# Klugs Challenge



## punch (Mar 5, 2005)

Last week, a comment had been made on this list that a couple of us really were not excited about Cuban cigars since the ones that we had sampled were either not up to the best NC cigars, are were not sufficiently better to warrant the extra hassle and cost. I even ended by saying that I felt that the Emperor was rather scantily dressed. Well, I was not really trolling, but Dave took the bait anyway and told me that he had a few sticks to send my way that could change my mind. I sent him a PM titled “You asked for it” and a few days later, a loud noise was heard and I went upstairs to see my front windows shattered and my mailbox shredded. A half burned and naked mailman was walking back to the truck muttering something about f***ing a**hold cigar terrorists, and I recovered the offending item from the ruble.

Well, I knew that I had my work cut out for me. I was not going to pay back this strike in kind, nor was I just going to sneak back down to my inner sanctum and enjoy these smokes. Noooooooooo. I am a German, and those that have fought against us know how we can be. I went to my closet and slowly put on my black uniform and adjusted my coal shuttle helmet. Armed with my Mauser and the incoming ordinance, I proceeded to craft the cruelest retaliation possible. I would write reviews on these sticks and compare the data to NC data that I had already collected! Forcing not only Dave, but the whole forum to endure reading this rot would be more cruel than bombing him with a box of Cremosas. I guess that I will probably be hung after the war, but that’s how it goes. What follows are the results of my immoral experiments:

First a word about my rating system. I am currently on the second revision to the system. In typical Teutonic fashion, the three systems are not completely compatible. Most of the Cuban cigars that I have tested (Cohibas, RyJ and Punches) were rated using the original scale which was a subjective A – F scale. Since it was heavily weighted on my impression and enjoyment of the cigar, Cuban cigars fared quite poorly. This was often due to the fact that I was paying Black Market prices for them and none of them really were worth the $20.00 a piece that I was paying.

Revision 1 to the rating system still used an A – F scale, but used a set of defined numeric parameters that were totaled and averaged to give the alpha rating. This worked much better and took some of the “feelings” out of the rating (aren’t we Germans something?). Cuban cigars started to fare a bit better under this scale, with the first two tested rating a B+. Some of this could also be that I was better disposed to the two cigars (a Punch and a Bolivar) because they were gifts from a generous member of this list. A couple of months into using this scale, I realized that in addition to the alpha rating, I should also record the final numeric score since it was difficult to tell a high B cigar from a low B cigar. Revision 1a started recording the numeric scale into my logs. The Bolivar was the first recorded with a 3.35 (B+).

By the time of the Klugs Challenge, I had found that Revision 1a suffered from a rather bad weakness. While it was less subjective than Revision 0, it was heavily weighted in favor of construction and physical appearance. I was noticing that even a Dog Rocket could rate a B as long as it looked pretty. Revision 2 corrected this fault and shifted the ratings in favor of performance (burn, smoke, flavor). It also rates each section of the cigar separately, which gives me extra data to satisfy my Teutonic anal retentiveness. I have re-rated my better NC cigars using this scale, and this is the scale that I used to rate 3 out of the 4 cigars sent by Dave.

The first cigar that I tested was a Punch Corona. I was using a later version of Revision 1a to rate this cigar. The Punch did not survive the journey to my house perfectly intact. At first, I thought that I would have to scrub this test. However, this is the first indication of the quality of the Cuban cigars. Even though the wrapper was damaged in several places, the 1998 Punch Corona burned rather well and was full of flavor. In fact, it quite lived up to the name “Punch”. Flavor was strong, with the last 1/3 of the cigar being quite good. I was surprised at how harsh this cigar was given its age, but I say harsh relatively. The cigar was smoother than most NCs. When it was all said and done, the Punch Corona rated 3.52 points for an A-. How does this compare to other cigars? I rated a Havana Punch Punch earlier (Revision 0) at B+, and I found the flavor profiles similar. Both drew rather well and certainly had that “Cuban” flavor. Is this cigar better than the best NC cigars? Not in my book. The average rating that I have given the Montecristo Afrique Machame is 3.63, with a high rating of 3.83. I have rated the Punch (HON) Delux Corona (aged) at 3.64 and the Punch (HON) Royal Coronation at 3.59. I would rate the Royal Coronation as the best match to the Punch (Habana) Corona, and a better value overall. We don’t even need to discuss the super premiums with this one.

The next cigar I rated was a 1998 Partagas 898 NV. This cigar got my attention. Draw was rather hard, but construction was good and taste was everything a Cuban cigar should be. In spite of the excellent flavor, the hard draw made me work to get the flavor. Draw and fullness of flavor were rated below average for the first 2/3 of the stick, and above average for the last 1/3 and passed the band. Actual flavor (taste), when you could get enough smoke to taste it, was excellent. This cigar rated a 3.59 (A-). The 898 is a Long Corona, and I have not rated anything similar as far as NC cigars go. The cigar is certainly a keeper when it comes to taste, but the hard draw does not put it in the same class as the NC cigars that I did manage to compare it against. These were the Hemingway Signature (3.62 average with a high of 3.75) and the Fuente Reserva Superior #3 (average 3.86 with a high of 3.99). Several Montecristo Afriques also scored higher, but the flavor profile is quite different. I would not select an Afrique as a substitute for the 898. I would, however, consider the pervious two cigars as suitable substitutes.

Next, I tested a Vegas Robaina Clasicos from 2003. This is a Lonsdale that is supposed to be from Cuba, but it had me totally fooled. Draw and burn were perfect. DR perfect. Ash was lighter than the two DR cigars I smoked after it (the ash was still in the ash tray so it could be compared to the previous two Cubans and the DRs). I could detect hints of Cuban flavor, but this is also true when I smoke some La Aroma de Cubas from Honduras and some of the Afriques from the DR. I’ll be honest. I believe this is a Cuban because Dave says it is a Cuban, but my taste buds, nose and eyes say DR. Anyway, this is the best drawing and burning Cuban cigar that I have tested so far, and I don’t mean just from this series. Smoke volume and flavor were very good, but not excellent. Flavor built up to a high in the last 1/3 of the cigar, but so did harshness. In the end, I rated this cigar a 3.42 (B+) which is still respectable. I consider a 3.0 (B) to be a darn good cigar. Needless to say, this cigar did not change my view of Cuban cigars, particularly since the cigar that I was using as a comparison is an S. T. DuPont (DR) Tubo which I rated at 3.84 total (3.64 without modifiers).

The next, and last cigar that I rated in this series is the H. Upmann Magnum 46 from 2004. What can I say? Klugs ambushed me here on this one! This is what a cigar is supposed to be. This baby was smooth, mild and flavorful. Harshness was almost not there. Flavor was perhaps not as “Cuban” as the Partagas, but there was no question in my mind where this one came from. I rated the Magnum 46 a solid 3.80 (A). The only cigar that averages higher than this is the Fuente Reserva Superior #3 at 3.86. There are single ratings such as the DuPont and the Afrique Machame that rate higher, but this is not statistically worth mentioning. The Upmann Magnum 46 is a Cuban cigar that I think is worth the hassle of looking for and trying to get. It seems that in this case, the Emperor is far better dressed than I thought.

So, in conclusion, Dave kind of won. While ¾ of the cigars he sent me only reinforced my belief that the Cubans were really no better than the best NCs, the Upmann accomplished what he wanted it to do. I am forced to admit that the best Cuban cigars are at least as good, if not better than the best NCs. It may not seem that it is wise to concede this based on only one cigar, but that is not the whole story. I have tried literally hundreds of different vitolas of NC cigars. I feel confident that I have a good idea of what is a good NC cigar. I have tried only a relative few of the vitolas of Cuba (my records show 7 different ones). If the ratio of good cigars to so-so cigars holds, I am willing to be that there are dozens of Cuban cigars out there that are just as good or better than the Magnum 46. I am not going to make a lifelong effort to find them, but I will retract the statements I have made in earlier posts.


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## LiteHedded (Apr 10, 2005)

punch said:


> Last week, a comment had been made on this list that a couple of us really were not excited about Cuban cigars since the ones that we had sampled were either not up to the best NC cigars, are were not sufficiently better to warrant the extra hassle and cost. I even ended by saying that I felt that the Emperor was rather scantily dressed. Well, I was not really trolling, but Dave took the bait anyway and told me that he had a few sticks to send my way that could change my mind. I sent him a PM titled "You asked for it" and a few days later, a loud noise was heard and I went upstairs to see my front windows shattered and my mailbox shredded. A half burned and naked mailman was walking back to the truck muttering something about f***ing a**hold cigar terrorists, and I recovered the offending item from the ruble.
> 
> Well, I knew that I had my work cut out for me. I was not going to pay back this strike in kind, nor was I just going to sneak back down to my inner sanctum and enjoy these smokes. Noooooooooo. I am a German, and those that have fought against us know how we can be. I went to my closet and slowly put on my black uniform and adjusted my coal shuttle helmet. Armed with my Mauser and the incoming ordinance, I proceeded to craft the cruelest retaliation possible. I would write reviews on these sticks and compare the data to NC data that I had already collected! Forcing not only Dave, but the whole forum to endure reading this rot would be more cruel than bombing him with a box of Cremosas. I guess that I will probably be hung after the war, but that's how it goes. What follows are the results of my immoral experiments:
> 
> ...


wow tough critic.
what say you klugs?


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## Nooner (Feb 22, 2005)

yeah Dave... I hate Cuban Cigars too!!!


Just kidding!!! I've been on the receiving end of your packages in the past and your cigars are as wonderful as you are generous...

Punch, I respect your opinion, but think you must be on crack!!! Although I like NCs of all shapes, sizes and origin, if I was going to generalize, I would say that Cuban Cigars offer me a much better experience than NCs. 

Perhaps if Mo's information is correct, we will see consistent improvements in Habanos as Altadis makes their presence felt to greater degrees your opinion may change as well.


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## Da Klugs (Jan 8, 2005)

I just like the way they taste.  Thought about sending you one of the Mag 46's from 00 but was concerned about disrupting your well developed view of the cigar world.  Interesting your comments on the VR. Came from a box I have been smoking and loving. VR's have a different flavor profile than the others but.. hmm.

I too enjoy NC cigars and have for quite some time. Gave up trying to compare NC and Cuban cigars empirically. Padron 1926 # 6 nats are still the most complex and changing cigars .. cigar after cigar for me. However there are a whole bunch of Cubans in the $ 6-8 range that I think are a better value for the $$.

The best barometer is what you choose to smoke when you have the option. Probably 9:1 Cuban vs. Non Cuban for me lately. You seemed to herf thru them rather quickly as well. :r


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## punch (Mar 5, 2005)

Sorry folks, that is why I use numbers instead of just feelings. Before this becomes another pissing contest, keep in mind that on my scale, 3.0 is a very good cigar. 2.0 would be where most of the better machine made cigars would go. The LOWEST rating I gave one of the Klugs 'gars was a 3.42. Hardly a dog rocket. The highest rated Klugs gar was 3.80. Considering that the highest rating that I have EVER given a cigar 3.99, I'd hardly consider that an insult either. The average score for the 3.99 cigar was 3.86. 0.06 of a point difference is hardly stomping the crap out of something. It is virtually statisically insignificant.

So, I would say that my data would hardly indicate that I "hate" Cuban cigars. The lowest rating that I have recorded for a Cuban that was not plugged is 3.35. The lowest rating that I have for a hand rolled NC is 1.30. THAT is quite a difference. I also have one very popular NC costing $25.00 a shot rated at 2.88.

The advantage of a numerical system is that it takes the hype and emotion out of rating. I have learned quite a bit about my own tastes using this system, and some things about my prejudices. I have stated many times that the Montecristo Afrique Machame is probably my favorite cigar. I found it interesting that when I looked at the data (several tests from several different boxes), I have rated this cigar anywhere from a high of 3.83 to a low of 3.43. What does this mean? It means that at one time or another, I have sat down and objectively rated 26 other cigars higher than I have rated my "favorite" on at least one occasion. I have objectively rated 7 or 8 cigars higher than the average rating for my "favorite" cigar. In other words, I declared the Machame my "favorite" in my own mind based on perhaps one or two very good experiences, and just pushed out of my mind cigars that I had actually enjoyed more.

What else has this system taught me? That I have had a low opinion of Cuban cigars mostly based on a couple of bad experiences and very expensive mistakes. When I look at the data I have recorded on genuine Cuban cigars that I have actually been able to smoke, I have rated them pretty darn high. The numbers do not support my prejudice.

The purpose of this thread was to show how I learned a few things by objective testing. This thanks to the generosity of a couple of good members of this forum, most lately Dave. I hope it is not taken as anything else.


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## punch (Mar 5, 2005)

Da Klugs said:


> However there are a whole bunch of Cubans in the $ 6-8 range that I think are a better value for the $$.
> 
> The best barometer is what you choose to smoke when you have the option. Probably 9:1 Cuban vs. Non Cuban for me lately. You seemed to herf thru them rather quickly as well. :r


I am interested in learning more about the less expensive Cuban cigars, but have not had a lot of luck finding them locally. Seems like all that I can find are the more "popular" ones, and those are at a premium.

As to going through them quickly, I go through a lot of cigars and had some time set aside this last week for testing. I never smoke less than one a day, and most days I go through 3 or 4. Since I did not want to contaminate the ones you sent me, I have been smoking some of my better cigars during the day and using your Cubans for my evening smoke. Now that this experiment is over (for now), I can go back to smoking Punch Elites on the way to work and Punch Royal Coronations on the way home rather than Fuente 858 Maduros on the way to work and Hemingway and DCs on the way home. The latter is too darn hard on my bank account, and Hemingways can sometimes be harder to get than Cubans.

BTW - I really appreciate your help in this. I don't mind having my eyes opened, and I am alway willing to change my opinion when the data supports it.


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## bruceolee (Jun 26, 2005)

Nooner said:


> yeah Dave... I hate Cuban Cigars too!!!


I couldn't agree more. I think they all taste like Castros beard unwashed 2 weeks after a chili eating contest. Especially a monte #2, an epi 1, A Bbf, a PSD4, and a RASS. I think those smoke in particular are the worst period. I mean they certainly don't compare to jr's gallon o' cigars.

This has been a joke. This has only been a joke. If it had been real I would request to find a gun and shoot me. That it all. thank you


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## IHT (Dec 27, 2003)

Da Klugs said:


> However there are a whole bunch of Cubans in the $ 6-8 range that I think are a better value for the $$.





Punch said:


> I am interested in learning more about the less expensive Cuban cigars, but have not had a lot of luck finding them locally. Seems like all that I can find are the more "popular" ones, and those are at a premium.


popular ones also cost $6-8 (actually, the majority of them cost in that range). i have no clue where you were paying $22 per cigar, but you were being raped. no wonder you didn't like them, i wouldn't have either for that price (which is why i don't smoke premium non-cubans - i can't afford it).

i would honestly like to know what makes you rate the non-cuban monte's, arturo fuentes, etc, so highly? just to see where you interpret cuban cigars to be losing out....

i think that's all i'm gonna say.


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## illuminatus (Oct 20, 2005)

Very nice post, thanks for taking the time to write it all out for us. I can't say I hate cuban cigars, as I've never even been in the same room with one. I can say, however, that I feel as a newb, that a cuban (no matter what quality) would be wasted on my palate... but now you've piqued my curiosity.. maybe in a few months I'll find someone to trade with.. Actually, with any luck, I'll be going to canada this summer, and get a few ISOMs there, as they're legal... although I hear the prices are astronomical compared to other places... But hey, who cares, right? It'll be a nice break from work, I'll be able to buy a nice brew (legally!) and just relax... a good brew, a cuban, good company... sounds like heaven  now you got me wanting it to be summer!


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## Jeff (Jan 2, 2005)

punch said:


> I am interested in learning more about the less expensive Cuban cigars, but have not had a lot of luck finding them locally.


I don't think anyone has much luck finding them locally. 

With Cubans, I just can't help thinking that there is a LOT more consistancy among the brands than NCs. Even among 6-8 NC's there are many below par cigars and even a few dog rockets. Dosn't seem to be the case with Cubans.


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## SeanGAR (Jul 9, 2004)

Cubans are different from non-cubans (DUH) and I like them both. 

Smoked a Montecristo No. 1 last night that I rated 3.76808 out of 4, really an excellent smoke. The Partagas Charlotte that I smoked was the first bad one out of the box I've had, quite bitter, and I rated that one 2.17909 (I would have rated any of the others from that box in the 3.46781 range). I rated a Torano Silver robusto 3.01889 and Tampa Sweethearts PC 2.49876. So Cubans were the best and worst of the 4 that I had.


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## galaga (Sep 18, 2003)

"There are only two categories of cigars; those you like and those you don't."

I think about says it all -- there are many makers, from many countries, that have a fine product! Lucky us.


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## galaga (Sep 18, 2003)

SeanGAR said:


> Cubans are different from non-cubans (DUH) and I like them both.
> 
> Smoked a Montecristo No. 1 last night that I rated 3.76808 out of 4, really an excellent smoke. The Partagas Charlotte that I smoked was the first bad one out of the box I've had, quite bitter, and I rated that one 2.17909 (I would have rated any of the others from that box in the 3.46781 range). I rated a Torano Silver robusto 3.01889 and Tampa Sweethearts PC 2.49876. So Cubans were the best and worst of the 4 that I had.


 :r 
You told me once!


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## Nooner (Feb 22, 2005)

punch said:


> Sorry folks, that is why I use numbers instead of just feelings.
> 
> The advantage of a numerical system is that it takes the hype and emotion out of rating.


Punch,

I just kinda object to the idea of an 'objective' numerical based ratings system. There is just no way you can control for all the variables - variations in humidity, variations in weather conditions, variotios in the exercise your palate and constitution have encountered throughout the day - it is just too tough. I would think the only objective things you could possibly rate in a cigar are those that could be measured mechanically in a controlled environment:

You could design a machine to pull a certain volume of air at a certain rate through the cigar - say 1.5 oz(but in science land you'd use cc's wouldn't ya?) and see how many pulls you get out of it - and possbily the resistance to pulls.

Apply a caliper to measure RG vs. advertised RG.

Do some sort of 'squish' measurement

Maybe measure surface tension in some manner...

Not to say that your results are not valid for you, but this is a very subjective hobby, and I don't think the exercise of applying objective measures is very useful or necessarily valid.

Now, there may be a means to get a statistically relevant rating of the cigar.. and that would be by combining MANY standardized(subjective) ratings of the cigars witht he proper statistical analysis.

Now again, I am not disputing the validity of your impressions, nor do I endorse the one cigar over the other, but rather just voicing my opinion that as objective as you have tried to make your measurements they are, by nature, very subjective. The numbers just rate your feelings.


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## Spagg (Mar 24, 2005)

Great post! I like both Cuban and non-cuban cigars. The cubans really do have a distinct flavor that I really enjoy (though I have only had a few..thanks Jeff!!!). However, there a several non-cubans that are great smokes such as all the Padrons, Fuentes, Don Lino Africas (also Don Jefe just turrned me on to a roughly $3.00 cigar, Gran Habano #3, that is outstanding) etc. Its great that there are so many good cigars out there to try, expensive and non-expensive, and they are all a little or a lot different. That is one of the things I enjoy about cigars. Even if you go with one of your staples, each smoke can have its own character and be different from the one you had before.

What a great hobby!


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## opus (Jun 21, 2005)

SeanGAR said:


> Cubans are different from non-cubans (DUH) and I like them both.
> 
> Smoked a Montecristo No. 1 last night that I rated 3.76808 out of 4, really an excellent smoke. The Partagas Charlotte that I smoked was the first bad one out of the box I've had, quite bitter, and I rated that one 2.17909 (I would have rated any of the others from that box in the 3.46781 range). I rated a Torano Silver robusto 3.01889 and Tampa Sweethearts PC 2.49876. So Cubans were the best and worst of the 4 that I had.


I think you are being too harsh on the Monte #1 I would definitely give it a strong 3.7680925


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## Da Klugs (Jan 8, 2005)

SeanGAR said:


> Cubans are different from non-cubans (DUH) and I like them both.
> 
> Smoked a Montecristo No. 1 last night that I rated 3.76808 out of 4, really an excellent smoke. The Partagas Charlotte that I smoked was the first bad one out of the box I've had, quite bitter, and I rated that one 2.17909 (I would have rated any of the others from that box in the 3.46781 range). I rated a Torano Silver robusto 3.01889 and Tampa Sweethearts PC 2.49876. So Cubans were the best and worst of the 4 that I had.


Sean UR such a piece of work. :r Thanks for the laugh. And Punch thanks for sharing your thoughts / metrics on the cigars. I wish I was that organized. Have a hard time finding boxes in my humi much less keep such accurate score.

As our BOTL from the Caribbean would say .. Salud to you my friend!


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## Thurm15 (Jan 28, 2005)

I think R. Perelman from Perelman's Cyclopedia of Havana Cigars sums this subject up best:

_I am often asked "Are Havana Cigars better than all others?" My answer is simple: "They are different" Just as it is hard to compare a Rolls-Royce automobile with a Lamborghini or a Lexus, it is difficult to make a direct comparison between Havana cigars and those of other nations. Both can be excellent and satisfying, but this is one instance where the advertising slogan is correct: "Unicos desde 1492 - Unique since 1492"_


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## Havanaaddict (Jul 6, 2003)

IHT said:


> (which is why i don't smoke premium non-cubans - i can't afford it).


You said it bud  I used to smoke NC when I started smoking 9 years ago but if I try to smoke a NC now I get the taste of metal in my mouth u 
I work at a Cigar shop P/T and can smoke anything I want on the shelves Opus, Padrons 1926/1964, whole line of Fuentes to my tastes they all are :BS I would rather smoke a $3 MM cuban then a $25 opus anyday  It took me prob. 5 years of smoking NCs before I saw the light and gave all my NCs away. I would prob. quite smoking if I could not smoke cubans anymore


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## SeanGAR (Jul 9, 2004)

My normal rating scale.

A+ less than halfway through I order a box

A after smoking one I buy a box

B I enjoy the cigar and want more but don't immediately buy them

C I kinda like the cigar but don't want more

D I dislike the cigar, usually tossed halfway (I feel obligated inmost cases to see if things change by the half-way mark)

F cremosa


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## Jeff (Jan 2, 2005)

SeanGAR said:


> My normal rating scale.
> 
> F cremosa


Informative, yet entertaining.  I have a similar scale. I'd say the bulk of the NCs I try fall into the category of I kinda like them, but wouldn't buy another.


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## Da Klugs (Jan 8, 2005)

SeanGAR said:


> My normal rating scale.
> 
> A+ less than halfway through I order *all available boxes*
> 
> ...


Pretty much my scale.


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## DonJefe (Dec 1, 2003)

Da Klugs said:


> D I dislike the cigar, usually tossed halfway (I feel obligated inmost cases to see if things change by the half-way mark) This is a bridge I have not crossed..


So you smoked an entire Tamboril?


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## SeanGAR (Jul 9, 2004)

DonJefe said:


> So you smoked an entire Tamboril?


I think I smoked 3/4 of both of those .... it was a feat of endurance I have never had to repeat.



> A+ less than halfway through I order all available boxes


I'd be worried that you will soon get a visit from a certain government agency.

Yes, the US geological survey trying to figure out why there is such a strong compressive force on the earth in your area.

Buying all available boxes and stockpiling them can promote earthquakes just from the force acting on the earth's crust.


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## Jeff (Jan 2, 2005)

SeanGAR said:


> Buying all available boxes and stockpiling them can promote earthquakes just from the force acting on the earth's crust.


It is also a national security risk to concentrate so many wonderful smokes in one place. Anyone try to sell you a cigar insurance policy yet?


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## punch (Mar 5, 2005)

IHT said:


> popular ones also cost $6-8 (actually, the majority of them cost in that range). i have no clue where you were paying $22 per cigar, but you were being raped. no wonder you didn't like them, i wouldn't have either for that price (which is why i don't smoke premium non-cubans - i can't afford it).
> 
> i would honestly like to know what makes you rate the non-cuban monte's, arturo fuentes, etc, so highly? just to see where you interpret cuban cigars to be losing out....
> 
> i think that's all i'm gonna say.


Good questions!

I was paying between $10 and $20 a stick at a local establishment that would sell them singly. If you know of a place in Omaha where I can walk in, choose a single stick that I know is real, and pay $6.00, please PM me. I know that I can get them for a lot less on the internet. My usual practice, even with NC cigars, is to try one or two singles, maybe a five pack, and then buy the box if I like them. The price alone is not what sours me on the deal. I've paid $15 - $16 for DC #2s and $10 - $12 for single DC #3 and #4s and I was impressed enough to buy more later by the box, saving considerable money. I am lucky when it comes to Hemingways. One local B&M sells Classics at $6.40 a stick and Short Stories at $4.15 for singles. Needless to say, you'd better be there to get them before I do. Another local B&M sells Signatures for $8.00 a stick and another for around $9.00. After trying these, I buy them by the box from holts for around $6.25 a stick. As I'm sure you are well aware, Cubans work the same way, if you are lucky enough to find the locally.

So, what makes me still want to spring for a box of Don Carlos, Hemingways or Montecristo DR and not the Cubans? Again, good question. For one, I have never had a plugged Don Carlos, or one that I had to relight every four or five puffs. I've never had a "fake" Hemingway, and if I did, I can return it to my dealer or take other legal action without risking my own hind end. I've never had someone confiscate a box of Montecristos from JR and send me a nasty letter about it. I did, however, have someone run over a box with a forklift during delivery, and JR had another box at my doorstep in three days. I have had plugged AF 858s, and I tend not to buy those by the box anymore. Out of hundreds of Punches that I've smoked, I've had two plugged After Dinners. Not to worry, the B&M took care of those, and I don't usually smoke this size anyway.

So, what now. I can see that for the people on this list not fluent in English, I will have to type more slowly and use smaller words. I have never said that I "Hate" Cuban cigars. However, I see that some minds on this list are so small and retarded that if you can't say that Cuban cigars are the absolute best thing that was ever created by man or God, you must hate them. I would never in my wildest dreams thought that rating a Cuban cigar a few hundredths of a point lower than my favorite NC constituted hatred. I'm sorry. When rating Cubans in the future (I still have a few in the humidor that I am letting get past the "sick period", another thing I don't worry about with NCs), I will be sure to add a +10 point Club Stogie modifier to the rating so that nobody's moronic little mind explodes, or thinks that I am smoking crack.

I'm sorry if I have been a bit harsh with this post. A few recent posts on this board have really soured me. I was at one of my favorite local B&Ms this noon having a herf with some of my friends. I could not help the thought going through my mind. The shop owner, who smokes anywhere from 8 to 10 cigars a day, must be such an idiot. He sat there puffing on a Nicaraguan cigar (two actually during the time that I was there) while he had a humidor full of Cubans that he "needed to get around to smoking one day". Another FOG (in the REAL sense of the word) was happily smoking on the same Honduran bundle cigar (rolled back in 1998) that I was. Poor old fellow is not "experienced" per the wise sages on this list. He has been smoking cigars for over 50 years (yes, he is in his 70s) and remembers when even US machine made cigars were made with Cuban tobacco. I've never seen him with a maduro wrapper, poor inexperienced newbie. Always the same EMS Nicaraguan and Hondurans, with a few DRs thrown in. The old Doctor sitting next to me must also be on crack. EMS Hondurans for him. I'm sure that he, in his 60's and smoking cigars as long as he can remember, would be a neophite on this list having the shop owner fill his humidor for him every week with those nasty EMS wrapped Hondurans. I guess that I was the only newbie there this morning, having only smoked cigars on and off for 25 years and "only" smoking three or four a day.

I'm sorry that I have wasted my time sharing my ignorance with all of you experts, and I promise to behave in the future. I am going to go downstairs to my humidor and worship my remaining Cuban cigars, singing praises to them and begging forgiveness for my terrible sins. Then I will try to stay away from the morons that I normally herf with and spend more of my time here posting jokes and and three word posts so that I can get more 'nanners and ring gauge instead of wasting hours of my time trying to be helpful.


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## IHT (Dec 27, 2003)

punch said:


> Good questions!
> 
> I was paying between $10 and $20 a stick at a local establishment that would sell them singly. If you know of a place in Omaha where I can walk in, choose a single stick that I know is real, and pay $6.00, please PM me.
> *IHT - where can you buy legit cuban cigars in Omaha?*
> ...


is it me, or are you just trying to be a prick?
seriously, you quote me, who had a nice and civil reply, asking you YOUR OPINION on what gives your other cigars a "bump" in your ratings. simple fuggin question. doesn't involve ANYTHING about someone being a newbie, or that you're on crack, or any other :BS you just spewed (that i am taking as being directed at me - as you quoted my post).

this is what i asked:  would honestly like to know what makes you rate the non-cuban monte's, arturo fuentes, etc, so highly? just to see where you interpret cuban cigars to be losing out....

simple question, nothing "snobbish" about it. where do you see the cuban cigars that you've smoked to be losing out in relation to non-cuban cigars you've smoked? is it construction, taste, burn, what?

did that question garner the response you gave? i don't think so....


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## SeanGAR (Jul 9, 2004)

punch said:


> If you know of a place in Omaha where I can walk in, choose a single stick that I know is real, and pay $6.00, please PM me.


I know a place you can order singles online and have them at your door in less than a week .... but after reading this post I'm not likely to let you know where.



> I am lucky when it comes to Hemingways.


I've been unlucky. Poor construction, with wrappers falling off and poor draws prevent me from smoking more of these.



> Needless to say, you'd better be there to get them before I do.


Why? I think they're overpriced and mediocre. Buy them up .. ain't gonna bother me.



> As I'm sure you are well aware, Cubans work the same way, if you are lucky enough to find the locally.


I would be shocked if there are people getting genuine cubans locally anywhere in the US.



> So, what now. I can see that for the people on this list not fluent in English, I will have to type more slowly and use smaller words.


Ooh ... condescending drivel. How quaint. Did you think of that all by yourself?



> I have never said that I "Hate" Cuban cigars. However, I see that some minds on this list are so small and retarded that if you can't say that Cuban cigars are the absolute best thing that was ever created by man or God, you must hate them.


Dude, the meds are wearing off. I'd recommend a double dose of whatever the men in white coats give you. They DO know you're accessing a computer, don't they?



> I would never in my wildest dreams thought that rating a Cuban cigar a few hundredths of a point lower than my favorite NC constituted hatred.


Well, I doubt you or anybody else has a rating system that has 2 significant digits, let alone three. It seemed to me from your posts that you liked the Cubans although they weren't way better than the NCs that you smoke. I like Cubans, I like non-cubans. Like somebody already posted, they're different. You've said what a lot of people think. Some people disagree. Is there a problem with that?



> I'm sorry. When rating Cubans in the future (I still have a few in the humidor that I am letting get past the "sick period", another thing I don't worry about with NCs), I will be sure to add a +10 point Club Stogie modifier to the rating so that nobody's moronic little mind explodes, or thinks that I am smoking crack.


Uh .... is that what has been rotting your bag?

Its an expression ... "you're on crack" ... "you're on weed" .... same as "you're crazy" or "I disagree".



> I'm sorry if I have been a bit harsh with this post.


Everybody is an ass sometime. Today is your day.



> I'm sorry that I have wasted my time sharing my ignorance with all of you experts, and I promise to behave in the future.


No, its the snotty condescending crap in posts like yours that add to the drama around here. Thank YOU!



> Then I will try to stay away from the morons that I normally herf with and spend more of my time here posting jokes and and three word posts so that I can get more 'nanners and ring gauge instead of wasting hours of my time trying to be helpful.


You go boy


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## IHT (Dec 27, 2003)

ah, i just re-read some other peoples replies that actually DID say you were on crack, and inferred that you hated cuban cigars...
don't understand why you quoted my reply though?

here's a little story:
my boss gave me a macanudo for my first cigar a long while back, and that's what got me on 'em. fast forward to now, and this guy is still smoking padron 3000M and LGC Serie Rs, that he must not take very good care of because they're always hard as rocks, and very harsh (he always gives me one at work when we're on the road). i know his favorite cuban cigar is an HdM Epicure #2, so i have given him a few of them while we've been on the road (and some others - like a PSD4).

well, while smoking one of my last epi 2s that i gave him, i asked how it was. keep in mind, this was from the best cabinet i've ever had of them, and he says, "mmnya... a little mild, nothing like my La Glorias."
 

i have just come to the understanding that his tastebuds are fried. i have smoked the VERY SAME cigars he has/does, because he's shared them with me at the same time he's smoking them from the same box! they are fuggin horrid. coppertop can back me up on this, cuz he's smoked them as well (although he won't read this). so, i just don't give the guy cigars anymore, he won't be able to taste them.

no, i'm not relating this to YOU, but it made me think about your 70 yr old friend. some people just LIKE WHAT THEY LIKE.... i've had plenty a nicaraguan bundle cigar, and talked to a guy down here in puerto rico smoking a flor de oliva bundle at the bar a few nights back.... not a problem with them.

hell, a retired colonel i work with smokes total dog rockets, they stink and have to be the cheapest made cigars i've ever seen. he loves 'em. he even has a "cigar saver" and walks around with a half smoked dog rocket that's been in a tube for 2 days hanging out his mouth. that's just what this guy likes. not a big deal.

not saying those are your buddies, just your description of these long time smokers got me to thinking of my boss... 

if that's what someone likes, that's what someone likes.


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## Danimal (Jun 6, 2004)

Nooner said:


> but this is a very subjective hobby


That's all it boils down to.


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## DonWeb (Jul 3, 2005)

IHT said:


> ...people LIKE WHAT THEY LIKE....





Danimal said:


> That's all it boils down to.


sage words...


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## punch (Mar 5, 2005)

IHT said:


> ah, i just re-read some other peoples replies that actually DID say you were on crack, and inferred that you hated cuban cigars...
> don't understand why you quoted my reply though?
> 
> if that's what someone likes, that's what someone likes.


That was my mistake. I should have vented on a separate post rather than tacking it on to my reply to you since it was not your questions that set me off. You and I have always been able to discuss this matter in a rather civil manner.

The last sentence of the above quote sums up very well and very simply what I have been trying to say all along. When you throw out the subjective areas, there is not much difference between a good cigar from Cuba and a good cigar from anywhere else. What makes one better than the other IS the subjective data. Whether or not a cigar burns razor sharp or not is objective data and easily measured. Whether or not this data means anything to you is subjective. If one cigar burns with 6 inches of ash and another burns with only one before the ash falls off is objective data and can be measured. Whether or not you give a $hit about ash is subjective. Taste? How do you even measure this objectively? You cannot. Totally a matter of opinion. And to make matters even more complicated, how you or I weigh each objective point is subjective. I rate consistency VERY high. The fact that I have found 99.999% of the quality NCs that I have tried at least smokeable and about half of the Cubans that I have tried either plugged or so hard drawing as to be hard to smoke is just a simple fact of my testing. That matters to me and keeps me from rushing out to buy several boxes of Cubans sight unseen. But this is because I find the flavor of the Cubans either as good or slightly better than my favorite NCs. A person who (and there are obviously many) who finds the flavor of the Cuban significantly better than any NC will gladly put up with a few plugged cigars here and there to get what is important to him. I certainly understand that and have no problem with that. Also, value is a perception rather than a reality. If a person's income is limited, they may weigh certain criteria more heavily than someone who can easily afford to throw away two or three cigars out of every box. Space is another consideration. A person who has a walk in humidor and can afford to buy several boxes at a time at a reasonable price can afford to let large numbers of cigars sit for years until they are perfect. A person with a small storage capacity will either have to invest a greater sum to get vintage smokes, or learn to like sticks that he can smoke fresh.

All of the above contribute to the difference of opinion between one camp and the other. To start with, I know of no person who has smoked cigars for any period of time that "hates" Cuban cigars. They are the standard by which all other cigars are measured. I think this is so obvious that I do not mention it in every post. The people that I have spoken to that agree with my point of view (provided they take the time to understand it) are simply saying that, objectively, there is little difference between the Cubans and the best NC cigars. That is all. Like you so accurately said, it all really boils down to what someone likes. And like you and I have agreed to in the past, if you were to take my rating system, you would likely come up with numbers not much different than I. However, your tastes would drive the numbers for Cuban cigars up a few fractions of a point, and with so few fractions between cigars on my scale, the Cubans would likely be on top. But these numbers would probably mean little to you as you will continue to buy what you like regardless of the numbers. Just as the numbers really do not dictate what I buy. They simply tell me what burned good and tasted good to me, allowing me to give someone an idea of what MAY be a good cigar for them. Since there are a very large number of cigars that I like, it often just boils down to what is on sale at the time for me.

BTW - thanks for taking the time to read and understand the situation before you dinged my ring gauge, not that it really matters. I guess that I deserved that for being upset at having my work ridiculed and being told that I was on crack. So much for the "no snob" policy.

And Dave - once again thanks for your kindness in sending me the cigars. I am very sorry that your act of kindness resulted like this. Neither of us intended it this way. From now on, I'll keep my opinions to myself.


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## punch (Mar 5, 2005)

Some last comments before I put this subject to bed:

1) If I have been a bit snippy, I am sorry. I should not post after midnight, nor should I post when angry. Nothing good comes from this.

2) I looked at my ratings as compared to Top25Cigar ratings for the same cigars. I calculated a ratio that would put my ratings into a 10 point scale similar to the T25C scale. They are weighted slightly different, but since I used the T25C scale when making my original numeric rating system, they are close enough for what we are doing. The following are my results:

Cigar / My rating / My rating converted / T25C rating

H. Upmann Magnum 46 / 3.80 / 9.50 / 9.16
Partagas 898 / 3.59 / 8.98 / 8.15
Punch Corona / 3.52 / 8.8 / NA
VR Clasicos / 3.42 / 8.55 / 8.59
Bolivar PC / 3.35 / 8.38 / 8.50

I do not have numeric data recorded for the Cohibas, Punch, Montecristos or the one Romeo y Julieta that I scored. These used the old alpha system. I will be rating my remaining stocks of these soon.

What does this tell me? For one, I rated the Upmann and Partagas higher than the T25C database average. I could not find an exact match for the Punch corona. However, my equivalent rating of 8.8 is higher than the ratings for most of the Cuban Punches in the T25C database. My rating for the VR is so close to the T25C rating as to be nearly equal. Only the Bolivar was rated lower, and even this is not by much. So, I would think that this should put the issue of whether or not I like or dislike Cuban cigars to bed for once and for all, at least for rational people.

It seems that where I run afoul of things is that I ALSO like quite a few non-Cuban cigars. I really don't know what to do about this other than to continue to enjoy them.


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## Nooner (Feb 22, 2005)

punch said:


> So, I would think that this should put the issue of whether or not I like or dislike Cuban cigars to bed for once and for all, at least for rational people.


I resent that you would think I could be rational... as such, it is obvious that you HATE Cuban Cigars and should be lynched!

:tg


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## SeanGAR (Jul 9, 2004)

Nooner said:


> I resent that you would think I could be rational... as such, it is obvious that you HATE Cuban Cigars and should be lynched!
> 
> :tg


Don't worry ... he was talking about somebody else.


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## galaga (Sep 18, 2003)

punch said:


> Some last comments before I put this subject to bed:
> 
> 1) If I have been a bit snippy, I am sorry. I should not post after midnight, nor should I post when angry. Nothing good comes from this.
> 
> ...


I would respectfully disagre. Why do you "run afoul" b/c you like non-cuban cigars? Some people don't like non-cuban cigars. As an example, IHT doesn't like them b/c they taste metallic. Although I have had some bad cigars, none of them tasted metallic to me; some, or all?, non-cuban cigars taste metallic to him. IHT has said he has never tasted leather in a cigar, something which I have tasted many times. I have never tasted cream, a flavor many have used to decribe a cigar. IHT has made the point that he can get some nice cuban cigars in the $5 range and great cigars in the $8-$12 range and I would whole heartedly agree. I should add that I am getting some nice non-cubans in the $1-$4 range that don't have to worry the wife about getting a $50,000 fine. But the majority of the new people on the board like non-cubans because that is what they are smoking. They may come here trying to get the cuban cigars but they are smoking non-cubans and enjoying them or they wouldn't still be smoking. If nooner offended you b/c he said you must be on crack, I'm sure he was speaking off the cuff, as he would to a friend of his. If Sean offended you with his "crack" about he extended number of digits past the decimal point, realize that he was making a wise-ass remark about himself as much as you b/c no one has more reviews of cigars on top25.com than Sean. If you take the time to smoke some of the cigars he has smoked, and you have hundreds to choose from, you will have a great resource for buying/trying new cigars that you will have a very good chance of liking. What a great time/money saver! If you were offended that I laughed at his joke, I'm sorry, but it was funny and I was laughing as much at me, as I was the joke. I can be a little anal too. If you think we are being snobbish, all I can say is maybe we are, but maybe we're not. Remember, this is your board as much as it is anybody's board. Its an open discussion about cigars and Dave gave you a great gift in some very nice cigars that he enjoys. You like them or you don't. You discussed them and so did we. It's what the board is about! You run afoul in being thin skinned. I never attruibute to malice by what can be attributed to thoughtlessness or if it really pisses me off, I attribute it to stupidity. Piss me off enough times and I will think your trying to piss me off, but off the cuff remarks, you are still a good guy, but your just not thinking correctly at the moment. After the passage of some time, I realize about half the time it was I who was thinking incorrectly/stupidly. :w
ps, thx for the reviews and sticking up to the snobbish sobs who worship their cuban cigars and say that non-cubans are a load of crap


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## SeanGAR (Jul 9, 2004)

galaga said:


> ...non-cubans are a load of crap


Thats just not true ..... is this the 5 minute or the full half-hour...


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## IHT (Dec 27, 2003)

galaga said:


> As an example, IHT doesn't like them b/c they taste metallic.
> *IHT - that's not true. i do like "some" non-cuban cigars (trilogy authentic corojo - a cheap-ass cigar, my favorite; oliva master blends are my 2nd favortie) and not all of them have a metallic aftertaste (but the CAO MX2 is one that is nothing but rusty steel).*
> Although I have had some bad cigars, none of them tasted metallic to me; some, or all?, non-cuban cigars taste metallic to him. IHT has said he has never tasted leather in a cigar, something which I have tasted many times. I have never tasted cream, a flavor many have used to decribe a cigar.
> *IHT - i've tasted cinnamon cookie dough type of flavors before, although not even close in a non-cuban cigar. i have no clue what "leather" in a cigar tastes like. i always picture what my baseball mit strings would taste like as i stood out there at shortstop between pitches, and it wasn't good.*
> ...


that part cracks me up. txmatt called me a cuban cigar snob and i'm nowhere near one. i smoke what i like... i happen to like the "flavor" (which is why i smoke cigars - who smokes a cigar because it looks perty?) of cuban cigars over non-cuban.
seangar sent me a few "prof sila" cigars to try, and i ended up buying a whole box off c-bid (a whopping $10 for the box), and i smoked right through them. i still have a few perdomo2 mistakes left over.... yep, i'm a cuban cigar snob, and a right winged bigot, so i've been told), although i'm nowhere near either in reality.

but this wasn't about me anyway.
there are cuban cigars i'm not a fan of. you won't see my buying/smoking any H. Upmanns any time soon, and only a few vitolas from the RyJ line...


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## galaga (Sep 18, 2003)

IHT said:


> that part cracks me up. txmatt called me a cuban cigar snob and i'm nowhere near one. i smoke what i like... i happen to like the "flavor" (which is why i smoke cigars - who smokes a cigar because it looks perty?) of cuban cigars over non-cuban.
> 
> you're not a cuban cigar snob, you're a pipe snob, Prince Albert in a can!
> 
> ...


Hey, you mis-quoted me, you left off the  :fu


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## galaga (Sep 18, 2003)

SeanGAR said:


> Thats just not true ..... is this the 5 minute or the full half-hour...


 Its the full 300.0030 x 10e3 milliseconds

Cut to PDS.
PDS Another man whose head was set on fire was SeanGar O'Tracey.

Cut to another younger more cheerful man on a sofa.

galaga: SeanGar, I've been told Kansasshat Piranha set your foot on fire.

SeanGar: No, no. Never, never. He was a smashing bloke. He used to give his mother flowers and that. He was like a brother to me.

galaga: But the police have film of Kansasshat actually setting your foot on fire.

SeanGar:Oh yeah, well - he did that, yeah.

galaga: Why?

SeanGar:Well he had to, didn't he? I mean, be fair, there was nothing else he could do. I mean, I had transgressed the unwritten law.

galaga: What had you done?

SeanGar:Er... Well he never told me that. But he gave me his word that it was the case, and that's good enough for me with old Shatsy. I mean, he didn't want to set me foot on fire. I had to insist. He even wanted to piss on me to put me out. There's nothing Kansasshat wouldn't do for you.

galaga: And you don't bear him any grudge?

SeanGar:A grudge! Old Shatsy? He was a real darling.

galaga: I understand he also set your wife's foot on fire. Isn't that right Mrs O' Tracey?

Camera pans to show woman holding a lit cigar.

Mrs O' Tracey: Oh, no. No. No.

SeanGar: Yeah, well, he did do that. Yeah, yeah. He was a cruel man,............ but fair


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## Nooner (Feb 22, 2005)

are you on crack too?



galaga said:


> Its the full 300.0030 x 10e3 milliseconds
> 
> Cut to PDS.
> PDS Another man whose head was set on fire was SeanGar O'Tracey.
> ...


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## Mutant (Nov 11, 2005)

Nooner said:


> are you on crack too?


Are we talkin ISOM crack or NC crack??? 

Outta here! :z

Regards


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## altbier (Feb 20, 2005)

> When you throw out the subjective areas, there is not much difference between a good cigar from Cuba and a good cigar from anywhere else. What makes one better than the other IS the subjective data.


It is all a mater of taste. I personally have a bad taste for cubans right now! 

(the the 868 varnished i got at the shack was incredible!)

hype is hype, go with what you like/love. your signature says it all.

cheers!


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## galaga (Sep 18, 2003)

Nooner said:


> are you on crack too?


Hey if your gonna p#ss people off, then do it right. :bx


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## Blackknight (Dec 20, 2003)

Still looking for the original challenge document. Intriguing idea. The question however should be are Cubans worth the money. I would love to know where sticks can be had for 6-8$ or $100-185 a box? I see them going for much more than that at the sources I've found. I have very limited experience with Cubans (would like to grow that). I will be more concerned with rating the cigars on individual merit v. against all NCs. I want to smoke all the great cigars I can regardless of origin. :2 :gn


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## awhitaker (Sep 23, 2005)

I give this thread/cigar a 9.0239. I took off 0.0039 points because I haven't been able to finish the last third of the cigar. The beginning was definitely surprising. Pre-draw led me to believe it might be rewarding but I was kind of disappointed in the outcome. The middle third popped out of nowhere. It was bitter, trite, shocking, and very bland. I'm just beginning the third and it seems to be mellowing out. I'll edit this post when I finish the 3rd page...I mean 3rd part of the cigar.


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## cmiller (Sep 8, 2005)

awhitaker said:


> I give this thread/cigar a 9.0239. I took off 0.0039 points because I haven't been able to finish the last third of the cigar. The beginning was definitely surprising. Pre-draw led me to believe it might be rewarding but I was kind of disappointed in the outcome. The middle third popped out of nowhere. It was bitter, trite, shocking, and very bland. I'm just beginning the third and it seems to be mellowing out. *I'll edit this post when I finish the 3rd page*...I mean 3rd part of the cigar.


 :r

Manly men surf at 40 posts per page rather than the default of 20. making this barely a 2 page thread.


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## IHT (Dec 27, 2003)

cmiller said:


> Manly men surf at 40 posts per page rather than the default of 20. making this barely a 2 page thread.


right on.


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## Nooner (Feb 22, 2005)

cmiller said:


> :r
> 
> Manly men surf at 40 posts per page rather than the default of 20. making this barely a 2 page thread.


ooo... I would like to surf at 40 posts per page... but whenever I make that change it never seems to stick... how can I do that!!!


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