# Some new Castro news....



## M1903A1 (Jun 7, 2006)

...and it doesn't look too good for him:

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1543828,00.html


----------



## kurtdesign1 (Jan 29, 2006)

Interesting, though I don't know how reliable it is. There's a great quote in the article. "How right has the US been about Cuba over the last 47 years"? Touche, I say.


----------



## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

If one thing is true, "We are all going to die", and for sure Castro is up there in the years. I don't think anything will change in Cuba with Raul taking the helm. 

To some, Castro is a despised figure, to others a symbol of social equality. Either way, I think he's been the most savvy leader of the 20th century. To hold power so long against the backdrop of the world’s strongest super power is testament to his political skill.


----------



## M1903A1 (Jun 7, 2006)

mosesbotbol said:


> If one thing is true, "We are all going to die", and for sure Castro is up there in the years. I don't think anything will change in Cuba with Raul taking the helm.
> 
> To some, Castro is a despised figure, to others a symbol of social equality. Either way, I think he's been the most savvy leader of the 20th century. To hold power so long against the backdrop of the world's strongest super power is testament to his political skill.


I think it also helped him that the President he first stood up against (and who made the promise not to invade Cuba after the Missile Crisis) was a fairly inept one in matters of foreign policy.


----------



## Hydrated (Aug 9, 2006)

mosesbotbol said:


> To hold power so long against the backdrop of the world's strongest super power is testament to his political skill.


I hate to be adversarial here, but I have to chime in...

You are wrong. It is not a testament to his political skill... it is a testament to the fact that Fidel Castro is a truly bloodthirsty bastard. He has imprisoned, killed, or exiled thousands of people who did nothing more than disagree with him. Cubans do not have the luxury of speaking openly about Castro or his cronies... they fear what he can and will do to them and their families.

THAT is why Castro is still in power, and we'd all do well to remember it.


----------



## ATLHARP (May 3, 2005)

mosesbotbol said:


> If one thing is true, "We are all going to die", and for sure Castro is up there in the years. I don't think anything will change in Cuba with Raul taking the helm.
> 
> To some, Castro is a despised figure, to others a symbol of social equality. Either way, I think he's been the most savvy leader of the 20th century. To hold power so long against the backdrop of the world's strongest super power is testament to his political skill.


Well truly I think the reports are accurate, but they have been wrong before. Either way the man is on borrowed time just like all despots are. He has been without a doubt a savvy leader much the same as Stalin, Hitler and any other genocidal mass murderer has been. The things I think he will be most remembered for is:

1. Murdering millions of Cubans and effectively turning their country into a toilet.

2. Being a consistent thorn in the side of America

3. The idol for millions of leftists who feign concern for the "people" but in fact admire those who wield power with no mercy or any concern for those they are supposed to serve.

In the end, who Castro really is will come out and those who have the courage to face the truth about him will do so and those who do not will continue to provide excuses for his regime.

Personally I wish he would have shared the same fate Che :gn

ATL


----------



## M1903A1 (Jun 7, 2006)

Loopy as this may sound, a part of me still wonders if he may already BE dead, and the ruling powers in Cuba have been both consolidating power and also trying to decide how to break the news to the people.

I say this in part because I have seen, more than once, the claim that the average Cuban no longer believes in or supports socialism, let alone Communism, but that they DO believe in Fidel. Once ol' Fidelito is gone...where will the people's support go then? I also say this because I was recently reminded that the same thing happened when Stalin died in 1953. (There was something like three months between his death and its official announcement.)


----------



## HarryCulo (Aug 18, 2006)

I got a bottle of Martini & Rossi Austi Spumante that I've been saving for this special occasion, and I am very anxious to pop the cork on this sonamabeech, *ASA*f'n*P* !!!!!!!

:gn


----------



## HarryCulo (Aug 18, 2006)

mosesbotbol said:


> ..........To some, Castro is a despised figure,


 This is a mild understatement



mosesbotbol said:


> to others a symbol of social equality.


True, everybody in Cuba is *equally poor*



mosesbotbol said:


> Either way, I think he's been the most savvy leader of the 20th century.


If by savvy you mean a "ruthless guerilla dictator who slaughtered any opposition", then yes, he is very savvy



mosesbotbol said:


> To hold power so long against the backdrop of the world's strongest super power is testament to his political skill.


Skill?? Hmm, not in politics.... but maybe in the art of public executions. Normally in politics leaders are *elected*, but at the moment I can't recall the name of one single candidate who has ever run against Castro (or any of his appointed officials) over the last 45+ years. Maybe because there hasn't been any. When your ad campaign is carrying a rifle and claiming "you're either with the revolution, or against it", well, that sort of narrows your choices.

Please don't take any offense to this mosesbotbol, as there is truly none intended. Castro is a P.O.S., imho. In his last days I wish only much pain and suffering for the farrgin bastahd.

Can you guess my nationality?


----------



## zemekone (Aug 1, 2004)

No disrespect to anyone, but im gonna throw up a prayer for him and the rest of his family... Life is Life


----------



## ATLHARP (May 3, 2005)

M1903A1 said:


> The claim that the average Cuban no longer believes in or supports socialism, let alone Communism, but that they DO believe in Fidel. Once ol' Fidelito is gone...where will the people's support go then? I also say this because I was recently reminded that the same thing happened when Stalin died in 1953. (There was something like three months between his death and its official announcement.)


This is very true, but the difference is Stalin was adored by the people. Believe it or not they viewed him as a god. I think you do have a point. Fidel's presence is ominous on the island (oppressive and threatening as it is) and I think that the people hold the line out of fear knowing that Castro kills friend and foe alike. I don't know how that will be handled with Raul in place as his anointed successor- I do not believe he will be able to hold the reigns the same way Castro does. I believe he is liked far less than his brother.

ATL


----------



## SeanGAR (Jul 9, 2004)

ATLHARP said:


> 1. Murdering millions of Cubans ...


Of course this is untrue. Far more innocent Iraqis have been killed by W's invasion than innocent Cubans killed by Fidel. But who is counting, eh?

I'm not pulling these numbers out of my ass .. look them up.


----------



## M1903A1 (Jun 7, 2006)

SeanGAR said:


> Of course this is untrue. Far more innocent Iraqis have been killed by W's invasion than innocent Cubans killed by Fidel. But who is counting, eh?
> 
> I'm not pulling these numbers out of my ass .. look them up.


Why don't you save us wannabe truth-seekers some time and cybermileage, and post an actual number? (Seriously.)


----------



## Blueface (May 28, 2005)

SeanGAR said:


> Of course this is untrue. Far more innocent Iraqis have been killed by W's invasion than innocent Cubans killed by Fidel. But who is counting, eh?
> 
> I'm not pulling these numbers out of my ass .. look them up.


To a Cuban, that analogy is as offensive perhaps as I can imagine the same being said about the Holocaust to a Jew.

Lets replace the words:
Of course this is untrue. Far more innocent Iraqis have been killed by W's invasion than innocent *Jews* killed by *Hitler*. But who is counting, eh?

Sean, you are an intelligent guy.
How can you compare declared war to political oppression where people disappear from their home in the middle of the night, never to be found again simply because they oppose the political view in power?

That is all I will post on this sore subject.
Off to other threads.


----------



## Blueface (May 28, 2005)

zemekone said:


> No disrespect to anyone, but im gonna throw up a prayer for him and the rest of his family... Life is Life


No disrespect taken.
You are a good man.

Unfortunately, you are praying for a man that abolished the church and has never believed in God. He is a mass murderer piece of chit that should rot in hell but unfortunately the devil is much too smart to take him in. No way does he want the chance of being overthrown by Castro.

I would seriously pray for the children of the world, world hunger, peace, ozone layer, cure for cancer and anything else that comes to mind that will do good for mankind. Don't waste your prayers on a piece of chit that has outlived real good men and women. He has outlived my mother in law, who came with four children, having to leave her husband in Cuba to be forever separated, left her oldest child behind, and worked for minimum wages for nearly 40 years in this country of ours. She died two months ago before she could see the man that brought this misery to her die first. I pray for her.

I pray the Devil decides to accept him and he pays for his crimes to the Cuban society.
I pray he truly rots in hell.
Hatred is something no one should have but boy am I filled with hatred for this animal glorified by people that have no clue what it is like to live there.


----------



## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

ATLHARP said:


> Well truly I think the reports are accurate, but they have been wrong before. Either way the man is on borrowed time just like all despots are. He has been without a doubt a savvy leader much the same as Stalin, Hitler and any other genocidal mass murderer has been.
> 
> ATL


The political leaders you compare Castro to, are the most famous or infamous leaders of modern times. Castro's regime has out lasted both theirs. How Castro is remembered will vary on what history book one reads.


----------



## Hydrated (Aug 9, 2006)

Blueface said:


> How can you compare declared war to political oppression where people disappear from their home in the middle of the night, never to be found again simply because they oppose the political view in power?


I used to be pretty ambivalent to this whole concept because I never really thought about the specifics of it very much. I'd always heard the phrase "dragged away in the night", but it never really rang true. It seemed like a cliche out of a cheap spy novel. But then I got into a conversation with a great guy who actually lived through "The Revolution".... and the true life picture that he painted for me changed my views on this subject forever.

He (let's call him Juan) was a young boy when Che and Fidel took over Cuba. Juan's father was your average working class guy with a wife and son. After the Revolution, Fidel's followers roamed the neighborhoods recruiting people into "The Party". Juan's father made the mistake of thinking that he actually had a choice, so he declined membership in Fidel's Revolutionary party. He said that he didn't think that these guys were taking the country in the right direction.

Some days later, Juan's father was snatched from his own bed literally in the middle of the night... right in front of his wife and son... by men who invoked the name of Fidel... on the orders of Fidel.

For the next year and a half, they didn't know whether Dad was dead or alive. When they did get news that he was alive, they were not allowed to see or communicate with him. It would be 5 long years of uncertainty before he would be released from prison and exiled to America.

During that 5 years, Juan and his mother lived on the ragged edge of poverty and starvation. They had no choice but to live on the kindness of others who risked their own safety to feed or shelter them. Mother worked whatever odd jobs she could, but who would employ a woman who's husband was a counter-revolutionary?? All of this misery because an average Joe disagreed with a man named Fidel...

So you may hate George Bush. You may disagree with his policies. I hated Bill Clinton. But you know what? America is a noble country, and we generally try to do the right thing. You don't get locked away for speaking your mind, and you have the freedom to be a rocket scientist or a vagabond... it's your choice.

But when an American is so ignorant that he compares any American president, and I mean any of them, to that ruthless and vile Cuban dictator... that is truly offensive.


----------



## HarryCulo (Aug 18, 2006)

Blueface said:


> No disrespect taken.
> You are a good man.
> 
> Unfortunately, you are praying for a man that abolished the church and has never believed in God. He is a mass murderer piece of chit that should rot in hell but unfortunately the devil is much too smart to take him in. No way does he want the chance of being overthrown by Castro.
> ...


Yeah...... what he said!!!

And by the way, I'm saying a prayer for Castro too, but it has nothing to do with getting better. :gn

And *Hydrated*, I'd smoke a cigar with you any day. :w


----------



## ATLHARP (May 3, 2005)

SeanGAR said:


> Of course this is untrue. Far more innocent Iraqis have been killed by W's invasion than innocent Cubans killed by Fidel. But who is counting, eh?
> 
> I'm not pulling these numbers out of my ass .. look them up.


BULLCRAP! You know not what you speak. Castro is a murdering despot who has murdered in the millions. Once he dies and his regime crumbles, they will find mass graves much the same as Saddam.

"W's invasion" has liberated a people who were oppressed by a vicious despot and I still think it was the right move, regardless if you have a soft spot for autocratic genocidal murderers or terrorists. Again I stand by what I say "Those who love the truth will see his regime for what it is, and those that don't will still provide excuses for his regime". Those who disregard Castro's atrocities are on the same level as Holocaust Deniers.

The only innocents being killed in Iraq are by Al Qaeda. They target civilians and use them for cannon fodder. I just wish for once you and those like you would see who the real enemy of the people is. One liberates civilians, the other targets them- can you figure that one out or are you still sippin' the Kool-Aid?

ATL


----------



## ATLHARP (May 3, 2005)

mosesbotbol said:


> The political leaders you compare Castro to, are the most famous or infamous leaders of modern times. Castro's regime has out lasted both theirs. How Castro is remembered will vary on what history book one reads.


Agreed, I am most interested what history books in Cuba will say once his empire of oppression crumbles and fades away. Castro though has not outlasted the most oppressive and bloody empire of all-The Soviet Union. It really doesn't matter though evil like that can't last forever, it always ends up destroying itself.

ATL


----------



## SeanGAR (Jul 9, 2004)

ATLHARP said:


> BULLCRAP! You know not what you speak. Castro is a murdering despot who has murdered in the millions. Once he dies and his regime crumbles, they will find mass graves much the same as Saddam.
> 
> "W's invasion" has liberated a people who were oppressed by a vicious despot and I still think it was the right move, *regardless if you have a soft spot for autocratic genocidal murderers or terrorists.* Again I stand by what I say "Those who love the truth will see his regime for what it is, and those that don't will still provide excuses for his regime". Those who disregard Castro's atrocities are on the same level as Holocaust Deniers.
> 
> ...


Bullcrap? Castro has certainly NOT killed in the millions. I'd like to see one reference for this ridiculous statement. ONE. Heck, I'd even take a reference from Drudge.

Context: In the 7 years that Batista was in power, some 20,000 Cubans were killed.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/COLDcastroF.htm.

Does that make Castro better ... certainly not ... but the context that you so blithly ignore is startling.

_In the three years that followed the revolution, 250,000 Cubans out of a population of six million left the country. Most of these were from the upper and middle-classes who were financially worse off as a result of Castro's policies._

When Castro came to power, there were 6 million or so living in Cuba. Many of the rich fled.

From wiki "Thousands of political opponents to the Castro regime have been killed, primarily during the first decade of his leadership;[98] however exact numbers are not known.".

Exact numbers are not known, but the number is in the THOUSANDS, not MILLIONS. Again, show me the references.

I did not say that everybody who is killed these days in Iraq are innocent, most are terrorists as you correcty point out, but during the invasion it is estimated that more than 4000 civilians were killed in Iraq in the FIRST DAYS of W's war. http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1073070,00.html

Earlier this year, the LA times said that up to 50,000 Iraqis were killed, most civilians. Last year an Iraqi humanitarian organization estimated that 128,000 Iraqis have been killed since the invasion. Another reference in '04 put the number over 100,000.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/29/iraq.deaths/

So the number of civilians killed in W's war in Iraq is in the tens of thousands, perhaps much higher. The number of Cubans killed by Castro certainly does not reach the millions as you suggest.

The ad hominem attack I have hilighted for you up above shows your inability to debate in a civilized manner. Your pathetic, insulting and puerile comment does not deserve the response I have provided.

Another reference for you. They have estimated 9000 killed by Castro.

http://www.tbo.com/news/nationworld/MGBJLU5B4RE.html

You have only to find 991,000 more.


----------



## LasciviousXXX (Oct 12, 2004)

Gentleman, while I appreciate the relatively civilized debate going on in here and the absence of name calling, I would remind you that this thread is about Castro's failing health and its impact on the world of Habanos.

While I have nothing against good wholesome political debate, this thread is not the place for it. If you would like to further continue debating the similarities and differences between Castro and Bush please do it in the appropriate Forum under its own thread.

Thank you.

Dustin
XXX


----------



## Pablo (Oct 13, 1997)

Here we go...o


----------



## tecnorobo (Mar 29, 2005)

pds said:


> Here we go...o


aye. I think it may be time to spark up a good habano.


----------



## Blueface (May 28, 2005)

SeanGAR said:


> They have estimated 9000 killed by Castro.


Dustin,
To your point, this thread is about the news of Castro dying.
I would hope this post fits the bill and if it doesn't and you should remove it, I would think you owe to me and others to also remove the other unrelated political crap in here. Somehow, W always comes into the conversation with some BOTLs. I have no intention of joining a political debate as there is no winner.

Back to the thread at hand the animal is dying.

May he rot in hell.


----------



## LasciviousXXX (Oct 12, 2004)

Blueface said:


> Dustin,
> To your point, this thread is about the news of Castro dying.
> I would hope this post fits the bill and if it doesn't and you should remove it, I would think you owe to me and others to also remove the other unrelated political crap in here. Somehow, W always comes into the conversation with some BOTLs. I have no intention of joining a political debate as there is no winner.
> 
> ...


I didn't mind the political debate this just isn't the appropriate place for it when it starts becoming a Bush vs. Castro thing. I only edited the posts that were posted AFTER I gave the warning. I'm not here to heavy-hand things but the Habanos lounge is not a place for political debate. I understand that things go off topic sometimes and that's fine but I can see where this one is heading and if people want to debate then they should start their own thread in the Everything But Forum.


----------



## Pablo (Oct 13, 1997)

This is just further proof that nothing good ever comes from discussing politics at CS.

Without naming names, I have received 3 PM's about this thread. One user saying they are leaving CS, one user apologizing for the thread (appreciate it, but no need to apologize), and another user asking me what kind of forum we run to let this happen? (note, the last wasn't a user that posted to this thread, and frankly if something like this drives him to PM me all pissed off, he likely won't hang around long...)

The political threads always start off harmless and then escalate into B.S.. Kind of like smoking a cremosa...


----------



## poker (Dec 11, 1997)

I slept at a Holiday Inn Express last night....


----------



## Pablo (Oct 13, 1997)

poker said:


> I slept at a Holiday Inn Express last night....


Ahhhh, someone with real qualifications to comment!


----------



## Made in Dade (Aug 5, 2006)

There are many directions where I can take this, so I will keep it simple. The day Fidel dies will be one of the most happiest days of my life. And to add humor to the situation, if people think Cubans like to party, they haven't seen nothing yet.


----------



## etenpenny (Dec 12, 2005)

poker said:


> I slept at a Holiday Inn Express last night....


unfortunately it wasnt in springfield....:tg from what ive heard the dowrah auction just wasent the same without you, I hope everything is going well


----------



## nem (Aug 2, 2006)

Eh... I really don't know if Fidel is going to die anytime soon, and I don't think anyone beside his doctors and those making up his inner circle can truly answer that question with absolute certainty. At the same time, there is no guarantee that his passing would result in the immediate lifting of the embargo. So I guess we'll have to wait and see. However, I do have a feeling that once the embargo is lifted, the price of Cuban cigars is going to skyrocket. As such, while authentic ISOMs might become available at your local B&M, chances are they will be painfully expensive. So for the time being, the embargo might, just might, be good for everyone's credit card bills.


----------



## horrorview (Jan 27, 2005)

zemekone said:


> No disrespect to anyone, but im gonna throw up a prayer for him and the rest of his family... Life is Life


Amen, brother. Castro's a bastage, but we're all God's children. Some are just bratty is all.


----------



## bpegler (Mar 30, 2006)

ATLHARP said:


> Agreed, I am most interested what history books in Cuba will say once his empire of oppression crumbles and fades away.
> ATL


Does anyone really believe this regime will end with Castro? The Soviets continued well past Stalin, and Raul will just continue the kind of opression that has become so familiar in Cuba. My guess is that Castro dies soon, but nothing changes, except that things may even get worse.


----------



## Made in Dade (Aug 5, 2006)

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1222009,00.html

Another interesting article.


----------



## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

Made in Dade said:


> http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1222009,00.html
> 
> Another interesting article.


Good article. I do not see any change in US policy even if Raul sends the US a "white dove". I forsee even tougher sactions agains Cuba once Fidel dies, as the USA has only used more sactions as a solution rather than trying to be diplomatic to get where they want.

It only makes sense that the USA will continue down the same road with Cuba as it has with its own drug policy. 50 years of failure, yet they still beat the same dead horse.


----------



## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

More evidence that the US is going to further go down the same old road as it has. They are preparing to push our current policy even more when all historical evidence has proved that it hasn't worked.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20061010/pl_afp/uscubasanctions


----------



## GOAT LOCKER (Aug 7, 2004)

mosesbotbol said:


> They are preparing to push our current policy even more when all historical evidence has proved that it hasn't worked.


That depends on your "evidence". Since we do not have the ability to see what the future would have held had we chosen an alternate path, it's pretty senseless to call the embargo a "failure". What we do have is a Cuba that represents little to no military threat to the USA and the region. Yes, Castro (or his brother) is still in power, but they have been minimized as a threat.

One possible "no embargo" alternative to that is a wealthy Marxist state with modern, (possibly nuclear) weapons and a well trained and equipped military that projects its power throughout the region. What if Castro's imperialist adventures of the 70's and 80's had been backed up by a real military? Might we have had a regional conflict just off our shores?

Hindsight is not always 20/20.



mosesbotbol said:


> I do not see any change in US policy even if Raul sends the US a "white dove".


Has the time for the embargo passed? Maybe, but not unless we have some assurances. "White dove"? Cuba's recent alliances with crazies like Chavez and Lula as well as Iran and North Korea make it unlikely they are ready to make the concessions, both political and human rights, required to end the embargo. I'm not sure Fidel and Raul want it to end...


----------



## Blueface (May 28, 2005)

The The Embargo has not worked if solely defined by the fact the Castro regime is still in power. If defined by economic prospering, it has worked in preventing Cuba from doing that. Instead of moving forward in the last 40 years, it has gone back in time at least 50. If defined by having him rely on the Soviet Union who later kissed him good bye, seems to have worked for me.

However, now ask why it hasn't squeezed Castro's nuts completely off?
There are a very many number of reasons but let me ask, do any of you really believe there has been a full 100%, pull all stops, Embargo towards Cuba?
How many really, really believe that?

Do you know who I believe to be the biggest violators of the Embargo?
IMHO, ironically, my mom, my relatives, my friends, my fellow countrymen now living in the US and abroad are the biggest violators.
Do any of you have any idea of the amount of Dollars that are sent to Cuba daily by Cubans in the US? All of which the Cuban government takes 20% off the top?
Do any of you have any idea of the volume of goods such as clothing that is sent to Cuba daily by these same Cubans?
Add to that medicine, eyeglasses, and any other thing you can think of that can be boxed and shipped.

So...........where is the 100% Embargo towards Cuba? Dollars, although banned now, still make the world go round there. They know every famous name brand imaginable and ask for the goods from their US residing relatives by name. Don't any of you fool yourselves into believing they don't know Nike, Coach, Fendi and so on.

The solution, for the Embargo to have been more effective, as painfully tough as it is for my mother to hear this, is that we shouldn't have sent them anything. That should have been banned long ago. Instead, we should have sent them guns and amo so they could rebel. Does anyone really think a Cuban will run in the street and raise hell to overthrow the government if they know a care package used for barter is on its way?

Sadly, the Cubans here in the US that are so set on maintaining the Embargo are the very same ones probably boxing up a package right at this moment to send to Cuba. Unfortunately, that part is pure hypocracy. You can't have it both ways. I don't know what to believe about the Embargo at this time but certainly feel it was appropriate at a time a murderer set on power was a serious threat to the US. Don't forget that madman had nukes aiming at us, right in our own backyard. I would never call the Embargo a complete failure.


----------

