# Howdy Please be Angry if you need!



## smelvis (Sep 7, 2009)

:help:

Howdy Folks
I am one of the old farts my name is Dave :wave:

I am posting this because Puff is so much different and IMHO not in a good way. For those of you who don't know me I am someone who is in the top ten of number of bombs sent, It was nothing to send 10 to 25 bombs at a time and do it often. I stopped because it stopped being about sending friends a gift or a newbie a welcome to puff bomb. See back then we didn't expect or want retaliation. In fact I would say not to retaliate but pass it on or even better donate it to the troops my favorite charity.

Forgive me if I am wrong or reading it wrong but what I see is not purty in my mind. I see some who send bombs fully expecting cigars back and in many cases again IMHO the person is also expecting better cigars than they sent. Please also remember this is not all I see and it is the extreme example sorta the worst case scenario.

I also see plenty of friendly banter that in my opinion goes way over the top, In one recent thread a newer person related it being us older guy's not being understanding enough or not able to get their particular sense of humor. First yeah I am kinda old but you all forget what you are learning is stuff we have already done. So that argument is just plain silly.

What I see is just plain disrespect. Now before you say it's an age thing I will quickly call bull do do as at least half or more of my friends are at least 20 years younger than me. I if I had to point to a starting point it would be bombing groups, which also means at some point I can also be to blame as I was in one of if not the 1st group of bombers. But read the first part of this post we seldom posted in the bomb thread at all unless it was an important bomb which then we would banter some but I can't remember it ever getting out of hand.

A little story I recently retired and am traveling across our Great Country and the purpose was to enjoy my well earned time to play. The 2nd part was to start a thread keeping people updated with photos and stopping all over herfing with anyone from Puff that wanted to smoke with me, My treat of course since I was able to fit inside my 36 foot 5th wheel somewhere between 6000-7000 all but a few hundred are all HTF and quality cigars. The third part was to stop and smoke with as many Troops and Veterans as I can find, This third part I am still going to do regardless.

Now I still log onto Puff daily but seldom read more than a few minutes as there is simply nothing more tiring than sifting through all the bomb threads and they seem to be all there is and when I do find something interesting again I am so tired and sometime angry at the outright disrespect I just log out and go to another of several boards which BTW this is not a problem.

Now I will always be a member but can't see any reason to post my travels and certainly do not want to meet even half of Puff now so it's one of those why bother doing it here at all things.

When I was young yes it was a long time ago I new it all but at least I was not arrogant about it. Please don't think I am talking about you or get mad at me. Unless of course you are feeling guilty 

In closing Puff because of the Troops will always be my favorite board, The rest in my most humble voice is now that I am retired these boards are really not so important, Don't get me wrong after seeing a sunset and smoking a Cohiba on the beach I would have loved sharing photos with my friends here of which I still have hundreds and to those I am very sorry it has come to this for me. 

Don't get me wrong bombing is fun if done with a little class and for the right reason!!!

Now if you read this whole mess written by someone with zero high school please forgive the mistakes and I Thank You.

If you are one who is hurting my beloved Puff well shame on you. If not and you are my friend I say this with Much Love and happiness and wish you nothing but the best life has to give!

Dave & Elvis


PS
Please do not bombard my PM inbox I have said all I want to and debating this is not gonna happen by me.


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## Stiks (Dec 3, 2012)

Great post Dave, Don'y know you from Adam but you sound like a stand up guy. Have fun Herfing with the vets and troops and enjoy all you can bud.

P.S. Tell Elvis I said hi!


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## jphank (Apr 29, 2012)

Great post Dave. I get what you're saying. I am loving paying it forward! 

PS. You never gave me your cell phone, all I have is your old home phone!


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## hawesg (Jun 9, 2012)

Well said Dave, I for one don't expect anything in return for anything I send out. I do expect to continue to learn a great deal from the people here. I joke about getting my revenge when ever anyone has very generously taken the time to brighten my day but I don't mean it in a direct way, more in the sense of when I see that things are going well for them I'll feel good. That's not to say that eventually I won't end up sending them a little something but the two are completely unrelated. And you could not be more right about the troops.


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## Mante (Dec 25, 2009)

Dave is not alone in his opinions I can assure you all and like he stated, the main thing missing here is CLASS. Starting threads to dis each other & engage in one-upmanship is not in any way an example of class.

And to you Dave I say this, I stopped bombing a while ago for the exactly same reasons you state. Thankyou for being the one to finally state what numerous of us have been thinking. :thumb:

PIF every time people & your experience may just be enriched here.


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## mturnmm (May 18, 2011)

Dave my friend you are one of the best BOTL's out there and I agree with 100%. Thank you for saying what I have thought in recent months.


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## phager (Jun 28, 2010)

Very well said Dave! I agree with you 100%, and I agree that a lot of people need to look deep inside and find out _why_ they bomb. If it's for any other reason then to help out/gift a fellow B/SOTL then maybe you shouldn't send the bomb. I don't send bombs except when I think a person would like it, and is a good member of the community who has provided help or insight to the group at large.

I think we really need to make a shift back to where we started.


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## BigSarge (Oct 20, 2011)

Well said Dave. I do my best to stay away from the banter and just send out bombs that share what I can. I'm not always successful at the banter part and I've been guilty of retaliation, hmm now you've got me thinking. Hmmm.


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## asmartbull (Aug 16, 2009)

Great post and well said.
Dave, it may appear that you are in the minority,
but your not. Many share your sentiments. 

Happy roads to you.........


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## loulax07 (Dec 17, 2011)

Amen Dave, excellent post


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## lostdog13 (Jan 16, 2012)

Well said Dave. I am guilty of retaliation, and will heed the words of the wise man (please note that there is no sarcasm there, so please do not read any into it) and adjust some of my plans for the near future.

With so much being said on this topic lately and knowing how some of my banter and comments have sounded; I have to state in my defense that I have never expected and never will expect anything in return unless that is a prior arrangement (and in that case it is a trade and not a bomb). 

It makes me sad that you are traveling all over the country and we cannot get together to herf Dave. I spoke with you soon after joining Puff, and consider you one of the "old guard". Ya'll are the ones we are supposed to emulate.


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## ShortFuse (Jun 6, 2011)

Tashaz said:


> Dave is not alone in his opinions I can assure you all and like he stated, the main thing missing here is CLASS. Starting threads to dis each other & engage in one-upmanship is not in any way an example of class.
> 
> And to you Dave I say this, I stopped bombing a while ago for the exactly same reasons you state. Thankyou for being the one to finally state what numerous of us have been thinking. :thumb:
> 
> PIF every time people & your experience may just be enriched here.





asmartbull said:


> Great post and well said.
> Dave, it may appear that you are in the minority,
> but your not. Many share your sentiments.
> 
> Happy roads to you.........


I dont think it can be made much clearer than that. Happy Holidays everybody!


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

asmartbull said:


> Great post and well said.
> Dave, it may appear that you are in the minority,
> but your not. Many share your sentiments.
> 
> Happy roads to you.........


That's it right there the bottom line!
Peace my brothers!


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## Fuzzy (Jun 19, 2011)

Thanks. Dave. Though you may not read this, I appreciate what you did for me and countless other noobs to this forum. 

Your bomb to me, a noob with under 100 posts, insured that this, Puff, was a great place to hang out and learn about all things tobacco.

I have removed my address from the profile as it started to seem like if I was bombed, I had to bomb back. I did bomb a couple times but tried to keep it anonymous just so the person bombed would not feel the need to return what was not a favor but truly a way to give back to a forum that has given me so much.

I for one, will surely be at a loss at not being able to read and see pics of your exploits and meet-ups with those you herf with.


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## Michigan_Moose (Oct 11, 2011)

You are for sure not alone sir.


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## Guest (Dec 14, 2012)

Dave, I share the same sentiments. If you are passing along the Gulf Coast anytime after February, I hope you would make a stop at this troop's house and have a smoke!


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## meatcake (Mar 3, 2012)

My sentiments exactly. I think it is easy to get caught up in retaliation/aka revenge bombing as a noob but you tend to grow out of it as you progress on the site, make more friends and figure out that its really about the community. 
It seems the bombing threads have become increasingly hostile as of late when really the whole purpose of it is to be giving. 
I started my bomb crew to give back and especially to those who are new to the site and/or people we deem deserving. Which is exactly why our target this month was our puff troops. 
We never go in with the expectation of receiving any retaliation and that is the way it should be.


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## Oldmso54 (Jul 31, 2010)

#1. Dave is NOT the only person who feels like bombing is "out of control". That's why I've posted a thread on it in the past but honestly, DAVE's post really cuts straight to the heart of the matter IMHO.

#2. Yeah - I'm guilty as charged = part of a bombing group; retaliated when bombed; tried to go big or go home; and guess where I ended up? Retired from bombing and my addy not posted.

#3. All the threads, posts, discussions, admissions,etc. are wonderful but IF and ONLY IF, there is a noticeable, cultural change in the ACTIONS of puff members. Otherwise the words will mean nothing.

DISCLAIMER: I'm not so stupid or naive as to think people are going to stop doing whatever they damn well please when it comes to their cigars, bombing, joining groups, etc and I'm NOT advocating that. I think if we would re read Dave's post a few times and understand the "class", "gift" and "over the top banter" parts then we might get back to what bombing started out as. And this is just one man's opinion, no better or worse than anyone esles opinion here on Puff. 
Off my :anim_soapbox: now.

PS: Thanks Dave!! :tu


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## CigarShop (Oct 16, 2012)

After a few hours on how to reply to this thread, here is my response.
I have come to realize over the past week that by showing disrespect to the FOGS in here well was not my intention, it's just my weird sense of humor. If you ask the folks that have met me they will say that's just Pete being Pete.
About the MWM's and their intentions of getting better bombs back, was never our intention at all...In fact never even crossed our minds....Dan aka Stadawhovious, Andrew, aka Feldnak, and Nick aka King of Funk, splaatttt aka Jack and stonecutter have always been nothing but classy invididuals of this group...
I will continue to give every member in here the utmost respect, and once again if I have insulted or broken the sanctity of Puff once again I do apologize..Was NEVER my intention at all...

Pete


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## Merkonakis (Nov 10, 2012)

Very well said Dave... As a noob here on puff I am floored by the generosity of this community. But I also see how it appears the same group of people get bombed repeatedly, it's almost like they're passing cigars back and forth and grandstanding and trying to out do each other or build their reputation in the community. The trash talking has certainly deterred me from wanting to be a part of any bombing group(and yes I've been asked). If you make it through the Houston area, I'd love to meet you Dave. And I know I speak not only for myself when I say, we would love to see your pics/thoughts on the places you've visited during this well earned vacation. Thanks for making Puff a special place and for fighting to keep it that way.


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## David_ESM (May 11, 2011)

The premise of this thread is good and I agree with it. But I think most of the reflection on bombing would be better saved til after Christmas.

We all know people go nuts this time of year, and this place is no different. There is always a windfall of insane bombs this time of year, and that isn't necessarily a reflection of one upping people or what not. It goes down to the basic root that there are a ton of incredibly generous and caring people on this site. Many of which I am more than honored to call friends.

Even in my still fairly limited time on Puff I have seen bombs come and go in stages. This one will pass again as usual.


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## CeeGar (Feb 19, 2007)

Puff is a great place for so many things...info,friendship,discussion, and yes, even bombing. I understand that folks that are new to the hobby are exuberant and want to contribute. They may feel like bombing or bombing groups are a good way to be a part of the community from early in their membership. I do feel like the culture of bombing has gone too far, though. It should not be a sport or competition. Paying it forward and sending a gift should be something special, not just "the thing to do". People new to Puff and even those of us that have been here for some time will continue to enjoy the forum in their chosen way. I would just hope that the members perpetuating the pointless bombing will step back and rethink their reasons as to why they are doing this.


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## Gordo1473 (Dec 1, 2012)

Dave. Well said. I'm a new puffer and I come here to take in as much knowledge as I can. I love this site. I have not experienced anything negative here. I understand the concept of bombing but personally the PIF is awesome. Tried it the first time last week and received sticks I know nothing about but interest me. Sent one to a member with some sticks I've seen other members post about and a few I've enjoyed. I think over all that's what this community s all about, helping others learn and learn something new all the time. Smoke what you like, like what you smoke


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## StogieNinja (Jul 29, 2009)

Every six months or so, this happens. New puffers show up, see the generosity of the current community, want to take part, and come in a bit overzealously. Occasionally, really new noobs come in and asked to be bombed. Frankly, it's to be expected when people see Puffers giving away amazing cigars. People will want in on that action, and may try to take shortcuts to get there.

This is a community. As such, there is ebb and flow. People come and people go. This sort of thread, like David stated, needs to be brought up on occasion when things to get a little crazy. And we're going to have to do this again in the future, as a newer group of members comes in and gets involved. And that's ok! That's why I'm grateful for members like Dave, who aren't afraid to speak their mind unabashedly. It helps keep us youthful knuckleheads on track. Someday, we'll be doing the same thing for others.

These are great learning experiences for new members, and great reminders for those of us who have been around a while. And it's good for the community.

Things will change and evolve. That's ok. Bombing here has evolved into something a little more crazy than it used to be. LOBs, Squids, and the like decided to have fun with a little trash talk, a little joking, and some wild and crazy bombing runs, all of which was in good fun. That's ok too. Two friends might hit each other back and forth over and over again. The retaliation could be endless. None of that is _bad_, it's just _different_. I might get flamed for saying this, but some of you FOGs just need to be ok with that change to the culture.

That being said, those of us who are enjoying the fun definitely need to ensure that we are being respectful of those who came before us. We _do _need to be careful about the tone we set for noobs who show up and observe the fun. We _do _need reminders from the old guard about the spirit of this thing to ensure it doesn't come off the rails.

And noobs - just follow the rules, and the _spirit_ of the rules. Despite what a lot of people say, it's clear that many bombs are sent with the expectation of retaliation. I've felt the pressure to retaliate based on the sender's expectation in either communications here or in their note. I'm not just pointing the finger. Now hear me: I'm willing to freely admit that at times, I'm sure I've been guilty of _assuming_ there would be a response, which may have pressured the recipient into feeling they _had _to respond. It might not have been my intent to create that pressure, but it might have had the same effect as if it was. If I've done that do any of you, I apologize.

Now that both Dave and Aaron have started discussions on this topic, I'm sure we'll see a return to the original intent of Puff's bombing community. I'm not likely to stop bombing, nor am I likely to change my plans. And we Squids will continue to bomb those BOTLs and SOTLs who are helping make Puff a better place. We will all try to be more mindful of the way we communicate here, and chose words more carefully, to be mindful of how we appear to those who might not understand the banter.

I'm glad this has been brought up. It will need to be brought up again in the future, because people come and go, things ebb and flow, and because the community has new people joining it every day. And that's a great thing! The problem is a good one to have, because by and large, it means that Puff has fresh blood, that Puff is continuing to grow, that we have a lot of new members who are anxious -even desperate- to be involved in this wonderful community of ours.

So I think the question before us is not "how do we tone down the bombing", but "how do we better incorporate and educate our new members about Puff and what we stand for?"

I don't know as I have a good answer to the question yet, but it's certainly something I'm pondering.


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## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

The incredible character of the members of this community never ceases to amaze, inspire and excite me. Indeed, it is what keeps me active and and in touch with the enduring nature of what an honor it is to me to moderate such an incredible place.

Specifically, that members from both sides of an issue can come together and respectfully discuss something that is charged with enormous passion and potential for disaster. I doff my cap to everyone who's responded here and Dave's RG will never be the same.

A disclaimer, when I post on such matters, please remember what I've always said, I am first and foremost, a member of this fine community. As such, when I post on such a matter, it is as a member, not a moderator and these are merely my own, personal perceptions.

The issues, as I see them are few. No one wants to do away with sending gifts to other members. In the past, this was mostly done out of respect for someone having gone above and beyond in some way, in terms of contribution to the community. At some point, some members began sending gifts to new members, simply for joining, sort of a "welcome to my home" kind of thing.

One day, not so long ago, an extremely well-meaning member wanted to give back to a well-established member who's bombing activities, both in terms of quantity and especially, _quality_, were and remain legendary. This member realized that there was no way he, or any other individual, could possibly undertake such an effort alone, so he enlisted a couple of others in his project. All well and good, but then, all HELL broke loose. Within a matter of weeks, so called "bombing groups" were popping up like dandelions.

Another phenomenon was just around the corner. In the past, no one announced that they were sending a bomb. It was done mostly annonymously and you never heard about it until the bomb had hit and the recipient needed a way to say thank you. Suddenly, many people began blowing their horns, patting themselves and compatriots on the back, generally drawing attention to themselves. In some cases, some of us who read these posts and threads felt that it was more about the bomber, than the recipient.

Further evolution has seen bombing activity take a front seat, displacing other activities on the forums. What was for the longest time, a very minor sideline, suddenly became disproportionately visible. People began spending relatively no time contributing to the forum, in terms of sharing knowledge and insight, but rather stuffing cigars in a box and posting about it.

For those members who's time with us is limited, many use a forum tool called, "New Posts". If I had a nickle for every complaint I've fielded about the New Post feature being rendered useless, due to being overrun with nothing, but bomb information, I could easily retire, buy an island and become a full-time moderator.

The last element I will mention and likely the most important to me personally, is that of distraction. Members who would otherwise be contributing to the community in a far more valuable way, become side-tracked into thinking they have to find a way to participate in bombing activities, conversations and idle banter.

For those who began the bomb group phenomenon, I don't believe it to be a big deal. However, we now find ourselves in the midst of an internet generation, who sincerely believe that this is what Puff is all about, or at least the most important. This could not be farther from the case, but how do you reeducate them? We have members who've joined recently, seeing Puff as "the place where you get free stuff". This is not their fault, but rather what they've been told, read, or found on the internet. They see it as some twisted right of passage, a way to establish one's value on the forum and the best way to gain respect from the community. Again, nothing could be farther from fact.

The values and integrity of this community, which most of us hold dear and in a very singular place in our hearts, are understandably disturbed by these things. Some have even been made to feel as "an outsider looking in"; excluded. This part of the equation is intolerable as Puff has always been, by both it's nature and design, a place of in-clusion. All members here are equal and all are, or at least should be judged solely on their contribution, sharing their knowledge with others, asking poignant questions, creating value and, above all, their character.

Again, to be clear, I do not want gifting to go away. I want it to remain healthy and active. By the same token, I would prefer that it's focus perhaps revert to it's original intent.

Just my tuppence.


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## Questionablesanity (Jul 24, 2012)

Okay so here is my noob observation. When I first started here on Puff I had also just started smoking cigars. I quickly found that people around here were very helpful and tolerated even my ridiculous noob questions. So I stuck around and started exploring the site more and then I found the BOMB section. My first view on bombing did not come from any individuale person, but instead it was just the seemingly overwhelming amount of threads I would read. Now I should preface this by saying I have always been a bit of a socially awkward person and when I found the bomb section I panicked a little. I saw the awesome generosity and I did read the sticky that says "retaliation is not expected or required in any way" however my brain saw that as the same thing when your girlfriend says "don't get me anything for my birthday". I thought in order to gain the respect of the more experienced members I would need to return the favor if I ever got hit. So that being said I know I have acted "preemptively" because I expected/feared I could be hit and wanted to "fit in" or whatever. I am a very forgetful person and I was actually concerned that if I ever got bombed by anyone and then got wrapped up in work I would either wait to long or worse forget to send anything back. 

This brings us to the present. The best thing that I have done in regards to Puff is read a lot of the back log of post. I know that in one of the noob sticky post it suggest to do this and I defiantly agree. Through spending just simply more time reading on here I got a much clearer picture of what was actually going on. I realized that in my attempt to not disrespect someone I probably came off the exact opposite and I regret and am sorry for. At first I thought bombing was just a lot of random bombs and people randomly sending stuff back and then I figured out the whole group thing. I also came to realize that a lot of the back and forth comes from people who either know each other in real life or do the vherf thing. There is still defiantly a lot of random bombing to noobs but those are the ones that do not really have a ton of "retaliation" and so if someone is just looking on the surface (so to speak) they only see the big back and forth stuff. I have come to realize that absolutely no one, not even the natourious group battles, require or expect anyone to retaliate. 

Even though I have only been around for 5 months I have seen others who have had similar experiences. Like others have said, I see people race to their 100 post and then start bombing maybe for the wrong reasons and then it seems they either stop or learn the "real way". Like everything else in life Puff has a learning curve. Personally it is like when I was a kid and stuck a fork in the electrical outlet, it seemed like a perfectly obvious idea at first but I quickly realized that was not the way it was done. (I am not trying to come off as a noob no-it-all or anything and I am not talking about any one person, other than myself. Just posting my observation)

All that being said, I love reading the bombing threads. They are some of the most entertaining post for me. Now that I feel like I know what I am reading, I like the back and forth banter. Mostly I like the photos, I do not know what it is but I really enjoy looking at cigar photos. I think at the end of the day some people are like me and get the wrong impression at first but do come to see the error of our ways (hopefully before it becomes anything of an issue). I like to "bomb" some of the people I work with. Basically I am the only one I know that regularly smokes cigars and I am trying to get the others deeper into it so I have someone to talk to about it. For me that seems to be what works, for now anyway.


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## phager (Jun 28, 2010)

Herf N Turf said:


> Another phenomenon was just around the corner. In the past, no one announced that they were sending a bomb. It was done mostly annonymously and you never heard about it until the bomb had hit and the recipient needed a way to say thank you. Suddenly, many people began blowing their horns, patting themselves and compatriots on the back, generally drawing attention to themselves. In some cases, some of us who read these posts and threads felt that it was more about the bomber, than the recipient.


I kind of want to highlight this point. I'm as guilty as most of posting warnings when I send a bomb. It's been like that since I started here (and let's be honest, compared to many, I'm still very much a noob here) and I figured it was expected. I don't think I do it to get congratulations or virtual high fives from the community, but maybe sub-consciously I do, it wouldn't surprise me, since I've always sought approval from my peers.

You post has been the catalyst of an epiphany for me, Don. There really is no point, generally, in posting tons of warnings in the bomb section. I say generally since things like group/mass bombings of a particularly deserving S/BOTL do require organization, and there's always exceptions to the rule.

Even prior to this thread coming up, I've been thinking that I need to tone done my announcements of bombs. Frankly my joy from bombings come from knowing the happiness that will likely come from getting the mail with a priority mailer. Everything else is secondary. I don't need to be bombed because I do it (But, sure, we all love it when it happens). I just want someone to enjoy something I've enjoyed!

OK, New baby sleep deprivation must be kicking in, because I've been rambling more today then I have in the last 2 months


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## Brettanomyces (Jul 12, 2012)

The announcements of bombs had been a topic that had been on my mind, too, and in discussion in my group. At first, I did it only because it was what was done, generally speaking. Recently, I (and the group in general) have slowed down or stopped. I think the thought was, it simply wasn't necessary. It was the "thanks" being sent to a particularly generous or valuable member in dried leaf form that was important. I know it can be fun to post a DC, and watch the tension build as a bomb works its way across the country, but maybe it would be good to consider if such an announcement is worthwhile before automatically posting it. In some cases, I'm sure it's fine. Just maybe not all the time. As always, for whatever it may be worth.


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## StogieNinja (Jul 29, 2009)

Here's the thing about warnings though... they're hilarious, and fun! I've posted a warning recently, and I have a fun little script planned out and everything for the launch itself. A lot of us really enjoy reading the well-planned-out posts of someone about to launch, or launching. Watching what happens is a lot of fun. It makes everyone feel more a part of the camaraderie when we get to watch it unfold before our eyes.

Like Pat, I want someone to enjoy something I've enjoyed. In some cases, I want them to enjoy something I know they'll enjoy that I haven't even tried. But I don't see the harm in also wanting everyone to enjoy the anticipation, the guessing game, the joking and fun. It just makes the whole experience more involved, more _grand_. I know many disagree with me on this, but I love reading a Brain post, or a Pinhead post, because I know it's going to be entertaining, grand, hilarious, and the whole thread is going to be a lot of fun. It's not about grandstanding, it's about having fun.

Let's be careful not to, as my English professor used to say, "throw the baby out with the bathwater."


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## David_ESM (May 11, 2011)

Another very valid point was brought up in Puff Chat a few minutes ago and I feel it should be relayed.

There are also many relationships and events occurring that many casual forum readers are not seeing that can construe and alter how they view bombs.

There is a whole nother subdivison of relationships and friendships and such going on outside the basic forum. Through the linked puff chat, through off site V-Herfs, through in person herfs, through phone calls, emails, facebook, twitter and so on and so forth.

Many, MANY bombs are directly related to the events and friendships built in those areas that are then posted in the forum where someone who just reads the forum once a week just won't understand and can possibly misconstrue.

Just something to think about.


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## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

Playing devil's advocate here, Derek, but a couple thoughts:

First, I would question your use of "everyone", which is almost never accurate. "Many" might be closer.

Secondly, what some see as, "more involved, more grand, hilarious and entertaining", others might view as pompous, self-aggrandizing, garish and crass. Maybe it's my tenure (experience), age, antiquated sense of decorum, or all three.

I ain't worried about you, but for others who might take this the wrong way, I am NOT pointing fingers! No one, at least to my knowledge, is being called-out here. From what I see, people are simply expressing their opinions and, in my case, observations, in a typically for Puff, thoughtful and respectful way.

I agree, it's never good to, "throw out the baby with the bathwater". For me, the baby is the gift, but the bathwater is kind of tepid and manky and the baby pooped in it.


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## smelvis (Sep 7, 2009)

The needs of the many out way the needs of the few!


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## Brettanomyces (Jul 12, 2012)

smelvis said:


> The needs of the many out way the needs of the few!


...but should be restricted by the rights of all. There's a balance to be found here, I'm sure.


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## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

I am definitly treading the line of posting too much in this thread, but I do want to add some food for thought.

Threads like this are precisely how business gets done here at Puff. To a man, your moderator team have done everything, up to and including taking some fairly significant risks to ensure that Puff is a community FOR THE MEMBERS AND *BY THE MEMBERS*.

If you ever wonder how rules, policies, directives are made around here, read this and other like threads. This is how we get to know what YOU want and how you want your community to run.

I think everyone should congratulate themselves on their participation is this thread and others like it. When I speak of "value of contribution" and "gaining respect within the community", you're looking at it.


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## skfr518 (Jul 4, 2011)

David_ESM said:


> Another very valid point was brought up in Puff Chat a few minutes ago and I feel it should be relayed.
> 
> There are also many relationships and events occurring that many casual forum readers are not seeing that can construe and alter how they view bombs.
> 
> ...


I was trying to find a good way to put this in the thread but I think you did a great job my friend.


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## Scott W. (Jul 10, 2008)

Herf N Turf said:


> I am definitly treading the line of posting too much in this thread, but I do want to add some food for thought.
> 
> Threads like this are precisely how business gets done here at Puff. To a man, your moderator team have done everything, up to and including taking some fairly significant risks to ensure that Puff is a community FOR THE MEMBERS AND *BY THE MEMBERS*.
> 
> ...


Cant disagree here Don, well done everyone. I just posted something in the other thread that I hope makes sense.


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## Jordan23 (May 25, 2012)

Late to the party, but I wanted to say a few things. Typing on phone, so forgive the grammar...

I come to Puff for several reasons. One of the primary reasons is information. If Puff transforms in a way that is unacceptable (for lack of a better word) to the truly knowledgeable "old guard"; that sucks, and I believe it harms the community. There are several people who are just treasure chests of wisdom and information. *Dave is one of those people. I've never spoken with the man on the phone or in PM. But I've learned a lot just reading what he writes. I believe Puff as a whole is a better place because of people like him* So I believe we should treat senior member's (people who care and took the time to contribute to this place) concerns with care.

That said, things do change. The rookies become the vets and the vets become the retirees. The new guys (which by virtue of join date I am one-but I'm more of a loner) _will_ impart their own personality, style, and way of doing things to PUff overtime. It's just reality. IMO, whats important is that we continue to share the same basic ideas of what this place is about. I would like to think those would be along the lines of sharing, information, friendship, passion for cigars, respect, deceny, and friendships. We should always strive to keep those things in place. But the _ways_ in which those things are expressed will change as the people change. I'm 29 years old. When I drive past my old high school, I wonder, what the hell are those kid's wearing? But then I remember, I not supposed to "get" where they're wearing because I'm not 16 anymore.

Anyway, my two cents.

On another note, I've been here since May and I read my first bombing thread just this past week. Don (Herf N Turf) once mentioned how people on Puff tend to read/search the same sections. That's true for me, I never read the bombing sections. Lately, theres been "drama", so I wanted to see what the fuss is about. I dont really "get" them or their purpose (the posts, not the act). But thats cool, Puff is a large varied community.

I've received two bombs and have given less than five. I guess because I stayed out of the bombing section, I've never felt pressured to bomb people. If I did I would likely find another forum, because I didnt come here for that. Both of the bombs I received were totally selfless acts of kindness by people, who saw me dream about having a Cuban, and had means to make that come true. They didnt even _hint_ at wanting smokes back or wanting a thank you post, or a PM thank you. I did those things, because its basic manners. But their spirit of giving felt like giving. So I gave to others with that same intent. _Thats what bombing means to me._

peace


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## Brettanomyces (Jul 12, 2012)

I don't know if it's technically possible on the forum, given the software's capabilities, but is there a way to "subscribe" to a forum, rather than just a thread? I understand the need for a quick way to see new content ("What's New" link), and we have something similar in the "subscribed threads" link - a subset of everything that you'd like to see updated on the thread level. But is there a way to get a third option, so you can see the recent posts in the forums you'd like to see recent posts in, rather than everything? That might allow us all to get more detailed reports of what's new around here in the areas that really interest us.


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## Tritones (Jun 23, 2010)

Playing devil's advocate's lawyer's astrologer's confessor's psychic reader's counselor's best friend's room mate:

The bombing sticky says in part (or used to say, when I read it long ago) that posting a warning is a good thing - to build up excitement. For me, the best warnings were always the understated ones. A DC# with no other explanation. Epic. Now I see threads (not many, but a few) that say, "Look out, Fambambulabinglebong, I'm coming for you." That doesn't build excitement, it builds attention for the bomber. Nothing else, even if that wasn't the intent. No matter what you mean, when you say, "Whosits, I'm bombing you," you draw attention to yourself and you sound like a grandstander. Period. So, if it's not what you mean, CUT IT OUT. And if it is what you mean, CUT IT OUT.

There are no doubt bombs and retaliations and sneak attacks and frontal assaults and whatever that are based on relationships not found in the bomb forums. Maybe (and I do mean MAYBE) we should think about keeping the chatter inside those relationships. Just a thought. Or maybe half of one. If someone reading the forums doesn't have access to the back story, they're likely to get a skewed idea of the meaning of things.

For that matter, why do we post about bombs? Not as a forum, but one by one, each of us - why do we post about bombs? If they are gifts between friends, then thanks and other acknowledgments could just as well stay between friends. I'm not saying that the bomb forum is a bad thing, or that nothing should be posted there, but somehow it seems that there is a balance that we have leaned away from. And I don't think it has to do with Christmas - it's been building for much longer than that. I got tired of the bomb forums at least a year ago. Now, the fact that I've lost interest in that part of the board doesn't mean much. Until you add it to the number of people who have told me the same thing. A dozen of my Puff friends, at least. And I don't have a gazillion friends around here - a dozen is a pretty large percentage, and suggests there may be a lot more people who feel the same way.

I'm tempted to suggest a month-long voluntary New Year's cease-fire, in the hope that something may reset while it's turned off, and the whole thing might run better when it restarts. But I'm not sure enough of that idea to really suggest it, just to throw it out as a suggestion of a suggestion.

Thank you for taking the time to read this, and if you didn't read it, I just might give you a cigar.


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## mjohnsoniii (Sep 9, 2007)

smelvis said:


> ...The third part was to stop and smoke with as many Troops and Veterans as I can find, *This third part I am still going to do regardless.*


Dave, are you stopping in Mid-Missouri (and when) on your travels? I'd love to sit back and have a cigar or two with you! God knows there aren't many puffers in or around my base. :frown:



Tashaz said:


> Dave is not alone in his opinions I can assure you all and like he stated, the main thing missing here is CLASS.


AMEN, brother!!!



asmartbull said:


> Great post and well said.
> Dave, it may appear that you are in the minority,
> but your not. *Many share your sentiments.*


That is so true. Just recently there was a new member that literally came out and asked to be bombed. And even left several of us negative feedback after we "scolded" him for doing this. Needless to say he is no longer a community member. I've been a member since 2007 (with a 3 year hiatus due to my Germany assignment) and still consider myself a noob. The generosity of the B/SOTLs here continues to amaze me. I've never sent a bomb with an expectation of a return bomb, 1. because I was so new and couldn't afford the "higher end" sticks, and 2. because I didn't possess enough knowledge to even know "what" I sent in the first place. Just say'n...



Aninjaforallseasons said:


> ...we Squids will continue to bomb those BOTLs and SOTLs who are helping make Puff a better place. We will all try to be more mindful of the way we communicate here, and chose words more carefully, to be mindful of how we appear to those who might not understand the banter.


HO, HO, WHO'S NEXT...:rotfl:



Herf N Turf said:


> I am definitly treading the line of posting too much in this thread, but I do want to add some food for thought.
> 
> Threads like this are precisely how business gets done here at Puff. To a man, your moderator team have done everything, up to and including taking some fairly significant risks to ensure that Puff is a community FOR THE MEMBERS AND *BY THE MEMBERS*.
> 
> ...


Don, I know you don't get overly involved in a lot of the discussions here but you're definitely one of the guys that commands attention. ESPECIALLY when those pretty *BLUE LETTERS* pop up in someone's thread. Seriously, I for one enjoy and appreciate your thoughts/comments on issues whenever you DO decide to give them. As with all the other FOGs. :lol:


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## CigarGoogler (Sep 23, 2012)

Aninjaforallseasons said:


> Every six months or so, this happens. New puffers show up, see the generosity of the current community, want to take part, and come in a bit overzealously. Occasionally, really new noobs come in and asked to be bombed. Frankly, it's to be expected when people see Puffers giving away amazing cigars. People will want in on that action, and may try to take shortcuts to get there.
> 
> This is a community. As such, there is ebb and flow. People come and people go. This sort of thread, like David stated, needs to be brought up on occasion when things to get a little crazy. And we're going to have to do this again in the future, as a newer group of members comes in and gets involved. And that's ok! That's why I'm grateful for members like Dave, who aren't afraid to speak their mind unabashedly. It helps keep us youthful knuckleheads on track. Someday, we'll be doing the same thing for others.
> 
> ...


Well said, Derek.


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## sweater88 (Jul 31, 2011)

Jordan23 said:


> They didnt even _hint_ at wanting smokes back or wanting a thank you post, or a PM thank you. I did those things, because its basic manners. But their spirit of giving felt like giving. So I gave to others with that same intent. _Thats what bombing means to me._


So maybe the current bombers are not doing such a bad job conveying the spirit of the act.

Let me qualify the rest of this statement by saying I have immense respect for Dave, and the rest of the "old guard" he is referring to in his post.

As a guy that has been somewhat actively bombing lately, I can't help but feel grouped in to the Puffers that are causing the issues Dave is referring to, even though I know he is not pointing fingers at anyone in particular.

I would venture to guess that no one has ever sent a bomb with any malice. These are gifts we send to each other. Everyone has their own idealistic opinions about everything, not just Puff. The problem is, they are just opinions, and mine may not be the same as yours. As in any societal microcosm, there will be vast differences in ideals, morals, beliefs, opinions ect. One great thing about Puff, is we tend to police the boards as a community. People with bad intentions are smoked out (pun intended) fairly quickly, and in most cases chased away. That leaves a large community of generally good people, but that doesn't mean we are all going to think the same way. Some banter is fun to me, but sometimes it can get out of hand. I for one, have no problem pming someone to tell them I think they are out of line, or being disrespectful. In almost every instance , it has been a noob, and they almost always convey back to me that they meant no disrespect, they just didn't know where the line was. Personally, I try never to be disrespectful, but that doesn't mean I don't come off that way sometimes. I would hope that someone would point out to me if they thought I was, so I could clear it up, or correct my behavior.

As for the rules about 90 days and 100 posts, they are most definitely being circumvented, and that is not a good thing. I have never given an addy to someone who I shouldn't, according to the rules. I am guilty however, of not being a better community member by calling attention to it when I see it. That should probably be one of things we police as a community, not just something we leave to the mods, as it is an issue dealing with our own safety and security.

This is a good place, full of generally good people. It is now, and I know we will keep it this way.


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## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

sweater88 said:


> This is a good place, full of generally good people. It is now, and I know we will keep it this way.


Post edited to save space, but I encourage everyone to read it.

Joe makes several wonderful points here. My reading of this thread and, especially Dave's OP, does not read as though we are dealing with, "a problem"!

Generosity and zealous giving could only be seen as a 'problem' by some dull-witted, pious, anti-erudite, minimalist, religious zealots. I think I speak for all of us, when I say, we as a community welcome generosity and value it.

What this IS, is a _discussion_ undertaking _how _it's done and it's various platforms and expressions.

Again, it's not a debate of "whether, or not", but of taste and intent.

If you remove the taste and cloud the intent, perhaps you diminish the act and it's effect.

Another great point to which Joe alludes, is that of "self policing". This cannot be overstated! I am ever wary of referring to the duties of a moderator on Puff, but I dare it here. Can you imagine, in your worst nightmare, a group of five guys trying to police a mass of 50,000? At any given time, there are 200 members viewing General Cigar Discussion, 100 viewing Cigar Accessories and another 1,000 viewing everything else. Approximately 90% of these are posting. At it's highest level, Puff sees about 5000 new posts per day. For those who are math challenged, that's a ratio of 1000 posts, per mod, per day. Ever consider quitting? Oh, hell yeah!

HOWEVER, by investing our undying trust in the membership of this community, we create a greater sense of community. By empowering each and every member, we garner a sense of personal ownership; individuals invested in maintaining and fostering a deep and compelling sense of duty, not just in themselves, but in each other.

Without this, we would have anarchy and would not survive a week, let alone go on in perpetuity, as the finest group of men and women ever assembled on the WWW.


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

Herf N Turf said:


> Post edited to save space, but I encourage everyone to read it.
> 
> Joe makes several wonderful points here. My reading of this thread and, especially Dave's OP, does not read as though we are dealing with, "a problem"!
> 
> Generosity and zealous giving could only be seen as a 'problem' by some dull-witted, pious, anti-erudite, minimalist, religious zealots. I think I speak for all of us, when I say, we as a community welcome generosity and value it.


I am curious as to what a Religious Zealot is is that the opposite of an atheist zealot and what business it has in this post? I am not a religious zealot but i believe in GOD and personally take offense to that remark. As i am sure the atheists shall take offense to the latter. You know the double standard that exists here is wearing thin. If i were to make a religious reference the post gets reported and my phone rings. Sad that it does not work the other way!


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## bpegler (Mar 30, 2006)

I'm pretty sure no one was saying religion is bad. A bit of hyperbole on Don's part to make a very important point.

Let's try to stay on topic, friends.


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## Cigar Noob (May 22, 2011)

I don't get involved in the banter a ton but I don't really mind it. I think someone being crazy generous can do nearly whatever they want. Some post 20 DCs in one post... some make 20 posts about one DC. I think there is a fine line someone risks crossing when there is that much banter. 

I don't want to say that it has jumped the shark because there are still tons of great guys/gals doing it for the right reason. Because they want to. If some get a little extra motivation by yyping out a few jabs... more power to them IMO. Yes, there seems to be peak every once in a while where the talk outweighs the action but like David said.... there is an ebb and flow and this will soon and but also return. 

if you are bombing just to bomb... that is missing the point. If you are bombing because you know someone likes certain things, or mentioned not trying something that you have a few extra of and you send a care package out... you are doing it right. In the end, everyone also gets something out of bombing, it isn't 100% altruistic. In that respect I probably shouldn't judge who did it more for the right reason. Interesting topic. It may be boil down to newer members being overzealous and just wanting to fit in. They see bombing, they do it. They see banter, they do it.


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## smelvis (Sep 7, 2009)

Mods please close this thread it is silly to have two threads going about the same thing. 

Thank You


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## Blaylock-cl (Apr 28, 2006)

Going to have to close this as requested by the OP.

There were some good conversations in here; and I appreciate everyone keeping it on point and respectful!


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