# Now I understand what the sick period is...



## RcktS4 (Jan 13, 2005)

Smoked two PSD4's this week from my Nov 04 box. They have been astonishingly good smokes until this week, but the one I had sunday was just remarkably flat. Strength was still there, but it tasted like a Torano - just strong, no spice, no change over the duration - in short, NO complexity whatsoever. I have been having some allergies the past two weeks, so I hoped maybe it was my tastebuds giving me the problem. But then I smoked a Famoso tuesday that proved to me that my tastebuds were fine ( :w ).

So yesterday I tried (wasted) another PSD4 just to be sure. It was so sad - by the time I got through the first inch I knew it wasn't going to get any better. It was like talking to your witty best friend after he's had a lobotomy: I knew the poor cigar couldn't help it, and I tried to love it anyway, but it was really nothing but a disappointment. I managed to smoke it down to about an inch and a half, but to be honest I was thinking of the Famosos the whole time and wishing I was with it.

I have about 18 left in this box, and it'll be sitting until at least next year (I understand 6-9 months seems to be the consensus with these) healing up. 

I suppose its something you can't really understand until you experience it, but I am now a firm believer in the 'sick' period. Over the course of a week, these went from my favorite smoke to something I really couldn't wait to be done with. Ah well, I guess that's one way to force me to do a little 'aging'.


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## MiamiE (Mar 5, 2005)

i got my PSD4 box with SVF MAR05. when should these hit their sick period?
also will my RASS SEU DIC04 box go bad also? how long should i let each rest?


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## RPB67 (Mar 26, 2005)

I try to age my Habanos atleast 12 months. That seems to be a good time. I have some that have been aging over 3 years. I would go with atleast 12 monts or better.


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## RcktS4 (Jan 13, 2005)

MiamiE said:


> i got my PSD4 box with SVF MAR05. when should these hit their sick period?
> also will my RASS SEU DIC04 box go bad also? how long should i let each rest?


From what I've read, there seem to be a lot of people who think the PSD4 hits a 6-9 month sick period at around 6 months old. If this holds true, yours should be good until near winter.

Some people (notably IHT) however, report never having had them go sick.

I would go with: if they get sick, stash the rest. Trust me, if they go sick YOU WILL KNOW IT. If they taste good, keep smoking 'em!

I can't speak to the RASS, no experience (though i know people seem to like these with some age to them).


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## coppertop (Dec 29, 2003)

RcktS4 said:


> Smoked two PSD4's this week from my Nov 04 box. They have been astonishingly good smokes until this week, but the one I had sunday was just remarkably flat. Strength was still there, but it tasted like a Torano - just strong, no spice, no change over the duration - in short, NO complexity whatsoever. I have been having some allergies the past two weeks, so I hoped maybe it was my tastebuds giving me the problem. But then I smoked a Famoso tuesday that proved to me that my tastebuds were fine ( :w ).
> 
> So yesterday I tried (wasted) another PSD4 just to be sure. It was so sad - by the time I got through the first inch I knew it wasn't going to get any better. It was like talking to your witty best friend after he's had a lobotomy: I knew the poor cigar couldn't help it, and I tried to love it anyway, but it was really nothing but a disappointment. I managed to smoke it down to about an inch and a half, but to be honest I was thinking of the Famosos the whole time and wishing I was with it.
> 
> ...


Raney

I know what you mean.....that is how mine tasted when they were in there sick period. Let them rest like you said. I would try one in a year, and then put them aside for awhile longer. Since these have entered there sick period, I would let them rest a little longer then a year.......


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## RcktS4 (Jan 13, 2005)

coppertop said:


> Raney
> 
> I know what you mean.....that is how mine tasted when they were in there sick period. Let them rest like you said. I would try one in a year, and then put them aside for awhile longer. Since these have entered there sick period, I would let them rest a little longer then a year.......


Yeah, that makes sense Mike, thanks.

I suppose the only good solution to this problem is to buy a 'fresh' box to smoke now... Oh woe is me... woe is me.


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## MiamiE (Mar 5, 2005)

whats your box code Raney? mine is Mar 05


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## coppertop (Dec 29, 2003)

RcktS4 said:


> Yeah, that makes sense Mike, thanks.
> 
> I suppose the only good solution to this problem is to buy a 'fresh' box to smoke now... Oh woe is me... woe is me.


Yep, sounds like it


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## RcktS4 (Jan 13, 2005)

MiamiE said:


> whats your box code Raney? mine is Mar 05


I don't have the factory code in front of me, but the date is Nov 04. I'll put up the factory tonight or tomorrow after I get home. You should probably smoke 'em really fast :w 

j'k - I'm sure yours will have quite a while before they go sick, if at all Erick.


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## Nely (Nov 11, 2004)

I got the same date and box code as MiamiE. They smoke very good even though they were so fresh, I split the box with a friend, gave some out and now I only have about 10 of them. They will not make it to their sick period that's for sure


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## MiamiE (Mar 5, 2005)

i hope they dont get sick!!!


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## One Lonely Smoker (Jan 21, 2005)

Nely said:


> I got the same date and box code as MiamiE. They smoke very good even though they were so fresh, I split the box with a friend, gave some out and now I only have about 10 of them. They will not make it to their sick period that's for sure


 Ain't that always the way? You get your hands on some great new smokes and you are handicapped right out of the box and assaulted at every turn. When Coppertop demanded that he be allowed to share my Partagas 898's, my lip began to tremble and a tear welled up in my eye. I had been aging them for a few years, never even touched em, much less tasted em and now the bundle was coming apart. He took 3, I smoked one, gave one to my new boss and now I am 20% down on em and once they're cracked, you know what happens then. That's why I can't stand to box split. You're half-gone from Jump St.....hehehe.
And I tell you another thing, when I start this new job, I am going to slam my vendor hard. I think I actually like buying them better than I do smoking them. Is that wrong?


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## DownUnder LLG (Mar 29, 2005)

RcktS4 said:


> I knew the poor cigar couldn't help it, and I tried to love it anyway, but it was really nothing but a disappointment. I managed to smoke it down to about an inch and a half, but to be honest I was thinking of the Famosos the whole time and wishing I was with it.


Sounds like one of those times when you are with a woman and you wish she was somebody else.... not that I would know 

I just had somebody bring back a couple of PSD4's from the east coast of Oz for me to try. Only thing is he didn't check the box code so I am completely in the dark. I have heard so much about these cigars and they appear to be a fav with almost every gorilla here.
I have wanted to try these for a long time now, imagine this..... the sticks I've got could be in their sick period now and I can't tell cause I don't have the box code/date, I smoke them and they taste like :BS , I could be put off PSD4's for ever  ohh the horror....

It will never happen


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## Nely (Nov 11, 2004)

One Lonely Smoker said:


> Ain't that always the way? You get your hands on some great new smokes and you are handicapped right out of the box and assaulted at every turn. When Coppertop demanded that he be allowed to share my Partagas 898's, my lip began to tremble and a tear welled up in my eye. I had been aging them for a few years, never even touched em, much less tasted em and now the bundle was coming apart. He took 3, I smoked one, gave one to my new boss and now I am 20% down on em and once they're cracked, you know what happens then. That's why I can't stand to box split. You're half-gone from Jump St.....hehehe.
> And I tell you another thing, when I start this new job, I am going to slam my vendor hard. I think I actually like buying them better than I do smoking them. Is that wrong?


No brother there is nothing wrong with that, I love buying cigars too, specially the ones that i can't have...oooh the excitement and the agony of waiting on those stogies can only be compared to early childhood memories. 
Oh yeah by the way, don't let coppertop intimidate you like that, stand your ground man.


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## D. Generate (Jul 1, 2004)

One Lonely Smoker said:


> I think I actually like buying them better than I do smoking them. Is that wrong?


There's nothing wrong with that at all. I hear that to really increase the enjoyment, you should have them shipped to an address in Reno.


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## RcktS4 (Jan 13, 2005)

D. Generate said:


> There's nothing wrong with that at all. I hear that to really increase the enjoyment, you should have them shipped to an address in Reno.


Or, double your pleasure, double your fun by sending them to BOTH sides of the country!

It's just a waste sending them to people in the heartland...


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

I've posted about the D4's before. Great cigar when on, but they are very finicky as far as how quick they seem to go sick. They also seem to have a longer sick period than most Cubans. You can't find them with any age so I tend to not buy them any more. I can usually find the 898's (Varnished) with a few years age, and to me they are as good.


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## LasciviousXXX (Oct 12, 2004)

Fredster is correct as to the difficulty of finding already aged PSD4's however his suggestion on the 898's is right on 

Or I have another suggestion, you could just buy and smoke an entire box of the D4's in one month


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## CigarTom (Aug 27, 2003)

I don't buy any of this stuff about sick periods. The "sick period" is a demonstration of human nature and not something physical that occurs in cigars as far as I am concerned. One person posts some crap, then someone agrees with it, and before you know it, everywhere you go they're talking about how the PSD4's go through this "sick period."

You're telling me that a cigar company takes some good tobacco, makes a cigar out of it, it tastes good for a while, then it goes through changes which make it taste bad, then it tastes good again? I say bull dinky. Where is snopes.com when you need them?

If you buy a box of cigars and they taste good when you get them and then they start going bad, I'd say you better check your storage methods. In premium cigars, the tobacco is already aged and they're not going to using tobacco which hasn't been properly fermented and cured. When a reputable manufacturer sells a cigar, it's ready to smoke. If you store it properly, it's good to smoke anytime you feel like smoking it.

The "sick period" gives wannabe cigar experts the opportunity to display their ability to detect the most subtle nuances of taste between cigars. The attitude seems to be, if you don't know that PSD4's go through the sick period then you must not know anything about cigars.

Anybody who wants to believe the sick period baloney, knock yourself out. I think you're being duped.


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## Smokem94 (Mar 18, 2005)

CigarTom said:


> I don't buy any of this stuff about sick periods. The "sick period" is a demonstration of human nature and not something physical that occurs in cigars as far as I am concerned. One person posts some crap, then someone agrees with it, and before you know it, everywhere you go they're talking about how the PSD4's go through this "sick period."
> 
> You're telling me that a cigar company takes some good tobacco, makes a cigar out of it, it tastes good for a while, then it goes through changes which make it taste bad, then it tastes good again? I say bull dinky. Where is snopes.com when you need them?
> 
> ...


It is a fact, a chemical reaction which occurs as the tobacco ages and ferments. It doesn't have anything to do with "wannabe cigar experts".


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## CigarTom (Aug 27, 2003)

Smokem94 said:


> It is a fact, a chemical reaction which occurs as the tobacco ages and ferments. It doesn't have anything to do with "wannabe cigar experts".


I don't know how you determined that it is a "fact." Unless you have some sort of scientific data that substantiates your position, I would say that you subscribe to a different opinion than I do.

The fermentation process occurs after the tobacco has been cured and is bulked. By the time the tobacco is in the roller's hands, the fermentation process should be over. If you're smoking a cigar that hasn't been properly fermented, it's a little too late to think you're gonna stick it in your humidor and it will improve with time.

By the time a cigar is in your humidor, I'm inclined to think there is very little going on chemically. Mixing one tobacco leaf with another isn't going create much chemically. The flavors may meld, but the concept of those flavors going from good to bad to good again kinda defies logic.

You're certainly entitled to your own opinion, but I stick to my original premise: the "sick period" has more to do with peer group pressure than science.


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## RcktS4 (Jan 13, 2005)

CigarTom said:


> I don't buy any of this stuff about sick periods. The "sick period" is a demonstration of human nature and not something physical that occurs in cigars as far as I am concerned. One person posts some crap, then someone agrees with it, and before you know it, everywhere you go they're talking about how the PSD4's go through this "sick period."
> 
> You're telling me that a cigar company takes some good tobacco, makes a cigar out of it, it tastes good for a while, then it goes through changes which make it taste bad, then it tastes good again? I say bull dinky. Where is snopes.com when you need them?
> 
> ...


You know, as I clicked the 'read post' link next to that little item letting me know that you had been placed on my 'ignore' list (I personally do not believe in this silly 'ignore' command, and I am sure that it is a way for the uninitiated to make friends and influence people, but when in rome...) I was unprepared for what i read.

So I am eternally grateful that I have this opportunity to thank you for your incredibly erudite observations. You know there was a brief period of time in there that I had actually resorted to trusting my own tastebuds. Silly me - I shall chastise myself by sitting in a corner and thinking about what I have done while smoking the cigars that I had become delusional about.

It helps so much to know that the great and mighty CigarTom has recognized me for the idiotic follower that I am. You have not only spared me having to taste cigars for myself, you have undoubtedly saved me years of undue therapy.

So once again, Tom, thank you for contrinuting ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to this discussion. I am so pleased to have learned that I am one of those unfortunate people who believes everything they read that as a symbol of my eternal gratitude I will be leaving you on my ignore list as a sign of the idiocy of such a concept. Vive LA REVOLUCION!

And payno attention to that further drop in Ring Guage - its just a plot by the unwashed conservative masses to undermine your übermensch status.


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## Smokem94 (Mar 18, 2005)

RcktS4 said:


> You know, as I clicked the 'read post' link next to that little item letting me know that you had been placed on my 'ignore' list (I personally do not believe in this silly 'ignore' command, and I am sure that it is a way for the uninitiated to make friends and influence people, but when in rome...) I was unprepared for what i read.
> 
> So I am eternally grateful that I have this opportunity to thank you for your incredibly erudite observations. You know there was a brief period of time in there that I had actually resorted to trusting my own tastebuds. Silly me - I shall chastise myself by sitting in a corner and thinking about what I have done while smoking the cigars that I had become delusional about.
> 
> ...


Thanks.....I couldn't have said it better myself.


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## RcktS4 (Jan 13, 2005)

Oh - and I almost forgot you consolation prize: For Tom


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

LasciviousXXX said:


> Fredster is correct as to the difficulty of finding already aged PSD4's however his suggestion on the 898's is right on
> 
> Or I have another suggestion, you could just buy and smoke an entire box of the D4's in one month


Smoke them in a month, I like the way you think!


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

CigarTom said:


> I don't buy any of this stuff about sick periods. The "sick period" is a demonstration of human nature and not something physical that occurs in cigars as far as I am concerned. One person posts some crap, then someone agrees with it, and before you know it, everywhere you go they're talking about how the PSD4's go through this "sick period."
> 
> You're telling me that a cigar company takes some good tobacco, makes a cigar out of it, it tastes good for a while, then it goes through changes which make it taste bad, then it tastes good again? I say bull dinky. Where is snopes.com when you need them?
> 
> ...


 Dude you are totally clueless. We are not talking about Domestic cigars here. We are talking about CUBANS, and they usually have a sick period. Some more pronounced than others. If you don't think so then you are not experienced with Cubans or you are just an idiot.Why do you think a cigar improves as it ages? It's because the tobacco continues to ferment as it ages. That is not an opinion, it is a fact. When tobacco ferments it gives off certain chemicals as a result of the process. Ammonia being one of them. I am not a cigar expert, I'm simply a guy who has been smoking Cubans for close to a decade. I've smoked thousands of Cubans and witnessed time and time again cigars totally changing in a matter of months, sometimes years. If you don't know what you are talking about why are you posting here?


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## The Prince (Apr 9, 2005)

CigarTom said:


> I don't buy any of this stuff about sick periods. The "sick period" is a demonstration of human nature and not something physical that occurs in cigars as far as I am concerned. One person posts some crap, then someone agrees with it, and before you know it, everywhere you go they're talking about how the PSD4's go through this "sick period."
> 
> You're telling me that a cigar company takes some good tobacco, makes a cigar out of it, it tastes good for a while, then it goes through changes which make it taste bad, then it tastes good again? I say bull dinky. Where is snopes.com when you need them?
> 
> ...


You really need to get a clue. You probably buy all your well aged cigars at CTO, right?


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## The Rev (Feb 26, 2005)

"Madness, Madness" -----Bridge on the River Kwai

This is such a fascinating discussion. I hope more smokers comment. 

I still don't get what the point of collecting or aging cigars is if they don't change over time. Is there really anyone suggesting that the flavor of a well preserved cigar doesn't change? I can understand that some particular brands may not change much, or some may change for the better or worse, but I just haven't heard many cigar smokers--laymen or experts who argue that the flavor doesn't change at all---period.

So, I guess the argument is that the change must be progressively for the better or for the worse like a slope and a plateau or stage where the binder or a dominant leaf may reach a peak in its effusion of oils which may dominate the flavor at some stage or drown out other flavors or for some other reason cause a sick period, is impossible.

OR Is it actually being suggested that cigars don't change after they have been shipped? Does that somehow stop the aging process?


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## The Prince (Apr 9, 2005)

The Rev said:


> "Madness, Madness" -----Bridge on the River Kwai
> 
> This is such a fascinating discussion. I hope more smokers comment.
> 
> ...


Every cigar changes over time. Almost always for the better. When the cigar ship from the vendor has no weight insofar as the aging process.


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## The Rev (Feb 26, 2005)

I was being a more than a little facetious with the shipping from the vendor comment. I just couldn't believe what I was reading!


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## Moglman-cl (May 27, 2005)

Great stuff, but dagnabit, my first box of PSD4s is in transit as I type, and now by brain is churning. This plan may change, but I am thinking 20% for immediate enjoyment and the remaining 80% for at least a year (maybe two) down the line. I am such a BH when it comes to 'gars that I am not worried that I won't have any ISOMs to enjoy.


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## CigarTom (Aug 27, 2003)

Fredster said:


> Dude you are totally clueless. We are not talking about Domestic cigars here. We are talking about CUBANS, and they usually have a sick period. Some more pronounced than others. If you don't think so then you are not experienced with Cubans or you are just an idiot.Why do you think a cigar improves as it ages? It's because the tobacco continues to ferment as it ages. That is not an opinion, it is a fact. When tobacco ferments it gives off certain chemicals as a result of the process. Ammonia being one of them. I am not a cigar expert, I'm simply a guy who has been smoking Cubans for close to a decade. I've smoked thousands of Cubans and witnessed time and time again cigars totally changing in a matter of months, sometimes years. If you don't know what you are talking about why are you posting here?


Fredster,
Like I said earlier, if anyone dares question something like the "sick period" myth, the immediate response from those who have subscribed to the myth is that I don't know what I'm talking about. Your declaring me to be "totally clueless" falls into this category.

I don't care whether we're talking about Cuban cigars or Domestic cigars. The particular cigar I referred to was the PSD4, which is a Cuban cigar. And, I didn't say cigars don't age. So before you get into labelling me as being totally clueless, why don't you read what I wrote?

What I said was that I don't buy the notion of a "sick period." You might buy a cigar that improves when you age it. Or, you may age a cigar which might have been better if you smoked it earlier. But this notion that you buy a cigar and first its good, then its bad for a few months, and then it becomes good again sounds like complete b.s. to me.

Common sense and my own experience tells me that whichever direction a cigar is headed, either towards getting better or towards getting worse, it is going to happen in a gradual, linear type of progression. This "sick period" concept that has been promulgated by those who have been swayed to believe it, has the cigar's chemistry going berserk, from good to bad to good, shortly after a person receives them. This defies logic.

As for your comment that cigars ferment while they age, I'm not so sure about that. The fermentation process takes place after the tobacco has been cured. The leaves are packed into bulks; moist and deprived of oxygen. Fermentation takes place when the tempertures within the bulk rise to 100+ degrees. When the temperature rises to a certain point, the bulks are taken apart and the leaves are shuffled and put back together again to cause uniform fermentation. Once the fermentation process is complete and the tobacco goes into aging, I don't think it begins to ferment again in your humidor at some later date. Fermentation requires high temperatures and the deprivation of oxygen. Fermentation is part of the rotting process and the purpose of keeping your cigars at 70/70 (or therabouts) is to prevent anything like that from happening. The gases created during fermentation disappear with aging.

Premium cigars are going to be made of tobacco that has been aged properly and the amount of foul gases remaining in the tobacco when it is rolled is going to be minute. Aging in your humidor might get rid of a small amount of the undesirable odors, however, if the producer hasn't gotten rid of most of them in the aging process, and rolls the cigars prematurely, I doubt you're going to have too much success improving the cigar in your humidor. You say I'm the one who is "totally clueless" yet you seem to think you're fermenting cigars in your humidor?

You've been so nice to me; calling me totally clueless, calling me an idiot, and questioning why I post here when I don't know anything. I feel I owe you something. I'm going to reward you with the advance notice of the next great cigar myth- Never smoke a Partagas Lusitania while there's a full moon (unless of course its a leap year). Start spreading that one around.


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## IHT (Dec 27, 2003)

unfortunately, you all had to quote this "guy" and it allowed me to read his first post...

so, i clicked on this last one....

i'm in shock that he actually posted information about cigars  , i think that's the 1st one on club stogie. way to go.

"sick period" is a myth... it's all a myth that forces you all to age your young PSD4s when the tastes start to change... 

btw - i agree with fredster, although it's still a myth... i mean it... :fu


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## RcktS4 (Jan 13, 2005)

CigarTom said:


> Fredster,
> Like I said earlier, if anyone dares question something like the "sick period" myth, the immediate response from those who have subscribed to the myth is that I don't know what I'm talking about. Your declaring me to be "totally clueless" falls into this category.


Tom, you are not clueless because you question the myth - you are clueless because you have no clue. Hence the etymological formation of the word: clue-less, or _sans clue_ in the french.

The fact is that the overwhelming opinion among the helpful and very knowledgable on this board is that the sick period exists. You appear to me to be the exact opposite of knowledgeable and helpful, so why the hell do I care what you have to say? The only thing I can count on you for is to have a completely contrarian viewpoint and piss poor social skills.



CigarTom said:


> What I said was that I don't buy the notion of a "sick period." You might buy a cigar that improves when you age it. Or, you may age a cigar which might have been better if you smoked it earlier. But this notion that you buy a cigar and first its good, then its bad for a few months, and then it becomes good again sounds like complete b.s. to me.
> 
> Common sense and my own experience tells me that whichever direction a cigar is headed, either towards getting better or towards getting worse, it is going to happen in a gradual, linear type of progression. This "sick period" concept that has been promulgated by those who have been swayed to believe it, has the cigar's chemistry going berserk, from good to bad to good, shortly after a person receives them. This defies logic.


It is not chemistry gone berserk, it is simply not the straightforward linear progression you would like to think it is. If you believe believe that chemical processes inevitably begin, set a trajectory, and proceed directly and unswervingly to that end, I suggest you move beyond the Mr. Wizard college of higher learning.



CigarTom said:


> _ blah blah blah - fermentation - blah blah blah I am very smart and you are an idiot blah blah blah - my momma didn't potty train me until I was twelve and I hate all women blah blah blah_




the fact is that a quick review of your post history IMMEDIATELY evidences a man in dire need of attention, and with only one technique for acquiring it: take an oppositional viewpoint and defend it with circular logic, word trappings, and sheer obnoxious windbaggedness.

You are clearly addicted to controversy, and that's fine, but could you do it somewhere else? I was trying to talk about cigars.



CigarTom said:


> You've been so nice to me; calling me totally clueless, calling me an idiot, and questioning why I post here when I don't know anything. I feel I owe you something. I'm going to reward you with the advance notice of the next great cigar myth- Never smoke a Partagas Lusitania while there's a full moon (unless of course its a leap year). Start spreading that one around.


And you've been so annoying, I'm going to reward you with the secret of happiness: Pilates. In Traffic. Do Pilates in rush hour traffic several times a day, and watch the world get happier and more peaceful. Seriously - just try it.


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## coppertop (Dec 29, 2003)

CigarTom said:


> Fredster,
> Like I said earlier, if anyone dares question something like the "sick period" myth, the immediate response from those who have subscribed to the myth is that I don't know what I'm talking about. Your declaring me to be "totally clueless" falls into this category.
> 
> I don't care whether we're talking about Cuban cigars or Domestic cigars. The particular cigar I referred to was the PSD4, which is a Cuban cigar. And, I didn't say cigars don't age. So before you get into labelling me as being totally clueless, why don't you read what I wrote?
> ...


Well, where to start. First off, here is the definition of Fermentation. Pay close attention to the bold part.

Main Entry: fer·men·ta·tion 
Pronunciation: "f&r-m&n-'tA-sh&n, -"men-
Function: noun
1 a : a chemical change with effervescence b : an enzymatically controlled anaerobic breakdown of an energy-rich compound (as a carbohydrate to carbon dioxide and alcohol or to an organic acid); broadly :* an enzymatically controlled transformation of an organic compound*

Now last time I checked, tobacco would be classified under an organic compound/material. Also...just in case you were not aware. Cubans are not *AGED* prior to shipping. With the exception of the Cohiba Reservas and PSD4 Reservas...plus a few others. Most of your normal run of the mill  Cubans recieve no aging prior to shipping. It is up to the Vendor or yourself to age them. Unlike your Domestics. I've tasted several cigars in there sick period....I know for a FACT this occurs. And you know what. Min Ron NEE also believes in a cigars "sick period." You do know who he is....right? I think your believes are rather obtuse. I wish I had a PSD4 to send you that was already in it's sick period. And since you think Fred is a nut maybe some of our older FOGs can comment on this "sick period" for you. For now, I'll I've got to say is you don't seem to know much about it. Obviously you smoke mostly domestics, but we wouldn't know since this thread is the first time you have really talked about cigars...and now we know why. You don't know shit!


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## LasciviousXXX (Oct 12, 2004)

CigarTom, I'm starting to get the feeling that you don't buy into the "sick" period of certain cigars. Its just a hunch but I'm starting to get that impression 

Seriously though, you are saying that there is no such thing as a sick period but at the same time you buy into the fact that you can buy a cigar and have it get better with age. In my opinion these 2 thoughts are in the same line of thought. Now maybe would it be possible for a cigar to have outstanding strong spicy flavor when freshly rolled and then smooth out and mature with age? Wouldn't this also describe the "sick" period. Good and strong when first rolled and then it loses some of that strength with time but does not hit peak performance again till properly aged. This sounds like the sick period to me

All I'm saying is I think you DO buy into the sick period you just might have a different definition of it. I think the people who believe in the sick period might just not prefer the taste of the PSD4 when they hit this certain change. The like the strength of fresh rolled and they like the maturity of the smoke when properly aged.

I think this is the case with most gorillas who smoke aged cigars. Some of the guys around here don't smoke anything that's under five years old unless its a Fresh wet Custom Rolled smoke. If you wanted to take that theory and run with it they would say that all cigars hit a sick period for 5 years after their rolled. If you look at it that way you might see that the sick period is all about perception.


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## coppertop (Dec 29, 2003)

LasciviousXXX said:


> CigarTom, I'm starting to get the feeling that you don't buy into the "sick" period of certain cigars. Its just a hunch but I'm starting to get that impression
> 
> Seriously though, you are saying that there is no such thing as a sick period but at the same time you buy into the fact that you can buy a cigar and have it get better with age. In my opinion these 2 thoughts are in the same line of thought. Now maybe would it be possible for a cigar to have outstanding strong spicy flavor when freshly rolled and then smooth out and mature with age? Wouldn't this also describe the "sick" period. Good and strong when first rolled and then it loses some of that strength with time but does not hit peak performance again till properly aged. This sounds like the sick period to me
> 
> ...


Actually the sick period refers to an Ammonia like taste when you draw from the cigar. Although you are right, I personally prefer a young PSD4. But with a few years on them they are a more balance, well rounded cigar. But the "sick period" refers to the Ammonia like taste. No one, would want to smoke a cigar during this period, it would taste worse then a White Owl. But that doesn't matter, it is a figment of our collective imaginations. Isn't that right Tom?


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## colgate (Jan 18, 2005)

coppertop said:


> Actually the sick period refers to an Ammonia like taste when you draw from the cigar. Although you are right, I personally prefer a young PSD4. But with a few years on them they are a more balance, well rounded cigar. But the "sick period" refers to the Ammonia like taste. No one, would want to smoke a cigar during this period, it would taste worse then a White Owl. But that doesn't matter, it is a figment of our collective imaginations. Isn't that right Tom?


I dunno but I find cigars are much more enjoyable when they aren't over-humidified. Too much humidity makes my cigars taste very sick. Same deal?


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## IHT (Dec 27, 2003)

i'm still surprised he talked about a cigar!!  
been damn near 2 yrs on here and 80+ posts, and that's the first time ever!!

we should have a contest.

we'll call it, "PDS, can we have a _stronger_ ignore level added and name it, "CigarTom"? When you absolutely, positively don't want to read any of this dudes :BS"


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## coppertop (Dec 29, 2003)

OK....here is a thread where this so called "sick period" was discussed in length. I would suggest reading it, and pay close attention to WayneN replies. He is one of the resident experts there...amoung many. He is highly thought of and extremely well respected.

"Sick period" vs "Flat period"


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## coppertop (Dec 29, 2003)

colgate said:


> I dunno but I find cigars are much more enjoyable when they aren't over-humidified. Too much humidity makes my cigars taste very sick. Same deal?


nope....you're smoking cigars that are "wet" from being over humidified. Not the same thing, lower your humidity and let them rest for a few months. Most cigars that are over humidified tend to me flat, tough draw and very harsh...at least this is my experience.


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## RcktS4 (Jan 13, 2005)

IHT said:


> i'm still surprised he talked about a cigar!!
> been damn near 2 yrs on here and 80+ posts, and that's the first time ever!!
> 
> we should have a contest.
> ...


How about a This jerk List. As in "add CigarTom to your This Jerk List?"

I have about 15 or so of these PSD4s left. I am seriously considering smoking one of these every 6 or 8 weeks as an experiment to see how this period progresses. I know it is a bit of a waste, but I'm very curious about when/how they come out of this. Anyone ever tried this? Do they 'pop out' of the sick period as quickly as they seem to enter it?


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## coppertop (Dec 29, 2003)

RcktS4 said:


> How about a This jerk List. As in "add CigarTom to your This Jerk List?"
> 
> I have about 15 or so of these PSD4s left. I am seriously considering smoking one of these every 6 or 8 weeks as an experiment to see how this period progresses. I know it is a bit of a waste, but I'm very curious about when/how they come out of this. Anyone ever tried this? Do they 'pop out' of the sick period as quickly as they seem to enter it?


Raney, when I firsted tasted the ammonia in mine....I set the whole box aside for about 6 months. The next one I had was not sick. I have no idea if the pop out of there sick period, or if it is progressive. Honestly, I wouldn't waste your cigars.


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## colgate (Jan 18, 2005)

coppertop said:


> nope....your smoking cigars that are "wet" from being over humidified. Not the same thing, lower your humidity and let them rest for a few months. Most cigars that are over humidified tend to me flat, tough draw and very harsh...at least this is my experience.


Yep - flat, tough draw and very harsh. Gotta go slower when I decide to charge my beads. I had 65 RH beads for about 4 months and never touched them. Then I couldn't seem to get my humidity above 60 for a couple of days and decided to wet em a week ago. Well my humidity problems are the other way now. I'll get it figured out MAYBE before I die.


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## CigarTom (Aug 27, 2003)

This reminds me of "the Emperor's New Clothes" where the emporer was hoodwinked into buying invisible clothes. The villagers, each too worried about what the others in the village might say, jumped on the bandwagon and actually believed the Emperor was wearing some beautiful new clothes.
A little boy who hadn't learned how to behave like a sheep yet and to just follow along with what everyone else believes was the only one who could see the truth.

Hey, I'm sorry if I burst someone's bubble. The PSD4 myth demonstrates the power of persuasion. Each defender of the myth resorts to using the fact that other believers of the myth believe in the myth , so it must be true. And no one ever wants to admit they're wrong, so they vehemently defend the myth even if it makes no sense.

According to Hop Sing, Min Ron Lee doesn't know what he's talking about. Now I don't know who to believe.

By the way, did you hear that you're not supposed to smoke Partagas Lusitanias during the full moon?


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## coppertop (Dec 29, 2003)

colgate said:


> Yep - flat, tough draw and very harsh. Gotta go slower when I decide to charge my beads. I had 65 RH beads for about 4 months and never touched them. Then I couldn't seem to get my humidity above 60 for a couple of days and decided to wet em a week ago. Well my humidity problems are the other way now. I'll get it figured out MAYBE before I die.


may I make a suggestion....do NOT actually pour water on your media...this will cause them to crack and turn into dust. I've seen it with my own eyes. Instead, go to Walmart. In the ladies section you can find cheap knee high pantyhose. Buy one...it's like .97 cents (they come in a clear little ball). Take you Climmax media, divide it in half and distribute it into the pantyhose. Then, if your humidity drops, take a shot glass, fill it with distilled water and wrap the pantyhose around the shot glass (wrap them around the bottom of the glass, with the shot glass being in the middle of the pantyhose). As the water evaporates, the media will absorb the evaporation and raise the humidity. Or...just sit the shot glass on the bottom and they will still absorb the water as it evaporates....simple, won't ruin your media and when the level is right you can remove the shot glass.


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## coppertop (Dec 29, 2003)

CigarTom said:


> This reminds me of "the Emperor's New Clothes" where the emporer was hoodwinked into buying invisible clothes. The villagers, each too worried about what the others in the village might say, jumped on the bandwagon and actually believed the Emperor was wearing some beautiful new clothes.
> A little boy who hadn't learned how to behave like a sheep yet and to just follow along with what everyone else believes was the only one who could see the truth.
> 
> Hey, I'm sorry if I burst someone's bubble. The PSD4 myth demonstrates the power of persuasion. Each defender of the myth resorts to using the fact that other believers of the myth believe in the myth , so it must be true. And no one ever wants to admit they're wrong, so they vehemently defend the myth even if it makes no sense.
> ...


Well since I've never heard of Hop Sing...I'll belive a guy who has written a very large white book all on Post Revolutionary Cuban cigars. Been to Cuba, talked with Torcedores, owners and Cuban Cuban cigar experts. Has smoked and owns some of the rarest Cuban cigars in the world. Oh, and has the full backing of Habanos S.A. WTF has this Hop Sing guy written or done. Personally, I think you are full of more shit then a Goose.


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## RcktS4 (Jan 13, 2005)

CigarTom said:


> This reminds me of "the Emperor's New Clothes" where the emporer was hoodwinked into buying invisible clothes. The villagers, each too worried about what the others in the village might say, jumped on the bandwagon and actually believed the Emperor was wearing some beautiful new clothes.
> A little boy who hadn't learned how to behave like a sheep yet and to just follow along with what everyone else believes was the only one who could see the truth.


So what're you trying to say? I should be believe you just because you read Aesop's fables?

Seriously Tom - pilates + traffic + you = world peace. Think about it.


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## colgate (Jan 18, 2005)

coppertop said:


> may I make a suggestion....do NOT actually pour water on your media...this will cause them to crack and turn into dust. I've seen it with my own eyes. Instead, go to Walmart. In the ladies section you can find cheap knee high pantyhose. Buy one...it's like .97 cents (they come in a clear little ball). Take you Climmax media, divide it in half and distribute it into the pantyhose. Then, if your humidity drops, take a shot glass, fill it with distilled water and wrap the pantyhose around the shot glass (wrap them around the bottom of the glass, with the shot glass being in the middle of the pantyhose). As the water evaporates, the media will absorb the evaporation and raise the humidity. Or...just sit the shot glass on the bottom and they will still absorb the water as it evaporates....simple, won't ruin your media and when the level is right you can remove the shot glass.


Will do. Hope I didn't ruin my beads. Only did it once and they look fine now.


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## CigarTom (Aug 27, 2003)

LasciviousXXX said:


> CigarTom, I'm starting to get the feeling that you don't buy into the "sick" period of certain cigars. Its just a hunch but I'm starting to get that impression
> 
> Seriously though, you are saying that there is no such thing as a sick period but at the same time you buy into the fact that you can buy a cigar and have it get better with age. In my opinion these 2 thoughts are in the same line of thought. Now maybe would it be possible for a cigar to have outstanding strong spicy flavor when freshly rolled and then smooth out and mature with age? Wouldn't this also describe the "sick" period. Good and strong when first rolled and then it loses some of that strength with time but does not hit peak performance again till properly aged. This sounds like the sick period to me
> 
> ...


Lascivious,
First, thank you for your courteous response. It is refreshing to have someone respond to one of my posts without resorting to name-calling. You'd think I'd be entitled to my own opinion without such childish responses from those who disagree with me.

My observation has been that cigars change slowly in one direction or the other (better or worse) over time. Not a lot of activity occurs in a humidor kept at stable temperatures and humidity- that's the objective of proper storage. If you've bought a box of cigars and they're good when you got them, then they go bad for 6 months, then they get good again, I'd say you have a problem with your storage methods. Maybe its too much humidity and then they dry out again.

I don't seem to have any problems with any cigars. I have a digitally-controlled humidor and I calibrate it about once a year with a salt test. I don't seem to have draw problems, construction problems, mold problems, beetles problems, or sick period problems. I buy cigars from all over the place, put them in the humidor, smoke them fresh, aged a little, aged a lot, and I enjoy them all.

When I read stuff like the PSD4 theory, or that you must age this particular brand of cigar, or that you should buy from this factory, or that you ought to buy a particular date code, I can't help but be amused because I don't believe those people know what they're talking about. There may be a person or two in the world that might be in the position to really know the answer to some of these issues (like a blender in the factory, or someone who is in the position to make thousands of comparisons) but, from my perspective, those who seem to act like they have the most expertise in these areas are actually full of baloney.


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## CigarTom (Aug 27, 2003)

RcktS4 said:


> How about a This jerk List. As in "add CigarTom to your This Jerk List?"
> 
> I have about 15 or so of these PSD4s left. I am seriously considering smoking one of these every 6 or 8 weeks as an experiment to see how this period progresses. I know it is a bit of a waste, but I'm very curious about when/how they come out of this. Anyone ever tried this? Do they 'pop out' of the sick period as quickly as they seem to enter it?


RcktS4,

Yes, I have tried this. My experience was that there was no noticeable sick period for the cigars to "pop out" of. The notion of cigars "popping" in an out as you describe it, is a fallacy. I hope this helps clear up some of your apparent confusion.


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## CigarTom (Aug 27, 2003)

Also...just in case you were not aware. Cubans are not *AGED* prior to shipping. With the exception of the Cohiba Reservas and PSD4 Reservas...plus a few others. Most of your normal run of the mill  Cubans recieve no aging prior to shipping. It is up to the Vendor or yourself to age them. .... You don't know shit![/QUOTE]

I don't know where you're getting your information from. Tobacco is cured, fermented, then trimmed, then aged, then rolled, then aged for at least a short period of time, and then boxed.

The first aging process is going to last at least a couple of years for a premium cigar. This is absolutley necessary because when the leaves are done fermenting, the odors and gases that are left over need time to dissipate.

After the first aging, the leaves are moistened before rolling. After the cigars have been rolled, they need to dry out again and so the cigars are aged again before being boxed and shipped.

Additional aging after you've received them may be a good thing, or it could be a bad thing depending on how you store them. Frankly, if I were keeping my cigars in something other than a humidor, like a cooler for example, where the cigars might be subject to wider variations in humidity, I'd smoke them up before something bad happened to them. It's not that easy to maintain the optimum conditions for aging and I think that for most cigar smokers it is probably more likely that they would allow their cigars to deteriorate by trying to age them then to improve them by aging.


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## CigarTom (Aug 27, 2003)

The first paragraph of my last post was a partial quote from Coppertop. I don't know why its not in the quote box any more.


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## Lumpold (Apr 28, 2005)

put [ quote=coppertop ] with out the spaces in front it!


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## LasciviousXXX (Oct 12, 2004)

CigarTom said:


> Lascivious,
> First, thank you for your courteous response. It is refreshing to have someone respond to one of my posts without resorting to name-calling. You'd think I'd be entitled to my own opinion without such childish responses from those who disagree with me.
> 
> My observation has been that cigars change slowly in one direction or the other (better or worse) over time. Not a lot of activity occurs in a humidor kept at stable temperatures and humidity- that's the objective of proper storage. If you've bought a box of cigars and they're good when you got them, then they go bad for 6 months, then they get good again, I'd say you have a problem with your storage methods. Maybe its too much humidity and then they dry out again.
> ...


CigarTom, I understand your position however I disagree with it.

While I understand that YOU personally have not had problems with the "sick" period there are many who I know and respect that have experienced this. If it happened to some guy I didn't know very well I probably wouldn't give it much credence however these are guys I KNOW that are far more knowledgeable than most on the subject of cigars. Your theory does not explain how these guys ran in to that problem. These guys have no reason to just "go along with the crowd" and agree with the sick period theory. Most have forgotten more about cigars than I currently know.

So you can't really convince me that it doesn't exist for the sheer number of stand up guys I know that have experienced it. All it tells me is that you've never had a problem with it. Hell IHT has never had a PSD4 go through the sick period but I'm not gonna go around and say that it doesn't exists simply because of one guys opinion.

I understand that you've never personally experienced it but saying that the people that have "Don't Know What They're Talking About" is wreckless and untrue. Like I said...... Perception


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## coppertop (Dec 29, 2003)

CigarTom said:


> I don't know where you're getting your information from. Tobacco is cured, fermented, then trimmed, then aged, then rolled, then aged for at least a short period of time, and then boxed.
> 
> The first aging process is going to last at least a couple of years for a premium cigar. This is absolutley necessary because when the leaves are done fermenting, the odors and gases that are left over need time to dissipate.
> 
> ...


I am getting my information from more reliable sources then you. So know you know everything about the fermenting process, the way they are rolled....WOW you are the man. I guess everyone else is full of shit. And only you know the truth. Well thank you for gracing us with your benevolent presence. I, for one, am humbled by your supreme knowledge of everything cigar related. What do people like MRN know.....I mean if Habanos S.A. trusts him he must be an idiot. LOL....well, thanks for clearing that up. Have a great day and enjoy you Premium already aged cigars.


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## coppertop (Dec 29, 2003)

colgate said:


> Will do. Hope I didn't ruin my beads. Only did it once and they look fine now.


I'm sure they'll be fine. But don't listen to me...I'd ask CigarTom what he thinks LOL


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

CigarTom said:


> Fredster,
> Like I said earlier, if anyone dares question something like the "sick period" myth, the immediate response from those who have subscribed to the myth is that I don't know what I'm talking about. Your declaring me to be "totally clueless" falls into this category.
> 
> I don't care whether we're talking about Cuban cigars or Domestic cigars. The particular cigar I referred to was the PSD4, which is a Cuban cigar. And, I didn't say cigars don't age. So before you get into labelling me as being totally clueless, why don't you read what I wrote?
> ...


Tom, 
Your response is again CLUELESS! You can study all the info on cigars and fermentation processes all you want, you still don't know what the hell you are talking about. I don't care if you THINK the sick period is B.S. I KNOW it's not from smoking mostly Cubans for the last 10 years. You keep saying a cigar "manufacturer" so I assume you are talking about domestics. There is only one manufacturer in Cuba, and the tobacco is not aged, unless it's a special edition or something (Coppertop already mentioned this). There is a process going on when cigars age that is similar to the intial fermentation process. No they are not heated again or deprived of oxygen in the humidor, but they are still going through a living process where they are expelling many noxious gases and moisture. During this process the cigars take on a "SICK" taste. A lot of times they will not taste partcularly bad, but just flat. I'm not talking about a subtle taste difference that you have to be Gordon Mott from Cigar Afficionado to detect. I'm talking about a night and day difference in a relatively short period of time (sometimes as little as a month or two), that anybody that has taste buds can taste. The D4's in particular seem to be a cigar that this sick period is very pronounced and comes on very fast. This is a fact my friend as I have witnessed this time and time again. My last box of D4's had about a months age. Very spicy and strong. They had a youthfull harshness to them. After a couple months I pulled one out and it was a totally different cigar. No spice and very one noted. Also went from full bodied to pretty weak. They gradually improved but it takes a year or two. Now, why does this sick period seem so much more pronounced in this cigar. I don't know for sure, but my guess is because it is a very popular cigar, and everyone has trouble keeping them in stock. So I believe the tobacco does not get to sit around a month or two at the factories like other brands. It could also be that the blend is cause for the pronounced sick period in these. They definately have a lot of ligero in them compared to other Cubans. Whatever the case, they have sick period where they do not taste good. If you don't realize this then like I said before you have little or no experience with Cubans and should not be posting about what you THINK. How many D4's have you smoked Tom? Also if you don't like being called cluless and an idiot, then don't be an asshole and call someone a "cigar expert wannabe" because you lack eperience and don't understand something!


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## coppertop (Dec 29, 2003)

Fredster said:


> Tom,
> Your response is again CLUELESS! You can study all the info on cigars and fermentation processes all you want, you still don't know what the hell you are talking about. I don't care if you THINK the sick period is B.S. I KNOW it's not from smoking mostly Cubans for the last 10 years. You keep saying a cigar "manufacturer" so I assume you are talking about domestics. There is only one manufacturer in Cuba, and the tobacco is not aged, unless it's a special edition or something (Coppertop already mentioned this). There is a process going on when cigars age that is similar to the intial fermentation process. No they are not heated again or deprived of oxygen in the humidor, but they are still going through a living process where they are expelling many noxious gases and moisture. During this process the cigars take on a "SICK" taste. A lot of times they will not taste partcularly bad, but just flat. I'm not talking about a subtle taste difference that you have to be Gordon Mott from Cigar Afficionado to detect. I'm talking about a night and day difference in a relatively short period of time (sometimes as little as a month or two), that anybody that has taste buds can taste. The D4's in particular seem to be a cigar that this sick period is very pronounced and comes on very fast. This is a fact my friend as I have witnessed this time and time again. My last box of D4's had about a months age. Very spicy and strong. They had a youthfull harshness to them. After a couple months I pulled one out and it was a totally different cigar. No spice and very one noted. Also went from full bodied to pretty weak. They gradually improved but it takes a year or two. Now, why does this sick period seem so much more pronounced in this cigar. I don't know for sure, but my guess is because it is a very popular cigar, and everyone has trouble keeping them in stock. So I believe the tobacco does not get to sit around a month or two at the factories like other brands. It could also be that the blend is cause for the pronounced sick period in these. They definately have a lot of ligero in them compared to other Cubans. Whatever the case, they have sick period where they do not taste good. If you don't realize this then like I said before you have little or no experience with Cubans and should not be posting about what you THINK. How many D4's have you smoked Tom? Also if you don't like being called cluless and an idiot, then don't be an asshole and call someone a "cigar expert wannabe" because you lack eperience and don't understand something!


Fred..I think you would have better luck talking to a wall then this guy. I KNOW you KNOW WTF you are talking about. But this guy thinks because his Opus X are aged before they are shipped then he *ASS*umes *ALL* cigars must be. And since his cigars never go through a "Sick Period" then it must be a figment of our imagination. Thats like saying because my dog doesn't bark at the moon, then all dogs must not bark at the moon. I'm going to go smoke one of my already aged at the factory Cuban cigars now....so you'll please excuse me


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## altbier (Feb 20, 2005)

If it smells like cat piss to me, I am calling it sick!


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## coppertop (Dec 29, 2003)

altbier said:


> If it smells like cat piss to me, I am calling it sick!


can't argue with that


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

coppertop said:


> Fred..I think you would have better luck talking to a wall then this guy. I KNOW you KNOW WTF you are talking about. But this guy thinks because his Opus X are aged before they are shipped then he *ASS*umes *ALL* cigars must be. And since his cigars never go through a "Sick Period" then it must be a figment of our imagination. Thats like saying because my dog doesn't bark at the moon, then all dogs must not bark at the moon. I'm going to go smoke one of my already aged at the factory Cuban cigars now....so you'll please excuse me


I think you are right. Enjoy that factory aged smoke!


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## coppertop (Dec 29, 2003)

Fredster said:


> I think you are right. Enjoy that factory aged smoke!


Oh I am...thanks to Bruce5. Party SDC#3...yummy


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## The Prince (Apr 9, 2005)

Cigartom. Have you ever emailed or called vendors, asking them if there is such a thing as the "sick period?" If not, I suggest you do so. If anyone knows, it's going to be the REPUTABLE vendors, who have been, not only selling habanos, but also enjoying them for decades. Furthermore, I suggest you read Min Ron Nee. Maybe all the members here can pitch in enough pennies to purchase the book for you, so you can become enlighted.


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## coppertop (Dec 29, 2003)

The Prince said:


> Cigartom. Have you ever emailed or called vendors, asking them if there is such a thing as the "sick period?" If not, I suggest you do so. If anyone knows, it's going to be the REPUTABLE vendors, who have been, not only selling habanos, but also enjoying them for decades. Furthermore, I suggest you read Min Ron Nee. Maybe all the members here can pitch in enough pennies to purchase the book for you, so you can become enlighted.


Phil....I wouldn't donate half a penny for this guy. Let him believe what he wants. We obviously don't know wtf we are talking about. LOL. Great advice though. My guess is he wouldn't know a real cuban if Fidel handed him one in person


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

coppertop said:


> Oh I am...thanks to Bruce5. Party SDC#3...yummy


Had a couple good smokes today also. Had 3 cabs of 50 waiting at the office today when I went to work. A certain vendor is having a 10% off sale on cabs and I could not resist filling the humi to the top. Bruce is taking some off my hands also. Had an 01 S.L.R. churchill followed by a 99 Partagas Londsdale. Both were fantastic. The S.L.R. was a great afternoon smoke. Very complex and flavorfull with a solid med. body. The Part. was an asskicker. Very rich and full. Part. flavor profile, but different than a short or an 898 varn. I'm glad Bruce talked me into it!


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## coppertop (Dec 29, 2003)

Fredster said:


> Had a couple good smokes today also. Had 3 cabs of 50 waiting at the office today when I went to work. A certain vendor is having a 10% off sale on cabs and I could not resist filling the humi to the top. Bruce is taking some off my hands also. Had an 01 S.L.R. churchill followed by a 99 Partagas Londsdale. Both were fantastic. The S.L.R. was a great afternoon smoke. Very complex and flavorfull with a solid med. body. The Part. was an asskicker. Very rich and full. Part. flavor profile, but different than a short or an 898 varn. I'm glad Bruce talked me into it!


Bruce told me about your split....love the Party Lonsdale...that and the 898V are some of my favorite.


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## Cigar Chic (Feb 19, 2004)

CigarTom said:


> According to Hop Sing, Min Ron Lee doesn't know what he's talking about. Now I don't know who to believe.


Min Ron Nee is from Hong Kong. He is one of the most knowledgeable habano connoisseurs. He collects, studies, and smokes every Habano available, from vintage cigars, to the machine-made. He has written a book entitled "An Illustrated Encyclopedia of Post-revolution Havana Cigars." He is considered and expert in the field of Habanos Cigars.

Min Ron Nee with the experience and knowledge gained from many other real connoisseurs, believe that cigars go through different stages and YES one of them is a sick period.

"The sick period is the period when an ammoniac smell is still detectable in a newly manufactured cigar. The tobacco leaf is moistened before being rolled into a cigar. This invites accelerated fermentation which generates a lot of ammonia." He goes on to state: "The time period for the disappearance of the ammoniac smell is influenced by rate of fermentation, packaging and storage conditions."
For the majority of cigars (if handled properly) the sick period is over for 90% of the cigars within a few months, the rest are usually gone by the end of the first year, and practically ALL gone by the end of the second year.
(There was more detail on this, but wanted to get the major points across)

If you don't believe Min Ron Nee's explanation of a sick period, then maybe you would believe the manufacturer of some Habanos.
It is plainly stated on a box of 1996 Rafael Gonzalez Lonsdales: "In order that the Connoisseur may fully appreciate the perfect fragrance they should be smoked either within one month of the date of shipment from Havana or should be carefully matured for about one year."

(I am giving credit to Min Ron Nee and have quotes, so I hope I haven't violated any copy right laws)

CigarTom, most people come to the boards to gain knowledge and share knowledge. I am hoping to share the knowledge that I have learned and I am giving it as I hope that it will be graciously received. I am also going to give you some advice, please don't slander people; the Hop Sing comment was WAY out of line.

Thank you for reading.


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## altbier (Feb 20, 2005)

Nice post. Is this book still in publication?


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## Cigar Chic (Feb 19, 2004)

altbier said:


> Nice post. Is this book still in publication?


The word on the street is, that there is going to be a second re-print of the book and that it will be available to the "main stream" here in the US; but only 1000 copies. It looks as though it may be available via Amazon.com. If I find out any more information, I will be sure to pass it along. I believe it is still available with some over seas vendors.


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## coppertop (Dec 29, 2003)

Thanks for typing all that out CC.....glad someone with MRN book decided to.


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## IHT (Dec 27, 2003)

Cigar Chic said:


> The word on the street is, that there is going to be a second re-print of the book and that it will be available to the "main stream" here in the US; but only 1000 copies. It looks as though it may be available via Amazon.com. If I find out any more information, I will be sure to pass it along. I believe it is still available with some over seas vendors.


can you WAIT to pass along the info until some of us have secured ours??!! :c


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

Tom,
There are a lot of people here with a lot of knowledge and experience. A lot of them much more than myself. Most are very friendly and willing to share that knowledge and experience. If you had written your post differently like "I have not experienced a sick period before with my cigars. What exactly is it and how do you know it exists?" I'm sure you would have gotten nice, friendly responses from all of the gorillas. I know I would have. 
When you write a post and call someone a "cigar expert wannabe" because you have not experienced something, and basically say we are all a bunch of dipshits that say something exists because one person started a rumor, what kind of responses do you think you are going to get? This will be my last post on the topic. Coppertop is right, I probably would be better off talking to a brick wall.


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## The Rev (Feb 26, 2005)

What a great discussion. I have nothing to add except to say thanks for all the excellent info. I am going to order the Min Ron Nee book.


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## CigarTom (Aug 27, 2003)

Cigar Chic said:


> Min Ron Nee is from Hong Kong. He is one of the most knowledgeable habano connoisseurs. He collects, studies, and smokes every Habano available, from vintage cigars, to the machine-made. He has written a book entitled "An Illustrated Encyclopedia of Post-revolution Havana Cigars." He is considered and expert in the field of Habanos Cigars.
> 
> Min Ron Nee with the experience and knowledge gained from many other real connoisseurs, believe that cigars go through different stages and YES one of them is a sick period.
> 
> ...


Cigar Chic,

Thanks for your response. I am familiar with the Min Ron Nee book. I don't have a copy. You'd think an American publisher would try to get their hands on this book because it seems there would be good demand for it- especially if they brought the price down out of the stratosphere.

I agree totally with what you posted from the MRN book pertaining to sick periods. What MRN is describing is the natural aging process that is widely accepted. And some cigars may need it more than others because maybe they are a little green. What I disagree with is the hyperbole relating to PSD4 that is being espoused by some on this board. One of the posters who was most enraged by my audacity to express an opinion counter to the consensus opinion, describes the PSD4 as "popping in" and "popping out" of a sick period. MRN doesn't say anything about cigars being good, then 3O days later they stink, then 180 days later they're great again. MRN's quote parallels what I said- the changes in cigars happen gradually over time. Cigars do not go berserk in your humidor and start "popping" in and out of sick periods.

I was being playful with the Hop Sing/Min Ron Nee remark. Do you know who Hop Sing is?

Your comments have been graciously received. Thank you.


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## CigarTom (Aug 27, 2003)

Back in the 15th century, the consensus was that the world was flat. When Columbus talked about sailing "around" the world, he became the subject of much ridicule. The scientists who promoted the flat-world theory were threatened by Columbus' thoughts. How could Columbus think the world was round when the consensus was that the world was flat? They told him he was totally clueless, an idiot, and obviously didn't know anything about sailing if he didn't know the world was flat.

So if 99 people say the world is flat and one says it isn't, who is right? Sometimes its the 99 people who just relied on each other to form the consensus opinion.

Mark my words, 500 years from now when they're looking back in history and they read about the PSD4 "popping" theory described on this board, they're gonna be laughing. And I will be known as the Columbus of Club Stogie.


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## GOAT LOCKER (Aug 7, 2004)

CigarTom said:


> I agree totally with what you posted from the MRN book pertaining to sick periods.


Glad you finally came around. MRN's description is just what the people above have been trying to tell you! I guess in a round about way, this is your way of admitting you are wrong without admitting you are wrong...



CigarTom said:


> One of the posters who was most enraged by my audacity to express an opinion counter to the consensus opinion, describes the PSD4 as "popping in" and "popping out" of a sick period. MRN doesn't say anything about cigars being good, then 3O days later they stink, then 180 days later they're great again.


 :BS :BS :BS 
RcktS4 just asked a question of some of the FOGs here, inquiring if his PSD4s would come out of their sick period as fast as they seemed to go into it. RcktS4 is fairly new to Cuban cigars (as are you I take it) and is just looking for advice. A simple question, not claiming anything.



CigarTom said:


> MRN's quote parallels what I said- the changes in cigars happen gradually over time. Cigars do not go berserk in your humidor and start "popping" in and out of sick periods.


Too bad there is a limit on emoticons, cause the BS one belongs here too. You claimed there was *no such thing as a "sick period", and that anyone who thought differently was a "wannabe cigar expert" or "duped". * The "Cigars ... going berserk in your humidor and ... "popping" in and out of sick periods" is a strawman you built from RcktS4's question, period.

Here's the post, in it's entirety, where you claim the "sick period" is a myth.



CigarTom said:


> *I don't buy any of this stuff about sick periods. The "sick period" is a demonstration of human nature and not something physical that occurs in cigars as far as I am concerned. One person posts some crap, then someone agrees with it, and before you know it, everywhere you go they're talking about how the PSD4's go through this "sick period."*
> 
> You're telling me that a cigar company takes some good tobacco, makes a cigar out of it, it tastes good for a while, then it goes through changes which make it taste bad, then it tastes good again? I say bull dinky. Where is snopes.com when you need them?
> 
> ...


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## RcktS4 (Jan 13, 2005)

CigarTom said:


> I agree totally with what you posted from the MRN book pertaining to sick periods. What MRN is describing is the natural aging process that is widely accepted. And some cigars may need it more than others because maybe they are a little green. What I disagree with is the hyperbole relating to PSD4 that is being espoused by some on this board. One of the posters who was most enraged by my audacity to express an opinion counter to the consensus opinion, describes the PSD4 as "popping in" and "popping out" of a sick period. MRN doesn't say anything about cigars being good, then 3O days later they stink, then 180 days later they're great again. MRN's quote parallels what I said- the changes in cigars happen gradually over time. Cigars do not go berserk in your humidor and start "popping" in and out of sick periods.


Alright Tom,

Let me clarify a bit for you here. What offended me was in no way whatsoever your 'audacity' at having a contrary opinion. I find absolutely nothing in that offensive. Your opinion is completely your business, and I am certainly not one to be upset at anyone else's 'audacity' in nearly any circumstance.

What I found annoying to the core of my being was your tone. You were not voicing a minority opinion, you were presenting yourself as some sort of working class hero exposing the emperor as naked. And to do this, you insult the 'expert wannabes' as you so graciously refer to them. (I assume you were not referring to me - I am in no way an expert, nor do I have the funds, the time, or the patience to become an expert on havanas.)

My initial post on here was the following observation: I had a box of cigars that tasted wonderful until last week - when I smoked 2 that were both dramtically different. Oddly enough, this directly conincided with what many people had remarked about this particular cigar, calling it a 'sick period'. Hence the title of the thread: NOW I understand what you guys are talking about. Further, it happened in a very rapid - within a five day period of time - fashion - thus I used the term 'pop'. Please forgive me for my transgressions, but allow me the dignity of my own experience. You did not experience it - that's fine. But is it really necessary that because you haven't experienced it, it is 'the emperor's new clothes'? And do you need to be so aggressive in your espousal?

Your first post was, in my reading, basically saying: "you are an idiot. This doesn't happen. You are joining the endless procession of sheep that parrot what they hear on internet chat boards."

Now it may be fair to say that I did not give you much benefit of the doubt, but that is because I have seen your past posts. They fall very mcuh into the same pattern. If you meant something else, please explain it to me, because I find it impossible to read it as anything but insulting.

My response to this is that, once again, you have contributed nothing of use to the conversation, you have merely spouted your contrary opinion in a venemous way. I am still very much of the opinion that you take a perverse pleasure out of getting people riled up through espousing contrarian viewpoints.

I will now apologize for my harsh comments toward you, but to be honest, I will make them again if you start in with your holier than thou preaching about yourself as columbus and the rest of us as lemmings. It just isn't helpful.

Peace,

Raney


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

Raney,
What you are describing with your D4's is very similar to what I experienced. I've only had this happen 3 times where a cigar tasted good (not awsome), very strong and flavorfull and still showed some youthfull harshness, but showed serious promise, and then went bad. I pulled one out a short time later and they had a done a complete 180 turnaround. As I said before they were weak, one noted, and went to a mild or med at best strength level. I usually don't buy much under a year or two old. The other two boxes I've had this happen with were Monte #2's and Trindad Fundadores. One similarity is they all went sick quick and after about 3 months age. I'm not sure what M.R. is describing is the same sick period we are describing. It could be, but I did not smell any ammonia on the sick cigars. I do know exactly what he is talking about though. I had a cab of Boli petits last year that were 2 or 3 months old that had a distinct trace of ammonia smell when you held the feet of the 50 bundle to your nose. These cigars did taste kind of funky and young for sure, but they certainly were not weak like the sick D4's. It took a few months for the ammonia smell to dissapear and a few more months (1 year total) before they really started tasting good. Smell and taste are all chemical reactions, and I think the sickness we are experiencing may be from some other chemical change thats going on. Theres hundreds of chemicals other than ammonia that are given off when cigars age and maybe something causes them to taste flat and weak for a time. Most Cubans do lose some or most of their spiciness as they age, but what I'm talking about is much different than that. There was a good thread a while back about "what Cubans lose it when the age", that referred to the spiciness.
Take care, Fred.


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## CigarTom (Aug 27, 2003)

GOAT LOCKER said:


> Glad you finally came around. MRN's description is just what the people above have been trying to tell you! I guess in a round about way, this is your way of admitting you are wrong without admitting you are wrong...
> 
> :BS :BS :BS
> RcktS4 just asked a question of some of the FOGs here, inquiring if his PSD4s would come out of their sick period as fast as they seemed to go into it. RcktS4 is fairly new to Cuban cigars (as are you I take it) and is just looking for advice. A simple question, not claiming anything.
> ...


Goat Locker,

As Lascivious said (I'm paraphrasing), it depends on how you define the sick period. You have to read my posts in their entirety because I have always made it clear that I believe cigars age. I never said the aging of cigars is a myth. What I believe is a myth (for the umpteenth time) is that PSD4s or any other cigars go quickly from good to bad and back to good again. I believe the claims about this popping in and out behavior have become greatly exaggerated because that's what happens with folklore. Sometimes the power of persuasion has more impact on a person's senses than actual fact. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. The intense reaction to my contrarian position demonstrates what happens once someone questions the validity of a common belief. You either go along with what everyone else says or you're totally clueless, an idiot, you're full of shit, and you don't know anything.

I keep getting criticized for not contributing anything to the board. I think I made a valuable contribution to this subject. My experience has been that you can smoke your cigars anytime. I think you're doing a disservice to people if you make them believe their cigars are popping in and out of sick periods. If smokers are experiencing this type problem, I would blame it on storage problems, not the psychotic behavior of the cigar. From my perspective, I'm adding some balance to the subject. Some smokers vehemently swear their cigars change dramatically from day to day. I say that's a lot of baloney. Cigars change gradually over time. Min Ron Nee seems to support my viewpoint if that matters.

The other thing I keep hearing is how inexperienced I am with cigars. I'm not inclined to puff up my cigar credentials to defend my positions. From my perspective, the opinion of someone who has smoked 100 cigars counts as much as the opinion of someone who smoked 10,000 cigars. If the number of years and the number of cigars a person smokes makes their opinion count for more, then my opinions should carry a lot of weight. I started smoking cigars in the '50s. And, I've smoked a lot of them since then, including lots of Cubans. I have considerable cigar experience. But I don't think that makes me more right than someone else.

I never referred to any specific individual as a wannabe cigar expert. Anybody who took offense to that must have decided on their own that they belong in that category. Do you think there are any wannabe cigar experts out there (present company excluded please-actually I'm accused of never posting about cigars so I'm automatically excluded) or is that a non-existent variety of cigar smokers?


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## LastClick (Jan 2, 2005)

I just read this thread from page one to the last...very entertaining, thanks!! 

I would chime in, just don't want to beat a dead horse


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## One Lonely Smoker (Jan 21, 2005)

CigarTom said:


> Goat Locker,
> I believe the claims about this popping in and out behavior have become greatly exaggerated because that's what happens with folklore. Sometimes the power of persuasion has more impact on a person's senses than actual fact. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. The intense reaction to my contrarian position demonstrates what happens once someone questions the validity of a common belief. You either go along with what everyone else says or you're totally clueless, an idiot, you're full of shit, and you don't know anything.


Although I am a person that will always give you the courtesy of your opinion, I believe that you are wrong here. Taste popping in and out, back and forth I will grant you is likely false. But a cigar that is a joy one day and a flat, dry, one-note experience the next is not my imagination. This happens all the time. I will also give you that I do not like the term sick period at all. I find it completely off base. This is a chemical property manifesting itself and should be described more appropriately. I will give you another point...when I used to frequent a forum for Salt Water Reef Tank enthusiasts, it was feeding garlic to fish to prevent ich. It was the hottest, most divisive topic of all time. However, cigar smokers are much more civil, at least here. I left the reef boards because of all the attitude. Hell, I left CA because of the same thing. Your opinion is safe; it is just that, and no one can take it away from you or change your thinking. But I think this phenomenon is quite real. It should be clear that when a small minority of people think that something so ethereal does not exist, there will be some discounting of the contrary opinion. No one is going to die, no fish will be harmed by believing that this "period" exists. I am afraid that people will continue to spread this MYTH here, despite your opinion. And I have to agree with the herd. And if it doesn't exist, I will continue to act as if it does, because smoking a flat and tasteless cigar is STILL a waste of MY money. And your argument that it's a herd mentality with no factual basis is pretty weak. I would never question your experience, and I will NOW do you the courtesy of reading all of your arguments. But again....hooey.


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## coppertop (Dec 29, 2003)

CigarTom said:


> Cigar Chic,
> 
> Thanks for your response. I am familiar with the Min Ron Nee book. I don't have a copy. You'd think an American publisher would try to get their hands on this book because it seems there would be good demand for it- especially if they brought the price down out of the stratosphere.
> 
> ...


You must have misread what she wrote....here it is again



Cigar Chic said:


> "The sick period is the period when an ammoniac smell is still detectable in a newly manufactured cigar. The tobacco leaf is moistened before being rolled into a cigar. This invites accelerated fermentation which generates a lot of ammonia." He goes on to state: "The time period for the disappearance of the ammoniac smell is influenced by rate of fermentation, packaging and storage conditions."
> *For the majority of cigars (if handled properly) the sick period is over for 90% of the cigars within a few months, the rest are usually gone by the end of the first year, and practically ALL gone by the end of the second year.*


Now he specifically states that a cigar can enter a "sick period" within the first year of it's life. So your statement


CigarTom said:


> MRN doesn't say anything about cigars being good, then 3O days later they stink, then 180 days later they're great again.


 is a false statement. If a cigar can go into a sick period within its first year then wouldn't it be possible for them to one day be good and five days later they have entered there "sick period?"

I would think so....and I believe a lot of people would agree. But I also think the world is flat...and I don't care what facts you post to the contrary.


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## The Rev (Feb 26, 2005)

Well, the Min Ron Nee book isn't so easy to find. Any pointers? I assume we are talking a chunk of change, but if it is expensive now, I am guessing that it isn't going to get any cheaper. Once again, great talk! thanks...


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## IHT (Dec 27, 2003)

The Rev said:


> Well, the Min Ron Nee book isn't so easy to find. Any pointers? I assume we are talking a chunk of change, but if it is expensive now, I am guessing that it isn't going to get any cheaper. Once again, great talk! thanks...


one just went on ebay tonight... it closed for* $255*!!??


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## croatan (Mar 23, 2005)

LastClick said:


> I just read this thread from page one to the last...very entertaining, thanks!!


I did too, but it didn't take me too long. That ignore list is a pretty cool feature


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## Cigar Chic (Feb 19, 2004)

CigarTom said:


> I was being playful with the Hop Sing/Min Ron Nee remark. Do you know who Hop Sing is?


Hop Sing was a character on the show Bonanza. He was the cook/housekeeper for the Cartwrights.

I also understand "Hop Sing" to be a derogatory comment about Asian people. I had taken your comment as a slanderous comment towards Asian people since you also called Min Ron Nee, Min Ron Lee. If that was not your intent, than I am sorry for misunderstanding.


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## DonJefe (Dec 1, 2003)

Can't believe I read this entire thread! One thing I learned from this is that I have got to sit down and have a smoke or two with Raney some day.


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## Bruce5 (Jul 27, 2003)

I am glad to have finally read this post... First things first:
Coppertop - Glad you liked the Part du Conn #3. 
Fred - Very excited about our recent splitt. Glad you liked the Party Lonsdale.
CigarChic - While reading, I was waiting for someone to finally quote MRN.
.
CigarTom - You are entitled to your opinion. By what you write I can tell that you do have experience and knowledge of cigars. From what I read, people are relating this "sick period" to cuban cigars only. Not just the PSD4... but cuban cigars as a whole. I am unable to distinguish your experince with cuban cigars. Basically, you are stating that there is no "sick period" in your experience. I am not trying to be attacking in the least and implore discussion with you. Being said: How many years have you been smoking cuban cigars? How many Cuban cigars have you smoked? Answering these two questions will attest to your experience. For myself personally, I have smoked about 1500 cuban cigars in the past 3 years. Now I can say this for myself... I could not distinguish or understand what the sick period was until I had smoked over 500 cubans cigars. This similarity to myself is evidenced by many newbys asking about the "sick period" as they do not know what it is or could distinguish it. 
.
I am proposing two things to you, both I beleive are very fair.
1) As you give some creedence to Min Ron Nee and have only seen a quote from his book typed by CigarChic... I will photo-copy and mail to you his entire section on cigar aging where he mentions the "sick period", as well as a "2nd and 3rd vaccuum" period. I am only asking you to be open to reading it.
2) It might take me a little doing... but let's say I could send you 3 of the same cigar. For example 3 Trinidad Fundadores of the following age: 4 months old, 1 year old and 6 years old. It is my impression that this particular cigar does what you think is impossible...changes directions in strength or flavor more than one time. What I am saying is that when these are young they are alive and punchy. They then go flat for a period of time and then the strength and flavor returns with great splendor. 
.
Will you please answer my two questions on your cuban smoking experince and would you be willing to agree to my two proposals. As far as the cigars, we could decide on which one specifically and I would ask the fair price for the cigars. .... Tom, can you just open your mind a tiny little bit.... All I ask.

.


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

Just wanted to clarify I couple comments I made. Tom says repeatedly that cigars do not "pop in and out" of a sick period, but acknowledges that there is a sick period now. It's contrary to what he originally said as Goat Locker pointed out, but I will give him the benefit of the doubt that what he meant to say is the "sick period is a slow process like aging itself." I have never read M.R.N's book. I'm sure I would enjoy it. Smoking, aging, and sharing Cuban cigars with good friends is a passion for me. What I said was "cigars go into this sick period very quickly." I also stated that it takes a year or 2 sometimes to come around. This is exatly what M.R.N. states. He never mentions how long it takes to come on. I have never had it happen as quickly as Raneys, but that does not mean it can't happen in a matter of days. What I mean is, I keep 20 or so boxes of Cubans around usually. If I have a box that is young like the D4's were I will pull a cigar out every month or so to see how they are coming along. All 3 times I have experienced this, a month or two had gone by when the cigars had totally changed. I waited several months and got impatient with the D4's and sold them to clear out some humi space. MrC. took them off my hands and maybe he can tell us whether they came around or not yet. So to sum up, I have never claimed they pop in and out of a sick period. They do however seem to pop into this period quickly. I know I said I was done on the subject, but I wanted to be clear on what I believe and said.
Bruce, Very good comments and sounds like a very good idea or experiment.


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## Bruce5 (Jul 27, 2003)

Fred,
I noticed CigarTom has no more RG,
I am unsure if he is still a member here at CS.... Hope he is.
That would mean I typed for 30 minutes into the wind.
However, should a similar situation come up again
I now have a plan on how to attempt to see if someone
would give me a shot.


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## Da Klugs (Jan 8, 2005)

Bruce5 said:


> Fred,
> I noticed CigarTom has no more RG,
> I am unsure if he is still a member here at CS.... Hope he is.
> That would mean I typed for 30 minutes into the wind.
> ...


If you need a stand in for the demonstration I volunteer. I'm just at the 500 cubans smoked level now.


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## Papa Herf (Feb 27, 2005)

I just read the entire thread. Extremely informative and enlightening. However, several obvious questions seem to have gone unanswered.

First, why is how quickly Cuban cigars go in and out of this "sick period" relevant or important? If it is generally accepted as fact that most Cubans follow this aging curve, and if we acknowledge that fact, why does it matter how quickly this happens? Is it not sufficently protective of our investments to recognize that this does occur, and then to make the necessary allowances for the phenomenon?

Second, CigarTom, if the aging process is just that - a process, and if the "sick period," for lack of a better term, is a function of that process, then why could entrance into and exit from the "sick period" happen more quickly in some cigars and slower in others? Is your opinion that this can't happen quickly the result of your experience? Or is there some scientific reason behind that opinion? 

BTW, I haven't seen any comments on whether nonCuban cigars experience this same "sick period." Does this occur? If not, why? Someone school me.

Back to your regularly scheduled programming.


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

Papa Herf said:


> I just read the entire thread. Extremely informative and enlightening. However, several obvious questions seem to have gone unanswered.
> 
> First, why is how quickly Cuban cigars go in and out of this "sick period" relevant or important? If it is generally accepted as fact that most Cubans follow this aging curve, and if we acknowledge that fact, why does it matter how quickly this happens? Is it not sufficently protective of our investments to recognize that this does occur, and then to make the necessary allowances for the phenomenon?
> 
> ...


Very good questions. How quickly they become sick is very relevant if you have a box of D4's that are very fresh, say a month or 2 old. Since they seem to go into this period quickly, you probably should either smoke the box in a month or 2, or plan on aging them a while. Also could help you make a decision on a purchase. Say a lot of folks are saying the Monte #2 is flat from 3-6months, you may want to purchase a box that has over 6 months age if you don't have the space or patience to age them. Everyones tastes are different, but I don't like the D4's unless they are fresh or have 3-5 years age. I know some of the gorillas that have a lot of experience aging cigars say after 5 years they hit a state where they are awsome. Your other question about why some cigars go into this period quicker than others, or why some seem to have almost no sick period, is a great one also. I have no idea for sure, but like I said earlier, I believe it has to do with how long the tobacco sat around before being rolled. Obviosly with the D4's and Monte #2's being a couple of the most popular cigars, they are always struggling to keep up with production and the tobacco is fresher when we get them. Even though a box of say something less popular may have the same date code as a box of D4's, the tobacco may be quite a bit more mature.
I have on idea if domestics experience this or not. I'm guessing not since I have never heard of it before, but unlike Tom I won't say they don't just because I have not experienced it myself. I pretty much got hooked on Cubans quickly and smoked only them for the most part right away.


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## One Lonely Smoker (Jan 21, 2005)

CigarTom said:


> Back in the 15th century, the consensus was that the world was flat. When Columbus talked about sailing "around" the world, he became the subject of much ridicule.


 Stop insulting Columbus by lining up with him. Don't put your weak and antagonistic crusade up against someone legitimate.


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## Nely (Nov 11, 2004)

Very informative thread! 
Papa Herf, in my humble experience with cigars, I have noticed that noncubans go through something similar to the sick period that cubans go through. Noncubans also age and mature and in the process they expell some ammonia- like smell that's not very pleasant. I actually smoked a few sticks that were going through that period from my tupperdor and they tasted very bitter/harsh. I smoked another one a couple of days ago(after a good 6 months rest) and boy has that cigar smoothed out. The ammoniac smell is barely detectable now when I open the tupperdor.
So yes, I do believe that noncubans can go through a similar process.


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## Brandon (Dec 11, 1997)

I started reading this thread, but got sick and tired of it after several posts. BS like this is why most all of the earliest members do not participate here anymore. It seems like hardly anyone can have a discussion these days w/o letting their ego and pride get in the way.


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

Brandon said:


> I started reading this thread, but got sick and tired of it after several posts. BS like this is why most all of the earliest members do not participate here anymore. It seems like hardly anyone can have a discussion these days w/o letting their ego and pride get in the way.


Well I agree this post turned to b.s. after Tom spouted his nonsense, but I actually thought it was pretty interesting thread until then. I like to hear other peoples perception and experiences with the sick period and the D4's in particular. It just seems so wierd how they go south so quick. I don't see ego or pride problems here. What I see is a guy (CigarTom) who needs attention, starting another rediculous and inciteful post and getting just that. I won't allow him the satisfaction next time.


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## Bruce (Dec 31, 1999)

Interesting opinion CigarTom has. I guess I'm just another lemming when it comes to the general consences on ageing/sick period.


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## Brandon (Dec 11, 1997)

Right, I was pretty much referring to CigarTom. It just seems like he has to be correct, no matter what comes out of his mouth. 

It's better to ignore such folks. They will often go away if they are not heard.

I also agree that cigars do experience sick periods.


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## RcktS4 (Jan 13, 2005)

Thanks to all the more experienced guys who chimed in - I got a lot of good information here.

I smoked another PSD4 from my box over the weekend. i realize this was essentially a waste of a cigar, but I wanted to confirm my feelings about the box in light of some of what I read here. 

Perhaps I overstated the problem initially... it isn't that the cigars went from amazing to complete crap, but they went from being probably my favorite overall smoke to date to being just adequate (at best). It still tastes like a cigar, and it still tastes like a cuban, but it was nothing I could ever describe as 'complex' - it was very one dimensional. Completely disappointing especially when compared to what they were a few weeks ago. 

The lower half of this box is now relegated to the back of the fridgeador for at least 6 months or so. 

Thanks again to everyone who furthered my education a bit here. THIS is why I joinced CS, and why I stick around.


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## JFizzle (Jul 17, 2003)

Gosh this place got weird. Just smoke a cigar and relax.


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## The Rev (Feb 26, 2005)

In post #101 I finally got some perspective on this discussion. Thanks. I was wondering to what extent the sick period really affects the taste and that cleared it up. Thanks for hangin in on this thread.


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## coppertop (Dec 29, 2003)

JFizzle said:


> Gosh this place got weird. Just smoke a cigar and relax.


Why because 1 individual compares himself with Christopher Columbus? 

It was a good conversation till he descibed us as wannabe cigar experts (which I never cliamed to be) and lemmings. If thats weird, then I guess it did get weird.


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## One Lonely Smoker (Jan 21, 2005)

You know, even after ALL of it, the fact or question still remains. My only box of PSD4 is AGO04 and I KNOW I am not going to smoke one tonight. But of course, which cigar is calling me? You guessed it. On a good note, I had a SCO SEP01 Lusitania last night. I am down to the bottom layer on this box now. It was really very good. I smoked the spongiest one in the box, and I got what I deserved in the last third, but the first 2/3 was phenomenal. The true Partagas flavor and twang has only now begun to really break out on these. Before they were strong and a little tannic with not much complexity to reccommend them. It was rich and creamy with twang, pepper and coffee and a subtle wine note that came and went. I think I will hold back 6 in a very deep box and get the other 6 into this year's rotation.

Now the people who have lots of experience in holding onto PSD4 through to the 4-5 year mark, and you now who you are, Would you say that they get weak, or smooth and rich? What would you say is the benefit of holding, other than you have missed their spicy youth anyway, and missed the "sick period" and all you can hope for is what little remains. 
Have I mis-characterized it?


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## One Lonely Smoker (Jan 21, 2005)

I think that when this period is the subject on the table, we have to realize that we cannot know everything. I am sure for some who are just now beginning to enjoy havana cigars, there is a tendency to want to do it right, to know all there is to know to prevent a costly mistake. In everything from proper storage to which brands are best for a certain taste, there is so much that is widely available to learn. And it is a very good thing to read all you can find, ask anyone who knows, and try lots of different cigars to find your taste. But it is perfectly OK not to know something, and it is entirely possible that there is something yet unknown to all. It is intimidating to embark on a journey where the cards are stacked against you. It was the conventional wisdom of the ages that cuban cigars need to sit a while before consumption. Oh great, something that costs money now for no benefit now. I have to spend now to enjoy later. But you dealt with it and moved on. And when you went out to the river with a few great sticks and found that half of the cigars you brought wouldn't draw and your weekend was ruined, you dealt with it, learned to bring extras and moved on, lol. And it is a shame that they are expensive and hard to get for some. It is a quirk that many havanas also need to be stored differently than all of your previous experience has taught. But when it comes to this so-called sick-period, I think all anyone can do is to smoke their cigars and enjoy them, and be mindful that when something doesn't taste right, don't follow up one cigar with another to make sure you aren't crazy. Put them away and try again in 3-6 months. It should be clear that no question you can ask is going to save you a bad experience every time. If you can't learn everything, at least learn enough to save yourself money and heartache. lol. And that's my 75 cents


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## par (May 22, 2005)

I don't know as much about cigars as i know about wine. Been dabbling into wine making, been judging wine and i've visited most of the commerical wine making regions in the world to educate myself. One day i may even become a full time grape farmer...

While i don't profess to have studied the chemistry behind the suggested ammonia(?) related flavour of young cigars (of the cuban type) there seems to be an analogy to the wine industry. When bottling wine from the barrell into the bottle the wine needs to rest for a fairly significant amount of time in order to overcome what the industry calls "bottle shock" or "bottle sickness". It's basically a smell of sulfur dioxide believed to be caused by heavy agitation of the components in the wine. After a few weeks of rest this is dissolved back into the wine (some people theorize that it's micro sedimentation) and the smell goes away. 

It's heavily debated if bottle sickness can occur for wines as a result of transportation or if it only occurs during bottling. I must say that i've had a hard time identifying a wine as being sick from transportation when i've transported the bottle properly (ok, there is much more to this than i wrote here, but this is the basics).

Anyway, i thought the comparison and parallel to the phenomena described is interesting. Since the cigar leaves undergoes fermentation perhaps there is such a thing as allowing the stick to rest in order to get all the components of the cigar to properly blend and since ammonia (or is it some form of dioxide since there is fermentation involved?) is detected by smell perhaps this is the most volatile element that needs to be aged out?

my few cents (i hope i make sense).
-Par

oh, and for the record -i'm still a newbie


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

par said:


> I don't know as much about cigars as i know about wine. Been dabbling into wine making, been judging wine and i've visited most of the commerical wine making regions in the world to educate myself. One day i may even become a full time grape farmer...
> 
> While i don't profess to have studied the chemistry behind the suggested ammonia(?) related flavour of young cigars (of the cuban type) there seems to be an analogy to the wine industry. When bottling wine from the barrell into the bottle the wine needs to rest for a fairly significant amount of time in order to overcome what the industry calls "bottle shock" or "bottle sickness". It's basically a smell of sulfur dioxide believed to be caused by heavy agitation of the components in the wine. After a few weeks of rest this is dissolved back into the wine (some people theorize that it's micro sedimentation) and the smell goes away.
> 
> ...


Par,
Your comments are right on. I'm into wine also. I'm not nearly as knowledgable as you but the similarities with cigars are definately there.


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

One Lonely Smoker said:


> You know, even after ALL of it, the fact or question still remains. My only box of PSD4 is AGO04 and I KNOW I am not going to smoke one tonight. But of course, which cigar is calling me? You guessed it. On a good note, I had a SCO SEP01 Lusitania last night. I am down to the bottom layer on this box now. It was really very good. I smoked the spongiest one in the box, and I got what I deserved in the last third, but the first 2/3 was phenomenal. The true Partagas flavor and twang has only now begun to really break out on these. Before they were strong and a little tannic with not much complexity to reccommend them. It was rich and creamy with twang, pepper and coffee and a subtle wine note that came and went. I think I will hold back 6 in a very deep box and get the other 6 into this year's rotation.
> 
> Now the people who have lots of experience in holding onto PSD4 through to the 4-5 year mark, and you now who you are, Would you say that they get weak, or smooth and rich? What would you say is the benefit of holding, other than you have missed their spicy youth anyway, and missed the "sick period" and all you can hope for is what little remains.
> Have I mis-characterized it?


Shoot Bruce a p.m. He posted a few posts earlier. He has had experience with aging the D4's, and says they really come on at 5 years. The oldest one I had was about 4 years. It did not have much, if any spice, but I would say it was very earthy and had become pretty sweet. It was a good med-med full in body. The D4's were closer to full I think prior to 95. The have a little youthful twang and some rough notes, but I still prefer these fresh and spicy.


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## altbier (Feb 20, 2005)

I agree with par. I have been making wine for almost 10 years now.

I too was wondering if there is a cigar shock like bottle shock of wine.

Stretching and rolling the leaves has got to break open the plant cells and release into the cigar what was stored in the cells.

Not to get technical, but there are chemicals that when released oxydize that may cause off flavors. So maybe time down changes this. And when they roll a cigar, they spray water on it so this may bring chemicals back?

I am just a photographer, but it makes sense to me.

cheers!


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## One Lonely Smoker (Jan 21, 2005)

Fredster said:


> It did not have much, if any spice, but I would say it was very earthy and had become pretty sweet. It was a good med-med full in body.


This is pretty much what I like in a cigar. So I guess aging is the way to go for me. But the screwy thing is that naturally, as i get further and further into havanas, I am liking them, or at least tolerating them fuller and younger. So it is a toss up. I had some 04 Coronas Juniors last month and the bittersweet, moist tang of youth was pretty mouth-watering. I like them dry and aged, but they were making a pretty good argument. I may get two aging boxes of D4 and just smoke this box all up this year to make sure I get the profile down so I can make a decision whether or not I like the youth in these. Of all the "must smoke vitolas" I think this is still a mystery cigar to me.


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## par (May 22, 2005)

one minor thing.... I think i came off a bit snobbish in my 'wine' post. I'm a simple guy, and i like wine the same way as i like cigars -not so pretentious. I don't profess to being able to say that this wine was grown on the shade side of the glass mountain in napa and frankly i don't really care as long as it tastes good


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## RcktS4 (Jan 13, 2005)

par said:


> one minor thing.... I think i came off a bit snobbish in my 'wine' post. I'm a simple guy, and i like wine the same way as i like cigars -not so pretentious. I don't profess to being able to say that this wine was grown on the shade side of the glass mountain in napa and frankly i don't really care as long as it tastes good


didn't come off snobbish at all.


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