# The Thorn in the Side



## Stogie (Feb 13, 2007)

Hey guys I wanted to ask a question and talk a bit about my view on the cigar legislation. I totally understand that writing to politicians voices our concerns to the right people but I have a question.

*Do you think more could be done if a true grass roots effort of true cigar smokers gathering in public was done?* I know it is hard to get people organized to even make it to cigar events but *would getting permission meaning the correct permits and gathering in some sort of public form get more politicians attention?* Would we be looked upon as trouble makers?

*My Thought:* Now that we will have the largest community we will also have the largest amount of hard core smokers. I believe that we will have a very strong voice as long as we can organize it. Personally I have always felt that I wanted to pursue this sort of action in being a *Thorn in the Side* of the people making the smoking bans and if we can get organized enough I believe it could do some good.

Please do not take it that I want to march on every city, instead I want to gather with others in a effort that maximizes our energy. Then take a bit of action to get our voice heard.

p.s. If my wife reads this I promise not to get into too much trouble.


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## The EVP (Dec 21, 2007)

I think we would be looked as being a Thorn in the Side, but I'm perfectly fine with pissing off the people who try to tell me what to do!

P.S. - If my wife reads this: Please come and bail me out honey!


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## tekhnu (Jun 10, 2007)

Having been involved in similar demonstrations back in my activist days during the 80's I think it's a good idea. I know how hard it is to pull off. Sometimes the very hotels and eating places enforcing the smoking ban cash in when a lot of people come to town. You may also want to think of this: Work to not benefit the local economy other than tobacco. No hotels, demonstrate and leave. Don't even use the local public transportation, rent charter a bus. Bring your own food, water, Port-a-Potty and the like. Clean up everything then go home.

Public Demonstrations itself won't bring about change. They are designed to bring attention to an issue. Expect no more than that as an outcome. Once you get everyones attention you can put an action plan in place using those who step forward to bring about change.


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## tx_tuff (Jun 16, 2007)

I agree with Cliff on this, and wouldn't a great place to start be on the steps of the State Capital in Texas since they want to create a state ban (has been talked about before). Maybe we can get the Governor to smoke one with us!


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## happy1 (Jun 29, 2007)

Hell yes we need to be heard on this!!!Give'r hell Daniel


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## Cigary (Oct 19, 2007)

I believe there is power in numbers and there certainly is power when you protest in a way that makes others look at what you are trying to do. If you protest like a bunch of out of control school kids then you will be judged as such. However, if you protest in a way that gives you credibility as to what you are protesting then not only will you gain empathy but you will advance your message to many others, up to and including the press, TV, magazines, etc. That means you collectively get together peacefully, do not agitate others and be ready to have those people who are very articulate advance your message. The worse thing in the world is to have those who want to be loud and obnoxious as your spokespeople. The more professional you act the more you will be seen as people who are respectful and will be judged accordingly. My 2 cents on this.


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## Doogie (Oct 15, 2007)

I'm in,if someone wants to organize in NY. great idea Daniel


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## jitzy (Jan 7, 2007)

I think these are all great ideas however I really think you should first look at hooking up with the CRA and maybe even DOC Stogie fresh who is also working on an event in California. Now it seams there are a few different things going on we may be able to get some of the attention and respect we all deserve. Also maybe you and Jon could talk about and discuss this with the CRA if you are gonna do a pay section here maybe a CRA membership included in that would bennifit everyone. Just a thought.


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## Diana (Feb 13, 2007)

Cigary said:


> I believe there is power in numbers and there certainly is power when you protest in a way that makes others look at what you are trying to do. If you protest like a bunch of out of control school kids then you will be judged as such. However, if you protest in a way that gives you credibility as to what you are protesting then not only will you gain empathy but you will advance your message to many others, up to and including the press, TV, magazines, etc. That means you collectively get together peacefully, do not agitate others and be ready to have those people who are very articulate advance your message. The worse thing in the world is to have those who want to be loud and obnoxious as your spokespeople. The more professional you act the more you will be seen as people who are respectful and will be judged accordingly. My 2 cents on this.


Very well said Gary, I totally agree with your statement!


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## Damsel-cl (Feb 12, 2008)

Cigary said:


> I believe there is power in numbers and there certainly is power when you protest in a way that makes others look at what you are trying to do. If you protest like a bunch of out of control school kids then you will be judged as such. However, if you protest in a way that gives you credibility as to what you are protesting then not only will you gain empathy but you will advance your message to many others, up to and including the press, TV, magazines, etc. That means you collectively get together peacefully, do not agitate others and be ready to have those people who are very articulate advance your message. The worse thing in the world is to have those who want to be loud and obnoxious as your spokespeople. The more professional you act the more you will be seen as people who are respectful and will be judged accordingly. My 2 cents on this.


I agree....I think the collective we've seen formed here and with the other sites under the one, definitely works in our favor. I see the question as being, do we demonstrate or do we lobby behind the scenes, by joining in the efforts of the associations, such as CRA, The Cigar Association of America, and of course, The Association for Women Cigar Smokers? Do we form a board to handle the business of advancing our position with the associations? I think organization is the key to success, and by becoming the largest network speaks hugely to the importance and clout we will have. I say we stay away from any massive demonstrations, and take the position - Walk Softly but Carry a Big Stick....That's just my 2 cents.


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## tekhnu (Jun 10, 2007)

Cigary said:


> I believe there is power in numbers and there certainly is power when you protest in a way that makes others look at what you are trying to do. If you protest like a bunch of out of control school kids then you will be judged as such. However, if you protest in a way that gives you credibility as to what you are protesting then not only will you gain empathy but you will advance your message to many others, up to and including the press, TV, magazines, etc. That means you collectively get together peacefully, do not agitate others and be ready to have those people who are very articulate advance your message. The worse thing in the world is to have those who want to be loud and obnoxious as your spokespeople. The more professional you act the more you will be seen as people who are respectful and will be judged accordingly. My 2 cents on this.


Understood. The press has a way of finding the most inarticulate person in the crowd and putting their face in front of a movement. Controlling that is a challenge. Educating the members to a well defined agenda is a key component. Everyone has to be on the same page so that the message is the same no matter who has a mike shoved in their face.



jitzy said:


> I think these are all great ideas however I really think you should first look at hooking up with the CRA and maybe even DOC Stogie fresh who is also working on an event in California. Now it seams there are a few different things going on we may be able to get some of the attention and respect we all deserve. Also maybe you and Jon could talk about and discuss this with the CRA if you are gonna do a pay section here maybe a CRA membership included in that would bennifit everyone. Just a thought.


I agree. Collective alliance is always key in any movement. I don't believe in reinventing the wheel. There are existing organizations that have made progress already. We should join forces where it makes since and join the organization itself if need be. The main thing is to show that we are not just a single group out kicking up dust. Any and all like minded organizations moving to push a common cause not only increases your strength in numbers but also divides the effort resulting in less burden physically and financially on any one group.


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## goyankees (May 16, 2008)

I don't think it will work, its all about the "smoke related" illnesses and how it effects medicare funds... I mean look at all the money states make on tobacco yet they are looking to ban it.. 

I had a great conversation with a rep, I forget who... He took the time to explain to me how companies like Altadis and General are against the CRA. The way he explained it is they make so little money on cigars compared to other things the ban would not effect them. 

Even if SCHIPP passes and raises tobacco taxes 50% of the retail cost they will still want to ban smoking and pass up on all the tobacco taxes....

As many of you know I am trying to open a smoking lounge/store in the Bronx and what used to take 4 weeks to get licenses I am now hearing that it will take me 3 months to do so which will cause the state to lose out on revenue....

Smoking is this generations prohibition except it is global...


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## tekhnu (Jun 10, 2007)

nyisles said:


> I don't think it will work, its all about the "smoke related" illnesses and how it effects medicare funds... I mean look at all the money states make on tobacco yet they are looking to ban it..
> 
> I had a great conversation with a rep, I forget who... He took the time to explain to me how companies like Altadis and General are against the CRA. The way he explained it is they make so little money on cigars compared to other things the ban would not effect them.
> 
> ...


You make some valid points. My understanding is that there are no health issues with cigars when done in moderation. One of the key things in increasing the cigar smokers voice nationally and globally regarding cigars in general is to raise awareness to the methods in which cigars can be enjoyed safely and to highlight the difference from cigarettes. There is more to be gained from the relaxation relieving stress that outweighs the risk associated with cigars.

You take a much greater risk when you get behind the wheel in a car. Pro-safety advocates organized to make car driving less of a risk which forced the manufacturers build safer cars and drivers to drive more responsibly.

So, I totally disagree with your point. The idea put forth by Daniel can and will work. I think you are shooting it down before understanding the overall agenda.


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## Damsel-cl (Feb 12, 2008)

tekhnu said:


> You make some valid points. My understanding is that there are no health issues with cigars when done in moderation. One of the key things in increasing the cigar smokers voice nationally and globally regarding cigars in general is to raise awareness to the methods in which cigars can be enjoyed safely and to highlight the difference from cigarettes. There is more to be gained from the relaxation relieving stress that outweighs the risk associated with cigars.
> 
> You take a much greater risk when you get behind the wheel in a car. Pro-safety advocates organized to make car driving less of a risk which forced the manufacturers build safer cars and drivers to drive more responsibly.
> 
> So, I totally disagree with your point. The idea put forth by Daniel can and will work. I think you are shooting it down before understanding the overall agenda.


I agree with T...I think driving home the difference between cigarette smoking and cigars is key...In my view, we're being categorized under the dangers of cigarette smoking, and the taxation increase to all tobacco products... The challenge we're faced with is to clearly define the difference in cigar smoking. We must educate the public on our culture, our history, our community and the art of fine cigar smoking. I think showing that cigar smoking is more than "fiending" for the dangers of nicotine, should be part of a media campaign...we have to differentiate ourselves...

and yes, it can work...


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## Stogie (Feb 13, 2007)

tekhnu said:


> Having been involved in similar demonstrations back in my activist days during the 80's I think it's a good idea. I know how hard it is to pull off. Sometimes the very hotels and eating places enforcing the smoking ban cash in when a lot of people come to town. You may also want to think of this: Work to not benefit the local economy other than tobacco. No hotels, demonstrate and leave. Don't even use the local public transportation, rent charter a bus. Bring your own food, water, Port-a-Potty and the like. Clean up everything then go home.
> 
> Public Demonstrations itself won't bring about change. They are designed to bring attention to an issue. Expect no more than that as an outcome. Once you get everyones attention you can put an action plan in place using those who step forward to bring about change.


Awesome Bro thanks for the insight.


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## Stogie (Feb 13, 2007)

tx_tuff said:


> I agree with Cliff on this, and wouldn't a great place to start be on the steps of the State Capital in Texas since they want to create a state ban (has been talked about before). Maybe we can get the Governor to smoke one with us!


I am serious about this guys and I want to really think this all thru. Maybe we can create a meet up just to talk about this.


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## Stogie (Feb 13, 2007)

happy1 said:


> Hell yes we need to be heard on this!!!Give'r hell Daniel


I got nothing to loose and everything to gain as long as I have people that support me. I have never been scared and will not start now. I am getting pumped up.


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## Stogie (Feb 13, 2007)

Cigary said:


> I believe there is power in numbers and there certainly is power when you protest in a way that makes others look at what you are trying to do. If you protest like a bunch of out of control school kids then you will be judged as such. However, if you protest in a way that gives you credibility as to what you are protesting then not only will you gain empathy but you will advance your message to many others, up to and including the press, TV, magazines, etc. That means you collectively get together peacefully, do not agitate others and be ready to have those people who are very articulate advance your message. The worse thing in the world is to have those who want to be loud and obnoxious as your spokespeople. The more professional you act the more you will be seen as people who are respectful and will be judged accordingly. My 2 cents on this.


Yes I am a very calm person and that is why I really want to think thing thru.


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## Stogie (Feb 13, 2007)

jitzy said:


> I think these are all great ideas however I really think you should first look at hooking up with the CRA and maybe even DOC Stogie fresh who is also working on an event in California. Now it seams there are a few different things going on we may be able to get some of the attention and respect we all deserve. Also maybe you and Jon could talk about and discuss this with the CRA if you are gonna do a pay section here maybe a CRA membership included in that would bennifit everyone. Just a thought.


Very good idea I an very aware of the CRA but I also do not know if they would support something like this. I guess the only way to find out is to come up with a game plan and then present it to them.


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## Stogie (Feb 13, 2007)

Damsel said:


> I agree....I think the collective we've seen formed here and with the other sites under the one, definitely works in our favor. I see the question as being, do we demonstrate or do we lobby behind the scenes, by joining in the efforts of the associations, such as CRA, The Cigar Association of America, and of course, The Association for Women Cigar Smokers? Do we form a board to handle the business of advancing our position with the associations? I think organization is the key to success, and by becoming the largest network speaks hugely to the importance and clout we will have. I say we stay away from any massive demonstrations, and take the position - Walk Softly but Carry a Big Stick....That's just my 2 cents.


I believe lobbying is great but I think we need to be seen in some fashion but like said before we have to do it in the right way. We need to research everything in the state and be well withing the law and kick the stereotype some people may have of cigar smokers.


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## Stogie (Feb 13, 2007)

Damsel said:


> I agree with T...I think driving home the difference between cigarette smoking and cigars is key...In my view, we're being categorized under the dangers of cigarette smoking, and the taxation increase to all tobacco products... The challenge we're faced with is to clearly define the difference in cigar smoking. We must educate the public on our culture, our history, our community and the art of fine cigar smoking. I think showing that cigar smoking is more than "fiending" for the dangers of nicotine, should be part of a media campaign...we have to differentiate ourselves...
> 
> and yes, it can work...


We also need to remember something. When people protested years ago they did not use the technology we have today. We can use this as a bigger stick. Even some things as simple as a projector with a slide show or movie showing the difference between cigar smoking and cigarettes can be blasted on the the wall of a building. I am not saying do this but at least we need to try to use technology or think outside the box.


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## Cigary (Oct 19, 2007)

I applaud Daniel for stepping up not only as an Administrator but like all of us on here we are cigar advocates and love our hobby. The challenges we have ahead of us are being able to plan and advance our agenda while not stepping on the toes of those people who do not agree with our hobby and we know that there are a lot of people who lobby everyday against us. We need a strategy that employs new ideas that will mimic the alcohol industry in ways that they get their message out because we are aware that alcohol addiction and medical issues plague this industry just as much if not more than cigars. Yet, they are able to appeal to both sides of the argument and the industry is successful. The general public has to be educated in the area of what cigars are all about and why people smoke them, not to be portrayed as the snobs most non smoking cigar people think we are. Perception is reality in their eyes and we need to break that perception much like the alcohol industry does when advertising their product. When done in moderation it is a viable and popular hobby and in most cases the people who endulge this hobby are everday people who need to be seen as well adjusted, happy and more contented individuals. It is a relaxing hobby where people get together and enjoy each others company and is a catalyst for getting people together to enjoy life. These are things we need to promote rather than trying to defend cigars from a health point of view because we will lose that argument. Cigars along with other forms of entertainment have to weighed with the element of risk, just like alcohol, just like partaking in events in life that can be risky and we need to push that in regards to a hobby that we enjoy. Like it or not the anti smoking lobby is very powerful and their main argument is secondhand smoke and we need to be able to debate that argument successfully without provoking their sentiment. We need to make the battleground not about health but about choice in what we enjoy and to be respectful of those around us,,,a compromise of sorts because that is what it will end up being. The anti smoking lobby is beating us like a drum on health issues and that is why they are gaining on this initiative and states are banning smoking places which is absurd. That is like having a bar and banning alcohol. If we aren't smart about this on how we get the message out the rug will be pulled out long before we put the padding down. Last words on this is don't make the fight about health but rather about choice just like the other causes use. Good luck to all of us as this is going to be an uphill battle but the more we keep our eye on the ball and not look like angry self absorbed snobs the better off we will be. People need to see us as they themselves want to be seen,,,as people who wish to endulge in their hobby who don't wish to push their hobby into others lives. Remember, perception becomes reality and we need to make friends with other lobbying groups so that our agenda moves forward. We have some very astute and responsible members on our cigar sites who are very very articulate and we need to utilize these talents in the days and weeks to come. I think with Mr. Caputos clout in this industry it can be done in such a way that advances this message to the masses but in a way that promotes it successfully.


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## Diana (Feb 13, 2007)

Thanks Gary for your post! Daniel and I are actually reading what you have written. Well I am reading it aloud as Daniel edits videos. Makes alot of sense when we read it from your point of view. AWESOME!!!!!


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## jitzy (Jan 7, 2007)

Stogie said:


> Very good idea I an very aware of the CRA but I also do not know if they would support something like this. I guess the only way to find out is to come up with a game plan and then present it to them.


try talking to pete he's very active in the CRA


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## Damsel-cl (Feb 12, 2008)

Stogie said:


> We also need to remember something. When people protested years ago they did not use the technology we have today. We can use this as a bigger stick. Even some things as simple as a projector with a slide show or movie showing the difference between cigar smoking and cigarettes can be blasted on the the wall of a building. I am not saying do this but at least we need to try to use technology or think outside the box.


Absolutely, I think technology is the way to go! We can now reach far more people than ever before Daniel....among the internet strategies, you might consider an email campaign?

.....I think it may be wise, and I'm sure you and Jon are taking this point under consideration, would be to plan this just as you would any new venture...and one of your first tasks might be to craft the identity of the campaign....Maybe this is my chromosones talking but, I think if we show a much gentler side which reflects our rich history? here's another one of my corny mantras "you can catch more bees with honey than you can with vinegar"...I say that to say this... we have been portrayed as the big bad smoking goblin - anywhere from elitist to red neck, from confused women to vixen's of ****...sorry, u all know I've done my research...lol...we must get the true impression of who we all are out there...

btw...thanks Daniel for this thread!


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## Damsel-cl (Feb 12, 2008)

I totally agree with Gary's thoughts on this...we have to take the eyes away from the health issues, and bring more of a focus on the cultural and hobbyist side of cigar smoking...


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## Damsel-cl (Feb 12, 2008)

Diana said:


> Thanks Gary for your post! Daniel and I are actually reading what you have written. Well I am reading it aloud as Daniel edits videos. Makes alot of sense when we read it from your point of view. AWESOME!!!!!


Hi Diana!!! :bolt:


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## BigBuddha76 (Mar 15, 2005)

a herf on the national mall...I'll have a couple cigars when I'm up there for the "tents of hope"


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## ylo2na (Dec 11, 2007)

Cigary said:


> I applaud Daniel for stepping up not only as an Administrator but like all of us on here we are cigar advocates and love our hobby. The challenges we have ahead of us are being able to plan and advance our agenda while not stepping on the toes of those people who do not agree with our hobby and we know that there are a lot of people who lobby everyday against us. We need a strategy that employs new ideas that will mimic the alcohol industry in ways that they get their message out because we are aware that alcohol addiction and medical issues plague this industry just as much if not more than cigars. Yet, they are able to appeal to both sides of the argument and the industry is successful. The general public has to be educated in the area of what cigars are all about and why people smoke them, not to be portrayed as the snobs most non smoking cigar people think we are. Perception is reality in their eyes and we need to break that perception much like the alcohol industry does when advertising their product. When done in moderation it is a viable and popular hobby and in most cases the people who endulge this hobby are everday people who need to be seen as well adjusted, happy and more contented individuals. It is a relaxing hobby where people get together and enjoy each others company and is a catalyst for getting people together to enjoy life. These are things we need to promote rather than trying to defend cigars from a health point of view because we will lose that argument. Cigars along with other forms of entertainment have to weighed with the element of risk, just like alcohol, just like partaking in events in life that can be risky and we need to push that in regards to a hobby that we enjoy. Like it or not the anti smoking lobby is very powerful and their main argument is secondhand smoke and we need to be able to debate that argument successfully without provoking their sentiment. We need to make the battleground not about health but about choice in what we enjoy and to be respectful of those around us,,,a compromise of sorts because that is what it will end up being. The anti smoking lobby is beating us like a drum on health issues and that is why they are gaining on this initiative and states are banning smoking places which is absurd. That is like having a bar and banning alcohol. If we aren't smart about this on how we get the message out the rug will be pulled out long before we put the padding down. Last words on this is don't make the fight about health but rather about choice just like the other causes use. Good luck to all of us as this is going to be an uphill battle but the more we keep our eye on the ball and not look like angry self absorbed snobs the better off we will be. People need to see us as they themselves want to be seen,,,as people who wish to endulge in their hobby who don't wish to push their hobby into others lives. Remember, perception becomes reality and we need to make friends with other lobbying groups so that our agenda moves forward. We have some very astute and responsible members on our cigar sites who are very very articulate and we need to utilize these talents in the days and weeks to come. I think with Mr. Caputos clout in this industry it can be done in such a way that advances this message to the masses but in a way that promotes it successfully.


Gary,
Well said! I think when you take the message we are advocating out of the health arena and put it on the "choice" level, it is an easier sell in getting our message across in a more positive, acceptable manner. Also, perception is really reality and this is an excellent point. We need to keep this fact in the forefront regarding the planning and direction our group pursues. As a grassroots movement, we certainly have the numbers, knowledge and intellectual skill(s) to make a worthwhile effort in promoting our hobby. 
Let the planning begin....
Best,
ylo2na


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## happy1 (Jun 29, 2007)

Can we get a link to the CRA?


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## shroom91 (Mar 17, 2008)

WTG Daniel you got a good idea need to run with hopefully your might start some kind of movement


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## Damsel-cl (Feb 12, 2008)

shroom91 said:


> WTG Daniel you got a good idea need to run with hopefully your might start some kind of movement


once we get our "grass roots" growing...maybe those of us who have web sites, blogs, networks etc. could put a link on our sites in support of what we're doing and to get the word out...?


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## jam (Dec 29, 2007)

I am not to familiar with this but a petition might be good i mean we have alot of guys here to sign and jon has 3 other forums so we could be heard and not laughed at .


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## redraider2301 (Nov 29, 2008)

tx_tuff said:


> I agree with Cliff on this, and wouldn't a great place to start be on the steps of the State Capital in Texas since they want to create a state ban (has been talked about before). Maybe we can get the Governor to smoke one with us!


That's because its freaking austin! They shouldn't even be allowed to call them self Texas!


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## CBI (Feb 5, 2008)

Count me in. I'm all for standing up for my choices.


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