# Ammonia and the Un-rested Cigar



## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

I've probably bored the Dickens out of most of you with my rantings about resting, aging, final fermentation effects, etc. Most people just want to smoke cigars and not be bothered with whether it's rested, or aged, or whatever. Most of us just want to walk into our B&M, or bust open our latest online purchase and spark-up. Sadly, most who do this are oblivious to how a truly, properly-rested cigar tastes.

First off, ammonia is a byproduct of fermenting tobacco. Tobacco is fermented several times during the manufacturing process. The blender sniffs and tastes the mature tobacco, comes up with his masterpiece and sends it off to the roller. Here's where things get dicey. All that "perfectly aged" tobacco has to be re-wet in order to roll. This wetting kicks off another, final fermentation, which can last up to two years after the cigar is rolled. It gets even trickier than that! You can grab a cigar, straight off the rolling bench and smoke it and never taste the slightest hint of ammonia! This is simply because there hasn't been sufficient time for fermentation to occur, thus, no ammonia! It's only weeks, even months afterward, that the ammonia begins to be released.

Depending on how mature the tobaccos and how aggressively they're wetted, this ammonia can be anything from a kick in the face, to a very subtle, "off flavor". Ammonia is not easily detected by the tongue, but very easily detected by the olfactory sense. The ability to train the mouth to detect what the nose knows takes years.

Here's my quick and dirty method for discerning ammonia (and therefore an immature cigar). Light the cigar as you normally do and smoke it down until you've warmed the wrapper. As you smoke, smell the warm part of the wrapper. The heat will release whatever ammonia is left in the cigar and you will definitely smell it! One clue is if the cigar tends to taste a little "dry" or astringent. This is a motivator for me to sniff behind the cherry and more times than not, ammonia is revealed.

I try to leave everything alone for about a year, before I smoke it. In rare cases, I get really new cigars that haven't had time to enter the final fermentation and I will smoke one... and they can be fantastic. BUT! There is no getting around the fact that, eventually, every cigar will enter a final fermentation and release ammonia. Let them have a good nap. The result will be ever-so worth the wait.


----------



## tpharkman (Feb 20, 2010)

I love your idea and I think you are absolutely correct but what in the heck do I smoke in the mean time?


----------



## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

tpharkman said:


> I love your idea and I think you are absolutely correct but what in the heck do I smoke in the mean time?


Padrons


----------



## Mante (Dec 25, 2009)

Never boring Don, just educational. Well worded & explained once again. I think we are going to have to start calling you DON-101. To that end I am hot for teacher's avatar, not teacher! :wink::clap2:


----------



## Habanolover (Feb 22, 2006)

tpharkman said:


> I love your idea and I think you are absolutely correct but what in the heck do I smoke in the mean time?


Don is correct in his assessment however, what he is describing is more commonly noticed by the end user in Cuban cigars. While all tobacco goes through this process most non-Cuban cigars are aged for some time after being rolled. This of course varies between manufacturers but it does allow time for many of the gases to dissipate whereas Cuban cigars are basically rolled and shipped before this natural occurence has time to take place.

While you may still detect ammonia in some non-Cuban cigars it is much rarer than it is with Habanos.


----------



## Bigtotoro (Jul 5, 2009)

Thanks. +1


----------



## JGD (Mar 2, 2009)

Yes. Like always Don, well done.


----------



## salmonfly (Nov 11, 2009)

Tashaz said:


> Never boring Don, just educational. Well worded & explained once again. I think we are going to have to start calling you DON-101. To that end I am hot for teacher's avatar, not teacher! :wink::clap2:


+ 100% on what Warren has said, Don I learn a lot from just reading your threads/posts Bro.

CC SENSEI/DON:kev:


----------



## jakecartier3 (May 16, 2010)

Very good information, thank you.


----------



## Suzza (Mar 18, 2010)

Another valuable thread from Don! I say this one deserves a sticky.


----------



## ongreystreet (Nov 3, 2008)

I have to agree and disagree. I agree that all cigars NC and CC benefit from some extra aging, and not just because it magically makes them better.

But I also think that cigars can actually go thru multiple cycles of fermentation depending on how long they are stored and under what conditions (higher temp and humidity) and that smoking after or between these periods makes the cigar taste better because it's not in the process of fermentation and because it has already released some more harsh gases and nicoteen.

I've found that often over humidified smokes from your typical B&M are better smoked right away for rested.

I also have to disagree with the idea that NCs don't benefit from extra aging. I've had premium smokes go thru some heavy fermentation periods in my humidors to the point they've had to be relocated to their own humidor and the smell could burn your nostrils.

This is a great post because I often feel like there are way too many people on this board that miss out on some of the simple sciences of cigars(or just science in general) and it's a lot easier to care for and enjoy your cigars once you understand a few things about *how and why* a big ole green leaf can taste so good when smoked (and why it can also taste so bad).


----------



## Stinkdyr (Jun 19, 2009)

Devils Weed cigars are a classic example of stix you will want to rest for quite a while b4 you smoke them. That dry feeling in your mouth, slightly bitter taste, tingling tooth fillings.........it's all there.......ammonia.

Still, the cigar had some flavor that I can tell will be enjoyable....SOME DAY, just not yet.

So, I will push those to the back of my coolerdor to age for a year, then revisit.


----------



## clintgeek (May 8, 2010)

Herf N Turf said:


> Padrons


Why Padrons?


----------



## Stinkdyr (Jun 19, 2009)

clintgeek said:


> Why Padrons?


They are already aged perfectly when they arrive ROTT.


----------



## Benji (Jan 10, 2010)

ainkiller:


----------



## swingerofbirches (Jan 12, 2010)

Great post, Don! Informative as always!


----------



## StephenW (Apr 5, 2010)

Very informative Don. Thank you.


----------



## Cigary (Oct 19, 2007)

Love to read and learn about my favorite hobby and it's like storytime when Don starts talking. We're all students in this and to get more than a rudimentary knowledge of when to smoke our cigars is a bonus because we all want to make it a pleasurable experience. I've always known about the ammonia and have tasted it in cigars and thought WTF is this about? Being able to have the knowledge of when this stuff cycles thru and being able to skip this part will no doubt make my cigar experience much better esp. after spending the money we do. NC's probably don't require the same level of care as far as resting like our Habanos do but I still let em rest anyway because I have tasted that acrid ammonia in NC's as well and it ain't pleasant. Letting em rest for at least a month is a good discipline to learn and with experience you will know your stash and what taste best during the resting stage. Some taste good with only a month while others benefit with 3 and others with 6 and up to a year. It's your taste that is of concern and if you like your gars ROTT then you go with what you like.


----------



## mrreindeer (Sep 4, 2008)

Gary, did you say you like storytime??? :dance:

Man, I've got enough for a book with all these baby stories....yikes....now I just need to get the sleep (still) so I have the energy to write 'em down!

BTW, Don (OP), good post....I had no idea about this when I started up with cigars and boy, did I hate those ammonia dogs!

Er, still do, but I've learned to let 'em rest.

Now I'm having a hard time picturing you behind the cherry...do you actually stuff the thing up yer nose? :crazy: :smoke2::smoke2: :biglaugh: 

Sorry, couldn't resist....or get that image outta my head.


----------



## Cigary (Oct 19, 2007)

mrreindeer said:


> Gary, did you say you like storytime??? :dance:
> 
> Man, I've got enough for a book with all these baby stories....yikes....now I just need to get the sleep (still) so I have the energy to write 'em down!
> 
> ...


There he is!!! I thought we'd lost you to the sleep deprived study group that is in session every night for new parents? How ya feelin buddy? Been there done that...and you'll survive as we all do. However, it was the projectile doody that did me in and repainting of the walls afterwards, the clean up and my son had a penchant for urinating long distance when taking the diaper off...guess my fingers were a bit cold on those winter days and like a firehose...he hit the ceiling a few times. Proud of that boy! Good to see ya posting...don't be a stranger and we need some baby stories soon!


----------



## Rubix^3 (Nov 10, 2008)

In regards to non-cubans which have been rolled and then aged before shipping;
What chemical processes are these in from B&M/Retailer to our respective humidors?

I have rarely tasted any ammoniated flavors in nc, but I have noticed that they often change tremendously over time. From anywhere between 2 wks to a year, cigars go through a metamorphosis in which all flavors are softened and married.

I smoked an 1yr+ Oliva V Torpedo from my humidor recently, and it was smooth like wine! 

Also, even a peppery powerhouse like a DPG Blue mellows out tremendously after only a 8mo-yr.

Thanks Professor Don


----------



## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

And that's just it! We don't _taste_ it! What we taste is actually a lack of taste, a sort of "flat", or lifeless cigar. What actually kicked over the domino that caused this thread was a Rocky Patel Decade Robusto. This is supposed to be well-aged tobacco and to have had time to settle in. WELL... Not so, Rock'.

It had been quite a while since I'd smoked one of these, so I checked my notes. "Good smoke, but kind of an over-priced 1990." Hmmm... I like the 90 and aparently liked this cigar, so what was different? Sure enough, I crept along the stick from head to foot and what did I smell? Yup! Ammonia.

That cigar had been in my humidor since late Feb. The fermentation was still in full swing and cost the flavor tremendously.

The fact is that most of the process is complete after the first year, but can't be declared dead until the second.

What we think of as a "transformation of the tobaccos" the so-called "marrying" of flavors, more often than not is simply the cessation of fermentation, allowing the true flavors to shine through. A mere year or two is simply not enough time for the actual tobaccos to change much. Again, we don't taste the ammonia. We only detect it through "snorking", "retro-haling" whatever you want to call it, when it's very strong. The next time a cigar isn't delivering a fullness of flavor, do the test. Even if you've never detected ammonia in an un-rested cigar before, I bet you will now.


----------



## Rubix^3 (Nov 10, 2008)

Interesting Don.
I have some Padilla Miami left in my humidor since the fall. While I remember these being pretty full-flavored, the last one I smoked--about a month ago or so, was similar to your experience--flat!

This also happened to me this spring with 8mo old DPG JJ maduros. They only recently got the spice back full-swing.

Hmmm. My brain is processing...


----------



## Hemingway in Havana (Feb 27, 2009)

Rubix^3 said:


> Interesting Don.
> I have some Padilla Miami left in my humidor since the fall. While I remember these being pretty full-flavored, the last one I smoked--about a month ago or so, was similar to your experience--flat!


Just had a *Padilla Miami Toro* _yesterday_ and it was "flat". This is, indeed, _very_ interesting. Too bad _most_ *NC companies* _don't_ date stamp boxes (even singles!) the way that *Habanos* does. *That* sort of information _could and would _be _very_ helpful to a great majority of *BOTL's*.


----------



## KetherInMalkuth (Dec 17, 2009)

Are all Padrons aged after rolling or just the Anniversary? I got a box of Londres in Feb and there was a little slip of paper in the box with the rollers name or initials (can't remember which, it may have even been the inspector, been a few months) and the date. It was dated from January, 2010. Does that mean they were rolled previously and allowed to rest before being boxed, or were they actually rolled just a month before I got them? I haven't smoked any and was going to give them a year or so before diving into the box... but if they've already had a good rest I'll smoke em up now.


----------



## socapots (Feb 22, 2010)

another great post.
the amount of new things i learn on this site every time i come here is great. 
actually think i have some that my folks brought back from the states on their trip that are of the amonia variety. lol.

edit: and congrats to the dude who had the baby. im starting to get a bit nervous of my first born (only a few weeks away)


----------



## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

KetherInMalkuth said:


> Are all Padrons aged after rolling or just the Anniversary? I got a box of Londres in Feb and there was a little slip of paper in the box with the rollers name or initials (can't remember which, it may have even been the inspector, been a few months) and the date. It was dated from January, 2010. Does that mean they were rolled previously and allowed to rest before being boxed, or were they actually rolled just a month before I got them? I haven't smoked any and was going to give them a year or so before diving into the box... but if they've already had a good rest I'll smoke em up now.


They say so, but I preface this with saying that I believe NONE of the crap that cigar makers spout about their stuff.

I have never had a Padron deliver any hint of ammonia.

The proof of the puddin' is ONLY in the tastin'.


----------



## Elwin (Mar 7, 2010)

Bravo!
That is a fascinating read!

And this may well explain the strange, sharp, fermented smell of a box of yard gars I ordered a week ago. I was almost ready to chuck them, and then at the last minute decided to quarantine them in their own tupperdor.
We'll see what a few months in solitary confinement brings...

Thank you, Don.


----------



## Suzza (Mar 18, 2010)

So the rule that you should wait 2 weeks to a month before smoking a new cigar is nonsense? You should actually wait a year or your cigars won't be nearly as good? This reaks havoc on my universe!


----------



## Cigary (Oct 19, 2007)

Suzza said:


> So the rule that you should wait 2 weeks to a month before smoking a new cigar is nonsense? You should actually wait a year or your cigars won't be nearly as good? This reaks havoc on my universe!


Ha ha,,,let experience be your guide with any cigar and I never ( well unless it's a cigar emergency ) smoke any cigar that I buy online without it going thru a 30 day rest. When I buy one at a B&M I will smoke it there and am pretty content with them. Some cigars are much better at a certain rest period and you have to know your stock to assess that. I agree you can smoke a Padron right off the tree and you'll be ok but there are others out there where you get on the amonia train and it's just not a pleasant experience. Being able to have a good number of cigars coming in at varying time frames and then storing them will keep you where you need to be as far as flavor. I have several humidor set ups where they are at varying time set up...1 month, 2 months and so on. When they come in I put a band on them which is my "born on receiving date" which helps me from smoking them too soon. I call those periods where they aren't very good to smoke the "menopause period"...the wife thinks I have emotional issues when I start making those kinds of analogies. Hey, it works for me.


----------



## Suzza (Mar 18, 2010)

Cigary said:


> Ha ha,,,let experience be your guide with any cigar and I never ( well unless it's a cigar emergency ) smoke any cigar that I buy online without it going thru a 30 day rest. When I buy one at a B&M I will smoke it there and am pretty content with them. Some cigars are much better at a certain rest period and you have to know your stock to assess that. I agree you can smoke a Padron right off the tree and you'll be ok but there are others out there where you get on the amonia train and it's just not a pleasant experience. Being able to have a good number of cigars coming in at varying time frames and then storing them will keep you where you need to be as far as flavor. I have several humidor set ups where they are at varying time set up...1 month, 2 months and so on. When they come in I put a band on them which is my "born on receiving date" which helps me from smoking them too soon. I call those periods where they aren't very good to smoke the "menopause period"...the wife thinks I have emotional issues when I start making those kinds of analogies. Hey, it works for me.


Yeah I have a list on Microsoft Word with the dates I recieved each of my cigars.

Haha and "menopause period" is a good way to put it.


----------



## gator_79 (Sep 16, 2009)

Verry well written...Thanks. Actually I have never detected any amonia from a NC cigar. I always let mine sit in my humi for at least a month for the humidity to stabilize. In CC's on the other hand, unless I try one and try are smoking well I will let them sit for at least a year.


----------



## Blackham (Mar 26, 2010)

thanks for the valuable information, was about to throw away my Punch London Club and HDM Dark Sumatra. They tasted good for the first three months and then suddenly lost all their flavors and become bitter

would these ammonia cigars "infect" the taste of other healthy cigars?


----------



## Tritones (Jun 23, 2010)

Don - excellent, informative post. Thanks!

All the instructions I read about using tupperdors and coolerdors warn about ammonia collecting inside if you don't open them once in a while. Now we noobs know where it comes from and why.

Thanks again, and keep sharing this stuff - it's never boring.


----------



## pomorider (Nov 14, 2009)

Don is right, resting makes a big different. I let my CC rested and the ammonia from them turned the humidifier gel brown. I rest all of my CC now.


----------



## Jeep (Jul 7, 2010)

I don't smoke too many cigar's right from the retailer unless it rests in my humidor. Regardless what it seems like, cigar merchants sell their stock pretty fast. It is unlikely that you will pick up a very well aged cigar from a merchant unless you are buying Davidoff'$. I have my humidors set up for aging and then a "go to" humidor that I keep cigars that I can smoke at any time. Either way, I really suggest aging.


----------



## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

Blackham said:


> thanks for the valuable information, was about to throw away my Punch London Club and HDM Dark Sumatra. They tasted good for the first three months and then suddenly lost all their flavors and become bitter
> 
> would these ammonia cigars "infect" the taste of other healthy cigars?


Good question. But, there's no absolute, definitive answer.

It really depends on how you store _your _cigars. If they are trapped, in a hermetically sealed sarcophagus, without any ventilation, or air exchange (like a small tupperdor), then, yes! You need to allow that ammonia to escape somehow. Usually, the regular opening and closing of your humidor is easily enough to allow the ammoniac gasses to be released from the container. However, for those putting multiple sticks in small tupperdors for long periods, the ammonia has no where to go and _will _linger every where, including inside the tobacco.

An important note:

*Not all cigars you get fresh out of a B&M have to be rested to be enjoyed. * Most NC come from the factory ready to smoke and can be enjoyed to the highest degree, until the final fermentation goes into full swing. Many of you have reported having LOVED a cigar that you smoked ROTT, but then it went south after a few months.

Once the cigar is rolled, ya gotta _think_, fermentation is slow to take hold. That freshly rolled cigar (read, freshly wetted) can take months for the subsequent fermentation to kick-off. During this time, is when NC cigars _do_ smoke GREAT, and keep a lot of us buying and smoking them. It's only when we come _back _to them, several months later, that they have become flat and sometimes nasty.

Point is, don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Let nature take it's course and smoke everything according to it's own time.

Don't worry. Be Happy!


----------



## 1029henry (Jan 18, 2010)

Boy! Now I have to quit my job in order to categorize, catalog, rotate, and smoke all my cigars. I'm exhausted!! LOL!


----------



## phager (Jun 28, 2010)

Thank you for all this great information. This is incredibly useful, particularly for a noob like myself. I never even thought of resting my cigars until this thread brought the thought about.


----------



## centralharbor (May 20, 2010)

So, is this the excuse I have to give to buy boxes upon boxes of padrons so I can let my stash rest? Sounds like a plan! Good info!


----------



## chickenriceboo (May 20, 2010)

Fantastic information and makes perfect sense! Thank you!


----------



## Enlil (Jun 10, 2010)

Herf N Turf said:


> I've probably bored the Dickens out of most of you with my rantings about...


From what I can tell, every time Don uses a preface like that, it means that there is good/valuable info headed our direction. I also like the way Don can phrase things so that details which might be kind of hard to follow are presented in a very understandable way. It can be easy to lose understandability/focus by wading into side topics, and Don has a knack for getting the relevant parts of his chosen subjects across, without undue extraneous detail.



Tritones said:


> Thanks again, and keep sharing this stuff - it's never boring.


+1 - If this stuff qualifies as boring in your neck of the woods, I would like to volunteer to be bored to tears.


----------



## Jack Straw (Nov 20, 2008)

Herf N Turf said:


> Padrons


I love this post.


----------



## fiddlegrin (Feb 8, 2009)

+1 ! :nod:

PufferFish don't ruin Cigars...

*Amonia Does!!*

Thanks for bringing it up Don:thumb: :bump2:


----------



## Stinkdyr (Jun 19, 2009)

Blackham said:


> thanks for the valuable information, was about to throw away my Punch London Club and HDM Dark Sumatra. They tasted good for the first three months and then suddenly lost all their flavors and become bitter
> 
> would these ammonia cigars "infect" the taste of other healthy cigars?


um, yeah, um.......scuuuuuuuuuuuze me. but b4 you go throwing out any Hoyo, send them to me!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

Blackham said:


> would these ammonia cigars "infect" the taste of other healthy cigars?


In most cases, where we keep cigars in humidors, which are frequently opened, no. In the case of letting cigars sit in a sealed cooler, bags, or tupper-dors, for months at a time, yes.


----------



## Entan (Jul 20, 2010)

On several occasions I would try a cigar from a sampler pack, like it, and order more only to receive cigars that have an odd "green\wet" smell about them. I learned through experimentation that if left alone, the smell can go away in as little as a month and the cigar will taste great again.

I didn't know what was causing it until I read this post. So I just wanted to say thanks.


----------



## dubgeek (Jun 25, 2010)

Great thread. Patience is a virtue! Thanks for the info Don.


----------



## deep (Mar 13, 2009)

I know this is an old guys, but I wanted to bump it and add a comment.

For about 18 months now I have let nearly everything I smoke rest for a year or more, with at lease 3 of the last moths without the cello and personally it has made a huge diffenence. Don, was very kind and helpful to me on this situation with some info through PM when I started this help me on my way. 

It is at the point now that when I try something at a B&M, I can taste the amonia on the cigar, and not only can it dumb down the flavor but afterword leaves a taste in my mouth for the rest of the day.

I was lucky that I had considerable older sticks when I started this so it was not as hard as someone who is just starting, but I encourge anyone to try and keep a few stick for a year and then see if it make the cigar more enjoyable to you.

It has made my smoking better, Thanks again Don!


----------



## emk (May 4, 2009)

Joe, I think it wise & kind of you to bring this back up. Despite the good advice of Don & others, it is easy for us to be impatient. Reminders are useful.
I lack discipline; so, I have cigars in a locker 300 miles from where I live to keep me from smoking them before they are ready. As for cellophane off, I am still not sure if it effects how the cigars age very much; however, when I open a humidor holding cigars w/o the cello, it's a pretty sight & their aroma is delightful.


----------



## 1029henry (Jan 18, 2010)

A timely bump of a very informative thread!


----------



## gahdzila (Apr 29, 2010)

+1 excellent thread, well worth the bump!


----------



## RGraphics (Apr 9, 2011)

Thanks for bringing this up. This is great information that I lacked and has kept me from getting the most out of my cigars.


----------



## Strickland (Feb 15, 2011)

I was one of the first 100 to sign up for a free Alec Bradley American Classic. There was a mix-up and long-story-short I just got mine last week. I opened the cello and took a whiff and I could definitely smell ammonia. I think that was the first time I could do that with a cigar. Think I'll leave them in the humi for a few months...


----------



## NoShhhSherlock (Mar 30, 2011)

Herf N Turf said:


> I've probably bored the Dickens out of most of you with my rantings about resting, aging, final fermentation effects, etc. Most people just want to smoke cigars and not be bothered with whether it's rested, or aged, or whatever. Most of us just want to walk into our B&M, or bust open our latest online purchase and spark-up. Sadly, most who do this are oblivious to how a truly, properly-rested cigar tastes.
> 
> First off, ammonia is a byproduct of fermenting tobacco. Tobacco is fermented several times during the manufacturing process. The blender sniffs and tastes the mature tobacco, comes up with his masterpiece and sends it off to the roller. Here's where things get dicey. All that "perfectly aged" tobacco has to be re-wet in order to roll. This wetting kicks off another, final fermentation, which can last up to two years after the cigar is rolled. It gets even trickier than that! You can grab a cigar, straight off the rolling bench and smoke it and never taste the slightest hint of ammonia! This is simply because there hasn't been sufficient time for fermentation to occur, thus, no ammonia! It's only weeks, even months afterward, that the ammonia begins to be released.
> 
> ...


Really good info Don, thank you for the post!


----------



## ko4000 (May 12, 2011)

Ran across this thread a couple weeks ago when I searched topics on resting cigars. Truely priceless info here


----------



## Grimalkin (Sep 7, 2011)

Thanks for the very informative post! For the new guys starting out (like me) it can be hard to spend a bunch of money on cigars you won't touch for a 6-12 months, but I think it's worth it. 

At the moment I only have a small tupperdore that can hold 3 boxes of cigars (75). So I think I'm going to start buying Pardon #2000 and let the other 2 boxes rest until I get more storage space.

Another note, winter is coming and its a great time to buy some smokes that you won't be able to smoke until It gets warm again because of the cold (especially for us Canadians). Make a box purchase in November and you're basically forced to let it age until at least spring!


----------



## AStateJB (Oct 13, 2011)

I found this thread to be EXTREMELY informative so... BUMP! Thanks for the great info Don!


----------



## rmduane (Jun 3, 2011)

Good time to ask this question. A few months ago I bought a 3pack of davidoff millennium robustos. I lit one up and immediately was wondering what was wrong. The weird feeling on my teeth and a taste that was not cigar. These sticks are well out of my price range, so you can imagine I was less than thrilled. After reading posts about ammonia I figured I would let them sit till next summer. Can these sticks have that strong of an ammonia taste,or am I nuts? Help me.


----------



## Steven (Aug 29, 2011)

I've used your advice and now can correlate when a cigar is absolutely horrible to me is when it still has ammonia. Thanks Don. I just wish I could figure it out before I light it up.


----------



## miket156 (Feb 2, 2011)

Thanks Don, this is a great thread! I am among those that just wants to buy some boxes of cigars and fire them up. Not much for patience and have even less money. Over time, I've been able to store a number of cigars for 3 or 4 months. I am hoping to let some of these select cigars sit for 3 or 4 months more and then give one or two a try. 

I suppose having a stash of "daily smokes" that are expendable is the best method of preserving the other stock that is worth aging. 


Cheers,


Mike T.


----------



## rhetorik (Jun 6, 2011)

Nice post Don. I definitely agree with you, but it's so hard to resist trying at least one when I get a new shipment  Actually I enjoy seeing the difference a few months of rest compares with ROTT. And of course a few years, if I'm able to wait that long.


----------



## tiger187126 (Jul 17, 2010)

Herf N Turf said:


> Padrons


1) you are absolutely correct

2) i've been away for a little while, what the heck happened to padron. it seems like they're harder to find and some places (like CI) don't even sell boxes anymore. what's changed?


----------



## rhetorik (Jun 6, 2011)

tiger187126 said:


> 1) you are absolutely correct
> 
> 2) i've been away for a little while, what the heck happened to padron. it seems like they're harder to find and some places (like CI) don't even sell boxes anymore. what's changed?


I hadn't really thought about it, but you're right. It is harder to find them these days.


----------



## tiger187126 (Jul 17, 2010)

rhetorik said:


> I hadn't really thought about it, but you're right. It is harder to find them these days.


they've always been a limited production company but i just see less and less around. then again i haven't found a good cigar shop up here, probably because i think they have the insane tobacco tax that maryland was going to implement right before i left.


----------



## usmcxlv (Apr 14, 2012)

Thanks Don, for this cogent explanation of the ammonia in un-rested cigars.


----------



## hardgainer83 (Apr 14, 2013)

ko4000 said:


> Truely priceless info here


Can't say it better myself!! All this explains some memorable experiences, and now I understand even better the importance of letting them rest enough! Thank you very much!!


----------



## bradley (Mar 30, 2013)

This post has helped clarify most of my concerns about aging. I had already been planning on slowly building a stockpile by buying more then I smoke to at some point have cigars that have been resting for at least a year. Now I know more about the importance of this. I do have some concerns still though such as are there any cigars that do not improve with aging? The other thing is I had a cigar the other day that started out fine then turn foul it was sour and nasty could this be a cigar that's in full tilt fermentation or was it just really bad cigar?


----------



## madbricky (Mar 29, 2013)

Like Bradley said. I am really concerned about telling when the cigar is ready to smoke. The idea that I must rest a big cigar for a year or more is intolerable to me and most normal people trying to build a collection. Why is it not widely known that fresh NC cigars may require this resting period to smoke? How do these experts review new cigars?. Lots of common sense questions about telling the tale on the new cigar. 
I smoke mainly 40 gauge and under and unwrap most of the larger ones to get up to my humidity preferences. This getting into the larger cigar thing is an anxious endeavor. I already have a preferred taste for aged Dominican with the likes of a VS 55 corojo. It must be done aging if its been Aged?


----------



## madbricky (Mar 29, 2013)

In theory doesn't freezing arrest the fermenting cigar for a short period? Taking the cello off allow venting of gases quicker? And if you vacuum seal cigars does that evacuated this noxious gas? 
I could do all these in theory and have a good smoke in a few weeks?


----------



## madbricky (Mar 29, 2013)

OOps double clicked


----------



## ShotgunLuckey (Jul 19, 2013)

Thanks for the information....:beerchug:


----------



## Tat2demon (Jul 21, 2013)

Thanks for bumping this up. Hadnt seen it before. Wonderful write up!


----------



## millsmobile (Aug 22, 2013)

Lots of good info here! Question - is there a way to sniff out the ammonia on an unlit cigar, or do you have to smoke it to find out?


----------



## zdpa (Aug 1, 2013)

Is this ammonia anything to do with a bitter celery type of flavour on the tongue? Any idea what that might be?


----------



## JustinThyme (Jun 17, 2013)

That actually sounds like the stick is too wet to me. I got that a good bit when I had my humi up at 70%. Burn issues and a bitter/acrid taste.


----------



## zdpa (Aug 1, 2013)

JustinThyme said:


> That actually sounds like the stick is too wet to me. I got that a good bit when I had my humi up at 70%. Burn issues and a bitter/acrid taste.


Thanks Justin, I've noticed this less since getting my humidor set up (before I had them in a bag with a wet sponge which likely over humidified them). Learning every day


----------



## ryanmac45 (Jul 22, 2013)

This post has really got me thinking, I have had a few smokes that changed recently. I thought I was crazy, because I remembered them being much more flavorful when I tried them the first time. I'll just rotate them to the back and forget about them for a while. Thanks.


----------



## Btubes18 (Aug 21, 2011)

Tatuaje Ambos Mundos are definitely like this and need the rest. I smoke a few ROTT and VERY strong Ammonia...waited a few months and they were much better. I bet why you can get them so cheap is because people smoke them to early and don't want to wait. They are really good sticks with like a year rest, so glad I purchased a box.


----------



## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

madbricky said:


> In theory doesn't freezing arrest the fermenting cigar for a short period? Taking the cello off allow venting of gases quicker? And if you vacuum seal cigars does that evacuated this noxious gas?
> I could do all these in theory and have a good smoke in a few weeks?


NO



millsmobile said:


> Lots of good info here! Question - is there a way to sniff out the ammonia on an unlit cigar, or do you have to smoke it to find out?


NO. Heat is key.



zdpa said:


> Is this ammonia anything to do with a bitter celery type of flavour on the tongue? Any idea what that might be?


YES


----------



## baust55 (Sep 8, 2013)

I am learning tons here on the Forum . 


AUSTIN


----------



## Cigar5150 (Aug 19, 2013)

Wow. Great thread. I'm glad I have a decent supply of Padrones on hand, and also enjoy them a lot. I've definitely noticed a strong ammonia scent from one of my humis. I'll have to check a few of the sticks to see which ones are the culprits and give them extra time. Thanks Don! Any thoughts on infused cigars and aging/resting? I don't smoke them, just interested.


----------



## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

Cigar5150 said:


> Wow. Great thread. I'm glad I have a decent supply of Padrones on hand, and also enjoy them a lot. I've definitely noticed a strong ammonia scent from one of my humis. I'll have to check a few of the sticks to see which ones are the culprits and give them extra time. Thanks Don! Any thoughts on infused cigars and aging/resting? I don't smoke them, just interested.


This is on the ragged edge of this thread's topic, but infused cigars are always best served fresh, since the flavorings degrade rapidly.


----------



## Cigar5150 (Aug 19, 2013)

Good to know. Thanks again for the great info Don.


----------



## Ablaze_uas (Sep 13, 2013)

Wow, this is some great info! It's crazy the things you can learn around here just by reading through a few pages.

While most of my smokes have less than a few months on them, I'm sure glad I got some great sticks through the NST to enjoy.


----------



## madbricky (Mar 29, 2013)

Herf N Turf said:


> NO
> 
> NO. Heat is key.
> 
> YES


Holy necro quoting batman.....my cigars are now smoking fine as is my experience with ammonia. Found a cure, be patient, dont buy certain brands. Dont smoke wet cigars. Let your wife sniff suspects out if she raised babies and "nose" pee pee. You kill me Don, cant give you rg but I will when its recharged.


----------



## Broklynite (Oct 3, 2013)

Really wanted to say thank you for this thread. I was smoking a stick recently and realized I was smelling a strong ammonia odor and got a bit weirded out before I found the thread. 

Tangentially related, anyone interested in reading a 1 page summary of a scientific lecture in 1947 about tobacco fermentation can read it for free on readcube- google "the curing and fermentation of tobacco h. h. evers" and it's the second link. Sorry, I'm too new to be allowed to post the direct link . I think it's a fun and educational 5 minute read for newbies like me.


----------



## Old Smokey (Sep 13, 2013)

This has been a great informative thread. As a newbie I have much to learn.

I started out occasionally stopping by a B&M, buying a stick and putting a spark to it, with very mixed results in enjoyment. After reading this thread, I think some of what I didn't like in some cigar was outgassing of ammonia. 

Many thanks to Don for passing along great info, I never would have figured this stuff out on my own.


----------



## baust55 (Sep 8, 2013)

Ha I am Really CHEAP ! eeerrr umm I Mean THRIFTY ! I do like a Premium Cigar but I have been looking for cheaper one or two dollar sticks that are tasty . I just bought 4 bundles of twenty of some thrifty smokes that got good reviews . When I got the bundles I popped each one in a zip bag before I froze them with a hygrometer over night and they all seemed to be between 62% and 68% RH . I smelled them and detected no Ammonia . They are resting in the new humidor between 65% and 68% RH . I swill let them rest awhile . Hoping there will be no nasty ammonia when I smoke them .

AUSTIN


----------



## monsterBEN (Aug 10, 2011)

Anybody have some literature with sources citing tobacco fermentation after being rolled?


I was under the impression that fermentation requires very high moisture (much higher than in cigar boxes/humidors, very low oxygen (much lower than levels in rolled cigars), and high temperatures... Without these factors (i.e. normal humidor conditions), wouldn't fermentation stop and/or never re-start?

Why does the "6 mo/1yr" clock start when the cigars have been purchased and placed in our humidors? Who's to say they haven't been properly humidified in distribution/storage waiting to be sold for 6-9 months before we even get our hands on them?


----------



## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

monsterBEN said:


> Anybody have some literature with sources citing tobacco fermentation after being rolled?
> 
> I was under the impression that fermentation requires very high moisture (much higher than in cigar boxes/humidors, very low oxygen (much lower than levels in rolled cigars), and high temperatures... Without these factors (i.e. normal humidor conditions), wouldn't fermentation stop and/or never re-start?
> 
> Why does the "6 mo/1yr" clock start when the cigars have been purchased and placed in our humidors? Who's to say they haven't been properly humidified in distribution/storage waiting to be sold for 6-9 months before we even get our hands on them?


Well, the moisture comes from the fact that wrapper leaf is wetted, saturated really, to make it sufficiently pliable for rolling. This is what kicks off the final fermentation cycle. You don't need high heat for fermentation to occur. Room temperature is more than warm enough. If you look into lagering, it typically occurs at relatively cold temperatures; low-mid 40's.

The clock starts at purchase, simply because that's all you can be absolutely certain of. For instance, we know that Fuente Opus and Anejo are aged prior to shipping, but do you know for exactly how long? I've smoked Anejos that undeniably delivered ammonia odors.

If you're trying to convince yourself that it doesn't occur, you're just cheating yourself. Do the test I outline in the OP and, trust me, you'll detect it. The final fermentation cycle is ubiquitous and unavoidable fact.


----------



## GoldenNash (Oct 9, 2013)

Herf N Turf said:


> Padrons


So I'm new and I get the aging process but it seems crazy to be limited to just Padrons. Is there anything else out there for us that don't have an aged stash?


----------



## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

GoldenNash said:


> So I'm new and I get the aging process but it seems crazy to be limited to just Padrons. Is there anything else out there for us that don't have an aged stash?


What a lot of people do is buy cigars, particularly boxes, they know to be fresh. Fresh cigars (meaning right off the table) are fantastic. They'll smoke a couple from the box and put the rest down for a nap.


----------



## GoldenNash (Oct 9, 2013)

Herf N Turf said:


> What a lot of people do is buy cigars, particularly boxes, they know to be fresh. Fresh cigars (meaning right off the table) are fantastic. They'll smoke a couple from the box and put the rest down for a nap.


Wow, that answer seems pretty obvious now. Still not sure what to do since I have been buying online.


----------

