# Real Briar? How is this possible?



## KinnScience (Mar 11, 2009)

Ok, I realize that basket pipes are made via machinery in some (probably) third world country where they pay peanuts for labor. But given the back breaking time it takes to dig briar ... then haul it ... cut it ... cure it .... (I mean, even the cheapest briar has to be cured in some way or all the sap and crap will make it completely unworkable .. not to mention unsmokable), ship it ... then cut it, turn the bowls.... match some kind of stem .... etc. How is it possible to sell these pipes for $15? I mean, even the cheapest ebauchon is probably going to run $5.... no?... and yeah, I understand mass production, margins etc. But the manufacturer takes a piece, the distributor takes a piece ... then the retailer has to get his bite.

The question I'm asking is .... Where does this wood come from? It has to be easier to get and cheaper than briar. it can't be the same material used by the carvers we are all familiar with. It has to be some briar .. such as perhaps the kind that was found in the US which was not suitable for making quality pipes ....

Anyone have data on this?

http://www.smokershaven.com/basketpipebent.aspx


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## Brinson (Oct 28, 2007)

Three words...Purchasing Power Parity.


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## Rascal (Jan 29, 2010)

There are briars out there that I call faux briars. I have only ever owned one and I realized afterwards that I needed to be more careful in the future. That is not to say it is not technically a briar but the wood is softer than it should be. It was a machine made basket pipe.

I have no idea how common that problem is among really cheap pipes but I have avoided them ever since. For me if it is not a cob I won't buy a new one under $30 unless I can hold it in my hand.


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## dajones (May 29, 2009)

Brinson said:


> Three words...Purchasing Power Parity.


Gary? Gary Brinson???


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## GuitarDan (Nov 26, 2009)

removed by author


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## Brinson (Oct 28, 2007)

dajones said:


> Gary? Gary Brinson???


Ummm, No.


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## ghe-cl (Apr 9, 2005)

Looking at the photo on the link, some of them appear, to me at least, to be estate pipes. Fifteen bucks for a used, no-name pipe doesn't seem all that out of line.


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## Rascal (Jan 29, 2010)

ghe said:


> Looking at the photo on the link, some of them appear, to me at least, to be estate pipes. Fifteen bucks for a used, no-name pipe doesn't seem all that out of line.


The link at the top says they are new pipes.


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## dajones (May 29, 2009)

Brinson said:


> Ummm, No.


Little econ joke.. 'ats all...


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## Brinson (Oct 28, 2007)

dajones said:


> Little econ joke.. 'ats all...


Hehe, I couldn't tell if you were joking or not. Hell, its _possible_ to meet him on a forum, isn't it? I have met a few published authors via websites before.


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## glpease (Feb 6, 2010)

Bear in mind that when a burl is harvested and cut, not all the wood will be suited for the top grades. The best plateau will be sold for high prices to the best pipe makers, who are willing to pay as much as $75 per block, as the pipe they make from that block could sell for ten times that. 

The lower grades of plateau are sold for less. The even lower graded inner wood is cut into ebauchons and sold by the bag. Depending on quality, the price per piece can go quite low. So, the same burl can produce $75 blocks and $5 blocks. The cutter's skill will maximize the yield of high-grade blocks, making the operation cost effective. That aside, there's a great deal more low-grade briar in the world than high-grade briar. And, we don't even want to imagine the price of quality briar, and therefore quality pipes, if the big factory producers weren't buying up the lower grades to make inexpensive pipes from. 

Factory produced pipes are turned on machines that are similar to key copiers. The model is copied onto four or six blocks at a time. It still has to be sanded, finished and stemmed, but the whole operation can be quite efficient. Granted, it was 25 years ago, but I remember being offered some really decent pipes, made from old bowls that had been turned in France years before, and fitted with molded mouthpieces, for less than $3 each by the gross. I wish I'd bought them. I do have a couple, and they're amazingly good pipes.

All that to say, yes, they're probably legitimate.


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## gibson_es (Jan 23, 2010)

GuitarDan said:


> Possibilities-
> 1)In the world of guitars, Chinese made guitars are often quite fraudulent in the descriptions of their instruments... this may be true here?
> 
> 2)They may be part of a wholesale order that got rejected, or the importer was unable to payfor, letting the factory rep sell them short (this happens alot- sometimes right at the port warehouse)
> ...


+1 on the guitar analogy


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## KinnScience (Mar 11, 2009)

*OT*



gibson_es said:


> +1 on the guitar analogy


Not that I don't agree about guitars made in china .. but it seems like a lot of well known guitars are made in china these days. I seem to remember our old lead (we haven't played out in years) telling me that Guild and Martin were getting some made there..... I think he told me that was why he was only buying Taylor.

Anyway, I've had several six shooters over the years ... and one 12. My latest is a Washburn D40. Solid spruce top...light brace .. inlay ... the works. Nice cutaway, but in tiny little letters inside the body ... are the words, made in china.

Sacrilege .. I know .. but whatteryagonnadew? I remember owning a WB shallowbody accoustic (the one that was so popular and cost more than it was ever worth) .. I think it was made in china also. Also ... um ... aren't Ovations made in China?

Apologies for off topic ...


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## KinnScience (Mar 11, 2009)

glpease said:


> Bear in mind that when a burl is harvested and cut, not all the wood will be suited for the top grades. The best plateau will be sold for high prices to the best pipe makers, who are willing to pay as much as $75 per block, as the pipe they make from that block could sell for ten times that.
> 
> The lower grades of plateau are sold for less. The even lower graded inner wood is cut into ebauchons and sold by the bag. Depending on quality, the price per piece can go quite low. So, the same burl can produce $75 blocks and $5 blocks. The cutter's skill will maximize the yield of high-grade blocks, making the operation cost effective. That aside, there's a great deal more low-grade briar in the world than high-grade briar. And, we don't even want to imagine the price of quality briar, and therefore quality pipes, if the big factory producers weren't buying up the lower grades to make inexpensive pipes from.
> 
> ...


Not sure if I originally asked this but .... I seem to have read somewhere that briar grows in other places ... but it is not briar that is suitable .. or "good" for pipe making.

I'm not interested in buying any of these to smoke ... but it does raise my curiosity re: marketing etc of pipes. Also, I have other reasons for trying to get to the bottom of this.

Machine made pipes:

I believe Stanwell makes pipes via machinery... so I'm not sure that automation omits quality in all cases. Though perhaps the "method" of automation is crucial

I have gotten the usual "quality" statements from the local salesman/distributor who sells inventory to the local B&M. As I am still trying to buy this establishment... it would be good to really understand all the differences between a "basket" pipe .... and a low end pipe like a "Leonesse" .. or "Larocca" that sells for $25-$35.

I guess the age old question is still pertinent. Regarding consumer goods of any kind; at what point does "quality" become a marketing tool, and where do those transition points reside?

PS. Thank you for your input.


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## ghe-cl (Apr 9, 2005)

Rascal said:


> The link at the top says they are new pipes.


Yes, it does. But look at the stem on the black pipe in the front of the bowl. Maybe it's just the photography, but it certainly doesn't look new.


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## Garys4598 (Jan 16, 2010)

glpease said:


> . . . All that to say, yes, they're probably legitimate.


Welcome aboard Gregory Pease!  It's fantastic to have you here.

~Gary


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## Mad Hatter (Apr 8, 2007)

*Re: OT*



KinnScience said:


> Not that I don't agree about guitars made in china .. but it seems like a lot of well known guitars are made in china these days. I seem to remember our old lead (we haven't played out in years) telling me that Guild and Martin were getting some made there..... I think he told me that was why he was only buying Taylor.
> 
> Anyway, I've had several six shooters over the years ... and one 12. My latest is a Washburn D40. Solid spruce top...light brace .. inlay ... the works. Nice cutaway, but in tiny little letters inside the body ... are the words, made in china.
> 
> ...


China is improving some of their stuff with direction from those in the know. Bicycle forks are a good example, but unfortunately they haven't mastered scraper blades yet. The two packs I bought at Wally World last month are about as sharp as my American made ones are when I toss them in the garbage.


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## ghe-cl (Apr 9, 2005)

*Re: OT*



KinnScience said:


> Not that I don't agree about guitars made in china .. but it seems like a lot of well known guitars are made in china these days. I seem to remember our old lead (we haven't played out in years) telling me that Guild and Martin were getting some made there..... I think he told me that was why he was only buying Taylor.
> 
> Anyway, I've had several six shooters over the years ... and one 12. My latest is a Washburn D40. Solid spruce top...light brace .. inlay ... the works. Nice cutaway, but in tiny little letters inside the body ... are the words, made in china.
> 
> ...


While Martin does make some of its guitars, low-end lines, I believe, in Mexico, I think that all their regular and high-end models are still made in Nazareth, Pa., and that they have nothing made in China.


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## Rascal (Jan 29, 2010)

KinnScience said:


> Not sure if I originally asked this but .... I seem to have read somewhere that briar grows in other places ... but it is not briar that is suitable .. or "good" for pipe making.
> 
> I'm not interested in buying any of these to smoke ... but it does raise my curiosity re: marketing etc of pipes. Also, I have other reasons for trying to get to the bottom of this.
> 
> ...


First there is nothing wrong with a machine made pipe or a cheap pipe. I don't think my father has ever owned a "nice" pipe and he has been smoking pipes for at least 40 years. If you have ever seen one of the ebay auctions for the collection of pipes that were all rather meh you would be looking at something similiar to what he owns. Adjusting for inflation he has never bought a pipe over about $35. All of his pipes are briars.

I, also, own several machine made pipes. In truth, they are not my favorites but many are a regular part of my rotation. For me it is a balance of spending. I want plenty of pipes to rotate and I want plenty of tins. Besides, any pipe that has been in rotation for several years is an old friend.

Secondly, I can't tell you every name of every pipe available. What I can tell you is that if you find a quality B&M or a reputable internet site they are going to care about their reputation and that means they will only sell you pipes they feel meet a certain quality. Usually a B&M that has been around for awhile and doesn't treat pipes as a side business is a good start. If you walk in and they have only 4 feet of shelf space dedicated to pipes, they may not care if you enjoy your smoking experience.


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## Rascal (Jan 29, 2010)

ghe said:


> Yes, it does. But look at the stem on the black pipe in the front of the bowl. Maybe it's just the photography, but it certainly doesn't look new.


But several others look too polished to be cheap estate pipes.


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