# Interesting tidbits - Habanos trivia



## Bird-Dog (Oct 16, 2009)

I thought we could use a thread to share interesting tidbits and trivia about Cuban cigars, as well as ask about the minutiae of Habanos lore.

1) My fist is one form the "_ya learn something new everyday_" column...

I've long been aware that the corona was widely considered the prototypical cigar vitola., but I didn't really know why. I guess I just assumed it was the most common size back when the modern Cuban cigar industry was coalescing in the later 1800's and early 1900's. But I ran across what seems to be the underlying reason that coronas are virtually eponymous with cigars, especially Cubans...*
The 42 ring-gauge of the corona is rolled with, or at least allows the use of, three full tobacco leaves.
*​Presumably that would be one each of ligero, seco, and volado. Yet these days HSA calls the petit corona or mareva the fundamental vitola shared across most marcas. Who'da thunk it?

2) Plus one from the "_I always thought so too but it's nice to see confirmed by the organization responsible for producing them_" bucket...

I've been a fan of Montecristos from way back, really my first love when I began exploring Cubans in earnest back in the 1980's and 90's. I mentioned this on another thread, but thought it deserved inclusion here...*
HSA considers the Montecristo profile "to have the benchmark flavour for all other Habanos brands". *​I take that to mean that all Cuban cigars are variations on a theme epitomized by Montecristos (and safe to say, it's the Línea Clásica they're talking about).

Got any more to share?


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## Fusion (Apr 5, 2017)

The "Cohiba" brand was founded in 1966 only for Fidel Castro and other government officials


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

All Cuban cigars are rolled on the thighs of virgins.
:vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh:

All joking aside great thread on learning new things about the cigars we love so much.
Carry on gents :vs_cool:


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## TexaSmoke (Apr 13, 2018)

I have heard the story that Kennedy bought just over 1,000 Upmanns the day before he signed the embargo.


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## cigaraddict (Dec 24, 2011)

TexaSmoke said:


> I have heard the story that Kennedy bought just over 1,000 Upmanns the day before he signed the embargo.


My favorite cigar story; h. upmann petit Coronas where his favorite cigar (If I remember the story correctly)

The Trinidad line was a diplomatic gift for 20 years before being released as its own brand in the late nineties. It was either a lower quality gift than Cohiba (Fidel's story) or the cream-of-the-crop as a gift (brand/factory manager). Always found that lore cool 

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## Bird-Dog (Oct 16, 2009)

cigaraddict said:


> My favorite cigar story; h. upmann petit Coronas where his favorite cigar (If I remember the story correctly)


From what I've read they were actually Petit Upmanns, a 4.5" x 36 Cadetes. But it seems likely vendors floated the story that they were Petit Coronas when the HUPU's were discontinued (HUPC's are too now, BTW, but just as of last year vs 2002 for the HUPU).

In fact, it's the HU Coronas Junior that's the same size as the old handmade Petit Upmann! There was also a machine-made Petit Upmann, but unlikely that would be JFK's preferred smoke.


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## cigaraddict (Dec 24, 2011)

curmudgeonista said:


> From what I've read they were actually Petit Upmanns, a 4.5" x 36 Cadetes. But it seems likely vendors floated the story that they were Petit Coronas when the HUPU's were discontinued (HUPC's are too now, BTW, but just as of last year vs 2002 for the HUPU).
> 
> In fact, it's the HU Coronas Junior that's the same size as the old handmade Petit Upmann! There was also a machine-made Petit Upmann, but unlikely that would be JFK's preferred smoke.


I can't say they got me to buy more HUPC's but they did get me with the story (wrong version) makes it even more interesting. Thanks for the additional info!

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## Bird-Dog (Oct 16, 2009)

I was reminded of another tidbit by the mention an "RyJ #3" on the Top-5 Budget thread. Needless to say, most people mean the RyJ Romeo No.3 when they reference the RyJ #3. In fact I've seen vendors leave off the second Romeo too. But it points to a bit of interesting, if somewhat convoluted trivia...

There are actually three current Romeo y Juluetas with "No.3" in their commercial name, each an entirely different vitola...

RyJ Cedros de Luxe No.3 - A 5.1" x 42 Mareva presented wrapped in a cedar sleeve
RyJ Exhibicion No.3 - A 5-5/8" x 46 Coronas Gordas
RyJ Romeo No.3 - A 4.6" x 40 Coronitas presented in a tube

And there used to be a fourth, the RyJ Romeo de Luxe No.3. That was a handmade Francicanos presented in a tube like the Romeo No.3 and almost exactly the same size, just one silly millimeter longer. But at the time the regular Romeo No.X's (1, 2, & 3) were machine-made, while the corresponding Romeo de Luxe No.X's (1, 2, & 3) were handmade. In 2002 HSA ceased making machine-made cigars, with some being discontinued and the rest converted to handmade. In the case of the Romeo No.X's, as well as most previously machine-mades in premium marcas, they not only converted to handmades they also went to long filler. And so, the RyJ Romeo de Luxe No.X's were discontinued rather than run two nearly identical lines concurrently or drop the arguably better known Romeo (non-de Luxe) line.

But wait! To further complicate matters, Romeo y Julieta is now on the verge of having five identically sized Mareva/Petit Coronas (both designations sharing the same 5.1" x 42 dimensions) including one, the Cedros de Luxe No.3, that is obviously one of the "#3's"...

RyJ Cedros de Luxe No.3 - A Mareva in cedar sleeve, as mentioned above
RyJ Romeo No.2 - A tubed Petit Corona middle sibling of the "runt of the litter" Romeo No.3 mentioned above
RyJ Petit Corona - A banded Mareva in dress box/25
RyJ Mille Fleurs - A banded Petit Coronas in dress boxes/10 or 25
RyJ Club Kings - A new Mareva to be presented in aluminum 5-packs, part of the new _Linea Retro_ along with close cousin the Partagas Capitols. Technically a 2015 release, but yet to hit the market three years later (already) as far as I know.

On top of this already dizzying array of PC's, there were at least five other PC sized RyJ's made in the past, all of which originated pre-revolution (i.e. sometime prior to 1960). That includes two previous Club Kings, a handmade version and a machine-made, both discontinued in the 1980's, the handmade Plateados de Romeo discontinued in 1988 (and there was a machine-made of the same name, but in a different vitola), the Excepcionales, another machine-made that survived up until the 2002 purge, and the Romeo No.2 de Luxe, a handmade, but discontinued in the purge too, or perhaps more correctly, renamed the Romeo No.2 whilst the machine-made version of that was discontinued..

In fact, all of the Mareva/Petit Coronas mentioned in both current and discontinued lists have pre-revolution origins except the new, not-quite-yet released, Club Kings. Therefore, if you could jump in a time machine and go back to just about the time I smoked my first Cuban in the mid-80's (or land for some considerable time before that), you'd theoretically find no less than a whopping NINE different Romeo y Julietas of exactly the same dimensions! Can't say I ever saw them all at once, or even knew so many existed at the time, though.

But back to the future, it could be argued that the RyJ Petit Coronas and Cedros de Luxe No.3 are of the same coming off the rolling tables, but in two different presentations... and the same said for the Mille Fleurs and Romeo No.2 being twins in different suits of clothes (unconfirmed/conjecture - don't quote me on that). Anyway, hopefully we won't see any of them deleted when the new Club Kings finally arrive. I'm inclined to smoke them all from time to time. As for the new Club Kings, one would hope that the _Linea Retro_ designation promises more than merely another packaging presentation of the existing Marevas. I'd love to think they're intended to truly capture the long-lost flavors of Romeo y Julieta's days gone by! But who knows? (_waiting, waiting, waiting - 2015 seems like a while back, doesn't it!_)

Speaking of RyJ's, did you know Romeo y Julieta used to produce three different Churchills at the same time at one point? But I see your eyes getting droopy. So enough bedtime stories for one night. We'll save the story of the big bad Clemenceau, the handsome Prince of Wales, and ever resilient Mr. Churchill for another time. Good night and sleep tight!


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## GOT14U (May 12, 2017)

wow, the knowledge is something else in here.....Love the history notes! you guys rock!


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## TexaSmoke (Apr 13, 2018)

curmudgeonista said:


> I was reminded of another tidbit by the mention an "RyJ #3" on the Top-5 Budget thread. Needless to say, most people mean the RyJ Romeo No.3 when they reference the RyJ #3. In fact I've seen vendors leave off the second Romeo too. But it points to a bit of interesting, if somewhat convoluted trivia...
> 
> There are actually three current Romeo y Juluetas with "No.3" in their commercial name, each an entirely different vitola...
> 
> ...


That was me that mentioned it, I believe, and I meant the tubo. Thanks for all the other info, as I wasn't aware of all the other variations.


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## Bird-Dog (Oct 16, 2009)

TexaSmoke said:


> That was me that mentioned it, I believe, and I meant the tubo. Thanks for all the other info, as I wasn't aware of all the other variations.


Wasn't trying to call you out. It just reminded me of some trivia. Lot's of people refer to them the same way. It's sort of the default position. If they mean one of the others they typically give the full name, or something like Cedros #3 and Exi3.

And...well... I like delving into RyJ. Lots of material and history there. For some reason, quite a few stateside CC smokers turn their noses up at RyJ. I don't get it myself. Plenty of good cigars in the line. Maybe they just can't separate their feelings about NC RyJ's from CC RyJ's, even though the two have less than zero to do with each other.

Speaking of unrelated NC and CC brands that go by the same name (i.e. all of them), can anyone name the one and only Cuban-made brand that usurped its name from a pre-existing domestic brand instead of the other way around?


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## TexaSmoke (Apr 13, 2018)

No worries, Jack. I didn't feel called out at all. I have enjoyed most of the few RyJ ive tried and look forward to trying more from the marca. 
Not sure of the answer to your trivia, but I'll venture a guess and say Ramon Allones.


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## Bird-Dog (Oct 16, 2009)

TexaSmoke said:


> Not sure of the answer to your trivia, but I'll venture a guess and say Ramon Allones.


Nope, not it. In fact Ramon Allones is one of the oldest of the existing marcas, if not THE oldest. Ramon himself is supposedly responsible for inventing the cigar band way back in the middle of the 19th century.

Hint: It's kind of a trick question. Requires thinking outside the box.


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## GOT14U (May 12, 2017)

curmudgeonista said:


> Wasn't trying to call you out. It just reminded me of some trivia. Lot's of people refer to them the same way. It's sort of the default position. If they mean one of the others they typically give the full name, or something like Cedros #3 and Exi3.
> 
> And...well... I like delving into RyJ. Lots of material and history there. For some reason, quite a few stateside CC smokers turn their noses up at RyJ. I don't get it myself. Plenty of good cigars in the line. Maybe they just can't separate their feelings about NC RyJ's from CC RyJ's, even though the two have less than zero to do with each other.
> 
> Speaking of unrelated NC and CC brands that go by the same name (i.e. all of them), can anyone name the one and only Cuban-made brand that usurped its name from a pre-existing domestic brand instead of the other way around?


Vag? I'm just shooting in the dark. And trying to stay relevant.....but I'm not over on this side.....

Sent from my part of hell!


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## TexaSmoke (Apr 13, 2018)

Well, there's a fun fact I didn't know. This is a great thread for CC information. Glad I'll be watching it. Thanks, Jack.


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## Bird-Dog (Oct 16, 2009)

GOT14U said:


> Vag? I'm just shooting in the dark. And trying to stay relevant.....but I'm not over on this side.....


Mmm... it's possible, but not what I had in mind.

I actually ordered a bundle some inexpensive small cigars as an add-on years back just advertised as generic "Dominican" or "Honduran" or whatever they were (5"x34 or so for something like $5 or $10 a bundle). When they arrived they had red bands that said "Vegueros" on them, not copies of the Cuban bands. It's possible that was in the mid-1990's before the CC marca was launched in 1997. But it's more likely it was afterwards in the early 2000's. Though they were actually good little cigars, being such an insignificant purchase I really can't remember exactly when it was.

On top of that, since "Vegueros" basically translates as "tobacco farmer", not to mention never having heard it mentioned as an NC brand before or since, on those bundle buddies it may have been intended as general comment of the type of cigar more so than a brand name _per se_ (i.e. "farm rolled") and completely unrelated to existence of the CC's regardless of which came first.

So I'm inclined to say, "No, not quite plausible" though it (almost) proves I may not be infallible on the 'one and only' part of the riddle.

Heckuva guess, though!


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## TexaSmoke (Apr 13, 2018)

curmudgeonista said:


> Mmm... it's possible, but not what I had in mind.
> 
> I actually ordered a bundle some inexpensive small cigars as an add-on years back just advertised as generic "Dominican" or "Honduran" or whatever they were (5"x34 or so for something like $5 or $10 a bundle). When they arrived they had red bands that said "Vegueros" on them, not copies of the Cuban bands. It's possible that was in the mid-1990's before the CC marca was launched in 1997. But it's more likely it was afterwards in the early 2000's. Though they were actually good little cigars, being such an insignificant purchase I really can't remember exactly when it was.
> 
> ...


That was my second guess. Only because of the recent re-branding.


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## Bird-Dog (Oct 16, 2009)

curmudgeonista said:


> Speaking of unrelated NC and CC brands that go by the same name (i.e. all of them), can anyone name the one and only Cuban-made brand that usurped its name from a pre-existing domestic brand instead of the other way around?


Okay, reveal time... almost. Let's look at a few other possibles first...

Trinidad - While there is an NC brand of the same name, it's unclear if it launched before or after the 1998 commercial introduction of the Cuban Trinidad, though the NC's use a band that is clearly inspired by the Cuban one. In truth, Cuban Trinidad's date back to 1969, but were produced for nearly 30 years strictly as diplomatic gifts. The name, BTW, does not refer to the island of Trinidad, as in Trinidad and Tobago. Nope, it's the town of La Santísima Trinidad in Cuba, known for tobacco processing. Surprisingly, the town is not near the prime fields of the Vuelta Abajo. It's closer to the Remedios area where the tobacco for Jose L. Piedras is grown. That's not to say the Cuban Trinidad cigars are sourced there, nor made from Remedios tobacco. Quite the opposite. Trinidads are among the finest Cuba cigars made. They were initially made in the El Laguito factory, the famous source of Cohibas. When demand outstripped the capacity of the EL factory, production of Trinidads was established in the Pinar del Rio factory (PDR being the province of the Vuelta Abajo).

Dunhill and/or Davidoff - Well, yes and no on both. While Cuba did make cigars for both under their own labels, and both companies have been around for many, many decades before that. They weren't copies of established brands, they were essentially private label production made just for them. Cuban Davioffs were produced from 1969 thru 1991, and Dunhill CC's from 1982 to 1991. Both are unicorns today. Find either and you're into the high end of collectible aged cigars.

La Corona or Belinda - Maybe were getting closer with these, but still not quite it. Most of you are probably familiar with La Corona Whiffs, a domestic cigarillo that been around a long, long time. I remember smoking those back in maybe the 1970's (?) and certainly the 80's. Since you'll find mention of Cuban La Coronas being "relaunched" in 1989, it might be tempting to think the domestics preceded them. However, La Corona was a pre-revolution brand, purported to be among the most popular too. And they were relaunched in 1989... but that was only after being discontinued in 1978. Unfortunately, that later iteration was strictly as a machine-made brand. I smoke a few in the 1980's and they weren't bad, in fact all of the machine-made Cubans of that era were pretty good for what they were, though certainly not in the same class with finer handmade marcas. Belinda is another brand that was relaunched in 1989, also having an NC counterpart that I think was around before that. But again, Belinda was a popular pre-revolution Cuban brand. Discontinued sometime in the mid-1960's before being brought back in 1989, Belindas disappeared again sometime in the early 2000's for so many years that it was assumed they'd been discontinued again, but they have fairly recently begun to resurface.

And now for the winner... (drum roll please)...

Guantanamera!

Yep, I told you you'd have to think outside the box! I also told you earlier that HSA (Habanos S.A.) no longer makes machine made cigars, BUT I didn't say Cuba doesn't! All Cuban machine-made cigars are produced by ICT (Internacional Cubana de Tabacos, a separate entity from HSA), at least all machine-made Cubans for expert. I'm 100% sure whether the "peso cigars" produced for local consumption in Cuba are machine-made or not, or whether ICT is involved in those, though I suspect not since the "pesos" I've had were stamped with Tabacalera on the bundles, meaning the organization responsible for overseeing tobacco growing in Cuba may have direct oversight of those... but then, that's subject for another discussion. Anyway, ICT's products include Guantanmera, Belinda (Oh, did I not mention Belindas are machine-made? Oops!), and all of the mini, club, and purito cigarillos offered in some of the mainstream HSA marcas.

But, yes, it it's true, Miami based cigar firm Guantanamera Cigars Company first established the brand in 1997. The Cuban brand produced by ICT didn't appear until 2002. Though Cuban Guantanameras are sold throughout the rest of the world, after much legal wrangling and several court appeals, the Guantanamera Cigars Company hold the sole rights to the trademark in the uS for cigars.

And why "Guantanamera"? The title (and hook) of a song closely associated with Cuba, it refers to a woman from Guantanamo and was first popularized as early as 1929. Here in America we know it best from, or at least because of, The Sandpipers 1966 recording.


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## haegejc (Oct 2, 2018)

Wow. I feel a bit lacking in CC knowledge Thank you so much for all of your information. I find the whole CC history fascinating. 


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## Pag#11 (Apr 14, 2018)

Suprised no one has mentioned the Diplomaticos #2 and Montecristo #2 similarities. Weren't they once thought of as being the same cigar but one was ...was ...something. brain isn't firing fully yet only been up for 30 mins... 
To be continued when the caffeine opens up some more brain files in my head.

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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

Pag#11 said:


> Suprised no one has mentioned the Diplomaticos #2 and Montecristo #2 similarities. Weren't they once thought of as being the same cigar but one was ...was ...something. brain isn't firing fully yet only been up for 30 mins...
> To be continued when the caffeine opens up some more brain files in my head.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk


The Dip was in fact marketed as a cheaper version of the Montie#2. Anyone who has smoked both knows that nothing could be further from the truth. I have not seen that slogan used in quite some time. Good memory there @Pag#11 !:vs_cool:


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## Bird-Dog (Oct 16, 2009)

I just picked up a box of H. Upmann Regalias. That's a 5.1"x42 petit corona, which is exactly the same size as the now-discontinued H.Upmann Petit Coronas mareva. I find it odd that HSA chose to delete the HUPC and keep the Regalias. Of course, I'm hoping that over time the Regalias will prove itself to be a worthy substitute. I've only had one box of them before and, though a perfectly nice everyday sort of smoke, they were not nearly as smooth and refined as the HUPC's generally were. That could be ascribed to their youth; I smoked though most of that box with only a year or so on them. And if not, maybe we'll see the quality of the Regalias improve since it now stands alone.

The bit of trivia this inspired me to research is this: There have been 35 regular production deletions over the last decade in mid-gauge rings from 38-43. Other than a couple of "_clean-ups on aisle JLP_", of the rest NOT ONE of them has been from that column of previously machine-made cigars that were converted to handmade long-filler post-2002. Those are the ones I consider the truest "cheap & cheerfuls", and the HU Regalias is one of them. In HSA's rush to produce ever-costlier special editions I find it odd that they chose to keep all of those C&C's, even when there was a more expensive corresponding cigar in the same marca they did discontinue.

In fact, 8 of the 33 were marevas, which I think HSA admits is still their highest selling shape. Next in line were coronas, with 5 deletions. We also lost 6 or 7 that could arguably be grouped together, lonsdales and long coronas that go by such factory names as dalias, cervantes, conservas and such.

It's really a shame that so many great mid-gauge Cubans are lost to history now. Perhaps one day the broader interest in these classic vitolas we've lost so many of will cause the pendulum to swing the other way. Thankfully, at least those aimed at budget-minded customers have been spared... for now.


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## Bird-Dog (Oct 16, 2009)

Follow-up on the HU Regalias. I smoked my last one from the previous box last night, LEP ABR 16. It was outstanding! The extra year or year-and-a-half since smoking another cured any harshness I'd remembered. Was smooth and loaded with flavor. So, I'll go on record as saying, the HU Regalias should be a worthy replacement for the HUPC in my rotation given time to marinate... (though I did tuck a few boxes of HUPC's away before they disappeared).

But this is a trivia thread, right? So let me dig something up...

The only other current Cuban cigar I'm aware of with "Regalias" in its name is the RyJ Regalias de Londres. That one is a coronitas, the factory's _Vitola de Galera_ for a 4-9/16"x40 _parejo_. However, RyJ also produces the Coronitas en Cedro which isn't really a coronitas, rather a 5"x40 petit cetros (note that even though "coronitas" may be interpreted as a generic or common term for a small cigar with a corona-ish RG, HSA does not use it that way, instead including that class of vitolas in "petit coronas" for their common designation).

Of the 5 coronitas in current production the RyJ Regalias de Londres is the only one that isn't presented in a tube, the others being the H.Upmann Coronas Minor, Partagas Coronas Junior, Punch Petit Coronations, and the Romeo y Julieta Romeo No.3 (the later presumably the same as the Rgalias de Londres, but _en tubo_).


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## Pag#11 (Apr 14, 2018)

curmudgeonista said:


> I just picked up a box of H. Upmann Regalias. That's a 5.1"x42 petit corona, which is exactly the same size as the now-discontinued H.Upmann Petit Coronas mareva. I find it odd that HSA chose to delete the HUPC and keep the Regalias. Of course, I'm hoping that over time the Regalias will prove itself to be a worthy substitute. I've only had one box of them before and, though a perfectly nice everyday sort of smoke, they were not nearly as smooth and refined as the HUPC's generally were. That could be ascribed to their youth; I smoked though most of that box with only a year or so on them. And if not, maybe we'll see the quality of the Regalias improve since it now stands alone.
> 
> The bit of trivia this inspired me to research is this: There have been 35 regular production deletions over the last decade in mid-gauge rings from 38-43. Other than a couple of "_clean-ups on aisle JLP_", of the rest NOT ONE of them has been from that column of previously machine-made cigars that were converted to handmade long-filler post-2002. Those are the ones I consider the truest "cheap & cheerfuls", and the HU Regalias is one of them. In HSA's rush to produce ever-costlier special editions I find it odd that they chose to keep all of those C&C's, even when there was a more expensive corresponding cigar in the same marca they did discontinue.
> 
> ...


I hear and read a bunch of complaints regarding HSA axing certain sizes and cigars. Seems like they have been making ____________ and __________ cigars lately. Most likely to keep up with the trends. 
Since it's trivia fill in the blanks.

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## avitti (Jun 4, 2011)

curmudgeonista said:


> We also lost 6 or 7 that could arguably be grouped together, lonsdales and long coronas that go by such factory names as dalias, cervantes, conservas and such.
> 
> It's really a shame that so many great mid-gauge Cubans are lost to history now. Perhaps one day the broader interest in these classic vitolas we've lost so many of will cause the pendulum to swing the other way. Thankfully, at least those aimed at budget-minded customers have been spared... for now.


Lonsdales still are my favorite vitola and the Partagas 02 lonsdales my favorite cigar. The vitola was named after the 5th Earl of Lonsdale,Hugh Lowther referred to sometimes as the yellow earl as his favorite color was yellow. Rafael Gonzalez was the first brand to call the cervantes(6.5 inch by 42rg) a lonsdales....and that's my cigar trivia for 2018.


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## Joe Sticks (May 31, 2016)

@curmudgeonista - As a fellow history buff, I'm loving this thread, Jack

Thanks for posting it !

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## Cigary (Oct 19, 2007)

Great Thread....gave me a reason to do some research.

1. Legendary writer Mark Twain, at the request of his wife, put an end to his 300 cigars a month habit that led to a period of writers block. He then resumed his cigar habit and wrote a book in three months… unfortunately his wife left him!

2. A thousand tobacco seeds can fit inside a thimble. Once planted cigar tobacco plants need approximately eight hours of sunlight each day.

3. In 1492 Christopher Columbus first landed on the island of Colba, known today as Cuba. He noted his disappointment that there was no treasure to be found and the fact he thought he was travelling to India! Fortunately for stogie fans, the locals introduced him to the burning and inhaling of the leaves they called Cohiba, known today as tobacco.

4. In preparation for his first high-altitude airplane flight, Winston Churchill ordered the creation of an oxygen mask that would accommodate cigar smoking.


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