# Looking to close the SCHIP Pipe Tobacco Loophole



## Alpedhuez55

I knew this would happen!!!

I woke up turned on the TV and saw some bad news for pipesmokers. Looks like they are going to start a little crackdown on pipe tobacco because some roll your own products relabled themselves as pipe tobacco:



> *AP IMPACT: Tobacco execs quickly find tax loophole*
> By MATT APUZZO - 6 hours ago
> 
> WASHINGTON - With a simple marketing twist, tobacco companies are avoiding hundreds of millions of dollars a year in taxes by exploiting a loophole in President Barack Obama's child health law.
> 
> Obama and Congress increased taxes on tobacco products earlier this year to pay for expanded children's health insurance, but tobacco for roll-your-own cigarettes saw a disproportionate leap, from $1.10 to $24.78 per pound. Some predicted the tax would kill the roll-your-own industry, which had offered a cheaper alternative to packaged cigarettes.
> 
> But tobacco companies quickly adapted. The Associated Press found that as soon as the tax was on the books, companies all but shut down their roll-your-own brands and reinvented them under a less-restricted, less-taxed category: pipe tobacco. It's still destined to be rolled and smoked, but it's taxed at barely a tenth the rate, $2.83 per pound.
> 
> Normally, pipe tobacco is coarser and moister than cigarette tobacco. But nothing says it has to be. In fact, the federal government says the only distinction between the two is how it's labeled. That effectively gives tobacco marketing executives an opportunity to shape the company's tax rate.
> 
> Nearly overnight, roll-your-own brands like Criss Cross and Farmers Gold came off the shelves, replaced by pipe tobacco with the same names. The cuts may be slightly different, but they're suitable for rolling. Knowing this, retailers steer customers to the new products, sometimes with a wink and a nod, sometimes with outright advertising.
> 
> "They tried to make a product within the elements of the law that they could, in fact, market as pipe tobacco," said Scott Bendett, owner of Habana Premium Cigar Shoppe in Albany, N.Y., which advertises the new pipe tobacco for hand-rolled cigarettes.
> 
> Tobacco companies say they're just trying to find a legal way to stay afloat after being saddled with an enormous tax increase.
> 
> Full article here:
> 
> The Associated Press: AP IMPACT: Tobacco execs quickly find tax loophole


Sounds like the Obama Administration is going to close the loophole. Lets hope they only go after the companies that rebranded their tobaccos as pipe tobacco and that they do not try to bring legit pipe tobacco up to RYO pricing.


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## Pugsley

Another good reason to stock up now. Thanks for this post.


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## Jack Straw

Oh no.


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## Jack Straw

Hopefully this is all they will do:

"The Obama administration says it is working on clearer definitions of pipe and roll-your-own tobacco."


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## phatmax

Government Scum.

Pure and Simple. The HORROR that it is only taxed at one tenth. 

No Taxation without REPRESENTATION.

We are not being REPRESENTED.

Act accordingly.


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## Commander Quan

It is absolutely insane that the tax of RYO tobacco went up 240% 

The Gov't is the only parasite that actually will kill the host that it needs to live off of to survive. 

Imagine what would happen if they raised the state sales tax from 6% to 25% people would go ballistic. Next is going to be soda and snack food, and than beer, wine and booze.


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## smelvis

The Bastards!!! We are the only people singled out because of our habit. The bastards!!!


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## Lefty

And to think a big part of my choosing a pipe was for the lesser cost of the consumables. I just can't afford to smoke cigars are a regular basis, much less maintain a humidor. 

This is just plain ridiculous. Not only are we in a recession (don't let anyone tell you differently) but we are heading for another prohibition. Let them legalize Marijuana and tax the hell out of IT!


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## phatmax

I bought a large amount of tobacco, mostly tinned, as soon as SCHIP hit. (and even before) I knew this would eventually happen...and I am a SLACKER compared to some of the folks on here.


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## Roddy

It's only a matter of time before pipe tobacco is taxed just as badly as everything else. Stock up while you can.


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## d_day

I have a simple solution that would not affect the tax on pipe tobacco at all. Tax the hell out of cigarette papers and tubes. Of course, it would have the added benefit of making some of those folks that use them for other than tobacco actually pay some taxes like the rest of us.

Ultimately we want to remove these taxes altogether, but taxing rolling papers and tubes seems more fair than a further bump on pipe tobacco.


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## Z.Kramer

That's it. Time to start growing my own tobacco. Can you all imagine a tobacco black market? hah.

Seriously though, I am kind of confused why pipe tobacco wasn't taxed as aggressively under SCHIP in the first place (not that I am complaining of course). I can't see there being any opposition if they try to bring the tax up to the level of rolling tobacco. Then again, I can't imagine it happening very quickly. 

I feel the need to try every tobacco I can get my hands on so I can decide what to stock up on. I need to try a bunch of English blends.


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## Mad Hatter

Well I guess someone has to pay for the frivolous or corrupt political wheeling and dealing. Here are three examples of how wisely government money is spent. Keep in mind I live in a dying community in the middle of nowhere in a town that has decreased in size by 30% in the last twenty years.

Government money for an ethanol plant. Lots of back-slapping, hand shaking, etc. In the end local figures of importance (a landowner, a few politicians and a couple of lawyers)made all the money so in the end the project could be shut down as unworkable and the land could grow up in weeds.

$400,000 for renovations and purchase price of a former bank building for a new records building for the county. Who made the money? The sherriff's father and brother, the owner of the building and whoever got their pocket patted for voting this through. Doesn't it make more sense to file on computer these days rather than buying a whole building to renovate, heat, etc for nothing but storage?

Our city reservoir is outdated and needs an upgrade. Should locals see a rise in their water bill to fund upgrades? Hell no! My bill is $13 a month. Should we tie into the county waterline that runs through the town? Hell no! We're going to build a new several million dollar waterline parallel to the county water line going to the same well. Who gets that nice government money? The crooked politicians and the local wheelers and dealers who paid them off.

Now just think of thousands of little towns around the country doing the same thing and what you get is billions and billions of dollars going to the wealthy through political channels for needless projects. No wonder we see a rise taxes.


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## phatmax

Most leftists / statists that wrote the bill probably thought pipe smoking was dead, so why bother.

Instead of more taxes and more unfunded liabilites and deficit spending....

how about the .gov stops spending money, cuts programs and stops acting like tyrants.....

Stocking up is great, but that means that after our generation is gone, and no one starts once they reach adulthood, what happens to A: Our pastime and hobby and B: The revenue base?


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## Lefty

I think I read some stats somewhere where pipe smokers had a lower instance of heart attacks mainly due to the "relaxation/stress" release factor. So in theory smoking a pipe actually HELPS keep medical/insurance costs down. So increasing the taxes on tobacco will actually HURT the medical and insurance industry.


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## Alpedhuez55

d_day said:


> I have a simple solution that would not affect the tax on pipe tobacco at all. Tax the hell out of cigarette papers and tubes. Of course, it would have the added benefit of making some of those folks that use them for other than tobacco actually pay some taxes like the rest of us.
> 
> Ultimately we want to remove these taxes altogether, but taxing rolling papers and tubes seems more fair than a further bump on pipe tobacco.


Then we will see ZigZag start calling it note-paper.

I think we can hope Government will do the right thing, but they usually make things worse. It would be nice if they go after the specific brands of RYO in question and fine them for trying to avoid the tax. But with this administration, it would not surprise me if their idea of closing this loop hole would be to raise the taxes on pipe tobacco.


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## selleri

Alpedhuez55 said:


> Normally, pipe tobacco is coarser and moister than cigarette tobacco. But nothing says it has to be.
Click to expand...

Amateurs... it has been set to stone in many EU countries already that RYO / cigarette tobacco has at least 25 % of it's contents cut to 1mm (0.03937 inch) or less in width, only if it's wider it can be called pipe tobacco.

Unfortunately the EU comission has already said that their goal is eventually a smoke-free Europe  This is the main reason why I'm stocking up my cellar.


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## MarkC

Commander Quan said:


> Next is going to be soda and snack food, and than beer, wine and booze.


I agree. The problem is NOT politicians, no matter how much you guys want to rail against them. The problem is this puritanical strain in Americans that not only lets them get away with this, but encourages them. Stop smoking, stop drinking, stop screwing in any fashion except male-female missionary position. Then we can move on to forced church attendance and compulsory home contraband inspections; it's for your own good. It's the puritans who think taxing tobacco to stamp it out is a great idea; the politicians eyes just lit up at the word 'taxes'...


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## phatmax

MarkC said:


> I agree. The problem is NOT politicians, no matter how much you guys want to rail against them. The problem is this puritanical strain in Americans that not only lets them get away with this, but encourages them. Stop smoking, stop drinking, stop screwing in any fashion except male-female missionary position. Then we can move on to forced church attendance and compulsory home contraband inspections; it's for your own good. It's the puritans who think taxing tobacco to stamp it out is a great idea; the politicians eyes just lit up at the word 'taxes'...


This has nothing to do with religion and everything to do about controlling people. Look at Europe. They do not have the "religious right" that the media likes to portray as the "buzzkills" here in America, yet they have more restrictions and taxes on tobacco products then we have.

All the people I work with are "religious right" and don't want to restrict anyone's tobacco use or boozing. They certainly don't want to force religion on anyone or have contraband inspections, unlike the Brits who will now have Health and Safety inspectors invading homes to "check"

Health and safety snoops to enter family homes - Times Online

ETA:

Just to destroy the preconception, the company I work for (1500 full-time office workers) is populated primarily with middle age, southern white males, who are religious and are gun owners. Amazingly enough they are anti-taxes, pro-freedom and allowing people to have vices, such as smoking and drinking, without government interference.

As for myself I am a far-right conservative (Reagan-style, not McCain-style) who is religious, southern (though born in NJ, a super-restrictive, high-tax hell-hole) who loves guns and smoking pipes and keeping my nose out of others business. I might not like things that others do, but I am not going to try to tax someone to try to stop them. This is America.


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## MarkC

phatmax said:


> This has nothing to do with religion and everything to do about controlling people.


I agree completely. The puritanist strain in American thought left the realm of religion centuries ago. Its part of our make-up. And it certainly has everything to do with controlling people, "for their own good", of course. The problem is you think you are fighting the government, when you are actually fighting public opinion. Politicians dont give a rats ass whether you smoke or not, as long as they get their gravy.

And I honestly have no idea why you assumed I was blaming "the right" for this; last I heard, organizers like Rob Reiner are hardly considered rightwingers...


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## phatmax

MarkC said:


> I agree completely. The puritanist strain in American thought left the realm of religion centuries ago. Its part of our make-up. And it certainly has everything to do with controlling people, "for their own good", of course. The problem is you think you are fighting the government, when you are actually fighting public opinion. Politicians dont give a rats ass whether you smoke or not, as long as they get their gravy.
> 
> And I honestly have no idea why you assumed I was blaming "the right" for this; last I heard, organizers like Rob Reiner are hardly considered rightwingers...


Well, in 99% of media, Puritan = Right = Religious, which mimics a large proportion "common knowledge" of the, well, shall we say, uninvolved people.

I did read into your comment more then you put.

The irony is, "common knowledge", (and I work with a guy who thinks like this, the ONLY guy at work that I know that voted...well, for that SCHIP guy) is that the Religous people and the conservatives want to restrict behavior, when it is the non-religious, leftist, self-imporant pompus pricks that are the ones who want that.

Sorry about the misunderstanding.

The road to hell, paved in good intentions...etc.


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## MarkC

At least we know it's paved; my feet hurt easily...


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## Alpedhuez55

phatmax said:


> The irony is, "common knowledge", (and I work with a guy who thinks like this, the ONLY guy at work that I know that voted...well, for that SCHIP guy) is that the Religous people and the conservatives want to restrict behavior, when it is the non-religious, leftist, self-imporant pompus pricks that are the ones who want that.


This is more about socialism than anything else. They raise the taxes and call it for the children. Next year they will look to push Cap and Trade which will get us closer to European level gas prices all in the name of "Global Warming" despite the fact that global temps have been in decline for a few years now. And don't forget the Health Care Bills.

Anyway, I guess we will see how the government handles this. Will they go after the companies that rebranded the RYO stuff as Pipe Tobacco or will they decide to bump up the price of all pipe tobacco.


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## phatmax

10-1 an across the board hike on taxes. Already there has been rumor of a second wave of increases.

Between "Climate Change" (You are all going to die, but we can save you if you follow our rules) and

"Healthcare" (You are all going to die, but we can save you if you follow our rules) and 

"The Economy" (You are all going to die POOR, but we can save you if you follow our rules)

It is, as you say, all about control of the population.


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## Mad Hatter

Yes, you're exactly right


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## ghe-cl

The EU has been looking at this situation for quite a while and has recognized that there's a difference between pipe tobacco and tobacco for roll-your-own cigarettes. It's plan, I believe, is to create different definitions and tax accordingly. (It's also noted that pipe smoking continues to decline and represents a tiny fraction of tobacco consumption, an implicit recognition that it isn't anywhere near as important to tax or address for their health concerns.) This situation isn't something that simply sprang up after SCHIP was approved; it was noted long before Congress voted. ATF acknowledged before the bill that it would have to revise its definitions.

I also doubt that anyone is overly concerned by the amount of tax money involved, despite the story's description of it as "huge." The story cites a figure of $32 million a month. And while this is not an exact apples-to-apples comparision, consider that $32 million a month is $384 million a year -- and the year before the SCHIP was enacted, states took in $19 billion in cigarette taxes. The loose tobacco tax money would barely register.


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## indigosmoke

Excellent points, gentleman. I thought that you might be interested in the roll call votes on SCHIP 2009 to see how the cookie actually crumbled.

*House*
Total Vote: For: 289 Against: 139 Not Voting: 6
Democrats: For: 249 Against: 2 Not Voting: 5
Republicans: For: 40 Against: 137 Not Voting: 1

*Senate*
Total Vote: For: 66 Against: 32 Not Voting: 1
Democrats (and Independents): For: 58 Against: 0 Not Voting: 1 (Ted Kennedy)
Republicans: For: 9 Against: 32

If you'd like to see how your Senators or Representative voted you can find out here:

Senate Roll Call: U.S. Senate: Legislation & Records Home > Votes > Roll Call Vote

House Roll Call: http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2009/roll016.xml


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## indigosmoke

phatmax said:


> 10-1 an across the board hike on taxes. Already there has been rumor of a second wave of increases.
> 
> Between "Climate Change" (You are all going to die, but we can save you if you follow our rules) and
> 
> "Healthcare" (You are all going to die, but we can save you if you follow our rules) and
> 
> "The Economy" (You are all going to die POOR, but we can save you if you follow our rules)
> 
> It is, as you say, all about control of the population.


:thumb:

"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."

- George Washington


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## ghe-cl

Indigosmoke - Just as an aside I think you'll find that Washington "quote" is a fabrication like so many attributed to the Founding Fathers that float endless on the Internet. The Washington "quote" appears to have been created by Upton Sinclair. Apparently, no accurate source for it has ever been found, other than in a book he edited.


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## indigosmoke

ghe said:


> Indigosmoke - Just as an aside I think you'll find that Washington "quote" is a fabrication like so many attributed to the Founding Fathers that float endless on the Internet. The Washington "quote" appears to have been created by Upton Sinclair. Apparently, no accurate source for it has ever been found, other than in a book he edited.


Whoever said it, I like it!  And in any case maybe we'll learn a lesson someday about the power we have ceded to the Federal goverment. As Gandalf once said (although I don't know if anyone can prove he said this either) "The burned hand teaches best. After that advice about fire goes to the heart!" Unfortunately, I think we're all in for some burns in the next few years. Oh well, we shall see...


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## Mad Hatter

ghe said:


> Indigosmoke - Just as an aside I think you'll find that Washington "quote" is a fabrication like so many attributed to the Founding Fathers that float endless on the Internet. The Washington "quote" appears to have been created by *Upton Sinclair*. Apparently, no accurate source for it has ever been found, other than in a book he edited.





indigosmoke said:


> Whoever said it, I like it!  And in any case *maybe we'll learn a lesson someday about the power we have ceded to the Federal goverment*. As Gandalf once said (although I don't know if anyone can prove he said this either) "The burned hand teaches best. After that advice about fire goes to the heart!" Unfortunately, I think we're all in for some burns in the next few years. Oh well, we shall see...


Upton Sinclair was a member of the American Communist Party

Actually there was a war fought to determine the role government would take. It was called the War between the States. The war in the north was waged with media propaganda and in the south with blood, sweat and tears. Nothing was ceded. Movements in the 60s and 70s clearly illustrate how far government allows dissent to go before cracking down.


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## indigosmoke

ghe said:


> The Washington "quote" appears to have been created by Upton Sinclair. Apparently, no accurate source for it has ever been found, other than in a book he edited.


What is your source for this? I'd be interested in learning more.


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## indigosmoke

Mad Hatter said:


> Upton Sinclair was a member of the American Communist Party
> 
> Actually there was a war fought to determine the role government would take. It was called the War between the States. The war in the north was waged with media propaganda and in the south with blood, sweat and tears. Nothing was ceded. Movements in the 60s and 70s clearly illustrate how far government allows dissent to go before cracking down.


I guess by ceded I meant that people continually vote for the same politicians and parties over and over and over again, regardless of the actions they take. And party loyalty shoulders much of the blame as well, IMHO. For example, my mother in law still votes a complete Democratic party line in every election regardless of the issues or candidates because of the warm fuzzys she still has for FDR, and of course many Repubs do the same out of loyalty to Reagan or whoever. Oh well, in any case, the Supreme's can find a way to justify any federal government action by some twisted logic related to the Commerce Clause. You are quite correct though...when we lost the states' rights argument we began to fall down the slippery slope of out of control federal government control of basically everything. I believe it was Shelby Foote who remarked that most of the states would have never joined the Union if they didn't think they could withdraw if the people of the state so decided. Damn that Alexander Hamilton and US Grant. LOL! Well, I'm off my soapbox. These types of threads can be dangerous to the brotherhood of the briar, as political fires burn hot. If only I had more self control I would have stayed out of this thread, as unfortunately tobacco has become very political topic.


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## indigosmoke

Mad Hatter said:


> The war in the north was waged with media propaganda and in the south with blood, sweat and tears.


Interesting point. I remember the first time I drove down 95 through VA and saw a sign saying to exit here for the Stonewall Jackson Shrine. Now in the north we might have a US Grant memorial or monument. But "shrine". Now that tells you a thing or two about how feelings about the war differed north and south.


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## Mad Hatter

indigosmoke said:


> I guess by ceded I meant that people continually vote for the same politicians and parties over and over and over again, regardless of the actions they take. And party loyalty shoulder's much of the blame as well, IMHO. For example, my mother in law still votes a complete Democratic party line in every election regardless of the issues or candidates because of the warm fuzzys she still has for FDR, and of course many Repubs do the same out of loyalty to Reagan or whoever. Oh well, in any case, the Supreme's can find a way to justify any federal government action by some twisted logic related to the Commerce Clause. You are quite correct though...when we lost the states' rights argument we began to fall down the slippery slope of out of control federal government control of basically everything. I believe it was Shelby Foote who remarked that most of the states would have never joined the Union if they didn't think they could withdraw if the people of the state so decided. Damn that Alexander Hamilton and US Grant. LOL!


Nothing better illustrates the ability of the American people to affect change than the two party system. Third parties are essentially banned by means of blackballing since they cannot participate without consent from the jackasses and elephants. Sure, they can talk all they want but all the talk in the world does no good without being allowed on the ballot, especially if the media play their cards. Until people stop cozying up to their favorite media outlet and siding with the team who tells them what they want to hear, nothing will change. I adamantly maintain that the corporate media in America serves two main purposes: to divide the population and conquer free thinking. To the victors go the spoils


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## indigosmoke

Mad Hatter said:


> Until people stop cozying up to their favorite media outlet and siding with the team who tells them what they want to hear, nothing will change. I adamantly maintain that the corporate media in America serves two main purposes: to divide the population and conquer free thinking. To the victors go the spoils


Talk about distilling the argument to it's essence. Right on the money, MH!


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## Mad Hatter

indigosmoke said:


> Interesting point. I remember the first time I drove down 95 through VA and saw a sign saying to exit here for the Stonewall Jackson Shrine. Now in the north we might have a US Grant memorial or monument. But "shrine". Now that tells you a thing or two about how feelings about the war differed north and south.


We were, and still are, taught in the north that the Civil War was about ending slavery....... just like we Americans are taught WWI was a war to make the world safe for democracy.......... and so on and so forth. I'm actually starting to believe there is more truth to be had from the conquered rather than the conquerors.


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## indigosmoke

Mad Hatter said:


> We were, and still are, taught in the north that the Civil War was about ending slavery....... just like we Americans are taught WWI was a war to make the world safe for democracy.......... and so on and so forth. I'm actually starting to believe there is more truth to be had from the conquered rather than the conquerors.


"He gazed up at the enormous face. Forty years it had taken him to learn what kind of smile was hidden beneath the dark moustache. O cruel, needless misunderstanding! O stubborn, self-willed exile from the loving breast! Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother."

WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH


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## Mad Hatter




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## Jack Straw

Mad Hatter said:


> The corporate media in America serves two main purposes: to divide the population and conquer free thinking. To the victors go the spoils.


Quoted for truth.


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## MarkC

Mad Hatter said:


> We were, and still are, taught in the north that the Civil War was about ending slavery....... just like we Americans are taught WWI was a war to make the world safe for democracy.......... and so on and so forth. I'm actually starting to believe there is more truth to be had from the conquered rather than the conquerors.


I have never in my life heard anyone claim that the war was about ending slavery. Slavery was the central issue that divided the nation from the beginning, but the war wasnt about ending it. I went to school in both the north (Washington) and the south (Georgia), but I never heard anyone ever claim this. Of course, high school history is all watered down BS anyway.

One comment on the political nature of this thread: if you cant see nutcases on both sides of the political spectrum, odds are you are one yourself.


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## Mad Hatter

MarkC said:


> I have never in my life heard anyone claim that the war was about ending slavery. Slavery was the central issue that divided the nation from the beginning, but the war wasnt about ending it. I went to school in both the north (Washington) and the south (Georgia), but I never heard anyone ever claim this. Of course, high school history is all watered down BS anyway.
> 
> One comment on the political nature of this thread: if you cant see nutcases on both sides of the political spectrum, odds are you are one yourself.


Well I guess you're not from the Land of Lincoln  Actually I'm a little sick of hearing about Lincoln as all the towns in this area scramble for their little claim to fame and erect commemorative statues. Hey, believe it or not, Pittsfield has about six houses where the would be president spent the night during his law career! Now doesn't that make you wanna come visit?


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## Alpedhuez55

MarkC said:


> I have never in my life heard anyone claim that the war was about ending slavery. Slavery was the central issue that divided the nation from the beginning, but the war wasnt about ending it. I went to school in both the north (Washington) and the south (Georgia), but I never heard anyone ever claim this. Of course, high school history is all watered down BS anyway.
> 
> One comment on the political nature of this thread: if you cant see nutcases on both sides of the political spectrum, odds are you are one yourself.


It is called the War of Northern Aggression here :thumb:


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## indigosmoke

Alpedhuez55 said:


> It is called the War of Northern Aggression here :thumb:


LOL


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## ejgarnut

My opinion is this. 

Since RYO is/was a fair amount cheaper than store-bought cigarettes, the only way the government could encourage us unwashed masses to discontinue making our own, and start purchasing pre-mades, is to raise the cost of RYO tobacco. The increase in taxes for a pound of RYO went from about $3 per pound to about $22. Tubes and rolling papers also saw a large tax increase.

Once you factor in the new cost of tobacco and tubes, plus the amount of time invested, a person might as well purchase a carton of marlboros. This will effectively put the RYO companies out of business.

Then, when everyone has switched over to buying pre-mades, what do you think the government has in mind? 

I am guessing that one of the hidden, or add later provisions to the proposed healthcare disaster will be that, you have to be a non-smoker to be accepted. Couple that with the provision that says you will be fined, or jailed, if you dont purchase the gov healthcare. It sure aint gonna be happy days for cigarette smokers. 

But dont worry. They'll never try doing that to cigar or pipe smokers....


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## ejgarnut

Alpedhuez55 said:


> I think we can hope Government will do the right thing, but they usually make things worse. It would be nice if they go after the specific brands of RYO in question and fine them for trying to avoid the tax.


Not trying to start an argument here, but the right thing for the government to do, would be to reset the tax to where it was previously on RYO and tubes, cigars, pipe tobacco, and all other forms of tobacco. Then it should just leave all of us the hell alone and let us live our lives the way we see fit.

:thumb:


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## phatmax

ejgarnut said:


> Not trying to start an argument here, but the right thing for the government to do, would be to reset the tax to where it was previously on RYO and tubes, cigars, pipe tobacco, and all other forms of tobacco. Then it should just leave all of us the hell alone and let us live our lives the way we see fit.
> 
> :thumb:


LOL, yeah and while they are at it, vote themselves term limits and reduce payroll taxes.


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## Alpedhuez55

ejgarnut said:


> But dont worry. They'll never try doing that to cigar or pipe smokers....


Famous last words :hn

I am sure the alcohol manufacturers were talking like that before Prohibition.

I just do not trust the Government to deal with things like this in a rational manner. It is just not how they work. If a job requires a scalpel...they will use a chainsaw. I am not saying they are going to raise taxes on pipe tobacco just yet...but I would keep a close eye on things when they try to close the loophole.


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## indigosmoke

First they came for the cigarette smokers and I did not speak out because I was not a cigarette smoker.
Then they came for the roll your own smokers and I did not speak out because I was not a roll your own smoker.
Then they came for the cigar smokers and I did not speak out because I was not a cigar smoker.
Then they came for the pipe tobacco smokers and there was no one left to speak out for me.


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## Z.Kramer

Alpedhuez55 said:


> I just do not trust the Government to deal with things like this in a rational manner. It is just not how they work. If a job requires a scalpel...they will use a chainsaw.


I think one of the biggest problem with the US is too many citizens DO trust the government to take care of things. If everyone would just take personal responsibility and provide all the need for themselves through hard work, and plan the be independent from the government, the country would be in a better place. This spreading mentality of entitlement has potential to ruin the country.

A day's work for a day's pay seems to be such a foreign concept.


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## MarkC

phatmax said:


> LOL, yeah and while they are at it, vote themselves term limits and reduce payroll taxes.


Dont look now, but payroll taxes were reduced this year. Term limits? I wouldnt hold my breath...


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## KBibbs

Anyone else have a problem with the legitimacy of obama's "presidency"? Am I the only person who seems to realize that without his birth certificate, obama CAN NOT BE PRESIDENT? I heard a story a while ago where obama's aunt, I believe it was, said that she was there when he was born...and not in the U.S. If he's not native born, he can't be president. If he's not president, he can't be making laws. (I'm not saying this to insult any of you or anything like that, just saying)


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## indigosmoke

KBibbs said:


> Anyone else have a problem with the legitimacy of obama's "presidency"? Am I the only person who seems to realize that without his birth certificate, obama CAN NOT BE PRESIDENT? I heard a story a while ago where obama's aunt, I believe it was, said that she was there when he was born...and not in the U.S. If he's not native born, he can't be president. If he's not president, he can't be making laws. (I'm not saying this to insult any of you or anything like that, just saying)


Oh boy, oh boy...this should draw some interesting replies.


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## MarkC

KBibbs said:


> Anyone else have a problem with the legitimacy of obama's "presidency"? Am I the only person who seems to realize that without his birth certificate, obama CAN NOT BE PRESIDENT? I heard a story a while ago where obama's aunt, I believe it was, said that she was there when he was born...and not in the U.S. If he's not native born, he can't be president. If he's not president, he can't be making laws. (I'm not saying this to insult any of you or anything like that, just saying)


Wow. I didn't realize this crowd was that far out. I've met some really nice people here, and I'll miss them, but I think I'll take my leave now. If you guys are this divorced from reality, I think I'll leave. Take care, all.


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## indigosmoke

MarkC said:


> Wow. I didn't realize this crowd was that far out. I've met some really nice people here, and I'll miss them, but I think I'll take my leave now. If you guys are this divorced from reality, I think I'll leave. Take care, all.


I was afraid this would happen. Don't go Mark. Let's stop all the political BS and get back to pipes and tobacco. We can't afford to lose a fellow Python fan.


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## JP_26

WOW! complete bullshit. I was wondering when they would catch on. Shows you the incompetence of our government. I noticed this a while ago, some of the online stores were selling 16oz bags of pipe tobacco but the flavors were light, menthol, regular ect...At first I was confused then I realized they were ducking the SCHIP tax. How can you blame them though?

I can't wait till its 25 dollars for a 12 pack of soda and 20 bucks for a value meal at mcdonalds! WOHOO!

Complete BS.


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## KBibbs

MarkC said:


> Wow. I didn't realize this crowd was that far out. I've met some really nice people here, and I'll miss them, but I think I'll take my leave now. If you guys are this divorced from reality, I think I'll leave. Take care, all.


This was my exact reason for posting the "(I'm not saying this to insult any of you or anything like that, just saying)" part. Those are merely my personal views. If you don't agree, that's 100% fine by me, but that doesn't seem- to me at least- any reason why I should be being insulted here. Remember, judge not lest ye be judged.


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## Cletus

KBibbs said:


> Anyone else have a problem with the legitimacy of obama's "presidency"? Am I the only person who seems to realize that without his birth certificate, obama CAN NOT BE PRESIDENT? I heard a story a while ago where obama's aunt, I believe it was, said that she was there when he was born...and not in the U.S. If he's not native born, he can't be president. If he's not president, he can't be making laws. (I'm not saying this to insult any of you or anything like that, just saying)


The Birthers didn't go far enough...

Afterbirthers Demand To See Obama's Placenta

.


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## Arizona

I just ordered 7 pounds of my blend - Black n Gold (one blend smoker here!). That will keep me for a few years easily, especially considering I already have about 5 pounds on hand now. 

Stowed away neatly packed in large Mason jars - aging to perfection and insurance against the whims of Big Brother...


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## Habanolover

KBibbs said:


> Anyone else have a problem with the legitimacy of obama's "presidency"? Am I the only person who seems to realize that without his birth certificate, obama CAN NOT BE PRESIDENT? I heard a story a while ago where obama's aunt, I believe it was, said that she was there when he was born...and not in the U.S. If he's not native born, he can't be president. If he's not president, he can't be making laws. (I'm not saying this to insult any of you or anything like that, just saying)


Let's try to stay on topic here. The topic is about the possible closing of a loophole that would have an effect on us. *It is not about Birth Certificates, term limits , Repubs or Dems.
*
If the thread cannot stay on topic we will have no choice but to lock it.


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## MarkC

My apologies to all for my last post. I've learned my lesson; from now on I'll simply avoid any thread that looks like it could become political. And ignore any other political posts I run across. I hope y'all don't mind if I decide to stay after all; I just have to keep in mind the rule that serves well at family reunions: don't discuss politics, religion, or the proper preparation of fried chicken. (Don't laugh; I've seen arguments come close to blows over that last one!)


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## smelvis

MarkC said:


> My apologies to all for my last post. I've learned my lesson; from now on I'll simply avoid any thread that looks like it could become political. And ignore any other political posts I run across. I hope y'all don't mind if I decide to stay after all; I just have to keep in mind the rule that serves well at family reunions: don't discuss politics, religion, or the proper preparation of fried chicken. (Don't laugh; I've seen arguments come close to blows over that last one!)


Way Cool Dude, This is a better place with you!!

Yeah I always start saying George Carlins seven words when I discuss politics, so if I have a choice I simply don't. :thumb:


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## dmkerr

MarkC said:


> My apologies to all for my last post. I've learned my lesson; from now on I'll simply avoid any thread that looks like it could become political. And ignore any other political posts I run across. I hope y'all don't mind if I decide to stay after all; I just have to keep in mind the rule that serves well at family reunions: don't discuss politics, religion, or the proper preparation of fried chicken. (Don't laugh; I've seen arguments come close to blows over that last one!)


My philosophy is that since politics, religion and the preparation of fried chicken, et al are beliefs, and beliefs are such personal things, and no one changes their beliefs based on someone else's beliefs (or facts, for that matter!), it's not only safer not to discuss them, it's pointless to do so. Nothing ever gets accomplished except hurt feelings.

Glad you stayed!


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## indigosmoke

MarkC said:


> My apologies to all for my last post. I've learned my lesson; from now on I'll simply avoid any thread that looks like it could become political. And ignore any other political posts I run across. I hope y'all don't mind if I decide to stay after all; I just have to keep in mind the rule that serves well at family reunions: don't discuss politics, religion, or the proper preparation of fried chicken. (Don't laugh; I've seen arguments come close to blows over that last one!)


Glad you are back Mark! It would have been a loss to our community if you had left.


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## indigosmoke

dmkerr said:


> My philosophy is that since politics, religion and the preparation of fried chicken, et al are beliefs, and beliefs are such personal things, and no one changes their beliefs based on someone else's beliefs (or facts, for that matter!), it's not only safer not to discuss them, it's pointless to do so. Nothing ever gets accomplished except hurt feelings.
> 
> Glad you stayed!


Now those are some wise words.


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## Alpedhuez55

MarkC said:


> My apologies to all for my last post. I've learned my lesson; from now on I'll simply avoid any thread that looks like it could become political. And ignore any other political posts I run across. I hope y'all don't mind if I decide to stay after all; I just have to keep in mind the rule that serves well at family reunions: don't discuss politics, religion, or the proper preparation of fried chicken. (Don't laugh; I've seen arguments come close to blows over that last one!)


Well, the Birth Certificate post was pretty far off topic on a SCHIP post about Pipe Tobacco. Any post about taxes can turn Anti Obama pretty quickly since he and the democratic congress are spearheading higher taxes on tobacco.

THis is a shop that is getting into trouble for using Pipe Tobacco in cigarette machines.

Brookline tobacco shop ordered to stop use of cigarette rolling machines - NashuaTelegraph.com

I think we will see more of this.


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## ejgarnut

Alpedhuez55 said:


> Well, the Birth Certificate post was pretty far off topic on a SCHIP post about Pipe Tobacco. Any post about taxes can turn Anti Obama pretty quickly since he and the democratic congress are spearheading higher taxes on tobacco.
> 
> THis is a shop that is getting into trouble for using Pipe Tobacco in cigarette machines.
> 
> Brookline tobacco shop ordered to stop use of cigarette rolling machines - NashuaTelegraph.com
> 
> I think we will see more of this.


The last paragraph in the article you link to pretty much says it all....

{
Attorney General Delaney said "This Office will continue to be diligent in its enforcement of all laws relating to the sale of tobacco products in the State." The Attorney General further noted that the retail price for these cigarettes was so low that young people would have found them affordable. "Not only did Tobacco Haven's plan violate the law, but it placed a dangerous and addictive product within the financial reach of vulnerable children. The State has an obligation to its citizens to make sure this does not continue," he added.
}

Ok, it is already against the law to sell tobacco products to underage persons, so why is Attorney General Delaney worried whether children can afford them or not??

The double speak of these statists is just infuriating, using the pretense of protecting children to justify robbing us of our hard earned money. Disgraceful!


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