# Analytical Method Differentiates Cuban from Non-Cuban Tobacco



## dayplanner (Dec 11, 1997)

Hi guys,

Lately I've been curious about the science and chemistry behind the Cuban cigars we enjoy so much. And, having access to an online research library, I've been able to indulge myself. 

As enthusiasts and aficionados, we live in the sensual world. The language we use when talking about our hobby is descriptive, colorful and can even approach the poetic. But on the other side of the leaf, there are people to whom tobacco is a job. These people are the makers of tobacco products, scientists interested in tobacco husbandry and members of government agencies charged with preserving tobacco products tax income. These people are intensely concerned with aspects of tobacco that we might never become aware of even after a lifetime of smoking. Still, their work can often indirectly affect our enjoyment of cigars. So, pull up a chair, pour a tall one, and spark up your favorite stick and join me as I guide you through the mysterious underworld and backwaters of tobacco science.

The first article up for analysis is one that some of you might have heard about in the popular press. It concerns an issue that is near and dear to us; the authentication of Cuban cigars. However, while we're concerned with insuring that the cigars we purchase are the real deal, there are others to whom the issue of authentication is much more weighty. In this case, it is the Canada Customs and Revenue Agency and the concern is with tax revenues. For those who have traveled to the Great White North and purchased cigars there as I have, you're well acquainted with the rapacious taxes on Cuban cigars. It is in the government's interest to insure that every purchase of a Habanos product involves authentic goods imported by Havana House (the authorized distributor of Cuban cigars in Canada) precisely because these taxes are collected.

Without further ado, let's get on with the exposé.

*Original Citation*
_"Characterization of Cigar Tobaccos by Gas Chromatographic/Mass Spectrometric Analysis of Nonvolatile Organic Acids: Application to the Authentication of Cuban Cigars"_
by: Lay-Keow Ng, Michel Hupé, Micheline Vanier, and Dennis Moccia
in: Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry, 2001, volume 49, pages 1132-1138

From the introduction:
_"Cuban cigars are acknowledged as among the finest in the world. Illegal sales of smuggled or counterfeit Cuban cigars have sprung up in recent years to meet the high demand for the commodity...such activities result in the loss of millions of dollars in national revenues."_

*Problems statement:*
Develop a quick and reliable method to differentiate cigars of Cuban origin from cigars using tobacco from other countries.

*Theoretical Basis:*
Tobacco contains two signature chemical compounds _(nicotine and solanone)_ in addition to a potpourri of other biochemicals. By turning leaf into cigars this mash of "stuff" undergoes a transformation into a characteristic chemical "profile" that reflects:
1. the genetics of the tobacco plant
2. the agricultural conditions and processes experienced by the plant _(soil, fertilization, weather)_
3. the processing conditions and history experienced by the tobacco _(curing and fermenting techniques)_

_Why should this work for Cuban cigars?_
1. The Cubans tightly control their seed and tobacco strain resources. As one of their largest revenue sources (behind sugar and tourism) and as a result of historical disasters due to Blue Mold, they conduct ongoing research into developing varieties of tobacco with disease resistance and yield in mind. Nobody can just plant seeds and grow leaf. Farmers are given live seedlings by the _Station of Tobacco_ and they are not allowed to let plants go to seed. As a result, the genetics of Cuban tobacco are highly uniform.

2. Much has been said about the contribution of the Cuban climatic conditions and the legendary Vuelta Abajo soil to the quintessential character of the Havana cigar. From the smoker's perspective, this debate has no resolution. However, for the purposes of this analytical technique, this isolation and high degree of control over the husbandry _(processes of growing and cultivation)_ of tobacco provides the consistency that is critical for success.

3. The processing of tobacco, though carried out in relatively primitive conditions, is precisely monitored and well practiced after decades of refinement. Curing, fermenting, and aging are managed with great consistency of technique. This lends yet another dimension of regularity that is essential for this analysis.

*The Target:*
The authors of this study selected a group of _organic acids_ around which to develop a fingerprint profile. These were compounds such as _glyceric_ and _malic acids_ and bear no relation to nasty inorganic acids like hydrochloric and sulfuric. I won't go into the reasons why this class of chemicals were selected other than to say that the relative amounts of these have been used by other researchers to identify other types of tobacco.

*The Technique:*
They selected the technique of gas chromatography coupled with mass spectrometry or GC/MS. This is a common and powerful technique that can do two things critical to solving this particular challenge. 
1. GC is able to separate the various organic acids in the leaf extract.
2. MS is able to identify those separated components.

In essence, they obtained cigars, disassembled them, ground up the leaves and extracted the target chemicals for analysis and then subjected them to GC/MS for separation and identification.

*Materials:*
18 different Cuban cigars provided by Havana House
31 different non-Cuban manufactured cigars _(10 from Honduras, 6 from the Dominican Republic, 5 each from the U.S. and Nicaragua, 2 from Mexico and 1 each from Brazil, Jamaica, and Aruba)_

They fully acknowledged that cigars made in a non-Cuban country could contain tobacco from a number of different national origins and they simply grouped all the NC cigars together as "non-Cuban." While they did separate the wrapper from the filler and the binder, it is unclear whether they tested binder at all or whether they grouped it in with the wrapper or filler. Their results only identified wrapper and filler testing.

*The Data Analysis:*
I won't go into the details of the GC/MS tests. It would be constructive only to say that _this test did in fact yield chemical profiles that were distinctive of Cuban and non-Cuban tobacco._ These profiles consisted of eleven chemicals found in all tobaccos but at specific and varying ratios.

By using the statistical data reduction technique of principal components analysis _(PCA)_ the investigators were able to identify two aspects of these profiles which accounted for an astonishing 98% of the explanatory power of the analytical technique. This is an incredibly high number which means that _the ability and reliability of this test to differentiate Cuban and non-Cuban tobacco is very robust._

*The Results:*
Filler tobaccos - With the exception of a single specimen, ALL the Cuban cigars clustered in one group completely apart from the cluster of non-Cubans. I cannot reproduce the PCA chart without permission but it was very clear that _Cuban and non-Cuban filler tobaccos were clearly and distinctly separate groupings._

Wrapper tobaccos - Unlike the stunning results of the filler tests, the wrapper samples showed no discernible natural grouping. In other words, _Cuban and non-Cuban wrapper tobaccos were indistinguishable from each other. _

*Commentary:*
1. It appears that these researchers have indeed developed a quick and reliable analytical method that is capable of distinguishing Cuban from non-Cuban tobacco and thus presumably authentic from counterfeit Cuban cigars. While this may prove effective in detecting counterfeits of non-Cuban origin, the same factors that render the Cuban fingerprint so reliable may make the detection of Cuban-made counterfeits impossible with this method.

2. Why did the test work wonderfully with the filler tobaccos yet fail with the wrapper tobacco? Although the authors made no mention of this, as smokers, we are well acquainted with the sales tagline "Cuban seed" tobacco. I think that if any significant number of these wrappers were made from Cuban-seed tobacco, then they might well carry a genetic component that is very similar to Cuban-grown leaf. If this is the case, then one of the three factors identified above as contributing to the development of a characteristic fingerprint profile is wiped out.

Additionally, since most references state that _(aside from maduro)_ natural wrappers are always processed at gentler temperatures than filler and binder tobaccos, this means that there may be a lower degree of transformation of chemical components as a result of the processing. This would mean the specific contribution of a second fingerprint factor would be reduced.

These two issues may well have contributed to the failure of this technique with wrappers. I'm presuming that the investigators were not avid cigar smokers or students of tobacco science. As a result, they would not be aware of these mitigating issues.

3. As far as any practical results of this work, for us, there is none. This is not a test that we could do in our kitchens. And, since there is an embargo of Cuban goods, this is not an issue for those U.S. organizations concerned with tax revenue. However, the BATF Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau is presently conducting very similar tests on tobacco discrimination and could well adopt this method if and when Cuban cigars become available and taxable.

Feel free to post questions or requests for clarification. 

Wilkey


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## opus (Jun 21, 2005)

So the DNA is different between Cuban and non Cuban tobacco. I guess I already knew that. They can scientifically determine the difference. I already knew that too. We can't do it at home, I knew *I *couldn't do it at home already. Not slamming you Wilkey, it is interesting reading, just thought I was going to learn something from the post. It is a nice description of how it is done.


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## dayplanner (Dec 11, 1997)

No worries. I was just trying out some new content. If it doesn't fly, that's ok too. It'll save me hours of typing and editing. 

Back to your regular programming. 

Wilkey


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## galaga (Sep 18, 2003)

3x5card said:


> I cannot reproduce the PCA chart without permission but it was very clear that Cuban and non-Cuban filler tobaccos were clearly and distinctly separate groupings.


But you can quote the chemicals that were measured and state which were characteristic of each tobacco, or their ratios, or whatever it was that differentiated them. I think that would be interesting.



opusxox said:


> So the DNA is different between Cuban and non Cuban tobacco. I guess I already knew that. They can scientifically determine the difference. I already knew that too. We can't do it at home, I knew *I *couldn't do it at home already. Not slamming you Wilkey, it is interesting reading, just thought I was going to learn something from the post. It is a nice description of how it is done.


The paper didn't say that the DNA's were different, just the organic acids. My question would be, (how) are these acids related to the flavor profile.


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## Da Klugs (Jan 8, 2005)

So when is the test strip kit coming out. Nip a 1/4 inch of the cigar. Soak in water. Dip strip. Blue = you're in the money.  Red = refund time.


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## dayplanner (Dec 11, 1997)

Da Klugs said:


> So when is the test strip kit coming out. Nip a 1/4 inch of the cigar. Soak in water. Dip strip. Blue = you're in the money.  Red = refund time.


Now THAT would be sweet!

Wilkey


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## dayplanner (Dec 11, 1997)

3x5card said:


> No worries. I was just trying out some new content. If it doesn't fly, that's ok too. It'll save me hours of typing and editing.
> 
> Back to your regular programming.
> 
> Wilkey


 Wilkey, please continue with these kinds of posts. They contribute a lot to the dialogue and spur new conversations. As you indicated in your post, most of us most of the time are concerned with the experiential aspect of cigars. But the science is fascinating and helps make that experience richer -- both in terms of practical application and in investing the experience with more meaning.

Appreciate you taking the time to share.


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## dayplanner (Dec 11, 1997)

3x5card said:


> Now THAT would be sweet!
> 
> Wilkey


 A new development project for you, peut etre?


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## Cigar Hound (Feb 8, 2006)

This is actually pretty interesting reading. I've never really put a great amount of thought into "Why are Cuban cigars different". What is said in the article does make sense and isn't especially dramatic, but I didn't have any expectations that it would be. In short, very interesting reading. Good Job!


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## opus (Jun 21, 2005)

galaga said:


> But you can quote the chemicals that were measured and state which were characteristic of each tobacco, or their ratios, or whatever it was that differentiated them. I think that would be interesting.
> 
> *The paper didn't say that the DNA's were different, just the organic acids.* My question would be, (how) are these acids related to the flavor profile.


My bad, I just associate amino acids with DNA. One would expect the organic acids to be different from one location as compared to another. I also think it would be valuble to identify which combinations of compounds alter flavor profile. Essentially we could have a recipe for Cuban cigar flavor. Probably at first it would be like margarine compared to butter, but it could turn into something close.:2


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## dayplanner (Dec 11, 1997)

galaga said:


> But you can quote the chemicals that were measured and state which were characteristic of each tobacco, or their ratios, or whatever it was that differentiated them. I think that would be interesting.
> 
> The paper didn't say that the DNA's were different, just the organic acids. My question would be, (how) are these acids related to the flavor profile.


Galaga,

The chemicals that were identified were:

nicotinic acid
succinic acid
glyceric acid
uracil
malic acid
pyroglutamic acid
threonic acid
citric acid
unknown 1 (suspected to be an isomer of threonic acid)
unknown 2

The two statistically derived principal components (distinguishing ratios) were:

malic acid content
ratio of glyceric acid and unknown 1 to pyroglutamic acid

You're exactly right. This was not a DNA test, but a test of the biochemicals inside the tobacco. Where DNA figures into this is in factor 1. A given genetic profile could lead to differences in the amounts of these characteristic chemicals produced, in relation to the environmental conditions and as a result of the curing and fermentation.

Wilkey


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## opus (Jun 21, 2005)

I appologize if I seemed rude or ungrateful in my first post, I meant no harm.:hn I guess I was just looking for an Earth shaking revelation and did not find one. This is a fascinating topic and I am very glad you posted Wilkey. Always good to see the nuts and bolts of how something is done.


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## galaga (Sep 18, 2003)

opusxox said:


> I appologize if I seemed rude or ungrateful in my first post, I meant no harm.:hn I guess I was just looking for an Earth shaking revelation and did not find one. This is a fascinating topic and I am very glad you posted Wilkey. Always good to see the nuts and bolts of how something is done.


Such is the pitfall of the written media we are communicating in, we knew that Skipper -- you only yell at Frank!


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## dayplanner (Dec 11, 1997)

BTW,

I've started collecting articles and papers and if there is interest, here are some of the other topics I could potentially present on:

- Expert opinion and Cuban cigar brand reputation effects on cigar ratings
- Relationship between price and quality in premium cigars
- The curing of cigar tobacco and chemical changes
- Fermentation of cigar-type tobaccos
- Identification of components of cigar-smoker's breath
- History of Labor in the Cuban cigar industry 1860-1958
- Cigars and cigarettes as image makers
- Teenagers and cigars/blunts 

Wilkey

Opus,
No worries, bud. We're all here to learn. Myself included. It's just that some sites might not care for this kind of information presented in this way. And that's aok too. 

I think that the articles on curing and fermenting tobacco might be more generally interesting.


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## SeanGAR (Jul 9, 2004)

Interesting. 

I don't think much of PCA myself. It makes pretty graphs and thats about it.

You can develop and test the model ... but with such a small sample size, its not very useful as a general procedure. 

I prefer to see many hundreds of samples from different years, cigars and origins and some other sort of multivariate classification analysis being used that is a bit more useful than PCA. 

I do have a GCMS and I do have a grad student working on better classification strategies (our samples are crab meats) .. but sadly I don't have the grant that will allow me to buy a couple hundred boxes of havanas. 

Maybe I can get a sample of each of Dave's boxes ... hmm ... for research purposes you see ... I can put you on the publication ....


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## dayplanner (Dec 11, 1997)

Hi Sean,

Good to see you chime in. I knew it'd only be a matter of time. 

PCA and factor analysis can be useful techniques. But they can be misused. For example, intelligence testing.

I also echo your concern about the small sample size. Reproducibility is questionable and in fact they did not provide any statistical calculations of the generalizability of this data set. So, while internal validity is good, external validity is unknown.

Hey, how about sending me some of that crab meat. 

Wilkey


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## dayplanner (Dec 11, 1997)

3x5card said:


> BTW,
> 
> I've started collecting articles and papers and if there is interest, here are some of the other topics I could potentially present on:
> *
> ...


 Would be interested in learning more about the above.


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## opus (Jun 21, 2005)

whiteboard said:


> Would be interested in learning more about the above.


:tpd: Except for the last topic.


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## Aaron (Nov 28, 2005)

Note 3rd paragraph in my 21 January 2006 thread: *BRAINSTORMING: Stogie Inventions I'd Like to See Someday*



> The next device I'd love to invent is some kind of *Stogie-DNA Kit*, like one of those pregnancy detection kits. Take a damp Q-tip to the side of a stick, put it in the *Stogie-DNA Kit* and it'll confirm if your ISOM is really an ISOM. I don't know much but I bet there's a way to test the DNA of any stick to see if it's Dominican, Nicaraguan, Cuban, Honduran, or whatever, and if it is a blend and what the percentages of that blend is. Any biology or DNA mavens here in the Jungle who can dispel the practicality of such a device? It'd kill the counterfeit market, no?


Could the testing strip be fooled if SOME Cuban tobacco was put in a predominantly NC cigar, effectively generating a false positive.

Not unlike being suspected of being an opium consumer after eating a poppy-seed bagel.


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## dyj48 (May 1, 2006)

So why would cuban seed be used in other countries for the wrapper and not the filler? In other words, why wouldn't non-Cuban countries be attempting to replicate the filler leafs with Cuban seed grown tobacco in order to create a cuban-like cigar? 

With a total sample size under 50, PCA may actually be misused here given the general power requirements for factor analysis.


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## dayplanner (Dec 11, 1997)

dyj48 said:


> So why would cuban seed be used in other countries for the wrapper and not the filler? In other words, why wouldn't non-Cuban countries be attempting to replicate the filler leafs with Cuban seed grown tobacco in order to create a cuban-like cigar?
> 
> With a total sample size under 50, PCA may actually be misused here given the general power requirements for factor analysis.


Aaron,

The results of such a test, if it were possible, could be misleading if descendants of Cuban seed contained enough similarity to enable a false positive. You might not even need Cuban-grown tobacco, per se.

dyj48,

Cuban seed may well be used to grow filler tobacco, but all the filler in a cigar may not be from Cuban seed. From what I have read, filler and seed tobacco may be two different types of tobacco not just the same tobacco processed in different ways. I need to look into this some more though but I'm pretty sure this is the case.

I think the question can only be reasonably answered if we knew what strains were smuggled out of Cuba years ago. Perhaps it was only the varieties suitable for wrapper because wrapper was considered the key component of a cigar.

Roger that on sample size. I've run this kind of analysis but on national survey-scale data sets of between 17k-21k observations.

Wilkey


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## Ivory Tower (Nov 18, 2005)

Thanks for the interesting thread. I would be interested in seeing if any of these variations between the seeds and the chemicals produced identifiable characteristics to the smoker, i.e., something where we could say, "yeah, the high amount of 'chemical x', or the certain profile of 'x chemicals' produces that 'x' aroma."

Keep reporting on the related topics.


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## jgros001 (Jun 14, 2005)

Interesting article...it would be quite fascinating if they could eventually get to the point where they could identify both the country of origin and strand of tobacco (eg Habanos 2000). Problem with using this for taxing purposes is that it is not reliable and cannot guarantee the location - ie the problem with the wrapper. The wrapper problem should also extend to filler many times - it is my understanding that a lot of the filler is derived from cuban seed for non-cuban cigars. 

One question I do have is why is this a taxation problem - I am sure Canada taxes on non-cubans as well. Why wouldn't you tax the fakes (when I say tax fakes, I mean tax all cigars) - put the pressure on the retailer to determine the authenticity and thus decide whether to accept and sell or return.

Look forward to more of these articles 
- Expert opinion and Cuban cigar brand reputation effects on cigar ratings
- Relationship between price and quality in premium cigars


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## TU09 (Mar 26, 2006)

It seems as if I recall having heard about the development of a simple and portable DNA testing kit intended to identify the origin of grains. Has this actually come to fruition and could it be applied to tobacco? 

Also, I read an article a couple years ago that discussed the absorption of various substances amongst several plant species including tobacco using SEM-EDS. Is SEM-EDS as effective in this application as GC/MS? My very limited background is in metals and I never made use of GC/MS but I was under the impression that it was supposed to be more appropriate for organic compounds?


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## Isombitch (May 16, 2006)

I just had a long conversation with Benji Menendez, the Master Blender of Partagas cigars, at a local B&M event. He said it's the soil that imparts the Cuban cigar's distinctive taste and not the strain/seed. He claimed the whole idea of "Cuban seed" tobacco is just a marketing technique. Fascinating person to talk with if you get the chance.


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## HeavySmoke (Apr 9, 2006)

Wilkey,

Nice work. Would like to see more on the "Fermentation of cigar-type tobaccos". Is the semester over ? ......:r ....seems like you have some extra "free time".


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## gabebdog1 (Mar 9, 2005)

galaga said:


> But you can quote the chemicals that were measured and state which were characteristic of each tobacco, or their ratios, or whatever it was that differentiated them. I think that would be interesting.
> 
> The paper didn't say that the DNA's were different, just the organic acids. My question would be, (how) are these acids related to the flavor profile.


I like it better when ya just drink beer and talk sh#t


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## Dr. Stogie Fresh (Nov 18, 2005)

Wilkey,

Very nice summary and an interesting post.

What are your thoughts about companies like Tabacos de la Cordillera, which use ALL genetically pure Cuban seeds?

Regarding the small sample size, this is a typical research procedure and the levels of statistical significant figure in the sample size. Using small samples makes the research manageable while giving you an opportunity to test a hypothesis (research question). Thus, after finding significant results, the next step would normally be to increase the sample size and to control other factors that weren't controlled the first time around.

Doc


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## Diselfitter (May 20, 2006)

Nice Post Wilkey. I love reading things of this Nature. Keep up the good work.

Deez



Isombitch said:


> I just had a long conversation with Benji Menendez, the Master Blender of Partagas cigars, at a local B&M event. He said it's the soil that imparts the Cuban cigar's distinctive taste and not the strain/seed. He claimed the whole idea of "Cuban seed" tobacco is just a marketing technique. Fascinating person to talk with if you get the chance.


I dunno if I buy into his theory here, well at least not fully. 
I do believe that the soil plays a big part of the taste, as does the amount of sun, rain, wind, elevation... etc.. all part of what makes up the climate, and Micro-climate.

But to claim the strain of tobacco doesn't matter...Would lend one to believe that all tobacco plants are basically the same. And from what I understand that is not true. 
That would be like saying all grapes are the same, or all tomatoes are the same, and the taste difference in them is because of soil and climate. I just don't buy it.

Take the Shiraz Grape.. One in Australia, and the other in France, two distinct flavors, but the Grape is very much the same. 
Why the flavor difference, Climate, Micro-Climate, have a lot to do with it, as well as how long the fruit matures on the vine, and then the processing of the juice.

Logic guides me to think much the same has to be going on to the Cigars we smoke, and what makes them unique, to say it is the "Soil" is over simplifying the process.

Just my 2 cents.

Deez


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## dyj48 (May 1, 2006)

Dr. Stogie Fresh said:


> Wilkey,
> 
> Very nice summary and an interesting post.
> 
> ...


Yes, that's true, most studies will conduct pilot studies with smaller samples prior to running larger studies with adequate power. But PCA and factor analysis doesn't rely on significance testing of any kind. In essence, it attempts to determine patterns of responses by the data. These patterns are subsquently loaded (eigenvalues) into one factor or another. Before you can run PCA, there is still sample size requirements. Of course, I've not read the study, but it still seems significantly underpowered.


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## Hammerhead (Sep 7, 2005)

Wilkey, this is great! Thanks for posting. For many of us, anything that helps us explore and expand the known limits of our interest is good stuff.

I'd also definitely be interested in your other papers, except for the one on teenagers. If you don't happen to have it available, I can convert them to Adobe PDF's and upload them to the ClubStogie FTP server for reference with your permission.

Thanks again!


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## dayplanner (Dec 11, 1997)

I am thoroughly impressed by the discussion in this thread! You guys are curious, knowledgeable and sharp, sharp, sharp. Well done.

Ivory,
The chemicals targeted by this analysis are typically not involved in fragrance. They are not aromatic molecules and don't really smell. However, your point is quite pertinent if a technique could be developed for identifying flavor molecules and test to associate them with sensory characteristics.

jgros001,
The problem is twofold. 1. Specificity - identifying the exact origin and 2. Reliability - can it do the first thing again and again with confidence. It's the old accuracy and precision bind. As for the Canada issue, I think the concern is with products that come in from "grey" or black market distribution channels which would skirt the taxes levied on goods that come in through santioned channels. For example, I have a box of fake Bolivars from a Canadian shop that prominently advertises their relationship with Havana House, the official distributor of Cuban cigars in Canada. Since these are fakes, they could not have come through HH and as such, may well have evaded taxation.

TU09,
Are you talking about scanning electron microscopy and X-ray techniques? If so, that method would provide a mapping of metals distribution on the sample but I don't know how it would work for quantification.

ISOMbitch,
Fascinating. Was that at a Cig City event?

Heavysmoke,
You caught me in a window of free time. The next two weeks I am co-teaching a summer tech institute so won't have much time for "frivolities" 

Dr. Stogiefresh,
That is absolutely fascinating. I was not familiar with that organization. The language on that website was chosen very, very well. It spinkles science with tradition and is well composed and edited. Clearly, credibility was an objective. That said, i think they have latched onto an interesting concept. Let me just pick a few nits though.

They use the phrase "legal pre-Castro Cuban cigars" and that is as imprecise as it is misleading. They say "We grow all our tobacco naturally, from our 40+ genetically pure pre-Castro seed varieties, or from new strains we've created from these ancestral seeds." Unless I'm mistaken this is what is done by growers in non-Cuban countries when they tout "Cuban see" tobaccos. 

I would not mind giving their cigars a try. I read you on the sample size. But since 2001, when this paper was published, neither the original team nor any other researchers have published work on this technique using expanded samples.

dyj48,
In fact, power was not calculated either a priori or post hoc.

Wilkey


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## okierock (Feb 24, 2006)

I think some of that "ACID" from the cigars is starting to get to me:w cause you guys sound like Charlie Brown's teacher.


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## dyj48 (May 1, 2006)

[No message]


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## dayplanner (Dec 11, 1997)

:r perfect.


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## TU09 (Mar 26, 2006)

3x5card said:


> TU09,
> Are you talking about scanning electron microscopy and X-ray techniques? If so, that method would provide a mapping of metals distribution on the sample but I don't know how it would work for quantification.


If you use a fairly large sample area (about 0.5 micrometers) you can make use of an energy dispersive spectrometer attachment to determine the chemical composition of the sample with an error of about +/- 2%. This analysis would, I think, allow you to observe the variations in the chemical composition of tobacco resulting from regional variations in soil type. Quantitative analysis can be performed with elements as light as Na using this method.

I have played around with EDS using a polyimide sample but, as I said before, most of my limited experience is with metals. This is probably overkill but I am trying to relate the methods discussed earlier to those I am familiar with. I have read a little about GC/MS and suspect it is much simpler and cheaper to use but have no first hand experience with it.


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## SeanGAR (Jul 9, 2004)

dyj48 said:


> Of course, I've not read the study, but it still seems significantly underpowered.


I have the pdf at work and will link it tomorrow for a while. The paper sucks IMHO .. the PCA doesn't completely separate the samples, so its pretty much useless as is in court. I've reviewed a pile of papers for that journal and would not have accepted it as published.


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## TimL (Mar 21, 2006)

Da Klugs said:


> So when is the test strip kit coming out. Nip a 1/4 inch of the cigar. Soak in water. Dip strip. Blue = you're in the money.  Red = refund time.


ROFLMAO !!!!


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## MoTheMan (May 24, 2003)

This has ben a very interestind discussion. Really worth reading.

Would certainly like to see the study everyone's talking about. The question I have (as a biochemist) is how good is the methodology and how reproducible is the study!

As an aside, all this talk of "genetics" is INACCURATE. The tobacco plant is one of the most genetically resilient species there are. This means that from generation to generation there is very little genetic drift or change (due to mutation, adaptability, etc...) compared with most species inhabiting this planet. Now we know of several different straing of the plant (Piloto Cubano, Habana 2000, Connecticut Leaf, Sumatra, etc...) that are routinely used for cigars, but these strains were deliberately bred in order to achieve specific traits.

To me, what makes tobacco leaves different is the soil & climate they're grown in. Now the particular "terroir" may cause the leaves to concentrate certain minerals or organic compounds in the plants; but can that be truly measured by chemical analytic methods? I'm very skeptical, till convinced otherwise!


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## galaga (Sep 18, 2003)

MoTheMan said:


> This has ben a very interestind discussion. Really worth reading.
> 
> ............
> 
> To me, what makes tobacco leaves different is the soil & climate they're grown in. Now the particular "terroir" may cause the leaves to concentrate certain minerals or organic compounds in the plants; but can that be truly measured by chemical analytic methods? I'm very skeptical, till convinced otherwise!


I have no doubts, given a little time and money, that the minerals could be measured by ICP or ICP/MS and the organics by GC and LC or GC and LC coupled to mass spectrometry. The hard part, would seem to me, to be to equate that data to taste. I could care less how the measurements might relate to any tax fraud determination or if they were really cuban or non-cuban. But to relate those profiles to making the leaf taste better be it Cuban or non-cuban --that would be worthwhile research. ps I remember your discussions about the Nicarauguan leaves being used in some habana factories. Perhaps they were being used in the wrappers?


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## MoTheMan (May 24, 2003)

galaga said:


> I could care less how the measurements might relate to any tax fraud determination or if they were really cuban or non-cuban. But to relate those profiles to making the leaf taste better be it Cuban or non-cuban --that would be worthwhile research.
> *YUP, truly. Now back to figuring out how my favorite wines do it?! *
> 
> P.S. I remember your discussions about the Nicarauguan leaves being used in some habana factories. Perhaps they were being used in the wrappers? *I still keep hearing that from reliable (non-Cuban sources). Remind me to bring you some of my Alto Nicaragua cigars (that's the brand name -- made from Jalapa Tobacco) to the SoCal herf. You'll swear it smokes like a Habano*!


That is all.


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## ky toker (Jun 2, 2005)

MoThe Man said:


> To me, what makes tobacco leaves different is the soil & climate they're grown in. Now the particular "terroir" may cause the leaves to concentrate certain minerals or organic compounds in the plants


I purchased an old book, "THE STORY OF CIGARS", because it was about 'cigars' and I like older out of print books of interest. An excerpt talking about the difference in leaf from Cuba and other nations.



> ...the same seed which in Connecticut produces a smooth, fine-veined leaf emmently suited for use as a wrapper on cigars will, when planted in some less favorable area, produce tobacco of such texture that it is acceptable only for use in some form other than cigars.


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## SeanGAR (Jul 9, 2004)

Here you go boys ... I'll leave the paper linked for a couple of days ....

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/okeefes/ngetal2001.pdf


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## ToddziLLa (Oct 17, 2005)

SeanGAR said:


> Here you go boys ... I'll leave the paper linked for a couple of days ....
> 
> http://filebox.vt.edu/users/okeefes/ngetal2001.pdf


Wow that is crazy! I think I'll just stick to smoking my Habanos. :w


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## Lamar (Dec 12, 1997)

Profoundly interesting while at the same time above my pay grade. I do feel that it is good to get some data behind our opinions.


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## RGD (May 10, 2006)

> Originally Posted by 3x5card
> TU09,
> Are you talking about scanning electron microscopy and X-ray techniques? If so, that method would provide a mapping of metals distribution on the sample but I don't know how it would work for quantification.





TU09 said:


> If you use a fairly large sample area (about 0.5 micrometers) you can make use of an energy dispersive spectrometer attachment to determine the chemical composition of the sample with an error of about +/- 2%. This analysis would, I think, allow you to observe the variations in the chemical composition of tobacco resulting from regional variations in soil type. Quantitative analysis can be performed with elements as light as Na using this method.


Exactly what I was thinking - matter of fact I have a Binford 2000 Series C sitting out in the shop so I'll give this a go later.

:r   

Ron


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## Dr. Stogie Fresh (Nov 18, 2005)

3x5card said:


> Dr. Stogiefresh,
> That is absolutely fascinating. I was not familiar with that organization. The language on that website was chosen very, very well. It spinkles science with tradition and is well composed and edited. Clearly, credibility was an objective. That said, i think they have latched onto an interesting concept. Let me just pick a few nits though.
> 
> They use the phrase "legal pre-Castro Cuban cigars" and that is as imprecise as it is misleading. They say "We grow all our tobacco naturally, from our 40+ genetically pure pre-Castro seed varieties, or from new strains we've created from these ancestral seeds." Unless I'm mistaken this is what is done by growers in non-Cuban countries when they tout "Cuban see" tobaccos.
> ...


Wilkey, you will be interested to know that I was granted an interview with John Vogel, the Director of the company. His credentials are impressive, as you will see. I tried to pose some tough questions to see how he would respond. He does get into some detail. I am busy writing an intro and editing and I will be posting the entire interview on the Stogie Fresh Cigar Journal on Monday.

Doc


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