# Bourbon lovers...in here (pipe forum)



## Davetopay (Jan 19, 2008)

I have always enjoyed a good bourbon. Currently in the rotation with a good pipe are Bulleit and Elijah Craig 12yo. I tend to like pairing them with Peterson's Irish Oak as it is very cigar like (sometimes). What other bourbon/tobac combos do you favor?


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## OilMan (May 12, 2006)

*Re: Bourbon lovers...in here*

Woodford Reserve is my bourbon of choice.


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## Blaylock-cl (Apr 28, 2006)

*Re: Bourbon lovers...in here*

Hey, I thought you were going for "fish-n-chips"... 14 posts in under 3 hours...you must like it here! j/k :r

Sorry...I can't comment as I don't drink Bourbon.


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## Davetopay (Jan 19, 2008)

*Re: Bourbon lovers...in here*



Blake Lockhart said:


> Hey, I thought you were going for "fish-n-chips"... 14 posts in under 3 hours...you must like it here! j/k :r
> 
> Sorry...I can't comment as I don't drink Bourbon.


It's only 12:08 here......and I was just going to pick out what to smoke.
Which I did. I think I am going to have some MacB Dark Twist.

Yeah, I do like it here. You all seem very nice and well informed. I am also on another pipe forum, but it is a bit slow to post to as every post is moderated. It's not quite as conversational as this place is.


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## DubintheDam (Jun 5, 2007)

*Re: Bourbon lovers...in here*

MacBaren's Plumcake and Bourbon....Haddo's Delight and Bourbon....Escudo and Bourbon....MacBaren's Navy Flake and Bourbon....I could play this game all night....now if only I had me some Bourbon!

Your turn...Laphfroaig and Penzance...........


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## Bridges (Jan 6, 2008)

*Re: Bourbon lovers...in here*

Plain old Jim Beam white label for me.p


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## SgtStriker (Mar 7, 2007)

*Re: Bourbon lovers...in here*

Makers Mark, is my favorite.:tu


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## ultramag (Aug 23, 2007)

*Re: Bourbon lovers...in here*



OilMan said:


> Woodford Reserve is my bourbon of choice.


:tpd: I've been drinking this pretty regular lately. Very good bourbon I hadn't been able to try before. I also like Evan Williams Single Barrel quite well.


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## IHT (Dec 27, 2003)

*Re: Bourbon lovers...in here*



OilMan said:


> Woodford Reserve is my bourbon of choice.


i'm not much of a harder liquor kinda guy, stick mostly to good beer. this is one helluva fine drink though, whatever you wanna call it.


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## billybarue (Mar 20, 2006)

*Re: Bourbon lovers...in here*

Got a steal on a case of knob creek a couple months ago, and it is currently my favorite. If I had a bottle of Eagle Rare on hand though, I don't think I would give the same answer!!!

Welcome - I'm from Alexandria/Mt Vernon BTW (born and raised).

BillyBarue


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## Dzrtrat (Oct 9, 2006)

#1 Bookers (when I can afford it)
#2 Bakers
#3 Knob Creek

On the rocks for me, let the ice melt a little......mmmmm..mmmmm....mmmmmm.


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## DAFU (Dec 14, 2004)

Like Makers Mark or good ole Jim Beam with some pipe 'baccy. Prefer dark rum with a cigar though!


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## mhailey (Dec 28, 2007)

All of the above are good, but you can't beat Gentleman Jack, or Jack Daniels Single Barrel.

Matt


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## worr lord (Feb 3, 2007)

Blanton's (sweeter side) and Woodford are my two favorites, but the Blanton's pairs better with more VA's.


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## Syekick (Jun 5, 2007)

Bulleit Bourbon? Never heard of it.  

I like it with a local bulk VA/Pers blend called Country Time or a local bulk burley called The Millenium.


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## okierock (Feb 24, 2006)

Not a pipe guy yet but bourbon??

Bulleit
Bookers
Buffalo Trace
Makers Mark
Elijah Craig 12 year

All good


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## Mad Hatter (Apr 8, 2007)

I'm more of a medium brown ale drinker. Beer is good


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## worr lord (Feb 3, 2007)

Bulleit is tasty, but really needs to be cut a bit (IMO) =/


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## JacksonCognac (Nov 12, 2007)

I've sampled the cheap bourbon's extensively throughout my college career, and recently have gotten into the more mid range bourbons and enjoying them on the rocks or with a splash of coke. 

Some of my favorites include: 

Makers
Knob Creek
Rebel Yell 
Jack Daniels


(Probably in that order)

Nothing super exciting but I'd love to get into it more. Personally when I'm smoking a pipe I generally prefer coffee, tea, or water.


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## wintermute2.0 (Apr 9, 2009)

Sorry, but as a big bourbon fan, I had to resurrect this thread.

Buffalo Trace is my everyday pour. My faves are Wild Turkey Rare Breed or Elijah Craig 18Yr depending on mood.


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## MickeyFinn (Jan 1, 2008)

Discovered Woodford Reserve in a birthday gift. That is a very goooood bourbon.
Dave


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## drastic_quench (Sep 12, 2008)

JacksonCognac said:


> I've sampled the cheap bourbon's extensively throughout my college career, and recently have gotten into the more mid range bourbons and enjoying them on the rocks or with a splash of coke.
> 
> Some of my favorites include:
> 
> ...


Jack Daniel's isn't a bourbon.


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## brianwalden (Mar 18, 2009)

drastic_quench said:


> Jack Daniel's isn't a bourbon.


They call it Tennessee whiskey, but it's a bourbon. You can maybe convince me that Tennessee whiskey is a specific type of bourbon, but I won't be sold on it being a completely separate whiskey category - unless of course our new mayor declares it so.


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## sounds7 (Mar 25, 2009)

My choice is a good scotch or Crown Royal but I have enjoyed many varieties of Bourbon over the years. Wild Turkey and Jim Beam were close College companions. Id still reach for a bourbon if the mood hit me.


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## plexiprs (Nov 18, 2005)

VaPer & Booker's ......


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## VFD421 (Nov 8, 2008)

1792 Ridgemont Reserve is pretty good. Haven't had any in awhile though. Right now Canadian whiskey is what I have been drinking when the mood strikes, Candian Club or Crown Royal.


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## drastic_quench (Sep 12, 2008)

brianwalden said:


> They call it Tennessee whiskey, but it's a bourbon. You can maybe convince me that Tennessee whiskey is a specific type of bourbon, but I won't be sold on it being a completely separate whiskey category - unless of course our new mayor declares it so.


Tennessee whiskey is filtered over charcoal from the sugar maple; bourbon is not. This significantly changes the taste. I can pick JD out in a blind test because it's got a near-cloying sweetness that bourbons don't.


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## dj1340 (Mar 30, 2009)

1792 Ridgemont Reserve
Eagle Rare
Knob Creek
Blantons(expensive treat)
Woodford Reserve.

Not enough hours in the day


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## dogsplayinpoker (Jan 23, 2007)

Knob Creek and Buffalo Trace
Wild Turkey when I am in the poor house


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## brianwalden (Mar 18, 2009)

drastic_quench said:


> Tennessee whiskey is filtered over charcoal from the sugar maple; bourbon is not. This significantly changes the taste. I can pick JD out in a blind test because it's got a near-cloying sweetness that bourbons don't.


And a Scotch lover can pick out his favorite single malt from all the rest because of the distinctive flavors imparted by the way it's made and aged. True, an Islay is not a Highland, but they're still all Scotch and not separate types of whiskey. In the same way Tennessee whiskey is a specific type of bourbon which other bourbon's can't claim to be, but it's still bourbon. Or at least that's how I see it.

My local liquor store has a row for bourbon, a row that's half Scotch and half Irish whiskey, and a small shelf with rye and Canadian whisky. What it doesn't have is a Tennessee Whiskey section, Jack's in with the bourbons where it belongs.

I guess the counter argument to my point is that Southern Comfort is also in with the bourbons and I don't even think it's a whiskey properly speaking - so what does the liquor store know.


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## DeadFrog (Mar 19, 2009)

I'm not a bourbon drinker and have ever only tried two types. I lower end Wild Turkey (which I didn't like at all) and Knob Creek. The KC was really quite good. I'm a scotch/whiskey drinker when I go with liquor, but mostly prefer a good ale. :drinking:


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## wintermute2.0 (Apr 9, 2009)

brianwalden said:


> In the same way Tennessee whiskey is a specific type of bourbon which other bourbon's can't claim to be, but it's still bourbon. Or at least that's how I see it.


I'm not so sure about that. There's a federal statute on what can and can't be considered a bourbon. Two of the main sticking points are:

Mash Bill - must contain between 51% and 79% corn
Aging - must be stored in new, charred white oak barrels for a minimum of 2 years.

there's other requirements, and then there are additional reqs if you want to add "Kentucky" and/or "Straight" in front of "Bourbon".


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## brianwalden (Mar 18, 2009)

wintermute2.0 said:


> I'm not so sure about that. There's a federal statute on what can and can't be considered a bourbon. Two of the main sticking points are:
> 
> Mash Bill - must contain between 51% and 79% corn
> Aging - must be stored in new, charred white oak barrels for a minimum of 2 years.
> ...


Hmm... Wikipedia lists:On 4 May 1964, the United States Congress recognized Bourbon Whiskey as a "distinctive product of the United States," creating the Federal Standards of Identity for Bourbon. Federal regulations now stipulate that bourbon must meet these requirements:


Bourbon must be made of a grain mixture that is at least 51% corn.[1]
Bourbon must be distilled to no more than 160 (U.S.) proof (80% alcohol by volume).
Bourbon must be 100% natural (nothing other than water added to the mixture).
Bourbon must be aged in new, charred oak barrels.[1]
Bourbon may not be introduced to the barrel at higher than 125 proof (62.5% alcohol by volume).
Bourbon which meets the above requirements and has been aged for a minimum of two years, may (but is not required to) be called Straight Bourbon.[2]
Bourbon aged for a period less than four years must be labeled with the duration of its aging.
If an age is stated on the label, it must be the age of the youngest whiskey in the bottle.
As far as I know Jack Daniel's fulfills all of these requirements (unless the law interprets filtering as adding something to the mixture). It also fulfills the requirements for a Tennessee whiskey (made in TN and charcoal filtered). In my head just as Champagne is a subset of sparkling wine which is a subset of all wine, Tennessee whiskey is a subset of Bourbon which is a subset of all whiskey.

Of course all this is academic.


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## brianwalden (Mar 18, 2009)

Sorry for highjacking this thread (please feel free to yell at me), but these types of math problems always interest me. I've been thinking and would like to nuance my position. If we're talking about whiskeys actually in existence, as far as I know the only Tennessee whiskeys are bourbons made in TN and then charcoal filtered - which from my perspective makes Tennessee whiskey a subset of bourbon.

But hypothetically speaking it doesn't appear that this must be the case. Someone in Tennessee could theoretically make something that qualifies it as whiskey but doesn't meet Bourbon's requirements, run it through a sugar-maple charcoal filter, and call it Tennessee Whiskey. So if we're looking at all the whiskeys that could ever possibly be made, Bourbon and Tennessee Whiskeys are two separate but overlapping sets. It's merely a coincidence that the Tennessee but not Bourbon set doesn't contain whiskeys that actually exist.

That said I usually try to keep a Bourbon/Tennessee, a Rye, a Scotch, and an Irish on hand at home so I can have whatever I'm in the mood for. For some reason I've never been able to acquire a taste for Canadian Whiskey. I take my Scotch neat and everything else on the rocks - I don't know why that's just how I do it.


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## Bassie (Mar 5, 2009)

Well,....Bourbon I love it,...
Just opened a bottle of makers mark last week-end. I like single grains a lot ! Besides, I am somekind of a whiskey fan, though, in small amounts. I like Dalwinnies 15 YO a lot, The balvenie 10 y.o. and can get lost in the Whiskey's off Bruichladdich.
Besides whiskey,...i guess my heart is into rum. So much love that !!!


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## maboman (Feb 27, 2008)

Two words WILD TURKEY

Jack Daniels is NOT a bourbon. I am from Tennessee and think very fondly of Jack, but it isn't a bourbon.

Maboman


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## plexiprs (Nov 18, 2005)

On your petard of choice ....... Wikipedia says,

_Tennessee whiskey is filtered through sugar maple charcoal in large wooden vats prior to aging. Tennessee whiskey is not bourbon whiskey, as defined by Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, Chapter 1, Part 5, Section 5.22._

and

_Tennessee whiskey is an American whiskey that undergoes a filtering stage called the Lincoln County Process, in which the whiskey is filtered through a thick layer of maple charcoal before it is put into casks for aging. This step gives the whiskey a distinctive flavor. The process itself is named for Lincoln County, Tennessee, which is where the Jack Daniel's distillery was originally located. In 1871, the Jack Daniel's distillery and the surrounding area became part of the newly created Moore County.
Presently, there are only two brands of Tennessee whiskey on the market: Jack Daniel's and George Dickel._

JD is Whiskey; Bourbon is Whiskey. Scotch is Whisky!


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## cp478 (Oct 23, 2008)

im from kentucky !

what do you think?


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## uvacom (Oct 29, 2008)

If you actually read the federal code, it appears that JD could be called bourbon if the company chose to do so. There's nothing that says it can't undergo charcoal filtering. But colloquially JD is usually considered to be separate from bourbon. 

But whatever...personally I think plain JD is overpriced swill, Gentleman Jack's is too heavily flavored, and by the time you get to single barrel, there are so many other competitive whiskies that I just pass it up. 

As far as bourbons go, Evan Williams Single Barrel used to be a huge bargain but it has gone up in price (at least locally). Eagle Rare has become my go-to bourbon, I think it's about $22 at my local place and I personally feel one would have to spend more than twice as much to get a bourbon of greater quality.


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## DSturg369 (Apr 6, 2008)

To answer the original question.....



SgtStriker said:


> Makers Mark, is my favorite.


Same for me.

I'm not a big beer drinker but I will down a couple now and again. As for the afore mentioned Scotch, I haven't found one I like yet so Bourbon remains my drink of choice.

As for pairing, good 'ole PA does well for me.


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## JohnnyFlake (May 31, 2006)

brianwalden said:


> Hmm... Wikipedia lists:On 4 May 1964, the United States Congress recognized Bourbon Whiskey as a "distinctive product of the United States," creating the Federal Standards of Identity for Bourbon. Federal regulations now stipulate that bourbon must meet these requirements:
> 
> 
> Bourbon must be made of a grain mixture that is at least 51% corn.[1]
> ...


*Most Whiskey's are very similar in taste and even in the method of production. The only real difference, IMHO, is that by Law, a whiskey cannot not be called or used the name "Bourbon" on the label or in their description unless it is made within Bourbon County, Kentucky!!! *


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## uvacom (Oct 29, 2008)

JohnnyFlake said:


> *Most Whiskey's are very similar in taste and even in the method of production. The only real difference, IMHO, is that by Law, a whiskey cannot not be called or used the name "Bourbon" on the label or in their description unless it is made within Bourbon County, Kentucky!!! *


What law would that be?


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## DSturg369 (Apr 6, 2008)

There are "Bourbons" and then there are "Kentucky Bourbons". The Latter must be produced and stored (for at least one year of the aging) in Kentucky to be called Kentucky Bourbon. As for "bourbon" itself......

"On May 4, 1964 bourbon whiskey was recognized under US statutory law as a distinct product that could only be produced following certain standards. Title 27 (Alcohol, Tobacco Products, and Firearms) of the Code of Federal Regulations, Section 5.22 outlines the standards of identity. The five criteria are: 

Made from a fermented mash with a minimum of 51% and a maximum of 79% corn 
Distilled at less than 80% alcohol/volume (160 proof) 
Stored in a new, charred, white oak barrel at a maximum of 62.5% alcohol/volume (125 proof) for at least 2 years 
The original color and flavor of the whiskey can not be filtered or altered in any way 
Must be produced and stored (for at least one year of the aging) in Kentucky to be called Kentucky Bourbon 
Also, the section clearly states "that the word 'bourbon' shall not be used to describe any whiskey or whiskey based distilled spirit not produced in the United States". These criteria provide the important guidelines for production, but in practicality, bourbon producers use a 70% corn mash, and the final bottling is somewhere between 40-50% alcohol/volume (80 to 100 proof)."


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## Dylan Cerling (Dec 13, 2008)

I like Wild Turkey and Jim Beam Black.

I had a bad, bad experience with Knob Creek - the only time I've had real, honest-to-god alcohol poisoning - and I'm never going to have it again.


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## JohnnyFlake (May 31, 2006)

uvacom said:


> What law would that be?


*After completing some additional research, it appears that my interpretation was wrong. Apparently there is no such law, although well into the late 1800s that was kind of a belief. Apparently bourbon can be produced anywhere, as long as it qualifies with some standards, which are outlined in the following:
*

*BTW, even though Bourbon can be produced anywhere, there are only about six true Bourbons in the USA that are not produced in Bourbon County, Kentucky, and Jack Daniels is not one of them, it's classified as a Tennessee Whiskey!*

Wikipedia: Bourbon whiskey
Top
Home > Library > Miscellaneous > Wikipedia
Bourbon bottle, 19th century.

Bourbon is an American whiskey, a type of distilled spirit, made primarily from corn and named for Bourbon County, Kentucky. It has been produced since the 18th century.
Contents
[hide]

* 1 Legal requirements
* 2 Production process
* 3 Geographic origin
* 4 History
* 5 National Bourbon Heritage Month
* 6 Present day
* 7 See also
* 8 References
* 9 Further reading
* 10 External links

Legal requirements

On 4 May 1964, the U.S. Congress recognized Bourbon Whiskey as a "distinctive product of the United States," creating the Federal Standards of Identity for Bourbon. Federal regulations now stipulate that Bourbon must meet these requirements:

* Bourbon must be made of a grain mixture that is at least 51% corn.[1]
* Bourbon must be distilled to no more than 160 (U.S.) proof (80% alcohol by volume).
* Bourbon must be 100% natural (nothing other than water added to the mixture).
* Bourbon must be aged in new, charred oak barrels.[1]
* Bourbon may not be introduced to the barrel at higher than 125 proof (62.5% alcohol by volume).
* Bourbon which meets the above requirements and has been aged for a minimum of two years, may (but is not required to) be called Straight Bourbon.[2]
* Bourbon aged for a period less than four years must be labeled with the duration of its aging.
* If an age is stated on the label, it must be the age of the youngest whiskey in the bottle.

In practice, almost all bourbons marketed today are made from more than two-thirds corn, have been aged at least four years, and do qualify as "straight bourbon"-with or without the "straight bourbon" label. The exceptions are inexpensive commodity brands of bourbon aged only three years and pre-mixed cocktails made with straight bourbon aged the minimum two years. However, a few small distilleries market bourbons aged for as little as three months.

Production process

The typical grain mixture for bourbon is 70% corn - with the remainder being wheat and/or rye, and malted barley. This mixture, called the mash, is fermented through a process called sour mash fermentation in which mash from a previous distillation is added to ensure a consistent pH across batches. The fermented mash is then distilled.

This clear spirit is placed in charred oak barrels for aging, during which it gains color and flavor from the wood. Bourbons generally appear darker the longer they age.

After aging, bourbon is withdrawn from the barrel, diluted with water and bottled to at least 80 US proof (40% abv)[3]. Most bourbon whiskey is sold at 80° proof. Other common proofs are 86, 90, 94, 100 and 107, and whiskeys of up to 151 proof have been sold. Some higher proof bottlings are "barrel proof," meaning that they have not been diluted after removal from the barrels.

Bourbon whiskey may be sold at less than 80 proof but must be labeled as "diluted bourbon."

Geographic origin

Bourbon may be produced anywhere in the United States where it is legal to distill spirits. Currently most brands are produced in Kentucky, where Bourbon has a strong association. Estimates are that 95% of the world's bourbon is distilled and aged in Kentucky[4]. Bourbon has been made in Colorado, Kansas, Illinois, Indiana, Missouri, New Jersey, New York, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, and Virginia.[5]

Bardstown, Kentucky, is called the Bourbon Capital of the World and is home to the annual Bourbon Festival in September.

The Kentucky Bourbon Trail is the name of a tourism promotion intended to attract visitors to eight well-known distilleries: Buffalo Trace (Frankfort), Four Roses (Lawrenceburg), Heaven Hill (Bardstown), Jim Beam (Clermont), Maker's Mark (Loretto), Tom Moore (Bardstown, added to the trail on August 27, 2008), Wild Turkey (Lawrenceburg), and Woodford Reserve (Versailles).[6]

History
Oak casks, shown stacked in ricks, used to store and age bourbon. Bourbon or rather Whisky in general that escapes naturally from the wooden casks, as seen by the stains along the sides of the barrels, is known to distillers as the "angel's share".

The history of bourbon is not well documented. Instead, there are many conflicting legends and claims, some more credible than others. For example, the invention of bourbon is often attributed to a pioneering Baptist minister and distiller named Elijah Craig. Rev. Craig (credited with many Kentucky firsts, e.g., fulling mill, paper mill, ropewalk, etc.) is said to also be the first to age the distillation in charred oak casks, "a process that gives the bourbon its reddish color and unique taste."[7] Across the county line in Bourbon County, an early distiller named Jacob Spears is credited with being the first to label his product "Bourbon whiskey." Spears' home, Stone Castle, warehouse and springhouse survive; you can drive by the Spears homeplace on Clay-Kaiser Road.

Although still popular and often repeated, the Craig legend has little actual credibility. Similarly, the Spears story is a local favorite, rarely repeated outside the county. There likely was no single "inventor" of bourbon, which developed into its present form only in the late 19th century.[8]

Distilling probably arrived in what would later become known as Kentucky when Scottish, Irish, English, and German settlers began to farm the area in earnest in the late 18th century. The spirit they made evolved and gained a name in the early 19th century.
" When American pioneers pushed west of the Allegheny Mountains following the American Revolution, the first counties they founded covered vast regions. One of these original, huge counties was Bourbon, established in 1785 and named after the French royal family. While this vast county was being carved into many smaller ones, early in the 19th century, many people continued to call the region Old Bourbon. Located within Old Bourbon was the principal Ohio River port from which whiskey and other products were shipped. "Old Bourbon" was stencilled on the barrels to indicate their port of origin. Old Bourbon whiskey was different because it was the first corn whiskey most people had ever tasted. In time, bourbon became the name for any corn-based whiskey.[9] "

A refinement variously credited to either Dr. James C. Crow or Dr. Jason S. Amburgey[10] was the sour mash process, by which each new fermentation is conditioned with some amount of spent mash (previously fermented mash that has been separated from its alcohol). Spent mash is also known as spent beer, distillers' spent grain, stillage, and slop or feed mash, so named because it is used as animal feed. The acid introduced by using the sour mash controls the growth of bacteria that could taint the whiskey and creates a proper pH balance for the yeast to work.

As of 2005[update], all straight bourbons use a sour mash process. Dr. Crow or Dr. Amburgey developed this refinement while working at the Old Oscar Pepper Distillery (now the Woodford Reserve Distillery) in Woodford County, Kentucky. As of today, there are no running distilleries within the current boundaries of Bourbon County due to new counties being formed from Bourbon County over time.

A resolution of the U.S. Congress in 1964 declared bourbon to be a "distinctive product of the United States."[11][12] That resolution asked "the appropriate agencies of the United States Government . . . [to] take appropriate action to prohibit importation into the United States of whiskey designated as 'Bourbon Whiskey.'"[11] Federal regulation now defines "bourbon whiskey" to only include "bourbon" produced in the United States.[13]

National Bourbon Heritage Month

On August 2, 2007, the U.S. Senate passed a resolution sponsored by Senator Jim Bunning (R-KY) officially declaring September 2007 "National Bourbon Heritage Month," marking the history of bourbon whiskey.[14] Notably, the resolution claims that Congress declared bourbon to be "America's Native Spirit" in its 1964 resolution.[14] The 1964 resolution, however, does not contain such a statement per se; it only declares that bourbon is a distinctive product identifiable with the United States in the same way that Scotch is identifiable with Scotland.[11] The resolution has been passed each year since.

Present day

Since 2003, high-end bourbons have seen revenue grow from $450 million to over $500 million (£231 million to over £257 million or €308 million to over €343 million), some 2.2 million cases, in the United States. High-end bourbon sales accounted for eight percent of total spirits growth in 2006. Most high-end bourbons are aged for six years or longer.[15]

In 2007, United States spirits exports, virtually all of which are American whiskey, exceeded $1 billion for the first time. This represents a 15 percent increase over 2006. American whiskey is now sold in more than 100 different countries. The leading markets are the United Kingdom, Canada, Germany, Australia, and Japan. Key emerging markets for American whiskey are China, Vietnam, Brazil, Chile, Romania, and Bulgaria. [16]


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## brianwalden (Mar 18, 2009)

DSturg and Johnny, what makes a Tennessee Whiskey (at least the ones currently in production) not Bourbon? DSturg said Bourbon cannot be filtered but that's not what the requirements JohnnyFlake posted said. It said it cannot have anything other than water added to the mixture. If those are the complete requirements, then the law as it stands is silent about filtering (which doesn't add anything, but rather subtracts).

Unless there's a legal ruling that clarifies it, I don't think we can be more restrictive than the law as written. And I'd bet that it will never be clarified because the two Tennessee Whiskeys currently in existence have no interest in calling themselves Bourbon.


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## JohnnyFlake (May 31, 2006)

brianwalden said:


> DSturg and Johnny, what makes a Tennessee Whiskey (at least the ones currently in production) not Bourbon? DSturg said Bourbon cannot be filtered but that's not what the requirements JohnnyFlake posted said. It said it cannot have anything other than water added to the mixture. If those are the complete requirements, then the law as it stands is silent about filtering (which doesn't add anything, but rather subtracts).
> 
> Unless there's a legal ruling that clarifies it, I don't think we can be more restrictive than the law as written. And I'd bet that it will never be clarified because the two Tennessee Whiskeys currently in existence have no interest in calling themselves Bourbon.


There is a very long online article which gives the names of all the brands of Bourbon, Rye, Tennessee Whiskey, Etc. Jack Daniels is not listed as a Bourbon, it is listed as a Tennessee Whiskey. Under Tennessee Whiskey, this is what it states:

"A straight whiskey that is, for the most part, very similar to bourbon, which is why it's sometimes called "Tennessee bourbon." It must be made from a mash of at least 51 percent of a single grain (usually, but not always, corn), must not exceed 160 proof (80 percent alcohol), must be aged in oak barrels for 2 years and may only be diluted with water to no less than 80 proof. The biggest difference between bourbon and Tennessee whiskey is that the latter is slowly filtered through large vats of sugar-maple charcoal, which gives it a definitively sweet characteristic."


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## brianwalden (Mar 18, 2009)

JohnnyFlake said:


> There is a very long online article which gives the names of all the brands of Bourbon, Rye, Tennessee Whiskey, Etc. Jack Daniels is not listed as a Bourbon, it is listed as a Tennessee Whiskey. Under Tennessee Whiskey, this is what it states:
> 
> "A straight whiskey that is, for the most part, very similar to bourbon, which is why it's sometimes called "Tennessee bourbon." It must be made from a mash of at least 51 percent of a single grain (usually, but not always, corn), must not exceed 160 proof (80 percent alcohol), must be aged in oak barrels for 2 years and may only be diluted with water to no less than 80 proof. The biggest difference between bourbon and Tennessee whiskey is that the latter is slowly filtered through large vats of sugar-maple charcoal, which gives it a definitively sweet characteristic."


Right. A four sided figure with the sides at 90 degree angles is a rectangle. A four sided figure with the sides at 90 degree angles and all four sides the same length is a square. But a square doesn't stop being a rectangle just because it's a square; it's both a square and a rectangle.

I think everyone agrees that the only difference between Jack Daniels and any other Bourbon is that it's charcoal filtered. As far as I can tell the legal requirements for a Bourbon don't say that filtering disqualifies it from being a Bourbon. So isn't Jack Daniels both Tennessee Whiskey and Bourbon?

I will concede that it's possible for a Tennessee Whiskey to not be a Bourbon. It looks like the only requirements for Tennessee Whiskey are that it be whiskey made in TN and that it go through that special filtering process. So someone could, for example, make a whiskey in TN from less than 50% corn and filter it and have Tennessee Whiskey that's not Bourbon. But as far as I know Jack Daniels and George Dickel are the only Tennessee Whiskeys being made today and they both fulfill the requirements for Bourbon.


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## uvacom (Oct 29, 2008)

brianwalden said:


> Right. A four sided figure with the sides at 90 degree angles is a rectangle. A four sided figure with the sides at 90 degree angles and all four sides the same length is a square. But a square doesn't stop being a rectangle just because it's a square; it's both a square and a rectangle.
> 
> I think everyone agrees that the only difference between Jack Daniels and any other Bourbon is that it's charcoal filtered. As far as I can tell the legal requirements for a Bourbon don't say that filtering disqualifies it from being a Bourbon. So isn't Jack Daniels both Tennessee Whiskey and Bourbon?
> 
> I will concede that it's possible for a Tennessee Whiskey to not be a Bourbon. It looks like the only requirements for Tennessee Whiskey are that it be whiskey made in TN and that it go through that special filtering process. So someone could, for example, make a whiskey in TN from less than 50% corn and filter it and have Tennessee Whiskey that's not Bourbon. But as far as I know Jack Daniels and George Dickel are the only Tennessee Whiskeys being made today and they both fulfill the requirements for Bourbon.


Your logic is sound, however the law only codifies what *can* be called a bourbon, it does not define what a bourbon *is*. Dickel and JD both make whiskies that they could call bourbons under the law, but they choose to call them tennessee whiskies. I think maybe it's fair to say that within the context of distilled spirits, terroir is usually given a fair degree of importance (although I don't actually know if the corn for bourbons or tennessee whiskies come from geographically specific farms), so maybe it isn't such a far stretch to distinguish between the two.

On the other hand, if I'm in the mood for a good bourbon, a glass of dickel will do just fine for me.


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## JohnnyFlake (May 31, 2006)

brianwalden said:


> Right. A four sided figure with the sides at 90 degree angles is a rectangle. A four sided figure with the sides at 90 degree angles and all four sides the same length is a square. But a square doesn't stop being a rectangle just because it's a square; it's both a square and a rectangle.
> 
> I think everyone agrees that the only difference between Jack Daniels and any other Bourbon is that it's charcoal filtered. As far as I can tell the legal requirements for a Bourbon don't say that filtering disqualifies it from being a Bourbon. So isn't Jack Daniels both Tennessee Whiskey and Bourbon?
> 
> I will concede that it's possible for a Tennessee Whiskey to not be a Bourbon. It looks like the only requirements for Tennessee Whiskey are that it be whiskey made in TN and that it go through that special filtering process. So someone could, for example, make a whiskey in TN from less than 50% corn and filter it and have Tennessee Whiskey that's not Bourbon. But as far as I know Jack Daniels and George Dickel are the only Tennessee Whiskeys being made today and they both fulfill the requirements for Bourbon.


You play on words is interesting, however, not correct.

The filtering process for Tennessee Whiskey uses Sugar Maple Charcoal which certainly removes impurities, however, it also adds a flavoring component which is not used in Bourbon. That flavoring is added during the final filtering process via the use of Sugar Maple Charcoal. See below. I am puzzled as to why you feel it necessary to try and make an issue of what the truth is. It is what it is! If you chose to call a true Tennessee Whiskey a Bourbon, that's fine but why argue against what is historically accept fact?

The important thing is to drink what you like and like what you drink. If you want to call a Tennessee Whiskey a Bourbon or a Bourbon a Whiskey that's fine. Whatever makes you happy!


> There is a very long online article which gives the names of all the brands of Bourbon, Rye, Tennessee Whiskey, Etc. Jack Daniels is not listed as a Bourbon, it is listed as a Tennessee Whiskey. Under Tennessee Whiskey, this is what it states:
> 
> "A straight whiskey that is, for the most part, very similar to bourbon, which is why it's sometimes called "Tennessee bourbon." It must be made from a mash of at least 51 percent of a single grain (usually, but not always, corn), must not exceed 160 proof (80 percent alcohol), must be aged in oak barrels for 2 years and may only be diluted with water to no less than 80 proof. The biggest difference between bourbon and Tennessee whiskey is that the latter is slowly filtered through large vats of sugar-maple charcoal, which gives it a definitively sweet characteristic."


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## DSturg369 (Apr 6, 2008)

Hell, I don't care if was filtered through old pantyhose and aged in a milk jug, I'd probably drink it.

:al


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## uvacom (Oct 29, 2008)

JohnnyFlake said:


> You play on words is interesting, however, not correct.
> 
> The filtering process for Tennessee Whiskey uses Sugar Maple Charcoal which certainly removes impurities, however, it also adds a flavoring component which is not used in Bourbon. That flavoring is added during the final filtering process via the use of Sugar Maple Charcoal. See below. I am puzzled as to why you feel it necessary to try and make an issue of what the truth is. It is what it is! If you chose to call a true Tennessee Whiskey a Bourbon, that's fine but why argue against what is historically accept fact?


The sugar maple charcoal's purpose is to remove impurities, not to add flavor. Heavy wool blankets are placed above and below the charcoal in order to ensure that none of the charcoal itself makes it into the whiskey. Sugar maple is used because sugars carbonize when burned, creating a large surface area for filtering. The sugar maple charcoal is most assuredly not sweet itself. It is, in fact, charcoal.

The "added" sweetness is really removed bitterness.


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## brianwalden (Mar 18, 2009)

JohnnyFlake said:


> You play on words is interesting, however, not correct.


Maybe it's not correct, but it hasn't been proven incorrect. I think it's prudent to be loose in our interpretation of the law until it is clarified. And I assure you I'm not trying to be deceitful. I don't think that filtering the whiskey before aging is what the law had in mind when it said that nothing could be added to the mixture.



JohnnyFlake said:


> The filtering process for Tennessee Whiskey uses Sugar Maple Charcoal which certainly removes impurities, however, it also adds a flavoring component which is not used in Bourbon. That flavoring is added during the final filtering process via the use of Sugar Maple Charcoal.


I dunno, that seems like calling zippo fluid from my lighter top dressing on my tobacco. What if the barrels used to age a bourbon were charred by filling them with burning peat instead of whatever they normally use to char the barrels. That would certainly impart a different flavor on the whiskey, would it make it not bourbon? The intent of the Tennessee filtering method is to remove impurities and mellow out the flavor - it's basically a cheap aging method not a flavoring like what's in Southern Comfort.

As further evidence I present this: http://babyrific.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/jim-beam-choice.jpg

It says both Straight Bourbon and Charcoal Filtered on the label. Apparently Charcoal filtering doesn't necessarily disqualify a whiskey from being a Bourbon.



JohnnyFlake said:


> See below. I am puzzled as to why you feel it necessary to try and make an issue of what the truth is. It is what it is! If you chose to call a true Tennessee Whiskey a Bourbon, that's fine but why argue against what is historically accept fact?


I like logic problems, and this is a logic problem. This is purely academic. Even if Jack and George Dickel are also Bourbons, they're never going to call themselves Bourbon. And the Bourbon makers want the Tennessee Whiskeys to keep calling themselves Tennessee Whiskey. So in real life it's never going to be tested.

I agree 100% that the truth is what it is. Actually, in this case the truth is what the authority says it is. If the authority is the U.S. Government, we need to wait until a Tennessee Whiskey calls itself Bourbon and gets sued and then the government issues a ruling clarifying the law. If the authority is the whiskey makers and what they want to call themselves, then Bourbon and Tennessee Whiskey are two mutually exclusive categories.

But I don't think this subject is historically accepted fact. The strictly defined legal terms are relatively new - if anything history will show a long and confusing trail of definitions of whiskeys much like we currently have with defining different types of tobacco blends.



JohnnyFlake said:


> The important thing is to drink what you like and like what you drink. If you want to call a Tennessee Whiskey a Bourbon or a Bourbon a Whiskey that's fine. Whatever makes you happy!


Agreed to an extent. If I want to call Jack Daniels fruit punch, please correct me for my own sake. I guess I just don't like it when people jump on someone for calling Jack a Bourbon or turn up their nose when they see Jack listed under Bourbon on a menu. Jack won't ever call themselves a Bourbon, but my money says they wouldn't be in any legal trouble if they did.

My last bit of evidence, the Free Trade Area of the America's treaty (ALCA - FTAA - ZLEA - Draft Agreement - Chapter on Market Access) the bolding is mine:

*[*15.1. Parties shall recognize Bourbon Whiskey and *Tennessee Whiskey, which is a straight Bourbon Whisky authorized to be produced only in the State of Tennessee,* as distinctive products of the United States. Accordingly, Parties shall not permit the sale of any product as Bourbon Whiskey or Tennessee Whiskey, unless it has been manufactured in the United States in accordance with the laws and regulations of the United States governing the manufacture of Bourbon Whiskey and Tennessee Whiskey.*]*

P.S. for the sake of full disclosure I'm not a huge Jack Daniels fan or anything. I mean it's good and all, I just find the difference between it and other whiskeys too small to justify the price.


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## Old_Salt (Feb 25, 2008)

Dylan Cerling said:


> I like Wild Turkey and Jim Beam Black.
> 
> I had a bad, bad experience with Knob Creek - the only time I've had real, honest-to-god alcohol poisoning - and I'm never going to have it again.


Been there & did that! mine was with


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## JohnnyFlake (May 31, 2006)

uvacom said:


> The sugar maple charcoal's purpose is to remove impurities, not to add flavor. *Heavy wool blankets are placed above and below the charcoal in order to ensure that none of the charcoal itself makes it into the whiskey*. Sugar maple is used because sugars carbonize when burned, creating a large surface area for filtering. The sugar maple charcoal is most assuredly not sweet itself. It is, in fact, charcoal.
> 
> The "added" sweetness is really removed bitterness.


I would love to see some data on what you state above. Why is it emphasized in the following, that Sugar Maple Charcoal is used, not simply charcoal and why does it emphasize the use of Sugar Maple Charcoal that give it a definitively sweet characteristic.

Wool blankets or not (which I've never heard of) the whiskey does come in direct contact with the charcoal during the filtering process.



> "A straight whiskey that is, for the most part, very similar to bourbon, which is why it's sometimes called "Tennessee bourbon." It must be made from a mash of at least 51 percent of a single grain (usually, but not always, corn), must not exceed 160 proof (80 percent alcohol), must be aged in oak barrels for 2 years and may only be diluted with water to no less than 80 proof. *The biggest difference between bourbon and Tennessee whiskey is that the latter is slowly filtered through large vats of sugar-maple charcoal, which gives it a definitively sweet characteristic."*


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## uvacom (Oct 29, 2008)

Sugar maple is used, as I said, because of the high sugar content, so that when the wood is combusted the carbon-ash ratio will be favorable. That tree specifically is probably used because A) it's tradition, and B) because it's a good tree which is regionally available for making charcoal suitable for their purposes. 

I don't know where your article comes from, but all it says is that the filtration process gives the whiskey a characteristically sweet flavor (which is a matter of opinion, I personally find tennessee whiskeys to be somewhat "smoother" but not really sweeter than bourbons) - it doesn't say that it does so by adding sugar or any other compound. Removing the peel from an orange before you bite into it also gives the orange a characteristically sweet flavor compared to biting into the orange with the peel intact, but you are not adding anything to the orange, you are merely removing a part of it which contains unpalatable compounds.


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## JohnnyFlake (May 31, 2006)

uvacom said:


> Sugar maple is used, as I said, because of the high sugar content, so that when the wood is combusted the carbon-ash ratio will be favorable. That tree specifically is probably used because A) it's tradition, and B) because it's a good tree which is regionally available for making charcoal suitable for their purposes.
> 
> I don't know where your article comes from, but all it says is that the filtration process gives the whiskey a characteristically sweet flavor (which is a matter of opinion, I personally find tennessee whiskeys to be somewhat "smoother" but not really sweeter than bourbons) - it doesn't say that it does so by adding sugar or any other compound. Removing the peel from an orange before you bite into it also gives the orange a characteristically sweet flavor compared to biting into the orange with the peel intact, but you are not adding anything to the orange, you are merely removing a part of it which contains unpalatable compounds.


The article and much more information comes from this link:

List of whisky brands: Information from Answers.com

Well, you've come up with another great play on words. That seems to be your and Brianwalden's forte. You both say a lot in defense of your personal position, and always very well worded I might add, but prove nothing!

Anyway, it's been fun, but I'm am finished with this, as further discussion is mute! I am happily willing to accept what is historically accepted, as what it is.


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## stfoley (Jul 28, 2008)

Booker's for me....I love the stuff.

Some Booker's, and some Burley in the pipe....heaven.


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