# Aged or Fresh, tastes and preferences



## wayner123 (Mar 29, 2007)

Hey all,

Well after reading Brandon's post on subjectiveness of taste, I started to think more about it. My experiment proved a great deal to me in how this taste difference can be seen.

So then, on to aged or fresh. I know the topic has been covered in the past and the saying "smoke what you like" is always best. But time and time again, I see people make comments like "give them a few years and they will be great". Or "give them a few months to settle down and they will that much better." Well that may your personal opinion, but what if in a few months/years they are no better and I could have been smoking them all along?

So that started me wondering (thinking for me is a task). The aging part is really a conconundrum. There is no way to smoke a 2000 crop in 2007 while it still being "fresh". So the comparison of aged vs. fresh cannot be made. My test showed that tastes can vary from person to person. And for the most part it varies on what that person has eaten or has made the mental link to as far as taste go. I mean even the mood one is in can make the cigar's flavor change. So for someone to say "give them a few years" makes me think the following:

1. In a few years you will have smoked many other cigars in which your "palate" (I call it mental links) has become more noticeable to flavors. Therefore, what once may have tasted bland or harsh, now doesn't. Your mind can now make the link to what you "should" be tasting.

2. The cigar has mellowed out. While this is not true for every aged Cuban, I think it holds the majority of the time. I believe that a person who prefer's aged cigars, also prefer's mild cigars. I do not mean mild in way of taste, but in light of nicotine or raw tobacco. From my experiments I have found that people who find "stronger" cigars too much, they find the milder ones just right and complex. And for the "strong" cigar smokers a mild cigar is not enough. Example: A friend of mine, found the cigar which I rate as a mild-medium, was harsh and too much spice kind of cigar. Where as I found it almost perfect. And he found that the cigar which I think is like smoking air, great and full bodied and complex. So to me that states that some people cannot take the stronger cigars because of their palate. Thus aging takes this tannic/strength/nicotine out and allows their palate to not concentrate on the abundance.

3. Sometimes people don't give the credit to young/fresh cigars based on peer pressure. And that should not be. If you like it right now, smoke it right now. It's not going to be that much better in a few years if you like it now. Who knows, in a few years you may prefer "strong" cigars and the ones you are smoking now may taste light or bad to you.

So those are my thoughts. I hope it's not dribble, and I ask all of you what your comments may be. As you can tell I am a proponent of fresh Cubans. I have never had an aged Cuban that was that much better than a fresh. I believe there are a lot of BOTL's who do not give them a fair share. And thus a lot of noobs shy away from experiencing a good cigar because they think "if it only tastes good in so and so years, no sense in getting it now, because I want to smoke a cigar now".


----------



## Blueface (May 28, 2005)

wayner123 said:


> As you can tell I am a proponent of fresh Cubans. I have never had an aged Cuban that was that much better than a fresh.


If my dad read this, he would be in tears (tears of pride that is).
You would have a friend for life.


----------



## wayner123 (Mar 29, 2007)

Blueface said:


> If my dad read this, he would be in tears (tears of pride that is).
> You would have a friend for life.


Yeah, I loved the post you had on your dad and Pepin discussing fresh cigars. People seem to dismiss it with "he is trying to sell more cigars". While that may be true, it does not deter from the honest discussion. And I hope to herf with you and your dad someday. I mean I am in FL for crying out loud!!


----------



## tchariya (Feb 26, 2007)

I've had a freshly rolled cigar with wrapper/filler from aged cuban tobacco (20+ years) rolled by a cuban. It was phenomenal...and I don't think I've anything that has come close.

Does that count as a freshly rolled cuban?


----------



## wayner123 (Mar 29, 2007)

tchariya said:


> I've had a freshly rolled cigar with wrapper/filler from aged cuban tobacco (20+ years) rolled by a cuban. It was phenomenal...and I don't think I've anything that has come close.
> 
> Does that count as a freshly rolled cuban?


In a sense I guess so, but I am talking more about current production. Not custom rolled ones.


----------



## donp (Mar 5, 2006)

Good thought provoking thread Wayner. I have found that putting away smokes for a year or so, results in the tastes/flavors become more pronounced and distinct. So, with a complex cigar the complexities are very clear for me. OTOH, I dont wanna wait three years or so before I can appreciate a cigar I spend good money to enjoy right away. I bought a box of HUpmann Mag 46s about a year and a half ago and found them to be awful. I stopped smoking them and am leaving them because I figure some time at rest will make em better. I take one out once every several months and can tell they are getting tastier but, it is a very slow process with them. With other brands, I can smoke em right outta the box and they are great, and will get better with more time.


----------



## wayner123 (Mar 29, 2007)

donp said:


> Good thought provoking thread Wayner. *I have found that putting away smokes for a year or so, results in the tastes/flavors become more pronounced and distinct. So, with a complex cigar the complexities are very clear for me.* OTOH, I dont wanna wait three years or so before I can appreciate a cigar I spend good money to enjoy right away. I bought a box of HUpmann Mag 46s about a year and a half ago and found them to be awful. I stopped smoking them and am leaving them because I figure some time at rest will make em better. I take one out once every several months and can tell they are getting tastier but, it is a very slow process with them. With other brands, I can smoke em right outta the box and they are great, and will get better with more time.


Does the highlighted part come about because the cigar actually gets better? Or because your palate, mental links, mood, etc etc. gets better?


----------



## borndead1 (Oct 21, 2006)

In my (very) limited experience with CCs, I am leaning more toward the aged. I am smoking a BBF from June 07 right now. The first half was pure bliss, but in the second half I am noticing some "off" flavors that tell me I should let them sit for another year. Yesterday I smoked a RyJ Exhibicion #4 from April 06 that was FANTASTIC, but my RASS from November 06 gave me an experience similar to the BBF. I have some Upmann corona tubos from Feb 07 that are great. Been smoking some Fonsecas from 98 that are so good I ordered another box after smoking 2 cigars. BUT they are the first Fonsecas I have ever smoked. Maybe a fresh one would rock my world, I dunno. Those are also the oldest CCs I have smoked.

I guess what I'm saying is that for me, it depends on the cigar.


I'm in the last 1/3 of this BBF, and I sorta feel like I "wasted" it.


----------



## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

I like the bite and power of a fresh Habanos, but that fades away into a bland one dimension cigar in a few months, gets sick for a little, comes back, and then starts a slow aging journey where you can enjoy them at your own pace. 

I agree that most look down at fresh cigars, as they are only really fresh for a short time and it's difficult to smoke them in such a short time.


----------



## wayner123 (Mar 29, 2007)

mosesbotbol said:


> I agree that most look down at fresh cigars, as they are only really fresh for a short time and it's difficult to smoke them in such a short time.


What do you consider fresh?? I define it as under a year. In that time period I could smoke them all. There are people who don't even consider 3 years to be an aged cigar.


----------



## galaga (Sep 18, 2003)

mosesbotbol said:


> I like the bite and power of a fresh Habanos, but that fades away into a bland one dimension cigar in a few months, gets sick for a little, comes back, and then starts a slow aging journey where you can enjoy them at your own pace.
> 
> I agree that most look down at fresh cigars, as they are only really fresh for a short time and it's difficult to smoke them in such a short time.


:tpd:

The manufacturers says 6 months, and I think that generally holds true. Then they come back in another 6 months and start "aging". And you're right, some say 3-5 years or more before they are best ala MRN. I don't know about most, but I don't have the capital to buy much aged stock and don't have the patience to age stock.


----------



## croatan (Mar 23, 2005)

wayner123 said:


> There are people who don't even consider 3 years to be an aged cigar.


That's true. But it doesn't make them bad.

Some people prefer them aged, what's the big deal? You like them fresh. Good (and cheaper) for you 

I like both, depending on my mood. But I smoke more aged cigars than non-aged cigars. I usually find them more enjoyable. And, contrary to your experience, I've smoked no young cigars that I found more enjoyable than some exceptional, properly-aged cigars I've had. By the way, I don't like young scotch, either. Sucks (and expensive) for me 

I didn't come to my conclusions overnight. And I started aging cigars long before I ever joined an internet message board or heard the name Min Ron Nee. A good friend and I realized a long time ago that we both preferred cigars with a little age on them. Back then, we had great difficulty finding cigars with significant age, so we just did our best to hunt for the oldest box codes we could find and then made sure we weren't smoking anything less than three years old. In that regard, I don't know how long you've been smoking, but you have to understand, as well, that not too many years ago, younger cigars were not as approachable as they are today. They tended to be very harsh and full of ammonia. That hasn't really been the case for the last couple years.

In the end, preference is subjective. Which is cool and keeps things from being extremely boring.


----------



## wayner123 (Mar 29, 2007)

croatan said:


> That's true. But it doesn't make them bad.
> 
> Some people prefer them aged, what's the big deal? You like them fresh. Good (and cheaper) for you
> 
> ...


Hey, like I said earlier "smoke what you like". Not a big deal really, just posting my thoughts. :tu

That's what so cool about taste. It's totally subjective. So my point was more along the lines of those people who say "let them age/rest for a few years and they will be great". That may be your personal taste but maybe in a few years that person still thinks they don't taste right. What then? Years wasted.

As to your comment about being the opposite of me, may I ask do you smoke NC's at all? And if so, which ones do you prefer?

I have been smoking for over 10 years and about 7 of those cuban's. I do know what you mean about previous years, but that is no reason for others to lump every crop as being that way. The past three years have been exceptionally good "fresh".


----------



## Coffee Grounds (Feb 14, 2007)

I like my CC with just on year of age on them.
They still hold the power I like and they form balance.

I have smoked CC with just 2 months of age on them and they were too young.

In my limited experience I do think some cigars do peak within that 10 year period but I prefer stronger cigars.


----------



## wayner123 (Mar 29, 2007)

Coffee Grounds said:


> *I have smoked CC with just 2 months of age on them and they were too young.*


Could you define what you mean by "too young"?


----------



## croatan (Mar 23, 2005)

wayner123 said:


> Hey, like I said earlier "smoke what you like". Not a big deal really, just posting my thoughts. :tu
> 
> That's what so cool about taste. It's totally subjective. So my point was more along the lines of those people who say "let them age/rest for a few years and they will be great". That may be your personal taste but maybe in a few years that person still thinks they don't taste right. What then? Years wasted.


If they didn't taste right then and still don't taste right after a few years, the only thing I see as being wasted is the storage space. I'm not going to smoke cigars that "don't taste right" regardless of their age.



> As to your comment about being the opposite of me, may I ask do you smoke NC's at all? And if so, which ones do you prefer?


I smoke some, but not many (at least compared to the number of Cubans I smoke).

The Tatuaje Noellas are very good. I smoked an '04 Opus X last night that was pretty tasty--much better than when it was fresh, in my opinion. The Oliva Serie V are pretty good. Anejos with a few years of age on them are enjoyable--smoked an original release Shark not too long ago that was really good. I had a pre-production Barrel Aged that I enjoyed recently. Also, I like a lot of the stuff that Tabacalera Tropical produces.

On the whole, though (and this is a gross generalization but accurate of my tastes), I just find most non-Cubans to be boring--better suited to the golf course than my living room.

I also think that aged non-Cubans are better than fresh non-Cubans (and I'm not just talking about Opus, Anejo, etc., as mentioned above). Not too long ago, I found a Curly Head that had been buried in one of my humidors for at least ten years. I figured "hey, what the hell, why not?" and lit it up. It was pretty good. Something I never would have said about one picked off the shelf at a B&M.



> I have been smoking for over 10 years and about 7 of those cuban's. I do know what you mean about previous years, but that is no reason for others to lump every crop as being that way. The past three years have been exceptionally good "fresh".


Most definitely agreed. Not too long ago (well, it's probably been a little over a year now, I guess), I ran around crying to anyone who would listen that '06 Dip 4s absolutely rock. I went through two boxes in a month.


----------



## Blueface (May 28, 2005)

All this "fresh"/"aged" stuff made me run to my humi.
Lit up a Lusi, fresh.
So, for today, "fresh" is in.


----------



## hova45 (Jun 17, 2007)

I enjoy them all, fresh, marinated, semi-marinated they all offer different flavors. Sometimes i don't want the tar so I want a very old cigar, or that plum fruity taste. other times I want some fresh cigars with that ooomppphhhhh


----------



## donp (Mar 5, 2006)

wayner123 said:


> Does the highlighted part come about because the cigar actually gets better? Or because your palate, mental links, mood, etc etc. gets better?


I believe the cigar gets better by it's maturation or aging. 
Nope, when I smoke a cigar I am familiar with, but let it sit for a while (depends on how long), I look for differences or, for things I liked about it when I had it last. Sometimes I hit it just right, sometimes I am pleasantly surprised, and other times disappointed (probably due to the much storied "sick period"). Otoh, as I said earlier, I have had some which I have smoked damned near right outta the box, and absolutely loved them. 
Sure my palatte has a lot to do with it but, I attribute more to the cigar itself.


----------



## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

Fresh habanos are better than ever right now. 07's are really good. Good quality control and construction. Cigars actually taste like they have 2 or 3 years box.

That being said I have not had single 07 cigar thats better than a mature one say 5-7 years.

I have had some mature cigars that were better than some vintage (over 10 years) though. Personal tastes,storage, and the exact cigar in question all play a role. Some cigars age better than others.


----------



## Ashcan Bill (Jul 29, 2006)

Anybody think that a person's smoking technique may play a part in their preference?

Might a person who inhales and exhales solely through their mouth tend to develop a different opinion of young versus aged than a person who exhales through their nose?

Is it possible a person who exhales through their nose might find younger cigars a bit harsh and tannic, while a person who primarily exhales through their mouth would prefer younger cigars with more bite?


----------



## wayner123 (Mar 29, 2007)

Ashcan Bill said:


> Anybody think that a person's smoking technique may play a part in their preference?
> 
> Might a person who inhales and exhales solely through their mouth tend to develop a different opinion of young versus aged than a person who exhales through their nose?
> 
> Is it possible a person who exhales through their nose might find younger cigars a bit harsh and tannic, while a person who primarily exhales through their mouth would prefer younger cigars with more bite?


That's a good thought.

I do both. On Cubans I do more nose exhaling than I would with a NC, as there is little burn. Doesn't help much in the flavor department for me. But to each their own.


----------



## Boston_Dude05 (Oct 10, 2006)

Great post. It's all a matter of personal preference but this does shed some light on the fact that not all aged smokes trump fresh ones. I'm tending to prefer fresh ones myself at the moment for the bite.


----------



## BigVito (Jan 1, 2000)

Blueface said:


> All this "fresh"/"aged" stuff made me run to my humi.
> Lit up a Lusi, fresh.
> So, for today, "fresh" is in.


was it plugged?


----------



## Sandman (Mar 26, 2006)

I them both young and old. As always, depends on the mood.


----------



## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

Ashcan Bill said:


> Anybody think that a person's smoking technique may play a part in their preference?
> 
> Might a person who inhales and exhales solely through their mouth tend to develop a different opinion of young versus aged than a person who exhales through their nose?
> 
> Is it possible a person who exhales through their nose might find younger cigars a bit harsh and tannic, while a person who primarily exhales through their mouth would prefer younger cigars with more bite?


Smoking only through the mouth you really are not getting the true flavor of a cigar. Definately could alter taste and perception.

If it's particularly strong or spicy cigar I scale back how much I blow out through the nose. If it's a mellow vintage smoke I blow a lot through the nose.


----------



## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

wayner123 said:


> What do you consider fresh?? I define it as under a year. In that time period I could smoke them all. There are people who don't even consider 3 years to be an aged cigar.


One-Two months of the box code.


----------



## Costa (Jan 26, 2008)

> One-Two months of the box code.


Meaning one to two months after the box code? Not quite understanding, thanks.


----------



## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

Costa said:


> Meaning one to two months after the box code? Not quite understanding, thanks.


Yes, one-two months after the date of the box code.


----------



## FattyCBR (Feb 22, 2007)

How many people drink the same drink for every cigar? I've found that the beverage choice makes a huge taste/nuance difference for me even with the same cigar. The only consistent drinks I've found are water and coffee. Beer, wine and liquor seem to mask the taste too much for me and I often find the cigar flat.


----------



## Coffee Grounds (Feb 14, 2007)

wayner123 said:


> Could you define what you mean by "too young"?


"Too young" for me is when the cigar has no balance and maybe even taste a bit course or rough. Then the balance brings smoothness.

Now this is not always the case Monte #2 & SLR series A can be smoked right away and they have perfect balance.


----------



## wayner123 (Mar 29, 2007)

FattyCBR said:


> How many people drink the same drink for every cigar? I've found that the beverage choice makes a huge taste/nuance difference for me even with the same cigar. The only consistent drinks I've found are water and coffee. Beer, wine and liquor seem to mask the taste too much for me and I often find the cigar flat.


From what my test showed, this is a major factor in how a cigar tastes to a person. It also seems to have a factor in how "strong" one thinks a cigar is.

I really wanted to point out that the overall statement of "try them in a few months/years/etc." does not always hold true. What is good to one person is not good to another. So don't be shy to get some smokes you are interested in and smoke them now. IMO, they won't be that much better even if you let them age.


----------



## chibnkr (May 2, 2007)

Honestly, I think you should smoke what you like. If you enjoy fresher cigars, then smoke them. I, on the other hand, almost always prefer vintage cigars to their relatively fresher counterparts (I'd take a 1977 Montecristo No. 2 over a 2007 Montecristo No. 2 _every_ time). I have smoked a decent number of cigars over the past 12 or 13 years, both "fresh" and "aged". Vintage cigars, if stored properly, can possess flavors and subtle nuances that fresh cigars just cannot. Some people don't really care. I do. But, as I said, to each their own...


----------



## BamaDoc77 (Jan 31, 2007)

chibnkr said:


> Honestly, I think you should smoke what you like. If you enjoy fresher cigars, then smoke them. I, on the other hand, almost always prefer vintage cigars to their relatively fresher counterparts (I'd take a 1977 Montecristo No. 2 over a 2007 Montecristo No. 2 _every_ time). I have smoked a decent number of cigars over the past 12 or 13 years, both "fresh" and "aged". Vintage cigars, if stored properly, can possess flavors and subtle nuances that fresh cigars just cannot. Some people don't really care. I do. But, as I said, to each their own...


Wow, that surprises me (as I lok back at your humi pick) NOT!!
You are an aged fan, dont lie........BTW, I would give my left arm for some of your sticks!


----------



## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

wayner123 said:


> From what my test showed, this is a major factor in how a cigar tastes to a person. It also seems to have a factor in how "strong" one thinks a cigar is.
> 
> I really wanted to point out that the overall statement of "try them in a few months/years/etc." does not always hold true. What is good to one person is not good to another. So don't be shy to get some smokes you are interested in and smoke them now. IMO, they won't be that much better even if you let them age.


Your right, it doesn't always hold true, but it usually does. In the last 12 years I have given cigars away I didn't like only to kick myself later after finding some tucked away in the humi a while. The majority of the time they were totally transformed with more months or years age. Your last statement may hold true for non-Cuban cigars, but not for Cuban cigars. To say they probably won't be that much better is kind of bad advice IMO. Especially if the cigars were in a sick period which is not uncommon at all. I can't even recall how many cigars I thought sucked young only to become classics with age.

I'm not a picky smoker either though. I love Cuban cigars and have at least something from every brand in the humi. I used to not like Vegueros, now I even have some of the Marevas from 01 that are not bad. For me it's not a question of what I don't like, rather what I like better.


----------



## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

chibnkr said:


> Honestly, I think you should smoke what you like. If you enjoy fresher cigars, then smoke them. I, on the other hand, almost always prefer vintage cigars to their relatively fresher counterparts (I'd take a 1977 Montecristo No. 2 over a 2007 Montecristo No. 2 _every_ time). I have smoked a decent number of cigars over the past 12 or 13 years, both "fresh" and "aged". Vintage cigars, if stored properly, can possess flavors and subtle nuances that fresh cigars just cannot. Some people don't really care. I do. But, as I said, to each their own...


I'd take a 70's or 80's Monte #2 anyday over an 07 too. These age so well. I'd take anything Cohiba aged over a fresh one too.

Honestly though, about 80% of what I smoke is mature 5-10 years old and maybe 10% vintage and 10% 07's.

Some vintage cigars have been the best cigars I've ever smoked period. They also can be so inconsistant and expensive.:hn


----------



## wayner123 (Mar 29, 2007)

Fredster said:


> Your right, it doesn't always hold true, but it usually does. In the last 12 years I have given cigars away I didn't like only to kick myself later after finding some tucked away in the humi a while. The majority of the time they were totally transformed with more months or years age. Your last statement may hold true for non-Cuban cigars, but not for Cuban cigars. To say they probably won't be that much better is kind of bad advice IMO. Especially if the cigars were in a sick period which is not uncommon at all. I can't even recall how many cigars I thought sucked young only to become classics with age.
> 
> I'm not a picky smoker either though. I love Cuban cigars and have at least something from every brand in the humi. I used to not like Vegueros, now I even have some of the Marevas from 01 that are not bad. For me it's not a question of what I don't like, rather what I like better.


Well that's just my point. It holds true "usually" for you. There are others as well that hold your opinion. The problem is when you tell someone else this as gospel truth. They either get discouraged about not being able to get a great cigar now, or they do wait and realize that it got better (which could be due to their palate getting better) or it's about the same.

My point number 2 is a very imporatant one, IMO.


----------



## croatan (Mar 23, 2005)

wayner123 said:


> Well that's just my point. It holds true "usually" for you. There are others as well that hold your opinion. The problem is when you tell someone else this as gospel truth. They either get discouraged about not being able to get a great cigar now, or they do wait and realize that it got better (which could be due to their palate getting better) or it's about the same.
> 
> My point number 2 is a very imporatant one, IMO.


And yours is an opinion, too. One that you give freely and without qualification. There's no difference.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. But saying that his is wrong and he shouldn't give it merely because it conflicts with yours is, in my opinion, contrary to the spirit of Club Stogie. People post here _wanting _the opinions of others. That's kind of the whole point.


----------



## wayner123 (Mar 29, 2007)

croatan said:


> And yours is an opinion, too. One that you give freely and without qualification. There's no difference.
> 
> Everyone is entitled to an opinion. But saying that his is wrong and he shouldn't give it merely because it conflicts with yours is, in my opinion, contrary to the spirit of Club Stogie. People post here _wanting _the opinions of others. That's kind of the whole point.


Hey,

I didn't have any negative intentions in what I said. I was only saying that preaching that "vintage is the only way to go" or that "those cigars will be better in a few years" is not absolute.

I am not saying he was wrong for having the opinion that vintage is better. Many young gorillas look to you FOG's to lead them in the way of what is good and what isn't. They hold your opinions as absolute truth. That's no fault to you, but it happens. I hope I am making myself clear 

I am not sure what qualification I would need to say what I have said. I am only trying to help. I personally have found myself thinking the thought "well if these aren't going to be good until a few years, why bother". Then I go and get a few and really like them, right now.

My points were simply my own observations and encouragement to those young apes who may be considering the Dark side of the jungle.


----------



## Blueface (May 28, 2005)

As I once said, this subject is like pizza.
Pizza is/was made for the most part to be eaten blazing hot out of the oven so that the roof of your mouth falls off and adds a sort of "grated cheese" effect.

One day, someone decided to let the pizza sit a while and cool off. Then others tried that too and they all liked it/preferred it room temperature, rather than blazing hot (don't know why as I love it blazing hot).

One day, someone decided to stick the pizza in the refrigerator and really cool it down. Then some decided lets not re-heat it. Let's eat it cold.

One day, someone decided to freeze the darn thing. Many seemed to like that too.

All that said, cigars were meant to consumed as blazing hot pizza if you ask my dad and Don Pepin and any old style Cuban. I respect that opinion. On the other hand, I see it as their preference. If someone decided to go ahead and eat frozen pizza out of the freezer (meaning very aged cigars for this analogy) and they prefer that taste over the taste of the blazing hot pizza, more power to them. We can all agree the taste of that blazing hot pizza v. the frozen one will be totally different. What one prefers from there or in between there is totally up to one's personal preference. Although my dad would disagree and in his opinion you might as well chuck that frozen pizza, that doesn't mean it can't be enjoyed that way by some/many.

No one way is wrong.
No one way is right.
It is a matter of preference that came about by someone deciding to "stick it in the freezer" (analogy: try something different).


----------



## wayner123 (Mar 29, 2007)

Blueface said:


> No one way is wrong.
> No one way is right.
> It is a matter of preference.


That sums up my thoughts. That's what I am trying to convey. Don't get discouraged, you might like the blazing hot pizza. :tu


----------



## LasciviousXXX (Oct 12, 2004)

wayner123 said:


> Hey,
> 
> I didn't have any negative intentions in what I said. I was only saying that preaching that "vintage is the only way to go" or that "those cigars will be better in a few years" is not absolute.
> 
> ...


I think the real point to consider here is that when the younger LLG's solicit the FOG's for their opinions, they are _looking_ for their opinion. Whether they take that opinion as truth is up to them but the initial intent is to solicit an opinion.

I think the reason some of the younger members do this is because most of the FOG's have the experience that is necessary in order to form those types of opinions. They've spent countless years trying, testing, experimenting with certain things to come the conclusion they state. I don't believe any of the FOG's here blindly stated "oh the '06 crop needs 2 more years" without having smoked many different types, brands, etc of that given year.

You say that taste is subjective, well to a degree I agree with you but there's a whole different argument there as well. The "taste is subjective" debate has gone on for as long as I've been a member here and I'm sure well before that.

The point is while certain things are subjective, some are not. The fact that the late '07 crop is smoking better than the previous 4 years crop is widely shared by most CC smokers on CS. Its not "the law" obviously but enough of the members have done their own smoking/experimenting that it is now a general consensus.

Anyway, that's just my _opinion_


----------



## bobarian (Oct 1, 2007)

I would like to thank everyone for sharing their thoughts on this subject. It has been great to follow and hear the opinions of some of our more experienced brothers. Most of do not have the resources(supplier or financial) to venture too far into the "aged"/"vintage" world. 

I really dont have an opinion on the OP. I like em all! Fresh or Aged(never had a pre95), they all seem to have something I like. The fresh smokes I have had seem to have a little extra zip, and the aged smokes a smoothness not found in fresh ones. Also, I seem to notice that aged smokes will change flavors more often fresh. My:2


----------



## LasciviousXXX (Oct 12, 2004)

bobarian said:


> I would like to thank everyone for sharing their thoughts on this subject. It has been great to follow and hear the opinions of some of our more experienced brothers. Most of do not have the resources(supplier or financial) to venture too far into the "aged"/"vintage" world.
> 
> I really dont have an opinion on the OP. I like em all! Fresh or Aged(never had a pre95), they all seem to have something I like. The fresh smokes I have had seem to have a little extra zip, and the aged smokes a smoothness not found in fresh ones. Also, I seem to notice that aged smokes will change flavors more often fresh. My:2


And this is really what it comes down to. If you love 'em, smoke 'em. I totally prefer aged/vintage smokes over fresh ones. That being said, I've had some '07's that I've been really impressed with and have caused me to buy more. But as with Fred/Michael/etc give me an early mid 80's Monte *anyday* over a fresh one  They have a richness and depth that is just lip-smackin' :dr

That being said Bobarian, would you like to try a pre 95 cigar? If so, shoot me your addy :tu


----------



## Mr.Maduro (Aug 2, 2006)

Blueface said:


> As I once said, this subject is like pizza.
> Pizza is/was made for the most part to be eaten blazing hot out of the oven so that the roof of your mouth falls off and adds a sort of "grated cheese" effect.
> 
> One day, someone decided to let the pizza sit a while and cool off. Then others tried that too and they all liked it/preferred it room temperature, rather than blazing hot (don't know why as I love it blazing hot).
> ...


Threadjack on....

Carlos.... I just had some real (NYC) pizza!! :tg Just thought you wanted to know:r

Threadjack off!!


----------



## wayner123 (Mar 29, 2007)

LasciviousXXX said:


> I think the real point to consider here is that when the younger LLG's solicit the FOG's for their opinions, they are _looking_ for their opinion. Whether they take that opinion as truth is up to them but the initial intent is to solicit an opinion.
> 
> I think the reason some of the younger members do this is because most of the FOG's have the experience that is necessary in order to form those types of opinions. They've spent countless years trying, testing, experimenting with certain things to come the conclusion they state. I don't believe any of the FOG's here blindly stated "oh the '06 crop needs 2 more years" without having smoked many different types, brands, etc of that given year.


Well said. I guess I am talking more to unsolicted comments.

Also, I don't think many FOG bother with younger crops. Maybe one or two out of a box, but then it gets stashed away. Plus FOG's already have their minds made up on aging and that's what they prefer.



LasciviousXXX said:


> You say that taste is subjective, well to a degree I agree with you but there's a whole different argument there as well. The "taste is subjective" debate has gone on for as long as I've been a member here and I'm sure well before that.
> 
> The point is while certain things are subjective, some are not. The fact that the late '07 crop is smoking better than the previous 4 years crop is widely shared by most CC smokers on CS. Its not "the law" obviously but enough of the members have done their own smoking/experimenting that it is now a general consensus.
> 
> Anyway, that's just my _opinion_


This is what I hoped to prove with my test. It is not conclusive, but it does give insight to the subjectiveness of taste. Please take a few minutes to read it, I hope it proves useful.:tu


----------



## wayner123 (Mar 29, 2007)

I just want everyone to know that I am not trying to be argumentative at all. I just wanted to express my views. So I apologize if I have come across in a bad way.

Smoke what you like!! :tu

That being said, I would really love to see an aged or fresh blind taste test!! What do you all think of that idea??


----------



## LasciviousXXX (Oct 12, 2004)

wayner123 said:


> Well said. I guess I am talking more to unsolicted comments.
> 
> Also, I don't think many FOG bother with younger crops. Maybe one or two out of a box, but then it gets stashed away. Plus FOG's already have their minds made up on aging and that's what they prefer.


Will have to disagree with you on this one. You would be surprised to find out that there are quite a few FOG's who do lots of "testing" to see how the newer crops are smoking. Its funny but to FOG's, sometime "testing" requires multiple boxes being smoked before making an informed decision.

Also, I understand you're not trying to be argumentative. Its all good with me bro, intelligent discussion in the Habanos forum is always appreciated. :tu

About the subjective nature of flavors, I won't get into that debate here but if taste is so subjective how do people know what salt tastes like? Or oranges? You get the idea.... taste is subjective to an extent but there are some things that are universally transmitted on the same level.


----------



## wayner123 (Mar 29, 2007)

LasciviousXXX said:


> About the subjective nature of flavors, I won't get into that debate here but if taste is so subjective how do people know what salt tastes like? Or oranges? You get the idea.... taste is subjective to an extent but there are some things that are universally transmitted on the same level.


Hey,

Thanks for understanding. I'll say this to the question of "how do people know what salt tastes like?". Well how do I know what you taste as salt is the same thing I taste as salt? You learn growing up that this particular thing is what salt taste like. But there is no way of knowing that you are tasting the same thing I am.

Put it this way. You see the sky as blue, right? But how do you know if the blue which you see is the same "blue" that I do? You learn these things growing up and associate them to that certain color. So your "blue" may be my "green". It's all how you learn to associate it.

Now then, what are your thoughts on an aged vs. fresh blind taste test?


----------



## bobarian (Oct 1, 2007)

LasciviousXXX said:


> And this is really what it comes down to. If you love 'em, smoke 'em. I totally prefer aged/vintage smokes over fresh ones. That being said, I've had some '07's that I've been really impressed with and have caused me to buy more. But as with Fred/Michael/etc give me an early mid 80's Monte *anyday* over a fresh one  They have a richness and depth that is just lip-smackin' :dr
> 
> That being said Bobarian, would you like to try a pre 95 cigar? If so, shoot me your addy :tu


Wow! You just made my week! Thank you so much. :ss:chk:chk:chk


----------



## Blueface (May 28, 2005)

Mr.Maduro said:


> Threadjack on....
> 
> Carlos.... I just had some real (NYC) pizza!! :tg Just thought you wanted to know:r
> 
> Threadjack off!!


Threadjack on....

YOU BASTAGE!!! That is wrong on so many levels.:r

Threadjack off!


----------



## LasciviousXXX (Oct 12, 2004)

bobarian said:


> Wow! You just made my week! Thank you so much. :ss:chk:chk:chk


No problem my friend. Pay it Forward is a way of life here at ClubStogie :tu


----------



## dadof3illinois (Nov 7, 2004)

I don't know of anyone I would consider a FOG that only buys recent production cigars because they like them over aged or vintage.

I think if you were to take a poll of all the people that have been smoking cuban cigars for the past 15 years to see if they like Aged/Vintage over fresh I bet at least 85% would say they like aged/vintage. So now would it still be bad advice for them to tell a FNG to hold on and age their stock???


----------



## BigVito (Jan 1, 2000)

to me I like them both ways and its a $ thing. I would love to be able to sample something from the 70's or 80's but I don't have the capitol to make it happen.


----------



## DAFU (Dec 14, 2004)

Surprisng more haven't chimed in here. When I hear of vintage cigars having a _few years _ on them I cringe. Cigars tasting better a couple of years _out of the box_ probably just weren't ready to be smoked in the first place. More to do with Cuban quality control than anything else I would think. Some cigars may never get much better, but others may reach a plateau of rarified greatness after many years of proper storage. I will continue to learn from others experiences, but as for now I will just be looking for the ones smoking good now.


----------



## Blueface (May 28, 2005)

DAFU said:


> More to do with Cuban quality control than anything else I would think.


I would respectfully disagree.
If you speak to any knowledgable Cuban Veguero or Torcedero, they make their cigars to be smoked now.
The idea of aging a cigar is something that evolved outside of Cuba and had nothing to do with the way the Cubans make the cigar.
To them, the aging process is purely in the curing of the tobacco.
Once rolled, light up and smoke away is what they believe.
That is not to say folks can't prefer to age them and prefer the taste of them aged. Like my pizza analogy, whatever turns you on. However, like the pizzeria makes it to be primarily eaten hot out of the oven, so do the Cubans.


----------



## lenguamor (Nov 23, 2006)

Blueface said:


> I would respectfully disagree.
> If you speak to any knowledgable Cuban Veguero or Torcedero, they make their cigars to be smoked now.
> The idea of aging a cigar is something that evolved outside of Cuba and had nothing to do with the way the Cubans make the cigar.
> To them, the aging process is purely in the curing of the tobacco.
> ...


Brilliant!

:r


----------



## stogie_kanobie_one (Feb 9, 2006)

I always find it interesting all of the conversations we have about to age or not to age. Yours was a nice thought provoking post as I used to go into a tizzy about aging, how to age, when to age, what to age. I think there is a lot of merit to both pro and con views. For a lot of people who wonder about these things I can only say don't wonder about them. After years of purchasing here and there, you will soon acquire so many cigars that aging happens whether you want it to or not. I've so many habanos at this point that I could rotate every day for a month and never have the same cigar twice. And this is without effort and also having slowed my purchasing down to perhaps a box or two every few months. My thinking is only to point out if the goal is to smoke fresh cigars as they are "meant" to be fresh.... I couldn't if I tried. My cigars would rapidly (as now) become not fresh as my rotation would not allow me to smoke them all fast enough. 

So I love many MANY of my cigars fresh. I do not discriminate. If that puppy falls off the truck and feels properly humidified enough to smoke... I smoke. Sometimes it is a hit, sometimes a miss. And into my rotation it goes, regardless. 

I can recall having an 06 RyJ Coronitas en Cedro when fresh and thought they weren't bad, good and strong flavor, but there were a lot of elements to the cigar I just didn't like. Had one a few weeks ago.... and I was floored at how the cigar had mellowed after only 2 years. Same strength, but nowhere near as tannic (if that is what I was identifying). 

In the end I just don't see how if a cigar was meant to be smoked fresh, one achieves this if they are a hobbyist. We aim to collect, to store properly, to enjoy. I'm a solitary kind of guy. I enjoy a cigar nightly, with a DVD or a book or magazine, alone mostly. If I never bought another cigar EVER.... I'd be smoking one cigar daily, easily for the next 5 years minimum. 

I don't disagree, perhaps they were meant to be enjoyed fresh, but if that is the case, I've been jipped  most of my collection is stale LOL.

I keed, I keed.


----------



## Tw3nty (Jan 25, 2008)

wayner123 said:


> Yeah, I loved the post you had on your dad and Pepin discussing fresh cigars. People seem to dismiss it with "he is trying to sell more cigars". While that may be true, it does not deter from the honest discussion. And I hope to herf with you and your dad someday. I mean I am in FL for crying out loud!!


Wayner, how do i find that post between that guys father and peppin. would love to read it.


----------



## NCRadioMan (Feb 28, 2005)

vanderburg said:


> Wayner, how do i find that post between that guys father and peppin. would love to read it.


Search is good. 

http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showthread.php?t=109463&highlight=Pepin


----------



## yayson (Aug 21, 2006)

I'm no FOG, been smoking Cubans, regularly-ish, aged, vintage and fresh now for 1 or 2 years only. I can honestly say however, without a doubt I'd prefer a vintage over fresh if money were not an object. Unfortunately money's a huge object


----------



## MNSmoker (Jan 28, 2008)

I would like to preface this post by stating that I have never smoked a Cuban cigar, so I have no opinion on the aged versus fresh debate. However, in the latest issue of CA, James Suckling interviewed Max Gutmann, the owner of Importadora y Exportadora de Puros y Tabacos, the Cuban cigar agent in Mexico.

He is the originator of the La Casa del Habano chain, and his personal collection contains more than 1500 boxes of cigars. When asked if he believes cigars improve with age, his response was of course they do. He compares cigars to wine and explains that most cigars can easily reach 15 or 16 years before they begin to diminish in quality. He states that he doesn't mind smoking young cigars, but prefers cigars with age and specifically cigars with 8 to 10 years.

Although the majority of people in Cuba believe in smoking cigars fresh and are perplexed by the idea of aging cigars, here is an opinion of a major cigar supplier with direct ties to Habanos SA with the opposite viewpoint. Just some more information to throw into this endless debate.

-Chris


----------



## Blueface (May 28, 2005)

MNSmoker said:


> I would like to preface this post by stating that I have never smoked a Cuban cigar, so I have no opinion on the aged versus fresh debate. However, in the latest issue of CA, James Suckling interviewed Max Gutmann, the owner of Importadora y Exportadora de Puros y Tabacos, the Cuban cigar agent in Mexico.
> 
> He is the originator of the La Casa del Habano chain, and his personal collection contains more than 1500 boxes of cigars. When asked if he believes cigars improve with age, his response was of course they do. He compares cigars to wine and explains that most cigars can easily reach 15 or 16 years before they begin to diminish in quality. He states that he doesn't mind smoking young cigars, but prefers cigars with age and specifically cigars with 8 to 10 years.
> 
> ...


Often times the cigars are compared to wines and really can't and shouldn't.
Wines generally get better with time.
Although to many, cigars also do the same, even by your post, their life expectancy ceases at some point in time.
The example you cite is another one of a person that supports aging.
That is his preference.
I think at the end of the day, pizza still makes sense as the comparison.
All a matter of preference.
One thing I would hope many can agree on is that they are not made for aging.
They are made for smoking now.
That many prefer to age them and prefer that taste over the taste of "fresh", there is nothing wrong with that at all. However, when they cultivate the tobacco and cure it in Cuba, trust me, they are not doing it for long term aging in mind.
I happen to enjoy them both ways but unfortunately, can't afford many aged ones and smoke the ones I have or give them away too fast to find out what they would have been like.


----------



## hoax (Aug 7, 2007)

I'll throw in my 2 cents.

1. Nobody makes a cigar to be aged. Nobody makes a cigar to be smoked fresh. People make cigars. Some may taste better aged, some may taste better fresh. I think that the key point here that we can agree on is that the taste of a cigar changes depending how old it is.

2. Cigars aren't wine and they sure aren't pizza. You can't say because you like aged wine that you like aged cigars. What if I like aged wine and fresh pizza? Should I age my cigars only half the time as the other guys?

3. I don't get the whole Cubans are great aged but NC don't change. They are both the same tobacco. Sure the NC is grown in slightly different conditions. But I think that the exact same chemical changes that occur when aging a Cuban will happen in a NC. 

4. If I have a chance to smoke right off the rollers table, I'll take it. If I have the chance to smoke from a box of 70 year old pre-embargo's, I'll take it too. But for the everyday situation, if I have the choice between smoking recently purchased sticks or ones that have been aging for 5 years in my humidor, I'll take the ones that have been resting for a few years.


----------



## Da Klugs (Jan 8, 2005)

wayner123 said:


> From what my test showed, this is a major factor in how a cigar tastes to a person. It also seems to have a factor in how "strong" one thinks a cigar is.
> 
> I really wanted to point out that the overall statement of "try them in a few months/years/etc." does not always hold true. What is good to one person is not good to another. So don't be shy to get some smokes you are interested in and smoke them now. *IMO, they won't be that much better even if you let them age*.


Well we are all entitled to our opinions. For me it's specific to the cigar and none of us can have experience with them all to a level of detail over time to really know how each will respond.

Bad fresh cigar in my opinion... 07 PLPC's sucked balls fresh. They taste much better now. They fit with my perception of how cigars "used to be". Most other brands seem to be much more smokeable fresh today than in the past.

Another cigar example: Every PSD4 box I have bought tasted good to me fresh with some variation in how good. They don't taste as good after a period of time that seems to vary between 3 and 9 months. They start to taste better a couple years into it but its different than when they were fresh and I've never really been able to say "better".

Have some 06 PL Lonsdales that were ehh fresh and are OK today. Have some 98 PL lonsdales that are soooo much better having developed that caramel sweetness that is just to die for. Have some 86 PL lonsdales that are incredible and nucanced and ever changing whey you smoke them. Have some 70's PL lonsdales en cello that are up there in my top 5 cigars smoked. One cigar different ages (and production years) and very different experiences.

The experience varies all over the map. Love some of the early 90's small RG cigars. (Demi tase size) Don't really enjoy them fresh so choose not to smoke them. Love me my mag 46's. Some have rocked off the boat, some needed a couple years. Still like my 05's bettter than my 98's. It's all over the map and whatever we decide we like.

There are vintage cigars that to me, make the hobby more enjoyable beyond the fresh/personal aging aspect if only to set flavor placeholders of hope for my maturing stock.

I can't say that any cigar you buy fresh will get remarkable or better to your pallate with age. But lack of empirical evidence and personal experience to the contrary would say no one can say it won't either.

I am going to get some bundle cigars from Holts though just to make sure. :tpd:


----------



## bonggoy (Mar 9, 2006)

LasciviousXXX said:


> I think the real point to consider here is that when the *younger LLG's solicit the FOG's for their opinions*, they are _looking_ for their opinion. Whether they take that opinion as truth is up to them but the initial intent is to solicit an opinion.


Very good point D.

I would love to do my own testing. However, that would require purchasing multiple boxes for each cigar and many years of tasting. Very impractical. The next best thing is to ask a more experienced smoker/collector.


----------



## Bruce (Dec 31, 1999)

Here's a curveball for you:

I enjoy cigars that are decades old, yet stored in a low airflow/temperature environment that slows down maturation.
What you get is a cigar that is incredibly balanced, very full flavored and complex, yet has none of the negative attributes of a youthful cigar.

Also, some are forgetting classic cigars that actually gain richness and flavor as they age.....cigars such as SW's and ERDM Tainos. Smoked young they are mild and unimpressionable. They start to open up with 5 or 10 years on them. At 20 to 25 years they are phenomenal!
In a blind taste test, I bet the smoker would pick a 25 y/o SW as being younger compared to a SW with 5 years of age on it........mainly because most equate well aged vintage cigars to mildness, as Wayne implies.


----------



## wayner123 (Mar 29, 2007)

Bruce said:


> Here's a curveball for you:
> 
> I enjoy cigars that are decades old, yet stored in a low airflow/temperature environment that slows down maturation.
> What you get is a cigar that is incredibly balanced, very full flavored and complex, yet has none of the negative attributes of a youthful cigar.
> ...


Hey now, I gave room for exceptions. :tu



wayner123 said:


> 2. The cigar has mellowed out. While this is not true for every aged Cuban, I think it holds the majority of the time.


----------



## BigVito (Jan 1, 2000)

I like smoking cigars that are fresh from aging sometimes


----------



## freakygar (Dec 13, 2007)

yayson said:


> I'm no FOG, been smoking Cubans, regularly-ish, aged, vintage and fresh now for 1 or 2 years only. *I can honestly say however, without a doubt I'd prefer a vintage over fresh if money were not an object. Unfortunately money's a huge object *


:tpd:

That being said, I'm a noob to the CC world. I have been very fortunate through gorillas here to have had a chance to taste a small sample of the spectrum discussed in this thread.

The best cigar I have had to date is a toss up between a 1950 something clear White Owl and a 1970 something Partagas. And if you put a gun to my head to pick between the two it would have to be the Partagas (I think). 
I have a couple other years in the humi yet to try and I can't wait for that.

I guess what I'm getting at is based on my _*EXTREMELY LIMITED*_ smoking of CC's is that _*MY*_ taste buds would pick the old nasty ones first.
However, I'm old and can't really start buying fresh to sit on them for 10 or 20+ years and money is an issue so I am currently in search of fresh or fresher ones that my budget will allow. Dustin, is helping me with suggestions for my sample purchase as he believes we have a similar palate. I am in hopes this will speed the process (and save me money buy not just randomly picking smokes to try) of finding some brands that I can buy a box or two of on a regular basis.

Now that I have ventured into the CC world it is clear to me that other than a select few NC's I would rather buy CC's and have less cigars to smoke then just have a humi full of cigars that I find OK but I truly don't love the smoking experience.

To all the guys who have helped me on this side of the slope, thank you for what I hope is a life time of great smoking experiences.

Did I get off topic? Sorry to ramble. What can I say I'm a CC noob. :ss

Al


----------



## Tour De Cigar (Feb 26, 2007)

Wayne123,
Your original post is excellent, I think you hit some key points.. :tu


----------

