# Help... 5yr buyer's remorse



## dabryan (Jun 3, 2007)

I hate long posts, but I am in need of help.

To start, here are some opinions that are almost seen as fact, that I base the remainder of my post on:

1) cigars need age
2) variety is important to a collection
3) there is no ultimate cigar, because everyone has different tastes

Because I respect the time you FOG's have put into these boards, I hold these opinions to be true.

That being said, I am a very methodical person. I will not invest time or resources on something without knowing full well that it is what is best for me.

I want to create line-up of Cuban Cigars, four or five specific cigars of which I would hypothetically purchase a box of each year, every year. These boxes would get marked with the year, and stashed away until they have gotten at least 5yrs before I even think about partaking in one.

I know that this is common place for some of you. I have seen posts and pics depicting this concept. I simply cannot figure the best way to approach this however. I have pored over these boards, and have yet to find a solution to this dilemma:

I don't know what my few, select cigars will be. 4-5 boxes a year is a reasonably small amount, but still nothing to just blindly purchase without knowing if it suits my individual taste. (see my methodical personality getting the best of me!) With any other cigar, I can waltz down to my local B&M and find many cigars with some age on them. Even if I went off of the numerous suggestions and newbie CC lists, I still wouldn't know until at least 5yrs from now if the cigars I purchased are right for me.

I desperately do not want to "waste" the next 5yrs on a crap shoot, not knowing for sure I am building a solid collection. I do not want to find out in 2012 that I made the wrong choices, and that other cigars suit my palette more than my initial choices. *I cannot fathom having 5yrs of buyers remorse! And trust me, starting out new, with no aged, cigars stockpiled, 5yrs is an eternity.*

I need help. I have reached my limit as to the research I can do to help myself. I turn to you for guidance.

dan

note: this is all hypothetical
:hn


----------



## motownflip (Jul 26, 2006)

what kind of cigars do you prefer? light body, full body? do you have a budget? Big sticks, small sticks? What do you currently enjoy?


----------



## RGD (May 10, 2006)

Whoa here - cigars are not something that need to cause stress - just relax a little.

First off - not all cigars need five years - some of the 06 crop are smoking really good even now.

READ THIS POST as it helped me greatly when I started out. I can honestly say that Dustin hasn't steered me wrong yet.

Also make use of the Top25Cigar link at the top of the page to help you find smokes that fit your taste.

Aside from that - if you look hard enough - you should be able to find singles before you invest in boxes.

Ron


----------



## The Professor (Jul 20, 2006)

motownflip said:


> what kind of cigars do you prefer? light body, full body? do you have a budget? Big sticks, small sticks? What do you currently enjoy?


:tpd:

yup ... we need to know that stuff to give you better suggestions. around here, everyone has an opinion and everyone has their own personal tastes. the same boxes I'd stockpile might be different than what motown or anyone else might. if we have a sense of your likes and dislikes, however, we might be able to steer you in a direction.

similarly, it might help if you have some cigars in mind and you're wondering about aging potential on several specific ones.

also, if you're just getting into CCs I'd recommend strongly that you track down a copy of MRN -- he's got some aging notes for every cigar (but can be "off" sometimes).

finally. be sure you've thought a good deal about storage before you begin your venture. you can have a box of great cigars with tons of aging potential only to have them ruined by poor temp and humidity control. if you're really planning to lay things down for 5 years, I'd probably try to keep things at 65F/65% ... maybe even drop the humidity down to 60. opinions differ on this matter, though. certainly you wouldn't want to be higher than 70F/65%.


----------



## K Baz (Mar 2, 2007)

The Professor said:


> also, if you're just getting into CCs I'd recommend strongly that you track down a copy of MRN -- he's got some aging notes for every cigar (but can be "off" sometimes).


Just got this book yesterday and it is WEALTH of Cuban cigar information. Take you 5 years jsut to scratch the surface.


----------



## chibnkr (May 2, 2007)

Um...well...you're liable to get a different answer from everyone who posts on this thread. My advice - try a bunch of singles, find out what you LIKE, and then go about aging them. Perhaps even seek out some vintage/aged sticks to try. I appreciate your desire to be methodical and applaud your foray into the world of aging, but would caution you to take it one step at a time.


----------



## dabryan (Jun 3, 2007)

Thanks for the quick response. I didn't intend on my post to come off stressed sounding. I am just very passionate about all of this.

Some brands I am fond of:
5 Vegas A
Joya de Nicaragua
PAM
Padilla Hybrid

I have gone over the CC newb list and of course the habanos-lounge and reviews and have somewhat of narrowed down my selection. I have taken the advice of smaller RG recently and have enjoyed that decision.

Boli PC or CJ 
Cohiba Robusto
RASS
Party Short or SD4
Monty 2
Trinidad?

I want to be able to select 4 or 5 that capture a decent spread of flavors etc. I also understand that many CC's are green and must be given time. 

I agree with trying some singles, but from what I can tell it's damn near impossible to find sources for singles with age.

I appreciate you all baby stepping me through this.
:al


----------



## dabryan (Jun 3, 2007)

motownflip said:


> what kind of cigars do you prefer? light body, full body? do you have a budget? Big sticks, small sticks? What do you currently enjoy?


medium to full, small sticks



RGD said:


> Whoa here - cigars are not something that need to cause stress - just relax a little.
> 
> First off - not all cigars need five years - some of the 06 crop are smoking really good even now.
> 
> ...


Thanks



The Professor said:


> also, if you're just getting into CCs I'd recommend strongly that you track down a copy of MRN -- he's got some aging notes for every cigar (but can be "off" sometimes).
> 
> finally. be sure you've thought a good deal about storage before you begin your venture. you can have a box of great cigars with tons of aging potential only to have them ruined by poor temp and humidity control. if you're really planning to lay things down for 5 years, I'd probably try to keep things at 65F/65% ... maybe even drop the humidity down to 60. opinions differ on this matter, though. certainly you wouldn't want to be higher than 70F/65%.


MRN?

I have a 120qt setup now with some NC boxes and singles. I would be buying an additional 120qt for long term box storage.


----------



## txdyna65 (Aug 21, 2006)

RGD said:


> Whoa here - cigars are not something that need to cause stress - just relax a little.
> 
> First off - not all cigars need five years - some of the 06 crop are smoking really good even now.
> 
> ...


:tpd: I cant agree with Ron more....I also found the 06's to be smoking good right now and I think would be good choices to lay down and smoke as you go. Also Dustins post has been invaluable to me as well as Ron throwing me off the cliff instead of the gentle nudge down the slope :r


----------



## j6ppc (Jun 5, 2006)

dabryan said:


> medium to full, small sticks
> 
> Thanks
> 
> ...


Min Ron Nee's book. Well worth it imho. Beyond that what they said... figure out what you like and buy more than you smoke = aging.

Enjoy.


----------



## The Professor (Jul 20, 2006)

It seems to me, dabryan, that you may be approaching this all wrong -- like you're climbing up the high dive platform before learning how to swim. Stop; climb back down the ladder; and pull up a chair. There's no hurry here. 

First things first. I gather from your post that you don't have a ton of experience with CCs. When you started smoking NCs, did you immediately start buying boxes? Probably not; rather, you most likely had a cigar from a friend, then started buying singles from a local store, then started buying samplers and eventually boxes online or locally. See ... you gradually got into it. You've also probably noticed that you tastes have changed a little from the time you started until now, right? So why would it make sense to treat the world of CCs any differently?

In addition to the wonderful thread linked earlier, here's my big piece of advice: sample widely and work your way up. Most of us didn't start right off the bat with vintage smokes or by stockpiling boxes of CCs we'd never really had before. Instead, many of us started by getting a couple here and there in trades; then we got in on some group buys with friends on the forum or elsewhere once we figured out some good sources; then we started acquiring full boxes for ourselves (those of us in Canada, that is). 

When I first started getting curious about CCs and nervous about smoking the couple that I had in my posession, a wise woman here at CS said to me: "I suggest you smoke them...one at a time. If you hang out on the forum long enough you will be seeing more...I am sure. Be sure you sign up for the Pay it forward board as well as the Sampler board. And try to make as many trades as possible-soon you will have quite a collection." Sure enough, before I knew it I had a few more and was doing splits with a newly gained friend (we still split, BTW). 

My point in all of this is to say that we've all been where you are right now and most of us learned that it's best to go with the flow, make friends, and all good things will come to those who wait, are patient, and learn. Take the time to figure out what you like and *then* start stockpiling like there's no tomorrow. 

I hope that advice helps. It's meant with the best of intentions. 

Peace. ~d.


----------



## pnoon (Jun 8, 2005)

The Professor said:


> It seems to me, dabryan, that you may be approaching this all wrong -- like you're climbing up the high dive platform before learning how to swim. Stop; climb back down the ladder; and pull up a chair. There's no hurry here.
> 
> First things first. I gather from your post that you don't have a ton of experience with CCs. When you started smoking NCs, did you immediately start buying boxes? Probably not; rather, you most likely had a cigar from a friend, then started buying singles from a local store, then started buying samplers and eventually boxes online or locally. See ... you gradually got into it. You've also probably noticed that you tastes have changed a little from the time you started until now, right? So why would it make sense to treat the world of CCs any differently?
> 
> ...


:tpd:
In a nutshell - take a year or two and try as many different CCs as you can. Then, and only then, will you be able to buy and age with the confidence that it is something you will like. Not something someone recommended.


----------



## dabryan (Jun 3, 2007)

:ss

So I am throwing on the brakes.
Going off everyone's advice, I'll wait it out. Sorry about my over-zealous attempt to build an aging rotation... that will come with time I guess. <impatiently taps foot>

I'm calm now, thanks for the advice and opinions.

dan


----------



## The Professor (Jul 20, 2006)

dabryan said:


> :ss
> 
> So I am throwing on the brakes.
> Going off everyone's advice, I'll wait it out. Sorry about my over-zealous attempt to build an aging rotation... that will come with time I guess. <impatiently taps foot>
> ...


No need to apologize ... a rotation is a good strategy (eventually). Sit back and enjoy the ride. It'll go a little something like this:










PS, don't call them ISOMs like the guy in the drawing


----------



## dvickery (Jan 1, 2000)

dabryan

i just love these threads...the excitement is almost a solid thing...but i rarely comment(let the thread run its course and then if i have anything to add...i do).this time i will jump in a bit earlier(not sure why).

there is no big secret...i(and everybody else)started pretty much the same way...some singles and a few five packs.some just jump in a little sooner and a little deeper(with the stockpiling/aging thing).

keep trying different smokes until you know what you like and then feel free to start BUYING MORE THAN YOU SMOKE of the ones you like.

over the years i have found the cigars that i personally like and "stockpile"

cigars i ask for at every lcdh i go into(these require some searching for in cuba)...50's of party shorts and 50's of bolivar petit coronas.

cigars i get every year(easy to find in cuba)...ryj cazadores , punch rs#12 , cohiba siglo II , partagas sdc#2.

cigars i buy lots of 5packs of(everywhere in cuba)...monty#4's

good luck and enjoy
derrek


----------



## Jmurman (Apr 22, 2007)

Something you should keep in mind about CC's. The mafs will sometimes change their blends. Take for example H Upmann Magnum 46. In 03-04 these were the total bomb, flavors that were out of this world. Lately they have been just so-so.

Some of the 06's that are smoking well now, with and additional 3years aging will have them smoking superbly.

Here are some to consider;

RASS
Partagas Short
Partagas PSD4
Partagas 898 Varnished
Punch Royal Selection 11
Juan Lopez #2
Diplomatico #3
RyJ X4
RyJ Churchill
RyJ Belicoso

What you might want to do is to buy some and trade some, that way you can get your feet wet and figure out what you like.


----------



## qwerty1500 (Feb 24, 2006)

I'm pretty much in the same spot as you. I've been serious about CCs for only a little over a year. It seems like you have received some great advice in this thread.

I've spent the last year just exploring and trying different cigars. But, I'm still only just barely half-way through Dustin's Beginners List. There are just so many good cigars out there that I still want to smoke.

When I first started smoking NC cigars, I thought I could find 3-4 cigars that I liked and just smoke them in a regular rotation. It didn't work for me then, so I'm not going to try it yet with CCs.

Try a lot of different cigars. If you don't have access to aged stock, try the young cigars that others say are smoking good. Listen, read and learn about the aging potential of different cigars. 

If you find something you like with good aging potential, pull the trigger on a box and tuck it away for a few years. Don't worry too much about if it was the same cigar you tucked away a year ago. The variety is going to be just as much fun 5 years from now.


----------



## carni (Jan 18, 2007)

I know for me and when trying a new vitola I go for a box split and works out well. If you like it order a box, if you dont like it your not too mad because you didnt buy a whole box.


----------



## hamncheese (Oct 5, 2006)

I'll put in my :2 here, though it seems that those who have posted before me have very good information for you. My opinion varies slightly.

Just about 18 months ago, I was in the same boat as you as far as not knowing what to do. I just went off recommendations and picked up a couple boxes. What did I end up with? Some cigars that were too young and all generally similar in strength/profile, not to mention a hell of a lot less storage room. Beyond sitting on the smokes and quitting smoking for the next 5 years, I found (through some guidance and sage advice) that if you're starting out, try and pick up stuff that's on vendor's aged list. You certainly won't find 95% of the "titans" of the Habanos world (i.e. RASS, PSD#4, BBFs, Mag 46s, etc), but you can find some really interesting (not to mention absolutely phenomenal) cigars that are ready to smoke. After you mess around with that for a while, develop a working knowledge of what you like and what a lot of lesser known stuff tastes like, AND (perhaps most importantly) have amassed a LARGE amount of storage space on top of what you're using for your smoking stash, only THEN should you start amassing fresh stuff to age yourself. The vintage stuff from the vendors is usually only a little more expensive, but soooooo worth it for the most part.

Take that for what you will as that's only my opinion. That's what I've been doing for some time now and I think it's working out great.


----------



## Addiction (May 8, 2007)

Your remorse should be a lot less than you think it is. There are very few cigars, very few, that wouldn't at a minimum hold thier value with 5 years of proper age on them. If you pulled a box in five years and didn't like it you could simply trade or sell it, and probably at a premium.

Having little to no ISOM experience (only smoked about 12 now) my plan is simply to ask people who have a lot more experience than I do and have similar tastes for a reccomendation and buy it. Once I reach the point of true interest.


----------



## badhangover (May 24, 2006)

Here's my advice. Please take it for what (little) it is worth.

In 5 years, if you continue in this hobby, and continue pursuing and smoking Habanos, you will have a MUCH better idea of what you like by that time. You don't know now, 'cause you're new to Habanos. No biggie. Here's what I would do.

Buy boxes of the insanely super popular, but average priced regular production, Habanos there are out there. It is darn near impossible to find these cigars for sale with any age on them. If you can find them with some age, look out! They're either gonna be super $$$ or they'll be of suspect quality (the reason why they were originally passed up in the first place). 

These cigars would include:
Bolivar Belicoso Fino
El Rey del Mundo Choix Supreme
Partagas Short
Partagas Serie D #4
Partagas Serie P #2
Por Larranaga Petit Corona
Ramon Allones Small Club Corona
Ramon Allones Specially Selected


These cigars are highly popular for a reason. They're all pretty darned good! Especially with some age on them. I'd strongly suggest picking these up, sight unseen. Now, I know that's bold advice, to suggest you pick them up without even tasting them first. Here's the thing, if you end up not liking them, I can just about guarantee you will be a very popular guy if you tried to unload any of those with 5-10 years of age on them. Particularly if they are "intact".

If you want to try aged cigars yourself, you are likely best served by opting for the slightly less popular vitolas in circulation. These less popular cigars are often sold at regular cost or just slightly above recent production pricing. Since big is in at the moment, I'm primarily talking about thin gauge cigars. Which happen to be among my favorite.

Pick up some samples too. Or get involved in box passes or straight up trades. Meet up with other Habano enthusiasts. Cigars are always flying back and forth at cigar get togethers.

Enjoy your 5 year plan! :ss


----------



## hamncheese (Oct 5, 2006)

badhangover said:


> Meet up with other Habano enthusiasts.


Lots of good advice here, but this is probably the most important thing that anyone can tell you to do.


----------



## Da Klugs (Jan 8, 2005)

dabryan said:


> I hate long posts, but I am in need of help.
> 
> To start, here are some opinions that are almost seen as fact, that I base the remainder of my post on:
> 
> ...


1. This is not necessarily true. The largest population of Cuban cigar smokers (Cubans) typically smoke them fresh. And, improvements in the manufacturing process and the use of more aged tobacco has greatly improved the taste of many newer production cigars since 03 or so. That being said, cigars can and usually do improve with age. Which ones and to what extent is the mystery of our little hobby.

2. It's only important if variety is important to you. Think of the "old guy". Everyone probably knows one growing up. Smoked the same brand and size exclusively for decades. It's all about what makes you happy that matters. Most cigar smokers have a "rotation" based upon their inventory. The larger the inventory, the more diverse the rotation can be.

3. Not true, there are a few "ultimate cigars". The problem is that they are so rare and or expensive that they become special occasion cigars vs. rotation cigars. 1492's, Cubatobacco 25th's, 1994's, various cigars that have "matured" to become classics, etc. The reality of things is that we all settle into a rotation based upon what we have to smoke, and what we like to smoke. Once you find things you like, you try and get more of the same or older versions of these cigars either through time or bank. Integrating into this mix trying new things and picking up older things makes the sport fun.

Don't over think the process. It's not the plan that brings pleasure, it's the journey. Just start.


----------



## Bruce (Dec 31, 1999)

"there is no ultimate cigar, because everyone has different tastes"

Not to throw a curveball at you, but this statement is not entirely correct.
To this day, I have not heard of anyone who has tried a Cubatobacco 1492 say that it was not an incredible cigar. Or for that matter, a Cubatobacco 25th Anniversario. 

So they do exist, it's just a matter of how much you are willing to pay.............


----------



## bazookajoe (Nov 2, 2006)

Da Klugs said:


> ...Don't over think the process. It's not the plan that brings pleasure, it's the journey. Just start.


 Sage advice.


----------



## RPB67 (Mar 26, 2005)

First you need to find your favorite Marca and size.

You dont want to have all the same size cigars . You need different sizes for different times.

I suggest you find a robusto,pc and a torp that you realy like.Once you do that you should buy a box of them each year and lay them down for a long rest. 

If you do this in five years you will have some great aged stock of stuff YOU enjoy smoking.

In the mean time. Do some trades,box splits, pick up five packs or singles. This will give you a variety and you may find something you realy like more and go back to step one and buy a box to lay down to rest. 

We all have our Marcas that we freak out over. You will as well.Doing it slow and steady will asure you a great collection that you wont have to pay a premium for.

Unless you start looking for 1492s !! :r


----------



## Infin1ty (May 12, 2007)

What you could do, if you were able to get a hold of some singles of some Cubans, you could see what you enjoy. If you enjoy a cigar without a lot of age you are going to enjoy it even more with age, so you should find what you like before you go out and buy a box for aging. I'm not saying that you can't go out and get lucky, because everyone has bought at least one box blindly and ended up loving it, but seeing as the type of person you are it seems like you would be better off trying some singles first, and then buying the boxes.


----------



## dahigman (Jul 4, 2005)

I have another point to consider. I have not been smoking cigars that long but I have had my tastes change quite a bit (NCs and CCs). The flavor profile you like now may not suit you down the road. I tried lots of stuff, built a decent collection, and then sold most of it to "start over". There are no guarantees that you won't have "buyers remorse". 
Hang out, learn, trade, and sample as many different sticks that you can. Most importantly, ENJOY yourself!


----------



## dabryan (Jun 3, 2007)

Thanks for all of the advice guys, I realize now that I was over thinking it. I decided it would be nice to try some monty #2s, some party shorts, and some boli pc's. I just pretended to buy some!

p


----------



## Coffee Grounds (Feb 14, 2007)

I have been smoking about 5 years now.
I have been smoking CC's for about 2.

I have only been aging for about 2 years. Some lines improve some don't

RyJ Cazadores improve a ton with just a year in the humi.

Bolivar Inmensas which is an awesome smoke to begin with does not show any huge improvement with over a year half in the humi. Atleast for me.

I know with only 2 years of smoking cc's I am still a rookie but I really think some cigars are meant to be smoked. Obviosly there is a fermentation process that occurs with aging so why not pick up some boxes and smoke one cigar every few months to see if you notice a change.

I would reccomend the RyJ Cazadores. It a strong straight forward cuban smoke but its somewhat cheap at $7 a stick.


----------



## Jbailey (Nov 9, 2006)

PuffDaddy said:


> I have another point to consider. I have not been smoking cigars that long but I have had my tastes change quite a bit (NCs and CCs). The flavor profile you like now may not suit you down the road. I tried lots of stuff, built a decent collection, and then sold most of it to "start over". There are no guarantees that you won't have "buyers remorse".
> Hang out, learn, trade, and sample as many different sticks that you can. Most importantly, ENJOY yourself!


Good call.


----------



## Boston_Dude05 (Oct 10, 2006)

Definitely some great advice here. Just to reiterate, get the MRN book for sure. It lists generally which smokes age well and which don't. Not all will improve by year 5 and some actually may lose flavors in that time period. Also experiment with different brands. But, I'd say start building a collection sooner rather than later as that is the fun part of it. Some smokes are just timeless and you probably wouldn't regret it.


----------



## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

I've been smoking Cuban cigars daily a little over 10 years, and I still am learning new things all the time. I also find my tastes change all the time. I also have cigars that I love now that in the past I didn't care for because they were too young or just had a bad box and never revisited. In short my advice is wait until you have smoked longer to start worrying about what to long term age. Plenty of stuff from 98-02 still around to try. :2


----------



## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

So they do exist, it's just a matter of how much you are willing to pay.............[/QUOTE]

........Or how many Bruce is willing to part with.


----------



## worr lord (Feb 3, 2007)

If you do start buying boxes like that, try a few before laying them to rest for 5 years, it's always good to see how cigars progress over time.

Some sources carry samplers, I suggest you look into one to get some variety before a big commitment


----------



## Genevapics (Dec 29, 2006)

pnoon said:


> :tpd:
> In a nutshell - take a year or two and try as many different CCs as you can. Then, and only then, will you be able to buy and age with the confidence that it is something you will like. Not something someone recommended.


This has been my approach as well and has served me quite well. Sample and take your time. Seek out members of various boards whose opinion's you respect (aka FOGS) and see what they purchase. Purchase a few of these and see how well their taste buds compare to yours. Above all, sample and ask questions.

As an example: About a month ago, I asked around regarding a nice summer smoke, something that was mild and would go well with summer drinks and the sort. The results were varied to say the least! To make a long story short, I have now found and fallen in love with the Juan Lopez Seleccion No.1 , Quay d'Orsay Coronas Claro and the HdM Epicure No.2. All have been absolutely wonderful cigars and perfect for the dog days of summer.

Cheers mate. Here's to you kicking back and taking your time to sample your way through some of Habana's best. Enjoy the journey.


----------



## hova45 (Jun 17, 2007)

well just start with samplers like people have said, i just start aging cigars about a year ago been smoking for 7 years. I usually have the luck of purchasing a box that has at least 2 years of age and they always smoke great I understand aging but it the cigars smokes good just smoke it.


----------

