# Morales of Cuban tobacco.



## Noxus (Nov 10, 2008)

Greetings BOTL.
First off I'd like to say right off that this is NOT meant to be a political thread in any way. I just have some thoughts on the buying of Cuban cigars. So here goes.
I was having a cigar tonight ( an Acid ) and was thinking of other types and brans I'd like to try some day. Eventually I got to thinking about trying some Cubans some day. Now I'm no bleeding heart liberal but I couldn't help thinking that the purchase and consumption of Cuban tobacco helps maintain the current Cuban dictatorship.
I don't claim to be a vary knowledgeable person on the culture or society of the Cuban nation but I can't help but notice how oppressed the people of Cuba are. I don't think it's naive to believe that the sell of their tobacco products maintains the oppressive government there.
So I have a question for all who are regular consumers of Cuban cigars.
Do you have any morale or ethical dilemmas concerning the purchasing of Cuban tobacco? Are you concerned on any level that your money may be going to deny someone their freedom?
Would you purchase a product that would benefit drug trafficking, slavery, terrorism or pedophilia? If not, how is it any different form buying Cuban tobacco?
I'm not condemning anyone who smokes Cuban tobacco, I'm just wondering if when you buy these things, do you really think about everything you are paying for with your money?


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## yayson (Aug 21, 2006)

buzzkill! DING!


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## totallytentative (Oct 4, 2008)

I think if I were to stop buying things that may or may not support "questionable" governments, depending on what your standards are, I would be living in a log cabin eating muskrats and skinning pelts for a living. This might seem simplistic, but I can't worry stress out that much and tailor my lifestyle to be _that_ morally puritanical.

You can also substitute the word "governments" with "companies", which makes things even dicier.


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## d_day (Aug 24, 2008)

totallytentative said:


> I think if I were to stop buying things that may or may not support "questionable" governments, depending on what your standards are, I would be living in a log cabin eating muskrats and skinning pelts for a living. This might seem simplistic, but I can't worry stress out that much and tailor my lifestyle to be _that_ morally puritanical.
> 
> You can also substitute the word "governments" with "companies", which makes things even dicier.


 This was pretty much my initial thought. Virtually nothing is free from someone's oppression.


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## Snake Hips (May 30, 2008)

No. No I don't have any kinds of moral dilemmas.

Not buying them will not change anything. Buying them at least ensures the piddly salary of the poor bastages that toil to provide these luxuries for us first-world clients. If their government didn't get its money from the tobacco resource, it would extract it further from its people. The people who make cigars in other countries outside of the U.S. do not make much (if any) more than their Cuban bretheren. The money from the cigars may support their oppressive government, but at the very least it also supports their jobs. I realize that's a poor justification, but if I refrained from buying it to settle my mind, it wouldn't make a difference. If I bought more cigars from Nicaragua, Honduras or the Dominican Republic, I'd be solidifying the conditions of those poverty-stricken peoples as well. The only way around these kinds of things would be to not buy pretty much anything. Everything I buy these days as a citizen of the first-world supports the sad conditions of those elsewhere. My shoes oppress Indonesians, my clothes oppress Taiwanese, my gasoline oppresses Saudis, my TV oppresses Chinese, my diamond oppresses South Africans, my hardwood table oppresses Brazilians, and, alas, my cigars oppress Nicaraguans and Cubans. It's a sad fact of the modern globalized world, but that's how it is. I choose not to go about my life guilting about the unavoidable but rather thinking about what we can all do to make it better.


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## Vancehu (Nov 23, 2008)

Do you think cigar rollers in Dominican Republic, Mexico, Brazil, Nicaragua have better life style than the people in Cuba?

You need to go there to see what is going on. Like China in the early 1990's, Cuban government is keeping an eye shut when it comes to letting their citizens make a little extra money.

When I went there in 2002 during the Habanos Festival, I was with my supplier who show me how to have fun in Cuba for very little money, while the people over there can make some extra moola from me. 

She took me to a house by the beach, the owner served us great Cuban food, a five course meal (chick BBQ, Mojito, appetizers, desert and more) for $40 bucks (2 people), and they even gave us some cigars to smoke. My supplier/friend told me that instead of eating at the restaurant with a European like bill, we just did this family a favor, and we're not the only one.

Smoking Cuban cigars will not directly make the life of Cubans better, but its a start. Keep in mind that Cigar and Sugar is basically their entire industry. There is a good reason why Americans goes to Jamaica for vacation and Europeans go to Cuban. It is more fun and safer in Cuba.


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## Codename47 (Aug 6, 2007)

No problems for me to buy cubans :ss


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## krisko (Jul 28, 2007)

I'm normally not teh internets gestapo but I thought this was a story about a dude named Morales that worked with Cuban tobacco. The correct spelling would be 'Morals' of Cuban tobacco.

Let me ask you this. Do you shop at WalMart or buy Nike shoes? If so, you are doing a lot more to oppress workers and prop up regimes than I am. Why is it okay to do business with the Chinese and not Cubans? Isn't it safe to say that China oppresses more people more vigorously and is a greater threat to world stability than Cuba is?

I'll make a deal with you. Don't worry about what I smoke and I won't make fun of you for smoking Acid cigars.


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## Smokin Gator (Aug 17, 2008)

It doesn't bother me at all. First of all, I think our government's stance on the embargo has been ridiculous for years. Secondly, I think it is very egocentric to think our piddly purchases make any difference. The whole rest of the world trades with and supports tourist travel to Cuba. The cigar and tourist trades are certainly giving Cuba much needed cash. Our little purchases are not even a drop in the bucket. JMTC


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

Name a country that makes cigars... Are the people living in that country poor? Most of those countries are/were Communist and no one is living near the standard we do. Far more people have died in revolutions in Honduras and Nicaragua than have died in Cuba. Even today, they are dangerous places.

It is not fair to compare the "oppression" of the Cuban people to supporting slavery, terrorism or pedophilia. This is not a Lee Atwater campaign...

I am not concerned about my money restricting their freedom. I think (US Consumers) should take a look in the mirror and think of their own freedom first... What would our Founding Fathers say about or current state of Civil Liberty? Hell, we can't even smoke a cigar in a public place and your talking about lack of freedom in Cuba... Certainly freedom is not absolute anywhere in the world, but it's also a bit insolar to assume we are more free than somewhere else. We have about 1% of our population behind bars, ask them about freedom...


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## Andyman (Jun 8, 2004)

Do you feel bad when you buy something made in China?


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## skibumdc (Jun 27, 2007)

Noxus said:


> Do you have any morale or ethical dilemmas concerning the purchasing of Cuban tobacco? Are you concerned on any level that your money may be going to deny someone their freedom?


Whether or not American's have moral dilemmas, the fact is that the rest of the world has NO trade embargo against Cuba. While the US has great purchasing power, we are but one part of a large global trade economy.

The same applies to those that think by the US having an embargo that it helps to starve people in Cuba.....ummm, no. The gov't is doing that, not the fact that the us is not sending enough aid.


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## ActionAndy (Jul 9, 2008)

I can't think of a single just government on the face of the earth (although I can think of a few that I'd defend for how close they come...)


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## thebiglebowski (Dec 19, 2005)

Who's this Morales guy you refer to? What part doe he play in cuban tobacco and why should i care?


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## Cigar Man Andy (Aug 13, 2008)

Pretty much everything has been said already. and I agree. I have seen the living conditions in the Dominican Republic first hand. People live in shanties. Well to do families live in cinder block homes. They ride donkeys, bicycles, mopeds and horsed. If I gave it too much thought, I not only wouldn't buy cigars, but I wouldn't buy TVs, stereos, clothing, toys, add infinitum.

When we buy Cuban tobacco, it is not from the Cuban distributer. They're purchased from many other countries with employees that get paid to sell them. So we help support them as well.

When Kennedy imposed the embargo, it had to do with trying to stop Cuba letting Russia park missiles that close to the US. An even then, the day before the embargo, JFK sent Secret Service out to BUY every Cuban cigar they could find for his personal humidor.

I for one am looking forward to the lifting of the embargo. Not so much to be able to purchase legal Cuban cigars, but for the new blends that will come out of it. The US not buying cigars from Cuba will no solve their poverty situation in the least.

Of course, if you feel guilty about smoking Cuban cigars, stop, and send them to me. I'll report them, and turn them in for you. :r Or not and say I did.


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## CosmoKCohiba (Nov 6, 2008)

I amhearing attitudes of cultural imperialism in this thread, I have visited Cuba dozens of times and each time the same observation is made; Having a Ralph Lauren Outlet in your town, BMW dealership and Starbucks as us North Americans do, does not make a happy person.

Cubans have a natural warm hearted pleasant disposition that I am yet to see in mass anywhere in North America. Simply put they are not defined by materialism, the things we feel they lack, mean nothing to them. Overall they are a much happier nation than ours.


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## Blueface (May 28, 2005)

CosmoKCohiba said:


> I am hearing attitudes of cultural imperialism in this thread, I have visited Cuba dozens of times and each time the same observation is made; Having a Ralph Lauren Outlet in your town, BMW dealership and Starbucks as us North Americans do, does not make a happy person.
> 
> *Tell you what, it is one heck of a start on my way to happiness. Every time I drive my BMW, I am happy as a lark.*
> 
> Simply put they are not defined by materialism, the things we feel they lack, mean nothing to them. Overall they are a much happier nation than ours.


*
Wow!!!
Interesting.*

Funny thing......I am Cuban and can't imagine the feelings you allude to.
I can't fanthom the many Cubans that died crossing the Florida Strait in make shift rafts feeling that way either.
Actually, can't imagine any Cuban I know feeling that way.
Yet you seem to know our feelings so convincingly.

Truly interesting.

I guess you don't get the family letters asking for Nikes, eyesglasses, medications, MONEY. I must be the only one and so must my family.

One day, take a boat ride on that body of water between Cuba and Florida.
Take a look at that ocean.
Ask yourself: would you place your family and yourself on a make shift raft with the hope of making it across to the other side, knowing so many have tried and failed? Would you? Well, if likely it is you wouldn't, ask yourself why others would if they are so darn happy.


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## krisko (Jul 28, 2007)

CosmoKCohiba said:


> Simply put they are not defined by materialism, the things we feel they lack, mean nothing to them. Overall they are a much happier nation than ours.


Good point. I love my country but I feel no need to make others love it or adopt our lifestyle. I can see why a Cuban or a French person might think their's is the greatest country on earth.


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## CosmoKCohiba (Nov 6, 2008)

Blueface said:


> *Wow!!!*
> *Interesting.*
> 
> Funny thing......I am Cuban and can't imagine the feelings you allude to.
> ...


My in laws are Cuban, my family is from Guyana and guess what? My family from Guyana is constantly asking for Nike, electronics, money etc, they are convinced money grows on trees in Canada, this is the same with all families who have relatives in Caribbean. Cuba is no different!

With regard to Medications (Guyana experiences medication shortages too) and eyeglasses consider this; millions of Canadians and Americans can't afford those either, lack of accsess is lack of access regardless of reason and is a much bigger issue faced by the entire world...not just Cuba.

If you feel your BMW makes you genuinely happy, good for you, I own 2 (03, 330ci & 07 335i) myself, none of which bring me any happiness, I feel as happy as a lark when I sing my nephews to sleep at night,to each his own I suppose?

It is impossible to know the "feeling" of an entire nation, but being Cuban you must agree that people there have a much different and much easier atttained level of happiness and as such don't look nearly as misserable as most North Americans do at their 9-5 jobs?

Risky passage to North America is a common reality for citizens of many countries, my parents included. Cuba is no different!

All of the arguements you pose are common to 70% plus of the worlds inhabitants and not the least bit unique to Cuba, what is unique is the measurement/definition of happiness in these lesser developed nations (Guyana& Cuba) happiness is generally measured by family involvement and basic sustainablity, in N.A it's defined as competing with your family/neighbours/friends for a huge house, brand name clothing and expensive cars.


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## Munt (Jul 21, 2006)

My government says it's ok for me to buy them and my government ALWAYS does things properly and in the best interest of all mankind.:tu


Munt!


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## Blueface (May 28, 2005)

CosmoKCohiba said:


> My in laws are Cuban, my family is from Guyana and guess what? My family from Guyana is constantly asking for Nike, electronics, money etc, they are convinced money grows on trees in Canada, this is the same with all families who have relatives in Caribbean. Cuba is no different!
> 
> With regard to Medications (Guyana experiences medication shortages too) and eyeglasses consider this; millions of Canadians and Americans can't afford those either, lack of accsess is lack of access regardless of reason and is a much bigger issue faced by the entire world...not just Cuba.
> 
> ...


I am awed by your brilliance and simultaneous ignorance.
Go talk to your in-laws and show them what you have written here on a public forum.
Ask them to voluntarily go back to the happiness they had in Cuba.
I love it when people that were never at the scene of an accident, try to explain an accident to an eye witness.

I guess I am just one of the million plus Cubans that are an a..hole, greedy, materialistic ingrates that live in the US. So shall I be, with my toys, and BTW, I do have family also. Note my Avatar......grandson. You can have it all and that is what makes AMERICA a much better place to ever live than my homeland of Cuba. If that is Imperialism speaking as you so have said, then I guess it is.


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## ActionAndy (Jul 9, 2008)

With regards to any type of communism, I always used to ask the campus hippies: Well, which way was everyone running and swimming?


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## squeeze left (Jun 28, 2006)

Who can say whether it does more harm or good? I don't buy Cuban cigars - not because of any moral issues, but because it is too damn much trouble. My problem is not with Cuba or its government or citizens, but with an American government that legislates morality. 

The Commonwealth of Massachusetts just changed simple possession of less than an ounce of pot to a civil ticket - a $100 fine. (compared to federal criminal charges on Cuban cigars.)


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## CosmoKCohiba (Nov 6, 2008)

Blueface said:


> I am awed by your brilliance and simultaneous ignorance.
> Go talk to your in-laws and show them what you have written here on a public forum.
> Ask them to voluntarily go back to the happiness they had in Cuba.
> I love it when people that were never at the scene of an accident, try to explain an accident to an eye witness.
> ...


WOW, where did the personal attacks come from? I at no point used any derogatory language in my assertions, which were merely designed to point out he fact that Cubans don't have it any worse than 70% of the earths population. I apologize if I have offended you, it was not my intention.

Happy Holidays Bro. :ss


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## Blueface (May 28, 2005)

CosmoKCohiba said:


> WOW, where did the personal attacks come from? I at no point used any derogatory language in my assertions, which were merely designed to point out he fact that Cubans don't have it any worse than 70% of the earths population. I apologize if I have offended you, it was not my intention.
> 
> Happy Holidays Bro. :ss


No need to apologize.
No offense taken.
I never do, regardless.

Just tough on me as an exiled Cuban, whose wife has not seen her father in 40 yrs, who the closest he has come to seeing his birth place was from a ship on a cruise two weeks ago, from about 15 miles out, to hear folks speak of Cuba in a manner as if folks are happy there and live a prosperous life. It is a tough place to live. Are they happy? Can't say but can tell you one thing, there is no doubt they have needs and struggle on a daily basis to do something as simple as eat.

While I agree with you that a good part of the world does not live to our standards, that there is not doubt of, that comparison does not make Cuba a better place. It is a miserable place in that folks don't have the basics you and I share, freedom of speech. From there on, the things they lack are immense. Do they get accustomed to that lifestyle? Of course, what choice do they have other than to risk their lives at sea on a raft? To compare Cuba to other poor countries and say they are happy is to imply Freud's theory of projection. If others are as miserable, than it is OK.

Again, no offense. Anyone that knows me can tell you that. However, does not mean you won't hear my side of the story, from a guy whose family lost it all.


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## bobarian (Oct 1, 2007)

thebiglebowski said:


> Who's this Morales guy you refer to? What part doe he play in cuban tobacco and why should i care?


:tpd: I thought maybe I should google Don Morales?:r


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## krisko (Jul 28, 2007)

CosmoKCohiba said:


> WOW, where did the personal attacks come from?


Get used to this kind of stuff when it comes to the embargo. People are very passionate about it on both sides of the fence. If you aren't Cuban or have family in Cuba then you aren't allowed an opinion (or at the least your opinion isn't relevant).


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## Habanolover (Feb 22, 2006)

thebiglebowski said:


> Who's this *Morales* guy you refer to? What part *doe* he play in cuban tobacco and why should i care?


*Let us all make fun of people misspelling a word!*


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## Blueface (May 28, 2005)

krisko said:


> Get used to this kind of stuff when it comes to the embargo. People are very passionate about it on both sides of the fence. *If you aren't Cuban or have family in Cuba then you aren't allowed an opinion (or at the least your opinion isn't relevant).*


That is ignorant.
Show me where that is fact.
You are always allowed an opinion.
However, if someone else who has lived it opines differently, should they not express it?
Should an ignorant one that is inaccurate be allowed to persist?
If you are what remains at CS and its future, wow. I just want to add to this to say I know that is not true.
There are still great folks here who are very good friends.
You just don't see my world as they do.

I have thought about it for a while and seldom use it but you my friend are one whose posts I will never get to see again (ignore is a nice feature).
Your ignorance historically on this subject is more than one can handle.


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## Andyman (Jun 8, 2004)

No lets really not!!! :r


madurolover said:


> *Let us all make fun of people misspelling a word!*


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## krisko (Jul 28, 2007)

Blueface said:


> That is ignorant.
> Show me where that is fact.
> You are always allowed an opinion.
> However, if someone else who has lived it opines differently, should they not express it?
> ...


8 sentences and 3 or 4 of them are personal attacks. I would never deny you the right to an opinion or denigrate the opinion itself. You, however are not that open minded. You attack Cosmo and then you attack me when I take up his defense.

*YOU *sir are the problem. This is the internet where everybody has a right to an opinion and everybody else has a right to ignore that opinion. Great job on the personal attacks though...well done. Definitely the cream of the CS crop!

And I find it interesting that you will set my posts to 'ignore'. Make sure you put Cosmo on the ignore list too. That way you'll never be exposed to a differing opinion than yours and you'll never open your mind. I will NOT ignore you or anybody else for that matter. I'm interested in all points of view as I am open minded.


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## hotreds (Dec 4, 2007)

thebiglebowski said:


> Who's this Morales guy you refer to? What part doe he play in cuban tobacco and why should i care?


:tpd:


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## Blueface (May 28, 2005)

*Moral*

mor⋅al
   /ˈmɔrəl, ˈmɒr-/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [mawr-uhl, mor-] Show IPA Pronunciation
-adjective
1. of, pertaining to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong; ethical: moral attitudes.
2. expressing or conveying truths or counsel as to right conduct, as a speaker or a literary work; moralizing: a moral novel.
3. founded on the fundamental principles of right conduct rather than on legalities, enactment, or custom: moral obligations.
4. capable of conforming to the rules of right conduct: a moral being.
5. conforming to the rules of right conduct (opposed to immoral ): a moral man.
6. virtuous in sexual matters; chaste.
7. of, pertaining to, or acting on the mind, feelings, will, or character: moral support.
8. resting upon convincing grounds of probability; virtual: a moral certainty.
-noun
9. the moral teaching or practical lesson contained in a fable, tale, experience, etc.
10. the embodiment or type of something.
11. morals, principles or habits with respect to right or wrong conduct.

*Morale*

mo·rale (mə-rāl') Pronunciation Key 
n. The state of the spirits of a person or group as exhibited by confidence, cheerfulness, discipline, and willingness to perform assigned tasks.

*Morales*

The latter, with Antonio in front, is my dad's life long friend.

Hope that helps.

That Morales guy is some character.
You guys have to see him after a glass of wine.
I recall one Christmas where he had his landlord over for dinner with us.
He kept saying in broken English "Antonio big money".
Next month, the landlord jacked up his rent.:r

Antonio is the only guy I know that saw the DC Beltway over and over and over again, all day, before he realized he was going in circles while on a trip to Florida in the early 70's.

He also wondered who Frank You was.
He said he saw that name everywhere.
He thought Frank was some big shot that owned it all.
We later learned he war referring to "Thank You".


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## hotreds (Dec 4, 2007)

Gracias para esa informacion.


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## Tenor CS (May 1, 2008)

Noxus said:


> I was having a cigar tonight ( an Acid )


You lost me right there.

(Just kidding, I just felt like this thread needed a little humor.)


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## fsjonsey (May 23, 2008)

Tenor CS said:


> You lost me right there.
> 
> (Just kidding, I just felt like this thread needed a little humor.)


Whoo!


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