# How To F-Up Apple Cider



## Jeff (Jan 2, 2005)

By enacting a regulations that force producers to pasteurize. I remember the good old days when apple cider tasted like it was supposed to. Now it tastes just like regular apple juice. Why does this country ruin food with silly regs. Same with diary products like cheese where most of it has to use cooked mild.

Got a half gallon of cider from a local producer back home recently expecting that nice slighty tangy taste, only to find apple juice. Dammit, I'm going to have to find a small producer who will crush the apples for me without cooking it and ruining the taste.


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## Jay (Sep 7, 2005)

Because everyone is Politically correct. What was in apple cider 20 years ago and didn't kill anyone, is suddenly worse then arsenic in the year 2005


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## SeanGAR (Jul 9, 2004)

Yeah, well if somebody you know dies from food poisoning because of unpasteurized cider you'd be screaming bloody murder. Me, I'll take my food as safe as we can make it, thanks. Some people are looking at non-thermal pasteurization treatments (UV light, pressure, etc) and they promise to improve the flavor quality while maintaining safety.

When I was a kid we ate raw beef in kibbe all the time. I would not feed that to MY kids. E. coli 0157:H7 was NOT AROUND when you or I were kids. It is a new pathogen that arose from a shigella toxin plasmid transfer into E. coli (identified first in 1982). So the bacteria is new and requires new processing FOR FOOD SAFETY. Sure, only 2 people died from apple cider since 1980, but hundreds have been sickened. I don't want MY KIDS to be part of that. 

"Unpasteurized apple cider has been associated with outbreaks of food illness caused by pathogenic E. Coli 0157:H7. The apples used to make the cider were believed to have become contaminated with cow manure either from grazing cows in the apple orchard or from the use of cow manure as a fertilizer. Contamination of the apple cider with E. Coli resulted from improperly cleaning of the apples prior to pressing the juice and/or cross contamination from the raw apples to the finished apple cider. Studies on the survival of E. Coli 0157:H7 in unpasteurized apple cider with a pH between 3.6 and 4.0 have shown the organism to be acid tolerant."


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## Ramrod (Sep 21, 2005)

One of the root causes of the most deadly outbreaks, and now this regulation, was over zealous harvesting. Short sited harvesters would include apples which had been sitting on the ground. 

Think its bad for non-alcoholic cider(which really is just apple juice)? Consider what this does for people who wanted to make cider(Fermented Apple juice), using wild yeasts. Their entire hobby has been destroyed. Years ago , you could go to a Ranch/Farm and create yourself a custom press and let the natural yeasts in the apples do thier work. Not anymore, your hobby is verboten.

And Just like ISOMs, there are some farmers out there who will provide contraband juice for those of us who enjoy full flavor in our fermented beverages. And again, just like ISOMs, don't PM folks looking to have them reveal thier sources.

/me wears his cider lovers armband with pride.


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## Jeff (Jan 2, 2005)

SeanGAR said:


> FOR FOOD SAFETY. Sure, only 2 people died from apple cider since 1980, but hundreds have been sickened.


I'm not questioning your desire to protect your kids, but what about giving the consumer some choice? I'd be happy with a label saying if it was treated or not.



SeanGAR said:


> Yeah, well if somebody you know dies from food poisoning because of unpasteurized cider you'd be screaming bloody murder.


People sell and consume poison in a bottle everyday: beer, wine, etc.. Loads of people die from that every day. As long as you know what you're getting, I'll take my chances with the apple cider odds.


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## ky toker (Jun 2, 2005)

> I'm not questioning your desire to protect your kids, but what about giving the consumer some choice? I'd be happy with a label saying if it was treated or not.


I remember when TKR Cable(, now Insight) stop offering the UFC on pay per view. Apparently people where complaining that it was violent so they pulled it off of their PPV list. It was PPV, if you don't want to watch it don't pay for it!

Now, I don't know on what level people were getting ill on this stuff and if it were a wide spread problem then I can kind of see the point. 


> People sell and consume poison in a bottle everyday: beer, wine, etc.. Loads of people die from that every day. As long as you know what you're getting, I'll take my chances with the apple cider odds.


Just add cigars to that list along with all tobacco products.

Oyster . Seems a few people have been a little sick eating raw oysters and now there is a watch going on. Should they ban eating oyster's? Hell no, just be warned that if you shoot them raw there could be a chance of becoming sick. Not much of a chance but it is there.

So someone break this down for me a bit. What exactly is the process of making the cider? Do you just take the apple and smash it? What I am really wondering is what is the difference in cleaing the apples before you make cider and cleaning the apples before I eat one. they don't go thru the same cleaning phase?

It has been a long time since I've had apple cider, I guess this is the reason.


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## Jeff (Jan 2, 2005)

ky toker said:


> So someone break this down for me a bit. What exactly is the process of making the cider? Do you just take the apple and smash it? What I am really wondering is what is the difference in cleaing the apples before you make cider and cleaning the apples before I eat one. they don't go thru the same cleaning phase?


Cider is just the juice from pressed apples. I know that now they aren't supposed to use apples that have fallen on the ground. They have to be still on the tree. Which makes sense so you don't get one that fell into a pile of chit or something.

I love cider in that middle phase. When its aged a bit and takes on that slightly tangy zippy taste, but isn't too alcoholic.


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## SeanGAR (Jul 9, 2004)

Ramrod said:


> One of the root causes of the most deadly outbreaks, and now this regulation, was over zealous harvesting. Short sited harvesters would include apples which had been sitting on the ground.


This is exactly right. Manure is not likely to contact the apples in the tree unless they do foliage sprays of liquid manure, which ain't damned likely. It is manure contact that allows E. coli in the cider.

It is not REQUIRED (from what I understand) for Pennsylvania cider manufacturers to Pasteurize, but if not and its for interstate sale, they need a label warning. I expect Penn requires the same warning if sold within state. In any case, you may be able to buy some unpasteurized juice for hard cider manufacture or drinking if you talk to the facility owner.

I believe in choices as well .... unpasteurized milk cheeses and unpasteurized cider SHOULD be available for people who want that fresh taste. Its just that I'm not going to feed the cider to my kids unless I freeze it first (kills most pathogens).



> So someone break this down for me a bit. What exactly is the process of making the cider? Do you just take the apple and smash it? What I am really wondering is what is the difference in cleaing the apples before you make cider and cleaning the apples before I eat one. they don't go thru the same cleaning phase?


Jeff is right, you just squash and press apples. Sometimes pectic enzymes and/or sulfite are added to increase yield and decrease browning. I would expect that cleaning should be used before crushing .... but I don't know if there are regulations for this except as a HACCP CCP. The thing about E. coli that is more of a problem in the cider than apples is that they can grow in cider but not apples. Its usually the bacteria load which is a problem, so if there are a few E. coli 0157:H7s on the apple it isn't a problem, but if 3 grow to 10^4 in cider, you're most likely going to get sick.


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## coppertop (Dec 29, 2003)

i love the fact that people are making decisions for me. Jeff, i'm with you on the label thing. let us make the informed decision. Sean I understand your desire to protect your kids....but i think Jeffs label idea is a solid one. i'm just anti government making decisions for me. F*ck that.


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## SeanGAR (Jul 9, 2004)

coppertop said:


> i love the fact that people are making decisions for me. Jeff, i'm with you on the label thing. let us make the informed decision. Sean I understand your desire to protect your kids....but i think Jeffs label idea is a solid one. i'm just anti government making decisions for me. F*ck that.


Well, I agree too, there is in fact a requirement for a label on unpasteurized cider.

From what I understand, cider makers have a choice if they want to pasteurize or not, and they are able as well to add anti-yeast agents sorbate or benzoate. So you SHOULD be able to find no-additive, non-Pasteurized cider around .... just depends on whether or not the manufacturer is willing to make it.


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## ky toker (Jun 2, 2005)

SeanGAR said:


> .........The thing about E. coli that is more of a problem in the cider than apples is that they can grow in cider but not apples. Its usually the bacteria load which is a problem, so if there are a few E. coli 0157:H7s on the apple it isn't a problem, but if 3 grow to 10^4 in cider, you're most likely going to get sick.


Good answer, thank you.

I for one am not interested in having decisions made for me either, though we do have our government setup to protect us from certain things in life. Mad Cow disease is an example of something the has to be quarantined and we need a government entity to watchdog problems like this and essentially protect the people from something that could be dangerous.


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## NCatron (Sep 7, 2005)

I totally agree with the posts about making our own decisions.

Luckily, we are the intelligent ones. We are capable of making informed decisions for ourselves, by researching the risks.

Unluckily, the majority of the population isn't this smart. Hence all the damn regulation.

Now, if it were up to nature, these people would already be dead. But we coddle them, thus reversing the "survival of the fittest" rule, and leading to the degradation of our own race. Oh well.

:sb

</rant off>


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## Jay (Sep 7, 2005)

not exactly on topic, but just listen to this

Foamy


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## Jsabbi01 (Feb 24, 2005)

Delicious Orchards in NJ do NOT pasturize, and there is a huge warning on every side of the carton. Sure is some yummy cider though...


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## Fat Old Sun (Sep 8, 2005)

SeanGAR said:


> Sure, only 2 people died from apple cider since 1980, but hundreds have been sickened.


I am sickened by what these bastards are doing to my damn cider. :c 
At least the two that died do not live to see this debacle.

It would be nice if they would just handle the food properly from the start so that I could get a decent burger instead of a dried up grey meat puck on a bun. Everybody wants to cook the shit out of everything.

Pretty soon we'll all be living off of jerky, the crappy low sodium kind of course. The next stop; synthesized protein smoothies for every meal, followed soon enough by Soilent Green.

*I just want a juicy cheeseburger and a glass of real F'n apple cider!!!*

Don't even get me started on kids wearing helmets.


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