# How do you feel about Habanos S.As Direction



## RPB67 (Mar 26, 2005)

How do you feel about all the discontinued cigars ? 

It seems like alot of smaller ring cigars are being dis-continued and bigger ring cigars being re-introduced or made. I think getting rid of alot of the smaller formats is a big error on their part.

The ELs seem to be repeating themselves.

All the regional releases ? 

Also what do you think about Habanos making a Maduro cigar ?


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## j6ppc (Jun 5, 2006)

RPB67 said:


> How do you feel about all the discontinued cigars ?
> 
> It seems like alot of smaller ring cigars are being dis-continued and bigger ring cigars being re-introduced or made. I think getting rid of alot of the smaller formats is a big error on their part.


I hate to see more and more smaller RG cigars go away. These represent my everyday go to smokes. Robusto and up are nice but not everyday smokes, at least not for me anyway.

Sizes like the Petit Corona, Demi Corona, Cadete and Marevas fill a definite needed niche IMHO. Getting all I can get hold of (and can afford) 'cos if the trend continues these will be mostly extinct in a few short years.


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## etenpenny (Dec 12, 2005)

With the exception of a few Im ok with the cut list as these werent on my regular smoke rotation anyway. The good news is that there should always be good thin smokes like the monte especial and the funidores that will fill the need. As long as they stay away from some certain cigars ill be fine. I seem to remember the old cut list from a few years back getting me quite worried when I saw that one though, good thing not all of those were eventually cut.

E


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## Ermo (Jun 3, 2006)

I hate maduros!!

But I don't like the direction they are going.  I thnk it is becoming more about hype and image. I prefer a 42 RG and a lot of these sizes are on the "cut list".

On a side note, the cut list that was displayed on this site is a working list, the official cut list is not released to the public. So I wouldn't panic if your favorite smoke is on the list, this specific list is just cigars that will not be produced in 2007, not discontinued forever. This is due to the high amount of stock vendors have on hand, and to warn them to stock up if they want.

However, the direction Habanos SA goes is ultimately decided by us, the consumer, by our purchasing habits. If the new edmundos and PSD4 are flying off the shelves and the upmann lonsdales are sitting around from 01, if you ran HAbanos SA, which is a business, you would produce what is selling and makes you the most profit.

The proof that Habanos SA wants to make money is in the new boxcode system. Before, they wanted nobody to know any of their code, with the NIVELACUSO format. Now they realize making date codes easily decipherable is a good business decision because it promotes buying and storing habanos, which increases their sales volume. They now want everyone to know how to figure the date on the box, so they made it super-easy. Notice though that they change the factory codes periodically so poeple still buy boxes from the provinvcial factories. They now WANT us to know the date, but not the factory.

Follow the $$$.


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## Ermo (Jun 3, 2006)

Interesting history on the NIVELACUSO scheme. It was originally implemented to keep quality control figures for HAbanos SA. They could track who was responsible for the factory at the time they were produced using these box codes, and the proper people could be punished for their quality or practices. Thats how the codes started, to track employees and maintain factory workers to be held accountable for their cigars, which was hard totrack without coding the boxes.

NIVELACUSO means Never accuse


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## jgros001 (Jun 14, 2005)

Habanos' direction is good in some ways, ie increased quality control. While I haven't smoked anything from '06, the reviews I am hearing is good. The Regional Releases I like a lot. Interesting sizes in some of my favorite lines...RA, Punch, Larranga.

What I do not like.... ELs, I really cannot get into those thick wrappers. The discontinuation of smaller cigars while everything new coming out seems to be bigger and bigger. The corona is one of my favorite vitolas and they are going by the wayside.

The maduro? I don't know what to think about this right now. If it is good, then I'm on board...but it remains to be seen right now.


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## ATLHARP (May 3, 2005)

jgros001 said:


> Habanos' direction is good in some ways, ie increased quality control. While I haven't smoked anything from '06, the reviews I am hearing is good. The Regional Releases I like a lot. Interesting sizes in some of my favorite lines...RA, Punch, Larranga.
> 
> What I do not like.... ELs, I really cannot get into those thick wrappers. The discontinuation of smaller cigars while everything new coming out seems to be bigger and bigger. The corona is one of my favorite vitolas and they are going by the wayside.
> 
> The maduro? I don't know what to think about this right now. If it is good, then I'm on board...but it remains to be seen right now.


I am not so much upset about the cut list as I am about certain cigars that I would like to see in certain sizes (Maybe a PL Robusto or a serious 50 ring Monte Robusto outside of an EL). I di wish they didn't cut the Sanchos or the Tainos. Bolivar Coronas will be missed as well.

ATL


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## Tampa1257 (Jul 27, 2006)

I have commented for a very long time that I have been concerned about the overall direction that Habanos S.A. has been taking in regards to line items, discontinued and new items placement. The trend should be very alarming to everyone that enjoys thin ring gauge Habanos. While it has been argued that the "Best Sellers" and new introduction cigars have all been thick ring gauge cigars such as the Montecristo Edmundo and the Cohiba Siglo VI, what about adding a new line extension of a smaller ring gauge to many of the marcas that are missing the product assortment? My personal preference decidedly prefers smaller ring cigars because I find the flavors more intense, bold and complex than I do in larger ring cigars. Just my humble opinion, but adding an extra leaf of Volado to gain the girth does not add to the flavor. The only way in my opinion to gain or at least maintain the current assortment of the thinner ring cigars available is to increase sales of those items. How do we accomplish that? Well it takes people smoking them, talking about them, writing cigar reviews about them which will in turn bring the information out to the cigar community and perhaps new cigar smokers will read and learn about them and decide to buy them.

I have not been a supporter of the Edición Limitada's but I do like the idea of limited release Regional items, which will help the retailers out with quick and profitable shelf turns.


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## KraZieMaN55 (Oct 2, 2005)

Regardless of which direction Habanos S.A. is going there will remain an insatiable appetite and demand for their cigars. I personally prefer small ring gauge cigars and agree with Tampa1257 about the flavors being more intense and bold over the larger ones.


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## zemekone (Aug 1, 2004)

RPB67 said:


> How do you feel about all the discontinued cigars ?
> 
> It seems like alot of smaller ring cigars are being dis-continued and bigger ring cigars being re-introduced or made. I think getting rid of alot of the smaller formats is a big error on their part.
> 
> ...


I feel that the RG line is gonna go the way of the Belinda and Los Statos, i never see anyone talk about the RGs (except cigarflip), until now that, that EFFING CUT LIST came out (yes thats how i really feel)

Im totally pissed that they are getting rid of the smaller RGs, only that what im smoking right now, the pan largas, slenderellas, elegantes...

Not a but fan of the ELs, but i know brothers who love them...

I havent had any of the new ones, but i like the ones i have tried!

BAAAAAAAAAA maddies... that what i think about that...

:2


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## Full Bodied Bruce (Aug 9, 2006)

Another stroke of genius from a centrally controlled economy. Suprised the Spaniards they hired to straighten out their cigar industry allowed that to happen.


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## BP22 (Apr 13, 2006)

RPB67 said:


> How do you feel about all the discontinued cigars ?
> 
> It seems like alot of smaller ring cigars are being dis-continued and bigger ring cigars being re-introduced or made. I think getting rid of alot of the smaller formats is a big error on their part.
> 
> ...


I'm bummed about the discontinued cigars because I have not had the opportunity to smoke most of them.

Just as I am really getting into smaller RG cigars, they keep cutting them. Again, before I have gotten the opportunity to smoke most of them.

ELs...I have a few haven't smoked any yet. No opinion.

Regional Releases...see above.

Maduro...I think the NCs have this well taken care of.


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## n2advnture (Aug 9, 2004)

I am all for the increased quality control but the draw machines IMHO are going to kill the ageability of the newer smokes unless they can keep the rollers from underfilling them so they pass.

~Mark


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## BP22 (Apr 13, 2006)

n2advnture said:


> I am all for the increased quality control but the draw machines IMHO are going to kill the ageability of the newer smokes unless they can keep the rollers from underfilling them so they pass.
> 
> ~Mark


That is an interesting point Mark. Hopefully the other quality controls features will take of that before it becomes a problem.


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## Lumpold (Apr 28, 2005)

Full Bodied Bruce said:


> Another stroke of genius from a centrally controlled economy. Suprised the Spaniards they hired to straighten out their cigar industry allowed that to happen.


Considering that the trend with non-cuban cigars has been to larger RG in the past years, I think that this has absolutely nothing to do with centrally controlled economy. More, I think it looks like Habanos SA have seen what people outside of cuba in the cigar world have done, and followed blindly. Blame communism for a whole load of things in Cuba, but I don't think Habanos killing off smaller RG cigars is one of them.


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## RPB67 (Mar 26, 2005)

They say the larger cigar takes the more experienced roller.

Does this mean that they have more experienced rollers now ? 

or are the not so experienced rollers going to be rolling these cigars and the will quality suffer a bit ?


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

RPB67 said:


> They say the larger cigar takes the more experienced roller.


I thought the thinner ring cigars are harder to roll? To wipe out Rafael Gonzalez brand is horrible! I love thinner ring cigars and have buying them for about 60% or my purchases this year. The market dictates what gets axed and the consumers have decided. We are a niche crowd and not necessarily what the masses think.

As for EL's we'll have to wait and see if they are truly great with 10+ years on them. Obviously, they are not an everyday smoke for most people. They do look crude and not worthy of the big price just on looks. Compare the EL's to the new SCdH's, and the EL's look like seconds&#8230;

Just stock up on what you like, Habanos is inevitably evolves, or we still be smoking La Coronas&#8230;


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## partagaspete (Apr 27, 2004)

I know I will miss the Boli Corona. I have a box that is young but I can tell they will be great.

T


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## TU09 (Mar 26, 2006)

Lumpold said:


> Considering that the trend with non-cuban cigars has been to larger RG in the past years, I think that this has absolutely nothing to do with centrally controlled economy. More, I think it looks like Habanos SA have seen what people outside of cuba in the cigar world have done, and followed blindly. Blame communism for a whole load of things in Cuba, but I don't think Habanos killing off smaller RG cigars is one of them.


Absolutely. I am still fairly new to Habanos but always prefer smaller RGs in any cigar, habanos or NC. I suppose alot of my dissapointment about the list is that I will never get to try many of these cigars. Still plenty available to try, just fewer in my prefered size.


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## Sandman (Mar 26, 2006)

I'm just wondering what sticks with a smaller RG have been released in recent years. I can't seem to think of any.


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## wij (May 25, 2006)

mosesbotbol said:


> I thought the thinner ring cigars are harder to roll? To wipe out Rafael Gonzalez brand is horrible! I love thinner ring cigars and have buying them for about 60% or my purchases this year. The market dictates what gets axed and the consumers have decided. We are a niche crowd and not necessarily what the masses think.
> 
> As for EL's we'll have to wait and see if they are truly great with 10+ years on them. Obviously, they are not an everyday smoke for most people. They do look crude and not worthy of the big price just on looks. Compare the EL's to the new SCdH's, and the EL's look like seconds&#8230;
> 
> Just stock up on what you like, Habanos is inevitably evolves, or we still be smoking La Coronas&#8230;


:tpd: I also heard that the thinner RG was more difficult to roll.


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## luckybandit (Jul 9, 2006)

also prefer a 42 ring gauge petite corona or mareva, there are pleanty of isom's that fit the bill. hope someday having a favorite right now trying to enjoy all of the above

ps price on these usually fits the bill


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## MikeZ (Sep 23, 2005)

Lumpold said:


> ...More, I think it looks like Habanos SA have seen what people outside of cuba in the cigar world have done, and followed blindly.


I firmly disagree that they have followed blindly. As someone said earlier, follow the money. We all know that they can't meet worldwide demand for Cuban cigars. So like any other business, they focus their raw materials on the products with the best return. If thin RG cigars sold better than wide, it stands to reason that they would continue with production and possibly expand it. If you ran a business with the goal of not just being profitable but having the revenue to expand R&D, modernization of facilities with better and earlier training of the torcedors, you would do the same thing.

Even if your favorite thin RGs go out of production today, you can look forward to the ever changing tastes of consumers to one day bring them back in demand.


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

MikeZ said:


> Even if your favorite thin RGs go out of production today, you can look forward to the ever changing tastes of consumers to one day bring them back in demand.


I know my tastes have changed from 10 years ago. 10 years ago, I loved robustos and the stronger the better. Now, I am a Lonsdale and Laguito smoker.

Always loved the topedo and churchill, prefer the medium wrapper, use to love dark wrapper... Hardly ever smoke or buy robustos.


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## Puffy69 (Sep 8, 2005)

Im with ya Rich..I love my small Vitolas..


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## RPB67 (Mar 26, 2005)

I always thought that a top quality Cuban was not to dark and the dark ones with very dark wrappers were to be kinda second quality.

The Cohibas are cosistenly light chocolate brown. 

The Bolivars that are a little cheaper most of the time have darker wrappers than the Cohibas. The wrapper consistensy is not there across brands and sometimes types.

Lately the wrappers on the cigars I have noticed have been getting darker. Take a look at an 05 box and a 00 box. I sometimes wonder ifHabanos has trouble producing quality wrappers at times. 

The Limited editions. When they first started making them they used a Cuban preference of Claro wrappers. The maduro wrappers were created from leaves that the Cubans never previosly used as they required aging to be useable. In 2000 they decided to use these leaves to wrap the ne LEs and even the Cubans were concerned at how they would be accepted. 

Also consider the timing of the LEs 98 and 99 were very bad years for habanos. Cuban quality leaves were in relatively short supply. Maybe they said we are short on wrappers lets use these dark ones.

Make no confusion between darker and maduro wrappers. 

Alot is based on what we are told as buyers. There is way more behind the scenes then what we know and what we are told.

At the end of the day who cares what color the wrapper is as long as they maintain the quality . What would be nice instead of all this talk about maduros, they make some different vitolas and blends or resurect some of the oldie but goodies.


****** This is the summation of a chat conversation I had with one of my over sea vendors and a friend who is big cigar collector from over seas as well.


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## Lumpold (Apr 28, 2005)

MikeZ said:


> I firmly disagree that they have followed blindly. As someone said earlier, follow the money. We all know that they can't meet worldwide demand for Cuban cigars. So like any other business, they focus their raw materials on the products with the best return. If thin RG cigars sold better than wide, it stands to reason that they would continue with production and possibly expand it. If you ran a business with the goal of not just being profitable but having the revenue to expand R&D, modernization of facilities with better and earlier training of the torcedors, you would do the same thing.
> 
> Even if your favorite thin RGs go out of production today, you can look forward to the ever changing tastes of consumers to one day bring them back in demand.


Indeed, I'm not saying the intentions behind the change in RG direction aren't good, what I am saying is that through conversations with my local B&M, I don't think Habanos have done all the market research they could have done. It would seem that in the UK, at least, smaller RG cigars still make up a large percentage of the market (my B&M thinks this runs somewhere around 40%) and sure, remove some lines, but don't leave those who do smoke them with fewer choices, especially as we seem to be moving towards another cigar 'boom' in this country, which will mean an even lower standard with increased production... Don't get me wrong, there are some of the bigger RG cigars I really like, nay, love (The RA Beli that's been mentioned quite a bit, Sancho Belis, HdM Petit Robustos... yeah, love 'em...) but that doesn't mean I'd like 4 gazillion (OK, over exaggerating here) different huge RG vitolas. Just my :2 (or 2 pence, as it were....)


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

RPB67 said:


> What would be nice instead of all this talk about maduros, they make some different vitolas and blends or resurect some of the oldie but goodies.


I would really like to see Habanos come out cigars/blends that were popular before the Revolution, kind like the retro trend we see in automobiles. Instead of EL's, how about a 1950's blended style cigar?

The dark wrappers I think is geared to what Habanos marketing-research staff concluded was ideal to their sucess. Setting a course to this takes years and it's not something they can just change course half-way through.


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## RPB67 (Mar 26, 2005)

Found this, taken from XXXXXXX site:

"In recent years the Cuban industry had concentrated on producing wrappers for their main brands that varied from Claro (light brown) to Colorado-Claro (mid brown) and Colorado (dark brown). To achieve this they selected the leaves exclusively from the middle section of the shade-grown tobacco plants known as the Centro Fino and Centro Ligero. The leaves from higher up the plant, known as Centro Gordo and Coronas, were rejected and used only for cigars to be sold on the domestic Cuban market.

The leaves from these upper levels are younger, thicker and full of oils. They naturally produce darker colours after curing and their thickness demands that they should be fermented longer, which further enriches the colour. Also, to avoid an overbearing taste, they need to be aged in bales for at least two years before they can be used on a cigar.

In 2000 the Cuban industry’s warehouses were full of this type of wrapper leaf. It had been harvested in 1997/98 (Dec/March) and was fully aged. The decision was taken to open the bales and consider using them for Edicion Limitada. A debate then raged over whether such dark wrappers, usually termed Maduro (Ripe) or Colorado Maduro (Dark and Ripe), would challenge the reputation of Havana cigars, particularly because they sometimes have a somewhat mottled appearance. By chance Hunters & Frankau’s Marketing Director, Simon Chase, visited Havana in June 2000 and was shown some prototype cigars. He reassured Habanos SA that in the UK there was a demand for dark and oily wrappers and he felt that they would prove popular in Britain."


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## The Professor (Jul 20, 2006)

j6ppc said:


> I hate to see more and more smaller RG cigars go away. These represent my everyday go to smokes. Robusto and up are nice but not everyday smokes, at least not for me anyway.
> 
> Sizes like the Petit Corona, Demi Corona, Cadete and Marevas fill a definite needed niche IMHO. Getting all I can get hold of (and can afford) 'cos if the trend continues these will be mostly extinct in a few short years.


:tpd: Exactly. ~d.


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## RPB67 (Mar 26, 2005)

Seems wierd how they refer to them as Maduros, when they are much lighter compared to a Maduro produced here in the U.S. 

I think the original Els from 2000 and 2001 and some of 2002 seem much darker than the recent production of Els.


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## ESP (Jan 1, 2000)

When LATADIS monopoly started controlling pretty much everything from production to marketing, the situation became worst. Before then Cubatobaco and Habanos sometimes yielded to market pressures at the same time tried to keep the status quo. Then was it around 2000 that the distribution, marketing and production merged in the form of ALTADIS - and it even acquired large shares in some of the regional distributors such as Spain, France and UK. Well, can we expect anything less than what we are getting here? They study our buying patterns like any other large corporation would do, and decide pretty much based on that. However on something like cigars some hidden gems can be lost in this shuffle,, many a times a cigar that is not popular has a very good chance of being consistent!

Many of the great cigars in Cuba were created during the free market capitalist era of pre 1968, after revolution we had a few sparks like Davidoff and in smaller scales some of the regional distributors demanding new vitolas - most of which were pre ALTADIS.

IMO these days the market drives this business - not love!


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## Corona Gigante-cl (Sep 8, 2005)

Great thread.

I was interested by the notion that the new regular production maduro was aimed squarely at the US market. I think there is a perception in this country that darker wrapper = more flavorful cigar. I think that perception is much less prevalent in the rest of the world.


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## M1903A1 (Jun 7, 2006)

mosesbotbol said:


> I would really like to see Habanos come out cigars/blends that were popular before the Revolution, kind like the retro trend we see in automobiles. Instead of EL's, how about a 1950's blended style cigar?


Do they really have the know-how left from before the Revolution to do that?

I imagine most, if not all, of the people with that knowledge bugged out long ago, and we'd have to wait for the inevitable (I hope) political sea change that would lead to the end of the embargo and the return of some of the old cigar families to the Cuban cigar industry.


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## niterider56 (Jun 30, 2006)

[I imagine most, if not all, of the people with that knowledge bugged out long ago, and we'd have to wait for the inevitable (I hope) political sea change that would lead to the end of the embargo and the return of some of the old cigar families to the Cuban cigar industry.[/QUOTE]

I agree with you but I think that will be a double edged sword at the beginning. Everyone that smokes and even some that have not will want to experience the mystique of cuban cigars. This could create a shortage and also price increases in the beginning. If their is a shortage this could cause quality control problems. Hopefully I will have sufficiant stock to last a few years when this does happen. :2


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

M1903A1 said:


> Do they really have the know-how left from before the Revolution to do that?
> 
> I imagine most, if not all, of the people with that knowledge bugged out long ago, and we'd have to wait for the inevitable (I hope) political sea change that would lead to the end of the embargo and the return of some of the old cigar families to the Cuban cigar industry.


Assuming that they are growing the same varietals of tobacco used back then (they very well may not be at this point), there's no reason why they could not do a "retro blended" cigar. What's in the blend is not a secret or in one person's head only- I can assure you. Whether or not the embargo ends will have little affect on whether Habanos can effectively recreate an "old school" cigar.

Unless Habanos marketing team sees the demand, I don't think we'll see retro cigars; Cuaba is going to be the closest to that, and maybe VR's.

If Habanos direction leads to a good cigar, with 25 well rolled cigars in each box, I am happy at a minimum. I don't miss the days of finding 3 lemons in each box...


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## M1903A1 (Jun 7, 2006)

niterider56 said:


> [I imagine most, if not all, of the people with that knowledge bugged out long ago, and we'd have to wait for the inevitable (I hope) political sea change that would lead to the end of the embargo and the return of some of the old cigar families to the Cuban cigar industry.





> I agree with you but I think that will be a double edged sword at the beginning. Everyone that smokes and even some that have not will want to experience the mystique of cuban cigars. This could create a shortage and also price increases in the beginning. If their is a shortage this could cause quality control problems. Hopefully I will have sufficiant stock to last a few years when this does happen. :2


True...and as I've said before, I suspect a great many run-of-the-mill Yank cigar smokers will just as quickly (or within a coupla sticks) say "This is too powerful" or "too expensive" or "what was the big deal all those years".

Having friends whose idea of a good stick is an AyC Grenadier or (shiver) a Muriel, I know from whence I speak....


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## j6ppc (Jun 5, 2006)

niterider56 said:


> I think that will be a double edged sword at the beginning. Everyone that smokes and even some that have not will want to experience the mystique of cuban cigars. This could create a shortage and also price increases in the beginning. If their is a shortage this could cause quality control problems. Hopefully I will have sufficiant stock to last a few years when this does happen. :2


Time will tell. The embargo will (probably) eventually get lifted.
I think it is important to remember that the market for Cuban cigars is currenty one where demand already exceeds supply. When the embargo lifts there will surely be an uptick in prices. If memory serves even with the best of intentions there is a 2+ year lag between growing the leaf and a finished cigar so even if they decided to up production today it would be 2009 or so before any significant product increase hit the market.

I don't think quality will suffer all too badly post-embargo - Cuba has too much riding on that export product to throw it away by shipping pure crap. Price increases are a given though, why double production and sacrifice quality when you can simply double the price w/o doubling cost?

The more interesting question IMHO is 5-10 years post embargo when the former producers who have returned to Cuba after some form of wiedergutmachung start to come on line. That could well result in increased production and quality - those folks have been doing very well indeed using NC tobacco; imagine the result if say the Padrons put their minds to producing Cuban cigars.


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## Baric (Jun 14, 2006)

I really think small RGs are incredibly important for a good product range and am disappointed in this respect to be honest, however, i do think SA have been making some very important moves (aging cigars, freezng them) which will benefit the cigar smoking community. i cant wait to see how they move in the future-theyre a very interesting company, making some dynamic moves.


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## RPB67 (Mar 26, 2005)

Although EL's are released ready to smoke, considering the quality of the leaf, filler, binder as well as wrapper; wouldn't it seem logical that El's would be expected to improve over an even longer period?


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

RPB67 said:


> Although EL's are released ready to smoke, considering the quality of the leaf, filler, binder as well as wrapper; wouldn't it seem logical that El's would be expected to improve over an even longer period?


The only box of EL's I own have improved over the year I own them. I have a feeling that any EL with a decade plus on them is going to be epic.


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## wij (May 25, 2006)

j6ppc said:


> imagine the result if say the Padrons put their minds to producing Cuban cigars.


I was playing with the same idea.:dr


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