# The Thorn in the Side



## Stogie (Feb 13, 2007)

Hey guys I wanted to ask a question and talk a bit about my view on the cigar legislation. I totally understand that writing to politicians voices our concerns to the right people but I have a question.

*Do you think more could be done if a true grass roots effort of true cigar smokers gathering in public was done?* I know it is hard to get people organized to even make it to cigar events but *would getting permission meaning the correct permits and gathering in some sort of public form get more politicians attention?* Would we be looked upon as trouble makers?

*My Thought:* Now that we will have the largest community we will also have the largest amount of hard core smokers. I believe that we will have a very strong voice as long as we can organize it. Personally I have always felt that I wanted to pursue this sort of action in being a *Thorn in the Side* of the people making the smoking bans and if we can get organized enough I believe it could do some good.

Please do not take it that I want to march on every city, instead I want to gather with others in a effort that maximizes our energy. Then take a bit of action to get our voice heard.

p.s. If my wife reads this I promise not to get into too much trouble.


----------



## parris001 (Mar 29, 2008)

Stogie said:


> Hey guys I wanted to ask a question and talk a bit about my view on the cigar legislation. I totally understand that writing to politicians voices our concerns to the right people but I have a question.
> 
> *Do you think more could be done if a true grass roots effort of true cigar smokers gathering in public was done?* I know it is hard to get people organized to even make it to cigar events but *would getting permission meaning the correct permits and gathering in some sort of public form get more politicians attention?* Would we be looked upon as trouble makers?
> 
> ...


Yes, if you do this right you will get your point across. I'll give you a bit of research to do (because I don't right off hand know where any of this info might exist). In my state of Tennessee they decided back in 2000 (might be off by a year) to pass a state income tax. They legislators thought they would pass it without any problem, BUT, the local political talk show hosts told us all to get our butts down to legislative plaza and circle the block and blow our horns. It was a simple horn honking protest. We basically shut down the state capitol. They couldn't get anything done for all the commotion and protest outside and they didn't dare use police force to control the crowd because of the media presence.

They didn't learn their lesson very well and tried to pass it again the next 2 consecutive years but we showed up and protested again. It never passed and it hasn't been brought up again. It was all a peaceful protest where we simply stood up for our rights and voiced our opinions. And we won. I wish everyone here could relish such a victory.


----------



## Cigary (Oct 19, 2007)

parris001 said:


> Yes, if you do this right you will get your point across. I'll give you a bit of research to do (because I don't right off hand know where any of this info might exist). In my state of Tennessee they decided back in 2000 (might be off by a year) to pass a state income tax. They legislators thought they would pass it without any problem, BUT, the local political talk show hosts told us all to get our butts down to legislative plaza and circle the block and blow our horns. It was a simple horn honking protest. We basically shut down the state capitol. They couldn't get anything done for all the commotion and protest outside and they didn't dare use police force to control the crowd because of the media presence.
> 
> They didn't learn their lesson very well and tried to pass it again the next 2 consecutive years but we showed up and protested again. It never passed and it hasn't been brought up again. It was all a peaceful protest where we simply stood up for our rights and voiced our opinions. And we won. I wish everyone here could relish such a victory.


I think we need to be very careful in regards to doing something of this sort. Granted, we all have the right to protest in those cases where there is a fundamental right to protest something we believe in. To protest something like income taxes is something most people are on board with to protest. When it comes to something like protesting about the cigar legislation I dont think that this type of protest will work because it would bring more harm than good. While a peaceful protest is key we would have to ensure that our means justify the ends because if we get this wrong, it would set our efforts back tremendously.

The sentiments of cigar smoking are usually coupled with cigarette smoking and that is the problem when it comes to advocating our position. We are different than the cigarette community and we need to distance ourselves from that group or else we will be lumped into the "guilt by association" anti smoking lobby. Our hobby is something that enables us to be more social as we interract with others at "herfs" and we are men and women who are more socially inclined to be more pleasant, jovial, and also more open minded because we are always discussing social agendas, politics, etc etc. We need to be viewed as people who are the social norm rather than what the lobbyists would like to present to the general public. They seek to present us as snobs, indifferent and disrespectful individuals who like to cause problems with our cigars and the smoke. Perception is reality to the outsiders of this hobby and when they see or smell cigars, guess what they are thinking? We all know what that is and we see it almost on a daily basis and we need to present ourselves not as the enemy but as a viable and decent sect of the population who engage in an activity that we enjoy. Win over our enemies and we win a foothold in this argument of cigar smokers vs non cigar smokers. We should never ever engage our critics with health issues over cigars but rather employ a different strategy of choice for everyone. There is a choice over consumption of alcohol, there is a choice of skydiving, of what some would call dangerous hobbys. The call for debate on cigars and health issues is a debate we will never win but rather let's debate on a hobby that we control the outcome. Obviously, if we participate in something that continually becomes more and more dangerous then we are people who need to decide for ourselves how we want to live our lives. The alcohol industry has almost perfected the art of being able to control the market perception of beer, wine, spirits in that it is about personal accountability and the choices we make and they "inspire" us to be responsible drinkers. Wow, how novel is that approach? Why not take some pages out of their playbook and use them to our advantage? As they say, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery and we would be well served to watch how they market their product. How many of us see cigars and spirits in magazine ads and then see cigars in a different light? Perception is reality and that is what needs to be advertised to the public.

I'm sure there are other ideas on how to generate positive ideas in regards to cigars but let's be honest and serious. We cannot take an approach that will villify or condemn us in the public setting. We should not become adversarys but rather people who are willing to compromise in a hobby that we enjoy and will work with those who do not appreciate our ideas.

I am anxious to see others ideas on how we can constructively get this going before it is too late. The time is now to stop the anti cigar lobby and to educate the general population of just what exactly cigar smoking is all about.:ss


----------



## parris001 (Mar 29, 2008)

Cigary said:


> I think we need to be very careful in regards to doing something of this sort. Granted, we all have the right to protest in those cases where there is a fundamental right to protest something we believe in. To protest something like income taxes is something most people are on board with to protest. When it comes to something like protesting about the cigar legislation I dont think that this type of protest will work because it would bring more harm than good. While a peaceful protest is key we would have to ensure that our means justify the ends because if we get this wrong, it would set our efforts back tremendously.
> 
> The sentiments of cigar smoking are usually coupled with cigarette smoking and that is the problem when it comes to advocating our position. *We are different than the cigarette community and we need to distance ourselves from that group* or else we will be lumped into the "guilt by association" anti smoking lobby. Our hobby is something that enables us to be more social as we interract with others at "herfs" and we are men and women who are more socially inclined to be more pleasant, jovial, and also more open minded because we are always discussing social agendas, politics, etc etc. * We need to be viewed as people who are the social norm *rather than what the lobbyists would like to present to the general public. They seek to present us as snobs, indifferent and disrespectful individuals who like to cause problems with our cigars and the smoke. Perception is reality to the outsiders of this hobby and when they see or smell cigars, guess what they are thinking? We all know what that is and we see it almost on a daily basis and we need to present ourselves not as the enemy but as a viable and decent sect of the population who engage in an activity that we enjoy. Win over our enemies and we win a foothold in this argument of cigar smokers vs non cigar smokers. We should never ever engage our critics with health issues over cigars but rather employ a different strategy of choice for everyone. There is a choice over consumption of alcohol, there is a choice of skydiving, of what some would call dangerous hobbys. The call for debate on cigars and health issues is a debate we will never win but rather let's debate on a hobby that we control the outcome. Obviously, if we participate in something that continually becomes more and more dangerous then we are people who need to decide for ourselves how we want to live our lives. *The alcohol industry has almost perfected the art of being able to control the market perception* of beer, wine, spirits in that it is about personal accountability and the choices we make and they "inspire" us to be responsible drinkers. Wow, how novel is that approach? Why not take some pages out of their playbook and use them to our advantage? As they say, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery and we would be well served to watch how they market their product. How many of us see cigars and spirits in magazine ads and then see cigars in a different light? Perception is reality and that is what needs to be advertised to the public.
> 
> ...


I come from the pipe side of being a BOTL and rarely make an appearance over here on the cigar side. I come down on the side of PRO-TOBACCO. I draw no distinctions as to how our weed is used. Be it pipe, cigar, snuff, chew, cigarette........ you name it and I'll support it. As long as we are dealing with a product that is legal to grow, process, and sell and I don't give a rip what the end result is (although I personally think cigarettes appeal to the lowest common denominator of all tobacco users). As long as the feds choose to tax the friggin' crap out of my vice of choice I want the freedom to use it anywhere and everywhere I want to. Because here's the old catch 22 in trying to legislate tobacco bans: where will it stop? The feds don't want to see it completely banned anymore than we do because of the tax revenue it generates. If tobacco was to completely disappear tomorrow the feds would panic because of the huge income loss.

Draw some parallels between the 18th amendment and today's tobacco controls. The only way for the nanny state to pander to the anti-smoke crowd is to attempt to control our actions. And you know the nanny state doesn't do anything where they don't eventually end up swinging all the way to the direction of the whining minority. So, just as they ended up bowing to the Women's Christian Temperance Movement back in the prohibition days, the logical conclusion is they have to ban tobacco all together. My challenge to them is, try it! My family got very rich during prohibition. We grew corn in the Appalachians back then, and we've been growing tobacco ever since then. This is a country founded on individual freedoms. The feds, quite frankly, can kiss my ass.

Here's the way this needs to play out folks. Stand up for what you believe in. If someone is trying to infringe on your personal freedoms then stomp them into the dirt and teach them a lesson. Your tobacco addiction that offends them will be their Big Mac obsession that is on the chopping block somewhere in the near future. Live and let live. And protest all you want. It's our damn country. Fight for what you want and don't let politicians push you around.


----------



## Cigary (Oct 19, 2007)

parris001 said:


> I come from the pipe side of being a BOTL and rarely make an appearance over here on the cigar side. I come down on the side of PRO-TOBACCO. I draw no distinctions as to how our weed is used. Be it pipe, cigar, snuff, chew, cigarette........ you name it and I'll support it. As long as we are dealing with a product that is legal to grow, process, and sell and I don't give a rip what the end result is (although I personally think cigarettes appeal to the lowest common denominator of all tobacco users). As long as the feds choose to tax the friggin' crap out of my vice of choice I want the freedom to use it anywhere and everywhere I want to. Because here's the old catch 22 in trying to legislate tobacco bans: where will it stop? The feds don't want to see it completely banned anymore than we do because of the tax revenue it generates. If tobacco was to completely disappear tomorrow the feds would panic because of the huge income loss.
> 
> Draw some parallels between the 18th amendment and today's tobacco controls. The only way for the nanny state to pander to the anti-smoke crowd is to attempt to control our actions. And you know the nanny state doesn't do anything where they don't eventually end up swinging all the way to the direction of the whining minority. So, just as they ended up bowing to the Women's Christian Temperance Movement back in the prohibition days, the logical conclusion is they have to ban tobacco all together. My challenge to them is, try it! My family got very rich during prohibition. We grew corn in the Appalachians back then, and we've been growing tobacco ever since then. This is a country founded on individual freedoms. The feds, quite frankly, can kiss my ass.
> 
> Here's the way this needs to play out folks. Stand up for what you believe in. If someone is trying to infringe on your personal freedoms then stomp them into the dirt and teach them a lesson. Your tobacco addiction that offends them will be their Big Mac obsession that is on the chopping block somewhere in the near future. Live and let live. And protest all you want. It's our damn country. Fight for what you want and don't let politicians push you around.


I truly do empathize with how you feel and to have our individual rights being taken away is difficult at best to deal with. We aren't too far apart on what we want as much as we might disagree with how we go about protecting our rights. If we use a system of protest that actually falls into the hands of those who want to take our rights away then we have failed, period. We need to be smarter than the people who want to take those rights away from us and we need to protest in such a way that we are able to secure our rights not only today but in the future.

If we protest in such a way that presents a negative tone how does that win the war that we need to win? Winning a battle of wills with the opposition once in awhile with the wrong kind of protest will ultimately cost us the war because public opinion is the ultimate decider. People vote as to what affects them and when you take a militant stand for something you believe in it makes for good copy and news reports but it diminishes the reality of what you want. I know that in days past our history details certain types of protests in regards to what you posted and tobacco is an easy target because of health issues. Medical science will bury our argument everytime and to argue with them on this will certainly keep the snowball rolling downhill. I would employ a different strategy much like I posted and get their mindsets going in a different direction. We are adults who believe in our own destiny and quality of life and it's about our choice as to how to we want to live it as long as we don't harm anyone else with our lifestyle. How many lifestyles can you count out there where they have compromised others in order to live the life they want to? I can drink but nobody wants me to drive drunk. I want to skydive but I can't land somewhere in the city where it might harm someone else. I want to drive fast in my car but will use a track designed for people who want to drive their cars fast. I want to play my music really loud but I can't do that when my neighbor is right next door, so I use headphones. I want to smoke my pipe, cigar, cigarette in places where it won't offend others, i.e secondhand smoke. I would then go to B&M's or restaurants that offer this but it will take compromise and a give and take attitude. Our argument is no different than it is for anyone else who wants to partake in hobbys or vices where it won't harm anyone. I want to shoot my rifle and handguns but I need to go to a shooting range and not my backyard in the subdivision where I reside.

If we take the attitude of working things out we will get much farther down the road. As always, this is my 2 cents and we want the same thing at the end of the day.:2


----------



## Figo (May 21, 2008)

parris001 said:


> I come from the pipe side of being a BOTL and rarely make an appearance over here on the cigar side. I come down on the side of PRO-TOBACCO. I draw no distinctions as to how our weed is used. Be it pipe, cigar, snuff, chew, cigarette........ you name it and I'll support it. As long as we are dealing with a product that is legal to grow, process, and sell and I don't give a rip what the end result is (although I personally think cigarettes appeal to the lowest common denominator of all tobacco users). As long as the feds choose to tax the friggin' crap out of my vice of choice I want the freedom to use it anywhere and everywhere I want to. Because here's the old catch 22 in trying to legislate tobacco bans: where will it stop? The feds don't want to see it completely banned anymore than we do because of the tax revenue it generates. If tobacco was to completely disappear tomorrow the feds would panic because of the huge income loss.
> 
> Draw some parallels between the 18th amendment and today's tobacco controls. The only way for the nanny state to pander to the anti-smoke crowd is to attempt to control our actions. And you know the nanny state doesn't do anything where they don't eventually end up swinging all the way to the direction of the whining minority. So, just as they ended up bowing to the Women's Christian Temperance Movement back in the prohibition days, the logical conclusion is they have to ban tobacco all together. My challenge to them is, try it! My family got very rich during prohibition. We grew corn in the Appalachians back then, and we've been growing tobacco ever since then. This is a country founded on individual freedoms. The feds, quite frankly, can kiss my ass.
> 
> Here's the way this needs to play out folks. Stand up for what you believe in. If someone is trying to infringe on your personal freedoms then stomp them into the dirt and teach them a lesson. Your tobacco addiction that offends them will be their Big Mac obsession that is on the chopping block somewhere in the near future. Live and let live. And protest all you want. It's our damn country. Fight for what you want and don't let politicians push you around.


Well said!! :tu

We need to stop worrying about being "polictically correct" in this country and understand that the "nanny state" is not what our Constitution is about! It's about personal freedoms and the "right" to fail!

Thanks for the reminder Parris...


----------



## parris001 (Mar 29, 2008)

Cigary said:


> If we use a system of protest that actually falls into the hands of those who want to take our rights away then we have failed, period. We need to be smarter than the people who want to take those rights away from us and we need to protest in such a way that we are able to secure our rights not only today but in the future.
> 
> If we protest in such a way that presents a negative tone how does that win the war that we need to win?


First of all brother, we are on the same side. And we both know we're tired of seeing our rights trampled.

When I mentioned the protest we staged here in the state capitol of Tennessee, let me stress that it was PEACEFUL. It got tense at times, but all of us that were assembled to fight the tax behaved ourselves. The only violence came from instigators that were sent to cause an uproar.
http://www.tntaxrevolt.org/taxpics.htm Here's some pics.

I'm not looking to incite any civil unrest (although that's not a horrible idea :sb ) I just want the law makers and legislators to remember who hired them and who they work for. They all need reminding ever now and again.


----------



## Cigary (Oct 19, 2007)

parris001 said:


> First of all brother, we are on the same side. And we both know we're tired of seeing our rights trampled.
> 
> When I mentioned the protest we staged here in the state capitol of Tennessee, let me stress that it was PEACEFUL. It got tense at times, but all of us that were assembled to fight the tax behaved ourselves. The only violence came from instigators that were sent to cause an uproar.
> http://www.tntaxrevolt.org/taxpics.htm Here's some pics.
> ...


Understood and yes they need to be reminded who they work for. You probably wouldn't know it from my posts but I really have to remind myself not to go the other route when it comes to protesting about things I believe in. I fight myself to keep from being militantly minded and I can become very reactionary. Good thing cigars mellow me out! Carry on parris01.:tu


----------



## parris001 (Mar 29, 2008)

Sit down and pop in _The Patriot_. This flick always gets my patriotic blood flowing and makes me want to stand up for my rights. Should be required viewing a week out from the elections that are looming.........


----------



## Stogie (Feb 13, 2007)

parris001 said:


> Yes, if you do this right you will get your point across. I'll give you a bit of research to do (because I don't right off hand know where any of this info might exist). In my state of Tennessee they decided back in 2000 (might be off by a year) to pass a state income tax. They legislators thought they would pass it without any problem, BUT, the local political talk show hosts told us all to get our butts down to legislative plaza and circle the block and blow our horns. It was a simple horn honking protest. We basically shut down the state capitol. They couldn't get anything done for all the commotion and protest outside and they didn't dare use police force to control the crowd because of the media presence.
> 
> They didn't learn their lesson very well and tried to pass it again the next 2 consecutive years but we showed up and protested again. It never passed and it hasn't been brought up again. It was all a peaceful protest where we simply stood up for our rights and voiced our opinions. And we won. I wish everyone here could relish such a victory.


That is simply outstanding. Peacefull yet to the point. Thanks for the info.


----------



## Stogie (Feb 13, 2007)

Figo said:


> Well said!! :tu
> 
> We need to stop worrying about being "polictically correct" in this country and understand that the "nanny state" is not what our Constitution is about! It's about personal freedoms and the "right" to fail!
> 
> Thanks for the reminder Parris...


Personal freedoms is a great platform to stand on. :ss


----------



## Stogie (Feb 13, 2007)

This would need to be very thought out and we need more views from other members. We need to get the views and ideas from our own members of the community before we can even start to think further into this.


----------



## parris001 (Mar 29, 2008)

Stogie said:


> This would need to be very thought out and we need more views from other members. We need to get the views and ideas from our own members of the community before we can even start to think further into this.


You need to locate members of this forum and figure their relative proximity to their state capitol. I practically live in Nashville so I'd be a good candidate. Rally all the troops in a state and stage a protest. Focus on one state at a time, don't try to coordinate this to happen all at once. We'll just make our voice heard and take our victories one state at a time. But I'd advise having key members appointed in every viable state before we get the ball rolling so that each team can take a victory in the previous state team's success.

It's all very doable.


----------



## Cigary (Oct 19, 2007)

parris001 said:


> You need to locate members of this forum and figure their relative proximity to their state capitol. I practically live in Nashville so I'd be a good candidate. Rally all the troops in a state and stage a protest. Focus on one state at a time, don't try to coordinate this to happen all at once. We'll just make our voice heard and take our victories one state at a time. But I'd advise having key members appointed in every viable state before we get the ball rolling so that each team can take a victory in the previous state team's success.
> 
> It's all very doable.


Good points in that what happens in each state can be used as a blueprint to help the next state in it's protest. Having key people to address concerns is important both in pre planning and also when communicating our platform in the protest. If available then key members can help with their neighboring states to keep the flow going in the direction it needs to go,,,keeping things fluid. Rallying support is just as important so that when the word goes out we have as many people as we can get so that our agenda is being seen as well as understood.


----------



## Stogie (Feb 13, 2007)

parris001 said:


> You need to locate members of this forum and figure their relative proximity to their state capitol. I practically live in Nashville so I'd be a good candidate. Rally all the troops in a state and stage a protest. Focus on one state at a time, don't try to coordinate this to happen all at once. We'll just make our voice heard and take our victories one state at a time. But I'd advise having key members appointed in every viable state before we get the ball rolling so that each team can take a victory in the previous state team's success.
> 
> It's all very doable.


I agree this is very doable as long as we can get others excited about it as well.


----------



## Nurse_Maduro (Oct 23, 2008)

parris001 said:


> You need to locate members of this forum and figure their relative proximity to their state capitol. I practically live in Nashville so I'd be a good candidate. Rally all the troops in a state and stage a protest. Focus on one state at a time, don't try to coordinate this to happen all at once. We'll just make our voice heard and take our victories one state at a time. But I'd advise having key members appointed in every viable state before we get the ball rolling so that each team can take a victory in the previous state team's success.
> 
> It's all very doable.


I'm about 3 hours away from Albany, NY and I'd certainly be interested, depending on what tactic we take.


----------

