# Mouth Cancer Prevention Theory - "Oil Pulling" with Grape Seed Oil



## gogirlanime (Jul 5, 2012)

So I thought I'd share if you are interested a possible inexpensive and easy way to prevent mouth cancer for us health nut cigar smokers.

I used to work at GNC and from what I can tell I know just as much as nutritionists (two of my friends are and I still teach them things) if not more because I worked there for 4 years and with a passion for nutrition and health. Some of you may know this about me already. So because I am very careful about health and because (no matter just how unhealthy you believe) cigars are certainly not as clean as the regular air to breathe I think we can all agree on that. Saying that. There is a method used in India called "oil pulling". The way it works is you swish around a cold-pressed plant oil in your mouth about a tablespoon for 30-60 minutes. I've done it before and I was amazed (and disgusted). It is a way to detox the body through the mouth. After swishing the oil around in my mouth for an hour the green olive oil was a bit brown when I was done, I was told on a forum that that was probably excess heavy metals in my body that I detoxed out. So this got me to thinking about how we can use this to prevent mouth cancer. Grapes and grape seeds have been proven to work topically (lotion, externally) on skin cancer because of it's resveratrol (the antioxidant in wine) and other antioxidants. Vitamin E also prevents cancers of all kinds.

So my point comes to this. I think I will do oil pulling as often as possible with cold-pressed grape seed oil to give my mouth the anti-cancer antioxidants and to help pull from my mouth all the toxins of a cigar. Since as cigar smokers the highest health risk we have is mouth cancer. Youtube some videos or Google things about oil pulling, you'll be surprised at how the color of an oil changes. Grape seed oil is very green so it will be easy to see a color change when you use it.


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## ten08 (Sep 8, 2011)

30-60 minutes!? I've never heard of oil pulling. Seems like it would be very difficult physically, and inconvenient should you need to speak with someone. Does it affect saliva production? Is there a trick to holding it there so long? Not bashing, just confused.


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## gogirlanime (Jul 5, 2012)

As far as I know there isn't really any easy way to do this. I always do it when I have time to myself at night before bed. It might not be something everyone has the time for. One thing you can do is spit it out and continue but that will use up more oil. It is difficult because your saliva does accumulate. Sometimes I spit out some and add more oil to compensate. You also don't have to violently swish it around the whole time (that becomes tiring to the mouth) but you also don't want it sitting there for too long too (because your mouth will re-absorb some of the toxins). You'll find your own swishing pace and what not. I say, if you are concerned about mouth cancer at least try it out and if it seems like too much work try something simpler like drinking green tea, take B-6 and vitamin C.


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## dayento2 (May 12, 2012)

would you use something like this?
Now® Grapeseed Oil - NNF - GNC


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## Smoke0ne (Feb 2, 2012)

This thread piqued my interest, so I googled a bit more info on it and gave it a try. I used sunflower oil (that's what most recommend) and swished for 20 minutes. It really wasn't as bad as you'd think, I just watched a bit of TV on the couch to blow some time. After 20 minutes, I spit it out and was somewhat amazed at what I saw, sure enough the yellow'ish sunflower oil had turned into a nasty milky fluid. Brushed my teeth right after spitting it out and my mouth feels quite refreshed. I'm not sure this will prevent cancer, but it certainly can't hurt, and it leaves your mouth feeling very clean. I'd consider doing this maybe once or twice a week to just refresh my mouth when I have a little down time. No complaints here after giving it a go, thanks for bringing this idea Allise.


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## ten08 (Sep 8, 2011)

gogirlanime said:


> [...] try it out and if it seems like too much work try something simpler like drinking green tea, take B-6 and vitamin C.


Thanks for the info Allise, I may give it a shot. ...and I already do the other stuff you mention. I'm no fool, no siree. I'm gonna live to be a hundred 'n three! :biggrin:


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## hardcz (Aug 1, 2007)

Ef that.

I'll stick to detoxing the way God meant us to, through sweating


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## tbull74 (Aug 3, 2012)

This seemed quite interesting. I read a few articles about this and am doing it right now. I used virgin olive oil for convenience, and the articles seemed to agree that olive oil is okay for this.


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## hardcz (Aug 1, 2007)

tbull74 said:


> This seemed quite interesting. I read a few articles about this and am doing it right now. I used virgin olive oil for convenience, and the articles seemed to agree that olive oil is okay for this.


If I write up several articles telling people to swish with deer urine to increase libido, cure impotence, cause butts to get smaller, and breasts to grow, I wonder if it'll catch on.


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## tbull74 (Aug 3, 2012)

hardcz said:


> If I write up several articles telling people to swish with deer urine to increase libido, cure impotence, cause butts to get smaller, and breasts to grow, I wonder if it'll catch on.


I already read those articles, I found that the increased libido, and smaller butt hypotheses worked perfectly. In fact I went from a 36 to a 32 waist line in a week! And btw it is not deer urine silly, it is in fact platypus urine. :banana:


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## Quine (Nov 9, 2011)

hardcz said:


> If I write up several articles telling people to swish with deer urine to increase libido, cure impotence, cause butts to get smaller, and breasts to grow, I wonder if it'll catch on.


Ha! Probably!

Have to say, this sounds a little fishy to me. Not that it might not make your mouth feel better, but there is no basis on which to speculate about its efficacy preventing cancer. If you want to prevent mouth cancer and still use tobacco products of any kind, the surest way is to greatly reduce that use. The probability of getting cancer is directly proportional to exposure to cancer causing agents. If you reduce that exposure, you are reducing your risk. I smoke 2 cigars a day. My Dr. says my risk at that rate is low, but even that is no guarantee. Still, if I was _really_ worried about it, I would find another hobby.


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## hardcz (Aug 1, 2007)

lol, just saying, sounds like some snake oil to me.... lol no pun intended.

Personally, I know more than someone that works at GNC because I have access to google, the most powerful search tool in the world.... Also most nutritionists I've met have been skewed in their beliefs, either either on one side or another of the spectrum, it's rare to find an actual balanced nutritionist.

On the other hand.... My future sister in law is nearing her college stay in nutrition and body mechanics, works at a suppliment company developing new suppliments for body builders and health nuts.... I'd trust a more scientist based person in this regard than some douchy nutritionist *no offense meant, just my thoughts in general*. Also before believing, mayhap consult with an oncologist to get their take on this... perhaps they've never heard of it, perhaps they have.... *shrug*

IMO the grape seed extract is better served in your body to take out those free radicals, but I have no base to back it up, only my own thoughts from reading books.


-- also, if I'm sounding like a douche, my bad, I really am somewhat of an a-hole, and you can tell me so, though offense has not been meant by my statements, just a little friendly debating is all.


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## Brettanomyces (Jul 12, 2012)

hardcz said:


> because I have access to google, the most powerful search tool in the world....


Not sure if you're serious.

Anyway, I'd love to see if anyone has done a pre and post analysis of the oil to see if there is any increase in heavy metal content. I don't think I'd be buying into this theory without any evidence. I wouldn't want to stop you from doing this if you feel it benefits you (oil is cheap, after all), but like anything else, making big claims without solid evidence to support them is always met with skepticism by me.


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## jurgenph (Jun 29, 2011)

gogirlanime said:


> The way it works is you swish around a cold-pressed plant oil in your mouth about a tablespoon for 30-60 minutes.


how do you even swish something (anything) around in your mouth for that long?

J.


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## Engineer99 (Aug 4, 2011)

For things like this, I'm a believer in the scientific method, with postulations, theories, control samples, ect...There are ways to scientifically validate or disprove things like this, which should put it either into the pseudo science camp or in the camp of legitimate health benefit. I did a little googling and everything out there is pretty anecdotal. For one, the increased oral hygiene could simply be the result of the recommended tooth brushing after swishing the oil around. 

From the laundry list of things it supposedly cures, it's made out to be some sort of miraculous panacea, and I'm immediately skeptical of something that makes such claims.


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## capttrips (Jun 25, 2012)

Obviously, a group of people have gathered together in a lounge and said "the 70s, 80s and 90s and 200+ Dead concerts haven't pushed Capttrips over the edge so let's come up with some of the most inane topics and see if that does the trick." Well you win! :banghead: Perhaps the moderators of this illustrious forum can put their heads together and come up with a "Health Topics" category for all those who are worried that cigars will make their teeth fall out, cause impotence, cause any number of cancers, boils, cysts, tumors, etc., ad infinitum, ad nauseum. Just throwing that out there. If you need to reach me I'll be at the Haight Ashbury Free Clinic seeing a shrink. Thank you and goodnight!:focus:


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## gogirlanime (Jul 5, 2012)

Wow I didn't expect such replies... Read what I said in the first paragraph please. It's fine if you don't believe in natural healing or if you think this is a "snake oil" method. From what I have studied is that your skin absorbs 60% of what you put on it and your gums even more. Antioxidants work on a cellular level which means that they do not need to be processed by any organs to work. There is a substance called DMSO which has been known to cure certain cancers on a topical level, it is a wood derivative and is where supplemental sulphur comes from, it is also an antioxidant. Undoubtably it's very important to get the nutrients similar to that of grape seed oil in your body as well in your regular diet. This is a method that has been used for hundreds of years. People have mentioned increased energy, reduced acne, and other things. This theory of mine is backed up by a lot of evidence. Is it 100% true? No, is it completely BS? No. It's not harming anyone and if you think people are dumb to try this, let them be dumb.


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## snagstangl (Aug 21, 2010)

I might give this a try. I have heard about flax seed oil as a cure for cancer, Dr. Budwig, i believe. I agree lots of things add to the possibility of cancer. I'm not against natural healing myself either. As for the scientific method, it is very good for somethings. But it measures only what can be replicated, semi easily and ethically. It has a narrow view, it only sees what it is looking at specifically, or what the study is intended on looking at while ignoring other factors. It is inefficient at best most of the time. At the same time there is the naturalistic fallacy, that assumes that the natural way to treat things is inherently better. I dont agree with this either, people used to die "naturally" from things like fever and simple infections that we treat easily via modern science. Cigars add to the chance of getting cancer, no doubt, but so does eating burnt food, your grandparents having cancer and so forth. So to get off my soap box, swish away until they come out with a study showing there is not merit. I agree you will be getting some good antioxidents and omega threes via having the oil in your mouth. Good luck!


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## hardcz (Aug 1, 2007)




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## snagstangl (Aug 21, 2010)

"every time i eat a steak a hippies hacky sack falls in the gutter" Patton oswald


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## Eleigh (Jun 8, 2012)

gogirlanime said:


> Wow I didn't expect such replies... Read what I said in the first paragraph please. It's fine if you don't believe in natural healing or if you think this is a "snake oil" method. From what I have studied is that your skin absorbs 60% of what you put on it and your gums even more. Antioxidants work on a cellular level which means that they do not need to be processed by any organs to work. There is a substance called DMSO which has been known to cure certain cancers on a topical level, it is a wood derivative and is where supplemental sulphur comes from, it is also an antioxidant. Undoubtably it's very important to get the nutrients similar to that of grape seed oil in your body as well in your regular diet. This is a method that has been used for hundreds of years. People have mentioned increased energy, reduced acne, and other things. This theory of mine is backed up by a lot of evidence. Is it 100% true? No, is it completely BS? No. It's not harming anyone and if you think people are dumb to try this, let them be dumb.


I would have to concur with the crowd. Anecdotes are not the same as evidence. Furthermore there's a huge difference between a substance causing cancer cell in a dish to regress, and it being effective in preventing cancer.

However, a great number of alternative medicines have worked better than placebo in trials, and those we now call simply 'medicine'. The rest is simply a nice bowl of soup and a bit of pot pourri.


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## Eleigh (Jun 8, 2012)

capttrips said:


> Obviously, a group of people have gathered together in a lounge and said "the 70s, 80s and 90s and 200+ Dead concerts haven't pushed Capttrips over the edge so let's come up with some of the most inane topics and see if that does the trick." Well you win! :banghead: Perhaps the moderators of this illustrious forum can put their heads together and come up with a "Health Topics" category for all those who are worried that cigars will make their teeth fall out, cause impotence, cause any number of cancers, boils, cysts, tumors, etc., ad infinitum, ad nauseum. Just throwing that out there. If you need to reach me I'll be at the Haight Ashbury Free Clinic seeing a shrink. Thank you and goodnight!:focus:


Erm... Why not just not read the posts you aren't interested in?


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## gogirlanime (Jul 5, 2012)

dayento2 said:


> would you use something like this?
> Now® Grapeseed Oil - NNF - GNC


yeah that would work! I buy mine from just a regular grocery store. I bought it at Fred Meyer specifically in the same section as olive oil


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## jmj_203 (Mar 16, 2011)

I'm in the same boat as Engineer99, I guess thats because I am an engineer and I like solid data to back something up. I guess the thing I would be interested in is somebody taking a sample of the oil they spit out after 30 to 60 minutes, and doing an analysis on what chemicals exactly, and or what heavy metals exactly, it is supposedly pulling out of your body. I would be interested in seeing that data, because I think I have a pretty good idea of what would be in the oil, oil & foods and bits & pieces of things you had in your mouth that day-i.e. zero heavy metals.

Also like said before, if you are THIS worried about mouth cancer-dudes & dudettes you should seriously just quit smoking cigars or reduce your intake. I STRUGGLE to find 1 hour of free time per every 3 to 4 days to enjoy a good cigar, how you can find the free time to do this regularly is beyond me. Then again I work 10hr days, and have a 2 yr old child at home so...

Last but not least, I would be interested in a Dentists & Oral hygienists take on this practice. I can't imagine its bad for your teeth & gums, but I'm not a doctor or dentist so I would prefer to get an educated take on this.


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## kumanchu (Mar 16, 2011)

just to be clear:

cancer is caused by damaged dna
many elements of tobacco smoke damage dna
anti-oxidants, oils, or otherwise known organic substances *will not fix damaged dna*

while it's great to remove residue left by smoking from your mouth (oil may be effective at this, no clue regarding solubility of whatever is left) please do not think that it cures or prevents cancer. at best, it may limit the exposure period to carcinogens. i would make a guess that brushing your teeth/gums would be more effective to this end.

on a related note: preventative health advice would be "stop smoking cigars". questionable after smoking methods of trying to mitigate the damage is hardly preventative.


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## drben (Jul 6, 2012)

Totally agree, however, any form of cancer is associated to a weak immune system. I find it interesting that in Cuba where men begin smoking cigars early in life and stop when they die. They do not have a higher rate of oral cancer. In fact they have more men living into their 90's who smoke cigars from morning to night. So either they have a stronger immune system, or there are other enviormental factors that inhibit the impact of oral cancers. (There are a number of reasons why oral cancer rates are so low in Cuba but this is not the place to present some of them). Now, the question is, are you willing too take the risk that that you either have a weak immune system or one that has the ability to repress cancer cells? Oh, by the way all of you have active cancer cells in you body as we speak but you healthy immune system is repressing their growth and development. My recommendations are smoke no more then one cigar a day, make sure they are premium cigars, and never, never chew on the end!!!.


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## drben (Jul 6, 2012)

If you put olive oil in a bottle shake it around it will appear white. Sorry.


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## atllogix (May 1, 2012)

I'm going to have to look into this. The concept is very intriguing.


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## stonecutter2 (Jul 12, 2012)

drben said:


> Totally agree, however, any form of cancer is associated to a weak immune system. I find it interesting that in Cuba where men begin smoking cigars early in life and stop when they die. They do not have a higher rate of oral cancer. In fact they have more men living into their 90's who smoke cigars from morning to night. So either they have a stronger immune system, or there are other enviormental factors that inhibit the impact of oral cancers. (There are a number of reasons why oral cancer rates are so low in Cuba but this is not the place to present some of them). Now, the question is, are you willing too take the risk that that you either have a weak immune system or one that has the ability to repress cancer cells? Oh, by the way all of you have active cancer cells in you body as we speak but you healthy immune system is repressing their growth and development. My recommendations are smoke no more then one cigar a day, make sure they are premium cigars, and never, never chew on the end!!!.


It's not only that people with weak immune systems get cancer. It is true that some people apparently "fight off" cancer or do it better than others, but that is not because their immune system is strong, it's just different and capable of fighting that type of cancer. There are simply some types of cancer that cannot be fought off, or that replicate too quickly for the body to destroy.


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## stonecutter2 (Jul 12, 2012)

gogirlanime said:


> People have mentioned increased energy, reduced acne, and other things. This theory of mine is backed up by a lot of evidence. Is it 100% true? No, is it completely BS? No. It's not harming anyone and if you think people are dumb to try this, let them be dumb.


People have reported a lot of things when they're made to believe that it's true. It's called the placebo effect. If you think that pseudo-science or unproven remedies don't harm anyone, you need to study more of what you're proposing. Plenty of people have been harmed by things they're suggested would 'help' them.

Read about Steve Jobs and his pancreatic cancer:
Alternative Medicine & The Death of Steve Jobs | Psychology Today

I know that oral cancer, or any cancer, is terrifying to think about. My Aunt died of an aggressive lung cancer at 50, leaving 2 kids and 3 grandkids that she'll never see grow up. If swishing oil around your mouth makes you think you can avoid it, ok. But don't keep swishing if something suspect shows up - get professional medical treatment.

Sorry for getting preachy but it's just how I feel.


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## jphank (Apr 29, 2012)

I'm really disappointed at the attitude of some of the posts in this thread.

The human body is a wonderful thing, and when it fails, it fails spectacularly. But it's unique, and no one thing will work to cure problems for every person. When things break, they can break into cascading failures. What works for one person won't work for another, and scientific studies don't take that into consideration and are essentially handcuffing the "art" of medicine. Because I don't fit into a cookie cutter mold, I've been told I'm not ill. In fact, after two brain surgeries, some alternative medicine and an off-label use for a drug, I'm still alive today to tell the tale. Had my doctors only used scientific evidence and statistics, I would most certainly be toes up.

Don't fault someone for their right to look into keeping their bodies healthy. Don't knock it when someone insists they use colloidal silver and garlic to prevent an infection instead of going to the doctor for antibiotics which are over prescribed anyway. One man's snake oil is another man's cure.


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## Guest (Aug 23, 2012)

drben said:


> If you put olive oil in a bottle shake it around it will appear white. Sorry.


No, those are the toxins and heavy metals being cleansed from the bottle! ound:


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## Quine (Nov 9, 2011)

jphank said:


> I'm really disappointed at the attitude of some of the posts in this thread.


Why Jessica? No one has been nasty about it. Perhaps a little sarcasm here and there, but then the original claim was quite bold. Alise did not claim that swishing oil would prevent cancer, but she suggested it might, and even that requires some evidence or at least some plausible mechanism that someone somewhere has demonstrated actually does something. After all, red grape juice is full of anti-oxidants so why not swish that, or possibly just some water to more quickly wash carcinogens off the tissues of the mouth, etc? Any or all of it might be better than nothing, so in the absence of any specific evidence for one substance or another, a healthy skepticism should be expected.


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## drben (Jul 6, 2012)

stonecutter2 said:


> It's not only that people with weak immune systems get cancer. It is true that some people apparently "fight off" cancer or do it better than others, but that is not because their immune system is strong, it's just different and capable of fighting that type of cancer. There are simply some types of cancer that cannot be fought off, or that replicate too quickly for the body to destroy.


I would Like to know what type of cancers were not associated to a immune disorder.


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## wacbzz (Aug 19, 2007)

jphank said:


> Don't knock it when someone insists they use colloidal silver...


Yeah, cuz this guy's still loving life...






:twitch:

I don't mean anything personal, but I wonder how many times this guy listed to that Dead Doctors Don't Lie tape that floated around in the mid 90's?!?!?


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## Bad Finger (Jan 5, 2011)

I'm just gunna leave this here....

Another Study Confirms Anti-Cancer Effects of THC and CBD - Philadelphia medical marijuana | Examiner.com


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## smelvis (Sep 7, 2009)

Thanks Lady
It can't hurt, I'm going to try at my age any help is good as long as it's not going to hurt me I see no harm in it.

Thank You for caring


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## Brettanomyces (Jul 12, 2012)

jphank said:


> I'm really disappointed at the attitude of some of the posts in this thread.


I think Quine nailed the mature response to this very well. Yes, there have been a few sarcastic posts, but they've largely been in the minority. The thread title is certainly very bold, and given the lack of evidence, a good and healthy skepticism by others has to be expected. That this theory/practice is not a part of established and recommended medical practice is, as you've mentioned, not really reason alone to doubt it, but the lack of any evidence (that's surfaced so far) certainly is. Aside from the medical establishment, this practice should still be able to sustain critical inquiry if it is to be accepted as reasonable, or just not put down for being suspect.

Keep in mind, too, the number of crackpot "medical theories" out there, and how someone is generally trying to gain something (money, fame, power) by pushing them. It makes us all a bit leery of untested medical ideas.


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## stonecutter2 (Jul 12, 2012)

drben said:


> I would Like to know what type of cancers were not associated to a immune disorder.


I'm not sure what you're getting at. Immune disorder implies a defective or non-functional immune system.

Are you saying that we can all fight off or prevent cancer if we just keep our immune system's healthy? Because even a body with a healthy immune system can get cancer. That's not to say if one has cancer they shouldn't try to be healthier and boost their immune system, though.

Types of cancer can certainly cause an immune disorder.

An immune disorder is not the only way you can get cancer.

Let's look at mesothelioma. It's usually caused by asbestos. The person's immune system, or any disorder of it, is irrelevant. A perfectly healthy person in all respects could develop this cancer, and indeed die from it. There is no immune disorder associated with developing mesothelioma. Can some people's immune system fight off cancer better than others? Yeah possibly. Can one's immune system be "boosted" to help fight the cancer? Possibly.

If cancer grows faster than your immune system can handle (provided it's a cancer cell your immune system can fight), it doesn't mean you have an immune disorder. Small cell carcinoma is one type that can do this - it can grow very quickly and aggressively, and do things like cut off your air supply by surrounding your trachea, as my Aunt's almost did until radiation shrunk the tumor so she could breathe better.


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## snagstangl (Aug 21, 2010)

Smoke what you like, like what you smoke = Swish what you like, like what you swish.

Maybe I over complicated it with my previous post. Some like scotch etc. others would like to try olive oil.


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## fuente~fuente (May 11, 2009)

I for one appreciate that you cared enough to share this with us Allise. Never hurts to look out for the best interests of the BOTL/SOTL. :nod:


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## Mante (Dec 25, 2009)

There are an awful lot of cancer experts here that have never taken that journey. Thank you for taking the time to post up Allise. :thumb:


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## Eleigh (Jun 8, 2012)

I'd love to see a study showing an statistical benefit of ingesting antioxidants at all. Never have.


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## Eleigh (Jun 8, 2012)

jphank said:


> I'm really disappointed at the attitude of some of the posts in this thread.
> 
> The human body is a wonderful thing, and when it fails, it fails spectacularly. But it's unique, and no one thing will work to cure problems for every person. When things break, they can break into cascading failures. What works for one person won't work for another, and scientific studies don't take that into consideration and are essentially handcuffing the "art" of medicine. Because I don't fit into a cookie cutter mold, I've been told I'm not ill. In fact, after two brain surgeries, some alternative medicine and an off-label use for a drug, I'm still alive today to tell the tale. Had my doctors only used scientific evidence and statistics, I would most certainly be toes up.
> 
> Don't fault someone for their right to look into keeping their bodies healthy. Don't knock it when someone insists they use colloidal silver and garlic to prevent an infection instead of going to the doctor for antibiotics which are over prescribed anyway. One man's snake oil is another man's cure.


I'm really interested to learn more about your unscientific brain surgeries... I'd guess they were infact conducted by scientifically trained professionals. We're all being friendly here, but we have opinions. You're welcome to disagree and I respect that. I thought it churlish of you to hit me with negative RG for disagreeing with mine.


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## stonecutter2 (Jul 12, 2012)

fuente~fuente said:


> I for one appreciate that you cared enough to share this with us Allise. Never hurts to look out for the best interests of the BOTL/SOTL. :nod:


Yeah, I agree - I mean it's interesting stuff. Even though I'm doubtful of it's benefits, hey ya never know when something can end up proving an immense benefit in the fight against cancer. Because man...it's a heck of a fight. And watching someone lose that fight no matter how hard they struggle is really heart-wrenching.


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## stonecutter2 (Jul 12, 2012)

Bad Finger said:


> I'm just gunna leave this here....
> 
> Another Study Confirms Anti-Cancer Effects of THC and CBD - Philadelphia medical marijuana | Examiner.com


I find these results fascinating and have since they were first released.


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## capttrips (Jun 25, 2012)

As someone who suffers from an auto-immune disease that will someday probably kill me this is the biggest pile of horse shit I've ever heard of in my life. I have moderate liver disease with a viral load so high its easier to count the commas than it is to say the numbers. I take pills everyday and injections twice a week. I have constant flu like systems. I work part-time (in the health care field) because I can't stay awake an entire day. Ive been in more clinical trials and to see more doctors than I care to count. I belong to more forums that have more people that suffer from hepatitis c than I know of. My chances of contracting liver cancer or needing a liver transplant are off the charts. Not one healthcare professional, not one person, has ever suggested that I swirl, inject, or ingest grape seed oil or some other natural substance in an effort to avoid cancer.

I have 3 joys left in my life right now: my family, golf and cigars. If I want to think about cancer I can everyday. If you're so worried about it and think you can cheat it by swirling some shit in your mouth give mea call and I'd be more than happy to let you carry my load for a week and take your chances.

Me, I'm going out to enjoy a cigar. The rest of you can wait on the grim reaper.

Addendum: not one physician has suggested I quit smoking cigars for fear of cancer. Not one. 

If this hurts someone's feelings I'm sorry. Admin can ban me now.


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## smelvis (Sep 7, 2009)

Tashaz said:


> There are an awful lot of cancer experts here that have never taken that journey. Thank you for taking the time to post up Allise. :thumb:


Well said my Friend, I told Warren and a few other about my sister, she had several half dollar sized small cell tumors in her Lungs/Breasts, She went to the docs and they said do radiation and chemo and maybe she would have another six months but it was just guessing.

She would have but instead a friend mentioned another friend who beat theirs with an off the wall treatment called Rife and a combination of herb and stuff, it took $4,500 and 3 weeks then she went home and back to the docs. Guess what it was all gone except for scare tissue. The docs said they didn't know what she was doing but keep it up!

The sad part was she then thought she had a get out of jail card and stopped the herbs, continued smoking and in about a year the cancer was in her brain, Unfortunately and though they tried they meaning natural treatment people said they had poor results with the brain yet had great success with lungs, breast and colon almost 98% success if caught in time. So I held her hand as she died. I miss my sister! ( Caution what you say here about sis ) ( I am not kidding saying nothing would be best if not positive)

I think a combination of modern medicine and natural remedies is the way to go and I have picked a Doc that agrees. Both my parents, other family members and a lot of friends left this world because of that nasty disease.

I also am on my way out but not because of cancer at least not yet and I called to try and get in to see the people that helped my sister and hundreds of others, well I found out someone with stage 4 almost dead went to see them Way to late and they couldn't help her so they complained and they were shut down and paid more in fines than I have and are on probation. The damn hypocrites and AMA who have such a large mouths ruined and killed who knows how many. These people were so kind they used the money they made to do missionary work in Africa and other places and if you couldn't afford treatment they still treated you and hundreds of people are alive today because of them. I have met at least a couple dozen personally doing due diligence as the little brother protecting Sis and I was convinced and still am.

Many actually most of society call them kooks but those kooks put someone who was actually saving lives out of business and by association killed probably hundreds of others because of their hatred.

I believe my sister may be alive today if she had continued the very simple treatments maybe not but at least I got a year or so more time with her and boy did I relish that time and was down there with her almost every other weekend,

So who is to say oil may not help we all know one thing it won't hurt, Some of us are so damn critical we have to pick apart every thread while there are hundred of useless crap threads a lot more recently. It kind of piss's me off because I love Puff and I know those some of anyway could care less they just want to be obtuse!

Thanks Allise Love ya Kiddo


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## hardcz (Aug 1, 2007)

Bad Finger said:


> I'm just gunna leave this here....
> 
> Another Study Confirms Anti-Cancer Effects of THC and CBD - Philadelphia medical marijuana | Examiner.com


Unfortunately my employer has other thoughts on the matter... ...... dot dot dot....


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## jphank (Apr 29, 2012)

I can't give RG to Smelvis!


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## Mante (Dec 25, 2009)

jphank said:


> I can't give RG to Smelvis!


I can.


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## nikonnut (Dec 4, 2011)

Smelvis,
My condolences, brother. Watched my father lose his battle under the supervision of the finest western medicine had to offer. Good people? Yep. Tried their best? Of course. Would I try an alternate method given the chance? Definately. What can it hurt? In this case its just oil and at the least it has a positive effect mentally (and spiritually). At the best, it works! No harm, no foul and that is just this fellas opinion. Nothing more.


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## Feldenak (Aug 15, 2012)

Smelvis, I'm so sorry to hear about your sister. You have my deepest and most sincere condolences. 

I've only been here a short time and I hope I don't offend anyone, but why the harsh treatment to someone who was only passing along what she thought might minimize our hobby's risk. I see no harm in what she's posted and I certainly didn't see her suggest avoiding modern medicine...just an alternative preventative. You don't have to like it, nor do you have to follow her suggestion but there's no reason to attack her for passing along what she suggested in good faith. Just say, thanks for the suggestion and go about your day. On a long enough timeline, everyone's survival rate is zero. Enjoy the time you have, do what you can to possibly prolong it (as long as it is good quality of life) and cherish those close to you.


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## DarrelMorris (Feb 7, 2012)

I am surprised at how personally everyone has taken the responses on this thread. Allise, thank you for sharing this with us. You have consistently added a valuable alternative viewpoint to our community. Don't let the negative responses of the skeptics scare you away or keep you from contributing here. Personally I'm a skeptic too. I am also a skeptic of traditional medicine as well. The human body is an incredible and complex organism that can't be explained or understood by science or faith alone and I distrust anyone who says that they have the only answers. Please keep sharing your unique viewpoint. I won't always agree with you, but I do appreciate hearing your ideas.


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## Feldenak (Aug 15, 2012)

Darrel, I couldn't agree more.


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## smelvis (Sep 7, 2009)

nikonnut said:


> Smelvis,
> My condolences, brother. Watched my father lose his battle under the supervision of the finest western medicine had to offer. Good people? Yep. Tried their best? Of course. Would I try an alternate method given the chance? Definately. What can it hurt? In this case its just oil and at the least it has a positive effect mentally (and spiritually). At the best, it works! No harm, no foul and that is just this fellas opinion. Nothing more.


Thanks and condolences on your Father brother. Maybe the heading could be worded differently but all she was doing as you said was offering something she does, well do this daily, Well said and great post dude. We never forget our loved ones losing the battle and it will never be easy dammit. But we move on as they would all want us to.

PS
Thanks for the RG Jessica/Warren


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## Mante (Dec 25, 2009)

smelvis said:


> Thanks for the RG Jessica


Fixed it for ya. Blame her, it's all her fault! :lalala:ound::eyebrows:


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## hardcz (Aug 1, 2007)

Look... I'm not one to jump on any band wagon, and I find I like to incorporate a little of my humor in most things, like these posts. I'm not saying it doesn't work, I'm not saying it does. I've just long ago realized I tend not to just believe things because someone says it's that way. I've been burned that way. 

Doesn't mean I'm not taking the red yeast rice my doctor suggested I take versus some chemical pills to raise my cholesterol. I see a DO over and MD for a reason.


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## jphank (Apr 29, 2012)

Tashaz said:


> Fixed it for ya. Blame her, it's all her fault! :lalala:ound::eyebrows:


Damnit, Warren. You're trying to get me destroyed again!


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## smelvis (Sep 7, 2009)

Tashaz said:


> Fixed it for ya. Blame her, it's all her fault! :lalala:ound::eyebrows:





jphank said:


> Damnit, Warren. You're trying to get me destroyed again!


:boohoo:
Guy's ya all must know by now I Literally have hit Men/Women in every state and yes Country! Oh and the word Literally was used correctly this time. :wave:


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## smelvis (Sep 7, 2009)

hardcz said:


> Look... I'm not one to jump on any band wagon, and I find I like to incorporate a little of my humor in most things, like these posts. I'm not saying it doesn't work, I'm not saying it does. I've just long ago realized I tend not to just believe things because someone says it's that way. I've been burned that way.
> 
> Doesn't mean I'm not taking the red yeast rice my doctor suggested I take versus some chemical pills to raise my cholesterol. I see a DO over and MD for a reason.


I understood you fine Dan, Your more like me when I get in trouble I don't mean to, Now have a good week brother!


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## smelvis (Sep 7, 2009)

DarrelMorris said:


> I am surprised at how personally everyone has taken the responses on this thread. Allise, thank you for sharing this with us. You have consistently added a valuable alternative viewpoint to our community. Don't let the negative responses of the skeptics scare you away or keep you from contributing here. Personally I'm a skeptic too. I am also a skeptic of traditional medicine as well. The human body is an incredible and complex organism that can't be explained or understood by science or faith alone and I distrust anyone who says that they have the only answers. Please keep sharing your unique viewpoint. I won't always agree with you, but I do appreciate hearing your ideas.


Well as long as I'm posting I might as well continue, I have to agree which is why I seem a little aggressive on this thread. We have but a few women on this board some with as much experience am me and a lot of you and some leaning new stuff, As Darrel said she simply was telling us something she does she didn't say hey do this it will cure cancer. so yes please I would love to see a couple people leave and none of them are Women.

Last time Allise Thanks and as always tell us more BTW all I had was olive oil but I did it twice for 25 minutes each time. If nothing else my mouth feels cleaner.

Dave


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## kumanchu (Mar 16, 2011)

Dave,

I'm sorry to hear about your sister. That is a very sad story. 

I respectfully disagree with you regarding the AMA, and their duty and authority to regulate the practice of medicine. While some "kooks" may help people; others cause harm by diverting time and attention away from tested methodology. Methods that are unproven are not reliable, and it is dangerous to public health to encourage it for that reason. While cancer is not a communicable disease; I still think that leaning towards risk aversion (scientifically proven medicine) is a smarter place for people to put their time and money.

Like many things, this is a life choice; and like many threads this has gone super off topic. Sorry Allise!


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## smelvis (Sep 7, 2009)

kumanchu said:


> Dave,
> 
> I'm sorry to hear about your sister. That is a very sad story.
> 
> ...


Hi Gary
Sorry bro I was there and knew these people, why do you think some drugs that rival say spiriva that appear to work everywhere but here are outlawed, it crooked MF's that need to move to Africa and get a job there or somewhere where basic meds are a luxury. It's greed and money. The AMA and FDA suck and should be abandoned and a new mandate installed, in my opinion patents should be given no longer than five years period. We are the worst High tech Country as far as medicine of our size. They have bankrupted us dude at least they are a big part of it.

But we can agree to disagree brother. Shit the drug I need is allowed in Japan but not here?

But yeah we are now off topic brother, to end it's different to us that they hurt and need stuff and those that sit behind a desk and reap the benefits


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## Mante (Dec 25, 2009)

smelvis said:


> :boohoo:
> Guy's ya all must know by now I Literally have hit Men/Women in every state and yes Country! Oh and the word Literally was used correctly this time. :wave:


I know, you killed me at least a dozen times. LOL


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## Brettanomyces (Jul 12, 2012)

Wow, a lot has happened here in a small amount of time. I hope my skepticism was not misconstrued as anything personal. I like to see the sharing of ideas, and examining and questioning them critically is not a knock against anyone or their ideas. I'm of the mind that it's something that must bed done, for a variety of reasons, none of them having to do with anyone in particular. I appreciate the presence of a great many people on this board, Allise included (though I admit I have not found the opportunity to get to know her well), and I'm glad to be a member. I've only been here a short time, but it's been informative and enjoyable, and the generosity I see on here on a daily basis is incredible.

On a more personal note, Smelvis, I'm sorry to hear about your sister. I remember losing my grandfather to cancer, and almost lost my sister, as well, as number of years back. I can only imagine how that would have affected me. I hope you have found the means to move on, or at least find peace with your loss.


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## gogirlanime (Jul 5, 2012)

Here are two things about cancer I have read (and based off of studies) in the book "The China Study" by: T. Colin Campbell. Lab rats that ate only soybeans (said to cause breast cancer) only 3% developed cancer. Lab rats that were fed only milk products their whole lives, 87% (maybe it was 86% can't remember) developed cancer. Cows milk contains DNA and casein a protein that is meant to help baby cows grow up and it continues to have that effect on our bodies only it is cow DNA we are drinking. I am a vegan myself but I in no way and against a person's choice to eat meat and dairy, I just thought since we are discussing cancer you should know what I've read.

Also, cancer absolutely cannot survive in a completely alkaline (opposite of acidic) environment. But it is impossible and deadly to have a purely alkaline body. But the more alkaline (while still being healthy) our bodies are, the less likely we will develop cancer. Luckily cigars are alkaline and cigarettes are acidic (read that here somewhere, pretty interesting). Guess what are the most alkaline things we eat? Fruits and vegetables yeah herbs, plants, and nature are "placebo"



smelvis said:


> Well said my Friend, I told Warren and a few other about my sister, she had several half dollar sized small cell tumors in her Lungs/Breasts, She went to the docs and they said do radiation and chemo and maybe she would have another six months but it was just guessing.
> 
> She would have but instead a friend mentioned another friend who beat theirs with an off the wall treatment called Rife and a combination of herb and stuff, it took $4,500 and 3 weeks then she went home and back to the docs. Guess what it was all gone except for scare tissue. The docs said they didn't know what she was doing but keep it up!
> 
> ...


Wow so inspirational! Thank you for this, this gives me hope for the future of cancer cures and prevention! I am sorry for your loss, I can only hope for a brighter future with this disease and peace of mind for you.



capttrips said:


> As someone who suffers from an auto-immune disease that will someday probably kill me this is the biggest pile of horse shit I've ever heard of in my life.


I am sorry to hear about your disease I truly am. As I said from the beginning this thread was for those who are interested, and I said it was a theory, and that is was for cancer prevention, not a cure to repair. I find it hurtful that all I was trying to do was help (whether you believe my theory or not) and you call it "horse s***" Well I like to help people or inspire ideas in people be it wrong or right. If I have presented anything to anyone here it was the idea of care and the inspiration to think outside the box about cancer.



fuente~fuente said:


> I for one appreciate that you cared enough to share this with us Allise. Never hurts to look out for the best interests of the BOTL/SOTL. :nod:


Thank you! People are taking this too seriously. It boils down to everyone has the choice to read this, agree/disagree with me, and take the action to try this if they want. Reading this didn't cost you money, it didn't force you to do anything, it's not that big of a deal. Dr. Oz unhealthy heal suggestions as well (like HCG)



stonecutter2 said:


> Are you saying that we can all fight off or prevent cancer if we just keep our immune system's healthy? Because even a body with a healthy immune system can get cancer. That's not to say if one has cancer they shouldn't try to be healthier and boost their immune system, though.


Agreed, Lance Armstrong.



Quine said:


> Why Jessica? No one has been nasty about it. Perhaps a little sarcasm here and there, but then the original claim was quite bold. Alise did not claim that swishing oil would prevent cancer, but she suggested it might, and even that requires some evidence or at least some plausible mechanism that someone somewhere has demonstrated actually does something. After all, red grape juice is full of anti-oxidants so why not swish that, or possibly just some water to more quickly wash carcinogens off the tissues of the mouth, etc? Any or all of it might be better than nothing, so in the absence of any specific evidence for one substance or another, a healthy skepticism should be expected.


This is a very realistic opinion about this, thank you for being mature about the subject and realistic. Very true, in the absence of nothing something natural regardless would do more than nothing. Again, as the title said "prevention" and "theory" and then in the first paragraph I said "for those who are interested"



jphank said:


> I'm really disappointed at the attitude of some of the posts in this thread.
> 
> The human body is a wonderful thing, and when it fails, it fails spectacularly. But it's unique, and no one thing will work to cure problems for every person. When things break, they can break into cascading failures. What works for one person won't work for another, and scientific studies don't take that into consideration and are essentially handcuffing the "art" of medicine. Because I don't fit into a cookie cutter mold, I've been told I'm not ill. In fact, after two brain surgeries, some alternative medicine and an off-label use for a drug, I'm still alive today to tell the tale. Had my doctors only used scientific evidence and statistics, I would most certainly be toes up.
> 
> Don't fault someone for their right to look into keeping their bodies healthy. Don't knock it when someone insists they use colloidal silver and garlic to prevent an infection instead of going to the doctor for antibiotics which are over prescribed anyway. One man's snake oil is another man's cure.


Thank you Jessica. And as I said in the first paragraph, I said, "for those who are interested" no one forced you to look at this thread. I had a hormonal imbalance and took herbs only and now I am fine, my doctor tried to put me on dangerous birth control and I didn't want to. Since it wasn't life threatening and because it wasn't going to get worse yet the birth control might have caused side effects I decided to try natural first, and guess what? It worked, and my doctor couldn't believe it. Not all natural medicine is placebo

Vitamins and plant compounds are used to heal. If natural things are so "placebo" then why do vegans have such a low disease rate and why do people who eat processed foods get really unhealthy and fat... I think it's because those vegetables are placebo and the man-made conventional food "cures". I'm not saying conventional medicine doesn't work, not saying that at all, I'm just saying you can naturally prevent (hence the very name of this thread prevention... not cure or repair cancer) disease and when not a serious condition it is an option to go natural before conventional



stonecutter2 said:


> People have reported a lot of things when they're made to believe that it's true. It's called the placebo effect. If you think that pseudo-science or unproven remedies don't harm anyone, you need to study more of what you're proposing. Plenty of people have been harmed by things they're suggested would 'help' them.
> 
> Read about Steve Jobs and his pancreatic cancer:
> Alternative Medicine & The Death of Steve Jobs | Psychology Today
> ...


There is a difference between preventing a disease and curing a disease. If you don't already have cancer there are things like this method that you can use to possibly prevent it but by all means if I suddenly got mouth cancer, of course not, I'm not dumb I'm not going the Steve Jobs route, he was an idiot for doing that. My main message is natural if not deadly or threatening and conventional if it is.



drben said:


> If you put olive oil in a bottle shake it around it will appear white. Sorry.


That's O.K. if you don't accept this form of prevention, not treatment or repair but prevention. My olive oil turned brown, not white.



kumanchu said:


> just to be clear:
> 
> cancer is caused by damaged dna
> many elements of tobacco smoke damage dna
> ...


No it will not repair damage that is already done but antioxidants fight against the free radicals floating around and will fight them from damaging your DNA, once your DNA is damaged, yes, no natural treatment can fix that. Plus DNA damage is not the only thing that causes cancer. The main thing to cancer is DNA damage, but it also includes the new growth of unnecessary tissue and cells (with DNA damage of course).


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## kumanchu (Mar 16, 2011)

gogirlanime said:


> No it will not repair damage that is already done but antioxidants fight against the free radicals floating around and will fight them from damaging your DNA, once your DNA is damaged, yes, no natural treatment can fix that. Plus DNA damage is not the only thing that causes cancer. The main thing to cancer is DNA damage, but it also includes the new growth of unnecessary tissue and cells (with DNA damage of course).


The growth of cancerous tumors happens because of the damaged DNA in those cells. The damage to the DNA in cancerous cells allows them to replicate after they should have stopped. Damaged DNA is the one and only reason why cancer occurs.

there are many different reasons why dna can be damaged
not all tumors are cancer

i also disagree that it is a "preventative" measure. at best this is a "mitigating" measure.

i think that i take this topic seriously because it's something that I think about in the back of my mind. not so much as 'will i or will i not', but weighing the risks. Recently my girlfriend has been trying puffs of my smokes here and there and seems to like them. I feel like i'm being a bad influence on a very nice (and healthy!!) girl. while I wholeheartedly share just about anything; i'm hesitant to share this vice, for her sake.


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## Eleigh (Jun 8, 2012)

This is a very important point raised by smelvis. Everyone us entitled to try any remedy we see fit, its our body. However there is a thing called spontaneous remission. If a remedy has not been proven scientifically to work, its probably not appropriate for a doctor to recommend it.


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## stonecutter2 (Jul 12, 2012)

gogirlanime said:


> There is a difference between preventing a disease and curing a disease. If you don't already have cancer there are things like this method that you can use to possibly prevent it but by all means if I suddenly got mouth cancer, of course not, I'm not dumb I'm not going the Steve Jobs route, he was an idiot for doing that. My main message is natural if not deadly or threatening and conventional if it is.


You're right. And the field of cancer prevention is really pretty young. So long as someone takes your sensible perspective and seeks treatment when they really need it, I have no issue with whatever someone does. It is their body, after all 

I hope I didn't upset you in any way with my replies.


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## hardcz (Aug 1, 2007)

I'm feeling left out, Allise didn't quote any of my posts.


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## smelvis (Sep 7, 2009)

hardcz said:


> I'm feeling left out, Allise didn't quote any of my posts.


Oh no Dan she pm'ed the whole bunch of us and you are in big trouble dude  Naw she thought you were me and we were equally quoted LOL


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## sean373 (Sep 21, 2007)

I have tried both oil pulling, and the oil cleansing method in the past and while both have been helpful, it becomes quite a hassle and its messy. Will your dentist notice a difference if you do it regularly? Probably, mine did but nothing drastic. I suspect whatever money you save at the dentist office will just end up being spent on a plumber if your spitting oil down the drain every day. I'll stick to drinking green tea.


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## hardcz (Aug 1, 2007)

smelvis said:


> Oh no Dan she pm'ed the whole bunch of us and you are in big trouble dude  Naw she thought you were me and we were equally quoted LOL


lol, that makes me feel better


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## Kevin Keith (Jan 24, 2010)

I use lots of natural supplements, including grape seed but haven't done the oil spit treatment. I doubt I could swish for 5 minutes, let alone an hour. :tongue1:


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## Loggerhead (Dec 18, 2011)

I don't know, I've read about this before. It has (I should probably add of course) been discredited by the accepted medical community, but as we all know, that doesn't mean anything. It is premised on the theory that most or all of the accumulated toxins in the body eventually pass through the buccal glands, i.e. the mouth. The problem is, many of the body's toxins are not lipid-soluble and would therefore not dissolve in oil. I think the color change that people speak of is merely from the digestive actions of the saliva on the oil. Has analysis been done of used oil after a "pulling" to see if it contains what we would normally consider toxins? And if the salivary glands do excrete toxins, just spitting throughout the day---or at least frequently while smoking---would have the same effect. I like to wash my mouth out with warm water a few times after smoking a cigar, and I never chew the end or leave it for a long period of time in my mouth. I believe that this alone greatly decreases the risk or oral/thoracic cancers.
What concerns me is that people who do this on a regular basis often feel extremely sick and nasty for a while. Indian ayurveda practitioners attribute this to the body's natural reaction to having all of these deep-seated toxins stirred up and expelled. Supposedly, if you stick with it for a month, your health should drastically improve and you will feel worlds healthier.

However, given the above, I am still somewhat interested in trying it for non-cigar related reasons. Who knows? There may be something here that our current medical understanding can not explain. Just as with acupuncture and a whole slew of other alternative care treatments, it's best not to be too closed minded on what might at first appear a strange idea. Imagine trying to explain cigar smoking to someone who was completely unaware of smoking anything. "Hey, you see that plant over there? Lets pluck it's leaves off, let them sit for a very long time and start to rot (ferment), rap them up in another leaf, let them sit some more then light the end and suck the smoke into our mouths! I bet it will taste like a chocolaty, nutty, woodsy barbecued piece of meat, with pepper!"


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## Eleigh (Jun 8, 2012)

Loggerhead said:


> I don't know, I've read about this before. It has (I should probably add of course) been discredited by the accepted medical community, but as we all know, that doesn't mean anything..."/
> 
> 
> > I think that's unfair. Treatments that are discredited by the scientific community have been so because ( in most cases, politics not withstanding) they have been tested and shown not to work in large groups of people.
> ...


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## Arnie (Jan 5, 2009)

Thanks for posting this Allise. 

24 years ago I developed colitis. I went the usual route, saw my doctor, ended up at a specialist and started on medication. I was allergic to the medicine, and so at the end of lots of money and time the doctor finally told me I would have to learn to live with it.

I had asked the doctor if my diet might have something to do with the colitis and he replied, "No, we can't find any correlation to diet and colitis. It just happens."

Well, I was introduced to Dr. Vasant Lad in New Mexico and he was able to give me a diet to follow and some herbs to take. Within 2 weeks I was feeling better and I have been free from problems ever since. I more or less follow the diet and have been taking various Ayervedic herbs ever since. It works.

This oil rinsing is an Ayervedic treatment. Will it prevent cancer? Maybe, maybe not, but it cannot hurt and has been shown to reduce gingivitis, and halitosis among some other things which I forget. 

The point is this:
The human body is not completely understood yet by western science. There is still room to learn more. I hope that western doctors and Ayervedic doctors can work together in the future to help us achieve even better health. There is a balance. I have been to a western doctor who is also an Ayervedic doctor and she really knows her stuff. She does some fabulous work helping people with health issues.


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## LuvMaduros (Aug 24, 2012)

In the interest of health and since grape oil and wine have some of the same properties, can I just drink wine for an hour and swish it before I send it down the hatch?


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## Draepheus (Jun 22, 2012)

I am not a supporter of alternative nutrient / vitamin / mineral / and supplement style medicine. I feel it's inconsistent and can give false hope which can be much worse than no hope at all to some people. Worse, these styles of medicine more often delay or hide the affects or damage done until it eventually gets so bad that it can't be hidden anymore. These medicines are from my experience and those I know, a hidden danger and a placebo all around. That being said, some people will have some effect from it as every once in a while something works for someone, but I am an advocate of the nano-scale and technological development of medicine, not the herbal remedies going around that are avoided for a particular reason.

I actually know a person heavily involved in this type of medicine and at some point they want you to take 50 supplemental nutrient pills a day which is ludicrous.

Many times it seems that people believe the medical industry is just out to make you dependent on them and not in it for saving lives, and I think this gives society as a whole a terrible name.


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## Eleigh (Jun 8, 2012)

Draepheus said:


> I am not a supporter of alternative nutrient / vitamin / mineral / and supplement style medicine. I feel it's inconsistent and can give false hope which can be much worse than no hope at all to some people. Worse, these styles of medicine more often delay or hide the affects or damage done until it eventually gets so bad that it can't be hidden anymore. These medicines are from my experience and those I know, a hidden danger and a placebo all around. That being said, some people will have some effect from it as every once in a while something works for someone, but I am an advocate of the nano-scale and technological development of medicine, not the herbal remedies going around that are avoided for a particular reason.
> 
> I actually know a person heavily involved in this type of medicine and at some point they want you to take 50 supplemental nutrient pills a day which is ludicrous.
> 
> Many times it seems that people believe the medical industry is just out to make you dependent on them and not in it for saving lives, and I think this gives society as a whole a terrible name.


It's a fair point you make. One could take the 'I have nothing to lose ' approach, but then how many ridiculous and pointless rituals would end up carrying out.

The biggest issue I have is the alternative remedies common justification. 'it worked or me when modern medicine failed.' this is commonly heard from alternative advocates that clearly don't acknowledge placebo effects. 'it's been used for hundres of years.' So has tobacco, the thing the particular remedy is trying to protect us from. Next time you get a headache, why not try a spot of trepanning? It was used for thousands of years.

The simple fact is that every common alternative remedy has been tested numerous times in the lab, and they remain alternative because they don't work. The ones that do work cease to be alternative, and becone mainstream medicine.


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## snagstangl (Aug 21, 2010)

Eleigh said:


> It's a fair point you make. One could take the 'I have nothing to lose ' approach, but then how many ridiculous and pointless rituals would end up carrying out.


 So if you take the position on this particular treatment is possibly preventing oral cancer, then add slippery slope argument. One does not logically follow from the other. It just means with regards to this particular attitude one chooses to have about one treatment, the benefits outweigh the possibility that it is in effective. Not that one would prescribe and carry out " many ridiculous and pointless rituals" because of a single attitude.



Eleigh said:


> The simple fact is that every common alternative remedy has been tested numerous times in the lab, and they remain alternative because they don't work. The ones that do work cease to be alternative, and become mainstream medicine.


 I also disagree with this statement, it is very broadly worded and is an over simplification of the process of testing and approving drugs and treatments.

Yes I take some vitamins, not 50 mind you. But, I have tried this but it is not followed by lemon water every morning, colonics, or a myriad of herbal supplements applied in various ways. I take prescription drugs and vitamins, when i skip taking either for a few days I can feel a difference in my self/my body. Yes there is probably a placebo effect and actual effect of these things. But as self reporting is used heavily within the medical community, it is sufficient for me. I go to the doctor and they say "how do you feel", they then give a prescription or advice to follow. Days or weeks later I go back, they ask "how do you feel" again self reporting to show the efficacy of treatments. It seems to work for me, but this is an oversimplification of the knowledge and personal experience of the doctor and as my self as well. Testing in a lab is limited to controllable factors, which may or may not be present in the people or circumstances tested. Unfortunately, exclusion of knowledge is typical in lab testing, if not then the testing would not be able to determine relationships between a drug or treatment and its effect on a subject. I guess I am saying be careful with broad statements and the If A plus B then D arguments.


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## smelvis (Sep 7, 2009)

Sorry I really don't want to post again in this thread but I am. The Modern Pharmaceutical is driven by money, Like the Government paying $10,000 for a toilet seat, Some cancer treatments are in the many thousands of dollars per dose, So you can trust them all you want. They do cost studies of at what age is a human worth saving in concert with insurance companies and Politicians in their pocket. It is and has been for a long time about the money. The Rich can afford it and live, The rich miraculously get moved to the top of the transplant list. Did I say I think it's all about the money?

Sure so snake oil types are exactly the same, well it didn't cost me anything to try Allises idea I just went to the kitchen got a tablespoon and did it.

The testing and approval process is just as bad there is a drug I could use that is sold everywhere but the US and it has proven to work as well as another patented drug that costs me several hundred a month, I will soon probably stop it since insurance is ending. So again did I say I think it's about the money?

Luckily many Doctors are at least still ethical (mine is an Angel) and just as angry about the rising costs and many of us are. Okay done but unless your a Mod don't say this is off topic as most of the recent posts are as well.

The whole world is all about money, Prove me wrong!


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## capttrips (Jun 25, 2012)

:closed_2:


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## asmartbull (Aug 16, 2009)

The OP's thread is pretty straight forward and
went side-ways pretty quick.

If you thoughts aren't relevant to the topic, keep them to yourself.......


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## doomXsaloon (Jul 25, 2011)

well, heck, my 2 cents...
there are soooo many things we humans cannot understand, measure or explain, much less "prove." 
Part of the comedy (and tragedy) of being human is our thinking that we can, in fact, understand, measure, explain, and prove everything. Just think--as evidence--of all of the myriad "discoveries" we have made, only to later discover more that either supports or refutes our original discovery. So much of what we think we "know" only scratches the surface or isn't even true at all! 
Moreover (now I;m up to my 3 cents...), so much of what we do and believe cannot be "proven," nor does it have to be....think about how much in our lives--on our planet--is based on our simple yet powerful _heart_felt or "gut" beliefs, intuition, and faith.
The love for ourselves, our family, and friends (and puffers here!).....our deepest convictions....our spiritual beliefs and practices....cannot be "scientifically proven" or explained, or recreated and studied in a lab. If we lived our lives constantly demanding "proof" of everything, we'd be so limiting our experiences....the wonder, marvel, beauty of so much that exists.
There are things that we, as magical, yet flawed, beings cannot "know," yet we put them into practice every day; indeed, they make up the core of our existence.


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## capttrips (Jun 25, 2012)

I'm going to go drop acid :hippie: and come back later.:deadhorse:


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## doomXsaloon (Jul 25, 2011)

capttrips said:


> I'm going to go drop acid :hippie: and come back later.:deadhorse:


exactly. See....now you're gettin' it!!:bounce:


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## BrunoBlack (Jul 9, 2012)

There is an argument for avoiding mouth cancer.....that you should smoke out your ass...just saying not everything people say online is a good idea.

If I had a penny for every time some one gave me some hairy fairy advice....Plus no time to smoke doing 60000 different things daily, my favourite being smoke your cigar through a 2 foot tube stuffed with pipe filters, to prevent cancer.

Seriously folk here know the risks. They will doubtless get the treatment when they see their doctor. I get the lecture every damned time even when I broke my bloody leg WTH.


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## Quine (Nov 9, 2011)

doomXsaloon said:


> well, heck, my 2 cents...
> there are soooo many things we humans cannot understand, measure or explain, much less "prove."
> Part of the comedy (and tragedy) of being human is our thinking that we can, in fact, understand, measure, explain, and prove everything. Just think--as evidence--of all of the myriad "discoveries" we have made, only to later discover more that either supports or refutes our original discovery. So much of what we think we "know" only scratches the surface or isn't even true at all!
> Moreover (now I;m up to my 3 cents...), so much of what we do and believe cannot be "proven," nor does it have to be....think about how much in our lives--on our planet--is based on our simple yet powerful _heart_felt or "gut" beliefs, intuition, and faith.
> ...


This is true, but because so much of what life is really about (truth, beauty, goodness, imagination, creativity, love and much else) lies outside the realm of physical determinism. No one would say that Ohm's law, or the effect of gravity on a ballistic object are unknown or in dispute. Biology occupies a gray area only because it is complex and not yet completely understood, but we are much closer to having good explanations of those mechanisms than we are say to our sense of beauty. Close enough that separating outrightly fraudulent claims from possibly effective strategies for preventing disease is usually (though not absolutely always) possible and not too hard to do in most cases. Preventing cancer is one of the big holy grails of the present age and as much subject to snake oil today as was infectious disease 100+ years ago. Even when we are sure about some of the macro causes (e.g. tissue exposure to the products of tobacco combustion) we have no choice but to couch our language in probabilities. Smoking cigars no more guarantees that I will get mouth cancer, than not smoking them (and any other tobacco use) guarantees I won't. In this complex arena (unlike ballistics) there are too many uncontrolled variables for our current science to say anything with absolute assurance. But at the same time, that doesn't mean that all preventative suggestions are thereby worthy of serious trial.


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## smelvis (Sep 7, 2009)

asmartbull said:


> The OP's thread is pretty straight forward and
> went side-ways pretty quick.
> 
> If you thoughts aren't relevant to the topic, keep them to yourself.......


Oh Sh*t That's twice now sorry Al Hope everyone does.


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## hardcz (Aug 1, 2007)

I think this thread has mutated from lets try some hippie oil swishing to I smoke how I want because I'm a bad ass and screw you all for telling me otherwise.

Mayhap this train, which I helped derail can go on and we can discuss the oil swishing. I'd be interested in finding out from those not as lazy as me, if any studies had been done to find out if there was anything in the before/after/control or something along that matter.


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## smelvis (Sep 7, 2009)

hardcz said:


> I think this thread has mutated from lets try some hippie oil swishing to I smoke how I want because I'm a bad ass and screw you all for telling me otherwise.
> 
> Mayhap this train, which I helped derail can go on and we can discuss the oil swishing. I'd be interested in finding out from those not as lazy as me, if any studies had been done to find out if there was anything in the before/after/control or something along that matter.


I'm an old dude who is doing it some of us can use all the help we can get.


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## hardcz (Aug 1, 2007)

smelvis said:


> I'm an old dude who is doing it some of us can use all the help we can get.


how often, and how long have you been doing it, any before/after feeling from when you started till now?


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## Eleigh (Jun 8, 2012)

hardcz said:


> I think this thread has mutated from lets try some hippie oil swishing to I smoke how I want because I'm a bad ass and screw you all for telling me otherwise.
> 
> Mayhap this train, which I helped derail can go on and we can discuss the oil swishing. I'd be interested in finding out from those not as lazy as me, if any studies had been done to find out if there was anything in the before/after/control or something along that matter.


In all seriousness, I'm guessing that it would also work to prevent colon cancer if administered as a colonic? I'd be very interested to know if that was/is a common practice at health spas etc. it would seem logical...


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## smelvis (Sep 7, 2009)

hardcz said:


> how often, and how long have you been doing it, any before/after feeling from when you started till now?


just once a day since I posted first about it, maybe a few I'm retired barely know it's Friday. My mouth feels cleaner and my teeth are cleaner. I brush and use mouthwash after. Can't hurt. Don't use more than a teaspoon like she said the gag factor kicks in, also as she said slowly move it around and don't swish fast. I was the tester LOL


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## Eleigh (Jun 8, 2012)

smelvis said:


> just once a day since I posted first about it, maybe a few I'm retired barely know it's Friday. My mouth feels cleaner and my teeth are cleaner. I brush and use mouthwash after. Can't hurt. Don't use more than a teaspoon like she said the gag factor kicks in, also as she said slowly move it around and don't swish fast. I was the tester LOL


The cleaner idea makes some sense when you remember that Romans used to clean themselves by applying olive oil to the skin and then sloughing it off.


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## johnb (Feb 20, 2012)

you should try it and let us know the results


Eleigh said:


> In all seriousness, I'm guessing that it would also work to prevent colon cancer if administered as a colonic? I'd be very interested to know if that was/is a common practice at health spas etc. it would seem logical...


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## Eleigh (Jun 8, 2012)

johnb said:


> you should try it and let us know the results


I wasn't volunteering! But smelvis has intrigued me. For all the bashing I've done of the lack of theory, I'll try the swishing and report back impartially what I think to it.


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## smelvis (Sep 7, 2009)

Good luck with the thread guy's hard to follow when I have people are on ignore. I have said enough my opinion is not in doubt.

Thanks Allise.


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## Eleigh (Jun 8, 2012)

Sorry guys, I'll stop posting this thread. I've pm'd smelvis extending the olive branch but I guess he won't get it?


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## asmartbull (Aug 16, 2009)

Folks
While I don't want to close threads, this one has been off topic and getting personal.
If anyone is experimenting with this, feel free to start another thread


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