# CCs With Dark Wrappers



## MidwestToker (Sep 14, 2016)

I'm just curious as to why Cubans are so often medium in their appearance. Is it just tradition? I know Partagas makes a ridiculously expensive maduro, almost to the point of being gimmicky.

Don't get me wrong--I'm not at all turned away from the first steps I've taken into CCs. Quite the opposite...I can see myself getting dangerously hooked. But as a lover of Nicaraguan Maduros, I'm just curious as to why there seems to be so few dark-wrapper CCs, or if there are any that are worth trying? Am I just missing the point and barking up the wrong tree?

:vs_cool:


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## SoCal Gunner (Apr 7, 2016)

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## Maxh92 (Dec 2, 2016)

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## msmith1986 (Apr 24, 2017)

I'm going out on a limb here, but someone correct me if I'm wrong. 
I live in the heart of PA broadleaf territory. All my life I've seen how the PA broadleaf is dried and fermented to make some delicious maduro wrappers. **these maduro leaves are often marbled in appearance with some streaks of darker and lighter in some areas because the aging/darkening is done only naturally.
I asked a tobacco farmer neighbor of mine many years ago about the really dark, and even-color maduros we often see. (*this was during the boom in the 90s.) He told me many cigar producers take the marbled maduro leaves (and often young leaves) and soak and/or spray them with cooked tobacco juice to even out the color and even darken the tobacco further. He said it is common practice cosmetically and flavor-wise because a lot of cigar snobs will complain and give bad ratings with a marbled wrapper. He also said a cheaper price stick that looks amazing and tastes like crap was probably altered in that way.
Ever try a dark cigar and it tasted weird or it left a strange aftertaste? There you go.
It is my understanding that CCs are not made in this way at all because it's not "natural". Which would explain why you don't see many dark CCs.

*Disclaimer: in no way, shape, or form am I an expert on this subject matter. My statement is based solely on personal experiences, and conversations with farmers.

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## MidwestToker (Sep 14, 2016)

msmith1986 said:


> I'm going out on a limb here, but someone correct me if I'm wrong.
> I live in the heart of PA broadleaf territory. All my life I've seen how the PA broadleaf is dried and fermented to make some delicious maduro wrappers. **these maduro leaves are often marbled in appearance with some streaks of darker and lighter in some areas because the aging/darkening is done only naturally.
> I asked a tobacco farmer neighbor of mine many years ago about the really dark, and even-color maduros we often see. (*this was during the boom in the 90s.) He told me many cigar producers take the marbled maduro leaves (and often young leaves) and soak and/or spray them with cooked tobacco juice to even out the color and even darken the tobacco further. He said it is common practice cosmetically and flavor-wise because a lot of cigar snobs will complain and give bad ratings with a marbled wrapper. He also said a cheaper price stick that looks amazing and tastes like crap was probably altered in that way.
> Ever try a dark cigar and it tasted weird or it left a strange aftertaste? There you go.
> ...


You touch on a point that seems almost impossible to truly understand in the cigar world. No one really wants to fess up about, and we have no idea which manufacturers use these "alternative" methods. I don't think the likes of Don Pepin would boil any of his tobacco, but what about AJ Fernandez? Alec Bradley? I'm sure the budget lines do. But who really knows?

There's a factory tour video that has Rocky Patel working through all of the steps in making his Decade cigar. He shows maduro wrappers fermenting in hot tobacco barns and he points out how some leaves achieve that natural color consistency through the fermentation phase, and only those are chosen to be wrappers. Of course, this is just a promotional video and maybe they skipped the boiling phase. But it seems like, if done correctly, it's possible to achieve this kind of consistency through long, hot fermentation.


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## ADRUNKK (Aug 16, 2016)

I'm by no means an expert, I'm just repeating what I heard on a cigar podcast. If information is wrong i am just repeating what i heard, i have not done any research myself into this so do with it what you may.

There is 7 ways to make a maduro wrapper.

#1 Natural method. They stack the leave into piles (pilons) that are 3 to 4 feet high. The piles are wet down and covered with burlap and allowed to reach 120 degrees internal temp. when 120 degrees is reached they break the piles down rotate the leaves, cover with burlap and allow to ferment and come back up to 120 degrees. Rinse and repeat this is done over and over up to 8 times. This creates a dark leaf and develops natural sugars.

#2 Mulling room. That have a room that's heated to over 100 degrees and almost 100% humidity. The tobacco leaves are kept in this room and turned every day or two. The fermentation process takes weeks instead of months to years. This style creates a darker leaf than the natural method and the burn is not as good.

#3 Cooking in a stainless box. They put all the stems in the bottom of the stainless steel box. and pile the leaves on top. The box is sealed and heated to 200 degrees and pressurized to a 120 psi. They cook the leaves and then stick the box in a freezer for a couple days to stop the cooking process. The nicotine from the stems leaches into the leaves creating a higher nicotine content. The leaves are black when this process is done.

#4 Oils. An oil is rubbed on the tobacco leafs. They speculate that it's a mineral based oil. This type of treatment can leave the leaf with a waxy feel. When the cigar is smoked it typically gives off a blue smoke and can smell like diesel exhaust. The wrapper is shiny and dark.

#5 Painted. The leaves are cooked like process #3 but but food grade coloring is added. This apparently happened a lot during the cigar boom to rush cigars out to keep up with demand. To spot this one they say you could wet your fingers and rub the cigar and some of the coloring would rub off on your fingers. Another version of this method is they would put the stems in a bucket and rot them in water. The water would turn black and you would have a "natural" tobacco dye. The leaves would be soaked in this "natural" tobacco dye and you can increase the nicotine level up to triple.

#6 Pressed. They wet the tobacco leaf and press it in a plastic bag using a vice or a press. In the process you squeeze out the oils and bruise the leaf. The tobacco gets darker. You achieve an even consist color through out the leaf. This version is lighter in nicotine, is amoniated and not high in sugars.

#7 Hand rubbed. It's like pressing put instead the leafs are quickly rolled in the rollers hand to bruise the leaf. This is done 1 leaf at a time. The say it creates a hard "shell". It's darkened due the bruising. Typically these are less aged and are ammoniated like pressed maduro leaves.

Again. I'm no expert, I'm just repeating what I've heard. If you feel I am repeating something that is incorrect please feel free to correct what I wrote above but please don't think I am being malicious.


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## bpegler (Mar 30, 2006)

It's really quite simple. Maduro wrappers aren't any better. There are dozens of shades, but in themselves they tell you nothing about the cigar.

My personal favorite is a rojo wrapper, but they are pretty rare. I just like how they look.

That's why so called experts who claim to be able to grade a box of cigars simply by appearance, are full of it.

Some maduro wrappers get that way because they are "cooked". Those are uniformly nasty, imho.

Anyway, I've never been impressed with dark, oily wrappers. That's just hype.

Great tobacco, great blending, great rolling. That's the magic. Who cares about the shade of the wrappers?


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## UBC03 (Nov 18, 2015)

bpegler said:


> It's really quite simple. Maduro wrappers aren't any better. There are dozens of shades, but in themselves they tell you nothing about the cigar.
> 
> My personal favorite is a rojo wrapper, but they are pretty rare. I just like how they look.
> 
> ...


Is that why I see guys wet themselves over getting a box of red HUs or partis.. Then go searching for that box code like it's their long lost brother.

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## bpegler (Mar 30, 2006)

UBC03 said:


> Is that why I see guys wet themselves over getting a box of red HUs or partis.. Then go searching for that box code like it's their long lost brother.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk


Not wet. Just a little moist...


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## Bird-Dog (Oct 16, 2009)

bpegler said:


> It's really quite simple. Maduro wrappers aren't any better. There are dozens of shades, but in themselves they tell you nothing about the cigar.
> 
> My personal favorite is a rojo wrapper, but they are pretty rare. I just like how they look.
> 
> ...


You nailed it Bob! Red wrappers are the ultimate for me too.

And that "grading" thing? Well we know one guy in particular that worships dark oily wrappers and charges a premium for them. Yet, frankly, I've had more "WOW!" moments with lighter wrappers on Cubans than dark ones. Personal preference, I guess. But I think more of the rounded "twang" and sweet tobacco flavor comes through with wrappers in the claro to colorado range. The really dark Cuban wrappers, almost maduro in color, overshadow more subtle flavors with a too-spicy kick. Maybe it's the oiliness, as that seems to go hand-in-hand. Whatever it is, in the extreme, IMO you might as well be smoking an NC as an overly spicy CC.

As for Cuban maduros, HSA started down that road with the Cohiba Maduro 5's, presumably in response to the popularity of NC maduros. But, the vast majority of reviews on them have been "meh" at best. It all just leads me to believe that maduro wrappers do not really lend themselves to the profiles that many dedicated Cuban cigar lovers favor.


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## MidwestToker (Sep 14, 2016)

bpegler said:


> It's really quite simple. Maduro wrappers aren't any better. There are dozens of shades, but in themselves they tell you nothing about the cigar.
> 
> My personal favorite is a rojo wrapper, but they are pretty rare. I just like how they look.
> 
> ...


By no means do I label cigars "good" or "bad" based on the color of the wrapper. I have cigars that I love that run the gamut of light to dark. As you said, it's all about the quality of the tobacco and the quality of the blending.

However, it's been my experience that I tend to enjoy maduro cigars, which more often than not give you strong notes of chocolate and coffee. It doesn't mean that I uniformly believe dark wrappers are better than others, or that you can't also get those same flavors from natural cigars. It's just that many quality Nicaraguan maduros hit you over the head with them, which I really love.

Anyway, I was just wondering if any Cuban manufacturers are developing these methods, and if not, why?

But as I said in the OP, I'm barking up the wrong tree. Cuban cigars have their own thing going, and looking for equivalents to Nic Maduros is kind of missing the point.


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## LeatherNeck (Feb 8, 2017)

I agree ^^^. While I like some maduro many seem to be nothing more than esthetics. My personal favorite wrappers (non-maduro) is either an Ecuadorian Habano or Oscuro. I also love Corojo, Rosado, and San Andreas wrappers. To me they all have much more flavor and less of the "processing" than Maduros to achieve a certain color.

But then again, this was about CCs so my apologies for jumping track.


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## SeanTheEvans (Dec 13, 2013)

MidwestToker said:


> But as I said in the OP, I'm barking up the wrong tree. Cuban cigars have their own thing going, and looking for equivalents to Nic Maduros is kind of missing the point.


I think you've known the real answer here all along, perhaps you just didn't want to admit it to yourself quite yet. No, Cuban cigars will not be equivalent to a powerhouse Nicaraguan Maduro. Pretty much never, in my experience. It's a whole different flavor profile in general, particularly if you're talking about the Cuban Twang. Don't want to overgeneralize, but if you want big power notes in a cigar, perhaps Nicaraguans is where you'll be suited best, which is awfully convenient as they have plenty of maduro available! :yo:


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## MidwestToker (Sep 14, 2016)

SeanTheEvans said:


> I think you've known the real answer here all along, perhaps you just didn't want to admit it to yourself quite yet. No, Cuban cigars will not be equivalent to a powerhouse Nicaraguan Maduro. Pretty much never, in my experience. It's a whole different flavor profile in general, particularly if you're talking about the Cuban Twang. Don't want to overgeneralize, but if you want big power notes in a cigar, perhaps Nicaraguans is where you'll be suited best, which is awfully convenient as they have plenty of maduro available! :yo:


Yep. And I really love the CCs that I've smoked. They're incredibly nuanced and unique. I guess it's just changing those expectations. That's what's so amazing about cigars. The terroir is real!


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## Champagne InHand (Sep 14, 2015)

I can tell you from having been to Esteli, not just the town, but the departemente (state) which includes the Jalapa region and borders Honduras that it almost impossible to grow lighter shades of tobacco leaf because of the cooler temperatures and shortened growing season. 

Why I really like Illusione Epernay that have a true Nica cafe rosado wrapper, those leafs are most likely grown on much smaller tobacco farms much farther South in places like Ometepe Island where it's warmer but more chance for fungal issues so product is quite limited. 

I have bought a couple boxes of the COH Maduro 5 and while aged for those 5 years they are extremely different from other Maduro cigars. They are extremely smooth without going overboard with high powered nicotine. I compared them once to an Oliva V Melanio, but just much more smooth, if monolithic. 

I like them but wouldn't pay the premium to buy the Genios Maduro again. 

Many Nica puro cigars that aren't Maduro seem to have a stronger saltiness. 

To see the different tabacaleras in Nica and know the lack of true infrastructure is to understand why Dion Giolito and others actually roll just above in Honduras. There is no real mail delivery. All trucking, which is minimal is private. 

It's kind of nuts. 

It's completely okay in Nica to blend other countries tobaccos that come across the border especially from Honduras and the North as Honduras, Guatemala, El Salvador and Nica try to work together on customs and immigration as well as taking advantage of the Pan-American highway. 

Nicas biggest thing is avoidance of any gang affiliation which is a major problem both North and South. They would rather government license families and companies to do in country transport through the chicken buses. 

I've found that I actually prefer the lighter claro and rosados as much as anything from Habanos but darker wrappers just seem to have different flavor profiles. 

The new movement to cash in on añejado reminds me too much of the tequila business where a lot of coloring had nothing to do at all with barrel aging in oak but caramel color addition. 

I will not be buying Cuban añejado cigars as I prefer to age the entire cigar myself. At least I know that's completely legit. 

In C.A., nothing is enforced in any real way unless it's by the gangs. It's sad but true. Save Nica. 


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## LeatherNeck (Feb 8, 2017)

Champagne InHand said:


> I can tell you from having been to Esteli, not just the town, but the departemente (state) which includes the Jalapa region and borders Honduras that it almost impossible to grow lighter shades of tobacco leaf because of the cooler temperatures and shortened growing season.
> 
> Why I really like Illusione Epernay that have a true Nica cafe rosado wrapper, those leafs are most likely grown on much smaller tobacco farms much farther South in places like Ometepe Island where it's warmer but more chance for fungal issues so product is quite limited.
> 
> ...


Very nice write-up here brother. I found it very interesting.


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

SeanTheEvans said:


> I think you've known the real answer here all along, perhaps you just didn't want to admit it to yourself quite yet. No, Cuban cigars will not be equivalent to a powerhouse Nicaraguan Maduro. Pretty much never, in my experience. It's a whole different flavor profile in general, particularly if you're talking about the Cuban Twang. Don't want to overgeneralize, but if you want big power notes in a cigar, perhaps Nicaraguans is where you'll be suited best, which is awfully convenient as they have plenty of maduro available! :yo:


_THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:vs_cool:
_


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