# Ligero-Laced 2nds



## izkeh (Dec 17, 2007)

So, I get an email about CI's Ligero-Laced 2nds.

Looks to me to be Cain 2nds.

I don't see a smiley icon playing Craps but that's what I did. We shall see...

Here's the link to the weekly special - Cigars International


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## ghe-cl (Apr 9, 2005)

Don't know how meaningful it is, but the bundle label is the same one, with obvious wording changes, they use for bundles of Alec Bradley seconds.


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## izkeh (Dec 17, 2007)

Yeah, I noticed that too. Well, in any event I'm always looking for a decent golf course cigar....


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## Cigar Noob (May 22, 2011)

If their hints mean anything than it points to Oliva/Cain with the "leading cigar making familiy in Nicaragua". AB isn't a family, just a guy and most of his cigars are made in someone elses factory in Honduras. Looks like a Cain Maduro to me.


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## Wicked_Rhube (Jul 29, 2012)

Check the sizes, gotta be Oliva IMO, the letters are the different series. I think I'll grab some too.


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## axiscized (Nov 9, 2011)

I called customer service about them cause the picture shown look like Maddies. She said that the ones with the M were maduros. All the others had habano wrappers.


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## Fuzzy (Jun 19, 2011)

The Cigar Families in Nicaragua include Plasencia, Padron, Oliva for the biggies, not to mention the smaller producers and and the boutique cigar companies.

these ligero-laced cigars do sound intriguing!


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## Engineer99 (Aug 4, 2011)

Alright, I bit and ordered some of the 7x38 lanceros. With all the hints ( family, ligero) I'm thinking certain sizes are Oliva V's. The Oliva V lancero is a good candidate since it's a half inch shorter than the traditional Laguito #1 lancero size and there are not many cigars that would fit all the above descriptors.


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## E Dogg (Mar 23, 2011)

I ordered the No.4's.... The only stick I can think of that's called No.4 is Oliva V. We shall see when they arrive next week...


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## Cigar Noob (May 22, 2011)

Engineer99 said:


> Alright, I bit and ordered some of the 7x38 lanceros. With all the hints ( family, ligero) I'm thinking certain sizes are Oliva V's. The Oliva V lancero is a good candidate since it's a half inch shorter than the traditional Laguito #1 lancero size and there are not many cigars that would fit all the above descriptors.


I still think these are going to be Cain, maybe the F since it is "liga F lancero", they are 7x38 too. Lots of 7x38s out there though.

Just placed an order. remember to look at the free shipping thread fellas!


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## Engineer99 (Aug 4, 2011)

Cigar Noob said:


> I still think these are going to be Cain, maybe the F since it is "liga F lancero". While I'd prefer the V I think it is such a good deal it's worth risking it.


I was also thinking Cain, and getting either Cain Or Oliva V lanceros is a win for me. Both sticks have been widely praised and if they're one or the other, I'll be a happy camper.


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## 09FXSTB (Jun 22, 2012)

If I can get Cains even cheaper this way....I am definitely in!


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## Cigar Noob (May 22, 2011)

E Dogg said:


> I ordered the No.4's.... The only stick I can think of that's called No.4 is Oliva V. We shall see when they arrive next week...


This size also comes in the Cain Daytona. Cain seems to be the theme so far. I got a box of the Dayton no 4 and the size is great and a solid smoke.


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## E Dogg (Mar 23, 2011)

Cigar Noob said:


> This size also comes in the Cain Daytona. Cain seems to be the theme so far. I got a box of the Dayton no 4 and the size is great and a solid smoke.


Nice... works for me


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## Vicini (Oct 10, 2010)

My vote is for cain based on the name "Ligero-Laced" and cain is "Straight Ligero" maybe it's clever word play maybe not. anyway they look to be from Oliva so they should be good

also there are the letters.
 H - Habanno 
M - Maduro 
D - Daytona
F - F 

that's all 4 types of Cains.


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## Gatorfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Tempting and price is right... Got some Nicaraguan seconds from Cbid and they are delicious!


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## sacmore21 (Dec 8, 2007)

Vicini said:


> My vote is for cain based on the name "Ligero-Laced" and cain is "Straight Ligero" maybe it's clever word play maybe not. anyway they look to be from Oliva so they should be good
> 
> also there are the letters.
> H - Habanno
> ...


This! :smile::smile:


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## nillorset (Sep 21, 2012)

This is funny I see this today as I spend 15 min last night trying to figure out this very answer. As of right now all roads have led to Oliva as the answer. I started to order them however I dont have enough room in my 300 ct. humi out:. Guys be sure to let us all know what the verdict is! I am dying to know.


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## BKDW (Nov 7, 2009)

let me know how they smoke....

If Oliva, I will bite.


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## Xikar77 (Jul 28, 2012)

Ah...for the price I guess I'll bite.


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## E Dogg (Mar 23, 2011)

Shaweet! I ordered with the free shipping code and they sent it priority :banana: I should have mine tomorrow


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## Engineer99 (Aug 4, 2011)

E Dogg said:


> Shaweet! I ordered with the free shipping code and they sent it priority :banana: I should have mine tomorrow


You know...that 's really great....I did the same thing and won't get them till NEXT FRIDAY. At least we will have some idea of how these things smoke before the special is over.


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## Brettanomyces (Jul 12, 2012)

Thanks for everyone chiming in with the probable origin of these (it seems very likely, doesn't it?). I bit on a mazo of the "D" coronas. For $1.50/stick, it's not much of a risk. Then again, if they're good at this price, and I wait too long to stock up, that could be a problem, too. What to do?


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## Cigar Noob (May 22, 2011)

Vicini said:


> My vote is for cain based on the name "Ligero-Laced" and cain is "Straight Ligero" maybe it's clever word play maybe not. anyway they look to be from Oliva so they should be good
> 
> also there are the letters.
> H - Habanno
> ...


I think you've nailed it. Really an awesome price. Looking forward to my first trial run with seconds.


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## izkeh (Dec 17, 2007)

E Dogg said:


> Shaweet! I ordered with the free shipping code and they sent it priority :banana: I should have mine tomorrow


WHA???? Free Shipping wha? Damn, I musta been late to the party.


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## jswaykos (Oct 26, 2010)

My thoughts/feelings based on nothing but speculation: The 'F' lancero 2nds may contain tobaccos that are in the Cain Fs, but the cigar itself was never set to be a 'first' F lancero and it just has a splotch on the wrapper. Rather, they ended up with extra/scrap tobacco and made some run off cigars that while they may not be the EXACT blend, they're very similar, or have some shorter filler tobaccos, or whatever. Same for all the others. I could be way off, or could not be.


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## Epoch (May 12, 2012)

I had to bite on some of the Robustos F and H. I will be estatic if they do turnout to be Cain. I passed these by when I saw the email, thanks for the head up on the possible blend as I would not have made the connection but I have to agree that the descriptors fit.


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## jswaykos (Oct 26, 2010)

Also note - these are regularly available through CI on their 'big list of brands'... just a few bucks more per bundle. If we are to assume that they're Cains, I find it a little odd that they have (had?) Daytona lanceros. Those are incredibly tough to get your hands on, yet they had entire bundles of seconds?? It would cost a TON of money to acquire 10 'first' D lanceros.


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## Engineer99 (Aug 4, 2011)

jswaykos said:


> Also note - these are regularly available through CI on their 'big list of brands'... just a few bucks more per bundle. If we are to assume that they're Cains, I find it a little odd that they have (had?) Daytona lanceros. Those are incredibly tough to get your hands on, yet they had entire bundles of seconds?? It would cost a TON of money to acquire 10 'first' D lanceros.


I don't think there are any "D" lanceros available, but the "F" lanceros are what I ordered. Regardless, the Cain F lancero is available at a variety of retailers in tubes for about $6 per in a box of ten. Not that rare, but also not super available either. I am also baffled as to why there are a bunch of seconds of a cigar that they don't make that many to begin with.

The Cain F lancero, as far as I know, was only available in the Studio Tobac sampler that you could only get at Cain events, but became a regular, but limited, production vitola.

I guess I'll find out next week what I got....


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## Cigar Noob (May 22, 2011)

jswaykos said:


> Also note - these are regularly available through CI on their 'big list of brands'... just a few bucks more per bundle. If we are to assume that they're Cains, I find it a little odd that they have (had?) Daytona lanceros. Those are incredibly tough to get your hands on, yet they had entire bundles of seconds?? It would cost a TON of money to acquire 10 'first' D lanceros.


The lanceros say F, which they sold a bunch of last year in Tubos at $6ea. The no4 says D and is a regular production size for the Daytona. Everything seems to match up. I don't know much about the industry but I doubt they would make most of these with the wrong mix and not intend them to be 1STs. They would still have 2nds to deal with.


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## jswaykos (Oct 26, 2010)

Engineer99 said:


> I don't think there are any "D" lanceros available, but the "F" lanceros are what I ordered. Regardless, the Cain F lancero is available at a variety of retailers in tubes for about $6 per in a box of ten. Not that rare, but also not super available either. I am also baffled as to why there are a bunch of seconds of a cigar that they don't make that many to begin with.
> 
> The Cain F lancero, as far as I know, was only available in the Studio Tobac sampler that you could only get at Cain events, but became a regular, but limited, production vitola.
> 
> I guess I'll find out next week what I got....


Right, my main point of confusion was that for some of these, it's easier to get seconds than firsts? The "D" lanceros show out of stock if you go through the regular link on the site's Big List of Brands, but they seemed to have removed out of stock items from the Weekly Deal listing.

In the end, though, I've come to terms with the fact that there are many, many things I'll never know - we'll all never know - because we don't have a factory of our own!


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## Cigar Noob (May 22, 2011)

I wonder what Padron or LP or Tat or Illusione do with their 2nds. Let factory workers smoke them? Destroy them? I'm curious as well. I wonder what the typical rejection rate is of the big companies.


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## Engineer99 (Aug 4, 2011)

jswaykos said:


> Right, my main point of confusion was that for some of these, it's easier to get seconds than firsts? The "D" lanceros show out of stock if you go through the regular link on the site's Big List of Brands, but they seemed to have removed out of stock items from the Weekly Deal listing.
> 
> In the end, though, I've come to terms with the fact that there are many, many things I'll never know - we'll all never know - because we don't have a factory of our own!


I don't think there were ever any "D" lanceros available in the first place, only the "F". I didn't see them anywhere. The other "D" seconds do indeed match up with the Daytona sizes though. I find it a little incredulous that there are scads of Cain F lancero seconds laying around, but if that's what they are, I've got some on the way and I'll take 'em.

To the best of my knowledge, the Cain Daytona lancero was never a regular production cigar and not made in quantities for sale like the F lancero. It was only available in an extremely limited Studio Tobac sampler that had 4 Daytona lanceros, 4 F lanceros and a culebra.


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## Wicked_Rhube (Jul 29, 2012)

Epoch said:


> I had to bite on some of the Robustos F and H. I will be estatic if they do turnout to be Cain. I passed these by when I saw the email, thanks for the head up on the possible blend as I would not have made the connection but I have to agree that the descriptors fit.


I bought the same, and the free shipping code still worked! $49 for 30 smokes, if they are at all descent then its a bargain anayway!


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## jswaykos (Oct 26, 2010)

Engineer99 said:


> I don't think there were ever any "D" lanceros available in the first place, only the "F". I didn't see them anywhere. The other "D" seconds do indeed match up with the Daytona sizes though. I find it a little incredulous that there are scads of Cain F lancero seconds laying around, but if that's what they are, I've got some on the way and I'll take 'em.
> 
> To the best of my knowledge, the Cain Daytona lancero was never a regular production cigar and not made in quantities for sale like the F lancero. It was only available in an extremely limited Studio Tobac sampler that had 4 Daytona lanceros, 4 F lanceros and a culebra.


Yes, I know. Thus why I was surprised to see then as out of stock, even. Go to the ligero laced seconds on the big list of brands under the 'Cigars' tab, not through the weekly deal link, and they're there. Or at least they were this morning. Maybe they never had them in stock to begin with.

But whatever these are they could still be decent which would make then a good deal.


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## Damselnotindistress (Aug 7, 2011)

I've purchased these "Seconds" bargains in the past. I'm very familiar w/Manuel Queseda, La Aurora, Padron and Oliva cigars, and have enjoyed their various products immensely through the years. WHATEVER these "seconds" were...they - were - HORRIBLE :twitch: I got them because CI's ad said they may be of any of the above or more's product. I don't know if it may have been due to storage conditions or sorry selections of leaf, but it was like trying to enjoy the "flavor" of old coffee grounds wrapped in Al Bundy's sweat socks :yuck:


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## 8ball (Feb 17, 2006)

Damselnotindistress said:


> I've purchased these "Seconds" bargains in the past. I'm very familiar w/Manuel Queseda, La Aurora, Padron and Oliva cigars, and have enjoyed their various products immensely through the years. WHATEVER these "seconds" were...they - were - HORRIBLE :twitch: I got them because CI's ad said they may be of any of the above or more's product. I don't know if it may have been due to storage conditions or sorry selections of leaf, but it was like trying to enjoy the "flavor" of old coffee grounds wrapped in Al Bundy's sweat socks :yuck:


I believe you just talked me out of these. Hopefully someone will smoke one and report back.


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## E Dogg (Mar 23, 2011)

Mine didn't arrive today, so that means monday. Will more than likely smoke one ROTT :smoke:


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## Fuzzy (Jun 19, 2011)

I have smoked CI's super premium seconds and have actually enjoyed them. They are hinted to be Punch/Hoya De Monterey type cigars and they are right in the profile I like for walking the dog.

I may break down and try the "laced" seconds for the same walk the dog cigar.


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## Brookswphoto (Dec 25, 2008)

If you believe that these are the same cigars as Cain F Lanceros (or any of the Cains) just sold for $1.50 each, you are dreaming.

There is NOTHING confirmed about the blend of any of these, and you are basing your buying decision on the description of a site that wants to sell as many as they can before people realize they are shite.

Sorry.


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## E Dogg (Mar 23, 2011)

Got mine today... they look, smell and feel really nice. Even if they aren't cain/oliva, for 20 bucks, if they smoke and taste good then I won't feel like I did too bad.... will find out soon enough:smoke:

Will post pics later...


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## E Dogg (Mar 23, 2011)

What do you think, do these two look similar???


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## Wicked_Rhube (Jul 29, 2012)

Look the same to me Eric! Mine should arrive tomorrow, and I will be smoking one ASAP. For the record, I have never smoked a cain, and my only Oliva experience are the Flor de and the Vindicator (which was terrible). So I am not really "expecting" anything. I just love getting good smokes for cheap, that is half the fun of this hobby for me.


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## pachila (Sep 25, 2012)

Have you smoke the stick yet? Really curious how it taste like. Thanks.


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## nillorset (Sep 21, 2012)

i just ordered the liga D torpedo's! 

when i receive them I will report my findings.. immediately :dude:


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## sacmore21 (Dec 8, 2007)

Wicked_Rhube said:


> Look the same to me Eric! Mine should arrive tomorrow, and I will be smoking one ASAP. For the record, I have never smoked a cain, and my only Oliva experience are the Flor de and the Vindicator (which was terrible). So I am not really "expecting" anything. I just love getting good smokes for cheap, that is half the fun of this hobby for me.


I was wondering if there were any early verdicts on these?


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## Cigar Noob (May 22, 2011)

Brookswphoto said:


> If you believe that these are the same cigars as Cain F Lanceros (or any of the Cains) just sold for $1.50 each, you are dreaming.
> 
> There is *NOTHING confirmed* about the blend of any of these, and you are basing your buying decision on the description of a site that wants to sell as many as they can before people realize they are shite.
> 
> Sorry.


Bit of a contradiction to say "It most definitely is not X"... and then say "nothing is confirmed". If you know another company making those exact sizes with those exact wrappers please fill us in. They are 2nds. The above pick looks damn similar. I have some Cain F lanceros and ordered that size so I will compare in a few months.

I based my decision on a lancero for less than $1.50, if it turns out to be a diamond in the rough, great. If not, not a huge risk. I am assuming based on the name you are more clued into the industry so if you have some intel I'm all ears. What do these companies usually do with what doesn't make the QC cut?


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## E Dogg (Mar 23, 2011)

I smoked one tonight. Definitely smoke like a quality cigar and definitely ligero laced. Packed a nice punch especially for a petite corona. Had a bit of pepper with a nice tobacco taste. Ever so slight sweetness here and there on the finish. The pictures I showed before of the two cigars is the second on the left with an Oliva V #4 on the right. I have a pic with the V band on, but am having trouble loading from my phone. I will try to smoke the V tomorrow and see how they compare. I also need to find a Cain Daytona #4 and see how that compares also as it has been a long time since I've smoked one of those...

I will post pics tomorrow for sure if I can't get it from my phone...


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## Brookswphoto (Dec 25, 2008)

Cigar Noob said:


> Bit of a contradiction to say "It most definitely is not X"... and then say "nothing is confirmed". If you know another company making those exact sizes with those exact wrappers please fill us in. They are 2nds. The above pick looks damn similar. I have some Cain F lanceros and ordered that size so I will compare in a few months.
> 
> I based my decision on a lancero for less than $1.50, if it turns out to be a diamond in the rough, great. If not, not a huge risk. I am assuming based on the name you are more clued into the industry so if you have some intel I'm all ears. What do these companies usually do with what doesn't make the QC cut?


First of all, if you look at my quote, I never said "It most definitely is not X".

I am not saying that it is not a good deal, what I am saying is that there is a reason these are only $1.50 each. Could they be ok cigars? Sure. Are they just Cain F Lanceros that are unbanded? I wish...

Think of it this way. Studio Tobac has another shipment of Cain F Lanceros that is being shipped out this year. Why would they put out the same cigar at less then a 3rd of the price right before that? Also, do you really think there are so many samples that did not make the cut for the regular release that they have thousands to sell?

Is it possible these are made with some of the same tobacco as Cains? Yes. But there is SO much more to creating a cigar then just tobacco, (how it is rolled, blend when rolled etc)...For $1.50, I would expect an ok cigar, but to expect the same thing as a Cain F Lancero (for example) based on nothing other then the fact that the sizes match up and a description from the store trying to sell them is asinine.

Having said all of that, I have smoked over 4 boxes of the Cain F Lanceros over the past year, so I might buy a bundle and see how they match up 

Just my $.02.


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## Cmdio (Apr 30, 2012)

Brookswphoto said:


> First of all, if you look at my quote, I never said "It most definitely is not X".
> 
> I am not saying that it is not a good deal, what I am saying is that there is a reason these are only $1.50 each. Could they be ok cigars? Sure. Are they just Cain F Lanceros that are unbanded? I wish...
> 
> ...


Are you familiar with the meaning of the word "second" when it comes to cigars?


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## jswaykos (Oct 26, 2010)

Cmdio said:


> Are you familiar with the meaning of the word "second" when it comes to cigars?


And most factories are open about their seconds and advertise them as such. My opinion: these are Cain knock offs. Not that that's bad, per se, or that it means these won't taste good, but CI's mission is to sell you cigars, not pass along killer savings. If these were actually Cains, they would've purchase them from the factories for pennies, since we're only paying a dollar or so each. There's got to be some mark up in there for them.

But whatever. Everyone can spend their own money however they please. We all just have opinions on this matter any way, so what's the point in this bickering?


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## Brookswphoto (Dec 25, 2008)

Cmdio said:


> Are you familiar with the meaning of the word "second" when it comes to cigars?


Are you kidding???


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## mpls (Sep 7, 2012)

Brookswphoto said:


> Are you kidding???


Um...just out of curiosity, aren't you the 'Brooks' who gets paid to do reviews?


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## Brookswphoto (Dec 25, 2008)

mpls said:


> Um...just out of curiosity, aren't you the 'Brooks' who gets paid to do reviews?


I help run a site, yes...


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## mpls (Sep 7, 2012)

Brookswphoto said:


> I help run a site, yes...


Thanks Brooks, I've enjoyed reading many of your reviews along with the info your site provides.

I'll let you folks get back to the discussion at hand...


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## Brookswphoto (Dec 25, 2008)

mpls said:


> Thanks Brooks, I've enjoyed reading many of your reviews along with the info your site provides.
> 
> I'll let you folks get back to the discussion at hand...


Thanks for the comments 

BTW, I have ordered a bundle of the lanceros, and I will be doing a photographic and tasting comparison when they come in...Now I am as interested as yall are lol!


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## Reg (Dec 6, 2010)

Brookswphoto said:


> Thanks for the comments
> 
> BTW, I have ordered a bundle of the lanceros, and I will be doing a photographic and tasting comparison when they come in...Now I am as interested as yall are lol!


Blind, please.


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## E Dogg (Mar 23, 2011)

Brookswphoto said:


> Are you kidding???


I think he was serious, it just might have come off sounding arrogant. He quotes "seconds" which I think he is really curious on what you know of as far as "seconds" are concerned. I know I am. What does it really mean when something is labled as a "second"?


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## Brookswphoto (Dec 25, 2008)

The main problem is that the term "Seconds" really has no standard definition, as it seems to mean different things to different sites that are selling them. To some sites, it seems to mean that they are the same cigars, rolled by the same rollers with the same tobacco, that are just not up to snuff (either by how they look on the outside etc)...To other sites, it seems to mean that they are cigars that use (some of?) the same tobaccos...There are NO Standards, and no accountability, so sites can say pretty much whatever they want to sell something.

There is no doubt that some cigar makers sell overruns as bundle cigars (or seconds), but from what I have seen, these are usually cigars that have quite a few of them rolled in the first place (i.e. Rocky Patels etc)...As I mentioned before, the problem with a site like the one in this thread selling cigars like this is that we have no idea what they actually are, despite the fact that the sizes do seem to match up with the Cains...

This does not even take into account the fact that they could be cigars rolled using the same tobacco as the cigars they are supposed to mimic, but not by the same bunchers or rollers (so, for example, the people rolling the Cain F Lanceros have a certain way of bunching the lanceros so they taste consistent, whereas another buncher, even IF using the same tobacco, would not be as versed in the process, thus giving you a totally different blend at the end of the day, not to mention what could be an inferior product burn or draw wise).

The bottom line in my mind is this: Whlle there are undeniably times that sites use the term "seconds" to get rid of stock of cigars they can't sell, I find it VERY difficult to believe that this site has the same cigar as the Cain F Lancero (for example) without bands, especially since by all accounts, Oliva has had NO problem selling out of the the Cain F Lanceros they have to sell (which would defeat the purpose of having to call something "seconds" to get rid of them).


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## Cigar Noob (May 22, 2011)

Thanks for the detail, that's all I was looking for. I recognized the name and know you are much more informed on the industry. You are dead on about the Cain F Lancero. Those weren't in stock more than a few days from what I could tell. I lucked out and got a 5er on here. I think they are a bit too powerful for me though but for the price, it is still a perfectly rolled lancero and smokes great. 

I am truly ignorant to the 2nds market and am genuinely curious about it. Do you know what the rejection rate is with their cigars and what they typically do with them?


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## E Dogg (Mar 23, 2011)

Thanks Brooks. Do you think it's possible that what they are selling is one of the sample blends made for cain (or whoever). Don't the mfg's make different variations of one blend and then after sampling them they pick one? Maybe they made 3 or 4 different variations and had to let them age a little before picking the winner for the Cain band??? Then they have some left over stock of the blend that didn't make the cut and CI bought em all up :dunno:

I bought the #4 and the pic I showed before was one the "seconds" next to an Oliva V #4 with out the band. here is the photo of them together. 
















they look and feel identical and even smell the same, to me. The one and only difference I could see is the Oliva has a nice triple cap while the second doesn't. I'm gonna smoke the Oliva tonight and see how they compare and then try to get a cain daytona #4


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## Engineer99 (Aug 4, 2011)

Hey Brooks, Halfwheel still "owes" me a cigar from a contest back in February...Let's see...with interest compounded daily, my calculations tell me the one My Father robusto shakes out to a box of Cohiba Gran Reservas....:spit:ound:


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## Brookswphoto (Dec 25, 2008)

Email me at [email protected], and we will take care of it.


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## oilburner (Sep 23, 2012)

I got a pack of the #4's and a pack of the robustos delivered today. I picked the D's because I'm a wuss and I don't really like feeling sick after smoking.

Construction on them looks very good, double cap, packed well, draw is about perfect. They smell young, with a tiny bit of ammonia. I'm smoking a robusto now, rest of them will go in the freezers and then for a nap.

Flavor seems good, but it's been a while since I've had a daytona, so not much to compare to other than old notes. My notes from when I did smoke one don't have a detailed flavor profile. I had written that it was spicy, with some heavy wood notes. Also my notes from the daytona mentioned draw problems. The 2nd has a similar flavor, but great draw.


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## Cmdio (Apr 30, 2012)

E Dogg said:


> I think he was serious, it just might have come off sounding arrogant. He quotes "seconds" which I think he is really curious on what you know of as far as "seconds" are concerned. I know I am. What does it really mean when something is labled as a "second"?


My wording was not very clear and left me looking like an arrogant jackwagon (which I often am, but this was not my intent at that time) when I made that post. I meant to ask what you understood the term "second" to mean.

I had understood them to be cigars with minor cosmetic issues (sun spots, wrapper shade not completely what the manufacturer wanted, etc), that they do not want to attach their company name and reputation to as to not lower expected quality in the public image. I now see there are all sorts of meanings to the term.


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## Wicked_Rhube (Jul 29, 2012)

So, I smoked an "F" this morning and I'm just finishing an "H" right now. I'll put proper reviews with pics in the non-hab forum shortly, but I wanted throw a quick comment here. If you at all like Nicaraguan cigars I suggest grabbing some of these. Both types smoked very nice, tons of smoke, and tasted great. For $1.66 a pop I can't see you being disappointed.


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## Cigar Noob (May 22, 2011)

Got mine in today. I have some Cain F lancero tubos so I compared.

- First major difference is size. I think the ligero laced comes in at a 40 rg.
- Ligero laced has an oily wrapper, and the darkening on the wrapper that seems to be from the filler as it ages.
- smell is different, a bit more sweet
- - A few surface blemishes, a few spots with a thicker vein, but looks promising.

I never smoke a cigar right away but I think I'll fire this up tonight!

(found another forum where someone smoked one of these and swears they are Cain Fs)


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## nillorset (Sep 21, 2012)

I get my d torpedoes and the other 75 various sticks I ordered tomorrow.. And I can't wait...


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## Cigar Noob (May 22, 2011)

smoked it tonight. For something that took a 2000 mile trip and arrived where we are still in the high 90s, it was damn good. The only other cigar I did that with was a Diesel UC and it was atrocious but after 6+ month is very good. Will probably let it rest a few months before firing up the next one. Whatever it is, for a $1.50 lancero, it is good deal. It lacks the power that the F has and is more like a V profile with respect to power/ligero. 

I'd love to see a pick of the maduro torpedo. The Cain maduro is by far the most toothy wrapper I've ever seen and is very distinct looking.


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## Wicked_Rhube (Jul 29, 2012)

Cigar Noob said:


> For something that took a 2000 mile trip and arrived where we are still in the high 90s, it was damn good.


Yeah, I couldn't believe how nice they smoked ROTT.


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## Brookswphoto (Dec 25, 2008)

Ok, I promised a comparison, so here it is.

Note: this is only for the lancero, as that is all I bought.

I hate to bust anyone's bubble, but these are NOT the same cigar as the Cain F Lancero. I base this on a few points:

1. The wrapper is close to the same color, but has a TOTALLY different texture. The cain f is toothy, while the bundle is smooth as silk. Not even close. This alone proves the point. (I will post a pic tonight)
2. The bundle seems to be rolled looser, and seems to be a 40 RG instead of a 38 RG.
3. The Cain F is triple capped, while the bundle is not (that I can see)
4. The Cain F is a smoother, more balanced, and more flavorful smoke, while the bundle is harsher, and just does not have (even close) the flavor profile
5. The Bundle's smoke is anemic, while the Cain F is white and billowy
6. Both had great construction, both draw and burn

The Bottom Line: NOT a Cain F lancero. Having said that, the bundle I think would make a decent stick, esp for the price, if given a bit of age.

Photos later.


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## jswaykos (Oct 26, 2010)

Brookswphoto said:


> Ok, I promised a comparison, so here it is.
> 
> Note: this is only for the lancero, as that is all I bought.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the comparison! This sorta confirms my suspicions that these are purposely meant to APPEAR to be Cain 2nds when really they're just a knock off. Like you said in the end, it still doesn't necessarily mean they're BAD, just not what everyone is hoping they are.

Shame on CI/Cigar.com and their reps, though. They're purposely "strongly hinting" to people I know over emails, too, that these are Cain 2nds.

Two things to remember: 1) Never trust a salesman and 2) If something seems to good to be true, it usually is.


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## nillorset (Sep 21, 2012)

to do this comparison fair.. I did 2 things... I ordered a box of "Oliva Cain Daytona Torpedo's (6.0" x 54)" and a pack of the Nicaraguan Ligero-Laced 2nds Liga 'D' Torpedo (6.0" x 54).

































see the pics.. you probability don't even know which one is which... anywho.. Over the course of a 6 hours I smoked both and let me tell you..

I cant speak for all of the Nicaraguan Ligero-Laced 2nds just the Liga 'D' Torpedo and all I can say is wow... the 2nds i had confirmed to be Cain. The flavors are exactly alike.. burn, draw, smell, construction,.. etc..

The draw was awesome.. both were very flavorful (same flavor) my conclusion is that these are in fact Cain 2nds. heck... they both look like they were both rolled by the same person.

the one diff i did find is that the Cains have slightly more filler in them and this is why they probably became 2nds..


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## Brookswphoto (Dec 25, 2008)

nillorset said:


> to do this comparison fair.. I did 2 things... I ordered a box of "Oliva Cain Daytona Torpedo's (6.0" x 54)" and a pack of the Nicaraguan Ligero-Laced 2nds Liga 'D' Torpedo (6.0" x 54).
> 
> View attachment 40920
> View attachment 40921
> ...


Wow, that bottom one in the middle pic looks like it is 1/2 inch shorter than the top one? did you confirm they are the same size?


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## jswaykos (Oct 26, 2010)

Brookswphoto said:


> Wow, that bottom one in the middle pic looks like it is 1/2 inch shorter than the top one? did you confirm they are the same size?


Was thinking the same thing... those sticks are clearly different sizes...


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## nillorset (Sep 21, 2012)

jswaykos said:


> Was thinking the same thing... those sticks are clearly different sizes...


They are actually the same size.. I think the way i was taking the picture made it appear that one was bigger than the other... however they are both exactly the same size. When i get an a chance i will take another picture showing them side by side at a better angle. :mrgreen:


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## jurgenph (Jun 29, 2011)

jswaykos said:


> Was thinking the same thing... those sticks are clearly different sizes...


maybe that's why they are seconds... didn't meet the size requirements to be "firsts"

J.


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## jswaykos (Oct 26, 2010)

nillorset said:


> They are actually the same size.. I think the way i was taking the picture made it appear that one was bigger than the other... however they are both exactly the same size. When i get an a chance i will take another picture showing them side by side at a better angle. :mrgreen:


It's an optical illusion! Which line is longer? Haha...

I've talked to one other person who ordered the lanceros, and he also thinks they're 'off' from the regular release. Not that they're bad, per se, just not a Cain F lancero. Bottom line is that it doesn't matter what anyone thinks, if you like it, great. If not, cool. But there will never be a way to tell for sure what they are unless we hear directly from the source. It's just my opinion that we would've known by now if they were 'real' seconds. As with all opinions, though, everyone is entitled to his/her own.


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## Brookswphoto (Dec 25, 2008)

BTW, here is the photo of the two wrappers on the lanceros...(Sorry for the crappy pic, but you can easily see that the Cain F (left) is a much more toothy wrapper, while the Bundle is totally smooth to the touch...


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## jswaykos (Oct 26, 2010)

Not seeing a pic, Brooks...


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## Engineer99 (Aug 4, 2011)

After smoking 3 of the "F" lanceros, I find them to be pretty consistently enjoyable, regardless of what they are. Given some time to dry out and stabilize, I think they will be really great in a year or so, as far as my standards go. I'm sure Brooks has a much higher bar, given his commitment to smoking and reviewing far more high end cigars than I will ever smoke or even read about, but for me, these fit the bill nicely as far as a full bodied great tasting lancero that cost me two bucks and smokes far above it's price point.


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## Brookswphoto (Dec 25, 2008)

Engineer99 said:


> After smoking 3 of the "F" lanceros, I find them to be pretty consistently enjoyable, regardless of what they are. Given some time to dry out and stabilize, I think they will be really great in a year or so, as far as my standards go. I'm sure Brooks has a much higher bar, given his commitment to smoking and reviewing far more high end cigars than I will ever smoke or even read about, but for me, these fit the bill nicely as far as a full bodied great tasting lancero that cost me two bucks and smokes far above it's price point.


Please note: Most of my post was only concerned with the contention that these were Cain F Lanceros (only cheaper, and sans bands)...That was what I was disputing, NOT if these are good cigars for the money (which I think they are, honestly).


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## Engineer99 (Aug 4, 2011)

Brookswphoto said:


> Please note: Most of my post was only concerned with the contention that these were Cain F Lanceros (only cheaper, and sans bands)...That was what I was disputing, NOT if these are good cigars for the money (which I think they are, honestly).


Agreed. I like them for what they are regardless of the marketing and sales angles. Hey, for two bucks a well made and tasty cigar, they knock it outta the park IMHO. A cheap, well made, and darn tasty lancero will always be welcome in my smoking rotation.

Your input, as a connoisseur, industry insider, and experienced reviewer, is valuable to us, and I look forward to hearing more from you on this forum.


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## nillorset (Sep 21, 2012)

Gang,

Here are the new PIC's i promised.. from the responses i got on these... as you can see they are the same size. I took these with my digital cam, the previos pics you all see where from a cell phone cam.
"Oliva Cain Daytona Torpedo's (6.0" x 54)" and "Nicaraguan Ligero-Laced 2nds Liga 'D' Torpedo (6.0" x 54)".


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## GruntmaN (May 18, 2011)

I believe they may be Daytonas on the Lancero.


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