# beetle question



## asmartbull (Aug 16, 2009)

I have been doing a lot of reading on this subject
but still have a question.

How long can beetle lava (sp) remain dormant?

Can sticks that are 15 yrs old, still hatch eggs ?

I can't imagine they live for ever ????


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## BKDW (Nov 7, 2009)

That is an extremely good question.

I was reading a pest control book off google.

It had several types of beetles and info about their life cycles.

The eggs have a dormant period, the adults appear to also. So the eggs and the adult beetles can become dormant. I do not know if its true "beetle-wide" but it was listed for many of the beetle types featured. 
Temperature and moisture appear to be factors in adult dormancy. The Paterson's curse field beetle is dormant in the ground during the summer and becomes active during the winter (underground). 

For the Ragwort field beetle, egg hatching is temperature dependent and takes 17 days at 20 degrees Celsius -- that's 68 degrees Fahrenheit . It does not mention how long they can stay unhatched.

Sorry.


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## asmartbull (Aug 16, 2009)

I keep reading the same thing...but
have note read anything that address how long the lava
is viable


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## Tritones (Jun 23, 2010)

I'm doing some poking around, but here's some general thoughts:

Eggs (and larvae) won't go dormant without a reason. In ideal environments, tobacco beetle eggs hatch in a week or so. The less ideal the environment, the longer it will take. Can they stay dormant for 15 years? I don't think it matters - there is no reason why they _would_ stay dormant that long in tobacco that's being stored properly. A cigar with 15-year-old unhatched beetle eggs will be unsmokeable, because it would have to have been stored in terrible conditions.


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## Tritones (Jun 23, 2010)

William H. Robinson's _Handbook of Urban Insects and Arachnids_ says that the larvae can remain dormant for several months at low temperatures. Presumeably they would die or become active outside that time frame.

Still looking for more info ...


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## Johnny Rock (Jun 25, 2010)

Tritones said:


> Can they stay dormant for 15 years? I don't think it matters - there is no reason why they _would_ stay dormant that long in tobacco that's being stored properly. *A cigar with 15-year-old unhatched beetle eggs will be unsmokable,* because it would have to have been stored in terrible conditions.


Could you shed some more light on this subject? This sounds interesting and possibly logical, but I am beginning to feel like Vinny Barbarino... so confused???


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## Batista30 (Sep 13, 2010)

Johnny Rock said:


> Could you shed some more light on this subject? This sounds interesting and possibly logical, but I am beginning to feel like Vinny Barbarino... so confused???


Is there room on that boat, cause I'm a little confused by Mike's statement as well. I thought ideal(and only) conditions for the eggs to hatch required temps and rh above 72. So, less than ideal for the egg incapable of hatching would mean the temp/rh stays below those points. However, the cigar would still be smokeable and ideal conditions for us to enjoy it as well. :help:


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## Tritones (Jun 23, 2010)

Here's the general idea - the only thing that (other than chemical contaminations or radiation exposure, perhaps) inhibits egg hatching and larval development is temperature and RH. When temperature and/or RH gets farther and farther from the ideal, development slows. To get to the point where it would be so slow that it would take 15 years, the conditions would have to be very hot, very cold, very wet, or very dry. Any and all of which would ruin tobacco.


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## Tritones (Jun 23, 2010)

Batista30 said:


> Is there room on that boat, cause I'm a little confused by Mike's statement as well. I thought ideal(and only) conditions for the eggs to hatch required temps and rh above 72. So, less than ideal for the egg incapable of hatching would mean the temp/rh stays below those points. However, the cigar would still be smokeable and ideal conditions for us to enjoy it as well. :help:


No - eggs will hatch at much lower (and higher) temps and RH, but it takes a lot longer. Larval activity does not cease - and hibernation does not begin begin - until 60 degrees or so. Haven't found stats that precise on egg hatching.


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## BKDW (Nov 7, 2009)

Tritones said:


> I'm doing some poking around, but here's some general thoughts:
> 
> Eggs (and larvae) won't go dormant without a reason. In ideal environments, tobacco beetle eggs hatch in a week or so. The less ideal the environment, the longer it will take. Can they stay dormant for 15 years? I don't think it matters - there is no reason why they _would_ stay dormant that long in tobacco that's being stored properly. * A cigar with 15-year-old unhatched beetle eggs will be unsmokeable, because it would have to have been stored in terrible conditions*.


I don't know.
This assumes that "terrible" conditions entail that the eggs with not hatch. 
This assumes "terrible" conditions entail that the cigar cannot be smoked.

Much of what I read talked about temperature being an important factor in the hatching. For one species, 68 degrees is adequate. It does not say any higher is bad for it. It says nothing about ambient humidity as well. It is also entirely possible that the cigar was stored correctly (for the cigar) but not for the beetle to hatch. In other words, appropriate cigar storage conditions might not be appropriate beetle hatching conditions. 
It is also entirely possible that the eggs just would not have hatched, regardless of environment (a dud so to speak).

Just sayin'.


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## Arnie (Jan 5, 2009)

I can't find anything on the net, but I just don't think insect eggs can be viable for years and years like a plant seed or spore. Especially an insect from the tropics. I think after 15 years you'd be good to go.


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## Tritones (Jun 23, 2010)

BKDW said:


> Much of what I read talked about temperature being an important factor in the hatching. For one species, 68 degrees is adequate. It does not say any higher is bad for it. It says nothing about ambient humidity as well. It is also entirely possible that the cigar was stored correctly (for the cigar) but not for the beetle to hatch. In other words, appropriate cigar storage conditions might not be appropriate beetle hatching conditions.
> It is also entirely possible that the eggs just would not have hatched, regardless of environment (a dud so to speak).
> 
> Just sayin'.


There is only one species of tobacco beetle (also called cigarette beetle) and egg hatching is slowed by temperatures and RH above and below certain limits. At some point, of course, slow becomes stopped, but I haven't found any exact stats on that. Larval action stops below 60 degrees, so even if the eggs hatch, the larvae will simply go dormant at those temps. No stats I've found talk about how high the heat has to be to stop activity, except to mention that sufficient heat to kill all beetle phases will cause unacceptable damage to grains, which is another thing tobacco beetles can feed on. I presume that much heat would also damage tobacco.

Upshot is this - keeping your cigars at 65% and 65% RH puts them out of the _ideal_ range for beetle activity, but not outside the _surviveable_ range. Maybe a cigar stored for an extended period of time at decent RH and 59 degrees would be OK to smoke - I don't know. If so, then I stand corrected.


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## Tritones (Jun 23, 2010)

Arnie said:


> I can't find anything on the net, but I just don't think insect eggs can be viable for years and years like a plant seed or spore. Especially an insect from the tropics. I think after 15 years you'd be good to go.


Yeah, I would think so.

Some beetle eggs can last up to four years, but that's the far limit I've been able to discover, and it wasn't for tobacco beetles.


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## asmartbull (Aug 16, 2009)

So........
If you keep your sticks at 65/65 for 15 yrs
there is still a chance of hatching if you let them get to
75/75 ????

Doesn't that sh*t ever die................


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## BKDW (Nov 7, 2009)

I guess they are like cockroaches in that sense.

That is still an interesting question that was posed.

I guess we would have to find the absolute limit to how long the an egg can remain viable without hatching. That would answer the question. If it is only 4 years, then the question is answered as no.


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## BKDW (Nov 7, 2009)

but those beetles are dastardly little things.


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## Rock31 (Sep 30, 2010)

Very interesting, learn something new everyday here on Puff.


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## Tritones (Jun 23, 2010)

asmartbull said:


> So........
> If you keep your sticks at 65/65 for 15 yrs
> there is still a chance of hatching if you let them get to
> 75/75 ????
> ...


I doubt they would last more than a few years in dormancy, maybe no more than 1 or 2, so I would expect that if your sticks are OK after a couple of years, you're safe.


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## Reino (Sep 13, 2010)

I read something about this a while ago, probably here but would freezing the cigars for a short period of time kill the eggs and not adversely affect the cigars?


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## Tritones (Jun 23, 2010)

BKDW said:


> but those beetles are dastardly little things.


That they are.


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## Tritones (Jun 23, 2010)

Reino said:


> I read something about this a while ago, probably here but would freezing the cigars for a short period of time kill the eggs and not adversely affect the cigars?


At zero degrees Fahrenheit, all stages of beetles die in 24 hours. Figuring it takes a little time to get the center of the cigar down to that temperature, 72 hours is good.

Just ask Tony!


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## Reino (Sep 13, 2010)

Tritones said:


> At zero degrees Fahrenheit, all stages of beetles die in 24 hours. Figuring it takes a little time to get the center of the cigar down to that temperature, 72 hours is good.
> 
> Just ask Tony!


reason I asked the summers here are brutal and humis are always at 70/70.
I switched to KL 2 months ago so hopefully that will help in lowering the RH in the summer.
I guess I could switch to a wineador but I love my humis.


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## Tritones (Jun 23, 2010)

Reino said:


> reason I asked the summers here are brutal and humis are always at 70/70.
> I switched to KL 2 months ago so hopefully that will help in lowering the RH in the summer.
> I guess I could switch to a wineador but I love my humis.


Summers here are brutal, too - my humi and even the coolidor get way too warm in the summer. I freeze everything I get, unless I intend to use it pretty quickly.

Except the 30-year old Hondurans from Loren. I figured if they don't have beetle activity by now, they ain't gettin' any! Even though I'm not really storing them, I just don't smoke often enough to use them up very quickly.


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## Reino (Sep 13, 2010)

Maybe come spring or so I will start freezing also.
I have one stick from Loren I got from a pass. I guess after 30+ years shouldnt have to worry. =)


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## Bshambo (Jun 20, 2013)

bump this thread


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## Bshambo (Jun 20, 2013)

BKDW said:


> I guess they are like cockroaches in that sense.
> 
> That is still an interesting question that was posed.
> 
> I guess we would have to find the absolute limit to how long the an egg can remain viable without hatching. That would answer the question. If it is only 4 years, then the question is answered as no.


I am looking for an answer to this question myself. During the summer my house can get above 75 degrees here and there. I have way too many sticks now to go through the hassle of freezing them all and putting them back.Maybe someone has some insight on how long the eggs are viable?


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## JustTroItIn (Jan 12, 2014)

I know this is just a retail site but according to the beetle FAQ on CI:



cigarsinternational said:


> Tobacco beetles have a life cycle - egg, larva, pupa and adult - that lasts about 10 to 12 weeks total. The female adult can chew its way through paper or tobacco leaf, and finds in cigars a suitably warm environment to lay its eggs, small white ovals that are too small for the human eye to detect. The eggs, up to 100 per birth cycle, hatch within six to 10 days, giving birth to the larvae. The larvae are what actually eat the tobacco to live and grow.


Tobacco Beetles - Cigar 101 - Cigars International

I would think the bigger cause for concern would be newer sticks infecting your older stock.


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## Tritones (Jun 23, 2010)

Accurate info, but it doesn't address how long eggs will remain dormant and viable at temperatures outside their hatching zone. I can't find any info on that. However, eggs will hatch (slowly) at 65*F, and they are pretty unlikely to hatch at 60* or lower. IMO, if you keep your cigars at 65* or higher, eggs will hatch if present. If you've had your cigars around that temperature for a year (arbitrary time frame - just seems long enough), you should be safe believing there are no viable eggs in your cigars. As Jack suggested, the bigger concern is new cigars, and you can freeze those. There is also the very slight possibility that you may have some old papers or some grains/cereals/flour, etc., which contain viable eggs, and one or two frisky adults might slip into your collection while you have the top open. Not likely, but within the realm of possibility.


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