# AMMONIA



## concig (Mar 25, 2013)

Is there any way to speed up things and get rid of ammonia smell in cigars?

How long does it take for the ammonia smell to go away?

I have noticed that in some cigars,the smell is noticed at the last 1- 1 1/2 inch. Is this normal?


----------



## CheapHumidors (Aug 30, 2007)

Some people swear that you can get rid of the ammonia smell simply by airing out the cigars for a few days. I have never had any luck with that. My advice is to age it out. Usually 6 months will do it.


----------



## bleber (Oct 13, 2012)

I've not experienced an ammonia smell, but I have had some cigars that seemed to exhibit "sick" (i.e. still fermenting?) behavior, which I believe is associated with giving off ammonia. I have some CAO Concerts that I got in October. They tasted harsh/rancid then, and the one I tried in December was equally bad. So I let them sit in the humi, thinking these are terrible I don't care if I ever smoke one again. I tried one two days ago just because, and it was, dare I say, excellent. No harshness whatsoever. It took 6 months.

If it's just the last 1.5", isn't that basically at the nub? Very few cigars I smoke make it past that without noticing a change for the worse (like getting too hot). I wouldn't fault a cigar for having to set it down with 1.5" left. Am I missing something?


----------



## concig (Mar 25, 2013)

bleber said:


> If it's just the last 1.5", isn't that basically at the nub?


Well,not really if we talk about a short robusto.
Others of the same type , presumably better aged , can be smoked till you can't hold them with your fingers and taste great.


----------



## bleber (Oct 13, 2012)

concig said:


> Well,not really if we talk about a short robusto.
> Others of the same type , presumably better aged , can be smoked till you can't hold them with your fingers and taste great.


And those are usually the cigars I enjoy the most! I'm still not sure why some cigars can go seemingly forever, while others cannot. Perhaps part of it is age?


----------



## concig (Mar 25, 2013)

bleber said:


> Perhaps part of it is age?


I guess it is.


----------



## CarnivorousPelican (Jan 25, 2013)

I have some OpusX's that are doing the second round or sick whatever you want to call it also some other Arturo Fuente cigars... Airing them out helps get rid of the smell but the advice given to me by some respectable individuals is let them stew in their own brew and they will turn out awesome... I would just sit that one aside and save it for a later date... That is what am doing with mine... Before I smoke any cigars or send them out I take a smell of the foot I am assuming the off gassing is coming out the foot ( anyone want to chime in on that? ) it just makes sense since that is the open end


----------



## Cigar Guru (Dec 22, 2012)

You can smell the it more on the foot because virtually, the ammonia in the wrapper will dissipate faster than in the filler and binder. 

You can get rid of the ammonia if you air out (burp) your humi. Depending on how young the cigar, the ammonia will dissipate anytime from a week to months. However, this is not TRUE AGING. The harshness will smooth out faster if you air out your humi often, but you introduce new air (oxygen) in the micro environment. This will accelerate oxidation of the volatile oils and esters (which give the cigar its flavours). The cigar will taste smoother faster, but you will lose some of the nuances.

The way I do it however is this:

I put the cigars (Boxed/Unboxed/Celloed/uncelloed/Tissue papered/Foiled/Whatevered) in an airtight container. With some Bovedas. Sometimes without boveda.
After I'm sure that the rh is constant, I put them away in my aging humi for Long-term (True Aging). 16-17 deg celcius, 63 - 68rh, very very dark.
I only open the container to get sticks to transfer to my desktop humi or my soon to smoke humi. Room temp, 60-65rh (desktop), 18-20 deg celcius 65-69rh (soon to smoke humi).
Sometimes the containers never get opened until after more than a year. The tupperwares are opaque so I can check on the hygro inside and the condition of the cigars, without having to introduce new air.

The smell inside when I open the container after years of storage cannot be described accurately. Think old cheese/barnyard...stinky feet?

This method takes waaaay longer and is economically more restrictive. But for me, the waiting is worth it and is part of the game.

As always, no hard and fast rule. Do what you think is best. Heck, my uncle still dips his cigars in cognac.


----------



## CarnivorousPelican (Jan 25, 2013)

Cigar Guru said:


> You can smell the it more on the foot because virtually, the ammonia in the wrapper will dissipate faster than in the filler and binder.
> 
> You can get rid of the ammonia if you air out (burp) your humi. Depending on how young the cigar, the ammonia will dissipate anytime from a week to months. However, this is not TRUE AGING. The harshness will smooth out faster if you air out your humi often, but you introduce new air (oxygen) in the micro environment. This will accelerate oxidation of the volatile oils and esters (which give the cigar its flavours). The cigar will taste smoother faster, but you will lose some of the nuances.
> 
> ...


So you don't go to 55 I was thinking about storing at 62-63 rh at 55F / 12.77C using the vacuum seal method... Do you think that is to low?


----------



## Cigar Guru (Dec 22, 2012)

CarnivorousPelican said:


> So you don't go to 55 I was thinking about storing at 62-63 rh at 55F / 12.77C using the vacuum seal method... Do you think that is to low?


Still do. But only for really really old vintage cigars. 15 deg (about 59 Fahrenheit I think), 60 - 65rh.

Is 55 too cold? Nah, I don't think so. Some blokes in HK store their vintage collections at those temps. Lower even. They say it helps to stunt further aging.


----------



## piperdown (Jul 19, 2009)

Cigar Guru said:


> Still do. But only for really really old vintage cigars. 15 deg (about 59 Fahrenheit I think), 60 - 65rh.
> 
> Is 55 too cold? Nah, I don't think so. Some blokes in HK store their vintage collections at those temps. Lower even. They say it helps to stunt further aging.


Going lower should stunt the aging some since you're slowing the chemical reaction.


----------



## Snook Hunter (Apr 17, 2013)

What type of humidor do you have? I'm a total newb here, but I believe the sentiment is that Spanish cedar absorbs the ammonia.


----------



## BKDW (Nov 7, 2009)

Guru has a great post.

"Aging" them out is the way to go for me.

I have had cigars that leaked ammonia for years....One particular brand I had (years ago) had ammonia coming from it 2 years after I bought them. Only after 3 years did the ammonia stop.

Yes, you can expose it to fresh air with bands off and that will accelerate things, but as Guru said, you will lose some flavor. 

At first I didn't believe this when the old timers told me, but it took my experience to confirm this.
Ultimately, slow and steady will win the race.

If you don't have the time or resources, then unwrap them and keep them exposed to as much air as you can.


----------



## concig (Mar 25, 2013)

BKDW said:


> Guru has a great post.........
> 
> ...........At first I didn't believe this when the old timers told me, but it took my experience to confirm this.
> Ultimately, slow and steady will win the race.


That's why I'm glad I joined this forum. So much information and experience , can only educate and help people like me to learn and avoid mistakes
:beerchug:


----------



## ssaka (Oct 28, 2007)

Ammonia is an indication of under fermented leaf. Over time airing them out will decrease the "smell", but in the end the cigar will still be made from under fermented tobacco.

BR,

STS
CEO, DE


----------



## kra961 (May 16, 2012)

I thought that was the point of aging the tobacco to allow the enzymes to break the tobacco down naturally. I realize it's not the same as stacking or sun drying the leaf over time but won't it do the same thing?


----------



## CarnivorousPelican (Jan 25, 2013)

kra961 said:


> I thought that was the point of aging the tobacco to allow the enzymes to break the tobacco down naturally. I realize it's not the same as stacking or sun drying the leaf over time but won't it do the same thing?


Don't forget about melding the different blended tobaccos together which doesn't happen until they are rolled into a cigar... I would say because of the moisture / oxidation / conditions in the initial fermentation that depending on the tobacco stage of fermentation initially will dictate what stage the compounds or chemical makeup is at which then can be further "fermented" or "aged" under drier conditions which will change the decomposition speed and other factors. In the end though you can't reproduce the initial fermentation unless you have the same moist conditions. Is that accurate?  Like someone to chime in on this...

I have the feeling about to learn some stuff as soon as someone posts a detailed explanation


----------



## piperdown (Jul 19, 2009)

Start here
http://www.cigarforums.net/forums/vb/general-cigar-discussion/49838-tobacco-leaves-make-cigar-2.html

Go here
http://www.cigarforums.net/forums/vb/general-cigar-discussion/269971-ammonia-un-rested-cigar.html

And if you wish put fermentation in the search line and you'll find enough information to mash your brain.


----------



## CarnivorousPelican (Jan 25, 2013)

piperdown said:


> Start here
> http://www.cigarforums.net/forums/vb/general-cigar-discussion/49838-tobacco-leaves-make-cigar-2.html
> 
> Go here
> ...


http://naldc.nal.usda.gov/download/IND43968481/PDF



http://naldc.nal.usda.gov/download/IND43968481/PDF said:


> After curing, cigar-leaf types of tobacco in particular are allowed to
> undergo one or more fairly definite periods of fermentation or *^ sweating."
> This process is characterized chiefly by an exchange of gases,
> the generation of heat, and a modification of the flavor and aroma of
> ...





http://naldc.nal.usda.gov/download/IND43968481/PDF said:


> Apparently fermenting
> rooms should preferably be maintained at approximately 22° C.
> (72° F.), and temperatures occurring in the fermenting leaf above
> July 15, 1934 Studies on the Fermentation oj Tobacco 147
> ...





http://naldc.nal.usda.gov/download/IND43968481/PDF said:


> According to Loew (Í5), this ammonia results from
> the destruction of the nitrogenous compounds by oxidizing enzymes
> and is not a product of putrefaction. The data secured in the present
> experiments repeatedly indicate the formation of large amounts of
> ...





http://naldc.nal.usda.gov/download/IND43968481/PDF said:


> The influence on quality
> may be of various kinds, but in general the process eventually removes
> a ^^green'' or raw taste and odor and develops an aroma. The
> immediate result may often be the formation of such amounts of
> ...


I searched and read the above and it doesn't satisfy my thirst of knowledge on this subject because as shown moisture+temp+oxidation seems to increase the enzyme activity and fermentation process, but one thing I noticed in all of this is reduction oxidation has anyone experimented with that? It could be possible that initial sweating get the raw to a certain stage but the tobacco could be further improved by slowing the fermentation process by reduction oxidation.

I also found this part interesting "Hence, bulkings which result in excessive accumulation of heat may actually retard true fermentative changes."

note: Yes I read the above PDF now I am a tobacco genius am selling all my stuff moving to Nicaragua marrying a local girl and focusing solely on the development of a new method or process of fermentation... :banana:


----------



## Jasonx250z (Apr 11, 2013)

CarnivorousPelican said:


> Don't forget about melding the different blended tobaccos together which doesn't happen until they are rolled into a cigar... I would say because of the moisture / oxidation / conditions in the initial fermentation that depending on the tobacco stage of fermentation initially will dictate what stage the compounds or chemical makeup is at which then can be further "fermented" or "aged" under drier conditions which will change the decomposition speed and other factors. In the end though you can't reproduce the initial fermentation unless you have the same moist conditions. Is that accurate?  Like someone to chime in on this...
> 
> I have the feeling about to learn some stuff as soon as someone posts a detailed explanation


Oxidation is the slow burn or oxidation of metals if that was going on in a cigar then they would slowly melt away u couldn't age cigar if they oxidized in theory if it was that after a few moths they would fall a part oxidation wat more like the oils in the tobbaco leafs bods s sowly Change ther bitter or rough edges and settling that y they age tobbaco In the first place to let oils of leave combined and slowly smooth the tast y do u think they get ploom or bloom as some ppl say it is the oils rising to the surface if there still in the celo they turn yellow is not it not oxidation but oils forming bonds and over time mello out if there was oxidation we would be smoking rust not a well aged cigar but hey I could be wrong


----------



## CarnivorousPelican (Jan 25, 2013)

Jasonx250z said:


> Oxidation is the slow burn or oxidation of metals if that was going on in a cigar then they would slowly melt away u couldn't age cigar if they oxidized in theory if it was that after a few moths they would fall a part oxidation wat more like the oils in the tobbaco leafs bods s sowly Change ther bitter or rough edges and settling that y they age tobbaco In the first place to let oils of leave combined and slowly smooth the tast y do u think they get ploom or bloom as some ppl say it is the oils rising to the surface if there still in the celo they turn yellow is not it not oxidation but oils forming bonds and over time mello out if there was oxidation we would be smoking rust not a well aged cigar but hey I could be wrong


Let me be more specific for the rocket scientist here... Compounds that are being oxidized...

"The energy for generating ATP comes from the oxidation of organic compounds, such as carbohydrates"

and by redox I mean the interactions of compounds that break down with limiting the O2 exchange... I believe one is losing an electron and the other gaining...

ox·i·da·tion (ks-dshn)
n.
1. The combination of a substance with oxygen.
2. A reaction in which the atoms in an element lose electrons and the valence of the element is correspondingly increased.


----------



## Jasonx250z (Apr 11, 2013)

That is true but um but if comment about breing a scientist directed twards me I'm not try to steno on any ones toes


----------



## CarnivorousPelican (Jan 25, 2013)

Jasonx250z said:


> That is true but um but if comment about breing a scientist directed twards me I'm not try to steno on any ones toes


I apologize it is a poor choice of words but I use it quite often in my business and I do apologize if you took it in a negative way if I was to say it in person it would be with a smile laugh and a slap on the back it loses something being put in text  The point of my comments was to promote conversation ideas and so forth not to attack or negate ideas and opinions of others.. I humbly apologize if it came across as such...


----------



## Jasonx250z (Apr 11, 2013)

Ur alright Man U really can tell on here is someone's being serious or not


----------



## Cigar Guru (Dec 22, 2012)

I do not know the reason why. Under fermented or not. Some cigars really give out a lot of ammonia. I am inclined to say that this is because of, for the lack of a better word, fermentation. Very young cigars seems to be more prone to this. Perhaps because the leaves ARE INDEED under fermented? Or are rolled while still fermenting? CCs are also more prone to this. BUT, older cigars that are already ready to be smoked seems to go into further fermentation when they are subjected to high humidity. It seems that they begin to give out ammonia again. Which leads me to believe that Ammonia, while may be given off by under fermented cigars, it also seems to be a... Byproduct??? of fermentation.

I will have to humbly beg to disagree with Mr Saka. Because for us who do not manufacture Cigars, Fermentation/Aging usually gets mixed up a lot. So, a rolled cigar will still ferment/age.

I believe the leaf goes into these stages:

1. Fermentation/Aging 1 TRUE FERMENTATION wherein the leaves are piled in bails/boxes/barrels etc. and left to ferment for months to years.
2. Fermentation/Aging 2 SHELF RESTING wherein the now rolled cigars are put into storerooms (not always made of cedar) of the manufacturer to allow the leaves to even out in humidity. Also months to years I think.
3. Fermentation/Aging 3 HUMIDOR RESTING wherein the cigars are allowed to acclimate to the humidor conditions before smoking. Weeks to moths.
4. Fermentation/Aging 4 TRUE AGING where the cigars are kept in proper condition for years. Decades for some.

I experienced a fifth UNWANTED kind of fermentation where the already TRUE AGED cigars start to give out ammonia? again and start to have a taste reminiscent of younger cigars. This happened when I was still using an electronic humidifier which over saturated the cigars in one of my containers. I believe the humidity was between 75 to 80% for a week, maybe more. Too much water, it seems, can reactivate fermentation. I was able to bring back the cigars to my proper smoking conditions but it did take some doing. I had to allow them to achieve TRUE AGING again. Still, the cigars have lost a bit of luster compared to the ones that were not over saturated.


As for OXIDATION, maybe the proper word should have been DISSIPATE. Still, the volatile oils and esters will OXIDIZE? DISSIPATE? WATERED DOWN? if subjected to too much air and water.

all terms and methods are a registered trademark of Cigar Guru. All unauthorized used will be subjected to the full force of the law. LOL.


----------



## Jasonx250z (Apr 11, 2013)

Yes I do agree with u on this and u found the word I was looking for and explain further more pretty d%^* well thank for ur Input


----------



## fuente~fuente (May 11, 2009)

I kind of put it like this...to simplify it for me, if anything.

*If it smells lika a barnyard, your good to go!*

*If it smells like a cat piss, it's no bueno!*

Somtimes it's a thin line...


----------



## CarnivorousPelican (Jan 25, 2013)

fuente~fuente said:


> I kind of put it like this...to simplify it for me, if anything.
> 
> *If it smells lika a barnyard, your good to go!*
> 
> ...


Unless you like cat piss... Which then Enjoy  Personally I like cat piss from a cat which was fed roman noodles for 3 weeks... Gives it the floral notes which one can appreciate..


----------



## Jasonx250z (Apr 11, 2013)

CarnivorousPelican said:


> Unless you like cat piss... Which then Enjoy  Personally I like cat piss from a cat which was fed roman noodles for 3 weeks... Gives it the floral notes which one can appreciate..


Due tell on these floral note haha it must be a lovely sent


----------



## concig (Mar 25, 2013)

CarnivorousPelican said:


> Unless you like cat piss... Which then Enjoy  Personally I like cat piss from a cat which was fed roman noodles for 3 weeks... Gives it the floral notes which one can appreciate..


I don't have a barn,or,a cat,but I have a dog........is there something interesting to do with him ????? ound:


----------



## Mante (Dec 25, 2009)

concig said:


> I don't have a barn,or,a cat,but I have a dog........is there something interesting to do with him ????? ound:


He should be guarding your humidors whilst watching for cats.


----------



## Jordan23 (May 25, 2012)

fuente~fuente said:


> I kind of put it like this...to simplify it for me, if anything.
> 
> *If it smells lika a barnyard, your good to go!*
> 
> ...


This is my simple approach also.


----------



## madbricky (Mar 29, 2013)

fuente~fuente said:


> I kind of put it like this...to simplify it for me, if anything.
> 
> *If it smells lika a barnyard, your good to go!*
> 
> ...


 @fuente~fuente how do you help the transition from kitty to barnyard? 
@anyone for that matter.
All this data and no definitive answer.
Mr.Saka would define the answer as dog rocket if still kitty pee I assume ???
I'm confused. Maybe I should vacuum seal ?
Oy vey


----------



## fuente~fuente (May 11, 2009)

madbricky said:


> @fuente~fuente how do you help the transition from kitty to barnyard?
> @anyone for that matter.
> All this data and no definitive answer.
> Mr.Saka would define the answer as dog rocket if still kitty pee I assume ???
> ...


Time 

Just because it smells like it should be lying in a litter box doesn't mean it's a dog rocket. It could mean it was rushed in production to meet demand, or just poor QC by the manufacturer. It could turn out to be a good stick, given a little time.


----------



## madbricky (Mar 29, 2013)

fuente~fuente said:


> Time
> 
> Just because it smells like it should be lying in a litter box doesn't mean it's a dog rocket. It could mean it was rushed in production to meet demand, or just poor QC by the manufacturer. It could turn out to be a good stick, given a little time.


That's been my modus operandi on these devil site goodies.I have noticed the Ct. Wrapper mellow sticks are nothing like the darker counterparts. I am enjoying the Arganese Ct. Within weeks of drying down to 65rh but the Arganese maduro has taken since mid April off the truck to get that yummy smell. 8 weeks minimum.
My wife has a keen sniffer, I hand one to her for approval and she can smell right through the wrapper. 
Your dead on about rushed cigars I think. Might be a good idea to find some vendors that are not high volume for ready to smoke stuff. Hah! Another new thread idea. Thanks for the input.


----------



## z0diac (May 18, 2010)

'Gotta remember, that the farther you go down the cigar to the nub, you're not just smoking the original cigar tobacco anymore. You're combusting all the tar and moist steam that's built up towards that end of the cigar as you've smoked starting at the OTHER end, and all that combustion has been trapped along the way in the tobacco that makes UP the cigar.

The tobacco in a cigar becomes a natural filter, clogging up with all the tar and residue caused by pulling the combusted stuff at the lit end, THROUGH the cigar.

Most people say it's the 'complexity' of a cigar, but realistically, 'complexity' of the tobacco has nothing to do with it. IE: if you lit the cigar by the reverse end, you wouldn't get all those flavors 'in reverse'. The change in flavor is due to the action of SMOKING the cigar, and it being clogged up more and more the closer you get to your mouth, with combusted chemicals and moisture build-up.

IE: if you took a cigar, smoked it half way down, then took another of that exact same cigar, clipped it at half way and lit it - the one being smoked and the half-cigar just lit (both at identical parts of the cigar), would taste very different.

Proof? Smoke a cigar for awhile then clip it just before the 'heater' part. It'll be absolutely soggy with moisture. And the longer you smoke it, the more moisture that builds up inside (moisture and the chemical residues of combusted tobacco). It's THAT that caused the 'different flavors' in a cigar. 

IMO


----------



## fuente~fuente (May 11, 2009)

A wet cigar tastes different than one with young tobacco however... Not to mention the quality or grade of the tobacco used to make the cigar.


----------

