# A lot of goings on in habanos land...



## jgros001

The helicopters are a circlin'.


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## MTusa

Moving the humidor to another house. lol


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## rumballs

huh??


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## NCRadioMan

I think he is talking about the letters that alot of people have been recieving lately from the Treasury Dept.


:ms NCRM


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## j6ppc

OK I give up.


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## Headcrash

Maybe it is cause I am in Canada but I'm not sure what you guys are talking about....But I am interested.


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## Stogiefanatic182

Im also confused


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## Bigwaved

I guess I did not get the stinkin' decoder ring...:c


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## MTusa

Not sure this is kosher but I'm sure it will be edited if it is not:

http://www.vintagecigarclub.com/forums/showthread.php?p=54396

Some people are having some problems with something. Is that a decent description?

Forgot to add, "discuss amongst yourselves".


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## jgros001

NCRadioMan said:


> I think he is talking about the letters that alot of people have been recieving lately from the Treasury Dept.
> 
> :ms NCRM


You hit the nail on the head - and these are not your ordinary run of the mill letters. I know nothing more than what has been written on other boards.


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## MTusa

To summarize, there are two possible letters - pray you get the "nice" one.

and the other disturbing thing:
http://www.treasury.gov/offices/enforcement/ofac/civpen/penalties/11062006.pdf


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## Warhorse545

I think the old pucker factor guage just peged at 100% for some people. 


Stacey


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## Malik23

Never mind.


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## burninator

Warhorse545 said:


> I think the old pucker factor guage just peged at 100% for some people.
> 
> Stacey


:tpd: NOW you tell me! :hn


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## mosesbotbol

Looks like I'll have to use my Swiss debit card... :c


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## Headcrash

Wow that wouldn't be fun to get in the mail


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## 4WheelVFR

What's the bad letter say? Can't be good.


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## White97Jimmy

Click on the link...its posted on another board.


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## BP22

I have been watching this play out for a bit now. The more I read, the more concerned I have become... 

:hn


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## Stogiefanatic182

I cant get the bad letter to show up, keeps saying page cannot be displayed.


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## BP22

Stogiefanatic182 said:


> I cant get the bad letter to show up, keeps saying page cannot be displayed.


Try this one.


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## steelheaderdu

wow, that's some crazy stuff. What exactly does the nice letter say?


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## Stogiefanatic182

BP22 said:


> Try this one.


no luck, oh well it will probably scare me if I read it because I was thinking about making a very small purchase


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## BP22

Stogiefanatic182 said:


> no luck, oh well it will probably scare me if I read it because I was thinking about making a very small purchase


How bout this...


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## EPICSMOKEHERE

Can Castro just die already so we dont have to deal with this shit. Great use of tax payers money right here. Meanwhile up the street from me there are shops legitimately selling marijuana....no problem. :u


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## hollywood

this does not sound like it is going to end well!?


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## Stogiefanatic182

BP22 said:


> How bout this...


nope I got some error message. thanks for trying though


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## OB1 Stogie

Sounds like a random situation used as a scare tactic. I believe the Treasury dept has bigger fish to fry and cant afford to dedicate assets to deter the $500 cigar smoker. But just incase, always use cash (money order, cashiers check, etc) if one were to participate in such illicit activities....no paper trail. :w


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## j6ppc

Yipes.


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## TU09

Is enforcement stepped up or just more nasty letters getting sent out?

And I was just getting ready to do a little holiday shopping...


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## Mikes

OB1 Stogie said:


> Sounds like a random situation used as a scare tactic. I believe the Treasury dept has bigger fish to fry and cant afford to dedicate assets to deter the $500 cigar smoker. But just incase, always use cash (money order, cashiers check, etc) if one were to participate in such illicit activities....no paper trail. :w


You are correct they do have a bigger fish to fry but little fish are also getting thrown in the hot oil now that they see just how deep it all goes. It all started with an ex-pat in hk who deals in cigars. Read: Tax issues as well as trading with the enemy. Guess he should have given up his US citizenship before starting the shop? Then the CC co's were brought into the mix, and false chargebacks were issued to vendor / s in question. Vendor / s then submitted invoices to the CC co's thinking that they had been duped by a customer who ordered cigars and then claimed they didn't. When in fact the vendors $ was never taken out of their CC accts to begin with. These invoices (from as far back as 2004) are being used by our gvt to send out the letters even if packages made it through to the end user. Bottom line is that if you used paipal, visa, mastercard, whatever and it got processed through (xxxxxxxx) online cc service your name might be drawn next from the 'hat' and you might get the letter even if you didn't do business with the co in HK that is being 'looked at' by our gvt because several vendors all use the same online cc service. Take a look at the other cigar bbs, this is being talked about at every site I have seen...some sites as far back as October.

IMO The days of throw away letters are over...If your gonna play you better have the money to pay.


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## CEC_Tech

Reminds me of when directv busted everyone with owning smart card programming equipment and altered access cards. The case against everyone was thrown out, but no lawyer / court fees were refunded. A couple of guys I knew were out 5k.

This is playing out much in the same way, except uncle sam is gonna hand out the spankings.:tg


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## Trout

Holly crap even Kramer got the letter.

Kramer heads to the Cuban Diplomatic Mission at the United Nations to get hold of some cigars and meets three Cuban diplomats who, although they have some, tell him that they are illegal in the United States. However, the chief diplomat likes Kramer's jacket, and they come to an agreement to swap.

http://www.answers.com/topic/the-cheever-letters


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## Mikes

CEC_Tech said:


> Reminds me of when directv busted everyone with owning smart card programming equipment and altered access cards. The case against everyone was thrown out, but no lawyer / court fees were refunded. A couple of guys I knew were out 5k.
> 
> This is playing out much in the same way, except uncle sam is gonna hand out the spankings.:tg


YUP...Been there done that.


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## burninator

I'm scared. Somebody hold me.


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## yayson

burninator said:


> I'm scared. Somebody hold me.


I'm here darling, I'm here.


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## j6ppc

Tmi


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## dayplanner

montecristo#2 said:


> They actually took this thread down. Too bad as it had some interesting information.
> 
> [edit] - *all you have to do is register to read the thread*.


 Lordy.


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## Lumpold

And all I have to worry about is huge import taxes.

Although, fingers crossed for the EU courts... see if they let us legally import stuff without having to pay taxes... DO SOMETHING RIGHT, YOU BUNCH OF TAX-SPENDING, SOIREE THROWING, EURO JUDGES!


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## burninator

yayson said:


> I'm here darling, I'm here.


Did you touch my bum?


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## Corona Gigante-cl

Aye. There's doin's afooft.

The only people who are surprised would be those of us who didn't see a problem with the provisions in the Patriots Act to allow the federal government greater powers to review private citizens' financial transactions. Who could guess those powers would be used to score some cheap political points with the anti-Castro contingent in Florida?


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## Hydrated

burninator said:


> I'm scared. Somebody hold me.


Don't trust KASR to comfort you... he apparently got me knocked up. There's gonna be hell to pay when my wife finds out!


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## blowfin

Mikes said:


> You are correct they do have a bigger fish to fry but little fish are also getting thrown in the hot oil now that they see just how deep it all goes. It all started with an ex-pat in hk who deals in cigars. Read: Tax issues as well as trading with the enemy. Guess he should have given up his US citizenship before starting the shop? Then the CC co's were brought into the mix, and false chargebacks were issued to vendor / s in question. Vendor / s then submitted invoices to the CC co's thinking that they had been duped by a customer who ordered cigars and then claimed they didn't. When in fact the vendors $ was never taken out of their CC accts to begin with. These invoices (from as far back as 2004) are being used by our gvt to send out the letters even if packages made it through to the end user. Bottom line is that if you used paipal, visa, mastercard, whatever and it got processed through (xxxxxxxx) online cc service your name might be drawn next from the 'hat' and you might get the letter even if you didn't do business with the co in HK that is being 'looked at' by our gvt because several vendors all use the same online cc service. Take a look at the other cigar bbs, this is being talked about at every site I have seen...some sites as far back as October.
> 
> IMO The days of throw away letters are over...If your gonna play you better have the money to pay.


Does anyone have any data on how many purchases were allegedly made by individuals receiving these letters? It looks like this has been tracked for some time, since 2004?


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## burninator

Hydrated said:


> Don't trust KASR to comfort you... he apparently got me knocked up. There's gonna be hell to pay when my wife finds out!


But he's so gentle. :al


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## papajohn67

I don't get the credit card bit. So Joe A. places an order with company Happytimes using a credit card to buy "something". Ok company Happytimes sells that "something" but they also sell other things like special humidors and other stuff. So how do the "good guys" deduce from the charge on Joe A's credit card just what he bought from company Happytimes? Would seem to me without that "something" in Joe A's. hand or in the "good guys" hands they would just be sort of blowing smoke. Not that I would never try and buy a "something" but without complete transaction records all a credit company possesses is the business name and dollar amount. Isn't it sort of we think you bought "something" so your guilty. Or I'm I wrong?


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## burninator

papajohn67 said:


> I don't get the credit card bit. So Joe A. places an order with company Happytimes using a credit card to buy "something". Ok company Happytimes sells that "something" but they also sell other things like special humidors and other stuff. So how do the "good guys" deduce from the charge on Joe A's credit card just what he bought from company Happytimes? Would seem to me without that "something" in Joe A's. hand or in the "good guys" hands they would just be sort of blowing smoke. Not that I would never try and buy a "something" but without complete transaction records all a credit company possesses is the business name and dollar amount. Isn't it sort of we think you bought "something" so your guilty. Or I'm I wrong?


Definitely seems to be a great deal of intimidation involved here. Even without hard evidence, though, I imagine our big brother could make things pretty miserable for you, even without going through with charges.


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## Trout

papajohn67 said:


> I don't get the credit card bit. So Joe A. places an order with company Happytimes using a credit card to buy "something". Ok company Happytimes sells that "something" but they also sell other things like special humidors and other stuff. So how do the "good guys" deduce from the charge on Joe A's credit card just what he bought from company Happytimes? Would seem to me without that "something" in Joe A's. hand or in the "good guys" hands they would just be sort of blowing smoke. Not that I would never try and buy a "something" but without complete transaction records all a credit company possesses is the business name and dollar amount. Isn't it sort of we think you bought "something" so your guilty. Or I'm I wrong?


:tpd:

I smell smoke blowing up ,,,, ya know


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## donp

papajohn67 said:


> I don't get the credit card bit. So Joe A. places an order with company Happytimes using a credit card to buy "something". Ok company Happytimes sells that "something" but they also sell other things like special humidors and other stuff. So how do the "good guys" deduce from the charge on Joe A's credit card just what he bought from company Happytimes? Would seem to me without that "something" in Joe A's. hand or in the "good guys" hands they would just be sort of blowing smoke. Not that I would never try and buy a "something" but without complete transaction records all a credit company possesses is the business name and dollar amount. Isn't it sort of we think you bought "something" so your guilty. Or I'm I wrong?


A good question. I have been wondering about what the guy did to bring all of this down on himself and potentially others. You make a good point about the credit card transaction too. I also can't imagine a foreign vendor would feel any compulsion to release financial info of their customers to any foreign government, at least not over cigars.


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## par

_trading with the enemy_ -doesn't that sound pretty scary eh? do you feel that you are trading with the enemy? Are you undermining the very society you live in?

hmmmm....


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## Trout

Heck.... I thought am I trading with the enemy when I voted in the last election.


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## par

touche! 

perfect use of irony!


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## Trout

Republicans propose last-minute spy bill

Check out this link.
http://news.com.com/2100-1028_3-6136026.html?part=rss&tag=2547-1_3-0-5&subj=news

It amazes me that we are losing are freedoms and seem so powerless to do anything about it. Our government feels the need to spend money on some guy buying a few ISMOMs.

Anti-Smoking laws
Taking a person property for private development.
warrant-less wiretaps
Reporters in Jail for not giving up a source.
A border problem that is out of control.

Absolutely amazing:sb


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## donp

Trout said:


> Republicans propose last-minute spy bill
> 
> Check out this link.
> http://news.com.com/2100-1028_3-6136026.html?part=rss&tag=2547-1_3-0-5&subj=news
> 
> It amazes me that we are losing are freedoms and seem so powerless to do anything about it. Our government feels the need to spend money on some guy buying a few ISMOMs.
> 
> Anti-Smoking laws
> Taking a person property for private development.
> warrant-less wiretaps
> Reporters in Jail for not giving up a source.
> A border problem that is out of control.
> 
> Absolutely amazing:sb


It used to be one man, one vote, and it was supposed to count for something.


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## TU09

I asked a retailer whether their cc processing company had turned over any info to the treasury department and they said they didn't think so and that even if they did, the processing company that they work with could offer no invoices or addresses, only "confirmation of a payment to HK." Wouldn't such practices be fairly common amongst cc processors?

I've been away from my PO box for some time and this thread kind of startled me, didn't know what sort of mail I might find next week. Thought I'd share what I had learned. I'm still not entirely certain as to what happened because this thread is (and probably rightly so) pretty vague and I haven't located any info on other boards. In any case, if someone might be willing to PM me with additional info I'd be very grateful.


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## mosesbotbol

papajohn67 said:


> I don't get the credit card bit. So Joe A. places an order with company Happytimes using a credit card to buy "something". Ok company Happytimes sells that "something" but they also sell other things like special humidors and other stuff. Or I'm I wrong?


The government are no fools... Just because you vacation in Afghanistan, ordered a lot of fertilizer and blasting caps does not mean you're a terrorist... Be careful, is all I can tell you, know what is right and wrong, and so do they. We may not agree with it, but those are the facts...


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## papajohn67

mosesbotbol said:


> The government are no fools... Just because you vacation in Afghanistan, ordered a lot of fertilizer and blasting caps does not mean you're a terrorist... Be careful, is all I can tell you, know what is right and wrong, and so do they. We may not agree with it, but those are the facts...


Without a doubt the iron fist can be brought down on anyone by the Government at anytime they feel...rightly or wrongly. The irony of this whole situation at least in my book is what we are talking about, it ain't "fertilizer and blasting caps" it's stinking cigars. I can see it now, a convoy of cars rolling through the countryside to enforce national security. They pass the woods where the meth labs are cooking, right past the crack houses and end up J. Reno style to enforce "the law".

I wonder if we took a nation wide poll today just where the people would stand concerning the embargo. If were so damn concerned let's go 100% hog wild and embargo the purchases we make from those South American Country's who do not seem so friendly to us these days. Wait a minute that's oil.....no frigging way.


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## donp

par said:


> _trading with the enemy_ -doesn't that sound pretty scary eh? do you feel that you are trading with the enemy? Are you undermining the very society you live in?
> 
> hmmmm....


An interesting question. For me I figure I'm not so much dealing with the enemy as dealing with a friend of the enemy. Hell if I buy a product from a friendly country which happens to have bought that product from an unfriendly country, how am I wrong? I have certain inalienable rights as an american citizen, which include making purchases from whichever place I choose, unless it is illegal. Now purchasing products from an unfirendly country whose products are deemed illegal (ie: embargoed) is not possible. But if it is possible to get the same products from elswhere, I see no harm; at least that is my rationalization. 
But, I'm still stumped on how a vendor in a foreign nation would be forced to give up financial info on their business transactions??  Wouldn't that compromise their business? If so, couldn't they let out a howl of protest to their respective governments? Curiouser and curiouser


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## LasciviousXXX

There are a lot of facts out there right now that aren't being discussed on the open boards. Just suffice to say that these aren't your regular letters.

My personal advice... if you receive one, contact your lawyer.


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## donp

LasciviousXXX said:


> There are a lot of facts out there right now that aren't being discussed on the open boards. Just suffice to say that these aren't your regular letters.
> 
> My personal advice... if you receive one, contact your lawyer.


Roger that.


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## mosesbotbol

papajohn67 said:


> Without a doubt the iron fist can be brought down on anyone by the Government at anytime they feel...rightly or wrongly. The irony of this whole situation at least in my book is what we are talking about, it ain't "fertilizer and blasting caps" it's stinking cigars. I can see it now, a convoy of cars rolling through the countryside to enforce national security. They pass the woods where the meth labs are cooking, right past the crack houses and end up J. Reno style to enforce "the law".
> 
> I wonder if we took a nation wide poll today just where the people would stand concerning the embargo. If were so damn concerned let's go 100% hog wild and embargo the purchases we make from those South American Country's who do not seem so friendly to us these days. Wait a minute that's oil.....no frigging way.


I am with you on that, but Florida is pulling our strings and unless we boycott China, our government is a bunch of hypocrites.


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## Legends of the Playground

TU09 said:


> I asked a retailer whether their cc processing company had turned over any info to the treasury department and they said they didn't think so and that even if they did, the processing company that they work with could offer no invoices or addresses, only "confirmation of a payment to HK." Wouldn't such practices be fairly common amongst cc processors?
> 
> I've been away from my PO box for some time and this thread kind of startled me, didn't know what sort of mail I might find next week. Thought I'd share what I had learned. I'm still not entirely certain as to what happened because this thread is (and probably rightly so) pretty vague and I haven't located any info on other boards. In any case, if someone might be willing to PM me with additional info I'd be very grateful.


Unless your retailer used a certain processor, you're probably all right.

This will get ugly until someone in power pulls their head out.


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## LSUTIGER

Any news on what has transpired since these new letters have been sent?


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## DAFU

LSUTIGER said:


> Any news on what has transpired since these new letters have been sent?


What............more random acts of futility???


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## LasciviousXXX

LSUTIGER said:


> Any news on what has transpired since these new letters have been sent?


Yep. Get a lawyer


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## mosesbotbol

I question the original poster’s legitimacy with actually getting a letter and the whole string of events after. I’ve read this event on other forums and it could be a scare tactic to undermine a particular vendor.


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## LasciviousXXX

mosesbotbol said:


> I question the original poster's legitimacy with actually getting a letter and the whole string of events after. I've read this event on other forums and it could be a scare tactic to undermine a particular vendor.


I don't. There are more than just 1 vendor involved in this whole thing. I don't think this is a smear campaign on any one particular vendor. Just a warning to the community in general.


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## mosesbotbol

LasciviousXXX said:


> I don't. There are more than just 1 vendor involved in this whole thing. I don't think this is a smear campaign on any one particular vendor. Just a warning to the community in general.


Could be true, but one has to be a little skeptical of stuff online. I would not parade around saying one has purchased such things online in the US and then got a letter from the Federal Government.

I have seen such letters first hand mailed to friends, without getting into details, so I know this does happen.


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## mr.c

LasciviousXXX said:


> I don't. There are more than just 1 vendor involved in this whole thing. I don't think this is a smear campaign on any one particular vendor. Just a warning to the community in general.


yup dustin is right.

becareful of who you deal with.


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## ky toker

mosesbotbol said:


> you, know what is right and wrong, and so do they. We may not agree with it, but those are the facts...I am with you on that, but Florida is pulling our strings and unless we boycott China, our government is a bunch of hypocrites.


:tpd:

Seems we still have an embargo against Cuba and if you circumvent the system don't pretend you're the victim. :mn _Not that I agree with all the asshats in DC._

Boli cab: $240
My stash: $1 billion dollars
My Christmas Tree was made in *Red China*: *Priceless*

Disclaimer: Not sure if the price of the Boli cab is correct. Not a shot at Dave and while it could be an approximate I do not know the actual cost of his cigars, I just like saying "1 billion".


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## smokin' machinist

, Now I'm a little worried, didn't read all of this thread and received an email saying a certain plane was a little heavier this morning.


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## LSUTIGER

I wonder if King Cat is worried, he bought a couple boxes from one of these supposed vendors


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## montecristo#2

LSUTIGER said:


> I wonder if King Cat is worried, he bought a couple boxes from one of these supposed vendors


Have you tried sending him an email? Would be interesting.


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## LeafHog

LSUTIGER said:


> I wonder if King Cat is worried, he bought a couple boxes from one of these supposed vendors


ROFLMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!! Gee, that's a shame.


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## IHT

LSUTIGER said:


> I wonder if King Cat is worried, he bought a couple boxes from one of these supposed vendors


i posted that in the moderator forum. it would be so sweet if that were the case.


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## TU09

IHT said:


> i posted that in the moderator forum. it would be so sweet if that were the case.


Ahhhh.... Yet another hidden forum eh? I can only imagine what happens there!


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## LSUTIGER

TU09 said:


> Ahhhh.... Yet another hidden forum eh? I can only imagine what happens there!


Habanos WTS/WTT/WTB no doubt


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## montecristo#2

IHT said:


> i posted that in the moderator forum. it would be so sweet if that were the case.


????? I think I have to disagree with your statement. If I understand you correctly, why would you wish this on a fellow BOTL?


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## kjd2121

montecristo#2 said:


> ????? I think I have to disagree with your statement. If I understand you correctly, why would you wish this on a fellow BOTL?


That's what I'm wondering as well. Is KingCat a "BAD" cat??


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## opus

kjd2121 said:


> That's what I'm wondering as well. *Is KingCat a "BAD" cat*??


If you consider buying habanos and then selling them for a profit bad.....then the answer is yes.


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## montecristo#2

opusxox said:


> If you consider buying habanos and then selling them for a profit bad.....then the answer is yes.


This is all in the past. Not really worth bringing up again. I just didn't think the comment was very tasteful, since any number of BOTLs could be in the same situation, nothing personal against IHT.

I actually bought tatuajes and padron annis from him. He got me started on my Pepin kick.


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## Churchlady

kjd2121 said:


> That's what I'm wondering as well. Is KingCat a "BAD" cat??


Do a bit of research boys....


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## opus

montecristo#2 said:


> I still disagree with what went down, but honestly, this is all in the past. Not really worth bringing up again. I just didn't think the comment was very tasteful, nothing personal against IHT.


The truth isn't always pretty. You are right, it is history now.


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## Neuromancer

It seems, in all the discussion of the letters, that they were sent to those who bought from certain vendors in Southeast Asia...anyone know if they were sent to anyone buying in Europe?


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## SDmate

Churchlady said:


> Do a bit of research boys....


WTF!!!!......that would mean they'd have to use the search button:hn


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## kjd2121

SDmate said:


> WTF!!!!......that would mean they'd have to use the search button:hn


Uhhhhh, sorry. It's not like I was asking about something so obvious.


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## LSUTIGER

opusxox said:


> If you consider buying habanos and then selling them for a profit bad.....then the answer is yes.


although if he were still selling here, plenty would still be buying :mn


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## raisin

I'd be more worried about what he'll be selling to save his ass... :sl


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## j6ppc

LSUTIGER said:


> although if he were still selling here, plenty would still be buying :mn


Zeitgeist...

Seriously--- You takes ur risks and face the consequences...


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## LasciviousXXX

Letters, Letters, and more letters.... sheesh what's the world coming to? Rule number one in this obsession is that you take the risk when playing the game... expect to have your number called one of these days. Its just the risk you take I guess.

Second, I don't consider anyone a BOTL who rips off people and basically makes money of good brothers. I know many FOG's who were not at all pleased with Mr. Cat's un-brotherly behavior.

My definition of a *Brother* of the Leaf is someone who is a generous, intelligent, and caring member of the Cigar Community who helps other Brother's out when necessary and genuinely shares his knowledge and love of the Leaf with others.

Someone who knowingly rips off other members of this fine community does not fall into that definition. :2


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## jgros001

http://www.treas.gov/offices/enforcement/ofac/actions/20061201.shtml

another settlement posted


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## Blaylock-cl

LasciviousXXX said:


> Letters, Letters, and more letters.... sheesh what's the world coming to? Rule number one in this obsession is that you take the risk when playing the game... expect to have your number called one of these days. Its just the risk you take I guess.
> :2


I agree with rule number one, as stated above. I would also like to warn that violations, from some letters, state that you *may* receive jail time and up to $67,000.00 per violation. This does not sound like someting anyone should take lightly.


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## montecristo#2

LasciviousXXX said:


> Second, I don't consider anyone a BOTL who rips off people and basically makes money of good brothers. I know many FOG's who were not at all pleased with Mr. Cat's un-brotherly behavior.
> 
> My definition of a *Brother* of the Leaf is someone who is a generous, intelligent, and caring member of the Cigar Community who helps other Brother's out when necessary and genuinely shares his knowledge and love of the Leaf with others.
> 
> Someone who knowingly rips off other members of this fine community does not fall into that definition. :2


Edited: will just send a PM, not worth writing in public.


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## LasciviousXXX

montecristo#2 said:


> Edited: will just send a PM, not worth writing in public.


RG bump for the thoughtful, respectful, and well thought out PM. Goes a long way in my book.


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## Da Klugs

LSUTIGER said:


> although if he were still selling here, plenty would still be buying :mn


Moot point. Personally I thought his behavior was reprehensible. The fact that fiver's at a 20-25% profit to him was OK by the buyers doesn't excuse the act by the site owner who's rules it was in violation of.

But you never know, maybe something will change and he will be back....


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## accigar

Blake Lockhart said:


> I agree with rule number one, as stated above. I would also like to warn that violations, from some letters, state that you *may* receive jail time and up to $67,000.00 per violation. This does not sound like someting anyone should take lightly.


I hope the government is not as unforgiving as paypal.com :hn

A.C.


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## OpusXtasy

accigar said:


> I hope the government is not as unforgiving as paypal.com :hn
> 
> A.C.


Agreed. And in the nicest words I can muster "Screw Paypal!" HEHE, I feel better already.

OX


----------



## icehog3

LasciviousXXX said:


> RG bump for the thoughtful, respectful, and well thought out PM. Goes a long way in my book.


Yer such a softie, Dustin!! (Or is that what Jenna J. said?)


----------



## Bigwaved

icehog3 said:


> Yer such a softie, Dustin!! (Or is that what Jenna J. said?)


Couldn't set up the pup tent, eh, Dustin?


----------



## LasciviousXXX

icehog3 said:


> Yer such a softie, Dustin!! (Or is that what Jenna J. said?)


Shit man I don't care what she said to me as long as she was saying it TO ME


----------



## LSUTIGER

There are some members on another board that have come up with a letter of their own that they would like BOTLs to send to their representatives and senators (regarding invasion of privacy and the embargo). Is it OK if I post it here?


----------



## j6ppc

LSUTIGER said:


> There are some members on another board that have come up with a letter of their own that they would like BOTLs to send to their representatives and senators (regarding invasion of privacy and the embargo). Is it OK if I post it here?


At the very least you'd need the permission of the original poster(s); generally cross posting is frowned upon esp. if not by the original author.


----------



## TU09

j6ppc said:


> At the very least you'd need the permission of the original poster(s); generally cross posting is frowned upon esp. if not by the original author.


Reading LSU's post, it sounds as if the original author does indeed want this letter to be reposted and then mailed to congressmen. I for one would be interested in seeing it and don't really see a problem but I'm still just a noob...

:2


----------



## jgros001

Hey all, I am posting this with permission from VCC where I had originally read this. Thought it would be a good idea to share and hopefully more people will join in to send to their representatives. Would also like to thank the original draftee of this letter.

********************************************

Dear __________:

I am a member of various internet cigar-oriented forums or "bulletin boards." Through those memberships I have learned that dozens, if not hundreds of my fellow cigar smokers have recently been sent letters by the U.S. Department of Treasury, Office of Foreign Assets Control ("OFAC") alleging that they have illegally purchased Cuban cigars from "a Hong Kong vendor" and demanding that they submit information responsive to a questionnaire. A redacted copy of one such letter is enclosed for your information.

These letters trouble me in a number of respects. First, how did OFAC obtain information relating to the alleged purchases? I suspect that the information derived from information gathering under the Patriot Act or other statutes enacted to combat international terrorism. To the extent that my friends and on-line acquaintances may have acquired Cuban cigars, they assure me that they have done so for their private consumption, and they can hardly be considered terrorists or threats to our national security. OFAC's letters appear to me to be generated by warrantless searches or misuse of information produced incidental to legitimate searches for terrorist activity. Moreover they appear to be a huge waste of resources that should more properly be devoted to seeking out and eliminating financial resources of genuine terrorist groups.

Second, while the letters purport to invoke "civil penalties", there can be no question that if someone produced the requested information it would incriminate them in conduct made criminal under the Trading with the Enemy Act. As such, the letters ask the recipients to give up their rights under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States without providing any notice of their rights to remain silent or to consult an attorney.

Third, it is my judgment that the Cuban embargo and statutes enacted thereunder are bad and ineffective foreign policy. Over 47 years they have failed to achieve "regime change" in Cuba, and Cuba cannot seriously be considered a legitimate threat to our national security at this time. The only real result of the embargo is to inflict punishment on the people of Cuba and their families and loved ones who are now citizens of the country. How can our government justify the Cuban embargo while it actively supports economic transactions with China, to name just one country whose communist government is oppressive and which represents a significant threat to our economy and other national interests?

I ask that you use your influence to put a stop to OFAC's unlawful and unconstitutional campaign against individuals who are alleged to have bought a few boxes of Cuban cigars from on-line vendors. Moreover I ask you to take steps to put an immediate end to the ill-advised and totally ineffective Cuban embargo.

Sincerely,

**********************
(redacted letter to attach as referenced above)

The United States Treasury Department's Office of Foreign Assets
Control ("OFAC") administers a comprehensive trade embargo and assets
freeze against Cuba as promulgated in the Cuban Assets Control
Regulations, 31 C.F.R. Part 515 (the "Regulations"), issued pursuant
to the Trading with the Enemy Act, 50 U.S.C. App. 1 et seq. ("TWEA")
and the Cuban Democracy Act of 1992, 22 U.S.C. 6001-10 ("CDA"). The
Regulations prohibit virtually all direct or indirect commercial, financial, or trade transactions of any nature with Cuba by any person subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, except as authorized by the Secretary of the Treasury or exempted by statute.Section 515.201(b) of the Regulations prohibits persons subject to United States jurisdiction from engaging in transactions involving property in which Cuba or a Cuban national has an interest of any nature whatsoever, direct or indierct, unless exmempt or authorized by OFAC. Included in this prohibition is the importation of Cuban origin goods (including cigars) into the U.S.

Section 515.204 prohibits persons subject to the jurisdiction of the
U.S. from purchasing, transporting, importing or otherwise dealing in
or engaging in any transactino with respect to any merchandise (including cigars) outside the U.S. if such merchandise is of Cuban origin.

Attached for your information is a Cuban cigar update published by
this office which explains the embargo as it pertains to Cuban cigars.

It has come to our attention that on [number] occasions between
January **, 200* and October **, 200*, you purchased Cuban Cigars from
____________________, located in _______________.

Pursuant to the authorities granted in section 5(b) of TWEA and
section 501.602 of the Reporting and Procedures Regulations, 31,
C.F.R. Part 501, you are herby required to furnish OFAC with a written
report detailing a complete history of your involvement in the
purchase, production, importation and sale of Cuban origin cigars.

Your report must include the following informaton at a minimum:

1. The dates, quantity, and value of Cuban cigars or tobacco
purchased by you. Indicate the method of payment. (If another party
purchased Cuban cigars or tobacco on your behalf, identify that party.)

2. Copies of all transactional documents, such as: invoices,
bills of sale, receipts or other documents pertaining to the purchase
of Cuban cigars or tobacco.

3. If you purchased Cuban cigars or tobacco outside the U.S.,
explain the method by which you imported the cigars into the U.S.

4. Any additional information related to the purchase,
production, or sale of cigars by you that is relevant to this matter.

Your report is due at OFAC not later than 20 business days from date
of receipt of this letter. It should be sent to [_____________] at
the following address:

Department of the Treasury
Office of Foreign Assets Control
1500 Pennsylvania Avenue N.W. (Annex)
Washington DC 20220

Criminal penalties for violation of the Regulations range up to 10
years in prison and $1 million in corporate and $250,000 in individual
fines. Civil penalties of up to $65,000 per violation may be imposed
administratively by OFAC.

You should also be aware that failure to respond to this letter may
result in the imposition of civil penalties. If you have any
questions, call Mr. [________] at (202) xxx-xxxx


----------



## bonggoy

How would you interpret this letter if you really don't care about cigars, much more (ilegal) cuban cigars?


----------



## Neuromancer

Personally, I think bringing your name to the attention of anyone in our government, regarding Cuban cigars, or the embargo, while well intended, is not such a wise idea...


----------



## NCRadioMan

Neuromancer said:


> Personally, I think bringing your name to the attention of anyone in our government, regarding Cuban cigars, or the embargo, while well intended, is not such a wise idea...


:tpd: and/or bringing unwanted, extra, attention to cigar boards.


----------



## Neuromancer

Neuromancer said:


> Personally, I think bringing your name to the attention of anyone in our government, regarding Cuban cigars, or the embargo, while well intended, is not such a wise idea...





NCRadioMan said:


> :tpd: and/or bringing unwanted, extra, attention to cigar boards.


AH, HA!!! He finally agrees with me about something...


----------



## muziq

Reading this thread got me to thinking...and looking...and found the bio on the person at the head of OFAC now...recently installed by our new Fed Chair...


----------



## donp

muziq said:


> Reading this thread got me to thinking...and looking...and found the bio on the person at the head of OFAC now...recently installed by our new Fed Chair...


Now theres a guy who looks like he wants to make his bones, and become a mover and shaker. If he isn't careful he could wind up working for the ACLU.


----------



## j6ppc

jgros001 said:


> (redacted letter to attach as referenced above)


Canary Trap anyone?


----------



## ResIpsa

Neuromancer said:


> Personally, I think bringing your name to the attention of anyone in our government, regarding Cuban cigars, or the embargo, while well intended, is not such a wise idea...





NCRadioMan said:


> :tpd: and/or bringing unwanted, extra, attention to cigar boards.


I'm with these guys, I think this is a very bad idea. One, as previously stated why bring yourself to the attention of the powers that be? Two, why widely publicize the existence of what goes on on the cigar boards (Hey, did you hear there are cigar boards where you can buy cuban cigars??" "Really?" "yeah, there are vendors in Hong Kong who'll sell the cigars to you.......") This just looks like a major cluster **** waiting to happen.

It's not as if these letters you would send are some super secret "for your eyes only" correspondece. They would be read by everyone from the secretaries right on down the line, who would discuss with their friends, and their friends and their friends......


----------



## muziq

donp said:


> Now theres a guy who looks like he wants to make his bones, and become a mover and shaker. If he isn't careful he could wind up working for the ACLU.


Exactly my thinking. It's not unreasonable to assume he's doing just this, taking the TWEA, enhanced by additional surveilance powers, for a ride and seeing how many BOTLs he can get to reply to the letter, incriminate themselves, and rack up easy points with his boss, who himself is a fairly recent edition. Anyone know a well-placed congress member who happens to be a B/SOTL that could put a bug in this guy's ear that it's not good to waste surveilance resources that could be directed at terrorists on enforcing the TWEA? :bx Given that the reigns have changed hands in congress recently--and the country in general is in one of those wonderful periods where its actually questioning the hegemony--some insider work by a sympathetic congress member might make all our lives a little less stressful. Since TWEA applies primarily to interactions with North Korea and Cuba, as a tax-payer I would appreciate these kinds of surveilance resources--be they the result of the Patriot Act or any other new technology or process--being applied to detering interaction with a country that poses a potential nuclear threat to us instead of relatively small individual interactions with a crumbling island nation. Just my :2


----------



## burninator

ResIpsa said:


> I'm with these guys, I think this is a very bad idea. One, as previously stated why bring yourself to the attention of the powers that be? Two, why widely publicize the existence of what goes on on the cigar boards (Hey, did you hear there are cigar boards where you can buy cuban cigars??" "Really?" "yeah, there are vendors in Hong Kong who'll sell the cigars to you.......") This just looks like a major cluster **** waiting to happen.
> 
> It's not as if these letters you would send are some super secret "for your eyes only" correspondece. They would be read by everyone from the secretaries right on down the line, who would discuss with their friends, and their friends and their friends......


"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." Edmund Burke

It doesn't seem right to me that we think an injustice is taking place, yet we do nothing for fear of getting in trouble with the people carrying out the injustice.


----------



## croatan

While I appreciate the sentiment of the above letter, I would not put my name to it. I don't think it prudent to involve cigar boards or admit knowledge of illegal activities.


----------



## TU09

ResIpsa said:


> This just looks like a major cluster **** waiting to happen.


:tpd:

I dont' believe throwing your name out there is that risky, we might be giving the US bureaucracy more credit for organizational and intel gathering skills than it really possesses. I do think the letter takes the wrong approach, however, and will not be sending one because of content, not a fear of exposing myself. 
:2


----------



## ResIpsa

burninator said:


> "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." Edmund Burke
> 
> It doesn't seem right to me that we think an injustice is taking place, yet we do nothing for fear of getting in trouble with the people carrying out the injustice.


You misunderstand my point.  There are ways to do this and things to put in a letter that would achieve the same end, without throwing the cigar boards under the bus or creating unwanted attention for yourself. For example, very quickly and without giving this very much thought at all:

Dear Representative:

blah blah blah introduction, blah blah blah....I was greatly disturbed to hear from a friend of mine that he was under investigation for allegedly violating the Cuban embargo, apparently he is being accused of buying Cuban cigars.

I am disappointed, and yes, a little outraged that this is how my tax dollars are being spent when we are involved in an overseas war and under constant threat of terrorist attack. Are private citizens purchasing tobacco a major threat to this country?....blah blah blah.

See? No mention that I am involved in cigars or cigar boards, no mention of Hong Kong vendors or anything else that would bring unwanted attention to us. That is my point


----------



## donp

If it were me I would not see any reason to come out from under the radar screen to make a point that is not clearly seen by those who make and enforce the law. If they are misusing the patriot act resources, they wouldn't give a rats behind about letters sent by outraged smokers.


----------



## Twill413

ResIpsa said:


> See? No mention that I am involved in cigars or cigar boards, no mention of Hong Kong vendors or anything else that would bring unwanted attention to us. That is my point


:tpd: The same strong point can be made without going into so much detail. Being as vague as possible is a good thing, especially when dealing with the US government, cuz they have everyone outgunned. Never give "the man" any more ammunition/information than is abosolutely necessary.


----------



## burninator

ResIpsa said:


> You misunderstand my point.  There are ways to do this and things to put in a letter that would achieve the same end, without throwing the cigar boards under the bus or creating unwanted attention for yourself. For example, very quickly and without giving this very much thought at all:
> 
> Dear Representative:
> 
> blah blah blah introduction, blah blah blah....I was greatly disturbed to hear from a friend of mine that he was under investigation for allegedly violating the Cuban embargo, apparently he is being accused of buying Cuban cigars.
> 
> I am disappointed, and yes, a little outraged that this is how my tax dollars are being spent when we are involved in an overseas war and under constant threat of terrorist attack. Are private citizens purchasing tobacco a major threat to this country?....blah blah blah.
> 
> See? No mention that I am involved in cigars or cigar boards, no mention of Hong Kong vendors or anything else that would bring unwanted attention to us. That is my point


Nice. Sorry I misunderstood.


----------



## hamncheese

muziq said:


> Reading this thread got me to thinking...and looking...and found the bio on the person at the head of OFAC now...recently installed by our new Fed Chair...


Hank Paulson is the Treasury Secretary, not the Fed Chairman (Ben Bernanke). Both are new, but the Fed has nothing to do with the OFAC. Sorry for being a nit, but this is my area of expertise


----------



## TU09

pnutbutrsangwich said:


> Hank Paulson is the Treasury Secretary, not the Fed Chairman (Ben Bernanke). Both are new, but the Fed has nothing to do with the OFAC. Sorry for being a nit, but *this is my area of expertise*


We've been infiltrated! :gn


----------



## muziq

pnutbutrsangwich said:


> Hank Paulson is the Treasury Secretary, not the Fed Chairman (Ben Bernanke). Both are new, but the Fed has nothing to do with the OFAC. Sorry for being a nit, but this is my area of expertise


I stand corrected--thanks! :sl


----------



## LasciviousXXX

BEST ADVICE I CAN GIVE IS............

Lay the F*ck low unless you receive a letter. If you DO receive a letter then contact a FOG and your attorney. Otherwise..... LIE LOW!!


----------



## RPB67

LasciviousXXX said:


> BEST ADVICE I CAN GIVE IS............
> 
> Lay the F*ck low unless you receive a letter. If you DO receive a letter then contact a FOG and your attorney. Otherwise..... LIE LOW!!


I would contact an atty first. Then keep it as quiet as you can. Less people involved the better.

To many people involved just turns it into a speculation thread. If you get it hopefully your atty will give you good advice. I would not listen to anyone else.


----------



## Ivory Tower

Ahhh the Patriot Act.


----------



## Gargamel

Any troubles arising from the purveyors of fine chocolates? Lord I hope not...


----------



## Lopez

LasciviousXXX said:


> Yep. Get a lawyer


Very good advice. Looking at the text of the letter received from the feds, I'm wondering if a criminal lawyer would advise responding only by claiming 5th amendment rights against self incrimination. The information the letter requests is pretty much that you provide evidence against yourself that you have committed criminal acts. If the means of this jihad against BOTLs is the Patriot Act, it's a gross violation of what the intent of the legislation was supposed to be.


----------



## TU09

Ivory Tower said:


> Ahhh the Patriot Act.


Sort of thing that happens when you trade away your rights for temporary comfort..



Richard Jackson (probably) often misattributed to Franklin said:


> "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety"


----------



## Gargamel

Anyone? Is this just an HK problem? I kinda need to know.


----------



## LSUTIGER

I would like to state that the same things were being said in the OP on VCC (ie not drawing attention to cigar smokers, cigar boards, HK vendors, etc...), just that our gov't is (probably) using the Patriot Act to invade citizens privacy & the embargo is a failed attempt to change the regime on the island and we as citizens are concerned, etc etc....


----------



## TU09

Gargamel said:


> Anyone? Is this just an HK problem? I kinda need to know.


Per my understanding yes, and only certain HK vendors at that.


----------



## LasciviousXXX

TU09 said:


> Per my understanding yes, and only certain HK vendors at that.


Incorrect information at this point.

Let's not start dragging vendors into this though, that will get the thread closed I'm sure.


----------



## TU09

LasciviousXXX said:


> Incorrect information at this point.
> 
> Let's not start dragging vendors into this though, that will get the thread closed I'm sure.


Without addressing individual vendors, what is known to be _correct _at this point? Does this now apply to other regions? With all due respect, if there is some reason this info should not be posted, please let me know because as long as no vendors or customers are named, I don't see how it could be a problem.

My apologies to Gargamel for passing along apperantly incorrect or incomplete info.


----------



## LasciviousXXX

TU09 said:


> Without addressing individual vendors, what is known to be _correct _at this point? Does this now apply to other regions? With all due respect, if there is some reason this info should not be posted, please let me know because as long as no vendors or customers are named, I don't see how it could be a problem.
> 
> My apologies to Gargamel for passing along apperantly incorrect or incomplete info.


There are multiple reasons why responses are so vague from many members. Like I said, at this point, very little information is available openly.

My best advice is listed at the top of the page.


----------



## Dgar

Gargamel said:


> Anyone? Is this just an HK problem? I kinda need to know.


From a source I consider reliable, this is not just a HK issue... Spain, UK...maybe others
Just what I heard.

I'm not going back to re-read this entire post(Too Long) so this may have been discussed already, but from what I understand one should make sure that the Credit Card companys that process orders for the vendors are not owned or affliated with any US bank or company.

There are payment options available other than credit cards, all can be traced but Credit Cards seem to be the easiest, especially if the Credit Card companys are American and the US govt puts a little heat on them, they will sing like a bird.


----------



## punch

Gargamel said:


> Anyone? Is this just an HK problem? I kinda need to know.


You mean Heckler and Koch sell Cuban cigars, too?


----------



## ResIpsa

LasciviousXXX said:


> There are multiple reasons why responses are so vague from many members. Like I said, at this point, very little information is available openly.
> 
> My best advice is listed at the top of the page.





LasciviousXXX said:


> Incorrect information at this point.
> 
> Let's not start dragging vendors into this though, that will get the thread closed I'm sure.


Dustin is exactly on point here. Some of the information is out there on a need to know basis for a reason. IF you get the letter it is made clear in the letter what you are suspected of having done. At that point you have your answer as to what the source of their information may have been, at least in a general way.

For people to start gossiping about certain vendors in certain countries isn't going to get anyone anywhere and can do a great deal of harm to innocent parties (vendors). The people who got the letter know what they are dealing with, and for those who didn't get the letter, you know to be vigilant and have a plan in mind should you receive it.:2


----------



## JCK

Yes 

HK USP smokes in 

RS: 40 Length: 4.25 and 3.58


----------



## bonggoy

I highly suggest locking this thread. Majority of the informations posted in here are either speculations and/or not a first hand information.

Dustin has a couple of good suggestions. 
- Lay low 
- If you received the letter, contact a lawyer. 

If you need further information, PM a FOG.


----------



## LasciviousXXX

Not 100% sure I want to lock it just yet but I'll let the MOD's of this Forum decide on that.

While I agree that a lot of things are just speculation, a general awareness by the members of CS is a good thing. People need to pay attention to the important things and remember that there are risks invovled should you choose to ignore the law.

As of right now, no specific vendors are mentioned and I don't think that will be a problem with the caliber of members we have here on CS so closing it would be premature at this point. I'm sure if there's any pertinent information as to the update of this topic it will be posted here.


----------



## croatan

bonggoy said:


> I highly suggest locking this thread.


I don't think that's warranted at this point. As long as it isn't full of misinformation or unwarranted specific vendor attacks, I don't see the problem.



> Majority of the informations posted in here are either speculations and/or not a first hand information.


Welcome to the internet. Personally, I think it's good for people to know what's going on and the possible consequences of their actions.



> Dustin has a couple of good suggestions.
> - Lay low
> - If you received the letter, contact a lawyer.


I agree wholeheartedly.


----------



## jgros001

I would hope that this thread is not locked down. A lot of good information has been posted in the past 2 days...a draft letter was posted and opinions followed - I think that is a good thing. Plus, it provides a place for further questions, should they arise.


----------



## LSUTIGER

I am surprised nobody has posted the letter to send to OFAC if you receive a letter. It was posted on another board a couple days ago. The OP says to use as you like but consult your attorney first:



> U.S. Department of the Treasury
> Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC)
> Attn: Mr./Ms. ______________________
> 1500 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W. (Annex)
> Washington, D.C. 20220
> FAX: 202 622-0447
> 
> Re: [INSERT YOUR NAME] (FAC #CU-[INSERT "CU" NUMBER FROM OFAC LETTER TO YOU])
> 
> Dear Mr./Ms. _______________________:
> 
> This letter is in response to your "Requirement to Furnish Information" letter to me, dated [INSERT DATE OF OFAC LETTER TO YOU] and received by me [INSERT DATE YOU ACTUALLY RECEIVED THE LETTER]. For the reasons stated below, I respectfully decline to respond.
> 
> OFAC's regulations of transactions relating to Cuban goods, and OFAC's demand for information pursuant to such regulations are a violation of the rights of U.S. citizens as guaranteed by the First and Fifth Amendments to the Constitution of the United States.
> 
> Furthermore, OFAC's regulations and OFAC's demand for information pursuant to such regulations constitute discriminatory enforcement of the laws on the basis of national origin and political viewpoint, in violation of the First and Fifth Amendments to the Constitution of the United States. The imposition of any penalties is also discriminatory. Such conduct is arbitrary and capricious and in violation of the Administrative Procedure Act. In this respect, it is noted that substantial numbers of Americans, including elected officials, purchase and possess Cuban goods with the knowledge of OFAC, in apparent violation of the Cuban Assets Control Regulations, but without consequence.
> 
> Furthermore, with respect to any further communication, I assert my privilege against self-incrimination under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States.
> 
> Sincerely


admin please remove if inappropriate


----------



## croatan

As I've stated elsewhere, I'm not sure the "I respectfully decline to respond" line is a good one. I think there's a possibility that it could be interpreted as a failure to respond, which is punishable by substantial civil fines. Personally, I'd be slightly more comfortable saying something along the lines of "I have no documents responsive to your request" and then maybe mention your refusal to incriminate yourself on fifth amendment grounds. 

Touchy subject. If you get one of the letters, talk to a lawyer who knows something about this area of law (this post isn't legal advice and doesn't count and I don't know jack, by the way). Don't rely on anything you read on the internet--this is a complicated area and there's too much at stake.


----------



## Ermo

The Patriot Act makes all they have done legal. You have the 5th but there are civil penalties that go with it. There is no one-size fits all, a lawyer is necessary.


----------



## jgros001

Ermo said:


> The Patriot Act makes all they have done legal. You have the 5th but there are civil penalties that go with it. There is no one-size fits all, a lawyer is necessary.


A lawyer is definitely necessary. However, just because the regulations state that they can still fine for civil penalties does not mean those fines would stand up in court. I certainly do not want to see any of this happen to anyone - but, on the other hand, I would love to see this played out in front of a judge.

James, do you know if a citizen has taken the government to court on this? I would assume not since the regulations have not changed.


----------



## croatan

jgros001 said:


> James, do you know if a citizen has taken the government to court on this? I would assume not since the regulations have not changed.


 Not to my knowledge. You know anyone who wants to be a guinea pig? 
I would be curious to see how it plays out, as well. Some interesting arguments could certainly be made.


----------



## jgros001

croatan said:


> You know anyone who wants to be a guinea pig?
> I would be curious to see how it plays out, as well. Some interesting arguments could certainly be made.


No, I don't know of anyone. But think it would need to be someone with deep pockets or having a lawyer that wants to really make a mark or getting a group like the ACLU to take it on because I could really see a case like this going all the way to the Supreme Court.


----------



## croatan

jgros001 said:


> No, I don't know of anyone. But think it would need to be someone with deep pockets or having a lawyer that wants to really make a mark or getting a group like the ACLU to take it on because I could really see a case like this going all the way to the Supreme Court.


Yeah, that's the problem. Who wants to pay the legal bills when it's so much cheaper to settle. It would probably take a group like the ACLU.


----------



## ResIpsa

As James has previously said, please do not take anything I state here as legal advice. However, as I previously stated, I don't believe sending these letters *as they are written* is a good idea, for a number of reasons, including the following:

In the letter above the following statement is made:

"Furthermore, OFAC's regulations and OFAC's demand for information pursuant to such regulations constitute discriminatory enforcement of the laws on the basis of national origin and political viewpoint, in violation of the First and Fifth Amendments to the Constitution of the United States. The imposition of any penalties is also discriminatory."

The problem is that neither the 1st amendment

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. "

nor the 5th amendment

"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."

has *anything* to do with discriminatory enforcement of the law on the basis of national origin or political viewpoint. I don't know who wrote this proposed letter, but when you include false information like that it makes you look ridiculous, and gives the impression that you are not to be taken seriously. Additionally, information disclosed in any letter you send may compromise your ability to mount an effective defense in the future.

Folks, please contact a lawyer if you get the letter, and don't try to play "jailhouse lawyer" You will only make things worse for yourself.


----------



## j6ppc

Been said before but bears repeating: If you should get a letter then seek counsel.


----------



## zonedar

j6ppc said:


> Been said before but bears repeating: If you should get a letter then seek counsel.


 I agree with the above statement. However, Are these being sent via registered mail? if the letters are not sent registered mail or some other way that requires you sign a receipt of delivery, how would they know that you even recieved it.

Seems like one should contact an attorney, talk in hypotheticals, then shread the letter if it was only delivered via first class post. I certainly wouldn't respond to it without benifit of counsel.

-Steve


----------



## croatan

zonedar said:


> I agree with the above statement. However, Are these being sent via registered mail? if the letters are not sent registered mail or some other way that requires you sign a receipt of delivery, how would they know that you even recieved it.
> 
> Seems like one should contact an attorney, talk in hypotheticals, then shread the letter if it was only delivered via first class post. I certainly wouldn't respond to it without benifit of counsel.
> 
> -Steve


They are sent certified.


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## zonedar

Fair enough.


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