# Are we spoiled?



## Da Klugs

The tales of woe from the past regarding the quality, smokability, accessiblitiy and pricing of cigars come to mind every time I pull out another of a seemingly endless stream of well made perfectly drawing, tasty 06-07 CC's.

My frame of reference on CC's purchased fresh only spans 5 production years and have not experienced the same level of horror stories many tell from the years past.

The cigars just seem to get better and better "OTT". There are always exceptions but in the broad view the quality seems to be coming around favorably in contrast to NC cigars. Kinda strange in that there are a number of NC cigars whose flavor profiles seem to be beginning to rival the CC's in nuance and flavor at the same time.

Are we living in the best of times for all types of cigars and just not sitting back and appreciating the roses being delivered?


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## Navydoc

Da Klugs said:


> The tales of woe from the past regarding the quality, smokability, accessiblitiy and pricing of cigars come to mind every time I pull out another of a seemingly endless stream of well made perfectly drawing, tasty 06-07 CC's.
> 
> My frame of reference on CC's purchased fresh only spans 5 production years and have not experienced the same level of horror stories many tell from the years past.
> 
> The cigars just seem to get better and better "OTT". There are always exceptions but in the broad view the quality seems to be coming around favorably in contrast to NC cigars. *Kinda strange in that there are a number of NC cigars whose flavor profiles seem to be beginning to rival the CC's in nuance and flavor at the same time*.
> 
> Dave.... educate me! What NC's are you referring to?
> 
> Are we living in the best of times for all types of cigars and just not sitting back and appreciating the roses being delivered?


I wonder if someone said this when the 25th's, 1492's, and 1994's came out? Or when someone was sitting back with a fresh box of Dunnies or Davies and thinking how great are these going to be in a few years? Point is....if you enjoy it now...who cares!


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## Dandee

The beauty of competition. 

With a shrinking smoking population worldwide, and the NC competition getting better, Habanos realized that they needed to improve things....And we are reaping the rewards.

'07 PSD4, Monte #2, and SLR DC are smoking fantastic...IMHO


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## Twill413

I have seen a bunch more "wow these are awesome ROTT" reviews over "These need some age" recently than I seem to remember in the short couple of years that I have been a member of this forum. Whether that is due to a change in the palates of the gorilla membership (doubt it) or due to the overall quality of the cigars coming out(my guess), I can't say for sure. Hell, I don't even know if I am actually seeing more of these types of review threads or if it is just my perception. 

It is worth some discussion, and has me changing my long term Cuban plan from trying to buy boxes with a few years of head start age for a long sleep to buying recent production to put away to age myself. I will be most interested to see what these cigars will develop into considering the starting point. Now if only I had that aged supply to get me through the in between time. It's a tough proposition when trying to save/pay for several things at the same time.


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## landhoney

Da Klugs said:


> Are we living in the best of times for all types of cigars and just not sitting back and appreciating the roses being delivered?


This is a topic that really interests me. Specifically whether the great young cigars of today will turn into the 20+ year-old Davidoff's (or the like) of tomorrow. I realize I may never try these cigars, let alone have many on hand to choose from, but at 28, I do have the ability to keep todays great smokes that long. I see reviews of brands no longer available, and think "Were those the ol good days?" In other words, is it the age or were the cigars better to begin with? Does a high smoke-ability factor when young mean the cigars will not rival the 60's,70's, 80's smokes that we noobs drool over? Make sense, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this Da Klugs.


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## Rudder

It was the best of times, It was the worst of times........


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## gorob23

Dave take it one step further. If you haven't read "Flags of Our Fathers" grab it I think you'll like it!

and to answer your question *Yes* in all aspects of Life...:tu

Missed you at So Cal, we needed you to keep a certain someone  in check.."$160.00 and you can kiss my a$$"  he hurt my feelings 

Rob


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## pnoon

gorob23 said:


> Dave take it one step further. If you haven't read "Flags of Our Fathers" grab it I think you'll like it!
> 
> and to answer your question *Yes* in all aspects of Life...:tu
> 
> Missed you at So Cal, we needed you to keep a certain someone  in check.."$160.00 and you can kiss my a$$"  he hurt my feelings
> 
> Rob


Rob - ya can't have your feelings hurt if ya don't have any to begin with.


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## Tristan

I know I've felt spoiled by the last few boxes of new production I've smoked (Partagas PCEs especially).

In general, I feel spoiled by this great community of fellow cigar lovers and plenty of dependable sources that have very competitive prices.


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## yourchoice

Being I have only been serious with this hobsession for about two years, I feel lucky that I dumbed into cigars at a time some feel is so good. :tu




And, BTW, I just realized *right now* while typing, that I've been a member here for two years last week :bl


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## Costa

Tristan said:


> I know I've felt spoiled by the last few boxes of new production I've smoked (Partagas PCEs especially).
> 
> In general, I feel spoiled by this great community of fellow cigar lovers and plenty of dependable sources that have very competitive prices.


I agree totally. :tpd:


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## Sandman

I have to say that I am extremely impressed with what is coming out of Cuba these days. The richness of the recent production is amazing and now I am seeing some of my 06's transforming into even better smokes.........and they started out pretty damn good.

I have high hopes and have a very good feeling about how these will age. Can't wait to see some of the cigars that will be hitting the market in the next few years. I never fear smoking any recent stuff off of the truck, because of the overwhelmingly great experiences I have had in the past few years.

Answer: Yes we are spoiled. :ss


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## Darrell

I'm spoiled because I am fortunate enough to be able to smoke fine CC's from different times and it's because of the great friends I made on CS that opened my eyes to a world of different sticks. I used to smoke CC's in Korea, but had not had one in a long time until a good friend of mine (the K in KMTV) sent me a Bolivar PC in a bomb. Thanks Ji. :tu


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## Da Klugs

Navydoc said:


> Dave.... educate me! What NC's are you referring to?


OBiwan! Me educate you? :r

I was referring to the surprises from DPG et al regarding cigars with nuance. And of course the pinnacle of all cigars.. optimized for our enjoyment.. rolled with only the sweet spot..


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## demiurgic

We are spoiled, sure. 
But these guys are just plain smothered in SPOLIED

http://www.cigaraficionado.com/Cigar/CA_Archives/CA_Show_Article/0,2322,1673,00.html

The part that HIT me. >>

George Wong, perhaps the greatest cigar collector on earth, was handing out 30th Anniversary Cohibas to late-night revelers in his private club in Hong Kong like candy canes to children
The 30th Anniversary was launched in 1996 at a cigar festival in Havana. Only 45 humidors of the Cohiba with 50 cigars each were produced that year, and Wong owns 10 of them. A number of them are already empty. 
"Nobody is leaving this room until we finish the entire box," Wong, 52, said to the group of about 15 people who were with him on this mid-April evening. About half of those in the room were taking turns at karaoke in between puffs of the glorious smoke and glasses of Lafleur 1983 from a magnum. 
A full 30th Anniversary Cohiba Humidor goes for about $30,000, if you can find one in a shop or at auction. Single sticks are about $800 at retail, but I know only one shop in the world that sells them and it's in Hong Kong: Cigarro.


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## yayson

I have no real big frame of reference but I have noticed and agree with some of your sentiments of late



Da Klugs said:


> And of course the pinnacle of all cigars.. optimized for our enjoyment.. rolled with only the sweet spot..


you are the master obscure of reference cigar humor, Dennis Miller would be jealous :tu


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## newcigarz

Sandman said:


> I have to say that I am extremely impressed with what is coming out of Cuba these days. The richness of the recent production is amazing and now I am seeing some of my 06's transforming into even better smokes.........and they started out pretty damn good.
> 
> I have high hopes and have a very good feeling about how these will age. Can't wait to see some of the cigars that will be hitting the market in the next few years. I never fear smoking any recent stuff off of the truck, because of the overwhelmingly great experiences I have had in the past few years.
> 
> Answer: Yes we are spoiled. :ss


:tpd: Well said Matt.


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## 68TriShield

Moi? Spoiled? No. Do I like what I smoke? You betcha :tu


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## Addiction

My take as the noobiest of noobs is this: While Cuba has the best raw materials I think a lot of the great tobacco men left the country since the embargo. I think that the next time something like the Davidoff situation happens, where a great tobacco lover gets to work with the best materials on the world that is when you'll see cigars of that magnitude again.

I also think that any Cuban that isnt past its third maturation will be great in 20 years. But the situation will be the same as today, precious few of us will have them because there just arent many of us buying cigars today for consumption in 2028.

I wasn't smoking in 1994, I don't know of those cigars generated the same acclaim at that moment that the 07s generate today. But yes we are spoiled, and we will realize just how spoilt we all are when an American President opens our borders to Cuba. On the five year cigar equivalent of nuclear winter that follows we will huddle around camp fires with rags on our feet and remember the days when you only had one plugged cigar in a box!


landhoney said:


> This is a topic that really interests me. Specifically whether the great young cigars of today will turn into the 20+ year-old Davidoff's (or the like) of tomorrow. I realize I may never try these cigars, let alone have many on hand to choose from, but at 28, I do have the ability to keep todays great smokes that long. I see reviews of brands no longer available, and think "Were those the ol good days?" In other words, is it the age or were the cigars better to begin with? Does a high smoke-ability factor when young mean the cigars will not rival the 60's,70's, 80's smokes that we noobs drool over? Make sense, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this Da Klugs.


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## Costa

Please excuse my ignorance; what was so special about '94 Davidoffs?

Thank you in advance.


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## One Lonely Smoker

It would be easier to swallow, Dave, if, as I said in another thread, I was not "stuck" with a bunch of boxes I bought under the recommendations of people who said the same exact things you are saying now about 04 and 05 smokes. Now the threads are popping up everywhere about how crappy the BBFs are from then, the BPCs the Shorts...all the cigars people said were so awesome, if I tried to sell them to these people today they would say, uh, 4 year old smokes, from 04 and 05..no thanks. They are one note pieces of crap. They would take one or two for free, or a whole cab if you offered, but they have no VALUE to alot of the same people who told everyone who would listen that they were the best cigars out of Cuba since before the boom.
I am pretty sure I sound bitter, but the truth is, I am absolutely loaded down with aged cigars that are still aging and may yet turn out to be pretty damn good...especially considering how strong and unbalanced they are now. I am just thinking out loud about how I have heard it all before. To put it in perspective, though, these _were_ the best cigars to come out of there since the bad 99, 00, 01 years. And now that we are smoking these unwanted 99, 00 and 01 cigars that seem to be available here and there, they aren't all that bad, when they draw.


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## Addiction

Costa said:


> Please excuse my ignorance; what was so special about '94 Davidoffs?
> 
> Thank you in advance.


Well Nothing, as there were no Davidoffs in 94. But the Davidoffs of the late 70s and early 80s represent blenders and growers working at the top of thier game for a very fastidious task master, a kind of perfect storm for cigars. At least that is the skinny as I understand it since I've had a very small number (5) of Davidoffs. My experience was 3 were unmatchable, 1 was good and the last was nothing special.

94 or I may be confused and its 96 represents the beginning of linea 1492 I believe tho I may be butchering history here LOL.


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## Da Klugs

One Lonely Smoker said:


> It would be easier to swallow, Dave, if, as I said in another thread, I was not "stuck" with a bunch of boxes I bought under the recommendations of people who said the same exact things you are saying now about 04 and 05 smokes. Now the threads are popping up everywhere about how crappy the BBFs are from then, the BPCs the Shorts...all the cigars people said were so awesome, if I tried to sell them to these people today they would say, uh, 4 year old smokes, from 04 and 05..no thanks. They are one note pieces of crap. They would take one or two for free, or a whole cab if you offered, but they have no VALUE to alot of the same people who told everyone who would listen that they were the best cigars out of Cuba since before the boom.
> I am pretty sure I sound bitter, but the truth is, I am absolutely loaded down with aged cigars that are still aging and may yet turn out to be pretty damn good...especially considering how strong and unbalanced they are now. I am just thinking out loud about how I have heard it all before. To put it in perspective, though, these _were_ the best cigars to come out of there since the bad 99, 00, 01 years. And now that we are smoking these unwanted 99, 00 and 01 cigars that seem to be available here and there, they aren't all that bad, when they draw.


Me thinks you protest to much my friend. I don't remember large numbers of smokers saying that these very smokable fresh cigars are "better" than their 4-5 year old versions now. Just seem better than when they were the same age. (At least to me.) Appreciation of fresh cigars seems easier now. Maybe the more we smoke the more we become like the "real Cubans" and like them fresh. Maybe it's the QC being used. Maybe it's the "cooking" or the generification of lines. Most still seem to go flat / downhill after a while and take some time to get better than when they are fresh. I like smoking them off the boat and then every few months to see whats up and it's rare for me to find a cigar that goes on a nice linear progression. More times than not, cigars i coo about fresh go downhill at 6 months to a year and can take years to get back in their more mature profile to a point where they are appreciated as much, but for different reasons. Plus, I don't think there are very many "10 year wait" cigars left in production. Things like the Punch SS #2 etc that really were not smokable for what seems like decades.

04-05 BBF's BPC and Party shorts? .... MMMMMM!!! We all covet what we don't have.


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## Addiction

Everyone says beware of 99-01 but of the things I've bought from that time my experiences are overwhelmingly positive. Other than one box from that period everything else seems really good to me.


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## Addiction

One Lonely,

I'm curious, what do you think of your 04-05 collection? Because thats the only thing that matters. Also I'm sure you can find people buying 3-4 year old Cubans.


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## Costa

Thanks for answering my question.

What a great discussion. Nothing better than listening to people talk who know their sh*t.


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## freakygar

Costa said:


> Thanks for answering my question.
> 
> What a great discussion. *Nothing better than listening to people talk who know their sh*t.*


Exactly. Notice I have not said a word.


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## Addiction

Costa said:


> Thanks for answering my question.
> 
> What a great discussion. Nothing better than listening to people talk who know their sh*t.


To set a fair expectation the only part of that post I'm 100% sure of is there were no CC davidoff in the 90s, I want to say they ended that relationship I'm 87. The story I'm clear on as I've read my mrn throughly, the dates are guesswork.


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## Jay Hemingway-cl

Sandman said:


> Answer: Yes we are spoiled. :ss


:tpd::tpd::tpd:

_(yo B, the last davidoff's to come out of cuba were in '92) :tu_


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## germantown rob

Addiction said:


> Everyone says beware of 99-01 but of the things I've bought from that time my experiences are overwhelmingly positive. Other than one box from that period everything else seems really good to me.


You make a good point and I have had some great smokes from 99-01 but a 98 Lusi blows a 99 out of the water. One of the things I love about smoking cigars are the changes over the years, not the cigars but me. A few years ago a new production cuban was new to me now when I smoke a new production I have had many examples of that cigar from past years. I know what to expect and can taste what this new cigar will age into so I bring to the table some knowledge of what to expect. I believe this knowledge changes the experience of smoking that new production now and I still have tons to learn. If I had a time machine I would go back and smoke a fresh dunhill monte 4 and see what I thought (or many other wonderful smokes) and I would also visit my newb self and give me the same cigar aged and see what the reaction is. Knowledge is power!

I feel spoiled because of the great BOTL's around here have shared their knowledge and cigars to help educate me and others.

Just my :2


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## pnoon

Addiction said:


> To set a fair expectation the only part of that post I'm 100% sure of is there were no CC davidoff in the 90s, I want to say they ended that relationship I'm 87. The story I'm clear on as I've read my mrn throughly, the dates are guesswork.


To the best of my knowledge, the Davidoff marca was discontinued in 1992.


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## Addiction

pnoon said:


> To the best of my knowledge, the Davidoff marca was discontinued in 1992.


See what happens when you don't bring your mrn to work???


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## One Lonely Smoker

Da Klugs said:


> Me thinks you protest to much my friend. I don't remember large numbers of smokers saying that these very smokable fresh cigars are "better" than their 4-5 year old versions now. Just seem better than when they were the same age. (At least to me.)


Oh, don't I always, 
No, what I guess I was saying is that, given the horrible years of QC and sub-par tobacco, we hit upon this new scene in 03 where things were looking WAY up, and people were talking about how these were the best cigars in YEARS. I think we all agree with this so far, right? Well, these types of comments continued for a few years, bringing us to 05. Now there were no real GOTT comments back then, that's why they stick out NOW. What I am saying is that people who really went into a fresh cigar stock up session during those years are NOW hearing comments on various boards about how these are kind of homogenous in flavor across marques and they don't have the richness of character they once did back in 95-98, blabla ad nauseum. So I guess what I meant from the start is, it's kind of sad to be an owner of bulk 03-05 and read these comments. PERSONALLY, I am finding no lack of power in my smokes, which to me says soon they will develop some character, but I would agree that the range and depth of character is just not there today. And that makes me sad. If there are people who say that they are not reading these kinds of comments, don't necessarily PM me, but I visit about 5 boards, and on one in particular, where I am not all that welcome (no one responds to me, as if I were not posting) that is populated by a certain crime family, there are a dozen posts on the first page that have elicited dozens of parrot calls that all say the same thing. These things suck. I am not saying that I think that at all, but the negative advertising is hurting my bottom line, lol. And DAVE, always the rational thinker, you are exactly right, no one was saying how wonderful 03-05 stix were ROTT. But I DO think they are saying that the 06-07 cigars are better OTT than their 03-05 counterparts have EVER GOTTEN. Would you agree?


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## One Lonely Smoker

Oh crap, I just realized that I AM THE TITLE OF THIS THREAD.
Spoiled.


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## One Lonely Smoker

OK, NOW I am officially spoiled. I am looking at 30 Cohiba SigloII tubos.


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## Da Klugs

One Lonely Smoker said:


> And DAVE, always the rational thinker, you are exactly right, no one was saying how wonderful 03-05 stix were ROTT. But I DO think they are saying that the 06-07 cigars are better OTT than their 03-05 counterparts have EVER GOTTEN. Would you agree?


Nope. Willing to wager that up to half the posters never had an 03 off the truck. 25% are old and addled so you can't really use their comments consistently.(I'm in this camp) The final 25% are sharks. They just want to get your 03-05 stock cheap.  I use the mag 46 from Oct 05 as an example. Bought them fresh (early 06). Thought they were "the cats pajamas" at the time. So sparkly good. By 07 they had muted and lost the sparkle. Now? They are beginning to display a numminess that makes me happy. I think many who read on these boards "assume" even if the reviewer is spot on and has the same palate as the reader, that the cigars stay as good or bad or get better from the review date. Not a good assumption in my opinion. It ain't magic and it's the same story I have heard from the FOG's over and over. Maybe Derrick and some of the other FOG's will chime in with a longer view.

I'm not a huge fan of the "years of production" theory. It's friggin tobacco and there are many more important variables than the year except in the extremes re capacity or leaf availability issues. Blend, factory/roll, packaging, storage and elapsed time, that to me, seem to be or have been more the issue.

When I first read pages 6-10 of MRN's book it was an interesting theoretical view on something that is difficult to nail down empirically as an observer. Participating in the hobby and establishing your own views while enjoying the company of our peers and the cigars as they do their thing over time is what it's all about. Probably the most significant thing I have learned about cigars to date is the power of suggestion in various forms is extrememly influential in the smoking experience. If you smoke with others frequently it becomes an ongoing line of thinking that has no finite or concrete basis in any aging theory.


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## Jay Hemingway-cl

pnoon said:


> To the best of my knowledge, the Davidoff marca was discontinued in 1992.





Jay Hemingway said:


> _(yo B, the last davidoff's to come out of cuba were in '92) :tu_


yes peter, you are also correct. twas '92


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## chenvt

One Lonely Smoker said:


> OK, NOW I am officially spoiled. I am looking at 30 Cohiba SigloII tubos.


Stop that, I was doing the same thing.. lol


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## GrtndpwrflOZ

yes


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## Da Klugs

and.....

Does tasty crappy OTT give a cigar better long term performance than being perfectly balanced as a fresh smoke? Navydoc did an interesting vertical taste test on PSD4's (one of my favorite fresh cigars and least favorite aged cigars) that is worth the read.


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## j6ppc

Da Klugs said:


> When I first read pages 6-10 of MRN's book it was an interesting theoretical view on something that is difficult to nail down empirically as an observer. Participating in the hobby and establishing your own views while enjoying the company of our peers and the cigars as they do their thing over time is what it's all about. Probably the most significant thing I have learned about cigars to date is the power of suggestion in various forms is extrememly influential in the smoking experience. If you smoke with others frequently it becomes an ongoing line of thinking that has no finite or concrete basis in any aging theory.


True statement that. For my part I feel fortunate that I have a vinotemp full of cigars that I enjoy. Some new, others that are just beginning to mature (defined as 5+ years IMHO).

It is pretty interesting to buy a box of something fresh and taste the cigars in 3-6 month intervals. I'm continually surprised at the way the cigars change over time. Typically, (assuming a really young cigar say a few months old) I see a marked improvement after a few months *acclimation* to my preferred conditions. The young 'uns then stay tasty for 3-6 months, then seem flat for a year or so and begin to be tasty again.


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## landhoney

Da Klugs said:


> and.....
> 
> Does *tasty crappy* OTT give a cigar better long term performance than being perfectly balanced as a fresh smoke? Navydoc did an interesting vertical taste test on PSD4's (one of my favorite fresh cigars and least favorite aged cigars) that is worth the read.


"Tasty crappy" ? I think I understand what you're saying here, and will search out the thread. Thank you.


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## vicvitola

When I was smoking 96-97s ROTT I didn't know I was spoiled but only that I knew I probably would never want to smoke anything but CCs again. Then when the 99-2000 releases came along it was like "whoa! what happened?!":tg. 

Only a small percentage of the fresher 06-07 stuff I have smoked comes close to how good the 96-97 stuff was ROTT IMO. 

I have just learned to be grateful for what I am currently able to enjoy now .....oh and also to save a few of those outstanding boxes for future emergencies


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## GrtndpwrflOZ

Here's what I am not getting yet.

I smoke a fresh one. It's great...Good....whatever.
in 3 months I smoke another one. I can not compare it to the one I smoked 3 months ago becasue that was *3 MONTHS AGO*. OK, maybe I remember that I didn't like it that much and now I like it a little better. But there are many factors you have to add into the equation: time, temp, atmosphere when you smoked the first one, etc.

Now mind you I don't have half the smokes some of you have but this applies to almost any cigar.

My personal preference is that I like aged cigars.
10 years is good for me. Plus I cannot afford much more than that. Now I also smoke new cigars also and I enjoy the new Boli RC's from 06 & 07. Would I like to smoke an older RC...of coarse....because I have noticed that the cigars I HAVE smoked with some age on them I very much enjoyed.

So in conclusion
I smoke almost anything and if I like it I like it.
If I don't I don't................are we spoiled?


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## Navydoc

One Lonely Smoker said:


> It would be easier to swallow, Dave, if, as I said in another thread, I was not "stuck" with a bunch of boxes I bought under the recommendations of people who said the same exact things you are saying now about 04 and 05 smokes. Now the threads are popping up everywhere about how crappy the BBFs are from then, the BPCs the Shorts...all the cigars people said were so awesome, if I tried to sell them to these people today they would say, uh, 4 year old smokes, from 04 and 05..no thanks. They are one note pieces of crap. They would take one or two for free, or a whole cab if you offered, but they have no VALUE to alot of the same people who told everyone who would listen that they were the best cigars out of Cuba since before the boom.
> I am pretty sure I sound bitter, but the truth is, I am absolutely loaded down with aged cigars that are still aging and may yet turn out to be pretty damn good...especially considering how strong and unbalanced they are now. I am just thinking out loud about how I have heard it all before. To put it in perspective, though, these _were_ the best cigars to come out of there since the bad 99, 00, 01 years. And now that we are smoking these unwanted 99, 00 and 01 cigars that seem to be available here and there, they aren't all that bad, when they draw.


I'll gladly take your '04/'05 BRC's or D4's if you want to let them go! :ss


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## vicvitola

GrtndpwrflOZ said:


> Here's what I am not getting yet.
> 
> I smoke a fresh one. It's great...Good....whatever.
> in 3 months I smoke another one. I can not compare it to the one I smoked 3 months ago becasue that was *3 MONTHS AGO*. OK, maybe I remember that I didn't like it that much and now I like it a little better. But there are many factors you have to add into the equation: time, temp, atmosphere when you smoked the first one, etc.


And......you think you are alone in this?  Some people use a journal but I am simply to lazy and it would take part of the fun out of it for me.


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## Tw3nty

I will try to give a researcher's opinion who has been smoking NC since 91 but a recent neophyte CC smoker. 

First, I believe the technology in agriculture and farming is going to continually improve the production of valued commodities. While technology is killing fruit and other common products, we now have benefited from science enough to refine the production process of the finer agricultural products, the same thing is happening with wines.

Second, I really feel the NC and CC market influence each other. I was talking with Benji Menendez, and he was talking about how this current time is the best time for cigars ever. When the boom hit in the 90's, NC companies were mass producing tobacco. After the boom stopped, companies had an abundant amount of tobacco. So, instead of burning it, they experimented. We now have aged NC cigars, sun grown NC cigars, and tobacco well taken care of. So, the NC world is clearly spoiled.


I believe the knowledge gained in the NC world trickles into the CC world. Thereby, the CC world is using the information gained from the NC world to improve their cigars as well. We all live in a world of legitimization. Example: In the 80's all companies were hiring a personal trainer to help employees get in shape. Companies were doing it because other companies did it. Once the 90's economy tightened up those positions disappeared, but legitimacy gave them a place in business lore. Companies have to keep up with other companies regardless of its beneficialness. However, legitimacy does sometime make companies better.


So, I do think we live in a spoiled world. The cigars being produced are only going to get better because science allows them to improve production and the consumer demands the quality stays. 


Thats just a neophytes opinion. Educate me on any mistakes, please.


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## Addiction

Navydoc said:


> I'll gladly take your '04/'05 BRC's or D4's if you want to let them go! :ss


there is a line Paul and it forms behind ME!


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## Addiction

One Lonely,

In the MRN it talks about the 3 maturation cycles and it sounds as if your sticks are in the valley of some of those cycles, they will be spectacular with the care you obviously give them. So just wait a while longer and warm yourself with the thoughts of how you will already own cigars selling at 1.5 - 2X what you paid for them because they are so good now and those fools who were dissing and dismissing them now can't live without them.

And as everyone knows, if you are selling I am definitely buying. Especially since they raised the price they pay for plasma......


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## germantown rob

If NC is Non Cuban what is CC? Club Cuba? Casa Cuba?


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## icehog3

Da Klugs said:


> and.....
> 
> Does tasty crappy OTT give a cigar better long term performance than being perfectly balanced as a fresh smoke? Navydoc did an interesting vertical taste test on PSD4's (one of my favorite fresh cigars and least favorite aged cigars) that is worth the read.


Yup...I participated in it (Thanks Paul!), and we found the '05 D4s to be the sleeper of the decade. I think there are good and mediocre in every year's cigars, but like Paul, I would be more than willing to buy any '05 PSD4s that someone was trying to "unload".


----------



## BP22

icehog3 said:


> Yup...I participated in it (Thanks Paul!), *and we found the '05 D4s to be the sleeper of the decade.* I think there are good and mediocre in every year's cigars, but like Paul, I would be more than willing to buy any '05 PSD4s that someone was trying to "unload".


Sweet...I just happen to have 15 or so hiding somewhere. 
:tu


----------



## icehog3

BP22 said:


> Sweet...I just happen to have 15 or so hiding somewhere.
> :tu


I was happy to find a 1/2 a box when I got home from the herf as well! :tu


----------



## BigVito

BP22 said:


> Sweet...I just happen to have 15 or so hiding somewhere.
> :tu


I will help find them if needed :r:tu


----------



## Da Klugs

The PSD4 discussion brings up another subject....

Things which are good fresh. Are they necessarily the things which will be great with age? Are the current crop of good fresh cigars just short legged freshies with no long term potential, or are they precursers to epic smokes over the long run? Should we look for more old school yuckiness in fresh cigars (Like PLPC's for example) to age or rely on early results to choose those to put down for a long time?


----------



## icehog3

Da Klugs said:


> The PSD4 discussion brings up another subject....
> 
> Things which are good fresh. Are they necessarily the things which will be great with age? Are the current crop of good fresh cigars just short legged freshies with no long term potential, or are they precursers to epic smokes over the long run? Should we look for more old school yuckiness in fresh cigars (Like PLPC's for example) to age or rely on early results to choose those to put down for a long time?


If you find the answer, Dave, please save the first copy of your book for me.


----------



## BigVito

icehog3 said:


> If you find the answer, Dave, please save the first copy of your book for me.


can I get in on this?


----------



## icehog3

BigVito said:


> can I get in on this?


In the banter thread, let's leave this one for more serious discussion.


----------



## CeeGar

Da Klugs said:


> The PSD4 discussion brings up another subject....
> 
> Things which are good fresh. Are they necessarily the things which will be great with age? Are the current crop of good fresh cigars just short legged freshies with no long term potential, or are they precursers to epic smokes over the long run? Should we look for more old school yuckiness in fresh cigars (Like PLPC's for example) to age or rely on early results to choose those to put down for a long time?


My head asplode! :r Good thing my grey hair is thinning naturally :ss


----------



## Blueface

germantown rob said:


> If NC is Non Cuban what is CC? Club Cuba? Casa Cuba?


Cuban Cigar


----------



## Da Klugs

Tw3nty said:


> I will try to give a researcher's opinion who has been smoking NC since 91 but a recent neophyte CC smoker.
> 
> First, I believe the technology in agriculture and farming is going to continually improve the production of valued commodities. While technology is killing fruit and other common products, we now have benefited from science enough to refine the production process of the finer agricultural products, the same thing is happening with wines.
> 
> Second, I really feel the NC and CC market influence each other. I was talking with Benji Menendez, and he was talking about how this current time is the best time for cigars ever. When the boom hit in the 90's, NC companies were mass producing tobacco. After the boom stopped, companies had an abundant amount of tobacco. So, instead of burning it, they experimented. We now have aged NC cigars, sun grown NC cigars, and tobacco well taken care of. So, the NC world is clearly spoiled.
> 
> I believe the knowledge gained in the NC world trickles into the CC world. Thereby, the CC world is using the information gained from the NC world to improve their cigars as well. We all live in a world of legitimization. Example: In the 80's all companies were hiring a personal trainer to help employees get in shape. Companies were doing it because other companies did it. Once the 90's economy tightened up those positions disappeared, but legitimacy gave them a place in business lore. Companies have to keep up with other companies regardless of its beneficialness. However, legitimacy does sometime make companies better.
> 
> So, I do think we live in a spoiled world. The cigars being produced are only going to get better because science allows them to improve production and the consumer demands the quality stays.
> 
> Thats just a neophytes opinion. Educate me on any mistakes, please.


I think you are spot on when it comes to the "growing of plants" part of the cigar equation. Same with a consistency in the curing process. But what if the inconsistencies were the genesis of certain epic cigars? The blending, rolling packaging aspect ... not so much. From a different perspective what has been the impact of technology on oil painting? The colors may stay longer but the real issue is still in the hands of the artist which in the case of cigars is a combination of the growers, curing barns, blenders, rollers, etc.

The tobacco itself is probably the thing to concentrate on. It's not the same as in the 90's or 80's or 70's or 60's or 50's in varying degrees. Different strains as well as just the hybrid nature of "seeds from weeds" over many generations = some uncertainty about comparing the aging potential of tobacco then vs now.


----------



## lenguamor

Ever NOT the expert, I don't even play in the same ballpark as some of the FOGs here, but...

I have been extremely fortunate with 99-01 stock, as I have had quite a few boxes and singles, and no problems yet.

I didn't get to buy a lot in '07, but I can say that I didn't have a Cuban cigar from '06 that wasn't just dead f*****g on; it's like '06 tobacco was blessed by God as a special, subtle little gift to us to offset the shit that the world around us (politically, socially) has become.

But by the same token, I don't find my '05s to be that far off that standard. I have PLPC's from '05 that are simply sublime.

No doubt, though, that even the most novice among us is blessed to live in this age; the quality control, as mentioned previously, is ON, and the world abounds with great cigars even NOT from my homeland.


----------



## germantown rob

Blueface said:


> Cuban Cigar


Ah Ha, that makes perfect sense, better than ISOM.:ss


----------



## Tw3nty

Da Klugs said:


> I think you are spot on when it comes to the "growing of plants" part of the cigar equation. Same with a consistency in the curing process. But what if the inconsistencies were the genesis of certain epic cigars? The blending, rolling packaging aspect ... not so much. From a different perspective what has been the impact of technology on oil painting? The colors may stay longer but the real issue is still in the hands of the artist which in the case of cigars is a combination of the growers, curing barns, blenders, rollers, etc.
> 
> The tobacco itself is probably the thing to concentrate on. It's not the same as in the 90's or 80's or 70's or 60's or 50's in varying degrees. Different strains as well as just the hybrid nature of "seeds from weeds" over many generations = some uncertainty about comparing the aging potential of tobacco then vs now.


I agree with the artistry of blending. But, you can ask any individual who grows another tobacco illegal in America and they would argue moder developments in fertilizer and plant foods etc. have increased the quality of the modern product. I have many friends with years of experience dealing with a certain contraband, and they argue that todays "shit" is way better than the "shit" of the 60's and 70's. They also argue that it is more potent.

If the most artistic blenders now have better tobacco, they can produce a better product. Using the painting analogy, I would argue some of the development in the artist world was because of the improvements in paint. If you go back before the impressionist movement, the blending of paints was less knowledgeable. As paints were blended better, prettier colors were produced and a whole new color spectrum appeared in the arts world, lighter brighter colors.

The painters were still as talented, they just had better tools to work with. The improvements in paint brushes really revolutionized the painting world.

I believe the current artists can make better cigars because the tobacco is better. Better tobacco makes better cigar artists, if you will.

I have a question for you. I have heard about the revered roller Rodolfo *Taboada*. Is he one of the best of this generation? One of the best ever? Just average? These question, IMHO, are at the heart of your statements. Who are the Da Vinci's and Micheal Angelo's of the cigar blender/roller? Is it possible that the blenders/rollers of today's generations are the best ever or do the blenders/rollers today have better tools to work with?

I really do believe that we are reaping the benefits of past generations and technology. We do seem to get better and better products. I believe the Cubans of 06 and 07 (especially 06) will become masterpieces in the future. However, most great writers were not understood by their time. They achieved greatness as the word caught up to them. So, we must wonder if the bad cigars of today are just ahead of us. I am to young to have enough knowledge to make that argument. I think you could prove or disprove the statement.

I look forward to your response and your moving my reviews....You keep me humble and in line...LOL


----------



## Da Klugs

Tw3nty said:


> I agree with the artistry of blending. But, you can ask any individual who grows another tobacco illegal in America and they would argue moder developments in fertilizer and plant foods etc. have increased the quality of the modern product. I have many friends with years of experience dealing with a certain contraband, and they argue that todays "shit" is way better than the "shit" of the 60's and 70's. They also argue that it is more potent.
> 
> Quantity and yield may not equate to "quality" regarding tobacco. Mold resistant strains may not have the same aging characteristics as their fore bearers. The concentration of THC regarding contraband may or may not not equate well to the characteristics that make Cuban tobacco unique to many. Increasing yield may in fact dilute the very characteristics that we cherish which presumably come partially from the soil conditions.
> 
> If the most artistic blenders now have better tobacco, they can produce a better product. Using the painting analogy, I would argue some of the development in the artist world was because of the improvements in paint. If you go back before the impressionist movement, the blending of paints was less knowledgeable. As paints were blended better, prettier colors were produced and a whole new color spectrum appeared in the arts world, lighter brighter colors.
> 
> The argument lies on the term better. Is the tobacco better or merely better / more consistently cured and prepared? The strain itself may in fact be a downgrade from past versions in regards to what we expect from age. Only time will tell. I sure hope you're right.
> 
> The painters were still as talented, they just had better tools to work with. The improvements in paint brushes really revolutionized the painting world.
> 
> I believe the current artists can make better cigars because the tobacco is better. Better tobacco makes better cigar artists, if you will.
> 
> The quality of rollers? Dunno. If this trade is like most, the distractions of the modern world are far greater than those of 30 years ago. Does it make it harder to perfect a trade or not, and does the "technology improvement" overcome this in a basically unchanged profession/task that is rolling cigars?
> 
> I have a question for you. I have heard about the revered roller Rodolfo *Taboada*. Is he one of the best of this generation? One of the best ever? Just average? These question, IMHO, are at the heart of your statements. Who are the Da Vinci's and Micheal Angelo's of the cigar blender/roller? Is it possible that the blenders/rollers of today's generations are the best ever or do the blenders/rollers today have better tools to work with?
> 
> I figure, our version of Da Vinci or Micheal Angelo will probably come from our times version of artistic medium vs traditional paint and canvas.
> 
> They grade/categorize rollers on a scale which is based upon experience and the cigars they can roll. My understanding is that...
> 
> There is a standard level of entry rollers that you can call level 4
> After some period of time and development of skills to roll basic shapes they graduate to a level 5.
> Once they master the odd shapes they move to level 6
> Masters that can roll everything well are considered level 7.
> 
> Or
> 
> Same scale starting after apprenticeship = 7 then 8 then 9
> 
> In either case the real issue is time and experience. Those you have mentioned are considered Masters have been at it 30+ years and earned a well deserved rep. It's only been 10 since the production and staffing explosion and ... well you can do the math.
> 
> I really do believe that we are reaping the benefits of past generations and technology. We do seem to get better and better products. I believe the Cubans of 06 and 07 (especially 06) will become masterpieces in the future. However, most great writers were not understood by their time. They achieved greatness as the word caught up to them. So, we must wonder if the bad cigars of today are just ahead of us. I am to young to have enough knowledge to make that argument. I think you could prove or disprove the statement.
> 
> I have no frame of reference to agree or disagree. If it's about consistency of curing then we are in for a great ride. If it's about the varietal of leaf or the average age of experience of rollers, then maybe not. I hope you are right.
> 
> I look forward to your response and your moving my reviews....You keep me humble and in line...LOL


We do what we can.


----------



## landhoney

Da Klugs said:


> The PSD4 discussion brings up another subject....
> Things which are good fresh. Are they necessarily the things which will be great with age? Are the current crop of good fresh cigars just short legged freshies with no long term potential, or are they precursers to epic smokes over the long run? Should we look for more old school yuckiness in fresh cigars (Like PLPC's for example) to age or rely on early results to choose those to put down for a long time?





landhoney said:


> Does a high smoke-ability factor when young mean the cigars will not rival the 60's,70's, 80's smokes that we noobs drool over? Make sense, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this Da Klugs.


This is what I was asking. Noobs get no respect :r I guess because we don't deserve it yet.


----------



## Fishbeadtwo

Great read guys, thanks!


----------



## Cadillac

If this is the case, if we are in the era of increasing quality of cigars, then why so much disappointment with the strength and bold character of our beloved smokes? Is this not an issue? It is not uncommon to hear, "Yes, those Lusi's are good, but not as good as -- years ago". Or to hear that HdM dbl coronas are not as "strong" as they used to be.

I am by no means an aged cigar expert, but by playing devil's advocate here, aren't we just simply making a trade off by saying product is better now, but the smoking profiles where better back in the day?


----------



## Navydoc

Da Klugs said:


> The PSD4 discussion brings up another subject....
> 
> Things which are good fresh. Are they necessarily the things which will be great with age? Are the current crop of good fresh cigars just short legged freshies with no long term potential, or are they precursers to epic smokes over the long run? Should we look for more old school yuckiness in fresh cigars (Like PLPC's for example) to age or rely on early results to choose those to put down for a long time?


In my limited experience I have found that cigars that seem to rock ROTT tend to go sick quicker and take longer to come back around. This is comparable to wine in that a great cab will be very approachable when first released but then goes to sleep......and that sleep period may last 10+ years but when they come back around, holy cow!!, do they come back around. When aging cigars it's all about patience......great things come to those who wait :tu


----------



## pnoon

Navydoc said:


> In my limited experience . . .


:r :r :r :r :r :r :r :r :r :r :r :r


----------



## Costa

Like someone else mentioned, great read. If you are taking the time to write these educational post's, thank you for that, it is not going unstudied.

Someone mentioned a book. Was that sarcasm, or is there really a book. I am very interested in studying the maturation cycles of our sticks that someone mentioned.

I hate even posting in this thread; I feel like the 5 year old kid who runs in the room and asks a question while the adults are talking about something important......

I googled "maturation cycles of cigars" and got nothing and did a search of "maturation cycles" on CS, and only this post came up. Can someone explain that to me or drop me a link so I can educate myself? Thank you!


----------



## yayson

Costa said:


> Like someone else mentioned, great read. If you are taking the time to write these educational post's, thank you for that, it is not going unstudied.
> 
> Someone mentioned a book. Was that sarcasm, or is there really a book. I am very interested in studying the maturation cycles of our sticks that someone mentioned.
> 
> I hate even posting in this thread; I feel like the 5 year old kid who runs in the room and asks a question while the adults are talking about something important......
> 
> I googled "maturation cycles of cigars" and got nothing and did a search of "maturation cycles" on CS, and only this post came up. Can someone explain that to me or drop me a link so I can educate myself? Thank you!


probably:
http://www.cigarmony.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=248


----------



## Addiction

Navydoc said:


> *In my limited experience* ......


How did you even write that with a straight face?


----------



## Costa

yayson said:


> probably:
> http://www.cigarmony.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=248


Thank you so much yayson. I have seen this before, but did not know it went into maturation cycles and such.

Does this book come recommended by the BOTLs here? If so, I'm buying. Thank you guys, again.


----------



## pnoon

Costa said:


> Thank you so much yayson. I have seen this before, but did not know it went into maturation cycles and such.
> 
> Does this book come recommended by the BOTLs here? If so, I'm buying. Thank you guys, again.


Quite highly. But it is a reference book for the most part. Not everyone agrees with the opinions of Min Ron Nee.


----------



## ResIpsa

Costa said:


> Thank you so much yayson. I have seen this before, but did not know it went into maturation cycles and such.
> 
> *Does this book come recommended by the BOTLs here*? If so, I'm buying. Thank you guys, again.


Yes. It's viewed by many as the definitive resource on Cuban cigars



pnoon said:


> Quite highly. But it is a reference book for the most part. Not everyone agrees with the opinions of Min Ron Nee.


While still agreeing with the Pnoonster.


----------



## Costa

pnoon said:


> Quite highly. But it is a reference book for the most part. Not everyone agrees with the opinions of Min Ron Nee.


Thanks pnoon. What my sticks are going through (maturation, sick period, etc.) and how that affects taste fascinates me to NO END.


----------



## chenvt

I agree with many that the OTT stuff this year has been great. I don't have much of a comparison to previous years, only the fact that I have been pleased with almost anything I've had from 07. 

To add on, do you think there's a doubly whammy of being spoiled with the cheap abundance of aged stock right now? I'm specifically referring to the 1999-2001 stock that's coming out like crazy and at a steal too. While not that popular OTT, they seem to have drastically improved with age.

Have all the stars aligned?


----------



## Addiction

germantown rob said:


> If NC is Non Cuban what is CC? Club Cuba? Casa Cuba?


nc = noncuban cigar
cc = cuban sigar


----------



## jkim05

Addiction said:


> cc = cuban sigar


but that's "cs"


----------



## Navydoc

jkim05 said:


> but that's "cs"


So Bryan can't type cut him some slack 

CC is CUBAN CIGAR.....why some have difficulty writing CUBAN CIGAR I don't know but there you go


----------



## jkim05

Navydoc said:


> So Bryan can't type cut him some slack
> 
> CC is CUBAN CIGAR.....why some have difficulty writing CUBAN CIGAR I don't know but there you go


I know, I was just messing with him. I'm with you though...maybe some people think there's an embargo on the word as well?


----------



## Addiction

I started saying CC and NC because of this board, that and ISOM. I always assumed someone here who knew something about the G-men had come with this clearly uncrackable code as a futher safety mechanism. I'll stop using that abbreviation. 

As far as the typing big fat fingers and tiny iPhone keys, these things are bound to happen.


----------



## gvarsity

demiurgic said:


> We are spoiled, sure.
> But these guys are just plain smothered in SPOLIED
> 
> http://www.cigaraficionado.com/Cigar/CA_Archives/CA_Show_Article/0,2322,1673,00.html
> 
> The part that HIT me. >>
> 
> George Wong, perhaps the greatest cigar collector on earth, was handing out 30th Anniversary Cohibas to late-night revelers in his private club in Hong Kong like candy canes to children
> The 30th Anniversary was launched in 1996 at a cigar festival in Havana. Only 45 humidors of the Cohiba with 50 cigars each were produced that year, and Wong owns 10 of them. A number of them are already empty.
> "Nobody is leaving this room until we finish the entire box," Wong, 52, said to the group of about 15 people who were with him on this mid-April evening. About half of those in the room were taking turns at karaoke in between puffs of the glorious smoke and glasses of Lafleur 1983 from a magnum.
> A full 30th Anniversary Cohiba Humidor goes for about $30,000, if you can find one in a shop or at auction. Single sticks are about $800 at retail, but I know only one shop in the world that sells them and it's in Hong Kong: Cigarro.


What annoys me is this is about money not cigars. Handing out 800$ sticks that pieces of art to people many of whom would be happy with a Swisher Sweets flavor and nuance wise as long as they were told it was an 800$ smoke. This reminds me of the stories of the tech billionaires buying Bordeaux futures at 1000$ a bottle and then drinking them oblivious to the fact that to a oenophile or even just someone with a basic appreciation of wine would recognize that they don't taste good now and aren't likely to be considered drinkable for 10+ years. Just wasting a great limited resource to say they are drinking 1000$+ a bottle wine. Off:sb

Still I wouldn't mind being out at a club an happen to get hit by one of those.

Back to the original post. I have not been actively part of the hobby very long but my feeling from my time on CS is that we are currently in a boom but without the over publicity of the 90's. There are new blends of NC's coming out at a good clip and many of them are raising the bar for NC cigars. It also seems like Habanos SA and Cubatabaco is creating a lot of new limited blends that are giving the CC collector a broader range of profiles to experience and general quality control and consistency is up. I can't speak at all to the aged Cuban market. Overall it seems like at least in the post WWII era there is an almost unprecedented level of quality and variety cigars on the market. Which is good for us. Now lets not tell anyone. :ss


----------



## the nub

gvarsity said:


> What annoys me is this is about money not cigars. Handing out 800$ sticks that pieces of art to people many of whom would be happy with a Swisher Sweets flavor and nuance wise as long as they were told it was an 800$ smoke.


Not to lead this too far off topic, but I believe you may be incorrect about your particular reference. While he may be rich, that guy is said to know a _fair_ bit about cigars. It stands to reason that a connoisseur wouldn't 'waste' such a cigar but rather, he would share it with like minded individuals.


----------



## One Lonely Smoker

I think I can also lend something to this particular topic. I have an extensive collection of contraband tobacco, and one of the inconvenient truth's about my love affair is that I tend to give away more than half of what I have. Most people that know of me through my writing here know that I need to give someone a cigar to get them to smoke with me, as I am so obnoxious. But I like to have a persons first taste of cuban tobacco be very positive so that they can understand what the fuss is about and so that when faced with the fakes in the world, they can have a baseline to taste against. This person obviously knows where I am coming from, and he had his associates start at the top, I guess. My 'handle' is based on the fact that I interact with others so rarely that I can usually be found smoking with no one to enjoy the experience with...just sitting there puffing away in silence. And THAT my friends, is a shame.


----------



## vicvitola

Addiction said:


> I started saying CC and NC because of this board, that and ISOM. I always assumed someone here who knew something about the G-men had come with this clearly uncrackable code as a futher safety mechanism. I'll stop using that abbreviation.


I use abbreviations because I'm lazy:ss


----------



## icehog3

One Lonely Smoker said:


> My 'handle' is based on the fact that I interact with others so rarely that I can usually be found smoking with no one to enjoy the experience with...just sitting there puffing away in silence. And THAT my friends, is a shame.


That is a shame....hope we can burn one together one day.


----------



## EastBay

vicvitola said:


> When I was smoking 96-97s ROTT I didn't know I was spoiled but only that I knew I probably would never want to smoke anything but CCs again. Then when the 99-2000 releases came along it was like "whoa! what happened?!":tg.


You're spot on with this statement. I stopped buying after '97s hit the market, that was the last year before their quality went down, fast. 
.
.
.
.
Just think about it. They had so many acres planted, this is an island after all, and you can't really stretch it. As the demand increased in mid 90s they started planting where they didn't before. Just to meet the demand, the hell with QA. Same as with grapes and pretty much any other farm crop, you do need certain soil, weather, etc. conditions in order to produce great quality material. The newer plantings are simply not it, had those new acres shown good promise in decades past they would have been planted a long time ago. There is very little that is new under the sun...

They recently cut back on production numbers, not by much, but enough to reign in quality they used to have. I still don't buy their recent marketing about improved quality (to be honest, I have no newer vintage cigars to compare to). I do have a bunch of '96-97 sticks aging peacefully and that will be enough to last me until that day I can change my opinion.

I happily smoke Nicaraguan cigars since late 90s, IMO they are a pretty good substitute to CCs with very few quality control issues. Look at the ash, same magnesium rich soils as on Cuba, in a blind setup tasting one would be very hard pressed to tell them apart.

As for vintages, as someone mentioned that already, they DO MAKE all of the difference, make no mistake about that. Same as wine and other crops. Either the nature co-operates or it does not. Flavor always reflects vintage conditions, if you don't have enough sunny and dry days, no matter what you do once you pick the leaves, you won't be able to match the flavor from a great (weather) year. Any farmer will tell you that.

Nice thread, keep it up!


----------



## EastBay

Cadillac said:


> If this is the case, if we are in the era of increasing quality of cigars, then why so much disappointment with the strength and bold character of our beloved smokes? Is this not an issue? It is not uncommon to hear, "Yes, those Lusi's are good, but not as good as -- years ago". Or to hear that HdM dbl coronas are not as "strong" as they used to be.
> 
> I am by no means an aged cigar expert, but by playing devil's advocate here, aren't we just simply making a trade off by saying product is better now, but the smoking profiles where better back in the day?


Interesting take on CCs. Lusis were always on a mild side, this from my limited experience with CCs going back to just early 90s. Same for pretty much any other large CC made, including the famed RyJ Churchill Tubo and HdM Churchills (I finished my last one 2 years ago). If someone wanted "power", then they smoked smaller vitolas, no larger than a Robusto, and most likely a Corona or Petite Corona size (sadly I didn't buy enough HdM Epi #2s and Bolivar PCs). I think it is still true today unless Cuba completely re-worked their blends/marketing since 90s, which I seriously doubt.

I just had a '73 RyJ Petite Corona this past weekend and you could easily feel the strength/power in this stick, all on top of incredible complexity aging imparted by now. Actually, the biggest mistakes I made buying CCs was chasing large vitolas (I prefer strong cigars and back then didn't know better), they were all too mild.


----------



## One Lonely Smoker

EastBay said:


> Look at the ash, same magnesium rich soils as on Cuba, in a blind setup tasting one would be very hard pressed to tell them apart.Nice thread, keep it up!


I am sincerely hoping you are talking about "visually" 'tasting' ashes here, and not tasting cigars, because if you set up a blind tasting, I could spot the cuban against a puro of ANY country of export, Nicaragua would be no particular challenge. But that's just my take. A person who could not select the cuban cigar in a line-up either has lost their ability to taste or has little to no experience with CC's, IMHO. YOU WERE talking about diffrentiating ashes, right?


----------



## Scimmia

One Lonely Smoker said:


> I am sincerely hoping you are talking about "visually" 'tasting' ashes here, and not tasting cigars, because if you set up a blind tasting, I could spot the cuban against a puro of ANY country of export, Nicaragua would be no particular challenge. But that's just my take. A person who could not select the cuban cigar in a line-up either has lost their ability to taste or has little to no experience with CC's, IMHO. YOU WERE talking about diffrentiating ashes, right?


ug, did you really have to open that door again? Do a search for the great fredster blind taste test.


----------



## landhoney

Scimmia said:


> ug, did you really have to open that door again? Do a search for the great fredster blind taste test.


I have read the thread in question, but why the hate over blind 'cuban vs. non-cuban' tastings? Just because of that one thread (that got ugly)? I think its an interesting topic and would love to do a tasting like this myself at somepoint (with more 'normal' CC's and NC's).


----------



## Costa

Scimmia said:


> ug, did you really have to open that door again? Do a search for the great fredster blind taste test.


Alright I found that thread, and remember when it was going on, but must have stopped reading it. It has over 700 posts and 48 pages.

What I really want to know, did Fredster get the 7 out of 10 CC/NC tasting correct, and what was the final conclusion? There are just too many post's, I tried, but its to convoluted (and I am in the office).....thanks in advance.


----------



## landhoney

Costa said:


> Alright I found that thread, and remember when it was going on, but must have stopped reading it. It has over 700 posts and 48 pages.
> 
> What I really want to know, did Fredster get the 7 out of 10 CC/NC tasting correct, and what was the final conclusion? There are just too many post's, I tried, but its to convoluted (and I am in the office).....thanks in advance.


My take was 6/10


----------



## EastBay

One Lonely Smoker said:


> I am sincerely hoping you are talking about "visually" 'tasting' ashes here, and not tasting cigars, because if you set up a blind tasting, I could spot the cuban against a puro of ANY country of export, Nicaragua would be no particular challenge. But that's just my take. A person who could not select the cuban cigar in a line-up either has lost their ability to taste or has little to no experience with CC's, IMHO. YOU WERE talking about diffrentiating ashes, right?


Seems like this particular topic has been addresses before, let's not go into that direction then. All I can say is that expert palates who claim they can tell a French Burgundy from CA Pinot Noir in a blind setup, have failed to do so with any consistency time and again (and most of the time weren't even close). Cigar wise, I've smoked enough by now to know it will hold true as well. At least with wine you can truly set up a blind test, easily so. The problem with prior blind cigar tests is that you still see the ash and you still see the wrapper and the construction of the test cigar, and they ARE easy to tell apart without even smoking, so please call me a non-believer about any and all tests that have been done before (I have not searched for the thread in question, may have more time tonight). Now, if someone wants to do a true CIGAR blind taste test, blindfold and all, then give me a call, I am game and will actually happily bet on the outcome.

Back to the topic on hand. To be honest, if that's the only objection you have to my observations on the subject on hand, then there is not much else to discuss 

My only other observation, and I hope I won't ruffle any feathers here, is that when compared to years past, say the days of ASC in the '90s, it seems that everyone and their mother is now smoking CCs and has easy access to them (when, in fact, it seems to be tougher to get the shipments in these days). So, my question related to all the numerous tasting notes on this and other boards is, "How many are sure they are actually smoking legit CCs and not the fakes?" There is simply something not right with the picture of boatloads of CCs sitting in local humis, logistically does not make any sense at all. And every time I see a price per stick quoted (low ones) I simply cringe, CC prices did go up steeply a few years back and even more so when dollar fell so much against the euro. I buy French wine barrels and let me tell you it is not pretty these days, price wise. For someone to state they paid X dollars for _________ when that SAME price was paid prior to euro almost doubling in strength in recent times tells me there is something very wrong with this picture.

Just a simple reference to "Lusis used to be stronger..." makes me think that whoever stated that has never smoked a legit Lusi in the first place.


----------



## One Lonely Smoker

OOps, I forgot to base my take on any given subject on whether or not it could start another riot :tu. I don't usually read Fredster posts, since he disagrees with everything I have ever said, so I missed that one I guess. Sorry. But I certainly understand that ANY post holds the potential for a completely unintended consequence, so point taken. Why doesn't Scimmia send me three packs of two cigars each and see if HE can fool me. Ain't gonna happen.

To be clear, for the original poster, or argument starter, if it WAS ashes he was talking about, I can't help you. Who the F knows from ashes. But blind tasting, get serious. Why do you think that people are so tired of typing out the same crap over and over for people who call CC smokers snobs. IT JUST TASTES BETTER, and that taste is identifiable, unless it's one of those dreadful EL's


----------



## One Lonely Smoker

EastBay said:


> There is simply something not right with the picture of boatloads of CCs sitting in local humis, logistically does not make any sense at all. And every time I see a price per stick quoted (low ones) I simply cringe, CC prices did go up steeply a few years back and even more so when dollar fell so much against the euro. I buy French wine barrels and let me tell you it is not pretty these days, price wise. For someone to state they paid X dollars for _________ when that SAME price was paid prior to euro almost doubling in strength in recent times tells me there is something very wrong with this picture..


Yup, you GOT us on that one. Where is my vendor's phone number??/


----------



## germantown rob

EastBay said:


> Seems like this particular topic has been addresses before, let's not go into that direction then. All I can say is that expert palates who claim they can tell a French Burgundy from CA Pinot Noir in a blind setup, have failed to do so with any consistency time and again (and most of the time weren't even close). Cigar wise, I've smoked enough by now to know it will hold true as well. At least with wine you can truly set up a blind test, easily so. The problem with prior blind cigar tests is that you still see the ash and you still see the wrapper and the construction of the test cigar, and they ARE easy to tell apart without even smoking, so please call me a non-believer about any and all tests that have been done before (I have not searched for the thread in question, may have more time tonight). Now, if someone wants to do a true CIGAR blind taste test, blindfold and all, then give me a call, I am game and will actually happily bet on the outcome.
> 
> Back to the topic on hand. To be honest, if that's the only objection you have to my observations on the subject on hand, then there is not much else to discuss
> 
> My only other observation, and I hope I won't ruffle any feathers here, is that when compared to years past, say the days of ASC in the '90s, it seems that everyone and their mother is now smoking CCs and has easy access to them (when, in fact, it seems to be tougher to get the shipments in these days). So, my question related to all the numerous tasting notes on this and other boards is, "How many are sure they are actually smoking legit CCs and not the fakes?" There is simply something not right with the picture of boatloads of CCs sitting in local humis, logistically does not make any sense at all. And every time I see a price per stick quoted (low ones) I simply cringe, CC prices did go up steeply a few years back and even more so when dollar fell so much against the euro. I buy French wine barrels and let me tell you it is not pretty these days, price wise. For someone to state they paid X dollars for _________ when that SAME price was paid prior to euro almost doubling in strength in recent times tells me there is something very wrong with this picture.
> 
> Just a simple reference to "Lusis used to be stronger..." makes me think that whoever stated that has never smoked a legit Lusi in the first place.



The tobacco used to make lusi's pre 95 was stronger, it is no longer the same blend it was pre 95. There are plenty of fakes going around that is very true but there is the rest of the world that goes to the store or an on line vender and gets their Cuban's, are you saying that the whole world is smoking fakes. :r


----------



## Costa

The Internet has made securing CCs (with a proven source) much easier, no?

I think "the circles" we run in tend to make us think every humi has boxes of CC.

But In reality, based on our love of theses particular cigars, we tend to attract and congregate in certain areas (like this forum) where owning boxes of CCs is the norm. 

I would doubt many at this level are smoking glass topped product or out and out fakes, although I could be wrong.

Interesting posts.


----------



## j6ppc

EastBay said:


> Now, if someone wants to do a true CIGAR blind taste test, blindfold and all, then give me a call, I am game and will actually happily bet on the outcome.
> *That should be interesting if anyone takes you up on that.*
> Back to the topic on hand. To be honest, if that's the only objection you have to my observations on the subject on hand, then there is not much else to discuss
> 
> My only other observation, and I hope I won't ruffle any feathers here, is that when compared to years past, say the days of ASC in the '90s, it seems that everyone and their mother is now smoking CCs and has easy access to them (when, in fact, it seems to be tougher to get the shipments in these days). So, my question related to all the numerous tasting notes on this and other boards is, "How many are sure they are actually smoking legit CCs and not the fakes?" There is simply something not right with the picture of boatloads of CCs sitting in local humis, logistically does not make any sense at all. And every time I see a price per stick quoted (low ones) I simply cringe, CC prices did go up steeply a few years back and even more so when dollar fell so much against the euro. I buy French wine barrels and let me tell you it is not pretty these days, price wise. For someone to state they paid X dollars for _________ when that SAME price was paid prior to euro almost doubling in strength in recent times tells me there is something very wrong with this picture.
> *Wow that is a pretty broad assertion. If I understand that correctly then a large percentage of Cuban cigars folks here and elsewhere are smoking are in fact not cuban at all. *
> Just a simple reference to "Lusis used to be stronger..." makes me think that whoever stated that has never smoked a legit Lusi in the first place.
> *I don't have my reference materials at hand but seem to recall that a number of marcas/vitolas underwent significant blend changes in the '99 to '01 time frame.*





EastBay said:


> You're spot on with this statement. I stopped buying after '97s hit the market, that was the last year before their quality went down, fast.
> *So the assertion that many/most of the Cubans here in this country are fake is not only acectdotal but based on 11 year old information? *


*In blue above*


----------



## Scimmia

One Lonely Smoker said:


> Why doesn't Scimmia send me three packs of two cigars each and see if HE can fool me. Ain't gonna happen.


Why? Because it has already been established over and over, both on this forum and others, that this feat is much tougher than you make it out to be, and that's all I was trying to convey. You seem extremely arrogant to put yourself above those that have done the test, Fredster included.


----------



## germantown rob

Scimmia said:


> Why? Because it has already been established over and over, both on this forum and others, that this feat is much tougher than you make it out to be, and that's all I was trying to convey. You seem extremely arrogant to put yourself above those that have done the test, Fredster included.


:tpd:

This has been done with pallets that I think are top notch, far greater than mine, and even they have been thrown.


----------



## Addiction

One poster asked how do you know you are legit? For me that is easy. There are elders here and other spots that I trust implicitly. I buy my cigars from the sources they have indicated as quality. Some of these guys were smoking quality sticks back when I was wondering what we were going to have for snack time at school, lol. 

I am 110% sure that I own exactly 16 fakes, due to a trade I made before I know better, however that box of fakes is very tasty.


----------



## EastBay

OK, One at a time...

Ash or not, I can only tell you that I USED to be a CC smoker, no longer for some time now precisely because I do not like the taste (at least when compared to older releases). I do have one here and there, though, as my stock matures. Or to put it another way, I rather prefer Nicaraguan and Honduran tobacco more. 

We obviously do not see things same way in regard to tastings and such, you are dead set on claiming that once someone smokes a CC they are hooked for life and I can only tell you that I, for one, am not. All palates are different, to claim there is only one way to enjoy a cigar is, to put it mildly, myopic. 

Have not read the thread everyone points to, but if I am right in seeing the 7 out of 10 number claimed above, then that is the proof in itself than 100% accuracy is impossible, precisely what I am pointing out. 
.
.
.
.
Pre '05 or not, anyone claiming that Lusi used to be strong, in any way you feel like describing it, is off the mark. When compared to smaller vitolas Lusi was NEVER in contention to begin with, simply put the smaller the CC the stronger it is. Was, is and will be. I stopped buying larger sizes way back when because they never delivered the goods strength wise.
.
.
.
.
Guess how I and others used to order them back then? I only ordered from an authorized Habanos dealer. In addition to having some brought in by friends in my case (also bought at Habanos dealers). But primarily, online sources back then. With one exception: customs guys got smarter these days and are on to the shipments. Just how many "books" or "ashtrays" can one receive from overseas? So, if anything, less rather than more, legit cigars make it here.

I am more than willing to bet that a significant portion of the tasting notes on CCs is actually based on fakes. Common sense says so. Prices most people pay for the cigars in question make this absolutely factual, prices HAVE changed, A LOT, since the 90s and even before euro showed up and then skyrocketed against the dollar and yet I see same prices quoted online (in dollars) I saw back in 90s (from a number of these same "dealers"), doesn't take much to figure out these are fake. 

Yes, there ARE some reputable online sources, but last time I checked (about a month or so ago) prices did reflect the real deal and were much higher than most online source used. I know of only 3 online sources I could trust and their prices across the board reflect (much higher) premiums when compared to days past ('90s), again, as they should. Anyone paying less than that, and in many cases way less than that, should be aware he is buying fake cigars, nice packaging/labels and box codes or not.

Just saw the latest Fujipub mailer, prices are screaming FAKE at me. RASS at only 97 euros including shipping. They used to be roughly $200 a box (plus shipping charges) back in '90s. FOR THE REAL DEAL. Even in Spain where prices used to be cheapest in Europe (different blends, though). Since then, Habanos has bumped up the prices, euro showed up and is what, 65% stronger these days, and yet, price for this great cigar has HALVED since? What gives?

So, call me unconvinced.


----------



## germantown rob

EastBay said:


> OK, One at a time...
> 
> Ash or not, I can only tell you that I USED to be a CC smoker, no longer for some time now precisely because I do not like the taste (at least when compared to older releases). I do have one here and there, though, as my stock matures. Or to put it another way, I rather prefer Nicaraguan and Honduran tobacco more.
> 
> We obviously do not see things same way in regard to tastings and such, you are dead set on claiming that once someone smokes a CC they are hooked for life and I can only tell you that I, for one, am not. All palates are different, to claim there is only one way to enjoy a cigar is, to put it mildly, myopic.
> 
> Have not read the thread everyone points to, but if I am right in seeing the 7 out of 10 number claimed above, then that is the proof in itself than 100% accuracy is impossible, precisely what I am pointing out.
> .
> .
> .
> .
> Pre '05 or not, anyone claiming that Lusi used to be strong, in any way you feel like describing it, is off the mark. When compared to smaller vitolas Lusi was NEVER in contention to begin with, simply put the smaller the CC the stronger it is. Was, is and will be. I stopped buying larger sizes way back when because they never delivered the goods strength wise.
> .
> .
> .
> .
> Guess how I and others used to order them back then? I only ordered from an authorized Habanos dealer. In addition to having some brought in by friends in my case (also bought at Habanos dealers). But primarily, online sources back then. With one exception: customs guys got smarter these days and are on to the shipments. Just how many "books" or "ashtrays" can one receive from overseas? So, if anything, less rather than more, legit cigars make it here.
> 
> I am more than willing to bet that a significant portion of the tasting notes on CCs is actually based on fakes. Common sense says so. Prices most people pay for the cigars in question make this absolutely factual, prices HAVE changed, A LOT, since the 90s and even before euro showed up and then skyrocketed against the dollar and yet I see same prices quoted online (in dollars) I saw back in 90s (from a number of these same "dealers"), doesn't take much to figure out these are fake.
> 
> Yes, there ARE some reputable online sources, but last time I checked (about a month or so ago) prices did reflect the real deal and were much higher than most online source used. I know of only 3 online sources I could trust and their prices across the board reflect (much higher) premiums when compared to days past ('90s), again, as they should. Anyone paying less than that, and in many cases way less than that, should be aware he is buying fake cigars, nice packaging/labels and box codes or not.
> 
> Just saw the latest Fujipub mailer, prices are screaming FAKE at me. RASS at only 97 euros including shipping. They used to be roughly $200 a box (plus shipping charges) back in '90s. FOR THE REAL DEAL. Even in Spain where prices used to be cheapest in Europe (different blends, though). Since then, Habanos has bumped up the prices, euro showed up and is what, 65% stronger these days, and yet, price for this great cigar has HALVED since? What gives?
> 
> So, call me unconvinced.


Well you are my new GOD! You seem to know every thing about cubans and sources. As I stated above and you seem to answer, there are only 3 online sources that can be trusted on the world wide web. I have to tell my European friends that all their stuff is :BS because it didn't come from your sources, that is going to make millions of non US residents very upset. I only stated Lusi's where stronger pre 95, not that they where the strongest violo. I,I,I am at a complete loss of words here...please edumacate me with all your wisdom that non of us seem to have.:mn


----------



## EastBay

j6ppc,

*RE: That should be interesting if anyone takes you up on that.*

Like I said, bring it on. I am tired of all the claims by now and after seeing one self appointed legend in his mind after another fail miserably in wine tastings I know how this one will end as well. 


One key thing to remember: only 100% accuracy in this test counts, anything else is actually a failure and proof to the contrary. I hope you understand the logic behind this.


*RE: Wow that is a pretty broad assertion. If I understand that correctly then a large percentage of Cuban cigars folks here and elsewhere are smoking are in fact not cuban at all.*

You got that right. FACT.

For every legit cigar bought, there is a hundred (or more) bought out of those fancy glass tops (whether one knows they came from the glass top or not).

Dominica cannot legally sell ANY Cuban made product, yet there are claims, posted in just the past day or two on this here board, that one can buy a legit stick at Duty Free there. Simply not true (in that they are legit). But check how many posters believe they bought the real deal, I was amazed.

Just one example, I can cite more.

*RE: I don't have my reference materials at hand but seem to recall that a number of marcas/vitolas underwent significant blend changes in the '99 to '01 time frame.*

Read my post again. That's when they started using the newly planted fields to increase production. It also coincided with them using poorly trained rollers or not trained at all, they were short handed at the factories with all that newly planted tobacco kicking in and hired whoever was willing to work. Things may have improved since then (tobacco getting better and work force getting more experienced, but they are still not at the level they used to be and IMO they will never be as long as they use these new inferior fields).

*RE: So the assertion that many/most of the Cubans here in this country are fake is not only acectdotal but based on 11 year old information?*

Read my post again (sounds like a broken record by now). Just how did you figure out 11 years? I clearly stated I STOPPED buying after '97, I didn't say how far back my experience with CCs goes, did I? I just smoked a '73 RyJ PC this past weekend.

Anecdotal? I see more fakes than I care to admit, actually a huge proportion of what I see is fake and I rarely see the real deal these days. That's why my amazement seeing so many tasting notes posted and so many PIFs/bombs referenced. I am way too old to believe in miracles, YMMV of course.

OK, what is your CC experience, inquiring minds want to know.


----------



## icehog3

Finally, someone who knows everything has arrived to teach all you clowns a thing or two!


----------



## joed

icehog3 said:


> Finally, someone who knows everything has arrived to teach all you clowns a thing or two!


people who think that they know everything - really piss off those of us that do! :r


----------



## BigVito

EastBay said:


> j6ppc,
> 
> *RE: That should be interesting if anyone takes you up on that.*
> 
> Like I said, bring it on. I am tired of all the claims by now and after seeing one self appointed legend in his mind after another fail miserably in wine tastings I know how this one will end as well.
> 
> 
> One key thing to remember: only 100% accuracy in this test counts, anything else is actually a failure and proof to the contrary. I hope you understand the logic behind this.
> 
> 
> *RE: Wow that is a pretty broad assertion. If I understand that correctly then a large percentage of Cuban cigars folks here and elsewhere are smoking are in fact not cuban at all.*
> 
> You got that right. FACT.
> 
> For every legit cigar bought, there is a hundred (or more) bought out of those fancy glass tops (whether one knows they came from the glass top or not).
> 
> Dominica cannot legally sell ANY Cuban made product, yet there are claims, posted in just the past day or two on this here board, that one can buy a legit stick at Duty Free there. Simply not true (in that they are legit). But check how many posters believe they bought the real deal, I was amazed.
> 
> Just one example, I can cite more.
> 
> *RE: I don't have my reference materials at hand but seem to recall that a number of marcas/vitolas underwent significant blend changes in the '99 to '01 time frame.*
> 
> Read my post again. That's when they started using the newly planted fields to increase production. It also coincided with them using poorly trained rollers or not trained at all, they were short handed at the factories with all that newly planted tobacco kicking in and hired whoever was willing to work. Things may have improved since then (tobacco getting better and work force getting more experienced, but they are still not at the level they used to be and IMO they will never be as long as they use these new inferior fields).
> 
> *RE: So the assertion that many/most of the Cubans here in this country are fake is not only acectdotal but based on 11 year old information?*
> 
> Read my post again (sounds like a broken record by now). Just how did you figure out 11 years? I clearly stated I STOPPED buying after '97, I didn't say how far back my experience with CCs goes, did I? I just smoked a '73 RyJ PC this past weekend.
> 
> Anecdotal? I see more fakes than I care to admit, actually a huge proportion of what I see is fake and I rarely see the real deal these days. That's why my amazement seeing so many tasting notes posted and so many PIFs/bombs referenced. I am way too old to believe in miracles, YMMV of course.
> 
> OK, what is your CC experience, inquiring minds want to know.


:r just admitted that you are a self appointed legend that will fail, swift move Ex-Lax :r

----------------
Now playing: Eazy - E - Eazy-Duz-It
via FoxyTunes


----------



## EastBay

HUH!?


----------



## poker

> OK, what is your CC experience, inquiring minds want to know.


Since the mid 90's here.


----------



## j6ppc

EastBay said:


> j
> 
> OK, what is your CC experience, inquiring minds want to know.


Since the early eighties whilst living abroad (I wish I'd stocked up on Davidoffs back then but hey who knew...).


----------



## NCRadioMan

EastBay said:


> So, call me unconvinced.


For some reason, "bitter" suites you much better. :tu


----------



## poker

I just read this whole thread for the first time. EastBay, you mentioned that you were on ASC back in the day. What username if I might ask?


----------



## EastBay

NCRadioMan said:


> For some reason, "bitter" suites you much better. :tu


Bitter about what exactly?


----------



## landhoney

EastBay said:


> With one exception: customs guys got smarter these days and are on to the shipments. Just how many "books" or "ashtrays" can one receive from overseas? So, if anything, less rather than more, legit cigars make it here.


Hate to 'pile on', but are you saying in the above quote that they let the fakes through? In other words they see its from X vendor (a known faker) or open and can tell its fake and then send it on its way? Maybe I'm not understanding the quote. But if this is indeed what you are saying, could you explain your rationale or evidence of this?


----------



## chenvt

landhoney said:


> Hate to 'pile on', but are you saying in the above quote that they let the fakes through? In other words they see its from X vendor (a known faker) or open and can tell its fake and then send it on its way? Maybe I'm not understanding the quote. But if this is indeed what you are saying, could you explain your rationale or evidence of this?


LOL I saw that too. Customs guys must be able to tell fakes from real CCs and let the fakes through as a cruel joke.


----------



## j6ppc

chenvt said:


> LOL I saw that too. Customs guys must be able to tell fakes from real CCs and let the fakes through as a cruel joke.


Actually the onus is on the recipient - they don't have to prove that the cigars are Cuban. *You *have to prove to them that the cigars are *not* Cuban.

That being said I'm fairly certain that anything opened by customs that is even vaguely Cuban looking will get snagged.

*Someone had issues bringing glass topped Cohibas back from TJ. Obviously fake but confiscated nonetheless.

*I don't recall who, a SHIT herfer maybe.


----------



## Da Klugs

EastBay said:


> So, call me unconvinced.


OK... you're unconvinced! Where's my $ 5? 

Smoke what you like but remember that it's the folks you meet along the way that makes our hobby more enjoyable.

Smugglers as a group are pretty paranoid so it's always a hoot when someone drops by in dress-up to yell fire.

Just got a box of Don Candido Selection Supremo Numero 53 in today and now I'm very concerned about them. Are these things supposed to have glass tops?


----------



## poker

Da Klugs said:


> OK... you're unconvinced! Where's my $ 5?
> 
> Smoke what you like but remember that it's the folks you meet along the way that makes our hobby more enjoyable.
> 
> Smugglers as a group are pretty paranoid so it's always a hoot when someone drops by in dress-up to yell fire.
> 
> Just got a box of Don Candido Selection Supremo Numero 53 in today and now I'm very concerned about them. Are these things supposed to have glass tops?


Nope, they have blue tinted plastic tops


----------



## Da Klugs

poker said:


> Nope, they have blue tinted plastic tops


Whew! Wait I just opened them up... no tubes at all.... FAKES!!!


----------



## germantown rob

Da Klugs said:


> Whew! Wait I just opened them up... no tubes at all.... FAKES!!!


I got 4 boxes I'd sell you for less than I paid for them. Hell 
, if they are all fake then what do you have to loose?:r


----------



## poker

Da Klugs said:


> Whew! Wait I just opened them up... no tubes at all.... FAKES!!!


Naw, thet may just be in their 73rd sick period. Only the Numero 33's came in tubes.


----------



## EastBay

What we have here is a failure to communicate! Again.

Where and when did I say Customs are "selective"? They are simply more RESTRICTIVE and don't give a hoot about what they confiscate (and most likely feeding these fakes to friends of theirs as the real deal, a neve ending cycle) . Read and understand before you pound the keyboard.

Anyone care to actually answer any of my points? If you feel I made any that do not make sense, please, post your (educated) opinion, I am happy to learn something new. Or did I hit a raw nerve and many of you are now quickly and nervously scanning your recent CC purchases/trades? Bull's eye hit is more like it, IMO.

Anyway, seems instead of a conversation some of you are happy to take pot shots without offering any real arguments (save for "I trust _______") and not even comprehending what is being said. No issues, moving along...


----------



## chenvt

j6ppc said:


> Actually the onus is on the recipient - they don't have to prove that the cigars are Cuban. *You *have to prove to them that the cigars are *not* Cuban.
> 
> That being said I'm fairly certain that anything opened by customs that is even vaguely Cuban looking will get snagged.
> 
> *Someone had issues bringing glass topped Cohibas back from TJ. Obviously fake but confiscated nonetheless.
> 
> *I don't recall who, a SHIT herfer maybe.


I'm aware of that, I was referring to the previous poster's comments on someone coming to the conclusion that because customs is snagging more boxes because they're "on" to things, there are plenty more fakes :chk


----------



## germantown rob

EastBay said:


> What we have here is a failure to communicate! Again.
> 
> Where and when did I say Customs are "selective"? They are simply more RESTRICTIVE and don't give a hoot about what they confiscate (and most likely feeding these fakes to friends of theirs as the real deal, a neve ending cycle) . Read and understand before you pound the keyboard.
> 
> Anyone care to actually answer any of my points? If you feel I made any that do not make sense, please, post your (educated) opinion, I am happy to learn something new. Or did I hit a raw nerve and many of you are now quickly and nervously scanning your recent CC purchases/trades? Bull's eye hit is more like it, IMO.
> 
> Anyway, seems instead of a conversation some of you are happy to take pot shots without offering any real arguments (save for "I trust _______") and not even comprehending what is being said. No issues, moving along...


*I don't think we have a failure to communicate at all. You are coming through loud and clear!*


----------



## poker

EastBay said:


> Anyone care to actually answer any of my points?


Did you care to actually answer the question I posed?


----------



## joed

EastBay said:


> OK, what is your CC experience, inquiring minds want to know.


I've read pretty much this whole thread now - and I won't be back.

I bought my first cuban cigar in the mid 80s.

One Question - are the cigars that come from a La Casa del Habano suspect of being fakes too. Because if not - then there are a lot of genuine cuban cigars in the US.


----------



## icehog3

EastBay said:


> Or did I hit a raw nerve and many of you are now quickly and nervously scanning your recent CC purchases/trades? Bull's eye hit is more like it, IMO.


Yup...that it, alright.


----------



## adsantos13

So let me get this straight, because it seems this thread is stuck in a holding pattern...

1) It is beyond the bounds of reason that the growth of internet commerce combined with the lack of manpower to screen 99% of incoming parcels has contributed to the creation of a market for the importation of Cuban cigars into the US (and OTOH allowed existing and reputable firms to open their businesses to include American buyers).

2) That it is improbable that some firms can offer rock bottom prices when they operate out of duty free zones and who are also getting discounts from their distributor for selling high volumes. 

3)There is a global conspiracy afoot to insert fake stock into the official production and distribution streams of Habanos SA. This conspiracy emanates from somewhere near the top and is followed either through complicity or ignorance by the various vendors who are considered reputable (B&M's, Internet Firms, B&M's who also sell via the internet). 

4)Cuban cigars used to be good but now you prefer Nicaraguans and Hondurans. OK, how are we to debate your personal taste? Accordingly, since you made a personal decision to disavow Cuban cigars, does this mean that other people with different taste should stop smoking what they like, whether it is a real Cohiba or a fake? Who cares? 

5)That because its a fact that Americans smoke a lot of the fake Cuban cigars floating around the market, that one can then assume everyone in the U.S. is currently buying and smoking fake Cuban cigars. 

This is what I comprehended so far. However, Im not the sharpest tool in the shed so feel free to dismiss my post as missing the point. :tu


----------



## j6ppc

Honestly I'm clearly a dumbass.
I'll continue to blissfully enjoy my (certainly fake) Cubans anyway.


----------



## icehog3

j6ppc said:


> Honestly I'm clearly a dumbass.
> I'll continue to blissfully enjoy my (certainly fake) Cubans anyway.


You (certainly) will.


----------



## poker

Please excuse this short intermission. Someone is busy checking out the Want to Sell/Trade room. We will resume with this evenings entertainment in a moment.


----------



## j6ppc

icehog3 said:


> You (certainly) will.


See ya @ the Shore Tom! SocalX pinky promise!
--edit sorry that was way off topic. I'm going to have a nice (fake of course) Cuban cigar and crash.


----------



## Da Klugs

EastBay said:


> What we have here is a failure to communicate! Again.
> 
> Where and when did I say Customs are "selective"? They are simply more RESTRICTIVE and don't give a hoot about what they confiscate (and most likely feeding these fakes to friends of theirs as the real deal, a neve ending cycle) . Read and understand before you pound the keyboard.
> 
> Anyone care to actually answer any of my points? If you feel I made any that do not make sense, please, post your (educated) opinion, I am happy to learn something new. Or did I hit a raw nerve and many of you are now quickly and nervously scanning your recent CC purchases/trades? Bull's eye hit is more like it, IMO.
> 
> Anyway, seems instead of a conversation some of you are happy to take pot shots without offering any real arguments (save for "I trust _______") and not even comprehending what is being said. No issues, moving along...


You need to type slower for us. 

Apologies for the lack of timely responses. It might be that many here, sensing your greatness, have taken a bit of time away from the keyboard to build small shrines in you honor. Or maybe not. Some might opine that the reference to bull in your above post might be a bit more accurate had it been targeted lower.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions. When you state them in ways that are challenging or perceived as an insult by some.. well then things degrade into personal discussions about parental lineage and the like.

I think you bring up interesting points regarding pricing. Not accurate ones in general, but interesting. The wholesale prices as compared to on line retailer prices are the real issue to watch. So long as there appears to be a reasonable margin I think the conspiracy theory implying "all your vendors sell fakes" is a bit of a stretch or more specifically... well it's just not true.


----------



## poker

This is a long intermission. :r


----------



## weak_link

poker said:


> This is a long intermission. :r


No kidding, let get back to the action.

I just smoked an awesomely fake Trinidad Reyes.


----------



## lenguamor

I haven't seen a beating like this since Rodney King.


----------



## Jbailey

My 07 Punch RS#12's have been smoking great so far.


----------



## icehog3

Jbailey said:


> My 07 Punch RS#12's have been smoking great so far.


MMMMM.....Dominicans.


----------



## gorob23

icehog3 said:


> MMMMM.....Dominicans.


:tpd: Now leave me alone I need to set=up the patio:bl

Rob :ss


----------



## ComicBookFreak

The simple answer is yes we are spoiled.

It's great we have an expert that knows all the ins and outs of the cuban cigar industry. Sometimes knowing everything can be such a curse.  As for all my cigars being fake, oh well guess that I must enjoy fake cigars seeing as how they are almost surely all fake!!  :r


----------



## ir13

Had a great fake 01 Partagas Churhill today. Sure do wish i could get some real ones :tg


----------



## chenvt

After reading this thread, I'm never smoking my Cohibo since I know that's real


----------



## poker

Just finished a real Marlboro.


----------



## One Lonely Smoker

Scimmia said:


> Why? Because it has already been established over and over, both on this forum and others, that this feat is much tougher than you make it out to be, and that's all I was trying to convey. You seem extremely arrogant to put yourself above those that have done the test, Fredster included.


My apologies to you, Scimmia, it seems like I hit you below the belt or something. What FEAT is it that you feel cannot be accomplished? You think that I cannot tell cuban tobacco from non-cuban tobacco? Is that what you are inferring? Or are you saying that I cannot tell Dominican from Nicaraguan or Honduran? (I can't) I am not sure what it is you are actually saying I can't do. But really, it doesn't matter, since you are not going to send me cigars, are you? Nor is that "all you are trying to convey", since you called me extremely arrogant as the cherry on top of your otherwise valid point.

You were singled out because you rolled your electronic eyes and made some reference to a post that I, under my particular circumstance, would never have read. But maybe in a similar cirrcumstance, I might have begged someone not to beat a dead horse, which on this forum, is certainly a worthy request. Rather than take this further, Maybe lets just forget about it.

As far as Fredster is concerned, you need to understand that just because someone is highly revered here does not mean that everyone particularly feels the way you do. Many Americans believe there is a God and that Jesus was divine, too, but I don't share their views. I do not put myself above Fredster, quite the opposite. Fredster knows more than I do, has better cigars than I do, and has more friends than I do. Over time he has basically taken an opposite side argument to everything I say on this forum, even on some issues that clearly have no right answer, so we have tangled, and now we just give each other a wide berth based on our shared experiences with one another. I have never even met Fredster, and we share common friends who say that he is an exceptional, generous individual, and I am sure that they are correct. We just have no use for one another. But in future, I will leave your name out of things. I guess you are right about whatever it is you are getting at.


----------



## WeekendSmoker

After having been lurking for a while I'm back.
On the subject of aging: Aging is an activity that suffers from a tremendous survivorship bias. (On this site) it is rare (and that is generous) to find any reviews/descriptions by anyone who has carefully aged a dog rocket for 10+yrs and than proceeds to write a poetic review. What happens is that one might find an old dog rocket in the bottom of a cooler/humi and either tosses it or just light it up without giving it much thought.
It's the carefully tended box that one has been eyeing for a long time that finally gets opened and reviewed which, to no surprise, is going to bias the reviewer. That is not to say that some of those aren't great, but they might easily not be as great as one would like them to be.
The other day I had a 15 year old Monte#2 which tasted like nothing. Absolutely nothing. It was like smoking steam. And it had an uneven burn. Half way through I switched to an 06 #2 which blew it away. Tons of flavor. 
Anyway, though again might improve cigars it is not always the panacea that it sometimes is made out to be.
Rgds
WeekendSmoker (wearing a flamesuit)


----------



## poker

Age will not make a dog rocket cigar a good cigar, no matter the amount of time given. An aged 10 yr old Guantanamera Cristales or Cremosa will still be yukky.


----------



## germantown rob

poker said:


> Just finished a real Marlboro.


Was it aged?


----------



## poker

for about 2 weeks I think. No pack code. :ss


----------



## The Professor

poker said:


> Age will not make a dog rocket cigar a good cigar, no matter the amount of time given. An aged 10 yr old Guantanamera Cristales or Cremosa will still be yukky.


come on ... a crystal is a *little* better than a cremosa. hint's of cat piss? not in the Cuban version. :2


----------



## pnoon

The Professor said:


> come on ... a crystal is a *little* better than a cremosa. hint's of cat piss? not in the Cuban version. :2


It's fake cat piss.


----------



## poker

pnoon said:


> It's fake cat piss.


Does fake cat piss crytalize when aged?


----------



## chenvt

poker said:


> for about 2 weeks I think. No pack code. :ss


Sad to say, I had a fake Marlboro before (Hey it was $5 for a carton in Iraq). Needless to say, I went to the PX/BX and picked up a carton for $28 shortly after.

And there's no way you could ever mistake a fake for a real cigarette


----------



## Da Klugs

poker said:


> Does fake cat piss crytalize when aged?


Only if you feed then exclusively dry food. :tu


----------



## chenvt

poker said:


> Does fake cat piss crytalize when aged?


Yes, but it's urea crystals.. the same stuff kidney stones are made out of


----------



## poker

Holy crap. Fake Marlboros? Next thing you know there will be fake Cremosa's!:r (hell, a fake cremosa might _actually_ be better than the real ones LOL)


----------



## germantown rob

poker said:


> for about 2 weeks I think. No pack code. :ss


So are you sure it's real? It could be one of them Canadian purity law fakes! Better send me one because I will know if it's real :tu.

I like Camels fresh off the truck but Marlboro needs some age to be any good. Just my :2.

I should add some cat piss to see the effects on aging.


----------



## One Lonely Smoker

I would like to apologize to Dave K for thread jacking not once but twice. Sorry to play a part in an argument that does not belong here.


----------



## germantown rob

One Lonely Smoker said:


> I would like to apologize to Dave K for thread jacking not once but twice. Sorry to play a part in an argument that does not belong here.


 :tpd: I guess I am guilty as well, :bn


----------



## dayplanner

One Lonely Smoker said:


> I would like to apologize to Dave K for thread jacking not once but twice. Sorry to play a part in an argument that does not belong here.


----------



## poker

germantown rob said:


> :tpd: I guess I am guilty as well, :bn


:tpd: i am as well, but i dont feel bad. is that a bad thing?


----------



## icehog3

I only fake threadjacked, and only since 1997.


----------



## Da Klugs

One Lonely Smoker said:


> I would like to apologize to Dave K for thread jacking not once but twice. Sorry to play a part in an argument that does not belong here.


It's all good. 

Any serious or even semi serious discussion about our passion/hobby of cigars is cool by me.

Conspiracy theory aside, anyone think that the quality of cigars is going down? More plugged cigars lately? Inconsistencies in boxes going up?

I'm not seeing it. In other discussions there have been comments about the loss of "brand flavor". The discussion point being, cigars are better off the boat but seem to be blurring into fewer unique brand flavor profiles, at least fresh. Paul drew the analogy to wines that are good fresh but tend to go south quicker, take longer to come back but are sublime when they do so. Could this be what we are dealing with in our cigars? Or just optimistic analogies based upon our full coolers. 

MRN commented recently that the EL and RE lines are akin to the superperformance high end cars from Mfr's. Where they show off the best of their capabilities. Does that translate into better fresh or better over a long view?

What is better? We all have different tastes. I have a friend that has smoked it all. Now he smokes pretty much fresh cigars. Says he likes the taste. Lately I have been smoking more "off the boat" cigars in the rotation. It's fun but to me at least, not necessarily better than a well aged cigar.. just different.


----------



## chibnkr

Damn it! It looks like it is a FACT that 90% of my cigar collection is fake!!! So now what to do with 8,000 vintage Dominican cigars? (I thought those Don Candidos looked funny...) Time to delete a few (obviously incorrect) tasting notes. 

I thought about a long, point-by-point post/retort...but decided it would be a tremendous waste of time. So I'll just go smoke one of my fake (full-bodied) 1970s Partagas Lusitania 109s and call it a day.


----------



## JCK

germantown rob said:


> I like Camels fresh off the truck but Marlboro needs some age to be any good. Just my :2.


I find that Camel Lights in the Old Style Packaging, not the new Packaging aged best as singles - fallen out of the pack - under the driver's seat in the car for 2 weeks in the Sun. Smoke it after that, whoa what a kick in the nuts.


----------



## chenvt

Da Klugs said:


> It's all good.
> 
> Any serious or even semi serious discussion about our passion/hobby of cigars is cool by me.
> 
> Conspiracy theory aside, anyone think that the quality of cigars is going down? More plugged cigars lately? Inconsistencies in boxes going up?
> 
> I'm not seeing it. In other discussions there have been comments about the loss of "brand flavor". The discussion point being, cigars are better off the boat but seem to be blurring into fewer unique brand flavor profiles, at least fresh. Paul drew the analogy to wines that are good fresh but tend to go south quicker, take longer to come back but are sublime when they do so. Could this be what we are dealing with in our cigars? Or just optimistic analogies based upon our full coolers.
> 
> MRN commented recently that the EL and RE lines are akin to the superperformance high end cars from Mfr's. Where they show off the best of their capabilities. Does that translate into better fresh or better over a long view?
> 
> What is better? We all have different tastes. I have a friend that has smoked it all. Now he smokes pretty much fresh cigars. Says he likes the taste. Lately I have been smoking more "off the boat" cigars in the rotation. It's fun but to me at least, not necessarily better than a well aged cigar.. just different.


I havent' seen an increase in plugging, but I still haven't ventured into anything with an 08 box code.. The 07s ROTT have been so good to me, I need to soak in as much as I can 

Regarding the EL/REs and their ROTT versus long term, half the fun will be experiencing them not knowing  I just started down the EL/RE slope and am excited about not just trying some now, but the years ahead


----------



## hk3

khubli said:


> I find that Camel Lights in the Old Style Packaging, not the new Packaging aged best as singles - fallen out of the pack - under the driver's seat in the car for 2 weeks in the Sun. Smoke it after that, whoa what a kick in the nuts.


Mmmmm sun-rippened cigarettes! They taste better when they have been laying next to a french fry and the cigarette marries the flavor. Nice hints of peanut oil :tu


----------



## j6ppc

Da Klugs said:


> It's all good.
> 
> Conspiracy theory aside, anyone think that the quality of cigars is going down? More plugged cigars lately? Inconsistencies in boxes going up?
> *I don't think so. Certainly the last several years worth seem to be better ROTT than in the past. I don't think I've encountered *any* plugged cigars from recent production.*
> I'm not seeing it. In other discussions there have been comments about the loss of "brand flavor". The discussion point being, cigars are better off the boat but seem to be blurring into fewer unique brand flavor profiles, at least fresh. Paul drew the analogy to wines that are good fresh but tend to go south quicker, take longer to come back but are sublime when they do so. Could this be what we are dealing with in our cigars? Or just optimistic analogies based upon our full coolers.
> *I've seen the arguement that cubans are becoming indistinct across marcas but IMHO there are still strong marca specific flavor profiles. As for the Wine analagy - I don't know if that holds true for cigars. Wines that are meant to age well are typically somewhat unbalanced when young although great wines (in the classic sense not the humongous Cabs/Zins that are currrently in vogue) can be quite balanced and approachable as youngsters. Surely time will tell whether the cigars age well or not. We'll just have to wait until 2017 or so .*
> 
> MRN commented recently that the EL and RE lines are akin to the superperformance high end cars from Mfr's. Where they show off the best of their capabilities. Does that translate into better fresh or better over a long view?
> *No idea I've had an insufficient number of these to even begin to form an opinion that is based on personal experience.*
> What is better? We all have different tastes. I have a friend that has smoked it all. Now he smokes pretty much fresh cigars. Says he likes the taste. Lately I have been smoking more "off the boat" cigars in the rotation. It's fun but to me at least, not necessarily better than a well aged cigar.. just different.
> *True that.*





chibnkr said:


> Damn it! It looks like it is a FACT that 90% of my cigar collection is fake!!! So now what to do with 8,000 vintage Dominican cigars? (I thought those Don Candidos looked funny...) Time to delete a few (obviously incorrect) tasting notes.
> 
> I thought about a long, point-by-point post/retort...but decided it would be a tremendous waste of time. So I'll just go smoke one of my fake (full-bodied) 1970s Partagas Lusitania 109s and call it a day.
> *Well said Michael. *


*I don't pretend to be expert on either cigars or wines. I do enjoy both and think that learning new things and discovering new likes (and dislikes) as time goes by and palates evolve is one of the more interesting aspects of this hobby.*

*I enjoy what I smoke and cherish the friendships I've been fortunate enough to make via this board. Honestly I'd get more enjoyment out of a dubious peso cigar in the company of friends than I'd derive from a (insert wildly expensive perfectly aged unobtainable cigar here) smoked alone.*


----------



## chibnkr

j6ppc said:


> *I don't pretend to be expert on either cigars or wines. I do enjoy both and think that learning new things and discovering new likes (and dislikes) as time goes by and palates evolve is one of the more interesting aspects of this hobby.*
> 
> *I enjoy what I smoke and cherish the friendships I've been fortunate enough to make via this board. Honestly I'd get more enjoyment out of a dubious peso cigar in the company of friends than I'd derive from a (insert wildly expensive perfectly aged unobtainable cigar here) smoked alone.*


Indeed. I am by no means an expert either. But it is not about being an expert, it is about enjoying this hobby of ours. At the end of the day, you should just smoke what you like and not care what anyone else thinks about the cigars you enjoy. Are we spoiled? Probably. When I first started smoking Habanos one had to actually call (or fax) the tobacconist on the phone to place an order. In terms of access, things are indeed much better now. Regarding the actual blends...only time will tell. I wholeheartedly believe that, at least _right now_, some of the older blends are superior (e.g., pre-1995 Cohibas, which are noticeably different from their more recent brethren). I'm not just talking about the effect of age on the tobacco, but the actual blend of tobacco. But in another 15 or 20 years...who knows.


----------



## Costa

> But in another 15 or 20 years...who knows.


And God willing, we will all be here to discuss! :ss:tu


----------



## One Lonely Smoker

chenvt said:


> Regarding the EL/REs and their ROTT versus long term, half the fun will be experiencing them not knowing  I just started down the EL/RE slope and am excited about not just trying some now, but the years ahead


The curse of the ELs, as has been said elsewhere, is that you never know til it's too late. I have begun to stiffen my upper lip against reports of fantastic 5 year old ELs and such. Too late, and there are alot of cigars that sound great that I will never taste. Still, it's hard. I guess there have been not too many that appeal to me at the start. No RyJ makes me care, I won't pay 25 EL prices for a dozen Trinidad EL, Cohibas, nuff said, Partagas, yeah, I'd try it maybe, but this year is Partagas-less, Isn't it. Hoyo, I would have taken the Robustos Especiales, but I was in a non-buying phase that year and stuck to it, miraculously. I am waiting til next year to think about it. Truth is, I am in re-discovery phase of my old favorite the Siglo VI. Is there a better regular production cigar? I haven't had it.


----------



## Da Klugs

j6ppc said:


> *I don't pretend to be expert on either cigars or wines. I do enjoy both and think that learning new things and discovering new likes (and dislikes) as time goes by and palates evolve is one of the more interesting aspects of this hobby.*
> 
> *I enjoy what I smoke and cherish the friendships I've been fortunate enough to make via this board. Honestly I'd get more enjoyment out of a dubious peso cigar in the company of friends than I'd derive from a (insert wildly expensive perfectly aged unobtainable cigar here) smoked alone.*


Yup. The point of the "shared" passion is that ... well we share many things as we explore, learn and form opinions based upon our experience. Experience is what leads to limited versions of expertise on specific subjects regarding cigars. No one (Well maybe Nicaraguan boy) can know everything about every year/age of every cigar. We all contribute to the collective knowledge here, to the extent that collective knowledge has meaning.



chibnkr said:


> Indeed. I am by no means an expert either. But it is not about being an expert, it is about enjoying this hobby of ours. At the end of the day, you should just smoke what you like and not care what anyone else thinks about the cigars you enjoy. Are we spoiled? Probably. When I first started smoking Habanos one had to actually call (or fax) the tobacconist on the phone to place an order. In terms of access, things are indeed much better now. Regarding the actual blends...only time will tell. I wholeheartedly believe that, at least _right now_, some of the older blends are superior (e.g., pre-1995 Cohibas, which are noticeably different from their more recent brethren). I'm not just talking about the effect of age on the tobacco, but the actual blend of tobacco. But in another 15 or 20 years...who knows.


Per the above you have expertise acquired by your activities involving cigars over the past 15 years. "Others" would perceive you an expert in these areas. In relative terms we are all experts at some aspects of this hobby compared to others and are relative neophytes as compared to others on the same or different topic. The size of the comparative group dictates the level of expertise or experience.

Your friends use you as a relative value barometer. If Michael is willing to shell out $$$ to buy more.. they gotta be good.


----------



## vicvitola

chibnkr said:


> Are we spoiled? Probably. When I first started smoking Habanos one had to actually call (or fax) the tobacconist on the phone to place an order. In terms of access, things are indeed much better now.


Yeah I remember those days. It's so much easier now...too easy IMO. The explosion of online commerce especially in regards to Habanos has created a unique set of problems/issues.

I remember for a while I continued to use the guys that only accepted faxed or phoned in orders because I knew they weren't dealing with all the internet traffic......still do occasionally not many left though.


----------



## kas

You guys are. I am not.


----------



## Jbailey

My fakes have been tasting a lot better lately.


----------



## Ashcan Bill

Da Klugs said:


> Conspiracy theory aside, anyone think that the quality of cigars is going down? More plugged cigars lately? Inconsistencies in boxes going up?


The good news is I haven't noticed any increase in plugged 'gars.

The bad news is I haven't noticed any decrease in plugged 'gars.

Come se come sa.


----------



## Coffee Grounds

What I have been seeing in the last 3-4 years is that we the cigar smoker have made a huge impact on production and quality.
Why is that? because of the forums like this. I would bet money cigar producers have people monitoring what the cigar community is posting on the web about there cigars. 
We on the web now have a lot of power when it comes to reviewing cigars.
Look at the Hoyo de Monterrey 07 EL. They have gotten terrible reviews and now they are slashing the prices on them because no one is buying them.


I think we are spoiled because we have so much access to information on cigars now that the manufactors have to produce an excellent product for us to buy. Even in Cuba some experts estimate that 35% of their production is making it to the US. 35% is a big number and is even a bigger number in currency. Until the web came along there was no way 35% of Cuban cigar production could have made it to the US.

I picked up a couple of boxes of 07 that are awesome. I recently picked up some Golds that are Feb 08 that are really good.

We are spoiled and its only going to get better


----------



## Jbailey

Rule #1 about Fight Club. You do not talk about fight Club.
:r


----------



## poker

Ashes:tu


----------



## yourchoice

Jbailey said:


> Rule #1 about Fight Club. You do not talk about fight Club.
> :r


:r:r Done! :tu


----------



## burninator

I think I might be spoiled. I was out in the sun for a long time earlier, and now I smell bad. :hn


----------



## One Lonely Smoker

You know what, I think the core question has only one answer. Hand in hand with the above poster's comments, that there is no way you could estimate that 35 percent of Havana output could be reaching Americans without the benefit of the internet is a syllogism. Isn't that the right word? If A and B are true, then C must be true? I can't imagine the intrigue and cloak and dagger involved in sweating a box of cigars through customs as recently as the early 90's. The only time I ever physically carried a box through a border crossing (story made up for effect, officer) I was sweating like a whore in church, and once I got across the bridge, I had to pull over and look at them and steady my shaking corpse. All that for 25 PLPC. Now we point, click and pay. Sure, we still sweat a little bit, but the point is we don't sweat in the presence of a uniformed officer. Neither do we lose alot of sleep over a lost box. We would never order from a guy who has not pre-pledged to make it good. Are we spoiled. You are GD right, we are. In the time I have been exposed to cigars on the net, the quality has only gone in one direction, so that makes me spoiled, as well. The fun would have gone right out of it had things gone up and down and up and down. You can still vintage yourself into trouble, but only you guys that light your smokes with fivers know what I mean, right?  Just plain old me can't go that route, and with my development over the years towards liking fresh, strong cigars, I don't even lose slppe over the great old sticks you guys are smoking. BTW, Dave, thatnks for the HU Naturals tubo you sent me last year. Had I known then how realatively rare what I was smoking was, I think I would have used a more MRN smoking technique.:ss


----------



## Coffee Grounds

"A syllogism (Greek: συλλογισμός — "conclusion," "inference"), (usually the categorical syllogism) is a kind of logical argument in which one proposition (the conclusion) is inferred from two others (the premises) of a certain form"

Sorry I had to look up what syllogism means. Then it took me back to my intro to basic logic class which I got a C because I made the agrument why I should not get a D in the form of an equation. 

The 35% came from a CA article. It think it might even be higher than that.


----------



## Moro

demiurgic said:


> We are spoiled, sure.
> But these guys are just plain smothered in SPOLIED
> 
> http://www.cigaraficionado.com/Cigar/CA_Archives/CA_Show_Article/0,2322,1673,00.html
> 
> The part that HIT me. >>
> 
> George Wong, perhaps the greatest cigar collector on earth, was handing out 30th Anniversary Cohibas to late-night revelers in his private club in Hong Kong like candy canes to children
> The 30th Anniversary was launched in 1996 at a cigar festival in Havana. Only 45 humidors of the Cohiba with 50 cigars each were produced that year, and Wong owns 10 of them. A number of them are already empty.
> "Nobody is leaving this room until we finish the entire box," Wong, 52, said to the group of about 15 people who were with him on this mid-April evening. About half of those in the room were taking turns at karaoke in between puffs of the glorious smoke and glasses of Lafleur 1983 from a magnum.
> A full 30th Anniversary Cohiba Humidor goes for about $30,000, if you can find one in a shop or at auction. Single sticks are about $800 at retail, but I know only one shop in the world that sells them and it's in Hong Kong: Cigarro.


:tpd: We are SPOILED; way to good to be able to smoke whatever, whenever, without worries; but this bloke is treated like a bloody God.


----------



## Da Klugs

Good comments all. Got me thinking more about the changes in the past 15 years for us from a buyers perspective. Thomas Friedman wrote "The world is flat" a decent book partially about how the internet is making us all interconnected, increasing the pace of change and creating a "flattening" of the advantages geography, historical precedent and most importantly in this discussion, "expert knowledge" has and is having on the world.

Access was the real issue for those "doing this" before the advent of online things. International phone calls, faxes, trips to meet and gain trust. These were barriers to entry that kept the "hows" in the hands of the few. Anytime there is a limited access to anything the real or perceived limited availability makes the price higher and the opportunity for "cottage industry" redistribution was high.

Things are much flatter today in regards to almost all genres of our hobby, except perhaps the most extreme collectibles which is more a function of means than anything else. For most things, a multitude of supply channels dramatically increases volume and forces a flattening of pricing commensurate with a wide dissemination of the knowledge of "how". This is my take on end user pricing vs that put forth earlier in this thread regarding authenticity. Things at retail have continued to get more expensive. However, the flattening of the world that these things are sold in has taken an even larger portion of the end user cost out of the middlemen. There may be fewer of these middlemen or steps in the middle today and those that flourish have made up for this with volume and efficiency.

It's a great thing for almost everyone except perhaps those that had financial or emotional benefit from the prior version of expert knowledge regarding access.


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## jamesb3

Being a cigar smoker for only two years it is hard for me to believe that there ever could have been a better time to be a cigar smoker. With all the quality cigars on the market, both NC's and CC's, and all the new cigars being released all the time makes it hard to keep up as a smoker. I work at my local B&M and it is still hard for me to keep up with all the great cigars there are. And now after returning from IPCPR with a trunk full of great new releases I'll be weeks keeping up. And I have no problem being a guinea pig for new cigars. It's a tough job but someone has to do it. So it might as well be me.:ss


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