# Taxing cigar sites



## denarok

Democrats push for new Internet sales taxes | Politics and Law - CNET News

Was not sure where to post this since does not have to do directly with tobacco legislation but all internet retail.

I am guessing if this goes through we will then have to start paying taxes when we buy from places like CI and Famous and other sites?

Kind of stinks because online was the only place to get decent cigar prices.


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## ckay

I've been hearing that W2s will be applied to Internet tobacco sales.


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## thegoldenmackid

The chances of this happening, even now, are slim. However, states like New York (see Amazon v. New York), can change this much more effectively.


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## bfons303

denarok said:


> Was not sure where to post this since does not have to do directly with tobacco legislation but all internet retail.
> 
> I am guessing if this goes through we will then have to start paying taxes when we buy from places like CI and Famous and other sites?
> 
> Kind of stinks because online was the only place to get decent cigar prices.


Reason #2048 Im not a Dem


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## ghe-cl

I have no dog in this fight, but I can't help but think it is grossly unfair for retailers with a shop to have to compete against Internet operations that don't collect sales taxes and, in many cases, operate in Pa. and Fla. that have no cigar taxes. Couple that with the giant Internet operation CI and JR being owned by cigar manufacturers and, even though they also operate stores, and it is an uphill battle for retailers.


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## dyieldin

Enough with the damm taxes!! I am feed up with paying about 50% of my earnings for the stupid BS this government does. Someone mentioned a cigar vendor was talking about setting an offshore deal like the gambling sites, they would pay no taxes from there but the reciever would if the delivery was caught. I'm all for it.


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## Cigary

AT some point in time the Gov't is going to get its filthy hands into your cigar lives and will be hitting all of us with added taxes. Whether they hit the retailors or they hit us it's going to happen. This is one reason I buy as much as I do now because when it hits me directly hopefully I will have enough years saved up on what I have bought beforehand. I am sick and tired of being taxed on top of taxes I am already paying. I am paying taxes on my wages and then if I put my already taxed money into a financial vehicle I get taxed on it again. This was NEVER the plan to get taxed twice and sometimes 3 times on money you have already earned. This is frustrating to endure a Gov't that taxes you so many times and then takes your tax money and throws a trillion dollars to the industries that have bilked us out of most of our saved earnings in the first place.


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## soonersublime

bfons303 said:


> Reason #2048 Im not a Dem


You're only up to 2,048. I'm up to like 8 million. After the Bush tax cuts expire this year I will lose $8,000 of disposable income next year and my household income is FAR below the "I won't raise taxes on any household making less than $200,000" dude once lied about.


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## soonersublime

Cigary said:


> AT some point in time the Gov't is going to get its filthy hands into your cigar lives and will be hitting all of us with added taxes. Whether they hit the retailors or they hit us it's going to happen. This is one reason I buy as much as I do now because when it hits me directly hopefully I will have enough years saved up on what I have bought beforehand. I am sick and tired of being taxed on top of taxes I am already paying. I am paying taxes on my wages and then if I put my already taxed money into a financial vehicle I get taxed on it again. This was NEVER the plan to get taxed twice and sometimes 3 times on money you have already earned. This is frustrating to endure a Gov't that taxes you so many times and then takes your tax money and throws a trillion dollars to the industries that have bilked us out of most of our saved earnings in the first place.


If the taxes go up any higher on cigars then I will be taking a 401k loan out and building a humidor big enough to hold 30,000 cigars. No one will win at the devil site but me!!!:whoo:


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## bfons303

Check this out

Cigar Tax Rates

CO taxes "20% Manufacturers List Price". Ive been told by the BM's that it basically adds up to a 40% tax since MSRP isnt the same as retail. I support my local BM with a stick or 2 here and there but if it werent for the Internet cost, I would be Gar Free as I simply can;t afford the local prices.


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## Elwin

About 234 years ago, a war started over taxes like these.

"No taxation without representation"

Hell, I don't even like tea, but my cigars? That's worth fighting for!
Or at least making sure I never miss another vote at the polls...

_You can have my stogie when you pry it from my cold dead fingers!
Or when it turns hot and bitter. Probably the latter..._


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## thegoldenmackid

To some extent this would be like Arizona's immigration laws. It wouldn't be that much of a change to status quo laws, rather a blanket enforcement of the law. Most of us don't live in states that have no sales tax and as such are supposed to pay taxes on all internet sales after the purchase. Few retailers charge tax for all orders and retailers are only required to tax sales that occur in their own states. This new law isn't new and won't happen, not to say the states may not pull a Amazon.com v. New York. Washington State requires all taxes on internet cigar purchases for retailers in WA, I believe they are the only ones to do this.


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## tpharkman

Borrowing a cliche from Ebay, "Buy it Now" brothers and sisters.


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## smelvis

Depending on how long I live I could never buy again and not run out, Now the quality and tastes I am updating to needs another year so if they leave us alone that long F**k them.


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## TonyBrooklyn

Elwin said:


> About 234 years ago, a war started over taxes like these.
> 
> "No taxation without representation"
> 
> Hell, I don't even like tea, but my cigars? That's worth fighting for!
> Or at least making sure I never miss another vote at the polls...
> 
> _You can have my stogie when you pry it from my cold dead fingers!
> Or when it turns hot and bitter. Probably the latter..._


Well said Brother well said. Watch what you say in public these days. Government is ruined by a bunch of socialists. :bump2:


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## Magnate

As always, tax increases will most affect the poor and uninformed... I may not be rich, but I am informed... and therefore, am not significantly concerned by this.


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## Perfecto Dave

Cigary said:


> AT some point in time the Gov't is going to get its filthy hands into your cigar lives and will be hitting all of us with added taxes. Whether they hit the retailors or they hit us it's going to happen. This is one reason I buy as much as I do now because when it hits me directly hopefully I will have enough years saved up on what I have bought beforehand. I am sick and tired of being taxed on top of taxes I am already paying. I am paying taxes on my wages and then if I put my already taxed money into a financial vehicle I get taxed on it again. This was NEVER the plan to get taxed twice and sometimes 3 times on money you have already earned. This is frustrating to endure a Gov't that taxes you so many times and then takes your tax money and throws a trillion dollars to the industries that have bilked us out of most of our saved earnings in the first place.


This is exactly why I subsidize my income with cash. It burns a new hole right in my ass to pay taxes on used stuff that was already taxed when it was new.


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## MoreBeer

With the enormous amount of debt this country has (and rising daily) you can bet they'll be taxing everything that isn't already taxed while existing taxes continue to escalate. They dug themselves DEEP into a hole and are looking for any way out. Just wait and see the epic rise of income tax audits beginning this year. Better hide your savings in the mattress so the IRS can't just take it from your accounts.


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## Herf N Turf

Come November, there will be enough newly unemployed Democrats out_ in front_ of the Capital, shining shoes, for this not to matter.

Behold, the ballot box rebellion is afoot!


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## soonersublime

The only problem is come November the best that can happen is the fiscal conservatives take over but the president still has veto power thus freezing all spending until Obama is removed.


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## Blackham

look up north :canada: it will make you feel better


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## centralharbor

I've been reading some comments on this and other threads, and I'm confused. Are we supposed to pay our state tobacco tax on internet purchases? And if so, does anyone enforce this? Or i guess a more appropriate question would be if they have the means to enforce it? Don't want the IRS to hit me with back taxes a few years down the road.


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## denarok

centralharbor said:


> I've been reading some comments on this and other threads, and I'm confused. Are we supposed to pay our state tobacco tax on internet purchases? And if so, does anyone enforce this? Or i guess a more appropriate question would be if they have the means to enforce it? Don't want the IRS to hit me with back taxes a few years down the road.


Good question, and in theory (well law but read on ) anytime you buy something over the internet whether it be cigars or any product, you are suppose to pay state taxes and do it yourself if the company you purchase from does not collect the taxes, but I really do not know anyone who does that. I think the law is called Use Tax.


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## ejgarnut

ghe said:


> I have no dog in this fight, but I can't help but think it is grossly unfair for retailers with a shop to have to compete against Internet operations that don't collect sales taxes and, in many cases, operate in Pa. and Fla. that have no cigar taxes. Couple that with the giant Internet operation CI and JR being owned by cigar manufacturers and, even though they also operate stores, and it is an uphill battle for retailers.


Not pickng on ya here, just throwing my opinion out...

It may be unfair to retailers, but why should our government implement taxes upon the internet sales? A better solution would be for the gov live within its means & lower taxes on retailers so as to level the playing field, and benefit the consumer at the same time.



Herf N Turf said:


> Come November, there will be enough newly unemployed Democrats out_ in front_ of the Capital, shining shoes, for this not to matter.


I hope there are plenty of RINOs that join them. This shoe shining stuff should be bi-partisan ya know.


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## orca99usa

> A better solution would be for the gov live within its means & lower taxes on retailers so as to level the playing field, and benefit the consumer at the same time.


Equalize taxes by _lowering_ them. What a concept!


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## golfermd

ejgarnut said:


> A better solution would be for the gov live within its means & lower taxes on retailers so as to level the playing field, and benefit the consumer at the same time.


 :hail:

What a novel concept. Wait until the VAT system is implemented. There was a thread that I read here that says something about addictions. It's time to wean our politicians from their addiction to our money. Better yet, make all those who want all the govenrment programs pay for them... :thumb:


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## oldforge

Central--in states with use taxes 99% of the residents are criminals who do not pay the correct tax on out of state and Internet purchases.

Criminal voters elected criminal politicians--welcome to the Matrix.


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## Arnie

ghe said:


> I have no dog in this fight, but I can't help but think it is grossly unfair for retailers with a shop to have to compete against Internet operations that don't collect sales taxes and, in many cases, operate in Pa. and Fla. that have no cigar taxes. Couple that with the giant Internet operation CI and JR being owned by cigar manufacturers and, even though they also operate stores, and it is an uphill battle for retailers.


The main reason retailers collect sales tax is they have a building that uses infrastructure, police and fire protection etc. The online retailers don't use that infrastructure. The punitive tobacco taxes are quite simply unjust, they should not exist. There is no reason to tax a legal product at a higher rate than other legal products. If an online store is based in PA they collect the appropriate taxes in their state, and their employees pay taxes. There is NO reason to tax the internet. The government will simply take that money and waste it.


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## Arnie

Herf N Turf said:


> Come November, there will be enough newly unemployed Democrats out_ in front_ of the Capital, shining shoes, for this not to matter.
> 
> Behold, the ballot box rebellion is afoot!


God, I hope you are right Herf. I fear that the ousted Dems will sell their connections for a nice fee and the Repubs will take their usual position as Democrat Lite, a speed bump on the road to socialist decline.


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## Mr. Slick

bfons303 said:


> Reason #2048 Im not a Dem


Spoken like scripture, Amen brother


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## marked

ejgarnut said:


> A better solution would be for the gov live within its means & lower taxes on retailers so as to level the playing field, and benefit the consumer at the same time.


That's one thing I loved about living in Oregon. Most tax measures had to be approved by the voter, and you can imagine how well any new tax measure went over. It had to be a DAMN important reason for the people to vote it in. Rarely happened. No sales tax, property taxes were cut and capped so they couldn't go up, etc.

I move to Arizona, and EVERYthing is taxed to hell and back. I pay a freakin' LUXURY tax to live in an apartment! Having a basic roof over your head is a luxury?!? Sales tax is 10% in some townships. Tobacco tax is out of control. 40 cents per stick on cigars on top of the 10% sales tax. A box of 25 that the retailer lists for $100 would end up costing $120. It's just ridiculous.

I often wish I'd never left. As awesome as the weather is here during the winter, I actually miss the rain sometimes.


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## Turtle

soonersublime said:


> You're only up to 2,048. I'm up to like 8 million. After the Bush tax cuts expire this year I will lose $8,000 of disposable income next year and my household income is FAR below the "I won't raise taxes on any household making less than $200,000" dude once lied about.


I hate my generation sometimes. No thought, just want everything handed to us. Just opening our mouths hoping someone will feed us.

Sublime - your more on board than most; most have no idea what is about to happen, how much money everyone stands to all of a sudden get taxed on. Especially with health care insurance being talked about being taxable income (really?!?). When everyone sees their tax BILL when they were expecting a refund - we are going to have alot of angry people. Hopefully enough angry people....


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## fanman1

Blackham said:


> look up north :canada: it will make you feel better


whats the taxing situation in canada on cigars?


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## zeavran1

The government has such a great plan that I think I’ll try it. I’m going to take excessive loans and max out all of my credit cards until my financial situation improves. Sounds logical, right? ……..DUMBASSES!! They feed their friends and families then screw us common people! All without dinner!! It’s TEA time!!


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## TXsmoker

denarok said:


> Democrats push for new Internet sales taxes | Politics and Law - CNET News
> 
> Was not sure where to post this since does not have to do directly with tobacco legislation but all internet retail.
> 
> I am guessing if this goes through we will then have to start paying taxes when we buy from places like CI and Famous and other sites?
> 
> Kind of stinks because online was the only place to get decent cigar prices.


Its supposed to encourage people to get off the net and deal localy. Quit sending money to a huge corporation, and spend it at your local B&M. You know, support those around you that are being screwed into the ground by anti-smoking policys. Support those that cant keep up with their overhead because of cities that tax them more than the shop right next door, just because they cater to users of the evil tobacco products. The only reason I buy something online is because I cant find it local. Support local shops, or they wont be there if you do need them. Also, the loss of sales to the internet sort of forces them to raise prices, just to keep bills paid.


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## Herf N Turf

TXsmoker said:


> Its supposed to encourage people to get off the net and deal localy. Quit sending money to a huge corporation, and spend it at your local B&M. You know, support those around you that are being screwed into the ground by anti-smoking policys. Support those that cant keep up with their overhead because of cities that tax them more than the shop right next door, just because they cater to users of the evil tobacco products. The only reason I buy something online is because I cant find it local. Support local shops, or they wont be there if you do need them. Also, the loss of sales to the internet sort of forces them to raise prices, just to keep bills paid.


Ah yes, the "level the playing field" argument!

No offense, Adam, but I can't help but be reminded that Phillip Morris used this same argument to tax loose cigarette tobacco clean out of business. They sent an army of lobbyists to DC to argue that if they taxed commercial cigarettes, the entire world would start rolling their own and non-smokers, seeing how cheap it really was, would start smoking!

Next thing you know, the tax stands at $27/lb. An industry, gone.

Regardless of retailers, the internet was designed and intended to be free. Just like the market. Just like the people. Whether or not any actually stay that way, depends entirely on the latter.


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## TXsmoker

Herf N Turf said:


> Ah yes, the "level the playing field" argument!
> 
> No offense, Adam, but I can't help but be reminded that Phillip Morris used this same argument to tax loose cigarette tobacco clean out of business. They sent an army of lobbyists to DC to argue that if they taxed commercial cigarettes, the entire world would start rolling their own and non-smokers, seeing how cheap it really was, would start smoking!
> 
> Next thing you know, the tax stands at $27/lb. An industry, gone.
> 
> Regardless of retailers, the internet was designed and intended to be free. Just like the market. Just like the people. Whether or not any actually stay that way, depends entirely on the latter.


Notice how there are less and less b&m's around? And all the ones you see will tell you that internet sales are killing them. One company that supplies a city will order so many cigars, and get a set deal on them. Now an internet company that sells nation wide can get a larger stock, at a lower price because of the added volume, and sell more. They also dont have to bother with state taxes, city taxes, or the overhead of having an actual storefront. A big cheap warehouse in the middle of nowhere is fine for them. Just like walmart screwing the little guys out of buisness, we have online tobacco doing the same thing. Its already the reason that its harder to find some tobacco's localy. You can buy all you want online, Ill support the guys that take the time to show me around the humidor, make suggestions, even let you see what you are about to buy. And Ill keep doing it because they are RIGHT HERE, just down the street, rather than somewhere else. These are the guys that deal with the same local anti-smoking crap that I do, I see them at resturaunts, gas stations, the grocery store, where ever. And Im more than willing to spend a little extra because they have a place for other smokers like myself to get together and socialise.

Of course, if your local b&m's suck, then I cant blame you for not giving them your money. The ones near me are helpful and friendly.


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## Surfer24

Well im from Taxachusetts, a very liberal state uke: and once the republicans gained the majority, a "friend" on facebook was flipping out. Here is one of his comments:
"i kno its crazy, the republicans did nothing but sabotage in two years. they are the reason for our debt and for the recession. Statistically republicans spend the most money without the revenue. its ridiculous. DO WE NOT REMEMBER THE 8 YEARS OF BUSH CRAP! wait till they f*ck up worse in these two years where we r legit crawling as a nation to get by, maybe AMERICA WILL FINALLY F*cKing realize!"
And thats coming from one of the "smartest" kids from my old high school. 

Me and my buds laughed our @sses off for an hour at his rant. Im glad my friends have a sense of reality. Maybe because we are all engineers :nerd:

And on the taxing internet dealers so everything is "fair and even", Communism also aims towards everything being "fair and even". So why should you be making more money than the kid at the fast food joint? Based on taxing online stores so its even, the government should either tax you more so you have the same income as the kid after taxes, or buy the kid a really nice tv, car and house, just like you buy with your own money.
Because life has to be fair right?


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## shannensmall

TXsmoker said:


> Its supposed to encourage people to get off the net and deal localy. Quit sending money to a huge corporation, and spend it at your local B&M. You know, support those around you that are being screwed into the ground by anti-smoking policys. Support those that cant keep up with their overhead because of cities that tax them more than the shop right next door, just because they cater to users of the evil tobacco products. The only reason I buy something online is because I cant find it local. Support local shops, or they wont be there if you do need them. Also, the loss of sales to the internet sort of forces them to raise prices, just to keep bills paid.


I'll make you a deal. Get my B&M shop owners here in Jacksonville Florida (no taxes on cigars) to stop charging what B&Ms in states that do charge taxes for smokes. And I will gladly buy from them. Currently the cheapest house brand yard gar is over 3 bucks a stick, no matter what store I visit.

Really there are so few shops in North East Florida, they kind of have a small monopoly and gouge us on prices. I paid over 40 bucks for a Padron 1926 recently. I did it knowing I was getting reamed.:kicknuts:


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## TXsmoker

shannensmall said:


> I'll make you a deal. Get my B&M shop owners here in Jacksonville Florida (no taxes on cigars) to stop charging what B&Ms in states that do charge taxes for smokes. And I will gladly buy from them. Currently the cheapest house brand yard gar is over 3 bucks a stick, no matter what store I visit.
> 
> Really there are so few shops in North East Florida, they kind of have a small monopoly and gouge us on prices. I paid over 40 bucks for a Padron 1926 recently. I did it knowing I was getting reamed.:kicknuts:


In my reply to Herf and Turf, you get your answer, last sentance. If they are screwing you, dont use them. Heck, start your own non-gouging tobacco store and make a killing. Some people still appreciate honesty and integrity in the merchants they deal with, and would become loyal customers.


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## Arnie

Well, if we are really going to be fair we need to support the online stores, too. Especially with the present economy, there are lots of smokers who have a little disposable income, but not much. So to be fair to THEM we need to keep the reasonably priced online stores in business. Look at the extra buying power CI gives to the lower income stogie smoker!!


Now that I think about it, it could be borderline racist to support your local B&M. I mean, there are huge populations of minorities who may have no access to the quality B&M's that you take for granted. Those folks depend on the internet for good smokes at affordable prices. I simply can't believe how utterly selfish those people who support B&M's are !! Capitalists!!! Republicans!!! Elitists!!!


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## shannensmall

TXsmoker said:


> In my reply to Herf and Turf, you get your answer, last sentance. If they are screwing you, dont use them. Heck, start your own non-gouging tobacco store and make a killing. Some people still appreciate honesty and integrity in the merchants they deal with, and would become loyal customers.


Indeed :bolt:


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## Dan-Hur

I'm sorry, but the "level the playing field" stuff is nonsense. In a free market, the businesses that do not cater to their customers' needs die. In a "free" market, the government taxes a successful business into oblivion and subsidizes the failing one. The government's job isn't to encourage one business over another as that completely destroys the concept of a free market where the consumers decide which businesses succeed and which ones fail. Last time I went to my B&M, I spent $42 on a grand total of 4 cigars. One Camacho Triple Maduro, two Hemingway signatures and one Flor de Oliva robusto. Purchased online from Famous(and including shipping at their cheapest rate and the current Ohio tax of 17%) I would have spent $40.75. That's not a massive, make-or-break difference is it? Without tax but including shipping, I would have paid $35.55. Again, not a major difference. For the sake of convenience, I could go down to my B&M, pick up those cigars, pay slightly more but be able to enjoy them right away. It's just a matter of which I prefer to do. The government should neither encourage or discourage my decisions.

Now, as for the corporations, they are people to. Yes, you don't see them and they probably aren't going to ask you how your day was, but who cares? If I can get what I need cheaper, then I'm going to pay them. That doesn't mean smaller businesses will inevitably fail. Bad smaller businesses that offer absolutely no incentive to pick them over the corporations(other than making people feel good for supporting a small business) are going to fail. For instance, very close by to me(closer than the Wal-Mart) is a hardware store. The guy there is friendly and super helpful whereas the Wal-Mart teen cashier is sullen and has no idea what a socket wrench is. The small business owner is offering me a very good incentive to shop at his store even with the elevated price. So, I'll go to him for service and Wal-Mart for price. It just depends on what is motivating me at the time.


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## Tman

You also have to factor in the occasional smokers. The occasional smokers would not be buying anything online. They would have no clue of what a robusto or torpedos are. For those people, it would be much more beneficial to be able to visit a local B&M and buy what they see. There's a certain convenience to buying at a local shop as opposed to online.

I actually buy majority of smokes that I haven't tried at a local B&M. If i know I really like the stick, I'll buy a box online since they seem to be able to sell them a lot cheaper than at my local B&M.

I think competition is good for consumers.


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## Arnie

Dan-Hur said:


> I'm sorry, but the "level the playing field" stuff is nonsense. In a free market, the businesses that do not cater to their customers' needs die. In a "free" market, the government taxes a successful business into oblivion and subsidizes the failing one. The government's job isn't to encourage one business over another as that completely destroys the concept of a free market where the consumers decide which businesses succeed and which ones fail. Last time I went to my B&M, I spent $42 on a grand total of 4 cigars. One Camacho Triple Maduro, two Hemingway signatures and one Flor de Oliva robusto. Purchased online from Famous(and including shipping at their cheapest rate and the current Ohio tax of 17%) I would have spent $40.75. That's not a massive, make-or-break difference is it? Without tax but including shipping, I would have paid $35.55. Again, not a major difference. For the sake of convenience, I could go down to my B&M, pick up those cigars, pay slightly more but be able to enjoy them right away. It's just a matter of which I prefer to do. The government should neither encourage or discourage my decisions.
> 
> Now, as for the corporations, they are people to. Yes, you don't see them and they probably aren't going to ask you how your day was, but who cares? If I can get what I need cheaper, then I'm going to pay them. That doesn't mean smaller businesses will inevitably fail. Bad smaller businesses that offer absolutely no incentive to pick them over the corporations(other than making people feel good for supporting a small business) are going to fail. For instance, very close by to me(closer than the Wal-Mart) is a hardware store. The guy there is friendly and super helpful whereas the Wal-Mart teen cashier is sullen and has no idea what a socket wrench is. The small business owner is offering me a very good incentive to shop at his store even with the elevated price. So, I'll go to him for service and Wal-Mart for price. It just depends on what is motivating me at the time.


Well said, Dan.


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## Broz

Dan-Hur said:


> The small business owner is offering me a very good incentive to shop at his store even with the elevated price. So, I'll go to him for service and Wal-Mart for price. It just depends on what is motivating me at the time.


You're an exception, most people don't think this way.

B&M tobacconists do have an advantage if they have a comfortable smoking parlor. You can't get that with CI. But if I'm looking for a box, if the B&M can't beat online prices I'm not shopping locally.


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## tpharkman

I don't have a decent B&M within 90 minutes of where I live so the choice is pretty clear for me. I travel a lot for work and I will definitely give business to those B&Ms that don't charge above retail when I find them. When I go into states like Minnesota where the tax is absolutely ridiculous I won't even go into a shop.


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