# Health Care Bill Rant



## Alpedhuez55 (Dec 16, 2005)

Nice that Tobacco users are the only ones who will have to pay more for the proposed Government Health Plan. I mean if you are a Heroin junkie, pothead, speed freak or coke fiend...you get the regular low rate. But if you are a smoker...you will get the higher rates.

Also as a Independent Health Insurance agent...I am going to be one of the over 100,000 agents forced to look for new work if this passes. The current bill in the house will ban any new private individual policies. Everyone looking for a new plan will need to sign up for a Government Plan. Health Savings accounts would be outlawed. And it will pretty much put an end to the non group insurance industry.


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## commonsenseman (Apr 18, 2008)

Good rant man. :anim_soapbox:

Nothing good will come of this. We are going down a VERY dangerous road.


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## slyder (Mar 17, 2009)

You forgot to mention that they plan on taxing tobacco more in order to pay for this health care. Also they plan on taxing sugary drinks!!


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## suretolose (Jul 8, 2009)

I am sick of being the easy target. Be sure to join CRA.


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## slyder (Mar 17, 2009)

why dont we tax other stuff like Q-tips? People use the crap outta those. Or toilet paper? How about soap?


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## commonsenseman (Apr 18, 2008)

slyder said:


> why dont we tax other stuff like Q-tips? People use the crap outta those. Or toilet paper? How about soap?


We should really start taxing water, it's killed WAY more people than tobacco.


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## Cletus (Apr 8, 2009)

Alpedhuez55 said:


> Nice that Tobacco users are the only ones who will have to pay more for the proposed Government Health Plan. I mean if you are a Heroin junkie, pothead, speed freak or coke fiend...you get the regular low rate. But if you are a smoker...you will get the higher rates.
> 
> Also as a Independent Health Insurance agent...I am going to be one of the over 100,000 agents forced to look for new work if this passes. The current bill in the house will ban any new private individual policies. Everyone looking for a new plan will need to sign up for a Government Plan. Health Savings accounts would be outlawed. And it will pretty much put an end to the non group insurance industry.


I searched around but couldn't find any references to the proposed bills charging higher rates for smokers, or that individual private policies would be banned. Do you have any links you can post with this that discuss this information?

.


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## Alpedhuez55 (Dec 16, 2005)

Cletus said:


> I searched around but couldn't find any references to the proposed bills charging higher rates for smokers, or that individual private policies would be banned. Do you have any links you can post with this that discuss this information?
> 
> .


This is in regards to the Senate Bill:

_(CNSNews.com) - Under the terms of the health-care reform bill approved by the Senate Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee, the legal use of tobacco products is the only vice for which insurance companies will be able to charge their customers higher premiums.

The summary of the bill published by the committee specifically states that premiums may be varied to account for tobacco use, but any other use of a person's record of insurance claims, health status or medical history will be forbidden.

In other words, a person could have been admitted to hospitals three times for heroin overdoses, or been pregnant five times out of wedlock, or been treated for venereal diseases at least once per year for the past five years, but none of these factors could be used to charge that person a higher insurance premium.

If they smoked a pipe it would be a different story-depending, of course, on what was in the pipe. They could be charged a higher premium if it was tobacco-but apparently not if it was marijuana, hashish or crack cocaine.
_

CNSNews.com - Tobacco Useâ€"Not Promiscuity or Drug Abuseâ€"Will Be Only Vice Legally Punishable by Higher Insurance Premiums Under Senate Health Care Bill​
Yes it is a Right Wing news source, but it is not like any of the mainstream media is going to trash the Health Care bill or anything regarding smoker fees.

This is from page 16 of HR 3200:

_SEC. 102. PROTECTING THE CHOICE TO KEEP CURRENT COVERAGE.

(a) Grandfathered Health Insurance Coverage Defined- Subject to the succeeding provisions of this section, for purposes of establishing acceptable coverage under this division, the term 'grandfathered health insurance coverage' means individual health insurance coverage that is offered and in force and effect before the first day of Y1 if the following conditions are met:
(1) LIMITATION ON NEW ENROLLMENT

(A) IN GENERAL- Except as provided in this paragraph, the individual health insurance issuer offering such coverage does not enroll any individual in such coverage if the first effective date of coverage is on or after the first day of Y1.​_
What this is saying is that if you were to leave a group plan and start your own business, or were on a private plan and wanted to switch companies...you cannot. Your only option is to buy into the Federal Plan. This will essentially kill off private insurance for individuals and small groups.

Who knows what the final bill will look like. But both bills have a lot of bad stuff in them.


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## mc2712 (Mar 14, 2008)

If this ridiculous bill passes we are all screwed, and because of our hobby we will once again have to pay the price. This is unnesessary legisation to pander to some for purely political reasons.


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## Rubix^3 (Nov 10, 2008)

All of a sudden, those folks who build compounds out in the middle of nowhere, stockpiling food etc... are starting to not look so crazy.


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## Jack Straw (Nov 20, 2008)

This honestly makes me want to herf/protest outside the house/senate office buildings with signs.


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## baba (Nov 5, 2007)

Alpedhuez55 said:


> Nice that Tobacco users are the only ones who will have to pay more for the proposed Government Health Plan. I mean if you are a Heroin junkie, pothead, speed freak or coke fiend...you get the regular low rate. But if you are a smoker...you will get the higher rates.
> 
> Also as a Independent Health Insurance agent...I am going to be one of the over 100,000 agents forced to look for new work if this passes. The current bill in the house will ban any new private individual policies. Everyone looking for a new plan will need to sign up for a Government Plan. Health Savings accounts would be outlawed. And it will pretty much put an end to the non group insurance industry.


Sorry to hear about your probable job loss. It will pass, the Dems are in controll of 3 branches of the government - They are so short sited. Obama says it will cost us nothing, and we will even save money??? Yea right - the CBO states it will cost 7-8 TRILLION dollas. Where is that going to come from. They are ready tax tobacco to the max.


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## Cletus (Apr 8, 2009)

Alpedhuez55 said:


> Yes it is a Right Wing news source, but it is not like any of the mainstream media is going to trash the Health Care bill or anything regarding smoker fees.


You know I suspected as much when I asked for the source. Unfortunately, like most "infotainment" outlets in America these days, this article contains some news and a lot of conjecture. It is more an editorial than a news piece. And I agree with you when you said, "Who knows what the final bill will look like."

For the record, I think a country providing health care for its citizens is a noble undertaking. I have been unemployed without health insurance and it is not a comfortable place to be. However, I think this health care bill will not see the light of day. There's just too much opposition.

.


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## Habanolover (Feb 22, 2006)

Cletus said:


> I think this health care bill will not see the light of day. There's just too much opposition.
> 
> .


We can only hope with all our might that you are correct with this statement!


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## Hermit (Aug 5, 2008)

The time is urgent.
This bill must be passed NOW! 
*(before anybody gets to read it.)*


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## Alpedhuez55 (Dec 16, 2005)

Cletus said:


> You know I suspected as much when I asked for the source. Unfortunately, like most "infotainment" outlets in America these days, this article contains some news and a lot of conjecture. It is more an editorial than a news piece. And I agree with you when you said, "Who knows what the final bill will look like."
> 
> For the record, I think a country providing health care for its citizens is a noble undertaking. I have been unemployed without health insurance and it is not a comfortable place to be. However, I think this health care bill will not see the light of day. There's just too much opposition.


Yes, that was the only media source mentioning the tobacco user rates. Unfortunately you have a media that is almost exclusively in the tank For Obama. You do not think ABC were going to allow critical questions in that so called "Town Square" Meeting. Unfortunately the negative things in this bill are not being pointed out by the regular media. So stories critical of these horrible bills that are trying to be fast tracked are breaking from places like talk radio and right wing media sources. But the facts in the story is accurate. The sad thing is that the media has not been pointing these points out as well as the massive tax increases that are being proposed on the wealthy and not so wealthy.

Yes it is a noble thing to expand the number of people with health insurance. But the simple fact is, this is going to increase the cost of health care to everyone else through taxes and higher premiums. But the reality is, we are in a recession. This bill will deepen the recession by adding to unemployment and putting a lot of companies out of business all together. You can address getting more people covered through subsidies to help make health care more affordable to low income people. But the problem with the plans as written is they are going to create a lot more low income people.

This is a dangerous power grab by a president and party who are seeing their popularity plummet. They are trying to take control over 20% of the economy. But we are in a recession already. Not exactly a good time to try to massive expansion in Government, on top of all the other massive expansions in Government we have already seen in the last six months.


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## Plop007 (Jul 8, 2009)

we should all chip some money in to making a big compound somewhere where we all could live in peace and smoke cigars. When all hell breaks loose we will be in a fortified cigar smoking base. Protect every puff member and family.


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## Frinkiac7 (Dec 12, 2008)

Do insurers count cigar smokers in the same category as regular cigarette smokers? Will Barry Hussein's plan?


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## sboyajian (Jun 27, 2008)

It's all in how you read it..

I don't smoke cigars.. I enjoy them.

So when I am asked if I smoke, I say no.. simple as that. If I only smoke 3 times a week, then I am not a "smoker".. they don't know how much I smoke..


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## Alpedhuez55 (Dec 16, 2005)

Frinkiac7 said:


> Do insurers count cigar smokers in the same category as regular cigarette smokers? Will Barry Hussein's plan?


Well, it depends on the final draft of the bill, but it is a safe bet cigars will be lumped in with cigarettes. Some private insurances do not make the distinction if they even have such a rider to begin with. But it looks like with the Government plan, the only preexisting condition will be smoking.

I think there are still five versions of Health Care Bills working through various committees. But it is safe to say the Tobacco Rider and non-compete clause will make it into whatever version passes.


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## phatmax (Mar 18, 2009)

IF this disaster passes, watch for the following.

You WILL be issued a "Health ID card" that will turn into an "ID card"

To make ANY purchase, you will have to use your "ID Card", whether it be online or in person. Your purchase history will go into a .gov database.

When you go to get healthcare, or other government service, this database will be queried for "tagged" items that change your "risk/health rating". (tobacco, booze, bacon, motorcycle gear, you name it)

So you will not be able to simply say "no, I don't smoke" because, unless you grow your own, the .gov WILL know about it.

Plus, expect that retailers will have to go through additional hoops to be "tobacco retailers" or, in other words, they will have to send their sales records to the .gov to maintain their licensing.

Absolute worst case, will be licensing of CITIZENS to even buy tobacco. If you want to even buy tobacco at a licensed outlet, you will have to show your "Tobacco User Card" and will only be allowed a certain amount to prevent "black-marketeering". If you don't have such a card, you will not be allow to buy tobacco.

This healthcare bill and the current state of affairs in .gov are about nothing more then absolute control over the people. If you want to believe it is altruistic in nature or tyrannical, you may, but either way, someone else is going to make life decisions FOR YOU.


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## baba (Nov 5, 2007)

Hermit said:


> The time is urgent.
> This bill must be passed NOW!
> *(before anybody gets to read it.)*


Good observation. BEFORE anyone READS it


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## commonsenseman (Apr 18, 2008)

phatmax said:


> IF this disaster passes, watch for the following.
> 
> You WILL be issued a "Health ID card" that will turn into an "ID card"
> 
> ...


:tinfoil3:

Haha! :bump:


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## phatmax (Mar 18, 2009)

It may be a little "tinfoil-y" but replace "tobacco product" with "guns" and the .gov pretty much already does all those things.

Waiting periods, background checks, Firearms purchasing cards, limits on purchases. Not on a federal level, yet, but at the state level, many states have draconian restrictions on firearms purchasing. That is a great model to follow if you want to make something difficult for people. And keep track of their behavior.


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## phatmax (Mar 18, 2009)

From Page 58 of the current legislation:

enable the real-time (or near real
time) determination of an individual's financial
responsibility at the point of service and, to the
extent possible, prior to service, including
whether the individual is eligible for a specific
service with a specific physician at a specific facility, which may include utilization of a *machine-readable health plan beneficiary identification card*;


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## commonsenseman (Apr 18, 2008)

Hey phatmax, I agree with you totally. Unless something drastic happens, we're looking at some pretty scary stuff in the near future.


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## phatmax (Mar 18, 2009)

commonsenseman said:


> Hey phatmax, I agree with you totally. Unless something drastic happens, we're looking at some pretty scary stuff in the near future.


No Sh!t... the next page after the ID card stuff.....Well they want to have real-time access to all your financial data and if THEY deem that you owe more for your "co-pay" they will AUTOMATICALLY deduct from your account.

GEE..... I wonder what will happen if they start running low on cash.... you will start to see wealth confiscated to pay for their socialist scheme.


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## commonsenseman (Apr 18, 2008)

Gives me the shivers just thinking about it.


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## CIGARMAN41360 (Jul 22, 2009)

This will be another failed attempt to run a private industry by the government. Scary as it seems if it passes it will be completely revamped within a year.


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## phatmax (Mar 18, 2009)

CIGARMAN41360 said:


> This will be another failed attempt to run a private industry by the government. Scary as it seems if it passes it will be completely revamped within a year.


The Canadians are now just starting to talk privatization of the medical industry. Problem is, they are now being taxed to death, but you know they are not going to drop the tax rates, even if the industry goes back to being private.


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## Cletus (Apr 8, 2009)

.

_Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you._

.


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## rborrell (Aug 30, 2006)

phatmax said:


> IF this disaster passes, watch for the following.
> 
> You WILL be issued a "Health ID card" that will turn into an "ID card"
> 
> ...


This is how health care started here in Canada. Luckily now instead of the ID card (that you have to take with at all times) we are having chips implanted under the skin (like a dog that is micro-chipped). That way everyone knows who you are and where you are at all times. When you have to go to the doctor or hospital, they just have to wand your chip and you're golden. There was talk of doing a tattoo with a bar-code on the arm, but someone in the party (... oh, I mean committee) said "what happens if their arm got cut off in an accident, we would not know who it is". A valid point really. So instead of multiple bar code tattoos (like on you car where they barcode the doors, hood, trunk, etc.) they decided to do the micro-chip thing.

Once the plan is fully implemented, you will be able to log in to a web site and look up the whereabouts of someone by their microchip ID. This will be great if you suspect that your spouse is cheating on you because it will use a GPS locator system to pinpoint where they are.

Sure the system may have abuse potential, but I trust the government will do the right thing. They have not lied to us before.

:wink:


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## Acesfull (Dec 9, 2007)

I dont want a chip implanted in me... or have to carry a gov issued healthcare ID card... if any of these pass.. Im moving to another country... and revoking my citizenship


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## baba (Nov 5, 2007)

I think one real tragedy is being overlook. Obama tells us this is will not cost us money - and that he does not want to tax people under a certain income. He tells us we are going to save millions or billions by cutting Medicare money.
If you cut Medicare - the hospitals and Doctors are going to increase their charges to Medicare patients, who are generally in a low, fixed income. So in effect - there will be a tax on low, fixed income individuals.
The guys at the bottom are going to pay.


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## nativetexan_1 (Jan 1, 2008)

The whole health care debate is strange. The authority to pay for or even manage health care is NOT in the Constitution. It is a state responsibility, and the states have chosen not to try to provide health care (except for unconstitutional federally funded programs).

The question should not be "whether" but "under what authority".


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## mc2712 (Mar 14, 2008)

nativetexan_1 said:


> The whole health care debate is strange. The authority to pay for or even manage health care is NOT in the Constitution. It is a state responsibility, and the states have chosen not to try to provide health care (except for unconstitutional federally funded programs).
> 
> The question should not be "whether" but "under what authority".


Here,Here. I could have not said it better.


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## Cigary (Oct 19, 2007)

Here is some info about the bill:

If this doesn't scare the $hit of us,,,,what will?

1. Pg 16: You can't change private insurance providers&#8230;can't change/modify your existing plan.

2. Pg 22: Gov't will audit books of ALL businesses that self insure.

3. Pg 29 Health care will be rationed.

4. Pg 30: Gov't committee determines all benefits.

5. Pg 50: Health insurance provided to all NON-CITIZENS including ILLEGALS.

6. Pg 58: Gov't will have total access to every individual American's personal finances.

7. Pg 58: Every American will be issued a national ID card.

8. Pg 65: Huge payoff to unions and ACORN.

9. Pg 84: Gov't determines benefits of PRIVATE health care plans.

10. Pg 124: No lawsuits allowed.

11. Pg 127: Gov't sets doctor salaries.

12. Pg 145: Employers must enroll all new employees into gov't plan.

13. Pg 149: All employers with payroll above 400k without 100% enrolled in gov't plan will be taxed an extra 8%.

14. Pg 150: All employers with payroll between 251-400k without 100% enrolled in gov't plan will be taxed an extra 2-6%.

15. Pg 167: All citizens without gov't health insurance will be taxed an extra 2.5%.

16. Pg 170: All illegals are exempt from taxes.

17. Pg 239: People older than 65 will have reduced medical services.

18. Pg 241: All doctors paid exact same salary. Specialties mean nothing.

19. Pg 317: Gov't dictates how much doctors can own in practice.

20. Pg 317-318: Hospitals cannot expand without approval from gov't and endorsement from ACORN.

21. Pg 341: Gov't can cancel private plans anytime, forcing the person into gov't plan.

22. Pg 354: Special needs people will be resticted. Off to the glue factory....

23. Pg 425: Gov't determines what will be in wills and durable powers of attorneys.

24. Pg 425: Gov't determines who is euthanized and when.

25. Pg 469: Home medical services will be provided by ACORN.

26. Pg 489: All marriage and family counseling will be provided by gov't.

A provision for mandatory counseling for those over 65.Will be required by the government to attend government counseling sessions to "advise" on health decisions. Page 425 from the house bill. Section 1233:

The measure requires "an explanation by the practitioner of the continuum of end-of-life services and supports available, including palliative care and hospice, and benefits for such services and supports that are available under this title." You will be required to attend government counseling on the benefits of end-of-life services!

From Obama's own lips: Power and Control: Obama: No Surgery - Take A Pain Killer

This is really very simple. The government can only control costs by cutting payments to doctors (meaning less doctors) and/or cutting services to patients. The language of the bill says that it "shall measure both the creation of and adherence to orders for life-sustaining

treatment." A similar "ordering" program is already is in effect in the United Kingdom, where patients losing their eyesight to age-related macular degeneration cannot be given an eyesight-saving medication until they lose sight in one eye. The counseling is also pretty simple.

They are going to try to convince you of the benefit to society of your just going ahead and dying. Again straight from the bill, the ordering "may range from an indication for full treatment to an indication to limit some or all &#8230; interventions."

Roughly 12 million illegals will be given free health care. Obama has said publicly that the plan would only apply to citizens. Sounds good, right? Well, with typical government misdirection, the bill makes it illegal to check to see if a person is a citizen! Now how do you think that is going to work? 
3. Your health care information will no longer be private. Your complete medical profile will be part of the national database used to determine the "ordering" of services described above.

Although not currently in the bill, taxpayer funded abortions may also be included as per Peter Orszag (Obama's budget director).

Obama claims that the bill will not add to the deficit. The Congressional Budget Office (if not neutral, a left-leaning body of Congress) has said it will cost $1.04 trillion.

These are just a few provisions which have leaked out. The bill is 1000 pages long and nobody has even read it yet (don't forget they passed the "stimulus" and "cap and trade" with not one member of Congress even reading the bill). With none of the provisions of the bill set to go into effect until 2013 what's the hurry you ask? Could it be they want to get it passed before we all find out what's really in it? Hmmmmmmmmm.

So to briefly sum up, they are going to end medical confidentiality, deny care to the elderly, give care to illegals for free, and support death at both ends of the life cycle. It's time to fight back folks. This is absolute insanity.


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## seegarfan (Oct 27, 2007)

cigary said:


> here is some info about the bill:
> 
> If this doesn't scare the $hit of us,,,,what will?
> 
> ...


thank you for speaking the truth about what this "healthcare bill" is really about. It amazes me that so many americans were duped by this man to vote him into power. I bet this is more "change" than they bargained for.

Mark


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## phatmax (Mar 18, 2009)

rborrell said:


> This is how health care started here in Canada. Luckily now instead of the ID card (that you have to take with at all times) we are having chips implanted under the skin (like a dog that is micro-chipped). That way everyone knows who you are and where you are at all times. When you have to go to the doctor or hospital, they just have to wand your chip and you're golden. There was talk of doing a tattoo with a bar-code on the arm, but someone in the party (... oh, I mean committee) said "what happens if their arm got cut off in an accident, we would not know who it is". A valid point really. So instead of multiple bar code tattoos (like on you car where they barcode the doors, hood, trunk, etc.) they decided to do the micro-chip thing.
> 
> Once the plan is fully implemented, you will be able to log in to a web site and look up the whereabouts of someone by their microchip ID. This will be great if you suspect that your spouse is cheating on you because it will use a GPS locator system to pinpoint where they are.
> 
> ...


Are you serious that Canada is thinking of Chipping??


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## Stinkdyr (Jun 19, 2009)

I yearn to see AK or TX secede and get the Tea Party ball rolling. That might send a message that the illiberal lefties can't ignore.



nativetexan_1 said:


> The whole health care debate is strange. The authority to pay for or even manage health care is NOT in the Constitution. It is a state responsibility, and the states have chosen not to try to provide health care (except for unconstitutional federally funded programs).
> 
> The question should not be "whether" but "under what authority".


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## Fro (Jul 13, 2009)

Cigary said:


> Here is some info about the bill:
> 
> If this doesn't scare the $hit of us,,,,what will?
> 
> ...


Thank you for posting this and well said!

If you don't mind I'd like to re-post this elsewhere, I'll wait to hear back from you though.


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## CIGARMAN41360 (Jul 22, 2009)

The health care package is just the start. Just another way of dipping into everyone's pockets with "govt run" programs. This will create more debt and problems that anyone can imagine. Talk to anybody in a country that has a govt run program and they will tell you how much they hate it. It doesnt work anywhere else and it wont work here


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## Blackcat (Aug 18, 2009)

Stinkdyr said:


> I yearn to see AK or TX secede and get the Tea Party ball rolling. That might send a message that the illiberal lefties can't ignore.


As an Alaskan, I have a plan...

The "Plan" - We divide Alaska in half, East and West Alaska. Texas becomes the third largest state in the Union. Then we secede from the Union. Now we have the three largest states in the Union seceding.


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## Jazzmunkee (Jul 3, 2008)

Your post def got me thinking. I know the bill's extremely long and probably really hard to read, but I'm college educated. Why don't I at least pick out a few of the important topics and do my own research? So anyway I finally found a post of the actual draft of the bill here.... http://docs.house.gov/edlabor/AAHCA-BillText-071409.pdf

I looked myself. I encourage all of you to read it too. You can search by page. Some of those pages you mentioned were cause for concern, but some were dramatized and/or untrue. Let me make it known that I'm *NOT* a suporter of this bill, just want you to read it for yourselves. With a little research you can get at least SOME of the facts, but this crap is so confusing that I don't think it will ever totally be clear.

Just one example...

5. Pg 50: Health insurance provided to all NON-CITIZENS including ILLEGALS ? 
*No mention of illegals only Medicaid eligible individuals. Illegals are not eligible for Medicaid or Medicare without proving citizenship. Currently, illegals can get treated in an emergency room if it's an emergency though. I'm sure we pay for that, but that's unavoidable*


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## Hermit (Aug 5, 2008)

Jazzmunkee said:


> Just one example...
> 
> 5. Pg 50: Health insurance provided to all NON-CITIZENS including ILLEGALS ?
> *No mention of illegals only Medicaid eligible individuals. Illegals are not eligible for Medicaid or Medicare without proving citizenship. Currently, illegals can get treated in an emergency room if it's an emergency though. I'm sure we pay for that, but that's unavoidable*


You're forgetting that *amnesty* is big on this administration's agenda.
The "illegals" will soon be registered Democrats.


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## Blackcat (Aug 18, 2009)

Is it just me or is this "Health Care" bill kinda making me sick.....cruel irony


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## zeavran1 (Aug 18, 2009)

Government can't run anything. The very system of electing a politician encourages them to tap into money from programs for their voters that were never intended in the first place. How much money comes from social security that is used for alot of things besides social security. They can't even run a simple cash for clunkers program. They have put car dealers out of business because they haven't been paid yet. How will doctors feel when they don't get paid. Free market always works.


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## Blackcat (Aug 18, 2009)

A lady asked Benjamin Franklin right after signing the Constitution "Sir, what have you given us?" He replied " A Republic, if you can keep it"

I feel it slipping away very, very fast.

If people fear the government you have Tyranny. If the government fears the people you have Liberty. I forget who said it


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## BigBenny (Mar 27, 2010)

I was actually going to post that quote by Ben Franklin in another thread (but it was closed), Blackcat. It's a good one. And we've lost our republic. That's the main reason I opposed the Universal Health Care bill. The moment a government takes control of something as important as health care, all they have to do is threaten to take it away and they get whatever they want.

That, my friends, is not a republic. Each new bill being passed makes it more and more difficult to take our rights back -- even electing new officials won't stop it now. The masses are easily deceived by propaganda and the government and anti-liberty lobbies are very, very adept at manipulating them. 

One more thing Obama wants to do (not related to Tobacco) is to make U.S taxes become permanent, even if you ex-patriate. For instance, if you moved to Canada, you would then have to pay Canadian taxes AND U.S. taxes.

I weeped the day he was elected because I knew this was going to happen. Tobacco is just the tip of the iceberg


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## smelvis (Sep 7, 2009)

Rubix^3 said:


> All of a sudden, those folks who build compounds out in the middle of nowhere, stockpiling food etc... are starting to not look so crazy.


I have believed in tin foil hats for years, I really didn't think I would see it in my lifetime, had cabin cases of 223's MRE's ect... We sold it dammit,


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## BigBenny (Mar 27, 2010)

I think everyone should water the 5 part series by ST0PandL00k on youtube. It talks about individualism vs collectivism (UHC being the former)


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## tobacmon (May 17, 2007)

Cigary said:


> Here is some info about the bill:
> 
> If this doesn't scare the $hit of us,,,,what will?
> 
> ...


*How can this benefit anyone other than the Government????*


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## tobacmon (May 17, 2007)

CIGARMAN41360 said:


> The health care package is just the start. * Just another way of dipping into everyone's pockets with "govt run" programs*. This will create more debt and problems that anyone can imagine. Talk to anybody in a country that has a govt run program and they will tell you how much they hate it. It doesnt work anywhere else and it wont work here


Good point and was thinking the same thing---More infringements on our RIGHTS!


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