# A Little Discretion -- PLEASE READ!!



## MoTheMan

I've been following quiet a few threads in the Habanos lounge lately. 

I congratulate the all the brothers & sisters on all their newly acquired Habano acquisitions. Welcome to the darker side (LOL) of the slipery slope, I remember my early Havana acquisitions as well.

BUT, we may need to become much more discreet, at least for the next few weeks & months.

Here's what's got me worried. Every day I'm seeing 2 or 3 new threads about box purchases, many persented with pictures. All good. BUT, this is going on EVERYDAY and I fear that it's ony a small matter of time before we start attracting unwanted attention, I'm talking about the OFAC and US Customs. I've been watching these threads go up and everyday I worry that we maybe attracting unwanted attention.

Club Stogie is a BIG discussion board, we're an easy target because of the number of the sheer number of members here. We could readily attract unwanted scrutiny that could hurt or cause a lot of grief to a lot of members.

A couple of stories to illustrate. Back in Christmas '04 some nimrod of a newbie on another board (CW), in all his enthusiasm, blabbered very openly about EXACTLY how he was acquiring Havanas from overseas & getting them shipped right to his house in the US. Well, needless to say, that havana merchant was nearly out of business for three months as everything he was sending to the US qwas getting seized. On top of that, another two merchants had to slow their shipping quantities as well till this blew over.
Now, it didn't all end there. Here's the second part of the story: The letters from the Office Foreingn Asset Control (OFAC). Here we are a couple of years later and all of a sudden it seems that the justice department is just getting started. Beginning sometime late last October ('06), many Havanophiles I know who were buying cuban cigars around that time (X-mas '04) started receiving letters from the OFAC requesting (no, demanding) an explanation of transactions appearing on their bank statements around 12/04.

No CHIT! This is serious stuff. I know dozens of brothers & sisters who are sweating it out waiting to see what happens next. Not a good thing to have.

.
.
.

So, in order to pervent a potential problem, I'll be scrutinizing posts in the Havana Lounge more closely for the next few months. I'll be doing some editing and deleting pictures if necessary. Honestly, I just want to keep things low key. Don't ask, don't tell is a good philosophy to live by.



Now, I'l apologize in advance if I'm ruffling people's feathers a bit here. I'm alerting all the mods of this action - many of them know people first hand who've received those dreaded letters from the OFAC. My actions may have to be modified or reversed, we'll see, it'll depend on the consensus.

DANG!! You know, I should be one to talk. Heck, all you have to do is take a look inthe gallery at all the pics I've posted . . . there's plenty stuff there. BUT, despite everything, I luike to keep a low profile, keep under the radar, something I'm afraid we're not doing too well right now.

Thanks everyone for your attention.


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## pinoyman

*Great post Mo!

I never like Cubans anyway. *


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## RJT

:tpd: I agree 100% with you. I have always thought it was a little foolish to post pics and info about what you just got in. It would be ok with me if we had a policy against it. The mods here work hard at keeping things "on the right track" my hats off to you guys for the hard work. It must be that BIG pay you guys get that keep you motivated.  Thanks again


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## zemekone

MoTheMan said:


> Don't ask, don't tell is a good philosophy to live by.


thank you mo...


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## RPB67

RJT said:


> :tpd: I agree 100% with you. I have always thought it was a little foolish to post pics and info about what you just got in. It would be ok with me if we had a policy against it. The mods here work hard at keeping things "on the right track" my hats off to you guys for the hard work. It must be that BIG pay you guys get that keep you motivated.  Thanks again


:tpd:

It would be a shame if something ever happened to our home because of this.

Great post.


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## guinsdan

Mo, can you just delete the threads w/ pics or details please?


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## LiteHedded

don't ask don't tell
so what exactly can we discuss in this forum?


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## Blaylock-cl

For the benefit of the forum and the members in it, I'd support whatever decisions are made concerning this matter. 

Thanks for bringing this to our attention.


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## j6ppc

Thank you Mo.


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## Old Sailor

Do what you deem fit Mo, I would hate to see this board or for that matter, any member get in :BS because of what was posted.


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## Stonato~

Good point Mo. It's not an issue I really have to worry about being Canadian but I've always thought this was risky behavior. It wouldn't take much for someone to act as a mole and cause alot of trouble for alot of people.


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## trogdor | the burninator

keep it low key, so OFAC will let us be. thanks, mo.


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## KraZieMaN55

Well said Mo and a practice we should all take seriously.


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## SDmate

glad ya back Mo  
hopefully your guidance will be appreciated by the newer members


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## Demented

Your worries are not without justification, phone calls, emails and internet post are all subject to scrutiny.

Little fish may not be the target of current investigations, but… do you really want to be on a list of people trafficking anything on the black market?

Anything banned by the US is black market goods.

Anyone trafficking such goods is a black marketier.

We’re not talking about a couple days in jail and a fine if federal charges are levied against you.

Should they choose to push the case, your looking at federal prison. No time off for good behavior, day for day straight time, 10 years is 3652.5 days.


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## TMoneYNYY

Well said, man... well said.


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## Twill413

What information? What pictures? What posts?  

with you on this one Mo, although I do like to ill-gotten goods...


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## Sandman

Demented said:


> Your worries are not without justification, phone calls, emails and internet post are all subject to scrutiny.
> 
> Little fish may not be the target of current investigations, but&#8230; do you really want to be on a list of people trafficking anything on the black market?
> 
> Anything banned by the US is black market goods.
> 
> Anyone trafficking such goods is a black marketier.
> 
> We're not talking about a couple days in jail and a fine if federal charges are levied against you.
> 
> Should they choose to push the case, your looking at federal prison. No time off for good behavior, day for day straight time, 10 years is 3652.5 days.


C'mon. Please, let 's not get carried away here. We are still talking cigars here right? I do agree with Mo's post but don't get paranoid. I think what he is saying is let's not flaunt this. Don't make a spectacle. For instance, lets not post "hey I made my first order and they will be here in 5 days with a tracking # 55343536 and delivered to 15344 Smith St, and it's cool cause this is a split with Johnnycool456 from CS, and then show photos of packaging. What's the point? I posted a photo earlier this week, but no more info than the photo was posted. Just cause you made an order you really don't need to announce it to a few thousand people. Keep it discrete and avoid unwanted attention.


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## Legends of the Playground

> C'mon. Please, let 's not get carried away here. We are still talking cigars here right? I do agree with Mo's post but don't get paranoid.


I welcome this new change/policy. I know two people that have gotten OFAC letters. Obviously, many more have one of their own that has been sent out in the past 6 months.

Might be time to lay low for a while.


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## lenguamor

I think the Habanos forum, including reviews, should be a hidden, closed forum. It should be available only to proven members; how to define "proven" is up to Paul and the Mods.


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## Sandman

Legends of the Playground said:


> I welcome this new change/policy. I know two people that have gotten OFAC letters. Obviously, many more have one of their own that has been sent out in the past 6 months.
> 
> Might be time to lay low for a while.


Yeah, I hear ya, but this is old news. I do welcome the policy but let's not act like this hasn't been gone over many times before. Maybe not on this board but it has, and I know you have seen it. If you have paid attention you have known about the consequences for quite some time now. Refer to my last post.


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## donp

Always a good idea to be discreet, especially if you reside in the US and obtain habano cigars. Thanks for the heads up Mo.


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## ResIpsa

words of wisdom Mo. Thanks for lookng out for the jungle.


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## newcigarz

I Feel you actions are justified. Being new here I would love to know as much as possible about everyone Cigar & sources. But not at the risk of the Gorilla or his source. For now I will just have to enjoy the reviews :2 :2


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## fireman43

Great post Mo, and a very good piece of advice. Like most have already said...Behind you and the crew keeping CS going 200%.


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## kheffelf

Thanks for the post Mo, I have had the same feelings lately.


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## Corona Gigante-cl

If you want to make a hard and fast rule, I think any discussion of payment or shipping methods should be strictly forbidden, reported to the mods, and removed by them as a matter of urgency.


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## mosesbotbol

The "look what I got in the mail" posts have irked me since I joined this site. Some of y'all are even taking pictures with the outer box and bubble wrap. Please use you head and some tact. Why be complicit in an illegal act if you live in the US, buying Cuban cigars delivered through the mail and admitting it to the world stage? Seems foolish to me. Kind of like showing your stolen car to the police...

Certain things are implied; if you just got a new box and did not travel somewhere or have someone get it from you- you got it in the mail. No need to give a shout out to your mail carrier.


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## Hunter

Right on Mo.


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## Pablo

lenguamor said:


> I think the Habanos forum, including reviews, should be a hidden, closed forum. It should be available only to proven members; how to define "proven" is up to Paul and the Mods.


Agreed, and unfortunately due to the actions of some, this will likely happen.


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## thebiglebowski

i agree - discretion is a good thing. and to the poster who suggested we're taking this too far - does anyone trust dubya and this regime to NOT take things too far?


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## Kayak_Rat

I am curious if the sentiment stated earlier will hold throughout the day. Great choice Mo. We always know you will keep us straight.


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## bazookajoe

thebiglebowski said:


> ...does anyone trust dubya and this regime to NOT take things too far?


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## ATLHARP

Cuba makes cigars?  


ATL


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## The Professor

ATLHARP said:


> Cuba makes cigars?
> 
> ATL


Only when rolled in the thighs of virgins, my friend.

Great post, Mo. I look forward to seeing how this evolved (in terms of policy changes, etc.).

~d.


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## etw926

I agree also. I would hate to ruin a good thing.


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## pathman

I've often thought some of the posts with pics of new acquisitions was a little flagrant. The don't ask don't tell policy works. Why risk getting our board scrutinized? Good job Mo, shut this stuff down or we'll all lose a little something.


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## NCRadioMan

Long overdue, imo. 

I am so glad this has been addressed. Thanks Mo! DADT!!


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## omowasu

lenguamor said:


> I think the Habanos forum, including reviews, should be a hidden, closed forum. It should be available only to proven members; how to define "proven" is up to Paul and the Mods.


I have thought this from day one almost 7 months ago as well. I was surprised that the forum was available immediately when I had joined. It was nice, dont get me wrong, but most likely a little "too soon" for comfort.

I have noticed that some threads were moved recently, and IMO that was a very good decision given the nature of the beast.

Maybe 6 months on CS, +++ feedback, or referral by a FOG for access to the forums would be effective? I dont run the show, but I trust that Paul and Mo will do what is right if needed.


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## j6ppc

omowasu said:


> Maybe 6 months on CS, +++ feedback, or referral by a FOG for access to the forums would be effective? I dont run the show, but I trust that Paul and Mo will do what is right if needed.


No idea what criteria were applied as far as to when folks can see stuff but the changes have already been made. Good call IMHO and long overdue.


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## Sandman

omowasu said:


> Maybe 6 months on CS, +++ feedback, or referral by a FOG for access to the forums would be effective? I dont run the show, but I trust that Paul and Mo will do what is right if needed.


I think this is a great idea. It will cut back on a lot of the unwanted threads, especially some that bring unwanted attention. I really hope this happens.


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## TheDirector

lenguamor said:


> I think the Habanos forum, including reviews, should be a hidden, closed forum. It should be available only to proven members; how to define "proven" is up to Paul and the Mods.


:tpd:

As a Canuck I am smewhat less sensitized to these issues, but as a member and "brother" I don't want to see bad things happen. I agree with Joe.


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## MoTheMan

*D A N G ! !*

A heck of a response in just 12hrs. . . and no hate mail!!

Anyways, glad to have so much feedback. I'd like to add a few more thoughts and to clarify things up a bit so that we can all have a better consensus.

Montecristo#2 sent me a PM. Heck, I liked a lof of what he wrote so I'm including it below



montecristo#2 said:


> First of all, I agree completely with your post, openly posting pictures of boxes (or single) cigars is not a good idea and should probably be avoided in the future. However, I think the problem is much greater than just some people posting pictures. *[Agreed.]*
> 
> People posting pictures of recent purchases is not something that has just started recently, it has been going on every since I joined over six months ago. *[Agreed.]*
> 
> The main problem is that the well respected members of CS (the people who have been around a long time) mainly talk about habanos. *We do talk more about Habanos, but I still smoke the occass. NC.*I am pretty sure most of the mods only talk about habanos. *Many do. Some talk more about their pipes! -- LOL*It is pretty easy to see, just compare the people participating in the two Maw/PIF threads. The Habanos thread is filled with older well respected *[& experienced]*members and moves very quickly, while the NC is mostly newer members and sometimes lags.
> 
> Newer members looks up to these people and want to experience the same sort of things. This drives people to make purchases and to post pictures of those purchases. I know first hand as I experience some of this myself (although I have never posted a picture). I actually made a conscience decision to move entirely to NCs after hearing about the letters. It is just not worth it for me. Over the last two months I have made an effort to make my collection 100% NC.
> 
> I think some of the older members (and mods) need to realize the influence they have on newer members. I don't mean to name any names, but mods post pictures of their collections as well. Although RG doesn't mean much to older members, it means a lot to newer ones. New members see RG as a sign of respect and the people with high RG mainly smoke habanos. *[We, some, or most, of the elders are the biggest braggers when it comes to our Habanos collections. Unfortunately, that's not serving as a good example at this point in time, when we really should be more careful, and show more restraint.*
> 
> Also, why didn't this come up when the letters first started coming out in Oct/Nov? The one thread that discussed these letters was quickly removed and the whole topic was made to seem like it doesn't exist. *Talk about the letter still circulates on other boards and there are many anxious elders out there.*
> 
> I thought about posting this in the thread, but decided it was better to just send you a PM. *Honestly Aaron, it's good enough to post here.  If anybody wants to complain about that, they can complain to me first.*I have found this works better, sometimes posts can be taken the wrong way and things can get out of hand. I just think the problem is much deeper than posting pictures and if this is really a problem, maybe a philosophical change might be required as well.
> 
> The only problem with that is if people can no longer talk about habanos, there is one less thing to talk about (and that thing is pretty major on this board). You can only talk about humidor/beads problems for so long and if most older members are not smoking that many NCs, it is just people bantering on the internet. Honestly, that works fine for me, but some members may no longer see the point of CS. *Free discourse and open discussion are things I cherich because they enrich our lives so much.*
> 
> * . . . edited . . .*
> 
> Again, I thought it would be better to send you a PM than to post this in the thread, just something to think about.
> Aaron


Thank you Aaron.



Sandman said:


> C'mon. Please, let 's not get carried away here. We are still talking cigars here right? I do agree with Mo's post but don't get paranoid. I think what he is saying is let's not flaunt this. *[Precisely.]* Don't make a spectacle. For instance, lets not post "hey I made my first order and they will be here in 5 days with a tracking # 55343536 and delivered to 15344 Smith St, and it's cool cause this is a split with Johnnycool456 from CS, and then show photos of packaging. *Believe it or not, that just about what happened on CW. Some newbie was so excited about his Habano purchases that he blabbred EVERYTHING! Pictures of his purchases, where he bought them from, how they were packaged so as to "fool" the US Customs, how he paid for them and how they were delivered to his addressed. I don't think he was malicious, just inexperienced, new, and someone who made a mistake costly to many others.* What's the point? I posted a photo earlier this week, but no more info than the photo was posted. Just cause you made an order you really don't need to announce it to a few thousand people. Keep it discrete and avoid unwanted attention. *Again, I agree*





guinsdan said:


> Mo, can you just delete the threads w/ pics or details please? *I actually did on a few threads last night. Not so much deletion as just tweaking of several posts so as to keep the general flow of the discussion w/out flaunting any illegal activity. I only went back a couple of days, need to scout further back.*





LiteHedded said:


> don't ask don't tell
> so what exactly can we discuss in this forum? *Really anything you want! Just think hard if anything you post might cause any undue attention!! Look over the next comment (just below) that I've posted.*





mosesbotbol said:


> The "look what I got in the mail" posts have irked me since I joined this site. Some of y'all are even taking pictures with the outer box and bubble wrap. Please use you head and some tact. Why be complicit in an illegal act if you live in the US, buying Cuban cigars delivered through the mail and admitting it to the world stage? Seems foolish to me. Kind of like showing your stolen car to the police... *That's what I'm talking about.*
> 
> Certain things are implied; if you just got a new box and did not travel somewhere or have someone get it from you- you got it in the mail. No need to give a shout out to your mail carrier. *Here's an important point I want to make. If you read recent threads posted by some of the FOG's you'll notice that they also talk about their latest experience with the elusive Habano. BUT, they discuss it more matter of fact. Not, look, I'm smoking this PSD4 I got in a box purchase lst week, but more like a tasting of a recent production PSD4. The difference is the inference that the cigars may have been gifted, or purchased for them (the FOG) by someone overseas, or possible acquired while travelling. There's hint that the laws were observed, not broken & flaunted.*


Fellow gorillas, some, no, most of the FOG's here are the biggest advertisers for smoking Havanas. We haven't set the best example, but I think that a lot of us realize that we need to change our postings in order to keep a lower profile.

Heck, by the time I came to CS, I had nearly a dozen sources for Habanos, had suffered US Customs seizuers a couple of times, and by then really avoided any direct purchase of cigars from overseas. Many cigars came through friends, some when I travelled, but I always knew who had the best cigars & from where to get them. [In 1996-97 I dated a lovely lady from Mexico City. Everytime she came to visit I asked her to pick up cigars for me, from the LCDH's in Mexico City. I had personally scouted those shops when I first visited her so I knew who had what. Now with a place like Club Stogie, before I travel to a new locale, I can post & get replies of where to go to get the best cigars around.]

Over time my youthful enthusiasm had been tempered by the experience of patience.

Young gorillas, I will leave it to you to teach some of the newbies & chimps the discretion they need to learn in the Havana Lounge. I think you can set a great example to follow. Us FOG's are here with you as well, we may not be posting on the same threads, there may be less interest for us there, but we are available to help out, just send us (& not just me -- LOL) a PM or two.

And remember what Rudman says, "The best cigar you smoke might be the next one you try."


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## LiteHedded

fair enough. I just think when you start in on this it's only going to lead to us losing this forum altogether. posting pics is flaunting. but the very idea of a habanos forum is flaunting it isn't it?
I just hope this isn't a "slippery slope" to losing ISOM discussion altogether


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## Mikes

Same thing is said year after year (here and on other bbs) but still ppl post their 'look what I got' or 'cigar pron' or 'my first box' or 'the mail man came today' etc and so forth. Good on ya Mo for stepping up. You can still talk about cigars without the photos, but some may find it hard to brag about the size of their collection, or how many dunhills or davidoffs they just bought, or how big their humidor is. Reputation in the cigar world isn't about Rg, what you just got in, how many sticks you have, how many posts you have, or the photos you post...its about your actions and contributions to the group as a whole. Maybe even getting rid of the 'insert image' button would be a good idea to keep pix from popping up in threads and not where they should be, the gallery? 

Mikes


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## Bobb

This has been a very interesting read. Thank you very much Mo, and everyone else who has commented!

I have always been confused how we were able to show our cuban products and stories without fear. Isn't it actually against the law for a US citizan to smoke a cuban cigar even if they are in a country where it is leagal? I am not saying that we should never talk about Cuban products, (not just cigars, to my understanding...all products from cuba are illeagal in the US...then again, this is a cigar site) but I very much agree that disgression is a must. I hope everything works out here. I rarley post in the Habanos section of the forum, but I love reading all the threads.

Thank you Paul and all of the Mods who have been working very hard (extra hard it seems latley) to keep this place up and running!


p.s. Sorry for all of my spelling/grematical errors. Writting has never been my strong suit...which really sucks since one of my favorite activities is to participate on a text based internet forum )


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## Blaylock-cl

I'm thinking that maybe we can make a sticky that might explain some of the guidelines for what is and is not acceptable in this lounge...similar to the "Club Stogie-Tips for Newbies" thread. This would be helpful when problems arise and people can be referred to that thread. Just seems like a good way to clarify things and avoid confusion.

Overall, I think this change is good for the forum.


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## montecristo#2

Considering I wrote that PM pretty late last night, it actually seems pretty coherent. :r :r



Mikes said:


> Maybe even getting rid of the 'insert image' button would be a good idea to keep pix from popping up in threads and not where they should be, the gallery?


Personally, I love pictures of cigars/boxes. Like people have said in other posts, I really don't have anyone to talk about cigars with outside of CS. When someone posts a picture of the Tatuajes, Fuentes or even the Swishers D) they just got, I love seeing those images. The main difference, you can post as many pictures of those cigars as you want. . .

It has been a strange couple of months here at CS, that is for sure.

A. the p word was banned (along with inappropriate images)
B. Certain questions have been asked
C. Threads have been moved or deleted entirely
D. One member has left after talking about DUI 
E. Sections have been restricted

I guess CS is evolving in this forever changing world. If we didn't, we might not survive.

At least I was able to score some more opusX and anejos last week! I guess some things don't change.


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## cvm4

This needed to be said a while ago. Very nice post Mo.


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## ComicBookFreak

Mikes said:


> Reputation in the cigar world isn't about Rg, what you just got in, how many sticks you have, how many posts you have, or the photos you post...its about your actions and contributions to the group as a whole.
> 
> Mikes


:tpd: Another fine post, and words to remember.

CBF:w


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## LasciviousXXX

I sickied this thread.... Darth Mo is one of my many mentors and in this has knowledge we ALL can benefit from.


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## montecristo#2

LasciviousXXX said:


> I sickied this thread.... Darth Mo is one of my many mentors and in this has knowledge we ALL can benefit from.


I assume you meant that you made this thread a sticky? :r :r


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## Thurm15

This thread was long overdue. I've been cringing every time I saw one of those damn "Lookie what I got in the mail threads" since last November. Thanks Mo.


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## Throb

Well said.


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## Fishbeadtwo

This thread has beeen interesting to me and brings to light my recent fears...OFAC and other agencies are probably very interested in how black market items are coming in to this country. If BillJimBob 357 can get isom's can't the "bad guys" get anthrax or whatever the same way? They gov is trying to secure the influx of many items and maybe the sticks are just an easy way of detecting the "leaks" ? If this section has been set on restricted access, I feel privledged to be reading and contributing. Perhaps if the mods, had a monthly code for isom's(Like # 54 would be for a Punch Punch)so discussion could go on about our fav sticks.... Or how about we post ghost addresses from Pluto? Course, didn't a guy post awhile ago that all our isoms were fake anyway?


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## mike32312

Great post Mo. When I first came aboad CS I went to look at the photo gallery and saw all the pics and thought how easy it would be if I was customs to track people down. Some things should be left unsaid. I like the idea of a special thread proven members would have access to for discussion of isoms. Shame it has to come to this. I to support whatever is decided. CS is the BEST! :ss


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## IHT

i just wanted to be cool like the rest of you'z guys and post in this topic.


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## burninator

IHT said:


> i just wanted to be cool like the rest of you'z guys and post in this topic.


Well.....which is it?


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## mike32312

IHT said:


> i just wanted to be cool like the rest of you'z guys and post in this topic.


I thought you already was cool. :r


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## IHT

you two are smartererer asses than my smartassness originally was.
:bx


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## donp

Just a final word from me about this topic. 
I am a relative newb myself, all post and rg points aside. And have noticed that there are a lot of new members of late. So, instead of hollering at em for a lack of research of old posts and other transgressions, which seem unavoidable for them, it is wise to simply make certain pitfalls unavoidable for them to make. Even for a "relative newb" like me, if I were given to posting pics of my new purchases (which I am not). I would find it difficult to do so, if I were unable to in the first place. Newb or not, some folks can't help but flaunt or shout to the highest when something good happens, regardless of possible ramifications. It is comfortable in here, and I don't think most of us consider the risks in such an environment. It IS illegal for US citizens to purchase or own cuban cigars or other products, and US citizens should always be aware of that. 
So, I urge the ownership to save us from ourselves, and limit certain aspects of these boards/forums. 
You may now let loose the hounds on me, I have a sufficient lead and am in the wind


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## Mister Moo

I am drinking a cup of Nebraska mountain-grown coffee, hoping this resolves quickly and for the benefit of PDS and all cigar smoking non-nincompoops. Thx Mo.


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## oddball

As one guilty of posting a pic of my first purchase, thanks for the advice.
Gotta do what's best for CS and the members.


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## HeavySmoke

pds said:


> Agreed, and unfortunately due to the actions of some, this will likely happen.


Thanks for your hard work Paul. I can tell you patience has been tested lately! Have one on me. :al :ss


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## Teninx

If this site has or does attract the attention of the OFAC or other Feds, it would probably be wise to avoid the merchants who advertise in the banner ads on every page. It's like daring Customs to open shipments from those shops.


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## MoTheMan

Teninx said:


> If this site has or does attract the attention of the OFAC or other Feds, it would probably be wise to avoid the merchants who advertise in the banner ads on every page. It's like daring Customs to open shipments from those shops.


I think it is because of this site's success that we're getting scrutinized by Treasury Dept./OFAC/US Customs.
JMHO here, but what I said earlier, "The difference is the inference that the cigars may have been gifted, or purchased for them (the FOG) by someone overseas, or possible acquired while travelling. *There's hint that the laws were observed, not broken & flaunted.* To me, it's a delicate dance, and your partner(s) (gov't agencies, cigar connoisseurs, etc...) wouldn't like it if you were clumsy!


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## Quint

A little late to the table here but I whole-heartly agree with you Mo. I Never understood such open discussion of purchases and the posting of pics from those that are US citizens (guilty as charged myself). Its sort of like stealing a car then posting pics of the car and discribing how the ride was. Obviously not as grave a violation but you get the point. 
Personally I don't think discussion about Cubans should be prohibited. Its educational and informative for those of us in the US that are prohibited from partaking in the forbidden fruit. I love reading the reviews about Cubans from non-US citizens and looking at their pics. I also love hearing about visits to the factories in Cuba and manufacturing techniques, ect. As most cigars lovers in the US I can't wait for the embargo to be lifted so we all can share in the Cuban experience legally. Until then there are a lot of great non-cubans that can be had and enjoyed


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## piperman

Well I have a little bit to add,
Cubans are illegal just like marijuana.
You wouldnt go on a forum and post pics of your last score of a 1/4 ounce Northern Lights and where you got it from, would you.
Just my :2 
maybe a bad analogy but it is mine.


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## Habanolover

piperman said:


> You wouldnt go on a forum and post pics of your last score of a 1/4 ounce Northern Lights and where you got it from, would you.


Sometimes I would not be so sure about that.
Sad isn't it?


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## LiteHedded

piperman said:


> Well I have a little bit to add,
> Cubans are illegal just like marijuana.
> You wouldnt go on a forum and post pics of your last score of a 1/4 ounce Northern Lights and where you got it from, would you.
> Just my :2
> maybe a bad analogy but it is mine.


I might


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## poker

...but not on this board


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## LiteHedded

poker said:


> ...but not on this board


certainly not


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## Teninx

MoTheMan said:


> I think it is because of this site's success that we're getting scrutinized by Treasury Dept./OFAC/US Customs.
> JMHO here, but what I said earlier, "The difference is the inference that the cigars may have been gifted, or purchased for them (the FOG) by someone overseas, or possible acquired while travelling. *There's hint that the laws were observed, not broken & flaunted.* To me, it's a delicate dance, and your partner(s) (gov't agencies, cigar connoisseurs, etc...) wouldn't like it if you were clumsy!


I don't order contraband cigars, so I'm in the clear. I don't think it would be a good idea for any U.S. citizen to order contraband cigars from merchants who advertise on a US-hosted website site now scrutinized by the Feds.


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## mrbl8k

Very well said and I thank you for taking the time to write it...


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## mdtaggart

I totally agree that some discreation is needed. I believe this thread was started so we can avoid becoming a target of the Government scrutiny. But now I am reading a couple of posts here that seem to state, as a matter of fact we are being scrutinized. Is that true, do we know we are in fact being watched? I just don't want things to get blown out of proporation and scare folks away. Just trying to keep it real. :w


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## MoTheMan

mdtaggart said:


> I totally agree that some discreation is needed. I believe this thread was started so we can avoid becoming a target of the Government scrutiny. But now I am reading a couple of posts here that seem to state, as a matter of fact we are being scrutinized. Is that true, do we know we are in fact being watched? I just don't want things to get blown out of proporation and scare folks away. Just trying to keep it real. :w


I have always assumed, from DAY 1, that any public domain website (& even some private ones) are under the watchful eye of the Gov. from time to time.


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## DonWeb

piperman said:


> You wouldnt go on a forum and post pics of your last score of a 1/4 ounce Northern Lights and where you got it from, would you.


geez, thanks piperman.

i just realized how old and out of touch i am.
(i thought northern lights were something totally different.)


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## donp

DonWeb said:


> geez, thanks piperman.
> 
> i just realized how old and out of touch i am.
> (i thought northern lights were something totally different.)


Hehe, thats a far cry from Panama Red


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## j6ppc

donp said:


> Hehe, thats a far cry from Panama Red


Or Lebanese blond for that matter.
Either way discretion is the better part of valor eh?


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## MoTheMan

Please everyone, I shouldn't have to remind you. A little more discretion in the Havana Lounge.

Please no posts claiming, look, I just ordered a box of ERDM Lonsdale ('98), found a good source, not too expensive, should have them in about a week or so.

Please be discreet! Think about saying something like, I found that there are ERDM Lonsdales still available. I love these. Sure looking forward to trying some oneday. 

Yes, we're all guilty of our love, no, our ENTHUSIASM of the leaf; but let's not flaunt our disregard for the trade lwas in the pursuit of our passions.

I've been editin quite a few posts in the Havana lounge and find that this job is taking more & more time each day.


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## Boston_Dude05

Good words of wisdom Mo. I've been seeing quite a few threads on those tough OFAC letters on other various boards.


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## MoTheMan

Boston_Dude05 said:


> Good words of wisdom Mo. I've been seeing quite a few threads on those tough OFAC letters on other various boards.


These letters have ruffled a lot of people's feathers.

Worse still, a I've heard that a few people who were feeling incredible guilty, & not wanting any trouble, have readily told OFAC people everything about their transactions. We just don't need that kind of attention.


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## LiteHedded

MoTheMan said:


> These letters have ruffled a lot of people's feathers.
> 
> Worse still, a I've heard that a few people who were feeling incredible guilty, & not wanting any trouble, have readily told OFAC people everything about their transactions. We just don't need that kind of attention.


wow
i'd definately have to consult with an attorney before I presented evidence against myself


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## MoTheMan

LiteHedded said:


> wow
> i'd definately have to consult with an attorney before I presented evidence against myself


yeah! Stupid, inexperience, ignorant people. Hope that their action doesn't cause a lot of heat for a lot of others.


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## mosesbotbol

MoTheMan said:


> Please everyone, I shouldn't have to remind you. A little more discretion in the Havana Lounge.
> 
> Please no posts claiming, look, I just ordered a box of ERDM Lonsdale ('98), found a good source, not too expensive, should have them in about a week or so.


Maybe these people can include their tracking number, street address and where FedEX usually leaves packages for them when they are not home... :tu

I remember in High School, a buddy broke into a Music Store, stole a limited edition guitar and brought it to school the next day. How could someone be so stupid, huh? Just an analogy&#8230; Sometimes you have to step back to move forward.


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## donp

I for one realize I must be more careful about what I post. Yet while I understand it, and know that discretion is called for, I can't help but feel resentful at having to walk on eggshells. It is not resentment at Club Stogie or any Botls or Sotls, it is a kind of anger about having to watch what I say because "big brother" may be watching or, may have elicited information from another who through fear, may have felt compelled to give information that may hurt others. 
I just finished reading a book about Richard Winters, and the exploits of his Company E of the 101st paratroopers of the 506th regiment in WW2. It bothers me that he and men like him fought for freedoms that are taken for granted and or abused nowadays. And that I should fear that I may be watched, evaluated and possibly prosecuted by my own country, make me wanna vomit. 
I do apologize for being a nuisance through my careless posts, and I assure you all that I will be more mindful of the current state of affairs.
If I should receive one of the OFAC letters, watch the smoke, for I will make a lot of noise and won't go down without a fight.


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## MoTheMan

One key problem is a lot of FOG's have learned through many years & many experiences how to acquire Havanas discreetly. Not just Havanas, but just about any Havana that they may want to smoke. Many of the FOG's I know no longer share their sources with people (not even me). Not for being selfish or greedy. No!  

They've spent a long time cultivating relationships with merchants so that they may be able to acquire what they like. Now with the advent of internet dealers, discussion boards, & global business it seems that anybody with a credit card can become an overnight collector & connoisseur. These FOG's don't want to risk losing that relationship/friendship they've got because suddenly somebody gets careless & confesses all at how they're committing actions considered illegal.

A lot of established merchants are becoming very selective with their new clientele, not taking new clients w/out referral. I believe they're trying to cultivate good longstanding relationships, not find careless, fly by night customers who are price shopping. If it's not obvious to readers of this board then let me tell you, I know of merchants who will go to extra lengths to find that particular box of cigars that a special client is looking for. Last time I spoke w/ a merchant I know in Switzerland, I wasn't surprised that he remembered me, I was surprised that he remembered who my friends were and asked about them. Now THAT is customer service. :tu 

The law is the law and it's going to remain the law (even when it's a stupid law) till it changes. If you're going to break it, and I'm not advocating that you do, do so discreetly and don't go advertising it. We want to keep the playground safe & fun!


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## icehog3

Well said Mo.


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## mrbl8k

icehog3 said:


> Well said Mo.


:tpd: Thank you for the post


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## Stonato~

MoTheMan said:


> One key problem is a lot of FOG's have learned through many years & many experiences how to acquire Havanas discreetly. Not just Havanas, but just about any Havana that they may want to smoke. Many of the FOG's I know no longer share their sources with people (not even me). Not for being selfish or greedy. No!
> 
> They've spent a long time cultivating relationships with merchants so that they may be able to acquire what they like. Now with the advent of internet dealers, discussion boards, & global business it seems that anybody with a credit card can become an overnight collector & connoisseur. These FOG's don't want to risk losing that relationship/friendship they've got because suddenly somebody gets careless & confesses all at how they're committing actions considered illegal.
> 
> A lot of established merchants are becoming very selective with their new clientele, not taking new clients w/out referral. I believe they're trying to cultivate good longstanding relationships, not find careless, fly by night customers who are price shopping. If it's not obvious to readers of this board then let me tell you, I know of merchants who will go to extra lengths to find that particular box of cigars that a special client is looking for. Last time I spoke w/ a merchant I know in Switzerland, I wasn't surprised that he remembered me, I was surprised that he remembered who my friends were and asked about them. Now THAT is customer service. :tu
> 
> The law is the law and it's going to reain the law (even when it's a stupid law)till it changes. If you're going to break it, and I'm not advocating that you do, do so discreetly and don't go advertising it. We want to keep the playground safe & fun!


Funny you just mentioned this. I got in touch with a vintage vendor yesterday with a few q's. They said they only take new customers by referral. Which I was.
...but it shows you where things are headed, it's a good thing.


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## One Lonely Smoker

I just got called out on another board for reccomending discretion in everything, to have sensitive discussions in PMs, to refrain from making posts entitled "look what the mailman brought" complete with pictures, etc.
Now, to be fair, this board is originated by a Non-US Citizen and not only do they talk openly about all of it, but they even openly discuss sources. I think this extra layer of anti-protection is almost designed to say, "Hey, stupid Americans, YOU are the only ones who need to keep these things secret, with your silly government and your obnoxious embargo." 

NOW, I was not offended by being reminded of this fact, but I have enough of a bad opinion of this backward and misguided logic that I do not intend to post or lurk there anymore. Not being Americans and not being cowed by your government's policies is no reason to openly blast out the names of vendors so that the negative effects so aptly described in this thread can propogate further afield. No sense in me giving out the name of the forums here, I do not want to help them grow in membership, nor would I like a flood of PMs asking me about the site. They have a nice crowd there, many members of the Jungle also post there, so ask someone else please. I used to have a nearly neutral impression of their liberal policy, now I am afraid it's just a bad feeling. The moderator/owner was not calling me out by defending the ridiculous policy, he was reminding me that not everyone is an American. Point taken, Non-US Guy.


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## Scimmia

So you're saying that just because of the American embargo, the rest of the world shouldn't be allowed to talk about things online? I'm familiar with that forum, and there are a LOT of non-Americans there. If they want to talk about it, and the board administration is OK with it, that's their business. If you're an American talking about things on that board, though, be careful, because anyone can be monitoring it just like they can on any other forum.

Edit: just wanted to add that maybe we shouldn't be talking about other forum's policies on here? I'm sure the mods will interceded if it's not proper.


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## Badkarma

It's okay for Congress to vote themselves health care for life, a paycheck for life, wage increases and more perks that a millionaire would blush at, but God forbid that americans be allowed to enjoy a stogie from paradise!!!!

It just chaps my a$$.

Recind the embargo!!!!! It's not doing any good to anybody and if Fidel hasnt learned his lesson in 44 years I dont think he's going to.


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## hamncheese

Scimmia said:


> Edit: just wanted to add that maybe we shouldn't be talking about other forum's policies on here? I'm sure the mods will interceded if it's not proper.


I was gonna say... why isn't this on the other board?


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## Badkarma

I just realized that the Embargo has been in place as long as I've been alive.

This suxs!!!


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## Corona Gigante-cl

This is not the place to discuss your issues with the way other boards are managed.

It is especially uncool to call out the owner of another board by name.

Just my $0.02.



One Lonely Smoker said:


> I just got called out on another board for reccomending discretion in everything, to have sensitive discussions in PMs, to refrain from making posts entitled "look what the mailman brought" complete with pictures, etc...


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## pistol

Corona Gigante said:


> This is not the place to discuss your issues with the way other boards are managed.
> 
> It is especially uncool to call out the owner of another board by name.
> 
> Just my $0.02.


:tpd: One of the things that I like most about CS is that people here don't bash other boards like a couple of others that I can think of. It's especially poor form to call out another owner/moderator by name when they aren't even here to defend themselves. If you have an issue with that board, just stop going there. Are you trying to get us to applaud you or something? Do you need validation? If so, you aren't getting it from me.
BTW, you never mentioned the board's name, but you did name the owner and give very specific information about the board. It's not too hard to figure out which one you're talking about.


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## Pablo

When you run a forum, many things go into your thinking concerning the rules and regulations of each individual forum. I look at a privately owned forum, like CS and the one you mention, as a community whose "atmosphere" gets created under the guidance of the owner and senior members.

For that reason they are all different. Fortunately or unfortunately, dependant on your position, they are other forums and choices if you don't like the way someone runs something.

Obviously biased, I always give the benefit of the doubt to the dorum administrators as I know there is a reson for everything, even though it may not always be obvious to every user.


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## MoTheMan

A lot of good discussions going on here.

All's I got to say is just wait. Somebody will goof, start talking very openly about their sources of Havanas and WHAM!! More Seizures. When some of those overseas vendors who ship to US customers and depend on them for business are suddenly losing a good portion of their business, when members are losing $$$ they spent on orders and they're not getting any kind of re-imbursementm, you'll be hearing lots of complaints and you'll find the board more willing to change some things.

Let's not forget, the US is the biggest consumer market in the world, both in per person dollar spent AND in total US dollars spent. Also, let's not forget that CS is now the third (or so?) largest online cigar rel'd BB, so we get more attention AND more scrutiny.


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## NCRadioMan

Corona Gigante said:


> This is not the place to discuss your issues with the way other boards are managed.
> 
> It is especially uncool to call out the owner of another board by name.


Absolutly! :tu

What goes on at other boards should stay there. :2


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## dayplanner

Corona Gigante said:


> This is not the place to discuss your issues with the way other boards are managed.
> 
> It is especially uncool to call out the owner of another board by name.
> 
> Just my $0.02.


:tu It is most uncool to bash another board here.


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## croatan

carbonbased_al said:


> :tu It is most uncool to bash another board here.


I didn't really take OLS's post as "bashing" the other forum. The same opinion he posted has been put forth there before by many people--even voted on not too long ago, if I remember correctly. As OLS (and people on that board) said: it's not a US-run board and the owner (who runs the board well, imo) has no reason to worry about such things. Personally, I didn't see any malevolence in OLS's above post--though I may, of course, be dense as Greg keeps telling me--and at least it was more interesting to read than a few pages of "Nice post" posts.


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## dayplanner

One Lonely Smoker said:


> Now, to be fair, this board is originated by a Non-US Citizen and not only do they talk openly about all of it, but they even openly discuss sources. * I think this extra layer of anti-protection is almost designed to say, "Hey, stupid Americans, YOU are the only ones who need to keep these things secret, with your silly government and your obnoxious embargo." *
> 
> NOW, I was not offended by being reminded of this fact, but I have enough of a bad opinion of this backward and misguided logic that I do not intend to post or lurk there anymore. Not being Americans and not being cowed by your government's policies is no reason to openly blast out the names of vendors so that the negative effects so aptly described in this thread can propogate further afield. * The moderator/owner was not calling me out by defending the ridiculous policy, he was reminding me that not everyone is an American. Point taken, Non-US Guy*.


I bolded the parts that struck me as bashing James. Although I may be wrong. Post strikes me in the wrong way, shouldn't be here, and it bashes a board I mod and like very much. It was in bad taste imho.


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## IHT

croatan said:


> though I may, of course, be dense as Greg keeps telling me


_*"We regret to inform you, James, that your skull thickness is too great for you to retain any new forms of information. Please refrain from attempting tricks previously unperformed by yourself, the aforementioned dense person."*_
:tu


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## croatan

carbonbased_al said:


> I bolded the parts that struck me as bashing James. Although I may be wrong. Post strikes me in the wrong way, shouldn't be here, and it bashes a board I mod and like very much. It was in bad taste imho.


I totally see your point, Joe. And I understand that it's personal for you.

I guess I just read the portions you bolded to be more on the humorous than bashing side because most of my European friends are constantly calling me obnoxious (which I am, especially when I'm drinking, which is pretty much all the time) and my country silly (which it often is--though I wouldn't live anywhere else :u ). So it gave me a chuckle.

Maybe you're right though. It can be hard to tell context on a forum so I usually give the benefit of the doubt. Oh well, back to regularly scheduled programming: Nice post, Greg. :r


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## One Lonely Smoker

Scimmia said:


> So you're saying that just because of the American embargo, the rest of the world shouldn't be allowed to talk about things online? I'm familiar with that forum, and there are a LOT of non-Americans there. If they want to talk about it, and the board administration is OK with it, that's their business.


No, that's what YOU're saying. I never said anything of the sort. I SAID that I was called out for making a statement that sounded like I had forgotten that not everyone on that board is an American, and he was right.
Anything after that is something you inferred.


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## One Lonely Smoker

Corona Gigante said:


> This is not the place to discuss your issues with the way other boards are managed.
> 
> It is especially uncool to call out the owner of another board by name.
> 
> Just my $0.02.


Geez, here we go again. Did you read my post? Where did you see that I called the board's owner by name, or the board itself for that matter? I have all the respect for the owner AND his opinion of what he thinks I did. I am just choosing not to frequent that board anymore because I strongly disagree with their policy of openly discussing sources.


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## One Lonely Smoker

croatan said:


> I totally see your point, Joe. And I understand that it's personal for you.
> 
> I guess I just read the portions you bolded to be more on the humorous than bashing side because most of my European friends are constantly calling me obnoxious (which I am, especially when I'm drinking, which is pretty much all the time) and my country silly (which it often is--though I wouldn't live anywhere else :u ). So it gave me a chuckle.
> 
> Maybe you're right though. It can be hard to tell context on a forum so I usually give the benefit of the doubt. Oh well, back to regularly scheduled programming: Nice post, Greg. :r


So refreshing to see that someone that I respect also has a sense of humor. You nailed it right on the head. Ever watch a troupe called Monthy Python you SILLY ENGLISH PIGDOG? I am making fun of OUR government's policy, not that person's actual opinion of me and my government, neither of which is very relevant to me. Sure, context is a little shaky here, and I can see how some people with less reading comprehension skills could see people's names where there are none, and board names where there are none. I even respect your right to think I am crossing the line when I have merely come close and pointed at it. Or maybe in pointing, my ARM crossed the line. Who knows. I am out of this discussion. I did not edit my post to remove names, the names were never there to begin with, so therefore, any argument you make that states that I did (edit) name names (edit)is moot. PLUS, my post was ONLY made in the context of the discussion that MO started, which I think is spot on. What came after it is almost a threadjack. *My point is, it has been proven many times that showing off your loot and talking about all of your new purchases will add up eventually to increased scrutiny on YOU, the VENDOR, more seizures and a tightening of US policy against ALL OF US. Can we (edit) end (edit) the OLS discussion now, or have I missed something you still want to cover?* _Edited by MoTheMan._ :tu

(edit) Oh, and by the way, ask anyone who knows me from this forum and they will tell you, I have been saying this for almost two years. I got up on that soapbox the week I took my photos down. I had the second largest set of albums here, second only to Pinoyman. And then one day I shuddered and thought.."hmmm...BAD idea." and I took em down. It wasn't a contest for me, (at least not until Pinoyman started getting good) but I just love to take photos of Cuban cigars. The mystique, the allure, the mouth-watering goodness. mmmmm.


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## Mister Moo

Being indiscrete? It's *getting political**,* even.


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## vtdragon

First, I generally smoke only NC's, not because of any particular concern about Cubans, but because acquiring them in the US just doesn't seem to be worth the hassle to me. I have enjoyed Cubans while visiting Canada and other countries, but do not have them at home.

Having qualified myself, I will go on to say that I think *any US citizen* who admits to acquiring and bringing Cuban cigars into the US on an open forum is foolish. He is just inviting trouble.

Secondly, I think the fact that the forum is supported by a variety of Cuban cigar retailers, with banner ads at the top of every page, just adds to the probability of admitted Cuban smokers eventually running afoul of the government.

Finally, and I've thought this since I joined the forum, having rules about not discussing where to buy Cubans is just plain silly on a site *supported* by retailers of Cuban cigars. Let the foolish post what they want. They and their (illegal) suppliers will be the only ones who suffer. Those who acquire Cubans via other, more clandestine means will continue to do so regardless of the postings on this or any other forum.


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## pnoon

No disrespect meant to anyone who replied but this thread was meant for reading and acting (or not) as each of you wish.

Thread closed.

---
bump

For those who may have missed it. This is an important read - *especially for those who are new to Habanos.*


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## poker

bump


----------

