# So... if you haven't joined the CRA yet... Why not?



## CRA Ambass Lloyd

Ok, let me start by saying as an Ambassador for the CRA I'm biased. I have also been embedded in politics my whole live so I drift towards political issues easily.

My question is with all the legislation happening around the country on all levels. Municipal, County, Parish, State and Federal levels trying to either limit our ability to smoke or open a smoking establishment or even stop it all together (FDA). If you have not joined the CRA, at a cost of about 6 cigars a year, why not? Is there a specific reason? I would like honest answers please. This is one of the things Ambassadors are responsible for is feedback.

If you have just been lazy about it then go here CRA - Cigar Rights of America and get involved. All I ask is you use me as a referral. I get nothing in return except letting them know I'm doing my job. Lloyd Lively #0036


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## bazookajoe

Your wording implies that since it only costs 6 cigars per year it can't be the cost, and the only other thing you think it might be is laziness. And since you said you only want honest answers I guess I'll have to tell the truth, you know, since you asked so nicely...

There are a couple reasons. One, I don't have the money (if I did I would rather donate it to a charity that helps people in need) and the other is I don't know that donating to CRA has any actual effect on legislation. I'm sure the cigar industry spends plenty of money trying to get the word out and affect change, and I don't see how my annual dues would make the effort more effective.


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## Spyderturbo007

CRA Ambass Lloyd said:


> All I ask is you use me as a referral. I get nothing in return except letting them know I'm doing my job. Lloyd Lively #0036


Really? Because that's not what the website says.



Cigar Rights of America Website said:


> For every friend you refer who becomes a CRA member, you'll receive a 30-Day Membership Extension1 and your friend will receive 2 FREE Cigars2. It's that simple! And there's no limit to how many friends you can refer - or how many 30-Day Membership Extensions you can earn!
> 
> IMPORTANT: Each time your refer a friend, simply ask them to enter your CRA Member ID in the Referred By field at checkout. Each time we extend your membership term, we'll let you know!


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## Fuzzy

Good catch Nathan! It is the stuff like this that has me leary of joining. That and the fact that some of the officers get paid more in a year than I get in 5 to 10 years. This pay has to come out of the dues and I have to wonder how much more comes from dues that may not be in the best interest of the members.


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## CRA Ambass Lloyd

bazookajoe said:


> Your wording implies that since it only costs 6 cigars per year it can't be the cost, and the only other thing you think it might be is laziness. And since you said you only want honest answers I guess I'll have to tell the truth, you know, since you asked so nicely...
> 
> There are a couple reasons. One, I don't have the money (if I did I would rather donate it to a charity that helps people in need) and the other is I don't know that donating to CRA has any actual effect on legislation. I'm sure the cigar industry spends plenty of money trying to get the word out and affect change, and I don't see how my annual dues would make the effort more effective.


No, you are correct that some people don't have $35 a hear to go towards fighting to get the government out of our smokes. And they can still make calls, fill out petitions or just be conscious of what legislation around them may be coming on a local basis. Then let those of us who are in the fray know because we just can't be everywhere. What your money goes to is paying expenses towards fighting. It is not cheap to lobby congress. Very much the same as the NRA does. It just takes enough everyday grass roots people saying no, to make that difference. I personally have been if front of 3 different city council's and by my presence and speaking to them either stopped a ban or made enough of an impact to have the ban tweaked. I also did it on my own dime because they were in driving distance and only a day of my time each time. As just a citizen if I would have made little to know impact, but as an Ambassador with the weight of the organization behind me... they paid attention.

BTW: my comment was "If you have just been lazy about it" really more implying that you've been meaning to and just haven't done it yet.


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## CRA Ambass Lloyd

Spyderturbo007 said:


> Really? Because that's not what the website says.


Hmm, that's new. I've been an ambassador/member for 3 years and they haven't mentioned that during the conference calls. Wow, I'm going to get an extension!


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## Spyderturbo007

Fuzzy said:


> Good catch Nathan! It is the stuff like this that has me leary of joining. That and the fact that some of the officers get paid more in a year than I get in 5 to 10 years. This pay has to come out of the dues and I have to wonder how much more comes from dues that may not be in the best interest of the members.


I'm with you on that one. I do donate to some different causes, but I always take a look at their reporting before I make my decision. It's odd for a non-profit to not have their financial disclosure on their website.


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## CRA Ambass Lloyd

Fuzzy said:


> Good catch Nathan! It is the stuff like this that has me leary of joining. That and the fact that some of the officers get paid more in a year than I get in 5 to 10 years. This pay has to come out of the dues and I have to wonder how much more comes from dues that may not be in the best interest of the members.


Well, I don't know how much you make a year. I can tell you I know Glynn Loope, Executive Director, pretty well and he makes more than I do. But this is his full time job. It is Brian Berman's, Membership Director, full time job and I know him very well and between my day job and the cigar rep'ing I do on the side, I make more than he does. Mike Cooperman is a paid lobbyist. I do not know him very well or what he's making. But outside of them, the attorney and accountant, the board members to my understanding are unpaid as they all have skin in the game. SO the rest goes to promotional items for sale, gimme's for members and fighting legislation.

The only interest this organization has is in keeping the government out of tobacco as much as possible. If you are ever unsure where money goes in an organization just call and ask.


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## CRA Ambass Lloyd

Spyderturbo007 said:


> I'm with you on that one. I do donate to some different causes, but I always take a look at their reporting before I make my decision. It's odd for a non-profit to not have their financial disclosure on their website.


Non-profits are a 501-3c. Being that the CRA is legislative in nature only at this point they can not qualify as a 501-3c and have to be listed as a 501-4c. They work within the same guidelines as a 501-3c but nothing we do can actually be written of out taxes.


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## Cigar Noob

bazookajoe said:


> Your wording implies that since it only costs 6 cigars per year it can't be the cost, and the only other thing you think it might be is laziness. And since you said you only want honest answers I guess I'll have to tell the truth, you know, since you asked so nicely...
> 
> There are a couple reasons. One, I don't have the money (if I did I would rather donate it to a charity that helps people in need) and the other is I don't know that donating to CRA has any actual effect on legislation. I'm sure the cigar industry spends plenty of money trying to get the word out and affect change, and I don't see how my annual dues would make the effort more effective.


x2



CRA Ambass Lloyd said:


> Non-profits are a 501-3c. Being that the CRA is legislative in nature only at this point they can not qualify as a 501-3c and have to be listed as a 501-4c. They work within the same guidelines as a 501-3c but nothing we do can actually be written of out taxes.


And 501c3's disclose expenditures and apparently 501c4s don't have to and/or chose not to.... (lack of transparency is a HUGE difference IMO)



Spyderturbo007 said:


> I'm with you on that one. I do donate to some different causes, but I always take a look at their reporting before I make my decision. It's odd for a non-profit to not have their financial disclosure on their website.


They aren't a charity, they are basically a PAC (political action committee) or simply a lobbying group. Doesn't seem like they are required to disclose.


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## Fuzzy

Cigar Noob said:


> They aren't a charity, they are basically a PAC (political action committee) or simply a lobbying group. Doesn't seem like they are required to disclose.


For some PAC's that kind of disclosure would be prime evidence for a grand jury indictment. How well would it go over if the PAC had to admit how much cash or other non monetary "considerations" were handed out under the table to Congressmen.


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## JGD

The lack of transparency is why I'm not a member. Before my wife and I donate our hard earned money to any anyone (this includes politician entities and charities) I need to know where that money will be going. There are a few "political movements" that I refuse to support in any way- even if only a small portion of the money would end up with them. Until I know for sure that the CRA does not use any funds to support those movements (even indirectly), I will not join.


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## usrower321

I have been considering joining, but this thread has discouraged me from doing just that. I have a hatred for all the maneuverings and backstabbing that occur in politics. It's like kids fighting on a playground. It seems like you're using the same language with us as you would in politics



CRA Ambass Lloyd said:


> Hmm, that's new. I've been an ambassador/member for 3 years and they haven't mentioned that during the conference calls. Wow, I'm going to get an extension!


You don't know your own referral policy but you were very certain of it in your first post. Maybe fact-checking is in order? I mean it is on your website.



CRA Ambass Lloyd said:


> Well, I don't know how much you make a year. I can tell you I know Glynn Loope, Executive Director, pretty well and he makes more than I do. But this is his full time job. It is Brian Berman's, Membership Director, full time job and I know him very well and between my day job and the cigar rep'ing I do on the side, I make more than he does. Mike Cooperman is a paid lobbyist. I do not know him very well or what he's making. But outside of them, the attorney and accountant, the board members to my understanding are unpaid as they all have skin in the game. SO the rest goes to promotional items for sale, gimme's for members and fighting legislation.
> 
> The only interest this organization has is in keeping the government out of tobacco as much as possible. *If you are ever unsure where money goes in an organization just call and ask.*


If it's as easy as calling and asking and if many of us are curious why can't you post it up here? The easiest way to sway people toward joining your cause is to be open, honest, and transparent. Look at the recent issue IBEW had with an Oliva cigar. BengalMan (who is an Oliva rep) posted openly and honestly about it. Yes they're separate matters but both of you represent an organization. I'm going to say most of the BOTLs and SOTLs on here are not sheeple and don't support organizations because someone says they benefit them.


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## CRA Ambass Lloyd

JGD said:


> The lack of transparency is why I'm not a member. Before my wife and I donate our hard earned money to any anyone (this includes politician entities and charities) I need to know where that money will be going. There are a few "political movements" that I refuse to support in any way- even if only a small portion of the money would end up with them. Until I know for sure that the CRA does not use any funds to support those movements (even indirectly), I will not join.


JDG I don't blame you. One of the reasons I will not give my money to the United Way and several other national charity collection services. Call Brian Berman at 800-460-0729 and ask your questions. The CRA is not a labor union or other type organization that takes money a places it with things outside of it's scope. It's not some slush fund for tobacco growers or anything. When you have doubts never assume. Pick the phone up and ask.

Again I don't want anyone to join who isn't comfortable. But take 10 minutes to find out.


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## CRA Ambass Lloyd

usrower321 said:


> I have been considering joining, but this thread has discouraged me from doing just that. I have a hatred for all the maneuverings and backstabbing that occur in politics. It's like kids fighting on a playground. It seems like you're using the same language with us as you would in politics
> 
> You don't know your own referral policy but you were very certain of it in your first post. Maybe fact-checking is in order? I mean it is on your website.
> 
> If it's as easy as calling and asking and if many of us are curious why can't you post it up here? The easiest way to sway people toward joining your cause is to be open, honest, and transparent. Look at the recent issue IBEW had with an Oliva cigar. BengalMan (who is an Oliva rep) posted openly and honestly about it. Yes they're separate matters but both of you represent an organization. I'm going to say most of the BOTLs and SOTLs on here are not sheeple and don't support organizations because someone says they benefit them.


Wow, so they change something recently without that I just haven't seen or been told about and all of a sudden I'm not transparent. I'm just an Ambassador. A guy who felt like getting involved and originally paid for the ability to do so. BTW that policy it seems is also available to ANY member. Not just Ambassadors. So everyone who is a member will benifit. If it's that big an issue please join and don't use me as a reference if it bothers you so bad. No skin of my nose. I don't keep track of how many people I sign up. I also don't look to see when my membership is due. I get an email and pay it. That's small stuff. I concentrate on educating fellow smokers on the issues that are out there and try to get them to join and get involved. The more voices the loader the squeak from the wheel.

I don't think I ever eluded to anyone here being sheeple. I also don't know anything about the afore mentioned situation as there are 10s of thousands of discussions on this board. But whatever that situation was. I'm not that person or situation. I just ask a very straight forward question that some people apparently have an issue with. Don't like the organization for whatever reason. Don't join. No body is demanding you do or making you in any way. I'll still sit down and smoke one with you if we ever meet up. So smile, light up and have a great new year.


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## bazookajoe

CRA Ambass Lloyd said:


> Wow, so they change something recently without that I just haven't seen or been told about and all of a sudden I'm not transparent. I'm just an Ambassador. A guy who felt like getting involved and originally paid for the ability to do so. BTW that policy it seems is also available to ANY member. Not just Ambassadors. So everyone who is a member will benifit. If it's that big an issue please join and don't use me as a reference if it bothers you so bad. No skin of my nose. I don't keep track of how many people I sign up. I also don't look to see when my membership is due. I get an email and pay it. That's small stuff. I concentrate on educating fellow smokers on the issues that are out there and try to get them to join and get involved. The more voices the loader the squeak from the wheel.
> 
> I don't think I ever eluded to anyone here being sheeple. I also don't know anything about the afore mentioned situation as there are 10s of thousands of discussions on this board. But whatever that situation was. I'm not that person or situation. I just ask a very straight forward question that some people apparently have an issue with. Don't like the organization for whatever reason. Don't join. No body is demanding you do or making you in any way. I'll still sit down and smoke one with you if we ever meet up. So smile, light up and have a great new year.


I don't know if this type of almost belligerent attitude is what it takes to debate your political rivals, but this is not a political forum, and we are here as people who share a passion for pipe and cigar smoking and enjoy discussion, reviews and shared experiences. If you feel the need to force people to see things your way and belittle the opinions of those who question you, you should go find a forum where that is appropriate. That doesn't work here, and IMO you need to be a little more circumspect with your tone and comments.


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## CRA Ambass Lloyd

Sorry David but you must be reading "tone" into something I'm not intending. I'm just a guy who is passionate about the endeavor that is enjoyed by the people who are here on this board. And being so joined in an organization that is trying to stop what we, and from what I've seen to be many here, believe is unfair legislation. If you look at this thread I asked a question and was given some responses that made it seem like the organization I support was not above board or couldn't tell if they were. I tried to hedge a few of those concerns. 

Like I said I just support. I'm not on the board of directors or a paid staff member. I don't have all the answers all the time. And the organization can and will make changes or do something without giving me or anyone else a heads up sometimes. I can't control that. So pretty much all I've done is try to answer some concerns and when I didn't have the answer gave out a method that those questions can be answered. If that's not appropriate I don't know what would be then. I also have not belittled anyone. I haven't "Called anyone out", I haven't called anyone "Names", and I haven't told anyone that their opinion is wrong or unjustified. I haven't brought politics of any kind up except that of unfair tobacco legislation. I've just spoken to some concerns that was raised. 

All I have done is ask why some people haven't joined. I will take the responses I get back to the main guys and express them. That's all I can do. Remember people on a board can't hear the tone of your voice so sometimes people take things as they weren't intended. I'm not mad or upset with anyone and I don't think anyone here is with me. If someone took something the wrong way, again I can not control the emotions they put into something they are reading. If someone isn't sure I invite them to PM me and I'll be glad to call and talk to them about the issue so they can hear my tone and my intent.

I hope this clears the air a bit with you.


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## Athion

Im biased here because Lloyd is a friend of mine that I've known since Jr. High School...

He was just asking for feedback, and the post that David called Belligerent? It was all but an apology.

Lloyd believes in the CRA and what they do. Thats it, bottom line. He's passionate about cigars and people's rights to enjoy them. I dont think I've ever seen anyone get attacked the way he has on this board. Hell, its one of the reason I LIKE this board, people dont attack for no reason. 

You want to know what kind of guy Lloyd is? This is a guy I hadnt talked to in 20 years, I called him out of the blue because I needed some DJ equipment for my wife's memorial. Lloyd dropped everything, drove 60 miles to where we were and MC'd the entire event. You know what he asked for as payment? Nothing. He even brought ME some cigars.


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## Marlboro Cigars-cl

I do like the auto-generated messages to the House and Senate; think that is one way everyone can contritube to fighting anti-cigar legislation especially for those opposed to joining or contributing monetarily. Dunno how much it will actually help, but took me less than a minute.

CRA - Cigar Rights of America


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## CRA Ambass Lloyd

Wow, Mike. Thanks.


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## CRA Ambass Lloyd

Thanks Mark, that has been a great way. So far according to the website, their has been 135,256 petitions sent. It doesn't seem like much at times but everyone of those makes the pile higher and squeak loader. Thanks for sending.


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## CRA Ambass Lloyd

Let me do this. If it's ok with everyone? If you have a question or concern. State the question simply. No emotion, opinions, etc. Just the question. I will compile them and take them to CRA corporate and see what they say.


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## Fuzzy

I see proof that discussion/debate on a forum is tough on this and other forums regularly. Without visual and audible signs, things can be taken different than what was meant. 

I did not see any attack mode but was not looking for it. I did see questions asked that probably should have been answered in a way that inspired more confidence in the representative.

Way back when, if I was asked a question I did not know the answer to, my response was almost always, "I do not know but I will find out and get back to you." 

I am sure Lloyd is passionate about this cause and it is good that he is trying to get the word out but a search of Puff would have brought up almost the same questions and even some great answers. 

I am to lazy to do the search and to broke to join at this time of the year.


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## usrower321

How much of every dollar given to CRA goes *directly *toward fighting cigar legislation? Can a breakdown of percentages of how dues are spent by the organization be provided? If not, why?


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## bazookajoe

CRA Ambass Lloyd said:


> Sorry David but you must be reading "tone" into something I'm not intending...


Don't think so...



CRA Ambass Lloyd said:


> Wow, so they change something recently without that I just haven't seen or been told about and all of a sudden I'm not transparent...





CRA Ambass Lloyd said:


> ...If it's that big an issue please join and don't use me as a reference if it bothers you so bad. No skin of my nose...


&#8230;



CRA Ambass Lloyd said:


> ...Remember people on a board can't hear the tone of your voice so sometimes people take things as they weren't intended...


This works both ways.

&#8230;



CRA Ambass Lloyd said:


> I hope this clears the air a bit with you.


Yup, we're good as long as you recognize that there is a big difference between zealousness for a cause and an attitude. I have teenagers-I can smell an attitude a mile away.

&#8230;



Athion said:


> ...He was just asking for feedback, and the post that David called Belligerent? It was all but an apology...


Really, like the two parts I quoted above? Are those part of the almost "apology"?

&#8230;

No more arguing points. Just keep things civil and friendly.


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## Mante

Sorry guys but I saw it from David's point of view the minute I read the OP. If someone comes here and asks me why I have not contributed to a cause or charity it is going to get my back up straight away. The surest way of never getting a dime from me is to ask me why I do not already give away my hard earned money. As an ambassador you may need to tweak your wordings Lloyd. Carry on gentlemen.


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## Cigar Noob

David interpreted it just as most of us seem to have. Stumbling onto a cigar forum and in your first month trying to strongly encourage people to giving your group money (it isn't a charity, so it really isn't a donation) is rarely going to go over well. We never know what causes people choose to donate and support, and most people keep that private and like what Warren said, are offended when someone asks "why aren't you supporting my cause?". 

It never helps when the people reading know more about your referral program than you. Either you are uninformed or are being less than honest, neither of those options reflect well. People get banned on forums for that kind of self-promotion. Based on the referral program, you gain financially from recruiting and without full disclosure it just looks bad, regardless of whether that was the goal. 

You'll be fine, but always try and keep in mind that the interweb is a whole different animal. Often times someone's zealousness in writing for can be taken as being pushy. Trust me, I've felt the wrath here on things being taken not as intended. Kiss, makeup, and move along. No harm done. No one will blackball you so it isn't a big deal. David is a solid member and a Moderator so he isn't just a guy looking to get into a flame war.


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## Blaylock-cl

Tashaz said:


> ... If someone comes here and asks me why I have not contributed to a cause or charity it is going to get my back up straight away. The surest way of never getting a dime from me is to ask me why I do not already give away my hard earned money. *As an ambassador you may need to tweak your wordings Lloyd.* Carry on gentlemen.


I have to agree, Warren.

The same topic with a different reaction:

*http://www.cigarforums.net/forums/vb/tobacco-legislation/300183-cigar-rights-america.html*



truckertim said:


> Forgive me if this thread already exists but I feel its needed to mention. In todays America when anyone tries to enjoy _*any*_ form of tobacco they are automatically looked down upon and criticized as if they are some sort of lower life form it is imperative that all BOTL's come together and fight back for this one basic freedom.
> Brian Berman and the guys at Cigar Rights of America(@CigarRights on twitter) are out there everyday fighting the good fight. Making sure that everyone knows about current legislation that is being kicked around in Washington that is trying to take our right to engage in using tobacco away and those on the local government side attempting to do the same thing. Not too mention all of the events they hold all across the country with local B&M's, manufacturers, or on their own.
> Membership is very reasonable at $35/year or go for lifetime $500(billed monthly for one year at $44). I think this is a small price to pay considering all that they do for us BOTL's. I am honored to say that I am lifetime member #81403783 of Cigar Rights of America!


Sometimes, the way a topic is presented... can produce a totally different outcome.


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## Oldmso54

Well, I'm a CRA member and I did it because there are so few people and organizations FOR cigar smoking vs AGAINST cigar smoking that one rationale was I'll take any advocate I can get.

Also, Jeff Borysiewicz, the president of Corona Cigar Co. with 3 locations and their World Headquarters here in Orlando is a big supporter, lobbys for the cigar industry, and generally promotes our RIGHT to smoke cigars. Because of him and others here in FL, the Fuente and Padron Family's amongst many - I personally believe the CRA is a good thing for me - a cigar smoker.

This is just my personal opinion and I have no beef or gripe with anyone who disagrees, but really ask yourself this: 

WHO is fighting for our RIGHT to enjoy cigars? And are local, state and federal governments trying to take that RIGHT away?

For me it was simple: The only organization I know of fighting for my RIGHT to smoke is the CRA and I know I'm not gonna go out and beat the streets so I'll give my support by joining their membership. The other answer is YES, a lot of governmental organizations, especially here locally, are constantly trying to take away my RIGHT to enjoy a cigar - so for a minimal amount of money - I'll donate to an organization that I believe is sticking up for me.

And I don't know the OP but I have had the chance to talk to local, family run B&M owners, and people who run websites here locally, about cigars and they believe in the CRA. It was good enough for me / maybe not others but that's the beauty of our great country - we have the RIGHT to have our own opinions and disagree with each other.

As my college age son says: "Peace Out" because I'm just one person with their own opinion not looking to start a war.


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## StogieNinja

I didn't see anything in Lloyd's first post that was meant as antagonistic... I read his "have you just been lazy" they way he probably meant it. I think Lloyd probably had good intentions when posting.

Lloyd, I'm sure you're a great guy, and you likely have great intentions, and I'm sure it's just because you're passionate about the cause and about the organization you volunteer your time for, and that's perfectly normal... but your subsequent posts come off as fairly combative. As an ambassador, you need to have winning arguments, not win arguments.

To answer your actual question, I haven't joined for two reasons.

First, I'm on much the same page as the others - I will not donate my hard earned cash to an organization that does not disclose it's financial statistics.

Secondly, as much as I love my cigars (and I _love _my cigars), there are other political issues I find much more important to support, and other organizations that provide more important services for the money. For example, CareNet provides desperately needed pregnancy services such as ultra-sounds and basic items for newborns to low-income areas. Sacred Road Ministries serves the Yakima Nation here in WA, who's reservation is one of the poorest areas in the entire country. I support a missionary dentist who provides medically necessary dental procedures to impoverished areas in Ecuador.

All of these ministries provide much more basic services than cigar rights, and as long as some of those causes exist, I'll likely not contribute money towards a PAC that's not financially transparent and is not lobbying for political causes much more important to me than my cigars, much as I love them.

Don't get me wrong, I believe cigar rights, much like gun rights, are crucial battlegrounds in the fight over American freedoms. I've been happy to write letters. But I also believe there are much more vital issues out there, so that's where the money goes.


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## smelvis

CRA Ambass Lloyd said:


> JDG I don't blame you. One of the reasons I will not give my money to the United Way and several other national charity collection services. Call Brian Berman at 800-460-0729 and ask your questions. The CRA is not a labor union or other type organization that takes money a places it with things outside of it's scope. It's not some slush fund for tobacco growers or anything. When you have doubts never assume. Pick the phone up and ask.
> 
> Again I don't want anyone to join who isn't comfortable. But take 10 minutes to find out.


Hi Lloyd
I am a member and may continue to be it all depends, I joined because there was nothing else out there and the cost was minimal. I do take to task your answer about where the monies go, asking us to call is seriously wrong if there is nothing to hide it should be detailed and on the CRA website easy for us to see. I am not calling anyone and if I pay next years dues will depend on if this info is easily avaliable for me to see without calling or having to search to find it.

That's about all I have to say hope this can be fixed.

Dave


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## JGD

Aninjaforallseasons said:


> Don't get me wrong, I believe cigar rights, much like gun rights, are crucial battlegrounds in the fight over American freedoms. I've been happy to write letters. But I also believe there are much more vital issues out there, so that's where the money goes.


I couldn't have said it any better.


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## JGD

smelvis said:


> Hi Lloyd
> I am a member and may continue to be it all depends, I joined because there was nothing else out there and the cost was minimal. I do take to task your answer about where the monies go, asking us to call is seriously wrong if there is nothing to hide it should be detailed and on the CRA website easy for us to see. I am not calling anyone and if I pay next years dues will depend on if this info is easily avaliable for me to see without calling or having to search to find it.
> 
> That's about all I have to say hope this can be fixed.
> 
> Dave


Dave is completely correct with this statement, this information should be available much easier.


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## Richterscale

I was just thinking about this again today! I'm glad I read this. Maybe the OP can enlighten me because I'm seriously ignorant on the details. But a couple of months ago I was made aware of the compensation for Glynn and Brian and it threw me off a bit. I'll link the 2009 document below and notice page 7 where it shows them making aprox 103.5k and 80k respectively. Numbers like that are enough to scare off anyone who's wondering where they money really goes. Maybe that compensation doesn't tell us that they spend that much lobbying.. maybe someone can address this for me because I genuinely have no idea. But if this is their take home compensation and the lobby money comes from another bucket then *THAT* is the reason I haven't contributed yet. I do sign every petition and I forward them by email to friends.

Even having seen that document I still may sign up for membership if someone can explain to me how it works. I'm absolutely in favor of endorsing the cause because we need representation. But like others here, I'm concerned about what money goes where.

http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2010/800/182/2010-800182020-063aa598-9O.pdf

EDIT: I just saw an old email that stated the executives compensation came from subsidies from the cigar companies.. if that's the case and it doesn't come out of the membership fees then I guess that answers my question. Can anyone confirm this?


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## E Dogg

But their salaries are listed under (D) Reported compensation from THE organization. Not (E) Reported compensation from RELATED organizations... 

Maybe I'm not quite getting something here


Edit: I've looked at that 990 pretty good. While I'm not a CPA by any means, looking at part 1 line 8 ($511,228 ) is the membership dues while line 15 ($205,261) is their salaries... There's other expenses but no other contributions. Seems pretty clear. 

BTW, did you notice how the salaries increased $140K+ while the membership dues only increased $61K+


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## asmartbull

Just some random thoughts here.

1. Had the original post been worded differently, I believe this thread would have stayed
more positive. To the OP "Tone Matters"
2. I have been on the boards of many 501-C3's and frankly it tells you little about the organization.
It mostly explains their tax status and explains if contributions are tax deductible. A minor point in this case 
3. You would be surprise to see how much leaders in these tax exempt organizations make.....
That said, I DON"T CARE....
4. What matters to me is results on my behalf.
IMO, based on results, this is a good organization, regardless of how the op came off in his first post.


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## Damselnotindistress

Wow! In reading these statements I didn't even know there was a cost to join! I hadn't because in fact I don't really join groups - not easily anyway. Before I get mixed up in anything I have to check it out, decide if it's FOR ME, etc., etc. This particular forum I've joined, Puff.com I've checked out and found it to be to my great liking, and I am very, very happy to belong to THIS cigar-related forum (and one other). As for CRA, while the ideals sound nice, I do believe in being very careful about just "jumping in" to it for a variety of reasons. Sometimes "things just happen" to pop up, be causes for concern about "other" beliefs or "causes" to end up there that may or may not be conducive or agreeable to my own beliefs, affections or affiliations. So for CRA - I'll wait. Just as was said earlier, the major cigar manufacturers and large companies with lots of clout are no doubt doing what they need to do to counteract what's going on that will or may affect their sales and profits.


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## CRA Ambass Lloyd

Fuzzy said:


> I see proof that discussion/debate on a forum is tough on this and other forums regularly. Without visual and audible signs, things can be taken different than what was meant.
> 
> I did not see any attack mode but was not looking for it. I did see questions asked that probably should have been answered in a way that inspired more confidence in the representative.
> 
> Way back when, if I was asked a question I did not know the answer to, my response was almost always, "I do not know but I will find out and get back to you."
> 
> I am sure Lloyd is passionate about this cause and it is good that he is trying to get the word out but a search of Puff would have brought up almost the same questions and even some great answers.
> 
> I am to lazy to do the search and to broke to join at this time of the year.


Hey Fuzzy, If someone doesn't have the funds, that's a legitimate reason. No if's and's or butt's about it. Doesn't mean they care less or more. I've had money in my life and I have been homeless. As of now I'm in between. So I feel ya. Hope you smoked something great this weekend.


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## CRA Ambass Lloyd

usrower321 said:


> How much of every dollar given to CRA goes *directly *toward fighting cigar legislation? Can a breakdown of percentages of how dues are spent by the organization be provided? If not, why?


I'm finding out for you.


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## CRA Ambass Lloyd

Aninjaforallseasons said:


> I didn't see anything in Lloyd's first post that was meant as antagonistic... I read his "have you just been lazy" they way he probably meant it. I think Lloyd probably had good intentions when posting.
> 
> Lloyd, I'm sure you're a great guy, and you likely have great intentions, and I'm sure it's just because you're passionate about the cause and about the organization you volunteer your time for, and that's perfectly normal... but your subsequent posts come off as fairly combative. As an ambassador, you need to have winning arguments, not win arguments.
> 
> To answer your actual question, I haven't joined for two reasons.
> 
> First, I'm on much the same page as the others - I will not donate my hard earned cash to an organization that does not disclose it's financial statistics.
> 
> Secondly, as much as I love my cigars (and I _love _my cigars), there are other political issues I find much more important to support, and other organizations that provide more important services for the money. [sic]
> 
> All of these ministries provide much more basic services than cigar rights, and as long as some of those causes exist, I'll likely not contribute money towards a PAC that's not financially transparent and is not lobbying for political causes much more important to me than my cigars, much as I love them.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I believe cigar rights, much like gun rights, are crucial battlegrounds in the fight over American freedoms. I've been happy to write letters. But I also believe there are much more vital issues out there, so that's where the money goes.


Thanks Derek, It seems some people took my post as being why haven't you sent me your money. I can see how that may be interpreted that way but you caught the just of it better maybe. I agree there are all kinds of charities and organizations out there. I personally will not give to the United Way because their "Administrative Costs" are huge compared to others. I don't make allot of money so my wife and I give quite a bit of time to The Houston Livestock Show and Rodeo (raising scholarship money), Our local Homeless Shelter, the American Diabetes Association and a whole lot of time for CRA.

Keep giving where you can and in what you believe in. As I taught both my wife and daughter. We help other because we can. Not because we have to.


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## CRA Ambass Lloyd

smelvis said:


> Hi Lloyd
> I am a member and may continue to be it all depends, I joined because there was nothing else out there and the cost was minimal. I do take to task your answer about where the monies go, asking us to call is seriously wrong if there is nothing to hide it should be detailed and on the CRA website easy for us to see. I am not calling anyone and if I pay next years dues will depend on if this info is easily avaliable for me to see without calling or having to search to find it.
> 
> That's about all I have to say hope this can be fixed.
> 
> Dave


Dave I asked people to call because it had become obvious that no one wanted to believe me. So if I just gave an answer, would I be believed. When other people approach me about giving and I can't get the answer... I call or email. Maybe others are different but I will do the leg work to find out first hand and not third.

I don't think everyone will do that but if the question is that important to me... what's a few minutes on the phone or a minute to compose an email. I have found the guys at the CRA office always be nice, helpful and forth coming whenever I have had a question. I don't disagree that the website can be hard to navigate at times but, I personally, have no control over that. I will take the suggestions here and move them forward to the appropriate people. I believe that others may have the same concerns and issues. Thanks for your input.


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## CRA Ambass Lloyd

Ok, folks, here is the answers I recieved from CRA Mebership Director Brian Berman on some of your questions. If I missed one just let me know and I will get that answered as well.

1) How much of every dollar given to CRA goes directly toward fighting cigar legislation? Can a breakdown of percentages of how dues are spent by the organization be provided? If not, why?

Membership dues are $35.00 per year. Of that, CRA uses ~$5.00 for "membership activation" (which includes: adding the member to the database, printing a membership card, producing the welcome packet, etc.). The remaining $30.00 goes directly to the general lobbying fund. It's also important to mention that none of CRA's executives receive bonuses, commissions, or any other compensation outside of their annual salary. Further, CRA's executive salaries are subsidizes by corporate sponsorship funds provided by cigar manufacturers. CRA runs a very lean and efficient budget; which has contributed to the rapid success (and growth) over its short 3-year life span.

2) I am a member and may continue to be it all depends, I joined because there was nothing else out there and the cost was minimal. I do take to task your answer about where the monies go, asking us to call is seriously wrong if there is nothing to hide it should be detailed and on the CRA website easy for us to see. I am not calling anyone and if I pay next years dues will depend on if this info is easily avaliable for me to see without calling or having to search to find it.

As stated in Question #1, CRA takes its financial accounting VERY serious. We have the utmost integrity with how funds are managed and there is oversight by a Board of Directors. A third-party accounting firm manages and certifies 100% of CRA's finances for accuracy and compliance. Further, as a non-profit (501c4), all of CRA's tax documents are public record. As a matter of policy, CRA does not publish or provide such documents to its members, as they're available as public record.

3) But a couple of months ago I was made aware of the compensation for Glynn and Brian and it threw me off a bit. I'll link the 2009 document below and notice page 7 where it shows them making aprox 103.5k and 80k respectively. Numbers like that are enough to scare off anyone who's wondering where they money really goes. Maybe that compensation doesn't tell us that they spend that much lobbying.. maybe someone can address this for me because I genuinely have no idea. But if this is their take home compensation and the lobby money comes from another bucket then THAT is the reason I haven't contributed yet. I do sign every petition and I forward them by email to friends.

Even having seen that document I still may sign up for membership if someone can explain to me how it works. I'm absolutely in favor of endorsing the cause because we need representation. But like others here, I'm concerned about what money goes where.

http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocument...63aa598-9O.pdf

EDIT: I just saw an old email that stated the executives compensation came from subsidies from the cigar companies.. if that's the case and it doesn't come out of the membership fees then I guess that answers my question. Can anyone confirm this?

As stated in Question #1, the executive salaries are subsidized by corporate sponsorship funds from cigar manufacturers. As with any organization, personnel expenses will consume the highest percentage of the operating budget. CRA's executive salaries are BELOW the standard for respective positions at other non-profit organizations (both within and outside the cigar industry).

I hope this clears a few things for some folks. As before, If you have questions I will get answers. I'm also not telling anyone they have to join. But from personal experience I can tell you every voice makes the squeaky wheel louder.

If you are interested in doing more, check out who in your area is an ambassador and contact that person about events and so forth. www.cigarrights.orgIf there isn't an ambassador in your area and you maybe go to several B&M's in your area you may think about becoming an Ambassador. It really just involves talking to people about what is going on, keeping a look out for local legislation and reporting it to national and trying to get grass root folks involved.


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## asmartbull

Thank you for taking the time to answer our questions.


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## Cigar Noob

E Dogg said:


> But their salaries are listed under (D) Reported compensation from THE organization. Not (E) Reported compensation from RELATED organizations...
> 
> Maybe I'm not quite getting something here
> 
> Edit: I've looked at that 990 pretty good. While I'm not a CPA by any means, looking at part 1 line 8 ($511,228 ) is the membership dues while line 15 ($205,261) is their salaries... There's other expenses but no other contributions. Seems pretty clear.
> 
> BTW, did you notice how the salaries increased $140K+ while the membership dues only increased $61K+


This does not jive with the statement that execute salaries are paid by outside firms. Which one is it? That the salaries are paid with dues, or that the group isn't disclosing other sources of revenue to pay their salaries? This is so confusing.


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## HugSeal

> As stated in Question #1, CRA takes its financial accounting VERY serious. We have the utmost integrity with how funds are managed and there is oversight by a Board of Directors. A third-party accounting firm manages and certifies 100% of CRA's finances for accuracy and compliance. Further, as a non-profit (501c4), all of CRA's tax documents are public record. As a matter of policy, CRA does not publish or provide such documents to its members, as they're available as public record.


you also wrote about what a few minutes on the phone or the mail is to you if the subject is important.

I think that CRA should take those minutes as opposed to the members here. There are several members here who have asked where the money is going and the response has been "go look for it yourself". As an amassador I think that the subject is really important for you and that you or the CRA would take those "minutes writing a mail" to answer the question here instead of telling people to look it up themselves.

I am not a member. But that has mostly to do with teh fact that I don't live in the US.

I apologize if my wording has made this post seem agressive or rude. It is not my meaning but since english isn't my first language I find it harder to differentiate the finer nuances in the language


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## CRA Ambass Lloyd

Hi Bjorn, Hey I've been to Linköping! It was in the 80's but I've been through. I mostly remember how beautiful Sweden in general was. Hoping to take my wife on a Baltic cruise one of these days. 

No worries on the wording. I don't disagree for the most part. I did take the questions and got answers. I'm not one for second or third party info on certain matters. But that's just me. I work regular job and have two small businesses on the side and do the Ambassador thing as I can.

Enjoy that beautiful countryside.

Lloyd


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## Richterscale

Thanks for taking the time to clarify Lloyd, I appreciate it. I'm still wondering about how much is subsidy and how much of membership fees (if any) are pinched in order to inflate the compensation. I know your statement infers that the large compensation is strictly subsidized (that's the impression I got anyway) but another member brought up a good point regarding that and the report from guidestar. Having said that, I will likely join anyway and see where we're at next year with the issues. 

Thanks!


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## CRA Ambass Lloyd

The Salaries are paid for by the Cigar Manufacturers. When a Cigar company joins they pay a whole different amount than a regular member or a Great American Smoke Shop.


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## tpharkman

I don't really care what the executive salaries are because I don't begrudge a person getting paid what they are worth. While I don't know the extent of their duties I can only imagine that as lobbyists their travel calender legitamizes their compensation.

This being said, before I join or support any organization I prefer to know and understand what percentage of overall dues or fees actually go to the bottom line of getting things done. I also prefer only to join groups that have a chance in hades of actually accomplishing their expected or hoped for outcomes. I am thinking about joining because I easily waste $35.00 a year on something stupid and I believe the devils on Cap Hill are getting serious about destroying this great tradition.


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## Ducrider

+1 to what Thad said. 

To answer the original question, I haven't joined because it hasn't been put on my radar lately. Now it has.  I'll likely join the next time one of those 10 cigar samplers and membership deals for $100


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## CRA Ambass Lloyd

Ducrider said:


> +1 to what Thad said.
> 
> To answer the original question, I haven't joined because it hasn't been put on my radar lately. Now it has.  I'll likely join the next time one of those 10 cigar samplers and membership deals for $100


Hey that's great Russ. The Cigar Samplers are awesome. Unless a Great American Smoke Shop just happens to have one left all the #3 samplers are gone. The #4 is being selected now but they haven't told us a release date yet. Our Ambassador conference call is in a couple of weeks and I'll find out when they are out.


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## capitan44

It definitely is on my radar also. It sounds like a good organization and you sound very dedicated Lloyd! Keep up the good fight!


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## smelvis

I am going to continue to be a member I can not at least try it's not much money to anyone who smokes premium cigars IMHO


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