on to state that many Cuban cigars are not of optimum quality due to the production demands to meet the world's demands.
> 
> Now, that doesn't mean we may not enjoy the flavor of an aged cigar.
> That just means you are enjoying something that wasn't meant to be.
> In my own words as an anaology, many enjoy the taste of pizza placed in the fridge and eaten a day or two later. You may enjoy that particular taste but that pizza was intended to be enjoyed fresh, hot out of the oven, which is a totally different flavor.
> 
> Don Pepin was floored that many would spend extra money to purchase aged cigars that he would consider worthy of being trashed.
> 
> I wanted to share this with all as many on this board believe aged Cubans are better.
> Here is a master blender/roller, who blended Cuba's coveted brands and has a belief that totally either dispells this common belief or at least raises significant questions.
> 
> I am not posting this for the intent of controversy but rather as information to all of what a very well respected man in this indurstry said to us in person.
> Ironically, it supports what my dad has always said to me and I have previously posted on CS.
> If your pleasure is aged Cubans, all should do as they see best and enjoy what their taste buds feel is a great flavor. However, in the opinion of Don Pepin Garcia, he would trash those cigars.
> 
> A whole lot more was discussed but can't remember all right now.
> 
> Uploading photos now and will post.
> 
> BTW, he gladly accepted our invitation to our MMBH III in Florida, where we can gladly ask him to speak on this subject again.
> So.......come on down and join us in February with some great BOTLs.


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## Blueface

squid said:


> Hope he gets to the MMBH III herf. It will definitely make the trip even MORE worthwhile!!!


Looks good so far for Don Pepin Garcia and Pete Johnson.
Kris will work on others (Rocky and Padron).

I am going to email Don Pepin later or tomorrow to give them the details of the herf date.
He said he needs to check his calendar to make sure he does not head to Nicaragua and miss it.
He sounded very, very genuinely interested.
He and Pete are good friends and Pete has already confirmed with Kris that he will be there so it looks very good for both.
Before even knowing Pete had already reached out, Don Pepin offered to also bring Pete along.


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## omowasu

Damn Carlos, an A+++ thread from an A+++ BOTL! I have only met Don Pepin once, and that was last year in Little Havana. I was down near Pompano Beach and drove to Miami to spend some time at ERDLH and LGC. I walked into the wrong door of ERDLH and ended up in the roller room, and he was there. Nothing more than a handshake, but I remember that particular Noella being absolutely delicious. It was rolled that day. 

I have both aged and fresh, and I enjoy both. Many compare Don Pepins smokes to CC's. After smoking the most recent San Cristobal, I agree. It has some Punch Punch like flavors, although it is more "one-dimensional". One has to wonder if it they will get better with age, or if they are best fresh? The one I had was right off the truck, and it hit on all cylinders.

Ill be up your way in a month or so, and Im workin' on MMHIII. Let me know if you are interested in meeting up for a smoke.drink! Maybe another pilgrimage to Little Havana is in order........


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## onlyonerm

RJT said:


> Carlos, great post. Glad you had a great time and got to spend time with a legend. I have to say that I tend to agree with Pepin in a lot of ways. I have always favored Habanos and non Cuban cigars when rather fresh.
> 
> *However I will say that he is also trying to sell non cuban cigars and the more people smoke his cigars fresh the more he can sell*. Not saying that he is lying about what he thinks is right just making a general statment. However I have heard many Cuban people in or out of the business say something very similar to what Pepin has said. They say that cigars are meant to be smoked when fresh.
> 
> Either way it is a great post and something very interesting. This post should draw some varied opinions.


I tend to believe this and you beat me to it.


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## Blueface

onlyonerm said:


> I tend to believe this and you beat me to it.


Referencing this point:
_However I will say that he is also trying to sell non cuban cigars and the more people smoke his cigars fresh the more he can sell. _

I would hope that is not the way his words are truly interpreted although I can understand that running through minds.

Remember, nowhere on this thread does it say he thinks Cuban cigars suck.
He never, ever said that.
Never did he say his cigars are better than Cubans.
Those type of words would lead one to believe he was peddling his own stuff.
Remember, buying fresh cigars over aged does not mean you will smoke more.
You will probably smoke the same amount regardless so sales cannot be affected by this.

Instead, the discussion focused purely on aged v. non aged.
It focused on cigars in general, not just Cubans.
It was solely one of is an aged cigar better than a fresh one and the subject arose as result of the love for aged Cubans by so many.

I hope this clarifies this well for all as never did this man put down Cuban cigars and promote his. He shared information of tobacco and cigars in general. In fact, he was quite proud of his accomplishments with Cohiba and Montecristo in Cuba. Also remember, my dad does not sell them and they both agree. The one thing they both have in common is age, love of tobacco and a long history around them.


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## floydpink

Interesting reading. I never knew about Tats and Montes coming from the same blend of Cuban seed tobacco. You definitely have some rich heritage in your family tree. Very cool.


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## cigar_040

Blueface said:


> Don Pepin himself enjoying a couple of his cigars:r
> BTW, those will probably be our hostesses for our MMBH III herf in Florida in February.
> Come on down.


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## LasciviousXXX

Thanks for the great read bro, truly a very nice event for you and your dad. What an experience.

I've actually heard the "fresh" opinion is shared by most Cuban people who smoke cigars. Now I don't necessarily share their sentiment but am definitely aware that Cuban smoking trends tend to favor fresh rolled sticks. Aging cigars seems to have come out of the European cigar culture.

Either way, great read and pics bro, thank you!


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## mikey202

Awsome thread!!! thanks Carlos!!! I really wanted to make this event but couldn't. DPG CC Black Label and the 601 line are My Favorite cigars. Very informative and looks like a great time. Hope DPG can make it to the Herf in Feb. Thanks again!!:ss


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## The Professor

OK ... this pic cracked me up. Everyone is looking intently at Garcia rolling *except* for one. Anyone else see that (you can see better on Carlos's original photo b/c it's bigger)? So Bill (madurofan) were you just rolling your eyes, or was one of the Havana Honeys picking something up off the floor?

:r :r :r


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## RJT

Blueface said:


> Referencing this point:
> _However I will say that he is also trying to sell non cuban cigars and the more people smoke his cigars fresh the more he can sell. _
> 
> I would hope that is not the way his words are truly interpreted although I can understand that running through minds.
> 
> Remember, nowhere on this thread does it say he thinks Cuban cigars suck.
> He never, ever said that.
> Never did he say his cigars are better than Cubans.
> Those type of words would lead one to believe he was peddling his own stuff.
> Remember, buying fresh cigars over aged does not mean you will smoke more.
> You will probably smoke the same amount regardless so sales cannot be affected by this.
> 
> Instead, the discussion focused purely on aged v. non aged.
> It focused on cigars in general, not just Cubans.
> It was solely one of is an aged cigar better than a fresh one and the subject arose as result of the love for aged Cubans by so many.
> 
> I hope this clarifies this well for all as never did this man put down Cuban cigars and promote his. He shared information of tobacco and cigars in general. In fact, he was quite proud of his accomplishments with Cohiba and Montecristo in Cuba. Also remember, my dad does not sell them and they both agree. The one thing they both have in common is age, love of tobacco and a long history around them.


Carlos I hope my comments did not come across as he was lying or trying to pedal his stuff. It was just an comment in general about the way a lot of cigar folks in the US come across. Kinda like a US cigar shop talking about how "quality control" in Cuba is awful and that he will put up many NC cigars much better than any Cuban could be type attitudes.

Like I said I have also heard many Cuban people talk about smoking fresh cigars and that is the best way to smoke them. So when he says this I think he is genuine.

I hope this clears up my little comment and was not meant to anyway imply that DP was not genuine in his comments or thinking about cigars.


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## Bear

Wow, awesome thread! Thanks for the information and pictures.


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## rutkus

i am truly envious. what a great experience and great post, thanks for sharing. I can't wait to meet Pepin in person someday...


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## gvarsity

Cool as hell!!! Congrats on the great evening.


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## newcigarz

Great Post. Thanks! :tu


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## [OT] Loki

the bats and pipes are bad ass. did he charge for them?



Also, thank you so much for posting the first post. Very informative and very great to read.


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## Pyro

LasciviousXXX said:


> ...Aging cigars seems to have come out of the European cigar culture...


 I would say it's probably in the other way around! The knowledge is increasing in the European cigar smoking community and I would guess there never have been so many cigar collectors as we have today. At least in Sweden, we are having something looking like a small cigar boom right now!

With that said, I must point out that my personal experience of vintage Cuban cigars is mixed, to express my feelings mildly. A couple of 30 year old Partagás Mille Fleurs have been amazing but other samples of around 20 year old cigars have been too subtle for me to appreciate (or simply tasted more like smoking paper than real cigars!).


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## LasciviousXXX

Pyro said:


> I would say it's probably in the other way around! The knowledge is increasing in the European cigar smoking community and I would guess there never have been so many cigar collectors as we have today. At least in Sweden, we are having something looking like a small cigar boom right now!
> 
> With that said, I must point out that my personal experience of vintage Cuban cigars is mixed, to express my feelings mildly. A couple of 30 year old Partagás Mille Fleurs have been amazing but other samples of around 20 year old cigars have been too subtle for me to appreciate (or simply tasted more like smoking paper than real cigars!).


I understand what you mean my friend, my own personal experience with Vintage cigars has been much more varied however.

I have had numerous cigars from the 70's and early 80's that have been outstanding, just surreal flavors and depth emminating from them. DELICOUS! However I have had several examples of sub-par cigars from the mid 80's that I believe is due more to poor storage conditions than anything else.

As with all things our experiences and tastes are subjective but my general consensus is that aged/vintage cigars are outstanding when properly cared for and can reach a level of richness and complexity that a fresh-rolled cigar cannot achieve.


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## RGD

Giving more to this line of thought - a year ago while herfing at Dave's (68trishield) - I had an 898 Varnished of current year. Dave had a gifted 898 Varnished with age. We compared both. While the aged was certainly smooth and mellow and tasty - the current year, i.e. fresh, just popped with more flavor. I believe that we both enjoyed the fresh much more than the aged.

In addition - I can't believe that blenders would roll a cigar and then wait 5 to 10 years to see how it will perform. They are blending for what they taste now - which is the intended taste profile.

Just my thoughts - 


Ron


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## Gargamel

Excellent thread, thank you. 

Perhaps it's just a situation like wine? I don't know much about the history of wine but I would venture a guess when it was originally being made the thought wasn't "Let's bottle this stuff and let it sit for a few decades". Somewhere along the line that's what happened. I've never had the impression the Cuban cigar industry intended their tobacco to be aged. I will say a few years will take the sting out of most tobacco and give it a rounder flavor. Shoulda had him try some aged goods.


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## relaxnsmoke

Great post. A couple of things really strike me about Don Pepin as amazing. One being that he left Cuba in 2001, as said earlier thats just six years ago. The other is his cigars are so good they've begun to dominate the market! I truly am in awe and probably am the biggest Pepin Whore (and hoarder) in the NW corner of the US. I honestly cannot think of a single month the past year that I haven't purchased at least one box of his blended cigars.

In February of this year I too went and met him on one of his promotional tours up here in the Seattle area. I smoked one of the freshly rolled Garcia Blue Label blended cigars (it is a rarity for him to not have one of the fresh rolled Blues going at all times) and it was excellent. I purchased 3 boxes that day and as part of the promotion ended up with a dozen or more of the freshly rolled Blue Label Generosos 6"x50" (rolled by the man himself). I asked him when and how long I should wait to smoke these cigars and he replied either smoke them immediately or wait at least 6 months. It's been 7 months so maybe I should fire one up and see if I can judge if this particular vitola has improved, settled in or deteriorated any.

It all may be subjective, I've had absolutely marvelous aged cigars. And currently am aging a good amount of Pepin Blends. Some of the best cigars I've ever smoked are 20-30+ year old Cohiba's and Montecristo's from Cuba. He very well could of been involved the whole process of that very great aged cigar I smoked.

Either way Pepin is currently one of the very finest cigar makers on planet earth. I am in absolute awe.



Blueface said:


> Don Pepin said cigars are blended to be enjoyed fresh.
> The flavor profile is best enjoyed while the oils, moisture and all else is present.
> He believes to age a cigar more than five years is not logical.
> He went on to state that in Cuba, warehouses with five year old cigars dispose of them as they are no longer seen acceptable.
> .


*note to myself* get visa immediately, fly to cuba, hang around partagas factory dumpsters.


----------



## DonWeb

very nice. thanks for the thread Carlos.

sounds like livin' in FLA has it's benefits.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


p.s. tell Clara that Amy and Tony said hi.


----------



## jesto68

Thanks for sharing this!

I think that when I started smoking, the kick that I felt from a fresh ISOM really put me off. I wouldn't touch anything that didn't have some age. However, after a few years of refining my palate, I now enjoy non-aged sticks as well.

I really smoke them in all stages now. I don't have the discipline to wait until they age, so as soon as I get a box, I sample a few, a few months later I sample a few more, and so on. Usually, if I have 1 or 2 sicks from a box that make it to 3 years I am lucky.


----------



## Blueface

RJT said:


> Carlos I hope my comments did not come across as he was lying or trying to pedal his stuff. It was just an comment in general about the way a lot of cigar folks in the US come across. Kinda like a US cigar shop talking about how "quality control" in Cuba is awful and that he will put up many NC cigars much better than any Cuban could be type attitudes.
> 
> Like I said I have also heard many Cuban people talk about smoking fresh cigars and that is the best way to smoke them. So when he says this I think he is genuine.
> 
> I hope this clears up my little comment and was not meant to anyway imply that DP was not genuine in his comments or thinking about cigars.


Robert,
I would never take it the wrong way.
I just clarified it because I thought it was a very valid point that you raised and one that I could see others thinking also.
I figured I would respond to it since I was still on line.
I am actually quite glad you did raise it.
Thanks.


----------



## tzaddi

Gargamel said:


> Excellent thread, thank you.
> 
> Perhaps it's just a situation like wine? I don't know much about the history of wine but I would venture a guess when it was originally being made the thought wasn't "Let's bottle this stuff and let it sit for a few decades". Somewhere along the line that's what happened. I've never had the impression the Cuban cigar industry intended their tobacco to be aged. I will say a few years will take the sting out of most tobacco and give it a rounder flavor. Shoulda had him try some aged goods.


IMHO. Although very similar there are striking differences in the comparison of grapes to tobacco. The grapes that make of the wine do not get warehoused to age and develop for 3-4 year minimum once they are harvested. One of the important things to remember is that before a "leaf" is considered for blending by Pepin or someone of his caliber that leaf has been carefully grown, handled, dried, cured, aged and sometime fermented for multiple years.

On the other hand, a knowledgeable blender-trocedor could put together a blend intended for consumption X amount of years down the line.

:2


----------



## Ivory Tower

Thanks for posting that, Carlos. 

Now, I have to track down some fresh-rolled too! Great! It's nearly impossible to get vintage, let alone fresh-rolled, but now I hear they're the best. Maybe I am better off not reading this stuff. :r


----------



## zemekone

Awesome picts carlos!

I have heard that taboada (another master) likes his cigars fresh also. Personally i i like the older stuff  but again to each their own, and i have sed many time everyone has a diffrent pallet...

BTW i love old pizza too...


----------



## replicant_argent

That seals it in my mind now. 



I am only going to smoke vintage-fresh-rolled from now on.


----------



## stashu

The Professor said:


> OK ... this pic cracked me up. Everyone is looking intently at Garcia rolling *except* for one. Anyone else see that (you can see better on Carlos's original photo b/c it's bigger)? So Bill (madurofan) were you just rolling your eyes, or was one of the Havana Honeys picking something up off the floor?
> 
> :r :r :r


Either that or he's eyeing those Ashtons on the shelf.:r


----------



## nozero

How very interesting. I always enjoy reading the opinions of others when so well stated, especially when they are in opposition to the common view. Having never had the pleasure of trying a Cuban cigar, much less a fresh rolled one, I have no basis for an opinion.

Thank you sir for this fine and well written post!
:tu


----------



## Made in Dade

Great post Carlos!

Unfortunately, I missed this whole conversation while kicking some tail in dominoes. Would have loved to have seen your fathers reaction.


----------



## yayson

Blueface said:


> Wanted to share this....SNIP....come on down and join us in February with some great BOTLs.


If you're taking requests for February I'd love to know what he knows about "sick periods". When, why, is it due to blend, storage issue etc? I've also had a few stogies that *smell* like ammonia when I'm smoking them but they *taste* just great, I'll normally let those sit for a while after that but it does indeed bring up interesting thoughts and questions...

Great post, great pics, and it looks like a great time was had by all


----------



## OB1 Stogie

Amazing post, great read. I really wish I would've been seduced by this love of cigars years ago when I live in SoFla. So many great opportunities to rub elbows with some of the legends of the trade. It's amazing that someone of Pepins stature in the business and popularity has remained "grounded" enough to spend quality time with the "common guy." I hope someday to get the opportunity to do the same. Great Post and Pics. :tu

By the way, did he happen to mention where we could get those 5 year old Cuban "throw aways" on the cheap??? Just askin. :w


----------



## Blueface

yayson said:


> If you're taking requests for February I'd love to know what he knows about "sick periods". When, why, is it due to blend, storage issue etc? I've also had a few stogies that *smell* like ammonia when I'm smoking them but they *taste* just great, I'll normally let those sit for a while after that but it does indeed bring up interesting thoughts and questions...


Great question.
Will make sure to ask.



OB1 Stogie said:


> By the way, did he happen to mention where we could get those 5 year old Cuban "throw aways" on the cheap??? Just askin. :w


Boy was that very same thing running through my mind.:r


----------



## Blueface

I just wanted to add that I too am one of those "aged" guys that enjoys that toned down flavor and as result, have had so many of these discussions with my dad who thinks I/we are nuts.

I guess one way to summarize all this and look at it is that as I have already said and so have others that have chimed in, cigars are to be enjoyed as your pallet enjoys.

Nothing wrong with cold pizza the next day if that is a flavor you enjoy.
Also, if everything was always done mainstream, creativity and new ideas would never exist.
It is taking a mainstream idea and proving it can be done differently that leads to new ideas.
As an example, the light bulb. We could have left it as is, but look at how it has transitioned through the years.
We could have possibly still been driving a car that looked like a model A, with no shock absorbers and it could have been on wooden wheels.
How else could bread crumbs or croutons have been discovered if someone did not allow a loaf of bread to dry up and go stale?

I think old school Cuban masters "design" it to be smoked within a certain window of time. Some have taken this mainstream concept and changed it. The result has been a toned down product that is apparently enjoyed by many. It is just not a product that would be enjoyed by cigar masters in Cuba. They believe their product was intended for immediate consumption. The closer to production date, the better. They believe the critical aspect of making that cigar great took place in the process that led to the production of the cigar. Does it make any of it right or wrong? Of course not. Just lets us know what they intended when they made it. What we do from there is our choice.


----------



## BP22

Thanks for sharing Carlos, what a great experience. 

My experience with vintage cigars is somewhat limited mostly due to budget constraints, but the ones I have smoked have been great and horrible. That being said, as good as the 06s and 07s are smoking I don't mind. :ss


----------



## BostonMark

WOW! Great post! Thanks so much!


----------



## Made in Dade

Speaking of aging Cubans. I had a relatively young one last night.... she was only 23 yrs. old. hahaha


----------



## Ron1YY

Made in Dade said:


> Speaking of aging Cubans. I had a relatively young one last night.... she was only 23 yrs. old. hahaha


Was her name Manuela ??? :r :r

Ron


----------



## Blueface

Ron1YY said:


> Was her name Manuela ??? :r :r
> 
> Ron


:r:r:r


----------



## Papichulo

Carlos, I enjoyed reading each and every post in this thread. Thank you very much for sharing this with us. It left me shaking my head, saying to myself, "he does not like aged cigars" . Then again when you are dealing with a true icon in the cigar world I will never under estimate a freshly rolled cigar. Nice photos and nice baseball bat cigar.


----------



## Made in Dade

Ron1YY said:


> Was her name Manuela ??? :r :r
> 
> Ron


Sorry, I don't play that game.


----------



## Kiwi Michelle

Thanks Carlos for the thread and the pics!! I love that pipe shaped cigar!

Puts a whole new spin on "Fresh is Best"!! - not always talking about fruit and veges afterall!!


----------



## Ron1YY

Made in Dade said:


> Sorry, I don't play that game.


Your choice.......Manuela or Kimmy :r :r :hn

Ron


----------



## Navydoc

I think the pipe cigar is way cool looking. I'm also not sure if we are talking about "fresh" rolled cigars or cigars rolled with "fresh" tobacco? All you have to do is look at the new Cohiba maduro line to see they are aging their tobacco prior to rolling...4 years I think. The new EL's out this year have 2 years of aging for ALL the tobacco as opposed to just the wrapper as in previous years. Blending aged tobacco would give the freshly rolled cigar quite a nice flavor profile....as in La China's Feb 07 Ideales. Just my :2


----------



## broozer

granted it was at the LCDH in london, but i smoked a fresh rolled cigar right off the bench last fall over there and you couldn't keep the damn thing lit. AND it did not taste too great either. i was just thinking the other day of lighting one up that i brought home with me from that trip. 

maybe i'm nuts, but i have not really enjoyed any of the '06 and '07 cigars. i'd take an '03 or '02 any day of the week over them. 

i know that don pepin was an insider in the cuban cigar industry, but i'm thinking many of the cubans smoke fresh rolled cigars because they don't have any money. so it's not like they can buy them and age them, ya know?

bruce


----------



## yourchoice

Ron1YY said:


> *Your choice*.......Manuela or Kimmy :r :r :hn
> 
> Ron


Don't drag me into this :chk


----------



## Ron1YY

yourchoice said:


> Don't drag me into this :chk


:r Sorry Bro!!! :tu :r

Ron


----------



## wayner123

Great read and awesome topics you brought up. I am going for the rolling event on Oct. 19 at Corona in Heathrow. maybe I'll have the same luck and get to ask some questions.

Btw, The first thing that stuck out to me was the Rolex Daytona on Pepin's wrist. Anyone else notice that? Or am I the lone watch geek?


----------



## RJT

wayner123 said:


> Btw, The first thing that stuck out to me was the Rolex Daytona on Pepin's wrist. Anyone else notice that? Or am I the lone watch geek?


I thought that is what that might be. I have noticed a lot of the major players in the cigar world wear Rolex.


----------



## wayner123

RJT said:


> I thought that is what that might be. I have noticed a lot of the major players in the cigar world wear Rolex.


That may be true. Rolex has become a statement rather than a functionable watch. The Daytona is an expensive watch. And the waiting list is like 3 years. If that was the white gold version you are looking at an easy $25,000. The stainless steel version is around $12,000. Either way it looks as if Pepin is doing well


----------



## Glacierman

Thanks for the informative and interesting post, Carlos.

Most cigar smokers are like me in that they will rarely, if ever, have the opportunity to smoke a "freshie." By the time the cigars arrive at my door, they are already several months old, and on occasion, maybe a year or more has passed since they were made. They have been aged by default.

The only freshly-rolled cigar I have had was made for me during a factory tour in Honduras, and what I was told echoes one comment by the Don above, i. e., either smoke it now (within a day or two) or give it about two months.

So, what exactly does "fresh" mean? Right off the bench, two months old. Three? Less than a year?

As it is, I'll have to smoke them when I get around to them. Some of the cigars I have now will be a couple of years old by the time I get around to them, but I've never deliberately aged any, they just get old on their own!

Cheers!


----------



## cigarflip

Navydoc said:


> I'm also not sure if we are talking about "fresh" rolled cigars or cigars rolled with "fresh" tobacco? All you have to do is look at the new Cohiba maduro line to see they are aging their tobacco prior to rolling...4 years I think. The new EL's out this year have 2 years of aging for ALL the tobacco as opposed to just the wrapper as in previous years. Blending aged tobacco would give the freshly rolled cigar quite a nice flavor profile....as in La China's Feb 07 Ideales. Just my :2


Completely agree Paul! More for us that smoke the aged sticks.


----------



## Mr.Maduro

That's it!!! I'm moving to S. Florida!!!:r

Looks like I missed another great one!! :tu

Counting the days to the MMHIII.............:ss


----------



## Blueface

Navydoc said:


> I'm also not sure if we are talking about "fresh" rolled cigars or cigars rolled with "fresh" tobacco?


Fresh rolled.
The philosophy is basically that the tobacco should be aged during the process leading up to being rolled.
Once it is rolled, they beleive it is intended to be consumed within 5 yrs at the most.


----------



## Blueface

broozer said:


> granted it was at the LCDH in london, but i smoked a fresh rolled cigar right off the bench last fall over there and you couldn't keep the damn thing lit. AND it did not taste too great either. i was just thinking the other day of lighting one up that i brought home with me from that trip.
> 
> maybe i'm nuts, but i have not really enjoyed any of the '06 and '07 cigars. i'd take an '03 or '02 any day of the week over them.
> 
> i know that don pepin was an insider in the cuban cigar industry, but i'm thinking many of the cubans smoke fresh rolled cigars because they don't have any money. so it's not like they can buy them and age them, ya know?
> 
> bruce


Bruce,
There are always variables/factors.
Perhaps it may have been a fresh rolled but as Pepin said, if the cigar was of quality tobacco, should be ready to be smoked right away.
Just because it was fresh rolled and Cuban tobacco there in England does not make it quality tobacco.
By Pepin's own admission, you can get great tobacco out of Cuba as well as not so great.


----------



## Blueface

RJT said:


> I thought that is what that might be. I have noticed a lot of the major players in the cigar world wear Rolex.


It was a in fact a Daytona.
The most sought after Rolex and the most sought after style (stainless).


----------



## mosesbotbol

A fresh RG Lonsdale is something else. I like the cigars really fresh or aged. There is something to be said about the "sick period", but either side of that period is fine by me.


----------



## Blueface

mosesbotbol said:


> A fresh RG Lonsdale is something else. I like the cigars really fresh or aged. There is something to be said about the "sick period", but either side of that period is fine by me.


That is definitely the second question to be asked in February.
I would love for him to speak to us about the "sick period".

However, based on his opinion of when they are intended to be consumed, could they possibly not even know what a sick period is?
That will be certainly interesting to hear about.


----------



## mosesbotbol

Blueface said:


> That is definitely the second question to be asked in February.
> I would love for him to speak to us about the "sick period".
> 
> However, based on his opinion of when they are intended to be consumed, could they possibly not even know what a sick period is?
> That will be certainly interesting to hear about.


I have a feeling they are smoking them before the sick period and do know what that is, but is of little concern? Cuba acknowledges the sick period on RG Lonsdale saying to smoke within a month or after a year which was spot on correct. That time in-between, these cigars weren't very exciting.


----------



## Bob

RJT said:


> I thought that is what that might be. I have noticed a lot of the major players in the cigar world wear Rolex.


Another thing to think about is this. Maybe the watch was gift. Also, considering all the deals that are made to make cigars etc. Maybe someone rewarded someone for the good work they did. Then again maybe people just buy what they can afford. I admire folks that work hard and play hard and enjoy the benefits of doiing so. I see it as a good thing. Rolex is a good watch. Heck, maybe he is supplying a lifetime of cigars for somebody! I wish it was me!! Even a good coo-coo clock is fun to have! Oh well, just had to make a Coo-coo comment because of the discussion of time pieces!!:chk


----------



## croatan

LasciviousXXX said:


> I've actually heard the "fresh" opinion is shared by most Cuban people who smoke cigars. Now I don't necessarily share their sentiment but am definitely aware that Cuban smoking trends tend to favor fresh rolled sticks.


That's my experience as well. My grandfather, who I never saw without a cigar in his mouth, began going to Cuba in the 1930s to party with his baseball friends and spent a lot of time down there before the revolution; he loved nothing more than a freshly-rolled cigar and had Cuban boxes sent in weekly. He might smoke six or eight cigars a day, but never kept more than a week or two's worth on hand at any time because he liked that fresh "punch." However, I don't think the man ever smoked a thirty year old cigar. He might have liked it. But, knowing his personality (think latin uber-machismo who liked strong flavors in his drink, food, and cigars), I doubt he would have enjoyed the "delicate nuances" some of the vintage Cuban cigar smokers crave.

Hey, I can't stand milk that's been left to rot and turn into some nasty, fedit cheese, but some folks swear by the stuff. Different strokes...


----------



## Blueface

Bob said:


> Another thing to think about is this. Maybe the watch was gift. Also, considering all the deals that are made to make cigars etc. Maybe someone rewarded someone for the good work they did. Then again maybe people just buy what they can afford. I admire folks that work hard and play hard and enjoy the benefits of doiing so. I see it as a good thing. Rolex is a good watch. Heck, maybe he is supplying a lifetime of cigars for somebody! I wish it was me!! Even a good coo-coo clock is fun to have! Oh well, just had to make a Coo-coo comment because of the discussion of time pieces!!:chk


I love Rolex and own one.
Kick myself that when I bought my two tone Oyster Perpetual, a Daytona just like Don Pepin's was sitting right next to the one I bought.
If I recall, it was only about another $800 to a $1000 more than mine.
Boy, do I really kick myself now.

You know what is really, really, really striking to me about his Daytona?
Not the watch.
Not the fact he owns one or how he got it.
Simply the fact that there is no way he would have ever owned one in Cuba. Regardless of fame. Regardless of anything.
(Oh, I forgot, he did have free health care )

This is the best country in the world and I bet you Don Pepin will agree.
Glad we have him on this side of the Florida Strait.


----------



## mosesbotbol

Bob said:


> Another thing to think about is this. Maybe the watch was gift.


I am sure he can afford it and bought it with his own money. You'd have to do something really good or really bad to get that watch as a gift, and rolling cigars will only get you so far on either side of that. He has a good business and that watch was gift to himself just like the rest of us.

I am curious to try one of his cigars and plan to stop by my B&M this week to seek one out.


----------



## JGIORD

Great post!

Awesome pics too :tu

As for aging, I always believed that way. I buy'em and smoke'em. I'm such a Pepin whore that I only smoke his stuff now!! :ss

I really think he has the best cigars in the market (just my :2), and they suit my tastes perfectly.


----------



## Blueface

mosesbotbol said:


> I am curious to try one of his cigars and plan to stop by my B&M this week to seek one out.


Do the Centurion.


----------



## Papichulo

Blueface said:


> It was a in fact a Daytona.
> The most sought after Rolex and the most sought after style (stainless).


Patek Philippe is my choice, but the Rolex Daytona is nice too:tu I have to settle for my Brietling.:cb


----------



## Blueface

Papichulo said:


> I have to settle for my Brietling.:cb


I feel so bad.
I am in tears.:r


----------



## Papichulo

Blueface said:


> I feel so bad.
> I am in tears.:r


Bastage:r


----------



## DBall

Fantastic thread... thank you! :tu


----------



## Fistville

This is an interesting thread. I've had a few thoughts after reading it. 

1. I need to state this before I get into my speel. I love pepin cigars, they are some of the most outstanding recent productions ncs available.

2. It seems to me that it was a very biased statement about "might as well be smoking paper" for 10 years or older cigars. His reaction of shock that people collect vintage cuban cigars seems very fishy. It has been covered that this could easily be a regional taste thing (similar to bordeux wines), but the fact that he played an instrumental role in creating these products, you would have to assume any craftsman would be aware that the majority of the market (outside of Cuba) prefers heavily aged cuban cigars. 

3. It has to be assumed that his move out of Cuba was largely due to financial insentives. Frankly, in that political climate, you'd be crazy to stay in business there, considering the government owns the entire business. So if he has his own label and is creating cigars for largely his own profit rather than the governemnts, you would assume he would encourage people to smoke young cigars. This is just common sense. Again, there is nothing shady about that, it is just business, and business is self-interest. 

4. Experiance wise, I've smoked young Cohibas and Montecristos, which he has a history in making. There seems to be somewhat of a consensus that they just aren't that great when consumed so young. They are either VERY harsh, or bland (again, look at bordeux wines). Sure if that is your taste, enjoy, who is anyone to stop you, but to claim that the other VASTLY larger side of the market prefers the product age, there has to be some merit in that. But it would not shock me that he prefers younger cigars, I personally have never enjoyed Tatuaje and had my first SanCristobel last night and found it awful. They are both just extremely harsh in my opinion, but who am I to say they are bad for someone else, or anyone who likes them is wrong.

Sorry that my numerical organization broke down fairly quickly, I just hope the points I raise can be gleaned from the surfice. Again, just my :2, but I feel I had to comment.


----------



## croatan

Fistville said:


> It has been covered that this could easily be a regional taste thing (similar to bordeux wines), but the fact that he played an instrumental role in creating these products, you would have to assume any craftsman would be aware that the majority of the market (outside of Cuba) prefers heavily aged cuban cigars.


I'm afraid you may be working under a bit of a false hypothesis here. I'm not sure that the "majority" of the market prefers aged cigars. Actually, my guess is that it's a rather small, but vocal (especially on intenet forums) minority. The "majority" of Cuban cigar smokers, I would bet, don't have access to vintage cigars.

Here's an example. Before I became active on internet cigar forums, I considered myself fairly knowledgeable about Cuban cigars, kept up with the industry news, and smoked mostly cigars that were 1-5 years old. I managed to pick up a few that were ten years old here and there, but that was fairly rare. The idea of consistently smoking cigars over ten years old was completely foreign to me--and I smoked a lot of cigars and was no neophyte. Now, I realize that there was a whole other world out there


----------



## Fistville

Interesting point. So you feel it is just the fact that the internet has pooled that group together that prefers aged cuban cigars, and thats what has stirred the possible false pretense?


----------



## mosesbotbol

Fistville said:


> This is an interesting thread. I've had a few thoughts after reading it.
> 
> 1. I need to state this before I get into my speel. I love pepin cigars, they are some of the most outstanding recent productions ncs available.
> 
> 2. It seems to me that it was a very biased statement about "might as well be smoking paper" for 10 years or older cigars. His reaction of shock that people collect vintage cuban cigars seems very fishy. It has been covered that this could easily be a regional taste thing (similar to bordeux wines), but the fact that he played an instrumental role in creating these products, you would have to assume any craftsman would be aware that the majority of the market (outside of Cuba) prefers heavily aged cuban cigars.
> 
> *Fresh cigars in Cuba are a fact and real preference for that region*
> 
> 3. It has to be assumed that his move out of Cuba was largely due to financial insentives.
> 
> *That is an understatement. There is no private commerce. Even the VR brand was a government idea...*
> 
> 4. Experiance wise, I've smoked young Cohibas and Montecristos, which he has a history in making. There seems to be somewhat of a consensus that they just aren't that great when consumed so young.
> 
> *How young, is young? Month, 3 months, one year of the box code?*


___________________________________________


----------



## The Professor

croatan said:


> I'm afraid you may be working under a bit of a false hypothesis here. I'm not sure that the "majority" of the market prefers aged cigars. Actually, my guess is that it's a rather small, but vocal (especially on intenet forums) minority. The "majority" of Cuban cigar smokers, I would bet, don't have access to vintage cigars.


:tpd:

Heck ... the majority here on CS don't smoke vintage or even aged beyond 5 years regularly, I'd venture to guess. This may actually be a legitimate poll idea, James. :tu


----------



## Fistville

Oh, I didn't catch that second paragraph edit there. It's a valid point, agian one of opinion. I think it is juat a bit odd that a former producer of Cuban cigars would dismiss vintage cigars, but I mean it is in his best interest to do so. I've only had the opportunity to smoke a handful of aged cigars, and I've smoked predominatly fresh ones. I can say, that in my opinion, I've enjoyed the aged more for the most part, but there are exceptions (i.e. Mag46, HdM Epi's, and my absolute favorite, PLPC). I wonder though, what his thoughts would be on a place like Hong Kong where aged cigars seem to be all that is acceptable, or the fact that as MRN said (again slanted towards the Hong Kong perspective) shops in Europe used to buy new production and sit them in a humidor for a few years before selling them. I believe, I don't have my book with me since I'm out of town, that he stated that in a caption with a photograph of a very impressive walk-in. This all makes me second guess the Hong Kong perspective, particularly as it appears to be somewhat of a recent trend, perhaps an excess of newly generated capital has led to a massive swallowing up of what htings are considered 'finer and rare'. Again, just spitballing, I don't have the facts on which to base this logical deduction.


----------



## Fistville

mosesbotbol said:


> ___________________________________________


Yes, somewhere under a year is what I ment. Seems to be a bit of hostility in response to my post, hope I didn't stir up a hornets nest . And I don't mean vintage as in decades of age, I see it as over 5 years or so, depending on the brand.

Sorry for all the edits, my fingers can't seem to keep up with my thoughts!


----------



## croatan

Fistville said:


> Interesting point. So you feel it is just the fact that the internet has pooled that group together that prefers aged cuban cigars, and thats what has stirred the possible false pretense?


In a way. You can't really look at Club Stogie as a microcosm of Cuban cigars smokers. The people on here are an enthusiastic subset of the larger cigar-smoking population, and the people you see posting reviews and talking about vintage Cuban cigars is a much smaller and even more enthusiastic subset of that subset.

I think it would be wrong to impute the tastes of fifty or a hundred guys on here to the millions of Cuban cigar smokers worldwide. I would say that most walk in to a local store (where Cuban cigar sales are legal), pick one or two large ring gauge cigars with recognizable names off the shelf, ask the attendant to cut them, and walk out, lighting one on the way.

Think about your local B&M. Sit in there for a few hours and watch the people come and go, grabbing Macanudos or whatever got a high rating in CA, and talking about their next golf outings. That's the average smoker. Now, move that locale from your local B&M to Boutique 22 in Paris, add in a few befuddled American tourists, and I'd say you have your "average" Cuban cigar smoker.

Edit: No hostility toward your post. I'm just talking about the general public here. I think you bring up some very good points, and I thought it would be a worthwhile discussion. I have no idea about his motives (if any) nor would I hazard a guess.


----------



## Fistville

croatan said:


> In a way. You can't really look at Club Stogie as a microcosm of Cuban cigars smokers. The people on here are an enthusiastic subset of the larger cigar-smoking population, and the people you see posting reviews and talking about vintage Cuban cigars is a much smaller and even more enthusiastic subset of that subset.
> 
> I think it would be wrong to impute the tastes of fifty or a hundred guys on here to the millions of Cuban cigar smokers worldwide. I would say that most walk in to a local store (where Cuban cigar sales are legal), pick one or two large ring gauge cigars with recognizable names off the shelf, ask the attendant to cut them, and walk out, lighting one on the way.
> 
> Think about your local B&M. Sit in there for a few hours and watch the people come and go, grabbing Macanudos or whatever got a high rating in CA, and talking about their next golf outings. That's the average smoker. Now, move that locale from your local B&M to Boutique 22 in Paris, add in a few befuddled American tourists, and I'd say you have your "average" Cuban cigar smoker.
> 
> Edit: No hostility toward your post. I'm just talking about the general public here. I think you bring up some very good points, and I thought it would be a worthwhile discussion. I have no idea about his motives (if any) nor would I hazard a guess.


Haha, I like the observation there. It is all too true about sitting in a B&M. That is one reason I love, as I'm sure many others do, the feeling of satisfaction felt when you can display that you actually know something about cigars. That may have to do with my age, because I am yet to walk into a B&M(rather than one where the staff actually knows my name) where they don't follow me like a hawk thinking I'm going to steal something, or assume I don't know the difference between a macanudo and a padron.


----------



## Blueface

Fistville said:


> Interesting point. So you feel it is just the fact that the internet has pooled that group together that prefers aged cuban cigars, and thats what has stirred the possible false pretense?


I wouldn't call it a false pretense.
I would call it an evolution.
Evolution of preferences/tastes.
Sort of like my cold pizza analogy.
Imagine if that continues to evolve and the preference for pizza becomes one of cold, v being served blazing hot.

Just a thing of how the blazing hot pizza that the guy that invented it would never imagine eating it that way. Meantime, folks gradually acquire a taste for it, be it the right taste or not. It is just personal.

The interesting thing to me is that aged cigars take away the very thing a Cuban seeks in his cigars. A bite that stays on your tongue and lips and keeps reminding you for a while post initial light. That bite becomes toned down with age and we call it a great cigar.
I own up to it. I too belong to that club.


----------



## Blueface

mosesbotbol said:


> ___________________________________________


Funny what you mention about VR and glad you raise it.
I bet many think it is his company.
The government is using his name only.
Man owns no cigar company.
He is a Veguero at heart.

Has anyone seen the DVD about the history of the Cuban tobacco?
VR rolls a stick on his lap and cuts it with his hand as smooth as if he had used a blade and lights it and enjoys it, fresh.
What an art!!!
You guys have got to get that from Netflix or Amazon and view it.
Worth the price of admission.


----------



## Fistville

Very true. I do like the cold pizza analogy a lot.


----------



## GAW

Fistville said:


> Interesting point. So you feel it is just the fact that the internet has pooled that group together that prefers aged cuban cigars, and thats what has stirred the possible false pretense?


*Its called the problem of silent* *evidence.*From the book The Black Swan - Cicero presented the following story. One Diagoros,a nonbeliever in the gods,was shown painted tablets bearing the portraits of some worshipers who prayed, then survived a subsequent shipwreck.The implication was that praying protects you from drowning.Diagoros asked,"Where were the pictures of those who prayed, then drowned?"
Doesn't mean aged cigars aren't fantastic smokes but there is a bias there including all the cigars that were fantastic enough that they never survived to be aged.
:ssJerry


----------



## Mr.Maduro

GAW said:


> *Its called the problem of silent* *evidence.*From the book The Black Swan - Cicero presented the following story. One Diagoros,a nonbeliever in the gods,was shown painted tablets bearing the portraits of some worshipers who prayed, then survived a subsequent shipwreck.The implication was that praying protects you from drowning.Diagoros asked,"Where were the pictures of those who prayed, then drowned?"
> Doesn't mean aged cigars aren't fantastic smokes but there is a bias there including all the cigars that were fantastic enough that they never survived to be aged.
> :ssJerry


WOW!! That's deep man!!  But true!! :tu


----------



## JGIORD

This is an interesting article done by Steve Saka of Cigarnexus regarding aging. I think it falls somehwere in between.

http://.cigarnexus.com/counsel/aging/index.html (since I'm not sure if posting links here is permitted, I deleted the WWW before .cigarnexus)

I have smoked both cuban and non cuban cigars of all ages. I fall into the younger is better crowd and personally believe that aging over 5 years, just makes the cigar too muted and boring. 1-3 years seems best for me.

I also feel that too much time is spent worrying about aging and the potential evolution of what the cigar will go through. Its just a bunch of leafs. Smoke'em up and then get some more :ss


----------



## Made in Dade

Blueface said:


> I love Rolex and own one.
> Kick myself that when I bought my two tone Oyster Perpetual, a Daytona just like Don Pepin's was sitting right next to the one I bought.
> If I recall, it was only about another $800 to a $1000 more than mine.
> Boy, do I really kick myself now.
> 
> You know what is really, really, really striking to me about his Daytona?
> Not the watch.
> *Not the fact he owns one or how he got it.
> Simply the fact that there is no way he would have ever owned one in Cuba. Regardless of fame. Regardless of anything.
> (Oh, I forgot, he did have free health care )
> 
> This is the best country in the world and I bet you Don Pepin will agree.
> Glad we have him on this side of the Florida Strait.*




true that meng


----------



## audio1der

Thanks for taking the time to type all this up, Carlos. Very interesting read.


----------



## qwerty1500

Navydoc said:


> I think the pipe cigar is way cool looking. I'm also not sure if we are talking about "fresh" rolled cigars or cigars rolled with "fresh" tobacco? All you have to do is look at the new Cohiba maduro line to see they are aging their tobacco prior to rolling...4 years I think. The new EL's out this year have 2 years of aging for ALL the tobacco as opposed to just the wrapper as in previous years. Blending aged tobacco would give the freshly rolled cigar quite a nice flavor profile....as in La China's Feb 07 Ideales. Just my :2


Your post sparked a question about the aged Cohiba maduros and EL's. I wonder if Habanos SA has developed these cigars *just* to attract that (growing?) segment of cigar smokers who prefer aged cigars. Maybe similar to the apparent move toward larger ring cigars ... give those customers what they want ... even if it goes against traditional wisdom ... just marketing?


----------



## Bob

qwerty1500 said:


> Your post sparked a question about the aged Cohiba maduros and EL's. I wonder if Habanos SA has developed these cigars *just* to attract that (growing?) segment of cigar smokers who prefer aged cigars. Maybe similar to the apparent move toward larger ring cigars ... give those customers what they want ... even if it goes against traditional wisdom ... just marketing?


Jeeze you said a mouthful there! I have to agree with this assessment! QUESTION? In light of the present discussion concerning fresher cigar consumption, is the consumer being given an inferior product in order to address this growing segment who prefer aged cigars? Also, in larger RG cigars you can use inferior tobacco? Maybe that is the reason a lot of larger RG cigars have little flavor complexity??:ss


----------



## Blueface

Bob said:


> Jeeze you said a mouthful there! I have to agree with this assessment! QUESTION? In light of the present discussion concerning fresher cigar consumption, is the consumer being given an inferior product in order to address this growing segment who prefer aged cigars? Also, in larger RG cigars you can use inferior tobacco? Maybe that is the reason a lot of larger RG cigars have little flavor complexity??:ss


From my personal perspective, aging of tobacco prior to rolling is nothing new.
Aging of tobacco longer rather than less to make a better product is nothing new either.
What happened in Cuba for years is that they have not been able to meet the demand the world has for their cigars.
As such, they took shortcuts.
Simplest one is to not age the tobacco as long before it made it to be rolled.
This caused quality to suffer.
Cuba appears interested in returning the quality to their product.
They therefore have gradually been using more and more tobacco aged longer.

Would they make an inferior cigar with the hope it gets better? According to Pepin, no. He said a bad cigar can improve in time but more times than not, a bad cigar is just that.
I therefore don't think they would do it intentionally, form the inside perspective we received from him.


----------



## rx2010

What a great post! Thanks for the pictures and info, very enlightening for a noob like myself.

I have some CoRos that are just over 2 years old now, and were great at a year and a half, anyone got a fresh one to send me? jk


----------



## Coffee Grounds

WOW 
What a post to dispel all the BS about aging.

I am taking my entire bottom shelf of CC's (6 boxes) and I am going to start smoking them on the regular.

In just a few years of aging I feel that my cigars have lost some of their strength.

On another note its good to see immigrants just 6 years in this country have great success. Both men in the pic where wearing very nice Rolexes.
One was the Rolex President and the Other was the 2 tone Daytona.


----------



## mosesbotbol

Whether tobacco is aged or not is irrelevant to preference of fresh rolled cigars in Latin America. Obviously, aged tobacco (pre-rolled) is a preferred product, but it is how the cigar tastes when all the leaves have mellow together over time vs. being able to taste each layer & leaf of the cigar when it is fresh rolled that is the debate.


----------



## mash

I suspect like most things in life there are various opinions about aging, even amongst experts. What I'd like to see are blind taste tests, same stick at various points of aging. Would it be better/same/just different? Anyone know whether this has been done?


----------



## Blueface

mash said:


> I suspect like most things in life there are various opinions about aging, even amongst experts. What I'd like to see are blind taste tests, same stick at various points of aging. Would it be better/same/just different? Anyone know whether this has been done?


What I would say based on my experience and what Pepin told us is that blind or not, a fresh cigar will bite.
An aged cigar "tones down".
Most if not all that enjoy aged Cubans will agree on the term "toned down".


----------



## mosesbotbol

mash said:


> I suspect like most things in life there are various opinions about aging, even amongst experts. What I'd like to see are blind taste tests, same stick at various points of aging. Would it be better/same/just different? Anyone know whether this has been done?


Even a non-smoker could tell the difference between the two. Fresh cigars have a bite that is enjoyed by Latins and many in Spain.


----------



## Blueface

mosesbotbol said:


> Even a non-smoker could tell the difference between the two. Fresh cigars have a bite that is enjoyed by Latins and many in Spain.


My 71 yr old dad, soon to be 72, never used a cutter until recently that I gave him one and forced him to use it.
What he has always loved is biting the cap with his teeth to create the opening, sort of like a punched hole.
While he is doing that, he is experiencing the bite of the cap.
Next, he takes the cigar and puts his tongue on the cap to feel yet more bite.
He then lets his lips feel more of the bite than what he experienced when making the hole in the cap.
The more the bite and the more the slight numbness to his lips, the more he smiles.


----------



## mosesbotbol

Blueface said:


> My 71 yr old dad, soon to be 72, never used a cutter until recently that I gave him one and forced him to use it.
> What he has always loved is biting the cap with his teeth to create the opening, sort of like a punched hole.
> While he is doing that, he is experiencing the bite of the cap.
> Next, he takes the cigar and puts his tongue on the cap to feel yet more bite.
> He then lets his lips feel more of the bite than what he experienced when making the hole in the cap.
> The more the bite and the more the slight numbness to his lips, the more he smiles.


That technique will get you zinging in no time flat!


----------



## M1903A1

Blueface said:


> My 71 yr old dad, soon to be 72, never used a cutter until recently that I gave him one and forced him to use it.
> What he has always loved is biting the cap with his teeth to create the opening, sort of like a punched hole.
> While he is doing that, he is experiencing the bite of the cap.
> Next, he takes the cigar and puts his tongue on the cap to feel yet more bite.
> He then lets his lips feel more of the bite than what he experienced when making the hole in the cap.
> The more the bite and the more the slight numbness to his lips, the more he smiles.


How interesting.

Sometimes I cut a cigar "Cuban style" (especially if it's got the curly tail on the head), but I've never stopped to see if I can pick up any nic from the bits of tobacco--usually I'm too busy spitting them out!


----------



## Bob

I had always assumed there was no need for a cutter and this was the reason for a double and triple cap. I thought they were created to be smoked with minimal tools? I think I may linger more on the cap to see if the bite is definately there. I guess then you know what to expect from the cigar.


----------



## Blueface

Bob said:


> I had always assumed there was no need for a cutter and this was the reason for a double and triple cap. I thought they were created to be smoked with minimal tools? I think I may linger more on the cap to see if the bite is definately there. I guess then you know what to expect from the cigar.


I am intrigued now and need to inquire.
One thing is for sure, when I left Cuba, heck if anyone knew what a cigar cutter was.
Your mouth was your cutter.
You have to see how good pops is.
Looks like a punch was used when he is done.
They actually master that after wrecking a few cigars I am sure.

I think we have another guest for MMBH III - my dad will demonstrate how to do that.:r


----------



## bonggoy

Blueface said:


> What I would say based on my experience and what Pepin told us is that blind or not, a fresh cigar will bite.
> An aged cigar "tones down".
> Most if not all that enjoy aged Cubans will agree on the term "toned down".


This is precisely the reason I prefer aged cigars. I like mild to medium cigars. I don't want to savor the flavor not be overwhelmed by them.

Smoking a young Party 898V is a good but smoking a vintage one is an event.


----------



## Made in Dade

Blueface said:


> My 71 yr old dad, soon to be 72, never used a cutter until recently that I gave him one and forced him to use it.
> What he has always loved is biting the cap with his teeth to create the opening, sort of like a punched hole.
> While he is doing that, he is experiencing the bite of the cap.
> Next, he takes the cigar and puts his tongue on the cap to feel yet more bite.
> He then lets his lips feel more of the bite than what he experienced when making the hole in the cap.
> The more the bite and the more the slight numbness to his lips, the more he smiles.


My abuelo and your father, obviously coming from the same ilk used to do the same thing.


----------



## Fistville

mosesbotbol said:


> Even a non-smoker could tell the difference between the two. Fresh cigars have a bite that is enjoyed by Latins and many in Spain.


Just like the folks in Europe who love tannin in cigars and wine. To each their own! (by region lol)


----------



## donp

BF:
Thanks for the post, and the information. It adds to my ever growing base of knowledge about this hobby I like so much. :tu


----------



## OpusEx

I read up to post #53 on this thread and really wanted to post some opinions, but found out I will be seeing Pepin tonight, so I will try to continue this topic and possibly some others and then post.


----------



## Blueface

OpusEx said:


> I read up to post #53 on this thread and really wanted to post some opinions, but found out I will be seeing Pepin tonight, so I will try to continue this topic and possibly some others and then post.


Ask him about the "sick period".

P.S.
Don't tell him about the photo with the two girls.
I think he was concerned.:r


----------



## OpusEx

Blueface said:


> Ask him about the "sick period".
> 
> P.S.
> Don't tell him about the photo with the two girls.
> I think he was concerned.:r


Already had it in my notes due to this post. I won't mention the girls :r
We'll see what we can cover tonight and I'll report back.


----------



## Blueface

OpusEx said:


> Already had it in my notes due to this post. I won't mention the girls :r
> We'll see what we can cover tonight and I'll report back.


P.S.
Forgot to mention...........
Do you speak Spanish?
He doesn't speak English.


----------



## avid toker

Lots of good info on this thread and I may very well echo the sentiments of many on the thread already. It may very well be personal preference to age or not to and the adage of the cold pizza certainly fits. But aging is beneficial to the cigar in that it does allow for the blend to settle/meld and grow into a more harmonious smoke. 

Smoking a cigar fresh may actually have a more pronounced facet or two of the blend shine through which the enthuiast may prefer or enjoy. But they may not necessarily call the cigar balanced or refined. Another enthusiast may find the same cigar brash, bold or raw and may prefer the smoother more aged cigar. Same thing with wine....some think you need to age wine when in actuality most wines are imbibed when young. Again, aging wine will balance out the flavors from the tannins etc. it is truly personal preference as you say. I don't find anything wrong with either method so smoke whichever you prefer.


----------



## Made in Dade

Given the lesson that Don Pepin gave us over the weekend, I said to myself why am I aging certain boxes of cigars that I have, go ahead and start smoking them. So yesterday I opened up a Nov. 04 box of PSD4 and a POS July 05 box of razz.


----------



## Blueface

I am going to rot in hell for this.:r

Just received a fiver of '98 Punch DC.
Will see dad later and give him one.
Won't tell him when it is from.
Will let him think it is "fresh".
Lets see what he reports.:r


----------



## Seanohue

Blueface said:


> I am going to rot in hell for this.:r
> 
> Just received a fiver of '98 Punch DC.
> Will see dad later and give him one.
> Won't tell him when it is from.
> Will let him think it is "fresh".
> Lets see what he reports.:r


:r I WANT to hear this report!


----------



## mosesbotbol

Blueface said:


> I am going to rot in hell for this.:r
> 
> Just received a fiver of '98 Punch DC.
> Will see dad later and give him one.
> Won't tell him when it is from.
> Will let him think it is "fresh".
> Lets see what he reports.:r


He'll know immediately that is not fresh. If you insist it is, he'll say something is "off" with the cigar as it won't have the power a fresh one has.


----------



## okierock

Blueface said:


> I am going to rot in hell for this.:r
> 
> Just received a fiver of '98 Punch DC.
> Will see dad later and give him one.
> Won't tell him when it is from.
> Will let him think it is "fresh".
> Lets see what he reports.:r


Everytime I give my dad a cigar he eats it.

He likes em fresh too.


----------



## Blueface

Blueface said:


> I am going to rot in hell for this.:r
> 
> Just received a fiver of '98 Punch DC.
> Will see dad later and give him one.
> Won't tell him when it is from.
> Will let him think it is "fresh".
> Lets see what he reports.:r





Seanohue said:


> :r I WANT to hear this report!





mosesbotbol said:


> He'll know immediately that is not fresh. If you insist it is, he'll say something is "off" with the cigar as it won't have the power a fresh one has.





okierock said:


> Everytime I give my dad a cigar he eats it.
> 
> He likes em fresh too.


I am headed over to his place now and taking it with me.
Can't wait.:r


----------



## stashu

So back to the Pizza analogy.

From the time when the pizza has cooled off to room temperature and you put it in the fridge, to the time(usually the next day) that it is cold and no longer soft anymore, this would be considered "the sick period", Right?


----------



## ATLHARP

Blueface said:


> I am going to rot in hell for this.:r
> 
> Just received a fiver of '98 Punch DC.
> Will see dad later and give him one.
> Won't tell him when it is from.
> Will let him think it is "fresh".
> Lets see what he reports.:r


Yo Chocha,

Tell us how they turn out!

ATL


----------



## Blueface

stashu said:


> So back to the Pizza analogy.
> 
> From the time when the pizza has cooled off to room temperature and you put it in the fridge, to the time(usually the next day) that it is cold and no longer soft anymore, this would be considered "the sick period", Right?


:r



ATLHARP said:


> Yo Chocha,
> 
> Tell us how they turn out!
> 
> ATL


Just delivered the goods.
Lets see what happens.


----------



## Bob

Blueface said:


> I am going to rot in hell for this.:r
> 
> Just received a fiver of '98 Punch DC.
> Will see dad later and give him one.
> Won't tell him when it is from.
> Will let him think it is "fresh".
> Lets see what he reports.:r


This sounds very similar to what one of my children did when they got their grades...They did not tell me entirely what was up until they had me over a barrel!!:chk


----------



## avid toker

And? so did your dad pick up on the age?


----------



## donp

>>The one thing I wanted to add that he also said is that an aged cigar does in fact tone down.
That is what many of us refer to when we describe them.
However, that toned down to him is a loss of actually desired flavor in the profile.
True CC's are intended to bite.<<

I have always had the understanding that Cuban cigars are stronger,heartier and fuller bodied than non cuban cigars. Could their penchant for smoking and selling fresh cigars be a reason for this?


----------



## Blueface

avid toker said:


> And? so did your dad pick up on the age?


Hook, line and sinker!!!
Trap set.
Cigar handed over.
Time will now tell.


----------



## Da Klugs

RJT said:


> Carlos, great post. Glad you had a great time and got to spend time with a legend. I have to say that I tend to agree with Pepin in a lot of ways. I have always favored Habanos and non Cuban cigars when rather fresh.
> 
> However I will say that he is also trying to sell non cuban cigars and the more people smoke his cigars fresh the more he can sell. Not saying that he is lying about what he thinks is right just making a general statment. However I have heard many Cuban people in or out of the business say something very similar to what Pepin has said. They say that cigars are meant to be smoked when fresh.
> 
> Either way it is a great post and something very interesting. This post should draw some varied opinions.


There is nothing as poignant as self interest disguised as intellectual conviction. :r

He rolls some of the best NC cigars, hands down. There is a difference between manufacturing and collecting though. Henry Ford never won any car races or drove taxi's his company made.

The market is the best judge of things. Hope they put Don Pepin in charge of pricing at (insert source of vintage cubans here) real soon. :r

The fact that Cuba only sells "fresh cigars" puts the entire island manufacturing and distribution connected group under the original Frank Herbert quote here.

Any self admitted Pepin Whore that smokes a "vintage special" and still thinks a Pepin or any fresh cigar can come close has the pallet of one of those big machines that lay down Asphalt roads. :r

Think second and third maturation. 

But that's just my opinion. :ss

Edit: Fresh cigars are good as well. Just not the same.


----------



## gary106334

Great post Carlos.


----------



## txmatt

Carlos, 

I can't begin to express how jealous I am. Meeting Pepin and being able to discuss such things with him is a dream of mine. Spending a night with his daughter is another, but that is another story.. :tu

Thank you very much for sharing your experience with us.

I am totally buzzing on Xanax and Scotch right now so it would be in my best interest to STOP posting....

You are one lucky bastage..

-Matt-


----------



## Boston_Dude05

Great post. Certainly somewhat contrary to opinion. However, seems Pepin refers to really fresh smokes that are just rolled? Few of us have access to them so if we miss the freshly rolled period then we must wait for the sick cycles hence maybe that is why we prefer aged smokes when we can't get the ones just fresh from rolling.


----------



## Horselington

Man that's amazing. Pepin is going to be at Corona Cigar next weekend and I just can't wait. 

Meeting Carlos "Carlito" Fuente and Jose Pepin Garcia in 2 weeks is just going to be amazing. 

Thanks so much for posting this and the amazing pics that followed!

E


----------



## Blueface

OpusEx said:


> I read up to post #53 on this thread and really wanted to post some opinions, but found out I will be seeing Pepin tonight, so I will try to continue this topic and possibly some others and then post.


Curious as to how it went.
Did you get to ask about the "sick period"?


----------



## OpusEx

Blueface said:


> Curious as to how it went.
> Did you get to ask about the "sick period"?


Wonderful night, but no time and way to "busy" an evening to have a "sit down" with Pepin. Had some nice conversation with Pepin, Mr. Padilla, Pete Johnson and a host of others. I may be headed down to Honduras/Nicaragua soon though and then would have the opportunity in more quiet surroundings to share a whole host of information.


----------



## wayner123

I have been following this thread with great anticipation, are there any updates??


----------



## mosesbotbol

I would be disappointed if a cigar smoker of 30+ years couldn't tell a fresh rolled cigar from a 7+ year aged one...


----------



## SilvrBck

As a scientiest I see a cigar as a leafy collection of chemicals. Romantic, huh? Those chemicals break down and oxidize at different rates. Some chemically decompose and others, such as volitile oils, evaporate and are lost forever. A fresh cigar has more of the original components intact. As it ages, you get a continually changing profile as the ratios change of different chemicals.

The sick period, it would seem, is when the chemical breakdown of the leaf is in full swing producing ammonia. When the majority of the ammonia pre-cursor is gone, so is the sick period. 

If you think about it he makes great sense. Fresh cracked pepper has lots more kick than pre-ground. It also makes me think that I should age my cigars in air-tight containers to help maintain the volatile oils. Hmmm.

Great original post.

SB

PS: Also, the oils in the wrapper are probably the first to go since they are exposed. The oils in the filler should be maintained the best.


----------



## OpusEx

SilvrBck said:


> It also makes me think that I should age my cigars in air-tight containers to help maintain the volatile oils.


Have had a cigar, which was stored under this very premise for two years. Quite an interesting exercise, as the cigar tasted nothing like it's brand flavor profile.


----------



## punch

OpusEx said:


> Have had a cigar, which was stored under this very premise for two years. Quite an interesting exercise, as the cigar tasted nothing like it's brand flavor profile.


Most of what I have read indicates that a cigar is intended to breathe, so air tight containers are a no-no. However, I don't believe everything that I read so I store some of mine in air tight containers. I have had mixed results, but overall they have been positive. I have found that you need to be VERY carefull of the humidity. Wet sticks (like fresh Fuentes) will mould in an airtight container. Sticks that have been brought to lower humidity levels seem to do quite well.

Just my observation.


----------



## OpusEx

punch said:


> Most of what I have read indicates that a cigar is intended to breathe, so air tight containers are a no-no. However, I don't believe everything that I read so I store some of mine in air tight containers. I have had mixed results, but overall they have been positive. I have found that you need to be VERY carefull of the humidity. Wet sticks (like fresh Fuentes) will mould in an airtight container. Sticks that have been brought to lower humidity levels seem to do quite well.
> 
> Just my observation.


There are many "intentions" when the process begins at any operation in any given country. There is probably little to no possibility that someone in havana thirty years ago said "hey let's make this blend in this cigar and I'll bet it tastes great thirty years from now" or "hey I think we should tell people who like cigars to play around with the humidity level they store their cigars at after purchasing them from us" or " we should tell people to "slow oxidize" their cigars in storage because it will result in a totally different flavor profile than what we intend them to experience if smoked right away." The beauty (or sickness some would say) of our chosen hobby/passion/obsession is that we can play around with so many variables and there is no "no-no" :tu


----------



## M1903A1

OpusEx said:


> There is probably little to no possibility that someone in havana thirty years ago said "hey let's make this blend in this cigar and I'll bet it tastes great thirty years from now" or "hey I think we should tell people who like cigars to play around with the humidity level they store their cigars at after purchasing them from us" or " we should tell people to "slow oxidize" their cigars in storage because it will result in a totally different flavor profile than what we intend them to experience if smoked right away."


Of course not...they'd have said "Aging???!! Buy a cigar, bite off one end, light the other! What's so hard about that???" :ss


----------



## LasciviousXXX

OpusEx said:


> There are many "intentions" when the process begins at any operation in any given country. There is probably little to no possibility that someone in havana thirty years ago said "hey let's make this blend in this cigar and I'll bet it tastes great thirty years from now" or "hey I think we should tell people who like cigars to play around with the humidity level they store their cigars at after purchasing them from us" or " we should tell people to "slow oxidize" their cigars in storage because it will result in a totally different flavor profile than what we intend them to experience if smoked right away." The beauty (or sickness some would say) of our chosen hobby/passion/obsession is that we can play around with so many variables and there is no "no-no" :tu


Excellent post.

You know you've reached the point where cigars have moved past being your passion into being your obsession when you have 3 different aging experiments working in your humi at the same time. And you're completely willing to sacrifice a box to the experiment if it means finding a way to bring your cigars to their true full potential down the road. :tu


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## beamish

Blueface said:


> Wanted to share this that I am certain is a topic that will certainly create lots of discussion.
> Not intended in any other manner than to share a wonderful experience we had today while at the Herf at TW with Don Pepin Garcia.
> 
> Had a wonderful opportunity today to learn so much about cigars.
> Got to see in person the difference in the technique of rolling a cigar with a three ring cap v. one with less.
> After seeing the difference, it is clear to me why so many don't do it.
> Not an easy thing to do and one cigar can consume the time that two or three with no three ring caps would consume to make.
> 
> As some may know, this man is a legend in his own time.
> He blended Cohibas in Cuba.
> He blended Montecristos (any wonder why Tatuajes seem so familiar? Same blend, same Cuban seeds, but from Nicaragua)
> He left Cuba just 6 yrs ago and the man is now an incredible success in the U.S.
> He has been in the tobacco industry since birth.
> To hear him speak, you remember you were given only one mouth and two ears. The reason is to hear more than to speak.
> 
> I asked him to come over and speak to us for a bit.
> In the group from CS was Bill (Madurofan), Nelson (Nely) and me. In addition, my dad, Nelson's girlfriend and Bill's friend.
> 
> My question to Don Pepin was a simple one.
> Since he and my dad had already conversed, he knew my dad was quite knowledgable on cigars.
> For all, my dad rolled his own, worked for H. Upmann in Cuba and designed the machinery for Cuba to make their own aluminum tubes for cigars.
> I mentioned to him my dad enjoyed nothing more than a "fresh" rolled Cuban cigar.
> My dad could never imagine smoking an aged one.
> He doesn't believe that is the way the cigar tastes best or was intended to be smoked.
> I asked him if that was a accurate belief on Don Pepin's part also.
> I believe all were shocked to hear his words and at the end, my dad said "I feel vindicated". Frankly, I was shocked to hear that word out of my dad's mouth as English is not something he dominates well.
> 
> Don Pepin said cigars are blended to be enjoyed fresh.
> The flavor profile is best enjoyed while the oils, moisture and all else is present.
> He believes to age a cigar more than five years is not logical.
> He went on to state that in Cuba, warehouses with five year old cigars dispose of them as they are no longer seen acceptable.
> He stated the most expensive part of the cigar is the cap.
> That is what gives the major taste in the mouth.
> He said many times, cheap or improperly treated or cured caps are used and hence a bad taste, resulting in perhaps the need to have it tone down in time.
> However, that does not make it a good cigar.
> In his opinion, that makes a poor cigar that needs to be compensated for.
> In his own words, "a cigar aged for 10 yrs, you might as well smoke paper".
> He went on to state that many Cuban cigars are not of optimum quality due to the production demands to meet the world's demands.
> 
> Now, that doesn't mean we may not enjoy the flavor of an aged cigar.
> That just means you are enjoying something that wasn't meant to be.
> In my own words as an anaology, many enjoy the taste of pizza placed in the fridge and eaten a day or two later. You may enjoy that particular taste but that pizza was intended to be enjoyed fresh, hot out of the oven, which is a totally different flavor.
> 
> Don Pepin was floored that many would spend extra money to purchase aged cigars that he would consider worthy of being trashed.
> 
> I wanted to share this with all as many on this board believe aged Cubans are better.
> Here is a master blender/roller, who blended Cuba's coveted brands and has a belief that totally either dispells this common belief or at least raises significant questions.
> 
> I am not posting this for the intent of controversy but rather as information to all of what a very well respected man in this indurstry said to us in person.
> Ironically, it supports what my dad has always said to me and I have previously posted on CS.
> If your pleasure is aged Cubans, all should do as they see best and enjoy what their taste buds feel is a great flavor. However, in the opinion of Don Pepin Garcia, he would trash those cigars.
> 
> A whole lot more was discussed but can't remember all right now.
> 
> Uploading photos now and will post.
> 
> BTW, he gladly accepted our invitation to our MMBH III in Florida, where we can gladly ask him to speak on this subject again.
> So.......come on down and join us in February with some great BOTLs.


thanks that was very informative..


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## wayner123

Blueface said:


> Hook, line and sinker!!!
> Trap set.
> Cigar handed over.
> Time will now tell.


So, did your dad ever smoke this one?

I am really interested in the results.


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## tccigar

Nice post. 
Enjoyed

Thanks


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## Dblbogie

Great post, great pics. I envy you guys with such a great event.


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## chibnkr

Great post, and very interesting points. I, personally, am glad that there are many cigar smokers that prefer the flavors and "punchiness" of fresh cigars. If not, the vintage cigar market would be even more competitive than it already is!

In the interest of discussion, I will point out two things. First, it is in the interest of the Cuban cigar industry to sell as many quality cigars as possible. If they were to advocate the aging of cigars might decrease current cigar sales. Just an observation on my part. Secondly, the practice of aging cigars has been around for many, many years. The great British tobacconists of the last century had aging rooms and most would not release their cigars for consumer purchase until they had been properly "matured". Although many in the cigar industry do indeed believe that cigars should be consumed young, I know that my palate disagrees. I can honestly say that I prefer aged cigars over fresh cigars virtually irrespective of marca or vitola. But, again, that is just a personal preference that I have (and a preference shared by many others not only on this board but throughout the world). Anyway, an interesting discussion and an enlightening perspective (from a clear cigar "expert") nonetheless! Thanks for posting!


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## D. Generate

Very interesting read. Almost all of the cigar smokers I know and have met in Spain prefer to smoke pretty young cigars. I was in a cigar shop with a couple and a guy picked up a box that was just a few months old and said "Perfect! It's just ready to smoke."

I get strange looks when I tell them how I'm sitting on this box of 8-9-8s or when I check box codes for older stock. I've found that to be the case, although to a lesser extent, in the UK. Cigar smokers I know here are aware of aging, but they just don't seem to care or think it's important.

We joined a board on the internet devoted to cigars, will spend hours talking about them with friends, plan purchases, seek out box codes and create the 'perfect' storage for them. We might not be that representative of most cigar smokers.


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## tecnorobo

D. Generate said:


> Very interesting read. Almost all of the cigar smokers I know and have met in Spain prefer to smoke pretty young cigars. I was in a cigar shop with a couple and a guy picked up a box that was just a few months old and said "Perfect! It's just ready to smoke."
> 
> I get strange looks when I tell them how I'm sitting on this box of 8-9-8s or when I check box codes for older stock. I've found that to be the case, although to a lesser extent, in the UK. Cigar smokers I know here are aware of aging, but they just don't seem to care or think it's important.
> 
> We joined a board on the internet devoted to cigars, will spend hours talking about them with friends, plan purchases, seek out box codes and create the 'perfect' storage for them. We might not be that representative of most cigar smokers.


Not to stray too far off topic here, but it's great to see you posting again man


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## D. Generate

tecnorobo said:


> Not to stray too far off topic here, but it's great to see you posting again man


Thanks a lot. It's taken a good year to settle in over here and now I'm enjoying easing back into the jungle.


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## cigarflip

chibnkr said:


> Great post, and very interesting points. I, personally, am glad that there are many cigar smokers that prefer the flavors and "punchiness" of fresh cigars. If not, the vintage cigar market would be even more competitive than it already is!
> 
> In the interest of discussion, I will point out two things. First, it is in the interest of the Cuban cigar industry to sell as many quality cigars as possible. If they were to advocate the aging of cigars might decrease current cigar sales. Just an observation on my part. Secondly, the practice of aging cigars has been around for many, many years. The great British tobacconists of the last century had aging rooms and most would not release their cigars for consumer purchase until they had been properly "matured". Although many in the cigar industry do indeed believe that cigars should be consumed young, I know that my palate disagrees. I can honestly say that I prefer aged cigars over fresh cigars virtually irrespective of marca or vitola. But, again, that is just a personal preference that I have (and a preference shared by many others not only on this board but throughout the world). Anyway, an interesting discussion and an enlightening perspective (from a clear cigar "expert") nonetheless! Thanks for posting!


I agree. Hand this post over to the collectors in Hong Kong and let's see what they have to say.


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## Tw3nty

However I will say that he [Pepin] is also trying to sell non cuban cigars and the more people smoke his cigars fresh the more he can sell. Not saying that he is lying about what he thinks is right just making a general statment. However I have heard many Cuban people in or out of the business say something very similar to what Pepin has said. They say that cigars are meant to be smoked when fresh.

Either way it is a great post and something very interesting. This post should draw some varied opinions.[/quote]

First, what a great story and an awesome post. Wish i could have joined you. I went see General Cigar Company's Master Tobacco Blender, the legendary Benji Menendez and he shared similar sentiments as Pepin. SO, some more evidence to a different view.

Second, I want to respond to the comment above. Pepin really can make more money by saying by a box now to taste its current taste and buy another box to age so the cigar gets better. he would make more money if the debate carries on and people are tasting and aging to see which is better; they buy twice as many.

He is probably speaking his truth on the subject by stating that aged cigars are not what he values. I believe his sentiment. Does not mean i do not like aged cigars though. Just means, i trust the veracity of his statement.


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## Costa

I really enjoy when these informative and educational post's pop to the top of the surface like those barrels in the first Jaws movie. 

This was before my time here, but I read every word, and learned a ton, and loved those pictures. Thank you.


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## emind56

Did anyone ever get the chance to follow up with Don Pepin about sick period? One of the best posts I've ever read online BTW


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## longknocker

Wonderful story & posts! A classic for CS!!!


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