# Zeolite to remove ammonia?



## uvacom (Oct 29, 2008)

So it seems common knowledge that newer cigars can sometimes give off an ammonia scent. This smells and tastes bad and detracts from the cigar's experience. But it also seems that cigars, being absorbant as they are, will continue to reabsorb ammonia if they are kept in closed air, as they usually are. This has led me to thinking that some way of eliminating the ammonia could really help accelerate the "resting" period for cigars as it would not rely on refreshment of the air supply (by opening and closing the humidor) and by natural processes in cigars which break down ammonia. 

Zeolite is a microporous mineral which can act as a molecular sieve - it can filter out specific molecules based on the size and shape of its pores. It is used in aquarium keeping because of its ability to filter out ammonia, which is harmful to fish. It's inexpensive, long-lasting, and fairly effective. 

Has anybody ever used zeolite in their humidor and found it to reduce ammonia? I've never read anything about it for this application - I'm assuming to really work well some airflow would need to be established so as to pull air through the zeolite.


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## mrreindeer (Sep 4, 2008)

Wow, never heard of this but it's a very interesting idea you've got there newb.  Excellent post. :tu I'm very curious to see what others say.


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## tzaddi (Feb 24, 2007)

Some helpful links to help us determine if Zeolite will do the job and what particular form and application of this naturally occurring mineral should be used.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeolite
http://www.iza-structure.org/databases/
http://mineral.galleries.com/minerals/Silicate/ZEOLITES.htm
http://www.zeoponix.com/zeolite.htm

This link show the most promise, it concerns removing ammonia from the air as it relates to animal waste.
http://www.nontoxic.com/zeoliteodor/zeoliteodorcontrol.html

There is an indication that certain forms absorb moisture so it might be counter productive, but it is readily available and safe to use in certain forms.

I will be doing a little research on my own but thought I would put this here to help anybody else that is interested.

Here is a site that sells it for odor removal. About $10 in 1 lb bags or cheaper for larger quantities.
http://www.allergystore.com/odorcontrol.htm


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## ucla695 (Jun 27, 2006)

Very interesting indeed. I hope it wouldn’t absorb some of the beautiful cigar aroma too.


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## raralith (Sep 26, 2008)

Well, the reason why the amonia goes away after the sick period is because of the fermentation. Fermentation is literally the break down of molecules, and that breakdown is what gives a cigar it's taste. The longer the fermentation (aging), the better most cigars get. By removing that additional amonia, you might be taking away the raw materials needed for some great aging. It seems that removing the amonia would only make a fresh stick smell less like amonia. Honestly, I don't think there is a secret or material that will speed up this process.

If you did want to get rid of that amonia smell faster, it's recommended by Nee to just air your cigars in their appropriate environment. More oxygen means faster fermentation, but it damages the aging process. While Zeolite might remove the amonia, airing out cigars will give you the same result.


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## mrreindeer (Sep 4, 2008)

ucla695 said:


> Very interesting indeed. I hope it wouldn't absorb some of the beautiful cigar aroma too.


Very good point.

It'd be great to get some of this for my humi & the cat box; kill two birds with one stone!


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## uvacom (Oct 29, 2008)

tzaddi said:


> Some helpful links to help us determine if Zeolite will do the job and what particular form and application of this naturally occurring mineral should be used.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeolite
> http://www.iza-structure.org/databases/
> ...


Thanks! I've also found products like this - http://lawn-and-garden.hardwarestore.com/76-478-cat-litter-and-boxes/zeolite-air-filter-115417.aspx - that I think would work well and could be trimmed down to size, probably placed on the floor or ceiling of a humidor. It also specifically claims ammonia removal.

The moisture removal is a concern, but I would imagine that such a filter will have a saturation point so I don't think there would be a continual RH drop if one were used.

I'm using a large cooler as my humidor right now, so my plan is to mount a PC case fan to the ceiling (the lid is recessed), and place the filter in front of it. I think that will lift air fairly uniformly through the humidor, helping to distribute RH and pulling the ammonia through the filter.



ucla695 said:


> Very interesting indeed. I hope it wouldn't absorb some of the beautiful cigar aroma too.


 I've thought about this, and from what I've read it's quite possible it might. So (assuming this even works) it's probably best to only use such a filter when ammonia odor is present. Considering right now the primary means of ammonia removal is air refreshment (which probably also affects the aroma potency long term) it seems like a good compromise to me.


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## uvacom (Oct 29, 2008)

raralith said:


> Well, the reason why the amonia goes away after the sick period is because of the fermentation. Fermentation is literally the break down of molecules, and that breakdown is what gives a cigar it's taste. The longer the fermentation (aging), the better most cigars get. By removing that additional amonia, you might be taking away the raw materials needed for some great aging. It seems that removing the amonia would only make a fresh stick smell less like amonia. Honestly, I don't think there is a secret or material that will speed up this process.
> 
> If you did want to get rid of that amonia smell faster, it's recommended by Nee to just air your cigars in their appropriate environment. More oxygen means faster fermentation, but it damages the aging process. While Zeolite might remove the amonia, airing out cigars will give you the same result.


Well, that's a good counter-hypothesis. But do we really know that ammonia is beneficial in this process? Or is it just an unfortunate byproduct? The Zeolite could remove the ammonia without excessive oxygenation.

This is a good thought though. *If* the ammonia is in the long-term a beneficial aging compound, we don't want to get rid of it at all.

*edit* An article in CA about tobacco fermentation refers to ammonia as an "impurity". The manufacturers seem to want to eliminate it. 
http://www.cigaraficionado.com/Cigar/CA_Daily/CA_Hot_Tip/0,2347,449,00.html


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## raralith (Sep 26, 2008)

For CC's at least, excess amonia is mainly due to wetting the cigar when rolling whcih promotes fermentation. I would think though that it would be a very beneficial byproduct for two reasons, 1) In an airtight container (aluminum tube), an aged stick doesn't smell of amonia even if it did young. It didn't jsut disappear if it was airtight, I would believe it would be broken down. 2) Oxygenation, airing out cigars, speeds up fermentation and gets rid of the amonia faster, but it hinders aging. 

It all comes down to what you believe. Personally, I side more with Min Nee more than CA simply because Nee breaks a lot of it down into chemistry. And yeah, of course tabacoo growers want to eliminate amonia, it reaks! But again, a amonia is removed from from the baling process, but a lot of that amonia we take a whiff of is from that wetting of the tabacoo leaf for rolling.


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## uvacom (Oct 29, 2008)

raralith said:


> For CC's at least, excess amonia is mainly due to wetting the cigar when rolling whcih promotes fermentation. I would think though that it would be a very beneficial byproduct for two reasons, 1) In an airtight container (aluminum tube), an aged stick doesn't smell of amonia even if it did young. It didn't jsut disappear if it was airtight, I would believe it would be broken down. 2) Oxygenation, airing out cigars, speeds up fermentation and gets rid of the amonia faster, but it hinders aging.
> 
> It all comes down to what you believe. Personally, I side more with Min Nee more than CA simply because Nee breaks a lot of it down into chemistry. And yeah, of course tabacoo growers want to eliminate amonia, it reaks! But again, a amonia is removed from from the baling process, but a lot of that amonia we take a whiff of is from that wetting of the tabacoo leaf for rolling.


Do you have any references to Min Nee? I'm not claiming answers, I'm developing a hypothesis which I will test. I'd like as much information as possible. 

I don't think it's down to belief, absolutely it's down to chemistry. The ammonia is a byproduct of decay.


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## raralith (Sep 26, 2008)

It's all in his book, but I made a cliff notes version of it - http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showthread.php?t=201437


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## Mark C (Sep 19, 2007)

uvacom said:


> The moisture removal is a concern, but I would imagine that such a filter will have a saturation point so I don't think there would be a continual RH drop if one were used.


Water can act as a contaminant in some materials and block the adsorption sites from other compounds. I can't say for certain, but I'd hazard a guess that this may be a show-stopper for zeolite in a humidor. Maybe Shilala will wander in here and offer an opinion, he seems to know all kinds of cool stuff about adsorbent materials.


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## uvacom (Oct 29, 2008)

Mark C said:


> Water can act as a contaminant in some materials and block the adsorption sites from other compounds. I can't say for certain, but I'd hazard a guess that this may be a show-stopper for zeolite in a humidor. Maybe Shilala will wander in here and offer an opinion, he seems to know all kinds of cool stuff about adsorbent materials.


I think at least some kinds of zeolite won't be bothered by this - as I've said, it's used in aquariums. If you've ever seen it, it's not a soft material. Anyway, I'm going to stick some in the humi tomorrow and see what happens. I really don't think it can hurt anything.


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## tzaddi (Feb 24, 2007)

uvacom said:


> I think at least some kinds of zeolite won't be bothered by this - as I've said, it's used in aquariums. If you've ever seen it, it's not a soft material. Anyway, I'm going to stick some in the humi tomorrow and see what happens. I really don't think it can hurt anything.


You go "uvacom", in the name of science and all things of exploration and adventure. Please report your findings. :tu


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## raralith (Sep 26, 2008)

Eh, unless it's a CC, it's going to take a long time to make a difference. Most NC's are already aged, some for years. CC's are pretty fresh uless you buy them vintage.


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

Sounds like fun. :tu
Set up a couple control groups, will you, uvacom?
A set with zeolite, and a set that you open and close naturally so that you can test the taste and make comparisons?
I've never looked at zeolite as a sieve. My guess is that as an adsorbant it'll seek an equilibrium with the cigars and beads, so aside from providing it extra moisture it shouldn't cause a problem RH-wise.
To go one better, why not find a clay sieve that's the right size to scavenge ammonia and check it's hysteresis curves and see if it can also serve as your dessicant/rh control?
If you find out what size sieve adsorbs ammonia I'd like to know. If I wasn't so busy right this moment I'd already have looked. 

Just checked.
HCM beads adsorb ammonia perfectly. I answered my own question and I already did all the curve tests. Just never considered the ammonia aspect.


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## uvacom (Oct 29, 2008)

Interesting, I was just about to order some HCM anyway.That's good to know. But long term, would the HCM beads reach equilibrium with the atmospheric ammonia in a humidor? If using HCM for ammonia collection, it seems like it might be smart to cycle the HCM to prevent that. Unless it's a situation where it can scavenge ammonia continuously.


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## rayray812 (Sep 9, 2008)

tzaddi said:


> Some helpful links to help us determine if Zeolite will do the job and what particular form and application of this naturally occurring mineral should be used.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeolite
> http://www.iza-structure.org/databases/
> ...


10 bucks a pound?!?!?!??! wow im in the wrong biz, zeolite is a common swimming pool filter media..... 100lbs i pick up for 22 dollars....


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## tzaddi (Feb 24, 2007)

rayray812 said:


> 10 bucks a pound?!?!?!??! wow im in the wrong biz, zeolite is a common swimming pool filter media..... 100lbs i pick up for 22 dollars....


From my brief research there appears to be many grades and variations in this class of mineral. Not too dissimilar from the variations in silica gel which has been the subject of many a discussion around here.

Whether you are in wrong biz or not that is a question we all come to ask ourselves now and again I am sure you will find resolve


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

uvacom said:


> Interesting, I was just about to order some HCM anyway.That's good to know. But long term, would the HCM beads reach equilibrium with the atmospheric ammonia in a humidor? If using HCM for ammonia collection, it seems like it might be smart to cycle the HCM to prevent that. Unless it's a situation where it can scavenge ammonia continuously.


If I was using HCM beads for ammonia collection, all I would need to do is boil the beads in (distilled) saltwater to remove the ammonia.
Then I'd need to boil the beads in distilled water to clean the salt.
Then I'd need to steam the beads to make sure they were back to normal.

A pound of beads would harvest an absolutely incredible amount of free ammonia. Before assuming that they could ever become saturated in the minimal ammonia environment that is a humi, a guy would have to look at the actual volume of ammonia in cigars that will be released to the humi.
I know that few of the cigars I order are ammonia laden. I don't put them in my humi, I put them in humi-jars.
That said, in my mind, I doubt the beads would ever become ammonia laden in my lifetime. But that's me.
If a guy buys nothing but fresh, soaking wet, barnyard stinking Olivas and tosses them right in his humi, who knows? (I love Olivas, btw.) That's where an ammonia volume study would come in handy. I don't have time to do that right now, but it'd be nice.

So far as ammonia reaching equilibrium, I'm not sure how the beads attach themselves to the ammonia molecules. I'd be more inclined to think that any free space will bind the ammonia rather than just attract. A stronger bond, so to speak. The action of vapor equilibrium would continually move the air back and forth across and into the beads, allowing them to draw in the ammonia and bind it.
That's merely conjecture though, as I haven't taken any time to study it.
I'd be pretty surprised if that's not exactly what's happening. (because I think I've already read it and it's filed under "can't use this right now")

I'm still on the fence as to whether it's worthwhile to chase (or create) the data. There's such a small percentage of people who can truly use the ammonia scavenging properties to their advantage, at least as more than a "value added bonus".
Once data is collected, it'd likely be far cheaper to open the humi once every few months than to buy any extra volume of beads.

I'm not sure if everyone would want to use enough beads to "suck" ammonia out of their cigars, either. Gathering free ammonia that cigars let go naturally, as opposed to adding enough beads to create a zero-ammonia environment that effectively "sucks" ammonia from cigars is another thing.
The hygroscopic nature of cigars is only going to let go of ammonia as quickly as they'll let it go, no matter what. But if equilibrium is stopping them from letting go of their ammonia, they'll continue to ferment, wouldn't they?
That's what I'm unsure of.
Is the tobacco in cigars still fermenting, creating the ammonia, or is this just ammonia trapped by the cigar rolling process in wet cigars.
We need Richard to answer this one. ^
I'd think that if I was long storing cigars I'd want to provide x amount of oxygen over a long period of time, thus "slow-aging". Thought might be that the ammonia is necessary to fuel the process.
Once again, I don't know. Richard may be able to help with that train of thought, too.

So I'm not sure if ammonia scavenging is good, bad, or moot.
Being that opening the door or lid is so easy, I'm leaning towards moot.


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## tzaddi (Feb 24, 2007)

Far from an expert, like those of you that are reading this I have a desire to learn the "nuts & bolts" of the vehicle that carries us down the tobacco road.

Rather can pontificate on the subject I would prefer to add information that may provide further fuel for our interest. Feel free to correct me (gently) or add information.

Pulling from biology & botany we can perhaps get a glimpse of this process and thus increase our opportunity to help it out&#8230; for as the axiom states, "Nature unaided always fails."

*fermentation *|ˌfərmənˈtā sh ən|
noun
the chemical breakdown of a substance by bacteria, yeasts, or other microorganisms and the giving off of heat.

Think composting and then consider the two types of composting, aerobic and anaerobic, utilizing two major classes of organisms, bacteria & fungi. The idea is to create an environment where the desired microorganisms can thrive and multiply.

*Aerobic*, from the Greek work for air, in order for these microorganisms to thrive and do their "job" of decomposing and break down organic matter they need air to live and do their work.

The aerobic bacteria convert carbon to CO2 and nitrogen to nitrates and ammonia. This process produces much less odor then the anaerobic.

*Anaerobic*, this class of organism works without oxygen, like the sorted tobacco leaves that are stacked in bundles of twenty leaves, called "hands". The hands are stacked in groups three to six feet high for fermentation/composting. Moisture, tars, nicotine and ammonia is released during the process.

Anaerobic work slower and the nitrogen will tend to convert to ammonia more readily making a bit of a smell. In the aerobic pile the bacteria use the nitrogen all the time thus producing less of a smell.

Consider that some tobacco is fermented/composted 2-3 times and that maduro even more so.

With the OP question reconsidered we have to ask ourselves, are the cigars we are storing/caring for alive with microorganisms and to what degree.

Following the biology of this discussion we can see how humidity and temperature combined with whatever bacteria or fungi present in or on a cigar can either continue down the road of fermenting/aging or perhaps produce mold (fungi). It is my understanding that fermentation is a living process of microorganisms (bacteria & fungi) acting upon a host (tobacco) held in balance by utilizing H2O, O2 and producing a number of byproducts one of which is ammonia. When that balance is disturbed we can get "mold" and "rot".

I have tried to be accurate in my interpretation but most of my knowledge is experiential and at best incomplete.

Now back to what I was doing, thanks Scott.


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## uvacom (Oct 29, 2008)

Excellent, scott! Since I'm getting the HCM beads I am calling off the zeolite experiment for the moment, but next time I get a box of some stinky cigars I think I'll separate it into two tupperware containers, one with a zeolite-lined lid. Then I'll leave them be and give them a sniff every 3 days, or thereabouts. It still might be a worthwhile experiment, if it helps cigars get over their sick period quicker so that they can be introduced to the humidor with the well-adjusted sticks in a shorter time. And smoked, of course. :ss

I think we are reaching a consensus that if ammonia scavenging is useful, it is primarily to new cigars. For me, the whole notion came about because of a buying spree of less expensive and (apparently) younger cigars from CI that have left my humidor with a rather pungent scent.

The fact that ammonia stink is usually observed in fresh cigars does suggest that it might very well come from the rolling process as raralith has suggested - of particular note is that (by my observation) it happens even in cigars with tobaccos which have been aged significantly.

My understanding of the ammonia production is basically this - microorganisms decompose plant matter (in this case, tobacco) and produce ammonia as a waste product. Other microorganisms convert that into nitrite, and then nitrate.

That process probably occurs in our cigars, and it would explain why a well-sealed 20 year old box of cigars doesn't smell like a litterbox.

*The question is:* how might these nitrates affect the quality of an aged cigar long-term?

What would be really enlightening (and which is probably entirely cost-prohibitive) would be to compare several fresh cigars to their aged counterparts using mass spectrometry or something thereabouts. Cigar forensic files, if you will. That way we could see what qualities an aged cigar possesses that a fresh cigar does not, and perhaps ultimately develop parameters that define the most consistent, desirable, and maybe even fastest aging.


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

I'm still not sure if the microbial action is done when gross cigars arrive to my humi.
Sooner or later they have to finish up cause there's nothing left to eat.
I'm not sure when that happens though.
Composting requires some stirring to keep it going and to keep from getting too hot and cooking itself alive. Ciagsr in my humi don't catch fire, so my guess is that the ammonia coming off is just residual and not a product of current microbial activity.

I think part of the magic or allure of aging cigars is that none turn out the same.
Similarly kept cigars are similar, but your cigars from 2000 are going to be different from my cigars from 2000 regardless if we keep them the same or not.
There's going to be nuance, and that's cool.

It'd be nice to know more about how aging works, just to know. That way a guy could become a "master ager" and produce old cigars of different nuance and share them as such. My life span is just too short to worry about it. 
Uvacom, I think your test group is a fun idea. 
I wouldn't open them for at least a month, though. Then you'll have a definative answer for sure. If you open them every three days the air transfer may be enough to make the cigars turn out the same.
Maybe a hypodermic through the lid where you can take air samples with a minimum (and most importantly, equal) amount of air exchange.
That'd give enough air to sniff, but I still wouldn't pull samples more than once a month.
I say that based on the fact that it takes me 8 months to air out and dry wet cigars in isolation, from my experience. :tu


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## uvacom (Oct 29, 2008)

Okay, month long intervals then. I think it would be good to back up the qualitative data with something more concrete, so I think I'll get a roll of these test strips.

As far as testing aged cigars goes, that's probably a pipe dream, since it would require large sets of data to be of any use, due to the variability you describe. Of course there would never be one guaranteed method to churn out the exact same cigars every time. But it just seems so useful to achieve an understanding of the aging system at the chemical level. And what if we found that, for example, higher (or lower) atmospheric CO2 levels in the aging environment yielded better cigars? That would be incredibly useful.


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## Cigary (Oct 19, 2007)

Seriously, this will help to get rid of cat box smell? I have 2 cats ( Clifford & Spaz ) who can tear up a cat box pretty quick. This would be nice to keep the cat box aroma contained before they are banned to the basement quarters.



mrreindeer said:


> Very good point.
> 
> It'd be great to get some of this for my humi & the cat box; kill two birds with one stone!


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

No, it's not likely.
I use the cheap walmart clumping litter and that works great.
With one cat I only have to change all the litter about once every 4 months or so. It just gets so pee saturated it has to go.
Ain't nothin on this planet that takes care of cat litter except cleaning the box every other day. With the clumping stuff and one cat I only need to clean the box on garbage night. I have one of those 4 piece litter boxes with a roof and litter strainer things. Also from Walmart.
That's as good as it gets aside from throwing them out of the house for good, which is where all my cats lived when I was still at the farm.


Cigary said:


> Seriously, this will help to get rid of cat box smell? I have 2 cats ( Clifford & Spaz ) who can tear up a cat box pretty quick. This would be nice to keep the cat box aroma contained before they are banned to the basement quarters.


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## MrMusicMan1 (Sep 5, 2008)

Just digging up an outstanding thread. Any new info since December?


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## uvacom (Oct 29, 2008)

Haha, I have to admit that I never tested this because I found an easier solution - buy better cigars! Although I also purchased shilala's beads and that may have helped too. His beads are great.


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## shotokun16 (Jul 5, 2010)

I know this is back in 2009 but i find this thread extremely interesting. Funny how wines have aerator (i.e. Vinturis) devices why cant cigars have something similar!?!?!??! why resort to years of aging if you can build a device that can reduce your aging in months or weeks...


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## superman0234 (Sep 27, 2011)

Would also be very interested to hear if anything came of this! Good thread to revive


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