# High School Spurs Furor With Cuba Trip



## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

April 16, 2007 -- A group of Manhattan public high-school students and a history teacher with a soft spot for Cuba flouted federal travel restrictions by taking a spring-break field trip to the communist nation - and now face up to $65,000 apiece in fines, The Post has learned.

The lesson in socializing and socialism was given to about a dozen students from the selective Beacon School on the Upper West Side, which for years has organized extravagant overseas trips with complementary semester-long classes.

Some past destinations include France, Spain, South Africa, Venezuela, Mexico and, according to the school Web site, Cuba in 2004 and 2005.

The principal, Ruth Lacey, insisted she did not approve the April 1-10 jaunt, in which students and teachers said the group was briefly detained on their return by American customs officials in The Bahamas and now faces fines.

In a telephone interview, Lacey initially claimed to have no knowledge of the trip but later recalled having denied approval for it. She said the teacher, Nathan Turner, then took it upon himself to arrange the excursion.

Turner, 35, a popular teacher whose classroom walls, students said, are adorned with posters of Cuban dictator Fidel Castro and Marxist revolutionary Che Guevara, declined to comment.

"I don't know anything about the trip because it wasn't school-sponsored. I only care about the trips that go through the school," Lacey said. "This, to me, would be an outrage if it happened."

But the trip was advertised on the school's Web site in the fall. And a list of 30 students selected in November to take the journey and to attend preparation classes for it could be found on its Web site last week.

It was not clear how many students actually went, though sources said it was about a dozen.

Asked whether the previous trips to Cuba had been approved, Lacey said they had, explaining, "At the time, I think the climate in the country was different."

City Department of Education spokesman David Cantor said the agency denied the school permission to run the trip and that, after The Post's inquiries, had asked city investigators to look into how the excursion and any previous jaunts got off the ground.

"This trip should not have happened," Cantor said.

Some parents of students who made the journey said they knew it was not sanctioned by the school, with some recalling receiving a letter from Beacon describing the excursion as "an independent trip."

The Rev. Earl Kooperkamp, pastor at St. Mary's Episcopal Church in Harlem, said he was unclear on the travel restrictions to Cuba but allowed his son to go because he and his wife felt the experience would be educational.

He added that he was unaware that the students got into hot water at customs but that he was not overly concerned with the consequences.

"It concerns me more that we have a blockade on Cuba that's lasted more than 40 years," Kooperkamp said.

Molly Millerwise, spokeswoman for the Treasury Department's Office of Foreign Assets Controls, which enforces economic sanctions and grants licenses for travel to Cuba, would neither confirm nor deny that students and the teacher were detained.

But she said educational travel licenses are granted only to college and graduate-school students who plan trips no shorter than 10 weeks long, and that individuals violating the sanctions face penalties ranging from a warning to $65,000 in fines.

Traveling to Cuba has been difficult for Americans since 1962, but tighter restrictions adopted in 2003 made visits by high-school students with no family on the island near impossible, travel agents say.

"I don't see a legal way for high-school kids to go [to Cuba] right now, given what the restrictions say," said Malia Everette, travel director for Global Exchange, a San Francisco-based company that arranges professional and educational tours to Cuba and worked with Beacon on its Venezuela trip in 2006.

"I'm turning away undergraduates as well as high-school students left and right," she said. "It's not the time or place right now."

From nypost.com
[email protected]


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## newcigarz (Feb 11, 2007)

Interesting story! :tu


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## replicant_argent (May 13, 2006)

Isn't it amazing how such trips like this are conceived. I look at the student trips to study cultures and societies, and they are almost all someplace I would pay to go on vacation. I find it strange that these trips are almost never to places that have fascinating cultures, yet are in the parts of the world that aren't near beautiful beaches.
Just a little cynical barbel that raises its ugly sharp tip in my craw when I see things like this.


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## carni (Jan 18, 2007)

I love the quote by the Rev. about his greater concern for the 40 yr. long embargo. I know this issue raises alot of opinions but my only problem is why have we not placed an embargo against china, japan, russia, germany, italy, afganastan, iraq, and iran who all have comitted great harm to our country than the small island of cuba.


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## Mr. White (Dec 4, 2004)

Good for them, the Embargo is retarded. How we can trade with China, but have an Embargo against Cuba, is beyond me.


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## Ivory Tower (Nov 18, 2005)

... and the principal didn't know anything about it... riiiight. 


Anyways, go ahead a fine them $65,000 each. That may get the ball rolling on lowering the restrictions.


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## ghostrider (Oct 30, 2005)

The biggest question I did not see answered is how they managed a trip to Cuba in the first place. I'm pretty sure they never received a visa.


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## iceman95 (Jan 1, 2007)

Embargo or no, sounds like that school is raising a crop of good little libs. :ss


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## Ivory Tower (Nov 18, 2005)

ghostrider said:


> The biggest question I did not see answered is how they managed a trip to Cuba in the first place. I'm pretty sure they never received a visa.


Getting there isn't that hard or so I've read. It's getting back where they get you.


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

Those students were going onto enemy lands, and may have even been trading with enemies. The Bush regime should demand stiff fines and prison sentences for each student, principal and teacher. Those students are traitors and deserve to be sent to prison... What those commie lovers/terrorist supporters did was much worse than Imus...

That was to apease the anti-Castro crowd, lol...


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## Made in Dade (Aug 5, 2006)

iceman95 said:


> Embargo or no, sounds like that school is raising a crop of good little libs. :ss


Ain't that the truth. :tu


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## Made in Dade (Aug 5, 2006)

mosesbotbol said:


> Those students were going onto enemy lands, and may have even been trading with enemies. The Bush regime should demand stiff fines and prison sentences for each student, principal and teacher. Those students are traitors and deserve to be sent to prison... What those commie lovers/terrorist supporters did was much worse than Imus...
> 
> That was to apease the anti-Castro crowd, lol...


Thank You very much. lol...:tu


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

ghostrider said:


> The biggest question I did not see answered is how they managed a trip to Cuba in the first place. I'm pretty sure they never received a visa.


Probably through Cancun, BVI.


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## MoTheMan (May 24, 2003)

mosesbotbol said:


> Probably through Cancun, BVI.


According to the post, they went through the Bahamas.

If you're going to Cuba, they'll sometimes offer to give you the visa right there at the airport in Havana upon your arrival.

Hmm! Let's see. If you'er going to go to Cuba you can . . . take a charter from NYC or Miami if they're still allowing you to visit family.
Other safer take-off points include Cancun, Mexico City, Grand Cayman, Jamaica, and most European cities. BUT definately NOT THE BAHAMAS!! Becasue of all the past drug running that's gone through the Bahamas, there's a lot more scrutiny going on there. Much of the drug running coming from Mexico comes directly through the border and less through air travel.

Just my :2 , but I'm not advocating that you break the law. :cb


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## Boston_Dude05 (Oct 10, 2006)

Crazy trip.


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## Dgar (Sep 12, 2006)

I just hope the Kids got to enjoy a few nice cigars....


Thanks JFK:tg


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## ghostrider (Oct 30, 2005)

Generally for any school trips like this, all students must have permission from their parents, in writing prior to leaving. Makes you wonder:

a) how many parents had no clue where they were going, or that it was illegal
b) how many parents knew it was illegal and still signed off on it.

Either way, sad commentary on our society.


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## Mr. White (Dec 4, 2004)

iceman95 said:


> Embargo or no, sounds like that school is raising a crop of good little libs. :ss


I'm all for it. The more people who are properly educated about Cuba/China, etc. Is more people who will understand exactly how stupid the Embargo is. I'll tell you something else too, when that Embargo is lifted there's going to be a lot of collectors not only buying cigars, but buying those old classic/antique cars to restore too. hehehe.


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## baglorious (Jan 26, 2007)

Dgar said:


> I just hope the Kids got to enjoy a few nice cigars....
> 
> Thanks JFK:tg


I'm sure the most certainly DID NOT!!! I mean, they were probably under eighteen... so, whether or not smoking is allowed in Cuba for minors, it clearly isn't in NY. And I'm certain their chaperone/teachers would respect the laws of NY while in charge of the kids, right? I mean, you have to set a good example for your students by... um, you know, uhhh... obeying the laws and stuff?


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## dstaccone (Oct 19, 2006)

baglorious said:


> I'm sure the most certainly DID NOT!!! I mean, they were probably under eighteen... so, whether or not smoking is allowed in Cuba for minors, it clearly isn't in NY. And I'm certain their chaperone/teachers would respect the laws of NY while in charge of the kids, right? I mean, you have to set a good example for your students by... um, you know, uhhh... obeying the laws and stuff?


:r Yea laws are important and stuff. I hope they didn't let those 16 and 17 year olds smoke in *Cuba*. That would be horrible. I don't think they cared too much about the laws of NY or in fact the US

I didn't know about the 10 week loophole for college students. Maybe next year since I will be a senior in college I can figure out a way to go there an smok...er study for 10 weeks. I think that would be highly beneficial to my education.


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## [OT] Loki (May 24, 2006)

But she said educational travel licenses are granted only to college and graduate-school students who plan trips no shorter than 10 weeks long.



Oh I need to take advantage of this


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## Moosie (Apr 25, 2005)

Let me see. As far as I know, the only country boycotting Cuba is the United States. Does this mean that all the problems in Cuba are the fault of the United States government? Boycott has been in force since 1962. Can’t Cuba do business with all other foreign governments? Could it be the Communist government is to blame or is it our fault?:2 :2


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## MeNimbus (Dec 18, 2006)

I would sign up to go to Cuba in a heartbeat. Club Stogie trip? :ss


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## drdice (Sep 11, 2006)

What a bunch of Bull $hit! Big deal...so they visited a foreign country which happens to have a communistic regime. I can't believe they are imposing a ridiculous fine like that.

If they were smart they would have booked a trip to visit Toronto, Ontario Canada. While in Toronto, they just happened to catch a flight to Varadero or Habana. 

Don't get me wrong...I love the U.S.A. I'm proud to be Canadian but I still think the U.S.A is the greatest country on the planet.....BUT, I still don't quite comprehend how it's WRONG to visit Cuba yet it's OK to purchase a hand-gun or some sort of military style rifle with minimal background checks.


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## dstaccone (Oct 19, 2006)

MeNimbus said:


> I would sign up to go to Cuba in a heartbeat. Club Stogie trip? :ss


:r Field trip sounds good, I'll get my parental consent form signed. :tu


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## Fumioso (Apr 28, 2006)

MeNimbus said:


> I would sign up to go to Cuba in a heartbeat. Club Stogie trip? :ss


The governor of Idaho and a small entourage of 36 people (the Idaho "trade delegation") are traveling to Cuba to explore the possibility of *expanding trade* with the "enemy." Potatoes for cash is evidently not an illegal transaction.



> "Let's go down to Havana and see what we can come back with," said John Hanian, press secretary for Otter, who has been on three previous trade missions to Cuba.


Do we have any farmers in the jungle?

http://www.agweekly.com/articles/2007/04/15/news/ag_news/news10.txt


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## papajohn67 (May 25, 2006)

dstaccone said:


> :r Field trip sounds good, I'll get my parental consent form signed. :tu


I took several "field trips" to Vietnam as a youth and strange as it seems today as an old man I am welcome to go back again and visit not only by them but as well by my own Government. I guess the falling domino's in the domino theory proved wrong since most still seem to be standing. My how things changed. Once my/our enemy and now just another source for cheap labor to crank-out clothing and baseball caps as well as provide future beachside resorts. I guess it's just how you pick your "enemy" + how long you want to remain stubborn about it.

How about we let both sides (us & them) in the Cuba debate sort it out in the nude, stark naked. By the time they all stopped laughing perhaps both sides could come to their senses.


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## awesome1 (Dec 13, 2006)

Ivory Tower said:


> Getting there isn't that hard or so I've read. It's getting back where they get you.


Very true.. I have been 7 times in the last 3 years but was caught twice last year in both May and June.. Once driving back from Canada the other from the Bahamas. 
Bahama immigrations wont stamp your passport if you ask them not to. Just be sure not to have anything on your person from Cuba. Mail your cigars back and any other items you may have from Cuba. Remove all your stickers from your previous flight to Cuba and any papers or reciepts that may say Cuba on them.. 
The normal fine for the first offense is 7500.00 and is usually negotiated down to 10% or less of that.. 
Ofac knows about all of my visits but thus far I have recieved only 1 fine for 8300.00 and that was when I came in from Canada. My Bahamas trip has, thus far not been fined.

As for people in this country becoming aware of the embargo... Everyone I talk to about it doesnt even know that we cant travel there legally.. Its really amazing how little people know in this country.. and it is a disgrace that the people in this country that love freedom dont pay any attention to the many ways we are losing it everyday!!!!


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## Little Giant (Jan 7, 2007)

Right on!!!:tu


iceman95 said:


> Embargo or no, sounds like that school is raising a crop of good little libs. :ss


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## Little Giant (Jan 7, 2007)

Regardless of how we feel. as individuals, about the embargo, the embargo is still in effect and there is a law against unapproved travel to Cuba.

This would be a he!! of a country if we all decided to break any law that we didn't agree with. that's my:2


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## dstaccone (Oct 19, 2006)

Little Giant said:


> Regardless of how we feel. as individuals, about the embargo, the embargo is still in effect and there is a law against unapproved travel to Cuba.
> 
> This would be a he!! of a country if we all decided to break any law that we didn't agree with. that's my:2


I agree with you that we can't break any law we feel like, unless that law infringes on our rights. I don't think the embargo violates any of my rights, but if I can find away around it and it is viable I may take advantage of my student status. 

However, I think Americans are standing by allowing a lot of our freedoms to be taken away and not reacting. Instead of following all the laws, we need to react to the ridiculous laws that infringe upon our rights. Sorry for the rant it wasn't really meant to be, it is too late I need sleep.


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## awesome1 (Dec 13, 2006)

Little Giant said:


> Regardless of how we feel. as individuals, about the embargo, the embargo is still in effect and there is a law against unapproved travel to Cuba.
> 
> This would be a he!! of a country if we all decided to break any law that we didn't agree with. that's my:2


I agree to a certain extent. The supreme court has already ruled that a mans right to travel is a basic right in his pursuit of "Life liberty and the persuit of happiness." 
If this embargo was against China or Russia or vietnam I could even understand it somewhat but because we do not have an embargo in place and the only reason we retain the embargo with Cuba is for political gains for the president and his brother, I have serious reservations about how legal it truly is.


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## jitzy (Jan 7, 2007)

i will say this working in NYC for the past 13 years going to college in NYC the teachers there teach a liberal lifestyle, while its fine if you are a liberal its not fine to force your views upon someone let them decide for themselves. i will gaurentee there was alot of anti government anti bush talk going on. as i said before if thats the way someone feels and they want to give their opinions to another adult great but to FORCE it on impresionable children is not right.


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## tiptone (Jul 30, 2006)

Little Giant said:


> Regardless of how we feel. as individuals, about the embargo, the embargo is still in effect and there is a law against unapproved travel to Cuba.
> 
> This would be a he!! of a country if we all decided to break any law that we didn't agree with. that's my:2


You do realize that breaking laws that we didn't agree with is why we're Americans and not British right?


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## carni (Jan 18, 2007)

tiptone said:


> You do realize that breaking laws that we didn't agree with is why we're Americans and not British right?


wow, preach it:ss we are made to be capitalist society with free trade. I see the purpose for the embargo in '62 but do not see the purpose now. hopefully in my lifetime i will sit where hemingway sat drinking a mojito with a cc.


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## dstaccone (Oct 19, 2006)

jitzy said:


> i will say this working in NYC for the past 13 years going to college in NYC the teachers there teach a liberal lifestyle, while its fine if you are a liberal its not fine to force your views upon someone let them decide for themselves. i will gaurentee there was alot of anti government anti bush talk going on. as i said before if thats the way someone feels and they want to give their opinions to another adult great but to FORCE it on impresionable children is not right.


:tpd: kids are way to impressionable. Even in college I see a lot of people my age strongly influenced by professor who express their opinion as fact. It is the one thing that really irks me about college professor, but then again I go to liberal arts school. I guess it is somewhat my fault.


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## Habanolover (Feb 22, 2006)

tiptone said:


> You do realize that breaking laws that we didn't agree with is why we're Americans and not British right?


 While I do agree with this to some extent it is still a double edged sword.
Most pedophiles feel that pedophilia should not be illegal. Does that make it ok to be one?
Should hate crimes be legal because some people think they should?
I know that these are extreme examples but the fact remains that illegal is just that.....illegal. People should not be excused from illegal activities just because they do not agree with the law.


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## tiptone (Jul 30, 2006)

madurolover said:


> While I do agree with this to some extent it is still a double edged sword.
> Most pedophiles feel that pedophilia should not be illegal. Does that make it ok to be one?
> Should hate crimes be legal because some people think they should?
> 
> I know that these are extreme examples but the fact remains that illegal is just that.....illegal. People should not be excused from illegal activities just because they do not agree with the law.


I think it's clear from those extreme examples that the only people who feel those crimes should be legal are those who are doing them. I'm talking about civil disobedience plain and simple, pedophilia and violent crimes don't belong in the same discussion.

The founding fathers broke laws, risking their lives, because they knew those laws to be unjust. Without some rational justification of why it is in place, I feel no need to follow any law. I was raised to know what was right and wrong, and that's the direction I follow, what some politician wrote on some piece of paper is secondary to that.

Oh, I apologize...let me step down off of my soap box now.


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## ResIpsa (Mar 8, 2006)

oh puleezze. People here want to be able to buy Cuban cigars without the fear of repercussion, therefore they want the embargo to end. It has nothing to do with "unjust" statutes, assuming the embargo is unjust in the first place. :2


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## pistol (Mar 23, 2006)

ResIpsa said:


> oh puleezze. People here want to be able to buy Cuban cigars without the fear of repercussion, therefore they want the embargo to end. It has nothing to do with "unjust" statutes, assuming the embargo is unjust in the first place. :2


I'm with Vic, give me a break... If you want to buy Cuban cigars, go ahead, be my guest, but don't start preaching about the unjust embargo and juxtaposing it to our founding fathers objecting to taxation without representation.


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## tiptone (Jul 30, 2006)

pistol said:


> I'm with Vic, give me a break... If you want to be Cuban cigars, go ahead, be my guest, but don't start preaching about the unjust embargo and juxtaposing it to our founding fathers objecting to taxation without representation.


You're doing all the juxtaposating around here. 

I wasn't talking about the embargo in particular. Nor do I think these kids in the article went down there to protest or to smoke Cuban cigars.

I was just responding to someone saying "You must follow all laws because they are laws.". I don't agree with that, period. I never intended to bring this specific matter of the Cuban trade embargo into it.


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## ResIpsa (Mar 8, 2006)

tiptone said:


> You're doing all the juxtaposating around here.
> 
> I wasn't talking about the embargo in particular. Nor do I think these kids in the article went down there to protest or to smoke Cuban cigars.
> 
> I was just responding to someone saying "You must follow all laws because they are laws.". I don't agree with that, period. I never intended to bring this specific matter of the Cuban trade embargo into it.


  ummm......you may not have noticed, but the embargo and it being violated is what this thread is about....:tu


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## pistol (Mar 23, 2006)

tiptone said:


> You're doing all the juxtaposating around here.
> 
> I wasn't talking about the embargo in particular. Nor do I think these kids in the article went down there to protest or to smoke Cuban cigars.
> 
> I was just responding to someone saying "You must follow all laws because they are laws.". I don't agree with that, period. I never intended to bring this specific matter of the Cuban trade embargo into it.


Isn't that why it's called a law? Last time I checked, we don't get to pick and choose the ones we follow... I'm not saying you have to follow all of them (just be prepared for the consequences if you don't); I don't care, but when you start referring to the embargo against Cuba, and talking about the virtues of breaking the law because our forefathers did it, I have to laugh a little bit...


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## tiptone (Jul 30, 2006)

ResIpsa said:


> ummm......you may not have noticed, but the embargo and it being violated is what this thread is about....:tu


Understood, but I was specifically responding to Little Giants comment and not the entire matter at hand. That's why I quoted him.



pistol said:


> Isn't that why it's called a law? Last time I checked, we don't get to pick and choose the ones we follow... I'm not saying you have to follow all of them; I don't care, but when you start referring to the embargo against Cuba, and talking about the virtues of breaking the law because our forefathers did it, I have to laugh a little bit...


Again *I* never referenced the embargo against Cuba, though that is the subject of the thread and I obviously should have clarified that better.


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

If we all followed the law without question, slavery would still be legal.


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## pistol (Mar 23, 2006)

mosesbotbol said:


> If we all followed the law without question, slavery would still be legal.


Huh? I was under the impression that Abraham Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation making slavery illegal during the Civil War. Civil disobediance with regards to slavery was a Confederate rallying point. Breaking the law had nothing to do with freeing the slaves...


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## Mr. White (Dec 4, 2004)

Little Giant said:


> Regardless of how we feel. as individuals, about the embargo, the embargo is still in effect and there is a law against unapproved travel to Cuba.
> 
> This would be a he!! of a country if we all decided to break any law that we didn't agree with. that's my:2


I have to disagree with you. Here in America, this is how we as citizens usually end up having to get laws changed, by breaking them.

It's one of the major reasons why interstates now have 70 MPH limits instead of 55 MPH limits. So many of us were breaking the law it was finally changed. In fact America was built by breaking British law.  Our society has the power to change any laws we want. They're our laws to change, and our laws to break. Too many people in this country seem to forget this (including the politicians) Our politicians only have power because American citizens give them that power. It's just a shame that most Americans have been snowed into believing that we have none by the politicians.

Prohibition is another fine example of Americans breaking a law that they felt was completely stupid. It's our power, all we have to do is stand up and use it.

The truth of the matter is that besides the politicians and the cigar smokers of America, most people have no idea there IS an embargo against Cuba. If everyone DID know, then I'm pretty sure most of them would be asking why the Embargo exists for Cuba and not for China. And when they realized it was simply because of a pissing match between politicians. The Embargo would go away.

The Cuban Embargo was necessary once. I'll agree with that, but even Kennedy himself (according to his family members) never intended the Embargo to go on for so long (in fact I believe Senator Kennedy argued for ending the embargo a few years ago when the new stricter laws were passed). Now it's simply another shining example of how our government is out of control and no longer listening to it's citizens. It's simply an abuse of power to continue it.



madurolover said:


> While I do agree with this to some extent it is still a double edged sword.
> Most pedophiles feel that pedophilia should not be illegal. Does that make it ok to be one?
> Should hate crimes be legal because some people think they should?
> I know that these are extreme examples but the fact remains that illegal is just that.....illegal. People should not be excused from illegal activities just because they do not agree with the law.


That logic is flawed, pedophiles do not make up the majority of our society. This is SUPPOSED to be a country where Majority rules (Democracy). I realize that hasn't been the case in decades (to a large extent), but that is the way it was set up, and it is what was intended.

Nowadays we're less free than Canada, England, and several other 1st world countries. But as long as we can buy shiny new gadgets and big SUV's, no one seems to give a damn.



pistol said:


> Isn't that why it's called a law? Last time I checked, we don't get to pick and choose the ones we follow... I'm not saying you have to follow all of them (just be prepared for the consequences if you don't); I don't care, but when you start referring to the embargo against Cuba, and talking about the virtues of breaking the law because our forefathers did it, I have to laugh a little bit...


If we didn't break laws that were stupid, You'd have to go to Canada or Mexico to have a beer after work.

Think about that.


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## Dgar (Sep 12, 2006)

ResIpsa said:


> oh puleezze. People here want to be able to buy Cuban cigars without the fear of repercussion, therefore they want the embargo to end.:2


I can't argue with that...


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## pistol (Mar 23, 2006)

Mr. White said:


> If we didn't break laws that were stupid, You'd have to go to Canada or Mexico to have a beer after work.
> 
> Think about that.


Uh no, we have to change laws that are stupid. If we didn't CHANGE a stupid law, I'd have to go to Canada or Mexico to have a beer after work. Breaking laws that are stupid doesn't accomplish anything productive in and of itself. Dude, I don't really care what people do or don't do. I just fail to see the parallels between our founding fathers revolting against the British government and the Cuban embargo or, as you brought up, the prohibition.


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## Mr. White (Dec 4, 2004)

pistol said:


> Uh no, we have to change laws that are stupid. If we didn't CHANGE a stupid law, I'd have to go to Canada or Mexico to have a beer after work. Breaking laws that are stupid doesn't accomplish anything productive in and of itself. Dude, I don't really care what people do or don't do. I just fail to see the parallels between our founding fathers revolting against the British government and the Cuban embargo or, as you brought up, the prohibition.


It's all part of the same thing. I'm sorry you can't see that. It may not be how other countries do things, but it is how our country has always done things. If it weren't for the 60's and student protests (in which many laws were broken.  ) We might still be fighting the Vietnam "conflict".


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## jitzy (Jan 7, 2007)

point 1, everyone that keeps saying it called civil disobedience needs to get one thing strait its called breaking the law and laws are in place for a reason like them or not its just alot easier for you to do a march thru the streets for a couple of weekends with your friends than it is to loby and try to get laws changed.

point 2, arent people dying everyday trying to escape comunist cuba thats why there is an embargo. dont get me wrong i agree with the statements of other embargos but the fact remains this is a place where a dictator oppresses his own people and they build boats out of old chevys just to get out of there.

final point i will say just couse i disagree with a couple of you dosn't for one second mean i wouldnt sit down and smoke a cigar with you any day of the week couse thas what makes this country great the fact that we can feel free to express our opinions without the fear of jail or death.

ok im done:ss


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## luckybandit (Jul 9, 2006)

MAYBE CLUB STOGIE CAN SPONER YOU!!!

JUST AN IDEA!!



dstaccone said:


> :r Yea laws are important and stuff. I hope they didn't let those 16 and 17 year olds smoke in *Cuba*. That would be horrible. I don't think they cared too much about the laws of NY or in fact the US
> 
> I didn't know about the 10 week loophole for college students. Maybe next year since I will be a senior in college I can figure out a way to go there an smok...er study for 10 weeks. I think that would be highly beneficial to my education.


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## Blueface (May 28, 2005)

Mr. White said:


> I have to disagree with you. Here in America, this is how we as citizens usually end up having to get laws changed, by breaking them.


Wow!
I thought if we had laws and didn't agree with them, you elect people that feel the way you do and have them change the laws.

That a..hole that hit me in the intersection 15 years ago and nearly broke my back, should have ignored the law and shot her. How else could we get laws against murder out of rage changed? Interesting to say the least however, "frightening" is more descriptive.

Little bastards broke a law.
There is a penalty associated with that law whether one cares to like it or not.
Fines should therefore be imposed.


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## awesome1 (Dec 13, 2006)

jitzy said:


> point 1, everyone that keeps saying it called civil disobedience needs to get one thing strait its called breaking the law and laws are in place for a reason like them or not its just alot easier for you to do a march thru the streets for a couple of weekends with your friends than it is to loby and try to get laws changed.
> 
> point 2, arent people dying everyday trying to escape comunist cuba thats why there is an embargo. dont get me wrong i agree with the statements of other embargos but the fact remains this is a place where a dictator oppresses his own people and they build boats out of old chevys just to get out of there.
> 
> ...


I would be the first to join you in a smoke!!!

In regards to the law, I really didnt wantr to make this a political thread because we are all here for the same reasons, the love of the leaf, however the topic in and of itself is a political one so I will post a few observations.

IMO laws are meant to preserve a certain semblemce of a civilized society and for the most part I can certainly live my life within the law. However when the laws encraoch upon my personal freedom for which no man can deprive me of (These are known as unalienable rights or rights granted by the creator, rights you are born with.) then I do not feel I am under any obligation to abide by those laws. Will I pay the price for my disregard of the embargo, yes, I have and will continue to pay but I always said if it cost me 1000.00 a trip to go because of the embargo then I will gladly pay it.

Heres a few other laws you may want to look at. Last december the prsident signed a presidential order suspending habeus corpus and also allowing him to declare martial law. What happens under marshal law? All rights are suspended. As far as I know, these rights are not only unalienable rights but these news laws are in direct violation of the constitution. Am I to uphold the law or the constitution? Isnt the President sworn in to also uphold the constitution? Has he? isnt he breaking the law by not upholding it?

Need more laws? How about the income tax? has anyone here ever truly read the code? I have and have been studying it for the last several months since it was first brought to my attention. In order to truly understand it you will also have to review several supreme court decisions which I have also done. Try to find a definition of income in the codes.. Doesnt exist.. well it sort of does.

All income from whatever source derived.. That is the definition you will find in the codes. 
What is income? Income is a profit or gain from a corporate activity.. You have rental income? Thats taxable. You have income from a business? 
Thats taxable. You have wages from a job? NOT TAXABLE!!! Theres beena lot of research done by attorneys, tax accountants and even former irs agents. Theres one supreme court case now that is challenging it and another attorney in La who is also challenging the IRS. You can go to the liefreezone.com and read the attorneys memorandum yourself, it explains most of what I just mentioned if your interested.. Its a good 3 hour read though but it does discuss the income and what it is in great detail.. very well written..

Anyway, Im off my soapbox for now  Have a great weekend and remember this embargo is hurting the average cuban people more than government and its a sad state of affairs that we in this country will try and starve a people into a revolution.


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