# How Cold is Too Cold



## Onlydominican

Hello all,

As you may or may not remember, I recently converted an old bathroom vanity into a humidor and I documented here. 

Now, I live in Connecticut and I have electric baseboard heating at home and we only heat up the house when we are home. So for most of the day, the house is pretty cold in the winter. Anticipating that this would make it tough to keep humidity high, I ended up getting a pound of 70 rh beads. They are doing their job just fine. 

My issue is the temperature inside the humidor, which fluctuates between 59 and 63 degrees. Is that too cold? I saw a chart indicating that to recreate a "70/70" environment, the humidity would have to be close to 100% for temperature at 60 degrees. How accurate is that? I mean, if the humidor is going to average 60 degree temperature, does the humitity really have to be that high?

I would appreciate input from those in colder climates and how you deal with humidity/temperature in the winter months. Just want to know if the temperature of 60 degrees is too cold. Thanks in advance.


----------



## Cigary

I think this is the table you're looking for as far as Temperature/Relative Humidity.









*Cold conditions will dry out and lead to the loss of oils (and thus flavor) in the cigar wrapper. Below a certain temperature, in the low to mid 60s, the cigar will dry out. However, collectors who want to age their cigars for a long time will often go a few degrees and percentage points lower to retard the aging process. This is okay as long as you don't go below the 66 +/- temperature degree and 67% +/- humidity range.* This according to 'experts'....I have stored my cigars where it gets in the low 60's and have 70% RH and they smoke fine.


----------



## TonyBrooklyn

As Gary has said anything around 60 should be fine.
Many store cigars in wineadors in the low 60's.eace:


----------



## JGD

And I still don;t understand this chart. Does it actually suggest keeping your cigars at 92 % when they are at 62 degrees? Cause that's night right...


----------



## Cigary

JGD said:


> And I still don;t understand this chart. Does it actually suggest keeping your cigars at 92 % when they are at 62 degrees? Cause that's night right...


LOL,,,I thought the same thing when I first read this about a year ago...the whole idea is to keep the proper RH inside your humidor/tupperware/containers. If the outside temperature is 62 and the inside of your humi is only70%RH...you're cigars are going to end up being pretty dry. Most people are not going to let their stock stay in that kind of temps unless you are doing long term aging. Most people keep their houses around 65-72 degrees in the winter so it's smart to keep your RH between 65 - 70. I don't know of anybody who would try and keep their stock at 62/92.


----------



## Onlydominican

Cigary said:


> LOL,,,I thought the same thing when I first read this about a year ago...the whole idea is to keep the proper RH inside your humidor/tupperware/containers. If the outside temperature is 62 and the inside of your humi is only70%RH...you're cigars are going to end up being pretty dry. Most people are not going to let their stock stay in that kind of temps unless you are doing long term aging. Most people keep their houses around 65-72 degrees in the winter so it's smart to keep your RH between 65 - 70. I don't know of anybody who would try and keep their stock at 62/92.


Believe me, my house is not that cold by choice. Having electric baseboard heat, it is cost prohibited to keep the heat on in the house while the wife and I are working. So during the day, the temp in the house during the winter is 57 to 59 degrees. When we get home, we turn on the heat and set it to 70. So the room where I am keeping the cigars is between 57 and 59 degrees most of the day, and then up to 65-70 during the night.


----------



## TonyBrooklyn

Onlydominican said:


> Believe me, my house is not that cold by choice. Having electric baseboard heat, it is cost prohibited to keep the heat on in the house while the wife and I are working. So during the day, the temp in the house during the winter is 57 to 59 degrees. When we get home, we turn on the heat and set it to 70. So the room where I am keeping the cigars is between 57 and 59 degrees most of the day, and then up to 65-70 during the night.


Get a wood stove that electric heat is a killer bro!


----------



## Johnny Rock

I really feel for all of you that live in the northern frozen wasteland. Just now my A/C can keep my house at ~ 76 degrees after a major tune up. I am also just now begining to think about filling my desktop humidor that is not controlled by a petlier unit with sticks that I plan on smoking over the next few months.

Smoking out on the back porch is now very cool...ummm, I might have to go put a long sleeve shirt on...LOL

Loving the winter in S. Florida for the next 5 or so months, I did have to buy a heater for my garage when it gets below 60 degrees...LOL


----------



## MoreBeer

I've seen that chart before....its friggin insane! A real good way for a noob to totally wreck his sticks if the lower temp - RH recommendations are followed.


----------



## smelvis

Pellet stove so fluctuating temps. Try to stay 68/72 but it's hard with our mild winters. I keep all but one humidor in the mid 60's and one close to 70


----------



## TonyBrooklyn

Johnny Rock said:


> I really feel for all of you that live in the northern frozen wasteland. Just now my A/C can keep my house at ~ 76 degrees after a major tune up. I am also just now begining to think about filling my desktop humidor that is not controlled by a petlier unit with sticks that I plan on smoking over the next few months.
> 
> Smoking out on the back porch is now very cool...ummm, I might have to go put a long sleeve shirt on...LOL
> 
> Loving the winter in S. Florida for the next 5 or so months, I did have to buy a heater for my garage when it gets below 60 degrees...LOL


I feel for you I lived in south Miami for 18 months when i got out of the corps! 
Yuck Sticky humid 90 plus temp the only months i enjoyed were December till about March.
The money you save on heat you spend in ten fold on A/C.
Now if you wanna talk about great climate talk the west coast dry
California moderate temps all year long.
Why do you think its the most populated state.It ain't cause of the economy that's for sure.
The Gold Rush died out years ago!eace:


----------



## Onlydominican

Seems that te consensus is not to take the chart to seriously???? When I saw it, I just couldn't believe that it calls for close 100rh when temperature is 60%. I think in my case, what I am going to do is try to keep the RH between 70 and 73%


----------



## Johnny Rock

TonyBrooklyn said:


> I feel for you I lived in south Miami for 18 months when i got out of the corps!
> Yuck Sticky humid 90 plus temp the only months i enjoyed were December till about March.
> The money you save on heat you spend in ten fold on A/C.
> Now if you wanna talk about great climate talk the west coast dry
> California moderate temps all year long.
> Why do you think its the most populated state.It ain't cause of the economy that's for sure.
> The Gold Rush died out years ago!eace:


Yup, the summer is definitely a challenge down here, but I am about 120 miles north of Miami, so we get an extra month or so of great weather here. I would trade our summer for your winter in a NY minute any day.

Too many "questionable" personality types on the Left Coast....


----------



## TonyBrooklyn

Johnny Rock said:


> Yup, the summer is definitely a challenge down here, but I am about 120 miles north of Miami, so we get an extra month or so of great weather here. I would trade our summer for your winter in a NY minute anyday.


GOD bless bro i would not if i am cold i put some clothes on or turn the heat up. When i am hot i could walk around naked and still sweat!


----------



## Johnny Rock

TonyBrooklyn said:


> GOD bless bro i would not if i am cold i put some clothes on or turn the heat up. When i am hot i could walk around naked and still sweat!


I hear you brother, I would defenitely not want you to get too hot...not ready for that :fear:


----------



## CraigJS

Sorry to be so blunt, but that chart looks like BS to me! In the summer time you try to keep your smokes at 65 degrees (aprox), 65-70 % humidity (give or take). Hell under that aprox. temp we should have our sticks at 80%, good luck with that... If I can keep my winter humidors at 63-67 % and aprox. 63-65 degrees I'll be a happy fishy, with GREAT smoking sticks. Sometimes I raise an eyebrow at all the "experts" polls, graphs, and charts. Are they serious??
:frusty:


----------



## maxwell62

Seems time to get some sane advice.
Herf and Turf, where is you?
Help, the temps are plunging and cigar are at risk here on the East coast.


----------



## TonyBrooklyn

Here ya go try Google!

"For decades, the idea of compensating low temperatures with more humidity has been discussed and debated thousands of times among cigar smokers. I think ASC best answers this in their FAQ:

From ASC's Cigar FAQ:

"Many self-proclaimed "authorities" have been making a serious mistake of confusing moisture content with relative humidity lately. At least one well-known Cigar distributor has added strength to this legend by distributing a table recommending different relative humidities at different temperatures. Don't fall for this "urban legend"! Cigars should be kept at 70% RH REGARDLESS of temperature or you WILL ruin them... 

The modern myth of varying humidity with temperature is based on an entirely false premise. Cigars don't care about absolute moisture content. They need just enough moisture to keep the tobacco pliable, but not so much to swell it. This occurs at 70-73% REGARDLESS of temperature. 

Tobacco should be kept at a relative humidity which just keeps the leaves pliable without swelling them. Since that pliability is based on the interaction of the cellular membranes with the air surrounding them, *relative humidity*, not absolute moisture content is what's important. This isn't chemistry, it's mechanics - on a cellular level. Ideally, the correct point is 70-73% regardless of temperature. At 70% relative humidity (a measure which by definition is independent of temperature) cigar leaves become pliable without swelling. at 75% or higher, the cells begin to swell. at 68% or lower, they can become brittle. These points are regardless of the ambient temperature or the absolute moisture content. 

Does it make any sense to a rational person to keep their cigars at close to 100% humidity at 60 degrees? Anyone living in cold climates can attest to the fact that at 60 deg, their cigars are perfect at 70%, and (as they would at any temperature) their cigars are prone to mold and swelling at humidities above 80%. Those living in the tropics will tell you the same thing - their cigars MUST be kept at 70% humidity at storage temperatures of 80 degrees. According to "the table", those cigars should be at 50% humidity? I'll tell you what... If the humidity drops below 68%, your cigars will become dry and crack - I couldn't even imagine how badly dried out they'd be at 50%! 

Try it yourself. The "logic" of varying RH with temp falls apart in the real world."

While the theory of compensating temperature with humidity sounds plausible (even I was taught this when I first started smoking cigars), I believe ASC's explanation is correct. Unfortunately, this issue is still on-going with many cigar smokers. (Perhaps the folks at Mythbusters can settle this for us?)"oke:oke:oke:oke:oke:


----------



## Onlydominican

TonyBrooklyn said:


> Here ya go try Google!
> 
> "For decades, the idea of compensating low temperatures with more humidity has been discussed and debated thousands of times among cigar smokers. I think ASC best answers this in their FAQ:
> 
> From ASC's Cigar FAQ:
> 
> "Many self-proclaimed "authorities" have been making a serious mistake of confusing moisture content with relative humidity lately. At least one well-known Cigar distributor has added strength to this legend by distributing a table recommending different relative humidities at different temperatures. Don't fall for this "urban legend"! Cigars should be kept at 70% RH REGARDLESS of temperature or you WILL ruin them...
> 
> The modern myth of varying humidity with temperature is based on an entirely false premise. Cigars don't care about absolute moisture content. They need just enough moisture to keep the tobacco pliable, but not so much to swell it. This occurs at 70-73% REGARDLESS of temperature.
> 
> Tobacco should be kept at a relative humidity which just keeps the leaves pliable without swelling them. Since that pliability is based on the interaction of the cellular membranes with the air surrounding them, *relative humidity*, not absolute moisture content is what's important. This isn't chemistry, it's mechanics - on a cellular level. Ideally, the correct point is 70-73% regardless of temperature. At 70% relative humidity (a measure which by definition is independent of temperature) cigar leaves become pliable without swelling. at 75% or higher, the cells begin to swell. at 68% or lower, they can become brittle. These points are regardless of the ambient temperature or the absolute moisture content.
> 
> Does it make any sense to a rational person to keep their cigars at close to 100% humidity at 60 degrees? Anyone living in cold climates can attest to the fact that at 60 deg, their cigars are perfect at 70%, and (as they would at any temperature) their cigars are prone to mold and swelling at humidities above 80%. Those living in the tropics will tell you the same thing - their cigars MUST be kept at 70% humidity at storage temperatures of 80 degrees. According to "the table", those cigars should be at 50% humidity? I'll tell you what... If the humidity drops below 68%, your cigars will become dry and crack - I couldn't even imagine how badly dried out they'd be at 50%!
> 
> Try it yourself. The "logic" of varying RH with temp falls apart in the real world."
> 
> While the theory of compensating temperature with humidity sounds plausible (even I was taught this when I first started smoking cigars), I believe ASC's explanation is correct. Unfortunately, this issue is still on-going with many cigar smokers. (Perhaps the folks at Mythbusters can settle this for us?)"oke:oke:oke:oke:oke:


I think we have a WINNER !!!! This makes sense. I could not get my head around keeping cigars at 90% RH as the table calls for !! It just does not make sense. But the above explanation does !!!


----------



## TonyBrooklyn

:wink::wink::wink::wink::wink:

opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:

:lever::lever::lever:


----------



## CraigJS

I guess my smokes ALL have brittle cells then. Even if I can't see it from the outside or tell it when I cut or punch them. Sorry but I LIKE 63-65% smokes.. Of course I'm NOT an expert and YMMV.:fear:


----------



## asmartbull

a buddy of mine is in the same situation...
He keeps his cooler in a closet and places a small radiant
heater with thermostat inside......works like a charm


----------



## asmartbull

I, KISS.......the 130 rule

Winter, 65*/65 RH

Summer, 70*/60 RH

That is CC and NC

No more charts for me.......


----------



## Onlydominican

asmartbull said:


> I, KISS.......the 130 rule
> 
> Winter, 65*/65 RH
> 
> Summer, 70*/60 RH
> 
> That is CC and NC
> 
> No more charts for me.......


I am big believer of SIMPLE is best !!


----------



## Herf N Turf

maxwell62 said:


> Seems time to get some sane advice.
> Herf and Turf, where is you?
> Help, the temps are plunging and cigar are at risk here on the East coast.


Right here and Tonybrooklyn's quotation is pretty right on, if wordy.

Those tables have been popping up for years. They're absolute crap! The amount of moisture in the air, when your thermometer reads X or Y, is the same! I rather disagree with the poster, regarding his assertion that anything <70% produces brittleness on a cellular level. Granted, the cells will become more rigid (hello, less moisture), but not brittle to the point of catastrophic failure, as he implies. That point doesn't really occur until we start seeing levels of <55%.

For the OP:

Your low temp isn't going to hurt you, it's the swings! As your temp rises rapidly, the cigars will absorb moisture more quickly. As they drop, they will lose it. When water leaves, it takes some oils with it. So, over time, your cigars are losing essential oils and therefore, FLAVOR!

You really need to effort to keep the temperature more constant. Avoid rapid swings of >5*.

Heavy, thick, wooden humidors and coolers provide a lot of needed insulation, which will mitigate the damage, by slowing the temperature gradient. Glass tops, tupperdors, etc, nay-nay.


----------



## QiCultivator

This is interesting...I have been keeping my cigars in a partial-glass-top wooden humidor and I am not sure what the humidity is in there. I have a decent number of 65% humidity beads that I put in there a little over a month ago. My analog hygro on the front has risen from mid-30s to mid-50s over the past month plus. I'm not sure if it is actually 56 or what but I know it has risen considerably since I put the beads in. 

We have central gas heating and turn it down to 60 at night and when we are out during the day and leave it around 70 when we are home for more than an hour at a time...I suppose we should reconsider this? Maybe only go as low as 65 to avoid the huge swings?


----------



## HWiebe

I always thought Relative Humidity meant relative to the temperature. So as long as your hygro reads 65% to 70% in ANY temperature you are perfect? Am I wrong?


----------



## asmartbull

HWiebe said:


> I always thought Relative Humidity meant relative to the temperature. So as long as your hygro reads 65% to 70% in ANY temperature you are perfect? Am I wrong?


 you are correct,,,but it gets to splitting hairs,,,,,
fact is there will be more moisture in cigar
if it is stored at 70*/65RH then 60*/65 RH.
But we are still in the 130-140 rule....they will be fine

Looking at hydrometers that I have in my house...
Outside temp 20*/ 80 RH.....Inside 70*/ 50RH
Inside my house is it is more humid than outside


----------



## SanchoAnchovy

Hmm. I'm trying to get some cigars back to life after an arduous 2-week trip down the coast in summer temperatures. They're sitting at around 67% RH. Does that mean they're actually drying out?


----------



## jasondebly

I am in Canada, north of Maine (to be specific) and in the winter my humidor temperature is 63 degrees. Is this temperature ok? i could bring it up to 73 degrees by leaving a light on in the tiny room where I store the humidors. 

Which is better? Humidor temperature of 63 degrees or 73?


----------



## tmoran

You will not have any problems at 63 degrees. That chart posted is a little misleading, or maybe it's just misunderstood. The chart represents relative humidity change if you change the temperature but absolute humidity stays the same.


----------



## jasondebly

tmoran said:


> You will not have any problems at 63 degrees. That chart posted is a little misleading, or maybe it's just misunderstood. The chart represents relative humidity change if you change the temperature but absolute humidity stays the same.


Thanks! I can maintain RH at 70% year round. Just was struggling with the temperature. Winters are 63 degrees and summer gradually drift up to and stay at 72 or 73.


----------



## Gunther7912

Wow thread from the dead here  nonetheless there is great information and it was able to answer this same question for me. The room my sticks live in is pretty much always 62-65 degrees and I was curious if that was going to harm my cigars.


----------



## Herf N Turf

As I said above, 4 years above... lol, is it's the swings that will kill you. As long as you're staying roughly close to @asmartbull 's 130 rule, and keeping the temp changes as SLOW as possible, you'll be fine. What tobacco cannot tolerate is going from a warm and moist to cold and dry.

Think about your own body, for example. This time of year, everyone's skin begins cracking and everyone gets constipated. Why? Because our bodies have gotten used to a certain temp and a certain humidity. When that certain temp and humidity plummet, our bodies can't respond quickly enough and go into crisis. Wanna make a lot of money? Invest in laxatives and hand lotion in August and sell in December.


----------



## smokeem

Cigary said:


> I think this is the table you're looking for as far as Temperature/Relative Humidity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Cold conditions will dry out and lead to the loss of oils (and thus flavor) in the cigar wrapper. Below a certain temperature, in the low to mid 60s, the cigar will dry out. However, collectors who want to age their cigars for a long time will often go a few degrees and percentage points lower to retard the aging process. This is okay as long as you don't go below the 66 +/- temperature degree and 67% +/- humidity range.* This according to 'experts'....I have stored my cigars where it gets in the low 60's and have 70% RH and they smoke fine.


Sorry to bump old thread, but why does everyone say 65/65 if the chart above shows different numbers?


----------



## bpegler

smokeem said:


> Sorry to bump old thread, but why does everyone say 65/65 if the chart above shows different numbers?


Everyone doesn't say 65/65, but if you're buying aged cigars on the secondary market, that's where most have been stored.

I prefer slightly lower RH (62%), but that's for Havanas. I don't personally know of any serious collectors who keep their cigars at 70% RH. I'm talking about the guys with at least a few thousand sticks. Some with tens of thousands. There are probably some out there, but I don't know them.

I'm aware that many cigar shops keep their humidity at 70%, but they have to deal with the door opening and closing all day. And they're selling, not storing for aging.

Of course, you can keep your cigars however you like.


----------



## TonyBrooklyn

bpegler said:


> Everyone doesn't say 65/65, but if you're buying aged cigars on the secondary market, that's where most have been stored.
> 
> I prefer slightly lower RH (62%), but that's for Havanas. I don't personally know of any serious collectors who keep their cigars at 70% RH. I'm talking about the guys with at least a few thousand sticks. Some with tens of thousands. There are probably some out there, but I don't know them.
> 
> I'm aware that many cigar shops keep their humidity at 70%, but they have to deal with the door opening and closing all day. And they're selling, not storing for aging.
> 
> Of course, you can keep your cigars however you like.


X2!:vs_cool:


----------

