# Well it's official, old pipes > new, expensive pipes...



## Vrbas (Sep 17, 2008)

I don't consider myself too picky of a smoker, but I'm always out for getting that "once in a lifetime smoke".... every time... or at least I always dream on that. Time and time again i've tried different blends in different pipes and well, gotten different experiences. While a certain pipe rarely ruins the blend for me, it can really make or break whether or not i look back and say "that was a great smoke."

I've been smoking FVF in a small Peterson Tankard for several weeks now and i just couldn't get that awesome taste i've come to know with FVF in the past from other pipes. I've also tried it in a mid-range Savinelli with the same results. But just yesterday, i loaded up an old Medico estate that has to be at least 40+ years old. The sucker has a loose stem and when i blow through the pipe spital sprays, kinda gross. But boy it never lets me down in the taste department. I dunno what it is, but this $5 estate outsmokes my $50+ pipes.

Anyone else have similar experiences?

*EDIT*
Perhaps i should change the title, alas they won't let me. It should read "*old pipes > nice, expensive pipes*"


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## Mad Hatter (Apr 8, 2007)

Absolutely. Anyone who turns their nose up at a well used estate is only shorting their own experience IMO.


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## Mr.Lordi (May 20, 2007)

Diffrence between an estate and a new pipe? You don't have to waste your time breaking in an estate, someone else has all ready done it for ya.


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## SmoknTaz (Jun 18, 2008)

Good to hear cause I just won a few estates, damn ebay. I have to stop looking!


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## commonsenseman (Apr 18, 2008)

I love my estate pipes. They're nice because I'm less worried about keeping them perfect, so I can think about other things......like smoking.


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## blueeyedbum (Nov 9, 2008)

I only own estate pipes at this time. A couple of dozen including Stanwells, Chacoms, Savinellis, Peterson, Ehrlichs, Royal Danishes, and several no names. I enjoy all of them. Can't compare how they smoke to a new pipe as I have not yet smoked one. Patiently waiting for the Puff pipe for my first new pipe experience.


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## nate560 (Nov 13, 2008)

I have a old Brigham apple or prince and it smokes flakes great. When im really looking for a special bowl to just sit and relax I will grab a good VA and the Brigham and just relax. Great pipe.


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## Vrbas (Sep 17, 2008)

Mr.Lordi said:


> Diffrence between an estate and a new pipe? You don't have to waste your time breaking in an estate, someone else has all ready done it for ya.


That's a good point. However, i feel like i've done plenty to break in my "nice pipes", and yet they still disappoint me, at least in comparison to raggidy ol' dust pipes.


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## Commander Quan (May 6, 2003)

I am still looking for some estates that I feel I can recondition and bring back to their former glory. I just haven't found any that I feel I can cut my teeth on yet. I'm hesitant to pick up something on the bay for fear of getting something completely unusable.


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## Alpedhuez55 (Dec 16, 2005)

Two of my best smokers are a pair of NOS no name briars that I bought for $10 each. One is a little bent bull dog the other a chubby author. THey are both fantastic smokers. Maybe they had about 20 years to dry out in a drawer at a Tobaconist. Or most likely, they are just well broken in with a thin but even cake. I have gotten OK at breaking them in now. It just takes a little patience and a packet of either Carter Hall or Price Albert.

I have not had the same luck with some estates. I had nice looking Estate Stanwell, Jobey and Charatan Pipes which just smoked too hot. I did end up selling all of them.


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## Alpedhuez55 (Dec 16, 2005)

Commander Quan said:


> I am still looking for some estates that I feel I can recondition and bring back to their former glory. I just haven't found any that I feel I can cut my teeth on yet. I'm hesitant to pick up something on the bay for fear of getting something completely unusable.


You can try antique malls. THe pricing is either reasonable because they do not know what they have or they are trying to get Pipe Shop money for a peice of junk pipe with a cracked bowl and a bitten through bit. But you should not have a problem finding some smoking grade Graybows, Kaywoodies or Medicos at a decent sized antique shop in the $4-6 range. And you can practice fixing them up before you spend real money on estate pipe that needs a restoration.


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## dmkerr (Oct 27, 2008)

There are numerous tangible reasons why one pipe smokes better than another (proper drilling, old wood, proper curing, etc). There are probably numerous intangible reasons as well.

There also seems to be little if any rhyme or reason as to why, unless there's a glaring fault. I have old pipes that smoke great and have had old pipes that didn't. Same with new pipes. Vrbas, to your question, I currently own a no-name brandy shaped Danish pipe that I bought from Frenchy for $30 that outsmokes an old Charatan Special I used to own, said Charatan which would command about $150-175 on the used market today.


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## Mister Moo (Sep 8, 2005)

It's all a mystery. Luck of the draw. No rules here.


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## Commander Quan (May 6, 2003)

Alpedhuez55 said:


> You can try antique malls. THe pricing is either reasonable because they do not know what they have or they are trying to get Pipe Shop money for a peice of junk pipe with a cracked bowl and a bitten through bit. But you should not have a problem finding some smoking grade Graybows, Kaywoodies or Medicos at a decent sized antique shop in the $4-6 range. And you can practice fixing them up before you spend real money on estate pipe that needs a restoration.


I've been looking. I already had to buy a piece of junk pipe with a cracked bowl and a chunk taken out of the stem because someone at the antique mall thought they should pairl it with the pipe rest that I wanted. I only paid $5 for it, and the rest was worth more than $5 to me so I just threw the pipe away. But so far everything I've found has been junk, except the meerschaum that I almost doped on the floor when the guy told me he wanted $225 for it. :doh:


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## MarkC (Jul 4, 2009)

I guess one's impression of estate pipes lies basically in the experience. I've bought six used pipes (I hate that misleading term "estate") on eBay. One has been decent, the rest I rarely touch anymore. So in my experience, I'll take a new Stanwell over a used eBay pipe any day. I now have 22 pipes, and still haven't filled my 9 pipe rack with decent pipes, but I've had a lot better luck with new pipes than used. Three Stanwells and two Missouri Meerschaums, the Dr. Grabow I started with, along with the one decent smoker from eBay.


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## Coyotero (Mar 17, 2010)

A friend of mine has a collection of truly antique pipes.

Penultimate among them is a 100+ year old Finnish pipe. One of the old style ones with a massive, tall wooden bowl with a silver cover, 18 inch cherry stem, a flexible leather portion, and a curved bone bit. He says it's his favorite, smokes better than any pipe he's got.


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## Vrbas (Sep 17, 2008)

You wonder how much of it can be chalked up to the nostalgia your brains tries to interpret it as... I mean, there's just something about an old fashioned "antique" pipe that makes you WANT to believe it smokes better than the newer, "better" made pipes of today.

So... is it a jedi mind-trick? I ponder.


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## stoked (Nov 30, 2009)

I've got about 30 pipes in my collection so far and 75% are estates. Most are 40-50 yrs old. Several were never used, or not enough to form a cake yet - these are the best smokers. I believe it is the aging of the briar that has made the difference. Some of my estates that were caked that I reamed, salted, buffed and polished look and smoke great too, but the aged and lightly smoked or unsmoked ones are the best. So I think it is mostly about age and less about the fact that someone has broken them in for you.


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## Arctic Fire (Jan 17, 2010)

I just purchased my first "estate" pipe on ebay. Im excited to do the restoration and see how she smokes.


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## BrSpiritus (Apr 9, 2009)

I had an estate Dr Grabow Bulldog from the 1960's... $5.50 on Ebay and it just would make anything with Perique sing to heaven. Unfortunately the baggage handlers on the way back to the Philippines saw fit to abuse my luggage and the stem was broken in 100 little pieces. So much for that pipe, I'm on the lookout for another though. I also have a couple Kaywoodies that are a perfect marriage to straight burley or old codger blends, in this case I think Kaywoodies were just designed around smoking burley. My other estate pipes all belonged to my grandfather and include some Peterson's, 4 meers and GBD Canadian. Now I also have some new pipes as well. My bing's favorite is just the perfect match for Firedance Flake and I have a peterson aran and a brigham voyageur that I have well caked with English/oriental blends (latakia). My worst sin is I am not a 1...or 2... or 5 tobacco kind of guy. I keep a variety of tins on hand an smoke what strikes my fancy. I tried to be an "all day blend" guy last year and just couldn't make it work... unless I'm working in Alaska and in that case burley (PA) works well for me and definately an estate pipe so I don't have to shed a tear if the pipe gets damaged.

BrSpiritus


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## Rascal (Jan 29, 2010)

Wouldn't logic dictate that if an estate pipe has been well-used it was a great smoker new too?


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## Mister Moo (Sep 8, 2005)

Rascal said:


> Wouldn't logic dictate that if an estate pipe has been well-used it was a great smoker new too?


Hard to tell, sometimes. Hard to tell.








http://i42.tinypic.com/20k42et.jpg


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## dmkerr (Oct 27, 2008)

Mister Moo said:


> Hard to tell, sometimes. Hard to tell.


What sucks about that pic is that I see some nice pipes in there... a bunch of Sasieni 4-dots, a Charatan (probably a Special grade), what appears to be a GBD New Era, the silver banded pipe which looks like it could be a Comoy made by Henri Comoy himself... those pipes weren't cheap when they were new and they'd sell for a pretty penny now if they were in decent shape.


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## Rascal (Jan 29, 2010)

In my own collection it is pretty easy to determine which pipes are my favorites. If they end up on ebay in 40 or 50 years is there something quantifiable that says they will be better than they are now?

Is there any proof that says that once briar is formed into a pipe and used that even continues to age in a beneficial way?


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## dmkerr (Oct 27, 2008)

Rascal said:


> Is there any proof that says that once briar is formed into a pipe and used that even continues to age in a beneficial way?


No "proof" that I know of. But wood seasons as it ages. When I compare a vintage 1928 Martin acoustic guitar to a new one, the sound is worlds different. I suspect those in the know would say the same about Stradivarious or Guarneri violins over newer models, or even over models less than 100 years old.

My not-so-learned opinion is that any decent pipe will smoke mellower (for whatever that word is worth!) in 40 or 50 years as the wood seasons and if the pipe is well cared for.


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## Rascal (Jan 29, 2010)

An instrument is a good example of wood aging but are the properties that lend themselves to an instrument lead to an improvement of a pipe? What about the regular heating and cooling of the briar does that help or hurt aging?

I am not trying to argue the point I am just curious whether it is age or if you are picking up one of the previous owner's favorite pipes and most other things are equal.


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## dmkerr (Oct 27, 2008)

Rascal said:


> An instrument is a good example of wood aging but are the properties that lend themselves to an instrument lead to an improvement of a pipe? What about the regular heating and cooling of the briar does that help or hurt aging?
> 
> I am not trying to argue the point I am just curious whether it is age or if you are picking up one of the previous owner's favorite pipes and most other things are equal.


If I understand your question correctly, my opinion is that the aging of wood alone accomplishes some of the seasoning but it's the fact that the pipe is being smoked over a long period of time that causes most of the seasoning (so it helps the aging). The analogy to a musical instrument may not have been the best one. I know of some Strad violins that are museum pieces and rarely get played but when they are, they sound incredible.


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## MarkC (Jul 4, 2009)

Yeah, but Strads were considered something special even when they were being made, not just after aging.


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## juni (Oct 16, 2009)

If I have my facts right then Strads were made from a very special kind of wood. The winters were tough and it gave the wood used some very special qualities not found since. I wonder what pipes made of briar grown in the same era might be like.


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## dmkerr (Oct 27, 2008)

MarkC said:


> Yeah, but Strads were considered something special even when they were being made, not just after aging.


You mean like Beckers, Castellos, Chonowitches, Ivarssons, Bo Nordhs, etc etc???


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## Rascal (Jan 29, 2010)

dmkerr said:


> If I understand your question correctly, my opinion is that the aging of wood alone accomplishes some of the seasoning but it's the fact that the pipe is being smoked over a long period of time that causes most of the seasoning (so it helps the aging). The analogy to a musical instrument may not have been the best one. I know of some Strad violins that are museum pieces and rarely get played but when they are, they sound incredible.


Is there any kind of chemical analysis that has been done to show how extensive seasoning/aging can improve the pipe? Most of mine are over 15 years old now but for me the changes would be too subtle or could be attributed to changes in preferences.


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## dmkerr (Oct 27, 2008)

Rascal said:


> Is there any kind of chemical analysis that has been done to show how extensive seasoning/aging can improve the pipe? Most of mine are over 15 years old now but for me the changes would be too subtle or could be attributed to changes in preferences.


Not to my knowledge.


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## David M (Mar 11, 2009)

A popular pipe author recently wrote that there was an idea of a pipe having something akin to 10,000 smokes available to it. After that amount, the briar has 'soaked up' so much tobacco juice inside, that it no longer is able to produce a good smoke because the briar has basically become a sponge, full of tobacco juice and that quality now eliminates that pure smoke. I guess some additional curing of briar would mellow it out. It would be interesting to see how a very used pipe has actually taken all that juice. We would need to cut a pipe in half and show a cross section of the bowl and presumably we would see a large stain below the bottom of the bowl.

***

I too agree with the idea that older well-cured briar has a better chance of smoking better than new briar. Several caveats in place though, such as the briar used, the number of smokes it had and the 50 other reasons that I do not even know about. It is a lottery most of the time. If you buy a 70-year old Dunhill however or most any pipe that was used with pre-World War II briar, chances are you will have a winner no matter what. The way they aged and processed their briar somehow made them better. Today that process is long gone which is why a lot of collectors don't even refer to today's Dunhill's as 'real'.
<o></o>
My first hand experience with old wood came with a 1930's Comoys bought for $45. I was just **STUNNED** at how different the smoke was. As I am still trying to figure out what the difference is, I basically fall on the idea that what we are getting with the well-cured briar is access to the actual pure taste of the tobacco we are smoking. Whenever we smoke tobacco in newer pipes, the taste we get is a combination of the tobacco and the wood we are smoking it in. That combination eliminates the pure tasting experience to occur since we are smoking much more than the tobacco.
<o></o>
It's not just any old briar though, that is clear. If you however have an appetite for lotteries and the game of chance, it's likely that you will find a great smoke quicker than in a new one if you keep buying estates.
<o></o>
I am about to embark on another old pipe, one from 1920's. I really hope that it's a good smoke. You never know until you light it up. It's amazing to see how much personal preference, personal opinions, personal bias, peer pressure bias and all of the other reasons why we are unable to experience the actual essence of something affect the decision of a good smoke or not. I like you have heard of many stories of the 'bad pipe'. No matter who smoked it, they had a bad experience and then, suddenly in the hands of this person X, the pipe smokes great to them. The personal bias / opinion that none of us are likely to get rid of will always be one of the greatest factors that determine how we perceive a smoke.


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## Alpedhuez55 (Dec 16, 2005)

David M said:


> A popular pipe author recently wrote that there was an idea of a pipe having something akin to 10,000 smokes available to it. After that amount, the briar has 'soaked up' so much tobacco juice inside, that it no longer is able to produce a good smoke because the briar has basically become a sponge, full of tobacco juice and that quality now eliminates that pure smoke. I guess some additional curing of briar would mellow it out. It would be interesting to see how a very used pipe has actually taken all that juice. We would need to cut a pipe in half and show a cross section of the bowl and presumably we would see a large stain below the bottom of the bowl.


Fist off, sponges dry. You leave a soaking wet sponge out for a few days and eventually all the water will evaporate. I am sure it is the same process with a pipe. Plus the cake protects the briar. Consider it to be like insullation is to a house. Yes there are some changes in the briar. I think most of us have seen pipes get darker on us whether it be from the heat, tobacco juices or oils from your hands.

Sure you can do a lot of damage to a pipe. You can turn a good pipe into a bad smoker. I think it is most risky during the first several smokes when you do not have the cake layer built up. But I just do not think you can compare a Pipe to a sponge.


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## Rascal (Jan 29, 2010)

David M said:


> A popular pipe author recently wrote that there was an idea of a pipe having something akin to 10,000 smokes available to it. After that amount, the briar has 'soaked up' so much tobacco juice inside, that it no longer is able to produce a good smoke because the briar has basically become a sponge, full of tobacco juice and that quality now eliminates that pure smoke. I guess some additional curing of briar would mellow it out. It would be interesting to see how a very used pipe has actually taken all that juice. We would need to cut a pipe in half and show a cross section of the bowl and presumably we would see a large stain below the bottom of the bowl.


I have heard this idea repeated over the years and I can tell you with all certainity that it does not take nearly 10k smokes to ruin a pipe in this fashion.

As I might have mentioned a number of times I didn't have the wisdom of the interwebs when I first started and I was smoking my pipe for a good 3 months before I told my father of my interest.

I did pretty much everything wrong. From not letting it dry between sessions, smoking it too hot, and smoking tobacco that was too moist.

I don't know when it hit saturation point but my first pipe is forever ruined and it happened in under 3 months. I am 100 percent confident that if I cut it open you would see it stained all the way through and the wood is not like a sponge but it is softer than it was originally. Experiences like mine probably fuel this notion of an expiration date.

However, I find that unless you are a complete moron like I was originally a briar can take quite a bit of abuse. New briar owners do not be alarmed. Build your cake and everything should be fine.


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## MarkC (Jul 4, 2009)

Alpedhuez55 said:


> Fist off, sponges dry. You leave a soaking wet sponge out for a few days and eventually all the water will evaporate. I am sure it is the same process with a pipe. Plus the cake protects the briar.


Yeah, but you don't soak a pipe with water, you soak it with tar. Soak a sponge with tobacco tar and see how it evaporates...


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## Jack Straw (Nov 20, 2008)

But then you soak it in alcohol and let salt/cotton wick away the tobacco tar/oils...at least from the parts of the briar near the bowl. Right?


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## MarkC (Jul 4, 2009)

Well, I haven't personally; I haven't had to go that far yet. I see your point, though.


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## RJpuffs (Jan 27, 2008)

Jack Straw said:


> But then you soak it in alcohol and let salt/cotton wick away the tobacco tar/oils...at least from the parts of the briar near the bowl. Right?


As I see it, there are two possibilities with a "screwed up" pipe. Well three, the last one is that the pipe was badly made to begin with and will always be a bad smoker.

First, all pipes, with use, will absorb tars/odors/moisture. Some of this evaporates, some can be removed as you mentioned with a rock salt or cotton ball and alchy treatment.

The second possibility (3,1,2 I'm good at math) is that the bad smoking technique during the pipe's formative years has reduced the heel into mush. A wet smoke tends to collect down at the bottom (heel). Repeated abuse in this area will make the briar down there soggy and it will start to fall apart - think of filling a cardboard box with water. Eventually the bottom will fall out (in the cardboard box), with a pipe the fibers of the wood will start to disintegrate and you end up with an unfixable problem.


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## Alpedhuez55 (Dec 16, 2005)

MarkC said:


> Yeah, but you don't soak a pipe with water, you soak it with tar. Soak a sponge with tobacco tar and see how it evaporates...


And you put a layer of dried tar around the sponge and it will have trouble asorbing more tar.

I am not saying you cannot ruin a pipe or have a sour smoker. I have had that issue with some estate pipes with perry good manufacturers. But it is usually about how well the previous owner treated them as opposed to how much they have been smoked. Would you rather own a pipe that has been smoked 1000 times by someone who meticulously cleaned and maintained them, or one that has been smoked 20 times by someone who did not know what they were doing.

I am just saying with a minimum level of care, absorbing minute amounts or tar juices ect, it will not be an issue. I think it is more about caring for your pipes than anything else. I do not think pipes have an experation date or finite number of smokes in them. THe natural expansion and contraction of a hot and cold pipe will put far more stress on it than absorbed juices.


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## David M (Mar 11, 2009)

Rascal said:


> I did pretty much everything wrong. From not letting it dry between sessions, smoking it too hot, and smoking tobacco that was too moist.
> 
> I don't know when it hit saturation point but my first pipe is forever ruined and it happened in under 3 months. I am 100 percent confident that if I cut it open you would see it stained all the way through and the wood is not like a sponge but it is softer than it was originally. Experiences like mine probably fuel this notion of an expiration date.
> 
> However, I find that unless you are a complete moron like I was originally a briar can take quite a bit of abuse. New briar owners do not be alarmed. Build your cake and everything should be fine.


I did the same thing as you when I first started. Kept smoking the heck out of my first pipe and just smoked and smoked and smoked. A local pipe guy hit me over the head when he found out about the number of smokes I was giving the pipe without any rest. I learned.

Pipe is definitely okay though.

Like you said, just need to use it properly.

Sorry your pipe got blooey.


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## Rascal (Jan 29, 2010)

David M said:


> I did the same thing as you when I first started. Kept smoking the heck out of my first pipe and just smoked and smoked and smoked. A local pipe guy hit me over the head when he found out about the number of smokes I was giving the pipe without any rest. I learned.
> 
> Pipe is definitely okay though.
> 
> ...


If your pipe is okay then my title of worst beginner ever is safe. I was so stupid the first few times I got tongue bite I didn't even put it together with smoking I thought something else had caused it.

About the pipe it could be that I just abused mine more or that yours was better quality. In any event, the wood is ruined and there is no bringing it back. I have kept it all these years though and I clean it and maintenance it a few times a year. Don't ask me why. I am a sentimental fool I suppose.


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