# Full on convert



## egoo33 (Jul 21, 2013)

well with the recent hustle bustle here I started smoking my habanos more than ever and i can honestly say that I am all in with the darkside. the flavor profile the value and the sheer enjoyment is something i haven't had since i got into cigars, hopefully down the line i will be one of the fogs


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## Breezy818 (Oct 1, 2012)

This sums up my feelings about 3 yrs ago. I haven't looked back!!!

Congrats!!!

Dan


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## egoo33 (Jul 21, 2013)

I knew it was official when I switched out my NC humidor and filled it with Habanos

A moment for my NC Friends


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

Welcome to the darkside.


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## MDSPHOTO (Sep 10, 2013)

Damn, we've lost another one!


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## Lrbergin (Jun 14, 2012)

I love Habanos as much as the next guy, but I just can't see myself smoking nothing but Cubans. I agree that dollar for dollar Habanos are the best deal going, but variety is the spice of life. Sometimes I just want something else. An aged Opus or a nice Padron Anny really hits the spot sometimes.


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## magoo6541 (Mar 9, 2014)

That's sums it up pretty good!


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## Tritones (Jun 23, 2010)

To each his own. I love Cuban cigars. I also love a good maduro, especially Brazilian, and I love Indonesian Sumatras. Add to that my emotional attachment to some of Fuente's cigars, and I have a few things to enjoy from places other than that ISOM.


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## JustinThyme (Jun 17, 2013)

Lrbergin said:


> I love Habanos as much as the next guy, but I just can't see myself smoking nothing but Cubans. I agree that dollar for dollar Habanos are the best deal going, but variety is the spice of life. Sometimes I just want something else. An aged Opus or a nice Padron Anny really hits the spot sometimes.


Same here. While Ive found every habano Ive tried to be a nice smoke (cant say the same for all the NC sticks) Ill never give up the NCs that I do enjoy. This morning I had a nice Boli PC and right now Im burning a nice OpusX power ranger.


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## egoo33 (Jul 21, 2013)

After trying every recent release of Mexican San Andres wrappers nothing clicked for me, then most of my smokes weren't doing it for me. Then after having four or five Habanos in a wekk everything fell into place. I understand that variety is the spice of life but for me that variety will be found in different marcas and vitolas in the Habanos SA Catalog


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

egoo33 said:


> After trying every recent release of Mexican San Andres wrappers nothing clicked for me, then most of my smokes weren't doing it for me. Then after having four or five Habanos in a wekk everything fell into place. I understand that variety is the spice of life but for me that variety will be found in different marcas and vitolas in the Habanos SA Catalog


I hear ya my brother and must Concur fully!


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## egoo33 (Jul 21, 2013)

TonyBrooklyn said:


> I hear ya my brother and must Concur fully!


my kinda guy :smoke:


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## euro (Aug 2, 2015)

This topic actually made me think about something funny. I never smoked a non-Cuban cigar since the day I began smoking cigars because they are legal here and a local Casa Del Habano has a enormous walk-in humidor with a wide range of Cuban cigar brands. But it's the non Cuban cigars which pulling my attention for some reason.


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## ORMason (Nov 4, 2012)

I started smoking cc's about 2 years ago and haven't bought an nc since. My collection is now 75% cc and growing. I'm gifting the nc's to anyone who wants to smoke. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## concig (Mar 25, 2013)

euro said:


> This topic actually made me think about something funny. I never smoked a non-Cuban cigar since the day I began smoking cigars because they are legal here and a local Casa Del Habano has a enormous walk-in humidor with a wide range of Cuban cigar brands. But it's the non Cuban cigars which pulling my attention for some reason.


Τhis is logical when you live in a country where CC's are available.I feel the same here where I live,and cannot find all NC's I'd like to try.I can't find for example Padrons that I like very much 
I can usually find rocky patel,joya de nicaragua and others,but not many others I like and would buy if I could find easily.


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## euro (Aug 2, 2015)

concig said:


> Τhis is logical when you live in a country where CC's are available.I feel the same here where I live,and cannot find all NC's I'd like to try.I can't find for example Padrons that I like very much
> I can usually find rocky patel,joya de nicaragua and others,but not many others I like and would buy if I could find easily.


This is true. I can relate to this. In my city there are a couple of cigar shops. Most of them sell Dutch machine made cigars. I have never tried them before but I will try them out once as they are so cheap. There are three other cigar shops who sell Cuban cigars, I have visited them but the one that has a wide selection of Cubans is a local Casa Del Habano. But thats it really, they sell only Cubans. If I want to buy a non Cuban cigar I have to order them from the internet. But from the good side, non Cubans are cheaper compared to Cubans


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## Seamus55418 (Jan 23, 2015)

I picked up the cigar hobby while travelling where CC's where legal. Ever since then the CC world has made sense to me but NC's are a mystery. Maybe a quarter of what I smoke are NC's but it's kind of like buying lottery tickets. A small gamble you expect to lose. Sometimes there is a surprise. CC's on the other hand are consistently a good value if one shops judiciously. My tupperdors are currently about 85% CC.


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## Bird-Dog (Oct 16, 2009)

euro said:


> This is true. I can relate to this. In my city there are a couple of cigar shops. Most of them sell Dutch machine made cigars. I have never tried them before but I will try them out once as they are so cheap. There are three other cigar shops who sell Cuban cigars, I have visited them but the one that has a wide selection of Cubans is a local Casa Del Habano. But thats it really, they sell only Cubans. If I want to buy a non Cuban cigar I have to order them from the internet. *But from the good side, non Cubans are cheaper compared to Cubans*


Oh, what a can-of-worms that last statement opens. I feel exactly the opposite about it.

There's quite a range of prices for both. If we're comparing similarly priced cigars, the CC's invariably come out on top for me... and by a wide margin. When I look at it the other way around, in terms of what I would consider most similar in quality, the NC is almost always higher priced... usually much, much higher.

Maybe things are different in Europe with an open market.


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## concig (Mar 25, 2013)

NC cigars, are good value mainly in the USA.In europe they are not so cheap,especially those which in the USA are really cheap (2-5 $)
Expensive NC's (in the USA) are usually well priced in europe too.I wish I could buy say Padron Londres at the price it has in the US.That makes CC's in europe good value,for those of course who prefer CC's.


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## StogieNinja (Jul 29, 2009)

Seamus55418 said:


> I picked up the cigar hobby while travelling where CC's where legal. Ever since then the CC world has made sense to me but NC's are a mystery. Maybe a quarter of what I smoke are NC's but it's kind of like buying lottery tickets. A small gamble you expect to lose. Sometimes there is a surprise. CC's on the other hand are consistently a good value if one shops judiciously. My tupperdors are currently about 85% CC.


Cubans all have different profiles, but most are unmistakably Cuban. Compare that to the rest of the world, and it hardly seems fair to compare the consistency of getting cigars made from leaves entirely grown on one small island vs all the cigars made from leaves grown all over the world.

Also, there's a qualifier there: "if one shops judiciously." If one shops judiciously, NCs can be pretty reliable as well.

I'm a CC fan as well, probably 75% of my stash is CC, but I rarely have an NC I dislike anymore, as most of what I smoke comes from blenders or brands I've come to know and trust... similar to how there are blends in the CC world I've come to know and trust.


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## euro (Aug 2, 2015)

curmudgeonista said:


> Oh, what a can-of-worms that last statement opens. I feel exactly the opposite about it.
> 
> There's quite a range of prices for both. If we're comparing similarly priced cigars, the CC's invariably come out on top for me... and by a wide margin. When I look at it the other way around, in terms of what I would consider most similar in quality, the NC is almost always higher priced... usually much, much higher.
> 
> Maybe things are different in Europe with an open market.


Thats because in the USA they are illegal and when people buy them from well you know, they don't pay tax for them. If they would pay tax for the CC's they would cost much more than they are now. But mark my words as soon as the US government lifts the Cuba embargo you're going to pay way more for a box of CC's. That's the case here in Holland, everything is so expensive and they keep raising up the taxes. Lets say in some countries you could get a box of Montecristo No. 2 for almost 230 euros. While here I would have to pay 280-300 euros for exact the same product. So that 70 euros is just for tax. I believe many US cigar smokers will experience the same if the US government lifts the Cuba embargo, I think it's better if they don't lift it so you guys don't have to pay that much money for enjoyment.

As for the non Cuban Cigars I would purchase them locally and pay the tax but for the Cubans I would buy them somewhere "cheaper". There isn't even one single shop here that's going to give you a discount on any tobacco product, I asked a shop owner once about this he told me that they simply can't hand out discounts because the government decides the prices. And they who sell them nearly make any profit at all. He told me with every pack of cigs he sells he makes 10 cents profit (while a pack of Marlboro cigs costs almost 7 euros!).

Beside if they are going to lift the embargo I bet the prices of CC's will increase because the demand for them is very high and there isn't enough tobacco.


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## Bird-Dog (Oct 16, 2009)

euro said:


> Thats because in the USA they are illegal and when people buy them from well you know, they don't pay tax for them. If they would pay tax for the CC's they would cost much more than they are now. But mark my words as soon as the US government lifts the Cuba embargo you're going to pay way more for a box of CC's. That's the case here in Holland, everything is so expensive and they keep raising up the taxes. Lets say in some countries you could get a box of Montecristo No. 2 for almost 230 euros. While here I would have to pay 280-300 euros for exact the same product. So that 70 euros is just for tax. I believe many US cigar smokers will experience the same if the US government lifts the Cuba embargo, I think it's better if they don't lift it so you guys don't have to pay that much money for enjoyment.
> 
> As for the non Cuban Cigars I would purchase them locally and pay the tax but for the Cubans I would buy them somewhere "cheaper". There isn't even one single shop here that's going to give you a discount on any tobacco product, I asked a shop owner once about this he told me that they simply can't hand out discounts because the government decides the prices. And they who sell them nearly make any profit at all. He told me with every pack of cigs he sells he makes 10 cents profit (while a pack of Marlboro cigs costs almost 7 euros!).
> 
> Beside if they are going to lift the embargo I bet the prices of CC's will increase because the demand for them is very high and there isn't enough tobacco.


I am aware of the effect of taxes on costs, but my opinion of the difference in the price:value equation of CC's to NC's far exceeds the tax in most places. Furthermore, different states in the US have different tax rates on cigars. A few have no additional tax on cigars aside from sales tax (cigarettes are an entirely different matter), and most online cigar vendors are based in low/no tax states. We do not pay in-state tobacco tax on mail-order. We pay according to the vendor's location and if they are shipping out-of-state we don't even pay sales tax. My comparisons are based on typical online vendor pricing. Therefore, tax has little or no effect on my assertions.

If I'm not mistaken, you are new to cigars and stated that you've never even smoked an NC yet. I find it odd that you profess to speak with authority on something you know nothing about. Read, listen and learn. At this point you are not in a position to try to teach.


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## Seamus55418 (Jan 23, 2015)

Aninjaforallseasons said:


> Cubans all have different profiles, but most are unmistakably Cuban. Compare that to the rest of the world, and it hardly seems fair to compare the consistency of getting cigars made from leaves entirely grown on one small island vs all the cigars made from leaves grown all over the world.


You are helping me make my point. Although I wasn't focused on consistency in respect to flavor, just consistency in providing value. The core of my comment is that I started with CC's and am happy there.  To reference back to the OP - I started on the dark side and like it here!

I'm sure you are right, with some focus I could learn to just as reliably stock my storage with NC's. For now NC's are more of an impulse buy thing for me. With legalization and taxation (to euro's point) that could change. Depends a lot on state sales tax. I don't imagine the VAT situation will change.


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## concig (Mar 25, 2013)

euro said:


> If they would pay tax for the CC's they would cost much more than they are now..


I'm not so sure about this.US importers will buy directly from Cuba so they will be able to have competitive retail prices,as it is done for example in europe and the CC vs NC cigar prices.


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## euro (Aug 2, 2015)

concig said:


> I'm not so sure about this.US importers will buy directly from Cuba so they will be able to have competitive retail prices,as it is done for example in europe and the CC vs NC cigar prices.





curmudgeonista said:


> I am aware of the effect of taxes on costs, but my *opinion of the difference in the price*:value equation of CC's to NC's far exceeds the tax in most places. Furthermore, different states in the US have different tax rates on cigars. A few have no additional tax on cigars aside from sales tax (cigarettes are an entirely different matter), and most online cigar vendors are based in low/no tax states. We do not pay in-state tobacco tax on mail-order. We pay according to the vendor's location and if they are shipping out-of-state we don't even pay sales tax. My comparisons are based on typical online vendor pricing. Therefore, tax has little or no effect on my assertions.
> 
> *If I'm not mistaken, you are new to cigars and stated that you've never even smoked an NC yet. I find it odd that you profess to speak with authority on something you know nothing about. Read, listen and learn. At this point you are not in a position to try to teach.*


Is that your argument? What does my smoking experience has to do with the knowledge about taxes? Nothing at all. It doesn't make sense at all what you have written. You simply try to deflect my argument by making a non-sense argument that is based on basically nothing.

Those vendors you buy from are in tax free zones, if customs intercept your delivery you still will have to pay the tax. So actually I do know what I'm talking about, I did read, listen and learn. It's not I'm trying to "teach" you something, you see this is the problem with a lot of people. They think they know everything but once they know they might be wrong, they will say that you are the one who knows nothing. I have been a martial arts instructor for a couple years and believe me I know everything about ignorance and how people won't able to develop themselves because of their ignorance. It doesn't matter if you are wrong, as long you learn something from it. I wouldn't mind if one of my students would correct me on something during the training because I want to become a better martial artist, this philosophy can be experienced in almost everything.

I'm just sharing my knowledge. Like it or hate it. We all can learn from each other age or experience doesn't matter. If you accept this in your life everything will be much easier. Go and watch the DrJoeShow on youtube. He did a great video about the embargo:






I totally agree with DrJoe on this subject. Just watch the video and think about it.


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## egoo33 (Jul 21, 2013)

i forgot about this thread but havent bought a nc since i created this thread with the exception of a few lounge sticks in the heart of winter but really dont see myself going back. dont mean to sound elitist but thats just where my palate is now


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## Bird-Dog (Oct 16, 2009)

euro said:


> Is that your argument? What does my smoking experience has to do with the knowledge about taxes? Nothing at all. It doesn't make sense at all what you have written. You simply try to deflect my argument by making a non-sense argument that is based on basically nothing.
> 
> Those vendors you buy from are in tax free zones, if customs intercept your delivery you still will have to pay the tax. So actually I do know what I'm talking about, I did read, listen and learn. It's not I'm trying to "teach" you something, you see this is the problem with a lot of people. They think they know everything but once they know they might be wrong, they will say that you are the one who knows nothing. I have been a martial arts instructor for a couple years and believe me I know everything about ignorance and how people won't able to develop themselves because of their ignorance. It doesn't matter if you are wrong, as long you learn something from it. I wouldn't mind if one of my students would correct me on something during the training because I want to become a better martial artist, this philosophy can be experienced in almost everything.
> 
> ...


Are you even following the conversation? You seem to have missed the point entirely (what a surprise!).

Your inexperience prevents you from making a valid assessment of whether NC's are less expensive than CC's because one must be familiar with their individual qualities in order to compare them fairly. There are plenty of NC's that cost less than many CC's... and there are plenty of CC's that cost less than many NC's. If I told you CC's are less expensive than NC's because Opus X's cost about $30 a stick and Cuban Quinteros are less than $3, how do you know if that's a fair comparison? It's not, but you don't. And there's no way you can account for the difference in taxes, even though I showed you why tax has little or no effect on my comparisons.

As for your rant on ignorance and your statement about "just sharing (your) knowledge", you simply don't even know enough about cigars right now to know how much you don't know! So, once again, your inexperience is relevant. Preaching to those of us who have years of accumulated cigar experience just makes you look smug and foolish, as does parroting the opinions of others as though you somehow have superior knowledge of the subject.


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## euro (Aug 2, 2015)

How many Cuban brands are there? There are 27. Compare those brands to the amount of non Cuban brands, how many non Cuban brands are there? More than 27, there are more non cuban brands than Cuban brands. It's logic that they are cheaper compared to the CC's. That's common logic.

I'm not talking about the quality but about the prices. What kind of experience do you have which I dont have? You have smoked more cigars than me so that means you know how taxes work LOL? We are not discussing the quality or how many cigars you have smoked, we are talking about the prices and taxes of cuban cigars. Those are two different things. You don't even pay tax on your CC's so how can you even say oh some NC's cost more than CC's?

And yes the prices of the CC's will increase for you Americans once the embargo gets lifted up. The guy in the video explained it all, you're the one who's being foolish for denying the fact that the prices will increase once they lift up the embargo. It's funny how you claim to be an "expert" yet you can't use common sense, yet you believe smoking cigars makes you know how taxes work. Sure, keep believing that fairytale.



> If I told you CC's are less expensive than NC's because Opus X's cost about $30 a stick and Cuban Quinteros are less than $3


Statement of the day. CC's are cheap because <insert brand> has a stogie of 30USD. Now that makes sense. Usually on those "sites" Cuban cigars are way cheaper compared to what we pay for them here in Europe. Simply because they are tax free. If you pay tax for them they will cost more. It's a fact. NC's are usually cheaper for some reason, I think this has to do with the Cuban tobacco. How can you even compare a NC stogie which you payed all your duties for with a CC which you didn't even pay tax for. That doesn't make sense.

Do me a favor and go look what Dr. Joe has to say about the embargo, you didn't even took the effort and watch that series because you assume you're right. If that's what you want fine, one day you will see that I was right about the prices. It's not about parroting it's about knowing the truth. Actually what Dr. Joe said in his video makes totally sense unlike what you are trying to say here. If you really believe that the embargo won't affect the prices well fine with me. At the end you're the one who's going to pay more for his CC's and not me.


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## Bird-Dog (Oct 16, 2009)

euro said:


> How many Cuban brands are there? There are 27. Compare those brands to the amount of non Cuban brands, how many non Cuban brands are there? More than 27, there are more non cuban brands than Cuban brands. It's logic that they are cheaper compared to the CC's. That's common logic.


That is neither common, nor logic. You simply do not know what you're talking about.



euro said:


> I'm not talking about the quality but about the prices. What kind of experience do you have which I dont have? You have smoked more cigars than me so that means you know how taxes work LOL? We are not discussing the quality or how many cigars you have smoked, we are talking about the prices and taxes of cuban cigars. Those are two different things. You don't even pay tax on your CC's so how can you even say oh some NC's cost more than CC's?


Quality has everything to do with it. Let me put it in simple terms that even you should be able to understand: All things being equal, high taxes, low taxes, no taxes, I can buy a CC cheaper than I can buy a COMPARABLE quality NC.



euro said:


> And yes the prices of the CC's will increase for you Americans once the embargo gets lifted up. The guy in the video explained it all, you're the one who's being foolish for denying the fact that the prices will increase once they lift up the embargo. It's funny how you claim to be an "expert" yet you can't use common sense, yet you believe smoking cigars makes you know how taxes work. Sure, keep believing that fairytale.


When did I say CC's wouldn't be subject to taxes if/when they become legal in the US again? When did I say they would not be more expensive buying through normal channels? I simply told you that taxes, or lack thereof, were not the reason I find CC's to be less expensive than NC's. It is very simple. CC's represent better quality for less. You obviously do not understand the tax situation in the US. If I add tax for a CC bought in a high tax rate area, then I need to do so for the NC as well because my judgement was based on pricing found in low/no tax zones for NC's as well.



euro said:


> Statement of the day. CC's are cheap because <insert brand> has a stogie of 30USD. Now that makes sense. Usually on those "sites" Cuban cigars are way cheaper compared to what we pay for them here in Europe. Simply because they are tax free. If you pay tax for them they will cost more. It's a fact. NC's are usually cheaper for some reason, I think this has to do with the Cuban tobacco. How can you even compare a NC stogie which you payed all your duties for with a CC which you didn't even pay tax for. That doesn't make sense.


You still don't get it. You have no basis for the statement that it's "a fact" that NC's are cheaper. My Opus X example-in-the-absurd simply highlights the need for on-par quality levels for fair comparison of pricing. Look! I can do it the other way around too! A Cohiba Behike 56 costs about $60 each. A La Finca Robusto costs about $2. Therefore NC's are less expensive than CC's, right? It's an absurd comparison. It proves nothing, except that you couldn't possibly know what a fair comparison is unless you are able to also fairly judge which cigars from both origins represent similar quality. So, I stand by my statement that your inexperience and lack of any exposure to NC's whatsoever prevents you from being capable of making that determination. Meaning, your opinion on the subject is less than worthless.

Nonetheless, I will revise my opinion that the entire problem is your inexperience with cigars. That's clearly not the whole problem.



euro said:


> Do me a favor and go look what Dr. Joe has to say about the embargo, you didn't even took the effort and watch that series because you assume you're right. If that's what you want fine, one day you will see that I was right about the prices. It's not about parroting it's about knowing the truth. Actually what Dr. Joe said in his video makes totally sense unlike what you are trying to say here. If you really believe that the embargo won't affect the prices well fine with me. At the end you're the one who's going to pay more for his CC's and not me.


I did... briefly. The guy has a foul mouth and a rude manner. From what little I heard he had no new info and nothing unique in his outlook (aside from being an offensive ass). I didn't say he's wrong. And I never said lifting the embargo wouldn't effect prices. But, it's just not news to anyone but noobs... hardly even worthy of a discussion at this point. And the presentation style was such that I could only stand to listen for a little while before I just got sick of the the guy. Feeling the same way about you, euro. You have nothing to add to the conversation.


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## concig (Mar 25, 2013)

Dr.Joe is right, ONLY if tax free prices that an individual pays at a tax free shop say in Switzerland, will be the same with the export prices a US importer/distributor will be paying to the Cuban exporter.imo the export prices will be much lower than the prices from a tax free shop,and this is the reason why the consumer in US will be able to buy at similar prices everyone pays in europe for example.Of course the final tax system in US will have the last word,as in europe,where prices in UK for example,are much higher than other european countries,because of the tax system.
I may be wrong though


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## euro (Aug 2, 2015)

> That is neither common, nor logic. You simply do not know what you're talking about.


There are more non Cuban brands compared to Cuban brands. There are many cheap NC brands compared to CC. Here they sell some brands you didn't even hear of, while it's impossible to get an Opus cigar here.



> When did I say CC's wouldn't be subject to taxes if/when they become legal in the US again?


You said that CC's are cheaper compared to NC's. You didn't even pay the tax for them so how can you compare a NC (you payed tax for) and a CC (you didn't pay tax for). That's just doesn't make sense. Sure if you still want to believe this go ahead no one is stopping you.



> I did... briefly. The guy has a foul mouth and a rude manner. From what little I heard he had no new info and nothing unique in his outlook (aside from being an offensive ass). I didn't say he's wrong. And I never said lifting the embargo wouldn't effect prices. But, it's just not news to anyone but noobs... hardly even worthy of a discussion at this point. And the presentation style was such that I could only stand to listen for a little while before I just got sick of the the guy. Feeling the same way about you, euro. You have nothing to add to the conversation.


Oh now it's the way Dr. Joe talks? What an excuse. It's about the message and both of us know he is right. The only reason why you didn't want to listen to him is because you know you are wrong. You know what? Lets stop this discussion, we probably will never agree to something. Instead lets go and enjoy a nice CC :vs_smirk:



concig said:


> Dr.Joe is right, ONLY if tax free prices that an individual pays at a tax free shop say in Switzerland, will be the same with the export prices a US importer/distributor will be paying to the Cuban exporter.imo the export prices will be much lower than the prices from a tax free shop,and this is the reason why the consumer in US will be able to buy at similar prices everyone pays in europe for example.Of course the final tax system in US will have the last word,as in europe,where prices in UK for example,are much higher than other european countries,because of the tax system.
> I may be wrong though


Here in Holland we're allowed to import max 25 pcs of tax free cigars. But people still import them from other places with no problem.


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## concig (Mar 25, 2013)

euro said:


> Here in Holland we're allowed to import max 25 pcs of tax free cigars. But people still import them from other places with no problem.


If you are importing any Padrons, be careful,many come in boxes of 26 :smoke:


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