# Are high end pipes really worth it?



## Jeff10236 (Nov 21, 2010)

Just looking for other opinions. I'm divided on this myself.

I own a Radice and a Ser Jacopo and I'm not 100% sure if they really smoke any better than my Savinellis and Hardcastles. They certainly do look nicer though (and some of my Petes, Savs, Hardcastles and similar are some pretty good looking pipes).

So, for someone like me who is a smoker, who appreciates a nice pipe, but is not really a collector, is there really any advantage to the higher end pipes? If not, at what level do things start to tip?

I'm thinking about adding another pipe. While I do love my Ser Jacopo and Radice, I also love the lower lines I mentioned above. I do _think_ my high end pipes smoke better, but I'm not totally sure if that is just psychology since I paid so much.

I'm thinking about ponying up some money and buying something from Northern Briar, Ferndown, Ashton, or possibly even Dunhill to add a high end English to my high end Italians (and I love the mid-level English pipes). For someone who is more a smoker than a collector, is there really any value to buying at this level over just adding a Parker or another Hardcastle, Ben Wade, or Invicta?


----------



## Commander Quan (May 6, 2003)

Factory pipes are like cars, as you go up in price you should expect a better fit and finish, and the less likelihood of a lemon but it's not guaranteed. 

With an artisan pipe as you increase in price you are paying for craftsmanship, uniqueness, and should expect a high level of quality. 

I recently had the chance to inspect an estate Peterson that was a pretty rare pipe. Brand new it probably cost $300, and the drilling on it was Basket Pipe quality. So just because you pay a premium price does not indicate a premium product.


----------



## freestoke (Feb 13, 2011)

Dunhills seem especially overpriced among the common pricey pipes. Personally, I think pipes smoke only so well and that's it. An extra pretty pipe or rare pipe costs extra, but your basic great looking pipe with premium smoking characteristics can be had for far less than one might think in the estate world.


----------



## Thirston (Feb 2, 2011)

Very subjective topic but I’m currently selling many of my high priced pipes not just to pay some unexpected bills, but because I’ve become reacquainted with my Savinelli’s and I like how lightweight certain shapes are, the thin bits, and how well they smoke. Never thought that would happen and everyone is different, but you have to try a lot of pipes to really find what you like and determine for yourself.


----------



## MarkC (Jul 4, 2009)

Tough one... I mean, you're already smoking Radice and Ser Jacopo, so it's not like you're going to be jumping from Dr. Grabow. I can't really say, but then in my case, there is a big difference between my Radice and my Savinellis in my mind (keep in mind my Savinelli's are cheap: EX Baronets). From what I understand (as I haven't moved very far up the chain myself; my 'biggest name' is a Castello) there is a law of diminishing returns, just like in stereo equipment. Jumping from a fifty dollar pipe to a hundred dollar pipe is probably going to get you a lot more improvement than a jump from $500 to $1000.


----------



## dj1340 (Mar 30, 2009)

My .02 and nothing more. I like a pipe that I can run a cleaner through. That to me tells me the maker took the time
To ensure it was drilled properly. Also I look at the grain and general craftsmanship of the pipe. Does more money buy
You that? Sometimes but not always. As always, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, I really like Karl Erik pipes and 
Randy Wiley ones. Depends on what fits yor hands and mouth.


----------



## laloin (Jun 29, 2010)

I don't have any high end pipes. Think my most expensive pipe was a Peterson Irish army pipe that rarely gets smoked, caz the bowl is huge. I bought it caz I always like the Irish army design. I have several estate pipes. my cheap basket no named bent dublin smokes like a dream. 
If I were you, and you states your more a smoker then collector, I would spend that money on tobacco then pipes. You never know when they will shut off internet sales of tobacco.


----------



## MarkC (Jul 4, 2009)

Troy has a good point. I'll admit, I've been more diligent about building my cellar than buying pipes for that very reason: I figure I can always get pipes; tobacco might not always be easy to acquire.


----------



## Irfan (Dec 18, 2011)

freestoke said:


> Dunhills seem especially overpriced among the common pricey pipes. Personally, I think pipes smoke only so well and that's it. An extra pretty pipe or rare pipe costs extra, but your basic great looking pipe with premium smoking characteristics can be had for far less than one might think in the estate world.


Totally. Really valuable collectors stamps probably don't stick any better to the envelope than any other stamp.

Good estate pipes from less well known and sought after makers are the next best deal in the pipe smoking world after Cornell and Diehl bulk tobacco.

f


----------



## nikonnut (Dec 4, 2011)

Irfan said:


> Totally. Really valuable collectors stamps probably don't stick any better to the envelope than any other stamp.


Amen! This is the second reason I love my Stanwells (The first is that they are great smokers!). I can get pretty pipes designed by the greats for not much money. Makers like Tom Etlang, Sixten Ivarson (and family), Jess Chroswitch, and Anne Julie for a faction of the real deal.


----------



## steinr1 (Oct 22, 2010)

I've got a few Pre-transition Barling pipes. These were at least towards "high end" in their day. Wood selection is superb (in terms of weight and water absorption; not graining. That's irrelevant when smoked.) Construction is superb. Design is "standard". Overall quality and finish is very good indeed. The pipes are all comfortable in the hand and mouth. They all smoke faultlessly. They are among the most expensive pipes I own. Are they worth the extra?

A resounding *"Yes"*.



freestoke said:


> Dunhills seem especially overpriced among the common pricey pipes.


True, true. Dunghill are masters of marketing.



> Personally, I think pipes smoke only so well and that's it. An extra pretty pipe or rare pipe costs extra, but your basic great looking pipe with premium smoking characteristics can be had for far less than one might think in the estate world.


Perhaps a Pre-transition Barling. I wish I had access to the estate pipes that you have in the US. A couple of hundred dollars will get you the best constructed pipe you could ever wish for. And it will keep its value after you are finished with it. Not that you will ever be.



Commander Quan said:


> Factory pipes are like cars, as you go up in price you should expect a better fit and finish, and the less likelihood of a lemon but it's not guaranteed.


I agree totally. Not quite a guarantee, but much less likely to have problems and much more chance of redress if there is one. With an inexpensive factory pipe it would be churlish to expect a replacement if it gurgled a bit.



> With an artisan pipe as you increase in price you are paying for craftsmanship, uniqueness, and should expect a high level of quality.


True, but the second part (uniqueness) could work against you in a smoking device. The standard shapes are, in my opinion, standard for a reason. They work. There has been plenty of time for designs to be optimised. If not using "new materials", I find it hard to believe that a modern pipe maker will suddenly achieve a sea change in how a pipe performs.



> I recently had the chance to inspect an estate Peterson that was a pretty rare pipe. Brand new it probably cost $300, and the drilling on it was Basket Pipe quality. So just because you pay a premium price does not indicate a premium product.


Hmmm. I understand that this is somewhat of a risk with Peterson, even today. QC seems to be a bit sketchy (I have read). Possibly due to the amount of Guinness consumed at any particular time.


----------



## Variables (Dec 2, 2009)

I don't regret any of my high-end pipe purchases. I enjoy the craftsmanship that went into them, and smoke the heck out of them. If you find one that calls out to you, and you are able to afford it, go for it! BTW, Ashtons are killer pipes, and worth every penny. Jimmy Craig is a fantastic pipe maker.


----------



## Commander Quan (May 6, 2003)

steinr1 said:


> True, but the second part (uniqueness) could work against you in a smoking device. The standard shapes are, in my opinion, standard for a reason. They work. There has been plenty of time for designs to be optimised. If not using "new materials", I find it hard to believe that a modern pipe maker will suddenly achieve a sea change in how a pipe performs.


Standard shapes are standard because they can easily be reproduced, and can be done so from a standard stummel. Any shape can smoke well if it drafts well, but a Dunhill Microphone or a Kei'Ichi Gotoh speared fish will never be a standard shape because it takes too much effort for them to be replicated. Likewise you probably won't get your Rad Davis Bent Billiard confused with another at your monthly pipe club meeting, but I'm sure it smokes wonderfully.


----------



## MarkC (Jul 4, 2009)

When you look at the actual functioning parts of the pipe (the chamber and the airway), there just aren't that many different shapes out there. They may be surrounded by different patterns of wood, but I don't see a whole lot of variation other than angle. Obviously, there are small variations, or one pipe wouldn't smoke better than the other. But if anyone is going to tell me that a standard bulldog smokes so much better than a standard pot when they're both the same friggin' pipe, I'm going to have to see a little more explanation than 'gut feeling'...


----------



## steinr1 (Oct 22, 2010)

MarkC said:


> When you look at the actual functioning parts of the pipe (the chamber and the airway), there just aren't that many different shapes out there. They may be surrounded by different patterns of wood, but I don't see a whole lot of variation other than angle. Obviously, there are small variations, or one pipe wouldn't smoke better than the other. But if anyone is going to tell me that a standard bulldog smokes so much better than a standard pot when they're both the same friggin' pipe, I'm going to have to see a little more explanation than 'gut feeling'...


On the whole, I agree. But where's the fun in that...

Fluid dymanics is difficult. Very hard sums, long division and more. Particularly when forced draw is combined with convection and a non standard "user". I don't have that knowledge and skill (very few really do...) and won't attempt to explain anything theoretically. However, empirically, there are differences in how a Pot smokes in comparison to a Bulldog. Bowl height to width ratio, the bulk of wood in the bowl and much else, I'm sure, go into this. Regardless, the fact is that they smoke differently. I'm assuming that they are both "blueprinted" and of excellent material quality. One will be "better" for a particular tobacco and, most importantly, smoker and situation. And so will the other one.

I alluded to the last point in a thread about relighting a pipe and the "perfect smoke". That's so much more to it than just the processing of tobacco into ash and saving on matches or lighter fuel.

I can't deny that I get a kick out of smoking a pipe that was made more than a century ago. It doesn't make it smoke any better for that, but to me, the experience is enhanced. There is a direct link with the grand tradition of pipe making and the events of the past and I would and do pay a premium for this. Many pay the (to my view) excess to smoke a Dunhill pipe. I don't deny them the pleasure they get. That pipe is better for them.

On the more technical side, the fact that a pipe is particularly well finished probably has no effect. I can't see it. But the care in construction and the quality of the wood does show itself in the smoking experience. Not to say that you can't luck out and get a basket pipe that is technically perfect and of superb wood. It just ain't that likely.

Pipe construction is a compromise. It seems pretty obvious that the common entry point of the draw hole is wrong if you want to have an even burn across the tobacco. A central, vertical bore seems better. But the practicalities of keeping the tobacco from falling out (given the inconsiderate location of the human pie-hole; a blow-hole on top of the head should be considered), preventing the condensate and "bits" from the burn getting into the mouth, cost considerations, etc., etc. mean we have the standard shapes we know and mostly love. Opinion seems to be that the bent pipe is intrinsically "better" at resolving most of the technical issues. Straight pipes are a relatively modern affectation. The standard bent in itself is a compromise. Getting the drilling to the right point is a nightmare for smooth gas flow. But they are generally good enough for the money. To do it "right" costs a lot more. To my knowledge only Genod ever bored a bent pipe properly, at least commercially. If you wanted the high end smoking experience that this brings (I am told) then you had to pay the high end price.

A pipe stem is just a tube shaped in a particular way. These can be made of many materials. I don't think that anyone would make much of a case that one material will make the pipe smoke better than another. However, one is acrylic and one amber. Which one is better? Many protest that pipe smoking for them is a hobby, not a habit. For the nicotine addict, the material should be immaterial (hah!); for the hobbyist it makes for a better experience and this, I contend makes for a better smoke and the cost can be easilyt justified by this.

Huzzah for the useless high end pipe! Of which I don't own enough.


----------



## freestoke (Feb 13, 2011)

MarkC said:


> But if anyone is going to tell me that a standard bulldog smokes so much better than a standard pot when they're both the same friggin' pipe, I'm going to have to see a little more explanation than 'gut feeling'...


The bulldog shape generates soothing ultrasonic vibrations, imperceptible to the human ear, as the smoke column leaves the chamber, while the pot shape doesn't. These vibrations put your pets to sleep so that you can enjoy your pipe in peace, rather than having to let them in and out, having them beg for food, etc., hence the name "bulldog".

I'm trying to get started with some Sugar Barrel, but it may take something a little heftier.


----------



## steinr1 (Oct 22, 2010)

freestoke said:


> The bulldog shape generates soothing ultrasonic vibrations, imperceptible to the human ear, as the smoke column leaves the chamber, while the pot shape doesn't. These vibrations put your pets to sleep so that you can enjoy your pipe in peace, rather than having to let them in and out, having them beg for food, etc., hence the name "bulldog".


Ignore my previous post. This makes the real situation crystal clear. Argument resolved.


----------



## splattttttt (May 17, 2012)

In regards to manufacturing; proper construction is the mecca of all things considered.
Second is materials used.
Third; is personal preference and last is cost.
All that being said, I'd love to try a pipe made out of bog oak made by the many reputable pipe makers of today.
Current pipe makers today benefit from much better tooling IMO. And thus are able to produce a better performing pipe.


----------



## MarkC (Jul 4, 2009)

steinr1 said:


> However, empirically, there are differences in how a Pot smokes in comparison to a Bulldog. Bowl height to width ratio...


Well, the reason I chose those two is that, in mine, the ratio is the same.


----------



## steinr1 (Oct 22, 2010)

MarkC said:


> Well, the reason I chose those two is that, in mine, the ratio is the same.


...not on the ones I peered at before posting. The Pot had a very noticabley wider bowl in relation to its height compared to the Bulldog. "Standard" shapes aren't always standard. The point you make does stand. Any difference might be would only be due to the amount and distribution of the wood involved. Anything else is in the mind of the smoker.

There is nothing magical about a pipe that smokes particularly well. High quality material and precise, correct design and construction are "all" that is needed. Shape and size will influence the suitability of a pipe for a particular tobacco in the hands of a particular smoker. Anything else tends to be a matter of personal preference. What you pay for in high end pipes is better material, more care, skill and complexity in manufacture, better finish, and, in many cases exclusivity and rarety. Although the last few don't make a pipe better as a smoking tool, they do add to the pleasure and that has a value.

The overall answer I give to the thread is still "Yes, high end pipes are worth it."


----------



## Jeff10236 (Nov 21, 2010)

Need help ASAP...

I have my eye out for a higher end English pipe. I already have two Italians. However, I have always loved the Hawkbill shape and my Radice is a pretty darned nice pipe. I haven't quite seen the English that has motivated me to spend that kind of money yet (not quite true, a few times I've seen the "perfect" Ashtons, Northern Briar, etc. but didn't have the money at the time). There are two near perfect estate Radice Hawkbills I can get at reasonable prices right now. Since they are both online, and one is on Ebay, they can disappear quite quickly. However, with my luck, if I spend the money on one of those Radices now, sometime in the next couple days the "perfect" English higher end pipe will appear.

So, talk me into getting one of the hawkbills, or talk me into waiting on the English. Right now, the back and forth is killing me :clock:


----------



## Jeff10236 (Nov 21, 2010)

Too late to edit, but it is down to one Hawkbill...I got distracted and missed the end of the Ebay auction...and only $100.26 too. Oh well, there will be other Hawkbills (they seem to go through periods where the only ones I see are over $300 for many months on end, when I see them at all, followed by weeks or months where it isn't uncommon to see a few at reasonable prices). I don't like the other Hawkbill as much.

So, back to searching for the "perfect" higher end English pipe. For me right now, that is probably a bulldog, but possibly an apple, prince, bent brandy or bent billiard, and preferably with a Cumberland/brindle stem. Smooth or rusticated if a bulldog, smooth or sandblasted in the other shapes. Preferably under $200 for an estate pipe, and certainly no more than $250-300 for a new pipe. Top choices (but open to other brands) are: Ashton, Northern Briar and Ferndown.


----------



## Jeff10236 (Nov 21, 2010)

This is a bit more than I can comfortably spend...Please, talk me out of it...

Ashton Sovereign Bulldog (XX) Pipes at Smoking Pipes .com

I really like that pipe, but I don't want to spend that much.


----------



## steinr1 (Oct 22, 2010)

Jeff10236 said:


> Too late to edit, but it is down to one Hawkbill...I got distracted and missed the end of the Ebay auction...and only $100.26 too. Oh well, there will be other Hawkbills (they seem to go through periods where the only ones I see are over $300 for many months on end, when I see them at all, followed by weeks or months where it isn't uncommon to see a few at reasonable prices). I don't like the other Hawkbill as much.
> 
> So, back to searching for the "perfect" higher end English pipe. For me right now, that is probably a bulldog, but possibly an apple, prince, bent brandy or bent billiard, and preferably with a Cumberland/brindle stem. Smooth or rusticated if a bulldog, smooth or sandblasted in the other shapes. Preferably under $200 for an estate pipe, and certainly no more than $250-300 for a new pipe. Top choices (but open to other brands) are: Ashton, Northern Briar and Ferndown.


For me (and many others), there is but one choice for a high end English pipe. Barling's Make. Specifically, one of the "Ye Olde Wood" variants.

These are traditional English style pipes of absolutley superb construction and made of the finest briar available. They are as close to a guaranteed perfect smoking device that you can get. I've got a few (none of the desired Ye Olde Wood, just cooking models, and all are faultless. Production went out of family hands in about 1962, so Estate only, obviously. Unsmoked pipes turn up quite regularly, but they go for telephone numbers.

Supply of these is quite good in the US, better than in the UK, and a really good example can be had for a couple of hundred dollars (I've paid much less than that - an S-M [about Dunghill Size 1 or 2] sandblast Zulu was about 25 dollars delivered. I was very lucky. "L" or "EXEL" is a more normal size, but price can be size related.) I'm handicapped by the UK import regulations or I would have a much lighter wallet. I'd strongly avise having a look at the information floating around on these superb pipes. Nothing wrong with a really good standard Billiard...

(Be aware that some pipes advertised as "Pre-transition", i.e. Family era, may not be pukka. I've seen too many post-transition pipes - easily identified by the marks - listed incorrectly. Post-transition pipes are worth a fraction of the real deal, but prices for these are also quite high by association. They ain't worth it.)


----------



## Jeff10236 (Nov 21, 2010)

steinr1 said:


> For me (and many others), there is but one choice for a high end English pipe. Barling's Make. Specifically, one of the "Ye Olde Wood" variants.
> 
> These are traditional English style pipes of absolutley superb construction and made of the finest briar available. They are as close to a guaranteed perfect smoking device that you can get. I've got a few (none of the desired Ye Olde Wood, just cooking models, and all are faultless...
> 
> ...I'd strongly avise having a look at the information floating around on these superb pipes. Nothing wrong with a really good standard Billiard...


I hear you on the Barlings, and I may consider one. Then again, right now I'm smoking some McClelland Yenidje Highlander out of one of my two Hardcastles (a sandblasted Prince) and I'm reminded how incredible my Hardcastle, Ben Wade, and to a slightly lower degree, my Invicta pipes are. I'm once again reminded of my original theme of this thread: should I really spend the $150-300 on an Ashton, Ferndown, etc. (and on the lower price end it will likely be an estate) when I can get 2-5 Hardcastles, Ben Wades, Parkers, or Invictas for the same price and possibly have money left over for more tobacco? I'm sure I will (when I find the right one), I like nice things, and I certainly appreciate the better quality workmanship and briar on my Radice and Ser Jacopo, but with these $50-100 pipes smoking so nicely (and they look pretty good too), they do make it harder to pull the trigger on the more expensive pipes.


----------



## splattttttt (May 17, 2012)

Question; while a high end pipe may win points on grating due to its construction attributes, does it really make that much difference in how the tobacco tastes?


----------



## MarkC (Jul 4, 2009)

Keeping in mind that my high end is another smokers bottom level, no. Not any more than you may prefer the taste of a particular tobacco in one pipe or another.


----------



## Chris0673 (Aug 20, 2012)

Forgive my newbishness but really what is the difference between this and this? I mean aside from the obvious exterior differences in finish what is the difference between a $300 pipe and a $60 pipe?

Don't get me wrong, that Ashton is beautiful. But what makes it worth that much money?


----------



## freestoke (Feb 13, 2011)

steinr1 said:


> (Be aware that some pipes advertised as "Pre-transition", i.e. Family era, may not be pukka. I've seen too many post-transition pipes - easily identified by the marks - listed incorrectly. Post-transition pipes are worth a fraction of the real deal, but prices for these are also quite high by association. They ain't worth it.)


The real pre-Transition Sasieni's definitely are worth it, though. My old Sasieni's are my favorite pipes, period, and have an interesting history.

My Sasieni Pipe Article | Murder of Ravens


----------



## steinr1 (Oct 22, 2010)

I've taken a (probably not very consistent - this is the internet, you can't expect anyone to keep to a single viewpoint) stance on occasion about the "Pipe smoking - Habit or Hobby" question. When I first started smoking a pipe, it was 99% habit and 1% hobby (well, maybe a fair amount of student affectation to add to the 1% hobby...) Now it's probably at least as much hobby as habit. Many here have protested that they aren't addicted to nicotine (though I doubt this) and stated "It's a hobby". When I just used a pipe to get my nicotine fix, I smoked an inexpensive Alco and a succession of basket pipes. I now smoke much more expensive pipes. I could easily have bought one much more expensive pipe if I had a mind to, but that wasn't important to me in the day. It was just a smoking habit. Now the hobby element (and the ability to view it as such is budget related - I'm still as addicted as ever) has changed my attitude and I try to get the best quality pipes I can afford (within reason...) They probably don't smoke very much better than my old Alco, but they definitely smoke a whole lot better than some of the basket pipes I had. But mostly, I get a kick out of them.

I find it difficult to square the Hobby View with a reluctance to see "Premium Pipes" as being worth it on this basis at the very least. 

I freely admit that I'm no expert on golf. But I know enough about the physics involved to be pretty certain that a cheapo set of clubs will probably give much the same service as a professional set in the a hands of an Amateur (in its stricty meaning) . You may need to be a bit lucky in getting a set with the face of the club finished perfectly (if this affects things...) - as with getting a high end pipe's construction from a basket pipe - and perhaps the better set will be lighter (or heavier - delete as appropriate for the better set) - as with a high end pipe's premium briar in an "anything will do" basket model. But for a hobby golfer (or pipe smoker), what of it? How much better are the doublessly more expensive set of clubs than the basic set - for a non professional? There are a great number of golfers on the forum. Does everyone take the line that expensive clubs are "simply not worth it"? As opposed to "I simply can't afford them". I suspect that most will at least covet a very expensive set of clubs. How would that enhance their golf hobby? Probably very little, if anything, in terms of performance. But in terms of enjoyment? I'll warrant that the keen amateur golfer would get a kick out of a professional set of clubs. And that in itself would make them "worth it" for them.

I contend that this is the same for pipes. You may be lucky and get as good a smoker from a basket as from Dunhill. But a Dunhill it simply ain't and many will hanker after one regardless. The Dunhill almost certainly won't be a bad smoking instrument and probably will be a really good one. But the overall experience goes far beyond that. And that's worth my money. (Substitute "Barling's Make" for "Dunhill".)


----------



## pipinho (Aug 27, 2011)

Worth it? If it is within your means and you enjoy it then it is.


----------



## steinr1 (Oct 22, 2010)

pipinho said:


> Worth it? If it is within your means and you enjoy it then it is.


I think that perhaps the measure of the passion that some have for their hobbies is when they purchase something that from a budget point of view makes no sense at all.

I have an acquantance who bought an 1899 De Dion Bouton engined Beason Tricycle when he could in no way afford it. He lived in a garage with it to cut down on cost and cut everything else to a bare minimum (including food) to be able to afford the restoration it desperately needed. I thought he was mad, but for him, the sacrifices were definitely worth it.


----------



## pipinho (Aug 27, 2011)

steinr1 said:


> I think that perhaps the measure of the passion that some have for their hobbies is when they purchase something that from a budget point of view makes no sense at all.
> 
> I have an acquantance who bought an 1899 De Dion Bouton engined Beason Tricycle when he could in no way afford it. He lived in a garage with it to cut down on cost and cut everything else to a bare minimum (including food) to be able to afford the restoration it desperately needed. I thought he was mad, but for him, the sacrifices were definitely worth it.


but the end of the day he could afford it, im talking about people who end up being in debt,family friction, job friction for "hobby obsessions"


----------



## freestoke (Feb 13, 2011)

steinr1 said:


> I freely admit that I'm no expert on golf. But I know enough about the physics involved to be pretty certain that a cheapo set of clubs will probably give much the same service as a professional set in the a hands of an Amateur (in its stricty meaning) . You may need to be a bit lucky in getting a set with the face of the club finished perfectly (if this affects things...) - as with getting a high end pipe's construction from a basket pipe - and perhaps the better set will be lighter (or heavier - delete as appropriate for the better set) - as with a high end pipe's premium briar in an "anything will do" basket model. But for a hobby golfer (or pipe smoker), what of it? How much better are the doublessly more expensive set of clubs than the basic set - for a non professional? There are a great number of golfers on the forum. Does everyone take the line that expensive clubs are "simply not worth it"? As opposed to "I simply can't afford them". I suspect that most will at least covet a very expensive set of clubs. How would that enhance their golf hobby? Probably very little, if anything, in terms of performance. But in terms of enjoyment? I'll warrant that the keen amateur golfer would get a kick out of a professional set of clubs. And that in itself would make them "worth it" for them.


I have struggled mightily with this analogy, but the golf club is far, far more complex than a pipe and I have been forced to delete in excess of 500 words in this post as hopelessly arcane meanderings in my efforts to shore up your impressions, impressions which I find largely correct. I will limit myself to the observation that one can buy a driver which costs over $3000, which is simply a driver, not an antique or one owned by Clint Eastwood or something -- just a normal driver. A serious golfer would never use one of these and no pro does, although they obviously could afford a new one every week. New drivers exactly like those played by touring professionals can be had for something like $600. Last year's model, "unsmoked" will cost less than half that and play exactly the same. No one with a handicap over 5 will be able to tell the difference in play between a driver made this year, last year, or 10 years ago. Even then, it won't matter very much in what you shoot.

A first line golf club is more like a Dr. Grabow than a Radice, though. They're all "factory pipes". Personalized club making went out of fashion something like 50 years ago. Your analogy would have been very much on mark in 1960, however.

In golf, expensive clubs (aka, this year's model), are definitely, positively, absolutely, not worth it, unless you have your name on your bag, at which point they're free anyhow.


----------



## MarkC (Jul 4, 2009)

steinr1 said:


> Many here have protested that they aren't addicted to nicotine (though I doubt this) and stated "It's a hobby".


You may doubt it, but the problem is in your head, not in my stating that I'm not addicted. I've been addicted to nicotine before; I smoked cigs for about twenty years before I managed to quit. I know what withdrawal symptoms feel like. When I can put down my pipe and not touch it for a few days when I feel like it, with no symptoms whatsoever, I know I'm not addicted. But on to the more important part of your post.

I've been curious about the reaction that high end pipes get on this forum as well. We seem to have people here that don't mind blowing several hundred dollars on a box of cigars that will last for twenty-five smokes who think spending the same amount on a pipe that will last forever is ridiculous. I think that's largely explained by the fact that the pipe section here is heavily skewed towards newer pipers; when you've just started and have a couple of cobs and a Dr. Grabow, it's hard to see the logic in blowing $500 on a pipe. On the other hand, if you've been smoking a pipe for twenty years and have a hundred pipes in various racks, why would the thought of buying another Dr. Grabow appeal to you? Eventually, in any hobby, people tend to drift away from quantity towards quality if they stick with it long enough.


----------



## MarkC (Jul 4, 2009)

Chris0673 said:


> Forgive my newbishness but really what is the difference between this and this? I mean aside from the obvious exterior differences in finish what is the difference between a $300 pipe and a $60 pipe?
> 
> Don't get me wrong, that Ashton is beautiful. But what makes it worth that much money?


Okay, I can't answer that one; I have no experiences with Ashton pipes. So, instead, let me compare two pipes I do know, a (at the time) $170 Cavicchi rusticated billiard to a (again, at the time) $52 EX Baronet bent billiard, from the same line as your second example.

1. The appearance: both pipes are rusticated, however the Cavicchi shows an attention to detail that blows the Savinelli away. A polished rim full of birds eye, nice rough rustication, a stem that matches up perfectly, and a beautiful polish over the entire pipe. The Baronet is nice, and it's close. There's nothing here to complain about from a $52 pipe; it's great. But next to the Cavicchi, it is obviously the cheaper pipe.

2. The performance: The basic difference between these two pipes is relights. The Baronet will go out quickly if neglected, and occasionally when not neglected. I mean sometimes you just have to look at it funny. With the Cavicchi, if the idea of smoking a bowl with no relights is something important to you (and I guess to some people it is), this is your pipe. Get distracted by few posts on Puff? Check first-you probably don't need to reach for your lighter. In other words, it's an easier smoke.

My feeling on this whole thing is, if you have less than a week's worth of pipes, stick to getting that basic rotation filled. Buy the Stanwell, or Baronet EX or whatever. Once you're not worried about over-smoking your pipes (which was a silly fear in the first place), try something a little higher in the chain and see what you think.


----------



## pipinho (Aug 27, 2011)

i was at my local tobbaconist the other day and complimented the elderly gentleman working there on his dunhill. We started talking about pipe prices and he was shocked that what dunhill was charging these days. Mind you, he said that dunhills were always expensive and of great quality, but he also said that for what they charge now that he won't be buying anymore. IMHO the high end pipes boom is due to pipemakers becomming "craftsmen" of "luxury goods" rather than simple producers.


----------



## steinr1 (Oct 22, 2010)

MarkC said:


> You may doubt it, but the problem is in your head, not in my stating that I'm not addicted. I've been addicted to nicotine before; I smoked cigs for about twenty years before I managed to quit. I know what withdrawal symptoms feel like. When I can put down my pipe and not touch it for a few days when I feel like it, with no symptoms whatsoever, I know I'm not addicted. But on to the more important part of your post.
> 
> I've been curious about the reaction that high end pipes get on this forum as well. We seem to have people here that don't mind blowing several hundred dollars on a box of cigars that will last for twenty-five smokes who think spending the same amount on a pipe that will last forever is ridiculous. I think that's largely explained by the fact that the pipe section here is heavily skewed towards newer pipers; when you've just started and have a couple of cobs and a Dr. Grabow, it's hard to see the logic in blowing $500 on a pipe. On the other hand, if you've been smoking a pipe for twenty years and have a hundred pipes in various racks, why would the thought of buying another Dr. Grabow appeal to you? Eventually, in any hobby, people tend to drift away from quantity towards quality if they stick with it long enough.


I won't argue (very much) on your addiction point. I sometimes simply don't smoke a pipe or take snuff for days on end - two weeks fairly recently - and don't really miss it or get to Jonesing. But I do think that nicotine (or more likely the act of smoking in itself) is more insidious than that. The acute withdrawal symptoms are quite short lived, a few days at most. But most people return to smoking within weeks of "giving up". Addiction? Perhaps. I gave up all forms of tobacco for maybe 8 years. When I started again on cigars it was as if I'd never left. People say that once an addict, always an addict I feel there is much truth in that. Please don't take me for a lurking Health Nazi; nothing could be further from the truth.

I'm with you 100% on the strangeness that makes people reluctant to dig deep for a pipe when expensive cigars are bought with gay abandon.


----------



## pipinho (Aug 27, 2011)

I think cigars are not seen as the same as pipes because its what being consumed instead a vessel of consumption. A bad but simple analogy would be wine and wine glasses, cigar smokers see pipes as being like wine glasses and can't understand why we spend money on glasses instead of wines.


----------



## freestoke (Feb 13, 2011)

steinr1 said:


> ...But most people return to smoking within weeks of "giving up". Addiction? Perhaps. I gave up all forms of tobacco for maybe 8 years. When I started again on cigars it was as if I'd never left. People say that once an addict, always an addict I feel there is much truth in that. Please don't take me for a lurking Health Nazi; nothing could be further from the truth.


I studied this question to some depth in my years taking a BS in physiological psychology (as opposed to an "arts" degree in what most people think of, when they think of "psychologist"). The chemical side of dependency does not seem to me as strong as the societal and social habits surrounding any given addiction. It's often the ritual/habit that moves us to action as much as the substance. As Plato observed, "Everything is habit." (His philosophical point being, that if you fill your life with good habits, there will be no time for bad ones. Of course, other Greek philosophers, say Aristippus, didn't see any real problem with bad habits. I'm going with Aristippus, personally.)


----------



## MarkC (Jul 4, 2009)

steinr1 said:


> I won't argue (very much) on your addiction point. I sometimes simply don't smoke a pipe or take snuff for days on end - two weeks fairly recently - and don't really miss it or get to Jonesing. But I do think that nicotine (or more likely the act of smoking in itself) is more insidious than that. The acute withdrawal symptoms are quite short lived, a few days at most. But most people return to smoking within weeks of "giving up". Addiction? Perhaps. I gave up all forms of tobacco for maybe 8 years. When I started again on cigars it was as if I'd never left. People say that once an addict, always an addict I feel there is much truth in that. Please don't take me for a lurking Health Nazi; nothing could be further from the truth.


Well, if we're dealing with the psychological side, I'm sure that it would be argued that the fact that I'm smoking again shows that it's true, but I'm just not modern enough to go along with the "everything's an addiction" line. If I _am_ addicted to nicotine, it's certainly much farther down the list than a medium rare NY strip and a baked potato.

I wish I hadn't written that; the grocery store is already closed...


----------



## splattttttt (May 17, 2012)

Nicotine can certainly absorb through the mucous membrane. Not sure if that is fact... But pipe smoking has been a useful vice for me, in that it has worked wonders at curbing my cigarette consumption. Of which I find to be much more harmful than smoking pipes.


----------



## MarkC (Jul 4, 2009)

Oh, there's no doubt I'm getting nicotine; let me smoke a Gawith, Hoggarth rope on an empty stomach and it's obvious. But I'm not addicted the way I was twenty years ago with cigarettes, unable to go longer than an hour without a fix (okay, three hours when asleep) and basically unable to function normally without the nicotine.


----------



## MarkC (Jul 4, 2009)

Oh, there's no doubt I'm getting nicotine; let me smoke a Gawith, Hoggarth rope on an empty stomach and it's obvious. But I'm not addicted the way I was twenty years ago with cigarettes, unable to go longer than an hour without a fix (okay, three hours when asleep) and basically unable to function normally without the nicotine. 


Sorry about the derailment, Jeff!


----------



## Jeff10236 (Nov 21, 2010)

OK, first on the "if you don't buy the most expensive it isn't really a hobby, just an addiction" theme (a paraphrase, not a direct quote, so maybe I shouldn't have put it in quotes), maybe that is how some define hobby, but not everyone. There are plenty of other factors that go into whether something is a hobby, collection or whatever other than cost. A guy may be able to afford the most expensive BMW, Harley CVO or Indian but choose to buy a Honda or Suzuki, and it doesn't diminish the fun of the motorcycle hobby for them. I have some nice tents, but I have never gone into the over $300 range (and there are plenty of tents in that range), it doesn't make camping any less of a hobby for me. If I sold several of my guns I'm sure I could buy a $2000+ Les Baer 1911 or Springfield M1A, but I'm quite happy with my SIGs, S&Ws, and even Taurus handguns and my sub-$1K rifles and it doesn't make gun collecting and shooting any less of a hobby. I used to drive a used lower end BMW (325i) that was already 4 years old when I bought it, my enjoyment wasn't diminished by the fact that I didn't pay 2-3 times as much for a new or top of the line BMW or Mercedes. Someone isn't less of a car enthusiast for buying a Miata instead of a Porsche. History, different styles, personal satisfaction, personal finances, and any number of other criteria can go into why someone collects particular examples of any hobby over others.

I am a teacher and thus my budget is somewhat limited. I do have a couple higher end pipes. At the time I posted this question I had one Radice, one Ser Jacopo, and one Peterson Sherlock Holmes (the Sherlock Holmes series is priced with the cheaper high end pipes, so I guess it may be in that category). I love those pipes, but I also get great satisfaction out of my mid-line Petersons, Hardcastles, Ben Wade, Karl Eriks, and Savinellis. They smoke well, and many of them look quite good (though it is true the workmanship isn't the same as the Radice or Ser Jacopos I own). As for the hobby/collection status v. "just a habit", I have far more shapes, sizes and styles of pipes to match different moods (and variety matters to me) than I ever could if I spent the same amount of money on higher end pipes only. The question was to get other people's opinions on cost to value issues. I'm still undecided if the higher end pipes are better enough to be worth it.

As for the "addiction" theme...I quit cigarettes in my mid-20's. Since then, I was not addicted (until possibly recently). I would sometimes smoke my pipes or cigars several times a day every day for weeks, and then at other times I would go weeks without touching them with no ill effects. I've gone as long as 3-6 months without more than a couple smokes. Though, over the past couple years, and especially the past 6 months or so, I have been smoking my pipes often enough (usually several times a day) that I definitely have found myself craving my pipe or a specific tobacco if I go too long without a smoke. So, it is very possible that I am again addicted to nicotine. Still doesn't stop the hobby end for me (I have no interest in a quick nicotine delivery system like cigarettes or the new electronic cigarettes)- I'm still drawn to the collection and maintenance of my pipes and cigars.

As for my original question, I did not yet buy a higher end English pipe. I did go to a tobacco store yesterday and gave an estate Dunhill and a couple higher end Italian pipes they had a close look. I came home with an interesting Ser Jacopo Calibash/Cutty hybrid that at first glace appears to be a smooth pipe, but actually has an unusual style of rustication. The extreme angle of the bowl does make it interesting to smoke and may take some getting used to, but it smokes very well (I started the break in with a half bowl of SG Chocolate Flake). So, I have picked up another higher end Italian pipe, but I am still on the look out for a higher end English pipe.


----------



## steinr1 (Oct 22, 2010)

Jeff10236 said:


> OK, first on the "if you don't buy the most expensive it isn't really a hobby, just an addiction" theme...


I sense that behind things, we are somewhat in agreement. The question isn't whether you can afford a very expensive thing or not. It's whether you lust afer it. That's what, for me, defines the enthusiast. Few take on a hobby with the veiw that they will buy below their personal budget for the hell of it - at least after the initial "I wonder if I like this" period. The fact that you know the prices of the high end rifles makes me think that you've perhaps considered them and if budget were really no issue, those rifles too would be in your rack. Even though it won't (necessarily) shoot any harder or straighter. Budget is indeed key. I'm a vintage motorcycle enthusiast. I'd dearly love to have a Vincent Black Shadow. But I can't. The prices for these are way beyond my budget. But I still would get one in a heartbeat if I didn't need to justify the expense. There are many examples of high price for the sake of it, but I'm certainly not promoting a pipe with a heavy gold band as being intrinsically "better" than one without. (Just struck me that tour T-shirts are a great example where utility is secondary to the overall experience. A plain shirt will cover your nakedness just as well as a Rolling Stones (TM) branded one. And probably will be better quality. Are all those fans that buy them idiots? Who isn't an idiot in the name of their "hobby" on occasion?)



> As for the "addiction" theme...


Addictions are complicated. Jonesing for nicotine simply isn't strong or long lasting enough to explain "I've tried to give up smoking and I can't." We get addicted to the overall act of smoking for a great variety of reasons and I'd say that the physical is probably one of the least valid. Heroine addicts sometimes inject water when they have nothing else. I don't deny that many smokers have no real physical addiction and so by that measure are not "addicts". But recidivism is very high after any physical addiction is long gone. Weeks, months or years. Once a smoker, always a smoker. Those who give up drink, drugs or smoking are all equally one shot, fix or puff away from their "problem". Oddly, as the much hated smoker, we are probaly given the most leeway in this by the general public. Few would say that the occasional hit of opiates for an "ex-addict" is just fine. Ex-alcoholics must NEVER drink. But the occasional smoke for an ex-smoker? Probably won't attract the same lack of approbation.



> As for my original question, I did not yet buy a higher end English pipe...


I'll amend my original answer (actually, I'll take the opposite view).

For a pipe smoker with an "Average Joe" budget (which includes me, sadly), high end pipes are simply not worth the money. A carefully selected pipe of moderate price is just as good. Artisan pipes in particular are poor value. They trade on name, uniqueness of design and excusivity. None of which add to the actual smoking experience.

But I'll still get a kick out of the few Barling's Make pipes I have and hope for a lottery win (unlikely as I've never played) so that I can affort my Vincent. Maybe a Black Knight.


----------



## freestoke (Feb 13, 2011)

"As for the "addiction" theme..." I'd add that the word "addiction" itself has suffered a rather odd redefinition, even "officially", to include many activities we once would never classify as addictions, for instance, persistent uncontrollable urges for gambling and sex. One cannot become addicted to gambling or sex according to the definition I learned in college, which was the medical definition at the time. (And that's medical definition, not psychological witchcraft definition.) Nicotine would barely fit the low rung of that scale, in there with caffeine and cocaine as substances with low addictive action. Of the three, cocaine is probably the least addictive, since addiction requires measurable physical withdrawal symptoms, and cocaine has almost none. Heavy duty addictive substances are things like opiates, alcohol and barbiturates. The redefinition of "addiction" was needed for political and commercial purposes.


----------



## Jeff10236 (Nov 21, 2010)

steinr1 said:


> I sense that behind things, we are somewhat in agreement. The question isn't whether you can afford a very expensive thing or not. It's whether you lust afer it. That's what, for me, defines the enthusiast.


I figured that what you meant was more nuanced that it seemed at first blush. I still don't totally agree, unless we slightly modify your statement. While I like several aspects of my hobbies, and I do lust after some more expensive examples of each, there are those who don't who are definitely hobbyists. Take guns, some people like the historical value and have no desire for the $2000 M1a or Anschutz. It wasn't too long ago that many old mil-surp rifles could be had for under $100, and it was within the last decade that many collectable models could be had in the $200-300 range. An entire collection of WWI and WWII rifles could be had for the price of one or two M1a's. Different things attract different people. Some pipe smokers might love their first Dr. Grabow so much that they want one of each, and then start going after examples from different times in the company's history (see the Dr. Grabow pipe forum for examples of people who are quite obsessed over Dr. Grabow). Actually, I was going to say that I would amend your statement from price based to some kind of collectable quality based "lust", but now that I think about it, "obsessing" over some aspect of the hobby/collection would probably better define many of us (me included). :heh:



> Addictions are complicated. Jonesing for nicotine simply isn't strong or long lasting enough to explain "I've tried to give up smoking and I can't." We get addicted to the overall act of smoking for a great variety of reasons and I'd say that the physical is probably one of the least valid...


I got my bachelors degree in psychology, once planned on becoming a psychologist, and I once worked in a psychiatric hospital. I would agree that addiction is much more than just the physical addiction (I've seen it). Though, at least within the psychiatric/psychological/medical community the definition of the word has long ago changed to include psychological addiction (as freestoke eloquently put it, though I take issue with the "psychological witchcraft" part  ). Many aspects of what hooks us is habit, and at a higher level of addiction a psychological/emotional craving which can be tougher to fight than any physical dependence.



> I'll amend my original answer (actually, I'll take the opposite view).
> 
> For a pipe smoker with an "Average Joe" budget (which includes me, sadly), high end pipes are simply not worth the money. A carefully selected pipe of moderate price is just as good. Artisan pipes in particular are poor value. They trade on name, uniqueness of design and excusivity. None of which add to the actual smoking experience.


Like I say, I am on the fence on this issue. Though, having bought 3-4 higher end pipes (depending upon how you define the more expensive Peterson Sherlock Holmes series), one of which I bought a couple days ago, I guess personally I'm not that much on the fence. I am on the fence as to whether higher end pipes are objectively or across the board worth the extra expense. With the quality and enjoyment I get out of my Hardcastles, Savinellis, and other mid-line pipes, I'm not so sure. For example, last night I smoked my Invicta Canadian and my older Ser Jacopo back to back. Both were great smokes. The Ser Jacopo was a little better, and the workmanship, feel and looks are definitely a lot better. However, the Invicta was a terrific smoke and it is a nice pipe so I'm not 100% sold that the Ser Jacopo is $100-150 better (which is enough to buy two more Invictas or Hardcastles).

As for the artisan pipes, I'm not sure I'm ever going to go with one of the $1000+ artisan pipes. I can see getting a fully handmade pipe, and I can see buying a less expensive artisan pipe from a newer carver (where they are still somewhat affordable), but never those priced as works of art. However, as a teacher, I do not have my sights set on the $500-1000+ end of higher end pipes, but rather the $170-300 more affordable end of high-end pipes (i.e. Northern Briar, Ashton, Ser Jacopo, some cheaper and estate Dunhill, etc.). I have a few already, and I probably will buy a few more. However, it took 20 years of pipe smoking to get here (until about 2 years ago my most expensive pipes were ~$100 Petersons and two from Karl Erik), and I'm never going to fill my collection with them. My everyday pipes will continue to be from makers such as Peterson, Savinelli, Hardcastle, Ben Wade, etc.


----------



## freestoke (Feb 13, 2011)

"Costly thy pipes as thy purse can buy, but not expressed in fancy; rich not gaudy; for the pipe oft proclaims the man." -- William Smokespeare


----------



## steinr1 (Oct 22, 2010)

freestoke said:


> "As for the "addiction" theme..."


I think the difference here is between addiction and physiological dependence. Many of the "modern addictions" have little or no element of dependence. There are no adverse physical symptoms of withdrawal. I feel this makes little difference if harm is caused by these addictions. An addiction is very often to a mood altering activity (or maybe the mood altering chemicals produced naturally by our bodies in response to the activty) rather than any ingested substance. Nicotine's potential for physical dependence is low; smoking is highly addictive. (When I gave up cigarettes, I dangled a one out of my mouth almost continuously for about a year; I just didn't light it.)

I'm addicted to smoking a pipe (and snuff, my various collection madnesses, and, to a lesser extent these days, cigars). I don't think it serves our purpose to deny this. I believe I could stop anytime, but I don't. My addictions cause little harm to me or the outside world. Some, like gambling, where there is definitely no physical dependence, can destroy lifes and damage those around the "addict". I'm happy with my (relatively) harmless addictions.

On Jeff's points, again, I pretty much agree. However, I think that the point about some collectors not being interested in ALL high end variants of what what would seem to many to be the same genre is to miss the irrational nature of collecting. Collecting is a form of madness to the outsider. I collect Ropp pipes. Pretty ordinary factory pipes and even the best hardly warrant the soubriquet "High end". But show me a mint, unused La Roppitsch and I'd probably pay Dunhill prices. This is clearly irrational. The gun collector not being interested in certain weapons just demonstrates the narrowness of their particular madness.

Or perhaps re-reading the post, the point was indeed made, particularly with reference to those whose particular madness is for Dr Grabow pipes... Cost isn't the issue; the Collection is whart matters.

Still gets us no nearer to answer the real question of whether high end pipes are "better" and "worth it". Still, the thrust and parry of this debate is most diverting. Mulled it over while smoking that near full bowl of Rich Dark Flake in that Ropp Altesse. Not as good a smoke as that "high end" Barling's Make I use more often for that blend...


----------



## freestoke (Feb 13, 2011)

"No, I will order no more. In such a night
To log me out? Browse on; I will click.
In such a night as this? O Sasieni, Dunhill!
Your old estates, whose makers' hearts gave all—
O, that way madness lies; let me shun that;
No more of PAD." -- William Smokespeare


----------



## MarkC (Jul 4, 2009)

Okay, I get the drift. But if psychologists needed a word to describe something they are studying, they should have coined one rather than ruining a perfectly understandable medical term. Any psychologist who thinks a habit is the same thing as an addiction should be injected with opiates every day for a month or so.* Then we'll revisit the issue...

*today's word: hyperbole. I understand satire is hard to get on the net, but apparently hyperbole is as well, so just in case...


----------



## freestoke (Feb 13, 2011)

MarkC said:


> Okay, I get the drift. But if psychologists needed a word to describe something they are studying, they should have coined one rather than ruining a perfectly understandable medical term.


They already had "habituation?" (also the process of becoming desensitized, in a stimulus-response context, but what the hell, right? :lol. The problem with making the distinction between addiction and habituation is that it confused the public. Hard to get them riled up over a bad (or even unpopular) habit, but the word "addiction" summoned up all those scenes from *The Man with the Golden Arm*, so that anybody with a bad habit could be labeled as an addict and either jailed or treated, either of which makes somebody some money. Even keeping people from enjoying their habits makes money, so everybody's happy except the one with the habit. There were a few other terms that applied, but damned if I can remember them. :ask: Been fifty years since I studied this stuff.


----------



## steinr1 (Oct 22, 2010)

MarkC said:


> *today's word: hyperbole. I understand satire is hard to get on the net, but apparently hyperbole is as well, so just in case...


I'm a fan of hyperbole. I use it 'til the cow come home.

(Not entirely happy with this one. But it will have to do. I'm buried under a ton of work.)


----------



## Jeff10236 (Nov 21, 2010)

OK, I need some assistance...

There is Dunhill Bruyere bulldog in my birthyear on Ebay right now. I _love_ the bulldog shape, one of my two or three favorites. Like many who collect as well as smoke pipes, I'd love a birthyear Dunhill. It is more than I want to spend on my higher end pipes ($315 + shipping), so I need assistance. Talk me out of it, talk me into it, or buy it from under me so you remove the temptation .

BTW, if it was a Cumberland I would have already hit "buy it now," I would not have been able to resist this long.

1970 Dunhill Bruyere Oda 837 F T Straight Bulldog Pipe Mint Pfeife Pipa | eBay

Disclaimer, if you see this post in more than a few hours, I may have already succumbed and discussion may be purely academic


----------



## Jeff10236 (Nov 21, 2010)

I placed an offer of $250.

It will still be on the high end of what I want to spend. I'd like to find a pipe in the $150-250 range, but I doubt that will ever happen on a birth year Dunhill, it is rare on any Dunhill, and to find "the right one" at that price isn't going to happen. I figure at $250, either he'll decline altogether, accept and I'll have a pretty good deal and feel more comfortable paying it, or counter-offer and at least I'll pay less than $315. Hmm, I guess there is the slim chance he'll be offended that I offered $65 under his asking price and he'll blacklist me altogether, but that chance is probably pretty slim


----------



## Sniper2075 (Jan 26, 2007)

I was lucky, I just recently picked up my birth year Dunhill on eBay. Mine is 1981, not sure if certain years are harder than others. I would assume the older the harder as pipes can break etc... I paid $140 shipped for a Group 5 Bruyere bent billiard so I think I did ok. Much larger than anything else I have so far. I just couldn't resist, another 1981 unsmoked Dunhill went for more than I could pay.


----------



## Jeff10236 (Nov 21, 2010)

He countered my $250 offer with $295. I posted a question about it (almost word for word post number 55 from this thread) on another forum and someone mentioned 1970 as being one of the worst years for Dunhill. Before that post, I had in my head that if he'd go $260-280 I'd bite and I would have probably countered at $270 or $275. After reading that post (from a well-respected and knowledgeable member who is also a long-time member here so I know him by reputation even though I'm new over there), I'm leaning towards letting it go and going back to my search for a Northern Briars, Ferndown, Ashton, or similar bulldog or prince with a Cumberland/brindle stem.


----------



## Commander Quan (May 6, 2003)

Let it go, and keep an eye out for another. I checked every week, and let many go before I was able to grab my 83 Group 5 for less than $200


----------



## freestoke (Feb 13, 2011)

Jeff10236 said:


> ...someone mentioned 1970 as being one of the worst years for Dunhill.


 Wow, the 43 year olds are screwed, huh? Sucky birthdate Dunhills. I'd guess it's both a curse and a blessing.


----------



## Jeff10236 (Nov 21, 2010)

freestoke said:


> Wow, the 43 year olds are screwed, huh? Sucky birthdate Dunhills. I'd guess it's both a curse and a blessing.


Not screwed, just another reason to hold out until I find a really good deal (or forget the birthdate Dunhill since it seems like a nice thing to have, but is not one of my "holy grails" since I'm not that into Dunhills).

Edit:
Oh, and lets not make me any older than I am...I still have a little over 2 months to 43 :biggrin1:


----------



## Jeff10236 (Nov 21, 2010)

So, on that other forum Mister Moo posted again with some nicer things to say about the 1970 Dunhills. Already, I figured even the worst year for Dunhill won't be a bad pipe. Dunhill may not be worth as much as they sell for, but they are good pipes. There are other brands that interest me more, but I always figured that if I did get a Dunhill it would be a birth year pipe. Bulldogs are in my top 2 or 3 favorite shapes, and often are my absolute favorites (when I'm not on an X shape kick). So, I decided to give it one more shot and counter-offered at $270...

If you check back at the link you will see that the pipe is sold...He accepted my offer, I've paid, it is mine! :banana:

Edit:
Holy crap, with shipping I just paid $279 for a pipe mg:

I guess I'll really get to see the performance of a high end v. good mid-level pipe controlling for as many factors as possible (Dunhill bulldog v. Hardcastle bulldog), but I must say, this pipe better be good!


I can't wait! :woohoo:


----------



## freestoke (Feb 13, 2011)

Just checking on my birth year Dr. Grabow. As it happens, it would be their first run of pipes! :shock:


----------



## Jeff10236 (Nov 21, 2010)

freestoke said:


> Just checking on my birth year Dr. Grabow. As it happens, it would be their first run of pipes! :shock:


Hmm, birth year Dr. Grabow? Sounds like an interesting idea. How many pipe companies give enough info to reliably trace the year of manufacture? Maybe to get away from spending too much money on pipes (since my last two were over $200), it is time to look for birth year pipes from affordable brands and still be able to scratch the collectable/hobby itch (Dr. Grabow, Kaywoodie, Parker...sounds like a start). ipe:

Oh, if your birth year Dr. Grabow is their first year, I guess that puts you a little over 10 years older (or about 10 years younger) than my mom. Linkman era or Sparta era first run


----------



## freestoke (Feb 13, 2011)

I'm too old to be smoking a pipe. :lol: I don't even own a Dr. Grabow. out: I really should get one. Pretty soon I'll be able to buy my birth year with a brand spanking new one! :banana:

Glad you got it though, Jeff! Hope it smokes great for you! :tu


----------



## Jeff10236 (Nov 21, 2010)

Got my Dunhill today, and I'll be emailing him about returning it ASAP. When reaming out the cake they really messed it up. It is out of round, and the wood at the top of the bowl is noticeably thinner than in the heel. In fact, when I put my thumb in the bowl, there is a very pronounced "shoulder" along the base of the bowl about a centimeter or so up. Definitely a disappointment. 

I think I'll just go ahead and order an Ashton or Northern Briars after I get my money back and forget the birth year Dunhill (or at least forget getting an affordable one).


----------



## MarkC (Jul 4, 2009)

Ouch. What a let down.


----------



## Jeff10236 (Nov 21, 2010)

It has been over 24 hours since my email about returning the pipe and I haven't heard anything. So, I have sent another email. Hopefully they are just being a tad slow in checking their emails. I hope this doesn't end up becoming a problem.


----------



## El wedo del milagro (Jul 3, 2012)

I hope so too.

Pipers tend to be good/fun folks, and I hope this all works out well for you.


----------



## Jeff10236 (Nov 21, 2010)

He was just a little delayed. Even though he was in another country, he gave me a local address for the return. I'm a little confused, but whatever (maybe it is the person who is buying it since our deal ended up not working out, or maybe he has a US return agent who happens to be local, I'm not sure).

I am OK with it all now and I'm looking forward to the refund. I recently got two new pipes which are quickly becoming favorites. On another forum we ordered handmade higher end new production Kaywoodies as the POY. I got impatient waiting and spent $170 on a 2010 Zulu Kaywoodie Pipe of the Year, and today my POY for the forum showed up. I am now a _huge_ fan of the current production handmade Kaywoodies (the handmade Kaywoodies are made by Kaywoodie's parent company's CEO, Bill Feuerbach). I may spend the refund on two of the Kaywoodie Pipes of the Year (the 2009 is a bulldog and the 2005 or 2006 is a Rhodesian).

POY from other pipe forum:





2010 Kaywoodie POY (Zulu):


----------



## MarkC (Jul 4, 2009)

That zulu looks sharp!


----------



## Jeff10236 (Nov 21, 2010)

They are both beautiful pipes, with the Zulu being my favorite of the two (funny since until recently I wasn't too into the shape, but this looks and smokes so well I will have to give another Zulu or two a try).


----------



## splattttttt (May 17, 2012)

I have a vintage Kaywoodie Zulu that I found on eBay a while ago that's smooth but with a similar stem. Amnost looks like a Cumberland. They are a great shape and smoke nicely. 
Enjoy yours Jeff. It's beautiful.


----------



## Thirston (Feb 2, 2011)

Both are great looking but that zulu is very cool. Don't give up on the birth-year Dunhill. My birth-year Dunhill bulldog is kind of fun to have. An extravagance (as I'd rather have another Cavicchi or Castello), yes but fun to have. Patience.


----------



## Gigmaster (Jan 12, 2009)

It all depends on why you are buying the pipe. If you just want a good smoke, nothing smokes better, at any price, than a >$10.00 Missouri Meerschaum corn cob pipe. However, if you are looking for something more in the line of artwork, and collect-ability, then yes, upscale pipes are worth it, to you at least. It's like the difference between a Toyota, and a Rolls-Royce. They both get you where you are going, but the Rolls has prestige, and will hold it's value. 

I have invested in many upscale pipes, for my own pleasure, but most of the time, you will see me with a corn cob hanging out of my mouth.


----------

