# Semi-plain box question



## pistol (Mar 23, 2006)

I have a question for you habanos experts out there; I have a box of H Up lonsdales with 6 years on them right now, and I want to put most of the box down for another 4 years. I know cabinet selected cigars are of a little better quality for aging and I also know that cigars generally age better in cabinets. However, these cigars are housed in a semi-plain cardboard box. So my question is this, provided that the temp and rh are the same with both options, is it better to age these guys in their original box (in the cooler) or should I put them down in my extra 50ct desktop humi (w/o the original box)? Thanks
-Pete


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## opus (Jun 21, 2005)

pistol said:


> I have a question for you habanos experts out there; I have a box of H Up lonsdales with 6 years on them right now, and I want to put most of the box down for another 4 years. I know cabinet selected cigars are of a little better quality for aging and I also know that cigars generally age better in cabinets. However, these cigars are housed in a *semi-plain cardboard box*. So my question is this, provided that the temp and rh are the same with both options, is it better to age these guys in their original box (in the cooler) or should I put them down in my extra 50ct desktop humi (w/o the original box)? Thanks
> -Pete


 I have never heard of a semi plain cardboard box being original packaging, perhaps it is really spanish cedar. If it is cardboard i would get them out ASAP, although if they have been in there for 6 years it probably won't matter at this point. If it is cedar leave them in there and put them in the cooler. You probably won't open the cooler as much and when you do open it, you won't be opening the box. In the desk top they will be exposed and potentially rolled around every time you open the humi. They also will be exposed to whatever other cigars you have in there, more of a chance to get beetles, or having the other cigars influence the flavor of the lonsdales. BTW, I am no expert.


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## pistol (Mar 23, 2006)

opusxox said:


> I have never heard of a semi plain cardboard box being original packaging, perhaps it is really spanish cedar. If it is cardboard i would get them out ASAP, although if they have been in there for 6 years it probably won't matter at this point. If it is cedar leave them in there and put them in the cooler. You probably won't open the cooler as much and when you do open it, you won't be opening the box. In the desk top they will be exposed and potentially rolled around every time you open the humi. They also will be exposed to whatever other cigars you have in there, more of a chance to get beetles, or having the other cigars influence the flavor of the lonsdales.


My bad, I think that type of box is just called (that's what I've heard anyhow) a semi plain cardboard box. It's not just plain cardboard! It has spanish cedar on the bottom, I just meant that it's not a slide lid cabinet. I guess I should have been more clear, it's the original box from H Upman, it has a cedar bottom and a flip up cardboard top... As for the cigars rolling around or being tainted by other cigars, I wouldn't put any other cigars in the desktop humi, and honestly, I'd never open it up or move it. If I aged them in there, I'd do just that and put it in my basement where it's nice and cool along with my coolerdor. I was just wondering if the small desktop that is completely lined with Spanish Cedar would be better for aging than the original box that is only lined with span cedar on the bottom. Basically that little desktop is an extra humi and isn't holding any cigars right now. Thanks for making me clear that up Opus


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## n2advnture (Aug 9, 2004)

I believe it's called a "dress box". Wood wrapped in paper.

For long term aging, a spanish cedar lined box is best (IMHO). Some stock SLBs are all spanish cedar.

~M


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

I think in the original box in you're cooler would be a better choice IMO. If you want to really slow the aging put the box in a zip-lock bag and then in you're cooler.


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## galaga (Sep 18, 2003)

I agree with Skip, I'd leave them in the original box and put them in the cooler. You might take the spacer out of the lower level and give them some room if they're still tight together. You could also get a Slide top cedar box, I find ERDM makes a good one that I can get at my local B&M for a $1, and put them in there. The cooler will be more stable IMHO.


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## opus (Jun 21, 2005)

I would leave it in the original box. Like N2advnture says spanish cedar lining is preferred, but these have already aged in the original box for 6 years.


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## Bruce (Dec 31, 1999)

What Fred said:
Original box, heavy ziplock bag with the air expelled from the bag.


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## pistol (Mar 23, 2006)

Thanks for your quick responses, I have a couple of cabinets that I'd like to put down for a long nap as well. I'm going to get some of those 2 gallon ziplock bags to rest them in and then I'm going to get drunk and hide the cooler from myself so that I'm not tempted to steal from my future enjoyment! Edit- Last quick question for you fellas, since the boxes and cabinets will be sealed and void of any outside humidity, do I need to periodically open the bags in the cooler to allow the cigars to "breath" or is the moisture that's all ready in the cigars enough for them to withstand long term aging? I understand that I don't want to expose the cigars to too much oxygen as that will rob from the subtle nuances that will develop with the aging, but does that apply true to humidity as well?


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

I like to always keep cigars in their original packaging, regardless of what it is.


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## ToddziLLa (Oct 17, 2005)

mosesbotbol said:


> I like to always keep cigars in their original packaging, regardless of what it is.


:tpd: They came that way for a reason. Under no circumstances would someone ship you cigars in something that was meant to be switched out.


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## One Lonely Smoker (Jan 21, 2005)

It is a common misconception that the semi-plain boxes are cardboard. When you get your guts up enough to strip the paper off of a perfectly good cigar box just to see what's inside, you will see that the box is actually a thin plywood made of cedar.


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## cvm4 (Sep 10, 2005)

Always gotta keep it in original packaging :tpd:


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## coppertop (Dec 29, 2003)

pistol said:


> Edit- Last quick question for you fellas, since the boxes and cabinets will be sealed and void of any outside humidity, do I need to periodically open the bags in the cooler to allow the cigars to "breath" or is the moisture that's all ready in the cigars enough for them to withstand long term aging? I understand that I don't want to expose the cigars to too much oxygen as that will rob from the subtle nuances that will develop with the aging, but does that apply true to humidity as well?


Pete, no you shouldn't open them specifically to allow them to "breath"; however I would check on them from time to time, see how they are coming. Any other questions, or a more detailed explanation you know my number


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## dayplanner (Dec 11, 1997)

pistol said:


> I have a question for you habanos experts out there; I have a box of H Up lonsdales with 6 years on them right now, and I want to put most of the box down for another 4 years. I know cabinet selected cigars are of a little better quality for aging and I also know that cigars generally age better in cabinets. However, these cigars are housed in a semi-plain cardboard box. So my question is this, provided that the temp and rh are the same with both options, is it better to age these guys in their original box (in the cooler) or should I put them down in my extra 50ct desktop humi (w/o the original box)? Thanks
> -Pete


Pete,

Cabinet selection cigars were specially selected and of a different quality than cigars in semi-plain packaging but only up to 1997. After that point, cabinet cigars were constructed no differently and used the same toobacco as those in semi-plain. Since your box has 6 years now, that means it is a 2000 code and thus identical in cabinet or semi-plain packaging.

On the point of aging, on the intermediate term (next 4 years), it would be best to store them in their original packaging undisturbed in the bottom of your cooler.

On the cabinet storage, ziploc bags would be fine as would wrapping them up in Saran wrap. Do not use generic plastic wrap as that is simply thin polyethylene. Saran (polyvinylidene chloride) is a much more effective oxygen and moisture barrier and will thus promote slower, more graceful aging. Of course, this is assuming the cabs are already well-equilibrated to roughly 65F/65%. Do not periodically open them to "breathe." What you want is for the film or bag to greatly buffer the oxygen and moisture vapor exchange and in effect, slow down time by slowing down the chemical reactions involved in aging tobacco.

Wilkey


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## ESP (Jan 1, 2000)

Not sure if I agree that cab Vs. dress boxes had different quality (mix) pre or post '97, of course they do age different due to different packaging and this has been discussed many times over! However there were blend changes on "some" vitolas sometime after '94 (boxes also changed their designation from Cubatobaco to habanos SA. Also there was the Habana 2000 of '99-2000, and death of el corojo sometime after '98, but blend differences between dress box and cabinet - not too sure I can agree. Of course, for what its worth, this is just an opinion! 

As for keeping the box on bottom of the coolerdor or cabinet for the next 4 yrs I again have to disagree because we don't live in a perfect world! and keeping an ideally constant temperature could be very difficult (and costly at most locations). Therefore the RH usually varies a bit due to the Temp. differences of day & night, causing the bottom row becoming subject to more moisture at cooler night temperatures (cool air sinks to bottom), that's why many people rotate their boxes in whatever'dors (or cigars in desktops) once in a while - I do it 2-3 times a year where my room temperature varies a bit. On the other hand in my basement, I don't rotate and they age OKthere! 

just my :2



3x5card said:


> Pete,
> 
> Cabinet selection cigars were specially selected and of a different quality than cigars in semi-plain packaging but only up to 1997. After that point, cabinet cigars were constructed no differently and used the same toobacco as those in semi-plain. Since your box has 6 years now, that means it is a 2000 code and thus identical in cabinet or semi-plain packaging.
> 
> ...


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## LasciviousXXX (Oct 12, 2004)

ESP said:


> Not sure if I agree that cab Vs. dress boxes had different quality (mix) pre or post '97, of course they do age different due to different packaging and this has been discussed many times over! However there were blend changes on "some" vitolas sometime after '94 (boxes also changed their designation from Cubatobaco to habanos SA. Also there was the Habana 2000 of '99-2000, and death of el corojo sometime after '98, but blend differences between dress box and cabinet - not too sure I can agree. Of course, for what its worth, this is just an opinion!
> 
> As for keeping the box on bottom of the coolerdor or cabinet for the next 4 yrs I again have to disagree because we don't live in a perfect world! and keeping an ideally constant temperature could be very difficult (and costly at most locations). Therefore the RH usually varies a bit due to the Temp. differences of day & night, causing the bottom row becoming subject to more moisture at cooler night temperatures (cool air sinks to bottom), that's why many people rotate their boxes in whatever'dors (or cigars in desktops) once in a while - I do it 2-3 times a year where my room temperature varies a bit. On the other hand in my basement, I don't rotate and they age OKthere!
> 
> just my :2


Tons of very good information contained in the above post, we would all do well to let that info sink in a bit...


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## pistol (Mar 23, 2006)

LasciviousXXX said:


> Tons of very good information contained in the above post, we would all do well to let that info sink in a bit...


I'm with the naked pilates intructor, Thanks for all of the great info esp. 3x5card and ESP. I've only been in my new house for 4 months now and from what I can tell, the temperature has stayed between 60 and 64 degrees in the basement irregardless of the temperature outside. I've got a small fan in my coolador to keep the rh from being significantly higher toward the bottom of the cooler (the heavier moist air tends to settle, correct?). However, that being said, I will still probably rotate the cigars annually inside the cooler. Again, thanks for all the advice- it looks like some heavy hitters who don't post much decided to help me out, thanks fellas!
-Pete


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## dayplanner (Dec 11, 1997)

ESP said:


> Not sure if I agree that cab Vs. dress boxes had different quality (mix) pre or post '97, of course they do age different due to different packaging and this has been discussed many times over! However there were blend changes on "some" vitolas sometime after '94 (boxes also changed their designation from Cubatobaco to habanos SA. Also there was the Habana 2000 of '99-2000, and death of el corojo sometime after '98, but blend differences between dress box and cabinet - not too sure I can agree. Of course, for what its worth, this is just an opinion!
> 
> As for keeping the box on bottom of the coolerdor or cabinet for the next 4 yrs I again have to disagree because we don't live in a perfect world! and keeping an ideally constant temperature could be very difficult (and costly at most locations). Therefore the RH usually varies a bit due to the Temp. differences of day & night, causing the bottom row becoming subject to more moisture at cooler night temperatures (cool air sinks to bottom), that's why many people rotate their boxes in whatever'dors (or cigars in desktops) once in a while - I do it 2-3 times a year where my room temperature varies a bit. On the other hand in my basement, I don't rotate and they age OKthere!
> 
> just my :2


Hi ESP,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this. Allow me to respond.

Aging effects due to the packaging are a different matter altogether and not what I'm thinking about. You're right, that issue has been debated at many levels, many times. There is also the issue of the many tobacco changes in this period but that is peripheral to the central question regarding construction of cigars for cabinets.

In 1997 and prior, cigars in cabinet were produced at far lower ratios relative to those in semi-plain. This is not the case today. But back then, they were of genuinely different construction. The primary difference being the use of larger leaf with which to roll the bunch. A larger portion of leaf tip was removed in the final trimming resulting in a cigar with a more substantial foot. This also affected the perceived richness of the blend (which was substantively the same aside from leaf size).

I cannot take credit for this research as this information was proffered by someone with far more experience than I could ever have. However, I've considered the weight of his evidence and it is inescapable.

I'm glad we disagree about the cooler storage. This gives us an opportunity to dice this up a bit for those who do it.

If you use a good quality cooler, then we are counting on it to do the job for which it was designed: buffer the internal temperature from the external temperature. What this means in a cyclical case (i.e. a cooler sitting in your basement where there are oscillations between daytime highs and nighttime lows) is that the peaks of these swings will be reduced. For example, if the basement temperature swings from a high of 67 to a low of 62, then the temperature inside the cooler might only be swinging from say 65 down to 63 or 64. In this small range of temperature, the humidity will vary very little. More precisely, the saturation of the air will vary only slightly.

I do not rotate my boxes but then I keep the coolers absolutely jam packed allowing as little air space as possible. That said, there's no harm done by rotating the boxes a few times a year as ESP does. And besides, it gives one the chance to gaze longingly at forgotten friends and breathe in the sweet, intoxicating vapors of gently aging Havana cigars. 

Pistol,
If you have the room to use an Oust fan or something like that, then I think you'll be fine. I would, but there's just no room.  In fact, most of the time I don't even use a humidification element. I drop in a tub of PG/Water a few times a year and I am good to go in the deep sleep cooler.

Wilkey


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## ESP (Jan 1, 2000)

3x5card said:


> Hi ESP,
> 
> ...In 1997 and prior, cigars in cabinet were produced at far lower ratios relative to those in semi-plain. This is not the case today. But back then, they were of genuinely different construction. The primary difference being the use of larger leaf with which to roll the bunch. A larger portion of leaf tip was removed in the final trimming resulting in a cigar with a more substantial foot. ....I cannot take credit for this research as this information was proffered by someone with far more experience than I could ever have. However, I've considered the weight of his evidence and it is inescapable....
> 
> Wilkey


I guess we can agree to disagree! Of course it is good to have someone you can trust and learn from, most of us have met people whom their knowledge of the leaf is outstanding. However, imo the best of all opinions are the ones we accumulate on our own, based on our own experience.

I think it is easy to get confused on this issue of cab vs. dressbox - assuming all storage conditions are the same - after say 10-20 yrs the cab results in a different quality smoke, the draw is different since they are not jam packed, the roundness vs. the square feels different in the mouth, the slower maturation process in the cabinet results in a different animal specially the longer we age them etc.

However, I still cannot remember seeing any info. about "use of larger leaves that result in a more substantial foot on the vitolas from cabinets". Although I don't remember paying much attention trying to dissect the differences back in early 90's (I was only 3 yrs old back then! LOL) , it is worth mentioning that the Cubans had many bad years with poor economy and hurricanes in the 80's and early 90's. For instance, there was even shortage of boxes, packaging material and many basic needs to such degree that cigars would stay un-packed, or shortage of DC's and Robustos in early 90's - due to shortage of quality larger leaves - that alone would contradict what you heard about use of larger leaves for cabs back then. If they had good quality leaves I don't think they would fuss over grading them even further into cab vs. dress box while the very basics were lacking then and the factories had marching orders to produce revenue for the revolution!! Of course during good years I can see the possibilities of introducing special this and special that as a marketing ploy, but pre 97 the Cubans didn't have too many of the good years, for example even Zino Davidoff had so many problems with quality that he claimed burning 100,000 poor quality Davidoffs in one go! (ouch) ,, that's why I cannot perceive why so much attention would've been paid to certain details to produce a cabinet of the same vitola while the very basics were lacking (when Soviets pulled out of Cuba and stopped their aid, Cubans hit rock bottom economically). Perhaps your friend is speaking of a certain experience in a certain year - say he saw cabs being made in a certain factory, but to apply that generally to all pre-'97 Havanas is a bit of a tall order (imho).

Sorry for rambling, but wife and kids are out and I have a bit of time on my own! I think I said enough (or more than enough) on the subject of dress boxes! This hopefully will be my last post on this subject! Now time to decide what to smoke tonight! Cabinet or dress box! (I think I'll go for the jar!)


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

Some very interesting info here for sure. I've never heard of a difference in cab. vs dress box other than the packaging either. I've only been smoking Habanos around 10 years though. I have used multiple coolers the last couple years as opposed to one large cabinet earlier and have noticed a big diffference on how my cigars taste and age. Much better! I can imagine what 5-10 years would do. Much more stable temps and humidity plus they are much more airtight than a standard humi.


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## pistol (Mar 23, 2006)

I really appreciate all of the input. Unfortunately, I'm relatively new to habanos (I've smoked several here and there for about 4 years now) and so most of my knowledge, as limited as it is, is theoretical. That being said, lately,I find myself turning into a "Min Ron Nee parrot"! MRN refers to cab cigars as being "cabinet selected," so this does lead me to believe that there is a difference in the cigars that are banded and packaged in the dress boxes versus the cabs (at least thru time of publication). I'm interested to know exactly what the difference is! Unfortunately, I'm out of town right now and can't go running to the book! If anyone has a definitive answer on the difference between cabinet and dress box cigars, by all means, please do share. 
-Pete


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## dayplanner (Dec 11, 1997)

ESP,

I apologize for taking so long to respond to your considered reply. I'm pleased to discuss not just cigars but philosophy 

Wow, You were really 3 years old in the early nineties? Way to make me feel like a geezer, I was married and working at my first engineering job back then. Thanks a lot! 

You bring up some very good points. Points which are completely consistent and logical. The fact remains that Cuba is a place of paradoxes where logic and reason do not always hold sway. I have never been to Cuba but this man has and he has had a relationship with those in the Havana for many years. In this case, I need not and cannot draw from personal experience but the aggregation of information from several sources leads me to accept this as factually accurate.

Fredster,
We're in the same boat. Airtight is better for aging.

Pistol,
I responded to that question earlier in this thread.

Wilkey


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## ESP (Jan 1, 2000)

3x5card said:


> ESP,
> 
> ....
> You bring up some very good points. Points which are completely consistent and logical. The fact remains that Cuba is a place of paradoxes where logic and reason do not always hold sway. I have never been to Cuba but this man has and he has had a relationship with those in the Havana for many years. In this case, I need not and cannot draw from personal experience but the aggregation of information from several sources leads me to accept this as factually accurate....
> ...


3x5card,

No worries my friend and no need for apologies. Sorry for the late reply, but you will see why, basically, I was waiting to meet a bunch of very good friends in London. To clarify this matter for myself, I asked one person whom I trust specially when it comes to authenticity, production and in short "everything vintage", this guy authenticates vintage cigars for the largest cigar auction house there is. Actually, I trust him so much that I bid mucho dollars every time on cigars he has authenticated! (incidentally, he has just quit his job after 17 years and started another as wine specialist and will only deal in vintage cigars in a private capacity). To his credit, in the past several years, each auction he has conducted have fetched mid-high six figure sums (in USD). I think if many old geezers (me included!) trust this dude with thousands (and sometimes tens of thousands) of their hard earned cash, there must be a degree of knowledge this person has achieved to earn their respect! 

Anyway, it was an occasion on the night of the 18th (after an auction which I got a few good bargains and also missed a few even better ones ) to ask him this pre '97 theory of your friend's, and he confirmed the same thing I had mentioned earlier: to begin with, there is no difference in the quality of a vitola that goes inside a cabinet Vs. dress box, only reason he could think of, was again the same: since cigars age better in cabinets, once aged a bit, it may create an impression that cigars in cabinets were better to start with. He further confirmed that each time he saw the process in any of the Havana factories, cigars got sorted according to color and then boxed. I know I have not added anything substantial to what has already been said, its basically one opinion against another, and I am sure if I were you, I would still trust my own friend over some ramblings in a public forum! However, if you need to know whom I've asked this question from, you can PM me.


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## Kayak_Rat (Nov 28, 2005)

Wow. I fell like I have just been shoved through a crash course in cigar aging 101. I have found both views very informative and want to thank you guys for the information.


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## dayplanner (Dec 11, 1997)

ESP said:


> 3x5card,
> 
> No worries my friend and no need for apologies. Sorry for the late reply, but you will see why, basically, I was waiting to meet a bunch of very good friends in London. To clarify this matter for myself, I asked one person whom I trust specially when it comes to authenticity, production and in short "everything vintage", this guy authenticates vintage cigars for the largest cigar auction house there is. Actually, I trust him so much that I bid mucho dollars every time on cigars he has authenticated! (incidentally, he has just quit his job after 17 years and started another as wine specialist and will only deal in vintage cigars in a private capacity). To his credit, in the past several years, each auction he has conducted have fetched mid-high six figure sums (in USD). I think if many old geezers (me included!) trust this dude with thousands (and sometimes tens of thousands) of their hard earned cash, there must be a degree of knowledge this person has achieved to earn their respect!
> 
> Anyway, it was an occasion on the night of the 18th (after an auction which I got a few good bargains and also missed a few even better ones ) to ask him this pre '97 theory of your friend's, and he confirmed the same thing I had mentioned earlier: to begin with, there is no difference in the quality of a vitola that goes inside a cabinet Vs. dress box, only reason he could think of, was again the same: since cigars age better in cabinets, once aged a bit, it may create an impression that cigars in cabinets were better to start with. He further confirmed that each time he saw the process in any of the Havana factories, cigars got sorted according to color and then boxed. I know I have not added anything substantial to what has already been said, its basically one opinion against another, and I am sure if I were you, I would still trust my own friend over some ramblings in a public forum! However, if you need to know whom I've asked this question from, you can PM me.


Thank you very much, ESP. I will be sending yo a PM and I can provide my source as well.

This has been most stimulating! Of course I am open to all poosibilities.

Best,
Wilkey


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## yourchoice (Jun 25, 2006)

Wow, this thread is an awesome read. Definitely worthy of a bump, IMO. A two-year late thanks for the perspectives shared.


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## pnoon (Jun 8, 2005)

yourchoice said:


> Wow, this thread is an awesome read. Definitely worthy of a bump, IMO. A two-year late thanks for the perspectives shared.


And a good reason why newer members are strongly encouraged to search and just plain read.

Gems such as this are a goldmine of information for those new to cigars.


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## dayplanner (Dec 11, 1997)

Great read!


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## kgoings (Apr 22, 2008)

Great read! *subscribed so I can find at a later date much easier!*


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

I've read that cabinet cigars are the middle colored cigars when sorted for packaging. Somone told my old girlfriend (when she visited Cuba in 2001) that cabinets are the first selected cigars from the sorting to be packaged. This could be one in the same? Cabinets are my first choice if there's a choice available; they are rounder and the wooden box is a more pleasent experience to open than a dress box. Dress boxes are better for stocking up as they take less room in the humidor which can be the deciding factor for some people.


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## One Lonely Smoker (Jan 21, 2005)

ToddziLLa said:


> :tpd: They came that way for a reason. Under no circumstances would someone ship you cigars in something that was meant to be switched out.


I don't really agree with this statement much, and of course, I mean no offense, but semi-plain boxes are not the best place to store cigars, they DO come that way, but the REASON they come that way is cost and tradition, not in the best interest of the long term preservation of the cigars. Given the two choices, I would select leave them in the box over toss em in the humidor, but moreover, I would find a solid cedar cabinet of the right size and store them in that. 
BTW, semi plain boxes are thin spanish cedar plywood covered with paste and paper. 
If I intend to age smokes for myself, they stay in their original box. Once the box is sampled more than a few times, the remaining contents all go into a cedar cab. I think that this retains more of the strong punchiness I desire over a longer period of time. Basically it's different strokes.


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