# If you buy online - you might wish to read this



## Bruced

Was sent this by an online retailer this am. Thought I would share.

Say NO to the Marketplace Fairness Act - Say YES to a Tax-Free Internet - Smokers Rights Hub


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## Joe Sticks

When a politician says the word 'fairness', watch out for your wallet. Well actually, if a politician says anything watch out for your wallet. They are a den of vipers and thieves.


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## Bruced

We as voters, can write our member of the House of Representatives, and two US Senators. Letters do count, but take effort, time, and a stamp.

Doing nothing get no results but more taxes, and laws to make like el crapo.


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## SoCal Gunner

I'm on it. I think everyone would just stop selling to CA if this went through. Much like the firearm parts, accessories, and ammo vendors.


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## JohnBrody15

We've already taxed the crap out of the local business in our state, now lets tax all the local businesses in your state!


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## Bruced

Politicians forget who elected them to office to look out for rights & interests of the people they we elected to represent. Be it in rural area, a townships, a cities, a county, state or national office.

Then the people we elected seem to forget those who employed them as representatives. One in office they love to creat bigger government, pass more laws, and work real hard on see their constituents pay more taxes.

The system is very very broken & I personally see no end in sight. I honestly think our founding fathers had zero idea that politics would someday become a full time profession. Or that PAC's, Special Intrests, and Lobbiests could control so much of what effects our daily lives.


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## ras_oscar

I disagree with the entire premise that a B&M is at a tax disadvantage due to sales tax. Online retailers have to pay for packaging and shipping.


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## dortold

ras_oscar said:


> I disagree with the entire premise that a B&M is at a tax disadvantage due to sales tax. Online retailers have to pay for packaging and shipping.


It's certainly not as simple as they put it. Although as a Canadian, I have a bit of Stockholm syndrome for taxes, lol.

Mainly I would argue that online/B&M are not necessarily competing for the same dollar. Personally, I go to the B&M to get the kind of experience I can't get online.

There's something nice about going to a real place and getting to visually peruse the actual cigars you're going to smoke, rather than their pictures. I shop in a very different way online vs. B&M: for instance, I would never pay $25.00+ for a stick I've never tried online; but at a B&M? Sure, I'll give it a shot.


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## Cigary

​


Bruced said:


> We as voters, can write our member of the House of Representatives, and two US Senators. Letters do count, but take effort, time, and a stamp.
> 
> Doing nothing get no results but more taxes, and laws to make like el crapo.


All of them have email addresses...don't need a stamp or envelope but remember that anytime you write to them....you go on a list...what kind of list?? You know what kind of list and you become a target. I used to write and send comments to every jagoff in Gov't to complain about what goes on and all I ever got was a form response...that's it. The world is bigger than any of us want to understand about change...in the last 50 years what exactly has changed for the better....and whatever anybody can list I can list a ratio of 10:1 as to what hasn't changed for the better. It's cyclical and anybody who knows history knows it repeats itself and there are those who pray for change and do the good work....and God bless em for that but a certain reality exists and when you talk with older senior citizens they will enlighten all of us because....they've lived in the history but it's the coming Generations who don't heed the advice and it runs full circle. ( reporting from my cave ....this is HomeNewsNetwork ....have a nice day ):serious:


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## php007

ras_oscar said:


> I disagree with the entire premise that a B&M is at a tax disadvantage due to sales tax. Online retailers have to pay for packaging and shipping.


It's not only sales tax, please factor in the state tobacco tax as well. I am not a retailer but know many in the business, here in California we are back to 60% + tobacco tax plus sales tax of up to 10% based on counties. Do the math it out weighs the discounted shipping rates online retailers face. Now factor in the lounge experience and overhead the B&M faces well.


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## MidwestToker

Cigary said:


> ​...in the last 50 years what exactly has changed for the better...


Civil rights for a number of different minority groups...worker safety and rights...technology...access to higher education...environmental cleanliness...entertainment (we're living in the golden age of television)...medicine...access to thousands upon thousands of great cigars...the fact that I will be able to Facetime with my future nephew...the fact that my brother isn't dead from cancer...etc.

I understand nostalgia, but saying things were better 50 years ago just doesn't make sense to me. Better for who?


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## huffer33

That is going to be a total crap show. I'll withhold my comments on the players given the forum rules.


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## UBC03

Every generation thinks they're living in the best of times.

50 years from now(well I'll be dead, but some of ya) you will be telling your grandkids about the good ole days.. Were you had to settle for 300 channels on tv and actually had to steer your own car..

It's all about perspective.
Agreed advances in technology are great, but you have internet crime. 

Safety and rights of workers are better because of guys fighting for it 50 years ago.

Higher education.. Easily accessed, but you pay for it for the rest of your life..

I do agree there's not much downside to medical advances and having clean streams to fish.

Again it's all how you look at it.. I'm not a big proponent of lingering in the good ole days. Change and adapt. Hell I'm on a smart phone talking to yunz jagoffs located all over the world. I remember when you couldn't make a phone call because your neighbor was using theirs.. ( that was called a party line kiddos)

Hell I hope I'm alive long enough to bitch about 50 years ago..lol

To each there own. Just enjoy the ride, we only get so many trips around the sun..





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## Cigary

MidwestToker said:


> Civil rights for a number of different minority groups...worker safety and rights...technology...access to higher education...environmental cleanliness...entertainment (we're living in the golden age of television)...medicine...access to thousands upon thousands of great cigars...the fact that I will be able to Facetime with my future nephew...the fact that my brother isn't dead from cancer...etc.
> 
> I understand nostalgia, but saying things were better 50 years ago just doesn't make sense to me. Better for who?


Oh obviously in 2017 we're at the height of what's been the best....thank God for video games and cellphones and Internet which spreads dissension faster than the last 6000 years....you're right...why would I complain with having 6 decades under my belt to actually compare and contrast...that's just plain nonsense.:wink2:


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## Cigary

huffer33 said:


> That is going to be a total crap show. I'll withhold my comments on the players given the forum rules.


Crap shows are not invited...reasonable discourse and respect are...we learn from those who can actually give a valid opinion but you may be right in that opinions can take a dirt road in a hurry so you might be the smartest poster today.


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## Cigary

UBC03 said:


> Every generation thinks they're living in the best of times.
> 
> 50 years from now(well I'll be dead, but some of ya) you will be telling your grandkids about the good ole days.. Were you had to settle for 300 channels on tv and actually had to steer your own car..
> 
> It's all about perspective.
> Agreed advances in technology are great, but you have internet crime.
> 
> Safety and rights of workers are better because of guys fighting for it 50 years ago.
> 
> Higher education.. Easily accessed, but you pay for it for the rest of your life..
> 
> I do agree there's not much downside to medical advances and having clean streams to fish.
> 
> Again it's all how you look at it.. I'm not a big proponent of lingering in the good ole days. Change and adapt. Hell I'm on a smart phone talking to yunz jagoffs located all over the world. I remember when you couldn't make a phone call because your neighbor was using theirs.. ( that was called a party line kiddos)
> 
> Hell I hope I'm alive long enough to bitch about 50 years ago..lol
> 
> To each there own. Just enjoy the ride, we only get so many trips around the sun..
> 
> Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk


There ya go again ....making total sense.:smile2:


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## MidwestToker

Cigary said:


> Oh obviously in 2017 we're at the height of what's been the best....thank God for video games and cellphones and Internet which spreads dissension faster than the last 6000 years....you're right...why would I complain with having 6 decades under my belt to actually compare and contrast...that's just plain nonsense.:wink2:


I might not have 60 years of first-hand experience, but I do have a history book. The 50's, 60's and 70's and even 80's were not fun times for minority populations. It wasn't fun for Earth, either. The passage of the Civil Rights Act in 1967 did little to actually address racial discrimination and it would be years before basic human rights were afforded to many people. The Clean Water Act of 1977 finally helped address the fact that our rivers, lakes and swamps were filled with dangerous pollutants. I could go on and on about what has improved over the last 50 years. Again, my brother owes his life to modern medicine.

I don't think video games or cellphones or the internet are really comparable to that kind of human suffering. I'm not saying 2017 is perfect. Far from it. But I only know one direction: forward.


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## huffer33

Cigary said:


> Crap shows are not invited...reasonable discourse and respect are...we learn from those who can actually give a valid opinion but you may be right in that opinions can take a dirt road in a hurry so you might be the smartest poster today.


I'm not referring to posters here - everyone is entitled to their opinion and I don't take politics seriously.

It just seems that the amount of book keeping involved to keep track of taxes you owe to each and every state is prohibitive - hence the crap show. B&M have significant extra costs for the facility already. IMO they should also be looking at online distribution themselves, which this will negatively impact.


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## GOT14U

I'll take the good old days. Deals done on a hand shake and my kids could walk to the neighborhood store or the park without me worrying. I can do without the internet, cell phones, and most this new technology. Just my .02




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## Cigary

MidwestToker said:


> I might not have 60 years of first-hand experience, but I do have a history book. The 50's, 60's and 70's and even 80's were not fun times for minority populations. It wasn't fun for Earth, either. The passage of the Civil Rights Act in 1967 did little to actually address racial discrimination and it would be years before basic human rights were afforded to many people. The Clean Water Act of 1977 finally helped address the fact that our rivers, lakes and swamps were filled with dangerous pollutants. I could go on and on about what has improved over the last 50 years. Again, my brother owes his life to modern medicine.
> 
> I don't think video games or cellphones or the internet are really comparable to that kind of human suffering. I'm not saying 2017 is perfect. Far from it. But I only know one direction: forward.


Because history books are infallible. Are there good things that are available now days.....of course but equating the benefits of a certain generation to another is more than a balance sheet. I'll take respect and kindness from a past generation than the current one where selfishness is epidemic and "what's in it for me" is the calling card. Guess it depends where one aligns themselves....giver or a taker and it doesn't take a graduate student to discern that paradigm.


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## MidwestToker

Cigary said:


> Because history books are infallible. Are there good things that are available now days.....of course but equating the benefits of a certain generation to another is more than a balance sheet. I'll take respect and kindness from a past generation than the current one where selfishness is epidemic and "what's in it for me" is the calling card. Guess it depends where one aligns themselves....giver or a taker and it doesn't take a graduate student to discern that paradigm.


I'll just respectfully disagree with you.

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## Hickorynut

Cigary said:


> ​
> All of them have email addresses...don't need a stamp or envelope but remember that anytime you write to them....you go on a list...what kind of list?? You know what kind of list and you become a target. I used to write and send comments to every jagoff in Gov't to complain about what goes on and all I ever got was a form response...that's it. The world is bigger than any of us want to understand about change...in the last 50 years what exactly has changed for the better....and whatever anybody can list I can list a ratio of 10:1 as to what hasn't changed for the better. It's cyclical and anybody who knows history knows it repeats itself and there are those who pray for change and do the good work....and God bless em for that but a certain reality exists and when you talk with older senior citizens they will enlighten all of us because....they've lived in the history but it's the coming Generations who don't heed the advice and it runs full circle. ( reporting from my cave ....this is HomeNewsNetwork ....have a nice day ):serious:


amen reverend....well said.....


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## UBC03

I think if you're in your 40's - 50's you're in the perfect slot to observe the happenings.
I remember streams ,that I fish now, we're sulfur filled and orange from mine run off when I was a kid. But now there's less streams because of housing developments..

I remember kids sat and waited to be addressed by adults before you spoke. If you spoke outta turn you got a bloody mouth. 

Things were simpler then kids were free to be kids, but if you saw parents crying and whisper the "c" word about a kid. You knew that kid was probably gonna die..

What I'm trying to say is with every one thing that was good about the old days , there were bad too. Same as now. For every advancement we make , we lose a little of the innocence of simpler times. 

Do I want to live like the Amish?..NO

Do I want to be in a full blown panic if the internet goes out or I forget my cell...NO

There's a mix between old and new that you need to become comfortable with. It's not a societal problem, it's individual problem. After all don't individuals create the society they live in?



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## MidwestToker

UBC03 said:


> I think if you're in your 40's - 50's you're in the perfect slot to observe the happenings.
> I remember streams ,that I fish now, we're sulfur filled and orange from mine run off when I was a kid. But now there's less streams because of housing developments..
> 
> I remember kids sat and waited to be addressed by adults before you spoke. If you spoke outta turn you got a bloody mouth.
> 
> Things were simpler then kids were free to be kids, but if you saw parents crying and whisper the "c" word about a kid. You knew that kid was probably gonna die..
> 
> What I'm trying to say is with every one thing that was good about the old days , there were bad too. Same as now. For every advancement we make , we lose a little of the innocence of simpler times.
> 
> Do I want to live like the Amish?..NO
> 
> Do I want to be in a full blown panic if the internet goes out or I forget my cell...NO
> 
> There's a mix between old and new that you need to become comfortable with. It's not a societal problem, it's individual problem. After all don't individuals create the society they live in?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk


Well put, buddy. Trust me, 2017 annoys the shit out of me, too. I'm old enough to remember no cellphones and no internet. It scares the shit out of me that people prop their kids in front of a tablet and call that parenting. It also annoys me that kids are obsessed with getting "likes" and followers on Facebook. I think today's kids are more self-centered. But we've made a lot of progress in a lot of areas and we just gotta keep going while also respecting what was good about the past.

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## huffer33

MidwestToker said:


> Well put, buddy. Trust me, 2017 annoys the shit out of me, too. I'm old enough to remember no cellphones and no internet. It scares the shit out of me that people prop their kids in front of a tablet and call that parenting. It also annoys me that kids are obsessed with getting "likes" and followers on Facebook. I think today's kids are more self-centered. But we've made a lot of progress in a lot of areas and we just gotta keep going while also respecting what was good about the past.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I got a tablet when I was pretty young.


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## jc389

huffer33 said:


> I'm not referring to posters here - everyone is entitled to their opinion and I don't take politics seriously.
> 
> It just seems that the amount of book keeping involved to keep track of taxes you owe to each and every state is prohibitive - hence the crap show. B&M have significant extra costs for the facility already. IMO they should also be looking at online distribution themselves, which this will negatively impact.


I think the root of all of the problem is the fact that states all charge different amounts of taxes in the name of "public health" or whatever the hell they want to claim. The problem with being a B&M is that the tax has to be paid upon receipt of the tobacco. For instance here in CO I have to pay a 40% tax within 30 days of receipt. If I fail then its 500%.... yes... 500%. So for me to sell online is impossible because I already have to mark everything up so drastically compared to the states that pay 0% tax. Granted I only sell a very small selection of cigars in a tourist town so my prices are fair for getting it right this minute.

You can see the absurdity here as to how different states all choose different rates
Cigar Taxes by State - halfwheel

You will notice that in Washington DC the tax is 0% Have to make sure that all of the politicians that are making these absurd laws dont pay extra for their cigars....


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## Cigary

MidwestToker said:


> I'll just respectfully disagree with you.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That would be the smart play....kudos to you for that discernment.


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## MidwestToker

Cigary said:


> That would be the smart play....kudos to you for that discernment.


Sometimes I forget my rule to not argue with people on the internet. It always goes nowhere. But I respect you as a longstanding member of this forum and would gladly smoke a cigar with you any day.

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## huffer33

jc389 said:


> I think the root of all of the problem is the fact that states all charge different amounts of taxes in the name of "public health" or whatever the hell they want to claim. The problem with being a B&M is that the tax has to be paid upon receipt of the tobacco. For instance here in CO I have to pay a 40% tax within 30 days of receipt. If I fail then its 500%.... yes... 500%. So for me to sell online is impossible because I already have to mark everything up so drastically compared to the states that pay 0% tax. Granted I only sell a very small selection of cigars in a tourist town so my prices are fair for getting it right this minute.
> 
> You can see the absurdity here as to how different states all choose different rates
> Cigar Taxes by State - halfwheel
> 
> You will notice that in Washington DC the tax is 0% Have to make sure that all of the politicians that are making these absurd laws dont pay extra for their cigars....


I'm sure we all agree that is ridiculous and it certainly will compound the issue for online cigar vendors.

This is across all vendors though and it is a reaction to loss in sales tax as a result of ever increasing internet sales. In NC they have a place where you are supposed to volunteer the information for online purchases for which no tax was paid. But that wasn't good enough for those backing this. I don't think it has anything to do with protecting B&M as they claim.

If sales taxes are an undue burden on B&M and the money isn't getting dolled out fairly state to state any more due to internet sales, then get rid of sales taxes and fund your state a different way. Or spend less... Businesses in other states are not to be beholden to pay taxes in states they are not represented in.


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## Cigary

MidwestToker said:


> Sometimes I forget my rule to not argue with people on the internet. It always goes nowhere. But I respect you as a longstanding member of this forum and would gladly smoke a cigar with you any day.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Respect as they say is earned.... my longstanding membership won't buy me a cup of coffee at McDonald's but if the respect is borne out of true and accurate discussion .... that I'll accept as its easier to differentiate between actions and words and I wasn't arguing with you...it's called exchanging ideas which should be taught like it was 30 to 50 years ago. Now it's too common to use words like argue when engaging in a dialogue with another...basically saying I don't or won't have a respectful conversation because the other party just wants to be argumentative...or did I read your comment wrong in that you don't argue with "people " on the Internet?&#128527;


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## MidwestToker

Cigary said:


> Respect as they say is earned.... my longstanding membership won't buy me a cup of coffee at McDonald's but if the respect is borne out of true and accurate discussion .... that I'll accept as its easier to differentiate between actions and words and I wasn't arguing with you...it's called exchanging ideas which should be taught like it was 30 to 50 years ago. Now it's too common to use words like argue when engaging in a dialogue with another...basically saying I don't or won't have a respectful conversation because the other party just wants to be argumentative...or did I read your comment wrong in that you don't argue with "people " on the Internet?��


It's not that I don't want to engage in an exchange of ideas, it's that I think we're coming at this from very different perspectives and I don't think we're going to convince each other otherwise. But hell, I'll play.

For some people, I'm sure that 1967 was bliss and 2017 is full of annoyance. But for the vast majority of minorities, including people of color, women, the LGBT community, etc., it was not. It was filled with being terrified for their literal well-being. Black people were being lynched in the 1960's. Gay people were ostracized and sent away for being mentally ill. Women were severely discriminated against in the work place. My mom was told point blank in 1982 that she didn't get a journalism job because a woman couldn't handle that kind of stress.

Hell, the Americans With Disabilities Act wasn't passed until 1990. Before that, it was free game to discriminate against people because their legs didn't work like the rest of us.

You should also ask all the loved ones of people who died of illnesses that have since been either better treated or cured in the last 50-60 years. My uncle almost died of polio. Now there's a simple vaccine to completely prevent it.

Again, I think these issues are far more scary than children playing video games or people arguing on Facebook.

And while we're at it, for those who think that this country is more dangerous or sinister than decades past, crime data will tell you that we're living in the safest decade in recent memory:










Further more, any current societal ills that you perceive would only be the result of people of your generation. Who do you think makes up the majority of our federal politicians? Your generation. Who do you think raised my generation? Your generation.


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## UBC03

Welp at least yunz guys are givin me something to do until the storm passes and my dish comes back on..lol



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## Cigary

MidwestToker said:


> It's not that I don't want to engage in an exchange of ideas, it's that I think we're coming at this from very different perspectives and I don't think we're going to convince each other otherwise. But hell, I'll play.
> 
> For some people, I'm sure that 1967 was bliss and 2017 is full of annoyance. But for the vast majority of minorities, including people of color, women, the LGBT community, etc., it was not. It was filled with being terrified for their literal well-being. Black people were being lynched in the 1960's. Gay people were ostracized and sent away for being mentally ill. Women were severely discriminated against in the work place. My mom was told point blank in 1982 that she didn't get a journalism job because a woman couldn't handle that kind of stress.
> 
> Hell, the Americans With Disabilities Act wasn't passed until 1990. Before that, it was free game to discriminate against people because their legs didn't work like the rest of us.
> 
> You should also ask all the loved ones of people who died of illnesses that have since been either better treated or cured in the last 50-60 years. My uncle almost died of polio. Now there's a simple vaccine to completely prevent it.
> 
> Again, I think these issues are far more scary than children playing video games or people arguing on Facebook.
> 
> And while we're at it, for those who think that this country is more dangerous or sinister than decades past, crime data will tell you that we're living in the safest decade in recent memory:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Further more, any current societal ills that you perceive would only be the result of people of your generation. Who do you think makes up the majority of our federal politicians? Your generation. Who do you think raised my generation? Your generation.


But hell, I'll play. Is that what we're doing...playing? Ya see this is where it gets muddled...I look at it as exchanging ideas....you look at this as if it's a competition...playing.

#1 I didn't raise you...#2 your points have no validation as to what we're talking about as they are vague and ambiguous at best. I'm talking cumulative history not segmented parts of history that play to bias. I'm talking about respect...kindness....things that affect the nature of society. Data can be manipulated accordingly to ones own bias....not once did you offer up morality as to how people should act or what's right and wrong...you base your argument from other peoples ideology and then adopt that as your own platform to push or believe.

As far as health concerns I agree with you....it's better today than it's ever been but how does that even suggest how far man has come as a result of him becoming so belligerent and intolerant of others? Yes, mankind has had a history of being very immoral but now it's cascaded forward to where there is no morality but only an idea perpetuated by what's popular. If society keeps moving forward where it's going....turn on the news 24 hours a day and you see a country so divided that who wants to brag about how "great" things are....so glad that you're keeping this respectful and are playing with me. I can do this in my sleep.:smile2:


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## GOT14U

I think keeping people alive longer is a detriment to our planet. Need to go back to when life expectancy was about 50ish.....a lot of us may be gone but how about those fifty years....lol.....on a serious note there are good and bad from every era.....except for maybe this one.


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## Kidvegas

UBC03 said:


> Welp at least yunz guys are givin me something to do until the storm passes and my dish comes back on..lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk


Lol....you ain't joking bro, I've been scrolling this thread for half a cigar!

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## UBC03

GOT14U said:


> I think keeping people alive longer is a detriment to our planet. Need to go back to when life expectancy was about 50ish.....a lot of us may be gone but how about those fifty years....lol.....on a serious note there are good and bad from every era.....except for maybe this one.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I was like..wtf , I'm almost fifty.. I'm already gettin asked who gets what when I kick off.. Damn you had me wonderin.. Thank God for the lol at the end

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## GOT14U

UBC03 said:


> I was like..wtf , I'm almost fifty.. I'm already gettin asked who gets what when I kick off.. Damn you had me wonderin.. Thank God for the lol at the end
> 
> Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk


It's my sick sense of reality. But makes you think do we really need to live till 80+......???



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## MidwestToker

Cigary said:


> #1 I didn't raise you...#2 your points have no validation as to what we're talking about as they are vague and ambiguous at best. I'm talking cumulative history not segmented parts of history that play to bias. I'm talking about respect...kindness....things that affect the nature of society. Data can be manipulated accordingly to ones own bias....not once did you offer up morality as to how people should act or what's right and wrong...you base your argument from other peoples ideology and then adopt that as your own platform to push or believe.
> 
> As far as health concerns I agree with you....it's better today than it's ever been but how does that even suggest how far man has come as a result of him becoming so belligerent and intolerant of others? Yes, mankind has had a history of being very immoral but now it's cascaded forward to where there is no morality but only an idea perpetuated by what's popular. If society keep moving forward where it's going....turn on the news 24 hours a day and you see a country so divided that who wants to brag about how "great" things are....so glad that you're keeping this respectful and are playing with me. I can do this in my sleep.:smile2:


I don't understand your argument. You think people are more intolerant now because you think kids are disrespectful? Because people argue on the news and on the internet?

I stand by all my points, and they have the validity of documented history and data.

That the basic human rights of people of color, women, LGBT, and people with disabilities has been greatly improved since 1967 is just a fact. I find it strange that you think people were so much more moral-minded back then when such systemic discrimination was allowed to exist. Like I said, employers were allowed to not hire people because they were in a wheelchair. Employers showed my mother the door because she was a woman. Doesn't sound so virtuous to me.

I have offered up plenty of information on my morality. I don't think people should discriminate based on gender, disability, race or gender. I think we should do everything in our power to protect our planet from pollution. And on those points, and many others, our country has progressed ten-fold in 50 years. Let's keep going.

But like I said, we're not going to convince each other of anything. I'll agree to disagree.

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## UBC03

GOT14U said:


> It's my sick sense of reality. But makes you think do we really need to live till 80+......???
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I've posted pics..if I live to 80 I'm gonna be a freakin mess.. But I don't see that happen so I'm not concerned..

Right now I wanna get to January to mail out the pic ems to the winners..lol

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## GOT14U

UBC03 said:


> I've posted pics..if I live to 80 I'm gonna be a freakin mess.. But I don't see that happen so I'm not concerned..
> 
> Right now I wanna get to January to mail out the pic ems to the winners..lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk


Lmao

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## Cigary

MidwestToker said:


> I don't understand your argument. You think people are more intolerant now because you think kids are disrespectful? Because people argue on the news and on the internet?
> 
> I stand by all my points, and they have the validity of documented history and data.
> 
> That the basic human rights of people of color, women, LGBT, and people with disabilities has been greatly improved since 1967 is just a fact. I find it strange that you think people were so much more moral-minded back then when such systemic discrimination was allowed to exist. Like I said, employers were allowed to not hire people because they were in a wheelchair. Employers showed my mother the door because she was a woman. Doesn't sound so virtuous to me.
> 
> I have offered up plenty of information on my morality. I don't think people should discriminate based on gender, disability, race or gender. I think we should do everything in our power to protect our planet from pollution. And on those points, and many others, our country has progressed ten-fold in 50 years. Let's keep going.
> 
> But like I said, we're not going to convince each other of anything. I'll agree to disagree.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What part of actually being there and seeing for myself what took place....you weren't there so you draw a conclusion based on what you read or hear today. Your virtuosity stems from an idea of morality and then take a position based on a segmented POV of things that weren't perfect at the time....I talked about a morality that most people admitted to and yes there were a holes that you brought up were a part of history but todays history is being changed as we speak....a revisionist history that actually happened and we live with that so that we can become a better society. You don't understand that nor will you probably ever because you didn't live it so you use strawman analogies of Gay rights, or abortion rights or anything else that lets you hold a position of how great things are today...that's a better society? I don't care about peoples sexuality....I know more about disability in my little finger than you'll ever know in your whole life so you need to stop with the plagiarizing of what you think you know and what you really know and your graduate or undergraduate degrees aren't going to give you the real education that you really need.

You're right...we're never going to see things the same....I'm from a generation that sees things from a moral compass while this generation tends to see things from a myopic POV...don't believe me? Watch 24 hours of any news channel and marketing and advertising POV...they are not espousing what's good for their fellow man ....they are all about selling to the individual and the individual is what is so important as they graft the idea of looking like they are wanting to help others.....as long as the generation before is paying the bill today for those who are too lazy to actually work for what they want....what do they call that again.... socialism?

For the rest of those who are reading this.....as long as discussions can move forward w/o it becoming something where it degrades into disrespect and name calling this might be an example of how to discuss things. Probably the smarter thing is not to dip your wick into something that could go in the wrong direction and that's where I will leave this.:smile2:


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## ras_oscar

MidwestToker said:


> I don't understand your argument. You think people are more intolerant now because you think kids are disrespectful? Because people argue on the news and on the internet?
> 
> I stand by all my points, and they have the validity of documented history and data.
> 
> That the basic human rights of people of color, women, LGBT, and people with disabilities has been greatly improved since 1967 is just a fact. I find it strange that you think people were so much more moral-minded back then when such systemic discrimination was allowed to exist. Like I said, employers were allowed to not hire people because they were in a wheelchair. Employers showed my mother the door because she was a woman. Doesn't sound so virtuous to me.
> 
> I have offered up plenty of information on my morality. I don't think people should discriminate based on gender, disability, race or gender. I think we should do everything in our power to protect our planet from pollution. And on those points, and many others, our country has progressed ten-fold in 50 years. Let's keep going.
> 
> But like I said, we're not going to convince each other of anything. I'll agree to disagree.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You're looking at history through the lens of a 2017 value system. By our (modern?) standards, you are absolutely correct. however, 50 years ago the values of society were different. I'm not saying better or worse, only different. For comparison; Suppose our future selves 50 years from now shame us because of our refusal to grant rights to computers? does that make us evil?


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## mstevens

ras_oscar said:


> You're looking at history through the lens of a 2017 value system. By our (modern?) standards, you are absolutely correct. however, 50 years ago the values of society were different. I'm not saying better or worse, only different.


I'm saying worse.

There was every reason for people to know better. In fact, we DID know better. Those who knew what was right fought for it.

Claiming something wrong was OK because many people did it (in the face of loud voices from others saying it was wrong) does not make it right.



ras_oscar said:


> For comparison; Suppose our future selves 50 years from now shame us because of our refusal to grant rights to computers? does that make us evil?


If a computer independently made a cogent argument in favor of its rights before the US Supreme Court and we refused to grant them? Yes, that absolutely would be evil. Are you saying this has happened?

You give the impression that you are making a comparison between, say, a black woman and a fungible device. Even though Dredd Scott was eventually declared to be property, nobody ever claimed that he was not thinking and speaking independently. They gave him his day in court to make his case, then made the wrong decision.

Before you say "OK, that was a bad example", I'm going to point out that there are no good examples to support the idea that evil in the past was justified because standards at the time were different.


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## TCstr8

There's a reason there hasn't been a post in 2 months here. It was getting heated and calmer heads prevailed. 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but at the end of the day, how many people do you believe have changed their outlook because someone else typed some words online. I'm guessing not many.

Let sleeping dogs lie.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## bpegler

Religion and politics really have no place on a cigar board.


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## asmartbull

Heck, that was 45 minutes I'll never get back......


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