# Ageing Questions



## coppertop (Dec 29, 2003)

I have decided to set all my boxes that I have for ageing aside in a cooler. So....I know there are different views on the "proper" ways to age cigars. Some say let them rest, with normal air circulation, and some say to age them with no air contact. I know they age slower then they would with air contact, but I believe MRN says this is the best way to age cigars. It's a slower process.......so, what do some of you all think? Should I go buy a Vacuum Packaging System to seal all my cigars away from air....or continue ageing them like I have been? I know that the replies will be personal preference.....but I am hoping that I get some personal experiences from some of you LLGs.


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## Blueface (May 28, 2005)

No plastic works for me.


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## coppertop (Dec 29, 2003)

Blueface said:


> No plastic works for me.


HUH???????? What do you mean by plastic???


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## Blueface (May 28, 2005)

He is talking about vacuum packaging and I guess it would be similar plastic bags to those seen on infomercials.


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## coppertop (Dec 29, 2003)

Blueface said:


> He is talking about vacuum packaging and I guess it would be similar plastic bags to those seen on infomercials.


By *he* I take it you mean me. And yes I am.


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## Lamar (Dec 12, 1997)

sealed in original boxes, preferably cabs or AT's. Keep an eye on your temp also, if you can keep it at 65 or so.


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## floydp (Jun 6, 2004)

Lamar said:


> sealed in original boxes, preferably cabs or AT's. Keep an eye on your temp also, if you can keep it at 65 or so.


So looking into an "Edisonador" is making more sense all the time. And humidiy at 70 for ageing??


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## mr.c (Apr 8, 2004)

floydp said:


> So looking into an "Edisonador" is making more sense all the time. And humidiy at 70 for ageing??


65 % is fine.


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## floydp (Jun 6, 2004)

mr.c said:


> 65 % is fine.


Kewl, thanks Joe..


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## coppertop (Dec 29, 2003)

Lamar said:


> sealed in original boxes, preferably cabs or AT's. Keep an eye on your temp also, if you can keep it at 65 or so.


It isn't a wine cooler....just a plane old cooler you might take to the beach or camping. The temp is 70 degress, but my humidity is 64-66%. I am trying to get it lower then that. I can't do anything for the temp...my AC kicks on enough as it is. They are all in original boxes......and I will be picking up a Vacuum Sealer to seal them up so they are untouched by the air. (Thanks for that PM Joe). Looks like I'll be ageing these babies for awhile.

Thanks


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## par (May 22, 2005)

Question... If you seal the boxes why are you worrying about relative humidity? The seal shouldn't allow for any water evaporation nor absorbtion???

intriguing mind wants to know...


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## northt (Apr 19, 2005)

Most films will allow passage of some water vapor. I have repeatedly read to keep the humidity at about 65%.


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## par (May 22, 2005)

I got to admit that i'm no expert. But i went and tried to research this subject and i've been unable to find any food grade film that allows water to vapor through it (i'm sure there is plenty out there, i just can't find anything consumer oriented). I assumed that it was plain polythene film that you guys are looking at.

Could it be condensation that you've been experiencing instead of vaporization?

Oh, and i'm no chemist by any means but i'm somewhat decent in math. I found a site that tried to explain the chemistry and the math behind vapor, RH and temperature. It is really, really complicated..


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## coppertop (Dec 29, 2003)

I think I'm going to try using Ziplock bags instead.....I know they allow a little air in....but I think they should suffice


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## Blueface (May 28, 2005)

Since I don't have a large enough humi, I use large zip lock bags as a makeshift humi to hold two boxes and I place a Cigar Savor Humistat in it. Humidity stays at a perfect 70 and I have aged quite a few that way and they seem to do well. In my earlier reply I meant that I personally would not shrink/vacum pack them. I have been told by old timer residents/cigar aficionados/torcedors of ISOM that even though they are rolled, they are still believed a living thing and will do better if allowed to breath somewhat.


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## SeanGAR (Jul 9, 2004)

par said:


> I got to admit that i'm no expert. But i went and tried to research this subject and i've been unable to find any food grade film that allows water to vapor through it (i'm sure there is plenty out there, i just can't find anything consumer oriented). I assumed that it was plain polythene film that you guys are looking at.
> 
> Could it be condensation that you've been experiencing instead of vaporization?
> 
> Oh, and i'm no chemist by any means but i'm somewhat decent in math. I found a site that tried to explain the chemistry and the math behind vapor, RH and temperature. It is really, really complicated..


Water vapor transmission across various food grade films can be measured but the rates are low to very low, depending on the film. Are you might expect, the rate depends on tempreature and film thickness but other factors can come into play such as chemicals that act as plasticizers and increase transmission rates in films (limonene comes to mind here). In any case, I wouldn't vacuum store smokes in plastic just because that isn't the typical way that they are aged. I would just pack them in a cooler with some beads, make sure everything is equilibrated, and do my best to leave them alone.


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## coppertop (Dec 29, 2003)

SeanGAR said:


> Water vapor transmission across various food grade films can be measured but the rates are low to very low, depending on the film. Are you might expect, the rate depends on tempreature and film thickness but other factors can come into play such as chemicals that act as plasticizers and increase transmission rates in films (limonene comes to mind here). In any case, I wouldn't vacuum store smokes in plastic just because that isn't the typical way that they are aged. I would just pack them in a cooler with some beads, make sure everything is equilibrated, and do my best to leave them alone.


Thanks Sean...I decided not to vacuum store them....but I am going to experiment with using ziplock bags. Thanks for the info Sean


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## drill (Jan 1, 2000)

just caught this thread and it looks like you pretty much decided how you would go about it

let me just add that the technique you use kinda depends on the term/length of ageing you plan on laying them down for.

k


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## MoTheMan (May 24, 2003)

coppertop said:


> I have decided to set all my boxes that I have for ageing aside in a cooler. So....I know there are different views on the "proper" ways to age cigars. Some say let them rest, with normal air circulation, and some say to age them with no air contact. I know they age slower then they would with air contact, but I believe MRN says this is the best way to age cigars. It's a slower process.......so, what do some of you all think? Should I go buy a Vacuum Packaging System to seal all my cigars away from air....or continue ageing them like I have been? I know that the replies will be personal preference.....but I am hoping that I get some personal experiences from some of you LLGs.


I like using circulated air (Cigar Oasis), I think it works best.

Personally, I think the only cigars that age best with minimal or near absolute lack of air circulation are tubos. Most of the rest of my cigars I keep in boxes. While there's plenty of circulation around, I try to avoid any direct airflow on the cigars -- try to keep more of a pasive flow.

:2


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## The Prince (Apr 9, 2005)

MoTheMan said:


> I like using circulated air (Cigar Oasis), I think it works best.
> 
> Personally, I think the only cigars that age best with minimal or near absolute lack of air circulation are tubos. Most of the rest of my cigars I keep in boxes. While there's plenty of circulation around, I try to avoid any direct airflow on the cigars -- try to keep more of a pasive flow.
> 
> :2


That's the way I see it. Cigar Oasis Plus, works wonders for me.


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## coppertop (Dec 29, 2003)

hmmm...well I've been reading a lot about this. I guess I might need to pick up a Cigar Oasis Plus for circulation purposes.....but I still intend to bag them up. I plan on sitting them down for a minimum of 5, but no longer then 10. Some I am ageing right now have less time needed on them, but I here that this is one of the best methods to ageing cigars. I believe MRN says to do this, but I don't have a reference point on that (since I don't own his book, YET). But I have seen it, and recall reading something along these lines. I guess we'll wait and see.

Kerry I recall a little bit of the conversation we had at the KC Herf regarding this process. That really got me thinking about trying it. 

Thanks for all your help. I appreciate your thoughts.


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## One Lonely Smoker (Jan 21, 2005)

coppertop said:


> I can't do anything for the temp...my AC kicks on enough as it is.


Hehe, no one said aging cigars properly was going to be cheap, lol. Seriously, for the best effect, you need to have as few fluctuations of any kind as possible. The best thing for you to do is cooler'em and store the coolers in your basement. I don't guess the cigars' temperature fluctuates too much inside the ice chest provided your AC keeps somewhat consistent temperatures in your house. But IME, that fluctuation between night and day seems to mess with the humdity level in the box itself. If they are in your basement, even if it is not super cool, you can bet it's at least consistent. Hell, how hot is it in CUBA? 
Good luck. As you know, I am doing the same thing.


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## par (May 22, 2005)

Good thread. Thanks for the information folks.

It appears to me that ageing of cigars have a lot in common with ageing wine.


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## Lamar (Dec 12, 1997)

Perhaps this is a thread that we should revisit from time to time to find out how the various approaches to aging works out. Personally, I have no knowledge of how cigars age within a sealed environment although I do remember reading Mo's Cigar Advisor comment under his discussion on the 70/70 myth that he does store his very old cigars this way. 

I am interested in finding out how this method works with new cigars and on a relatively short duration (three to five years). My GUESS is that this method will benefit cigars that tend to come around quickly by slowing down the aging process and thereby adding nuances that may otherwise not show up. Do keep me posted on this one.


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## coppertop (Dec 29, 2003)

One Lonely Smoker said:


> Hehe, no one said aging cigars properly was going to be cheap, lol. Seriously, for the best effect, you need to have as few fluctuations of any kind as possible. The best thing for you to do is cooler'em and store the coolers in your basement. I don't guess the cigars' temperature fluctuates too much inside the ice chest provided your AC keeps somewhat consistent temperatures in your house. But IME, that fluctuation between night and day seems to mess with the humdity level in the box itself. If they are in your basement, even if it is not super cool, you can bet it's at least consistent. Hell, how hot is it in CUBA?
> Good luck. As you know, I am doing the same thing.


I had originally intended to store these in my basement....however it is a half basement and stays pretty warm during the summer months, and cold during the winter. The most consistent temp would be my living room. The temp inside remains at a steady 70 degress. I just picked up a 120qt cooler today. I have bagged all the cigars up in either 1 gallon or 2.5 gallon ziplock bags. Now I am trying to raise the humidity level up. It is low, mid 50s right now. I want to raise it to about 62-64%rh. And try to hold it there.

Lamar, I was thinking the same thing. But I don't want to smoke just a single cigar from a box. So I plan on filling one of my empty boxes with a few cigars (PSD4, PSP2, JL#2, RyJ Cazadore and maybe a few others) to see how they age differently this way then in my Edison-a-dor. This is going to be fun.


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## dvickery (Jan 1, 2000)

whatever you do it shall be interesting to see what the future brings.

how i store my smokes.more or less but different rituals change from time to time.

everything closed tightly nails in the boxes and lids on cabs closed.i typically open a particular box 2 or 3 or 4 times in the first couple or three years after that less frequently.

may seem a bit tacky but (after many years)i still use coolers that hold about 500 cigars(45 litres works just fine).i open any particular cooler 3 or 4 or 5 times a year i guess.except my open boxes cooler...more like 3 times a month.

no active humidification or other fans on timers etc...all i use is silica media(65%)and only have to add humidity once or twice a year...to me this is pretty much maintenance free(opening coolers less and disturbing smokes less).

temperature i have less control of than some but it seldom gets below 63 f or above 69 f...just where i happen to keep them.

would like to hear what vacuum sealed smokes are like in ten years...we shall see...hope this helps a bit.

derrek


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## coppertop (Dec 29, 2003)

dvickery said:


> whatever you do it shall be interesting to see what the future brings.
> 
> how i store my smokes.more or less but different rituals change from time to time.
> 
> ...


I decided not to vacuum seal them....just store them away in ziplock bags.


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

I have an Oasis Plus also ( the cartridges on the reg. Oasis suck!) and it works great. More airflow means faster aging. Cigars also age faster at higher temps. Of course keeping cigars at much higher than 72 deg F. can also result in beetles. I've been smoking close to 10 years and I have always kept my cigars at around 76 deg. I have had 2 outbreaks in those 10 years and both were no big deal. I tend to look at my cigars and open them a lot to encourage airflow and speed up aging. Both times it was caught before spreading to more than a few sticks. Not sure I see the benefit in aging with no airflow, unless you have cigars that have already peaked and you want them to stay the same. I don't have this problem since most of the boxes I buy are well under peaking age. I also don't do any real long term aging. A few years is the longest they last in my humi. I guess a cabinet style humi, a few thousand $$$ a year more, (on top of the few thousand I'm already spending), and more patience, I would be ready to store them long term.


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

One Lonely Smoker said:


> Hehe, no one said aging cigars properly was going to be cheap, lol. Seriously, for the best effect, you need to have as few fluctuations of any kind as possible. The best thing for you to do is cooler'em and store the coolers in your basement. I don't guess the cigars' temperature fluctuates too much inside the ice chest provided your AC keeps somewhat consistent temperatures in your house. But IME, that fluctuation between night and day seems to mess with the humdity level in the box itself. If they are in your basement, even if it is not super cool, you can bet it's at least consistent. Hell, how hot is it in CUBA?
> Good luck. As you know, I am doing the same thing.


Excellent point about no fluctuations, and I don't want to ruffle any feathers, but I don't see how a wine coolidor can work very well. I know Coppertop is talking about plain coolers. I experimented with a Hair wine coller and found the temp. to change drastically when the compressor cycled on and off. Sometimes as much as a 10 degree difference in a few minutes. I also had the RadioShack fan for circulation but to me the temp changing like that all the time can't be good for cigars. I don't think Temp. and Humidity are as important as everyone thinks as long as they are stable. I've experimented with R.H. at 62%-70 and found little difference. I know most experts agree on lower for long term storage. There have been threads about changing Relative humidity for changes in temp and this is not necessary. 65% r.h. at 70 deg. is the same as 65% r.h. at 76 deg., hence the term relative humidity. We are not measuring overall humidity. I know a lot of people have said otherwise (even c.a.) but they are wrong.


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## coppertop (Dec 29, 2003)

Fredster said:


> Excellent point about no fluctuations, and I don't want to ruffle any feathers, but I don't see how a wine coolidor can work very well. I know Coppertop is talking about plain coolers. I experimented with a Hair wine coller and found the temp. to change drastically when the compressor cycled on and off. Sometimes as much as a 10 degree difference in a few minutes. I also had the RadioShack fan for circulation but to me the temp changing like that all the time can't be good for cigars. I don't think Temp. and Humidity are as important as everyone thinks as long as they are stable. I've experimented with R.H. at 62%-70 and found little difference. I know most experts agree on lower for long term storage. There have been threads about changing Relative humidity for changes in temp and this is not necessary. 65% r.h. at 70 deg. is the same as 65% r.h. at 76 deg., hence the term relative humidity. We are not measuring overall humidity. I know a lot of people have said otherwise (even c.a.) but they are wrong.


Fred I will respectfully disagree. The most my temp drops when my wine cooler cycles on is 4 or 5 degrees. The humidity drops a little also but then comes right back and remains very stable until the compressor turns back on. I know we could talk all day about this....but I know my cigars have been doing just fine. I guess I could try and keep them in a regular humidor for a few months to see how they do......but I haven't really noticed any difference.

Also wouldn't the temp inside the humidor be affected every time my A/C came on....it would rise during the periods it was off, and drop when it came on. Same thing that is happening in my Haier. Except my cigars stay around 64 degrees and between 64-66%rh. Maybe I'll experiment some more when I will be home for more then a week. Also one of the reasons I went to the Haier setup........controlled environment for my cigars when I'm gone. Since there is no one to look after my cigars when I am away.

As for the slower ageing process.....some believe that this will bring out subtle nuances in the cigars. I don't think speeding up the ageing process could be good for a cigar....meaning I don't think you'll get the full benefit of ageing out of them. I know I'm no expert, no claiming to be. But I am going to experiment and see if there is a difference. I am trying to raise my humidity level inside my cooler....it is low for some reason.


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

I think 4 or 5 degrees is still a pretty big difference. It's also constantly going up and down quickly. The A/C analogy doesn't work because we are talking about cooling a much bigger space and keeping it closer to the set point. I was in the A/C business before getting into the restaurant bus. A/C units cycle on and off to keep the air within a couple degrees. Most T-stats will kick on when the temp rises a degree above the setting and shut off when it reaches a degree under. Thats the temp at the T-stat which is close to the return. The temp there varies a bit more because the location by the return, but still only a 2-3 difference. The room where my humi is never varies more than one degree. I saw about a 5 degree drop in the top of the wine coooler, and close to 10 at the bottom when the compressor cycled off. Now if your cigars seem fine and you don't notice a problem, then thats fine. I'm just saying I don't feel comfortable keeping MY smokes in something that the temp is changing that much.
I prefer to speed up the aging process since most of the cigars I'm buying are to smoke soon. They are also usually 03's and 04's. The faster I can age them the better, since they are not going to sit around long. Now if you are planning to age them 5-10 years then it may be best to be in a cooler location. My smokes are always about 76 deg. and nobody has ever complained about anything I've sent. They usually sit a year or two tops.


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## coppertop (Dec 29, 2003)

Fredster said:


> I think 4 or 5 degrees is still a pretty big difference. It's also constantly going up and down quickly. The A/C analogy doesn't work because we are talking about cooling a much bigger space and keeping it closer to the set point. I was in the A/C business before getting into the restaurant bus. A/C units cycle on and off to keep the air within a couple degrees. Most T-stats will kick on when the temp rises a degree above the setting and shut off when it reaches a degree under. Thats the temp at the T-stat which is close to the return. The temp there varies a bit more because the location by the return, but still only a 2-3 difference. The room where my humi is never varies more than one degree. I saw about a 5 degree drop in the top of the wine coooler, and close to 10 at the bottom when the compressor cycled off. Now if your cigars seem fine and you don't notice a problem, then thats fine. I'm just saying I don't feel comfortable keeping MY smokes in something that the temp is changing that much.
> I prefer to speed up the aging process since most of the cigars I'm buying are to smoke soon. They are also usually 03's and 04's. The faster I can age them the better, since they are not going to sit around long. Now if you are planning to age them 5-10 years then it may be best to be in a cooler location. My smokes are always about 76 deg. and nobody has ever complained about anything I've sent. They usually sit a year or two tops.


Yeah I haven't had any issues.....but I do have a 500ct humi I've been thinking about putting to use again for cigars that I'm smoking. I need to get some more humidity beads if I'm going to go that route. I see your point on the A/C reference......but have yet to notice a difference in my smokes. Looks like I'll be ordering some more beads.........Now I have two experiments going on. Damn you Fred 

Looks like I'll be holding off on that order....since they are moving. Or maybe I can split some up that I have now......this should be fun.


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## IHT (Dec 27, 2003)

who's moving?

nevermind. i thought they had finished moving already...


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## coppertop (Dec 29, 2003)

IHT said:


> who's moving?
> 
> nevermind. i thought they had finished moving already...


Nope...site is still down.


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

coppertop said:


> Yeah I haven't had any issues.....but I do have a 500ct humi I've been thinking about putting to use again for cigars that I'm smoking. I need to get some more humidity beads if I'm going to go that route. I see your point on the A/C reference......but have yet to notice a difference in my smokes. Looks like I'll be ordering some more beads.........Now I have two experiments going on. Damn you Fred


Sorry Mike. Definately not telling anyone what to do. The other thing that really bothered me about the Hair is I noticed the R.H. going all over the place when the compressor cycled on and off. I had a digital at the top and bottom and I was using my Oasis Plus, and a R.Shack computer fan for circulation. I saw fluctuations around 15%. If you think about it, a small refrigeration unit works the same as an A/C unit. In addition to removing heat they also remove moisture from the air when it goes through the evaporator coil. Thats why refridgerators have a small pan at the bottom for the water that it's pulling out of the box to evaporate in. Constantly pulling moisture out of the air and replacing it with the beads seems like too much fluctuation to me. I know the A/C does the same thing but you don't see the r.h. change much when an A/C unit cycles on and off. My r.h. in my house is about 50%, and does not change much. Now some will say it's alright for the r.h. to change when the temp. does, but I think they are wrong. You may have to add or remove moisture to maintain 65% r.h. at different temps, but if you are shooting for 65% r.h. it should be 65% reguardless of temp. as I said in the earlier post. Relative humidity is just that, relative. There is a good article in Cigar Nexus I think that also agrees with this.


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## coppertop (Dec 29, 2003)

Yeah....I see what you are getting at. I will get the 500ct up and running and see how my cigars smoke...if they smoke any differently


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## LasciviousXXX (Oct 12, 2004)

Great thread guys.... thanx I'm learning a lot.

I appreciate all the advice, I've only noticed a few degrees variation with my setup but I definitely had some problems when I was first getting it set up.

This thread will definitely be of help to me when I reach the long term ageing stage


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

LasciviousXXX said:


> Great thread guys.... thanx I'm learning a lot.
> 
> I appreciate all the advice, I've only noticed a few degrees variation with my setup but I definitely had some problems when I was first getting it set up.
> 
> This thread will definitely be of help to me when I reach the long term ageing stage


Yeah, maybe if I waited longer for the unit to equalize it would have been better. I waited about 3 days and it was still showing some pretty wild temp. and r.h. swings. Maybe if it's kept in a cool place like a basement ( don't have those where I live) it would not cycle as much and would not fluctaute as much? I know wine coolers are a bit better than a standard fridge because they are supposed to not remove as much humidity. I think they are supposed to keep the humidity around 50% so the corks don't dry out. They just don't have real sensitive thermostats. Seems like a big swing between when the comp. kicks on and off. Especially at the bottom due to colder air being more dense. I know there are a few humidors with temp control and they probably have a much more accurate t-stat, but they cost a fortune!


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## opus (Jun 21, 2005)

Too bad there isn't a co-op aging facility somewhere where the temp and humidity are close to ideal naturally. Pay a onetime fee and send your best off for a set amount of time. Then have them shipped back when that time is up. It would also remove temptation from the equation. Maybe then I could have cigars more than 2 years old. :r


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## Nooner (Feb 22, 2005)

opusxox said:


> Too bad there isn't a co-op aging facility somewhere where the temp and humidity are close to ideal naturally. Pay a onetime fee and send your best off for a set amount of time. Then have them shipped back when that time is up. It would also remove temptation from the equation. Maybe then I could have cigars more than 2 years old. :r


Maybe I can pitch this idea to my wife to allow me to make a closet-a-dor...

"But honey I need the space to age cigars for my online buddies..."

"no honey, those cigars that just came via Fed-Ex from Switzerland aren't mine, I am aging them for a buddy from ClubStogie..."

That may just work! :al


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## opus (Jun 21, 2005)

Nooner said:


> Maybe I can pitch this idea to my wife to allow me to make a closet-a-dor...
> 
> "But honey I need the space to age cigars for my online buddies..."
> 
> ...


I think your on to something. Glad you took my idea to the next level.I will still have to explain credit card statements with charges from Switzerland though. Any thoughts on that one?


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## Uniputt (Nov 23, 2004)

opusxox said:


> I think your on to something. Glad you took my idea to the next level.I will still have to explain credit card statements with charges from Switzerland though. Any thoughts on that one?


Just tell her:

"Honey, those high-dollar charges from Switzerland are for expensive chocolates I bought you because you are such a loving, caring, and wonderful wife.........Here, have some, won't you my love?....What's that honey?......Gee, that's funny..... No, dear, that seems very odd....Honestly, I don't know WHY they would stamp them 'Hershey'........" 

But seriously, I've just talked to my wife, and the closet-a-dor will be complete by next week. She has agreed to let every member of CS send me their cigars for long term aging. And I can assure everyone that I will smoke one occasionally and report on the progress regularly....I mean, we have to have quality control, right? :w

Simply PM me for my shipping address. And for the best aging results, I recommend you send only full boxes. (However, I will delightfully accept any singles you happen to ship as well....).


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## The Rev (Feb 26, 2005)

My wine coolador does do the dippsy do when the compressor kicks in. It can drop 20-30% Rh for a matter of minutes, not hours. Now, the two digitial hygrometers I have are in the air flow areas and are very sensitive devices. What I am thinking is that even if the Rh% drops for a period of minutes is that going to reach the cigars in my trays that are almost sealed in a sense, they allow for just a little air flow, or my cigars in their boxes? I am leaning towards the idea that it may not make that big of a difference, especially if I have my humi at 80-90% full. I mean, the dips in RH% in my humi would not be much different than opening the door to your humi in a dry climate. Now, if that is going to make a difference in the long run then I guess I may have to seal them off in some way. But, I still don't want to go the plastic bag route, because I don't see a lot of the pictures here at CS of the big humis with the boxes on boxes of ISOMS bagged in plastic. I understand that MRN recommends this for the long haul, but where do we draw the line between proper ageing, ageing too fast and retarding ageing? I see the point that plastic bags may retard the ageing process in such a way as to bring out different nuances in flavor, but couldn't it also be argued that you're just getting a five year flavor at ten years by slowing down the process, maybe not? Also, my wineador fluctuates less than 1 deg. from my preferred setting. I guess the price I pay for that precision is a drop in Rh% now and then. But, if you're using air con. in a house, isn't there some fluctuation when the door is open in the summer or winter? I guess the basement angle would eliminate that and putting the cigars in coolers eliminates the swings in the basement and putting the cigars in plastic bags super insulates them against exchange of oxygen (good thing?) and I add it all up and it just doesn't sound natural. I am still thinking on bagging some boxes up, but I am leaning toward the idea that it is more of a protective measure than a flavor enhancing one. I have read from many experts, maybe not as big time as MRN but experts none the less, that they remove the cello from their cigars to do exactly the opposite thing from what we are talking about in bagging the cigars. Just when I think I am starting to get a grip here at CS, I am always back to square one.


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## The Rev (Feb 26, 2005)

Another quick note, when I have read about the guys at Cigar Aficionado smoking 10-15-20 plus year aged smokes, are they smoking cigars stored in plastic bags? If they are, I think it is negligent for them not to mention it. I saw a 99 rating on a HDM DC that was in an unopened crate of smokes from pre-Castro. If they had to cut open plastic or open the mid-fifties Cuban zip-locks, I think they shoud have said so. I need to investigate this further. I wish I could understand what is going on.

Another concern I have is whether lower temperature or deprivation of air exchange slows the aging process more drastically. I have a fridgador I am going to have to re-think also. If the fluctuations in rh in my winador are damaging, I may have t put the cigars in sealed humidors inside my winador and cut my capacity from 700 to about 300----OUCH!


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## par (May 22, 2005)

I'd be a bit concerned with compressor kicking on and off. Ok, i don't have the math right in front of me, but it goes something like this:
when temperature drops (or increases) rapidly you change the transporting properties of moisture (not humidity properties but evaporation rate). If you keep the sticks in plastic i'd venture on a guess that depending on the size of the temperature swings and the time in between each cycle (equilibirium) you'd get evaporation cycles inside the containers.

I know for sure that the wine cooling units are made to reduce the temperature swings by having more even temperate cycles as you get changes in the smell and taste in wine from temperature fluctuations.

If you keep the sticks in a sealed bag, and there is rapid temperature changes it seems to me that you for sure would get evaporation -or your sticks would be "sweating". This must not be desireable?


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## The Rev (Feb 26, 2005)

Thanks Par. I hear what your're saying. I never have temperature swings, but I have humidity swings for short periods. I guess that if I have my cigars in bags or at least semi-sealed containers then the humidity around the cigars might not change enough to affect them. I can see Coppertop's point and I just may have to adjust my thinking a little. I value the advice here very much.


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## coppertop (Dec 29, 2003)

The cigars that I am ageing are not in a wine cooler. They are in a 120qt ice chest....something that you would take with you to the lake. The cigars I'm smoking are in my wine cooler, and as soon the site (for humidity beads) is back up I'm going to experiment using my 500ct humi. To see if the cigars smoke any differently between the wine cooler and the Humi. Any excess cigars will be stored in the ice chest...and moved into either the wine cooler or the humi. We'll see how this works.


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

The Rev said:


> Another quick note, when I have read about the guys at Cigar Aficionado smoking 10-15-20 plus year aged smokes, are they smoking cigars stored in plastic bags? If they are, I think it is negligent for them not to mention it. I saw a 99 rating on a HDM DC that was in an unopened crate of smokes from pre-Castro. If they had to cut open plastic or open the mid-fifties Cuban zip-locks, I think they shoud have said so. I need to investigate this further. I wish I could understand what is going on.
> 
> Another concern I have is whether lower temperature or deprivation of air exchange slows the aging process more drastically. I have a fridgador I am going to have to re-think also. If the fluctuations in rh in my winador are damaging, I may have t put the cigars in sealed humidors inside my winador and cut my capacity from 700 to about 300----OUCH!


Most of the cigars from the 70's or 80's I have smoked come from xxxxx in xxxxxxx. He usually buys them from Christies or sometimes private parties. I would bet none of them were aged in plastic bags. I think people take the aging issue to serious. Everyone has their preferences, but all of the experts agree on a lower humidity and a lower temp. As far as bags and everything else, I don't think it's necessary. They say cabs age the best because of the air flow being better, so why deprive them of airflow? Some of the best aged smokes I've had from the 70's and 80's were Tubos, with little airflow and they were fantastic. I don't think it makes a huge diference either way. The only thing thats really important is steady temps and humidity.


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## MoTheMan (May 24, 2003)

You guys have a great discussion going here. I believe that a lot of factors can affect how a cigar ages; so I'd like to add a few ideas. :2 

When it comes to aging cigars, IMO, the best kind of aging takes polace at a lower temperature and humidity,say, 65/65 or even lower, over a LOOONNG period of time, say 5-10 years or more. That kind of setting gives slow steady aging, allowing volatile oils and alkalines to breakdown, combine, change, evolve, and eventually give off enough of ammonia to really round out the flavors & complexity of a cigar. Unfortunately, to do this properly, you need a lot of patience or a dealer with a huge stock of aged stuff.

For younger cigars, ones that are past their sick period and are ready to smoke but could benefit from additional humidor aging I use a different strategy; something akin to what Fredster was talking about. They are ready to smoke now, what I try to do is the next best thing in order to obtain that rounded out, smooth quality that an aged stick has. I go for a slightly higher temp./humidity, around 72/72. The important key is circulation. I find that active humidification (one using a device with some kind of fan) is paramount. Good air circulation helps blow off ammonia and volatile alkaloids taking away some of the inherent bitterness with them. This leaves the cigar tasting very nice and allows it's complexity to show through. 

I really can't compare two cigars aged by these two methods, I don't think they'd taste the same, although they might come close. In fact I don't even know if anything like this has even been tried. Here's something interesting I found out last year when I was at the LCSH in Tijuana when the renowned Taboada was there. I met a most interesting Sister Of The Leaf, Zelda (yes, that was her real name). When I walked in to the store, I saw her watching Taboada very intently; not just the way a tourist might, but with a keenness and a study that only a dedicated cigar lover can show.

Seems that she's part of a group/social circle that's into gourmet foods & wine, and she's usually the one in charge of bringing cigars -- seems she's also a good acquaintance of the proprietors of the LCDH, Moises & Dave. Anyhow, got to talk with a great deal about a lot of things. She knowledge of cigars was quite vast. She believes that cigars are a lot more resilient than we think. That unless one is totally callous and overdries or wets their sticks, cigars can withstand quite a range of humidities and temperatures fluctuations. This goes along with some people I know who (that live in temperate climates with good ambient humidity) store their sticks without any humidification devices. Come to think of it, I've had sticks that were quite good but had benefitted from no additional humidification during storage, relying instead on the natural surrounding humidity. Of course sudden changes of temperature and/or humidity can cause wrappers to split, or even induce mold formation of beetle hatchings (all of these I've seen) -- slower changes seem to work better.

I guess that aging preferences may have more to do with how someone likes their smokes vs. it being "an exact science". :w


There, MoTheMan has spoken!! :r


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## mr.c (Apr 8, 2004)

you need to be a member but this link is a great read. Some of the biggest fogs around contributed thier thoughts and experience's.

CW


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## Xmodius (Jun 21, 2005)

This is a very interesting discussion.

I am hoping for some input from the original posters regarding experiences in the past 2 years....hardly a long enough time for real aging, but good enough for an update.

I have also been curious about various methods of aging regarding air flow, 'sealed' vs 'open' and other factors.

A good comparison to vacuum packing boxes for aging can probably be made with some current Habanos packaging.

*For example, RyJ Cazadores, packaged in a wooden box, but sealed inside in a foil pack. How would 2 boxes of Cazadores age compared to each other, if one remains sealed in the foil, while the other has the cigars removed from the foil and placed into the wooden box?
*(This could be the basis of a great experiment, though I'm sure it's been done.) In foil=stronger longer, younger longer...out of foil, faster aging I'm guessing.

Or, aging cigars in a varnished box vs removing them to a nonvarnished box.

Coolerdor/Igloodor vs a more permeable humidor. Coolerdors are wonderful at maintaining stable conditions but allow for very little air exchange compared to more permeable structures such as wooden humidors.

Just looking for updates/experiences since the original post.

Thanks.

John


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## Xmodius (Jun 21, 2005)

MoTheMan said:


> You guys have a great discussion going here. I believe that a lot of factors can affect how a cigar ages; so I'd like to add a few ideas. :2
> 
> I really can't compare two cigars aged by these two methods, I don't think they'd taste the same, although they might come close. In fact I don't even know if anything like this has even been tried. Here's something interesting I found out last year when I was at the LCSH in Tijuana when the renowned Taboada was there. I met a most interesting Sister Of The Leaf, Zelda (yes, that was her real name). When I walked in to the store, I saw her watching Taboada very intently; not just the way a tourist might, but with a keenness and a study that only a dedicated cigar lover can show.
> 
> ...


The bold part is very interesting. I was thinking about this when I was falling asleep. It is interesting because I know that many fine cigars have been aged without a lot of 'bells and whistles' or even close attention to the actual humidity/temp...as long as the conditions were 'reasonable' and most importantly...STABLE.

New opinions on this?


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## seagarsmoker (Jan 1, 2000)

Long term ageing thoughts:
Coolador work fine, use beads or foam for humidity which you should keep around 60%. I hate plastic! So I would leave in original boxes and/or cabs (which I like the best). About 6 months to one year before I am ready to smoke the box, I move it to one of my cabinets where I keep the humidity at 65%.


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## Boston_Dude05 (Oct 10, 2006)

seagarsmoker said:


> Long term ageing thoughts:
> Coolador work fine, use beads or foam for humidity which you should keep around 60%. I hate plastic! So I would leave in original boxes and/or cabs (which I like the best). About 6 months to one year before I am ready to smoke the box, I move it to one of my cabinets where I keep the humidity at 65%.


So when using a coolerdor for long-term aging, the plastic smell from the cooler is not an issue, say over even 5 years or so? Just wanted to clarify. Seems risky to leave some good smokes in there if there is a chance of plastic smells coming out. Does leaving them in the dress boxes or SLBS prevent this?


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## seagarsmoker (Jan 1, 2000)

Boston_Dude05 said:


> So when using a coolerdor for long-term aging, the plastic smell from the cooler is not an issue, say over even 5 years or so? Just wanted to clarify. Seems risky to leave some good smokes in there if there is a chance of plastic smells coming out. Does leaving them in the dress boxes or SLBS prevent this?


Not sure what you mean by plastic smell. That smell for the cooler usually goes away if you clean it down and leave it open for a few days. 
I used spanish cedar to line my old coolerdors with.


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## Boston_Dude05 (Oct 10, 2006)

seagarsmoker said:


> Not sure what you mean by plastic smell. That smell for the cooler usually goes away if you clean it down and leave it open for a few days.
> I used spanish cedar to line my old coolerdors with.


Just curious as to whether the plastic smell ever comes out again if after a good cleaning.


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## Blaylock-cl (Apr 28, 2006)

Boston_Dude05 said:


> Just curious as to whether the plastic smell ever comes out again if after a good cleaning.


After cleaning a new cooler, I put a box of baking soda in for a few days...haven't had any problems with the smell of plastic since.


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## Xmodius (Jun 21, 2005)

Boston_Dude05 said:


> So when using a coolerdor for long-term aging, the plastic smell from the cooler is not an issue, say over even 5 years or so? Just wanted to clarify. Seems risky to leave some good smokes in there if there is a chance of plastic smells coming out. Does leaving them in the dress boxes or SLBS prevent this?


When I open my coolerdor all I smell is CIGARS! What a wonderful aroma...


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