# CAO cubist ashtray is awesome BUT...



## Footbag (May 14, 2008)

I know many of you have seen the CAO Cubist ashtray.









Yes, it's awesome and I want one, but I don't smoke many CAO's. So rather then posing or buying a bunch of CAO's to justify the ashtray, I'm considering having a similar one made. 
I love the shape, but I think it would be cooler if it was CNC'd out of a solid aluminum block. Kind of like this one done by a custom metalworker.








So what do you think. Anyone ever do anything like this? I'm not quite sure if it will be cost effective, but I do need a nice ashtray, and I'll have it forever. Has the slope got me?


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## GrtndpwrflOZ (May 17, 2007)

In my opinion it would DEFINATELY NOT be cost effective.


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## GrtndpwrflOZ (May 17, 2007)

Get the CAO ashtray and remove the CAO with solvant.


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## Footbag (May 14, 2008)

GrtndpwrflOZ said:


> Get the CAO ashtray and remove the CAO with solvant.


Isn't it recessed?


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## GrtndpwrflOZ (May 17, 2007)

Footbag said:


> Isn't it recessed?


OH
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/CooktBrain/BUCKY/rr.jpg

NEVERMIND


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## elderboy02 (Jun 24, 2008)

Aluminum is extremely expensive right now. I just use a $4 one I got at Walgreens.


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## benjamin (Jun 29, 2008)

two words- thrift store

i guarantee you will be able to find an awesome vintage ashtray for a fraction of what you would pay for the cubist


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## Footbag (May 14, 2008)

I know it's going to be expensive, but I'll most likely never have to replace it. I may have a way of getting it into CAD without the setup fees. 

Maybe I'll smoke a CAO and weigh my options.:ss


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## GrtndpwrflOZ (May 17, 2007)

Bro, I can design an ashtray for ya. ACAD, INVENTOR.DXF, IGES....I would just need details.



Footbag said:


> I know it's going to be expensive, but I'll most likely never have to replace it. I may have a way of getting it into CAD without the setup fees.
> 
> Maybe I'll smoke a CAO and weigh my options.:ss












It took me longer to figure out how to post it then make it.
It's 12" x 12" x 4" high, with a 3" hollow in the center
This is a solid model donw in INVENTOR. Can be sent to most CNC's


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## Tripp (Nov 27, 2006)

Oh man that would be sweet! I'd be interested in getting a quote on one of those


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## -MG- (Apr 22, 2008)

I'm willing to help if I can.. I've got a small-scale CNC machine and made this one as well as another that I can't show until Saturday (it was made as a gift, and I'm not sure if the recipient is a memeber of the board).



I can do aluminum as well...


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## Freight (Sep 28, 2007)

-MG- said:


> I'm willing to help if I can.. I've got a small-scale CNC machine and made this one as well as another that I can't show until Saturday (it was made as a gift, and I'm not sure if the recipient is a memeber of the board).
> 
> I can do aluminum as well...


Nice ashtray! :tu

Do you make them as a hobby or sell them?


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## Tripp (Nov 27, 2006)

-MG- said:


> I'm willing to help if I can.. I've got a small-scale CNC machine and made this one as well as another that I can't show until Saturday (it was made as a gift, and I'm not sure if the recipient is a memeber of the board).
> 
> I can do aluminum as well...


Oh man! One of those Cubist's in wood would be sweet and cost effective!


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## Footbag (May 14, 2008)

GrtndpwrflOZ said:


> Bro, I can design an ashtray for ya. ACAD, INVENTOR.DXF, IGES....I would just need details.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Whoa, that's pretty much exactly what I'm looking for. If I go through with it you will be rewarded for your work.

Now I just have to find a machinist with a CNC machine.



> I'm willing to help if I can.. I've got a small-scale CNC machine and made this one as well as another that I can't show until Saturday (it was made as a gift, and I'm not sure if the recipient is a memeber of the board).


Whoa, a machinist. What size aluminum block can your machine take?

Thanks again GrtndpwrflOZ & -MG-!


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## CaddoMoney (Oct 10, 2007)

-MG- said:


> I'm willing to help if I can.. I've got a small-scale CNC machine and made this one as well as another that I can't show until Saturday (it was made as a gift, and I'm not sure if the recipient is a memeber of the board).
> 
> I can do aluminum as well...


Most impressive, which CNC do you use? I've been thinking about getting one for my shop down the road, would appreciate a point in the right direction.


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## Ironfreak (Apr 28, 2006)

Did I hear *GROUP BUY*??


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## elderboy02 (Jun 24, 2008)

I think I heard group buy somewhere.


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## Vorb (Dec 10, 2007)

Ironfreak said:


> Did I hear *GROUP BUY*??


Yes. Yes you did.

:ss


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## Footbag (May 14, 2008)

OK, I'm online right now trying to get a rough estimate. It may take a bit as I'm learning a lesson on how to use this sites specific software. emachineshop is the site. It'll give me an online quote if I can plug the dimensions into their software. 

Does anyone have the exact height of the ashtray. I know it's 9" square. 

Also, I'm thinking a brushed aluminum would be the best finish.


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## pro2625 (Jun 25, 2008)

Oh man! That club Stogie ashtray is awesome! I want in


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## benjamin (Jun 29, 2008)

Ironfreak said:


> Did I hear *GROUP BUY*??


i was just about to say that...i sense it upon the horizon as well...


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## GrtndpwrflOZ (May 17, 2007)

I don't know the exact dimensions for the CAO ashtray. I can dimension the one I did after I make it 9 x 9 as opposed to the 12 x 12 one I did.



Footbag said:


> OK, I'm online right now trying to get a rough estimate. It may take a bit as I'm learning a lesson on how to use this sites specific software. emachineshop is the site. It'll give me an online quote if I can plug the dimensions into their software.
> 
> Does anyone have the exact height of the ashtray. I know it's 9" square.
> 
> Also, I'm thinking a brushed aluminum would be the best finish.


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## ActionAndy (Jul 9, 2008)

This is an awesome idea.


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## mugen910 (May 14, 2008)

Ironfreak said:


> Did I hear *GROUP BUY*??


**Screams** GROUP BUY!!! **takes a deep breath** GROUP BUUUUUUY!


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## Ironfreak (Apr 28, 2006)

Footbag said:


> Does anyone have the exact height of the ashtray. I know it's 9" square.
> 
> Also, I'm thinking a brushed aluminum would be the best finish.


Actual dimensions- 9" x 9" x 2.75"

I agree, brushed aluminum would be awesome!


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## Ironfreak (Apr 28, 2006)

mugen910 said:


> *Screams* GROUP BUY!!! *takes a deep breath* GROUP BUUUUUUY!


At least I am not crazy.. 

You can bill Bao for mine, he owes it to me for all the 'cute' references through CS over the last week.. :r


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## mugen910 (May 14, 2008)

Ironfreak said:


> Actual dimensions- 9" x 9" x 2.75"
> 
> I agree, brushed aluminum would be awesome!


yeah that'd be CUTE! hahahah Kris!


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## GrtndpwrflOZ (May 17, 2007)

That's art 2.5" tall


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## -MG- (Apr 22, 2008)

Freight said:


> Nice ashtray! :tu
> 
> Do you make them as a hobby or sell them?


Somewhere between the two... The idea was to sell them, but I haven't had much time lately, and if I factor in my labor I don't really make anything on them.



Footbag said:


> What size aluminum block can your machine take?


The machine can do aluminum, but I don't have much experiance with it (in my machine). The ashtrays I've been doing are 6"x6"x2", and I have to re-mount the block in order to pull it off.... I *may* be able to do 9x9x?, but I'd have to remount at least once, if its possible. It seems like every time I think a project is too big I manage to find a different way to mount it and pull it off.

I'm sure I can do a 6x6x2 cubist in wood, and in fact I would do just that before trying in aluminum due to the cost difference.



CaddoMoney said:


> Most impressive, which CNC do you use? I've been thinking about getting one for my shop down the road, would appreciate a point in the right direction.


I use a Sherline 2000, I'll PM you in a bit to keep this thread clean :tu



Footbag said:


> ...emachineshop is the site...


Fun site to play with! My past experiance with them is it wasn't ever cost effective unless I was willing to get 100+ units, but I'd love it if this works out!


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## Footbag (May 14, 2008)

GrtndpwrflOZ said:


> That's art 2.5" tall


Very nice! The ash catching area may need another .5" but besides that, it is perfect. I may have to ask you to remove the Footbag, unless all of you want to start smoking Footbag cigars, I'm sure it will confuse whoever I find to do it. Plus then you'll have my CAO problem. Club Stogie is fine, but I'll get prices before I get you guys too excited.

Wow, I thought you would all think I was crazy for this.:ss


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## GrtndpwrflOZ (May 17, 2007)

Actually the text may be expensive to have milled into the tray. 
If anything it could be an option (that adds costto product)

I can do it you just have to let me know. 
Then we can work on what dimensions you want.

B
feelinglikeIamconttributing


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## Footbag (May 14, 2008)

-MG- said:


> Somewhere between the two... The idea was to sell them, but I haven't had much time lately, and if I factor in my labor I don't really make anything on them.
> 
> The machine can do aluminum, but I don't have much experiance with it (in my machine). The ashtrays I've been doing are 6"x6"x2", and I have to re-mount the block in order to pull it off.... I *may* be able to do 9x9x?, but I'd have to remount at least once, if its possible. It seems like every time I think a project is too big I manage to find a different way to mount it and pull it off.
> 
> Fun site to play with! My past experiance with them is it wasn't ever cost effective unless I was willing to get 100+ units, but I'd love it if this works out!


Hmmm, don't think there are a hundred people here who will want to pay for it, but I'm still trying. How to I get the slant of the rim? Z-axis or try to cut it out from the front view?

They don't accept any submissions in any form but their own program. Just trying to get an estimate. GrtndpwrflOZ thanks for the designs, depending on how this works out, I may try to submit them to a local shop to see what kind of options I have.


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## GrtndpwrflOZ (May 17, 2007)

If you're trying to get these done in Aluminum...I don't think so. It would be WAY expensive.
As for the angled cuts. You remount the piece to go in from the front view, half was thru. then remount for each side and repeat.

That is alot of changing of the piece, and it will need a nice SOLID chunk of aluminum which all equals $$$$ in my opinion.

Good Luck and count my broke a$$ in. I want one. HELL I'll take a CAO Cubist if it's cheaper



Footbag said:


> Hmmm, don't think there are a hundred people here who will want to pay for it, but I'm still trying. How to I get the slant of the rim? Z-axis or try to cut it out from the front view?
> 
> They don't accept any submissions in any form but their own program. Just trying to get an estimate. GrtndpwrflOZ thanks for the designs, depending on how this works out, I may try to submit them to a local shop to see what kind of options I have.


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## taltos (Feb 28, 2006)

Just a friendly reminder to watch patent laws and be very careful of involving this club in any exposure to potential violations.


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## Footbag (May 14, 2008)

GrtndpwrflOZ said:


> If you're trying to get these done in Aluminum...I don't think so. It would be WAY expensive.
> As for the angled cuts. You remount the piece to go in from the front view, half was thru. then remount for each side and repeat.
> 
> That is alot of changing of the piece, and it will need a nice SOLID chunk of aluminum which all equals $$$$ in my opinion.
> ...


It looks like 12" aluminum is about $180 for the aluminum alone not including the machining time. 8" aluminum would be about $100 for the aluminum only.

I have no idea how much it would cost for the machining time, but may not get the one on emachine shop priced out. Will see. The wife wants me to make pickles, so I may need to think about it. Will probably try to bring GrtndpwrflOZ design to a local shop.


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## Footbag (May 14, 2008)

taltos said:


> Just a friendly reminder to watch patent laws and be very careful of involving this club in any exposure to potential violations.


I'm going to have to think about that. Obviously, I wouldn't want to get CS in trouble and I'm not looking for any money. My original intent was for one ashtray. As well, I don't want anyone to not buy the CAO because this similar one hypothetically exists.

I'm also not sure how patents on "art" work. First, is the design patented? Would using an alternate medium and dimensions be a way around the patent. 
If not, maybe I'll just try to come up with a "cooler" design. We'll see.


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## ResIpsa (Mar 8, 2006)

Footbag said:


> I'm going to have to think about that. Obviously, I wouldn't want to get CS in trouble and I'm not looking for any money. My original intent was for one ashtray. As well, I don't want anyone to not buy the CAO because this similar one hypothetically exists.
> 
> I'm also not sure how patents on "art" work. *First, is the design patented*? Would using an alternate medium and dimensions be a way around the patent.
> If not, maybe I'll just try to come up with a "cooler" design. We'll see.


 Short answer, you're talking about copyrights not patents which deal with inventions 

In copyright IP law for something to be protected it needs to be "published" . The word published is not used in it's dictionary sense, it means to fix it in a tangible medium. When a singer sings asong on television, that performance has been "published". When an artist sets a design to paper it's published......when a cigar company creates an ashtray it is "published'......published works are protected by IP law.:tu


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## -MG- (Apr 22, 2008)

ResIpsa said:


> Short answer, you're talking about copyrights not patents which deal with inventions
> 
> In copyright IP law for something to be protected it needs to be "published" . The word published is not used in it's dictionary sense, it means to fix it in a tangible medium. When a singer sings asong on television, that performance has been "published". When an artist sets a design to paper it's published......when a cigar company creates an ashtray it is "published'......published works are protected by IP law.:tu


How much would the design have to be changed in order to be considered a different product? 15% is bouncing around in my head, but I may be making it up...


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## sonick (Jan 30, 2007)

Aesthetics are going to be a lot more difficult to infringe upon than function. 

"ash bearing receptacle" is all you're making.

I don't think CAO could say boo as long as you don't print "CAO" on it, even if the geometry were identical. Not being ubiquitous like a round ashtray doesn't make it more enforcable. I doubt CAO has registered that shape as a trade mark or logo.

The price of the billets sounds really high too ?? Surely a billet that size could be had for $50 or less.....


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## ResIpsa (Mar 8, 2006)

sonick said:


> Aesthetics are going to be a lot more difficult to infringe upon than function.
> 
> "ash bearing receptacle" is all you're making.
> 
> ...


While it's easy to disagree about IP law , the issue is not trademarks, rather whether or not that particular design is protected under copyright, a distinct area of IP law. Copyrights do not need to be registered to be protected, although it IS a good idea to do so.

An item can have both form and function, be protected as to one and not the other under existing copyright law.

An ashtray referred to as "cubist" is being referred to as a particular art form,by the maker, art is certainly protected under copyright law, and I'll just say that IMHO that design is protected under copyright law, and we can agree to disagree.:tu


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## Footbag (May 14, 2008)

Got my first quote...








Had to change the design a bit just due to the change in materials. The design would be $505 for the first one. This is just my first quote of many. I think that it is important that I get a nice finish on it. It's not going inside of an engine, its going on my coffee table.

FYI If I buy 25 the price is about $275 ea. I'm trying to figure out the best type of aluminum. I am not sure if it will need some sort of finishing. It most likely will.

Edit adding...

Oops my bad. Those prices are without the brushed finishing. Since it is too large for most brushing machines, It may need to be hand grinded. That costs almost $100 per with very little price break for qty. Not sure I trust hand grinding either.

I'm curious to see what may happen with a raw finish. You may see some cut marks, but that may be cool. Not quite sure.

And I'm sure it will need big rubber bumper feet so it doesn't scratch the surface.


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## gvarsity (Dec 12, 2006)

Pretty sweet idea. It's cool that there is so much expertise that people could make this happen pretty fast barring cost.

To change it a little and avoid copyright issues. You could always add a side and make it the Club Stogie "pentist" ashtray. Makes it more herf friendly anyway. :ss

Could you use a different metal that costs less like tin? I know it wouldn't be as cool but if it gets them made. 

You could also always do it the way CAO did and create ceramic ones by making a mold. Then slip cast them glaze to taste and fire away.

I'll be following this thread and see what comes of it for sure.


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## troutbreath (May 22, 2008)

That's pretty cool, but I would be curious about propert infringement.

the tray made by -MG- out of wood was sweet, too. Very talented.


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## Laserjock (Mar 25, 2006)

Actually, you better make sure the design is not protected in some form by CAO, because designs can be. As mentioned before, it is not necessarily a patent, but that design may, and most likely is, trademarked or copyrighted.

If you added one more "block" to make it 5 or even 6 and therefore more round in shape you might have something more unique that might avoid issues.

I love the shape of the ashtray...just wish they had made the surfaces less deep and therefore making the ash receptacle itself bigger.


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## Cigarin-Martin (Jun 11, 2008)

Awesome idea Adam! Good luck with it m8 :tu


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## GrtndpwrflOZ (May 17, 2007)

This is Awesome. We have Legal Counsel.
Thankyou.

So if a few of us are in. Lets run with this.
A CS Original. Unless we can not asume with the CS.
Anyway,
I'll kick out a round one and see how that looks.
Actually I can desgn anything. Then we need to design it to be able to manufacture it. Then to mfg. it cost effective.
I'll create any 3D Solidmodel you want.

I myself will NOT pay 5 bills for an ashtray.


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## ResIpsa (Mar 8, 2006)

GrtndpwrflOZ said:


> This is Awesome. *We have Legal Counsel*.
> Thankyou.
> 
> So if a few of us are in. Lets run with this.
> ...


Outstanding!

Good luck to you.


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## sonick (Jan 30, 2007)

ResIpsa said:


> While it's easy to disagree about IP law , the issue is not trademarks, rather whether or not that particular design is protected under copyright, a distinct area of IP law. Copyrights do not need to be registered to be protected, although it IS a good idea to do so.
> 
> An item can have both form and function, be protected as to one and not the other under existing copyright law.
> 
> An ashtray referred to as "cubist" is being referred to as a particular art form,by the maker, art is certainly protected under copyright law, and I'll just say that IMHO that design is protected under copyright law, and we can agree to disagree.:tu


My opinion was a lot more casual observer conjecture than what sounds like direct knowledge that you have, so I'll roll with you on this one 

Which reminds me, I need to create a "this is just my opinion, take with large grain of salt" signature......


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## elderboy02 (Jun 24, 2008)

-MG- said:


> I'm willing to help if I can.. I've got a small-scale CNC machine and made this one as well as another that I can't show until Saturday (it was made as a gift, and I'm not sure if the recipient is a memeber of the board).
> 
> I can do aluminum as well...


I like that wood one! I am more interested in this design.


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## Footbag (May 14, 2008)

In case copyrights become an issue.


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## GrtndpwrflOZ (May 17, 2007)

Lookat that sh|t
Now we're talkin'










ROUND


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## Footbag (May 14, 2008)

$1200 for steel. Let's not do it in steel.:ss


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## MNWanger (Jun 2, 2008)

Cool stuff!!! Wish I had the coin to participate.


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## Footbag (May 14, 2008)

One more design, a little bit funky.


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## Ironfreak (Apr 28, 2006)

Footbag said:


> One more design, a little bit funky.


You obviously missed your calling, bro. You were meant to create ash trays.. :tu

I am down for anything that you have worked up. They all look cool..


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## groogs (Oct 13, 2007)

That round one looks awsome. If you don't want to spend the extra $$ on the brushed finished, just get it right of the mill and sand it with a 1000, or 1200 grit sandpaper. Then you can polish it with a die grinder and it will have a mirror finish. Just an idea.


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## Freight (Sep 28, 2007)

I also like the round ashtray. If the price is right, I might just buy it if $$$ permits of course. :tu


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## Cigarin-Martin (Jun 11, 2008)

Would injection moulded acrylic in grey/silver be an option.The brewerys always used to use em as promo/advertising in pubs? The range of designs n details you could do would be huge.Just my :2 to keep costs down. Good luck :tu


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## CHRONO14 (Feb 4, 2008)

I may be in for a few depending on price of course. I do like that round one.


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## GrtndpwrflOZ (May 17, 2007)

I just sent a print of a 9" round tray to my machinist for a quote. I'm curious to see what he comes back with.
I am thinking it is going to be crazy high $$$.

Aluminum......

B


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## Footbag (May 14, 2008)

Cigarin-Martin said:


> Would injection moulded acrylic in grey/silver be an option.The brewerys always used to use em as promo/advertising in pubs? The range of designs n details you could do would be huge.Just my :2 to keep costs down. Good luck :tu


It's a possibility, but I would be very resistant to use any plastic's in an ashtray. Plus the mold setup costs a lot. Crystal cut glass would be a possibility, but expensive, and there are still some seams.

Also, this is something that could be made in China for cheaper, but I've got a thing for American made goods.

I do work in retail furniture and have a lot of experience with quality accessories. So work is a great place for me to look at finishes.


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## troutbreath (May 22, 2008)

That round one looks GREAT.


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## GrtndpwrflOZ (May 17, 2007)

Couldn't we just bead blast the thing?


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## pbrennan10 (Apr 9, 2007)

I'm an origami blackbelt. How about paper!


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## DonnieW (Jul 2, 2008)

Why not exotic wood? I've made several ashtrays out of real cool looking wood. Just curious what the OP sees in aluminum?


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## Footbag (May 14, 2008)

GrtndpwrflOZ said:


> Couldn't we just bead blast the thing?


That's a good and likely possibility. Beadblasting or sandblasting will likely be the cheapest option. That said, the more I read, the more I'm thinking it could look good with a brushed finish plus clear anodizing.

I'm also a bit worried that the tobacco oils would begin to stain the aluminum. As well, untreated aluminum can get stained with the oils from your hands.


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## Footbag (May 14, 2008)

DonnieW said:


> Why not exotic wood? I've made several ashtrays out of real cool looking wood. Just curious what the OP sees in aluminum?


I have nothing at all against wood. Being in the fine furniture business, I love the look of exotic woods. I have a lot of exotic pieces of furniture in my house. I also have a refinisher that I work with. This would make a great ashtray...








Image from http://www.hearnehardwoods.com (Awesome site!)

But at $1000 for the piece of wood, my expensive taste extends from wood to aluminum back to wood again. Plus, most very exotic woods are only feasable as veneers which won't work well with the heat. Also, wood is flammable.

When I first saw the ashtray, aluminum shot into my head. I think that's why I'm running with that.

Now as for the piece of wood above. I could probably get solid aluminum legs machined and... WAIT... Back to the ashtray...


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## GrtndpwrflOZ (May 17, 2007)

Be it that it is 10:41am would that be considered morning wood?


BWUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


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## DonnieW (Jul 2, 2008)

Footbag said:


> I have nothing at all against wood. Being in the fine furniture business, I love the look of exotic woods. I have a lot of exotic pieces of furniture in my house. I also have a refinisher that I work with. This would make a great ashtray...
> 
> Image from http://www.hearnehardwoods.com (Awesome site!)
> 
> ...


That piece is beautiful!! It would make a great ashtray. While I'm not in the woodworking business, I do have a lot of hand-me-down knowledge. I learned what woods work good for ashtrays and can tell you in sincere form that you couldn't burn most exotic woods if you tried. Add to that a nice spray finish and you've got a very durable piece. Might want to consider some other woods than those you suspect might burn or otherwise be trouble. I use some really rare woods that cost no more than 30-40 bucks. Even burls are cheap now. I just sprayed the first coat on this very simple CNC'd exotic wood yesterday.


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## GrtndpwrflOZ (May 17, 2007)

Wood= $30 - $40 a piece.
Where do I find such beautiful wood?
Gives me a reason to go out and by wood working tools.
Now to buy somebody to clean up the garage after I learn to use these tools.


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## -MG- (Apr 22, 2008)

GrtndpwrflOZ said:


> Wood= $30 - $40 a piece.
> Where do I find such beautiful wood?
> Gives me a reason to go out and by wood working tools.
> Now to buy somebody to clean up the garage after I learn to use these tools.


I get most of mine at Rockler, Woodcraft, and places online such as: 
http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/store/Turning_Materials___Turning_Blanks?Args=

Not sure if it's the best pricing, but it's worked well for me.


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## DonnieW (Jul 2, 2008)

GrtndpwrflOZ said:


> Wood= $30 - $40 a piece.
> Where do I find such beautiful wood?
> Gives me a reason to go out and by wood working tools.
> Now to buy somebody to clean up the garage after I learn to use these tools.


North America has some of the best prices on wood. With the exception of some burls, most wood capable of being machined into an ashtray will cost you from $15-$75. The cocobolo piece I had is fairly easy to come by, although finding any wood in 8/4 or 12/4 is sometimes hard. Basically you just look for the good deals on good pieces.


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## Footbag (May 14, 2008)

GrtndpwrflOZ said:


> I just sent a print of a 9" round tray to my machinist for a quote. I'm curious to see what he comes back with.
> I am thinking it is going to be crazy high $$$.
> 
> Aluminum......
> ...


I'm having a feeling the round will be more expensive then the square. It's coming from the same block of aluminum, but requires a LOT more machine time. It also need something else to give it a little bit more interest. Like either legs or a cool industrial design.

Silk screening would be awesome on these. As well, once we get the ashtrays, they could be plated in silver, gold or platinum.


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## DonnieW (Jul 2, 2008)

I don't want to discourage anyone from using aluminum, but I know from experience it sucks all kinds. Sure it looks slick but it oxidizes quickly if unprotected. You need to use automotive finishes on it if you want to protect it, however, I've not found a good finish that resists yellowing from cigar heat. what's worse, as soon as there is a small scratch in the finish, the coating will let air and moisture in, next comes that dreaded pitting and flaking. We've all seen it on car our cars rims 

Again... not trying to discourage it.


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## DonnieW (Jul 2, 2008)

Footbag said:


> I'm having a feeling the round will be more expensive then the square. It's coming from the same block of aluminum, but requires a LOT more machine time. It also need something else to give it a little bit more interest. Like either legs or a cool industrial design.
> 
> Silk screening would be awesome on these. As well, once we get the ashtrays, they could be plated in silver, gold or platinum.


Put some reliefs in the bottom, maybe three of them 1" each. Just a sugegstion.


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## Footbag (May 14, 2008)

-MG- said:


> I get most of mine at Rockler, Woodcraft, and places online such as:
> http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/store/Turning_Materials___Turning_Blanks?Args=
> 
> Not sure if it's the best pricing, but it's worked well for me.


Great links, I've never seen prices like that, although not much 8X8X3 stock is available. It is a great option though. I really wouldn't mind getting a few of the current designs made in wood just as prototypes. If anyone is willing to try to turn out a few wooden prototypes, I would be willing to buy some of the wood stock. 
I'm not sure how tough it is to set up a mill to cut wood, or if our current designs would be easily plugged into the computer or if it's more hand work. As long as there are no unforseen expenses, there would be an ashtray in it for you.
Until I have interest for over 25 aluminum ashtrays, though, I'm still getting quotes. I'm thinking the most I'd pay is about $250 for the aluminum.

If we could only make them out of used cigar butt's and beer caps.:r


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## DonnieW (Jul 2, 2008)

Footbag said:


> ...I'm not sure how tough it is to set up a mill to cut wood, or if our current designs would be easily plugged into the computer or if it's more hand work.


Setting up the CNC is the same regardless of the material. Wood is far easier to work with for many reasons, some so simple you'd never even have thought of it. I suspect because of this you will get great prices from wood shops. I like your prototype idea, if anything you could leave the wood unfinished and use it as a tray for punches/cutters/lighters/etc. I've done that with a few myself.


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## yayson (Aug 21, 2006)

GrtndpwrflOZ said:


> I just sent a print of a 9" round tray to my machinist for a quote. I'm curious to see what he comes back with.
> I am thinking it is going to be crazy high $$$.
> 
> Aluminum......
> ...


I am a project manager for a machine tool spindle repair facility. We have the equipment to make this stuff if anyone needs a quote. We also repair machines for thousands of shops that could produce this as well. I'd be happy to do any legwork required on sourcing this.

I believe Tzaddi has redone the CS LLG round logo in Illustrator. If so we can't be far from porting that over to a DWG and CAD/CAM can we? Be a sweet marca on the bottom (or somewhere more prominent if the design allows).

If we have the talent here to finalize the design, provide CAD drawings and machinging programs on the free we might get the cost low enough to do a group buy.


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## Footbag (May 14, 2008)

yayson said:


> I am a project manager for a machine tool spindle repair facility. We have the equipment to make this stuff if anyone needs a quote. We also repair machines for thousands of shops that could produce this as well. I'd be happy to do any legwork required on sourcing this.
> 
> I believe Tzaddi has redone the CS LLG round logo in Illustrator. If so we can't be far from porting that over to a DWG and CAD/CAM can we? Be a sweet marca on the bottom (or somewhere more prominent if the design allows).
> 
> If we have the talent here to finalize the design, provide CAD drawings and machinging programs on the free we might get the cost low enough to do a group buy.


I think the strategy right now is to get as many quotes as possible. Feel free to try. If you can use the current drawings, then give them a shot. Also, any insight on cost saving would be great. 
I'm willing to do a good amount of the work, and put up some money; but everything I know about CAD and machining I learned yesterday. So take it FWIW.


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## Shervin (May 29, 2008)

Footbag said:


> I know many of you have seen the CAO Cubist ashtray.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*Group buy!!!*​
I know of a gent thats sitting on 10 of these puppy's and would let'em go for $90 a pop! I'm good for one myself, anyone interested?


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## yayson (Aug 21, 2006)

Footbag said:


> I think the strategy right now is to get as many quotes as possible. Feel free to try. If you can use the current drawings, then give them a shot. Also, any insight on cost saving would be great.
> I'm willing to do a good amount of the work, and put up some money; but everything I know about CAD and machining I learned yesterday. So take it FWIW.


We have 2 CAD drafters here and a guy or 2 that can plan and program the production on the machines we have. They've been happy to do side things in the past. Problem is we are now just completely swamped and keeping these machines booked, not to mention the personnel.

I will run it by them, I doubt we can do anything any time soon as far as production goes but they could surely give us a better idea of how to go about designing, planning and what type of shop would be able to knock it out at the best price.

One question that I can think of off the top of my head: *what's the material*? I think aluminum would look dank after a while but it would hold up nice. I wouldn't mind some nice hardwood since you don't really grind or stub a cigar out, don't see much danger of marring the wood in that way, even after a long period of time.

One thing's for sure, machining, especially this many complicated angles and shapes, is gonna be way more expensive than using some kind of material you can use a mold with. If you wanna do some engraving on it as well (CAM engraving the CS LLG logo with a microspindle) then you might even be talking about using 2 separate shops :hn


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## -MG- (Apr 22, 2008)

Depending on what the group wants, and the timelines involved, I'm still willing to use my smaller CNC if it fits the requirements. I know I can do 6x6x3, but don't know for sure if I can pull off 8x8x3. 

We've done a couple out of wood with good success, but getting a nice finish (no/little tool marks, etc.) may be difficult on aluminum.

We do all the CAD/CAM in house (just my brother and I), but we aren't a real machine shop, just a side business/hobby, so I couldn't turn them out very quickly.


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## Ironfreak (Apr 28, 2006)

Shervin said:


> *Group buy!!!*​
> *I know of a gent thats sitting on 10 of these puppy's and would let'em go for $90 a pop*! I'm good for one myself, anyone interested?


I don't think many people will group buy at $90 for the CAO Cubist since it's selling for $49 on CI.. :r

http://www.cigarsinternational.com/proddisp.asp?item=M-MPASH1&stext=cubist


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## Shervin (May 29, 2008)

Ironfreak said:


> I don't think many people will group buy at $90 for the CAO Cubist since it's selling for $49 on CI.. :r
> 
> http://www.cigarsinternational.com/proddisp.asp?item=M-MPASH1&stext=cubist


Thanks for the heads up!!!:chk


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## yayson (Aug 21, 2006)

-MG- said:


> Depending on what the group wants, and the timelines involved, I'm still willing to use my smaller CNC if it fits the requirements. I know I can do 6x6x3, but don't know for sure if I can pull off 8x8x3.
> 
> We've done a couple out of wood with good success, but getting a nice finish (no/little tool marks, etc.) may be difficult on aluminum.
> 
> We do all the CAD/CAM in house (just my brother and I), but we aren't a real machine shop, just a side business/hobby, so I couldn't turn them out very quickly.


Sorry I missed your earlier posts MG, very nice work, you look like a man that's bitten off a big project if everyone gets wound up on the idea


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## bigdog20 (Jul 18, 2007)

who cares if it says CAO and you dont have the sticks. just a brand. i say if you like the cubist one, then get it! i am looking into getting either a Ashton ashtray or cool Cohiba one... do i smoke any of these stogies? very rarely. i just like the cool look!


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## Footbag (May 14, 2008)

-MG- said:


> Depending on what the group wants, and the timelines involved, I'm still willing to use my smaller CNC if it fits the requirements. I know I can do 6x6x3, but don't know for sure if I can pull off 8x8x3.
> 
> We've done a couple out of wood with good success, but getting a nice finish (no/little tool marks, etc.) may be difficult on aluminum.
> 
> We do all the CAD/CAM in house (just my brother and I), but we aren't a real machine shop, just a side business/hobby, so I couldn't turn them out very quickly.


If you wanted to give it a shot, we can probably downscale the design to take either 6" X 6" or 8" X 8". A smaller scale prototype will give us an idea of whether it will actually hold the cigars well, or if we need to change a few angles. If you're willing, just tell me what you'll need.
Thanks MG!


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## extrmblzr1 (Jan 22, 2008)

I am in the process of getting a piece of Al. to make one. I work on a mill. And can do these after hours. I just want to try one before I commit to a group. I am just wondering how many would like one.


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## Footbag (May 14, 2008)

extrmblzr1 said:


> I am in the process of getting a piece of Al. to make one. I work on a mill. And can do these after hours. I just want to try one before I commit to a group. *I am just wondering how many would like one.*


This depends on the price. We should try to gauge interest by price. If you can manage to get it under $300 for the first aluminum one, then I think we have something to work with.

Of those who are interested, what is the max you think is reasonable? $50, $100, $200, $300 or $500. We could possibly use different finishes/materials for each price point from wood to aluminum.


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## DonnieW (Jul 2, 2008)

Footbag said:


> ... We could possibly use different finishes/materials for each price point from wood to aluminum.


That is a very sensible approach. :tu


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## yayson (Aug 21, 2006)

DonnieW said:


> That is a very sensible approach. :tu


I'd think more of the cost would be tied up in labor/shop hours (as opposed to material)?

I myself am not the type to shell out a lot for an ashtray, I use the ground or a tin box I found in my garage when we moved in  If it got under a hundred, more likely under 50 I've give it consideration


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## extrmblzr1 (Jan 22, 2008)

I priced out a 9x9x3 Al is $156 just in material. I can get the machining done for free up to 5. let me know.


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## Footbag (May 14, 2008)

extrmblzr1 said:


> I priced out a 9x9x3 Al is $156 just in material. I can get the machining done for free up to 5. let me know.


Wow, we're almost there. It may help us to do one out of wood before we move to the more expensive aluminum.

That said, we may be ready for aluminum within the week.


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## Footbag (May 14, 2008)

I kind of like this design also.










I have found that anything molded is going to be at least $1200 for the first one. So it's either wood or aluminum.


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## DonnieW (Jul 2, 2008)

yayson said:


> I'd think more of the cost would be tied up in labor/shop hours (as opposed to material)?


You're right and I agree, to a point. The shop time is somewhat close regardless of the material. The CNC doesn't care what its cutting. I cut plastic, wood, aluminum, etc. using the exact same drawing and only a few mods on how it cuts. Setup time is more or less the same as well. 

But! Once the first prototype is done, the tables turn completely. At that point it's all material cost. This is providing the CNC nails everything. It's not safe to assume the CNC will do everything in the drawing, which would be a big mistake. You'll only know once you carve one out of foam or wood. One must also add in a scrap piece - so when you're messing with blocks of aluminum at hundreds a pop, someone will need to absorb it. Blades go bad, things f*up, it's just the way it goes in the shop.

I wouldn't spend more than 50 bucks on materials, I add a few hours of my own personal time and I yield ashtrays worth a lot more. But then again, I gift all mine, so it's got a completely different connotation than this thread does.


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## Silound (May 22, 2007)

A simple round bowl ashtray can be done with a lathe and a faceplate to turn on, nothing complicated about that. I've made dozens.

The cubist is something more difficult, but I believe that can be done by hand with a plunge router and some crafty jigging. Make a sloped jig and mount it to the center face and plunge off the angled walls, then make an overhead jig to depth the bowl.


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## -MG- (Apr 22, 2008)

-MG- said:


> ...as well as another that I can't show until Saturday (it was made as a gift, and I'm not sure if the recipient is a member of the board)...


Now that the gift's been given, here's the other ashtray I was talking about:

Pic1
Pic2



Footbag said:


> If you wanted to give it a shot, we can probably downscale the design to take either 6" X 6" or 8" X 8". A smaller scale prototype will give us an idea of whether it will actually hold the cigars well, or if we need to change a few angles. If you're willing, just tell me what you'll need.
> Thanks MG!


If it could be pulled off in a 6x6x2 block (I have plenty of that size handy, and didn't pay too much for it) I could probably give it a try next weekend. In order to get a nice clean cut on the angles I'd have to rotate the cutter head, which isn't difficult in itself to do but I need to experiment with running CNC programs with the head at an angle and see if there are any unexpected issues in doing that which I'm not aware of.

Also.. Was there any consensus about the potential legal/copyright issues?


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## Throb (Jan 12, 2006)

Just for the record, if round aluminum can be made for $100 or less before the X-mas shopping season (when I don't have any money), I'm in!

These designs look great.


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## Footbag (May 14, 2008)

-MG- said:


> Also.. Was there any consensus about the potential legal/copyright issues?


OK, I had a few chats and did a ton of reading on copyright law. This would fall under "Fair Use" which is very vague. Although it would be very difficult to win a case of copyright infringement, clothing and accessories designers try and lose every day; I don't think that I or anyone else would want to even have to respond to any sort of cease and desist letter.

There is no actual % or difference it must be, BUT and this is kind of significant. Cubism or cubist sculpture cannot be copyrighted and even if this design is, it wouldn't prevent us from creating our own using inspiration from the original piece. As far as past precedent legal is concerned, ANY variation on the original design;(material, size, shape, function) would stand up in court; but once again court is further then I'm willing to go.

My opinion would be to go with the round one.


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## DonnieW (Jul 2, 2008)

Footbag said:


> OK, I had a few chats and did a ton of reading on copyright law. This would fall under "Fair Use" which is very vague. Although it would be very difficult to win a case of copyright infringement, clothing and accessories designers try and lose every day; I don't think that I or anyone else would want to even have to respond to any sort of cease and desist letter.
> 
> There is no actual % or difference it must be, BUT and this is kind of significant. Cubism or cubist sculpture cannot be copyrighted and even if this design is, it wouldn't prevent us from creating our own using inspiration from the original piece. As far as past precedent legal is concerned, ANY variation on the original design;(material, size, shape, function) would stand up in court; but once again court is further then I'm willing to go.
> 
> My opinion would be to go with the round one.


Putting my investigator hat on, and to slightly poop on the parade, if anyone wanted to pursue a claim against you they could subject Club Stogie to an Anton Pillar order. That is, they could rightfully scoop all the info off this site to find out the real identities, etc. Thus, your choice to go with a round design is a wise one.

Now back to the program.


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## Footbag (May 14, 2008)

DonnieW said:


> Putting my investigator hat on, and to slightly poop on the parade, if anyone wanted to pursue a claim against you they could subject Club Stogie to an Anton Pillar order. That is, they could rightfully scoop all the info off this site to find out the real identities, etc. Thus, your choice to go with a round design is a wise one.
> 
> Now back to the program.


In other words... the way to win this battle is not to fight it!

We'll most likely pursue the round.


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## DonnieW (Jul 2, 2008)

Footbag said:


> In other words... the way to win this battle is not to fight it!
> 
> We'll most likely pursue the round.


Sure, in the process you'll be designing your own creation! Personally I think they should have done the CAO in round shape in the first place. I have one and think its great if left stationary, but not so great if you're handling it - due to its block form.


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## Mark-60 (Jul 30, 2008)

What would it look like if you put the holders at the corners of the inside "bowl", instead of at the flats?


-Mark.


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## Cigarin-Martin (Jun 11, 2008)

Hows this project going Adam, anymore progress? :ss


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## Footbag (May 14, 2008)

I have a guy locally to do the work, but my cousin's friend offered to CNC it out of foam. Once I make sure the dimensions are right in the proto, I'll go for the better materials.


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## GrtndpwrflOZ (May 17, 2007)

Mat'l cost for the rounds (before machining) from my machine shop is $55.
I have to call for what labor will run.

update soon.

B


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## Footbag (May 14, 2008)

GrtndpwrflOZ said:


> Mat'l cost for the rounds (before machining) from my machine shop is $55.
> I have to call for what labor will run.
> 
> update soon.
> ...


Wow, that's a lot less then I've heard so far. I'm very interested in hearing their total price. Thanks!


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## slickbt (May 25, 2008)

I just discovered this thread, and I am definitely interested.

For the finish, wouldn't something like Gunkote or Duracoat work to prevent oxidation? It is fairly inexpensive and available in many colors.


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## foomanto (Jun 14, 2008)

would it be cheaper to order a round bar close to the diameter of the ash try and have it cut close to the hight that you want be for it gets milled. some of the customers at the shop i work at do that as far as bending and welding go don't know about getting it milled though.


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## pro2625 (Jun 25, 2008)

slickbt said:


> I just discovered this thread, and I am definitely interested.
> 
> For the finish, wouldn't something like Gunkote or Duracoat work to prevent oxidation? It is fairly inexpensive and available in many colors.


Gunkote and duracoat dont work very good in my experiences. What you guys need to use is the duplicolor hight heat 1200 degrees with ceramic....Make sure the part is super clean them paint it. Pop it in the oven for 3 hours at 350 degrees and you will have a hell of a reliable finish.

I use it on all my guns and it works better than duracote or gunkote


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## wingedwheel (Mar 11, 2007)

i love reading think tank ideas like this. Just throwing out more ideas out there. what about exotic wood with metal top plates to rest cigars on so they dont burn. just idea. like the round one you guys are doing a nice job.


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## extrmblzr1 (Jan 22, 2008)

http://www.texcigars.com/p1044/CAO-Cubist-Ashtray/product_info.html

CAO CUBIST FOR $48.99


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## pearson (May 27, 2008)

those are some cool ideas on a awesome ashtray.


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## Big Dawg (Sep 1, 2006)

I'm using it as I type this post... one heck of a nice looking ashtray but also my favorite that I've used in terms of it's functionality as well.


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## RRocket (Aug 17, 2008)

I am also a CAD Designer and a Master CNC Machinist. I would suggest, to keep costs down, the middle ashtray pocket part...instead of sharp corners, making them have at least 1/4" radius. That way, it can be cut with a .500" cutter rather than having to go down incrementally smaller until the corner is nearly sharp. Would save alot of time.

I have a close friend who has a CNC machine in his garage, and he could machine 1-2 of these per day. You could buy round stock in aluminum (say in a length of 3-4 feet), then cut thick pieces off as thick as needed for the ashtray's height. This way, there is zero machining on the outside profile, and the only needed machine time is the slopes and middle pocket part. Then you bead blast the outside or polish the whole thing. I also know a polisher.  

Please let me know if I can be of further help.


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## crp5 (Oct 10, 2007)

What is the CAO cubist made out of? I read that is weighs almost 6 lbs.


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## wayner123 (Mar 29, 2007)

crp5 said:


> What is the CAO cubist made out of? I read that is weighs almost 6 lbs.


Concrete and a chrome like paint covering.

I think formed concrete would be the most cost effective. Find a flame retardant coating, and off you go.


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## GrtndpwrflOZ (May 17, 2007)

I am in awe.
I am a Mechanical Designer and I could only wish to ever become a Master CNC Machinist. Hell, I don't eer think I'll be a machinist. I wish I was thrown into a Machine shop for about 5 years before starting my design career.



RRocket said:


> I am also a CAD Designer and a Master CNC Machinist. I would suggest, to keep costs down, the middle ashtray pocket part...instead of sharp corners, making them have at least 1/4" radius. That way, it can be cut with a .500" cutter rather than having to go down incrementally smaller until the corner is nearly sharp. Would save alot of time.
> 
> I have a close friend who has a CNC machine in his garage, and he could machine 1-2 of these per day. You could buy round stock in aluminum (say in a length of 3-4 feet), then cut thick pieces off as thick as needed for the ashtray's height. This way, there is zero machining on the outside profile, and the only needed machine time is the slopes and middle pocket part. Then you bead blast the outside or polish the whole thing. I also know a polisher.
> 
> Please let me know if I can be of further help.


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## mrreindeer (Sep 4, 2008)

extrmblzr1 said:


> http://www.texcigars.com/p1044/CAO-Cubist-Ashtray/product_info.html
> 
> CAO CUBIST FOR $48.99


Thanks for this; I really want the Cubist but would consider rewarding the posters for their hard work. For the group buy of the ones you're making, how much are we talking and are you taking orders? Do you have an ETA?

Do you have any pictures of it (or the prototype) yet? I'm sorry if I missed any pics on the various pages. I did see the square one that was the original design but I know you've changed it up since.

I saw the Sopranos limited edition set and the free CAO Cubist ashtray for $100 but seriously, those cigars are just a joke right? Only novelty?

Is the $48 deal above still the best price anyone's found? Any other cool ashtrays out there I might not know about that are good deals? I'm currently using a candy dish. A nice one, but I need a 'tray.


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## crp5 (Oct 10, 2007)

Bringing this back to the top to see if any further work has been done. If not, can one of you send me the cad file? I have a local machine shop that can hog some metal for me if I can get him the file. PM me for my direct email addy. Thanks, Chris


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## epyon26 (Dec 16, 2007)

its just an ashtray, dont think about it to much, if you like it buy it. :ss


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## Footbag (May 14, 2008)

crp5 said:


> Bringing this back to the top to see if any further work has been done. If not, can one of you send me the cad file? I have a local machine shop that can hog some metal for me if I can get him the file. PM me for my direct email addy. Thanks, Chris


U have a PM.


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## crp5 (Oct 10, 2007)

This one is my favorite so far. PM sent.



Footbag said:


> I kind of like this design also.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Scott W. (Jul 10, 2008)

Footbag said:


> Isn't it recessed?


Fill in the CAO with JB weld, its like an epoxy or something like that. Fill in the letters.let it dry for a bit then dremel the edges. You can repaint the ashtray. JB weld drys a charcoal like grey (i've been told, I'm color blind). Try it on something similarly colored to see how you like it. Jb weld costs a few dollars per tube, you work it with your fingers like putty then apply. It won't come off after it dries, unless heavily sanded with a dremel or grinder. Food for thought.

Incidently, I got a R y J ashtray with an 8 cigar sampler and I don't smoke RyJ's a lot, they are good but I have many other sticks.


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## Scott W. (Jul 10, 2008)

mrreindeer said:


> Thanks for this; I really want the Cubist but would consider rewarding the posters for their hard work. For the group buy of the ones you're making, how much are we talking and are you taking orders? Do you have an ETA?
> 
> Do you have any pictures of it (or the prototype) yet? I'm sorry if I missed any pics on the various pages. I did see the square one that was the original design but I know you've changed it up since.
> 
> ...


Did you lose the oliva one?? That was a nice tray.


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## mrreindeer (Sep 4, 2008)

no no......still have the Upmann ashtray from NY and back in September I went ahead and pulled the trigger on the CAO Cubist. I bought it from my B&M who ordered it and gave me a sick deal @ $39. Great chattin' with you last night Scott! :tu


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## Scott W. (Jul 10, 2008)

mrreindeer said:


> no no......still have the Upmann ashtray from NY and back in September I went ahead and pulled the trigger on the CAO Cubist. I bought it from my B&M who ordered it and gave me a sick deal @ $39. Great chattin' with you last night Scott! :tu


I enjoyed it too! Hope Mrs. Reindeer lit the right end! Sounds like you guys were having fun!


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## cigllortars (Mar 16, 2010)

GrtndpwrflOZ said:


> Get the CAO ashtray and remove the CAO with solvant.


I own a cubist, and actually you can just pry off the letters. Or at least on mine...


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