# Inside a Liga Privada T52



## grapplefu (Jan 16, 2011)

I was having an incredibly tight draw on one of my T52s, wasn't worth struggling with it so I decided to cut it open.

Didn't know there was so much cut filler in these









Quite large stems too


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## lasix (Mar 25, 2012)

Ouch that sucks big time.


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## chris1360 (Mar 15, 2012)

Stems, and short filler...... WTF??????? This is the Liga Privada that everyone is so nuts over and are willing to give up their first born child as payment for boxes?????
I haven't smoked one yet, so I guess my point is invalid.


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## Packerjh (Nov 29, 2009)

Hmmm...maybe Jonathan Drew should see those pics...


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## AStateJB (Oct 13, 2011)

Packerjh said:


> Hmmm...maybe Jonathan Drew should see those pics...


Kinda what I was thinking... Looks like a quality control issue that should definitely be addressed. Sorry for your loss.


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## socalocmatt (Dec 22, 2010)

Hopefully this is the exception and not the rule.

Eithet way, I still like the LP's flavor.


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## jphank (Apr 29, 2012)

Yeah, I'd send in that photo... Sorry you had a crappy stick.


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## BMack (Dec 8, 2010)

I sent JD a link to this thread for you, hopefully he'll chime in for us.


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## bazookajoe8 (Apr 6, 2012)

hopefully that was just an isolated issue. im smoking a T52 right now and no problems


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## nikonnut (Dec 4, 2011)

Keane,
Very interesting. I have had 2 or 3 LP No.9s that had something resembling a stick lodged in the middle of them also. Now I still love them regardless (smoking a toro right now) but that is unsettling. Stupid question but was that T-52 a robusto per chance?


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## Desertlifter (Feb 22, 2011)

jphank said:


> Yeah, I'd send in that photo... Sorry you had a crappy stick.


+1 on the photo sending thingy. Really can't imagine Drew not taking care of this - he has always seemed to be a solid guy.


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## DarrelMorris (Feb 7, 2012)

It would be interesting tohear the explanation for this. It's fine if they normally contain some cut tobacco as part of the filler because they taste great. They should tell us if that's the case though rather than let us think that is all long leaf.


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## Packerjh (Nov 29, 2009)

That is my issue...if I want short or mixed filler then I'll save the coin and buy just that...not spend premium money on what is supposedly a premium stick. I personally think (hope) this is an anomaly and not the standard! For what it's worth, I like most everything DE puts out!


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## StogieNinja (Jul 29, 2009)

Anyone else wanna cut theirs open to compare?


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## smelvis (Sep 7, 2009)

I have a new box of 9's coming and a box or two of them an t-52's here I am tempted the box of 9's cost closer to $300 than $250 and if any are short filler and stems I would be unhappy. I will watch this thread and think about donating one to open up!


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## nikonnut (Dec 4, 2011)

If I fire one up and it shows the twig I was speaking of I'll sacrifice it!


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## Kindanutz (Jan 31, 2012)

I bought a fiver of T52 robustos and i smoked two of them... not only did i not like the flavor profile but i had pretty bad draw issues as well... ive had them sitting for about 6 months now so hopefully they will do better this time around... Im definitly a No. 9 fanatic... I love getting into the meat of a No. 9 toro, it's like a nice porterhouse steak... yummmm!


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## oneshot44 (May 26, 2012)

OMG i want some of these BABYS


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## ryanbish (May 3, 2012)

I have one of these sitting on death-row in my humi-jar right now. Hoping it smokes as well as most people have said it will. If I have the same issues with draw and flavor, I might cut 'er open and take a peek as well.


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## grapplefu (Jan 16, 2011)

nikonnut said:


> Keane,
> Very interesting. I have had 2 or 3 LP No.9s that had something resembling a stick lodged in the middle of them also. Now I still love them regardless (smoking a toro right now) but that is unsettling. Stupid question but was that T-52 a robusto per chance?


It was a toro. I've had minor draw problems on all sizes before, just not as bad as this one. Just smoked a No9 last night and it was perfect.


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## nikonnut (Dec 4, 2011)

grapplefu said:


> It was a toro. I've had minor draw problems on all sizes before, just not as bad as this one. Just smoked a No9 last night and it was perfect.


Cool. I was just curious as I was thinking maybe the robustos are a bit more rushed being a popular vitola. The toro has become my favourite No.9 hands down! They're just so tasty!


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## Cigar Noob (May 22, 2011)

The guy to send the pic to is Steve Saka, he posts here on occasion, especially when DE quality issues are being discussed. Tar can be an issue with their sticks, but there is no explanation for short fill if that is what we are looking at. Could it have been super dry, and not taken care of at some point of its life to cause the leaves to crumple inside? Would hate to see such a respected brand cutting corners if that is in fact short fill.


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## oneshot44 (May 26, 2012)

I'm having a hard time finding a cigar site that has any in stock all are back order


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## grapplefu (Jan 16, 2011)

Cigar Noob said:


> Could it have been super dry, and not taken care of at some point of its life to cause the leaves to crumple inside?


I guess it could be possible. But this one was from the Feb 2012 shipment from a very reputable retailer. Stored in my wineador at 68/66
I'm tempted to cut another one open just to see if its the same.


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## StogieNinja (Jul 29, 2009)

Do it!!! I'd like to know, especially if it's from the same batch.


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## nikonnut (Dec 4, 2011)

Aninjaforallseasons said:


> Do it!!! I'd like to know, especially if it's from the same batch.


I've almost convinced myself to get an exacto knife and peek inside a No.9.


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## nikonnut (Dec 4, 2011)

Alright guys, so my curiosity way piqued and thanks to a few beers I was feeling brave so I dissected a No.9 robusto. The wineador is sitting at 63%/66F if that matters so on to the blood and guts!

Here's the victim;









Cut the cap off;









sliced the wrapper off and started to unroll the guts;









Here's the very center of the stick;









So there you go! What does it mean? I have no idea but I'm hoping the wiser smokers can gather some info from this little en devour. Am I nuts? Well. duh! but I was curious so... Have at it gentlemen!


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## grapplefu (Jan 16, 2011)

That is awesome. If I get another one with a super tight draw, I'll cut it open. I'm not ready to sacrifice another $10 yet lol


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## ryanbish (May 3, 2012)

Looks like you have some pretty decent pipe tobacco on your hands now Christopher!


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## nikonnut (Dec 4, 2011)

ryanbish said:


> Looks like you have some pretty decent pipe tobacco on your hands now Christopher!


I was thinking exactly the same thing! And the whole room smells like Liga Privada now :lol:


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## sum12nv (Aug 22, 2011)

Man thats disappointing to see. I hope thats just a isolated problem. Just had my first T52 tonight and it was a pretty good smoke, no issues here


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## Jay106n (Nov 3, 2011)

nikonnut said:


> Alright guys, so my curiosity way piqued and thanks to a few beers I was feeling brave so I dissected a No.9 robusto. The wineador is sitting at 63%/66F if that matters so on to the blood and guts!
> 
> Here's the victim;
> 
> ...


Moment of silence for the sacrificed LP9  hopefully you have a pipe so all that doesn't go to waste


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## Cigar Noob (May 22, 2011)

since I know nothing about what a dissected cigar should look like.... is the most recent one a good or bad thing?


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## StogieNinja (Jul 29, 2009)

It looks good. I'd almost think someone swapped a band on the OP!


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## Engineer99 (Aug 4, 2011)

This looks bad. The innards of a long filler cigar of that pedigree should not look like any of the pictures in this post. I don't even know where to go from here.....


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## waylman (Aug 15, 2011)

Here's what a Partagas Series D #4 looks like for comparison sake:


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## joshbhs04 (May 30, 2011)

Interested to see what the drew people say about this....


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## StogieNinja (Jul 29, 2009)

Aninjaforallseasons said:


> It looks good.





Engineer99 said:


> This looks bad. The innards of a long filler cigar of that pedigree should not look like any of the pictures in this post. I don't even know where to go from here.....


And that, ladies and gentlemen, sums up how much I know!!! :smoke:


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## KaChong (Jan 1, 2012)

waylman said:


> Here's what a Partagas Series D #4 looks like for comparison sake:
> 
> View attachment 38518


Did you take that picture waylman?

I think if Jay's #9 was overhumidified to 70% it might come apart a lot more gracefully. I note that at 63% there's a bit of a crunch when I squeeze a cigar. In that condition I don't think a cigar would come apart without it's filler fragmenting.

Besides the point, I usually find myself enjoying the #9 line. Unless I learned it was loaded with chopped fiberglass and cadmium laced asbestos, I'd probably still like the taste. I'd be damn impressed too. Asbestos is extremely difficult to burn consistently.


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## exprime8 (May 16, 2011)

That Partagas is cleaner because cuban cigars use the untubar method (rolled up in tubes) as non cubans just bunch up the leafs (more of an S shape). I have opened quite a few smokes and that #9 (the 2nd one) looks a lot like the ones Ive opened- except for the Opus Xs those are entubar! Its much more slower to make an entubar cigar because you have to roll up every single leaf. The 1st cigar does not look good at all!!!


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## Engineer99 (Aug 4, 2011)

KaChong said:


> Did you take that picture waylman?
> 
> I think if Jay's #9 was overhumidified to 70% it might come apart a lot more gracefully. I note that at 63% there's a bit of a crunch when I squeeze a cigar. In that condition I don't think a cigar would come apart without it's filler fragmenting.


Maybe a stunt cigar and some CGI from Industrial Light & Magic was involved.:crazy:

I would expect the guts of a high end cigar like a T52 to look more like the PSD4 above than the trainwreck in the previous dissections.

Derek, c'mon man... you've probably forgotten more about cigars than I'll ever know.:rapture:


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## rpb16 (Jan 4, 2012)

nikonnut said:


> Here's the very center of the stick;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ive cut open 1 dollar victor sinclairs that looked better than this

juss saiyan.....


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## Phil from Chicago (May 6, 2012)

Hoping the guy from DE chimes in here.. For all we know there was a bad batch that got thru recently


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## waylman (Aug 15, 2011)

Yeah, I took that pic.


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## StogieNinja (Jul 29, 2009)

Engineer99 said:


> Derek, c'mon man... you've probably forgotten more about cigars than I'll ever know.:rapture:


That's probably true, I read a lot. Problem is, I forget a lot, so I've probably forgotten more about cigars than I know _right now_. Which means we're probably in the same boat, knowledge-wise!

:smoke:

Now, I don't want to be the blinded DE fanboy, and the OPs pic definitely looks unusual.

But, that being said, the OP seems like a one-off, nikonnut's LP9 looks fine to me.

The difference between the PSD4 and the LP9 could be a number of things, including the condition and humidity of the cigar being dissected, and _especially_ the method and care with which the dissection was done.

My assumption is that waylman proceeded by unwrapping it layer by layer, and did it very carefully to preserve the condition of the tobacco as much as possible, whereas I'm assuming nikonnut started by cutting straight down the side and prying it apart. (Let me know if I'm wrong on that?) That'll cause a lot of differences, including a _lot _more flaking and crumbling during the dissection.

Secondly, as was already pointed out, the untubar method results in a much cleaner roll, so a lot of what we're seeing is just scrunched up leaves, which isn't unusual, it just looks "worse."

It really does look normal to me, and Jose already opined that it looks normal to him as well. Ryan, I'm going to assume the VSs you cut open weren't rolled with nearly as much care or nearly as tightly, and were probably overly humidified from the vendor, both of which would also result in a much cleaner dissection.

What we're looking for is short filler, or low-quality tobacco. Judging by the taste of every LP i've ever smoked, the quality is high, and judging by the picture of the LP9 at least, it looks pretty good, IMHO.

(Again, this is _just _my opinion, and may not be accurate at all. FOGs, please feel free to correct me!)


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## zephead61 (Apr 18, 2012)

Wow Keane, you really opened up a can of worms! (I mean a cigar!) I hope DE sees this. Great job!op2:


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## zephead61 (Apr 18, 2012)

Whoa! Double post!:der:


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## rpb16 (Jan 4, 2012)

Aninjaforallseasons said:


> It really does look normal to me, and Jose already opined that it looks normal to him as well. Ryan, I'm going to assume the VSs you cut open weren't rolled with nearly as much care or nearly as tightly, and were probably overly humidified from the vendor, both of which would also result in a much cleaner dissection.


Nah I actually left it out on the dresser and it got lost in clutter and dried out. I hated them anyway so i just ripped it open with my fingers.

BUT, this, IMO, shouldnt discourage people from DE LPs. I have never tried one, but still plan to when my wallet cools down, regardless of this thread. I think DE should have said something about this tho, but they say 2 is a coincidence and 3 is a pattern. So we mustnt jump to any conclusions just yet.


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## Drkknght145 (Apr 22, 2012)

I had a T52 that i messed up on accident, fell off my bench and i tried to catch it and mangled it with my meat paws. The inside looked more like the first picture, smaller pieces and not long tobacco. I will take pictures of it tonight, but it looked like it had a big stem going straight through the middle.


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## JayD (Jul 19, 2011)

Liga is my all time favorite smoke. I actually had a 52 Toro that had a similar stem in it. I would not let this detract from my smoking in the least. It is a man made product and these things happen.


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## grapplefu (Jan 16, 2011)

zephead61 said:


> Wow Keane, you really opened up a can of worms! (I mean a cigar!) I hope DE sees this. Great job!op2:


I didn't mean for the post to be bashing DE. I just wanted to post my observation since the cut filler and stems were quite a surprise to me. I still smoke and will continue to buy Liga products.


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## StogieNinja (Jul 29, 2009)

grapplefu said:


> I didn't mean for the post to be bashing DE. I just wanted to post my observation since the cut filler and stems were quite a surprise to me. I still smoke and will continue to buy Liga products.


I'm glad you did, I think seeing the stems and short filler was surprising to all of us. I'm looking forward to hearing what DE says about it, as they've always given pretty straightforward, honest answers in the past.

If all they say is "Hey, this is how we make some of the best cigars you've ever had, if you don't like them, we'll smoke them ourselves", I'd still buy 'em. Because they smoke well, and taste great!


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## jswaykos (Oct 26, 2010)

I have a feeling there's a whole lot more short filler out there in our beloved, higher end super premiums that we think.


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## nikonnut (Dec 4, 2011)

Hey guys,
I think I should out line my dissection process to eliminate as much mis-understanding as possible. So, after cutting the cap off I took a x-acto knife and scored the wrapper and pealed it off. Then I plunged almost the center and cut the length of the cigar. I then pealed it open as seen and extracted the "core" which acted like it was almost glued together and very solid. I tried to un-roll the center but it wasn't having it hence the explosion-ish appearance. I was actually very pleased with the construction and if I were do it again I would probably try and steam it somehow to ease the deconstruction process.


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## szyzk (Nov 27, 2010)

Keane's photo looks surprisingly like short filler to me, although I can't say for certain without seeing it in person. It would have had to be really mangled during deconstruction (or insanely dry - to the point that the rest of the cigar would be falling apart) for true long-filler to end up in such poor shape, especially when it looks like the binder is intact.

If short filler is getting into these cigars, I would need to seriously question the "long filler" advertisements, the time spent aging the cigars and the idea that only the best rollers in the factory are being used to produce these.

I'll hold on passing judgement, though, until word comes down from DE.


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## E Dogg (Mar 23, 2011)

I don't think it's necessarily "short filler" as sometimes it's just the way cigars are rolled. They take the long fillers and break them to fit into the roll....

I may be wrong, but I don't think so....






To me, "short" or "medium" or "mixed" filler cigars are ones that take the leftovers and use them in other products. What we may have here is all long filler that was just broken to make the stick uniform.

Come on JD, tell me I'm right!!! :smoke:


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## E Dogg (Mar 23, 2011)

Check it out at 3 : 20


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## Cigar Noob (May 22, 2011)

Didn't watch the video but is there a reasonable explanation for the stems everyone has talked about in the DEfanboy handbook you have over there? Is that for extra twang?


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## E Dogg (Mar 23, 2011)

Ooooohhhh I'm on a roll!!!


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## szyzk (Nov 27, 2010)

E Dogg said:


> Ooooohhhh I'm on a roll!!!


The Liga photo Keane provided us with shows what look to be small scraps of tobacco (granted, they're surrounded by longer strips of tobacco and a binder) which look exactly like the short-filler in your video. Obviously the whole Liga isn't short-filler, but even a small amount to me seems unacceptable in a $12 cigar.


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## nikonnut (Dec 4, 2011)

Eric,
That last video actually puts my mind at ease about the No.9 I cut open. Thanks for posting!


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## KaChong (Jan 1, 2012)

Maybe having a little short filler gives them a freedom in blending that isn't implementable with no short filler. Some dashes of short filler of particular tobacco's might lend the nice mix of flavors we like in the LP line of sticks.


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## DarrelMorris (Feb 7, 2012)

Thanks EDog. Those videos were very informative.


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## zephead61 (Apr 18, 2012)

Please understand that I, in no way, interpreted this as bashing Liga. I love the cigar as well and will continue to smoke them. 
I just noticed how many responses you had in the short time you posted this thread and it appeared that many were quite surprised at what you found. 
If I expressed this in the wrong way, please accept my apologies! Again, great job Keane!


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## Malcontent (Mar 22, 2012)

A very educational topic here. I love the videos.


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## abhoe (Feb 29, 2012)

Can anyone comment on the, what I believe is called, Lazy entubar method and the ramifications it would have on the construction of these cigars?


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## Jay106n (Nov 3, 2011)

KaChong said:


> Maybe having a little short filler gives them a freedom in blending that isn't implementable with no short filler. Some dashes of short filler of particular tobacco's might lend the nice mix of flavors we like in the LP line of sticks.


That's what I was thinking. A little bit of a different leave might give a variation or complexity in the flavors.

Great videos!


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## szyzk (Nov 27, 2010)

abhoe said:


> Can anyone comment on the, what I believe is called, Lazy entubar method and the ramifications it would have on the construction of these cigars?


Entubado bunching means that each individual filler leaf is rolled around itself, then it's placed with other rolls to comprise the filler. The DE method is rolling very loose entubado-style tubes, then folding those into a "sandwich" of filler leaf. They do cut the tips of the bunch and use the tips to fill out any soft spots as necessary, but I was always under the impression that they were using bigger strips to do that - not what looks like, to me at least, scraps.


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## zephead61 (Apr 18, 2012)

E Dogg said:


> Check it out at 3 : 20


That man can roll a spleef!


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## E Dogg (Mar 23, 2011)

*Cigar Bunching on Liga Privada cigars at Drew Estate uses a hybrid Entubado technique which they have named "Estrujado"*

Okay, so now we have it. It's all long filler guys, just the tips broken and placed inside for :dunno: uniformity? :dunno: or whatever


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## szyzk (Nov 27, 2010)

E Dogg said:


> Okay, so now we have it. It's all long filler guys...


As I mentioned above, they do cut the tips from the filler and use it to backfill any soft spots, but when the tips are cut so fine that it looks like cigarette tobacco, to me it's no longer truly "long filler"...

To me there's a difference between periodically using a 2" scrap cut from long filler to bulk up a section of the cigar and instead using a significant amount of tiny flecks of tobacco from foot to head.


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## ssaka (Oct 28, 2007)

Hey All,

Am in transit today - traveling from Nica through Mami to Boston - actually in airport now and gotta board in about 15 minutes.

So got little time and I am replying on an iPad - not great for as detailed reply as this thread requires, so this is the uberquick answer and I will read the whole thread and write a detailed one tomorrow...

First off, a tight T52 is unacceptable - will replace - we stand 100% behind the quality of all LPs.

Second, there should be stems/ribs in all good cigars if the tobacco is frogstripped correctly - I will go in to detail tomorrow.

Third, I would be pissed off if there WEREN'T those broke pieces of tobacco in the bunch! Those are the snapped tips and sometimes ribs from the same long filler and are critical to the blend and the construction of any hand bunched premium cigar. The process is called backfilling and oddly enough it is one of the key indicators that a cigar was not only not made on a lieberman, but that it was made properly by hand!

The reason most folks don't know this is because almost every book and magazine article ever written on the topic have been written by people who don't actually know anything about making cigars or tobacco other than what they have been told or read elsewhere.

So please do me favor and afford me the chance to write a real reply tomorrow AM before you burn us at the stake.

Thanks!

Steve Saka
President, Drew Estate


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## socalocmatt (Dec 22, 2010)

Very cool. 

Thanks for chiming in!



Edit: Damn, no address in profile :biglaugh: (had to check... can't blame me)


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## jphank (Apr 29, 2012)

Thanks for all the info, Steve!


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## nikonnut (Dec 4, 2011)

Steve,
Thanks you for the response, sir  This clueless noob is looking forward to being enlighten by the master! Oh, and I promise the only thing I'm planning on burning is another No.9! Thank again for stopping by and putting our minds at ease.


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## Goldstein (Mar 7, 2012)

One of my favorites is the Liga #9, but I had 2 in a row from my latest box that were WAY TOO TIGHT. I guessed one was a coincidence, but 2 in a row really aggravated me.


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## szyzk (Nov 27, 2010)

ssaka said:


> So please do me favor and afford me the chance to write a real reply tomorrow AM before you burn us at the stake.


You've got time... I just lit a Feral Pig.


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## Cigar Noob (May 22, 2011)

I've openly admitted to being clueless about the cigar making process here, and I look forward to being hit with some knowledge by an industry pro. I eagerly await a little education lesson, thanks in advance Steve. 

Only comment is: the only t52 flying pig I had burned very poorly, it was either plugged, or the more likely chance that it just got gummed up with tar/resin/whatever-it's-called. Have not had those issues with UC or LP9s.


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## jradakov (May 30, 2012)

I've learned a lot from this thread. Thanks, guys! I enjoyed the videos, E Dogg. They are very interesting and informative. 

I'm really looking forward to Steve's post, tomorrow, too.


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## Engineer99 (Aug 4, 2011)

What a great thread!! We all get to learn a little about what goes into making one of the most coveted cigars available. I can't wait to read what Steve has to say.


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## RealSRS (Feb 13, 2012)

Awesome thread. 

Drew estate has continually come through with some of the best customer service in the industry. I know first hand! Cant wait to learn a little more about the cigar making process.


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## tatubom1 (Jan 10, 2010)

Just had a T52 Toro the other day and i have to say, as far as I could tell, the draw on it was perfect. It was the most enjoyable smoke I have had in the last few weeks. 

As for this thread it has been really educational and looking forward to seeing Steve's response to this, I saw someone cement on one unraveling in a review on another site and Steve told the guy to email him about getting a replacement. You just have to love a company with that level of customer service.


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## gasdocok (May 14, 2011)

I have only had one No.9 (at corona in orlando with Oldmso54 if anyone cares) and it was very enjoyable. The undercrown is currently one of my favorites but that may be because I can never find any T52s or No.9s in stock anywhere in oklahoma city. 

I guess I could try to find some online but I like to support my local shops when possible. So, Mr. Saka, along with the upcoming lesson on rolling, which I am definitely looking forward to(any chance to increase my cigar knowledge is welcome), any idea when more of these great sticks will get shipped out??


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## Ants (May 30, 2012)

nikonnut said:


> Alright guys, so my curiosity way piqued and thanks to a few beers I was feeling brave so I dissected a No.9 robusto. The wineador is sitting at 63%/66F if that matters so on to the blood and guts


You sir, are my hero.


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## Drkknght145 (Apr 22, 2012)

nikonnut said:


> Steve,
> Thanks you for the response, sir  This clueless noob is looking forward to being enlighten by the master! Oh, and I promise the only thing I'm planning on burning is another No.9! Thank again for stopping by and putting our minds at ease.


Couldn't agree more, I will still burn LPs like they are going out of style! I think it's great to see someone stand by their product which is unfortunately rare these days. That right there has made me that much more of a fan. I will burn a FFP in your honor Steve right now!


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## loulax07 (Dec 17, 2011)

Guys, just wanted to let you know that I've spoken to Jonathan Drew about this and he's looking into the matter...


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## sdlaird (Mar 15, 2011)

I fully expected a coherent response from either JD or SS on this. I have to give them credit for keeping their ear to the ground and truly caring about customer service. My box of #9 just landed this week.


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## JayD (Jul 19, 2011)

I was sure Steve would be here to set us all straight on the matter. One of the many reasons I love DE and LP so much.


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## Drkknght145 (Apr 22, 2012)

Seriously, after thinking about it more I can't believe the presidents of Drew Estates would take time out of their busy schedules to watch a forum and see what REAL people think and have to say about their product. DE will always have a place in my humidor.


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## DarrelMorris (Feb 7, 2012)

Drkknght145 said:


> Seriously, after thinking about it more I can't believe the presidents of Drew Estates would take time out of their busy schedules to watch a forum and see what REAL people think and have to say about their product. DE will always have a place in my humidor.


Yup... :cowboyic9:


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## RWalleyTX (Feb 21, 2012)

wow thanks for the pics


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## StogieNinja (Jul 29, 2009)

This is why I'm a DE customer for life. The Liga Privada No. 9 is one of the best cigars ever produced, the customer service is top notch, and Steve and JD's involvement in the community and passion for their products is second to _none_!


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## woodted (Jan 3, 2009)

Drkknght145 said:


> Seriously, after thinking about it more I can't believe the presidents of Drew Estates would take time out of their busy schedules to watch a forum and see what REAL people think and have to say about their product. DE will always have a place in my humidor.


And they do it on other forums as well! Customer service doesn't get any better than DE, thus their section of my humis is quite expansive!:first:


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## jradakov (May 30, 2012)

As an aside, I've never had a Liga Privada No. 9. I'm going to stop on the way home and pick one up to try.


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## jphank (Apr 29, 2012)

jradakov said:


> As an aside, I've never had a Liga Privada No. 9. I'm going to stop on the way home and pick one up to try.


If you can find one!

I've smoked one, and it was just... perfect. It's on my wish list for a box!


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## jradakov (May 30, 2012)

I saw a box in my local store. I'm not sure if it was a No. 9 or a T52. I sure hope it was a No. 9, and that they still have some!


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## mannish (Jan 19, 2012)

I am in the minority but I think the Ligas including the undercrown are little overrated - I also think they are using supply (lack of) to create demand on some of the 'vitolas' . If they were always available then scoring some would not be a big deal. IMHO


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## StogieNinja (Jul 29, 2009)

mannish said:


> I am in the minority but I think the Ligas including the undercrown are little overrated - I also think they are using supply (lack of) to create demand on some of the 'vitolas' . If they were always available then scoring some would not be a big deal. IMHO


Leo, Steve has addressed this in past posts. They could make a _TON _more money if they released more product. The most compelling argument against the "purposeful scarcity" accusal is simple: artificially increasing demand serves _zero _purpose unless they're meeting the increased demand with more product to sell, which obviously isn't happening. So the only tenable explanation is that Steve, JD, and company simply refuse to release the cigars until they're ready. The demand isn't there because of scarcity, the scarcity is there because of demand. Demand is because they're amazing cigars.


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## ssaka (Oct 28, 2007)

TEST TEST TEST - having problems posting my long A$$ answer...


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## StogieNinja (Jul 29, 2009)

ssaka said:


> TEST TEST TEST - having problems posting my long A$$ answer...


break into two posts, perhaps?


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## ssaka (Oct 28, 2007)

|| There is a lot of very longwinded info in this post and much of it is MY OPINION based on MY EXPERIENCE as someone who is directly responsible for operating a handmade cigar factory that produces 85,000 handmade cigars each day. Nothing in the cigar business is an absolute, but I have tried my best to share with you in a somewhat coherent way a little bit of my knowledge. ||

Good Morning... ok, it is afternoon, but cut a fat guy a break, been sweating my ass off in Nica for the last 12 days and desperately needed to sleep in.

I have now read the thread, looked at the pics, saw the vids, etc. etc...

This is going to be a very longwinded answer which many are going to find boring, so consider yourself warned!!!

"I got a Liga Privada and it sucked because of...":

First off, it happens. We don't want it to happen, we do everything in our power to make it not happen, but ultimately it is a handmade product constructed out of an organic material - the burn can not always be perfect, the draw can not always be perfect and even the flavor can't always be perfect. You can have a bale of perfect tobacco and all it takes is for a few leaves to not burn quite at the same pace - no way to tell but to light every leaf on fire and well then you got no tobacco left to make the cigar with - best you can do is "proof" a reasonable amount of leaf. Same with taste, I mean think about a bag of sunflower seeds - every once in awhile you get that one odd tasting kernel in the bag - no way to find unless you eat every seed. And even ditto on the draw, you do everything right - proper technique, supervisors, weighing each cigar, etc etc and one slightly twisted bunch and viola' the draw is less than ideal. Again the only way to be absolutely sure is to smoke every cigar you make... 

So when it comes to handmade cigars, you must expect for them to not all be perfect regardless of price.

That being said, when it comes to LP we at Drew Estate do everything possible to make them as perfect as possible, we only use the finest materials, we have only our best pairs construct them, we limit them to just making 225 a day, they have our best floor supervisors assigned to review the production, the receive the highest scrutiny by our quality control department with every single cigar being individually cepo'd, weighed, felt, look at, etc. - there is absolutely nothing that we could do to improve LPs quality when it comes to being a handmade cigar.

The result IMO is an exceptional cigar - the blends have proven consistent since 2007 - I can think of very few cigars as popular as this one that can make this claim and the number of "bad" ones is extremely low - overall they have great draws, near perfect burns and great flavor and aroma. I say this not as the Prez, but as a guy who himself smokes 5-10 LPs every single day many from the same production that is destined to be boxed.

Is there an occasional bad one, absolutely yes, and there will always be, but they will be rare. If you want an iron clad consistent burn, draw, flavor then your only choice is to smoke machine made cause you ain't going to get that smoking any handmade. So an occasional bad cigar is just part of the deal of being a handmade cigar smoker.

ALL THAT BEING SAID - if you get a box of LPs that is not up to snuff for whatever reason, just email me and we will make it right. We have always done our best to square up with our customers, plus we like too get the balance of the box back so we can inspect them.

---

Now I am going to address the specific points brought up in this thread:

Issue #1 - "The draw was tight."

This imo is the greatest sin in a cigar. Worse than a bad burn, worse than tasting like cat food, worse than... well you get the point. There are many things that can result in a tight draw: 1) Too much filler, 2) Filler materials that are too thin in texture which in turn do not allow for proper air channels, 3) Improper bunching technique from tubing too tightly, folding too tightly and or worse, booking, 4) Improper positioning of the long filler in the bunch, 5) Improper placement of the backfill in the bunch, 6) Too much moisture in the barrel of the bunch from improper wicking and/or long term storage, and 7) Very of the slight twisting the bunch when the cigars are turned in the presses.

It is impossible for me to explain all of these in a forum, it really requires some hands on demoing in order for it to make sense. Every cigar maker has their own opinion as to which is the #1 culprit, even JD and I disagree - he believes the positioning is the #1 cause where as I feel the risk of the twisted bunch during the turn is more likely. There really is no way to tell what is the culprit without personally inspecting the cigar and only by someone that actually knows how to make a cigar and has done, witnessed and or taught others thousands of times.

What you guys are doing by tearing a cigar here and there apart pales to what we do, I would say in a given month I personally tear apart on average 500+ cigars - sometimes many more.

So what I am going to do here is try to explain the various techniques employed in making a handmade cigar bunch - going to be tough, again easier seen than talked about, but I am going to try:

There are three primary methods of hand bunching a cigar: 1) Entubado, 2) Estrujado and 3) Booking.

Let's start with #3 - Booking - I begin here because it is the worst of the methods and is considered crude and unacceptable by any reputable cigar maker. It simply involves taking the filler leaves of the blend, stacking them on top of each other then folding them in half and then refold in half again the stack. It is very quick to do, but results in a cigar that while CAN burn and draw as desired often does not due to the dense material positioning at each of the folds and the fact that the tobacco is not positioned in any way to facilitate the burn or draw. Booking is simply unacceptable even if it does work and no cigar maker of any worth employes this method imo.

So let's get to the 2 primary acceptable methods of hand bunching: Entubado and Estrujado

Entubado - aka Entubar also called "strawing" or "tubing" the tobacco is a method where the filler tobacco is rolled into relatively tight tubes of tobacco and then laid onto the binder. This is the often called the "Cuban" method. 

Estrujado - aka "accordion" or "folding" is a method where the leaves are folded over onto themselves in an and laid into the bunch. This method is utilized in the DR and Central America.

FYI - there are Nicaraguan factories that roll entubado and Cuban factories that roll estrujado - so you really can't generalized as a country of origin thing.

Now in this section is 100% ALL MY OPINION ONLY and every cigar maker will have their own opinion about the below.

There are benefits and downsides to each of the two primary methodology of hand bunching techniques.

Entubado - tubing the filler allows for great air channels and draw (when done right - regretfully many Cuban factories suck at their technique) but can result in funny burn patterns if the fillers do not burn at near identical rates... for example every see a cigar with like a nail spike of tobacco sticking out that is burning slower than the rest of the cigar? This is a perfect example of a entubado rolled cigar with slow burning ligero... And once the tobaccos are not burning together relatively evenly, the blend no longer tastes right.

Estrujado - the folding of the leaf allows typically for a better burn because unlike the entubado method, the end result is each of the filler leaves have more surface area contact with their neighboring leaves in the bunch which allows for the quicker burning ones to help along the slower burning ones which ultimately creates a better burn and a more consistent tasting blend. The downside to estrujado is it a method that can be rush through and result in a uneven burning cigars because the bunchero got too many of the folds to one side, aka like booking, plus just a little bit too much leaf and the draw deteriorates quickly.

Now when both methods are implemented properly both are capable of producing an exceptional handmade cigar, but in my opinion both methods have inherent strengths and weaknesses. And in the case of BOTH methods - Backfilling is a CRITICAL component in doing it right.

"Backfilling" - this is using small pieces of the broken leaf from the very same long filler tobaccos to help to fill in any potential soft spots in the bunch. Some bunches require very little backfill, others require more - it all depends on how the bunch feels in the bunchero's hand. To the uneducated, this looks like scrap tobacco, but it is not. Backfilling is also utilized to help improve the flavor depending on how it is executed - for example when we make LPs - we never backfill with any Seco - only one of the viso varieties and the two ligeros are utilized.

When I see a cigar brand in which cigar after cigar have NO BACKFILL it means one of three things to me: either 1) The cigar was made on a "Liberman/Telscum", 2) The bunchero was lazy and not really paying close attention to feel of the bunch in his hand, or 3) The factory's master maker does not have faith in their bunchero to properly adjust the fill on their own.

What is a Lieberman you ask? It is the handmade cigar business' dirty little secret - it is basically a hand operated piece of equipment the looks like a giant cigarette rolling machine with a flap and control bars which creates the bunch with a push/pull motion by the bunchero. Legally a cigar is considered handmade since this apparatus is operated by hand.

It is very common to see liebermans utilized in cigar factories - in fact it is the NORMAL method used in the construction of long filler handmade premium cigars in the DR, the split in Honduras about 50/50 and less so in Nicaragua. Most makers use them for medium and short filler cigars everywhere, but not all.

Makers who use liebermans will swear they make better, more consistent bunches and makers like ourselves will argue that they do not. 

I AM NOT GOING TO SAY WHO DOES AND DOES NOT USE LIBERMANS, as it would be inappropriate for me to do so as a maker given my personal opinion regarding their use. I will say at DE we do not use them for the construction of any long filler premiums, we do however have a few we use for the manufacture of mixed filler, bundle grade cigars. 

All that being said, it is possible to make a very good long filler cigar on a Lieberman, but I do not believe you can make an exceptional one as it robs the bunchero of the ability to feel the bunch in their hand and BACKFILL the bunch by feel as needed. There are some factories that use backfill even when employing liebermans, but they are doing so more by sight than feel although they will argue that the bunchero is feeling by pressing the tips of his fingers against the filler from the top down into the tobacco that is resting in the telscum's flap prior to operating the control arm.

So let me get back to Drew Estate and how -WE- hand bunch our long filler premium cigars:

When we were developing the first Liga Privada cigars we began working on a new methodology of hand bunching cigars to take what we regard as the best properties of both the Entubado and Estrujado methods while minimizing their potential negatives. 

Essentially it is style where we roll the fillers in entubado-style, but in very loose, wide tubes of leaf then place those in estrujado style into the hand which contains a "base' leaf that acts almost like a second binder leaf, but is actually part of the filler blend - typically a seco. We then break off the tips and sometimes the butts of the long leaf bunch and backfill the body of the bunch to get even compression throughout its length.

I often refer to this as "lazy entubado", but JD has coined the term "Escuado" and it has stuck in our factory. I believe the YouTube video above with JD speaking is a good example of what I am describing.

This hybrid method of hand bunching cigars is extremely time consuming and requires even our very best buncheros an additional six months to learn. Plus they must have a great sense of feel because by utilizing the the backfill we are essentially giving them the ability to micro-adjust each and every bunch by touch. Not every bunchero can do this.

The resulting cigars end up being densely packed yet exhibit an amazingly effortless draw while burning and will burn not only more evenly, but longer left resting than others. It is also one of the reasons for the incredibly density of the smoke our cigars emit.

Our unique Escudao method produces, in my opinion, the very best burning, drawing and consistent tasting cigars possible. No other factory employs our exact methodology to my knowledge.

End of opinion - kinda - were back to my normal level of opinion... 

And fwiw, cigar makers that I greatly respect like Padron and Pepin have seen how we construct our cigars and have dissected them and have told us they are impressed by our technique even though each has their own slightly different methodologies. It is because of this mutual respect that all our factories often take our own visiting groups of cigar consumers and retailers to one another factories on tours so allow each of our groups to witness another factory in operation.

TO BE CONTINUED… STS


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## ssaka (Oct 28, 2007)

CONTINUED by STS

Issue #2 - "There were stems in my cigar!"

As for the stem issue, I'd have to see the cigar to make a judgement on this. 

ALL cigars should contain stems... stems in themselves are not a bad thing as the stems contain high levels of oil and flavor - this is why we frogstrip filler tobaccos of their central vein. If you look at a piece of any properly prepare filler leaf you will notice that from the top down it looks like the shape of a frog - intact body out front with two legs stretched behind it. The reason for this is because we break out the thickest part of the stem from the leaf, but typically leave more than half of it intact and in place. On average about 50% of the stem is extracted, with the other 50% being left intact to be incorporated into the bunch.

It is a compromise as the stems/ribs add a lot of flavor and aroma, but too much stem and the it can be awkward in the mouth for the consumer or worse it can sometimes act like a fuse due to its high concentration of oil and result in tunneling. (FYI - this is not the only reason a cigar can tunnel, but I will save that for another day). Regardless, we always try to position the stems forward in a way so that it is less likely for them to come in contact with the smoker's tongue because nobody, myself included, likes the feeling of a hard stem against the tip of their tongue.

So the question is how much stem is too much stem, and there is no way to determine this without my personally dissecting the cigar and judging it based on the blend and its individual construction - one the whole, more robust, heavy leaf cigars will have more thicker ones and milder blends with lighter tobaccos will have less.

---

Issue #3 - "There are pieces of short fill in my supposedly long filler handmade cigar!"

Please refer back to my long dissertation on backfilling under Issue #1. As I said yesterday, I would be very upset if I tore apart 25 cigars from any of our LP bunchero's benches and DID NOT find these pieces of tobacco. I expect to see the viso and ligero tips in nearly every single bunch and I expect to see varying amount of "brokes" on a cigar to cigar basis that were incorporated to ensure the bunches were evenly filled - it is this practice that makes the blend taste right, burn right and draw right.

Also, when you make a truly complex blend, you often break the long leaf into smaller pieces as there are times you wish to incorporate 1/2 and 1/4 strips of a particular tobacco or more of a particular tobacco into the recipe - only the most simplistic of blends, 1 seco, 1 viso and 1 ligero blends would not have this - and even in their cases depending on the ring size you often must break the leaf to get to correct amount of each into the bunch.

When I see bunch after bunch come off a bench with no backfill to me it is a indicator of a cigar by a lazy bunchero - often done on a lieberman, but also done entirely by hand.

---

So while you have been told one thing or another by books and magazines, the truth is the people writing these books seldom actually know jack shit about actually making cigars. Most in fact have visited a few factories, talk to a bunch of wonks and are often parroting just what other people have written for years before them.

Even sometimes people who do know, seldom will tell the absolute truth, because it doesn't jibe with the long held mis-conceived notions of the consumers who actually buy the product. It isn't their job to educate cigar consumers, rather it is their task to make and sell cigars and if consumers for whatever reason have some mis-held beliefs, why should they risk being the one to fight what the supposed "experts" have said over and over again?

This is the reason you seldom see anyone who does actually know what the hell is going on write anything like this because with it comes risk. Hence my posting something so detailed will likely result in my catching some flack not only from the online "cigar ninjas wannabes", but even some truly legit, in the know cigar makers will dislike what I have written.

Plus those who actually do make cigars are just too damn busy making cigars to write about making cigars... hmmm, that make me look kinda stupid.. oh well, such is life. LOL.

In short, find me a book written about how to farm, cure, ferment, select, sort, blend tobacco and make handmade cigars by someone like old man Padron, Pepin or the late Senor LLaneza and then we could have a real discussion - the truth is IMO THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A TRULY GOOD, 100% ACCURATE BOOK OR ARTICLE EVER WRITTEN ABOUT HOW TO MAKE A HANDMADE CIGAR. And even all three men whom I greatly admire have their own held beliefs that differ from each other and myself.

As I stated in the beginning, there is no absolutes when it comes to making handmade premium cigars.

So there you have it - I apologize for the length, I apologize for how sloppy and convoluted it may be, but I hope it addresses the issues raised in this thread and that I have provided a little more insight into how handmade premium cigars are actually manufactured.

Best Regards,

Steve Saka
President, Drew Estate

ps: I just reread all that and forgot to include a comment on "shattering" - sometimes if the material is a touch on the dry side when constructing a handmade bunch, the leaf can shatter aka break when the bunch is placed in the mold for pressing giving the illusion of it being partially constructed of some smaller pieces of leaf.

Pps: Had to break the post into 2 as it exceeded the maximum length allowed…. plus I had to delete my email addy and some of the wacky punctuation as it wouldn't let me post it all as originally written.


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## ssaka (Oct 28, 2007)

Trying this again now that I am over the 30 post threshold...

If you got stuck with a bad box of LPs for whatever reason, just email me at [email protected] and we will do our best to make it right - don't get alarmed if I don't reply quickly though as I am constantly in transit and typically swamped.

Thanks,

Steve Saka
President, Drew Estate


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## socalocmatt (Dec 22, 2010)

Thanks for all the great info. 

My only really problem with LP is the fact that they suck the life outta my bank account :biggrin:

But then again the only logical solution isnt one that I am willing to accept.

Thanks for the great cigars! :thumb:


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## Jay106n (Nov 3, 2011)

I, sir, bow to you. Great posts, great explanations and insight. And thanks for taking the time out of your busy schedule to address the issues of the members on Puff. I will smoke a #9 tonight in your honor


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## ssaka (Oct 28, 2007)

And on this issue of "intentional scarcity" - yes, some folks do this and yes, there is some business logic that supports the practice, but I swear on my mother's soul that this has not been the case when it comes to Liga Privada.

Nobody on this planet wishes we could produce more Liga Privadas than us. It is a customer relation nightmare, not a day goes by when retailers aren't upset with us. Very few of the appointed merchants who have it have enough and there are probably 700 more legit, tobacconists that should have it available on their shelves. What really blows is all of them are great customer's of ours as they buy and sell many of our other brands and it is very difficult to not to be able to offer them LP for their shelves.

The issue for us is maintaining the quality of the blend - this is true of all of our cigars, but the situation with LPs is just more pronounced given the demand and popularity. 

Drew Estate was known rightly or wrongly for a very longtime as the factory/company that makes great infused cigars, but we received very little credit when it came to traditional cigars. Changing this perception was one of the primary responsibilities I was tasked with when I was named President of DE and working with JD, Marvin, and all it has been my No. 1 priority. 

In order to do this, it meant a very serious level of commitment on our part to the level of quality in both the materials and construction of the product and then sustaining the consistency of the product. Fairly or unfairly, the bar for us is much higher in order to win and maintain this respect from the cigar consumer.

We believe it is our Liga Privada brand that has demonstrated what we are capable of and has change the public's perception of our abilities as cigar manufacturer. So we go to great length to maintain the integrity of our products. We believe it is the reason why Undercrown was given a fair sampling by consumers and we believe it will be the very same reason why when we launch Willie Herrera's blend later this year it will be afforded the same.

This regretfully means, we simply can not "adjust" or slightly tweak anything about the brand so as to allow for an increase in production. To us LP greatest value is it's integrity as a blend and as a product, which regretfully means we simply can not produce anywhere near the level we could sell. We have left millions of dollars off the table taking this position, but we believe it is the right decision.

That being said, know that we have always done everything possible to increase our ability to produce more of these cigars. We are in the cigar business, we make money by making more cigars and selling more cigars - our goal is to make and sell as many cigars as consumers wish to buy and smoke.

No way is it our desire to limit the brand. We are not that f'ing stupid...

BR,

STS


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## DarrelMorris (Feb 7, 2012)

Thank you for the informative response. I love your products. Knowing what goes into them, and how committed you are to making them makes me love them even more.


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## JuiceMan (Apr 17, 2012)

I'm loving this thread!


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## StogieNinja (Jul 29, 2009)

ssaka said:


> And on this issue of "intentional scarcity" ... know that we have always done everything possible to increase our ability to produce more of these cigars. We are in the cigar business, we make money by making more cigars and selling more cigars - our goal is to make and sell as many cigar as consumers wish to buy and smoke.
> 
> No way is it our desire to limit the brand. We are not that f'ing stupid...






ssaka said:


> Hence my posting something so detailed will likely result in my catching some flack not only from the online "cigar ninjas wannabes", but even some truly legit, in the know cigar makers will dislike what I have written.


Steve, I'll talk to my clan and make sure no_real _ninjas throw any flack your way!
:smoke:

-_The _Ninja

Great response, and again, we all appreciate you coming in and schooling us to how things really work!


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## Jay106n (Nov 3, 2011)

> The resulting cigars end up being densely packed yet exhibit an amazingly effortless draw while burning and will burn not only more evenly, but longer left resting than others. It is also one of the reasons for the incredibly density of the smoke our cigars emit.


I have always wondered why your cigars always emit sooo much more never ending thick smoke than any other cigar...now I know! Thanks.

Even the Undercrown spews so much beautiful smoke it ticks off my neighbors more than any other cigar haha :smoke2:


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## ssaka (Oct 28, 2007)

And one final comment, I don't expect everyone to like Liga Privada even when it is perfect imo.

No single blend or cigar is right for every consumer. I am not in the slightest offended when someone doesn't like one of our products.

One of my basic tenets when it comes to blending a cigar or creating a brand is:

"Never try to make a cigar that everyone likes, because when you do you have ultimately made a cigar than nobody loves..."

Our goal at DE is to make a wide range of cigars from ACID to Liga Privada and everything in between with the hope that a cigar consumer will find one that they absolutely love and will become a loyal smoker of.

Wow, I gotta get off this thing...

BR,

STS


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## StogieNinja (Jul 29, 2009)

Jay106n said:


> I have always wondered why your cigars always emit sooo much more never ending thick smoke than any other cigar...now I know! Thanks.


Word.


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## ssaka (Oct 28, 2007)

The level of smoke emitted is the combo of two different things: 1) The bunching technique we employ and 2) The concentration of oil in the entirely naturally fermented CTBL No. 1 Darks and Stalk Cut Habano capas. These tobaccos are extremely oily by their nature and we do not allow the farmer or broker to box sweat either which is the common practice for all heavy leaf tobacco grown and procured in the CT River Valley. Also we do not utilize a cauldera to finish off the color at the end of the second fermentation either which is also a very common practice.

The use of box sweating to start and a cauldera to finish is very common and methods employed by almost all premium handmade cigar companies, however we choose to not employ these techniques for our own reasons. There are pluses and minus, but in our opinion, one of the pluses of not using them is more oil which results in more smoke which results in more flavor.

BR,

STS

ps: Do not confuse initial sweating or finishing with a cauldera as being the same as "COOKING" - it is not. Cooking tobacco is when you dramatically shorten the fermentation cycle by "violently" steaming the leaf for a short period of time at 180 degrees plus and typically in a small vessel with the leaf a la plancha. And heck there are even some legit benefits to cooking as it not only gives you a clean aesthetic, but can help to concentrate the sweetness in some leaf varieties... regardless, we currently don't utilize any of these methods in our existing brands.


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## itsjustkevin (Feb 8, 2012)

Although I have smoked only a few Undercrowns and less than a handful of Liga Privadas....the fact that you took time to post/comment about condition concerns by others and really elaborating a great response really gains respect from me not only as a consumer but as a person. Once I have the chance to get my hands on some more of your product here in San Antonio, I definitely will.


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## sdlaird (Mar 15, 2011)

Well done Mr. Saka. The thorough and coherent explanation is greatly appreciated. What you say makes perfect sense. The fact that you took the time to say it is very impressive in its own right. LPs all around this weekend folks, go smoke one. I'm going to set fire to a Dirty Rat that I have been saving.


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## kapathy (Nov 20, 2010)

Now that sts's (steve) fingers are numb from typing.... wow that was an overwhelming amount of information dumbed down to a level even i understood most of it. Def a top notch reply from a top notch company. Thanks for your time and knowledge.


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## NuG (Sep 1, 2009)

Steve - thanks for the response and time you've put in to answer the questions in this thread. As most mention, it is out of the norm for a cigar company to respond on a forum - you've put many minds at ease. We need more companies, not only cigar companies to follow your lead. You've made a loyal customer out of me and I'm sure others as well. 

Cheers, 
Dan


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## Sarge (Nov 21, 2010)

I don't see the original picture. Disappointing.... 

Anyway, looks like Steve already chimed in so no need to Flame everyone jumping all over this. :tongue1: As others have said, JD & Steve are great people, great BOTLs, & they are hands down the best @ Customer Satisfaction & will make any problem right. That being said, Steve has said it all best in his several replies. Also as he said, not every cigar is for everyone. You don't like Undercrown, Liga Privada, fine, smoke what you enjoy. There's plenty of great cigars I don't particularly care for or that aren't as favorable as others. Just the way it is. You think they're overrated, you're entitled to that. We can all find something we feel is overrated for whatever reason..... :thumb:


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## Vicini (Oct 10, 2010)

As many others have said thank you for the informative response and for taking the time to write it. This is the way all companies should conduct themselves.  
Personally I enjoy the LP line and thanks to the Acid Kuba Kuba I have gotten my GF to enjoy a Cigar with me from time to time


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## Malcontent (Mar 22, 2012)

Jay106n said:


> I, sir, bow to you. Great posts, great explanations and insight. And thanks for taking the time out of your busy schedule to address the issues of the members on Puff. I will smoke a #9 tonight in your honor


I will do the same, tonight is #9 night!


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## Smoke0ne (Feb 2, 2012)

Steve, thanks so much for taking the time to post an educated response that addresses the subject at hand. It's people like you that promote the cigar industry in the positive light of gentlemanly class. It speaks a lot about a brand to have their President whole heartedly stand behind his product. 

If you haven't had the opportunity to smoke a Liga, you are truly missing out. Matter of fact, thanks to Christopher (NikonNut), my father and I both enjoyed a No.9 to celebrate my recent graduation. I couldn't have asked for a better cigar to compliment such a meaningful moment in both of our lives.


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## yellowv (Dec 24, 2011)

Thank you very much for all the amazing info and taking the time to post it, Steve. I have never had a poorly constructed DE cigar. From the lower end to the LP's all have been perfectly constructed and IMO the LP9 is one of the best cigars on the planet.


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## AStateJB (Oct 13, 2011)

Excellent info Steve! Thank you so much for your reply. I always enjoy learning more about our hobby! :thumb:


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## 4pistonjosh (Nov 10, 2008)

What A great response. I just wanted to thank you for taking the time to do so.

Every time I read your posts I feel a little bit more educated about the industry and my love for cigars is escalated.


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## jphank (Apr 29, 2012)

Thanks, Steve, Ring Gauge rep for you


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## JuiceMan (Apr 17, 2012)

JayD said:


> Liga is my all time favorite smoke. I actually had a 52 Toro that had a similar stem in it. I would not let this detract from my smoking in the least. It is a man made product and these things happen.


Well said! This thread actually enticed me to go buy my second box of Pigs for this week. Guess you could say they are my favorite.


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## jphank (Apr 29, 2012)

JuiceMan said:


> Well said! This thread actually enticed me to go buy my second box of Pigs for this week. Guess you could say they are my favorite.


Wow, I wish I could find one box!


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## Matt4370 (Jan 14, 2012)

jphank said:


> Wow, I wish I could find one box!


Jessica, cruise down my way! The local B&M had 5 (yes FIVE!!) boxes last time I stopped in.


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## jphank (Apr 29, 2012)

Matt4370 said:


> Jessica, cruise down my way! The local B&M had 5 (yes FIVE!!) boxes last time I stopped in.


Tempting...


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## Ortiz (Feb 9, 2012)

I suspect that this thread will only make LPs even more scarce  I often lament on the fact that customer service is dead, but clearly it is not. Somebody with better writing ability than me should write an article on this thread as a lesson on true customer service. Thank you for taking the time out of what I know must be a ridiculous schedule. I suspect anyone who has read this thread will serve as brand ambassadors for your company for years to come.


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## jradakov (May 30, 2012)

First, thank you Steve for your enlightening posts. They were very informative. 

Second, I always associated Drew Estate with infused sticks, so I never gave them a go. I am just not a big fan of infused cigars. I stopped at my shop on the way home today, and I picked up a Liga Privada No. 9 and an Undercrown. All I can say is "wow." The No. 9 is one of my favorite sticks that I have ever smoked. It had great flavors, superb construction, and fantastic burn. I can't wait to try the Undercrown tomorrow. My unfounded opinion of Drew Estate has been changed, and I will be a customer for as long as I smoke cigars.

Thanks, again!


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## nikonnut (Dec 4, 2011)

Steve,
Amazing dissertation on the finer points of cigar making! Thank you! I'm not even sure how I stumbled across my first No.9 but I now refer to you as my pimp :lol: A truly amazing cigar made by some amazing folks! Kudos to everyone involved. You keep making them and I'll keep smoking them. Lastly, I actually like the treasure hunt aspect of tracking them down. Makes 'em even more special!


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## KaChong (Jan 1, 2012)

Hi Steve, 

Thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to give us a better appreciation of your cigars which we already love and are already clamoring to acquire more of. I very much appreciate your willingness to give us a sense of why you make your favorite cigars the way you do. It might not help me roll my own cigars, but your explanations give me a better idea of what brings about the properties that I like in my favorite cigars in my humidor. I have myself wondered how your LP #9's generated such a dense tasty smoke yet were easy drawing. 

Just one question if you have the time:

I was toying with a long hunk of ash one night that dropped off of one of your #9's. I have wondered why another make of cigar would have a fluffy flaky ash that fell off at short lengths, but I always had robust chunky ashes from your #9's. I rolled the 1.25" long hunk of ash around in my ashtray and noticed that all of the exterior ash flaked away easily leaving this log of much more robust ash in the middle. The middle ash didn't fail under it's own weight and inertia. Are you using some sort of high mineral content tobacco in the middle of your #9 blend which coincidentally acts as a kind of spine supporting the comparatively flaky outside ash? 

Honestly I don't really care if a cigar has a robust ash. I'd love the #9 blend even if it shed ash like dandruff.

Can we bomb you some nice pipe tobacco? Maybe we can heap some pipe tobacco upon your desk so we can have more of your delicious cigars. I'm glad you like your LP line so much even if it means you have to product test it so much.


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## yellowv (Dec 24, 2011)

I was surprised that I just went into my B&M and they had fresh new LP stock. It has been a while since I have seen that. Got a couple of LP9's to add to my LP stash, and being that I'm weak I probably won't be able to resist going back for more.


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## markov (Aug 15, 2011)

I've been trying to find a few of LP to try for quite some time with no luck. Being in Europe doesn't help either.

Thanks for giving us this info Steve. I'm of opinion that if we know more about the cigar we smoke, we appreciate it more too. I've always wondered why cigar makers don't include small booklets in boxes that tell us more about the tobaccos and production process of the cigar we bought.


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## tatubom1 (Jan 10, 2010)

Steve, thank you for all the information. Yours and Drew Estates level of customer service is something that is lacking from all areas of business and they should fallow your example. That is why I will always try your products. The quality of your products and there flavor is why I enjoy most all of your lines. Once I found out about the LP line I had to try one as soon as I found one and I look forward to the next one. Again thanks for the information and clearing things up on this one.


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## BMack (Dec 8, 2010)

KaChong said:


> Hi Steve,
> 
> Thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to give us a better appreciation of your cigars which we already love and are already clamoring to acquire more of. I very much appreciate your willingness to give us a sense of why you make your favorite cigars the way you do. It might not help me roll my own cigars, but your explanations give me a better idea of what brings about the properties that I like in my favorite cigars in my humidor. I have myself wondered how your LP #9's generated such a dense tasty smoke yet were easy drawing.
> 
> ...


I actually almost commented about that. The LP9 always has a longer ash than a T52.


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## 36Bones (Aug 18, 2011)

I feel like I'm back in college. That's some great schooling. This* is* customer support at it's finest. Thank you so much for all the informative and detailed answers. I have never had the privilege to smoke any of the LP line. Someday, I'm sure I will. But in respect to your taking time to come here and share, I will put my wallet where my mouth is, and purchase more DE products. I do love a good UZI and it's time I got around to enjoying an Undercrown.


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## waylman (Aug 15, 2011)

No wonder we can't find any LPs! Saka smokes 5-10 a day!!!


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## StogieNinja (Jul 29, 2009)

waylman said:


> No wonder we can't find any LPs! Saka smokes 5-10 a day!!!


Steve's said before that if ever there's a chance that the LP9's tobacco is going to be short or gone, the rest of us are SOL because if that possibility becomes a reality, he's not going to sell anymore until he has a lifetime supply stashed

:smoke:


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## Kindanutz (Jan 31, 2012)

Awsome thread...


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## Brookswphoto (Dec 25, 2008)

A few things:

I (along with some other people) just got back from a trip to the Drew Estate factory in Esteli at the Cigar Safari. We spent 3ish days there, seeing almost their entire operation from start to finish. (Photos forthcoming). I want to make some things clear, based on what we saw there:

1. There are absolutely NO Liga Privada cigars on the market now that are short filler, no matter what the insides look like. I saw multiple examples of "Backfilling", and we were told (by Steve and JD) the same thing as here: it is an integral part of blending. 
2. Every roller we saw seemed happy, seemed to worked hard and all seemed very invested in what they were doing. Not only that, but most employees can smoke while on the job (which is not as wide spread as you might think).
3. The idea that LP is intentionally holding cigars back to "increase demand" is asinine. They could sell 5 times more LP than they are at this moment (or more!), so they really don't need help in that regard.

After looking at multiple examples of factories in Esteli, there is not one (that we saw) that even comes CLOSE to the operation that DE has. Not even close. From rollers, to QC, to how they treat their employees, DE is top notch. It is truly an impressive operation from start to finish. Having been in the blogging world for years now, I have become a bit jaded when it comes to certain claims. Having said that, I can assure you that not only are Saka and JD the real deal, they actually believe wholeheartedly in what they say, and more importantly, they put their money (and product) where their mouths are.









~brooks


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## Nathan King (Nov 4, 2010)

I don't really care for the flavor of many Liga Privada cigars (nothing personal, just a preference) but have found their quality control to be second to none.


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## mannish (Jan 19, 2012)

Just curious can you (or anyone) describe that flavor. I smoked a #9 this weekend and tasteless. I could not find a flavor to describe - They look great, feel great in the hand, burn nice but I don't dig whatever flavor is there, if any. I smoked a LGC churchill last night that was full of flavor and very rich. I have smoked many LPs but I can not describe the taste. It's not earthy, not peppery, definitely not toasty nutty like an anni.....? I'd be curious to what flavors people are getting out of these -



socalocmatt said:


> Eithet way, I still like the LP's flavor.


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## StogieNinja (Jul 29, 2009)

mannish said:


> Just curious can you (or anyone) describe that flavor. I smoked a #9 this weekend and tasteless. I could not find a flavor to describe - They look great, feel great in the hand, burn nice but I don't dig whatever flavor is there, if any. I smoked a LGC churchill last night that was full of flavor and very rich. I have smoked many LPs but I can not describe the taste. It's not earthy, not peppery, definitely not toasty nutty like an anni.....? I'd be curious to what flavors people are getting out of these -


Leo, what rH are you keeping yours at? You may want to drybox the next one for a day or so before smoking. It sounds like it might be too wet? I've never met anyone who thought Liga Privadas were flavorless, but I could possibly see how an overly-humidified one might lose something. I find they're better at a lower rH, say 62% as opposed to my normal 65%, like my Cubans.

The other question is do you retrohale? I find that opens up a world of new flavors. Generally I start with about the last 10% of my exhale retrohaling, and work my way up to 25 or 30% during the smoke. I'd strongly suggest that.

From LP9s, I get an amazing set of flavors... tons of cedar, dark, bakers, and milk chocolate by turns, black pepper, rich earth, nuts, leather, a lingering spice on the finish... its one of the best NCs out there for my money.


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## Michigan_Moose (Oct 11, 2011)

ssaka said:


> And one final comment, I don't expect everyone to like Liga Privada even when it is perfect imo.
> 
> No single blend or cigar is right for every consumer. I am not in the slightest offended when someone doesn't like one of our products.
> 
> ...


Liga's are perfect, to most of us cigar lovers... Steve we love what you do and represent in the cigar world. I for one will support you guys till hell freezes over.

Moose


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## justbrew77 (Sep 29, 2011)

Michigan_Moose said:


> Liga's are perfect, to most of us cigar lovers... Steve we love what you do and represent in the cigar world. I for one will support you guys till hell freezes over.
> 
> Moose


+1, I completely agree. I've smoked many ligas and I honestly have enjoyed all of them. The No. 9 flying pig is the best smoke I have ever had to this day. I don't smoke a ton but when I want something I'm absolutely sure I'm going to enjoy I grab one of Ligas.

This is a great great thread full of a lot of info. Thanks For the response Steve. I will actually be meeting JD at an event tomorrow in Pittsburgh, should be a great time.


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## StogieNinja (Jul 29, 2009)

justbrew77 said:


> I will actually be meeting JD at an event tomorrow in Pittsburgh, should be a great time.


That sounds _awesome_. One of my collecting goals is to get a box (or one of those rolling molds!) signed by JD and Steve!


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## upandcoming (May 12, 2012)

This whole thread was a great read and says something about DE and how they handle their business!


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## jphank (Apr 29, 2012)

> From LP9s, I get an amazing set of flavors... tons of cedar, dark, bakers, and milk chocolate by turns, black pepper, rich earth, nuts, leather, a lingering spice on the finish... its one of the best NCs out there for my money.


I opened my tasting journal and Ninja and I tasted about the same things. I didn't find the black pepper to be strong, but the spices lasted and tasted wonderful, and the chocolate just made this woman all happy inside


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## EngenZerO (May 20, 2012)

Thanks for all this info... I'm really looking forward to see if I can score some this weekend at my B&M!


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## vtxcigar (Nov 25, 2010)

I have to say, this thread was fascinating. I copied Steve's posts to MS Word and put it on our Herf Group's facebook page for the other 10 guys to read. 

Thanks everyone for the input, especially you Steve!

I just picked up 5 LP T-52s on my trip to Vegas, and am dying to have one, but need to let them sit awhile first. :smoke:


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## lostdog13 (Jan 16, 2012)

ssaka said:


> No way is it our desire to limit the brand. We are not that f'ing stupid...
> 
> BR,
> 
> STS


Best part of the responses.

Was long, but definitely not boring at all. I do wish that LP was more available, especially since I'm sort of limited in NC options. B&M here carry very few NC, so it's the internet for those purchases. I have not, as of yet, tried an LP outside of Undercrown. That was a suggestion via Puff, and one I happily tried and love.

Thank you for the responses and explanations. Been a DE fan since I started smoking, and with customer service as it is shown here and through the stories of Puffers of personal interactions; that ain't changing.


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## Engineer99 (Aug 4, 2011)

How amazing is it to have such knowledge and insight passed on to us from one on the vanguard of the industry so that we may know more about the nuts and bolts that go into our beloved smokes! Thanks to Steve Saka for taking the time to post a dissertation on construction techniques of handmade cigars. Steve's posts should be required reading for any serious cigar hobbyist. The integrity of Drew Estates is second to none and I look forward to smoking lots of great cigars from them for the rest of my life.


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## sdlaird (Mar 15, 2011)

jphank said:


> I opened my tasting journal and Ninja and I tasted about the same things. I didn't find the black pepper to be strong, but the spices lasted and tasted wonderful, and the chocolate just made this woman all happy inside


You're still talking about the cigar...... right?:behindsofa:


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## nealw6971 (Jul 8, 2011)

Dang, I love threads that Saka posts in. Incredibly informative, and always entertaining. DE4L.


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## Dhughes12 (Feb 15, 2012)

very informative read. now that I've wasted the last hour of my day on this thread, im really craving an undercrown. i know this was concerning lp 9's but as my b&m has been out every time i go in, I've had to "settle" for what has become my 2nd favorite smoke. the undercrown belicoso. thanks Steve for the information. fascinating look into the process


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## ssaka (Oct 28, 2007)

PS: One of my guys (Joey Reichenbach - our very talented Creative Director) just pointed out to me how ironic it is that we will soon be releasing the Unico Papas Fritas given the content of this thread. 

The Papas Fritas is a corona size MIXED FILLER cigar made entirely of the table cuttings from the manufacture of the long filler Ligas Privadas - it uses the second cut of the No. 9s Broadleaf capa, a Mata Fina binder and a mixture of the trimming from the LP 9, T52 and other Unico blends - going to be packed in a 4-ct Pocket Tin - price yet to be determined - still waiting on final costings, but I expect it to be close to $5 a smoke. 

This is no "throw it all in there" sandwich cigar - we actually sort out all the trimmings leaf by leaf and then create a specific, consistent blend for the Papa Fritas.

IMO, it will arguably be the best mixed filled cigar ever made - the name originates from one of my favorite foods when in Nica: French Fries - I eat an insane amount of these while down there... that explains a lot don't it? -snicker- And I have been smoking a lot of these little cigars since Nicholas first created them last summer - good way to get that LP experience inside of 30 minutes and do so without burning a $12 stick.

Might be a bust - you never know in the cigar biz, but we were feeling bad about incorporating all this grade A leaf into bundle-grade fumas so this seems like an idea that might serve the needs of a smoker who is looking for a top shelf blend but in a quicker, more economical smoke.

If this is successful I bet you see a bunch of other companies copy the concept.

BR,

STS


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## kdmckin (Feb 21, 2012)

Sweet Can't Wait!


ssaka said:


> PS: One of my guys (Joey Reichenbach - our very talented Creative Director) just pointed out to me how ironic it is that we will soon be releasing the Unico Papas Fritas given the content of this thread.
> 
> The Papas Fritas is a corona size MIXED FILLER cigar made entirely of the table cuttings from the manufacture of the long filler Ligas Privadas - it uses the second cut of the No. 9s Broadleaf capa, a Mata Fina binder and a mixture of the trimming from the LP 9, T52 and other Unico blends - going to be packed in a 4-ct Pocket Tin - price yet to be determined - still waiting on final costings, but I expect it to be close to $5 a smoke.
> 
> ...


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## nikonnut (Dec 4, 2011)

Looking forward to trying them! A 30 minute LP would be a dream come true for lunch breaks, etc!


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## Tritones (Jun 23, 2010)

ssaka said:


> If this is successful I bet you see a bunch of other companies copy the concept.


Arturo Fuente Curlyhead is a similar concept and quite successful. Sounds like you may be producing a more consistent blend, and maybe using higher-grade trimmings, which would be a definite advantage. Also sounds like your price is going to be higher for a smaller cigar, so that advantage may be necessary.

Looking forward to trying them.


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## Jordan23 (May 25, 2012)

nikonnut said:


> Looking forward to trying them! A 30 minute LP would be a dream come true for lunch breaks, etc!


Yes indeed it would.


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## Phidelt076 (Oct 17, 2006)

I'll definitely give these a shot! I love the #9 and FFP but can't afford to smoke these all the time. I'm on my third box of Undercrowns and finally found some of the Corona Vivas in stock here in Dallas. I'm looking forward to firing up the first of this size this weekend.



ssaka said:


> PS: One of my guys (Joey Reichenbach - our very talented Creative Director) just pointed out to me how ironic it is that we will soon be releasing the Unico Papas Fritas given the content of this thread.
> 
> The Papas Fritas is a corona size MIXED FILLER cigar made entirely of the table cuttings from the manufacture of the long filler Ligas Privadas - it uses the second cut of the No. 9s Broadleaf capa, a Mata Fina binder and a mixture of the trimming from the LP 9, T52 and other Unico blends - going to be packed in a 4-ct Pocket Tin - price yet to be determined - still waiting on final costings, but I expect it to be close to $5 a smoke.
> 
> ...


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## socalocmatt (Dec 22, 2010)

As long as the flavor was there I don't think anyone would frown on a $5 30 minutes of LP heaven.


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## dayento2 (May 12, 2012)

ssaka said:


> PS:
> IMO, it will arguably be the best mixed filled cigar ever made - the name originates from one of my favorite foods when in Nica: French Fries - I eat an insane amount of these while down there...


Would you say the papas fritas pair nicely with real papas fritas??? :hungry:


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## Quine (Nov 9, 2011)

ssaka said:


> So while you have been told one thing or another by books and magazines, the truth is the people writing these books seldom actually know jack shit about actually making cigars. Most in fact have visited a few factories, talk to a bunch of wonks and are often parroting just what other people have written for years before them.


OH, and next you're going to tell me women don't roll these things on their thighs!

Seriously though Steve, thank you again (you give a lot to Puff I read you not long ago discussing Undercrowns), your insights, knowledge and willingness to share are very appreciated! I love the #9 though I haven't smoked many of them. Have had many Undercrowns though, latest a box of the new "corona viva"! Fantastic! Taking one of your tours in Nic. is at the top of my bucket list!


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## Tritones (Jun 23, 2010)

dayento2 said:


> Would you say the papas fritas pair nicely with real papas fritas??? :hungry:


Or cerveza?!


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## B.mamba89 (May 30, 2012)

I am still going to give one of these a try if i find one at this cigar cafe i go to. 

Sorry about the lost (Cigar)


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## Bad Finger (Jan 5, 2011)

ssaka said:


> We are in the cigar business, we make money by making more cigars and selling more cigars - our goal is to make and sell as many cigars as consumers wish to buy and smoke.
> 
> No way is it our desire to limit the brand. We are not that f'ing stupid...
> 
> ...


Then please do us all, yourself, and fellow Puffer Bazookajoe a favor and allow his shop in Colorado (Golden Leaf Pipe and Tobacco) a Liga account!


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## Frodo (Oct 1, 2009)

Bad Finger said:


> Then please do us all, yourself, and fellow Puffer Bazookajoe a favor and allow his shop in Colorado (Golden Leaf Pipe and Tobacco) a Liga account!


+1! Bazookajoe is a well-respected BOTL who has given great service to our community. I would LOVE to see him get that account!!!


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## jphank (Apr 29, 2012)

Mmmmm, magic words... Papas fritas...

Both the food and the smoke! I can't wait! 30 minute smokes are perfect for cross-town drives, before a meeting, after a meeting, hell, they're just good when I don't have 90 minutes to savor a Liga!


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## False Cast (May 28, 2012)

Wonderful thread! Very good read full of great information. I have much love for DE!


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## atllogix (May 1, 2012)

This was a great a read. And I'm glad I read all of it. At the start of the thread I was thinking "is this what I pay for". Lots of information in here indeed. And seeing company execs tend to an issue on a forum most definately gets a + from me.

Papas Fritas you say...mixed filler kinda but better, I'll have to give it a try.


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## KickinItInSD (Aug 4, 2010)

Awesome thread for any DE fans. From outrage to adoration, it runs the gambit of emotions!


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## StogieJim (Sep 18, 2010)

Wow, that was a great hour spent reading through this. Makes me want to smoke the one LP 9 I have in the humi.... It's cold outside but it might be worth it 

Nice Steve, you don't see stuff like this anymore.


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## nillorset (Sep 21, 2012)

Jay106n said:


> Moment of silence for the sacrificed LP9  hopefully you have a pipe so all that doesn't go to waste


Holds hat in hand... And became silent for 30 sec.... :lol:


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## Couch_Incident (Sep 19, 2012)

What a fantastic thread and a breath of fresh air, knowing that a vendor would take the time to post in a thread like this. This thread has been a fantastic educational opportunity. Man, I just LOVE this place.

Couch


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## tylernim (Nov 9, 2012)

When are the Papas Fritas coming out?! Or are they already...


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## alecshawn (Jun 24, 2012)

This has nothing to do with your pics but i have NEVER understood the allure of either the t52 or 9. I just didnt find them that spectacular. Hell, A flor fina 858 is a better stick. at 1/3 price.
However, ymmv...i Consider alot of cigars to be top notch...my buddies dont.


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## loulax07 (Dec 17, 2011)

alecshawn said:


> This has nothing to do with your pics but i have NEVER understood the allure of either the t52 or 9. I just didnt find them that spectacular. Hell, A flor fina 858 is a better stick. at 1/3 price.
> However, ymmv...i Consider alot of cigars to be top notch...my buddies dont.


It's a matter of taste or preference then I guess which is why people like either. Personally, I think LP's have a taste and experience different than the others that I just love. I love the abundance of smoke, the sweetness, the look, the burn and the quality of each stick. Personally I don't find an 858 smoking close to an LP or even an Undercrown, but that's my opinion.


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## Pasty (Nov 8, 2012)

This was truly an amazing read. So much useful information (thanks, Steve) and knowing a vendor is this committed to customer service speaks volumes about the brand.

Time to hit up the B&Ms, I know what's on my list today..:bolt:


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