# The B&M Myth...and how it isn't all about sales tax.



## Nafod81 (Aug 6, 2012)

I just wanted to reach out to my fellow BOTL and pose the following question: "Do local B&M's oppose the lack of sales tax on internet transactions, or moreso the availability of online purchases in general?"

I ask because the web, and my local cigar shop are both full of commentary--on both sides. And I sense something is a bit amiss.

Local B&M salespeople look at me as if I'm nuts if I ask to buy a box. However, I continue to hear B&M owners complain that the advantage the out of state sellers have is in the tax. I live on the state line between Kansas and Missouri, both have low sales taxes (<9%) and neither tax pipe tobacco or cigars. However the prices on boxes online vs. my local B&M's are generally 20%-40% less.

I've seen many a quote (granted NOT here at puff) regarding online sellers as swindlers, and how one needs to trust the professionalism of local B&M's to make sure they are getting a good product. I don't give this viewpoint much thought, as it would apply to web sales in general and in my experience it hasn't been true in a single instance regarding cigars or anything else. Additionally I feel this is woefully incorrect in the least, and a flagrant scare tactic at worst. On the other hand it appears myself and many others are reaping the benefits of the free market the web has created.

Given the above I simply don't buy the argument that the lack of sales tax is driving local business to online sources. The availability of significantly lower prices is. That being said who would benefit the most from legislation killing online cigar sales?

Thoughts?

As an aside I do purchase singles at my local B&M's as I hesitate to think how well they will be shipped. Although the bonus singles and samplers I've recieved have been fine, I feel the local B&M's deserve this business.

Naf


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## ghe-cl (Apr 9, 2005)

I believe you're confusing taxes. The major difference in retail prices in most states and online sales is the state tax imposed on cigars, not the lack of sales tax charged by Internet vendors. The tax on cigars varies from state to state and I'm certain that Kansas and Missouri tax cigars. There is no additional cigar tax levied in Pennsylvania and Florida (and one other state as well, I believe) and that's why so many of the big catalog operations are in those states.


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## johnb (Feb 20, 2012)

And the other thing is a b&m has much greater overhead


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## Mante (Dec 25, 2009)

johnb said:


> And the other thing is a b&m has much greater overhead


Plus they have to provide that tobacco smell inside the store.


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## Brettanomyces (Jul 12, 2012)

Tashaz said:


> Plus they have to provide that tobacco smell inside the store.


If you're referring to the all too common b&m owners who smoke 5 or 6 of their own cigars per day, and call that "overhead," I wholly concur.


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## smelvis (Sep 7, 2009)

Tashaz said:


> Plus they have to provide that tobacco smell inside the store.


That's a big plus and I think the best argument.

I say that because I don't think any B & M's have or give better service than the online sources I use. In fact I think they are less uppity and will bend over backwards to fix any problems. So has almost all B & M's but they have attitude at times the online don't. I guess it just depends on the business.


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## Guest (Aug 7, 2012)

Brettanomyces said:


> If you're referring to the all too common b&m owners who smoke 5 or 6 of their own cigars per day, and call that "overhead," I wholly concur.


If a B&M owner is going to give advice to people as to what they might like to smoke based on their preferences, he needs to know his stock intimately... and that means smoking them regularly! It actually is an overhead cost, enjoying the cigars is secondary


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## Kevin Keith (Jan 24, 2010)

It's economy to me...I never darken the door of a cigar store anymore. I'm not going to pay $2+ for cigars I get for $1 on the internet. The BM guy has gotta make a living, but so do I and neither of us is a charity. Maybe the BM people need to go online...join 'em if ya can't beat 'em! :blah:


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## sum12nv (Aug 22, 2011)

Kevin Keith said:


> I'm not going to pay $2+ for cigars I get for $1 on the internet. The BM guy has gotta make a living, but so do I and neither of us is a charity


Exactly why 99% of my cigar purchases are online. Couldnt of said it better


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## Guest (Aug 7, 2012)

Kevin Keith said:


> It's economy to me...I never darken the door of a cigar store anymore. I'm not going to pay $2+ for cigars I get for $1 on the internet. The BM guy has gotta make a living, but so do I and neither of us is a charity. Maybe the BM people need to go online...join 'em if ya can't beat 'em! :blah:


I can understand that, but for me going to a nice B&M is more than just buying a cigar, it's a whole experience. Going into the walk-in and finding something new, having a smoke with a buddy or other customers and enjoying talking shop with them and the employees. To me it's like going to a bar and having a couple beers, is it cheaper to drink at home? Sure, but sometimes it's nice to get away from the wife and house and have a drink with some buddies


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## izkeh (Dec 17, 2007)

It's really more a matter of volume. the online sellers - JR, CI, Famous, Ccom, etc. all deal in MASSIVE volume. They can buy ocean containers full of cigars whereas Mom and Pop (in most cases) cannot. Therefore, I agree that PRICE is the main driving factor for online sales crushing B&M's.

Here's my take on online versus B&M:
- Online offers the lowest price on almost all sales simply because they don't pay as much for their cigars
- B&M offers the customer the ease of browsing for cigars, touching them, smelling them and in some cases imparting knowledge (as opposed to outright snooty BS that I've encountered in some stores) as well as being able to pick up 3 or 4 of varying brands to sample
- Online typically doesn't charge sales tax
- Online typically has a MUCH wider selection
- B&M have comradery and some have nice smoking rooms
- Online is ALWAYS open and even if you live in the middle of Montana you can get good smokes in a few days 

For me, B&M's have a purpose and I use them about 3 times/year for the second point above. The rest, the VAST majority of my cigar dollars, are spent online at various places. Why? #1 - Price. #2 - Convenience.


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## Blue Raccoon (Mar 13, 2011)

if I didn't use my local B&M I would never have found Stonehaven or Penzance pipe tobacco or would I have found some of the hard to find cigars mentioned on here. I stop at a local once a week buy a nice smoke and sit on their porch and shoot the breeze for an hour or so. I don't have the time or desire to constantly be checking all the online resources. I do like to buy bundles from Famous as it's no ship, no tax and they show up in 2 or 3 days.


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## Oldmso54 (Jul 31, 2010)

Having just been to the IPCPR show and being exposed to both the "big" and "little" guys I can tell you that I have some insights and opinions that I didn't have before.

*As mentioned before there are 2 different taxes = the local sales tax that you pay on all kinds of goods and services and the TOBACCO tax that is unique to each state. FL has no extra tax on premium hand rolled cigars - CO has a 40% tax. The B&M in CO pays $4.20 to get the same exact $3 cigar in his store that the B&M in FL pays $3.00 for. Net result - the B&M in CO is paying $1.20 more for the same cigar right off the bat. Other states like NY and CA are even higher.

*The more you buy the more freebies, extras and discounts you get as well as access to limited releases, HTF's ect. Does anyone really think a local B&M can compete with the likes of CI, Famous or JR in buying power? And does anyone really think that their buying power dosesn't significantly exceed the buying power of any local B&M?

*Then you have the overhead of the local B&M. It's a storefront, a retail business, they have electric, water, rent, property taxes, business taxes, licenses, employees, etc, etc. If you run your own business of any kind you know how hard it is to keep the doors open for the little guy.

*The B&M is a place to learn and experience. You can talk to not only the store owner or tobaconnist, but to other patrons. You can buy a single cigar, smoke it and make your own decision about it before you decide to make a box purchase. There is a camaraderie and social atmosphere about sitting around smoking cigars and telling stories that you cant get from an online purchae.

*I know 2 B&M owners personally, one in FL and one in CO. Don't think for even a tenth of a second that these guys don't work their ASSES off - not to make a fortune but just to survive and keep the doors open! The playing field is SO tilted against them that they face an uphill struggle every single day to PROVIDE A SERVICE to you and me. Trust me when I say it ain't all champaigne and roses for those guys!

Lastly - and this is strictly my opinion/prediction: If local B&M's were to go away and all you had were the GIANTS aka General Cigars, Altadis and they controlled the large online vendors aka CI, Famous, JR's - you would eventually end up with a homogonized product where THEY decided what was available to the consumer and all you would have to rely on was their advertising, hype and word of mouth from others. Without your local B&M you would eventually diminish the opportunities for you to go into a shop - try a cigar - and make your own personal judgement.

I'm not a B&M owner and no affiliation other than to call a few different guys my friends... but don't be so quick to diss the local guys if you have'nt walked in their shoes and faced their challenges.

JUST MHO :anim_soapbox:


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## Guest (Aug 7, 2012)

Oldmso54 said:


> Having just been to the IPCPR show and being exposed to both the "big" and "little" guys I can tell you that I have some insights and opinions that I didn't have before.
> 
> *As mentioned before there are 2 different taxes = the local sales tax that you pay on all kinds of goods and services and the TOBACCO tax that is unique to each state. FL has no extra tax on premium hand rolled cigars - CO has a 40% tax. The B&M in CO pays $4.20 to get the same exact $3 cigar in his store that the B&M in FL pays $3.00 for. Net result - the B&M in CO is paying $1.20 more for the same cigar right off the bat. Other states like NY and CA are even higher.
> 
> ...


Very well said Shawn!


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## ghe-cl (Apr 9, 2005)

It isn't just volume, though that obviously plays a part. But probably more important is that JR Cigars is owned by Altadis and Cigars International is owned by Swedish Match, which owns General Cigar. So you have two of the largest cigar retail operations in the U.S. owned by far and away the two biggest cigar manufacturers in the world.


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## capttrips (Jun 25, 2012)

If you are a cigar retailer of any kind and not using the internet to sell your product then you are killing your business. That being said 90% of my cigars I purchase from my B&M store. First off, they'll match any vendor out there. Secondly, the owner is like a part of my family. Third, if for some reason they can't match I'll pay the few extra bucks because I sure prefer that to having to drive 15 extra miles to the next B&M. At tghe present time I'm in negotiations to purchase a cigar shop and am well aware of what's in front of me. They aren't making a killing on cigars.

One more thing, if it weren't for my B&M I wouldn't buy half the cigars I buy now. I go in, owner thinks they have something I like, gives me a sample, I smoke it, give them feedback, and decide from there. It would stop me from spending $300 on a box of cigars.


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## smelvis (Sep 7, 2009)

You all make good points and who doesn't root for the B & M's but no one is looking out for us. I am for the first time thinking of myself and myself only. They can do what they want that is why I have a lifetime supply. Almost none of it came from storefronts. Oh I will always buy something when going to a B & M but I won't pay ridicules prices so they can live their dream.

And big brother already has control. No offence


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## Dhughes12 (Feb 15, 2012)

I actually have yet to buy form an online shop. as a business owner, i understand the cost & value of customer service. nothing wrong with buying online. I just would gladly spend an extra buck or two on a stick locally & get the whole in store experience. I consider myself lucky in that, all but one of my local B&M's are great friendly guys who are more than happy to share their knowledge with you. now when i start buying cases, that might change a little bit. but i will try to keep as much of my money in my community as possible. i like knowing that for the most part, my hard earned money is being recycled back into the local economy.


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## fuente~fuente (May 11, 2009)

Dhughes12 said:


> I actually have yet to buy form an online shop. as a business owner, i understand the cost & value of customer service. nothing wrong with buying online. I just would gladly spend an extra buck or two on a stick locally & get the whole in store experience. I consider myself lucky in that, all but one of my local B&M's are great friendly guys who are more than happy to share their knowledge with you. now when i start buying cases, that might change a little bit. but i will try to keep as much of my money in my community as possible. i like knowing that for the most part, my hard earned money is being recycled back into the local economy.


Thank you Dustin... As someone who is in the business now, It really feels good to hear someone who gets it. :yo:

Shawn, good post! :amen:


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## bazookajoe8 (Apr 6, 2012)

Shawn - that was everything that i could say and more. Thanks for that post

Get out there and support your local guys if you can. We work very hard to be there for you! Dont let those big guys get all the pie!


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## fuente~fuente (May 11, 2009)

bazookajoe8 said:


> Shawn - that was everything that i could say and more. Thanks for that post
> 
> Get out there and support your local guys if you can. We work very hard to be there for you! Dont let those big guys get all the pie!


Cant bump you cuz I've given too much RG lately, but you will get one for this post! :beerchug:


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## Quine (Nov 9, 2011)

Good points all around, and 2 thumbs up for Shawn and Dustin! I like going to a local B&M to support local business and because (when they have lounges) they are a social experience and not just a way to buy cigars I end up smoking (mostly) alone. Alas Knickerbockers is gone now and so I have no B&M that is convenient to visit, but when I did (as also when I worked in SF), the per-stick price is a little higher than on-line, but at the box level the B&M's I frequented gave discount of 10%-20% (over the single price) and that brought the box price down (esp. the 20%) to where it is on-line minus the all-to-frequent shipping charge but plus the local sales tax. In the end, the price difference (assuming such a discount for a box) would not stop me from buying at a local shop because I think it is worth a little extra to support a local business and randomly meet other BOTLs, something you can't do (at least not in person) on-line. 

I have asked the owners of 3 B&Ms if they thought the lack of (out-of-state) sales tax on-line was a disadvantage to them and they all said yes, but the trade-off with the shipping charges pretty much evens it out from my point of view anyway.


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## Ken Hastings (Jun 28, 2012)

I'm surprised that JR's claims to be the biggest retailer. They don't have the best deals. CI and it's devil site I have no problem believing #1 and Famous/Monster/CA being #2 but that's just a guess based on what I see. Arthur Zaretsky of Famous is doing a great job keeping up with the big dogs.

B&M's are all over the map on price some are reasonable and some are downright a rip-off. B&M staff range from priceless gems, to ignorant, to are they are getting paid to drive away business? Most B&M have limited inventory not even the big boys have everything. Limited inventory is a big reason I go online. I've ordered from five different online stores to get what I want and I'm sure a few orders from europe are in my future. Some B&M's play well against the big boys. Serious cigars does a great job here in Texas and I'm happy to pay sales tax when ordering from them.


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## smelvis (Sep 7, 2009)

Ken Hastings said:


> I'm surprised that JR's claims to be the biggest retailer. They don't have the best deals. CI and it's devil site I have no problem believing #1 and Famous/Monster/CA being #2 but that's just a guess based on what I see. Arthur Zaretsky of Famous is doing a great job keeping up with the big dogs.
> 
> B&M's are all over the map on price some are reasonable and some are downright a rip-off. B&M staff range from priceless gems, to ignorant, to are they are getting paid to drive away business? Most B&M have limited inventory not even the big boys have everything. Limited inventory is a big reason I go online. I've ordered from five different online stores to get what I want and I'm sure a few orders from europe are in my future. Some B&M's play well against the big boys. Serious cigars does a great job here in Texas and I'm happy to pay sales tax when ordering from them.


Well said, this is closer to what I think and said poorly. I love B & M's but some make you nut's


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## Koach Kuku (Jul 2, 2012)

Oldmso54 said:


> Having just been to the IPCPR show and being exposed to both the "big" and "little" guys I can tell you that I have some insights and opinions that I didn't have before.
> 
> *As mentioned before there are 2 different taxes = the local sales tax that you pay on all kinds of goods and services and the TOBACCO tax that is unique to each state. FL has no extra tax on premium hand rolled cigars - CO has a 40% tax. The B&M in CO pays $4.20 to get the same exact $3 cigar in his store that the B&M in FL pays $3.00 for. Net result - the B&M in CO is paying $1.20 more for the same cigar right off the bat. Other states like NY and CA are even higher.
> 
> ...


Great thoughts.

Something that could help the little guy would be to band together into a purchasing group. For instance if the B&M's in one area would band together and pool resources and become a larger force they could save themselves a lot of money on the price point. Granted they would never be as big as CI but they still could move from a pimple on the elephants @$$ to the giant rash. Instead of me buying a cigar online for 4 dollars and $14 at a B&M maybe its 8-9 bucks at a B&M which with price being down you would hope you could move more product. Just a thought, I'm sure business owners have already thought of this or are currently doing this.

A sad part about these posts are too many customers have had that uncomfortable sales person experience. Too many of us have had that problem, being a new cigar smoker I always asked questions and it seemed like I was bothering the sales person. Everytime I say I'm a new smoker they point me at Ashton, part of the experience is trying things that are new and I constantly try to explain that. Its a frusterating process. The other thing that happens to me is you get overwhelmed as a new smoker in a large humi so I just need some time to read some names find something I've heard was good look around and it takes some time. They stand over you as if your going to steal product so they watch you and its not a relaxing experience. Its never been a truely pleasant experience for me.

I don't think we are dissing the little guys and I don't think we are trying to bash them because I think most of us got our first cigar to our first 50 from a B&M. Once you really want to make this a true hobby its difficult to spend money at a b&m when you can get 3 or 4 times the smokes from the online giants. Think best buy vs Amazon, its part of today's society and a big challange for local owners is to stay in business. The local shops will work for the casual cigar smokers who don't have humidors and aren't invested in this hobby. These local shops IMO make most of their money on cigarette sales and locals who aren't serious cigar smokers who smoke once every month or so, and impluse buy cigars. Like I said just my thoughts.


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## capttrips (Jun 25, 2012)

I think we can all agree that B&Ms serve an important role in the industry. I certainly wouldn't smoke as much if they weren't around. Whether it be a B&M or an online store you can be driven nuts, but I sure the heck prefer to be able to speak face to face with a real live human being.


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## jmj_203 (Mar 16, 2011)

So are we claiming that the internet giants DON"T have massive overhead costs also? You think they don't have to pay employees, electricity, water bills, etc. I would assume their overhead costs are in reality Much Much larger than B&M's. And each area has an advantage, so I don't for one second accept the store owners are these poor little Davy Vs. Goliath types. They have an atmosphere, a place to lounge and relax with friends, the one on one hands on help a customer sometimes needs when being new to a hobby. They need to play up these strengths, just like online giants take advantage of their few strength areas. End my rant, and yes I do visit my b&m at least once a month, about the same frequency I buy online. Its not my fault they store cigars at 72 to 75rh, which makes me buy my own boxes to age in the proper humidity for myself, and i'm not going into how there is no discount for buying an ENTIRE box other than per stick inflated prices there.


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## jswaykos (Oct 26, 2010)

A small issue with some of the arguments here is that we're treating ALL local shops the same. There are five or six legitimate cigar shops by me, and only ONE chooses to 'eat' the cost of tobacco taxes instead of passing it on to the customer. Now, they happen to be the largest of the shops out here (but not as big as a Tampa Humidor, for example), but still - they seemingly choose to make less profit per cigar, but sell more of them. They're not in a touristy area, but the others use that as a crutch, it seems. You know - their cigars cost double the MSRP because of rent, etc. It's the government's fault, they say!!! Booo, taxes! But this other shop doesn't pass them along, so...

Bottom line, each B&M is different. There's a great one by me. A very small percentage of my purchases come from them, but I do buy most of my hard to find stuff from them - Opus X, the Little Monsters, etc. Almost all of my pipe and pipe baccy purchases are from them, too, as they have an extensive selection of that. Same deal with accessories (lighters, cutters, etc.). Sales tax is hardly an issue - I'll a tiny bit more with each purchase.

I do 'get' that local level businesses have "hidden" expenses that the customer can't always see, but I've always felt that a business owner should be aware of that going in. If you want to deal in cigars, they cost $X dollars. Can you sell enough of them to pay the bills? If not, don't sell them.


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## stonecutter2 (Jul 12, 2012)

I buy singles (or 2 or 3) from a B&M. If I want quantity of what I like (5'ers or boxes), I buy online. I bought a box from a B&M a while back and it was just too overpriced for what I got - however....Illinois cigar tax as of 7/1/12 is now doubled from 18% to 36%. That means for me it IS all about the sales tax when shopping online. I can save a lot of money - but I prefer to visit the local shop, and hope to one day sit down in their lounge for a puff. I like that there's a shop in town that lets me browse and ask questions.

The older guy (I assume the owner) in the shop mentioned how much he hated the new tax. I think it's hurting them big time and driving people to shop online more to save big bucks that Illinois will never see - I guess the politicians never thought about that when they doubled the tax stupidly.


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## jswaykos (Oct 26, 2010)

jmj_203 said:


> So are we claiming that the internet giants DON"T have massive overhead costs also? You think they don't have to pay employees, electricity, water bills, etc. I would assume their overhead costs are in reality Much Much larger than B&M's. And each area has an advantage, so I don't for one second accept the store owners are these poor little Davy Vs. Goliath types. They have an atmosphere, a place to lounge and relax with friends, the one on one hands on help a customer sometimes needs when being new to a hobby. They need to play up these strengths, just like online giants take advantage of their few strength areas. End my rant, and yes I do visit my b&m at least once a month, about the same frequency I buy online. Its not my fault they store cigars at 72 to 75rh, which makes me buy my own boxes to age in the proper humidity for myself, and i'm not going into how there is no discount for buying an ENTIRE box other than per stick inflated prices there.


I'm always amused by this, too. There is a TON of overhead involved with these online businesses. You know those free shipping codes everyone tracks down? Yeah - they're free to US, but CI or Cigar.com or whoever has to pick up the tab!! Warehouse space isn't free, neither is a distribution center/system.


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## jswaykos (Oct 26, 2010)

Also - people take issue with buying cigars online vs. in store, but how many of you have bought books through Amazon as you've watched your local Borders go out of business?? I know I'm certainly guilty of that.


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## kra961 (May 16, 2012)

I will go out of my way to support a local B&M right up until the point that I'm being price/service jacked at that point I walk away and never return. Tax's while in some case's are a clear disadvantage however since nobody likes paying for shipping charges its a wash. 

I'll go to a B&M if their prices are not unreasonable like others have said I don't mind paying a bit more for having a local place to buy. But what I'm not going to do is be faced with a paying MSRP +20% or buying from an online source, the online source will win every single time.


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## stonecutter2 (Jul 12, 2012)

Nafod81 said:


> I just wanted to reach out to my fellow BOTL and pose the following question: "Do local B&M's oppose the lack of sales tax on internet transactions, or moreso the availability of online purchases in general?"


I realized I didn't really answer your question. My local B&M just simply thinks the politicians are out of their minds for hiking the tax from 18 to 36%. Hasn't griped to me about internet sales or lack of sales tax on them.


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## fuente~fuente (May 11, 2009)

I'm not totally against online buying. I have & do buy there, although the playing field needs to be evened out a bit more IMO.:nod: What about the guys who live in Timbucktu, B.F.E, who don't have a good B&M to go to? They need sticks too!

I actually think that both need to be there for the industry to stay healthy. Some of you need to either, go find a good, or befriend your B&M's, because the days of even buying online are probably numbered.


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## jswaykos (Oct 26, 2010)

fuente~fuente said:


> ...because the days of even buying online are probably numbered.


I 'll believe that when I see it. If anything, I'm betting that EVERYONE will have to start paying sales tax on any and all online transactions. Granted, we're already supposed to report it, but I can see it being taken from the site, going forward.

As for local shops - it's unfortunate that there are so many BAD ones that keep people from even bothering to find a good place. If the first three places you try out are bad, why think the fourth will be any different? I found my current favorite shop by chance - I'd heard of it and assumed it was just as overpriced as anywhere else in the city. But I stopped in to drop off a pipe for repairs and noticed their pricing. So the four other shops I'd been to previously - all with absurd pricing - kept me from ever visiting this place.


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## thegunslinger (Aug 3, 2012)

I enjoy B&Ms for the ability to shop with senses other than sight. I can feel and smell the cigars. They're the place I will go to buy a single cigar that I want to try or if I don't want more than a couple. But as much as I want to support them, I have to look out for myself as well. I need to keep my costs down. So while I may enjoy a $6+ smoke from the B&M shop once or twice a week, the rest of the week is going to be spent smoking the $2-3 sticks I buy from online vendors.


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## fuente~fuente (May 11, 2009)

jswaykos said:


> I 'll believe that when I see it. If anything, I'm betting that EVERYONE will have to start paying sales tax on any and all online transactions. Granted, we're already supposed to report it, but I can see it being taken from the site, going forward.


I hope your right, because the writing is already on the wall...


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## jswaykos (Oct 26, 2010)

fuente~fuente said:


> I hope your right, because the writing is already on the wall...


Where is some of this writing? Not at all that I don't believe you - I've seen it referenced many times. Still, I would like to read more on it. Tobacco is big business (duh!), the government wants a piece of it... or a bigger piece. Not that that's right or wrong, but with such a large piece of this industry (the sales) NOT being taxed, it's only natural that the gov't wants what they're missing out on.


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## Cigar Noob (May 22, 2011)

The only issue I have with local B&Ms is douchiness, and trying to tell me they have plume. To pay more you need to get more. Being an arrogant turd thinking you are better than the consumer, or you know more, or you are cooler is not going to win customers. One of the stores I go to hires people that are personable, the manager said he can teach them about cigars later. This is where I think many/most/some B&Ms go about staffing wrong. They pick people that are in to cigars 1st, and their ability to communicate is way down the list or not on it. My favorite is a store here where the guy had his chest puffed out, his pistol on his hip, the biggest cigar the store had in his mouth and he was mean muggin like crazy. That is a certifiable DB that cares only about himself, not the products or the customers. Haven't been back since.



Oldmso54 said:


> FL has no extra tax on premium hand rolled cigars - CO has a 40% tax. The B&M in CO pays $4.20 to get the same exact $3 cigar in his store that the B&M in FL pays $3.00 for. Net result - the B&M in CO is paying $1.20 more for the same cigar right off the bat. Other states like NY and CA are even higher.


Are you saying that taxes are paid in advance in Colorado? That is not how a typical tax works. The tax is paid/charged when the consumer buys it for sales tax as well as tobacco tax here. The overhead is no different, just the price you charge for the same product is.



johnb said:


> And the other thing is a b&m has much greater overhead





jmj_203 said:


> So are we claiming that the internet giants DON"T have massive overhead costs also?


I think too many people are drinking the kool-aid the B&M feeds them rather than thinking it out. Like jmj points out they have incredible overhead. I bet the costs of doing business in a month for the big boys are more than the yearly revenue of most B&Ms.


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## fuente~fuente (May 11, 2009)

jswaykos said:


> Where is some of this writing? Not at all that I don't believe you - I've seen it referenced many times. Still, I would like to read more on it. Tobacco is big business (duh!), the government wants a piece of it... or a bigger piece. Not that that's right or wrong, but with such a large piece of this industry (the sales) NOT being taxed, it's only natural that the gov't wants what they're missing out on.


No Joe... They want to kill it by regulating it to death. What in our government recently has made you think they can, & will stay out of their own way?

There are a lot of people in the cigar _making_ business who I believe, & also know a lot more than I do, who are telling us this. I'm not just making it up brother...


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## jswaykos (Oct 26, 2010)

Here's some: FDA Regulation Could Doom Cigar Shops - Hit & Run : Reason.com

I don't know how I feel about it all. My guess would still be a stricter regulation of online sales before they'd outright ban anything. Lots of scare tactics coming from both sides, me thinks!


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## fuente~fuente (May 11, 2009)

jswaykos said:


> Here's some: FDA Regulation Could Doom Cigar Shops - Hit & Run : Reason.com
> 
> I don't know how I feel about it all. My guess would still be a stricter regulation of online sales before they'd outright ban anything. Lots of scare tactics coming from both sides, me thinks!


Like I said before... If we want to continue to enjoy good smokes at a good cost, then both need to survive IMO. My vote goes to cigars! :smoke:


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## jswaykos (Oct 26, 2010)

fuente~fuente said:


> Like I said before... If we want to continue to enjoy good smokes at a good cost, then both need to survive IMO. My vote goes to cigars! :smoke:


+1!!! I'll smoke to that!


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## Ken Hastings (Jun 28, 2012)

I don't know about tobacco but when I was involved with retail alcohol sales we paid the wholesaler COD (COD was a state requirement) and all state taxes were included all we collected was sales tax.


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## KcJason1 (Oct 20, 2010)

I will go out of my way to support locsl b&m's as well... Except for two who are linked in kc.. 
A. The owner is greedy arsch who ran off all his good staff and clientele.
B. He charges $2 more per stick than all other b&m's in town..


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## lasix (Mar 25, 2012)

I purchase online, but I love to support my local BM who gives me a 10% discount for buying from them.


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## Kevin Keith (Jan 24, 2010)

Cigar Noob said:


> The only issue I have with local B&Ms is douchiness, and trying to tell me they have plume. To pay more you need to get more. Being an arrogant turd thinking you are better than the consumer, or you know more, or you are cooler is not going to win customers.


I know, right? I mean, c'mon, it's just rotten rolled up leaves, not rocket science! Unless you're the blender or roller each of us can know as much as the next feller, even a BM owner.


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## Oldmso54 (Jul 31, 2010)

[Are you saying that taxes are paid in advance in Colorado? That is not how a typical tax works. The tax is paid/charged when the consumer buys it for sales tax as well as tobacco tax here. The overhead is no different, just the price you charge for the same product is.] Cigar Noob statement

I don't want to overstep my limited knowledge here as others (especially those in CO) can explain it exactly... but there are two different taxes = a sales tax that is paid at the consumer level and varies from state to state but is usually only single digits and then a TOBACCO tax that the purchaser of the tobacco has to pay the instant he takes possession of it - ie. the B&M.

Since there is no TOBACCO tax on premium, handrolled cigars in FL if the wholesale price of the cigar is $3 then that's what a FL B&M pays for the stick. The B&M in CO gets the wholesale price of $3 also... but the minute he takes possession of it the State Tobacco Tax must be paid by the B&M so that same $3 stick just cost him $4.20 to put on his shelf!

So if I live in FL and I double the margin on that stick I can sell it for $6 and you pay sales tax (7%) when you buy it.
If I live in CO and I double the margin on the same stick I have to sell it for $7.40 to make the same $3 profit, and you pay whatever sales tax is in CO when you buy it.

NY supposedly has a 75% TOBACCO tax from what I hear - CA is also very high. The State imposed TOBACCO tax is what is making the playing field uneven for certain B&M's = that's my point. I'm lucky to live in FL where we don't get hit with those State Tobacco Taxes but I feel for the local B&M's in high tax areas that are just trying to make a living with a burdensome and uneven tax structure. :dunno: Thats just me and MHO.


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## jswaykos (Oct 26, 2010)

Oldmso54 said:


> NY supposedly has a 75% TOBACCO tax from what I hear - CA is also very high. The State imposed TOBACCO tax is what is making the playing field uneven for certain B&M's = that's my point. I'm lucky to live in FL where we don't get hit with those State Tobacco Taxes but I feel for the local B&M's in high tax areas that are just trying to make a living with a burdensome and uneven tax structure. :dunno: Thats just me and MHO.


Agreed! Is it fair that B&Ms in different states pay different tobacco taxes? Not at all. But nobody forced those B&Ms to open, if they're new then it's a problem that they (should've) knowingly took on. Still, most places here don't charge 'just' the extra buck or whatever for tax. They pass along all overhead expenses, too. I get that they need to keep the doors open, but if selling cigars at MSRP plus whatever tobacco taxes isn't feasible, it's not MY burden to make it so. That's how I honestly feel about it.

There is ONE shop that does not pass along ALL of the expenses to the customer, so if they can manage (and be, seemingly, quite successful), then so can the other shops. Or so I would think. I know that if they've got something in stock, I'll get it for whatever, say, Tampa Humidor is charging in MOST instances. I have no idea where they're making up the money, but that was their problem from the beginning, not mine.


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## Cigar Noob (May 22, 2011)

So you are saying if I were to have a B&M in Colorado mail me cigars I would be paying those taxes? From my experience the consumer only pays local tobacco tax when they buy it in that state. They can build it into their price if they want but it isn't paid up front. Most stores here toss the 22 cents on when you check out on top of out 9+% sales tax. The tax you are speaking of is probably how it works with cigarettes where it is paid up front, probably by the distributor and then just factored into the price along down the line. The tricky part is some states could do it either way so there probably isn't a blanket answer for everywhere but if they are paying up front, that is being collected by the distributor and the B&M isn't cutting a check to the gubmint for every order they receive. I would assume though that a majority of tobacco taxes are collected based on sales, not on purchases.


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## cmitch (Aug 7, 2012)

I'm an active member in another forum but this discussion caught my eye and felt compelled to respond.
Firstly, I walked away from a B&M I did regular business with for 2 years because the owner decided he should be able to control his customers as if they were children being ushered into the principal's office. But, I do appreciate legitimate B&M's who have their customers in their minds at first thought. As a business owner myself, I thought I could add some info to this.

B&M's don't appreciate the unlevel playing field they have with on line retailers. Online retailers send out sticks direct where no state sales tax and tobacco tax is collected. This disadvantage cost the B&M a retail position of approx. 15 to 30% depending on the state. They have overhead such as tobacconists, utilities, phone, satellite or cable for their lounge along with square footage dedicated to their lounge. B&M's probably have the lowest square footage to sales ratio of any kind of retailer which drives the price of their product up. Online retailers often have a B&M showroom and it's quite advantageous for them to sell online because it boosts their own sales figures and helps to support their B&M. 

IF I had a decent B&M that appreciated my patronage, I'd support them. Hoping we get one real soon as there is interest to do so.


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## fuente~fuente (May 11, 2009)

KcJason1 said:


> I will go out of my way to support locsl b&m's as well... Except for two who are linked in kc..
> A. The owner is greedy arsch who ran off all his good staff and clientele.
> B. He charges $2 more per stick than all other b&m's in town..


Fair... No one expects anyone to buy from an "ash-hole". :tongue1:


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## fuente~fuente (May 11, 2009)

cmitch said:


> I'm an active member in another forum but this discussion caught my eye and felt compelled to respond.
> Firstly, I walked away from a B&M I did regular business with for 2 years because the owner decided he should be able to control his customers as if they were children being ushered into the principal's office. But, I do appreciate legitimate B&M's who have their customers in their minds at first thought. As a business owner myself, I thought I could add some info to this.
> 
> B&M's don't appreciate the unlevel playing field they have with on line retailers. Online retailers send out sticks direct where no state sales tax and tobacco tax is collected. This disadvantage cost the B&M a retail position of approx. 15 to 30% depending on the state. They have overhead such as tobacconists, utilities, phone, satellite or cable for their lounge along with square footage dedicated to their lounge. B&M's probably have the lowest square footage to sales ratio of any kind of retailer which drives the price of their product up. Online retailers often have a B&M showroom and it's quite advantageous for them to sell online because it boosts their own sales figures and helps to support their B&M.
> ...


Where are you in Bama Clayton?


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## bazookajoe8 (Apr 6, 2012)

you guys are getting confused on the difference in taxes. you are right in saying that the local sales tax is not paid from out of state buyers.

but there is the wholesale tobacco tax that we have to pay as a retailer to the state for bringing the tobacco in. for instance for whatever i order, i pay an extra 40% on top of it for our tobacco tax. so instantly my cost per stick is 40% more than those say in Florida where there is no tobacco tax. 

so a $3 cost in fl is $4.20 cost for me. $1.20 doesnt seem like a lot per stick but times that by 1000 and that cost is a lot more than i can absorb or other b&m can absorb. 

so if you live in a state with no taxes then great. if you are looking for the best deals then the online guys are great. Im not here to bash other businesses or anyone for that matter. just hopefully clear some confusion for everyone if you think that we as a b&m are trying to gouge the consumers.


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## ghe-cl (Apr 9, 2005)

Bazookajoe8 explained it clearly and succinctly. The tobacco tax is a wholesale tax. It isn't charged like a sales tax at the point of sale but before the customer makes the purchase. They are completely different taxes, decided upon by each individual state, as are all state taxes. That's why they differ from state to state, as do income tax rates, sales tax rates, etc.


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## Nafod81 (Aug 6, 2012)

ghe said:


> I believe you're confusing taxes. The major difference in retail prices in most states and online sales is the state tax imposed on cigars, not the lack of sales tax charged by Internet vendors. The tax on cigars varies from state to state and I'm certain that Kansas and Missouri tax cigars. There is no additional cigar tax levied in Pennsylvania and Florida (and one other state as well, I believe) and that's why so many of the big catalog operations are in those states.


Ghe,

Thanks for bringing this up. I spoke incorrectly, KS levies a 10% tax on wholesale prices, and as far as I can MO does not have a specific tax on cigars, or if they do it isn't clearly worded on the Department of Revenue website. However I still don't believe that warrants a 30-40% markup on MSRP and a measily 5% off on box purchases.

I'm not mad at B&M's, and my local ones certainly aren't representative of them all. It's just their pricing is set-up as if we get information from the pony express. A Box of Cohiba Corona Minor's cost $220, I can get these on-line for $128. It doesn't take much investigation to figure out that the price is grossly inflated.

Additionally I'd like to warn others. Tax situations similar to NY's 75%, IL 36%, 40% CO, (ridiculously high percentage)% CA etc are not about generating revenue. They are about modifying behaviour. I'd say any tax over 20% is designed to decrease demand not tap into a revenue stream.


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## Btubes18 (Aug 21, 2011)

I have gone to three different cigar shops in the area and I feel it's all about customer service.

The first one I went to, the salesman was a complete jerk and had absolutely no interest in selling me anything. After about 5 minutes I walked out and didnt buy a thing and will never go back.

The second one, had probably the nicest salesman and was extremely knowledgeable, basically bent over backwards to ensure I was taken care of. I will definitely return even though prices were high, but they had a great selection. You can imagine this store has done extremely well and was packed.

The third, was a great experience as well, but the seller was again not very helpful nor interested. However, the louge and clients in there were extremely nice and welcoming. Will return.

To me it's all about customer service, and with online retailers in my experience has been top notch. Actually, went to the CI warehouse and those guys were extremely nice.

I will reach out to local shops, but to be honest the people that sell at those shops are generally in my are not to friendly and deters me for shopping there. Maybe because I am a younger guy they get this entitlement to treat me as kid.

Don't think it's about the taxes, it's more about the customer experience.


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## GIBrett (Jul 29, 2012)

I will always go to my local B&M! I don't buy boxes from there because it's so much more expensive but I buy all my singles from there. I don't smoke at home much and smoke 80% of my cigars at my B&M. They don't give me any crap if I walk in and only smoke my own sticks because over time I've made friends with everyone that goes in there and they know that I usually pick something up while I'm there.


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## BengalMan (Aug 13, 2007)

bazookajoe8 said:


> you guys are getting confused on the difference in taxes. you are right in saying that the local sales tax is not paid from out of state buyers.
> 
> but there is the wholesale tobacco tax that we have to pay as a retailer to the state for bringing the tobacco in. for instance for whatever i order, i pay an extra 40% on top of it for our tobacco tax. so instantly my cost per stick is 40% more than those say in Florida where there is no tobacco tax.
> 
> ...


What you are getting confused on is that based on state law, if you ship the cigars out of state, you get a refund on the OTP (other tobacco products tax) that you paid. Example:

-Cigar box A has a wholesale cost of $100, and a retail MSRP of $200 and the B&M resides in Michigan with a 32% OTP tax
-At the end of the month that the B&M receives the box of cigars they have to file their OTP with the state, and a few days later cut them a check.
-Box A now has a cost of $132. Most retailers take said box, and put them on the shelf with a box price of $264 which is wholesale+tax+keystone. If you buy the full box in the shop, you may get 5-20% off.
-If the retailer has a website and Joe in WI buys the box of cigars and the retailer ships them to WI, the retailer can file for a refund on the initial $32 that they paid as these cigars technically were sold to someone out of state.

Here's where things get interesting. Take the same scenario above, and put the retailer in PA, FL, or TX (where almost all the major online retailers are). These states have no OTP. So they can charge lets say $170 for box A to everyone, particularly that guy in MI. How? Well the Michigan guy has to buy box A for $264 - lets say 15% = $224.40 + 7% sales tax = $240.11. The online retailer, who never has to pay tax has box A for $200 - 15% = $170 + 0% sales tax + free shipping (they eat the shipping costs and make up for it in volume) = a box of cigars that would normally cost the Michigan customer $240.11, well, he's getting it for $170, or $70.11 CHEAPER.

The fact is that the state tobacco taxes are awful, and the loopholes for the online retailers residing in non tax states are even worse. In the end, all tobacco retailers are in this together. I understand businesses models evolve, but this entire industry was built on B&M's. They provide in person customer service, the ability to purchase single sticks immediately, build relationships with customers and friends alike in the lounge, and be catered to based on your likes and dislikes. If you don't have a B&M that offers you all of the aforementioned characteristics, then don't give them your business. But if you do, then you'll pay a little more for all the benefits that they bring to you.



ghe said:


> Bazookajoe8 explained it clearly and succinctly. The tobacco tax is a wholesale tax. It isn't charged like a sales tax at the point of sale but before the customer makes the purchase. They are completely different taxes, decided upon by each individual state, as are all state taxes. That's why they differ from state to state, as do income tax rates, sales tax rates, etc.


Correct, however, much like with Amazon, the states will eventually catch on. Look at BestBuy.com, you buy something on there, they make you pay sales tax. Why, because there is a best buy in every state. Look at EBay. If you buy something from someone that lives in your state, and follows the law, you pay sales tax. Look at Amazon. As they continue to expand and put warehouses and distribution centers in more and more states, if you happen to live in one of those states, you pay sales tax. I have a feeling cigars may not be much different soon.



Nafod81 said:


> Ghe,
> 
> Thanks for bringing this up. I spoke incorrectly, KS levies a 10% tax on wholesale prices, and as far as I can MO does not have a specific tax on cigars, or if they do it isn't clearly worded on the Department of Revenue website. However I still don't believe that warrants a 30-40% markup on MSRP and a measily 5% off on box purchases.
> 
> ...


It's not what you think is warranted or not. Do you think the B&M's want to pay this tax? Do you think they want to lose business to online retailers and catalogs? Nope. If your a B&M owner, you've dumped all your savings into this shop and then the state passes a debilitating tax on your livelihood, you need to adapt. You may need to offer better service, small batch exclusives, or whatever, but your going to do what you can to fight and survive (within your means!). The tax may be about modifying behavior, fine, so by turning your back on a local B&M and taking your business out of state, they've won. Once again, this is the state taxing, NOT THE B&M.

As far as your price comparison, it's also grossly inflated in more ways than one. It's not black and white (as I explained above), and many factors need to be considered, primarily wholesale price and MSRP. Other factors that effect price include state OTP, city sales tax, shipping costs if buying from a retailer, and discount percentage (which goes back to MSRP).

Like I said, it's not as cut and dry as you make it out to be and there are many factors that need to be taken into consideration.

In the end, I'm not here to try and sway anyone's opinion either for or against B&M or online retailers. They both have their places in this industry. But there is a much bigger picture than many realize.


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## Null (Dec 4, 2011)

Initially I made the majority of my cigar purchases online, but over time I have come to appreciate the social aspect of the hobby more and more. B&Ms for me are about being able to meet people who share a common interest, smoke in a place where it is acceptable, and of course, personal customer service from the shop itself. I would rather go to my B&M to smoke than sit on my porch by myself. When I think about this way, I feel like price becomes a lesser issue. If I have to pay a few dollars more, so be it--I am supporting the store where I hang out. Provided you have a B&M in your area where you have friends, receive good service from the employees, and have a comfortable atmosphere where you can relax, then I cannot see how you would not want to support it. At this point all I buy online is hard-to-find sticks like Liga Privada or limited editions.


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## GIBrett (Jul 29, 2012)

^+1 well said exactly how I feel


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## JDC20 (Feb 11, 2004)

Nafod81 said:


> Ghe,
> 
> Thanks for bringing this up. I spoke incorrectly, KS levies a 10% tax on wholesale prices, and as far as I can MO does not have a specific tax on cigars, or if they do it isn't clearly worded on the Department of Revenue website. However I still don't believe that warrants a 30-40% markup on MSRP and a measily 5% off on box purchases.


The tax in most states is referred to as the OTP tax, meaning Other Tobacco Products, ie. not cigarettes. Missouris OTP is 10% just like Kansas. There is currently a bill in the MO House to raise the tax to 30%.


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## ghe-cl (Apr 9, 2005)

Couple of final points from me: 1) According to what I see on the Missouri Dept. of Revenue's Web page, "Other tobacco products [which includes cigars] are taxed at a rate of 10 percent of the manufacturer's invoice price before discounts and deals." 2) The determination that a seller does not have to collect state sales taxes from sales in states in which it does not have a physical operation stems from a 1992 Supreme Court ruling involving a mail-order company. Congress can change that by passing legislation, which has been introduced but never approved. There is considerable movement among states nowadays to push for such legislation because they want the revenue and many observers believe it will come to pass in no more than a few years. 3) I believe all states that charge a tax on cigars and other tobacco products do it before the retail sales point, as does the federal government. I'd be interested in knowing if there is as state that charges it at the retail level as is done with a sales tax; that would be a new one on me.


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## Nafod81 (Aug 6, 2012)

BengalMan said:


> <SNIP>
> 
> <SNIP>
> 
> ...


Bengal,

Thanks I found your post VERY informative. However, I'd like to clarify a few things.

-I'm not blaming the taxes on the local B&M's. It would take more than a lunatic to support heavy handed taxes on their own product. The point I am trying to get across is the individuals in state governments that support this nonsense are not concerned about destroying jobs, or additional state revenue. They want to eradicate tobacco use from the citizenry and see that users have migrated from heavily taxed cigarettes to smokeless, cigars, pipes etc. I'd encourage concerned citizens to call them out on it. These taxes are not about plugging a gap in the state budget. They are about making our hobby expensive to the point where it becomes unsustainable for the average joe.

-I do support my local B&M, generally on a weekly basis. I don't buy singles online, and typically purchase ~12 of a particular brand before buying into a box. That being said I find the local prices on boxes to be ludicrous and the prices on singles to be a mixed bag. It's interesting the B&M in the high income end of town is overpriced in general but sells Padron's and Liga's "fairly cheap". On the other hand the B&M that is more centrally located sells everything for a more reasonable price but charges an arm and a leg for the premium brands. I would happily purchase boxes here at a reasonable markup over the online vendors, within say 15-20% markup (excluding sales tax) But that isn't what they ask. I've seen many say they'd happily pay an extra dollar or two per cigar, but that's not what I'm dealing with. It's generally $4-$6 a cigar on a per box purchase and this just doesn't make sense.

-Another point to consider is my go to online vendor is a local B&M based in Albany NY. I'd imagine with a 75% mark up on local sales at least half (if not more) his business is out of state.


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## mata777 (Jul 11, 2011)

The major reason I don't buy from local b&m's is that the selection sucks and the prices are usually 80-100% higher than buying online shipped. Another thing is that I have failed to locate a b&m that stocks what I like to smoke with 2-4 years of age on the product. I buy smokes to age and enjoy in the future.


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## Nafod81 (Aug 6, 2012)

ghe said:


> Couple of final points from me: 1) According to what I see on the Missouri Dept. of Revenue's Web page, "Other tobacco products [which includes cigars] are taxed at a rate of 10 percent of the manufacturer's invoice price before discounts and deals." 2) The determination that a seller does not have to collect state sales taxes from sales in states in which it does not have a physical operation stems from a 1992 Supreme Court ruling involving a mail-order company. Congress can change that by passing legislation, which has been introduced but never approved. There is considerable movement among states nowadays to push for such legislation because they want the revenue and many observers believe it will come to pass in no more than a few years. 3) I believe all states that charge a tax on cigars and other tobacco products do it before the retail sales point, as does the federal government. I'd be interested in knowing if there is as state that charges it at the retail level as is done with a sales tax; that would be a new one on me.


Order something from Pipesandcigars--dot--com ,well don't order it but take it to checkout. This vendor is based in Albany NY you will see a warning that sales within NY require a 75% tax which will be added after the transaction. Sounds like what you're looking for.


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## bazookajoe8 (Apr 6, 2012)

@Bengalman, you are half correct. For me when i bring the tobacco into my shop in Colorado, i have to pay the 40% OTP tax. If i sell to a retailer outside of colorado then on the next quarter i can write off the tax. if i sell to a regular consumer then i cannot write that off. 

maybe different states have different laws, but it should be about the same everywhere


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## DarrelMorris (Feb 7, 2012)

This has been an interesting discussion. I have always believed in the "low overhead" of online retailers, but I guess this just isn't true anymore. Years ago when I worked for a cutlery wholesaler we drop shipped a lot of products for online dealers who had almost no overhead. They worked from their home and had little or no overhead cost except maintaining their web site. I just never really thought about it in relation to cigars. It makes sense that cigar dealers would need to maintain inventory to be able to ship reliably, which means warehouse and payroll costs that would be comparable to a B&M.


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## ghe-cl (Apr 9, 2005)

Nafod81 said:


> Order something from Pipesandcigars--dot--com ,well don't order it but take it to checkout. This vendor is based in Albany NY you will see a warning that sales within NY require a 75% tax which will be added after the transaction. Sounds like what you're looking for.


I can't tell you what that retailer is doing, but according to the NY Dept. of Revenue, the tax on cigars is assessed like the state's tax on other tobacco products. The company that brings the cigars into New York state has to pay the tax. It is collected before the cigars hit retail shelves. How the retailer wants to handle it is his choice: include the tax cost in the price of the cigars or eat all or part of the cost of the tax.


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## cmitch (Aug 7, 2012)

fuente~fuente said:


> Where are you in Bama Clayton?


Northwest Alabama. I frequent The Cigar Room in Madison.


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## BengalMan (Aug 13, 2007)

Duplicate post


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## BengalMan (Aug 13, 2007)

bazookajoe8 said:


> @Bengalman, you are half correct. For me when i bring the tobacco into my shop in Colorado, i have to pay the 40% OTP tax. If i sell to a retailer outside of colorado then on the next quarter i can write off the tax. if i sell to a regular consumer then i cannot write that off.
> 
> maybe different states have different laws, but it should be about the same everywhere


I thought that's what I said? You pay OTP on the product that you purchase and gets shipped to you as a retailer. If you sell it to someone within CO online, or at your B&M, then that 40% (in your case) stays. If you sell those cigars to someone outside of CO, then you get a refund on the 40% OTP that you paid.


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## k-morelli (Jun 22, 2011)

i love to save money just like the next guy but i don't think a few bucks saved is that big a deal when you're dealing with the experience you have at a B&M. take Holt's in philly as an example, as far as prices go, they are almost spot on with online prices and their selection is gigantic with a decent amount of HTF/limited smokes and nothing online is like opening the walk-in doors and just browsing for a little bit and picking up a stick and feeling it. now some online retailers have great customer service but i haven't experienced any better customer service than that of Holt's. now I will say that i prefer to buy samplers online due to the variety and not all of the B&Ms in my area carry every stick i'm searching for so online has its benefits in those respects. in the end, I try to spread my business all around from online to B&Ms as well as retail locations of online sites like CI Superstore, but nothing beats walking into a new B&M (i drive for work and come across a lot of different stores) and seeing something that is HTF in my immediate area.


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## JPinDC (Feb 14, 2008)

mata777 said:


> The major reason I don't buy from local b&m's is that the selection sucks and the prices are usually 80-100% higher than buying online shipped. Another thing is that I have failed to locate a b&m that stocks what I like to smoke with 2-4 years of age on the product. I buy smokes to age and enjoy in the future.


This, I mean seriously stop with the 'support your local businesses junk. We should be buying the best products we can get for a price we are comfortable with, regardless of how or who. I buy from the same BM here in VA when I want something now instead of waiting on mail order because I like the shop owner and eat the cost for that service and need. I also hit my favorite online retailers when they have free shipping offers.


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## bazookajoe8 (Apr 6, 2012)

BengalMan said:


> I thought that's what I said? You pay OTP on the product that you purchase and gets shipped to you as a retailer. If you sell it to someone within CO online, or at your B&M, then that 40% (in your case) stays. If you sell those cigars to someone outside of CO, then you get a refund on the 40% OTP that you paid.


thats not what i said. If i sell online to a regular consumer out of state, i still have to pay the OTP tax. If i sell it to a retailer outside of the the state then i get the refund on the OTP tax.


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## Cigar Noob (May 22, 2011)

That seems like a CO only situation. Online retailers in NY do not pass along their wholesale tax to online buyers.


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## bazookajoe8 (Apr 6, 2012)

Cigar Noob said:


> That seems like a CO only situation. Online retailers in NY do not pass along their wholesale tax to online buyers.


the only way they can get around the tax is if the tobacco never enters NY. my only guess is that they might be shipping it from somewhere else or drop shipping it.


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## FNA (Jan 18, 2007)

As so often happens, I am rather astounded by the amount of cigar shops that people here allege to be staffed by a-holes and douche bags.

There are about 5 local shops I stop at occasionally and I generally will drop in to a place I've never seen before. Everybody everywhere is nice and friendly to me. While I don't complain about prices, I have asked for and received discounts for quantity. 

If you are treated badly by a lot of people in the business of making a living by dealing with the public, do you ever wonder if maybe you aren't looking the wrong way for the problem? Just saying. In various threads I read about all the a-holes selling cigars or frequenting lounges and making newcomers uncomfortable. Doesn't happen to me. Of course, I am from NJ/ Phila. area and this area is nationally known for how polite, warm and friendly we are.


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## Koach Kuku (Jul 2, 2012)

FNA said:


> As so often happens, I am rather astounded by the amount of cigar shops that people here allege to be staffed by a-holes and douche bags.
> 
> There are about 5 local shops I stop at occasionally and I generally will drop in to a place I've never seen before. Everybody everywhere is nice and friendly to me. While I don't complain about prices, I have asked for and received discounts for quantity.
> 
> If you are treated badly by a lot of people in the business of making a living by dealing with the public, do you ever wonder if maybe you aren't looking the wrong way for the problem? Just saying. In various threads I read about all the a-holes selling cigars or frequenting lounges and making newcomers uncomfortable. Doesn't happen to me. Of course, I am from NJ/ Phila. area and this area is nationally known for how polite, warm and friendly we are.


Lol... right...

but honestly I'm from chicago area and most people and places have great service, just yet to be in too many cigar shops that are great. some are ok some bad and 1 decent.


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## bazookajoe8 (Apr 6, 2012)

for me its all about the customers. make them feel special and they will be a customer for life. They will tell their friends and so on. its the main reason why i work everyday in my shop. i need to know that all customers are happy when they leave. i will always go above and beyond to make sure that happens 110%. 

the repeat business is what keeps us alive. its sad to hear about so many shops that have bad customer service.


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## fuente~fuente (May 11, 2009)

bazookajoe8 said:


> for me its all about the customers. make them feel special and they will be a customer for life. They will tell their friends and so on. its the main reason why i work everyday in my shop. i need to know that all customers are happy when they leave. i will always go above and beyond to make sure that happens 110%.
> 
> the repeat business is what keeps us alive. its sad to hear about so many shops that have bad customer service.


Couldn't have said it better Joe...

Although there is a bit of truth sprinkled into FNA's above post. There are a some pretty bad consumers out there too lol. I've did a lot of retail & customer service in my life, & while it's true that customer service isn't what it used to be, the customer isn't what they used to be either. There are a few more bad eggs than what there used to be on that side too. :lol:

Thank God just about all mine are fantastic!


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## bazookajoe8 (Apr 6, 2012)

fuente~fuente said:


> Couldn't have said it better Joe...
> 
> Although there is a bit of truth sprinkled into FNA's above post. There are a some pretty bad consumers out there too lol. I've did a lot of retail & customer service in my life, & while it's true that customer service isn't what it used to be, the customer isn't what they used to be either. There are a few more bad eggs than what there used to be on that side too. :lol:


yea its true that there are the bad consumers out there. but for me, i know that im gonna see them for a few minutes tops. so i just let it go and dont worry about it too much. most likely you wont see them again anyways.


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## fuente~fuente (May 11, 2009)

bazookajoe8 said:


> yea its true that there are the bad consumers out there. but for me, i know that im gonna see them for a few minutes tops. so i just let it go and dont worry about it too much. most likely you wont see them again anyways.


I used to be in the golf business... The one guy that would go out of his way to make my day, & that I would always love to see, well.....that guy comes in once every blue moon. The guy that seems like he hates the world & who seems like they just want to ruin someones day.....that guy comes in every day. :lol:

I LOVE the cigar business! There are A LOT fewer of those guys. So I thank all of you here! :yo: :lol:


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

A B& M is a luxury a place to relax and share good times with friends and acquaintances. A social function with no equal that is what you pay for! If you want a bargain go online where they don't have the overhead of a business trying to make a buck! My 2 cents!


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## GregS (May 8, 2012)

The only reason I'll even go in to the local B & M these days is to window shop and quietly chuckle at how utterly un-knoweldgeable the salespeople are.

G


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## Koach Kuku (Jul 2, 2012)

TonyBrooklyn said:


> A B& M is a luxury a place to relax and share good times with friends and acquaintances. A social function with no equal that is what you pay for! If you want a bargain go online where they don't have the overhead of a business trying to make a buck! My 2 cents!


Seriously not that again... read the first 100 posts.. all businesses have overhead. all of them are trying to make a buck. i have yet to have that great experience in a b&m that you are talking about. 
bad sales people ruin these experiences. we pay our hard earned money at these b&m would like to be treated with diginity. it is a luxury and its not one that im going to spend my money on when i have my own house or place to smoke.. comfy chairs and big screens arent only at b&ms (with that said when owners are around its a lot better they are much nicer and easier to deal with)


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## fuente~fuente (May 11, 2009)

Koach Kuku said:


> Seriously not that again... read the first 100 posts.. all businesses have overhead. all of them are trying to make a buck. i have yet to have that great experience in a b&m that you are talking about.
> bad sales people ruin these experiences. we pay our hard earned money at these b&m would like to be treated with diginity. it is a luxury and its not one that im going to spend my money on when i have my own house or place to smoke.. comfy chairs and big screens arent only at b&ms (with that said when owners are around its a lot better they are much nicer and easier to deal with)


You should come to my place Kevin!


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## Koach Kuku (Jul 2, 2012)

fuente~fuente said:


> You should come to my place Kevin!


I would love to, too bad its in Alabama.


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## fuente~fuente (May 11, 2009)

GregS said:


> The only reason I'll even go in to the local B & M these days is to window shop and quietly chuckle at how utterly un-knoweldgeable the salespeople are.
> 
> G


Again... You should come to my place Greg! :tongue1:


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## fuente~fuente (May 11, 2009)

Koach Kuku said:


> I would love to, too bad its in Alabama.


Oh c'mon... It's only what, 700-800 miles?


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## fuente~fuente (May 11, 2009)

Double Post :mmph:


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## GregS (May 8, 2012)

fuente~fuente said:


> Again... You should come to my place Greg! :tongue1:


Always wanted to go to Alabama!


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## bazookajoe8 (Apr 6, 2012)

GregS said:


> Always wanted to go to Alabama!


you can always come here too!


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## fuente~fuente (May 11, 2009)

GregS said:


> Always wanted to go to Alabama!


We accept Canucks with open arms here. :bounce:


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## GregS (May 8, 2012)

bazookajoe8 said:


> you can always come here too!


Some nice fishing in Colorado I hear!


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## Cigar Noob (May 22, 2011)

bazookajoe8 said:


> the only way they can get around the tax is if the tobacco never enters NY. my only guess is that they might be shipping it from somewhere else or drop shipping it.


I think you are 100% correct. The place I am thinking of is based in PA, but has a NY location. I bet all of their online business is done through PA. Thanks for the info Joe!



GregS said:


> Always wanted to go to Alabama!


ound:


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

Koach Kuku said:


> Seriously not that again... read the first 100 posts.. all businesses have overhead. all of them are trying to make a buck. i have yet to have that great experience in a b&m that you are talking about.
> bad sales people ruin these experiences. we pay our hard earned money at these b&m would like to be treated with diginity. it is a luxury and its not one that im going to spend my money on when i have my own house or place to smoke.. comfy chairs and big screens arent only at b&ms (with that said when owners are around its a lot better they are much nicer and easier to deal with)


Sorry to hear you have such lousy B&M's where you live take a trip into the city of Chicago. I actually have been in Chicago many times about 18 or 20 to be exact i found plenty of places to smoke and plenty of knowledgeable people. In fact one of the nicest friendliest places i was at is still there today!
*Jack Schwartz Importer*
141 West Jackson Blvd.
Chicago, IL 60604 Toll-Free: (888) 733-5225
Local: (312) 782-7898
Fax: (312) 786-0037

*In fact i even used to order from his web site when i smoked non Cubans. 
Anytime i am in Chicago i always stop in and have a cigar!*
Jack Schwartz Importer | Ashton Cigars | Opus X Cigars | Padron Cigars | Davidoff Cigars | AVO Cigars | Elie Bleu Humidors | Dupont Lighters

I hope this helps have a great day!


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## fuente~fuente (May 11, 2009)

Cigar Noob said:


> I think you are 100% correct. The place I am thinking of is based in PA, but has a NY location. I bet all of their online business is done through PA. Thanks for the info Joe!
> 
> ound:


Good thing I'm not from here huh? :fu :thumb:

ound:


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## Cigar Noob (May 22, 2011)

fuente~fuente said:


> Good thing I'm not from here huh? :fu :thumb:
> 
> ound:


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## smelvis (Sep 7, 2009)

TonyBrooklyn said:


> Sorry to hear you have such lousy B&M's where you live take a trip into the city of Chicago. I actually have been in Chicago many times about 18 or 20 to be exact i found plenty of places to smoke and plenty of knowledgeable people. In fact one of the nicest friendliest places i was at is still there today!
> *Jack Schwartz Importer*
> 141 West Jackson Blvd.
> Chicago, IL 60604 Toll-Free: (888) 733-5225
> ...


Man how do you do that I tried to figure it out I found some stuff I would have tried but couldn't figure out the site, Maybe I was on the wrong site?


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

smelvis said:


> Man how do you do that I tried to figure it out I found some stuff I would have tried but couldn't figure out the site, Maybe I was on the wrong site?


Just put what you want in the cart like this.

Your Cart 

*Qty**New
Qty**Item**Price**Total* 1
*Litto Gomez Diez Vintage 2009 (Dominican Republic) 2009 Cubano* 
$10.75$10.75


*Subtotal:* $10.75 *Shipping:* $0.00 *Tax:* $0.00 *Total:* $10.75  


*Calculate Shipping/Tax (Optional): * 
*Zip Code: *

*Shipping Method: * 





Then go to checkout



*Shipping Method *(*Required) 

  
*Billing Information * (*Required)
First Name*Last Name*CompanyEmail*Address 1*Address 2City*State* 
Zip*Phone*Fax
 
 
*Shipping Information * (*Required)

 Same as Billing
  First Name*Last Name*CompanyAddress 1*Address 2City*State* 
Zip*Phone*Fax
 
 
*Payment Information * (*Required)
Credit Card*  
Number*Expiration*
 
 /  

 CV Code* [*?*]  
 
 
*Choose Password *(*Required)
Password*Re-enter*
 
  


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## Ken Hastings (Jun 28, 2012)

What has not been mention is that some B&M are making money hand over fist selling "Menthol Pipe Tobacco" and little white paper tubes to put the "pipe" tobacco in to.


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## fuente~fuente (May 11, 2009)

Ken Hastings said:


> What has not been mention is that some B&M are making money hand over fist selling "Menthol Pipe Tobacco" and little white paper tubes to put the "pipe" tobacco in to.


Some, not all, cuz I don't...


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## Cigar Noob (May 22, 2011)

Ken Hastings said:


> What has not been mention is that some B&M are making money hand over fist selling "Menthol Pipe Tobacco" and little white paper tubes to put the "pipe" tobacco in to.


Don't confuse smoke shop or head shop with B&M cigar shop. I've gone to 10+ shops in town and only know one that sells any pipe tobacco and I would be willing to bet it is the stuff the pipers on here smoke.


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## Ken Hastings (Jun 28, 2012)

Cigar Noob said:


> Don't confuse smoke shop or head shop with B&M cigar shop. I've gone to 10+ shops in town and only know one that sells any pipe tobacco and I would be willing to bet it is the stuff the pipers on here smoke.


Pipe world in Austin is as far from a head shop as you can get. They are a premium cigar and pipe B&M and they get cigarette "pipe" tobacco delivered at what I'd estimate is a 1000# a delivery from what I've witnessed. But then again Austin is Weird!!!


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## Cigar Noob (May 22, 2011)

Ken Hastings said:


> Pipe world in Austin is as far from a head shop as you can get. They are a premium cigar and pipe B&M and they get cigarette "pipe" tobacco delivered at what I'd estimate is a 1000# a delivery from what I've witnessed. But then again Austin is Weird!!!


1000 lbs?!?!?! WOWzer. By cigarette by tobacco do you mean loose tobacco for cigarette machines? Maybe they sell a lot online. In AZ the only place for loose cigarette tobacco is smoke/head shops, guess every state will be different.


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## Ken Hastings (Jun 28, 2012)

Cigar Noob said:


> 1000 lbs?!?!?! WOWzer. By cigarette by tobacco do you mean loose tobacco for cigarette machines? Maybe they sell a lot online. In AZ the only place for loose cigarette tobacco is smoke/head shops, guess every state will be different.


Yes I mean for cigarette machines. Although I remember as a kid people used little hand rolling machines because I lived in europe and there was a high tax burden even back then.


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## Kevin Keith (Jan 24, 2010)

Ken Hastings said:


> Pipe world in Austin is as far from a head shop as you can get...But then again Austin is Weird!!!


And we are under orders to keep it thataway!


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## smelvis (Sep 7, 2009)

TonyBrooklyn said:


> Just put what you want in the cart like this.


Thanks I bet I was on the wrong site it's been awhile but they had some special release something I tried to get and just gave up.


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

smelvis said:


> Thanks I bet I was on the wrong site it's been awhile but they had some special release something I tried to get and just gave up.


Anytime!


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## BurnOne (Feb 26, 2012)

I shop mostly ~99% online. the closest B&Ms are pretty out of the way and i'm a busy guy so i will stop in Very rarely.
I would love to have a B&M closer to shop at but i would probably still buy mostly online and save some $$
and use what i save to support my local liquor store!


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## jmaloneaz (Jun 29, 2012)

I am breaking one of my rules of not reading all of the thread before commenting. I usually don't want to interject (repeat) an idea that has already been posted but at the rate I'm going this thread may have run its course before I finish. Sooooo, I have 2 points to make after agreeing with just about everything everyone has already posted (and I am at p. 6). 1. I think it takes both. Frankly if retail was the only venue I would not be smoking like I am today. I simply couldn't afford it. Online is cheaper for all of the previous mentions. However, I have been to many B&M and they carry by far a wider variety than is available on line. So, I try one or two (or six) from B&M and then buy online what I like. What really sucks is I feel guilty doing that. Because I know for the most part the B&M is trying to make a living also. Besides, you can't taste an online cigar before you buy it (or a box). 2. If business continues to go the way it has been we will be in the era of the 60's-90's when you could only buy major label beer, bourbon, gin, etc. It took a resurgence of the little guy to bring back the variety and quality of brewers to the point where there is much more diversity now. Support both if you can but DO NOT neglect the B&M. The same mentality applies to buying Made in the US. We have been selling off our industry for decades and now people gripe about Chinese made everything. Nobody thought about it because everyone wanted to make/save a buck. Now it is full circle and we, the consumer are paying for it. Off my :anim_soapbox: now. :razz:


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## jmaloneaz (Jun 29, 2012)

Cigar Noob said:


> The only issue I have with local B&Ms is douchiness, and trying to tell me they have plume. To pay more you need to get more. Being an arrogant turd thinking you are better than the consumer, or you know more, or you are cooler is not going to win customers. One of the stores I go to hires people that are personable, the manager said he can teach them about cigars later. This is where I think many/most/some B&Ms go about staffing wrong. They pick people that are in to cigars 1st, and their ability to communicate is way down the list or not on it. My favorite is a store here where the guy had his chest puffed out, his pistol on his hip, the biggest cigar the store had in his mouth and he was mean muggin like crazy. That is a certifiable DB that cares only about himself, not the products or the customers. Haven't been back since.
> Are you saying that taxes are paid in advance in Colorado? That is not how a typical tax works. The tax is paid/charged when the consumer buys it for sales tax as well as tobacco tax here. The overhead is no different, just the price you charge for the same product is.
> 
> I think too many people are drinking the kool-aid the B&M feeds them rather than thinking it out. Like jmj points out they have incredible overhead. I bet the costs of doing business in a month for the big boys are more than the yearly revenue of most B&Ms.


Just had to jump in about the overhead. Big business leverage their costs and spread it out over more units. Yes they have larger storage, shipping, more employees, etc. but they make it up in volume. In the cigar business it seems like the biggies (CI, JR, Famous, etc.) are in between distributor and retailer. They integrated part of the chain and now they can leverage the purchase at a lower price and even with the higher total overhead they can still make profit. The NET profit might be 10 cents per x brand of cigar but then they sell 50,000 so 50,000 x .10 = 5,000 and that is only one brand/stick (just for example no number basis).


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## Koach Kuku (Jul 2, 2012)

jmaloneaz said:


> I am breaking one of my rules of not reading all of the thread before commenting. I usually don't want to interject (repeat) an idea that has already been posted but at the rate I'm going this thread may have run its course before I finish. Sooooo, I have 2 points to make after agreeing with just about everything everyone has already posted (and I am at p. 6). 1. I think it takes both. Frankly if retail was the only venue I would not be smoking like I am today. I simply couldn't afford it. Online is cheaper for all of the previous mentions. However, I have been to many B&M and they carry by far a wider variety than is available on line. So, I try one or two (or six) from B&M and then buy online what I like. What really sucks is I feel guilty doing that. Because I know for the most part the B&M is trying to make a living also. Besides, you can't taste an online cigar before you buy it (or a box). 2. If business continues to go the way it has been we will be in the era of the 60's-90's when you could only buy major label beer, bourbon, gin, etc. It took a resurgence of the little guy to bring back the variety and quality of brewers to the point where there is much more diversity now. Support both if you can but DO NOT neglect the B&M. The same mentality applies to buying Made in the US. We have been selling off our industry for decades and now people gripe about Chinese made everything. Nobody thought about it because everyone wanted to make/save a buck. Now it is full circle and we, the consumer are paying for it. Off my :anim_soapbox: now. :razz:


Sorry I'm going to call you out... B&ms have a wider selection? Seriously? Seriously? That's like saying a target or Walmart brick and mortar has more than what you can find online. Seriously go to a b&m and write down every cigar they have then find them all online +1000s more.... Wow... I can't comprehend this... And Online prices will be cheaper with shipping included.


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## Kuch21 (Dec 3, 2010)

At some point in the near future congress will approve a law tat will require all sales to collect on taxes locally. Online sales will still have an advantage but not as much.


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## izkeh (Dec 17, 2007)

BurnOne said:


> I shop mostly ~99% online. the closest B&Ms are pretty out of the way and i'm a busy guy so i will stop in Very rarely.
> I would love to have a B&M closer to shop at but i would probably still buy mostly online and save some $$
> and use what i save to support my local liquor store!


I'm right there with ya. Except I support my local brewpub with my savings.


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## Fuzzy (Jun 19, 2011)

I too, go to the local B&M/cigar lounge more now. I pay a higher price for a single than I would for an online vendor. When I was working regularly 99% of my cigar budget was spent online.

Now, with a decent stash, no job and a minimal cigar budget, I go to the B&M more to pick up a cigar or two. I have ask this question there and the answer was, (paraphrased by me) True online is less expensive, our B&M"s are well known and does online sales but,,, there is a service the B&M provides you can not get online. Camaraderie, a place to meet and smoke with like minded folks and maybe even pair up a cigar with something from the bar. Five events in the next 30 days or so, Perdomo, Drew Estate, Gurkha, Espinosa and Quesada. That is five events at six different lounges, all within about an hours drive at most from each other.

The owner of all these B&M's must be doing something right!


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## Max_Power (Sep 9, 2010)

Koach Kuku said:


> Sorry I'm going to call you out... B&ms have a wider selection? Seriously? Seriously? That's like saying a target or Walmart brick and mortar has more than what you can find online. Seriously go to a b&m and write down every cigar they have then find them all online +1000s more.... Wow... I can't comprehend this... And Online prices will be cheaper with shipping included.


I don't know about Illinois, but there are a few B&Ms I frequent with selections that meat or beat any single online shop. I'm not saying they have more than CI or Famous, but they have more of what I'm in the market for, especially if you want to buy singles. And their prices are just as good as online, and better sometimes, especially when it comes to the higher end stuff.


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## Koach Kuku (Jul 2, 2012)

Ok so B&M's have a larger selection of high end sticks? come on man... really.. so your b&m has every high end stick?? cause i bet you can find all of the high end sticks online... and if your b&m is that good of a selection and price they would have online sales too to turn more profit. I am going to have to see it to believe it. Graycliffe professional in store $17 online $4. I'm trying to think of other "higher end sticks" but even in lower end range MUWAT bm = $10 online $6... in singles mind you. give me your last receipt from your B&M and ill find them onine and see if prices are the same



Max_Power said:


> I don't know about Illinois, but there are a few B&Ms I frequent with selections that meat or beat any single online shop. I'm not saying they have more than CI or Famous, but they have more of what I'm in the market for, especially if you want to buy singles. And their prices are just as good as online, and better sometimes, especially when it comes to the higher end stuff.


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## Max_Power (Sep 9, 2010)

Retracted. I'm not here to argue


Koach Kuku said:


> Ok so B&M's have a larger selection of high end sticks? come on man... really.. so your b&m has every high end stick?? cause i bet you can find all of the high end sticks online... and if your b&m is that good of a selection and price they would have online sales too to turn more profit. I am going to have to see it to believe it. Graycliffe professional in store $17 online $4. I'm trying to think of other "higher end sticks" but even in lower end range MUWAT bm = $10 online $6... in singles mind you. give me your last receipt from your B&M and ill find them onine and see if prices are the same


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## Smooth23 (Aug 22, 2012)

This is from a major newbies perspective. I went to my first B&M to find the first sticks I was paying for, having only smoked gifts and mooches before. The Corona in Okemos, MI, was the place to go, wanted to thank the father in law for getting me into the hobby. Told them I was a complete newb and the owner(I think) gave me a tour of the humi, pointed out some good sticks at a decent price(higher than online still!). Spent about $50, never felt like I was being a pest and the atmosphere was nice. Second stop in a B&M, Just for Him in Springfield, MO. Employees all acted snobby there and like they had better things to do than be asked questions. The humidor was much smaller and the prices were significantly higher than the shop in Michigan, which is odd because Missouri's taxes are about 1/4 as much. 

Now, I will make it a point to stop at the corona every time I'm back in michigan. But I can not see myself ever going back to the shop in springfield which is much closer. It's not the price that does it, but the service. I'd rather shop online and not have someone hovering with an attitude.


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## Koach Kuku (Jul 2, 2012)

Max_Power said:


> OK, go ahead.
> 
> La Duena corona $6.75
> TNT $9.75
> ...


What store did you buy those from?


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## Oldmso54 (Jul 31, 2010)

jmaloneaz said:


> I am breaking one of my rules of not reading all of the thread before commenting. I usually don't want to interject (repeat) an idea that has already been posted but at the rate I'm going this thread may have run its course before I finish. Sooooo, I have 2 points to make after agreeing with just about everything everyone has already posted (and I am at p. 6). 1. I think it takes both. Frankly if retail was the only venue I would not be smoking like I am today. I simply couldn't afford it. Online is cheaper for all of the previous mentions. However, I have been to many B&M and they carry by far a wider variety than is available on line. So, I try one or two (or six) from B&M and then buy online what I like. What really sucks is I feel guilty doing that. Because I know for the most part the B&M is trying to make a living also. Besides, you can't taste an online cigar before you buy it (or a box). 2. If business continues to go the way it has been we will be in the era of the 60's-90's when you could only buy major label beer, bourbon, gin, etc. It took a resurgence of the little guy to bring back the variety and quality of brewers to the point where there is much more diversity now. Support both if you can but DO NOT neglect the B&M. The same mentality applies to buying Made in the US. We have been selling off our industry for decades and now people gripe about Chinese made everything. Nobody thought about it because everyone wanted to make/save a buck. Now it is full circle and we, the consumer are paying for it. Off my :anim_soapbox: now. :razz:


Well said John - RG for you!!


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## fuente~fuente (May 11, 2009)

And just another little tidbit of info for some of you seemingly'ish anti B&M guys...

Who do you think is battling the hardest for your rights to smoke cigars? B&M's... TAA, CRA, IPCPR... All of these guys are busting their chops to help you keep your cigars, & a lot of them are owners! :nod:


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## Koach Kuku (Jul 2, 2012)

I'm not anti B&M believe me, I like being able to stop in places, the same way i like to stop at best buy... find something I like, try it, see it, smell it... then go on amazon and buy it for 50% off what best buy charges. hahaha lol...

cigars is a great hobby but for it to stay a hobby for a lot of people the prices need to come down... only way for most people to do that is to shop online..



fuente~fuente said:


> And just another little tidbit of info for some of you seemingly'ish anti B&M guys...
> 
> Who do you think is battling the hardest for your rights to smoke cigars? B&M's... TAA, CRA, IPCPR... All of these guys are busting their chops to help you keep your cigars, & a lot of them are owners! :nod:


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## fuente~fuente (May 11, 2009)

Koach Kuku said:


> I'm not anti B&M believe me, I like being able to stop in places, the same way i like to stop at best buy... find something I like, try it, see it, smell it... then go on amazon and buy it for 50% off what best buy charges. hahaha lol...
> 
> cigars is a great hobby but for it to stay a hobby for a lot of people the prices need to come down... only way for most people to do that is to shop online..


I'm not taking a shot at you Kev. eace:


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## PufPufPass (Feb 24, 2010)

Kevin, not sure how IL tobacco taxes influence cigar prices at your B&Ms, but here in FL I found a few B&Ms that I buy certain sticks from, mostly Padron X000 as they are $3.50 for Deliacias, $4 for 2000, $4.50 for 3000, etc. PAM's are $9.50 for Coronas, $10.50 for Exlusivos, etc. Anejo No.9s are $11, etc.. LPs are MSRP, Opus X Fuente Fuente $12.50, Regular AF lines are all MSRP, Tats and Ilusiones are MSRP, so all these and some others I only buy in B&Ms as on line they are the same or more, so why bother getting them online? Online I used to get but stopped as I do not like those any more are Pepin blends as they are not as good or consistent as they were when they first came out, those you can score $2-4 a stick these days, but good sticks like mentioned above you will never get cheaper where I am at online compared to B&M, so why bother, where I can go to B&M and pick and touch the cigar before I buy it.. I leave online for Cubans these days more or less..



Koach Kuku said:


> Ok so B&M's have a larger selection of high end sticks? come on man... really.. so your b&m has every high end stick?? cause i bet you can find all of the high end sticks online... and if your b&m is that good of a selection and price they would have online sales too to turn more profit. I am going to have to see it to believe it. Graycliffe professional in store $17 online $4. I'm trying to think of other "higher end sticks" but even in lower end range MUWAT bm = $10 online $6... in singles mind you. give me your last receipt from your B&M and ill find them onine and see if prices are the same


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## Ky70 (Aug 21, 2012)

There are some really good smoke shops in Chicago but the tax is outageous. I just discovered on my recent trip to a couple of popular B&M downtowns that the Tax is now 31% on each gar. I had been away from ciagrs for a bit and had no idea that our already ridiculous high taxes were now even more ridiculous.

My routine when I was a more regular smoker a few years ago was new singles to try from the B&M but anything purchased in quantity comes from the internet. The price difference is just too great to for me to buy any real quantity from the B&M.

I will buy a few more sticks from the suburban B&M stores as the tax is not as stiffling as in the city, but the same rule applies...any real quantity comes from online.


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## Koach Kuku (Jul 2, 2012)

PufPufPass said:


> Kevin, not sure how IL tobacco taxes influence cigar prices at your B&Ms, but here in FL I found a few B&Ms that I buy certain sticks from, mostly Padron X000 as they are $3.50 for Deliacias, $4 for 2000, $4.50 for 3000, etc. PAM's are $9.50 for Coronas, $10.50 for Exlusivos, etc. Anejo No.9s are $11, etc.. LPs are MSRP, Opus X Fuente Fuente $12.50, Regular AF lines are all MSRP, Tats and Ilusiones are MSRP, so all these and some others I only buy in B&Ms as on line they are the same or more, so why bother getting them online? Online I used to get but stopped as I do not like those any more are Pepin blends as they are not as good or consistent as they were when they first came out, those you can score $2-4 a stick these days, but good sticks like mentioned above you will never get cheaper where I am at online compared to B&M, so why bother, where I can go to B&M and pick and touch the cigar before I buy it.. I leave online for Cubans these days more or less..





fuente~fuente said:


> I'm not taking a shot at you Kev. eace:





Ky70 said:


> There are some really good smoke shops in Chicago but the tax is outageous. I just discovered on my recent trip to a couple of popular B&M downtowns that the Tax is now 31% on each gar. I had been away from ciagrs for a bit and had no idea that our already ridiculous high taxes were now even more ridiculous.
> 
> My routine when I was a more regular smoker a few years ago was new singles to try from the B&M but anything purchased in quantity comes from the internet. The price difference is just too great to for me to buy any real quantity from the B&M.
> 
> I will buy a few more sticks from the suburban B&M stores as the tax is not as stiffling as in the city, but the same rule applies...any real quantity comes from online.


Btw I love this discussion. Lol
You should give me 5 more common cigars ill go in my local shops and show you prices... See it from my point of view. Taxes do play into this but thats only a part.


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## [email protected] (Aug 16, 2012)

So.... looking into some info I could find via this great WEB Looks like there is no tax on cigars in Fl. Hence the good price??? Correct me if Im wrong please but looks like its the same deal here in va. And God knows the cigarette tax is outrageous here.


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## naajsmith (Jul 1, 2012)

Jason, if you are ever in the KC area there are some really good B&Ms around the area that you should checkout. I really like The Outlaw and Diebel's and have heard good things about Fidel's. North of KC is a place called Weston Tobacco that is worth the stop also, very friendly. It might be worth a road trip. I am sure there are some great ones closer to you also but those are some ones I am familiar with.

I believe one of the employees of Just for Him is a member here and I have heard good things from people so you might even give them another try, could have been an off day.

Good Luck!


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## Mauak (Jul 23, 2012)

I only have time to make a couple visits a month to our local B&Ms but I enjoy it when I do. I also think the extra $10 to $15 per visit is well worth the money for the camaraderie, comfortable chairs and especially the air conditioning these last few months. 

Nathan, I second your recommendations of the KC area B&Ms. I hope to run into you and some of the other area Puffers at one of them some day soon.


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## [email protected] (Aug 16, 2012)

Im sofa king we todd did. Should have read post before drunkinly responding. Thanks to the newb. Smoke on


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