# Troya Clasico: A new cigar by Don Pepin



## Glacierman (Nov 16, 2006)

Here is the press-release from Lignum-2, Inc., the distributors of Troya:
_
*CELEBRATE THE RETURN OF A CUBAN CLASSIC!*

Troya cigars, whose legendary motto heralds it as "The benchmark for fine cigars," can now stand behind it with a renewed strength - and in more ways than one. Lignum-2, the exclusive distributor for Troya Clasico, has announced the Limited Edition release of an exciting new selection blended by Don Pepin Garcia, unquestionably one of the most revered master cigar blenders in the industry.

Troya Clasico captures the soul, spirit and character of fine Cuban cigars in a luxurious Nicaraguan puro.

With help from the gifted hands of Maestro Tobaquero, Jose Pepin Garcia, Troya has chosen the most select tobaccos grown in the fertile Jalapa region of Nicaragua, including an oily, coffee-hued, Corojo Oscuro wrapper.

This extraordinary leaf surrounds a blend of dark, rich-tasting Corojo and Criollo fillers and binders adorned with a traditional, Cuban-style triple cap. The experience is a smoke medium to full body in flavor, enticing the palate with earthly, sweet tobacco flavors and an intriguing spiciness. From the sweetness of the wrapper to the exquisite aroma, the cigar is robust and well-balanced in the Troya tradition, yet not overpowering.

Handmade at Tabacalera Cubana in Esteli, Nicaragua, Troya Clasico cigars are rolled by only the most experienced torcedores in three popluar shapes:

Troya Clasico XVIII (5"x 54 Robusto)
Troya Clasico LIV (6" x 52 Toro)
Troya Clasico LXIII (7" x 50 Churchill)_

I'm currently writing up an article for Wikipedia on the Troya brand which will be ready to go next week.


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## monetrey (Dec 5, 2006)

Smoked a churchill earlier this week. I will probably smoke the toro later today. A very good flavorful cigar.


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## mrbl8k (Jan 4, 2007)

very cool. Thanks for the heads up!


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## Boston_Dude05 (Oct 10, 2006)

Another one eh? Look fwd to seeing the Wiki article.


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## donp (Mar 5, 2006)

Here we go again :dr


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## BigVito (Jan 1, 2000)

waiting


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## Glacierman (Nov 16, 2006)

Boston_Dude05 said:


> Another one eh? Look fwd to seeing the Wiki article.


I'll post a notice in this thread when it is up and running. Tom Irwin, Marketing Manager of Lignum-2, has been very helpful by providing answers to my questions, and quickly, too!

Now, if I could just find someplace to pick up a few singles, I'd give 'em a go. So far, the only sources for Troya & Troya X-Tra have box only sales, and I've had no luck locating an online retailer that has the Clasicos (but then, these were only just released in January). This is one of the trade-offs I make by living where I do, but I don't mind.

Cheers!
:cb


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## Cigar Jockey (Feb 12, 2006)

$$$ Ouch


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## montecristo#2 (May 29, 2006)

So these will be cigars #13,547,988 - 13,547,991 blended by Pepin.  :r :r 

Seriously, he must blend cigars in his sleep.


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## Glacierman (Nov 16, 2006)

The Troya Wikipedia article is now live.

Cheers!


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## Glacierman (Nov 16, 2006)

montecristo#2 said:


> So these will be cigars #13,547,988 - 13,547,991 blended by Pepin.  :r :r
> 
> Seriously, he must blend cigars in his sleep.


I find it fascinating that everyone gets so cranked up over the fact that Pepin has created the blends for as many cigars as he has, as if somehow that is a bad thing.

I don't understand this. He is a Master Blender, after all, and that is part of what he does for a living. That he also then contracts to make them is the other part of his work. He owns a business, after all.

OK, I recognize that some have worried that all that blending and making sticks for others will result in an overall reduction in quality, of his own cigars and those of others. Maybe that is so, but then again, maybe not. A business must grow to do more than just hang on. Grow, or die. He wants to grow. Growth need not result in an inferior product.

I think Don Pepin has a pretty good grasp on what he is doing. Give him some time, gents.

Yeah, I'm a Pepin slave, and proud of it!

Which reminds me, I'm almost out of Havana Soul.


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## Boston_Dude05 (Oct 10, 2006)

Thanks for the info! Also a Pepin fan. Although I understand his need to grow and I enjoy the new cigars, I find that by launching or being involved in so many brands it becomes confusing to the consumer. Why not create just one brand, like the next Cohiba, Montecristo, Hoyo etc.., and put all his smokes in it? I find the marketing strategy to be a bit unfocused. There could be an opportunity to build a tremendous brand as opposed to being all over the place.


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## montecristo#2 (May 29, 2006)

Boston_Dude05 said:


> Thanks for the info! Also a Pepin fan. Although I understand his need to grow and I enjoy the new cigars, I find that by launching or being involved in so many brands it becomes confusing to the consumer.


:tpd:

Glacierman, you make a valid point, he is a business man and he should produce as many cigars as the rollers in Miami and Nicaragua can make.

My problem with Pepin is the same problem I have with Rocky Patel and that is over-saturating the market with too many products (I guess you could say the same thing about the Fuentes as well). Although I have no proof, I honestly believe some re-banding has to be going on and that not every Pepin line is different (no, I have not tried them all). From all the house blends (CigarKing, De La Concha, Holts, CI. . . ) to the different DPG lines, the Padilla Miami's & Signatures, the three different serious of Tatuajes. . . he is using the same stock of tobacco to make all of these different cigars. Why does he need to introduce a new cigar label every 2-4 weeks? It seems like every retailer wants to cash in on the "Pepin craze" - at some point he should really stop making all of these different lines before he starts to make inferior products just because someone asked him to.

Maybe I am wrong, for all I know, if you were to add up all the cigars blended by Pepin, it might be considerable less than the Fuentes or RP.

I saw the same problem during the baseball card boom. At one point, baseball card companies were producing 10-15 different sets per year. It was impossible to keep up.

This is just my opinion, in the grand scheme of things it really doesn't matter. Of all the cigars blended by Pepin, the miami-made Tatuajes are still my favorite. The only other Pepin's I buy are the DPG Series JJ and the Blue labels. Sadly, I have lost interest in tracking down all the other varieties blended by Pepin.

Just my :2


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## El Gato (Apr 2, 2003)

Dang, I was just in Vegas this weekend and a local B&M had these. The owner had no idea where these where made so I passed on them. I tried to ask him about them, but he had no idea that they had originally been made in the Davidoff factory (I mean the latest ones, not the originals from Cuba). I can't believe I missed a chance at trying another Pepin Garcia because the guy had no clue. What really pisses me off is that I had no clue also! I must be gettin' old!
Thank you for the heads up. I'll keep my eyes open for more.


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## NCRadioMan (Feb 28, 2005)

El Gato said:


> Dang, I was just in Vegas this weekend and a local B&M had these. The owner had no idea where these where made so I passed on them. I tried to ask him about them, but he had no idea that they had originally been made in the Davidoff factory (I mean the latest ones, not the originals from Cuba). I can't believe I missed a chance at trying another Pepin Garcia because the guy had no clue. What really pisses me off is that I had no clue also! I must be gettin' old!
> Thank you for the heads up. I'll keep my eyes open for more.


All he had to do was look on the bottom of the box. Shows Pepin's signature clearly. :r


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## JBI (Oct 20, 2006)

Glacierman said:


> I'll post a notice in this thread when it is up and running. Tom Irwin, Marketing Manager of Lignum-2, has been very helpful by providing answers to my questions, and quickly, too!
> 
> Now, if I could just find someplace to pick up a few singles, I'd give 'em a go. So far, the only sources for Troya & Troya X-Tra have box only sales, and I've had no luck locating an *online retailer that has the Clasicos *(but then, these were only just released in January). This is one of the trade-offs I make by living where I do, but I don't mind.
> 
> ...


http://www.famous-smoke.com/cigars/search/stats.cfm/inum/24893/kws/ZWW1918


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## sonick (Jan 30, 2007)

Blending often isn't a bad thing, look at Nestor Placensia......


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## Glacierman (Nov 16, 2006)

montecristo#2 said:


> :tpd:
> 
> My problem with Pepin is the same problem I have with Rocky Patel and that is over-saturating the market with too many products . . . at some point he should really stop making all of these different lines before he starts to make inferior products just because someone asked him to.


This seems to be the general consensus among the critics, but I think it is off-kilter.

We must understand that Pepin is three things: a cigar manufacturer (with two factories), a blending consultant AND a cigar brand owner (the Don Pepin Blue, JJ, and Black).

As a consultant, people hire him to blend a cigar for them (function 2) and usually to make it as well (function 1). Such a cigar is not his, it is his client's. They came to him, seeking to benefit from his expertise. They could have gone to Oliva or Plasencia, but they chose to go to Garcia. [There is only one instance of which I am aware wherein Pepin approached the brand owner with a suggestion for a new line, and that is with Lignum-2 and the Troya Classico.]

To refer to the client bands as "Pepins cigars" is disingenuous at best, outright misleading at the worst. To suggest "he should really stop making all of these different lines before he starts to make inferior products just because someone asked him to" is missing the point completely. He is a CONSULTANT/MANUFACTURER. He makes things for CLIENTS who wish to make use of his skills and facilities.

For example, Tatuaje is not Pepin Garcia's brand. He developed the blends and makes the cigars for Tatuaje Cigars, Inc., owned by Pete Johnson, who hired Pepin to aid in developing the blends (Pete knew what he wanted, Pepin made it happen) and to manufacture them.

Fuente was mentioned as a possible comparison. Whether or not the Fuente lines are too many and varied is beyond the scope of this post. But in addition to their own large line of cigars, they also make many brands for others, such as Diana Silvius, Sosa (one line), Holt's, Ashton, J. C. Newman (several brands), etc., etc., because Fuente is also a MANUFACTURER and CONSULTANT as well as a brand owner.

I am of the opinion that all this hub-bub over Pepin is utterly misplaced. For one, I am not a master blender and am in no position to judge whether he repeats himself or just slaps a new client band on an existing blend or not, and any such speculation on my part would be, I think, presumptuous.

In all honesty, I wonder if the real reason for this great concern over Pepin is not three-fold: [1] he is a relative new-comer and [2] he has created & made some fantastic sticks so far and [3] we worry that this is in jeopardy. The rest of it is naught but our seeking to justify our worry.

One thing you can be certain of, however: no matter what happens with client brands, you can bet your booty that he will not allow his OWN brands to suffer.


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## Coffee Grounds (Feb 14, 2007)

Interesting debate

I know a little about branding rights if that is what is going on.

What ever industry you are in If you become so famous that everyone in that industry knows and loves you then your name is worth a lot. Don Pepin is a good example. 
There is a possiblity that he is just giving branding rights. That could mean that they (who ever they are) are approaching the Don Pepin line and saying we want to use your name and her is $40,000 to do that. He could try the product and say yes this is good enough to have my name on it.

I don't really understand the cigar industry but why would he make another cigar for his competition? Unless he is getting a piece? Then again he would make more money producing his own goods. 

I think the Don Pepin line is so hot that he could brand the name out and make a very nice chunk of money. 

Then again I could be way off.


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## Glacierman (Nov 16, 2006)

Coffee Grounds said:


> Interesting debate
> 
> I know a little about branding rights if that is what is going on.....
> I don't really understand the cigar industry but why would he make another cigar for his competition? Unless he is getting a piece? Then again he would make more money producing his own goods.
> ...


Yes, that is a common practice (sports stars, etc.), but in this case, his name does not go on these other cigars (Havana Soul, Top Shelf Signature Select, etc, etc.), but his name, as creator and manufacturer, are clearly associated with the brands, as it is a major selling point.

Why would he make cigars for his competitors? Why not? Fuente makes cigars for their "competitors" (Ashton, _et al_.), but it does not hurt them. Revenue is revenue, regardless of the source. Any revenue lost to Silvius, Sosa, Ashton, etc. from sales is at least replaced, if not more than replaced, by the revenue from the blending/manufacturing contract with those clients.

Further, in Don Pepin's case, it is a great way of getting yourself known in a hurry. The more products out there with his name associated with it, the better it is for his own brand. And since he is a relative newcomer, it makes it a lot easier to build your reputation.

He will continue to blend/make cigars for clients, but he will save the best for himself, which only makes sense. That is not to say that a client will not get a high-quality product, for he will, but the best will be reserved for the Don Pepin brand.

That is my take on this entire topic, and with this post, I shall put my contributions to rest and let others have at it!

Cheers to all!


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## Coffee Grounds (Feb 14, 2007)

Very interesting.

Who really knows the inter dealings of the cigar industry?

I think you would really have to be a part of it to know what is really going down.

It looks to be you have a lot of moving parts to. Cigar makers,cigar blenders, distribuitors, tobacco growers, tobacco wharehouses, and then you have the big boys that do it all Cigar General and Swiss match.

When you see a company like C.A.O sell out then you know there must be some serious limitations for the small cigar maker.

Thus back to my orginal point of Branding and how it could happen.


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## Boston_Dude05 (Oct 10, 2006)

Glacierman said:


> The more products out there with his name associated with it, the better it is for his own brand. And since he is a relative newcomer, it makes it a lot easier to build your reputation.


Although I can see how one can argue for this, I must disagree with Don Pepin's business strategy. Marketing 101 states that in order to be successful one must align the right products with the right products, prices, etc.. If we assume that Don Pepin's name is his brand (which it is as everyone keeps track of what types of cigars he makes, which range from brands as disparate as Top Shelf, Legends to super premiums like Padilla, Tatuajes etc.), then he has violated this basic marketing principle. It's simply not possible to be everything to everyone. Just looking at all his brands, how would you describe them? That is exactly the problem as the end consumer does not know how to associate the Pepin name. Does he make economy smokes, middle priced or luxury segment smokes or other? So in such confusion, the marketing message becomes quite blurred. The luxury segment smoker may not smoke Pepins anymore since they are associated all across the board. Similarly, the budget minded smoker may feel the economy sticks are even overpriced. This hurts profits at the company, not maximize them.

So how to fix this? I think a more careful marketing analysis of the types of consumers out there in terms of what segments exist and then tailoring cigars to these segments would work. So he can have more than 1 line of cigars, but they would be carefully thought out in terms of demographics and the target market. With such an analysis, he would probably find that he would not need the 10+ lines on the market, but perhaps just 3-4 to achieve a much greater effect, which in terms of business is sales. Having a different smoke doesn't mean it needs to be a different brand to be effective. Let's take cars for example. One can choose from a V6, V8, different colors, trims, options, yet they are all the same make. The same can be achieved in cigars. Shooting from the hip, I would say, perhaps 1 super premium line, 1 medium and 1 economy and focus promotion on these three. Right now it's difficult to promote across 10+ brands. What message would you have for each brand? And promoting 10 lines costs much more marketing dollars. I would recommend Don Pepin to keep his name on all cigars to build his own brand, but have brand extensions to reach different segments in the market. I mean Don Pepin is such a force, why partner with others and dilute his name? He should be building the next Cohiba or Montecristo. Trying to think of ways to help Pepin maximize his profits so we can enjoy more cigars :ss


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## donp (Mar 5, 2006)

You know, at first I hesitated to respond in this thread because I didn't want to step out of my box; I'm no marketing whiz. But, I can simply comment from something I do know about...what I like. So, I have smoked cigars made by Pepin for other people, and those made by him for his own label. I like them all so far, albeit some more than others but, they are all good, well made cigars. And as long as the quality of his smokes remain consistent, I will continue to buy and smoke them. I also think that the smokes he makes for other people are a perfect alignment in terms of his reputation and his expertise. In short, I will probably always buy products made by Pepin Garcia.


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## Glacierman (Nov 16, 2006)

Boston_Dude05 said:


> Although I can see how one can argue for this, I must disagree with Don Pepin's business strategy. Marketing 101 states that in order to be successful one must align the right products with the right products, prices, etc.. If we assume that Don Pepin's name is his brand (which it is as everyone keeps track of what types of cigars he makes, which range from brands as disparate as Top Shelf, Legends to super premiums like Padilla, Tatuajes etc.), then he has violated this basic marketing principle. It's simply not possible to be everything to everyone.


First, Marketing 101 doesn't always work. Nice generality, but you must be prepared to go your own route from time to time despite what the Conventional Wisdom dictates.

Second, if you equate Don Pepin's name with his brand, then you must do the same with, oh, say the Fuentes. Many people keep track of the various cigars that they make for others (Ashton, Diana Silvius, Sosa, Newman, Holt's _et alia_, yet I do not see those brands being called "Fuente brands," for they are not. But many people do buy them for the reason that Fuente makes them, and the brand owners are quick to note this association, for it is a major selling point.. All things being equal then, Fuente has also violated that so-called 'basic marketing principal'.



> Just looking at all his brands, how would you describe them? That is exactly the problem as the end consumer does not know how to associate the Pepin name. Does he make economy smokes, middle priced or luxury segment smokes or other? So in such confusion, the marketing message becomes quite blurred. The luxury segment smoker may not smoke Pepins anymore since they are associated all across the board. Similarly, the budget minded smoker may feel the economy sticks are even overpriced. This hurts profits at the company, not maximize them.,


Pepin has only one brand of any consequence: Don Pepin Garcia. I have never confused the Cigar King brands (or any of the others he makes) with his own brand, for they are not. Havana Soul, Habana Leon, _et al._ are Cigar King brands that happen to be made by Pepin, just as Holt's Classic and La Unica are made by Fuente but are not Fuente brands. That is all.



> So how to fix this? I think a more careful marketing analysis of the types of consumers out there in terms of what segments exist and then tailoring cigars to these segments would work. So he can have more than 1 line of cigars, but they would be carefully thought out in terms of demographics and the target market. With such an analysis, he would probably find that he would not need the 10+ lines on the market, but perhaps just 3-4 to achieve a much greater effect, which in terms of business is sales. Having a different smoke doesn't mean it needs to be a different brand to be effective. Let's take cars for example. One can choose from a V6, V8, different colors, trims, options, yet they are all the same make. The same can be achieved in cigars. Shooting from the hip, I would say, perhaps 1 super premium line, 1 medium and 1 economy and focus promotion on these three. Right now it's difficult to promote across 10+ brands. What message would you have for each brand? And promoting 10 lines costs much more marketing dollars. I would recommend Don Pepin to keep his name on all cigars to build his own brand, but have brand extensions to reach different segments in the market. I mean Don Pepin is such a force, why partner with others and dilute his name? He should be building the next Cohiba or Montecristo. Trying to think of ways to help Pepin maximize his profits so we can enjoy more cigars :ss


You keep missing the point. Like a design consultant or an architect design things for clients, Pepin creates blends for clients, and as the architect's clients go to great lengths to make sure that everyone knows that the Great Zambini designed their wonderful new building, so Pepin's clients advertise that the great Pepin Garcia has not only created the blend in their new Super Stick, but actually makes them. It sells cigars. And if they sell, they need more and that means more business for Pepin's factories. Revenue is revenue.

Pepin's *own* brands began with El Rey de los Habanos, then Vegas Cubanas. My own take on the development of his brands is this: as he has gained greater understanding of the Nicaraguan tobaccos he uses, primarily by practicing by making blends for other folk, he reached the point that he was ready to begin making his own flagship brand: Don Pepin Garcia. That brand now has three ranges of varying strengths/flavor profiles: the Blue Label, the Serie JJ (white label, which was developed together with his son Jaime) and the newly released Black Label (Cuban Classic). This seems to me to be about what you are advocating. You see his work for others as 'partnering' whereas I see it as simply work-for-hire. And building name recognition. I would not be at all surprised to see in the years ahead that blending work for others begins to taper off as he builds up his own, personal brands (primarily DPG).

The fact is, we can sling a lot of ink (or transmit a lot of electrons) kicking this around, but neither you nor I know what is going on inside the good Don's mind, and all of this blather we've been throwing out is nothing but speculation. But it is fun nonetheless, as long as we bear in mind that we really do not have a definitive answer.

My throat is dry. How about a beer?

Cheers!
:cb


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## Glacierman (Nov 16, 2006)

donp said:


> ... I also think that the smokes he makes for other people are a perfect alignment in terms of his reputation and his expertise. In short, I will probably always buy products made by Pepin Garcia.


BINGO!!! That is exactly what Pepin is up to and what that equates to is this: NAME RECOGNITION.

Further, you were brief and to the point where I was rather windy.

You get a kewpie doll.


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## Coffee Grounds (Feb 14, 2007)

Marketing 101 is nothing more than academic. Academic and reality are two very different things. Talking about annalizing market condition is all good and all but I doubt these small companies are doing that. Maybe Cigar General is.

Rocky Patel has only 7 employees. I would say the VP is also the Director of marketing and Director of Sales & so on.

I think this cigar industry is very simple. It goes to the old saying "KISS"
Keep it Simple Stupid! 

I think that this Troya clasico is nothing more than a branding by the Don Pepin line. They are either getting a % of sales or an up front Chunk.

Maybe they did hire Don Pepin to create a cigar for them.


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## Glacierman (Nov 16, 2006)

Coffee Grounds said:


> Marketing 101 is nothing more than academic. Academic and reality are two very different things. Talking about annalizing market condition is all good and all but I doubt these small companies are doing that. Maybe Cigar General is.


That about sums it up. The only small (=boutique) brand/company that might be doing some kind of market research could be Padilla, due to Ernesto's background in marketing.



Coffee Grounds said:


> ... I think that this Troya clasico is nothing more than a branding by the Don Pepin line. They are either getting a % of sales or an up front Chunk.
> 
> Maybe they did hire Don Pepin to create a cigar for them.


In this case, Pepin approached Troya with the suggestion of re-introducing the Troya Clasico as a Nicaraguan puro. This information was given me by Tom Irwin, Marketing Manager for Troya. Pepin then developed the blend and the cigars are made in his factory in Nicaragua, Tabacalera Cubana, as is noted in the press release I posted previously.

So this is not a mere "branding." This is business as usual for Don Pepin. He makes money by making cigars for other people. He has two factories for that purpose. But he also makes money by making and selling his own product. Common enough practice, not only in the tobacco industry, but in industry in general.

And with that, I put this one to rest as far as I am concerned.

Cheers to all.
:cb


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## montecristo#2 (May 29, 2006)

Wow, I never would have thought the comment I made in post #9 would have started such a debate. Although, I do like the conversation, it is very interesting to see the different sides. As long as no one takes it personal, this is a good discussion. If I get some time, I will add some comments as well.


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## Coffee Grounds (Feb 14, 2007)

I hope no one is taking anything personal.

:tu


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## Glacierman (Nov 16, 2006)

Coffee Grounds said:


> I hope no one is taking anything personal.
> 
> :tu


Not I!


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## RapidTransit (Oct 7, 2006)

Everyone does it, Padron does it. (I really hope Swisher don't buy them hint hint at what they make)

It's hard to keep track of who's makin what for whom and who owns what. Japan Tobacco made a bid on Imperial, Imperial made a bid for Altadis if only they bought General from the Swedes. Confusing? So is trying to figure who makes what.

Pepin is just trying to make it in the market. Although his Black label is selling 5:1 against Macanudo here. Often times 3rd party manufacturing can cost alot which dosn't make sense. But I encounter people that don't know he has his own line of cigars. When they do they see the price is cheaper so that makes the cigar taste better


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## Boston_Dude05 (Oct 10, 2006)

Coffee Grounds said:


> Marketing 101 is nothing more than academic. Academic and reality are two very different things. Talking about annalizing market condition is all good and all but I doubt these small companies are doing that. Maybe Cigar General is.
> 
> Rocky Patel has only 7 employees. I would say the VP is also the Director of marketing and Director of Sales & so on.
> 
> ...


I agree with your statement that the cigar industry is very simple and I am quite surprised a big player like Rocky Patel has only 7 employees. I also agree that their strategy is the KISS one as you mentioned above. However, this historically is not the way to build a very large business.

Sophistication in marketing is required. As a historical note, the industrial revolution, which started in England had multiple phases. Most think of it as a set of technological breakthroughs such as via the steam engine, the power loom and machines with interchangeable parts. These contributed to the "supply side" of the 1st industrial revolution. Complementing that was an equally powerful demand side as well based on, surprise, innovations in marketing. Back then in the 18th century, similar to today, consumers had to be convinced they needed products. One good example back then was Josiah Wedgewood's pottery works. He was basically the most dedicated and one of the most successful potters in Europe (analogy is similar to Don Pepin). The long and short of this, and it is nothing sort of fascinating, is that Wedgewood managed to create demand from consumers and establish significant brand equity in the marketplace. This is fact helped propel him ahead of similar companies selling like goods. The cigar industry is similar in that there are many manufacturers selling like goods. What Wedgewood did was create and sustain customer loyalty and thus build his brand. This was also the advent of brand marketing, which has been employed very successful by the likes of P&G. In fact, the Wedgewood brand, after 230 years later, still stands as a huge asset. Other great companies, such as Coca-cola, Shell, Disney, Sony, Microsoft, Partagas are also good examples.

This gets back to the question on hand. How can Don Pepin create brand equity if no one can remember all his cigars as he is spread too thin? I'm a huge fan of his smokes but I don't remember all of them. What kind of brand is that? There are many enthusiasts on these boards who keep track of all these, but there are also many casual cigar smokers and when they walk into a shop, sometimes a Troya well is just a Troya and not even a Don Pepin. They would not ask for a Troya or a Hirsch Y Garcia and maybe go just go after, well, the one that has a huge brand.

Cheers and fire one up :ss


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## Boston_Dude05 (Oct 10, 2006)

RapidTransit said:


> But I encounter people that don't know he has his own line of cigars.


This is a good example of why Pepin should be focused on building his own brand equity in one line initially. C'mon we all know Pepin smokes are better than Macunudos! Macs have created a strong brand in the consumers mind. There is also a B&M near me and I asked the owner what the top selling brand was. He mentioned...Macunudo?!! I was a little surprised at first, but it's all marketing and building brand equity in the end.


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## Glacierman (Nov 16, 2006)

Boston_Dude05 said:


> This gets back to the question on hand. How can Don Pepin create brand equity if no one can remember all his cigars as he is spread too thin? I'm a huge fan of his smokes but I don't remember all of them. What kind of brand is that? There are many enthusiasts on these boards who keep track of all these, but there are also many casual cigar smokers and when they walk into a shop, sometimes a Troya well is just a Troya and not even a Don Pepin. They would not ask for a Troya or a Hirsch Y Garcia and maybe go just go after, well, the one that has a huge brand.
> 
> Cheers and fire one up :ss


I'm about to make that task a little bit harder: I just found out about (& added to Wiki) another stick that is at least manufactured by Pepin: the Cigar.com Corojo Label!

While I don't necessarily agree with all that you have said, I would say that perhaps Pepin needs to decide whether he wants to be a blender/manufacturer or a brand owner. Trying to do both at this stage of the game certainly does complicate matters.

Let's have a beer!

:cb


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## Coffee Grounds (Feb 14, 2007)

Boston_Dude05 said:


> I agree with your statement that the cigar industry is very simple and I am quite surprised a big player like Rocky Patel has only 7 employees. I also agree that their strategy is the KISS one as you mentioned above. However, this historically is not the way to build a very large business.
> 
> Sophistication in marketing is required. As a historical note, the industrial revolution, which started in England had multiple phases. Most think of it as a set of technological breakthroughs such as via the steam engine, the power loom and machines with interchangeable parts. These contributed to the "supply side" of the 1st industrial revolution. Complementing that was an equally powerful demand side as well based on, surprise, innovations in marketing. Back then in the 18th century, similar to today, consumers had to be convinced they needed products. One good example back then was Josiah Wedgewood's pottery works. He was basically the most dedicated and one of the most successful potters in Europe (analogy is similar to Don Pepin). The long and short of this, and it is nothing sort of fascinating, is that Wedgewood managed to create demand from consumers and establish significant brand equity in the marketplace. This is fact helped propel him ahead of similar companies selling like goods. The cigar industry is similar in that there are many manufacturers selling like goods. What Wedgewood did was create and sustain customer loyalty and thus build his brand. This was also the advent of brand marketing, which has been employed very successful by the likes of P&G. In fact, the Wedgewood brand, after 230 years later, still stands as a huge asset. Other great companies, such as Coca-cola, Shell, Disney, Sony, Microsoft, Partagas are also good examples.
> 
> ...


I enjoy reading your posts.
You must be some type of Professor of history/economics?

I am going to dis agree with you on one of your points. I do not think you can compare Partagas to Fortune 100 companies. I think Partagas is owned by General Cigar. Do you know if they are publicly traded in the US?
I know General Cigar is doing some sales but I would be surpised if they were selling over $200 million a year.

Now I do agree with you about the Don Pepin line making cigars for their competition makes no sense to me.

I have read a lot about the cigar industry to make me almost dangerous.:dr 
These guys making these cigars are not big business minds. I would almost consider them to be more on the artist side. They might be able to make an awesome product but might not have the education to build on all aspects of a company.

Who knows we need feed back from someone that has worked in the industry.


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## salimoneus (Feb 13, 2007)

how can people bust on pepin, i mean really, if you're a fan of his work, then you should be happy there are so many different smokes of his that you can give a try. that's like whining that your favorite rock group releases too many good songs (of course that's not really possible anymore as most of today's music sucks anyway) :ss


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## donp (Mar 5, 2006)

Coffee Grounds said:


> Interesting debate
> 
> I know a little about branding rights if that is what is going on.
> 
> ...


IMO...BINGO! It is all about the money, and I can't say I blame him, it is business after all. If it enhances his reputation and insures cash flow for him and his employees, then I wish him well; as long as he continues to produce excellent cigars I will continue to buy them. He has only been in this country since 2002, and is taking full advantage of the american way and free enterprise to which he obviously subscribes. He has started his own factory; had success; bought and built another larger factory; got more clients to pay the bills on his larger factory; seems to be improving his customer base for his factories; and I am sure he has plans for the future growth of his business. Not a bad approach IMO.


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## Boston_Dude05 (Oct 10, 2006)

Glacierman said:


> I'm about to make that task a little bit harder: I just found out about (& added to Wiki) another stick that is at least manufactured by Pepin: the Cigar.com Corojo Label!
> 
> While I don't necessarily agree with all that you have said, I would say that perhaps Pepin needs to decide whether he wants to be a blender/manufacturer or a brand owner. Trying to do both at this stage of the game certainly does complicate matters.
> 
> ...


Yes, I think that will be the critical decision for him whether to be a blender or manufacturer. Both are quite different. Ambivalent feelings about the Cigar.com house blend, meaning I love Pepin smokes, but am not chopping at the bit to try those yet (new brand means more risk to me). Thanks for keeping track of all of them though :w


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## Boston_Dude05 (Oct 10, 2006)

salimoneus said:


> how can people bust on pepin, i mean really, if you're a fan of his work, then you should be happy there are so many different smokes of his that you can give a try. that's like whining that your favorite rock group releases too many good songs (of course that's not really possible anymore as most of today's music sucks anyway) :ss


Quite the contrary. I'm a huge Pepin fan and have boxes of his smokes. Just wanted to see Pepin succeed in the best way possible so we can enjoy even more :ss

On the rock band analogy, it's more analogous to seeing a lead singer sing for many groups, which would not work. They all release good songs to your point, BUT under the name brand of that one group. What if Mick Jagger sang for a bunch of different groups? The Stones would have never gotten that huge then...


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## NCRadioMan (Feb 28, 2005)

Screw marketing, the man is making money with quality products. That's the bottom line. And why can't he be both a blender and manufacturer? Worked so far. Like somebody mentioned, he is not the only one that does it. That is, making cigars for other companies. Like how Torano and Perdomo make CAO's.



> This gets back to the question on hand. How can Don Pepin create brand equity if no one can remember all his cigars as he is spread too thin?


It's the tobacconist's job to inform and educate thier customers.  If you don't have a good tobacconist, information about all of his cigars is still readily available. I think it's a concept that the consumer should do thier own research rather than relying on other people. It's a lost art.

I smoked a Clasico today, the robusto. Needed more rest and I didn't care for the large rg(54).


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## Boston_Dude05 (Oct 10, 2006)

Coffee Grounds said:


> I enjoy reading your posts.
> You must be some type of Professor of history/economics?
> 
> I am going to dis agree with you on one of your points. I do not think you can compare Partagas to Fortune 100 companies. I think Partagas is owned by General Cigar. Do you know if they are publicly traded in the US?
> ...


I put Partagas in there just for the heck of it, but it is no Fortune 100 company to your point. The rest of your post is valid with good points. This is a boutique industry, with mostly "artists" selling their arts. Building a big company requires more still. In the meantime let's go enjoy some of the artwork! :ss


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## FrankSantos (Jan 8, 2007)

Whenever the debate about a cigar factory producing so many different blends comes up, especially a small factory, I refer to this interview of Orlando Padron from Cigar Aficionado -

http://www.cigaraficionado.com/Cigar/CA_Profiles/Cigar_Stars_Profile/0,2547,219,00.html

Q: Isn't the trend nowadays for tobacco companies to launch new products and new brands all the time?
A: Exactly, and saturate the store shelves. We buy raw material for what we are doing, for four, five or six years. What other factories do is they launch new brands every year. Just think of one factory that has 20 brands. How many sizes will it have for each brand? I will say it's a lie to anybody that tells me that they can make more than three blends in one factory. Not even a fortune-teller could invent so many different brands. The client pays for this.

Q: But why is it so difficult to make lots of different brands in one factory?
A: The problem is that you have to have enough raw materials to maintain the blend. That's the most important thing.

Q: This is the problem now in Cuba, right? There are factories making 10, 15 brands? There are also brands that are manufactured in several factories. Isn't that very difficult?
A: Each factory should produce a maximum of four brands each. To have a factory produce more than four brands would turn it into a factoría, a place that produces dresses, shirts, clothes. The difference between a factory and a factoría is that a factory has to guarantee the raw material to maintain a stable blend. A clothes factoría needs to promote its merchandise and keep up to date with fashion trends. They are totally different, one from the other. Just imagine, a factory that makes 1 million cigars will need, for each brand, a minimum of 450 quintales [22.8 short tons] of tobacco.

Q: Is that for a year?
A: Forget about the time, we're saying for the production of 1 million cigars. Imagine, just multiply 30 million cigars by 450 to know how many quintales must be in stock!

Q: Is that why Padrón never makes more than one brand?
A: Exactly. It's very important to be serious and professional in this business. Seriousness means that when a client smokes a cigar it should always smoke the same, taste the same, and have the same qualities. When a factory produces many different brands, it will have to be changing the blends all the time. Sometimes factories will have perfect blends but other times not.


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## sonick (Jan 30, 2007)

NCRadioMan said:


> Screw marketing, the man is making money with quality products. That's the bottom line. And why can't he be both a blender and manufacturer? Worked so far.


Hear! Hear! 
Needed to be said, and I couldn't agree more. 
He obviously is interested in maximizing personal profit, not in cultivating a fledgling enterprise. More power to him, he's doing everything right insofar as growing his net worth is concerned.


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## Boston_Dude05 (Oct 10, 2006)

sonick said:


> Hear! Hear!
> Needed to be said, and I couldn't agree more.
> He obviously is interested in maximizing personal profit, not in cultivating a fledgling enterprise. More power to him, he's doing everything right insofar as growing his net worth is concerned.


I guess you didn't read FrankSantos' post, the interview with Padron?


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## gvarsity (Dec 12, 2006)

The thing is people don't necessarily complain about yet another Andy North golf course or another Picasso. Now some people prefer one particular one over the other doesn't mean they are not both quality. The reality is there are thousands of cigars and if Don Pepin has 60 that really isn't that many. I'm sure for many of them he is working with different farms tobacco crops, different price points, different flavor requests from the companies for whom he is creating blends. Sure there are some Pepin signature elements to most things he blends but that is what they are paying him for. I am sure all of his blends are good for what they ask him to do. What we don't know is what his parameters were. A company could ask him to blend a 5$ cigar and then try to cash in on the current popularity and try to sell it at as a Pepin for 20$. The savvy consumer is going to be disappointed but the guy who just wants to say he is smoking a 20$ Pepin is buying it by the box.

Although I like the Padron approach and love their cigars not everyone can or should do it that way. Maybe Pepin could do that but then all his eggs are in one basket. I'm also sure he has contracts to maintain all of the blends he has created so far.


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## ahova1906 (Mar 4, 2007)

Boston_Dude05 said:


> Although I can see how one can argue for this, I must disagree with Don Pepin's business strategy. Marketing 101 states that in order to be successful one must align the right products with the right products, prices, etc.. If we assume that Don Pepin's name is his brand (which it is as everyone keeps track of what types of cigars he makes, which range from brands as disparate as Top Shelf, Legends to super premiums like Padilla, Tatuajes etc.), then he has violated this basic marketing principle. It's simply not possible to be everything to everyone. Just looking at all his brands, how would you describe them? That is exactly the problem as the end consumer does not know how to associate the Pepin name. Does he make economy smokes, middle priced or luxury segment smokes or other? So in such confusion, the marketing message becomes quite blurred. The luxury segment smoker may not smoke Pepins anymore since they are associated all across the board. Similarly, the budget minded smoker may feel the economy sticks are even overpriced. This hurts profits at the company, not maximize them.
> 
> So how to fix this? I think a more careful marketing analysis of the types of consumers out there in terms of what segments exist and then tailoring cigars to these segments would work. So he can have more than 1 line of cigars, but they would be carefully thought out in terms of demographics and the target market. With such an analysis, he would probably find that he would not need the 10+ lines on the market, but perhaps just 3-4 to achieve a much greater effect, which in terms of business is sales. Having a different smoke doesn't mean it needs to be a different brand to be effective. Let's take cars for example. One can choose from a V6, V8, different colors, trims, options, yet they are all the same make. The same can be achieved in cigars. Shooting from the hip, I would say, perhaps 1 super premium line, 1 medium and 1 economy and focus promotion on these three. Right now it's difficult to promote across 10+ brands. What message would you have for each brand? And promoting 10 lines costs much more marketing dollars. I would recommend Don Pepin to keep his name on all cigars to build his own brand, but have brand extensions to reach different segments in the market. I mean Don Pepin is such a force, why partner with others and dilute his name? He should be building the next Cohiba or Montecristo. Trying to think of ways to help Pepin maximize his profits so we can enjoy more cigars :ss


very interesting point 
But pepin whores world wide spread his marketing message for free, He has his labels and his blends are researched by pepin whores world wide "word of mouth marketing is great"


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## Boston_Dude05 (Oct 10, 2006)

gvarsity said:


> The thing is people don't necessarily complain about yet another Andy North golf course or another Picasso. Now some people prefer one particular one over the other doesn't mean they are not both quality. The reality is there are thousands of cigars and if Don Pepin has 60 that really isn't that many. I'm sure for many of them he is working with different farms tobacco crops, different price points, different flavor requests from the companies for whom he is creating blends. Sure there are some Pepin signature elements to most things he blends but that is what they are paying him for. I am sure all of his blends are good for what they ask him to do. What we don't know is what his parameters were. A company could ask him to blend a 5$ cigar and then try to cash in on the current popularity and try to sell it at as a Pepin for 20$. The savvy consumer is going to be disappointed but the guy who just wants to say he is smoking a 20$ Pepin is buying it by the box.
> 
> Although I like the Padron approach and love their cigars not everyone can or should do it that way. Maybe Pepin could do that but then all his eggs are in one basket. I'm also sure he has contracts to maintain all of the blends he has created so far.


Well basically not complaining there are many Pepin smokes, but my argument is that for business, spreading yourself everywhere doesn't make sense primarily from a building a brand standpoint and also from a business perspective. The golf course and artwork analogies while interesting aren't relevant for the cigar business. When Padron mentions that each factory making 1 million sticks requires 450 quintales, he's actually saying that from a business perspective it doesn't make sense. And the reason for that is a concept in business called "working capital". This is the amount of capital that a firm requires to operate to build products and maintain inventory. In short, the more lines you make from a factory, the more raw material and inventory the firm must have on hand, making it more expensive to operate the firm. Golf courses and art work are different since there is no inventory required on hand for a golf course, since it is always ready. For example, the golf course is always on hand to meet consumer demand. And for artwork, it's the same. Picasso paints only 1 of each type, thus there is no inventory. So when Padron mentions 30 million cigars multiplied by 450 quintales, that's a lot of raw material to keep on hand, which costs the company money. The company needs to buy all the raw material, put it in a warehouse, and then also manage the stock. And, to Padron's ultimate point, it's also tougher to maintain quality in such a case over the long run. :ss


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## timrenzi573 (Dec 4, 2006)

Just wanted to let everyone know, the folks at famous + tinderbox both replied to me positively when I asked them about breaking a box of these down to sell me singles. So here you go Pepin whores, go get em.

http://www.famous-smoke.com/cigars/include/Create-A-Sampler.cfm

Woman from famous said they should be listed in the create-a-sampler there, don't see them yet but they should be up at some point.

http://www.tinderbox.com/Troya-Clasico-XVIII?sc=2&category=12582

Tinderbox should have a couple 5-packs of the robustos (they sold me one earlier today.)


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## auradefect (Apr 11, 2007)

I'll have to pick these up, especially after trying Pepin Garcia Black. :dr


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## Mr. White (Dec 4, 2004)

montecristo#2 said:


> So these will be cigars #13,547,988 - 13,547,991 blended by Pepin.  :r :r
> 
> Seriously, he must blend cigars in his sleep.


:tpd: I think someone needs to sit down with Mr. Garcia and explain to him about Market Saturation. hehe.



Glacierman said:


> This seems to be the general consensus among the critics, but I think it is off-kilter.
> 
> We must understand that Pepin is three things: a cigar manufacturer (with two factories), a blending consultant AND a cigar brand owner (the Don Pepin Blue, JJ, and Black).


My issue is that his name is thrown around so much, it really DOES get confusing. I also think that from a purely business standpoint that he is losing gobs of money by letting his name be used so much for the marketing of all of these cigars, I really hope he's being paid well because IMO it would be much better to use his name on his OWN brand of cigars. His blends are honestly good enough to take over the top-spot in the NC world, but their doesn't appear to be any market strategy going on here to help facilitate that. [/quote]



> As a consultant, people hire him to blend a cigar for them (function 2) and usually to make it as well (function 1). Such a cigar is not his, it is his client's. They came to him, seeking to benefit from his expertise. They could have gone to Oliva or Plasencia, but they chose to go to Garcia. [There is only one instance of which I am aware wherein Pepin approached the brand owner with a suggestion for a new line, and that is with Lignum-2 and the Troya Classico.


Yes, he's a big name in the cigar industry, that is why they go to him. And if I had to bet I would say that he keeps doing it because he absolutely loves his work, but business wise he's gone beyond the point of doing more good than harm by having his name plastered everywhere we turn. I'm not knocking the guy, I think he just needs someone smart to reign in that enthusiasm a little bit so that #1: He doesn't burn out, #2: He doesn't hurt his own brand.

Right now his own brand of cigars are getting lost in the bunch, IMO.



> To refer to the client bands as "Pepins cigars" is disingenuous at best, outright misleading at the worst. To suggest "he should really stop making all of these different lines before he starts to make inferior products just because someone asked him to" is missing the point completely. He is a CONSULTANT/MANUFACTURER. He makes things for CLIENTS who wish to make use of his skills and facilities.


That's the thing, he should be making things for himself, and be really choosy about his clients. No offense to anyone, but he's making blends for such retail outlets as Cigar King, IMO that short of cheapens this man's prestige.



> For example, Tatuaje is not Pepin Garcia's brand. He developed the blends and makes the cigars for Tatuaje Cigars, Inc., owned by Pete Johnson, who hired Pepin to aid in developing the blends (Pete knew what he wanted, Pepin made it happen) and to manufacture them.
> 
> Fuente was mentioned as a possible comparison. Whether or not the Fuente lines are too many and varied is beyond the scope of this post. But in addition to their own large line of cigars, they also make many brands for others, such as Diana Silvius, Sosa (one line), Holt's, Ashton, J. C. Newman (several brands), etc., etc., because Fuente is also a MANUFACTURER and CONSULTANT as well as a brand owner.


Fuente is an excellent example here. At first glance, both Fuente and Pepin are doing a lot of the same things. Except when you take a closer look at the cigars. Opus X, Hemingway, etc. These are cigars that have been marketed to the hilt. Their flagship line (Opus X) has it all right down to the big-flashy band, the limited availability, the unique flavor profile, etc. Hemingway's have a rather generic band, but they have an extremely unique shape all their own to differentiate themselves from the rest of the crowd. This is good branding and marketing at work, and has helped to boost both of these cigar lines to the top of the list when it comes to NC's.

The same can be said of the Cuban Cohiba. For years it was a cigar that could NOT be had by anyone but Castro and his friends. Right here, this is powerful marketing at work. Who doesn't want to smoke the cigar that Fidel Castro smoked almost exclusively? Look at the Cohiba band, will anyone argue that this band is not totally and 100% unique in the Cuban cigar industry?

Meanwhile Pepin's own brand of cigar suffers. The difference between the two is marketing. Plain and simple. I think Mr. Garcia is a true BOTL, but I also think that it is going to hurt him in the long run.



> I am of the opinion that all this hub-bub over Pepin is utterly misplaced. For one, I am not a master blender and am in no position to judge whether he repeats himself or just slaps a new client band on an existing blend or not, and any such speculation on my part would be, I think, presumptuous.


I have by no means tried all of the Pepin blends available today. But I can say as a cigar smoker that of the ones I have tried (very limited. Blue, Black, Tatuaje.) each blend is similar but still manages to be different.



> In all honesty, I wonder if the real reason for this great concern over Pepin is not three-fold: [1] he is a relative new-comer and [2] he has created & made some fantastic sticks so far and [3] we worry that this is in jeopardy. The rest of it is naught but our seeking to justify our worry.
> 
> One thing you can be certain of, however: no matter what happens with client brands, you can bet your booty that he will not allow his OWN brands to suffer.


I think his own brands already suffer. Not in the blend or quality of the cigar, but in the marketing side of things. Which as we all know is a VERY powerful tool. Marketing can make or break a product. Like I said, I think someone needs to sit down with Mr. Garcia and have a good long talk about how marketing can work for him, and how having his name attached to every retailer's house cigar might work against him.


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## doctorcue (Apr 19, 2006)

I had one at the B&M last Saturday. Tasty smoke. More leather than spice. Not as full bodied as a DP Blue or Tatuaje Brown. Good smoke.

I'll stay on the sidelines of the Pepin discussion. :w


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## timrenzi573 (Dec 4, 2006)

Mr. White said:


> That's the thing, he should be making things for himself, and be really choosy about his clients. No offense to anyone, but he's making blends for such retail outlets as Cigar King, IMO that short of cheapens this man's prestige.


I actually think that Cigar King is one of his older clients, and he has been making those smokes for a while now. It would be kindof shitty to ditch someone who helped bring you up just because you're too 'prestigious' now to continue working with them. Besides, from a value/diversity standpoint, the brands he makes for Cigar King are some of his best  (Smoking a Sancti Spiritus right now)

I do agree that letting all these companies scream his name with these smokes is probably not the best thing for him, marketing wise, but it is what it is. They're excited to be in with the next Hot Thing, and he's excited to make more money + cigars. I think his production is still not all that huge, which is good, and I trust that the guy knows how to blend a ton of different cigars since he was doing that for years in Cuba.

Honestly, some of it is our (the online cigar community) fault too, let's be completely honest. If it wasn't for people keeping track of every move he makes and posting about it, nobody except Cigar Merchants regular customers would know about the Trahan Reserva. (Insert most of these b&m's he makes smokes for here.) It's our fault that people from Boston to LA call a store in Georgia asking for 5 packs of the things.


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## IrishCorona (Mar 7, 2007)

It's all about the Benjamins but not every sucessfull buisness man and woman on the planet is a greedy whore.

I don't care who's name is on what for who but I could go into an entire diseration about *What's in a name" and how worthless so many trusted brands are today that are sold to companies who build inferior crap sold on the ole trusted brandname. 

I've only had 2 Pepin Zgars, the Miami 8&11 Robusto...nice but not nice enough for me to spend 10+ a stick. I really wanna try the Brown Label but they're stupid expensive. I love great cigars and freaking great cigars. If they're freaking expensive they better be freaking great. :ss


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