# Yet another Heartfelt beads thread



## Trackmyer (Jun 6, 2014)

I realize there are numerous threads on beads already. I do not wish to jack some other OP's thread so decided to give some info myself.

As a long time Boveda user and believer Ive been very happy with how EASY it was to use them. Throw em in and done type easy. However, now a couple months in on my first wineador and the 65's that are currently maintaining RH are not performing as well as Id like. They keep RH below 70 but the RH has been reading lower at top and bottom and higher in middle of wineador for a while now. So I decided on trying these beads that everybody raves about.

Ordered up 2 lbs of beads, a large net sock, and 4 large blue capped tubes from them at 65%. Let me tell ya, if you havent had a smooth transaction with a cigar company in a while, give these folks an order. Very professional, and fast. Order went extremely smooth, with email updates, tracking, the works.

Now, Ive read the threads here and at other forums on these beads and had a general idea of what to expect out the gate. Doesn't change the fact that they had me scrambling about last night fretting over my storage like I havent done in a while. After getting the beads in the tubes and in the net sock I spritzed them down with distilled water to roughly 60-70 percent of them being clear. Figuring, as directions stated to maintain my cabinet at 65% like the beads were rated for.

A single tube was placed on each of the top 4 shelves in the wineador with the large sock being placed on the bottom. 

All 65% Boveda packs were pulled out of wineador at this time with cabinet 66 top/67 middle/66 bottom.

Within an hour I notice all calibrated wireless hygro's climbing. At 2hrs in the readings go to 70 top/ 72 middle/ 72 bottom. 
Really? Are you friggin kidding me. I get the Boveda's into a holding pattern waiting to rush in if the numbers get any higher.
The four hour mark, and the wineador is reading 72 top/ 73 middle/ 73 bottom. Thats it, Boveda's into the wineador to try to get things down a bit. At this point Im double checking the packaging and verify that I read correctly, the beads are 65%. The how the hell is my humidity jumping to 73.....ok calm down. I remember reading to bake the beads at 250 for 30-45 min. To dry back out. I believe I shouldn't have to,if a 60% hydrated batch of 65rh beads should maintain 65rh then thats what they should do. Didnt say anything about having to have completely dry beads to maintain 65%rh. So back to the story. 

I baked these beads for 45 minutes at 250' and dried them out. Now they looked white, not 100% of them, but damn close. Without the beads in the wineador the Boveda managed to bring the RH back down to 68% but Im determined to get past this learning curve with the beads to achieve the 65 that I want. So back into the wineador. If your thinking my ambient RH might be mixing stuff up a bit, no. My ambient room temp at this time was 68 degrees with a running RH of 51%. So if anything, opening the door or the wineador should cause a drop not a climb. I let the beads cool off before putting them back in the tubes and sock, then into the wineador. Left the boveda's in there as a security measure. Wouldn't you know, the friggin RH starts climbing again. By now its way past midnight and with work in the morning I threw in the towel and said screw it. I'll leave them be and check reading in morning.

Came downstairs to leave for work this morning and wineador is sitting 69 top / 70 middle / 69 bottom.

Im sure that once I have a hands on feel for the way these act I will be able to maintain a true 65%. Until then, learning curve.

But for all those saying this is the "Easiest" way of maintaining humidity,:BS:BS. I still say Boveda is way easier.
keeping fingers crossed that all is well when I get home after work today..and by well, I mean, hoping my RH isnt back into the 70's. Damn its gonna be a long day...


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## JCubed (Mar 5, 2014)

I've noticed this myself. I have 2.5 lbs of 65% HF beads spread out. Wineador is usually closer to 70 than 65 in all zones. I'd rather it err on the dryer than wetter side.

Drying the beads only works for half a day or so.

And the ambient humidity in the room is always lower than 60%.

Not sure what the deal is. I was thinking of trying the kitty litter route, but the beads weren't cheap, and KL is supposedly more difficult than the beads are.


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## ShaneG (Apr 9, 2014)

Sounds stressful- if boveda and beads are both supposed to maintain 65, can leaving them all in together till the beads really acclimate be the right decision? Boveda will keep it from spiking and allow the drier beads to wet up and the saturated beads to dry a bit


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## Trackmyer (Jun 6, 2014)

Yeah, If the beads still look white when I get home tonight I will pull the Boveda's and see if it goes up again. Boveda is pretty clear about not mixing different type of humidity devices but I can count on them to not allow the RH to get completely outta control. 
Which left me wondering, how these beads are made. When creating a bead of such tiny size, what is different about the 60% bead vs the 65 vs the 70? Dont know. 
Cigars take days to change percentages of RH I know, just doesn't change the fact that Im not a fan of seeing the number 73 on my hygrometer.....ever..


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## JCubed (Mar 5, 2014)

It's my understanding that it's the ratio of salts/chemicals on the beads that differentiate, not the size of the beads.


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## Gdaddy (Sep 20, 2012)

The first mistake you made was spraying them with water. NEVER spray silica beads directly with water. Spraying them does NOT energize some sort of magical humidity control. It is the worst thing you can do. 

It's just good common sense that putting wet beads in your humidor will raise the RH level and that's exactly what happened. The correct path would have been to do nothing. Just put the beads in the humidor as they were with no spray and see where they land. If the RH was still too high then bake the beads to dry them out. If the RH was to low then place a damp sponge in the humidor until desired level is reached. It really is very simple but you NEVER spray water directly on them.

IMO heartfelt does an injustice to people by suggesting a spray of water. It makes no sense. If you want to damage the beads causing them to crack and become less efficient then spray them. Silica does an excellent job of humidity control when used properly.


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## Gdaddy (Sep 20, 2012)

Trackmyer said:


> Which left me wondering, how these beads are made. When creating a bead of such tiny size, what is different about the 60% bead vs the 65 vs the 70? Dont know.


The beads are silica crystals. The beads are all made the same and there is NO difference. The 60% rh beads have been placed in a room that's 60% rh and have acclimated to that level of moisture. The same beads can be bumped up to 65% by exposing them to 65% air or 70%. However, they are NEVER sprayed directly with water to raise the RH.

Yes, it's that simple. People seem to think the beads are microscopically different causing them to seek specific RH levels of 60% or 70%. This is NOT how they work.

BTW... Kitty litter crystals are silica crystals also just a lower quality.


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## Trackmyer (Jun 6, 2014)

Gdaddy said:


> The first mistake you made was spraying them with water. NEVER spray silica beads directly with water. Spraying them does NOT energize some sort of magical humidity control. It is the worst thing you can do.
> 
> It's just good common sense that putting wet beads in your humidor will raise the RH level and that's exactly what happened. The correct path would have been to do nothing. Just put the beads in the humidor as they were with no spray and see where they land. If the RH was still too high then bake the beads to dry them out. If the RH was to low then place a damp sponge in the humidor until desired level is reached. It really is very simple but you NEVER spray water directly on them.
> 
> IMO heartfelt does an injustice to people by suggesting a spray of water. It makes no sense. If you want to damage the beads causing them to crack and become less efficient then spray them. Silica does an excellent job of humidity control when used properly.


If you check their website, they even sell a syringe to hydrate the beads with. They, as well as others here have suggested to look for a percentage of clear vs. white. The site even goes as far as informs you how many teaspoons of distilled water to use per bag, tube, etc. With all suggesting a given percentage of white to clear quoted from their site "The optimal is to have 80% to 90% of the beads clear. ".

So you are correct in that my "First mistake" was following the instructions provided by the company selling the product. How silly of me.


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## Trackmyer (Jun 6, 2014)

Gdaddy said:


> The beads are silica crystals. The beads are all made the same and there is NO difference. The 60% rh beads have been placed in a room that's 60% rh and have acclimated to that level of moisture. The same beads can be bumped up to 65% by exposing them to 65% air or 70%. However, they are NEVER sprayed directly with water to raise the RH.
> 
> Yes, it's that simple. People seem to think the beads are microscopically different causing them to seek specific RH levels of 60% or 70%. This is NOT how they work.
> 
> BTW... Kitty litter crystals are silica crystals also just a lower quality.


Now THAT, makes a lot more sense. Thank you.


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## JCubed (Mar 5, 2014)

Gdaddy said:


> The beads are all made the same and there is NO difference. The 60% rh beads have been placed in a room that's 60% rh and have acclimated to that level of moisture. The same beads can be bumped up to 65% by exposing them to 65% air or 70%.


I guess I'm lost. I thought they were designed to regulate the rH to a specific percentage. If the above is the case, how would they keep anything at, say, 65% in a 70% environment, or vice versa?


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## JCubed (Mar 5, 2014)

Trackmyer said:


> If you check their website, they even sell a syringe to hydrate the beads with. They, as well as others here have suggested to look for a percentage of clear vs. white. The site even goes as far as informs you how many teaspoons of distilled water to use per bag, tube, etc.


Wiser-than-I BOTLs on here have also said the passive method (with a wet sponge) is the best, although slowest, however they do spray their beads. Anything I've seen only suggests that pouring water or completely submerging is a no-no. This is the 1st I've heard that spraying is just as bad.

Hopefully I haven't damaged $100+ worth of beads.


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## ShaneG (Apr 9, 2014)

Reading instructions? Of course that was your first mistake- everyone knows you eat them to maintain humidity, duh!


edit: real question too- I'm with jcubed- are we suggesting they are not in fact a humidification medium but rather just a buffer? If they only hold the humidity of the environment wouldn't you be better off just lining your storage in cheap correctly humidified cigars, as a full environment is bore buffered than an empty one.

the beads have to do something.


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## Gdaddy (Sep 20, 2012)

Trackmyer said:


> If you check their website, they even sell a syringe to hydrate the beads with. They, as well as others here have suggested to look for a percentage of clear vs. white. The site even goes as far as informs you how many teaspoons of distilled water to use per bag, tube, etc. With all suggesting a given percentage of white to clear quoted from their site "The optimal is to have 80% to 90% of the beads clear. ".
> 
> So you are correct in that my "First mistake" was following the instructions provided by the company selling the product. How silly of me.


I would challenge heartfelt to come here and explain why they suggest putting water on silica crystals.

Here is everything you'd want to know about silica gel...

http://talasonline.com/photos/instructions/silica_gel_info.pdf

• The direct addition of water through mist spraying or immersion is not recommended, since 
the high heat of decrepitation causes silica gel beads to crack and fragment. Although silica 
gel retains its hygroscopic properties, the overall response time of silica gel in a tray will 
slow down because of denser packing from the mix of large beads and smaller fragments.


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## Trackmyer (Jun 6, 2014)

I expected different views and opinions. Without some sort of chemical breakdown of the material and how its made (which would be way over my head anyways), I'll never know for sure anyhow.

I'll figure it out, just will take me some time to get the kinks out, and see what works best for my situation. I do believe Im on the right track with using HF beads vs. other stuff for the wineador. And not to worried about getting desired effect in a day. The spike in humidity just hasn't been something Ive had to deal with in any cigar storages using Boveda's. But like I said earlier, for the wineador they just can't seem to get me to the "65" that I desire. And sitting on roughly a brick of each in 65, 69, and 72, I have no desire to buy another of 62's.

I appreciate the tips, and advice, and like always I will weigh my options and go from there.


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## Gdaddy (Sep 20, 2012)

ShaneG said:


> Reading instructions? Of course that was your first mistake- everyone knows you eat them to maintain humidity, duh!
> 
> edit: real question too- I'm with jcubed- are we suggesting they are not in fact a humidification medium but rather just a buffer? If they only hold the humidity of the environment wouldn't you be better off just lining your storage in cheap correctly humidified cigars, as a full environment is bore buffered than an empty one.
> 
> the beads have to do something.


They are an incredible buffering agent. Your cigars and the wood inside the humidor are also a buffering agent as well but don't have anywhere near the capacity of silica gel.

"Silica gel is a chemically inert, non-toxic material composed of amorphous silicon dioxide. It has
an internal network of interconnecting microscopic pores, yielding a typical surface area of 700-
800 square meters per gram; or, stated another way, the internal surface area of a teaspoon full of 
silica gel is equivalent to a football field. Water molecules are adsorbed or desorbed by these 
micro-capillaries until vapor pressure equilibrium is achieved with the relative humidity of the 
surrounding air."


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## JCubed (Mar 5, 2014)

Trackmyer said:


> not to worried about getting desired effect in a day.


Hopefully I'm a fluke case, but I've had my wineador up and running since May and I've been having the rH spiking issue the whole time (yes, it's plugged).


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## Trackmyer (Jun 6, 2014)

Gdaddy said:


> They are an incredible buffering agent. Your cigars and the wood inside the humidor are also a buffering agent as well but don't have anywhere near the capacity of silica gel.
> 
> "Silica gel is a chemically inert, non-toxic material composed of amorphous silicon dioxide. It has
> an internal network of interconnecting microscopic pores, yielding a typical surface area of 700-
> ...


Ahh, but these beads are not Silica Gel as their site states"

_"Are humidification beads the same as ordinary desiccant silica gel?" Definitely NOT! Humidification beads give off water vapor, as well as absorb it, to maintain a specific RH which is ideal for a cigars particular need. This is not the case with *silica gel* which can only absorb water then must be dried out after it is saturated. *By nature silica gel is not meant to control humidity, only lower it*. Humidification beads are the premier product for precise control in terms of performance, cost effectiveness, and simplicity.

One good point to remember is humidification beads have an indefinite life span. There is nothing to wear out and all that is needed to maintain them is either the addition of distilled water or the drying out of the beads if they become water logged."_


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## MDSPHOTO (Sep 10, 2013)

JCubed said:


> I've noticed this myself. I have 2.5 lbs of 65% HF beads spread out. Wineador is usually closer to 70 than 65 in all zones. I'd rather it err on the dryer than wetter side.
> 
> Drying the beads only works for half a day or so.
> 
> ...


Not to poopoo the beads because I have a lot of them and like them, but my KL has been easier to maintain constant Rh with less attention than my beads.


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## JCubed (Mar 5, 2014)

MDSPHOTO said:


> Not to poopoo the beads because I have a lot of them and like them, but my KL has been easier to maintain constant Rh with less attention than my beads.


I'm interested in making the switch, David. How do you get them to regulate both ways at a specific rH?


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## Trackmyer (Jun 6, 2014)

JCubed said:


> Hopefully I'm a fluke case, but I've had my wineador up and running since May and I've been having the rH spiking issue the whole time (yes, it's plugged).


oh brother....:doh:

Im sorry to hear that. In an ideal world we would live in some area that would be great for cigars to mature without worry of controlling the RH level ourselves.

Have you tried using any Boveda in yours?

Im determined (stubborn even) in my desire to get 65%. Just a matter of time till I figure it out. In humidors, tuppers, and coolers, it was easy. The addition of the peltier and fans of a wineador has thrown me a twist that I just have to figure out how to overcome.


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## Trackmyer (Jun 6, 2014)

MDSPHOTO said:


> Not to poopoo the beads because I have a lot of them and like them, but my KL has been easier to maintain constant Rh with less attention than my beads.


David, are you doing anything to the KL other than just putting it in your wineador?


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## MDSPHOTO (Sep 10, 2013)

Trackmyer said:


> David, are you doing anything to the KL other than just putting it in your wineador?


Nope. In 6-months I've spritzed them twice.


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## Trackmyer (Jun 6, 2014)

hmmm, perhaps I will swing by the store on the way home and pick up some KL as a backup plan.

If I remember other threads correctly, I just need to make sure they are silica, and unscented. Correct?


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## Gdaddy (Sep 20, 2012)

Trackmyer said:


> Ahh, but these beads are not Silica Gel as their site states"
> 
> _"Are humidification beads the same as ordinary desiccant silica gel?" Definitely NOT! Humidification beads give off water vapor, as well as absorb it, to maintain a specific RH which is ideal for a cigars particular need. This is not the case with *silica gel* which can only absorb water then must be dried out after it is saturated. *By nature silica gel is not meant to control humidity, only lower it*. Humidification beads are the premier product for precise control in terms of performance, cost effectiveness, and simplicity.
> 
> One good point to remember is humidification beads have an indefinite life span. There is nothing to wear out and all that is needed to maintain them is either the addition of distilled water or the drying out of the beads if they become water logged."_


They CLAIM their beads are different and are somehow 'Programmed' to maintain specific levels and that is pure non sense. Advertising hype. So what are they? Some kind of proprietary gel that only they have discovered? Nope. They are museum quality beads that have been 'conditioned' to buffer a specific RH. That's it. Nothing more.

This is what they say...

_"Heartfelt Humidification Beads were first developed for the art and museum industry and are used extensively by that industry for the stable storage of priceless artifacts and art. The manufacturer I purchase the beads from also supplies places such as the Smithsonian and The National Archives."_

Yep, that's silica gel.

They go on to say...

_"How do I add distilled water to the beads when they get dry? / how much should I add"
Just add distilled (and ONLY distilled) water to the beads. The recommended method is to buy a cheap spray bottle (Amazon has bottles for hairstyling that are under $5 and Prime applicable that work great for this) and mist the beads with distilled water when they are dry. You can also pour water on the beads,* but you do risk them cracking. Supposedly, this has no negative change on the bead's lifespan, however it will saturate the beads and temporarily lower their ability to absorb humidity* (two way street - if the beads are soaked, they can't absorb more moisture from the air). Aim to have 80-90% of the beads clear, and 10-20% white._

They even say they will crack if you put water on them! Because that's what silica gel does.. it cracks and become less efficient.

Please take the time to read the scientific paper written that I posted then you'll know what the museum industry uses. I think the Heartfelt fellow should read it also.


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## Trackmyer (Jun 6, 2014)

Gdaddy said:


> Please take the time to read the scientific paper written that I posted then you'll know what the museum industry uses. I think the Heartfelt fellow should read it also.


Roger that, will check it out now.


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## MDSPHOTO (Sep 10, 2013)

JCubed said:


> I'm interested in making the switch, David. How do you get them to regulate both ways at a specific rH?


Trial and error with quantity and spritzing. I made the mistake like most people do of wetting them then throwing them in, after the RH wouldn't come down I tossed em and started again, hey their cheap! Ultimately found a quantity and wetness that maintains 67-68 in heat of summer and cold of winter. Again, I will state I am not against HF beads and use them in my desktops and my small tupperdor.


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## Gdaddy (Sep 20, 2012)

Trackmyer said:


> hmmm, perhaps I will swing by the store on the way home and pick up some KL as a backup plan.
> 
> If I remember other threads correctly, I just need to make sure they are silica, and unscented. Correct?


Correct.

This time try this...

Spread the crystals out as open as possible. Don't close them in bags. An open tray is much better. The more open air exposure will make them work faster.

You don't know what the RH level of the crystals are right from the bag. You must take them and dry them out either in the oven or you can also use the microwave which is faster. Take a small cereal bowl full and microwave them for 60 seconds. Then stir with a spoon and watch the steam dissipate. Repeat this until no more visible steam is present. (2 or 3 times) Let cool for a few minutes and it's ready to go. You want them dry.

Place them in the humidor.

This is your starting point and should see a drop in RH in a few hours or over night. Hopefully the rh is too low. This is a good thing. You can then 'condition' the air in the humidor by placing a small damp sponge to raise the RH of the air. Once the desired level of say 65% is reached remove the sponge and your crystals will be 'conditioned' by the air and the crystals will act as a buffer to maintain that level.

By doing this you'll learn how to raise or lower the rh to whatever level you want without direct contact with water.


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## garublador (Jun 5, 2014)

Gdaddy said:


> They CLAIM their beads are different and are somehow 'Programmed' to maintain specific levels and that is pure non sense. Advertising hype. So what are they? Some kind of proprietary gel that only they have discovered? Nope. They are museum quality beads that have been 'conditioned' to buffer a specific RH. That's it. Nothing more.


Do you have a source for that claim? My understanding is that there is a difference in the make up of different beads. They vary the proportion of salts to silica to "program" the beads to buffer at a specific RH. The paper you linked to earlier supports this:



the paper said:


> The moisture adsorbing properties of silica gels are affected by factors such as capillary pore size or the inclusion of hygroscopic salts, resulting in a wide range of performance. [5] Therefore, it is important to compare the buffering capacity of different types of silica gels to determine which silica gel has the best performance for a specific application.


If it's all the same stuff, then what do they mean by "different types?"


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## Gdaddy (Sep 20, 2012)

garublador said:


> Do you have a source for that claim? My understanding is that there is a difference in the make up of different beads. They vary the proportion of salts to silica to "program" the beads to buffer at a specific RH. The paper you linked to earlier supports this:
> 
> If it's all the same stuff, then what do they mean by "different types?"


It's not my claim. Heartfelt is the one claiming their product is "programmed" and suggesting theirs is not ordinary silica gel. It has everyone believing it's some special crystal from another planet and it needs to be activated by spraying water on it. Nonsense.

Yes, there are different densities and salts added that perform better at different RH levels. But whether from Art-sorb, Rhapid gel or RD gel they are all silica gel. The thought that the little crystal can be 'programmed' so accurately as to maintain RH in 5% increments is silly and misleading and there is no significant difference between the rate of response of different types of silica gels during adsorption or desorption.

Another misleading statement by Heartfelt..._"You can also pour water on the beads, but you do risk them cracking. Supposedly, this has no negative change on the bead's lifespan"_

Baloney. This reduces the lifespan as well as the efficiency of the silica. This is because ALL silica gel cracks when exposed to water even when mist spraying.

_"The direct addition of water through mist spraying or immersion is not recommended, since 
the high heat of decrepitation causes silica gel beads to crack and fragment. Although silica 
gel retains its hygroscopic properties, the overall response time of silica gel in a tray will 
slow down because of denser packing from the mix of large beads and smaller fragments."
_


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## WNYTony (Feb 12, 2014)

Wow this is quite an interesting thread.
Track - I just finished my wineador in early July and just put in 2 lbs of beads (tubes in each drawer and more on the top and bottom) and let it level out from there.
At first I was getting lower rh at top and bottom than middle but changed from one fan on bottom to one on top and on on bottom and everything has leveled right out.
Beads were 65 but previously I had been using 69 Bovedas in humi. It has now dropped down to constant 66 throughout.
My plan is to watch when it goes low and toss in a bunch of Boveda 65's to get back to 65 and let the beads then hold it from there.
Can always recharge the Bovedas and use as needed.
Not a proven thing but just wanted to let you know what I'm working on.


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## Trackmyer (Jun 6, 2014)

Thanks Tony, Im still hoping my drawers from Forrest come in soonish. The wineador is at max capacity already with loaded cedar trays from cheaphumidors on each of the wire shelves along with odd and end small cigar groups stuck wherever I could squeeze them. And the last thing I wanted to do is give up precious space to a butt load of beads. But It will work itself out.


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## Gdaddy (Sep 20, 2012)

I want to make something very clear... Heartfelt beads are an excellent product when used properly. The directions for using them is wrong and should be corrected. After all, it is the reason the OP is having the problems he is having. He has also damaged his beads in the process.

Used correctly they should last indefinitely. However, used the way they suggest they will slowly turn into dust.

As I said earlier, kitty litter is a lower grade of silicon gel and is of lesser quality but can still be made to work just fine.


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## garublador (Jun 5, 2014)

First I'll say we can ignore all of the claims about how to add water to them. We're in agreement there.



Gdaddy said:


> It's not my claim. Heartfelt is the one claiming their product is "programmed" and suggesting theirs is not ordinary silica gel. It has everyone believing it's some special crystal from another planet and it needs to be activated by spraying water on it. Nonsense.
> 
> Yes, there are different densities and salts added that perform better at different RH levels. But whether from Art-sorb, Rhapid gel or RD gel they are all silica gel. The thought that the little crystal can be 'programmed' so accurately as to maintain RH in 5% increments is silly and misleading and there is no significant difference between the rate of response of different types of silica gels during adsorption or desorption.


You seem to be contradicting yourself. You're saying that all silica gel beads are the same, yet different ones use different densities of salts. You're saying they can't be "programmed" to maintain different RH's, yet they can be made to perform better at different RH levels. It seems like you're making some semantic argument that doesn't really matter.

It's my understanding that these beads are made from some sort of salt and silica gel in different proportions that allow the beads to act as a buffer at a specific RH given some sort of tolerance. So if you have 65% beads, they have a different ratio of salt to silica gel than 75% beads. If the ambient RH is 70%, the 65% beads will gain water to lower the ambient RH and the 75% beads will lose water to raise the ambient RH. If the beads are saturated, they can't take on more water. If they're dry they can't lose more water.

What about that is inaccurate that isn't some minor semantics?


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## Gdaddy (Sep 20, 2012)

garublador said:


> First I'll say we can ignore all of the claims about how to add water to them. We're in agreement there.
> 
> You seem to be contradicting yourself. You're saying that all silica gel beads are the same, yet different ones use different densities of salts. You're saying they can't be "programmed" to maintain different RH's, yet they can be made to perform better at different RH levels. It seems like you're making some semantic argument that doesn't really matter.
> 
> ...


I'll try to be more specific.

In the industry of silica gel there are different compositions that will offer a product to perform better in a different 'zone' of RH. A range from which to choose depending on your needs. We are not talking specific numbers but rather a performance range of 15 points give or take. Then they are brought to a specific rh by acclimating them.

It's a common misconception that the Heartfelt beads are somehow built to exacting specification to meet certain rh numbers by design. No. It's all the same beads that have been acclimated to meet certain specific RH.

For example... I could take a bag of Kl silicon gel and acclimate it to, let's say 65%. When you get it, take the 65% kl and put it in a Tupperware container with a hygrometer and guess what it will read? Bingo 65% like magic. I could use and acclimate the same kitty litter for 60% or 70%. However, if you spray it with water it won't be at that level anymore. Which is exactly what happened to the op when he got his beads.


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## JCubed (Mar 5, 2014)

So if distilled water directly touching the beads pretty much renders them useless-ish, can they be salvaged by being baked/zapped, or is it a lost cause?


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## Gdaddy (Sep 20, 2012)

JCubed said:


> So if distilled water directly touching the beads pretty much renders them useless-ish, can they be salvaged by being baked/zapped, or is it a lost cause?


Every time water touches them they split and crack and become less efficient. They're not useless just less effective due to permanent damage. You'll begin to see dust and small chips at the bottom of the container.


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## garublador (Jun 5, 2014)

First, there's a disconnect between what I understand and what you're saying and I'm trying to iron it out. I'm actually asking these questions and the answers I'm getting are unclear.

Second, can you please answer my question? What did I write that was inaccurate that wasn't minor semantics?



Gdaddy said:


> I'll try to be more specific.
> 
> In the industry of silica gel there are different compositions that will offer a product to perform better in a different 'zone' of RH. A range from which to choose depending on your needs. We are not talking specific numbers but rather a performance range of 15 points give or take. Then they are brought to a specific rh by acclimating them.
> 
> ...


So what's teh difference between beads that have been "acclimated" to different RH's. Won't beads that are acclimated to 75% lose moisture if the ambient RH is 70% and beads that are acclimated to 65% gain moisture if the ambient RH is 70%? What about the beads changes when they're "acclimated?"

How about this. Say you have your 65% beads in a humidor and after a while it starts reading 60% (the beads don't have enough water to maintain the humidity). You put a wet sponge in there. Will the RH get to 65% and stay there wile the beads take on moisture or have the beads now been "acclimated" to 60% and they'll just take on moisture until saturated? What about 70% beads? If it's the former, and they get to their rated RH and stay that way, then what is the physical difference between the 65% beads and the 70% beads?

The "all the beads are the same" claim is what I'm looking for a source for. Though I still say it keeps changing from "they're all the same" to "they have different amounts of salt in them).


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## imported_mark_j (Aug 18, 2013)

I have 2 lbs of beads in a Newair 281 loaded with Forrest cedar drawers and 400 cigars. I've had the wine cooler since March and started using it immediately. I got the drawers at the end of May. 

I put the beads into two open containers resting on the bottom of the wine cooler behind a cedar false-front drawer and two mesh bags full of beads on the top shelf. I've never spritzed the beads. It holds 64%-66% and never varies top or bottom more than that. About half of the beads are clear at this point, just from absorbing ambient moisture I guess. I am very, very happy with them.

Edit: It took about 2 weeks for the whole thing to stabilize. I was getting wild up and down variances whether the cooling unit was running or not (like 60% up to 72%). Once it stabilized at 65%, though, it has been golden ever since.


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## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

Gdaddy said:


> The beads are silica crystals. The beads are all made the same and there is NO difference. The 60% rh beads have been placed in a room that's 60% rh and have acclimated to that level of moisture. The same beads can be bumped up to 65% by exposing them to 65% air or 70%. However, they are NEVER sprayed directly with water to raise the RH.
> 
> Yes, it's that simple. People seem to think the beads are microscopically different causing them to seek specific RH levels of 60% or 70%. This is NOT how they work.
> 
> BTW... Kitty litter crystals are silica crystals also just a lower quality.


Umm... I believe the difference is that HF beads are high-density silica gel and that cat litter is low-density gel. This accounts for the fact that cat litter requires far more media to accomplish the same purpose.

To the OP, lemme see if I got this straight. Your humidor was already sitting higher than you wanted, so you bought beads. You got the beads and immediately proceeded to add more water to an already overly-moist environment, in which not only is the relatively small volume of air too moist, but so is everything else inside... the stuff that actually holds all the moisture. After all that, you were amazed that your humidity went even higher, so proceeded to dehydrate the beads... the stuff that holds the least amount of moisture. More amazement ensued when, after installing the freshly dehydrated beads, the RH didn't drop within a matter of minutes.

How'd I do?

1) Moist environment - don't charge media.
2) Moist cigars and wood - don't expect rapid change.

What you've likely managed is, to max out the moisture-holding capability of the volume of air inside the sealed system for the given density of said air. If the temperature were allowed to go up, you'd get even higher values and no amount of beads, packs, or faerie dust would touch it. All your stuff's just way too wet. I'd say it'll be close to two weeks with the door open, or a month of playing with the beads and a closed door to get where you want to go.


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## Drez_ (Jan 30, 2014)

garublador said:


> First, there's a disconnect between what I understand and what you're saying and I'm trying to iron it out. I'm actually asking these questions and the answers I'm getting are unclear.
> 
> Second, can you please answer my question? What did I write that was inaccurate that wasn't minor semantics?
> 
> ...


To chime in a bit..there is zero difference between beads acclimated to different RH's. That's the entire point of his argument, they are the exact same beads..except the 65% are stored at 65% relative humidity and sealed with that humidity. The are the exact same beads kept at 70%, and the exact same beads that are completely dry and are 0%. The only difference is the relative humidity they are stored and packaged at. Nothing changes about them. To answer your question..beads that are 75% will lose moisture if placed in a 70% environment, though it may not register as an instant loss. 65% will gain if placed in a 70% environment.

What he's basically trying to say is regardless of what you buy, you are getting the same beads. It's simply a matter of the upkeep and environment. If you want your beads to maintain 70% humidity, you can by 50% beads and bring them to that level by adding water into the environment to produce higher humidity. It's not that your beads will magically keep the humidity at 50%..They will eventually saturate to whatever level YOU stop adding humidity into, and hold it there for an amount of time.

This is the reason they need to be recharged regularly for people who open their humidors/coolers/winecoolers/tupperware regularly, because the humidity releases and without a source to replace it eventually the beads will dispense all of their stored humidity. They don't stay wet forever to hold 65%.

In honesty, the easiest way to use these (or KL for that matter) is with a minor secondary humidity source that only releases. (IE, The sponge and water which has no absorption properties.) You just have to get the balance right, and that will take a little tweaking and adjusting. Once you get your humidity to settle at 65%, then it should remain there as long as you keep the same level of water to provide humidity in the environment. If you allow the water to dry out, you'll notice your humidity eventually starts dropping. If you add too much water, it will eventually rise..

As an edit: There are different types of silica beads, that are designed to work best within certain ranges of humidity. From reading the included webpage, there are ones that work better within the 25-50% range, and others that work better in mid and higher humidity ranges. That would be the only "difference" in the types of beads, however all of the HF beads would fall into the same category, as there isn't that much of a range difference between any of the products you can by.. 60-75? Not exactly sure what they offer in terms of levels.


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## garublador (Jun 5, 2014)

Drez_ said:


> To answer your question..beads that are 75% will lose moisture if placed in a 70% environment, though it may not register as an instant loss. 65% will gain if placed in a 70% environment.


So in those two cases, assuming there are enough beads to be effective, will the 65% beads stabilize the environment to 65% and the 75% beads stabilize the environment to 75%? If so, how can the exact same beads produce two different results? If not, what will they both stabilize at?

What if it's the other way and you have 65% beads that sat in a sealed container until saturated and 75% beads that sat in a sealed container until saturated. If you put each of them in a humidor at 50% humidity what would the result be? Would the humidor stabilize for a while at 65% and hold that while the beads lost moisture? Would the 75% beads stabilize at 75%? Or would both beads give identical results?


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## MDSPHOTO (Sep 10, 2013)

Gdaddy said:


> I'll try to be more specific.
> 
> For example... I could take a bag of Kl silicon gel and acclimate it to, let's say 65%. When you get it, take the 65% kl and put it in a Tupperware container with a hygrometer and guess what it will read? Bingo 65% like magic. I could use and acclimate the same kitty litter for 60% or 70%. However, if you spray it with water it won't be at that level anymore. Which is exactly what happened to the op when he got his beads.


So if I read this correctly your saying that HF sells exactly the same product and that the only difference in buying the 60, 65 or 70 RH beads is that he has previously acclimated the same beads to each of those Rhs before sending to customers. Is that correct? And if that is correct, they should be dropped in an environment with a similar RH with no additional DW in order to maintain that stated RH? This is really more than I ever wanted to know about beads, but now some how I'm fascinated by this discussion.


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## JustinThyme (Jun 17, 2013)

This thread just gave me a headache ready.

I'm not going to argue any points, as to the make up of the HF beads. I was under the impression they had a balance of salts mixed in that dictates the humidity they are to maintain, just as Boveda packs do. Just passing on my experience.

I started my NewAir 280e with 2 lbs of beads. 1 lb in the bottom and 1/2 pound at mid and another half pound in the top. I put them in as they were and let it ride with empty boxes in it until my drawers came in and it sat at 65% until then. When the drawers came in I put them in a cooler to season. A few days later I popped them in the winneador. I left it sit and my RH began to drop. I pulled the beads and spritzed them and left it go again. A few days later a light spritzing and in a week after I put the drawers in I loaded it with sticks. A few days later the RH started dropping again so I lightly spritzed them again. After that I sat on 65% dead on top to bottom (I have a fan in mine too) for several months until I saw the RH drop to 63% then I pulled then and spritzed them again. In a year after I got it stable They have been spritzed once. Ive had the same experience with the King of the Wineadors only it has 4 lbs spread out in half pound bags and a chinese takeout bowl of left overs I had from before up in the top. In this one I vary by 2% from top to bottom but also the temp varies by 1 degree. Im sitting at 64% on the top and 66% on the bottom but this has a lot more space. I added a hydra LG with external fans and set it at 65% as well. Its working very well IMO.


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## Trackmyer (Jun 6, 2014)

Herf N Turf said:


> How'd I do?
> 
> All your stuff's just way too wet. I'd say it'll be close to two weeks with the door open, or a month of playing with the beads and a closed door to get where you want to go.


Starting point..

My wineador was at 66 top / 67 middle / 66 bottom with Boveda 65's in it.

I wish to get 65% at all three levels

I bought 65% HF beads (2lbs)

I read the instructions to hydrate the beads so that there was the correct amount of clear beads (Assuming that the instructions were to make the 65% beads work properly)

I removed the Boveda's, and put the HF beads into the wineador.

The RH of the air space in the wineador shot up into the low 70's.

I then dried these beads in the oven and placed them back in humidor, and at this time also have the 65% Boveda's back in the wineador as well.

My wineador is currently at 66 top / 68 middle / 67 bottom.

My goal is still to get to 65 top to bottom, with only one source of RH control.


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## Gdaddy (Sep 20, 2012)

garublador said:


> First, there's a disconnect between what I understand and what you're saying and I'm trying to iron it out. I'm actually asking these questions and the answers I'm getting are unclear.
> 
> Second, can you please answer my question? What did I write that was inaccurate that wasn't minor semantics?
> 
> ...


I think every question has been answered as clearly as possible.


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## Gdaddy (Sep 20, 2012)

Drez_ said:


> To chime in a bit..there is zero difference between beads acclimated to different RH's. That's the entire point of his argument, they are the exact same beads..except the 65% are stored at 65% relative humidity and sealed with that humidity. The are the exact same beads kept at 70%, and the exact same beads that are completely dry and are 0%. The only difference is the relative humidity they are stored and packaged at. Nothing changes about them. To answer your question..beads that are 75% will lose moisture if placed in a 70% environment, though it may not register as an instant loss. 65% will gain if placed in a 70% environment.
> 
> What he's basically trying to say is regardless of what you buy, you are getting the same beads. It's simply a matter of the upkeep and environment. If you want your beads to maintain 70% humidity, you can by 50% beads and bring them to that level by adding water into the environment to produce higher humidity. It's not that your beads will magically keep the humidity at 50%..They will eventually saturate to whatever level YOU stop adding humidity into, and hold it there for an amount of time.
> 
> ...


Thank you! It's good to see someone understands. It really is that simple.


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## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

Trackmyer said:


> Starting point..
> 
> My wineador was at 66 top / 67 middle / 66 bottom with Boveda 65's in it.
> 
> ...


Well, I think you're now on the right track with dehydrated beads. Wineadors are vastly different animals, yet our every impulse is to treat them as though they were traditional humidors. The fact that they are plastic and heavily sealed is the culprit. Even with drawers in them, they are still very different. There's simply not enough volume of cedar to make hardly any difference. I have well under a pound of media in mine and still, I battle high, rather than low humidity. If I had it to do over again, I don't know that I'd even season the six drawers in it. I think I'd simply toss in 8-9 Bovedas and my beads and call it a day. As always, broad distribution is the key to success. Surface area is key where beads are concerned. If possible, I'd try to avoid anything more than about 1/2" deep. Unfortunately, this takes up a lot of room and might not be practical. That's why I've always thought the sheets would be the ideal solution; completely cover the floor and ceiling and most of the back with them. I doubt I'd charge them either, rather allow them to simply absorb the excess moisture from the always-too-wet new cigars I put in it. Point being, it's just incredible how little water these things take.

Anyway, I think patience is the only thing left to add to the system.


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## Gdaddy (Sep 20, 2012)

MDSPHOTO said:


> So if I read this correctly your saying that HF sells exactly the same product and that the only difference in buying the 60, 65 or 70 RH beads is that he has previously acclimated the same beads to each of those Rhs before sending to customers. Is that correct? And if that is correct, they should be dropped in an environment with a similar RH with no additional DW in order to maintain that stated RH? This is really more than I ever wanted to know about beads, but now some how I'm fascinated by this discussion.


Yes. Exactly right. Tweaking them up and down is an easy process but NEVER spray water on them.


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## LGHT (Oct 12, 2009)

Wow I can't believe the level of impatience some people.. You waited a couple of hours and panicked about a few degrees?? I've been using the same beads for almost 10 years and have had zero problems with them. 

You guys do realize when they pack, store, and ship cigars they are not EXACTLY at 65% the entire time right?? The OP panicked and cooked his beads after waiting a few hours?? This makes no sense at all. Do you think you cigars will be ruined if they hit 70% for more than a minute? Do yourself a favor and try to grasp the concept that a cigar will be just fine if it's off for a few hours lol. 

I guess the concept of patience is lost with youth these days. Then again I probably have cigars older than the OP in my humi as we speak


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## SeanTheEvans (Dec 13, 2013)

I heart Heartfelt beads. 

Easy and great in a humi. Or a cooler. Mine all sit at a rock solid 65%, even when I open everything daily JFF.

TBH, when I added a buttload of 65% Bovedas to all my coolers to help aid the HF Beads, suddenly I started getting 66% and 67% readings here & there. Nothing to cry about, but it makes me question having both in at the same time.


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## Trackmyer (Jun 6, 2014)

LGHT said:


> Wow I can't believe the level of impatience some people.. You waited a couple of hours and panicked about a few degrees?? I've been using the same beads for almost 10 years and have had zero problems with them.
> 
> You guys do realize when they pack, store, and ship cigars they are not EXACTLY at 65% the entire time right?? The OP panicked and cooked his beads after waiting a few hours?? This makes no sense at all. Do you think you cigars will be ruined if they hit 70% for more than a minute? Do yourself a favor and try to grasp the concept that a cigar will be just fine if it's off for a few hours lol.
> 
> I guess the concept of patience is lost with youth these days. Then again I probably have cigars older than the OP in my humi as we speak


Lol, thanks for the hit on RG to. As to your oldest cigar, if they're over 40's than yeah you might have one older than me.

As to the rest of your post I see no reason in your hostility. I'm not insulting you personally, so chill out.

Ive ran cigar humidors for going on two decades now, this is however my first wineador and first time using beads. And I understand well enough that cigars are not going to climb RH in hours, was venting my frustration at my event and looking for tips, WHICH I RECEIVED in a positive fashion.

I will not take a stab back at your RG, and thanks again for your post.


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## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

LGHT said:


> Wow I can't believe the level of impatience some people.. You waited a couple of hours and panicked about a few degrees?? I've been using the same beads for almost 10 years and have had zero problems with them.
> 
> You guys do realize when they pack, store, and ship cigars they are not EXACTLY at 65% the entire time right?? The OP panicked and cooked his beads after waiting a few hours?? This makes no sense at all. Do you think you cigars will be ruined if they hit 70% for more than a minute? Do yourself a favor and try to grasp the concept that a cigar will be just fine if it's off for a few hours lol.
> 
> I guess the concept of patience is lost with youth these days. Then again I probably have cigars older than the OP in my humi as we speak





Trackmyer said:


> Lol, thanks for the hit on RG to. As to your oldest cigar, if they're over 40's than yeah you might have one older than me.
> 
> As to the rest of your post I see no reason in your hostility. I'm not insulting you personally, so chill out.
> 
> ...


Gentlemen,

I don't have any concept of when, or why, this thread went sideways, but I'd really like to get it back on track. Granted, Trackmyer may have made a mistake and may have been victimized by the muse of impatience. If there's anyone on this forum who's never made a mistake, or courted that muse, I'll be the first to throw the first stone. No thread is going to please everyone all of the time, but there's no time when it should be taken personally, nor on a personal level. If people dinged my RG every time I made a mistake, I'd be -99 million. If people dinged my RG every time I expressed frustration, I'd be banned.

Everyone has a bad day.

Kumbaya.

:grouphug:


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## Gdaddy (Sep 20, 2012)

It's time for a group hug.. come on... gather round :hug:


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## Trackmyer (Jun 6, 2014)

Gdaddy said:


> It's time for a group hug.. come on... gather round :hug:


Lol. eace:


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## JustinThyme (Jun 17, 2013)

Ill just go back to something I was told as a young boy. "He who makes no mistakes makes nothing" I have to just about pound this into the head of my 15YO perfectionist daughter. She gets upset when she doesn't ace a test, doesnt block a goal in soccer or lacrosse (shes a goalie for both), misses a dig in Volley Ball, does a face plant on the high school track or just about anything else. My favorite way to express it.....Sh!t Happens.....


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## Drez_ (Jan 30, 2014)

JustinThyme said:


> does a face plant on the high school track..


I think I'd get upset too..I imagine that hurts! :banghead:


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## JustinThyme (Jun 17, 2013)

Drez_ said:


> I think I'd get upset too..I imagine that hurts! :banghead:


Yeah but in the grand scheme of things it was a 4x400 relay, she got back up quickly and they won it, She was leg 2. Had to take her to the ER after to make sure she didn't break her nose! She is the Jock from hell! I had to make her drop one fall sport because we were all stretched too thin. She was playing eleite club soccer and HS Volley Ball at the same time and missed a soccer practice and was late to a VB game. I told her not only has her schedule become everyone elses in the family but that she is going to piss off both coaches and end up on the bench for both. (to her thats worse than a face plant LOL) Although she had 8 years into elite soccer that's what she dropped. Saved me the $3k a year it cost for her to play elite! HS wont let her play more than one at a time and at the beginning of the year they have to chose which sport they are going out for in each season. So now its down to VB for the fall, track for the winter and Lacrosse for the spring. Little turd got her first letter in Lacrosse in her Freshman year. Some places that's pretty rare, In this HS of 4000 kids its unheard of for a freshman to play varsity, let alone get a letter. They have 3 teams, freshman, JV and varsity for every sport. She skipped freshman in everything and was on JV VB and varsity Track and Lacrosse. Im just hoping that one of them has "Scholarship" attached LOL


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## garublador (Jun 5, 2014)

Gdaddy said:


> Read the PDF article I posted. It's very well explained.


Could you point me to the part of the paper that supports what you're saying? I didn't find anything in there about it. There was a bunch about how different beads will be more or less effective in different ranges and with different limits (i.e. going from 40% to 50% as opposed to going from 20% to 50%), but nothing about whether or not beads can be build to maintain a relatively specific RH.

I also couldn't find anything about the "acclimation" process. Could you point me to that?

Why would some beads gain water at a specific RH while some would lose water at a specific RH if they were both the same? IF both beads aren't fully saturated or totally dry, what makes them absorb water as opposed to give off water at any given RH? How does the "acclimation" change the bead to act differently under the same circumstances? In my example you say that both beads are identical and were acclimated to 60%, but if that were true why would the RH in the humidor change? Why wouldn't the beads just absorb more water to hold that 60% if that's what they're acclimated to?

I see the claims from Heartfelt and Boveda and they match up with most all anecdotal evidence. The claims you're making don't match up with either one and I haven't seen a source supporing those claims. There's the paper you linked to, and I could have missed it, but I didn't see anything about it in there. There was a lot about how to use beads to maintain certain RH levels, but nothing about choosing a specific RH level other than using the beads.


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## Gdaddy (Sep 20, 2012)

garublador said:


> Could you point me to the part of the paper that supports what you're saying? I didn't find anything in there about it. There was a bunch about how different beads will be more or less effective in different ranges and with different limits (i.e. going from 40% to 50% as opposed to going from 20% to 50%), but nothing about whether or not beads can be build to maintain a relatively specific RH.
> 
> I also couldn't find anything about the "acclimation" process. Could you point me to that?
> 
> ...


I didn't discuss Boveda.

I have answered every question you have asked and presented you with science instead of marketing non-sense in an effort to understand the simple use of silica beads.

Others here have understood the information. For some reason you refuse and want to go in circles asking the same thing over and over. So, if you want to believe that each bead can be 'programmed' to hit very specific RH numbers then go right ahead and believe it. You should also spray your beads with water because that's what they tell you to do and you certainly want to believe every word. So please... do it.


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## Gdaddy (Sep 20, 2012)

garublador said:


> i also couldn't find anything about the "acclimation" process. Could you point me to that?


5.1 conditioning silica gel outside the exhibit case


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## garublador (Jun 5, 2014)

Gdaddy said:


> 5.1 conditioning silica gel outside the exhibit case


That shows how to get your media into the EMC range for a specific RH you want, but doesn't say that it's impossible to make a material that has a wide range of EMC for any given value of RH. Look at figure 1. Compare regular density gel to Artsorb. They're way different. At around 28% EMC they're both around 55% RH. However, at 20% EMC the regular density gel is at 30% RH and the Artsorb is around 45% RH. Why can't the beads be created that have a really steep EMC curve at a relatively specific RH? That would mean that in some region, say from 20% EMC to 80% EMC, the RH would only vary from 63 to 67% (numbers totally made up)? So if you get the beads too wet (higher than 80% EMC) the RH would be somewhere above that and if they get too dry (lower than 20% EMC) the RH would be lower than that? Isn't that both the claim that Heartfelt is making and supported by all the anecdotal evidence bead users have had? Why is it impossible to tweak that curve so that steepness in the curve happens at closer to 70% or 60%?


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## Trackmyer (Jun 6, 2014)

OK, to break in with an update on my situation, and a tad more learning on my part.

Started last night with all 3 hygrometers reading 67-69rh

The first night I dried the beads in an oven. They never were all white, but the majority was.

After more reading here, about drying in a microwave vs. oven, as well as how they will shrivel a tad when they are completely dry. I decided to try the microwave.

This time Im only drying half of my total beads (1lb).

I placed one pound into a small pyrex dish the beads were about 1" deep. Dried them in microwave for 3 minutes. This dried the ones on top but the bottom ones were now wet and clear, and when looking into bottom of dish you could see moisture on walls of pyrex.

So I figured Id take a couple clean/dry paper towels and place them under beads, hoping that when moisture left beads the paper would absorb them allowing me enough time to dump them out without reabsorption. 

HAHA, another mistake on my part. I placed paper towels in larger pyrex, placed beads on paper towels, and microwaved for 3 minutes. I did not realize the amount of water that a dry paper towel holds. The beads came out of the microwave 100% clear and wet looking. Moisture was even between the paper towels and the side walls of the pyrex. Not the results I was expecting.

So back to the start. Beads in bowl without paper towels, spread out about 1/2" thick in bowl. Microwave for 4 minutes. Beads come out all white with some slightly wrinkled, and tons of steam coming off them. Success.

I place them back in the mesh sock, and allow them to cool off in my living room at 69', 51%rh. Then put them into the wineador. This morning my rh is dropped down to low 60's and I will leave the boveda 65's in there until every is close to 65 then pull the bovedas and let the beads handle it. Very happy at this point.

I read a post by Don not to long ago where he said that even though they may be white, they still may have a bunch of moisture in them. But when they wrinkle a bit, they will be dry. This is completely true. These things put off a bunch of steam, even the white ones. 

If I ever have to dry down the road, I will be using the microwave for sure. So much faster, and easier to see positive results.

Thanks to you brothers for your patience and guidance in this, its really appreciated.


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## LGHT (Oct 12, 2009)

Not trying to be insulting or anything, but I still don't understand the point of this thread? 

So your goal is to get all 3 levels at 65% all the time? What's the point of that? Do you think they will infuse more flavor if that exact RH is met or something? Do you think not having the humi at 65% on every shelf will take away from the cigar? 

My humi ranges between 65-70% and to be honest they all smoke great and I have never had a problem with them except when open a box and see excessive plum from time to time. 

Call me old school, but I just don't get the obsessive compulsive need to control RH not just in the humi, but at every level in the humi.


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## JustinThyme (Jun 17, 2013)

Just a quick bit of advice on drying. The best and fastest method I have encountered is my wife's 1800 watt blow dryer. You just have to be careful not to blow beads everywhere.


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## Trackmyer (Jun 6, 2014)

@LGHT No, its not really that they HAVE to be at 65%, but its what I would like to have. And when I buy a product that says its gonna give me 65%, that's what I expect. If I wanted 70 Id buy 70. This was one of the things I was mistaken about with this type of product.

I've seen others here and on other forums with RH reading the same from top to bottom in their wineador, so I know its possible. I'm trying to replicate those results for myself.

In general I prefer my cigars (non CC) to smoke at the 64-66 range. I'm not a fan of cigars up in the 70 range, they have given me burn issues, bitterness, etc.

Ive wrestled mainly with temp issues in past years with humidors, tupperdores, and my cooler. I purchased the wineador to eliminate my moving storages around the house depending on the season.

I decided on HF beads after reading many folks who have used them with great success, and figured Id give it a try in my wineador.

I was looking to get a solid starting point that I could then leave alone for long periods of time with little upkeep. And with only minor fluctuations. If I start at 65 anything close up or down is good to me. But I have to have a good starting point. Then the fluctuation will be minor. Its well sealed, the cigars inside of it have been there a bit, and there is little air space compared to the size of the unit. So I will not expect much deviation from the cigars point. They take weeks to change RH up or down anyways.

Besides my venting, I was also using this thread like many threads created to learn a bit more. Which has happened.

Even after reading other threads over time, there are things I've read here that I haven't seen posted in others. So its as much about possibly helping the next guy as it is about me learning. So they do not make the errors I did.

I'm not quite sure how "close enough" equates to "old school" but
obviously what works for you, makes you happy and I do not question it. Please extend me the same courtesy.


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## garublador (Jun 5, 2014)

garublador said:


> That shows how to get your media into the EMC range for a specific RH you want, but doesn't say that it's impossible to make a material that has a wide range of EMC for any given value of RH. Look at figure 1. Compare regular density gel to Artsorb. They're way different. At around 28% EMC they're both around 55% RH. However, at 20% EMC the regular density gel is at 30% RH and the Artsorb is around 45% RH. Why can't the beads be created that have a really steep EMC curve at a relatively specific RH? That would mean that in some region, say from 20% EMC to 80% EMC, the RH would only vary from 63 to 67% (numbers totally made up)? So if you get the beads too wet (higher than 80% EMC) the RH would be somewhere above that and if they get too dry (lower than 20% EMC) the RH would be lower than that? Isn't that both the claim that Heartfelt is making and supported by all the anecdotal evidence bead users have had? Why is it impossible to tweak that curve so that steepness in the curve happens at closer to 70% or 60%?


I actually found the Artsorb Technical Brochure (I'm unable to post links, so you'll have to Google it yourself) and I believe this is the media that Heartfelt uses. The beads come in the same RH levels as what Heartfelt uses. If I'm right then this brochure is...well, still kind of inconclusive. They pretty stongly suggest that the beads are manufacturered to work best at a particular RH. Here's a couple quotes from the brochure:

They list a specification for how closely their media fits a certain RH.



> Precise humidity control (± 5%)


That makes it sound like there are different RH targets. Or it could mean that the M value is high enough to prevent more of a fluctuation than that in normal conditions.



> In fact, we carry Art-Sorb in almost all forms from 40%-70% RH (at intervals of 10%), and pre-conditioned so you may choose the perfect level of relative humidity to protect your artwork.


So there are different forms *and* they are pre-conditioned, suggesting that pre-conditioning is in addition to changes in the media. But that could just mean sheet vs cassette vs beads.

Here's a confusing one:



> Art-Sorb comes pre-conditioned to your specifications, between 40%-70% RH (at intervals of 5%), at no charge. Different styles are available in certain regions of this range, please check for availability. This means that every batch of Art-Sorb generated is designed to consistently keep its particular climate at your chosen ideal level.


Again, it's saying they're conditioned but also designed for a specific RH level.

Based on those, I'd say it's inconclusive either way. It could easily be interpreted as they design the media to work at a specific level, or that they're trying to suggest they do that, but really just ship them at a specific EMC.

Ironically, the thing we agreed on, not spraying them with water, is actually suggested in their technical brochure.



> However, the most popular method of reconditioning is a simple process of directly misting the Art-Sorb with water until the appropriate weight is achieved.


It also points out how their media is a much better buffer than other silica products (e.g. kitty litter). At 60% RH it's 12.7 times better as a buffer than regular density silica and over 6 times better than intermediate density silica (don't know what KL is off hand). At 70% it's 13 times better than low density and more than twice as good as intermediate density. Though it doesn't really say if that matters for a humidor. It's nice to quantify the price difference, though.

What I do think is conclusive is that Heartfelt isn't making any claims or suggestions that are out of line with the technical information given for the media he sells.


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## LGHT (Oct 12, 2009)

Trackmyer said:


> No, its not really that they HAVE to be at 65%, but its what I would like to have. *This still doesn't answer the questions of WHY??*
> 
> I've seen others here and on other forums with RH reading the same from top to bottom in their wineador, so I know its possible. I'm trying to replicate those results for myself.
> 
> ...


...............


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## Trackmyer (Jun 6, 2014)

LGHT said:


> ...............


Not to be like others, point was others proven its attainable.

Dude, obviously you have an issue with me, fine. Not here to make you happy.
I tried being civil, you continue to take jabs, if you dont like the thread..Dont read it, pretty simple really.


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## asmartbull (Aug 16, 2009)

Mods....please stop the bleeding


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## JustinThyme (Jun 17, 2013)

Trackmyer said:


> Not to be like others, point was others proven its attainable.
> 
> Dude, obviously you have an issue with me, fine. Not here to make you happy.
> I tried being civil, you continue to take jabs, if you dont like the thread..Dont read it, pretty simple really.


Please dont feed the trolls.... :bitchslap:

Its totally obtainable to keep it within a percentage point from top to bottom. Honestly I wouldnt press it too much until you have your drawers in as that changes the game. You will find yourself farting around with air flow with your fans, air speed, drawer placement etc.

I found the best placement for a 5 drawer and one shelf set up is top to bottom, 2 drawers>shelf>3drawers. My fan set up is a bit different. I have a 120mm fan being fed with a 10VDC power supply so its not at full speed. It runs 24x7 charging the fan box. Youve probably seen it before but here is a pic. I actually started off with a door on the front and holes drilled in the top but it wasnt giving me the desired affect. Taped over the holes and let it just push the air back out the front so it pulls it down from the top then out the front where it gets washed up the glass. Something else once you get your drawers in is placement of how deep they go matters too. I found that having the drawers to where the fronts are flush with the front of the case (not the door) works best for me.

Started with this










And ended up with this....what you see in the drain basin is a stocking full of 70% gel. It absorbs any condensate and releases it back out so there is no water running around on the loose in there. Also FWIW I DID NOT plug the drain hole.


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## Gdaddy (Sep 20, 2012)

garublador said:


> I actually found the Artsorb Technical Brochure (I'm unable to post links, so you'll have to Google it yourself) and I believe this is the media that Heartfelt uses. The beads come in the same RH levels as what Heartfelt uses. If I'm right then this brochure is...well, still kind of inconclusive. They pretty stongly suggest that the beads are manufacturered to work best at a particular RH. Here's a couple quotes from the brochure:
> 
> They list a specification for how closely their media fits a certain RH.
> 
> ...


To review...Here's the claim that Heartfelt is making that is duping people, like you, into thinking each bead is programmed AND that they really aren't silica gel. They're something totally different.

_"Are humidification beads the same as ordinary desiccant silica gel?"
No, the Heartfelt beads are 'programmed' to maintain a specific RH based on the humidity levels you want to keep your humidor at."_

This statement is NOT true and misleading.

From Art-sorb... *"ART SORB is a type of silica gel which is well suited to the task of controlling humidity in display cases. It is a moisture-sensitive silica material"*

Exacty what I said.

*They are NOT programmed in any way to meet 'specific' rh points.There is NO programming of anything. The beads used by Heartfelt are all the same and have been pre-conditioned to meet your needs*

This is according to Art-sorb...

*"Art-Sorb comes pre-conditioned to your specifications, between 40%-70% RH (at intervals of 5%)" Once Art-Sorb has conditioned its surroundings to be at your set point; it is at equilibrium with this climate *

BINGO...This is EXACTLY what I said!


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## LGHT (Oct 12, 2009)

Trackmyer said:


> Not to be like others, point was others proven its attainable.
> 
> Dude, obviously you have an issue with me, fine. Not here to make you happy.
> I tried being civil, you continue to take jabs, if you dont like the thread..Dont read it, pretty simple really.


I don't have a problem with anyone. In fact I find it quit amusing that you fill the need to attain a perfect rh for no apparent reason. I personally enjoy the thread and have learned a lot from Gdaddy and others who know a ton about beads and such.


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## Trackmyer (Jun 6, 2014)

JustinThyme said:


> Its totally obtainable to keep it within a percentage point from top to bottom. Honestly I wouldnt press it too much until you have your drawers in as that changes the game. You will find yourself farting around with air flow with your fans, air speed, drawer placement etc.


Thats a very interesting box design. Thanks for the tips Rob.


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## teedles915 (Jun 18, 2009)

Gentlemen Don has already commented in this thread once about negatively, and rudeness. No more will be tolerated. If you guys can find an way to continue this thread in a sensible, respectful way then have at it. Otherwise take it to PM, or just leave it alone.


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## JustinThyme (Jun 17, 2013)

teedles915 said:


> Gentlemen Don has already commented in this thread once about negatively, and rudeness. No more will be tolerated. If you guys can find an way to continue this thread in a sensible, respectful way then have at it. Otherwise take it to PM, or just leave it alone.


Thanks TW.

IMO maybe the debate of whether or not HF beads are garbage should be taken up in another thread and even then the insults are not in the spirit of the Puff that I came to know and love. Sad part is that those stinking up this thread were already on my blocked list and I'm just catching the rudeness in quotations. There are but 3 people on my blocked list and its all over crap like whats going on here.

Back on point @Trackmyer you are welcome Brother. Knowing that you are OCD like I am there is every indication you will prevail and get it set up in the fashion in which you desire. When I saw you breaking out the Industrial grade controllers I knew we were all in for a ride! LOL

Like I mentioned you would definitely fair better waiting for your drawers before you tweak the set up as it will definitely change. Then once its done and filled up you will have to find something else to occupy the compulsion! LOL Here, Ill add an outlet for you....RC cars are a blast! They have come a long way, Nothing like a 1/8 scale car doing 100mph. Got to dorking off with them one weekend and had a friend drive a car in pursuit of one of my cars out on the highway while I was in the passenger seat with the radio control. It was actually pretty comical, some of the reactions from others watching an RC car pass them while they are doing 70mph! LMAO


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## garublador (Jun 5, 2014)

Gdaddy said:


> To review...Here's the claim that Heartfelt is making that is duping people, like you, into thinking each bead is programmed AND that they really aren't silica gel. They're something totally different.
> 
> _"Are humidification beads the same as ordinary desiccant silica gel?"
> No, the Heartfelt beads are 'programmed' to maintain a specific RH based on the humidity levels you want to keep your humidor at."_
> ...


Acutally, you haven't shown anything about them not being programmed, just that they have been preconditioned.

"Programming" is altering the EMC to RH curve and M value to be optimized in a certain RH range. The paper you liked to shows that the Artsorb product is already "programmed" differently than regular density silica gel. The Artsorb literature shows their sheet type and bead type media being "programmed" differently as well. It's pretty clear that changing that EMC to RH curve is possible. We just don't know how precise they can or do "program" their product.

"Conditioning" is just adding water to get the EMC of the media to match a specific RH. This can be done regardless of whether or not "programming" is possible. Showing that they condition the media is not proof that programming is impossible. It just shows that they do the work of putting enough water in the media to get the EMC to match your desired RH so you can use the media right away.

So the question is whether they actually produce different beads with different EMC to RH curves and condition to the RH you want or if they only condition one type of bead to different RH values. Again, I'm not saying you're wrong, there's a pretty good chance you're right, it's just that the literature is ambiguous enough that it could easily be interpreted either way.

That's also true with Heartfelt's claim. Whether or not the beads are "conditioned" or "programmed" is semantics. His claims are no more or less misleading than what the manufacturer claims.

I'm really trying to get to the bottom of this. Based on what I've read it's very possible that the media is actually different for different RH levels or it's just the same media that's shipped with a different amount of water added. There doesn't seem to be anything conclusive either way.


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## Gdaddy (Sep 20, 2012)

JustinThyme said:


> Thanks TW.
> 
> IMO maybe the debate of whether or not HF beads are garbage should be taken up in another thread and even then the insults are not in the spirit of the Puff that I came to know and love. Sad part is that those stinking up this thread were already on my blocked list and I'm just catching the rudeness in quotations. There are but 3 people on my blocked list and its all over crap like whats going on here.
> 
> ...


No one in this thread said anything negative about Heartfelt beads or that they are "garbage". I clearly stated that they are an excellent product. The way they are being advertised is deceptive.

Oh, I forgot... you're not listening anyway.


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## Gdaddy (Sep 20, 2012)

garublador said:


> Acutally, you haven't shown anything about them not being programmed, just that they have been preconditioned.
> 
> "Programming" is altering the EMC to RH curve and M value to be optimized in a certain RH range. The paper you liked to shows that the Artsorb product is already "programmed" differently than regular density silica gel. The Artsorb literature shows their sheet type and bead type media being "programmed" differently as well. It's pretty clear that changing that EMC to RH curve is possible. We just don't know how precise they can or do "program" their product. Yes we do. It says..They are between 40% to 70% and can be "conditioned" anywhere in that zone in 5 point increments. To hit a specific rh point. All the beads used are the same between 40 and 70%. However, Art-sorb does NOT use the word "program".
> 
> ...


I'll say it again... Heartfelt beads are an excellent product and highly recommended. They are a high quality silica bead. However, ALL the beads are the same beads except for how they have been "conditioned". Kitty litter is a lower quality of silica bead but can also be "conditioned" in the same way.


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## garublador (Jun 5, 2014)

Gdaddy said:


> I'll say it again... Heartfelt beads are an excellent product and highly recommended. They are a high quality silica bead. However, ALL the beads are the same beads except for how they have been "conditioned". Kitty litter is a lower quality of silica bead but can also be "conditioned" in the same way.


But where are you getting that information? Right now it's just your claim against Heartfelt's. The manufacturer is too vague to rely on either way. It sounds to me like you're both getting your information from the same place but interpreting it differently.

It's also very clear that the beads are not regular silica gel. They flat out say that in their literature. Also, look at Figure 1 from the paper you linked to. The EMC to RH curve of Artsorb is totally different from the EMC to RH curve of silica gel. If you add salts to it, it's not the same anymore. It's like saying that steel is the same as iron even though it has carbon in it, too. The addition of the other compound makes it a different material with different properties. As far as I can tell, KL is just silica gel and if that's true it will have a very different EMC to RH curve as Artsorb.



> No where do they suggest each level of bead is formulated or constructed differently in any way.


I already gave three examples that could easily be interpreted as them having different materials for different RH levels. It's just that they can be interpreted as just a difference in conditioning as well.



> Yes we do. It says..They are between 40% to 70% and can be "conditioned" anywhere in that zone in 5 point increments.


Actually it says they come in "almost all forms from 40%-70% RH (at intervals of 10%), and pre-conditioned." Notice the "and." So there are multiple forms between 40% and 70% that are also preconditioned. It's ambiguous because it doesn't say if there are multiple forms of beads or not. "Beads" could be one form or multiple forms.

I'll emphasize that I know you aren't putting the product down. I'm also not saying that what you're saying isn't true. I just don't see anything that proves your claims as definitely as you're stating them. They never state that all the beads are the same and they elude to the different beads being different, but don't definitely say it, either. Calling out Heartfelt for being misleading when there isn't anything definite either way probably isn't the right thing to do. Even changing "conditioning" to "programming" isn't really misleading because it's semantics that aren't well defined and the end user will see the same result either way.

It's also probably splitting hairs on whether or not they are actually different. With the specs given they should be very stable at any EMC that gives an RH between 60% and 70% if put in an appropriately sized system with minimal air exchange. It probably doesn't even affect how the beads will be used. If the EMC of the beads gets far enough away from the RH you want, you have to either add or remove moisture from them whether they're "programmed" or not.


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## asmartbull (Aug 16, 2009)

Much of this is a 
Distinction without a difference. 
The short version for noobs.
When in the possession of the customer...
HCM beads can be altered , changed, or modified, to raise or lower rh in a hummie view passive absorption or allowing them to dry in the frig.
HF beads comes to us at a desired rh level the they strive to maintain.
KL...for the most part naturally will maintain 60 to 65 rh.

Apologies to the OP for having to witness an adult passing contest......for all this, everyone is just wet.....


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## ShaneG (Apr 9, 2014)

@Trackmyer thanks for asking- I didn't know a lot about he beads and now I know more than I did when I started reading. Sort you got bludgeoned for having the audacity for asking, but I'm glad you did. It won't let me RG you but I would love to again for helping get the record straight, and thanks for helping keep puff an informative place


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## Trackmyer (Jun 6, 2014)

asmartbull said:


> HF beads comes to us at a desired rh level the they strive to maintain.
> KL...for the most part naturally will maintain 60 to 65 rh.
> 
> Apologies to the OP


Indeed, this was my misunderstanding of the product. Which since has been explained.

I went into it thinking I had an idea of how they worked, but was wrong. Now I understand it better and appreciate the helpful information by all involved.

No worries, its all good.

And Thanks brother Shane


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## garublador (Jun 5, 2014)

Trackmyer said:


> I went into it thinking I had an idea of how they worked, but was wrong. Now I understand it better and appreciate the helpful information by all involved.


I'm glad someone else got something out of it. 

Pardon the novel, but I thought I'd "summarize" what I've learned about how the beads work.

What's happening is that at any given RH, given enough time for everything to reach an equilibrium, a hygroscopic material (a material that holds water like the beads, KL, wood or cigars) will have some amount of water in it. Some materials have very similar amounts of water in them at different RH's. Some, like the beads, will have very different amounts of water in them for small changes in RH. The beads also are able to quickly absorb or give off water and can hold a pretty large amount of water for their size. These are all desirable traits when looking for something to buffer the RH in your humidor.

So if you have beads that are conditioned to exactly 65% and put them in a humidor that's at 70% RH, the beads will absorb water and the air will lose water until they reach equilibrium again. Because the beads need a lot of moisture to get to a moisture content that will give a different RH, the equilibrium point will be very close to 65%, but actually slightly higher. They'll be "conditioned" to a slightly different RH. So they aren't actively trying to maintain a certain RH, it just takes a lot of added or removed water to get them to a moisture content that's at equilibrium with a significantly different RH. Or put another way, it takes a lot of adding or removing water to condition them to a significantly different level in the RH range we keep our humidors.

The thing is that the beads don't work equally as well at all moisture contents. Once you get outside of the "sweet spot" (the argument is whether the sweet spot is the same for all beads or if it can be tuned by altering the material to something more specific, like 63%-67%) the beads lose some of those desirable qualities. So they probably won't work nearly as well if you condition them to 40% or 80% RH. They won't do as good of a job (i.e. you'll need a lot more of them) if you want to hold the RH at either of those levels as you would if you wanted to hold 60%. It's worth noting that even outside the "sweet spot" the beads are still a good buffer.

What this all means is to not fiddle with the beads very much. If you don't give the system proper time to reach equilibrium and then rapidly add or remove moisture from the beads, no matter what the sweet spot is, the water content in them might not match the RH you want. If it's in a range that the material is bad at buffering at it will be easy to get it to the edge of the sweet spot and then difficult to get to the middle of the sweet spot. That's good news because it means they're pretty forgiving when it comes to how much water to add or remove. It sounds like this is what happened in the OP. Water was added to inadvertently recondition the beads to a higher RH (closer to 70%, which may still be in their sweet spot) and then it was difficult to get them to recondition back in a system that may have already been leaking moisture in.

This also means that if you have a relatively large volume to buffer with a RH that's way off from where you want, there's the possibility that the system won't reach an equilibrium that's the same as what the beads were conditioned to. In other words, the beads won't be conditioned to the same RH anymore. This is especially true if your beads are conditioned near either end of the sweet spot and/or you don't have an adequate number of beads.

It sounds like some prefer kitty litter because it's very easy to condition. Little changes in moisture content will give larger changes in RH. If they get off then it's easy to get them back to where you want. If beads get off it can take a lot more to get them back to where you want. If you have a system that's already fairly stable and have room for more media than the plusses might outweigh the minuses. If you're in a location where the ambient RH is always either higher or lower than what you want your humidor at, the beads will slowly creep up or down and take a relatively large amount of wetting or drying to recondition back to where you want. It probably takes some experimentation to get that right. It's easy to get into a "one step forward, two steps back" type situation. With KL you can snap them back to the moisture that gives the RH you want fairly easily. You can learn pretty quickly what it takes to recondition them to the RH you want.

The more I read and think about it the more I agree that Gdaddy is interpreting the literature correctly. However, it's not enough to convince me to make the claim that Heartfelt is being misleading. If he is, it's only because he misinterpreted already confusing literature from his supplier.


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## Gdaddy (Sep 20, 2012)

I think we're making some progress.

Back to my original point in the beginning of all this...Heartfelt should not suggest (nor should Art-sorb) that you apply water directly to the beads. They are in fact silica gel and it's a fact that silica gel doesn't like direct water. It causes them to crack* which, by the way, is acknowledged by both companies.* If you wanted to design a planned destruction of the product then have customers spray water on them. It washes the salts as well and they slowly become less efficient. They also don't need to be 'energized' in some magical way by spraying water on them and is BAD advice for such a good product.

Damp sponge only if you need to increase the RH.


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## profanitypete (Jul 18, 2014)

This is a greatly informative thread, and I apologize for bringing it back being a month old, but I do think that if we take some of the key points from this and either create a new thread or edit the first post with a FAQ or synopsis, this would be a great sticky (adult pissing match aside).


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## Gdaddy (Sep 20, 2012)

profanitypete said:


> This is a greatly informative thread, and I apologize for bringing it back being a month old, but I do think that if we take some of the key points from this and either create a new thread or edit the first post with a FAQ or synopsis, this would be a great sticky (adult pissing match aside).


Having seen so many people struggle with RH and 'beads' I think it would be beneficial for many people to better understand and simplify the process. Most of the time over humidification is the culprit. However, people do cling to their beliefs and are sometimes reluctant to change.


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## Trackmyer (Jun 6, 2014)

profanitypete said:


> This is a greatly informative thread, and I apologize for bringing it back being a month old, but I do think that if we take some of the key points from this and either create a new thread or edit the first post with a FAQ or synopsis, this would be a great sticky (adult pissing match aside).


Howdy, fellow NY'er, and no worries about digging up thread. If someone wanted to create a new thread as a true informative thread like a "Beads for Dummies" manual, that would be great. This dog dont hunt though, too much tit for tat with good info sprinkled in.



Gdaddy said:


> Having seen so many people struggle with RH and 'beads' I think it would be beneficial for many people to better understand and simplify the process. Most of the time over humidification is the culprit. However, people do cling to their beliefs and are sometimes reluctant to change.


Indeed. The so called "Instructions" on use of beads is a bit misleading for sure.


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## profanitypete (Jul 18, 2014)

Trackmyer said:


> Howdy, fellow NY'er, and no worries about digging up thread. If someone wanted to create a new thread as a true informative thread like a "Beads for Dummies" manual, that would be great. This dog dont hunt though, too much tit for tat with good info sprinkled in.


I would totally do this, but I have a feeling it wouldn't be well received. Maybe someone with a few more posts & a bit more clout should.


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## sipnjd (Mar 28, 2015)

I purchased 1lb. of the Heartfelt 70% beads for my wineadoir. I think that I made a mistake and should have purchased the 65% beads. Is there a way to get my beads down from 70% to 65%?


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## WV_cigar_guy (Feb 19, 2012)

sipnjd said:


> I purchased 1lb. of the Heartfelt 70% beads for my wineadoir. I think that I made a mistake and should have purchased the 65% beads. Is there a way to get my beads down from 70% to 65%?


Shouldnt be too much of a problem there. Just let your sticks sit out and hour or two (out of cello) before lighting.


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## Gdaddy (Sep 20, 2012)

You can bake them in the oven at a low temp to evaporate off moisture. You can easily re-acclimate the beads to the range you're looking for.

Spread the beads out as much as possible like on a cookie sheet.


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## TomF (Apr 14, 2015)

Boy, am I glad that this thread was resurrected. I've just read through the entire thing and it was very informative. I've learned a lot more about beads than I ever knew, but now I have a couple of questions. I thought about starting a new thread because this is a zombie and stirred up some controversy along the way, but then I thought the context was important, so here we go...

First let me start by saying that I am new to this forum, in fact I this is only my second post. I began smoking cigars in the mid '90's during the cigar boom and smoked for a few years before giving it up. I have recently taken up smoking again but although I was pretty deep into it 20 years ago, I've forgotten most of what i knew and at this point I consider myself a noob. l purchased couple of adjustable hygrometers and made sure that they were properly calibrated. I have cleaned out and re-seasoned my old 75ct handmade wooden humidor. When I began with cigars in the 90's no one that I knew of was using beads. Florist foam and DW/PG mix was what everyone I knew was using. I was still in the process of re-seasoning my wood humidor but had bought some smokes which I put into a Lucite humidor that I had kept. When I bought the smokes I also got a Xikar jar of gel because it seemed like the closest thing to what I remembered using, the DW/PG mix. But I was fascinated by this new humidification bead technology that I was reading about. Nothing like this existed back in the '90's. So I ordered a large puck, and a 1 pound bag of 65% Heartfelt beads. I intended to try out the puck in the Lucite humidor while the dried out wooden one re-seasoned. The beads quickly arrived and I began by following the instructions which seemed to say that I should begin by moistening most of the beads in the puck. So I squirted some DW on the beads with the little syringe they included in the package. I only intended to moisten some of the beads, but of course I used too much water and it migrated throughout the puck. All the beads turned clear and there was excess water dripping from the puck if I shook it. I dried it off well, got all of the excess water out of it and put it in the Lucite humidor with my smokes. The Xikar jar had gotten the humidor to 70% with the cigars in it when I replaced it with the puck, and of course when I checked it the next morning it had spiked well above 70%. For the next few days I played this game of taking out the puck until the humidity dropped below 65% and then putting it back in to bring it back up. It swung like that for several days until the puck dried out enough and it's now finally stabilized at 66%.

So now my wood humidor is properly seasoned but it's wet at about 75% empty, and slowly dropping. I have boxes of cigars in a 69% Boveda bag that I want to put into the wood humidor. I have dry beads from the factory. And my questions are these:

If I put the beads right out of the bag with no DW added into the wooden humidor sitting now at 75% as the lining gives off moisture from the re-seasoning, will the beads draw the humility inside the humidor down to 65% and then stop? 

Or will the whole thing just continue to drop lower than 65%? 

And if so, how is one supposed to bring it back up without misting the beads? By adding DW to the Xikar jar and putting it back in along with the beads?

As someone attempting to use beads for the first time I'd really like to understand how this all works, and even after reading through the whole thread these questions still seem unanswered.


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## SeanTheEvans (Dec 13, 2013)

If your humi is at 75% and has stayed there for a day without the sponge inside, it is done seasoning, and you can add your dry beads - yes they should bring it back down to 65% and hold it there.

I use a lb of heartfelt beads between 3 coolers and 2 humis, and they work like magic :tu Let me know if you have any other questions!



TomF said:


> Boy, am I glad that this thread was resurrected. I've just read through the entire thing and it was very informative. I've learned a lot more about beads than I ever knew, but now I have a couple of questions. I thought about starting a new thread because this is a zombie and stirred up some controversy along the way, but then I thought the context was important, so here we go...
> 
> First let me start by saying that I am new to this forum, in fact I this is only my second post. I began smoking cigars in the mid '90's during the cigar boom and smoked for a few years before giving it up. I have recently taken up smoking again but although I was pretty deep into it 20 years ago, I've forgotten most of what i knew and at this point I consider myself a noob. l purchased couple of adjustable hygrometers and made sure that they were properly calibrated. I have cleaned out and re-seasoned my old 75ct handmade wooden humidor. When I began with cigars in the 90's no one that I knew of was using beads. Florist foam and DW/PG mix was what everyone I knew was using. I was still in the process of re-seasoning my wood humidor but had bought some smokes which I put into a Lucite humidor that I had kept. When I bought the smokes I also got a Xikar jar of gel because it seemed like the closest thing to what I remembered using, the DW/PG mix. But I was fascinated by this new humidification bead technology that I was reading about. Nothing like this existed back in the '90's. So I ordered a large puck, and a 1 pound bag of 65% Heartfelt beads. I intended to try out the puck in the Lucite humidor while the dried out wooden one re-seasoned. The beads quickly arrived and I began by following the instructions which seemed to say that I should begin by moistening most of the beads in the puck. So I squirted some DW on the beads with the little syringe they included in the package. I only intended to moisten some of the beads, but of course I used too much water and it migrated throughout the puck. All the beads turned clear and there was excess water dripping from the puck if I shook it. I dried it off well, got all of the excess water out of it and put it in the Lucite humidor with my smokes. The Xikar jar had gotten the humidor to 70% with the cigars in it when I replaced it with the puck, and of course when I checked it the next morning it had spiked well above 70%. For the next few days I played this game of taking out the puck until the humidity dropped below 65% and then putting it back in to bring it back up. It swung like that for several days until the puck dried out enough and it's now finally stabilized at 66%.
> 
> ...


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## ChokeOnSmoke (Oct 30, 2007)

Here's some information some might find interesting. I purchased a 1/2 pound of Heartfelt Beads for my 120 qt coolidor on 01-09-2008. And after more than 7 years of spraying them with a squirt bottle, I'm happy to say my beads still working fine. i never had the patience to recharge them the "correct way" and luckily spraying them didn't stop their effectiveness. Did some crack and break, yup, but as a group they still do what they're suppose to do.


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## jimsta10 (Apr 29, 2015)

gents, sorry to intrude. 

if i may as a few questions RE. HF beads in my compressor cooled wineador and cat liter. 

before anyone snaps at me :shocked: here is the background.

i have a 2ft x 2ft x 6ft wine cooler going to be converted into a wineador. this unit has ability to control humidity, however....there is currently a huge RH difference from top to bottom (top is around 60% bottom is around 85%) to counter this issue i have place a fan at the bottom to circulate the air (small but powerful). fan will be left on 24/7. this has help with the consistency of RH and temp (a lot).

because of the compressed cooling, condensation is occurs...can i simply place 2lbs of beads at the bottom to absorb some of the moisture? is it just a waste of money? should i use use cat liter instead?


thank you in advance...

Jim


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## SeanTheEvans (Dec 13, 2013)

jimsta10 said:


> gents, sorry to intrude.
> 
> if i may as a few questions RE. HF beads in my compressor cooled wineador and cat liter.
> 
> ...


You're going to be fighting an extremely uphill battle with using a compressor. It's going to take an army to keep your RH stable in that thing (because of the condensation that occurs). I'd suggest you rethink the whole scenario and go thermoelectric my brother :yo:


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## elco69 (May 1, 2013)

SeanTheEvans said:


> You're going to be fighting an extremely uphill battle with using a compressor. It's going to take an army to keep your RH stable in that thing (because of the condensation that occurs). I'd suggest you rethink the whole scenario and go thermoelectric my brother :yo:


Agreed! With compressor cooling, it is going to cause your RH to jump around and your beads won't be able to absorb fast enough to counteract. If you keep your wineador in a 24/7 temp controlled room, I say don't even plug it in, treat it like a giant coolidor just much nicer to look at.


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## jimsta10 (Apr 29, 2015)

Thanks guys. Here's some stats that I have collected this morning after running it for another 8 hours. Highest 75% lowest 55% currently at 68%. Temp currently 16.5-17'C. The variation is quiet high from highest to lowest, however I can't tell if it was a quick drop or steady drop as I was sleeping at the time.


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## Bizumpy (Nov 14, 2014)

Does it matter? I'd avoid a 20% swing of any duration.


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## jimsta10 (Apr 29, 2015)

Bizumpy said:


> Does it matter? I'd avoid a 20% swing of any duration.


Yes to me...as i dont really want to buy a thermoelectric cooler. i really want to conquer this one 

*WILLHI 220V Digital Air Humidity Controller WH8040 1%~99% RH HM-40 Sensor

*Im now contemplating of buying one of these device to switch the cooler off when it reaches say 62%...and turn it on when it reaches say 72%. food for thought i guess.


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## TomF (Apr 14, 2015)

The only thing you're going to conquer are your cigars.


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## jimsta10 (Apr 29, 2015)

Just as long as I do them justice Tom...


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## SeanTheEvans (Dec 13, 2013)

jimsta10 said:


> Just as long as I do them justice Tom...


I think you are misunderstanding what he is saying.

But if you INSIST: With enough HF beads, you could technically "conquer" anything. You could store your cigars in a meat locker if you kept pounds and pounds of beads in there to maintain a stable RH. Key word: STABLE. You don't want fluctuation, so even if you add a controller to stop the cooling when you see a drop and then it turns right back on when it gets high enough, etc- a 10% swing in RH every couple hours (possibly?) is still savage to your cigars.

If you're going to go all-out and store them in a temperature/RH controlled environment (wineador), you might as well do it right. If you want to subject your cigars to all sorts of turmoil, don't bother wasting your time storing them anywhere specific at all, much less setting up an overly complicated system to get around a fundamental problem with the setup.

Just my two pennies, best of luck in whatever you choose


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## jimsta10 (Apr 29, 2015)

SeanTheEvans said:


> I think you are misunderstanding what he is saying.
> 
> But if you INSIST: With enough HF beads, you could technically "conquer" anything. You could store your cigars in a meat locker if you kept pounds and pounds of beads in there to maintain a stable RH. Key word: STABLE. You don't want fluctuation, so even if you add a controller to stop the cooling when you see a drop and then it turns right back on when it gets high enough, etc- a 10% swing in RH every couple hours (possibly?) is still savage to your cigars.
> 
> ...


Thanks Tom, appreciate the your extremely valuable 2 pennies. i am somewhat slowly seeing the "pushing **** uphill scenario. fight with compressed air (compressor) for these types of products isnt easy.....

just out of curiosity, what is the a "stable" RH swing change that can be "acceptable" in your opinion? from what you're saying +-10% is too much of a swing change. do you think +-5% is reasonable at say 17-18'C (62.5F-64.5F?

Cheers


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## TomF (Apr 14, 2015)

The only kind of "swing" that I would find acceptable is the one that happens when I open the humidor to take a cigar out or to put cigars in. Otherwise I don't want to see it swinging at all. Stable temperature and humidity is key. Why try to fight a compressor when there are numerous other options which work and won't ruin your cigars. They'd be better off in a Boveda bag on the shelf in your closet than in a compressor driven refrigerator.


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## jimsta10 (Apr 29, 2015)

TomF said:


> The only kind of "swing" that I would find acceptable is the one that happens when I open the humidor to take a cigar out or to put cigars in. Otherwise I don't want to see it swinging at all. Stable temperature and humidity is key. Why try to fight a compressor when there are numerous other options which work and won't ruin your cigars. They'd be better off in a Boveda bag on the shelf in your closet than in a compressor driven refrigerator.


True...

There are a few second hand 24 bottle wine coolers on the market here in Melbourne and not expensive either ($100aud)...i might have to give it a shot..

cheers again Tom.


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## Bizumpy (Nov 14, 2014)

This is what I would do: stick everything in plastic zip-lok bags before putting them in this type of fridge. Use Bovedas in the bags rather than beads in the humi (or both, perhaps).

The plastic, while permeable, will buffer any swings.


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## elco69 (May 1, 2013)

Jimsta...... the room that, the fridge will be going into, is it temp controlled year round? My friend got a huge 150ct wine fridge for free from his neighbor, but it is compressor cooled like yours. However his house is temp controlled and he decided not to even plug it in, just use it like an upright coolidor and nice display case. No swings in RH, except when he opens the door, has about 3lbs of HF 65% beads spread throughout and thing holds rock solid at 64/65%


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## jimsta10 (Apr 29, 2015)

elco69 said:


> Jimsta...... the room that, the fridge will be going into, is it temp controlled year round? My friend got a huge 150ct wine fridge for free from his neighbor, but it is compressor cooled like yours. However his house is temp controlled and he decided not to even plug it in, just use it like an upright coolidor and nice display case. No swings in RH, except when he opens the door, has about 3lbs of HF 65% beads spread throughout and thing holds rock solid at 64/65%


Hey mate, we just have ducted heating for the winter months (now)...i currently have some of my finer wine bottles in there which cannot be removed..thats my issue. house temp is average around 21'C or 70'F which is ok. im investigating into a wineador...saw some cheap secondhand ones online. i think this will be my next move..

Cheers

Jimmy


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## elco69 (May 1, 2013)

If your house doesn't go above 75F or below 60F, you could just use it without the compressor, just leave it unplugged.


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