# Brand flavors - How day do dat?



## Da Klugs (Jan 8, 2005)

Over the past couple of weeks have smoked a number of cigars from the 70's and 80's that led me to ponder ... how day do dat?

Monte #2 from the 70's. Had that distinctive Monte taste.

SLR Corona from the 80's. Had that distinctive SLR taste.

Do they do something to the tobacco in the aging / fermentation process to give these "brand flavors". Seems far fetched that blending of leaf over many years could maintain these "brand flavors" alone. 

The Sherry barrel aging of some Fuente cigars comes to mind. Anyone have any thoughts on this?


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## replicant_argent (May 13, 2006)

um..... cuban gerbil gnome magic?



I always wondered if different tobacco plantations might have some cross pollination/mutation thing going on. (not being a Habano freak, just guessing)
If the fields are owned by each company, is it possible they have just "barely" different soil chemistry and a small genetic strain mutation or variant in the actual tobacco plant?




My other guess is "I dunno, Dave, Magic?"


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## ToddziLLa (Oct 17, 2005)

Good topic. Awhile ago, when describing flavors I have tasted in the many cigars I have smoked to my fiance, she asked "Cool, so do they do that on purpose?"

I was stumped! Everyone knows how passionate and obsessed I am with my cigars and I was almost embarrassed I didn't have an answer!


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## rumballs (Mar 15, 2005)

I wonder the same things sometimes.
The other day I had a Partagas Petit Coronas Especiales from around 1980, then a Partagas Coronas Senior from 2005. Both had the same flavor. I'm sure you can guess which was more complex and stronger and tastier, but still - remarkably similar.


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

Do you think the brands have a terrior like wine? The same crop, same farm, same blend is an ideal like a dog breed, and they try to maintain that ideal?

We read about varietals coming and going out of Cuba, so I also wonder how they can really maintain a consistent taste among so many brands and such a narrow scope of raw material.


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## ResIpsa (Mar 8, 2006)

forgive me for I am DA Noob. and my answer may be WAY off base. But to draw an analogy to coffee beans or even wine (i think, not a wine expert), the flavor has much to do with the soil the plant comes from. Year to year an Ethiopian Harrar coffee bean is going to taste the same when brewed, more or less with a litltle variation. Using the same logic, if the tobacco being rolled for Partagas cigars comes from the same farms year after year, the taste should remain pretty consistent. Of course, I am more likely completely confused


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## Baric (Jun 14, 2006)

I always assumed the soil and other variables (sunlight etc) led to the actual tobacco leaves having a different flavour (much like the same plants grown in different acidity soils will have different colour flowers). The sunlight etc could stimulate sugar production etc (im not a biologist as is evident) but these things in diff combos create those different flavours. Plus the inherent difference in different strains of tobacco plant.

Edit: Must have posted at the same time as ResIspa - soil analogy thing is the same, well put ResIspa.


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## j6ppc (Jun 5, 2006)

mosesbotbol said:


> Do you think the brands have a terrior like wine?


Bingo. IMHO if that were not the case then the Cuban Seed cigars would taste a whole lot more like habanos than they do.

having consistant brand/flavor profiles over the years is probably achieved through careful blending.

Someone refresh my memory - there was a fairly significant change in many belends in the not so distant past right??


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## Da Klugs (Jan 8, 2005)

My theory is that they age monte leaf surounded by # 2 pencils and coffee beans.

SLR's in red wine barrels.

etc.


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## rumballs (Mar 15, 2005)

I think it's clear that soil can have a big effect.
but is a brand flavor as simple as x brand uses leaves from this farm, whereas y brand uses leaves from this other farm?
Cuban vs non-Cuban soil is clearly quite different, but how much variation is there within Cuba?

That is, how much of a brand's flavor is due to:
* where the leaves are grown
* which type of tobacco is grown
* which type of leaves from the same plant are used (ligero, etc)
* aging/fermentation

I would guess it is not just soil, but I don't have any idea how much each variable comes into play...


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## rumballs (Mar 15, 2005)

Da Klugs said:


> My theory is that they age monte leaf surounded by # 2 pencils and coffee beans.


i thought the pencil lead flavor was only introduced in CA's humidors
:r


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## Puffin Fresh (Nov 1, 2006)

Da Klugs said:


> My theory is that they age monte leaf surounded by # 2 pencils and coffee beans.
> 
> SLR's in red wine barrels.
> 
> etc.


:r #2 pencils. So I am assuming cremosas are aged surrounded by just plain old #2?


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## CrazyFool (Oct 2, 2005)

how they did that, ill never know. why its no longer like that i have an idea on but cant be sure on...

one thing is for sure, not all brands but certian smokes have a near-identical flavor. Punch and Hoyo are two that taste so similar to me


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## joed (Nov 12, 2005)

i watched that video "the fabulous cuban cigar" and they talked about how the most experienced of their folks take and sort the leaves - they wind up with more than 40 different "flavors" of leaves before they are rolled. The sorting seems to be based on some magic that these individuals have - ne bundle of leaves - from one farm - one harvest - may have tobacco leaves that get sorted into all 40 different "flavors" - After the leaves are all sorted - they go into the secret room where the blends are assembled - they follow the recipe for each cigar - so - how do they do that - practice, practice, practice. 

To put it in perspective - the eskimoos have more than 80 different words for snow - and there are particular types of snow that are better for building houses "igloos" to us southerners.

If you haven't had a chance to watch that video about cuban cigars - you really should try and get a copy.


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## wij (May 25, 2006)

This is a very interesting thread.

From watching a DVD on Cuban cigars, I was under the impression that all the farms received the same seedlings from a government run agency. Also, I was under the impression that once the farmers dried the harvest, their crop was sent to a collection point to then be delivered to the factories. 

I really have no basis for this information, only my impression. Thus, I have been VERY interested in how the blends get their unique flavors.


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## ResIpsa (Mar 8, 2006)

mmblz said:


> I think it's clear that soil can have a big effect.
> but is a brand flavor as simple as x brand uses leaves from this farm, whereas y brand uses leaves from this other farm?
> Cuban vs non-Cuban soil is clearly quite different, but how much variation is there within Cuba?
> 
> ...


I'm not disagreeing with you Julian, but to fall back on my coffee analogy: How much variation can there be in Cuban soil? Well, as an example two of the more well known Ethiopian coffee beans are Harrar and Yirgacheffe. These beans taste NOTHING alike, I love Harrar, and can't stand Yirg. If there can be that much variation in Ethiopian soil, I'd say the same holds true for Cuban soil.


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## ToddziLLa (Oct 17, 2005)

Greerzilla said:


> :r #2 pencils. So I am assuming cremosas are aged surrounded by just plain old #2?


Good one!!! :r

Good thoughts too ResIpsa, mmblz, and joed.


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## Puffy69 (Sep 8, 2005)

Consistency is the key I guess..Same dirt over the years..


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## rumballs (Mar 15, 2005)

ResIpsa said:


> I'm not disagreeing with you Julian, but to fall back on my coffee analogy: How much variation can there be in Cuban soil? Well, as an example two of the more well known Ethiopian coffee beans are Harrar and Yirgacheffe. These beans taste NOTHING alike, I love Harrar, and can't stand Yirg. If there can be that much variation in Ethiopian soil, I'd say the same holds true for Cuban soil.


i'm not arguing either, as i really don't know what i'm talking about 
i'm sure there's some variation, just not sure if that's the primary factor.

also, I have almost zero coffee knowledge, but some quick searching seems to say that yirgacheffe is washed, and harrar is not. i wonder how they would compare if they were processed in exactly the same way...


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## ResIpsa (Mar 8, 2006)

mmblz said:


> i'm not arguing either, as i really don't know what i'm talking about
> i'm sure there's some variation, just not sure if that's the primary factor.
> 
> also, I have almost zero coffee knowledge, but some quick searching seems to say that yirgacheffe is washed, and harrar is not. i wonder how they would compare if they were processed in exactly the same way...


i bet i know less about what i'm talking about than you do, :r. As far as the difference in flavors between harrar and yirg are concerned tho, I can tell you this. When i say they taste nothing alike I really mean nothing. Harrar has a very blueberry like taste to it. Yirg tastes flowery, like tea. And I don't mean tea as in it tastes _weak, I mean if you closed your eyes and drank it you could very well not know it was coffee, you'd think it was tea._


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## burninator (Jul 11, 2006)

My understanding (as terribly cursory as it is), from my limited reading on the subject, is that joed has really hit the nail on the head. The Cuban cigar industry would be lost if not for the intricate knowledge passed through the generations by the experienced blenders that call the island home.


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## CrazyFool (Oct 2, 2005)

Is it fair to say this- Trinidad (and perhaps others like the thin and light wrapped HDM line) have a truley distinct taste from (but not far from,) other cubans...?

what do you think? any cubans from oddly placed farms like TTT, which i belaive is grown in the south..(west?) or Hoyo which the crops grown next to a dip, ditch or hole. do these or any else stand out to any of you giving them that distinctive brand taste...


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## burninator (Jul 11, 2006)

ResIpsa said:


> i bet i know less about what i'm talking about than you do, :r


There's a contest in the makings!


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## 4WheelVFR (Jun 27, 2006)

Another question, which may be indirectly related, do these Cuban farms rotate crops? I understand that tobacco is a rather demanding crop on the soil. I'm curious as to how they can get consistent flavor and quality without doing so. I've heard that some do rotate and some do not.......who knows??


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## rumballs (Mar 15, 2005)

maybe a good start would be the Cuban Factories book that jgros001 is thinking about trying a group buy for... 
i'd love to buy it myself but can't afford it at the moment...


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## lenguamor (Nov 23, 2006)

Cuba is blessed with being the point of convergence for a perfect complement of factors that make it the best place on earth to grow tobacco.

The difference among brands stems from the minute differences in the volcanic soils in the various Vuelta Abajo/Vuelta Arriba growing regions.

















Nah, it's gnomes.


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## joed (Nov 12, 2005)

Yes - the soils from the different areas make the tobaccos different - but a lot of other things also has an effect on the flavor of the leaves - I think that was one of the more interesting things about the video - like I said - one bundle of leaves can be sorted into many of the different "flavors" that the sorters have. It's more than "this farm produces these leaves"


The video also covers the seedlings and the development of hybrids. It's a good 40 minute video.


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## donp (Mar 5, 2006)

I have been thinking about this as well, and not only regarding cubans but with NC's as well. Surely the people who blend and roll them play a big role in the end product, and the type and quality of the tobacco has to be important as well. I am sure of one thing though, the people who make them plays a large role, otherwise they would all taste the same, and there wouldn't be much difference between the cohibas versus the other brands.


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## ResIpsa (Mar 8, 2006)

joed said:


> Yes - the soils from the different areas make the tobaccos different - but a lot of other things also has an effect on the flavor of the leaves - I think that was one of the more interesting things about the video - like I said - one bundle of leaves can be sorted into many of the different "flavors" that the sorters have. It's more than "this farm produces these leaves"
> 
> The video also covers the seedlings and the development of hybrids. It's a good 40 minute video.


if I missed the info sorry, but where did you get this Joe?


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## bassrocker (Oct 26, 2006)

Tabacco was discovered in Cuba in the 1400's ,
and have been doing the same prosessing of the plants since the 1600's
It is the consistency of the blending of the leaves , The ligero leaves are the strongest of the leaves and are placed in the center of the cigar. Then the seco leaves (aromatic and flavorful ) and then the volado leaves ( aroma and burning qualities ) then the binder mostly the volado as well then finally the wrapper. 
Also they say that 93 % of the flavor and combustion comes from the (filler and binder ) and only 7 % from the wrapper

In simple terms , they have done it the same way for hundreds of years . the same fields same way to blend the leaves

Mike


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## Blaylock-cl (Apr 28, 2006)

This is an excellent and informative thread.

As stated, the Cuban cigars have been produced for over 400 years. The soil, temperature, humidity, etc. affects the flavor during the growing phase. Next comes the harvesting and aging process, curring and fermentation in barns under control conditions. And finally the blending and rolling by qualified and experienced people, passed down from generation to generation. The final product having a consistant and often distinct flavor.


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## wij (May 25, 2006)

ResIpsa said:


> if I missed the info sorry, but where did you get this Joe?


Not meaning butt in and answer for joe but I think this is the dvd.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_d/102-8442687-9593729?url=search-alias%3Ddvd&field-keywords=cuban+cigar

I've also seen it on netflix.


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## bassrocker (Oct 26, 2006)

wij said:


> Not meaning butt in and answer for joe but I think this is the dvd.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_d/102-8442687-9593729?url=search-alias%3Ddvd&field-keywords=cuban+cigar
> 
> I've also seen it on netflix.


I bought this DVD also, very informative .
I was suprised that the warehouses and buildings were so old and what seemed to be in bad condition. It goes to show that they still do things the same way as for hundreds of years ago.


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## joed (Nov 12, 2005)

ResIpsa said:


> if I missed the info sorry, but where did you get this Joe?


Boy, I wish I knew the source - I was given a copy of this video by one of the other members of the jungle I have no idea where he got it from. If I can find out - I'll let you know.


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## lenguamor (Nov 23, 2006)

joed said:


> Yes - the soils from the different areas make the tobaccos different - but a lot of other things also has an effect on the flavor of the leaves - I think that was one of the more interesting things about the video - like I said - one bundle of leaves can be sorted into many of the different "flavors" that the sorters have. It's more than "this farm produces these leaves"
> 
> The video also covers the seedlings and the development of hybrids. It's a good 40 minute video.


Factor in the many tobacco varietals, plus the different drying/fermenting/aging times/locations/processes, and you have thousands of possible, specific ways of influencing or manipulating the flavors of tobacco for different brandings.


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## joed (Nov 12, 2005)

wij said:


> Not meaning butt in and answer for joe but I think this is the dvd.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_d/102-8442687-9593729?url=search-alias%3Ddvd&field-keywords=cuban+cigar
> 
> I've also seen it on netflix.


yeap - that's the one - good stuff - after the sorting - there is a "secret" room where the blending takes place - my understanding from talking to one of the brothers that has been there - is that they are very serious about protecting the blend recipies. Sounds good anyway.


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## Lumpold (Apr 28, 2005)

I hear they have big vats of different flavoured liquid crack that correspond to different brands.


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