# Humidor Theory



## aroma (Apr 12, 2010)

I just bought an inexpensive humidor and was a little dismayed at its light-duty construction. It fits the pattern that Herf N Turf describes in this thread. This not a criticism of the humidor supplier. Given how little I paid, I don't think it was a bad deal. It's just a case of "you get what you pay for."

However, the seal is good, and a few ounces of humidity beads are keeping a calibrated digital hygrometer 100% locked on the target relative humidity, so all is right with the world... right? ... Well, my fuzzy recollection of the meagre familarity I once had with physics, thermodynamics, etc., have me wondering about the movement of water vapor inside my humidor. (There's probably an e^-kt and a Boltzmann's constant somewhere in there...)

Imagine my humidor packed with 4 layers of cellophane-wrapped cigars. The rate at which water molecules diffuse through the air inside the humidor is probably 3 to 4 orders of magnitude higher than the rate at which they diffuse through the cigars, and we have no way of knowing how fast water diffuses through the wood itself and any imperfections in the glue joints that hold the humidor together. At equilibrium, there's probably a moisture gradient from the surface of the top layer of cigars through the cigars, and through the wood to the outside air. But how steep is this gradient? Is it significant or negligible? I have no way to tell.

So even if my humidity beads keep the moisture content of the internal air well-regulated, as indicated on my hygrometer, I don't really know how well they are regulating the moisture content of the cigars themselves. Presumably, the quality of the construction of the humidor has some effect on this.

As I thought about this, my first impulse was to return the inexpensive humidor and buy a more heavy-duty one. I did an extensive search of available options, and I concluded that I'd have to spend at least 3 times the price I paid, and, realistically, more like 5 to 10 times the price I paid. I'm not currently prepared to make that kind of investment (although I may some day), and even then, I still have no way of knowing how the system is actually performing.

My second thought, and the one I'm deciding to go with, is to buy an inexpensive cedar tray from Cuban Crafters, which I can just drop into the bottom of my humidor, raised up a little off the floor, so air can circulate all the way around the cigars:










Since I can observe the RH of the air with my hygrometer, I'm confident that the cigars' equilibrium state will be at the desired moisture content. This represents a modest added expense and reduction in capacty, but I believe it will make my inexpensive humidor keep my cigars humidified as well as a high-end humidor. It will be operating on the same principle as a coolerdor.

What do you think of this idea?

There is one manufacturer that appears to think along these lines: Dolce Sogni (available through cigarextras.com). Their desktop humidors provide for air circulation around the bottom and all sides of the cigars:

If I were to ready to pay $300 to $400 for a 100-count, I would be inclined to try one of these.


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## Magnate (Nov 27, 2009)

Cigars are fun to think about... but, I think you're over thinking this. Rotating your stock, if it sits around, is a good idea every couple months... but, otherwise, relax... enjoy your cigars...

You are right, though... air circulation is important... and many small desktops have a way of allowing air under the cigars... and large humidors require small fans.


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## johnmoss (Jun 18, 2010)

I agree with Magnate. Although it might help a tiny bit to have the space underneath, I doubt it's enough to make any real difference. Tobacco leaves suck up moisture pretty well. Ever leave a nub (not the brand) laying outside and see it get rained on. Even a little water and BOOM it swells up like crazy. I'd think as long as the humidity in the humidor is right the cigars are going to be also. But, I'm a newbie and admittedly don't know near as much as most. Just my thoughts on it.


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## pointbreak (Feb 8, 2010)

2 too much over analyzing the whole thing ....your obviously a very smart guy,the tray is a good idea,but if the seal is good and the beads are working and your hygrometer is tested and working 100% .....stop worrying and enjoy your smokes all will work out ..cheers


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## thegoldenmackid (Mar 16, 2010)

First off... the Team WA icons are a tad bit ridiculous.

After my jealousy ends... I think that perhaps too much is going into this. Don's point seems more towards "you get what you pay for" and that if you think that a $80 humidor from Cheap Humidors is going to last a lifetime, you are hoping for a bit much. Anyone with any knowledge of humidors will explain the importance of internal thickness, something that is often missed on the internet. I bought a $80 humidor with the intention of it lasting a summer, it's doing it's job - but I have a Romeo y Julieta humidor that I paid much more for and I expect to last a lot longer. 

Humidity is a funny thing, particularly now with beads. if your cigars are smoking fine... you know the drill.


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## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

I guess I'm the odd man (understatement) out in this thread.

I LOVE THE OP! The fact is, I think like this all the time. The difference is that, as a pragmatist, I understand that cigars are pretty hearty little boogers and will put up with a lot of mistakes and BS.

I am 100% convinced that you get what you pay for in terms of humidor quality, efficacy and craftsmanship. Thing is, I am never going to convert the universe to this religion and I don't want to spend my life running around the interweb like the proverbial humidor Don Quiote. 

Where concerns longer-term storage of cigars, air and water vapor exchange are indeed important. Rotation, criss-cross layering, opening the humidor occasionally to let it air out, all help create consistency. It's really consistency we're striving for in all of this. The real science of cigar storage would be the equation of consistency over time.

To answer the OP question, if you can afford the loss of space, go for the shelf. Personally, I'd rather construct some slats out of boxes, or even box inserts. Either way, just enough to get a tiny amount of air space underneath your sticks.


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## swingerofbirches (Jan 12, 2010)

Great post, Aroma! 
Personally, I'm on board. Although, "if you've come this far, maybe you'll be willing to go a bit further" (gotta love an excuse to insert a Shawshank Redemption quote ) ... which is to say, why not construct your own tray? That way you'll have complete confidence in the fact that the tray has adequate seperation from both the bottom and sides of the humidor that air and vapor are circulating enough to ensure that all of your cigars are properly humidified.


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## Ducrider (Feb 4, 2010)

thegoldenmackid said:


> First off... the Team WA icons are a tad bit ridiculous.


:kicknuts: You know you want one... :dance:

/threadjack off


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## aroma (Apr 12, 2010)

Herf N Turf said:


> ... Personally, I'd rather construct some slats out of boxes, or even box inserts. ...





swingerofbirches said:


> ... why not construct your own tray? ...


For the humidor I just acquired, there's an off-the shelf tray that happens to fit nicely, and it's just too easy to buy the tray and drop it in.

I also have an older humidor, for which there is no off-the-shelf tray that fits, so I've ordered some spanish cedar from Woodcraft.com, to fabricate a custom-sized platform.


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## e-man (Jan 5, 2009)

Given enough time, the humidity will permeate. Even the wooden walls of the humidor will reach equilibrium, so the cigars are in contact with wood that has the same rH as the air. I don't see how that would be any different than a cigar sitting on top of another cigar.

I think this would only be a concern for the person who keeps small amounts on hand and needs them to adjust ASAP.


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## aroma (Apr 12, 2010)

e-man said:


> Given enough time, the humidity will permeate. Even the wooden walls of the humidor will reach equilibrium ...


That assumes there is no out-flow. I'm not at all sure that's true with an inexpensive humidor. The walls of my new humi are only 1/2" thick and of unknown material. (I can see that the cedar is only a veneer.) The floor is only 1/8" thick! And I have no way of determining if the glued joints along all the edges are completely air-tight and will remain so for many years.

I do know that diffusion through a gas happens very quickly, and that I can measure the RH easily. So if my cigars, and the tray they are in, are completely surrounded by air of a known constant RH, I''m confident they will reach the desired equilibrium.


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## e-man (Jan 5, 2009)

Another thought: 

Humidity rises. Unless you are using fans, your lower level will always have a lower rH than the top, so you can't expect the lower level to behave the same as the upper level under any circumstance. Having extra air space around the bottom and sides would certainly allow the lower moisture to rush out of the humidor much faster, every time it is opened.

Raising the bottom stick higher will increase the rH that it sits in, but I doubt your hygrometer would read any different with a mere cm or two of additional height.


Use the top level for your ready-to-go smokes and the bottom for resting.


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## aroma (Apr 12, 2010)

e-man said:


> Another thought: Humidity rises. Unless you are using fans, your lower level will always have a lower rH than the top ...


I plan to have beads both above the upper tray and below it, and to use more than the minimum. Hopefully, that will keep the RH at least close to where I want it to be everywhere. With my current humi, which has beads above and below, I get identical hygrometer readings above and below.


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## bhuang61 (Jun 3, 2010)

aroma said:


> I plan to have beads both above the upper tray and below it, and to use more than the minimum. Hopefully, that will keep the RH at least close to where I want it to be everywhere. With my current humi, which has beads above and below, I get identical hygrometer readings above and below.


As a semi-obsessive analytic mind like yourself loco: ) I've had very similar thoughts. I have a 50 ct filled to the brim and am in the process of setting up a cooler with a pound of beads. I firmly believe in the use of more beads than you think you need. In my humi, I have a medium tube of 65% beads. Based on HF calculations of the appropriate volume for those beads, I have over 100 cu in of headroom (about 20%). All is holding solid at 65%. I'm sold on beads.


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## Humidor Minister (Oct 5, 2007)

Thanks for bringing up this important topic.
I have a little different way to address the issue. I make these grooves and dados to allow for air to move around the floor but my technique also allows you to move tiles around to orgainze your cigars in just about any configuration. I also make my trays in this criss cross pattern to allow for more freedom of air movement. In addition, these trays are long grain in both directions. Less chance for warping. 
















These are for a cabinet I'm working on.








The teaser pics.


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## Enlil (Jun 10, 2010)

That smaller humidor that you posted (Koa? if I remember correctly) is very impressive (I love the wood grain). I was confused about how the lower level storage was used when I saw it the first time, but now that I understand how you are to use it I am even more impressed with that design.

I dont even know what to say about that cabinet that you posted next, I am speechless, those pull out drawers... just wow. I cant wait to see what you have in store for the doors. If that is a work in progress I can wait patiently to see, but if thats already finished and shipped out you have to post a link to the end result.


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## fuente~fuente (May 11, 2009)

Humidor Minister said:


>


*That*... Is going to be a thing of beauty. :bowdown:


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## bazookajoe (Nov 2, 2006)

Humidor Minister said:


>





fuente~fuente said:


> *That*... Is going to be a thing of beauty. :bowdown:


Already is! :thumb:


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## swingerofbirches (Jan 12, 2010)

Right about now i'm super pissed that my work's firewalls prevent photobucket hosted images from displaying ... i'm very anxious to see these pics!


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## aroma (Apr 12, 2010)

bhuang61 said:


> ... Based on HF calculations of the appropriate volume for those beads, I have over 100 cu in of headroom (about 20%).


When I said "more than the minimum required," I was understating a bit. I use 4 or 5 times the minimum required.


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## aroma (Apr 12, 2010)

Since we're displaying our madd woodworking skillz, it's my turn. :tease:

I just built this aeration grate for my Bally 75-100 count. I bought some 3/8" spanish cedar from woodcraft.com, ripped it to 1/2" wide strips by hand using an old cordless circular saw with a tiny, thin-kerf 3 3/8" blade, and glued it together with 3/8" spacing between the strips. I cut the pieces roughly to length and then trimmed the whole thing to a nice rectangle after the glue was dry.

The total height in my humidor is 3/4", which eats up one layer of cigars' worth of space. I think 1/4" thick SC would have worked just as well, but it wouldn't have saved me the layer of cigars I lost, so I decided to go big.

The low-res photos don't really display how "rustic" it is. Suffice it to say that Humidor Minister's business is not in any danger...


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## Humidor Minister (Oct 5, 2007)

Very nice job. I always like to see someone go the extra mile to be different. 

BTW the cabinet has matching end tables too. Not quite finished yet but close. I've been working on the finish for weeks. Almost perfect now though. The rest of the cabinet that you can't see is Waterfall Bubinga. All the sides are curved using the bent lamination technique. I don't want to give it away just yet. Soon though.


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## StratSlinger (Jun 23, 2010)

I'm really impressed by how uniform those strips came out, especially considering that you used a circular saw to rip them! Even if they're more rustic than the pics would indicate, you did a really nice job. I just might have to head over to WoodCraft and get my table saw fired up... 

And regarding the cabinet the Minister's working on - WOW!!! I can only hope to one day be able to build something close to that caliber. Truth be told, my woodworking skill is still well within the "I'll build whatever I paint so I don't have to risk goofing up nice wood and I can more easily hide my mistakes" stage... Will that eventually be getting solid doors, or are they going to be glass?


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## Humidor Minister (Oct 5, 2007)

Thanks. I'm here if I can be of any help. I'm not perfect but I can hide mistakes really, really well.:nod:


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## aroma (Apr 12, 2010)

I just received the tray I'd ordered from Cuban Crafters. I glued small blocks of spanish cedar to the bottom, to raise it 3/8" off the floor of my humidor.

The humidor is a Tuscany from CheapHumidors. With the 13.5" x 8" tray, and humidification devices, it holds 80 to 90 actual cigars. The humidor and tray cost me $74 total, including shipping. With its superior air circulation, I'm now very confident keeping nice sticks in it.


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## aroma (Apr 12, 2010)

I got access to a friend's table saw, and decided to make a grate for the Tuscany and re-purpose the tray to a coolerdor. This time, I made the top pieces from 3/8" thick spanish cedar, and the lower pieces from 1/4" thick spanish cedar. Reducing the height of the grate to 5/8" total allows 3 layers of cigars to fit with a little more breathing room.

After switching to the grate, the Tuscany holds an honest 100 cigars, including humidification devices.

Having lived with the Tuscany for a little while now, I'm still very pleased with it. For me, with this modification, it hits a price/performance sweet spot.

If anyone else is interested in making one of these, I've included the template I used for mine as a PDF attachment to this post.


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## Russell Pta (Jun 28, 2010)

i love the time and thought you are putting into this. do i think its a bit much? probably. but its outside the box thinkers that come up with new inventions right? 

as said above, if your cigars are smoking like you like them, then all is well. keep up the good work.


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## bouncintiga (Feb 3, 2010)

thermodynamic theory is fun. lets compound it with box storage. also differentiation between dress style boxes, plain wood boxes and varnished boxes which all have varying degrees of permeability. 

I'm encountering something similar since I have a 120 quart coolidor currently with no circulation. I recently switched from 65rh beads to 60rh beads. I've been monitoring the hygros daily and despite the fact that I barely charged the new 60rh beads, the humidity is still holding steady at 65.

the fun part is figuring out when it will drop down to the level of the beads. the cigars have been stored for so long at 65rh it's taking a long time for them to give up that extra moisture. I know it'll happen and I can see the beads turn clear as it does but I don't know when it'll happen and i'm not going to sit around and figure out when. 

i'd rather just clip a cigar and smoke it. cheers!


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## ddunbar13 (Sep 22, 2010)

Sorry to change the subject here but where is all this Spanish Cedar coming from??? It's proving impossible for me to find good stock in my area. Any good online vendors?


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## marked (Jul 29, 2010)

ddunbar13 said:


> Sorry to change the subject here but where is all this Spanish Cedar coming from??? It's proving impossible for me to find good stock in my area. Any good online vendors?












www.woodcraft.com


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## ddunbar13 (Sep 22, 2010)

Thanks Marked I have purchased from them and Rockler for previous humidors. They seem to only have small thin boards, I was looking more along the lines of bulk quanity. Going to be working on a new project that's going to need enough for about 23sqf


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## marked (Jul 29, 2010)

ddunbar13 said:


> Thanks Marked I have purchased from them and Rockler for previous humidors. They seem to only have small thin boards, I was looking more along the lines of bulk quanity. Going to be working on a new project that's going to need enough for about 23sqf


There's a place here in Phoenix that sells thicker boards. You'd have to rip and plane them down yourself. I was looking at doing a project, but would probably use the 1/4" lining since I don't have the equipment I'd need for the thicker stuff. I think for what I want to do, the 1/4" would be fine, anyway.

Results for spanish cedar - Woodworkers Source: Search

You could also drop Waxingmoon a PM and ask him where he gets his stuff. I asked him about woodworker's source since they're here in Phoenix, and he mentioned that he gets his stuff cheaper than that. I didn't ask where he was talking about since I figured the shipping from the east coast would negate any difference in price.


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## ddunbar13 (Sep 22, 2010)

Thanks for the info, the last desktop cabinet I made was with 1/4, I'll post pics later. But getting the small stock at woodcraft cost too much for enough to cover like 2cu ft. With the boards they had in stock. It be nice to find some bulk boards



marked said:


> There's a place here in Phoenix that sells thicker boards. You'd have to rip and plane them down yourself. I was looking at doing a project, but would probably use the 1/4" lining since I don't have the equipment I'd need for the thicker stuff. I think for what I want to do, the 1/4" would be fine, anyway.


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## aroma (Apr 12, 2010)

I got my Spanish cedar from Woodcraft.

One more source that's been mentioned in threads here:
Wall Lumber Co


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## aroma (Apr 12, 2010)

bouncintiga said:


> I'm encountering something similar since I have a 120 quart coolidor currently with no circulation. I recently switched from 65rh beads to 60rh beads. I've been monitoring the hygros daily and despite the fact that I barely charged the new 60rh beads, the humidity is still holding steady at 65.
> 
> the fun part is figuring out when it will drop down to the level of the beads. the cigars have been stored for so long at 65rh it's taking a long time for them to give up that extra moisture. I know it'll happen and I can see the beads turn clear as it does but I don't know when it'll happen and i'm not going to sit around and figure out when.
> 
> i'd rather just clip a cigar and smoke it. cheers!


I suspect your beads are essentially saturated, and the only moisture transfer that is happening is slow seepage between the humidor and the room. If you want to expedite the process, set your hygrometer out in the room and verify it's under 60%. Then just open the lid of your humidor for a short while.


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## marked (Jul 29, 2010)

aroma said:


> I got my Spanish cedar from Woodcraft.
> 
> One more source that's been mentioned in threads here:
> Wall Lumber Co


I literally know nothing about what forms the SC comes in. If I'm reading things right, it seems that you can't get anything more than 8" wide. So, if you have a larger surface to cover, how do you make that work? I'm looking at doing something similar to what Dread did with the cabinet he ordered from WalMart, but lining the top space with SC.


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## aroma (Apr 12, 2010)

marked said:


> I literally know nothing about what forms the SC comes in. If I'm reading things right, it seems that you can't get anything more than 8" wide. So, if you have a larger surface to cover, how do you make that work? I'm looking at doing something similar to what Dread did with the cabinet he ordered from WalMart, but lining the top space with SC.


I'm not a woodworker, but I presume you have to glue boards edge-wise, like the way you would make a glued-up table-top.


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## bouncintiga (Feb 3, 2010)

aroma said:


> I suspect your beads are essentially saturated, and the only moisture transfer that is happening is slow seepage between the humidor and the room. If you want to expedite the process, set your hygrometer out in the room and verify it's under 60%. Then just open the lid of your humidor for a short while.


Beads aren't saturated. I received them and passively charged them with the 65rh beads. They're still mostly white (probably 90%) so there is plenty of room for moisture absorption, they are probably too dry. Also the hygros have been salt tested and verified so I'm not worried about them

did I mention the 120qt cooler is mostly filled too and most of the boxes have been sitting for months at 65 rh? It only makes sense that the cigars and boxes would retain that moisture for a while, especially with the lack of airflow (which i hope to remedy tonight).

I've been expediting the process by opening the coolidor with the AC on so that the rh in the room drops to the low 50's. The coolidor's rh will drop to about 59 in an hour or so but invariably as soon as i close the lid for several hours, rh returns to 65. It's just a waiting game and I'm not worried about what's happening. But a fun topic to discuss, cheers!


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## asmartbull (Aug 16, 2009)

bouncintiga said:


> Beads aren't saturated. I received them and passively charged them with the 65rh beads. They're still mostly white (probably 90%) so there is plenty of room for moisture absorption, they are probably too dry. Also the hygros have been salt tested and verified so I'm not worried about them
> 
> did I mention the 120qt cooler is mostly filled too and most of the boxes have been sitting for months at 65 rh? It only makes sense that the cigars and boxes would retain that moisture for a while, especially with the lack of airflow (which i hope to remedy tonight).
> 
> I've been expediting the process by opening the coolidor with the AC on so that the rh in the room drops to the low 50's. The coolidor's rh will drop to about 59 in an hour or so but invariably as soon as i close the lid for several hours, rh returns to 65. It's just a waiting game and I'm not worried about what's happening. But a fun topic to discuss, cheers!


It can take a while to get it stable at lower RH's
when there is a lot in the cooler. I have about 30 boxes in each of mine.
This Summer I added kitty litter and it really speed up the process and I didn't end up with saturated beads
Now holding 60-61
Next Spring I will stop charging beads/KL sooner


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## K. Corleon (Jul 22, 2010)

Humidor Minister said:


> Thanks for bringing up this important topic.
> I have a little different way to address the issue. I make these grooves and dados to allow for air to move around the floor but my technique also allows you to move tiles around to orgainze your cigars in just about any configuration. I also make my trays in this criss cross pattern to allow for more freedom of air movement. In addition, these trays are long grain in both directions. Less chance for warping.
> 
> 
> ...


WOW, you have captured my heart and my imagination my friend...


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## aroma (Apr 12, 2010)

bouncintiga said:


> Beads aren't saturated. I received them and passively charged them with the 65rh beads. They're still mostly white (probably 90%) so there is plenty of room for moisture absorption, they are probably too dry.


I had a problem with beads saturating this summer, when the ambient humidity went above 65%. My beads were mostly white the whole time.

I've been using beads heavily for a while now, and the only time I've seen them go mostly clear was when I first started with beads and was rehydrating them by soaking. (I've since learned not to do that and have retired those abused beads.)

I do agree that what's going on with your coolerdor is a large mass of cigars and wood taking a while to transfer humidity.


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