# The Cuban "Mono-Blend"?



## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

Whilst thumbing through the Winter 2007 issue of Cigar Press magazine, I ran across an interesting article called "Cuban Cigars: Worth the Hype?" (page 62).

I know what you're thinking "Oh christ, not another Cuban vs. non-Cuban debate" -- but that's not what interested me about the article.

What interested me were the two following paragraphs:

_Today, the only thing that really differentiates Cuban brands is their names. The fact that most people don't know any better allows Cuba to charge a hundred dollars for one box, and then slap a world-famous name on another from the same rolling table and charge four times that._

_I know what you're thinking... you have smoked a lot of different Cuban cigars before and thought they tastes different, and they probably did. But when is the last time you remember smoking a particular Cuban brand that was consistent - box after box year after year?_

In a word... "wow". That's quite a statement to be making. It would be easy for me to discount this particular passage as misinformed or biased or with some ulterior motive... except that I've heard this before.

I have heard from more than a few people -- who don't know each other -- that have spent time at some of the non-tourist oriented cigar factories in Cuba, and I've heard a disturbingly consistent story.

That story is that at least at some factories, cigars are rolled in a "mono-blend" -- there's really just one blend of tobacco used on a given day, and cigars are color sorted into boxes of various marcas.

On the face of it, this seems absurd. Cigars are the number 2 export from Cuba, so they are economically important, and with the storied history they have in Cuba, why on earth would they screw something like that up?

Still, hearing the same kind of thing from a number of people makes me wonder... your thoughts?


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## NCRadioMan (Feb 28, 2005)

Wouldn't surprise me, afterall, it is Cuba.

I have thought the same with some big name nc brands, too. A generic taste, if you will.


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## Lanthor (Jun 16, 2007)

I have to admit, alot of them taste the same to me, just chalked it up to being a newb. Seems like I can taste 'age' more than blends. I think I could pick a Partagas from a Boli though.

Fear and greed are always at play. The fear of this info. getting out versus the greed of the margins to be made. Pretty risky move if true given how fast word travels in the cigar community. Could image the difference in blends within a brand being small if any.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

To clarify, I'm talking about 2002 and later productions. 

Clearly this can't be the case for all marcas... some do indeed have distinctive tastes... but I could see it for certain other marcas that have been remarkably inconsistent and "muddy" in terms of their taste profile. Montes, RyJs, Punch, even H.Upmann and a few other select marcas, I could see this as happening.


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## dayplanner (Dec 11, 1997)

moki said:


> Whilst thumbing through the Winter 2007 issue of Cigar Press magazine, I ran across an interesting article called "Cuban Cigars: Worth the Hype?" (page 62).
> 
> I know what you're thinking "Oh christ, not another Cuban vs. non-Cuban debate" -- but that's not what interested me about the article.
> 
> ...


That's obviosuly complete and utter BS. See here: http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1480679&postcount=11

The reason people think this is _that_ even the rollers ignore what marca they're rolling. I have talked to several rollers who have sworn to me that all robustos are identical, that the band is the only difference. They simply dont know better.


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## Airborne RU (Oct 7, 2006)

That depends on how much psychological factors effect taste.

I remember reading the book _Blink _by Malcom Gladwell. In it he stated that certain things like a parsley graphic by the word Hormel gave the psychological impression of freshness (Which is valueable to have in what is essentially tinned meat). So I wonder if the same thing may be at work. A beautiful Cuban cigar band pumping up the regard to what actually might be a good cigar, but which is no different than a supposedly fantastic cigar.

I'm sure somewhere there is a study on this.

By that rational Pepin Garcia's blends would be, or should be strikingly different than is Cuban counter parts and I'm not sure that they are.

Perhaps the next time Pepin visits a B&M someone should ask him.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

Hi_Mntnce said:


> That's obviosuly complete and utter BS. See here: http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1480679&postcount=11
> 
> The reason people think this is _that_ even the rollers ignore what marca they're rolling. I have talked to several rollers who have sworn to me that all robustos are identical, that the band is the only difference. They simply dont know better.


Question... have you been to any factories in Cuba, and seen them blending the cigars first hand? Any cigar factories outside of the tourist areas?

I have just heard from too many people who have seen this happening first-hand to discount it as "complete and utter BS".

The people that I'm discussing know an incredible amount about the cigar industry in general, and Cuba in particular. So it is tough for me to simply ignore what they've stated was happening. It isn't just second-hand information from a roller.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

I find this pretty stunning... if true, it explains the inconsistency issues that we've been seeing... and it also makes a mockery of any preference for a particular marca's taste profile.

It seems so incredibly stupid, given how sensitive the connoisseur market is, that such things would even be contemplated, let along put into action.

If this is indeed true, and it is indeed widespread... why bother? It's like buying mystery meat.

.....

Sales & Revenue

Circa 2007, the seven global brands reportedly account for around 81% of the total Habanos sales:
Montecristo .............. 23%
Romeo y Julieta .........15%
Partagas .....................12%
Jose L Piedra .............12%
Cohiba .......................11%
Hoyo de Monterrey ..... 5%
H Upmann ................... 3%
Of the others, Quintero is 5% and Trinidad is 2%. The remaining 18 brands account for the 12% balance (an average of 0.7% each).

Of all the brands, Cohiba is the most profitable, with 11% of sales accounting for 20% of all revenue. The top selling Montecristo accounts for 29% of all revenue. These two brands account for almost 50% of all Habanos revenue.


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## Twill413 (Jul 19, 2006)

I really think this calls for some kind of scientific PPP. Line up a bunch of the same vitolas from different marcas from 2002+ and pass 'em all blind. Guess that would be the only way to settle it officially. Really interesting topic though, and I will watch the debate closely.


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## boonedoggle (Jun 23, 2006)

moki said:


> I find this pretty stunning... if true, it explains the inconsistency issues that we've been seeing... and it also makes a mockery of any preference for a particular marca's taste profile.
> 
> It seems so incredibly stupid, given how sensitive the connoisseur market is, that such things would even be contemplated, let along put into action.
> 
> ...


So, the question is: are sales based on name brand Cubans or the actual taste of the particular tobacco blends in all of the available cuban cigars on the market.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

Twill413 said:


> I really think this calls for some kind of scientific PPP. Line up a bunch of the same vitolas from different marcas from 2002+ and pass 'em all blind. Guess that would be the only way to settle it officially. Really interesting topic though, and I will watch the debate closely.


That's really the reason I posted this thread. I don't think there is a definitive answer one way or the other in terms of how widespread this issue is.

I was interested to hear if anyone had first-hand knowledge of seeing this happen.

I know a number of people whom I find personally credible -- as well as extremely knowledgeable about Cuban cigars -- that say they did indeed see it. I'm interested if anyone else has as well.

How widespread is it? It probably depends on how much control there is at a particular factory.


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## SmokinApe (Jun 20, 2007)

I am sure that blends get blended... Meaning that if someone ran out of the leaf they were suppoed to use and had a quota, leaves from other blends would make thier way into the mix...

I have seen "experts" fail blind taste tastes for; soda, beer, vodka, wine, cigars and even bottled water... People do buy based off brand, that is why marketing works... 

I am sure anything is possible...


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## dayplanner (Dec 11, 1997)

There is no "issue". Your bahavior in this thread is that of a troll.


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## burninator (Jul 11, 2006)

Hi_Mntnce said:


> There is no "issue". Your bahavior in this thread is that of a troll.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

Claudius said:


> There is no "issue". Your bahavior in this thread is that of a troll.


Wow... that's quite an accusation. I assure you that it was not my intention. I really did want to hear your answer to my question above.

Have you been to any factories in Cuba, and seen them blending the cigars first hand? Any cigar factories outside of the tourist areas?

The reason that I ask is that I know personally a number of people -- some of whom are in the cigar industry, and very knowledgeable about cigars and tobacco -- who have.

That's what I am basing my statements, and I assure you I am not "trolling"


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## NCRadioMan (Feb 28, 2005)

Hi_Mntnce said:


> There is no "issue". Your bahavior in this thread is that of a troll.


:r :r Moki the troll! :r

Chill out bro, and go smoke a cigar. It's a legit conversation that you obviously can't handle.


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## SmokinApe (Jun 20, 2007)

Just a quick though, why limit this to Cuban factories? Could the same "issue" exist at NC factories?


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

Don't misunderstand me -- I'm not stating that this is happening to _all_ cigars across various marcas. I think that based on what I've been told, it has more to do with the factory in question, and the level of control/supervision at said factory. It may also have to do with how much of a particular tobacco they have.

For instance, if they run out of a tobacco that needs to be used to make the Montecristo blend, does anyone believe that they just stop producing Montecristo cigars? I highly doubt it... they likely just grab some substitute tobacco/blend, band it a Montecristo, and away it goes.

Remember that this is cash-strapped Cuba. Anything, no matter how incredible, may very well be going on. I will confess that the first time this information was related to me, I didn't believe it at all. The more it gets repeated to me -- by credible people -- the more it seems possible.


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## Airborne RU (Oct 7, 2006)

Well on second thought one could say that about anything. Beer, wine, scotch, burbon, ice cream. . .

Is there a message board somewhere where members are saying "05 Stag's Leap is the same blend as 06 Frog's Pounce. . ." Could be. Wine after all is a major industry in Chile, Australia, Cali, and France. The major wineries all try to keep up with demand yet keep quality high. Yet I don't think we question wine in the same way we question cigars. Perhaps we question buying a luxury good from such a poor country? I don't know.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

SmokinApe said:


> Just a quick though, why limit this to Cuban factories? Could the same "issue" exist at NC factories?


I think it can and does happen in other factories too. However companies that are less cash-strapped are less likely to have this happen. Padrón, for instance. They only produce as many 1964 Anniversary cigars as they have tobacco for. If they run out for a particular crop year, and don't want to dip too deeply into their stock of aging tobacco, they just stop making them.


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## dayplanner (Dec 11, 1997)

moki said:


> Wow... that's quite an accusation. I assure you that it was not my intention.


Well, it sounded like it: I posted how they make the different blends and how no one (including the rollers) knows what type of leaves they're rolling to achieve said blend, and you ask me whether I've been there to see it. That's not an argument (in the sense of logical conversation) but an attempt to discredit the poster.



moki said:


> Have you been to any factories in Cuba, and seen them blending the cigars first hand? Any cigar factories outside of the tourist areas?
> 
> The reason that I ask is that I know personally a number of people -- some of whom are in the cigar industry, and very knowledgeable about cigars and tobacco -- who have.
> 
> That's what I am basing my statements, and I assure you I am not "trolling"


Yes, I've been to the Cuba and seen a few factories, but you dont get to see the blending part unless you're friends with the manager (which I'm not). You do realize that there is a master blender who determines the blend of so many leaves of this, so many of this other, etc. and then hands the rollers the bunches of leaves telling them what to assemble in what quantities. Except him and a few people at Tabacuba (not Habanos SA), no one knows what goes into the blends. It's a secret. The rollers think all robustos for example are the same, because in all robustos, there are 2 leaves of volado, 2 of seco, and 2 of ligero. The leaves are from different provenances, but they dont know that. They will tell you, visitors and everybody who asks that all the cigars are the same and that only the packaging differs. And those who know wont say any different.  The more confused people are about this, the better in order to keep the secret.


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## NCRadioMan (Feb 28, 2005)

Nice post Claudius, great info! You could have posted that and not acted like an asshat. :2


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## dayplanner (Dec 11, 1997)

NCRadioMan said:


> Nice post Claudius! You could have posted that and not acted like an asshat. :2


I did, but you had to click the link, LOL!


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## Jbailey (Nov 9, 2006)

moki said:


> That story is that at least at some factories, cigars are rolled in a "mono-blend" -- there's really just one blend of tobacco used on a given day, and cigars are color sorted into boxes of various marcas.


When I was at MMHIII I chatted with Eric Espinosa of the 601 brand he made a statement very close to the one above.


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## Airborne RU (Oct 7, 2006)

moki said:


> For instance, if they run out of a tobacco that needs to be used to make the Montecristo blend, does anyone believe that they just stop producing Montecristo cigars? I highly doubt it... they likely just grab some substitute tobacco/blend, band it a Montecristo, and away it goes.


I'm sure that the factories have internal redundancies. For example, if you look at the back of a Minute Maid bottle of apple juice, it will read something like "made with apple juice concentrate from Argentina, China, Canada, and USA." Perhaps an apple juice "blend" produces a superior and consistant product, however the truth is is that manufacturers use blends like this to guard against crop failure. If you use 100% German apples, for example, and Germany has a drought one year, what do you do not sell apple juice? Or use Canadian apples as a substitute and then get calls up the wazzu because a lot of people noticed the change in taste, smell, color, cloudiness? I know that beer makers do something similar with regards to the hopps that they use for their brews (some from Bavaria, some from Kansas, etc).

I think that something similar is going on here with Cuban cigars.



moki said:


> Remember that this is cash-strapped Cuba. Anything, no matter how incredible, may very well be going on. I will confess that the first time this information was related to me, I didn't believe it at all. The more it gets repeated to me -- by credible people -- the more it seems possible.


I think this is sort of like the Chinese restaurant syndrome. The food is so readily available, and it is produced by people that I don't know or who don't look like me and whose motivation is of pure cash strapped-ness, they must use dog meat or cat meat in the food that they serve. Our smoker's anxiety is very similar, it's the "am I being had" question all over again but this time instead of fried rice we are talking about robustos.

I think that something approaching that level of suspicion is going on here with regards to a non-transparant government which has non-transparant industry. It leaves us only to speculate as to the provinance of goods that we are buying.

However I think it is just as likely that the Chinese Restaurant syndrome is as likely the cause of our smoker's anxiety as anything else.


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## SmokinApe (Jun 20, 2007)

People aways want more money, it doesn't matter if your cash strapped or not... IMO, the more you have the more you want...


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## M1903A1 (Jun 7, 2006)

Hi_Mntnce said:


> You do realize that there is a master blender who determines the blend of so many leaves of this, so many of this other, etc. and then hands the rollers the bunches of leaves telling them what to assemble in what quantities. Except him and a few people at Tabacuba (not Habanos SA), no one knows what goes into the blends. It's a secret. The rollers think all robustos for example are the same, because in all robustos, there are 2 leaves of volado, 2 of seco, and 2 of ligero. The leaves are from different provenances, but they dont know that. They will tell you, visitors and everybody who asks that all the cigars are the same and that only the packaging differs. And those who know wont say any different. The more confused people are about this, the better in order to keep the secret.


I wonder how they work out the different provenances of the various leaves...is that the job of the crop tester who (according to one of my books) rolls up a sample fresh leaf and smokes it raw?


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## Ashcan Bill (Jul 29, 2006)

Airborne RU said:


> I know that beer makers do something similar with regards to the hopps that they use for their brews (some from Bavaria, some from Kansas, etc).
> 
> I think that something similar is going on here with Cuban cigars.


You're exactly right, although it actually it goes deeper than just the hops, into the actual malts used to cook the mash. Each year the crops change in terms of yield, characteristics, and quality, all of which must be taken into account. The bottom line, with beer at least, is the brewmasters continually taste and revise the recipes to maintain a certain taste profile for each specific beer.

I wonder if that isn't what's happening here, with the blends being changed according to the variances in the tobacco crops, and people are getting a little confused about what's really taking place?


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

Hi_Mntnce said:


> Yes, I've been to the Cuba and seen a few factories, but you dont get to see the blending part unless you're friends with the manager (which I'm not). You do realize that there is a master blender who determines the blend of so many leaves of this, so many of this other, etc. and then hands the rollers the bunches of leaves telling them what to assemble in what quantities. Except him and a few people at Tabacuba (not Habanos SA), no one knows what goes into the blends. It's a secret. The rollers think all robustos for example are the same, because in all robustos, there are 2 leaves of volado, 2 of seco, and 2 of ligero. The leaves are from different provenances, but they dont know that. They will tell you, visitors and everybody who asks that all the cigars are the same and that only the packaging differs. And those who know wont say any different. The more confused people are about this, the better in order to keep the secret.


Yes, I do realize this. Unfortunately, I cannot really say more about it without revealing too much about at least one of the people who has mentioned this information to me. Suffice it to say that he knows more than you... and I... about cigars.

I'm aware of everything you mentioned in your post... but it is not relevant. I say that because what I've been told was witnessed was cigar rollers rolling a particular vitola, then all of that vitola being laid out on a table to be inspected for quality. All of the cigars were together on the table, no way to distinguish between them... and then _based on wrapper color_ different marca bands were applied, and the cigars were boxed in different marca boxes.

So none of what you posted regarding the secrecy of blends, albeit accurately, is really germane to the discussion. And again, people who have witnessed this are people who have actually worked in the cigar industry enough to know exactly what's going on.

There's more to it as well, but it doesn't really matter. If you don't believe me, or doubt my intentions, there's nothing I can really do or say to assuage you.

I don't doubt the veracity of the information I've posted. The only question I have is how widespread is it. I think it probably can't be *that* widespread... but an awful lot of people have seen it happening first-hand. People who know what they are looking at, not just cigar lovers.


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## NCRadioMan (Feb 28, 2005)

Hi_Mntnce said:


> I did


And yet, you still acted like an asshat, LOL!


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## Hammerhead (Sep 7, 2005)

NCRadioMan said:


> Nice post Claudius, great info! You could have posted that and not acted like an asshat. :2


Heh... my dilemma is whether to ding his RG for being an asshat, or bump him for a semi-intelligent post.


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## Bear (Sep 22, 2007)

moki said:


> Yes, I do realize this. Unfortunately, I cannot really say more about it without revealing too much about at least one of the people who has mentioned this information to me. Suffice it to say that he knows more than you... and I... about cigars.


Without revealing too much about your source for information, can you be certain that there isn't an ulterior motive to discredit the industry in Cuba? It seems to me that the crop yields in Cuba are consistent in volume and the quality of the leaf is the only thing that can be called into question. This (I would think) would only be affected by weather patterns as everything else stays pretty much the same (soil condition, crop maintenance and harvesting techniques).
Can the product seem inconsistent? I suppose so, but that is the nature of dealing with crops or vintages (just like wines).
The master blenders probably do the best to keep the profiles as consistent as possible based on the leaf that is available to them. I would imagine that this is where Cuba has an edge in that their production fields are vast and spread out across the Island.
As for a roller rolling a day's worth of cigars only to see them banded & branded as different marcas I'm hesitant to buy that. My reasoning being that the process is so broken up that the rollers are not involved in the banding & boxing of the cigars they roll. The whole process must be very secretive / compartmentalized as each employee in the factory is trained at their job and is made to focus on that one job (think of the training involved to become a roller).
Who knows... maybe I'm wrong. Besides, I'm enjoying this thread for the discussion it's bringing!


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

Bear said:


> The master blenders probably do the best to keep the profiles as consistent as possible based on the leaf that is available to them. I would imagine that this is where Cuba has an edge in that their production fields are vast and spread out across the Island.


I'd actually give the edge to some of the larger independent cigar makers like Padrón and Fuente... only because I know they keep rather massive stockpiles of tobacco, which they use (in part) to keep the bends consistent year over year. But that's really neither here no there.



> As for a roller rolling a day's worth of cigars only to see them banded & branded as different marcas I'm hesitant to buy that. My reasoning being that the process is so broken up that the rollers are not involved in the banding & boxing of the cigars they roll. The whole process must be very secretive / compartmentalized as each employee in the factory is trained at their job and is made to focus on that one job (think of the training involved to become a roller).


I'm not sure what you mean here. First, as I mentioned, there is far more to it than I've stated here. I trust my sources explicitly, and I will not betray them for something so silly as winning an argument.

However, let me expand on the scenario I mentioned. Let's assume for the sake of argument that these rollers are indeed making different blended cigars (even though I was assured by people who would be in the position to know that this was not the case).

Then their daily production is taken to a table, mixed together with the production from all of the other cigar rollers. Then someone else inspects them for quality control, discarding anything that doesn't pass muster. Then other people entirely start color-sorting the cigars and matching various wrapper shades to various marca boxes, and banding the cigars willy nilly.

Does that clarify things a bit? I did not mean to imply that the rollers would be involved in the banding or boxes of the cigars -- far from it.


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## Bear (Sep 22, 2007)

moki said:


> I'd actually give the edge to some of the larger independent cigar makers like Padrón and Fuente... only because I know they keep rather massive stockpiles of tobacco, which they use (in part) to keep the bends consistent year over year. But that's really neither here no there.


I can see your point. I wonder if it also has to do with these larger independents only having to concentrate an a smaller amount of blends? (discuss?)



moki said:


> I'm not sure what you mean here. First, as I mentioned, there is far more to it than I've stated here. I trust my sources explicitly, and I will not betray them for something so silly as winning an argument.


Wouldn't ask you to / not my intent from my OP.



moki said:


> However, let me expand on the scenario I mentioned. Let's assume for the sake of argument that these rollers are indeed making different blended cigars (even though I was assured by people who would be in the position to know that this was not the case).


I'm learning something new here... Would a roller be involved in rolling several different blends throughout the day?



moki said:


> Then their daily production is taken to a table, mixed together with the production from all of the other cigar rollers. Then someone else inspects them for quality control, discarding anything that doesn't pass muster. Then other people entirely start color-sorting the cigars and matching various wrapper shades to various marca boxes, and banding the cigars willy nilly.


Hmm... I'll defer to your (and your sources) broader knowledge of the process, but it seems sloppy to me if that's how it's done. You'd think each sorting table is dedicated to a specific blend / marca... but then again, I guess this goes to the heart of your OP.



moki said:


> Does that clarify things a bit? I did not mean to imply that the rollers would be involved in the banding or boxes of the cigars -- far from it.


I have to say I'm still enjoying the thread! :tu


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

Bear said:


> Hmm... I'll defer to your (and your sources) broader knowledge of the process, but it seems sloppy to me if that's how it's done. You'd think each sorting table is dedicated to a specific blend / marca...


Yes... that's exactly my point...


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## Fumioso (Apr 28, 2006)

Twill413 said:


> I really think this calls for some kind of scientific PPP. Line up a bunch of the same vitolas from different marcas from 2002+ and pass 'em all blind. Guess that would be the only way to settle it officially. Really interesting topic though, and I will watch the debate closely.


This is what it comes down to, IMO. If the taste of one marca is indistinguishable from another, then it's just marketing flim flam. I know my palate isn't sensitive enough to make these distinctions, and I don't think most palates are... but that's why I smoke Fonsecas.


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## Da Klugs (Jan 8, 2005)

moki said:


> Yes... that's exactly my point...


:r Smoke the 1492. Maybe it's really a Dark Siglo II.


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## Harpo (Oct 11, 2007)

Meh. I like cigars.


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## Navydoc (Jan 26, 2005)

Da Klugs said:


> :r Smoke the 1492. Maybe it's really a Dark *Siglo II*.


No that's the Club Epicure :ss...com'on Dave, let's not confuse this even more then it already is


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

SmokinApe said:


> Just a quick though, why limit this to Cuban factories? Could the same "issue" exist at NC factories?


This would be less likely at NC factories as they can and do use tobacco from all over the world; not exclusive to one area.

I think the "mono-blend" factor may also have to do with the size cigars coming out of Cuba as well some of the improved curing processes in place. The large ring gauge cigars and robustos tend to taste "bland" or one demensional to a degree. I forget which leaf the robustos have more of, Seco? that is quite bland but burns well.

Surly, anyone could tell a Part. Serie Con. 1 from a Grande de Espana or Lancero... All are the same size, but are also geared towards a certain kind of smoker.


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## Bear (Sep 22, 2007)

moki said:


> Yes... that's exactly my point...


It makes for an interesting conversation, but FWIW I'm not convinced.

Long Ashes Brother!


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## PadronMe (Apr 26, 2005)

Bear said:


> but it seems sloppy to me if that's how it's done.


I think the Cubans have proved over the years that quality control isn't up to par. I am referring to presentation. Many discrepancies in box codes, notched( or not) cedar dividers, holograms, seals, bands, wax paper, Habanos label placement, ect. have not always led to conterfeit cigars, just poor quality control. So, I absolutely believes it happens. It happens in the US so why not Cuba.


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## Bear (Sep 22, 2007)

PadronMe said:


> I think the Cubans have proved over the years that quality control isn't up to par. I am referring to presentation. Many discrepancies in box codes, notched( or not) cedar dividers, holograms, seals, bands, wax paper, Habanos label placement, ect. have not always led to conterfeit cigars, just poor quality control. So, I absolutely believes it happens. It happens in the US so why not Cuba.


IMO - I think there's a big difference in messing up on label placement, dividers & holograms and messing up on the actual product. 
With that said, those types of mistakes can be a symptom of a larger problem...


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## rumballs (Mar 15, 2005)

Da Klugs said:


> :r Smoke the 1492. Maybe it's really a Dark Siglo II.


I thought I heard that when a 1492 is not a 1492, it's really a Punch of some sort...
:r


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## Bear (Sep 22, 2007)

Da Klugs said:


> :r Smoke the 1492. Maybe it's really a Dark Siglo II.





mmblz said:


> I thought I heard that when a 1492 is not a 1492, it's really a Punch of some sort...
> :r


Skeptics unite!
:r


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## PadronMe (Apr 26, 2005)

Bear said:


> With that said, those types of mistakes can be a symptom of a larger problem...


Exactly.


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## mash (Jul 24, 2007)

moki said:


> I'd actually give the edge to some of the larger independent cigar makers like Padrón and Fuente... only because I know they keep rather massive stockpiles of tobacco, which they use (in part) to keep the bends consistent year over year. But that's really neither here no there.
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean here. First, as I mentioned, there is far more to it than I've stated here. *I trust my sources explicitly, and I will not betray them for something so silly as winning an argument.*
> 
> ...


The problem is, you put this out there specifically to initiate/win an argument. We are supposed to seriously consider this very provocative/controversial post and lend the same credibility to your sources that you do, without knowing who they are. I suspect if anyone put forth an opposing view and named their sources, you would be convinced they weren't as in the know as yours. But of course, no one knows who your sources are. You're a stickler for evidence, so am I. This is so risky for the Cuban cigar industry that I am not prepared to accept it on hearsay.


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## hoax (Aug 7, 2007)

I can easily see how the mixing of cigar brands can happen, especially with the premium cigar lines.

If you have X capacity for production, and you sell Y cigars, but X > Y. What do you do with the extra cigars?


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## icehog3 (Feb 20, 2005)

hoax said:


> If you have X capacity for production, and you sell Y cigars, but X > Y. What do you do with the extra cigars?


Smoke 'em?


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## Bear (Sep 22, 2007)

hoax said:


> I can easily see how the mixing of cigar brands can happen, especially with the premium cigar lines.
> 
> If you have X capacity for production, and you sell Y cigars, but X > Y. What do you do with the extra cigars?


Slap a R.E. label on it and sell it for twice the price?
:r


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## carni (Jan 18, 2007)

hoax said:


> I can easily see how the mixing of cigar brands can happen, especially with the premium cigar lines.
> 
> If you have X capacity for production, and you sell Y cigars, but X > Y. What do you do with the extra cigars?


They sit the extra for a year then call it Reserva or Edicion Limitada and make more money on them:ss

I do think if something like a mono-blend was going on for all CC brands then the powers that be....cigar media like CA or European Cigar Cult Journal would be all over it.

Also, there are brand similarities and shared rolling factories....habanos website tells you that....but if your palate cant tell the difference between the a cohiba, montecristo, partagas, etc., I feel bad for you because tasting the suttle differences is the neaunce for any aficionado wine, cigars, beers etc. (i can taste a difference however do not have the full description of what i am tasting...never got "madagascar vanilla":tu)

I will also say when smoking a cigar I have been able to pick out the specific country of puros. So a cc being a puro may carry some of the same characteristics like a DR puro or NIC puro....you can recognize the puro origin similarity a mile away.

Besdies a "mono-blend" for long filler is impossible based on differences in ring gauge and length....you can not fill every sized cigar with one (mono) exact blend. IMHO


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## Da Klugs (Jan 8, 2005)

Many things go into the "taste experience". For me regarding cigars its a combination of 3 things. Cigars, Circumstance and Company. Best day of your life with your best friends = cigar, any cigar, tastes better. One of my best cigar memories is after the birth of our first child. Emergency C section. After Mom and new baby girl were safe and resting had a Hoyo Excalibur # 1 in the parking lot. No better tasting cigar will every touch my lips. Doesn't mean I buy and smoke them now. It was a time and circumstances kind of cigar memory never to be duplicated. It's all about achieving the highest degree of pleasure you can from the experience not comparing one component, in this case cigars and drawing conclusions based upon that. If that were really what it's all about there would be specifications on cigars regarding type of leaf combinations etc. I want an x% seco y% etc. cigar today.

Can't speak for anyone else but if I lived in an alternate universe where I was single and Jessica Alba was kneeling etc... Pretty darn sure I would enjoy the experience more knowing it was her vs blind. Not that I wouldn't be lining up if there was a blind taste testing mind you. 

Blind taste testing of cigars is interesting but I think the stress of "thinking too much" detracts from the enjoyment and appreciation of the cigar. 

Mono Blend? No direct personal experience on the subject so not able to comment one way or the other. Of course no one else who has posted in this thread has any either. I did see Elvis last night and he said 99% of the blends are true to the lines it's just you need to wait a few years as the "young tannic harshness" masks brand identity.


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## DennisP (May 13, 2007)

hoax said:


> I can easily see how the mixing of cigar brands can happen, especially with the premium cigar lines.


I can definately see this. I know specifically of one big name producer for cigars in the US that has slapped on the wrong labels to get cigars out when he didn't have the correct labels around. They actually put them in the correct box, but with the wrong label, but most just look at the label.


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## DennisP (May 13, 2007)

carni said:


> I will also say when smoking a cigar I have been able to pick out the specific country of puros. So a cc being a puro may carry some of the same characteristics like a DR puro or NIC puro....you can recognize the puro origin similarity a mile away.


Uh oh, I hope moki doesn't see this.


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## Mbraud4 (Feb 17, 2006)

Da Klugs said:


> Many things go into the "taste experience". For me regarding cigars its a combination of 3 things. Cigars, Circumstance and Company. Best day of your life with your best friends = cigar, any cigar, tastes better. One of my best cigar memories is after the birth of our first child. Emergency C section. After Mom and new baby girl were safe and resting had a Hoyo Excalibur # 1 in the parking lot. No better tasting cigar will every touch my lips. Doesn't mean I buy and smoke them now. It was a time and circumstances kind of cigar memory never to be duplicated. It's all about achieving the highest degree of pleasure you can from the experience not comparing one component, in this case cigars and drawing conclusions based upon that. If that were really what it's all about there would be specifications on cigars regarding type of leaf combinations etc. I want an x% seco y% etc. cigar today.
> 
> Can't speak for anyone else but if I lived in an alternate universe where I was single and Jessica Alba was kneeling etc... Pretty darn sure I would enjoy the experience more knowing it was her vs blind.
> 
> ...


Nice Jessica Alba Theory! LOL


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## Munkey (Jan 14, 2008)

DennisP said:


> Uh oh, I hope moki doesn't see this.


:r I was thinking the same thing.


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## Sean9689 (Nov 9, 2005)

Da Klugs said:


> Many things go into the "taste experience". For me regarding cigars its a combination of 3 things. Cigars, Circumstance and Company. Best day of your life with your best friends = cigar, any cigar, tastes better. One of my best cigar memories is after the birth of our first child. Emergency C section. After Mom and new baby girl were safe and resting had a Hoyo Excalibur # 1 in the parking lot. No better tasting cigar will every touch my lips. Doesn't mean I buy and smoke them now. It was a time and circumstances kind of cigar memory never to be duplicated. It's all about achieving the highest degree of pleasure you can from the experience not comparing one component, in this case cigars and drawing conclusions based upon that. If that were really what it's all about there would be specifications on cigars regarding type of leaf combinations etc. I want an x% seco y% etc. cigar today.
> 
> Can't speak for anyone else but if I lived in an alternate universe where I was single and Jessica Alba was kneeling etc... Pretty darn sure I would enjoy the experience more knowing it was her vs blind. Not that I wouldn't be lining up if there was a blind taste testing mind you.
> 
> ...


:r 

Threads like this make my head hurt. But, posts like that make me glad I read these types of threads. It's like finding the surprise in the Cracker Jack box.


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## freakygar (Dec 13, 2007)

Da Klugs said:


> Can't speak for anyone else but if I lived in an alternate universe where I was single and Jessica Alba was kneeling etc... Pretty darn sure I would enjoy the experience more knowing it was her vs blind. Not that I wouldn't be lining up if there was a blind taste testing mind you.


Thanks for being here Dave, you make laugh, give me hope and simply amaze me with your reviews.
I just want to know hold old of a cigar you would be smoking at that moment in time with Ms. Alba?


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## DonJefe (Dec 1, 2003)

Da Klugs said:


> Many things go into the "taste experience". For me regarding cigars its a combination of 3 things. Cigars, Circumstance and Company. Best day of your life with your best friends = cigar, any cigar, tastes better. One of my best cigar memories is after the birth of our first child. Emergency C section. After Mom and new baby girl were safe and resting had a Hoyo Excalibur # 1 in the parking lot. No better tasting cigar will every touch my lips. Doesn't mean I buy and smoke them now. It was a time and circumstances kind of cigar memory never to be duplicated. It's all about achieving the highest degree of pleasure you can from the experience not comparing one component, in this case cigars and drawing conclusions based upon that. If that were really what it's all about there would be specifications on cigars regarding type of leaf combinations etc. I want an x% seco y% etc. cigar today.
> 
> Can't speak for anyone else but if I lived in an alternate universe where I was single and Jessica Alba was kneeling etc... Pretty darn sure I would enjoy the experience more knowing it was her vs blind. Not that I wouldn't be lining up if there was a blind taste testing mind you.
> 
> ...


I was wondering where he went when he left the house.:r You should write a book Dave!:tu


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

mash said:


> The problem is, you put this out there specifically to initiate/win an argument. We are supposed to seriously consider this very provocative/controversial post and lend the same credibility to your sources that you do, without knowing who they are. I suspect if anyone put forth an opposing view and named their sources, you would be convinced they weren't as in the know as yours. But of course, no one knows who your sources are. You're a stickler for evidence, so am I. This is so risky for the Cuban cigar industry that I am not prepared to accept it on hearsay.


That's fine -- as I stated, I put this thread out here to see if anyone had first-hand or credible second-hand knowledge of the issues I've stated. I'm hoping for less debate over the credibility of what I've stated, and more discussion from people who have seen it first-hand.

I posted the same thread in another forum, and received a number of comments in this vein, some of them first-hand experiences that mirror what I stated here.

That's what I'm more interested in; if you want to doubt the veracity of what I've stated, you're welcome to do so.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

carni said:


> Also, there are brand similarities and shared rolling factories....habanos website tells you that....but if your palate cant tell the difference between the a cohiba, montecristo, partagas, etc., I feel bad for you because tasting the suttle differences is the neaunce for any aficionado wine, cigars, beers etc. (i can taste a difference however do not have the full description of what i am tasting...never got "madagascar vanilla":tu)
> 
> I will also say when smoking a cigar I have been able to pick out the specific country of puros. So a cc being a puro may carry some of the same characteristics like a DR puro or NIC puro....you can recognize the puro origin similarity a mile away.


Really? Are you sure?. I mean, are you really sure? Are you as sure as can be? Maybe utterly sure? Or just pretty damn sure?

Maybe sure like these guys? Or perhaps like these guys? Or perhaps more like these:

"Expert" wine tasting: Round #1 -- Round #2 -- Round #3

"Expert" water tasting: Round #1 -- Round #2 -- Round #3

I'm willing to put together a group of 10 cigars, send the actual marca/origin information to a neutral third party, and make a friendly wager with you that you cannot get 7/10 correct. Deal?



> Besdies a "mono-blend" for long filler is impossible based on differences in ring gauge and length....you can not fill every sized cigar with one (mono) exact blend. IMHO


That's not what we're discussing here. We're discussing the same vitolas rolled using the same tobacco, and simply badged as being different marcas and boxed accordingly.


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

I can't see Cohiba and Partagas being confused, or anything from Cohiba as they use triple fermentated leaves. Same for Sir Winston.

Certainly there are some cigars that are swappable, but not all.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

mosesbotbol said:


> I can't see Cohiba and Partagas being confused, or anything from Cohiba as they use triple fermentated leaves. Same for Sir Winston.
> 
> Certainly there are some cigars that are swappable, but not all.


Absolutely agreed. But how many are, and what level of "mono-blending" is considered "okay" with people who are shelling out good money for what they think is a specific blend of cigar?


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## Hank (Feb 21, 2007)

Mono-Blending hmmm..... Monty No.2 and Diplomaticos No.2


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

moki said:


> Absolutely agreed. But how many are, and what level of "mono-blending" is considered "okay" with people who are shelling out good money for what they think is a specific blend of cigar?


This thread is rediculous.There are no mono blends. If you can't tell the difference in taste and aroma among different brands you have dull senses. There is a huge difference in blends even within the same brand. I smoked an 01 VR Classicos (londsdale) the other day. Mildest cigar in the line. Pretty simple and doesn't change much. I prefer the Familiar. Same ring guage, but a corona. Much stronger and more complex. Not even really similar to the Classicos. Some blends have similar tastes and are harder to discern when young, but come on.

Your entitled to your opinion that Cuban cigars aren't worth it and Padrons rule, but just because more than one diot says the same thing doesn't make it true.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

Fredster said:


> This thread is rediculous.There are no mono blends. If you can't tell the difference in taste and aroma among different brands you have dull senses. There is a huge difference in blends even within the same brand. I smoked an 01 VR Classicos (londsdale) the other day. Mildest cigar in the line. Pretty simple and doesn't change much. I prefer the Familiar. Same ring guage, but a corona. Much stronger and more complex. Not even really similar to the Classicos. Some blends have similar tastes and are harder to discern when young, but come on.


I think you mean "ridiculous" -- and I think your out of hand dismissal of the subject is unfortunate. Because there absolutely is something to this... it's a matter of the extent that it exists.

Again, I am not stating -- as the quoted article brazenly did -- that all of the cigars are the same blend. What I am stating is that a number of highly credible people have witnessed cigars being "mono-blended" and banded with different marca's bands, despite being the exact same blend.

This has primarily been witnessed in some of the outlying factories where there is less control over production, but to outright dismiss what I've stated here is unfortunately short-sighted.



> Your entitled to your opinion that Cuban cigars aren't worth it and Padrons rule, but just because more than one diot says the same thing doesn't make it true.


I do like Padróns... and I also absolutely love a number of Cuban marcas. I also do not like a number of Cuban marcas as well... Trinidads I find ridiculously overpriced and boring, Punch is a brand I could forget exists, and Montecristos are so inconsistent that I don't even bother with them anymore.

I do not, however, drink the koolaid and believe that everything out of Cuba is somehow inherently superior. Given the quality control issues and inconsistencies, this is a dubious claim at best, and yet some still make it.

However there are a number of Cuban brands that I find fantastic, and unique in taste profile, such that it's obvious that there is not a "mono-blend" across all cigar marcas. That's not what has been claimed.

As an aside, the "idiot" you are apparently insulting knows more about cigars than you or I ever will... and it's not singular, it's plural. I would not make the statements I have made lightly, believe me when I say that the sources of information are credible.

BTW, Fredster, I would absolutely love to have you in on a blind taste test as well, since you claim to be adroit at distinguishing not just country of origin, but also cigar brands. It'd be interested to see how many you'd get right in terms of picking Cuban vs. Non-Cuban, and naming the marcas from a taste test I assemble. What do you say? I can whip up a blind taste test for you and Carni. 7/10 right in terms of country of origin would be the target goal. Deal?


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## mash (Jul 24, 2007)

As consumers, we want to think we're getting what we've paid for, so this thread has gotten some traction. Problem is, there is no evidence in the article you quote, nor in anything you've said since. You trot out people you know who are experts and insiders to buttress your claim, but you say that you are too noble to identify them just to "win an argument". This is disingenuous and frankly arrogant. 
It is equally disingenuous to quote what someone else says, say they provide no evidence, but run with what they say. It's an old political trick. Fair enough to say you're looking for opinions from people with first hand knowledge, not sure you're going to find a lot of Cuban factory rollers posting here, I'm concerned this is just going to look like innuendo and supposition.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

mash said:


> As consumers, we want to think we're getting what we've paid for, so this thread has gotten some traction. Problem is, there is no evidence in the article you quote, nor in anything you've said since. You trot out people you know who are experts and insiders to buttress your claim, but you say that you are too noble to identify them just to "win an argument". This is disingenuous and frankly arrogant.


Well, it's unfortunate that you'd say that. Those who know me are quite aware that I would not make up facetious claims, and that I do know quite a few people in the cigar industry. Draw your own conclusions.

I'm sorry if you find my opaque references to be disingenuous or arrogant, but they are going to have to stay that way.



> It is equally disingenuous to quote what someone else says, say they provide no evidence, but run with what they say. It's an old political trick. Fair enough to say you're looking for opinions from people with first hand knowledge, not sure you're going to find a lot of Cuban factory rollers posting here, I'm concerned this is just going to look like innuendo and supposition.


The fact that a number of people have seen this with their own eyes should at least make it an interesting topic to pursue.

Interesting that you should mention Cuban factory rollers, though.


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## SR Mike (Feb 4, 2008)

If it is possible to get boxes of multiple brands that are rolled in one factory, all from the same day, and all the same size; the results of a blind test would be interesting to say the least.


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## Boston_Dude05 (Oct 10, 2006)

Yes, I'd say bring on the blind taste test. Will be interesting to observe. One confounding fact that might refute the monoblend theory is that CA runs its Top 25 cigars of the year blinded. Yet somehow CCs almost always finish near the top. The tasting notes from those tests are usually quite different. This would be a seemingly objective way to dispute the fact that there are monoblends because if CCs were monoblended then the tasting notes would be different. That being said, I don't doubt that there could some some instances of mixing blends just out of convenience or sloppiness. Different brands are made in the same factory and there could be crossover. Overall though I'm a skeptic that most CCs are monoblended. The consumers would have picked up on that. We're not that dumb I hope. However, I do agree some NC manufacturers like Padron put most CCs to shame on quality control and consistency.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

Boston_Dude05 said:


> Yes, I'd say bring on the blind taste test. Will be interesting to observe. One confounding fact that might refute the monoblend theory is that CA runs its Top 25 cigars of the year blinded. Yet somehow CCs almost always finish near the top. The tasting notes from those tests are usually quite different. This would be a seemingly objective way to dispute the fact that there are monoblends because if CCs were monoblended then the tasting notes would be different. That being said, I don't doubt that there could some some instances of mixing blends just out of convenience or sloppiness. Different brands are made in the same factory and there could be crossover. Overall though I'm a skeptic that most CCs are monoblended. The consumers would have picked up on that. We're not that dumb I hope. However, I do agree some NC manufacturers like Padron put most CCs to shame on quality control and consistency.


I definitely agree with you that _most_ Cuban cigars are not mono-blended. To think otherwise would be a bit on the ridiculous side of things.

However, I do think, though, that it has been done on a systematic basis in Cuba at some factories. Who knows, perhaps they were just out of specific blend tobacco, and had to meet quota. Again, the question is the extent.


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## TheDirector (Nov 22, 2006)

Da Klugs said:


> :r Smoke the 1492. Maybe it's really a Dark Siglo II.


:r:r:r


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## PadronMe (Apr 26, 2005)

Fredster said:


> Cuban cigars aren't worth it and Padrons rule


Padrons are good.:tu


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## DennisP (May 13, 2007)

It seems to me some people are exaggerating what moki is trying to say. He is in no way saying all cigars are the same or even that two marcas are exactly the same. He is saying that in some instances a bunch of robustos (or whatever common size you want to use) are rolled and sorted by looks to receive different labels and a few smaller outlying factories. I think those that have smoked a number of CCs understands the inconsistencies, my greatest experience with this is with the Montes. 

It seems that some have opinions so high of Cubans they don't want to hear anything negative about them. If this is happening with 10% of the cigars coming out of Cuba and you smoke 12-15 different vitolas from 3-5 different marcas there is a good chance you are not even smoking two mono-blended cigars.

And please, don't try and doubt moki's knowledge of the industry. From the short time I've been around he seems to me one of the most knowledgeable as well as one of the most "connected" around here. I don't think he'd be making these claims up.


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## RobinCoppell (Apr 7, 2007)

I think that some tobacco tastes the same from some regions. I'm a huge Padron fan because I like Nic tobacco and a huge fan of the Anejos and Hemingway maduros. Even if a Cuban cigar was mono-blended I think the tobacco can more than stand on it's own. With that said I've had some aged Padron 2000 maduros I like better than 1964/1926.


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## Thurm15 (Jan 28, 2005)

I'm sure this "Mono-Blending" happens but, I personally could care less. I just smoke and enjoy and try not to worry about the little things.:2


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## gnukfu (Dec 19, 2007)

In a manufacturing environment if quality control is lax and production pressures are high "shortcuts" will be taken to meet production because it keeps "the heat off" if product is going out the door (until the customer finds out and complains). I've seen it in my 30 years of working in and visiting/auditing various aerospace manufacturers around the world and it wouldn't surprise me if the same situation exists in making cigars.


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## Blueface (May 28, 2005)

moki said:


> However, I do think, though, that it has been done on a systematic basis in Cuba at some factories. Who knows, perhaps they were just out of specific blend tobacco, and had to meet quota. Again, the question is the extent.


Interesting thread and debates on both sides of the fence.
I don't have such a refined ability to distinguish some from others and can't add any value in that regard. However, I have been fortunate to have hung out with some individuals from Cuba whose cigars are cherished by many on this board, such as Pepin, 601, Padron, La Gloria Cubana and many others. All were very sincere. Lets just say this subject did come up so from my perspective, there is some validity to the discussion.


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## carni (Jan 18, 2007)

moki said:


> I'm willing to put together a group of 10 cigars, send the actual marca/origin information to a neutral third party, and make a friendly wager with you that you cannot get 7/10 correct. Deal?
> 
> That's not what we're discussing here. We're discussing the same vitolas rolled using the same tobacco, and simply badged as being different marcas and boxed accordingly.




a blind tasting would be fun, but 10 cigars would take me a 3-4 weeks. 5 or 3 would be for a better turnaround.

i am not by any means as qualified as some of the gorillas roaming around, but I can not imagine exact cigars with different labels not getting called out.

also wine is a different world from cigars. I dont see any other climates or regions growing puro cigar quality tobacco like grapes/wines grown all over the world, producing great wines. good puros are very limited to their latitude and longitude.


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## Airborne RU (Oct 7, 2006)

Alright guys lets return to some civility here.

Moki (great site by the way) may be guilty of pushing some buttons, however he shouldn't be "punished" for bringing up a controversial thread.

I tend to believe that his theory is all washed up because it has the halmarks of an urban legend and it is something that can't be proven by your average lay person.

So essentially he is saying what the Simpson's episode "Duffless" has said (that Duff, Duff Light, and Duff Dry all come from the same pipe).


However it is an entertaining thread.


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## j6ppc (Jun 5, 2006)

The different marcas taste discernibly different to me anyway.
This topic seems to come 'round frequently.


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## SilverFox (Feb 19, 2008)

Having read through this thread I have to say I found the information from both sides to be very interesting. Lots of well thought out posts, a lot of supposition and a lot of belief but not really any facts. Now don't get me wrong I am not leaning one way or the other, both sides had compelling arguments and opinions. I would sway back and forth depending on the post I was reading. In all I don't believe that I have experienced mono blending in my smokes but that won't say that it doesn't exist. Just that I don't believe I have experienced it. I am a big fan of Robusto's my current smokes include Romeo y Julietta short churchills, Hoyo de Monterrey Petit Robusto, Hoyo de Monterrey Epicure #2, Romeo y Julietta Petie Piramide Edicion Limitada 2005, Partaga Serie D No. 4............now I won't tell you for a second that I could identify them in a blind taste but I will say this, I find them all to be different tastes and smoking profiles and enjoy them all.

In the long run I guess I would ask does it matter.

My theory is this................do you like what you smoke? Can you afford what you smoke? Do you think that what you smoke is different to you than a different cigar? In the end isn't that all that really matters.

An acquaintance of mine had my wife and I over to his house for dinner one night and he has a wine cellar with over 3,000 bottles in it. We where having a tasting before dinner and he brought out a $300 Pinot Grigio for us to try, there where 3 other couples there, as we all tried he asked us what we thought, all the people where ooooooh aaaaaah this is magnificent what a wonderful wine. I said nothing at the time, he asked me directly I said to him...........I have to say I don't really like it ............I got astonished looks from around the room. His comment to me was simple.

He said and I paraphrase, Shawn, I am not sure if everyone in this room is as honest as you just where, do you know how to tell a good bottle of wine. To which I replied no I don't, I just know what I like and don't like. He said to me then you completely understand how to tell a good bottle of wine.

Long winded, indirect, and maybe a bit off topic. In a round about way I am saying, if they blend them I don't care, I can't tell, I think what I smoke is great and I think I can tell difference in each that keeps me coming back to them for various reasons, if they are all coming off the same rollers table, makes no difference to me I am paying what I am willing to and enjoying each and every one.

Great thread though, I should have lit a cigar before starting it.

:ss


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## icehog3 (Feb 20, 2005)

I have enjoyed this thread immensely. I have no knowledge or connections to have an informed opinion on this either way, so I won't even venture a guess as to whether this is fact, fiction, or somewhere in between.

I have great respect for moki, he has likely forgotten more about cigars than I will ever know. That being said, my only problem with his posts in this thread are this: What if another knowledgable member said "I have sources in Cuba who enter the rolling rooms in the factories, and they tell me that the mono-blend theory isn't true...but I can't divulge my sources", wouldn't this have as much weight as having undivulgable sources who say it is true? 

Again, my disclaimer that I have no such sources and no true knowledge of the truth, I just have a slightly cynical nature that isn't willing to take the word of undivulgable sources as the gospel.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

carni said:


> also wine is a different world from cigars. I dont see any other climates or regions growing puro cigar quality tobacco like grapes/wines grown all over the world, producing great wines. good puros are very limited to their latitude and longitude.


Not exactly. The exact same discussion that we're having about Cuban tobacco, the soil, the climate, etc. was had in the wine world regarding French wines not too many years ago.

It may be difficult to comprehend now, in a world where there are fantastic wines from all over, but not too many years ago, French wines were "the shit". They still are to an extent, for the higher-end vintages, but that too is fading.

Terroir is still a factor... largely to protect their "brand", the only place champagnes can come from is the Champagne region in France. The only place cognacs can come from is the Cognac region in France. The only place armagnacs can come from is the Armagnac region, etc, etc.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

icehog3 said:


> I have great respect for moki, he has likely forgotten more about cigars than I will ever know. That being said, my only problem with his posts in this thread are this: What if another knowledgable member said "I have sources in Cuba who enter the rolling rooms in the factories, and they tell me that the mono-blend theory isn't true...but I can't divulge my sources", wouldn't this have as much weight as having undivulgable sources who say it is true?


All true, and a fine point you make. I'll drop trying to convince anyone of the veracity of what I've stated (though I do resolutely stand by it, and it is not a case of hearing it from "some dude on the Internet"  ).

So has anyone else heard or seen first-hand the type of thing that I've been discussing?


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## icehog3 (Feb 20, 2005)

moki said:


> All true, and a fine point you make. I'll drop trying to convince anyone of the veracity of what I've stated (though I do resolutely stand by it).
> 
> So has anyone else heard or seen first-hand the type of thing that I've been discussing?


No need to try moki, as I said, you have forgotten more about cigars than I will ever know. I respect your opinions, and truly believe you speak from the heart.


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## croatan (Mar 23, 2005)

moki said:


> So has anyone else heard or seen first-hand the type of thing that I've been discussing?


Yes. A very close friend, the most trustworthy and well-informed person I know, who used to roll at Briones Montoto, has told me he saw such things in or around 2001-2002. Not widespread nor, in my opinion, all that surprising. We say "hey, it's Cuba" all the time. Months are misspelled, bands applied incorrectly, seals/stickers not uniform, improperly rolled cigars, etc. Why should it be startling that, on occasion, a batch of marevas winds up in the boxes of two different marcas?

That being said, I have a pretty good record in picking marca/vitola/vintage in blind tastings, believe I can typically pinpoint different flavors in different marcas, and would never subscribe to a "mono-blending" theory--and certainly not to one in place prior to '01. Also, as I understand it, quality control is much improved now, so this shouldn't be much of an issue gong forward. So, while it wouldn't surprise me too terribly much to hear about a box of '02 Sancho Panza Non-Pluses that tasted a whole lot like JL PCs, I personally think that worrying about such things is akin to making a mountain out of a molehill.

For me, it comes down to this: Do I believe that the Cubans have, in the past, filled boxes of multiple marcas with cigars from the same batch? Sure. Do I lose any sleep about it? Not a wink.


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

croatan said:


> Yes. A very close friend, the most trustworthy and well-informed person I know, who used to roll at Briones Montoto, has told me he saw such things in or around 2001-2002. Not widespread nor, in my opinion, all that surprising. We say "hey, it's Cuba" all the time. Months are misspelled, bands applied incorrectly, seals/stickers not uniform, improperly rolled cigars, etc. Why should it be startling that, on occasion, a batch of marevas winds up in the boxes of two different marcas?
> 
> That being said, I have a pretty good record in picking marca/vitola/vintage in blind tastings, believe I can typically pinpoint different flavors in different marcas, and would never subscribe to a "mono-blending" theory--and certainly not to one in place prior to '01. Also, as I understand it, quality control is much improved now, so this shouldn't be much of an issue gong forward. So, while it wouldn't surprise me too terribly much to hear about a box of '02 Sancho Panza Non-Pluses that tasted a whole lot like JL PCs, I personally think that worrying about such things is akin to making a mountain out of a molehill.
> 
> For me, it comes down to this: Do I believe that the Cubans have, in the past, filled boxes of multiple marcas with cigars from the same batch? Sure. Do I lose any sleep about it? Not a wink.


What your saying here makes sense James. There is no widespread conspiracy in Cuba to roll different brands with one blend and put them in different brand boxes. Just complete nonsense. Mistakes are made and I'm sure it has happened. It could have even been done before intentionally by some pissed off factory worker making a few cents a day.

I can say I have never recieved a box of cigars that tasted exactly the same as a different brand. I have had cigars that tasted completely wrong and just crappy before. No doubt the blend was totally screwed up. This is a quality issue and it doesn't happen that much. I'm not guessing on how much this happens, I'm basing it on smoking 1-3 Cuban cigars a day for close to 12 years now. I'm not an expert, but I trust my palate 100%. I'll put up with this inconsistancy though because when they are on Cuban cigars have no rival IMO. I've never had a Padron, Opus, or any NC cigar I'd put in the same category as the best Cubans.

I too can pick out different brands blind as long as it's a cigar I'm familiar with. I probably have 200 or more singles in my humi along with over 100 boxes. Lots of times cigars are unbanded and I forget what they were. I can always tell without a doubt what it was after smoking it. If you have smoked hundreds of the same cigar it's not suprising or difficult. I don't do blind tastings intentionally. To me that is thinking too much. I don't approach cigars cererbal like that. It's for enjoyment. It's not fun for me to over analayze cigars.


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## carni (Jan 18, 2007)

moki said:


> It may be difficult to comprehend now, in a world where there are fantastic wines from all over, but not too many years ago, French wines were "the shit". They still are to an extent, for the higher-end vintages, but that too is fading..


I see your point and understand that cc quality control has not been number one. My point is when you are talking about puro cigars, currently there are only a hand full of countries that can produce quality long filler puros.


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## NCRadioMan (Feb 28, 2005)

Fredster said:


> I've never had a Padron, Opus, or any NC cigar I'd put in the same category as the best Cubans.


I'm not sure what you mean by the best cubans Fred, but this got me to thinking. Yes, that can be dangerous. I would consider the best cubans the extremely limited cigars, special edition humidors/jars, long discontinued and true vintage. Example: 60's, 70's, 80's, 1492, Dunhills, Davidoffs, etc.

Since most folks will never get to try the best cubans, or even reg. porduction cubans, because they have not the source, or much less, the means to obtain them, could this article be put out to set the general smokers mind at ease? Something like, don't worry that you can't have cuban cigars, they're not that good anyway. Afterall, that is something you hear often here in the US.

Yes, I have my tin foil hat on!! :tu


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

NCRadioMan said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by the best cubans Fred, but this got me to thinking. Yes, that can be dangerous. I would consider the best cubans the extremely limited cigars, special edition humidors/jars, long discontinued and true vintage. Example: 60's, 70's, 80's, 1492, Dunhills, Davidoffs, etc.
> 
> Since most folks will never get to try the best cubans, or even reg. porduction cubans, because they have not the source, or much less, the means to obtain them, could this article be put out to set the general smokers mind at ease? Something like, don't worry that you can't have cuban cigars, they're not that good anyway. Afterall, that is something you hear often here in the US.
> 
> Yes, I have my tin foil hat on!! :tu


Sorry should have been more specific. No I didn't mean necessarily Dunhills, Davidoffs, etc. I just meant some of my personal favs that are on, have no NC rival IMO. Some of my current favs include mature (5-10 years)Upmann: Sir Winston, #2, Cohiba: Coronas Especials, RA: Gigantis. What I mean by "on" is the blend is right, they have enough age (and are not sick), and construction is good. Cuban cigars are not as consistant as NC. The 06 and 07 cigars are very close though IMO.

I have yet to have any NC cigar really impress me or make me think it was worth the $$$. I have a locker at a local B&M. It's accross the street from my office so it's a convenient smoking place for me besides at my house. I go there at lunch a lot.

Anyways the owner is a nice guy. I give him a lot of Cuban cigars. He smoked his first Cuban from me. 2007 Boli RC. Loved it. Prior to that he had been given a lot of fakes in the past. The other day he handed me a Padron that got voted best cigar of the year for 07. It got a 97 I think from C/A. C/A's ratings are a joke, but thats a different topic. I think recently they rated a Dunhill Malecon from 1978 a 94, but the fresh Padron gets a 97? Is there another person anywhere that has smoked both cigars and agrees with this? Anyways I smoked this 20.00 cigar and sat there thinking I'm glad I didn't pay for this. It was decent. Nothing exciting about the aroma or taste. med-bodied and not complex at all. I would have given it a 88-90 maybe and can think of a dozen Cuban cigars I could have smoked for 8.00-10.00 that would have blown it away.

Not saying my tastes are the only ones that are right. Just letting you know where I'm coming from.

As far as the article, complete BS IMO. It's another stupid Cubans aren't really that good article like you said. I wonder who the sponsor of the mag is? NC cigar makers or NC merchants? Certainly not from someone associated with Habanos or with a neutral viewpoint. He can say he has friends that have witnessed this, whatever. I have over a dozen friends that have been there and never seen it. The biggest thing to me is I've been smoking Cubans daily over a decade and believe what I have experienced not what someone has suggested.

As Croaton said, as many cigars as they produce and the known inconsistancies, I'm sure it has happened. Not standard practice and not even something I care one bit about.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

Fredster said:


> Sorry should have been more specific. No I didn't mean necessarily Dunhills, Davidoffs, etc. I just meant some of my personal favs that are on, have no NC rival IMO. Some of my current favs include mature (5-10 years)Upmann: Sir Winston, #2, Cohiba: Coronas Especials, RA: Gigantis. What I mean by "on" is the blend is right, they have enough age (and are not sick), and construction is good. Cuban cigars are not as consistant as NC. The 06 and 07 cigars are very close though IMO.
> 
> I have yet to have any NC cigar really impress me or make me think it was worth the $$$. I have a locker at a local B&M. It's accross the street from my office so it's a convenient smoking place for me besides at my house. I go there at lunch a lot.


Awesome, this is perfect territory for a blind taste test. You claim you don't really like any "NC cigars", and you claim you will not only know a Cuban cigar when you smoke it, but can also distinguish easily between marca taste profiles.

Let's do a blind taste test... I will send you 10 unbanded cigars, I will send a list of what they really are to a neutral third party, and then you will smoke and review them, giving them a rating, identifying the country of origin, and identifying the marca.

5/10 right is a random coinflip, so we'll make the baseline that you must get 7/10 correct for it to be meaningful.... and we can have a little wager on whether you reach that watermark or not. $100 can be the wager... sound good?

I have the cigars ready to go -- just tell me you'll participate, and we'll have "The Great Fredster Blind Taste Test"!!

What do ya say?


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## Sean9689 (Nov 9, 2005)

moki said:


> Awesome, this is perfect territory for a blind taste test. You claim you don't really like any "NC cigars", and you claim you will not only know a Cuban cigar when you smoke it, but can also distinguish easily between marca taste profiles.
> 
> Let's do a blind taste test... I will send you 10 unbanded cigars, I will send a list of what they really are to a neutral third party, and then you will smoke and review them, giving them a rating, identifying the country of origin, and identifying the marca.
> 
> ...


A coinflip? If he's guessing the country of origin and marca, it's not a coin flip. I didn't know only two countries produce cigars, and from that, only one marca between the two? Wow, you learn something new every single day.


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## DennisP (May 13, 2007)

Sean9689 said:


> A coinflip? If he's guessing the country of origin and marca, it's not a coin flip. I didn't know only two countries that produce only one marca per country? Wow...news to me.


If this is similar to his previous blind tests he's only judging how correct based on Cuban vs. Non-Cuban.


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## Sean9689 (Nov 9, 2005)

DennisP said:


> If this is similar to his previous blind tests he's only judging how correct based on Cuban vs. Non-Cuban.


Here's what he said:



moki said:


> Let's do a blind taste test... I will send you 10 unbanded cigars, I will send a list of what they really are to a neutral third party, and then you will smoke and review them, giving them a rating, identifying the country of origin, and identifying the marca.


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## Da Klugs (Jan 8, 2005)

A question Andrew. Do you exhale part of a draw out your nose when you smoke? If you do not it might explain much of the confusion on this issue as I tend to agree with your position when this is smoking technique.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

Sean9689 said:


> A coinflip? If he's guessing the country of origin and marca, it's not a coin flip. I didn't know only two countries produce cigars, and from that, only one marca between the two? Wow, you learn something new every single day.


All he needs to get 7/10 right on is the country of origin. That's it. So yes, 5/10 would be a coinflip.

Of course since he can also pick out different marcas by taste, I'd expect him to list those as well, but they won't count against the wager.


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## icehog3 (Feb 20, 2005)

moki said:


> Let's do a blind taste test... I will send you 10 unbanded cigars, I will send a list of what they really are to a neutral third party, and then you will smoke and review them, giving them a rating, identifying the country of origin, and identifying the marca.


I don't think that identifying the country and marca would be realistic for Non-cuban cigars, as Fred does not smoke them, and certainly couldn't be expected to know the difference bwtween, say, Nicarauguan marcas. I thionk the Cuban or Non-Cuban, and identifying the marca if he believes the cigar to be Cuban, to be much more realistic.


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## Da Klugs (Jan 8, 2005)

moki said:


> All he needs to get 7/10 right on is the country of origin. That's it. So yes, 5/10 would be a coinflip.
> 
> Of course since he can also pick out different marcas by taste, I'd expect him to list those as well, but they won't count against the wager.


I think the point he is making Andrew is that it's not a coin flip picking the country of origin cigar by cigar. Now if you want to categorize Cuban vs non-cuban as the bet.. then that is a fair coin flip. Otherwise its a stacked deck. Your dealing with pretty much a 100% Cuban smoker in Fred so still an interesting bet.

You never answered my question... do you typically do a partial nose exhale when you smoke?


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## DennisP (May 13, 2007)

Da Klugs said:


> Now if you want to categorize Cuban vs non-cuban as the bet.. then that is a fair coin flip.


That is the bet.


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## Da Klugs (Jan 8, 2005)

moki said:


> All he needs to get 7/10 right on is the country of origin. That's it. So yes, 5/10 would be a coinflip.
> 
> Of course since he can also pick out different marcas by taste, I'd expect him to list those as well, but they won't count against the wager.





DennisP said:


> That is the bet.


Not yet. So far it's a speciific country... Cuba, Mexico, US, Nicaragua, Canary Islands, Dominican Republic, Honduras, Spain, etc, etc. More like a 1 in 10+ random chance of being right.

The point of the old argument is that Cuban cigar smokers think they can identify Cuban vs Non Cuban cigars by taste. Andrew wants to use a blind test to test that theory. It's a cool idea if kept that simple. Adding Marca and specific country as FYI's might be fun but don't address the essence of the argument, just stack the deck a bit on the bet.


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## DennisP (May 13, 2007)

Da Klugs said:


> Not yet. So far it's a speciific country... Cuba, Mexico, US, Nicaragua, Canary Islands, Dominican Republic, Honduras, Spain, etc, etc. More like a 1 in 10+ random chance of being right.
> 
> The point of the old argument is that Cuban cigar smokers think they can identify Cuban cigars by taste. Andrew wants to use a blind test to test that theory. It's a cool idea if kept that simple. Adding Marca and specific country as FYI's might be fun but don't address the essence of the argument, just stack the deck a bit on the bet.


OK, I'd be willing to bet that that is what moki means. I've followed to of his blind tests like this before and that was the goal for both, I think he just overlooked putting that exact detail.


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## Da Klugs (Jan 8, 2005)

DennisP said:


> OK, I'd be willing to bet that that is what moki means. I've followed to of his blind tests like this before and that was the goal for both, I think he just overlooked putting that exact detail.


Maybe! I'm sure he'll pipe up here in a bit. Still curious if he uses the nose exhale. I smoked a Fuente 77 shark today and put some thoughts related to this in the review thread Andrew started back in 04.


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## icehog3 (Feb 20, 2005)

DennisP said:


> OK, I'd be willing to bet that that is what moki means. I've followed to of his blind tests like this before and that was the goal for both, I think he just overlooked putting that exact detail.


Yes, I'd actually like to see the clarificiation straight from moki, Dennis, no offense.


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## Brandon (Dec 11, 1997)

Has this been opened up to CigarFamily people as well?


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

Da Klugs said:


> I think the point he is making Andrew is that it's not a coin flip picking the country of origin cigar by cigar. Now if you want to categorize Cuban vs non-cuban as the bet.. then that is a fair coin flip. Otherwise its a stacked deck. Your dealing with pretty much a 100% Cuban smoker in Fred so still an interesting bet.


That's exactly what the wager is. He has exactly two choices per cigar: Cuban or non-Cuban. This is a coin-flip situation, random noise would get you 5/10... thus my requirement that he get 7/10 correct (which is actually being very generous, you only need to get 2 above random noise).

I hope this clarifies the wager; I only added the "marca" guessing on because he said he can easily do it; it would be expected in the review, but would not count against the wager.

Claro?



> You never answered my question... do you typically do a partial nose exhale when you smoke?


Sometimes yes, sometimes no.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

Da Klugs said:


> Not yet. So far it's a speciific country... Cuba, Mexico, US, Nicaragua, Canary Islands, Dominican Republic, Honduras, Spain, etc, etc. More like a 1 in 10+ random chance of being right.
> 
> The point of the old argument is that Cuban cigar smokers think they can identify Cuban vs Non Cuban cigars by taste. Andrew wants to use a blind test to test that theory. It's a cool idea if kept that simple. Adding Marca and specific country as FYI's might be fun but don't address the essence of the argument, just stack the deck a bit on the bet.


Guys... I never said he has to guess the specific country. I can only surmise that you haven't read any of the other blind taste tests that I've done. I would not say something is a coin-flip if it were not... give me some credit. 

Once again, all that will count against the wager is Cuban or non-Cuban.

He will also be required to guess at the actual country of origin, as well as the marca, but this does not affect the wager at all, and is merely informational (because he said he can easily distinguish between marcas).

Claro?


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

I started a new thread with the specifics of the Fredster taste test challenge... so that we don't get this thread too far off-topic.


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## Da Klugs (Jan 8, 2005)

Brandon said:


> Has this been opened up to CigarFamily people as well?


Now here is a smoker I would love the see in the contest. I'll play if you will Brandon.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

Brandon said:


> Has this been opened up to CigarFamily people as well?


Nope, but I'm doing a mass taste testing on CigarPass right now:

http://www.cigarpass.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=42677

...just sent out the packages to all 10 participants today, in fact. Brandon, I would love to have you and a number of other folks from CF involved in a blind taste testing.

My plan is that after the mass one on CP is done, I will do a similar group blind taste test on CF. Your spot is guaranteed!


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## D. Generate (Jul 1, 2004)

I know I would fail a blind taste test in spectacular form. Having said that, I smoke a variety of habanos, certainly not as wide as some Gorillas here, but it's respectable. I also think that each does offer a different profile to my tastebuds. 

I don't have any good facts to contribute, just my personal analogy. I enjoy the cigars a great deal. As long as they continue to roll them on the thighs of virgins, I'll be happy.


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## JCK (Nov 9, 2006)

Interesting discussion. I stopped reading after the 4th page or so, because most of the comments seem to recycle. It did get me wondering.

Andrew, without revealing your source, can you reveal the Factories that are in question?

An interesting experiment would be to check box codes for a certain year of said factory and pool together a selected vitola and have someone test to see if they all taste the same.


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

khubli said:


> An interesting experiment would be to check box codes for a certain year of said factory and pool together a selected vitola and have someone test to see if they all taste the same.


Do cigars get stamped as soon as their boxed, or at another point? Does two identical box codes really assume they were actually rolled at a specific point and time?


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## the nub (Mar 24, 2006)

moki said:


> I'm aware of everything you mentioned in your post... but it is not relevant. I say that because what I've been told was witnessed was cigar rollers rolling a particular vitola, then all of that vitola being laid out on a table to be inspected for quality. All of the cigars were together on the table, no way to distinguish between them... and then _based on wrapper color_ different marca bands were applied, and the cigars were boxed in different marca boxes.


I'm not an expert but I have been to Romeo y Julieta. The problem with this theory of described events is this. The days allotment of cigars are not color sorted on the same day. First of all they are inspected then fumigated, then taken to another room and allowed to rest for a given period, sometimes days, sometimes weeks. Enough time that they reach optimal moisture content. That's why most counterfeits have sloppily arranged bands within the box. The cigars have not had enough time to rest before being banded. The cigars shrink and the bands become loose.

Color sorting is done after the cigars have rested. The sorting table has stacks of boxes with all the same boxes. They don't have stacks of Monte and RyJ and Cohiba, etc. at least from what I saw.

For the scenario you describe, your source would have to witness the collection of the roller's production, follow it to inspection, then to fumigation and _escaparate_ (for several days, if not weeks) then color sorting and then see a different stacks of boxes on the _envasador's_ table, and then finally follow those boxes to the area where they apply the bands. The sequence of events you were told simply don't happen that way.


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

thenub said:


> I'm not an expert but I have been to Romeo y Julieta. The problem with this theory of described events is this. The days allotment of cigars are not color sorted on the same day. First of all they are inspected then fumigated, then taken to another room and allowed to rest for a given period, sometimes days, sometimes weeks. Enough time that they reach optimal moisture content. That's why most counterfeits have sloppily arranged bands within the box. The cigars have not had enough time to rest before being banded. The cigars shrink and the bands become loose.
> 
> Color sorting is done after the cigars have rested. The sorting table has stacks of boxes with all the same boxes. They don't have stacks of Monte and RyJ and Cohiba, etc. at least from what I saw.
> 
> For the scenario you describe, your source would have to witness the collection of the roller's production, follow it to inspection, then to fumigation and _escaparate_ (for several days, if not weeks) then color sorting and then see a different stacks of boxes on the _envasador's_ table, and then finally follow those boxes to the area where they apply the bands. The sequence of events you were told simply don't happen that way.


Good to hear someone chime in with intimate knowledge of how the process is done. I love Cuban cigars, but I don't get into the techhnical apsect as much as others. This backs up what what common sense and over 10 years of smoking has already told me, that this "mono-blend" thing is BS.


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

thenub said:


> I'm not an expert but I have been to Romeo y Julieta. The problem with this theory of described events is this. The days allotment of cigars are not color sorted on the same day. First of all they are inspected then fumigated, then taken to another room and allowed to rest for a given period, sometimes days, sometimes weeks. Enough time that they reach optimal moisture content. That's why most counterfeits have sloppily arranged bands within the box. The cigars have not had enough time to rest before being banded. The cigars shrink and the bands become loose.
> 
> Color sorting is done after the cigars have rested. The sorting table has stacks of boxes with all the same boxes. They don't have stacks of Monte and RyJ and Cohiba, etc. at least from what I saw.
> 
> For the scenario you describe, your source would have to witness the collection of the roller's production, follow it to inspection, then to fumigation and _escaparate_ (for several days, if not weeks) then color sorting and then see a different stacks of boxes on the _envasador's_ table, and then finally follow those boxes to the area where they apply the bands. The sequence of events you were told simply don't happen that way.


I agree with you that this is the typical scenario that I've seen at cigar factories that I have visited. It generally goes like this:

1) The cigars are rolled from allotments of tobacco that the torcedor is given. Typically only one marca blend is rolled on a given day

2) The daily production goes to a table or area where they are inspected for quality, and cigars not meeting this standard are discarded

3) Then the cigars are usually aged for some time (though this timeframe varies)

4) Then the cigars are inspected again for quality, and color sorted

5) Finally the cigars are banded and boxed

...but as they say... things don't always go the way they are supposed to, especially when there are quotas to meet.

The only difference in my experience is that the tobacco is fumigated before ever being given to the rollers, because it would not be particularly effective if done to a final rolled product.


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