# SCHIP Casualties...



## BlewSmoke.com

I tend to read a lot of articles on this subject as I'm sure we all do. This is the first (of maybe many).

Finck Cigar Company (Finck Cigar Company :)

Here is Bill Finck's letter to the Washington Times: 
Washington Times - LETTER TO EDITOR: Brutal S-CHIP tax provisions


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## sboyajian

I'm tempted to buy something from Finck just to help them through it.


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## BlewSmoke.com

sboyajian said:


> I'm tempted to buy something from Finck just to help them through it.


Haha..I felt the came compulsion. However, we'll really need to see how this all shakes out. The impact may be far less than the anticipated worry. He's obviously talking worst case..and truly the SCHIP bill is flawed in so may ways, but we'll just have to ride it out an see what happens in 6-12 months or longer.


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## Professor Mike

The Feds have already determined that they are 22 million smokers short of having enough money to properly fund SCHIPs from the increase in tobacco tax. It would seem that the program is doomed to fail or the non-smoking tax payer will somehow have to make up the difference. We'll have to see how all this plays out. You can bet that if the SCHIP program goes by the wayside the tax will not go away. The money from the tobacco tax increase will be shifted to some other LIBERAL FEDERAL program. 

Prof. Mike uke:


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## strider72

Gee... a f###ed up liberal scheme that will fail... hmmm... USSR fell too.


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## smokering10

Professor Mike said:


> The Feds have already determined that they are 22 million smokers short of having enough money to properly fund SCHIPs from the increase in tobacco tax.


actually i heard from glenn beck that it will take 42 million more smokers to fund it.


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## Professor Mike

Mr Beck is probably closer to the exact number. In any event the program will cost all the taxpayers more than they realize.:amen:


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## strider72

Wait!!!! Does that mean they want us to smoke more???!!! Alll right!


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## liljohn

It can't mean they want us to smoke when other forums tell about state smoking ban initiatives


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## strider72

I know... ban smoking... maybe they ought to ban Big Macs.... more people killed by heart disease caused mostly by eating the wrong thing.


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## topshelfcigars

Unfortunately, I think Mr. Finck is correct about the effect on his business. The cigars he makes will be hit the hardest by SCHIP, because of the price points. Another casualty of the well-meaning but ignorant nanny state.


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## FN in MT

topshelfcigars said:


> Unfortunately, I think Mr. Finck is correct about the effect on his business. The cigars he makes will be hit the hardest by SCHIP, because of the price points. Another casualty of the well-meaning but ignorant nanny state.


 The NANNY STATE is NOT "well meaning". They are arrogant, elitist and self serving.

They are not taxing tobbaco to save lives. But to simply fund another one of their "feel good" programs. The goal or plan isn't about actually accomplishing something....but the appearance of accomplishing something.

FN in MT


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## ssilverado60

FN in MT said:


> The NANNY STATE is NOT "well meaning". They are arrogant, elitist and self serving.
> 
> They are not taxing tobbaco to save lives. But to simply fund another one of their "feel good" programs. The goal or plan isn't about actually accomplishing something....but the appearance of accomplishing something.
> 
> FN in MT


EXACTLY!! couldnt have said it better myself.

They want power and control, not to help people. there are exceptions, but not many


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## mc2712

Well meaning is term made up to make peolple feel good, but that is all that will be important for the next 4 years. Trying to make people feel good or we meant well or it's for the kids, it is all crap and BS to try to get more taxes for stuff people should be taken care of on their own!


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## Raybird

ssilverado60 said:


> EXACTLY!! couldnt have said it better myself.
> 
> They want power and control, not to help people. there are exceptions, but not many


You guys are right on the money (which is going to be about a $1 per cigar hit initially - and this is just for starters!). We are _so screwed_ with this bunch in charge...:banghead:


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## Zarathustra19

Maybe the liberals should stop legislating health for a second and fix the economy first, then go back to expanding the welfare state. 

Wait...isn't it ironic that liberals want to ban smoking (in effect telling me what I can do with my body) but they jump on anyone who even mentions that Roe v. Wade could have been decided wrongly like a pack of rabid dogs? Yet another double standard.

*disclaimer: I in no way either support or oppose the ruling of the Roe v. Wade court (gotta keep P.C.)


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## mdman

dont forget, the price increases are wholesale.... so you can look foward to much higher than $1. also, some companies will be adding even more of a price increase at the same time to make up for lost sales...


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## FN in MT

Welcome to the Democratic Nanny State. It's going to be a VERY long next two to four years.

I'm getting hit by this BS on THREE fronts. In no particular order...

I've always enjoyed being informed,especially on things political. Currently the vast majority of the Media is in Obamas pocket, so having to sift through the crap for the truth has gotten tiresome.

My beloved cigars are going to go UP in price to fund another "throw our money in a deep hole" Govt program. 

I've shot competitive shotgun and handgun sports for years. NO way that hobby is going to come out of a Democratic majority unscathed. They are going to either TAX me out of that hobby or LICENSE/REGULATE me out of it. 

With the Nanny State it's REALLY not actually helping people or saving lives....it's about the PERCEPTION that the Demos/Libs are actually DOING something.

Only thing that makes me happy is ordering sticks BEFORE the tax hits us......makes me feel like I'm SCREWIN' Obama a little.....off to the Famous Site for another order....

FN in MT


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## LibertyToad

Yeah, it's a mess. YoBama rushes in his spending package since it is such an "emergency" and then jets off here to Chicago for a 3-day weekend. So much for the "emergency". It never was an emergency in the first place anyway, since most of the spending won't occur for another 18 months.

It could be worse, you could live here in Chicago. The home of corrupt politicians and the Democratic Machine.

It's going to be a long 4 years....


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## strider72

LibertyToad said:


> Yeah, it's a mess...
> 
> It's going to be a long 4 years....


 Understatement of the decade...


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## PerpetualNoob

I have noticed a distinct lack of outrage at what will happen to all the thousands of Central American and Caribbean cigar rollers, who are overwhelmingly women. If we can agree to the premise that the factories will have no choice but to cut staff, is it a big logical leap to assume that some non-zero number out of those thousands will be faced with the decision to either prostitute themselves, or watch their children starve to death?

S-CHIP? A total scam, a punitive taxation plan against a powerless minority, in order to provide health care insurance for the children of people who make more money than you do.

Seriously. Supporting the S-CHIP fraud is the same as admitting that you don't care what happens to poor women and children, unless they're American and look like you.

This just occurred to me, though: Some of them will probably come into the US illegally with their whole family, where, for doing nothing more than breathing, they will then be eligible for Welfare, Food Stamps, and, ironically, S-CHIP for their kids.


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## Snake Hips

PerpetualNoob said:


> I have noticed a distinct lack of outrage at what will happen to all the thousands of Central American and Caribbean cigar rollers, who are overwhelmingly women. If we can agree to the premise that the factories will have no choice but to cut staff, is it a big logical leap to assume that some non-zero number out of those thousands will be faced with the decision to either prostitute themselves, or watch their children starve to death?
> 
> S-CHIP? A total scam, a punitive taxation plan against a powerless minority, in order to provide health care insurance for the children of people who make more money than you do.
> 
> Seriously. Supporting the S-CHIP fraud is the same as admitting that you don't care what happens to poor women and children, unless they're American and look like you.
> 
> This just occurred to me, though: Some of them will probably come into the US illegally with their whole family, where, for doing nothing more than breathing, they will then be eligible for Welfare, Food Stamps, and, ironically, S-CHIP for their kids.


You make a very good point. Thanks for expanding my thinking on this subject.


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## truckinusa

Snake Hips said:


> You make a very good point. Thanks for expanding my thinking on this subject.


 I love the Finck 1893. It is a newer blend. Full Bodied. Think I am going to order a box before this nonsense starts. Linky :


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## truckinusa

sboyajian said:


> I'm tempted to buy something from Finck just to help them through it.


 1893 or Travis club. My favorites. Cheap too. For now.


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## ade06

LibertyToad said:


> It's going to be a long 4 years....


It can't be any longer than the 8 years which got us into this mess to begin with.:kicknuts:


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## FN in MT

ade06 said:


> It can't be any longer than the 8 years which got us into this mess to begin with.:kicknuts:


 I'm not posting to get into a pissin' match over politics....But DO remember that the same SCHIP tax Bill was on President Bush's desk TWICE and he refused to sign it.

FN in MT


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## Puro_Angler

PerpetualNoob said:


> S-CHIP? A total scam, a punitive taxation plan against a powerless minority, in order to provide health care insurance for the children of people who make more money than you do.


Not necessarily. Those people who make more money than you do will have to pay an out of pocket expense to cover premiums and/or co-pays. CHIP is not medicaid. Parents, depending on income and household size, will pay certain amounts based on a sliding scale. Of course, this varies state to state and is the current way things are running. I don't know whether this will change or not based on the new plan. Also keep in mind that CHIP insurance is an alternative to standard health insurance, which is expensive and to a certain degree, useless. Standard health insurance often denies or limits the amount of treatment a child (and adults) gets to minimize expenditures. 
I understand that the SCHIP bill will severly impact our hobby and pleasure, but lets look at the big picture -- Millions of uninsured children. I work for a non-profit organization that treats children in desperate need of care, most who are uninsured and have no place else to go. Most of the time treatments per child are few and we must rely on parents/caregivers heeding our advice and doing the best they can at home. 
An even bigger picture: The staggeing amount of children being diagnosed with autism or in the group of autism spectrum disorders. I'm sure many of you have heard something about autism within the past few years. There's a reason for that -- 1 in 150 children are diagnosed with the disorder. If you've never met or seen a person with ASD, chances are you will soon. The causes of autism are still very debatable and I will leave it at that, I think I've said enough. 
This is a very hard line to draw for me, as I'm a passionate cigar smoker. However, I'm more concerned about the rising number of sick kids. I say lets give this a chance and see what happens.


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## truckinusa

Puro_Angler said:


> Not necessarily. Those people who make more money than you do will have to pay an out of pocket expense to cover premiums and/or co-pays. CHIP is not medicaid. Parents, depending on income and household size, will pay certain amounts based on a sliding scale. Of course, this varies state to state and is the current way things are running. I don't know whether this will change or not based on the new plan. Also keep in mind that CHIP insurance is an alternative to standard health insurance, which is expensive and to a certain degree, useless. Standard health insurance often denies or limits the amount of treatment a child (and adults) gets to minimize expenditures.
> I understand that the SCHIP bill will severly impact our hobby and pleasure, but lets look at the big picture -- Millions of uninsured children. I work for a non-profit organization that treats children in desperate need of care, most who are uninsured and have no place else to go. Most of the time treatments per child are few and we must rely on parents/caregivers heeding our advice and doing the best they can at home.
> An even bigger picture: The staggeing amount of children being diagnosed with autism or in the group of autism spectrum disorders. I'm sure many of you have heard something about autism within the past few years. There's a reason for that -- 1 in 150 children are diagnosed with the disorder. If you've never met or seen a person with ASD, chances are you will soon. The causes of autism are still very debatable and I will leave it at that, I think I've said enough.
> This is a very hard line to draw for me, as I'm a passionate cigar smoker. However, I'm more concerned about the rising number of sick kids. I say lets give this a chance and see what happens.


 I just think that the tax should be spread evenly. Where do cigars and children coincide?

*Enrollment Fees (for 12-month enrollment period): Charge​*At or below 150 % of FPL $0
Above 150% up to and including 185% of FPL $35
Above 185% up to and including 200% of FPL $50​*Co-Pays (per visit):
At or below 100% of FPL Charge​*Office Visit $3
Non-Emergency ER $3
Generic Drug $0
Brand Drug $3
Cost-sharing Cap 1.25% (of family's income)*
Facility Co-pay, Inpatient $10​*Above 100% up to and including 150% of FPL Charge​*Office Visit $5
Non-Emergency ER $5
Generic Drug $0
Brand Drug $5
Cost-sharing Cap 1.25% (of family's income)*
Facility Co-pay, Inpatient (per admission) $25​*Above 150% up to and including 185% of FPL Charge​*Office Visit $7
Non-Emergency ER $50
Generic Drug $5
Brand Drug $20
Cost-sharing Cap 2.5% (of family's income)*
Facility Co-pay, Inpatient (per admission) $50​*Above 185% up to and including 200% of FPL Charge​*Office Visit $10
Non-Emergency ER $50
Generic Drug $5
Brand Drug $20
Cost-sharing Cap 2.5% (of family's income)*​Facility Co-pay, Inpatient (per admission) $100

Even at 185% to 200% of the Federal Poverty Level the plan is great! I wish I had these copays on my insurance and I have Blue Cross.


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## e-man

Why don't they just fix health care for everyone like they said they would? Then they wouldn't need to fund SCHIP seperately. 

Oh that's right...Obama just said that to get elected. My mistake.

They should tax organized religion. Isn't it their duty to help the poor?


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## stfoley

For anyone interested, here's the CRS report on SCHIP tax increase: http://mirror.wikileaks.morphium.info/wikileaks-crs-reports/RS22681.pdf

At the least, it offers some insight as to what's going on in the heads of our represenatives.


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## T_Money

Puro_Angler said:


> Not necessarily. Those people who make more money than you do will have to pay an out of pocket expense to cover premiums and/or co-pays. CHIP is not medicaid. Parents, depending on income and household size, will pay certain amounts based on a sliding scale. Of course, this varies state to state and is the current way things are running. I don't know whether this will change or not based on the new plan. Also keep in mind that CHIP insurance is an alternative to standard health insurance, which is expensive and to a certain degree, useless. Standard health insurance often denies or limits the amount of treatment a child (and adults) gets to minimize expenditures.
> I understand that the SCHIP bill will severly impact our hobby and pleasure, but lets look at the big picture -- Millions of uninsured children. I work for a non-profit organization that treats children in desperate need of care, most who are uninsured and have no place else to go. Most of the time treatments per child are few and we must rely on parents/caregivers heeding our advice and doing the best they can at home.
> An even bigger picture: The staggeing amount of children being diagnosed with autism or in the group of autism spectrum disorders. I'm sure many of you have heard something about autism within the past few years. There's a reason for that -- 1 in 150 children are diagnosed with the disorder. If you've never met or seen a person with ASD, chances are you will soon. The causes of autism are still very debatable and I will leave it at that, I think I've said enough.
> This is a very hard line to draw for me, as I'm a passionate cigar smoker. However, I'm more concerned about the rising number of sick kids. I say lets give this a chance and see what happens.


This is the kind of thinking that lead us into this mess to begin with. You think that children not getting the care they need is bad, right? The question that should be answered isn't whether kids not getting care is bad, it is whether or not the government (which is the only entity in this country with the implicit and express power to forcefully take your resources) should fund the program through taxation. If you give a shit about progress and individual rights, the answer is a blindingly obvious, NO! But people like you, with bleeding hearts (which isn't neccessarily a bad thing) decide that it's ok to violate individual rights for a "greater good" that you cannot define.


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## Brule

This is the problem with the "democracy" we, as a country, have shifted toward compared to the constitutional republic which the US was founded as. If 51% of the population can randomly do whatever it wishes to the other 49%, that is NOT freedom. The ability to go after a unpopular minority (such as smokers) is a slap in the face to every single citizen, smoker or not.

By the way, is there a defined date as to when exactly this tax will kick in? I haven't bought any smokes for awhile (winter, nowhere to smoke regularly) but want to make sure and buy a few boxes before it is too late.


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## hotreds

March 30 is what I've heard. And you are correct- that is why our friends are trying to put(and have just about succeeded)51% of the voting population on the government payroll in one way or another. That way, they will continue in power forever- who will kill the golden goose that pays you to sit on your growing butt to watch soap operas and reality TV? If you have kids and grandkids, you need to be _very afraid_!


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## Puro_Angler

T_Money said:


> This is the kind of thinking that lead us into this mess to begin with. You think that children not getting the care they need is bad, right? The question that should be answered isn't whether kids not getting care is bad, it is whether or not the government (which is the only entity in this country with the implicit and express power to forcefully take your resources) should fund the program through taxation. If you give a shit about progress and individual rights, the answer is a blindingly obvious, NO! But people like you, with bleeding hearts (which isn't neccessarily a bad thing) decide that it's ok to violate individual rights for a "greater good" that you cannot define.


What progress and individual rights has the past eight (10,12,16) years gotten us? There's no bleeding heart here, I'm just calling it like I see it. Facts were all I pointed out. Sorry it rubbed you the wrong way.


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## RaiderinKS

LibertyToad said:


> Yeah, it's a mess. YoBama rushes in his spending package since it is such an "emergency" and then jets off here to Chicago for a 3-day weekend. So much for the "emergency". It never was an emergency in the first place anyway, *since most of the spending won't occur for another 18 months*.
> 
> It could be worse, you could live here in Chicago. The home of corrupt politicians and the Democratic Machine.
> 
> It's going to be a long 4 years....


Where are you getting your bogus information? Have you read the ARRA?


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## FN in MT

Puro_Angler said:


> Not necessarily. Those people who make more money than you do will have to pay an out of pocket expense to cover premiums and/or co-pays. CHIP is not medicaid. Parents, depending on income and household size, will pay certain amounts based on a sliding scale. Of course, this varies state to state and is the current way things are running. I don't know whether this will change or not based on the new plan. Also keep in mind that CHIP insurance is an alternative to standard health insurance, which is expensive and to a certain degree, useless. Standard health insurance often denies or limits the amount of treatment a child (and adults) gets to minimize expenditures.
> I understand that the SCHIP bill will severly impact our hobby and pleasure, but lets look at the big picture -- Millions of uninsured children. I work for a non-profit organization that treats children in desperate need of care, most who are uninsured and have no place else to go. Most of the time treatments per child are few and we must rely on parents/caregivers heeding our advice and doing the best they can at home.
> An even bigger picture: The staggeing amount of children being diagnosed with autism or in the group of autism spectrum disorders. I'm sure many of you have heard something about autism within the past few years. There's a reason for that -- 1 in 150 children are diagnosed with the disorder. If you've never met or seen a person with ASD, chances are you will soon. The causes of autism are still very debatable and I will leave it at that, I think I've said enough.
> This is a very hard line to draw for me, as I'm a passionate cigar smoker. However, I'm more concerned about the rising number of sick kids. I say lets give this a chance and see what happens.


 I worked two jobs for several years so my Daughter could have the medical care she needed as she had some severe sinus issues. My wife and I paid for her care ourselves. We didn't go to the Govt. She was OUR child and our RESPONSIBILITY.

We didn't have any more children as ONE was tough enough to care for. Thats called personal responsibilty. A concept thats rare today.

I'm getting so sick and tired of "Its for the children". The lefts excuse for half of their silly plans.

Yeah I'm in half a bad mood here. Schip has opened a festering wound. I'm tired of getting govt programs shoved down my throat, and then paying for them to boot.

FN in MT


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## T_Money

Puro_Angler said:


> What progress and individual rights has the past eight (10,12,16) years gotten us? There's no bleeding heart here, I'm just calling it like I see it. Facts were all I pointed out. Sorry it rubbed you the wrong way.


I never said the past decade was good. I simply stated that violating a person's right (by forcing them to pay for a program that they do not want, and one that would've been completely unconstitutional under the original constitution) is never correct, even if the program would work and save all the children (which it won't). I still don't think you get the main point here. If you wanna help these kids, do it yourself (and it sounds like you do). The government should not be involved. No one is saying that its ok that all those kids don't get adequate care, but poisoning this country with more government isn't a very morally correct solution.


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## ssilverado60

FN in MT said:


> I worked two jobs for several years so my Daughter could have the medical care she needed as she had some severe sinus issues. My wife and I paid for her care ourselves. We didn't go to the Govt. She was OUR child and our RESPONSIBILITY.
> 
> We didn't have any more children as ONE was tough enough to care for. Thats called personal responsibilty. A concept thats rare today.
> 
> I'm getting so sick and tired of "Its for the children". The lefts excuse for half of their silly plans.
> 
> Yeah I'm in half a bad mood here. Schip has opened a festering wound. I'm tired of getting govt programs shoved down my throat, and then paying for them to boot.
> 
> FN in MT


Glad to see there are people in this country that still believen personal responsibility. I dont get to see that many people out here in cali that can understand what that means


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## ssilverado60

T_Money said:


> I never said the past decade was good. I simply stated that violating a person's right (by forcing them to pay for a program that they do not want, and one that would've been completely unconstitutional under the original constitution) is never correct, even if the program would work and save all the children (which it won't). I still don't think you get the main point here. If you wanna help these kids, do it yourself (and it sounds like you do). The government should not be involved. No one is saying that its ok that all those kids don't get adequate care, but poisoning this country with more government isn't a very morally correct solution.


HA, my 9 year old understands the constitution better than most in washington. They just do what they want and never question whether or not something is constitutional because they dont care. Its embarrassing. 
sorry i know that didnt have much to go along with what you are saying but i just cant believe how badly our great constitution has been abandonded in the government.


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## strider72

The constitution ain't been abandoned by the gov't... it's been sued out of creation.


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## Hot Stuff x

T_Money said:


> I never said the past decade was good. I simply stated that violating a person's right (by forcing them to pay for a program that they do not want, and one that would've been completely unconstitutional under the original constitution) is never correct, even if the program would work and save all the children (which it won't). I still don't think you get the main point here. If you wanna help these kids, do it yourself (and it sounds like you do). The government should not be involved. No one is saying that its ok that all those kids don't get adequate care, but poisoning this country with more government isn't a very morally correct solution.


+1

Charitable acts aren't charity when they are forced by the government.


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## strider72

I was at Lowe's Saturday and when a cashier asked one customer to roundup and get a MDA Shamrock, he said no, let the gov't give to them.... I almost said "Don't you know Obama and the SOB Democrats will save us all(from ourselves)."


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## Addiction

Wow, just wow. I don't agree with SCHIP mostly, but the raging in this thread is over the top.


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## strider72

Well... let's see. If I understand the story correctly, we are paying $.50 on the $1.00 we make now in income/sales/luxury/gov't-screw-you-over taxes now but hey, we should feel guilty and pay more for their socialist bs programs. I mean they charge you taxes on gas, water, food, and other necessary items and that is horse****.


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## ssilverado60

Addiction said:


> Wow, just wow. I don't agree with SCHIP mostly, but the raging in this thread is over the top.


whats going on in washington is what i would consider over the top


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## Brule

ssilverado60 said:


> whats going on in washington is what i would consider over the top


I'm actually quite impressed with the reaction of this thread. I've been rather pessimistic recently but it's good to see other people have similar reactions and we're not completely overtaken by numbness to the situation.


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## Silky01

So, lets add this to the thread??
House says 'no' to pet primates - CNN.com


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## sboyajian

Puro_Angler said:


> Not necessarily. Those people who make more money than you do will have to pay an out of pocket expense to cover premiums and/or co-pays. CHIP is not medicaid. Parents, depending on income and household size, will pay certain amounts based on a sliding scale. Of course, this varies state to state and is the current way things are running. I don't know whether this will change or not based on the new plan. Also keep in mind that CHIP insurance is an alternative to standard health insurance, which is expensive and to a certain degree, useless. Standard health insurance often denies or limits the amount of treatment a child (and adults) gets to minimize expenditures.
> I understand that the SCHIP bill will severly impact our hobby and pleasure, but lets look at the big picture -- Millions of uninsured children. I work for a non-profit organization that treats children in desperate need of care, most who are uninsured and have no place else to go. Most of the time treatments per child are few and we must rely on parents/caregivers heeding our advice and doing the best they can at home.
> An even bigger picture: The staggeing amount of children being diagnosed with autism or in the group of autism spectrum disorders. I'm sure many of you have heard something about autism within the past few years. There's a reason for that -- 1 in 150 children are diagnosed with the disorder. If you've never met or seen a person with ASD, chances are you will soon. The causes of autism are still very debatable and I will leave it at that, I think I've said enough.
> This is a very hard line to draw for me, as I'm a passionate cigar smoker. However, I'm more concerned about the rising number of sick kids. I say lets give this a chance and see what happens.


 Let's be very honest here and still agree, while children need healthcare, SCHIP is a broken system much like all of our health care solutions.

In 2007 when I was out of work, I lost my insurance. My son was born with a major heart defect that at the time looked as though he may need surgery. At the very least I saw impending doom of medical bills as it required constant monitoring (Ultrasounds, EKG's, etc)..

When I called SCHIP to try to enroll him, they told me that unfortunately they could not cover my son, because my salary PRIOR to being laid off, was to high.

Does make any sense at all? When I had a job, I made to much. When I lost said job, i HAD made to much.. that does little for me when I am not making anything.

For what it's worth, I feel I should point out that since he was denied standard coverage under a private health plan, I had to pay for the "State mandated" one that forces insurance companies to provide coverage, but at a much higher rate. My son's healthcare when I was not working, was half of my unemployment.


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## e-man

uncballzer said:


> So, lets add this to the thread??
> House says 'no' to pet primates - CNN.com


That would mean that Obama can't keep Joe Biden anymore.

BTW- It isn't racist to call Joe Biden a monkey because he is white.


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## LibertyToad

sboyajian said:


> Does make any sense at all? When I had a job, I made to much. When I lost said job, i HAD made to much.. that does little for me when I am not making anything.


Welcome to socialized/government healthcare. It has nothing to do with children and everything to do with power, control, and money.

Elections have consequences.


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## Buddha024

strider72 said:


> Gee... a f###ed up liberal scheme that will fail... hmmm... USSR fell too.


Are you serious? Wow.


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## Buddha024

e-man said:


> They should tax organized religion. Isn't it their duty to help the poor?


Now we're talking.

:ss :w :ss


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## Buddha024

ade06 said:


> It can't be any longer than the 8 years which got us into this mess to begin with.:kicknuts:


Whoo! I thought I was completely alone here. I'm with you brother!

:ss :w :ss


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## Raybird

Buddha024 said:


> Whoo! I thought I was completely alone here. I'm with you brother!
> 
> :ss :w :ss


I just can't grasp the theory that because we have gone through eight disasterous years it's ok to make it so much worse! :ask:


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## c2000

I'm all for giving kids the same thing I got when I was a kid-----------NOTHING.



Jerry in Minnesota.


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## BlewSmoke.com

Here's an article in the Miami New Times.

Miami - Riptide 2.0 - Obama's New Cigar Tax Might Just Kill Miami's Torcedores


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## strider72

We all knew when the socialist SOBs took the White House and Congress this was going to happen. As far as some of you throwing blame on the Bush administration, the mess we are in is a Clinton Administration leftover...


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## JBravo

Brule said:


> I'm actually quite impressed with the reaction of this thread. I've been rather pessimistic recently but it's good to see other people have similar reactions and we're not completely overtaken by numbness to the situation.


I agree. I'm impressed with the reactions in this thread also. I think the current situation is only going to get worse before it gets better and I wonder how long or what will it take for people to start becoming publicly vocal (take to the streets) about it.

back to the original topic. I think some of the companies have already started raising their prices in anticipation of the new tax


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