# cigar aging experiment



## shuckins (Jun 24, 2009)

as some of you may know,i have a few cigars.
well,i have been experimenting with the aging process,which involves smoking one periodically.
i thought i would share my thoughts on my experiences so far.

this is not about any particular cigar,but more about the stages/testing/time frames of smoking them while they are aging.
my experiment involves smoking one per month out of the same box of the same cigar that i bought to age.

i smoked one right off the truck ( as soon as they were delivered) and it was a little harsh.tough draw,didn't burn well,and mostly tasted like wet tobacco. 

after 1 month,the draw was better,the burn was iffy,and i could taste the tobacco,which was harsh,but couldn't taste anything else. 

after 2 months,the draw was pretty good,the burn was a little better,and the tobacco was more pronounced,but still a little harsh

after 3 months,the draw was great,the burn was much improved,and i could taste something besides the tobacco,which was a still a little bitter.

after 4 months,same great draw,pretty good burn,a couple of identifiable flavors,and the tobacco was a lot less bitter.

after 5 months,smoking good,with more robust identifiable flavors,and mellower tobacco.

after 6 months,it's a good smoking cigar,with more enhanced flavors,and tobacco that i am starting to enjoy.

i haven't smoked the 7th month cigar yet,but one thing that i have noticed in particular,is that the cigar seems to have been changing/aging from the foot to the head.
as i smoked it from month to month,the older it get's,and the farther into it i smoke,i can tell the progress of it by the taste.
in the first couple of month's,i could tell it wasn't ready right away,but as time went by,and i smoked more of them,i was able to smoke farther into the cigar before it told me "not yet". 

do cigars really age from foot to head? 
anybody else been experimenting with this,or is it just me?


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## Big John (Apr 11, 2011)

Excellent experiment. The answer will be debated forever. I have spoken personnally with reps and even Jonathan Drew and Tim O fromCAO fame. Both say their cigars are best within the first six months of purcchase. That means all things being equal like humidity and temperature stoarage issues they don't get better with age. I happen to disagree, but that is how taste is different from one to another. I have Kuba Kubas that are two years old that smoke well, but Drew was skeptical. My Padrons did not do so well. They are so expensive that I smoke them only once a week or so and I find they have degraded. Tobacco is a natural product so you have to find a system of storage that brings out the best in the cigar for your individual taste. Sounds like you have done just that. Bravo.


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## smelvis (Sep 7, 2009)

Yeah but not as precise as you, never noticed the foot to head thing, I am more of a when I think of it grabber but you got me interested in trying this as well, I love opus maybe I will try a box of them and do the same thing, Thanks for the idea Ron! Or maybe a box of yours would be a better choice yeah that's it!


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## kumanchu (Mar 16, 2011)

Big John said:


> Excellent experiment. The answer will be debated forever. I have spoken personnally with reps and even Jonathan Drew and Tim O fromCAO fame. Both say their cigars are best within the first six months of purcchase. That means all things being equal like humidity and temperature stoarage issues they don't get better with age. I happen to disagree, but that is how taste is different from one to another. I have Kuba Kubas that are two years old that smoke well, but Drew was skeptical. My Padrons did not do so well. They are so expensive that I smoke them only once a week or so and I find they have degraded. Tobacco is a natural product so you have to find a system of storage that brings out the best in the cigar for your individual taste. Sounds like you have done just that. Bravo.


for flavored or infused cigars, i can see why they say smoke within 6 months.

for normal cigars, most everyone would disagree with that. particularly the guys at davidoff, whom might be the experts on aging. they say it typically takes 5 years for a cigar to be completely ready.

the reason why cigars get better with age is related to the fermentation of the tobacco. While the majority of the fermentation happens before the tobacco is rolled into cigars; it often continues after the cigars have been shipped for sale.

cigars that are still in heavy fermentation are considered to be in their "sick" period, they tend to lack flavor, and be very harsh. one byproduct is ammonia; which is easy to smell while smoking a cigar if you sniff behind the cherry.

:focus:

after some thought, my personal approach to this is to store cigars at higher rh% (i use 70%~72%) in order to promote fermentation. I'd like to store them at warmer temps as well, but I'm afraid of cigar beetles, so I make due with keeping my stash somewhere in the 65~72 degree range.

before smoking, I drybox my cigars for a few hours as I've found it gives me a better draw, burn, and I seem to get more flavors out of the cigars.

I should also mention I like smooth cigars; and aging seems to help get my cigars smoking the way I like them.

I only started storing cigars recently in order to achieve this. I previously only bought singles at shops or lounges and smoked them within a day or two. Friends would often swap out rested sticks for newer ones (they are good friends) and I just decided I might as well start doing this on my own.


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## 1Linnie (Jan 12, 2011)

with reps and even Jonathan Drew and Tim O fromCAO fame. Both say their cigars are best within the first six months of purcchase.


Would you expect a salesman to say anything diffrent?


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## 1Linnie (Jan 12, 2011)

I have cheap Victor Sinclair Triple Corojo Churchill in the humi smoked one right off the truck and eeeyyyhhh...? though what a cheap cigar... Now that have been in humi for several months I smoked one couple nights ago and noticed the improved burn and thought will let them rest till maybe this fall and will have some awesome smokes for little more than 2$ each.


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## E Dogg (Mar 23, 2011)

Great post as I was thinking about starting this soon. Couple of questions....

1. Were the sticks already aged or recently made and how do you know this? 

2. If they were already aged (or sitting in a warehouse for awhile) do you think "aging" in your own humi is still worth it, or needed? 

Obviously you can tell the difference in aging them yourself, I've noticed a difference myself in letting some sticks sit for about a month or two (I'm impatient and don't have a big stash) but today I dug one out and it was terrible compared to the last 3 or 4. Just wondering if "aging" them is truly having these effects on them or could the inconsistencies have some play in this also???


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## Sarge (Nov 21, 2010)

idk, seems to me that it makes sense. The foot is open so it would begin aging there and move slowly toward the head. nice observation though. :tu


I haven't been experimenting so much w/ stages since I keep smoking through my stash and replacing it. also w/ limited space. sucks being a noob. I need more space and money and to smoke less cigars, Lol. Ok, I guess I'm not a noob anymore either, I'm an amateur I guess. anyway..... I have been testing cellophane off and on to a certain degree. Seems that w/ the cellophane on it definitely slows the acclimation time & keeps them fresher than one w/o.


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## kumanchu (Mar 16, 2011)

oh and about the "aging from foot to head" I have noticed the same thing; and I believe that this is due to the fact that the byproducts of fermentation (like ammonia) can outgas only from the foot of the cigar.

The fermentation we want happening in our cigars is aerobic (meaning needs oxygen, rather than the anaerobic form of fermentation) and because the oxygen supply is from the foot, and the threshold of fermentation will move beginning at the foot and end at the head.

This is my own rationalization and I may be COMPLETELY wrong in my reasoning. This is my way of connecting a few basic facts of aging and cigar construction.


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## BMack (Dec 8, 2010)

Maybe you can try clipping the head on a couple next time to see if that balances out the aging process. My first thought was that of Steven, the cigars are aging from the foot because it's open.


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## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

FINALLY! Some VINDICATION from a BOTL I love and respect!

Ron, why the hell do you think I've been preaching about not smoking ANYTHING without a year on it? Hellya! I've done those tests! Month-by-month, stick-by-stick.

Smoke NOTHING without at least a YEAR on it!

I rest my case and NOW, I have a witness.

Thanks, Shucks'


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## Sarge (Nov 21, 2010)

Herf N Turf said:


> FINALLY! Some VINDICATION from a BOTL I love and respect!
> 
> Ron, why the hell do you think I've been preaching about not smoking ANYTHING without a year on it? Hellya! I've done those tests! Month-by-month, stick-by-stick.
> 
> ...


:faint: Oh boy... I better load up on more dirt cheap sticks to smoke for the next year... being an amateur I'm screwed. I might have like 5 sticks that are 4 months old but everything else just came off the truck the last 2 months again, Lol... sigh... what a hobby... :bawling: time to start hoarding and adding more storage space. I know that box of Tat havanas I got the end of Jan still isn't nearly ready to smoke.

I don't know about a full year but it seems to me many cigars are definitely better w/ some time under their belt. the flavors really come out if they've had proper time to sit. On the other hand some cigars are excellent and much better fresher. Very few but some are sent out ready to smoke. Of course a lot of this can also come down to ones opinion or likes...


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## socalocmatt (Dec 22, 2010)

shuckins said:


> as some of you may know,i have a few cigars.


HAHAHA. Just a few? No $h!t. LMAO. I just spent a good 30 looking at the pics you posted of your stash in the pic section. ound:

That said:
I can see if a cigar were to age then the entire cigar would change all at the same time but not at the same rate. The wrapper and binder are not air tight so there is an exchange of air through the leaf. So, IMO and with no documented testing, I would think that there would be some aging going on with the entire cigar but the area exposed to oxygen (foot) would have more of an exchange of air.

This difference in rate of exchange and amount of exchange though different methods (through direct exposure to air or having to travel through the binder/wrapper) may easily explain why many cigars have "flavor profiles" that can be identified in thirds.

I wonder if somehow capping off the foot would then change these rates/methods and the cigar's aging profile would change.


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## kumanchu (Mar 16, 2011)

Sarge said:


> I don't know about a full year but it seems to me many cigars are definitely better w/ some time under their belt. the flavors really come out if they've had proper time to sit. On the other hand some cigars are excellent and much better fresher. Very few but some are sent out ready to smoke. Of course a lot of this can also come down to ones opinion or likes...


I think this is linked to how long the cigar company let them sit before sending them out, and how long the retailer had them before selling them. for example, an opus that has been sitting at a shop for a year should be the same as if it had been sitting in your own humidor for the same amount of time (given they are from the same batch)

simply because a cigar "travels" doesn't reset the time that the tobacco in the cigar has had to ferment.


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## kumanchu (Mar 16, 2011)

socalocmatt said:


> HAHAHA. Just a few? No $h!t. LMAO. I just spent a good 30 looking at the pics you posted of your stash in the pic section. ound:
> 
> That said:
> I can see if a cigar were to age then the entire cigar would change all at the same time but not at the same rate. The wrapper and binder are not air tight so there is an exchange of air through the leaf. So, IMO and with no documented testing, I would think that there would be some aging going on with the entire cigar but the area exposed to oxygen (foot) would have more of an exchange of air.
> ...


while the wrapper /binder are not air tight, they provide significantly more resistance than the open foot.

I have also thought about the fermentation and flavor profile of cigars, and while I think it's related I don't think that it's the major player there. A well aged cigar will still have a flavor profile. After watching a few videos on cigar construction, it looks like torcedors put certain shorter leaves / tobacco's at certain parts of the cigar as well. I think that this is the major factor of what makes those profiles.

Other factors might include
- buildup of byproducts of combustion
- the heat generated from the cherry will denature some proteins before they are combusted. So, the tobacco that is exposed to the most heat before combustion will taste different.


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## GentlemanJester (Feb 28, 2010)

Shuckins just single handedly changed the definiton of "few". I'm calling Websters.

Neat experiment btw!


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## d_day (Aug 24, 2008)

Interesting observations there. I'm not so sure about the aging from foot to head thing though. I think more likely what's happenieng is as the tobacco ages, there are fewer of the undesirable compounds present. When you smoke, these compounds build up in the cigar and become more concentrated and more noticeable as the cigar burns. 

Just an opinion at this point.


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## djangos (Mar 14, 2011)

Great experiment with much insight and follow up! would be much interested to see how this progresses...... 

One thought on infused cigars.....(yes I tried a Kuba Kuba even though it doesn't seem to blow many skirts up here).....the infused taste seems to be present only the first inch or so, then on the tobacco flavors seem to primarily take over. Also for some reason they ship drier.....my friend received a shipment of both the kuba and padilla miami and the kubas were drier.....wierd!!


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## asmartbull (Aug 16, 2009)

I think you need to distinguish weather it is NC or CC.
I don't believe 1 yr is "aging". Fact is, depending on how they were shipped, it
is "rest". I have seen it take 6 months to bring the RH down to smoke-able levels.

I believe there are only a handful of NC that require age, whereas CC require at least 2 yrs.

I would like to see this done with smoking through a box 1 stick every 4 months.....


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## Tman (Sep 12, 2010)

Awesome experiment! I'm also interested if this was NC or CC experiment as well. I've heard and believe they rest/age differently. Also, were these cigars aged naked or with cello on?


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## dav0 (Feb 7, 2011)

E Dogg said:


> Great post as I was thinking about starting this soon. Couple of questions....
> 
> 1. Were the sticks already aged or recently made and how do you know this?


This is why I try to find which cigar makers are dating thier boxes. Currently, I know only a few NC box date. Some Tatuaje, Illusione are two that I know of.



kumanchu said:


> oh and about the "aging from foot to head" I have noticed the same thing; and I believe that this is due to the fact that the byproducts of fermentation (like ammonia) can outgas only from the foot of the cigar.


So, how bout a cedar holder tray with round holes, say 60 ring gauge, that could sit on the ledge of a desktop humi where the regular tray sits. You would then insert the cigars you want to age, head down. If the theory is correct, shouldn't this expidite the aging process? Of course, I'm assuming that the ammonia escapes in an upward fashion.



Herf N Turf said:


> Smoke NOTHING without at least a YEAR on it!


Man, the only way I could achieve that is if they put me in a drug induced coma! I buy what I like, then I smoke it.


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## jimbo1 (Aug 18, 2010)

and this is why I wonder most NC manufactures don't put a "born on label" on their bands or at least boxes. Ron, great info thank you, but do you have any idea how old the box was when you got it? did you get it online or at a B&M? Did you freeze them? How were they stored? Please keep doing this, I gotta agree with Don about the one year rest period, the longer I hold off the better smoke I get.


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## shuckins (Jun 24, 2009)

the cigars are nc's. there is no date on the box,so i'm using the date that i got them,and put them in my humi to rest,as my starting point. they are still in the original box without cellophane,and have been kept in the lows 60's rh and temp.

this is just an experiment i've been doing, because i noticed some cigars start off good,but end up bad. this got me to wondering why,especially when i would try one later on,and it would smoke longer before the taste changed,so i began to take notes about at what point they started tasting bad.

i think i will cut a couple of 'em,and see if that changes anything. if it does,it will add a little validity to the foot being open theory...


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## Oldmso54 (Jul 31, 2010)

I"ve often wondered if sitting in the warehouse or local B&M humi counts as part of the "resting" or "aging" process. My natural instinct tells me it would. From a totally unscientific (and unintentional) perspective I definitely have noticed that smoking anything ROTT has not proven to be a good experience. In virtually every case, with every cigar - when I smoked it again at a later date it definitely was better. That's one of the reasons I've gone to trying to make box purchases lately, because I'm convinced they'll only get better sitting in my coolidor.

But I'll rely on Ron's experiment because right now I know I don't have the patience and discipline to be scientific - like Dave said I'm kind of grab and go guy.


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## Frankenstein (Jan 12, 2011)

I have actually noticed the food aging before the head, but never gave it any thought... I was always like, "huh, that's different" in the first third to half, then the smoke transitions back to what I remembered from last month or so.


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## Robert G (Apr 11, 2011)

Many people suggest aging your cigars more in the 65% range. 
So I stored my CC's in the 63-65% range and my NC's in the 65-67% range. 
What I found was that the flavor tasted a bit dry for my liking. I also seemed to have some issues with the wrappers cracking. Checked the hygro and it was on. Granted the bottom of your humi will probably be a couple of degrees lower and so unless you rotate often these bottom ones might have been in the low 60% range. 
Problem is that with the CC's the draw is so often on the tight side that if you kept them above 65% I think the draw would be horrible.
So I started keeping the CC's at 65% and NC's at 68% and then dryboxing either the day of or the night before. I've only recently gone this route, but this seems to work really well. Seems to give me the best of both worlds.
Two other notes. The first Padron I ever had was a 1926 No.2 M. I had it sitting in the humi for 11 months before I smoked it and it basically made me aware that a NC can compete with the CC's easily. Knowing that the tobacco is already aged for some time I then smoked my next PAM after 1 month sitting. I know this is a very limited test study, but BIG BIG difference. 
Now on this note it is important to recognize what cigars you prefer. I like them flavorful as opposed to strong. And smooth and bold as opposed to a kick you in your teeth bite. 
Last thing. I am coming up on 1 year's worth of aging in May/June for a bunch of CC's while all the one's I've smoked so far have had 2-6 months on them. 
For all of you concerned I will post a thread and update you on the results in 2 months.


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## Fury556 (Oct 10, 2010)

I think the oldest thing I have in my humi is a GH 2002 from Oct '10, the next oldest is some Diesel Unlimited from Dec '10. Everything else is younger than 2 months. So what would be good to smoke that doesn't need aging that I can smoke for the next 6-12 months while all my new stock ages? :smoke:


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## bpegler (Mar 30, 2006)

Thought provoking thread. I too would probably use the term resting rather than aging, unless we were talking about multiple years rather than months.
Semantics aside, there are some great points in Rons experiment.
First he is using NCs. I think that's important because the sticks in the box will be much more consistent than CCs. Usually all rolled by the same roller using the same leaf. CCs are matched by wrapper color, not roller, and frequently have large variables in the same box.
Also Ron has a mature palette, and can discern small changes in the cigars. 
I'm also interested in the foot versus head argument. I like the possible variable of cutting the head and seeing what transpires.

A lot of fun to read about, thanks for doing this Ron.

Beats the hell out of reading about kitty litter...


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## ouirknotamuzd (Jan 29, 2011)

do cigars really age from foot to head? 
anybody else been experimenting with this,or is it just me?[/QUOTE]

aging from foot to head actually makes perfect sense, considering the nature of a cigar leaf.
cigar leaves are porous by nature, which allows them to sweat and intake moisture..but studies have proven that at the rh of 55% and higher the pores start to close, so when a cigar is wrapped and stored at an rh of 55 or higher, any moisture tends to assert itself into the cigar from the exposed foot. so, any chemical reactions that occur from air/moisture entering the foot of the cigar will naturally begin at the point of origin and work their way upwards...that would explain why the cigar is more evolved when you first light it.

this is an excellent experiment,Ron...I'm sure this will enforce the notion that ya just gotta be patient and let yer new smokes sit for at least 6 months before you receive maximum benefit from them..I salute you,Sir:dude:

the scientist in me has some questions, though:

1 what RH did you store the cigars at?
2 did the cigars come wrapped in cello and did you remove the wrappers?

sorry,Bro.just me being nosy


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## asmartbull (Aug 16, 2009)

ouirknotamuzd said:


> do cigars really age from foot to head?
> anybody else been experimenting with this,or is it just me?


aging from foot to head actually makes perfect sense, considering the nature of a cigar leaf.
cigar leaves are porous by nature, which allows them to sweat and intake moisture..but studies have proven that at the rh of 55% and higher the pores start to close, so when a cigar is wrapped and stored at an rh of 55 or higher, any moisture tends to assert itself into the cigar from the exposed foot. so, any chemical reactions that occur from air/moisture entering the foot of the cigar will naturally begin at the point of origin and work their way upwards...that would explain why the cigar is more evolved when you first light it.

this is an excellent experiment,Ron...I'm sure this will enforce the notion that ya just gotta be patient and let yer new smokes sit for at least 6 months before you receive maximum benefit from them..I salute you,Sir:dude:

the scientist in me has some questions, though:

1 what RH did you store the cigars at?
2 did the cigars come wrapped in cello and did you remove the wrappers?

sorry,Bro.just me being nosy[/QUOTE]

Great points....
So, I wonder if cutting the Cap would accelerate the aging process....Just thinking out loud...


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## ouirknotamuzd (Jan 29, 2011)

kumanchu said:


> oh and about the "aging from foot to head" I have noticed the same thing; and I believe that this is due to the fact that the byproducts of fermentation (like ammonia) can outgas only from the foot of the cigar.
> 
> The fermentation we want happening in our cigars is aerobic (meaning needs oxygen, rather than the anaerobic form of fermentation) and because the oxygen supply is from the foot, and the threshold of fermentation will move beginning at the foot and end at the head.
> 
> This is my own rationalization and I may be COMPLETELY wrong in my reasoning. This is my way of connecting a few basic facts of aging and cigar construction.


you're not wrong in your reasoning,Bro....pipe tobacco is the only tobacco that can undergo anaerobic fermentation, but only in tins that are unopened...once the tin is opened, the anaerobic process halts completely and cannot be reproduced.that why so many piper bros buy tins and let them cellar for years on end, or buy tins in B&M's that have been sitting on the shelves for years.

all chemical conversion in cigars is a purely aerobic process...removing the cello prior to storage will accelerate the resting phase and help it get it through it's sick phase faster, which is why a cigar in cello tastes fresher when it's been removed from the wrapper. there's less air reaching the cigar and the conversion process is slowed down considerably


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## ouirknotamuzd (Jan 29, 2011)

Sarge said:


> :faint: Oh boy... I better load up on more dirt cheap sticks to smoke for the next year... being an amateur I'm screwed. I might have like 5 sticks that are 4 months old but everything else just came off the truck the last 2 months again, Lol... sigh... what a hobby... :bawling: time to start hoarding and adding more storage space. I know that box of Tat havanas I got the end of Jan still isn't nearly ready to smoke.
> 
> I don't know about a full year but it seems to me many cigars are definitely better w/ some time under their belt. the flavors really come out if they've had proper time to sit. On the other hand some cigars are excellent and much better fresher. Very few but some are sent out ready to smoke. Of course a lot of this can also come down to ones opinion or likes...


Steven Bro......if you have a B&M close by, why not head over there and ask the clerk/manager if there's anything in the humi that's been on the shelves for a while?...if there is, then just grab a box or two; that way,you have smokes that are ready to herf while you wait for your new smokes age.


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## ouirknotamuzd (Jan 29, 2011)

kumanchu said:


> I think this is linked to how long the cigar company let them sit before sending them out, and how long the retailer had them before selling them. for example, an opus that has been sitting at a shop for a year should be the same as if it had been sitting in your own humidor for the same amount of time (given they are from the same batch)
> 
> simply because a cigar "travels" doesn't reset the time that the tobacco in the cigar has had to ferment.


cigar companies don't let their cigars sit too long in their warehouses due to tax reasons. if I understand correctly, they are taxed on their total inventory, so it wouldn't make much sense for them to keep their cigars longer than a single tax period because they'd literally be paying taxes on the same cigars twice. They ship them out ASAP and leave the aging of the cigars to the consumer

of course, I'm sure some of the makers let their uber-premium products sit longer to help finish the process because they know they're gonna charge more to the consumer so they eat the tax and just pass the price on to the buyers...it sucks, but that's just Business.


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## ouirknotamuzd (Jan 29, 2011)

this is a great thread.....not only does it shed light on certain points of cigar maturation, but it also raises more questions, vis a vis "would cutting the head off a cigar accelerate the maturation process, incorporating air exposure from both ends of the cigar?"
well, I would be remiss in my scientific curiosity if I didn't do a controlled experiment regarding this posited theory..luckily for me, I just received a new shipment of cigars, so I shall don my mad scientist outfit and begin the experiment immediately.

<sigh> the things I do for Science:whoo:
reports to follow,Gentlemen:dude:


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## Frankenstein (Jan 12, 2011)

ouirknotamuzd said:


> this is a great thread.....not only does it shed light on certain points of cigar maturation, but it also raises more questions, vis a vis "would cutting the head off a cigar accelerate the maturation process, incorporating air exposure from both ends of the cigar?"
> well, I would be remiss in my scientific curiosity if I didn't do a controlled experiment regarding this posited theory..luckily for me, I just received a new shipment of cigars, so I shall don my mad scientist outfit and begin the experiment immediately.
> 
> <sigh> the things I do for Science:whoo:
> reports to follow,Gentlemen:dude:


Excellent, Muahahahahahahahaha


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## kumanchu (Mar 16, 2011)

this is getting good


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## emk (May 4, 2009)

Honorable professors:
Are you smoking these cigars at the same time each day, paired w/ the same drinks, after you ate the same food, after you did or did not brush your teeth, after you did or did not smoke other cigars earlier?

A noble, difficult challenge that you took on. 

The opinions that I remember:
Higher RH leads to faster aging; lower RH leads to better aging.
Most CT-wrapped mild cigars won't benefit from much aging.
Most maduro-wrapped cigars don't benefit from more than a year of aging.
Spice diminishes w/age.
Some great, unique tastes are created by age.
And, particular cigars are exceptions to the generalizations that one would think apply to them.

Who will say that traditional-line Padrons such as the 000 lines get as good as the 64 & 26s w/ a lot of age, and who says that their flavor goes flat; that cheapies match expensive cigars w/ time, or that after waiting years garbage into humidors remained garbage?

Thanks.


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## dav0 (Feb 7, 2011)

emk said:


> Honorable professors:
> Are you smoking these cigars at the same time each day, paired w/ the same drinks, after you ate the same food, after you did or did not brush your teeth, after you did or did not smoke other cigars earlier?
> 
> A noble, difficult challenge that you took on.
> ...


I don't know about ALL the "professors" in this thread, but I can tell you that Ron knows a thing or two about tasting what he is smoking.

Read his reviews and compare your own notes and tell me if I'm wrong.

Just sayin'.


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## Goodkat (Sep 3, 2010)

Ok, we know that aging will help a cigar's burn and flavor immensely unless it has already been adequately aged (Padrons). We also theoretical and preliminary empirical support for the idea that a cigar ages faster at the foot. 

Now the question is how do we accelerate the aging process?

If a cigar does indeed age faster at the foot then airflow is a strong factor. If aging is an aerobic reaction then oxygen is a strong factor.

I propose a special humidor with high levels of active circulation and oxygen concentrations approaching 100%.

What say you?


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## Mr_mich (Sep 2, 2010)

Great work Ron, Keep us up to date how the next few months go. I ussually let my sticks rest about a month before i smoke one, i think i'll be waiting at least 6months now, maybe more depending on your continued finding. 

Great thread


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## Mr_mich (Sep 2, 2010)

Goodkat said:


> Ok, we know that aging will help a cigar's burn and flavor immensely unless it has already been adequately aged (Padrons). We also theoretical and preliminary empirical support for the idea that a cigar ages faster at the foot.
> 
> Now the question is how do we accelerate the aging process?
> 
> ...


That will bring up the question of does aging faster change flavor vs slow process aging.

Just like with RH, age fast in higher RH, but age better at lower RH. By speeding up the fermentation proccess you could be losing some of the benefits it adds to the flavor / charachter of the cigar.

just a thought.... and another experiment :smile:


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## BMack (Dec 8, 2010)

Ron, I'm glad you're going to try clipping a couple, this could be a major breakthrough in cigar-whorism.

...and now we wait for the new thread; "Should I store my cigars clipped or unclipped?"


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## emk (May 4, 2009)

DavO,

I was not trying to mock nor to offend.
Only intended to be amusing and to note how difficult it is.
We have all sat in a group of 5 smoking the same cigar and heard six opinions about it. 
Have a smoking good day.


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## Mr. Slick (Aug 17, 2010)

kumanchu said:


> simply because a cigar "travels" doesn't reset the time that the tobacco in the cigar has had to ferment.


Now that presents a question I've been pondering for a while.

Here is what I've come up with: 
I don't believe there is an actual "reset" or loss of age, when a cigar is shipped or frozen. But, drastically changing the environment a cigar is kept in for a short period of time will effect how it smokes. That's why we all let them rest for about a month after we receive an order. . To let the cigars reaclimate to the proper environment.

If anyone can elaborate, add to, or correct my theory from their personal experience, I'm all ears


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## Cigary (Oct 19, 2007)

Herf N Turf said:


> FINALLY! Some VINDICATION from a BOTL I love and respect!
> 
> Ron, why the hell do you think I've been preaching about not smoking ANYTHING without a year on it? Hellya! I've done those tests! Month-by-month, stick-by-stick.
> 
> ...


Amen to this from Don and special thanks to Ron for doing this in a very straightforward and honest application. I like to rest my cigars no matter what...I think doing it as an experiment on a monthly basis is the right way to go even though I always do the 1 month, 3,6,9 and then 12. With a monthly experiment you will get a more detailed account of the subtle changes the cigar goes through. Is this indicative of every cigar? Of course not but what gives this credibility is that it was done under a good set of parameters for a successful experiment without any "fudging" of facts. What makes this even sweeter is that we have a brother who has more credibility than most of us in terms of believability...Ron has more cigars than most B&M's and has probably tried more of them than most...so I tend to believe this controlled experiment is about as accurate as they come.


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## ouirknotamuzd (Jan 29, 2011)

ok, fellow cigar storage pioneers,

basically, what is trying to be determined is whether or not, under normal cigar storage conditions, a cigar which has been clipped at the head, creating another exposed area for air/moisture to enter, will accelerate the resting/aging/maturation process, whatever you wish to call it. That being posited, I decided to use cigars that I received from a shipment I got yesterday from Atlantic Cigar:

2 E.P. Carrillo Elencos series Don Rubinos(robusto)
2 Sencillo Ltd. Release 2010 double robustos

knowing that Atlantic Cigar just received these at their store, I'm confident that these cigars have been recently rolled and shipped, having had no extended shelf time, which would basically invalidate the whole point of this experiment.

the cigars in question have been removed from their cellophane wrappers, which will increase the airflow to the cigars in question. One cigar of each pair selected was clipped at the head using a Xikar guillotine cutter. The other cigar from each pair will rest/age/mature for the duration of this experiment with the cap intact. What we hope to determine is whether or not having a doubly-exposed cigar at the head and foot will allow air to double-team the cigar, thereby allowing a faster maturation rate.

The cigars in question have been placed in a rubbermaid plastic food container, which also contains 2 oz. of heartfelt 65% humidification beads which will keep the ambient environment in the container at a nice level 65% relative humidity. The container will be stored in my cellar, which will keep the temperature at around 70 degrees Farenheit for the coming warmer months ahead. I will open the lid of the container once a week to refresh the airflow in the container.

after a 6-month resting/aging/maturation period, which Ron's findings have determined is when a cigar starts coming into it's own, I will sample one pair of cigars to determine whether or not there is any discernible difference in flavor/bitterness/complexity between the clipped cigar and the non-clipped cigar.

that being said, I guess I'll back to youse mugs in 6 months:dude:


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## Cigary (Oct 19, 2007)

Mr. Slick said:


> Now that presents a question I've been pondering for a while.
> 
> Here is what I've come up with:
> I don't believe there is an actual "reset" or loss of age, when a cigar is shipped or frozen. But, drastically changing the environment a cigar is kept in for a short period of time will effect how it smokes. That's why we all let them rest for about a month after we receive an order. . To let the cigars reaclimate to the proper environment.
> ...


Good point here my brother...I'm not a chemist or somebody who has letters behind their name to merit an opinion that is 100% accurate...all I can tell you is that through my own experience is that cigars smoke their best when they are in a controlled and stable environment. Once you change those characteristics it will take time to get them back to that stage of best "smokability" and that is what we all look for (or most of us) and resting tends to bring it back IMO.


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## Mr. Slick (Aug 17, 2010)

I don't believe that speeding up the aging process is necessarily a good thing. But it would probably be fun trying.
:deadhorse:


But I will be tuning in at the same bat time, same bat channel for Shuckins tasting notes.


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## kumanchu (Mar 16, 2011)

Mr. Slick said:


> I don't believe that speeding up the aging process is necessarily a good thing. But it would probably be fun trying.
> :deadhorse:
> 
> But I will be tuning in at the same bat time, same bat channel for Shuckins tasting notes.


i question the flavor differences of fast vs. slow aging simply because the bacteria responsible for the fermentation doesn't change. i question this because I don't know why it would be different except for rate. the end result is the same (limited amount of sugar in any given cigar), the process is the same, and the bacteria responsible is the same. So then, how does fermentation rate affect flavor, and why?

I have pondered the clipped vs. non-clipped for a while, and am glad that others have stepped up to the challenge. I've been debating about doing this myself, but worried about the pectin holding up for extended periods of time without the structural support of the cap. In other words, I was worried about the cigar wrapper unraveling.

please keep the thread going, and update as more "data" becomes available


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## Mr. Slick (Aug 17, 2010)

kumanchu said:


> i question the flavor differences of fast vs. slow aging simply because the bacteria responsible for the fermentation doesn't change. i question this because I don't know why it would be different except for rate. the end result is the same (limited amount of sugar in any given cigar), the process is the same, and the bacteria responsible is the same. So then, how does fermentation rate affect flavor, and why?
> 
> I have pondered the clipped vs. non-clipped for a while, and am glad that others have stepped up to the challenge. I've been debating about doing this myself, but worried about the pectin holding up for extended periods of time without the structural support of the cap. In other words, I was worried about the cigar wrapper unraveling.
> 
> please keep the thread going, and update as more "data" becomes available


I'm not knocking your experiment in any way. I think it will be fun for you guys and if anybody comes up with something that works then more power to you. But either way it will still be fun, and the best part is we will all get to read about it here on puff.

Many people do their own tests with storing, humidifying cutting, lighting, wetting, even microwaving their cigars. When somebody finds a method that they like and works for them. . . then enough said. I believe that due to the fact that the entire cigar process from the growing, blending, aging, rolling, to aging some more, all the way to smoking, is a time honored tradition that has been passed down the generations of the families that make cigars and this process has not changed much at all in the history of cigars; there is no replacement for old fashion patients. If you are able to somehow exponentially speed up the box aging process and do within months what would normally take a few years then more power to you.
:beerchug::smoke:


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## BMack (Dec 8, 2010)

kumanchu said:


> i question the flavor differences of fast vs. slow aging simply because the bacteria responsible for the fermentation doesn't change. i question this because I don't know why it would be different except for rate. the end result is the same (limited amount of sugar in any given cigar), the process is the same, and the bacteria responsible is the same. So then, how does fermentation rate affect flavor, and why?
> 
> I have pondered the clipped vs. non-clipped for a while, and am glad that others have stepped up to the challenge. I've been debating about doing this myself, but worried about the pectin holding up for extended periods of time without the structural support of the cap. In other words, I was worried about the cigar wrapper unraveling.
> 
> please keep the thread going, and update as more "data" becomes available


That's actually one of the reasons I suggested it to Ron. He generally uses a punch, so that is very unlikely to affect the cigar structurally.


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## bigslowrock (May 9, 2010)

So the next step is to cut it and then rest it.


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## Coffee-Cup (Jan 26, 2010)

Ron! What a great thread.:thumb: There is definitely a lot to think about here and I love this informative conversation.:yo:


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## dav0 (Feb 7, 2011)

emk said:


> DavO,
> 
> I was not trying to mock nor to offend.
> Only intended to be amusing and to note how difficult it is.
> ...


No problem, I re-read it and see that I mistook the tone.

You have a good weekend, because NOW IT'S FRIDAY!! :nod:


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## kumanchu (Mar 16, 2011)

Mr. Slick said:


> I'm not knocking your experiment in any way. I think it will be fun for you guys and if anybody comes up with something that works then more power to you. But either way it will still be fun, and the best part is we will all get to read about it here on puff.
> 
> Many people do their own tests with storing, humidifying cutting, lighting, wetting, even microwaving their cigars. When somebody finds a method that they like and works for them. . . then enough said. I believe that due to the fact that the entire cigar process from the growing, blending, aging, rolling, to aging some more, all the way to smoking, is a time honored tradition that has been passed down the generations of the families that make cigars and this process has not changed much at all in the history of cigars; there is no replacement for old fashion patients. If you are able to somehow exponentially speed up the box aging process and do within months what would normally take a few years then more power to you.
> :beerchug::smoke:


Just to be clear I wasn't questioning you, just the concept that seems to have been repeated a couple times.

I am just wondering where it comes from, and why.


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## Tman (Sep 12, 2010)

Aaaaah! Too many factors for this experiment. It is an interesting conversation. Difficulty of this experiment is that it just takes so long to age/rest a cigar. Taste is so subjective too. I wonder what we perceive as something that taste good or bad. Is it the complexity? Smoothness? A certain taste that appears magically?

I'm most curious if there is some new flavor that appears after you let them age for a while. Or we perceive it as complex because there's a mingling of tobacco that's gone through more aerobic process on the outside of the cigar vs the core of the cigar.


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## Tman (Sep 12, 2010)

I also see cello vs non-cello being similar to using low vs medium heat on the stove top. Does the faster resting/aging actually make enough difference that it would affect the overall experiment? I'm guessing it all depends on the degree of aerobic reaction.


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## kumanchu (Mar 16, 2011)

Tman said:


> I also see cello vs non-cello being similar to using low vs medium heat on the stove top. Does the faster resting/aging actually make enough difference that it would affect the overall experiment? I'm guessing it all depends on the degree of aerobic reaction.


the difference though is that heat is applied from the outside in; thus high heat will have different results than lower heat because all of the heat has to pass through the outside.

fermentation differs because it works progressively, and does not need to act on the outside for the inside of the cigar to ferment. meaning, if all of the sugars have been processed on the foot; it will not "burn" the tobacco by the foot for the bacteria to ferment the center or head sections of the cigar.

also for cooking, there is a certain level of doneness that you don't want to pass. alternatively, cigar maturation is aimed at completing fermentation. once it is complete, it is done. i might actually argue that faster fermentation should be better as less time has passed when complete maturation is achieved. Thus, a smaller quantity oil from the tobacco will have evaporated.


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## ouirknotamuzd (Jan 29, 2011)

youse guys have made some very good points and I respect them all. I'm just a goofy guy who's playing mad scientist and wants to see what happens when the head of a cigar is clipped and then laid down during the resting phase..if there's no difference whatsoever, then I lose nothing; but, at least I'll know for certain with no damage done. If there is a difference and possibility for a shorter sick phase, then, as far as I'm concerned, we all win because we will have empirical evidence on our side.
I'm not one to argue with what works. There is wisdom in something that has proven to be successful time and time again. but, tradition is not the same as wisdom. When Columbus arrive in the New World, the natives used to stick their cigars up their noses and smoke them that way. then, I suppose someone saw that and said to himself, "yaknow, that looks really goofy. I wonder what would happen if I drew smoke from this thing using my mouth instead of my nose?" well, he must've liked the results or else he would've gone back to the traditional native way of smoking a cigar.

well, I guess that's my 2 cents,Fellas. Keep the feedback comin', cuz I'm really enjoying this threadeace:


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## BMack (Dec 8, 2010)

There will always be more questions:
Cello/no-cello
clipped/non-clipped
Standing up/laying down
RH%
Time
Temperature
Wrapper specific
Country specific
Brand Specific
Blend Specific

And all of these are multiplied by every sub-classification of the classifications.

This is a great test though and it's very interesting.


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## dav0 (Feb 7, 2011)

If a cigar exists in a vacuum, does it age? :ask:


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## kumanchu (Mar 16, 2011)

dav0 said:


> If a cigar exists in a vacuum, does it age? :ask:


if by age, you mean continue aerobic fermentation; no it won't.


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## dav0 (Feb 7, 2011)

kumanchu said:


> if by age, you mean continue aerobic fermentation; no it won't.


Eh, it was just a feeble attempt at trying to sound philosophical.

ie. "If a tree falls in the forrest....."

Epic Fail, I guess!:frusty:


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## eyesack (Jul 19, 2009)

dav0 said:


> Eh, it was just a feeble attempt at trying to sound philosophical.
> 
> ie. "If a tree falls in the forrest....."
> 
> Epic Fail, I guess!:frusty:


Haha! I thought it was funny, bro!

Anywho, wow, what a read! Ron, I like where this is going...

Kumanchu, you bring up an interesting point regarding the levels of oils still left in the tobacco after the fermentation/aging process finishes.

First of all, I was under the impression that the fermentation stops a few months after the cigar is rolled, then possibly resumes for a bit. I thought that aging was the actual time after the fermentation when the chemicals we taste during smoking change. That process might not be fermentation, per definition. The process could actually be changes in (flavonoids?) the chemicals we taste, changing, or losing properties that we can perceive through our noses.

That being said, perhaps the amount of oil in the tobacco leaf determines what these perceived taste changes are; is there a way to measure that? There probably is, but it would cost vast amounts of money for the equipment, even then, the experiment's design would probably need to undergo revision upon revision until a valid process could be agreed upon.

Aaaaaaaaaaaand, I lost my train of thought. :bolt::bolt:


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## WyldKnyght (Apr 1, 2011)

Herf N Turf said:


> FINALLY! Some VINDICATION from a BOTL I love and respect!
> 
> Ron, why the hell do you think I've been preaching about not smoking ANYTHING without a year on it? Hellya! I've done those tests! Month-by-month, stick-by-stick.
> 
> ...


Ok, I have a problem, I just started collecting, does that mean I can't smoke for a year??? LOL LOL :frown: :ask:

Don could you send me a years worth of year old cigars to hold me over LOL LOL oke: oke: oke:


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## ouirknotamuzd (Jan 29, 2011)

dav0 said:


> Eh, it was just a feeble attempt at trying to sound philosophical.
> 
> ie. "If a tree falls in the forrest....."
> 
> Epic Fail, I guess!:frusty:


you mean like "if a tree falls on someone in a forest, can anyone hear the tree laughing?"


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## Cigary (Oct 19, 2007)

The science and experience behind the curing and fermentation process is something that each manufacturer does accordingly to their specifications. No two ways are exactly alike and this is why we have so many different kinds of tasty cigars...obviously some manufacturers are better at this than others. The type of tobacco being used obviously makes a difference and it's the manipulation of how the process goes that makes the difference. Men who have been doing this for decades keep their recipes and how they do their work a secret. 

Every one knows about the curing process of tobacco and some take as short as 20 days or so while others take as long as 40 days and longer and this also takes into consideration the weather conditions...how and where they are housed. The variables increase in this process because the idea is to ferment the leaf die slowly enough where it doesn't begin to rot or break down. 

As the tobacco continues to mature/age/rest keeping them in the best possible stable and consistant environment is key so that the oils are there as much as possible...most will tell you that the 70/70 approach is going to give the tobacco more oils...less than the 70% tends to give it less ( not my opinion but from manufacturers who do this for a living)...

After we purchase the finished product then it becomes our "baby" as to how we store them and then it becomes a matter of taste for each of us to discern how we like it. 

The mystery of when or how the maturation process is achieved..slow or quick and how quick the oils are achieved leads me to believe that it's about how they are cared for in everything I am reading. Manipulating the process to make it short doesn't seem to be what manufacturers are trying to do as much as following the process. Oils are discharged because of the stable and correct environment and not because of a hurried up process...oils from cigars come out because of the aging process... period.

Lighting, cutting or wetting cigars is something that each of us tend to practice in trying to get that better tasting cigar for "us"...at the end of the day it can't be a "sure" thing as to how we manipulate the process to tell anyone what is the better way but it sure is fun for us to find the "Holy Grail Cigar/Process."


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## gahdzila (Apr 29, 2010)

shuckins said:


> as some of you may know,i have a few cigars.


Understatement of the year LOL

Thanks for the experiment, Ron. I've always noticed that cigars that I've had in my humidor for a little longer tasted better, but I'm just now starting to get organized about it and date cigars when I buy them.

Interesting discussion, guys!


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## StogieNinja (Jul 29, 2009)

Thoroughly interesting and intriguing subject. There's so many opinions and ideas its hard to know what to believe. 

Much like Craig, I don't have any old cigars. I tend to smoke about 5-8 a month, so my plan is to start buying 10 or so a mint and laying them down, and
For the next sux months, smoke my current stash I figure I can then start a 6 month rotation and always enjoy "aged" sticks. 

The one problem I can already see is that I smoke 1-2 sticks a week right now, but that's up from 1-2 a month previously. If I keep increasing the frequency with which I smoke, it's gonna throw a wrench in my whole plan! Maybe I should be looking at a box a month...


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## usrower321 (Mar 27, 2011)

Interesting opinions guys and a great read. I'm interested in the "speeding up aging (resting)" by taking off cellos. Do you really think it makes that much of a difference? Either way I still won't take my cellos off to protect the wrappers. I may cut the ends off to open the feet, but I also write the date on the end flap and if they're traded who they're from. I don't want to use a sharpie on cello that will contact the cigar.


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## tpharkman (Feb 20, 2010)

I have been a little frustrated lately because when I light a smoke most of the time the first 1/3 or less presents the most appealing and complex flavors. After they move past that point they tend to become more dull and less satisfying. It could be that I am mostly smoking younger ccs or it could be that I smoke all of my cigars too fast.

I would give anything to have my cigars smoke as well toward the last 1/3 as they do in the first. I will say that this does happen when I smoke more well rested smokes than not.


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## emk (May 4, 2009)

Thad,
I often only smoke half of the cigar or less. I was not giving enough time between puffs. It was half of the problem. I also was pulling hard, taking a lot of smoke in. I try to take it slower & do what I've heard called "sipping". Been getting a better, longer experience w/ the cigars most of the time.


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## Torqued (May 18, 2011)

Wow. Lots of interesting discussion/info in this thread!


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## kumanchu (Mar 16, 2011)

emk said:


> Thad,
> I often only smoke half of the cigar or less. I was not giving enough time between puffs. It was half of the problem. I also was pulling hard, taking a lot of smoke in. I try to take it slower & do what I've heard called "sipping". Been getting a better, longer experience w/ the cigars most of the time.


another thing that may help is smoking larger RG cigars :smoke:


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