# Cigar smoking and life insurance implications



## jswaykos (Oct 26, 2010)

So I will soon be subjected to a physical and medical background check for life insurance. I'm clean, no surgeries, nothing permanent, blah blah blah. I can assume that I'll be asked whether or not I'm a smoker. My thoughts are no, I'm not, since I don't smoke cigarettes.

But what, generally, are the 'rules' with regards to cigars?

I'm not asking for specific 'legal' advice, just more about what is/isn't allowed, IF cigars are even regulated, etc.


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## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

"Specifically", when it comes to insurance policies, ALWAYS say "NO" to any smoking questions. The onus of "proof" then resides with them.

You don't smoke cigarettes. You wouldn't tell an anesthesiologist to give you more oxygen because you smoke. No chest x-ray, or respiratory scan will indicate otherwise. Therefore, you're not a "smoker".

Insurance companies are evil minions of the Dark Lord. They are best treated as such.


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## wahoofever (Jul 5, 2011)

There was a pretty decent thread here recently about this subject.

What I took from the thread was state the truth. The last thing you want is a claim denied.

This is the thread: http://www.cigarforums.net/forums/vb/general-discussion/294834-life-insurance.html


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## LBTRS (May 19, 2011)

Can they detect nicotine in the blood they draw?


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## karatekyle (Nov 2, 2010)

LBTRS said:


> Can they detect nicotine in the blood they draw?


Yep. They search for the products of nicotine metabolization. But just like Don said, proving it is their job.


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## gasdocok (May 14, 2011)

well since I posted the most recent thread I can remember about this topic I guess I'll chime in.

From what I have been told, they can identify nicotine in your system from the blood/urine tests. If you come up positive and you put "non-smoker" on your application, yer fukt.

If you said non-smoker and then you die of something that could have been "smoking related" based on whatever retarded insurance company list of smoking related causes includes, yer screwed because then you lied on your application and they will deny you.

I am going with lincoln financial since they will insure cigar smokers as non-smokers even if you tell them you smoke cigars. there may be other companies that do the same but this is the one my agent recommended (he's an independent agent).

Also, I guess I have some expertise in another area mentioned on this thread as well. Don, I would hope that you WOULD tell your anesthesiologist that you smoke cigars since it DOES alter your responses to anesthesia/intubation/etc and it is good information to have. It is MUCH less advisable to lie to your doctor than it is to not lie to your insurance agent.


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## piperdown (Jul 19, 2009)

There are other forms of tobacco besides cigarettes and cigars. Most of the forms I've seen specifically ask about smoking...pop positive, say you chew or use snuff.

Other forms that some buddies of mine have filled out ask about tobacco usage...form of tobacco, how much per day, how much per week and so on. On those...couple of them say they don't but are using the patch or the gum...they are adults and can say what they want, its not for me to have a say.

Pharmacist guy i knew looked up how long metabolites of nicotine are present and he told me seven days...but that was 17 years ago and tests have gotten much more sensitive. Could be two weeks but I wouldn't know unless I looked around on pubmed for a while.

This is all just fyi.


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## ckay (May 10, 2010)

They don't test for nicotine but cotinine. Anyone 40 and under looking for term insurance, MetLife is offering their term policy up to $500k and 20yrs with only a phone interview. No blood, no urine. 

Just FYI.


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## tpharkman (Feb 20, 2010)

Just because you smoke or use tobacco of any kind doesn't result in one being uninsurable. What it often results in is a higher premium determined from actuarial tables based upon life expectancy of tobacco users. Here is an example that may define the point I am trying to make.

40 year old man who is a cigar smoker fills out application stating he doesn't smoke. Ten years later is diagnosed with oral cancer and dies. Examination and evidence collected suggests that in fact this person was a smoker and indeed succombs to an illness that could be a direct result of his enjoyment of cigars. In most cases the insurance company will pay the death benefit minus the difference of the rated premiums. So if he took out a policy with a $100k death benefit at a non-smoking premium of $35 per month but the smoking rate would have been twice that at $70 per month the insurance company would calculate the added premiums that should have been paid and subtract that from the actual death benefit.

So again, unless things have changed recently tobacco use alone is not going to make you uninsurable. It will make it more costly. It is very similar to the suicide clause most life insurance policies contain. The majority of them have a predetermined amount of time from policy inception, specified in the policy, where if a person chooses to commit suicide the death benefit will not be paid. So if you take out a policy today and ten years from now you start smoking a carton of cigs a day and die ten years later they still have to pay the death benefit.

The key is to read the small print with any policy you purchase. Term insurance is relatively easy to get and for the most part inexpensive because over 98 percent of the policies written never result in a claim. The majority of the policies lapse before the person dies and insurance companies know that.

Insurance companies and casinos have something in common, their customers mostly always lose. The main difference is that death is inevitable but you can make the choice to never walk into a casino.


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## LBTRS (May 19, 2011)

What if you had never smoked when you bought a 30 year level term policy and have since taken up cigar smoking? Are you supposed to inform the insurer that you now smoke cigars so they can raise your premium?


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## crazystix (Oct 13, 2011)

LBTRS said:


> What if you had never smoked when you bought a 30 year level term policy and have since taken up cigar smoking? Are you supposed to inform the insurer that you now smoke cigars so they can raise your premium?


No, once you are insured you can begin smoking the next day and it should not impact your policy. As long as you can answer NO to the question "Have you used tobacco products during the past 12 months?" at the time you take out the policy, you are good to go, and do not need to inform your insurer that you began smoking after you took out the policy.

Strongly advise against answering this question untruthfully. The result could be very bad for your beneficiaries. Even if you don't have anything in your system, I'll bet that your credit card history will prove that you were using tabacco products at the time you answered the question. Just my 2 cents.


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## asmartbull (Aug 16, 2009)

*Ask for a sample policy.*

Most agents have them in their desk.
Look at the "incontestability" clause. Most companies have it at 2 yrs.
That means that if you die withing 2 yrs and it is not an accident,
they will investigate. If you lied, but it is determined that they still would have issued the policy,,,,, based on premiums paid, they will will lower the benefit.


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## MaxTheBunny (Sep 6, 2011)

Like the others say , yes it can be detected and vastly influence your premium. That said I believe you only need to worry if your required to take a physical ect. In such cases don't smoke 2 months prior to the test to be safe


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## anonobomber (Aug 29, 2011)

This says 7-10 days should be sufficient so long as you're not Asian: Google Answers: Nicotine and Cotinine tests


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## smokinpeace (Jan 28, 2010)

Prudential is another provider that is cigar smoker friendly. I went with them because I would rather have it on the record that I smoke, than risk my families well being. It kind of defeats the point in my mind. Prudential disqualifies cigar smokers from their highest level of health but other than that it does not effect your premium. So as someone a little overweight (hey, I'm working on it) I was not at that health level anyway so there was NO additional cost related to my smoking.


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

Herf N Turf said:


> Insurance companies are evil minions of the Dark Lord. They are best treated as such.


_THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!_

:rockon::rockon::rockon::rockon::rockon:


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## owaindav (Mar 7, 2010)

If I remember correctly from when I was an agent, I believe you can smoke up to 4 cigars a year and not be considered a smoker. Any more than that and your rates jump.

They absolutely test for metabolized nic in the blood tests. And if you put NON on your app and they come up with nic they will go head over heals to find every single thing out about your health history. If you put Smoker and the find nic they don't feel like you lied and their guard doesn't go up as much.

So be honest or just don't smoke for a couple weeks before your test.


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## HMMWV (Jan 22, 2010)

As others may not have said but it should be implied if you lie about smoking *YOU* don't have to worry... your beneficiaries do! You're dead. :rip:

I changed life insurance companies not to long ago and 'fest up that I was an "occasional" cigar smoker and still got the policy. Premiums were lower, benefits better than my old policy (the reason for changing). I did restrain from drinking and smoking for a week prior to blood and pee testing for the physical just in case.


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## asmartbull (Aug 16, 2009)

On a side note...
There is a Medical Information Bureau ( MIB)
Basically,a place where insurers share medical info.
If you are listed as a smoker with one of the companies,,,chances are all subscribing members will have acces to the same info.....


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## wahoofever (Jul 5, 2011)

asmartbull said:


> On a side note...
> There is a Medical Information Bureau ( MIB)
> Basically,a place where insurers share medical info.
> If you are listed as a smoker with one of the companies,,,chances are all subscribing members will have acces to the same info.....


I've often wondered about that.

Sounds like the credit agencies. So how does one get re-rated?

RE:COTININE

Cotinine testing- can light smokers still pass the tests? - Yahoo! Answers

RE: MIB FILE REQUEST

http://www.mib.com/html/request_your_record.html


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## asmartbull (Aug 16, 2009)

wahoofever said:


> I've often wondered about that.
> 
> Sounds like the credit agencies. So how does one get re-rated?
> 
> ...


There is no rating since many carriers treat things differently.
The info is just there for subcribing members to access.


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## jswaykos (Oct 26, 2010)

For the record, I'm not really trying to "cheat" anyone. I don't think I should try to claim non-smoker. I had a cigar Sunday, realized I'd be doing blood testing Saturday, and was just concerned about the implications of declaring that I'm an "occasional" cigar smoker. Of course I'll underestimate the total to make sure I'm in the 'safe' zone, but I just don't think it'd be worth it to lie and risk 1) nicotine/cotinine showing up or 2) ever dieing with a trace of it in my blood, thus putting my beneficiaries at risk.

Probably more of a panic reaction than anything, but if they come back with a HUGE premium because of it, it'll be hard to justify continuing with this hobby knowing that my family is literally paying for it. For what it's worth, I will be getting a term policy through Northwestern Mutual.


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## Pianoman178 (Oct 16, 2011)

Even if you claim you aren't a smoker and they find nicotine in your system...so what?

What if you spent the last 24 hours in a smoke-filled casino? Or you were at the bar and 25 people were smoking around you?

I don't think finding it in your system means anything.


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## woodted (Jan 3, 2009)

Herf N Turf said:


> "Specifically", when it comes to insurance policies, ALWAYS say "NO" to any smoking questions. The onus of "proof" then resides with them.
> 
> You don't smoke cigarettes. You wouldn't tell an anesthesiologist to give you more oxygen because you smoke. No chest x-ray, or respiratory scan will indicate otherwise. Therefore, you're not a "smoker".
> 
> Insurance companies are evil minions of the Dark Lord. They are best treated as such.


Bad advice Don! Most life insurance companies do charge extra for smoking or tobacco use of any kind. If you lie on the application and die within the first 2 years (incontestability clause) the company can deny the claim and just refund the premiums paid. Anytime after the 2 years what you said on the application is irrelevant. You can even commit suicide and would be covered! I assume the OP was looking to buy life insurance to protect his family. If he's gone, and all they receive if a refund of premiums, they'll be the ones that suffer.
That being said, there are companies out there that do not consider cigar smokers to be smokers and will give them preferred life rates. If for some reason you do not trust the agent you're working with, get a different agent. We're like flies, there all over the place!
Being one of the agents for the evil minions for the last 38 years I've been called worst but not when I've delivered checks to a grieving widow or to someone whose house has burned to the ground! It's just part of the business.


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## owaindav (Mar 7, 2010)

Pianoman178 said:


> Even if you claim you aren't a smoker and they find nicotine in your system...so what?
> 
> What if you spent the last 24 hours in a smoke-filled casino? Or you were at the bar and 25 people were smoking around you?
> 
> I don't think finding it in your system means anything.


 That's exactly the kind of thing they're looking for. If you have enough nicotine in your system from just hanging out with smokers then there's the possibility that your lifestyle may classify you as a higher risk.

Your application is as much to discover what kind of lifestyle you lead and to see if you're going to try to defraud them as it is to get vital information such as age, height, etc.


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## NuG (Sep 1, 2009)

Go through with the medical exam and see what they come back with. If they rate you as a smoker you have options of paying a higher premium or going to a cigar friendly company. 

When I got my term I told them I smoked on a occasion and they let it slide. It was through mass mutual. Let us know how it turns out


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## tpharkman (Feb 20, 2010)

Pianoman178 said:


> Even if you claim you aren't a smoker and they find nicotine in your system...so what?
> 
> What if you spent the last 24 hours in a smoke-filled casino? Or you were at the bar and 25 people were smoking around you?
> 
> I don't think finding it in your system means anything.


To add to Dave's response, these tests are dead-nuts accurate. I would argure that when you used to be able to smoke in bowling alley's that they could tell the non-smoker how many nights he spent in the alley just by the level in his blood.

The old argument, "it's just second hand smoke", has been negated by the technology of the testing equipment.


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## rnc062902 (Apr 27, 2010)

Joe,

I have been i the life insurance indusrty for a decade so let me give you the right answer. Most comapnies will allow a certain level of Cigars to be smoked and still give you non smoker rates (typically 2 per month) ask your agent and they will know the answer, if they do not get a new agent. As to not disclosing it and it being found: the comapny can either deny you or calssify you as a smoker both of which will be on your MIB (Medical Information Buearu) Record, used by all insurance companies when applying for life insurance.

There is a consistability period (2 years) of which the comapny will do a complete background check on you if you die prior to that period. after that period, it will not matter what you do or did, etc.

depending on your age and health the smoker rate could be much more or not much more if you are young and get a preferred smoker rating or if you are just a casual smoker and not deemed a cigar smoker by the company then the rate will be what was quoted. again ask your agent what the difference in rates would be prior to committing to a policy. If Mass Mutual does not have a cigar threshold, find a A-Rated company that does. DO NOT sacrifice a tobacco free rate by doing business with a company rated under an A; you want the comapny to be in business and pay the claim when you die.

long story short, be honest on your application. I have seen claims denied for not disclosing info on an application and a policy holder dying during the contestability period.

i hope this helps



jswaykos said:


> For the record, I'm not really trying to "cheat" anyone. I don't think I should try to claim non-smoker. I had a cigar Sunday, realized I'd be doing blood testing Saturday, and was just concerned about the implications of declaring that I'm an "occasional" cigar smoker. Of course I'll underestimate the total to make sure I'm in the 'safe' zone, but I just don't think it'd be worth it to lie and risk 1) nicotine/cotinine showing up or 2) ever dieing with a trace of it in my blood, thus putting my beneficiaries at risk.
> 
> Probably more of a panic reaction than anything, but if they come back with a HUGE premium because of it, it'll be hard to justify continuing with this hobby knowing that my family is literally paying for it. For what it's worth, I will be getting a term policy through Northwestern Mutual.


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## jswaykos (Oct 26, 2010)

rnc062902 said:


> Joe,
> 
> I have been i the life insurance indusrty for a decade so let me give you the right answer. Most comapnies will allow a certain level of Cigars to be smoked and still give you non smoker rates (typically 2 per month) ask your agent and they will know the answer, if they do not get a new agent. As to not disclosing it and it being found: the comapny can either deny you or calssify you as a smoker both of which will be on your MIB (Medical Information Buearu) Record, used by all insurance companies when applying for life insurance.
> 
> ...


Helps a lot - thanks! I am not a daily smoker. Weekly, at most, but 1-2 per month is probably the 'average' over time. I am not going to claim a total non-smoker, because I don't want to jeopardize the entire point of the life insurance policy - the insurance for my beneficiaries.

Thanks for the input! And I suppose, in the end, if I can't find a company to provide reasonable rates I'll just have to smoke more. You know, since I'll be paying for it! :woohoo:


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## Richterscale (Jan 8, 2011)

Be very VERY careful about omitting anything.. if you ever get into trouble and have a significant claim they will investigate and if it's found that you have left anything out and lied with regards to the Statement of Health you can and will be denied. Don't give them any reason to call you a liar. It's not worth it. trust me.


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## CraigJS (Dec 23, 2009)

Can they require chest xrays if there is any question?


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## c2000 (Oct 16, 2003)

When getting any kind of insurance and the last purchase was nursing home insurance I just tell them I smoke about a cigar a day and pay the extra fee..Now I don't have to worry about defrauding them and it coming back to bite me in the ass..........


Jerry in Minnesota.


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## Tarks (Mar 3, 2009)

Herf N Turf said:


> *"Specifically", when it comes to insurance policies, ALWAYS say "NO" to any smoking questions. The onus of "proof" then resides with them.*
> 
> You don't smoke cigarettes. You wouldn't tell an anesthesiologist to give you more oxygen because you smoke. No chest x-ray, or respiratory scan will indicate otherwise. Therefore, you're not a "smoker".
> 
> Insurance companies are evil minions of the Dark Lord. They are best treated as such.


With all due respect Don, I think this is terrible advise. What's the point of purchasing life insurance? Of course it's to ensure your loved ones (beneficiaries) are taken care of in the event that you pass on. Lying on your policy is putting everything at risk. And yes, the insurance company will do everything they can to prove you are a cigar smoker, including looking at your posts on cigar forums to prove you are a cigar smoker. Is it worth it? Not for me. No thanks. Most insurance policies will allow up to 12 cigars per year before they consider you a cigar smoker. If you smoke more than 12 per year you then fall under the "Cigar Smoking" policy. It would be unwise to lie, IMO. The difference in premiums isn't worth jeopardizing my families future if I pass on.

Also, there is a difference between a cigarette smoker and a cigar smoker as far as the insurance companies are concerned. A cigar smoker's premiums will be far less than a cigarette smoker's.

Just my opinion.


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## ghe-cl (Apr 9, 2005)

I think that if you just consider the ramifications, it makes absolutely no sense to lie about anything on an insurance application.


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