# What the Hell? Wada we gotta do?



## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

Hey guys,

Just recently the Mod Team received YET ANOTHER complaint about a member PM'ing for sources. This is so frustrating.

I don't know how many times and in how many places it's been stated that ya don't PM another member about sources whom you don't know *well *and never PM anyone until you've done your own homework! Croikey!

As a result, the offending member has lost his access to the Habanos forum and a further offense will get him permanently banned. We hate doing this, but we've been left with no other alternative.

I don't know what we have to do to get members with fresh access to this forum to read the damn rules and familiarize themselves with how things work here, BEFORE they post a single syllable and especially start PM'ing veterans about Cuban cigars. Additionally, I am very uncomfortable about even making reference to discussing Cuban cigars in PM, but something has GOT to be done.

I've seriously considered castration by Sawzall, but short of that, I'm without resources.


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## CALIFORNIA KID (Nov 21, 2010)

what is there was a "you must read this thread and post in it before you are able to post in any other thread" thread


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## Habano (Jul 5, 2010)

"*What the Hell? Wada we gotta do?*" Simple.

1. Implement the 500 posts and 6 month limitation before new members can access the Habano forum.

2. If the mods do not want to implement the 500 posts and six month limitation, then stick with the current 3 months and 100 posts, BUT for the first three months of access to the Habano forum, they cannot post and can only read the forums.

3. Upon entering the Habano forum for the first time, all you can see or read are the RULES to the Habano forum and at the bottom there is a "I consent to agree..." box you must check stating you have read the rules to the forum and you abide by the rules. Furthermore, you are also agreeing that you understand that IF you break the rules you can lose access to the Habano forum forever.

I know this is easier said then done, but it can be done as I've used the V Bulletin software for years and works wonders when setup and in place.


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## David_ESM (May 11, 2011)

I know this is a serious topic... But I couldn't help myself.


Herf N Turf said:


> I've seriously considered castration by Sawzall


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## CeeGar (Feb 19, 2007)

Wow. This is just absolutely amazing. After everything that has been said about this very subject right here on the habanos forum. This is proof positive that they are not reading anything or they are a complete dumba$$...or both!


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## xobrian (Mar 29, 2011)

Make them take a 10 question quiz based on the rules before they can gain access


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## szyzk (Nov 27, 2010)

bbergeson said:


> Make them take a 10 question quiz based on the rules before they can gain access


I love that solution. Make them read the rules then give them a multiple choice test before they can enter. There's no way to get around simply agreeing to something, then, and there's no way to not understand the etiquette that is being asked of the members.


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## quo155 (Aug 10, 2010)

Just my opinion...as I think there are only two ways to solve this...

_...as, Idiots will be idiots_...

*1.)* So, you give them a PM warning and infraction. You temp. ban them from the Habanos section for 30 days and then it can resume thereafter.

If they break this rule a second time, then they are banned from Puff indefinitely.

Put this in the rules too...then done.

_However, I have a feeling that this will be a fight we will all have to deal with forever...as many do not read the rules AND there are new Puffers daily..._

*2.)* I love the multiple choice test idea mentioned here!


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## lgomez (Aug 9, 2009)

bbergeson said:


> Make them take a 10 question quiz based on the rules before they can gain access


^^ THIS!!!


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## CALIFORNIA KID (Nov 21, 2010)

bbergeson said:


> Make them take a 10 question quiz based on the rules before they can gain access


I like this idea

You could also do what is a "teaching quiz".

You make all the answers to the true false quiz true and then ask questions like

I can not post about Cuban cigar retailers.

I can not use puff to sell or buy cuban cigars.

It is not ok to PM other members about places to buy Cuban cigars.

And so on.

The goal is so that even if they don't read the rules the rules are all stated in the quiz


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## Oldmso54 (Jul 31, 2010)

When Tony B brought this up I thought that having access BUT not being able to post was a very good idea because it would give you a chance to see what the forum is all about.

But after seeing Davids suggestion of: "...*all you can see or read are the RULES to the Habano forum* and at the bottom there is a "I consent to agree..." box you must check stating you have read the rules to the forum and you abide by the rules. Furthermore, you are also agreeing that you understand that IF you break the rules you can lose access to the Habano forum...". I think that would be viable - and leave it that way for 30 days.

Ultimately there probably is no 100% foolproof way of preventing the problem but I applaud the BOTL who reported it to the mods. That's a tough thing to do but it is the RIGHT thing to do and if everyone did that it might have more clout than reading rules.

It's a complex issue and many good suggestions have been offered. Don and the rest of the mods, I applaud you all for your conscientous and objective approach to this.


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

_Nice work Mod team Follow the rules or lose access i like that!!!!!!!!!!_


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## Cigary (Oct 19, 2007)

I like the idea of making anyone who is a part of this section just sign off saying they will read the rules and follow them and if they don't they get booted. Don't have to make this all long and involved with them taking tests and such...keep it simple as in order for new members to access the forum they must sign in and understand the policy. This won't be the last time as we all know...they like to come in and ask what they think is "innocent" like the last douchebag when I PM'd him...and we see he hasn't returned. So much for acting 'innocent.'


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## fivespdcat (Nov 16, 2010)

I don't think this is ever going to stop, there are just some people that come on here to gain access to the forums and find sources. After they get it, they would be gone, since they don't get them they're gone too. The kind of person that would PM another member they don't know asking them stupid questions is neither the kind of person that we want nor the kind of person that is going to stick around on Puff very long. They are generally self absorbed, lack any type of ability to reflect upon themselves and understand how their actions make them look. I wish there was a simple answer, but I don't think there is. With that being said the longer wait time is probably the way to weed out even more of the people that are just here for one thing...


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## Tritones (Jun 23, 2010)

Starbuck said:


> "*What the Hell? Wada we gotta do?*" Simple.
> 
> 1. Implement the 500 posts and 6 month limitation before new members can access the Habano forum.
> 
> ...


:amen:

This sounds good.


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## Blaylock-cl (Apr 28, 2006)

Just an FYI for anyone reading this. The current "penalty" for PMing another member for sources, when it's reported to the Mod. Team, is as follows:

-Infraction: 3 points
-Duration: 3 months
-Loss of all Level 2 priviledges (which include loss of access to the Habanos Forum).
-Can make a request to have Level 2 priviledges re-instated, but only after the infraction expires.
-Any similar violations of the rules may result in a permanent ban from Puff.


That's what you face for not taking just a few minutes to read a few simple rules.


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## ShortFuse (Jun 6, 2011)

Or we can start waterboarding. I know some bad dudes that do worse things to nastier people. 

I agree with the acknowledgement thread. Acknowledge that you have read the rules, post something about yourself and your experience with CCs, let people get to know something about you and then you can be on your way. 

With this being a privledged part of the forum, maybe we make the temporary ban another 90 days? I just dont know if this will even put a dent in the way people behave. The having access to read and not post in the Habanos section doesn't mean a user will read the stickies. I mean, I read them and there was some stuff that was a little too far over my head and I didn't fully understand. I have read some other normal threads in the section and will go back to them and parts make more sense now. Like with the seals and box dates and all the checks and balances to make sure you have a legit product. Without some pictures, I was lost. I read the Shawns thread, and now seeing the pictures and the product. It makes sense. 

From a NOOB perspective, there is just a ton of new information here and thats why I haven't posted a lot over here. I'm still trying to understand somethings before I post. I dont want to sound completely foolish and more importantly I dont want to post something that is going to raise an alarm. 

Tests, quizzes, temp bans, longer wait times are all great ideas. None of them fix the underlying issue that some people just dont have the respect and maturity that is necessary for some topics. I know the Mods do excellent work and are rarely thanked for it. There are some instances that I would not want the stress that comes with keeping Puff running smoothly. If we see something that is uncalled for or out of line. Tell the person they jacked up and that you are reporting their post. The Mods will do what is right no matter if it was a FOG or a NOOB that messed up. 

Thanks for looking at it from my foxhole.


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## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

Blaylock said:


> That's what you face for not taking just a few minutes to read a few simple rules.


Indeed.

It's sad it's had to come to this, but it's not as though we've not been forced.

The trouble with requiring an agreement in the form of a tick box, is that most are dumbed-down by having installed so many software programs and updates. My guess is no one ever reads the stuff, but simply tick the box and move on.

I've seen protocols, which force a specific amount of time before the box can be ticked and the continue option appears. That might help, but at the end of the day, "you can take a horse to water, but you can't make him drink". In this case, I think it'd be appropriate to replace "horse" with jackass.

Edit: Thom provokes an interesting idea. Maybe we disable copy / paste in the rules, install a "New Habanos Puffer" forum and require them to type the Rules in their intro. Kind of like in elementary school when the teacher made you stay after to write, "I will stop shooting spitballs at Mrs Hooterski" a thousand times on the blackboard.


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## StogieNinja (Jul 29, 2009)

ShortFuse said:


> From a NOOB perspective, there is just a ton of new information here and thats why I haven't posted a lot over here. I'm still trying to understand somethings before I post. I dont want to sound completely foolish and more importantly I dont want to post something that is going to raise an alarm.


Ditto that.



Herf N Turf said:


> The trouble with requiring an agreement in the form of a tick box, is that most are dumbed-down by having installed so many software programs and updates. My guess is no one ever reads the stuff, but simply tick the box and move on.


That's why some sort of quiz which you have to get right would work very well.


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## Tarks (Mar 3, 2009)

I hate to see other members calling noob members idiots. It just isn't right. We have all been in their shoes at one time or another. 

Having said that, the problem probably sits with communication. We need to figure out a way to ensure that all Habanos noobs are aware of the rules and the penalties for breaking the rules. For us more senior guys, it is up to us to ensure that the rules are followed. I don't get upset when someone PMs me asking for sources. I handle these cases individually and use common sense when dealing with them. Pointing them in the right direction goes a long ways. 

We are all here for the same reasons. To learn from each other and to enjoy each others company. We must remember this.


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## bigslowrock (May 9, 2010)

make the rules post title a little more "eye catching"?

or fine people their first box of cigars


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## CeeGar (Feb 19, 2007)

Tarks said:


> I hate to see other members calling noob members idiots. It just isn't right. We have all been in their shoes at one time or another.
> 
> Having said that, the problem probably sits with communication. We need to figure out a way to ensure that all Habanos noobs are aware of the rules and the penalties for breaking the rules. For us more senior guys, it is up to us to ensure that the rules are followed. I don't get upset when someone PMs me asking for sources. I handle these cases individually and use common sense when dealing with them. Pointing them in the right direction goes a long ways.
> 
> We are all here for the same reasons. To learn from each other and to enjoy each others company. We must remember this.


Jeff, I believe you are right. I might have been a little heavy handed in my post. It takes quite a bit to ruffle my feathers. It just seems to be a constant issue these days. It has become a bit frustrating for many of us. I'll also agree that we were all noobs at one time and possibly screwing up...but, I can also say that I never have PM'd someone asking for a source. If the rules have been read, they will know not to do this. That is the issue at hand. Just read and adhere to the rules. Thanks for your post, Jeff. It did remind me that cooler heads always prevail.


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## Tarks (Mar 3, 2009)

CeeGar said:


> Jeff, I believe you are right. I might have been a little heavy handed in my post. It takes quite a bit to ruffle my feathers. It just seems to be a constant issue these days. It has become a bit frustrating for many of us. I'll also agree that we were all noobs at one time and possibly screwing up...but, I can also say that I never have PM'd someone asking for a source. If the rules have been read, they will know not to do this. That is the issue at hand. Just read and adhere to the rules. Thanks for your post, Jeff. It did remind me that cooler heads always prevail.


Sorry Colin. I really did not mean to pick on anyone with my post. I just wanted to make a point. Thanks for not jumping all over me.


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

Blaylock said:


> Just an FYI for anyone reading this. The current "penalty" for PMing another member for sources, when it's reported to the Mod. Team, is as follows:
> 
> -Infraction: 3 points
> -Duration: 3 months
> ...


What no castration! :lever:

All joking aside i like it Dave thanks for laying down the law!:amen:


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

CeeGar said:


> Jeff, I believe you are right. I might have been a little heavy handed in my post. It takes quite a bit to ruffle my feathers. It just seems to be a constant issue these days. It has become a bit frustrating for many of us. I'll also agree that we were all noobs at one time and possibly screwing up...but, I can also say that I never have PM'd someone asking for a source. If the rules have been read, they will know not to do this. That is the issue at hand. Just read and adhere to the rules. Thanks for your post, Jeff. It did remind me that cooler heads always prevail.





Tarks said:


> Sorry Colin. I really did not mean to pick on anyone with my post. I just wanted to make a point. Thanks for not jumping all over me.


Jeff i know you a long time Colin i just became very good friends with recently! What you guys just demonstrated is what great BOTL you are! And how lucky i am to call you my friends!


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## CeeGar (Feb 19, 2007)

Tarks said:


> Sorry Colin. I really did not mean to pick on anyone with my post. I just wanted to make a point. Thanks for not jumping all over me.


Jeff, you made me stop and think. Sometimes it's good to do that..lol. :mrgreen:


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## CeeGar (Feb 19, 2007)

TonyBrooklyn said:


> Jeff i know you a long time Colin i just became very good friends with recently! What you guys just demonstrated is what great BOTL you are! And how lucky i am to call you my friends![/QUOT
> 
> Ditto, brother :smoke:


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## Tritones (Jun 23, 2010)

bigslowrock said:


> make the rules post title a little more "eye catching"?


What do you have in mind - a video of Habana Jaen reading the rules?

Sorry - chose not to resist. :spank:

Maybe there's nothing to do but continue to handle each case as it comes up, whether by gently steering someone in the right direction, or applying disciplinary action.

I totally get Tony's frustration and Jeff's patience. It's too bad either one has to be exercised, when a simple reading of the rules would take care of things.

I just looked at the rules sticky again. Damn it, it just isn't that hard to read far enough to see the no PMing for sources rule. I dunno - maybe move it closer to the top?


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## shuckins (Jun 24, 2009)

there's no getting around it,people are always going to break the rules.
what ya gotta do is simple.
enforce the rules!
afterall,that's why the punishments were put in place...


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## Rock31 (Sep 30, 2010)

you have to be strict! I like what you have done with this member, if people start getting the BANHAMMER dropped on them things will change quickly.


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## bigslowrock (May 9, 2010)

Tritones said:


> What do you have in mind - a video of Habana Jaen reading the rules?
> 
> Sorry - chose not to resist. :spank:


after returning for googling for those pics 

I don't know. If I was new, just doesn't seem like the first thing that I would look. Maybe through a READ THESE FIRST or something stupid like that.

then if they do it, punt them.


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## harley33 (Mar 27, 2009)

I think that it's a little of setting expectations (FOGs) and common sense (Noobs).

When you get access to this forum as a noob, you think that you have found the holy land, all the information that you would ever want. That is not the case. You get all the pretty pictures, reviews, suggestions and the current purchases, but not the sources. That is it. I know that many moons ago when I got access, I assumed that sources would be available, left and right.

This is old information, but you need to make yourself known by quality posts and not quantity.

As far as the method to allow entrance, I am not sure that having members click a check box is the answer. How many times do you accept the terms when you install software on your computer and don't read the verbiage?


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

You know guys i help people all the time as you guys do as well! But when someone who no one knows wants the golden key to the crapper . I think we all have a problem with that! If i am to be used it shall be by a beautiful female of my choice! Not a maggot on a cigar forum!:smoke:


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## Zogg (Aug 31, 2010)

Starbuck said:


> "*What the Hell? Wada we gotta do?*" Simple.
> 
> 1. Implement the 500 posts and 6 month limitation before new members can access the Habano forum.
> 
> ...


I see #3 on many forums and it works wonders


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## smelvis (Sep 7, 2009)

I have had quite a few requests like Jeff said I treated them all differently. a couple I reported as they were outright rude almost demanding a couple were people I like but have not had enough interaction with me to actually be called friends but working towards it so I simply told them politely I am suppose to report you for this, That got me an apology and I believed them and think and have seen them grow since so I made the right call.
Others are friends who can ask me anything they want I think the difference here is have we really known each other long enough and interacted enough for such conversations, If you don't know for sure then don't.

No easy answer I wish there was. So far it looks from what I see that we have done what we can as members, we can post links to this thread everywhere in our own posts, that may help a little.


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## ignite223 (Jan 11, 2009)

First and foremost I want to thank all the MODs for the great job everyone does to keep this forum up and running, and controlling members who get out of line whether it's newbies in the Habano forum or out spoken a$$e$ in the general forums. You all have a tough job and I thank you for enforcing the rules.

That said, you cannot stop people from doing dumb things occasionally. I have seen people I work with daily, walk past signs that plainly state no photography equipment in this facility and pull out cameras and get upset when they are confiscated. I think all you can do is post the rules and then enforce them. Don't try to rebuild the world for a few poor souls that didn't read the rules. Someone mentioned it earlier, a few people get banned or restricted and that would stop a lot of this. Maybe even create a thread in the general section each time descipline is issued to remind everyone sbout the rules....of course I am thinking this doesn't happen every day, and I could be wrong.


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## smelvis (Sep 7, 2009)

If that is so this would have been a lot longer thread. I appreciate all the free work!

http://www.cigarforums.net/forums/vb/cigar-bombs/288850-any-interest-bomb-mod-admin-month.html

That said the rules work but many sound idea's here, I do think changing then is worth a shot if you all think it's necessary! It hasn't bothered me that much (at least I get over it quick) even though I got quite a few.


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## Habano (Jul 5, 2010)

Zogg said:


> I see #3 on many forums and it works wonders


Like I said earlier, this is a SIMPLE fix. It's just a matter of taking the time to fix the problem. Obviously the system that is in place now is not working. Otherwise we wouldn't continue to see the issues we are seeing and posts every other week about new guys coming into the Habano forum and breaking the rules.

I know part of the problem is that the mods have their hands tied as to what they can do as far as forum settings. If that is the case, then the forum software needs to be upgraded. Honestly, it's not that hard to install/add the features they need to put an end to the problem we have on the Habano side. Worse case Puff is offline for four to six hours late Sunday night while the software is upgraded to the latest and greatest. V Bulletin is a powerful forum application that really does not have any limitations. It's basically getting someone to do it and someone who knows what they are doing.

In the end, it all boils down to how bad do you want to fix the problem. If it's truly an issue, then the site will do what it needs to do to put the features in place for the Habano forum and etc. I really believe if you change the requirement to six months with 500 posts, a warning page that needs to be read upon entering the Habano forum for the first time, as well as a strict policy in place for when you break the rules, a lot, if not all your issues will be fixed. As for the punishment when you break the rules, first offense you are suspended for 30 days. Second offense you are suspended for six months. The third and final time you are gone for good.


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## Casey Jones (May 13, 2011)

Not all of us noobs do this. I think idiots are going to be idiots regardless of how many posts or months they have to put in.

I'm sure some new people get access to this side of the forum with the expectation that sources are going to be in the stickys.

I think punishing the offenders without restricting access to all of us noobs is the way to go. I read A LOT more than I post... You guys know how long it would take me to get to 500 posts?!?


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## Habano (Jul 5, 2010)

Casey Jones said:


> Not all of us noobs do this. I think idiots are going to be idiots regardless of how many posts or months they have to put in.
> 
> I'm sure some new people get access to this side of the forum with the expectation that sources are going to be in the stickys.
> 
> I think punishing the offenders without restricting access to all of us noobs is the way to go. I read A LOT more than I post... You guys know how long it would take me to get to 500 posts?!?


The rules I have proposed would not apply to the members that have access now. If you have access to the Habano forum now, you would be automatically grandfathered into the new rules and would not be required to put in additional time and requirements.

Sure you will always have that guy break the rules, thus my reason for a strict punishment, 30 days, six months, ban. Simple. The first time you break a rule you probably didn't mean to or slipped. So you got a slap on the wrist and learned your lesson. Second time it happens, well you better pay attention to what you are doing the next time because then you will be banned.

Sure maybe 500 posts is a little extreme. You could always back it down to say 250 posts. Honestly I like that number better than 500 posts. A fair requirement is six months here at Puff and 250 posts. I believe 250 posts within six months is very doable and gives the veteran members an idea as to why you are here and what kind of guy you are coming across as. Obviously a member that has 250 posts and is still around after six months is here for more than likely good reasons.

Again, back to my original statement, how bad does Puff really want to put controls in place to minimize the issues we are seeing? If it's that big of an issue or problem for the mods to clean up, then Puff will do what it takes or needs to clean it up.


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## Dizzy (Mar 19, 2011)

I'm a Noob to this side of the forum and CC's in general, but people disregarding these rules upsets even me.

While a "Consent button" could work, is there any additional way to lock the forum until an individual has read ALL of the stickies? I know that if you haven't read a thread, it will show black, so there has to be something in place that keeps track of these types of things. After all of the threads are read, then implement the quiz and/or consent form. Just my .02...

If the decision is to extend the posts and time on Puff, I will humbly bow and wait my turn. But, there are still some people out there that abide by the rules.


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## Habano (Jul 5, 2010)

Dizzy said:


> I'm a Noob to this side of the forum and CC's in general, but people disregarding these rules upsets even me.
> 
> While a "Consent button" could work, *is there any additional way to lock the forum until an individual has read ALL of the stickies?* *YES!* I know that if you haven't read a thread, it will show black, so there has to be something in place that keeps track of these types of things. After all of the threads are read, then implement the quiz and/or consent form. Just my .02...
> 
> If the decision is to extend the posts and time on Puff, I will humbly bow and wait my turn. But, there are still some people out there that abide by the rules.


Since you've already met the requirements to access the Habano forum, you would not be required to meet the new requirements. It would and should only be applied to members that do not have access the day after the new rules are put into place and going forward.


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## tpharkman (Feb 20, 2010)

The simple and logical conclusion that has already been mentioned is to enforce the rules we already have in place. If we don't enforce the rules already on the books, then this well lead us to write more rules and then we start to reflect a very broken system of government. You don't have to look very far in society to see what kind of wart this can be on the human condition. 

Writing rules to correct other rules that have not been enforced is like continuing to use a clogged toilet thinking the more you fill it up the sooner it will become unplugged.

If we enforce the rules we have then there would no longer be any necessity for threads such as this one. If we continue to let the offenders get away with breaking the rules then we are going to continue to see more and more threads like this one and less threads discussing the wonderful world of habanos. I know which I prefer to read.


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## quo155 (Aug 10, 2010)

Tarks said:


> I hate to see other members calling noob members idiots. It just isn't right. We have all been in their shoes at one time or another.
> 
> Having said that, the problem probably sits with communication. We need to figure out a way to ensure that all Habanos noobs are aware of the rules and the penalties for breaking the rules. For us more senior guys, it is up to us to ensure that the rules are followed. I don't get upset when someone PMs me asking for sources. I handle these cases individually and use common sense when dealing with them. Pointing them in the right direction goes a long ways.
> 
> We are all here for the same reasons. To learn from each other and to enjoy each others company. We must remember this.


Hey Jeff, I am truly sorry brother. I thought about saying this in a PM to you, but I felt I should do it publicly since I said "idiot" twice in my first post here.

I was not trying to call newbies "idiots", as I consider myself quiet the CC newb. I was just upset about this particular event. I was just frustrated...but I have made my fair share of them here on Puff...and I've read the rules! So, please know this was about this recurring issue only...and brother, I am sorry of I upset or offended you...or anyone else for that matter...as Puff is something I look forward to hourly...and I appreciate each BOTL here!

Back to topic, after reading through all of this...it looks like the rules in place are fine, people will do what they do, we just have to do our part by reporting what we see is in error (I like how smelvis deals with it) and let the mods enforce it.

Great stuff!


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## Perfecto Dave (Nov 24, 2009)

> I like the idea of making anyone who is a part of this section just sign off saying they will read the rules and follow them and if they don't they get booted.


Seems pretty simple to me. If people know there are is -0- tolerance maybe they will respond differently.
Read the rules...abide by them or you will never be on the return list.


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## tobacmon (May 17, 2007)

Starbuck said:


> "*What the Hell? Wada we gotta do?*" Simple.
> 
> *1. Implement the 500 posts and 6 month limitation before new members can access the Habano forum.*
> 
> ...


*
I think this is the least we can implement-*-reason being I had to be a member for over 3 years with well over 7500 post to join. That was only because we just stated this part of the forum but still feel nothing is working evidently and hope your suggestion will. *I also think their ring Gauge should be substantial.*

my 2c.


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## havanajohn (Apr 4, 2009)

smelvis said:


> I have had quite a few requests like Jeff said I treated them all differently. a couple I reported as they were outright rude almost demanding a couple were people I like but have not had enough interaction with me to actually be called friends but working towards it so I simply told them politely I am suppose to report you for this, That got me an apology and I believed them and think and have seen them grow since so I made the right call.
> Others are friends who can ask me anything they want I think the difference here is have we really known each other long enough and interacted enough for such conversations, If you don't know for sure then don't.
> 
> No easy answer I wish there was. So far it looks from what I see that we have done what we can as members, we can post links to this thread everywhere in our own posts, that may help a little.


I think Dave has the answer to this issue. I too have had requests from members that I don't even know expecting me to divulge sources, and other P.M.'s from members that I have interacted with, and have obviously done their homework in regard to sources. Depending on who (whom) it is they receive a warning from me or a dialogue will be started.
I feel as Dave does we as members are the people that can remind the offending members that this is against the rules., and we can head this off before a Mod needs to get involved. If the offending member persists then reporting to a Mod is the next step.
Putting in place more "rules", or requiring more posts or time on Puff in my opinion will not stop the problem. What it does is make members that are diligent in their searches, and possess a desire to enter the Habanos world in the proper way more difficult. There are a percentage of people that despite any rules or threats of Banning will still do it. There is no reason to handicap the members that follow the proper route.


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## asmartbull (Aug 16, 2009)

As always, a lot of great ideas come from this community.
I tend to look at things at their simplest component.

There are Noobs that follow the rules ( most due)

There are those that don't read the rules regardless of how long they have been here, post count, RG ( Only a Few)

There are those that will think the rules don't really apply,and what could a lite-hearted PM hurt. ( only a few)

If you take a look at how many come through here a week, our problem
isn't huge. It just gets a lot of attention when it happens.The guys that get most upset are the FOGs, who see this as their home. I am confident that at some point, criteria will change. For the time being, we should police ourself and enforce the rules we have. 

The only problem I have with lengthening the wait time and post count, is that there are SEVERAL very experienced CC smokers that are new to Puff and I see them as assets when they get privileges..

Thanks for reading...


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## Blaylock-cl (Apr 28, 2006)

My feeling is that the current rules in place are solid...'90 days granted permission to move to Level 2 priviledges (including entrance into the Habanos Forum)'. We've discussed these at length, and they with stay this way for the time being. They're posted in several places and it's the members responsibility to read them. 

The suggestions that members should be the ones to "head this off" and remind people that their requests are not appropriate, is solid advice as well.


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

View Poll Results: Does the 90 day 100 Post Rule still work? Its Fine leave it the way it is! Andrewdk, anyo91, astripp, Barefoot, bboz, bcannon87, BigBehr, bigslowrock, Boudreaux, Cigar Noob, CraigJS, dahu, David_ESM, dmgizzo, fanman1, Frankenstein, FWTX, gasdocok, harley33, jeepersjeep, jimbo1, *joncaputo*, JustOneMoreStick, Kampaigner, kapathy, lebz, lukesparksoff, Mayne Street, Mr_mich, mturnmm, Mutombo, piperdown, primetime76, Rays98GoVols, salmonfly, Scrap, sligub, smelvis, smokinpeace, Son Of Thor, Tan18_01, Tashaz, the nub, thrasher64, tmajer15, WhoDat, Zogg
*47* 50.54% Its not working change it! *asmartbull*, brotherwilliam3, fivespdcat, Hannibal, Johnny Rock, KcJason1, Oldmso54, Perfecto Dave, ptpablo, quo155, szyzk, teedles915
*12* 12.90% Rules we don't need no stinking rules! CBR, Snagged
*2* 2.15% _6 months 500 posts would be better!_ AgentJuggernaut, Aninjaforallseasons, APBTMarcel, bdw1984, BMack, CALIFORNIA KID, Claes, Fatboy501, Frodo, gator_79, *Herf N Turf*, Hinson, karatekyle, LosingSleep, Poneill272, Pugsley, quincy627, Ronjohn, Starbuck, Tarks, thebayratt, titlowda, TonyBrooklyn, usrower321, Vicini, Yamaha53
*26* 27.96% 1 year 1000 posts would be better! ckay, Frinkiac7, *funbags*, K Baz, User Name, Wildone
*6* 6.45% Voters: *93*.

The results from the poll show the community is split! Just as many think it is fine the way it is. As those like myself want it changed. I think the new set of rules Blaylock has posted! And the great job by the Mod team to rid this section of the forum Of the party that could not read or obey rules! Was a step in the right direction. Break the rules pay the price just like life.


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## Habano (Jul 5, 2010)

Aight cool with me. So if someone breaks the rules, let's not create a thread about it every time and scream "cry" when it happens. If we are going to keep the current rules and limitations in place, then there shouldn't be anymore b!tching about it going forward from anyone. Simply report the issue and be done with it.

I'm not trying to come across as being harsh or an @ss about it, but I hate when I /we see there is a problem, people complain about the problem, yet we don't do anything to remove the problem. All we are doing is "talking" about the problem rather than taking action to resolve the problem. Sorry, I guess this comes from IT and Audit nature side of what I do. People come to me with an issue or problem, I try and fix it for them, they don't want to make the change, ok fine then, do not come back to me again with this issue or crying about your issue. I just like to be done with it so going forward we can eliminate any issues moving forward.

I also want to add that the reason why I am being a little snippy is because several of the FOG's have threatened to leave because of these issues and when I see it continuing, it makes me think they are getting even more pissed. I enjoy being in the presence of the FOG's, I have learned a lot from them, and if they leave because of BS issues that didn't get fixed, then I will be pissed.


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
:dunno::dunno::dunno::dunno::dunno:
Who pissed in your corn flakes this morning David?


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## Habano (Jul 5, 2010)

TonyBrooklyn said:


> ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
> :dunno::dunno::dunno::dunno::dunno:
> Who pissed in your corn flakes this morning David?


Haha all good sir Tony, just expressing a little of my concerns. My last statement is the biggest reason, which I just added after your comment. And I'd consider you to be a part of those FOG's.


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

Starbuck said:


> Haha all good sir Tony, just expressing a little of my concerns. My last statement is the biggest reason, which I just added after your comment. And I'd consider you to be a part of those FOG's.


Okay i have read the addition now it makes sense. I am frustrated as well! Many have voiced their complaints but did not even vote in the poll. That's like complaining about who is in a political office but not voting come election time. All i was trying to say is while we did not really change it. The new rules are stern and are being enforced. That is a good thing!


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## TXsmoker (Sep 6, 2010)

Starbuck said:


> Aight cool with me. So if someone breaks the rules, let's not create a thread about it every time and scream "cry" when it happens. If we are going to keep the current rules and limitations in place, then there shouldn't be anymore b!tching about it going forward from anyone. Simply report the issue and be done with it.
> 
> I'm not trying to come across as being harsh or an @ss about it, but I hate when I /we see there is a problem, people complain about the problem, yet we don't do anything to remove the problem. All we are doing is "talking" about the problem rather than taking action to resolve the problem. Sorry, I guess this comes from IT and Audit nature side of what I do. People come to me with an issue or problem, I try and fix it for them, they don't want to make the change, ok fine then, do not come back to me again with this issue or crying about your issue. I just like to be done with it so going forward we can eliminate any issues moving forward.
> 
> I also want to add that the reason why I am being a little snippy is because several of the FOG's have threatened to leave because of these issues and when I see it continuing, it makes me think they are getting even more pissed. I enjoy being in the presence of the FOG's, I have learned a lot from them, and if they leave because of BS issues that didn't get fixed, then I will be pissed.


David, I thought that people were posting the threads, at least in part, so that the newbs could see what they were causing, and have yet another chance to rethink before they do anything without understanding the rules. I kind of like the idea of an occasional thread that shows up on the active thread list. It more in the open that the stickies for people who only use the "Todays Posts" or "New Posts" search feature. Just my opinion of course, but that does make it clear that the rules arent just some writing that is basicaly ignored. It also lets newbies know that we do stand behind the rules, and expect them to as well.


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## bazookajoe (Nov 2, 2006)

Starbuck said:


> Aight cool with me. So if someone breaks the rules, let's not create a thread about it every time and scream "cry" when it happens. If we are going to keep the current rules and limitations in place, then there shouldn't be anymore b!tching about it going forward from anyone. Simply report the issue and be done with it.
> 
> I'm not trying to come across as being harsh or an @ss about it, but I hate when I /we see there is a problem, people complain about the problem, yet we don't do anything to remove the problem. All we are doing is "talking" about the problem rather than taking action to resolve the problem. Sorry, I guess this comes from IT and Audit nature side of what I do. People come to me with an issue or problem, I try and fix it for them, they don't want to make the change, ok fine then, do not come back to me again with this issue or crying about your issue. I just like to be done with it so going forward we can eliminate any issues moving forward.
> 
> I also want to add that the reason why I am being a little snippy is because several of the FOG's have threatened to leave because of these issues and when I see it continuing, it makes me think they are getting even more pissed. I enjoy being in the presence of the FOG's, I have learned a lot from them, and if they leave because of BS issues that didn't get fixed, then I will be pissed.


These are people we're dealing with here, not technical issues. Not something that can simply be "fixed". As has been said many times above, it's the few bad apples that are the problem. It won't be solved by developing restrictions for the many that are only needed by the few. That isn't right and wouldn't be fair to the majority who are good citizens here. We have rules in place to deal with this stuff and we enforce them. Yeah, there's aggravation along the way but that's life, especially on an internet forum open to all.


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## Tritones (Jun 23, 2010)

Starbuck said:


> Aight cool with me. So if someone breaks the rules, let's not create a thread about it every time and scream "cry" when it happens. If we are going to keep the current rules and limitations in place, then there shouldn't be anymore b!tching about it going forward from anyone. Simply report the issue and be done with it.


This makes sense to me.



TXsmoker said:


> David, I thought that people were posting the threads, at least in part, so that the newbs could see what they were causing, and have yet another chance to rethink before they do anything without understanding the rules. I kind of like the idea of an occasional thread that shows up on the active thread list. It more in the open that the stickies for people who only use the "Todays Posts" or "New Posts" search feature. Just my opinion of course, but that does make it clear that the rules arent just some writing that is basicaly ignored. It also lets newbies know that we do stand behind the rules, and expect them to as well.


So does this.

So I'm back to square one.

Let me half-seriously suggest a weekly thread - posted by a moderator, not allowing any replies - saying how many complaints have been turned over to the mod team, what they involved, and what action was taken. No names need to be mentioned.

Or maybe when someone posts a thread about inappropriate conduct, it gets closed to replies very quickly, so that it can be read by newbs (and everyone else), but doesn't spin into a mess of bellyaching, finger-pointing, and rehashing of stuff that doesn't need to be rehashed.

Of course, that sort of thread will sink off the radar pretty quickly without new posts to bump it along. So maybe everyone who knows how to behave around here should just agree that when a thread like that comes up, any replies will be brief, to the point, courteous, and mainly for the purpose of keeping the thread alive for educational purposes. Anyone who violates that agreement can be respectfully chastised in the thread or by PM for their own edification.


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## Richterscale (Jan 8, 2011)

I know it's a lot of maintenance but the "test" is really not a bad idea if it could be implemented realistically. If nothing else it would reduce the amount of people who fire off posts/PM's just out of ignorance. Some folks are so excited and their asses get bouncing for the habanos forum that they don't bother reading any stickies. It's absolutely inexcusable but I think the "test" would reduce the headache caused by the repeat offenses and would save some people from getting canned just because they were lazy. I'm sure one of the mods wouldn't mind maintaining the "test" and maybe have a once a week review of the testing for people who are up for habanos access that week.


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## Perfecto Dave (Nov 24, 2009)

Certainly a lot to digest every time we have a flare up.
I don't get near as many PM requests as some of the others as I figured out it is generally related to how many intelligent posts one makes.
As law abiding members do we want to put any more stress on the mods more than what they already have as daily duties? As brought up previously, this can be nipped on an individual basis.

If someone PMs you about sources.......you can choose many options.

a) ignore the request like it never happened

b) respond to the request with links about what a douch the requester is being 

c) interact with the requester and school them with your worldly 
knowledge

d) if you chose door "a" and they double request you can ignore them 
again or if you feel necessary send it to the mods for some help

I believe with the clean up in the sticky section that has taken place we look pretty sporty now. I just don't believe changing the length of time/post count, etc. is going to change the attitudes of the new member offenders. Maybe give them a one strike and your out deal....not sure, but the mods can hash over how to deal with offenders/repeat offenders. As far as the first line of defense...we have to be it. We're the ones on the front. I certainly wouldn't want any of my friends that I've met here to leave because they are being bombarded with source requests but if we can't handle the heat I suppose we should remove ourselves from the kitchen.
Let's suck it up, deal with the guys that need schooled ourselves as best as we can and call in the general when needed.

Going out to burn some fancy shmancy cuban leaf and get this Sat. mourning kick started.


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## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

smelvis said:


> I have had quite a few requests like Jeff said I treated them all differently. a couple I reported as they were outright rude almost demanding a couple were people I like but have not had enough interaction with me to actually be called friends but working towards it so I simply told them politely I am suppose to report you for this, That got me an apology and I believed them and think and have seen them grow since so I made the right call.
> Others are friends who can ask me anything they want I think the difference here is have we really known each other long enough and interacted enough for such conversations, If you don't know for sure then don't.
> 
> No easy answer I wish there was. So far it looks from what I see that we have done what we can as members, we can post links to this thread everywhere in our own posts, that may help a little.


Brilliant and exactly how this should be handled, IMO.



Starbuck said:


> Like I said earlier, this is a SIMPLE fix. It's just a matter of taking the time to fix the problem. Obviously the system that is in place now is not working. Otherwise we wouldn't continue to see the issues we are seeing and posts every other week about new guys coming into the Habano forum and breaking the rules.
> 
> I know part of the problem is that the mods have their hands tied as to what they can do as far as forum settings. If that is the case, then the forum software needs to be upgraded. Honestly, it's not that hard to install/add the features they need to put an end to the problem we have on the Habano side. Worse case Puff is offline for four to six hours late Sunday night while the software is upgraded to the latest and greatest. V Bulletin is a powerful forum application that really does not have any limitations. It's basically getting someone to do it and someone who knows what they are doing.
> 
> In the end, it all boils down to how bad do you want to fix the problem. If it's truly an issue, then the site will do what it needs to do to put the features in place for the Habano forum and etc. I really believe if you change the requirement to six months with 500 posts, a warning page that needs to be read upon entering the Habano forum for the first time, as well as a strict policy in place for when you break the rules, a lot, if not all your issues will be fixed. As for the punishment when you break the rules, first offense you are suspended for 30 days. Second offense you are suspended for six months. The third and final time you are gone for good.


David, we are preparing for an update to the newest version of vb. As such, we've wisely declared a moratorium on doing minor upgrades and changes, since it would mean having to go back and redo them all in another month, or so. We may be cruel, but we're not THAT cruel. LOL!



Perfecto Dave said:


> Seems pretty simple to me. If people know there are is -0- tolerance maybe they will respond differently.
> Read the rules...abide by them or you will never be on the return list.


Precisely!

Also, to David and others:

You're correct that my main agenda in starting this thread wasn't to "cry every time things like this happen". Instead, it was to create a thread in the main discussion area that would remain topped for a while and hopefully all current members of the Habanos section would read.

As has been pointed out, almost no new members read Rules and Stickies. It's a sad fact, but a fact nevertheless. No amount of tooling and clicking is going to change peoples laziness and sense of entitlement to just do and act as they please.

As Jeff (Tarks) pointed out, we were all newbs at some point. Hell, there are many aspects of cigar smoking wherein I am still and will remain a newb. What differentiates us however, is how we conduct ourselves on an individual, day to day basis.

Another thing that was pointed out was that "we all make mistakes". In a recent case, an offending member PM'd me and sincerely apologized for his error. He specifically used the words "personal accountability" in his PM. This absolutely floored me. This is a guy who's barely been here 90 days and screwed up almost immediately, but then had the insight and maturity to recognize his mistake and take responsibility for it. This is a guy I would welcome anywhere and likely buy a beer.

In another case, we're dealing with a member who is rife with self-justification and rationalization. He violently protests his superiority and unrighteous indignation. This is a guy who's been here a LOT longer than the above member and is involved in nearly all aspects of Puff. He does a lot of good and on some levels is a valued member. However, he exposes a complete inability to take responsibility for himself and his actions.

To sum up, the issue we face is one of character.


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## Wallbright (Jan 2, 2011)

My words hold no weight here but I always have always held to the idea that you can't fix stupid. People will always be dumb and ask for sources and such. It is my opinion, and my opinion only, that there is really no amount of rules etc. that could ever change that some people are just too dumb/stubborn to follow the rules. Just my two cents though.


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## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

Wallbright said:


> *My words hold no weight here* but I always have always held to the idea that you can't fix stupid. People will always be dumb and ask for sources and such. It is my opinion, and my opinion only, that there is really no amount of rules etc. that could ever change that some people are just too dumb/stubborn to follow the rules. Just my two cents though.


They do now


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## szyzk (Nov 27, 2010)

Starbuck said:


> I also want to add that the reason why I am being a little snippy is because several of the FOG's have threatened to leave because of these issues and when I see it continuing, it makes me think they are getting even more pissed. I enjoy being in the presence of the FOG's, I have learned a lot from them, and if they leave because of BS issues that didn't get fixed, then I will be pissed.


Thank you, David. Very well said.

That right there is what gets me concerned... A noob can go to anyone for information about sources. I can't go to just anyone to ask specific questions about a cigar or a marca.

I need the FOGs to stick around and impart their wisdom, otherwise I'm just treading water (and swimming 90 miles to Cuba is a looooong way to go with no directions).


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## GrEg NiCe (Sep 25, 2009)

Starbuck said:


> I also want to add that the reason why I am being a little snippy is because several of the FOG's have threatened to leave because of these issues and when I see it continuing, it makes me think they are getting even more pissed. I enjoy being in the presence of the FOG's, I have learned a lot from them, and if they leave because of BS issues that didn't get fixed, then I will be pissed.


This being my first post in this section I agree with the above. I have been lurking on this side for a while now but haven't even thought about posting until I feel I have something to add. The only way I can do that is by reading and learning from the FOG's. They are pretty much the reason I love this forum. For newbs like myself to make them want to leave is crazy. I think I should be kicked off before any of them leave.

That being said I don't think changing the rules would do much to stop this problem. Whether they read the rules or not some people are just going to do what they want. I think the best method to curtail this problem is just very strict enforcement to the rules that are currently in place.

I just don't even think I could PM another member that I don't know about something that is illegal. Not to mention why would I expect someone to tell me something that could potentially get them in legal trouble. A little consideration for others is all that is needed.


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## Wallbright (Jan 2, 2011)

Herf N Turf said:


> They do now


Haha well thank you Don. I apologize for all of the "always" in the post. I am sick with a cold and this medicine makes me not able to think straight.


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## Andrewdk (Feb 3, 2011)

Starbuck said:


> "*What the Hell? Wada we gotta do?*" Simple.
> 
> 1. Implement the 500 posts and 6 month limitation before new members can access the Habano forum.
> 
> ...


This is probably one of the best suggestions, at least if people read the rules they should be aware of them, rather then inadvertently breaking the rules in ignorance. However there are always some people who don't feel as if the rules apply to them for whatever reason. I think 6 months 500 posts is a tad drastic, perhaps 6 months 250 posts. Upping the post limit too high might just see a lot of post whoring.


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## Scott W. (Jul 10, 2008)

Herf N Turf said:


> Brilliant and exactly how this should be handled, IMO.
> 
> David, we are preparing for an update to the newest version of vb. As such, we've wisely declared a moratorium on doing minor upgrades and changes, since it would mean having to go back and redo them all in another month, or so. We may be cruel, but we're not THAT cruel. LOL!
> 
> ...


If this is the case, the offenders shouldn't be allowed on the forum period. The thing I have enjoyed most in my last 3 years here is no matter what, dignity, respect and character are constantly displayed, not by everyone and the mod team does a good job of ridding us of them but for the most part, if you cannot exhibit these behaviors (and yes, things are taken out of context or tempers flare but at the end of the day things get hashed out), then outta here you go!


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## smelvis (Sep 7, 2009)

Blaylock said:


> My feeling is that the current rules in place are solid...'90 days granted permission to move to Level 2 priviledges (including entrance into the Habanos Forum)'. We've discussed these at length, and they with stay this way for the time being. They're posted in several places and it's the members responsibility to read them.
> 
> The suggestions that members should be the ones to "head this off" and remind people that their requests are not appropriate, is solid advice as well.


Thanks Dave and everyone who decided this.

I could never be a mod you guy's have it tough at times and I do not have the patience and know it. IMHO this is a great choice!

Thank You and Thank You for allowing us a place to call home Jon! I venture out to other forums I never post much and usually only visit because you all have to go to bed when I am awake  and I am bored.


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## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

smelvis said:


> *I have had quite a few requests like Jeff said I treated them all differently. a couple I reported as they were outright rude almost demanding a couple were people I like but have not had enough interaction with me to actually be called friends but working towards it so I simply told them politely I am suppose to report you for this, That got me an apology and I believed them and think and have seen them grow since so I made the right call.
> Others are friends who can ask me anything they want I think the difference here is have we really known each other long enough and interacted enough for such conversations, If you don't know for sure then don't.*
> 
> No easy answer I wish there was. So far it looks from what I see that we have done what we can as members, we can post links to this thread everywhere in our own posts, that may help a little.





smelvis said:


> Thanks Dave and everyone who decided this.
> 
> I could never be a mod you guy's have it tough at times and I do not have the patience and know it. IMHO this is a great choice!
> 
> Thank You and Thank You for allowing us a place to call home Jon! I venture out to other forums I never post much and usually only visit because you all have to go to bed when I am awake  and I am bored.


Well, Dave, it's pretty much you and your post who've set the standard as to how such things ought to be handled. I don't think anyone could have said it any better. It's about your CONSCIENCE! It's about doing what you feel in your gut is best for Puff and your fellow BOTL.

Again, I, nor anyone else could have said it better.

Just my tuppence.


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## smelvis (Sep 7, 2009)

Herf N Turf said:


> Well, Dave, it's pretty much you and your post who've set the standard as to how such things ought to be handled. I don't think anyone could have said it any better. It's about your CONSCIENCE! It's about doing what you feel in your gut is best for Puff and your fellow BOTL.
> 
> Again, I, nor anyone else could have said it better.
> 
> Just my tuppence.


:dunno: So then Hum do I get the same pay as you guy's then?


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## Perfecto Dave (Nov 24, 2009)

smelvis said:


> :dunno: So then Hum do I get the same pay as you guy's then?


I vote we give you a raise! Let's see...20% of -0- is a pretty hefty raise of .........ZERO!:doh:


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## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

smelvis said:


> :dunno: So then Hum do I get the same pay as you guy's then?


Absolutely, Dave! I'll PM you the address where you send your pound of flesh haaaa!


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## 54 Conqueror (Jun 17, 2011)

> 1. Implement the 500 posts and 6 month limitation before new members can access the Habano forum.


Glad you guys decided to keep the limitation as is.

I just got access this weekend, and have been waiting on pins and needles to be able start reading this forum. I read the rules and found out it's going to be awhile before I ever figure out sourcing, but at least I have been learning and have a list of things I want to try once I figure out how to get them.

I know what a frustrating job it is to moderate a forum. I do it on a rather large forum too. Many thanks to you who donate your time and energies trying to keep a bunch of "no faced" keyboard users in line.


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