# Beware: More fakes out there.



## JGD (Mar 2, 2009)

Of course most people now know to be very skeptical of any sticks they buy that were also being sold by TL. However, I figured I should warn people who may not know that it looks like there are a ton of fake Dunhills and Davidoffs floating around. Although these have not been confirmed fakes there is some good evidence that a large batch were sold over the last year. 

In order to avoid this, ask the buyer if they have the original box. If so, the chances of them being fake seem to lessen.


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## Perfecto Dave (Nov 24, 2009)

> *Beware: More fakes out there.*


*Man, I was hoping you were talking about headlights and gonna show some pictures!* :hmm:

*Education is a beautiful thing. It's been quite enlightening the last month.* *Like to line them bas tards up and make 'em dance...*:laser:


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## bpegler (Mar 30, 2006)

Also, very clean white bands on cigars that are supposed to be a couple decades old should arouse suspicion.

Keep in mind that there is an active market in counterfeiting NCs as well. Sources, sources.


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## Habano (Jul 5, 2010)

bpegler said:


> Also, very clean white bands on cigars that are supposed to be a couple decades old should arouse suspicion.
> 
> Keep in mind that there is an active market in *counterfeiting NCs* as well. Sources, sources.


Surprising. Any brands in particular?


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## CeeGar (Feb 19, 2007)

Starbuck said:


> Surprising. Any brands in particular?


I know Padron had an issue early on with the anny's. Not sure how it is these days...


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## bpegler (Mar 30, 2006)

Starbuck said:


> Surprising. Any brands in particular?


As was mentioned Padron, as well as Opus X, really any of the high end sticks.

The most common fakes are genuine NCs that have been rebanded as a HTF, often by the seller.

Go visit the DR, where Fuentes are more often fake than not. Very sad stuff.


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## Cigary (Oct 19, 2007)

This is always distressing to hear and see. Counterfeits are always around we need to understand and know our "sources"....are they reliable, do they have history, have they been scrutinized and validated? 

The "hook" of course is that people want to 'deals' and HTF cigars and cost is usually the first hook that lands customers. We have probably the finest group of people on here to filter things through and ask them their opinions or what they know. Use the PM feature to ask these solid members...if in doubt ALWAYS ask questions first before buying. Usually if the deal looks too good to pass up...that's the first indication that something is awry.


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## Rodeo (May 25, 2009)

Unless you've got enough scratch to pay $300-600 per stick for some of these really HTF and rare cigars, you should be ok  If you do have that kind of disposable income, can I stop by for a smoke? Please?


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

A fool and his money are soon parted buyer beware!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:beerchug::faint2:out::tsk:


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## Johnny Rock (Jun 25, 2010)

I have a good friend who owns a restaurant in El Salvador, he brings me some local Costa Rican and Honduran sticks from time to time, some pretty obscure stuff at times. 

The last time he came back with a nice little box of 25 fake "Padron Anniversario 1964 - 2005" (The Label) - 4" X 26 rg coffee infused cigarillos. I was impressed, but let him know they are fake Padron's...However, these are some of the most delicious little cigars I have ever smoked. 

Just goes to show that sometimes the the little (fakers) are pretty damn good. Maybe they are putting these Padron labels on their smokes to get them out there so more people will try them...idk.... 

Needless to say I told him if he ever finds them again, I am a customer...LOL


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## Mr_mich (Sep 2, 2010)

if someone is selling stiks for 50% bellow what they normally sell. Run! you get what you pay for. and for that little scratch, you are most likely getting fakes. Oh and don't buy cigars on craigslist, thats just asking for trouble.


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## JGD (Mar 2, 2009)

Cigary said:


> This is always distressing to hear and see. Counterfeits are always around we need to understand and know our "sources"....are they reliable, do they have history, have they been scrutinized and validated?
> 
> The "hook" of course is that people want to 'deals' and HTF cigars and cost is usually the first hook that lands customers. We have probably the finest group of people on here to filter things through and ask them their opinions or what they know. Use the PM feature to ask these solid members...if in doubt ALWAYS ask questions first before buying. Usually if the deal looks too good to pass up...that's the first indication that something is awry.


Agreed. The problem with this latest issue in particular is that the people selling them were well known BOTLs who were in great standing, not some unknown guy. On top of that it appears that the first of these sales occurred 3 years ago, meaning that many have traveled around in other sales, PIFs, MAWs, etc.

Another problem is that because they have originated from well known people it seems as if the investigation is not as easy.


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## JGD (Mar 2, 2009)

Mr_mich said:


> if someone is selling stiks for 50% bellow what they normally sell. Run! you get what you pay for. and for that little scratch, you are most likely getting fakes. Oh and don't buy cigars on craigslist, thats just asking for trouble.


That does not seem to be the case with the recent problem, as they were sold at market value.


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

JGD said:


> Agreed. The problem with this latest issue in particular is that the people selling them were well known BOTLs who were in great standing, not some unknown guy. On top of that it appears that the first of these sales occurred 3 years ago, meaning that many have traveled around in other sales, PIFs, MAWs, etc.
> 
> Another problem is that because they have originated from well known people it seems as if the investigation is not as easy.


Wow that is being naive no offense intended. Family sometimes cheat family spouses cheat spouses. To trust someone you don't personally know is a long shot at best. I know its really sad but this is the world we live in.:tsk:


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## JGD (Mar 2, 2009)

TonyBrooklyn said:


> Wow that is being naive no offense intended. Family sometimes cheat family spouses cheat spouses. To trust someone you don't personally know is a long shot at best. I know its really sad but this is the world we live in.:tsk:


Naive? Probably. There is always going to be a risk of this happening when buying HTF vintage sticks. The reason being there isn't really another option. That being said, it seems as if this situation was like if you offered to sell me some Party Shorts. Is there any way I can be 100% sure they are real? No. But, with your knowledge it will generally be a safe bet that I will get authentic shorts.

Edit to add: It is important for everyone to understand that there is no way to ensure you have completely authentic Cuban cigars before buying them. Until they are smoked there will always be some chance that they fake. Luckily, there are plenty of ways to reduce your odds of getting fake Cubans (get them from a trustworthy source). However, a bunch of well trusted sources have been known to accidentally send fakes in the past, I have seen pictures of LCdHs with fakes on the shelves, and I have even talked to people who have seen fakes being sold at factory stores in Cuba. Although the three instances I mentioned are rare, they do happen.


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

JGD said:


> Naive? Probably. There is always going to be a risk of this happening when buying HTF vintage sticks. The reason being there isn't really another option. That being said, it seems as if this situation was like if you offered to sell me some Party Shorts. Is there any way I can be 100% sure they are real? No. But, with your knowledge it will generally be a safe bet that I will get authentic shorts.
> 
> Edit to add: It is important for everyone to understand that there is no way to ensure you have completely authentic Cuban cigars before buying them. Until they are smoked there will always be some chance that they fake. Luckily, there are plenty of ways to reduce your odds of getting fake Cubans (get them from a trustworthy source). However, a bunch of well trusted sources have been known to accidentally send fakes in the past, I have seen pictures of LCdHs with fakes on the shelves, and I have even talked to people who have seen fakes being sold at factory stores in Cuba. Although the three instances I mentioned are rare, they do happen.


You just answered your own query. When one has no reference point they are a target. I have been doing this a long time. And have posted many times that i personally. Stay clear of pre releases, HtF, Custom rolls with no known origin for just these reasons. To much that can go wrong and not much that can go right IMHO. Americans buying Cuban Cigars in general with out the benefit of going into a B&M are huge targets for just this reason. As far as fakes in an LCDH or in a Factory in Cuba this is an Urban legend. As i personally have never seen a documented case. LCDH is a franchise if the store owner got caught selling fakes. He would lose everything. Hell look what happened to our friend in Mexico. For selling those farm rolls with no proof of origin. Using a famous tobacco growers name. His franchise is gone he now sells off a grey market site!:tsk:


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## JGD (Mar 2, 2009)

TonyBrooklyn said:


> You just answered your own query. When one has no reference point they are a target. I have been doing this a long time. And have posted many times that i personally. Stay clear of pre releases, HtF, Custom rolls with no known origin for just these reasons. To much that can go wrong and not much that can go right IMHO. Americans buying Cuban Cigars in general with out the benefit of going into a B&M are huge targets for just this reason. As far as fakes in an LCDH or in a Factory in Cuba this is an Urban legend. As i personally have never seen a documented case. LCDH is a franchise if the store owner got caught selling fakes. He would lose everything. Hell look what happened to our friend in Mexico. For selling those farm rolls with no proof of origin. Using a famous tobacco growers name. His franchise is gone he now sells off a grey market site!:tsk:


I'm not sure if my wording was clear originally. I wasn't asking anything, but merely warning the people here of the issue and the risks. Many people think it is safe when buying from well respected BOTLs, that is not true. So, we are on the same page regarding that issue.

As for LCdHs selling fakes as an urban legend, that is not true. I'll try to find some posts on other boards with more instances on both LCdHs and Factories, however, a clear example of this is the LCdH in the Atlantis Hotel. A video posted on Puff last year showed the owner touting fake OR Behikes.


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## HydroRaven (Oct 10, 2010)

JGD said:


> I'll try to find some posts on other boards with more instances on both LCdHs and Factories, however, a clear example of this is the LCdH in the Atlantis Hotel. A video posted on Puff last year showed the owner touting fake OR Behikes.


I'd be interested in seeing that video.


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## JGD (Mar 2, 2009)

Another fun story about fakes while I'm thinking of it. There is a place in St. Maarten (I won't list the name because the sell online as well) that while not a LcDH is a verified authorized dealer by S.A. The store is on the second floor of a building and requires you enter through the downstairs store to get in. The store downstairs (owned by someone else) sells fake cubans (and fake NCs) among other tourist stuff. I had a very funny conversation with the woman who was running the store upstairs about it.


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

HydroRaven said:


> I'd be interested in seeing that video.


As would i!


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## JGD (Mar 2, 2009)

HydroRaven said:


> I'd be interested in seeing that video.





TonyBrooklyn said:


> As would i!


I think it was this one, it won't load correctly for me right now so it may have been part 1.

Unique Items for Sale - Smoking in the Bahamas Part 2


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## Johnny Rock (Jun 25, 2010)

JGD said:


> Another fun story about fakes while I'm thinking of it. I had a very funny conversation with the woman who was running the store upstairs about it.


....well??? Did your computer crash????opcorn:


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

JGD said:


> I think it was this one, it won't load correctly for me right now so it may have been part 1.
> 
> Unique Items for Sale - Smoking in the Bahamas Part 2


I remember that video i came to see it wound up joining puff as it was such a cool place! That cigar store is not an LCDH! And i wish anyone searching for authentic Cuban Cigars in the Bahama's much luck!:beerchug:

You will notice no listing for any LCDH's in the Bahama's!

http://www.lacasadelhabano.cu/site/content/view/31/52/lang,en/


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## JGD (Mar 2, 2009)

Johnny Rock said:


> ....well??? Did your computer crash????opcorn:


Haha sorry, it was just about how the people downstairs were assholes for selling fakes.


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## JGD (Mar 2, 2009)

TonyBrooklyn said:


> I remember that video i came to see it wound up joining puff as it was such a cool place! That cigar store is not an LCDH! And i wish anyone searching for authentic Cuban Cigars in the Bahama's much luck!:beerchug:
> 
> You will notice no listing for any LCDH's in the Bahama's!
> 
> La Casa del Habano


My mistake, I thought it was.

Also as for offical stores, although I have my doubts about this case in particular because the stories I have heard involved pre-baged three packs. See the following thread:
http://www.cigarforums.net/forums/v...ion/290788-what-your-most-prized-stick-3.html (Page 3)
http://www.cigarforums.net/forums/v...ion/290788-what-your-most-prized-stick-4.html (Page 4)


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

JGD said:


> My mistake, I thought it was.
> 
> Also as for offical stores, although I have my doubts about this case in particular because the stories I have heard involved pre-baged three packs. See the following thread:
> http://www.cigarforums.net/forums/v...ion/290788-what-your-most-prized-stick-3.html (Page 3)
> http://www.cigarforums.net/forums/v...ion/290788-what-your-most-prized-stick-4.html (Page 4)


I have many friends that live outside of the states and travel to Cuba. There are fake singles sold in government stores. They are switched by the people working there trying to make a buck. The rule is in government stores no singles 3 or 5 packs only box purchases. Even then inspect carefully, many are duped as boxes are switched at time of sale. Make sure the box never leaves your hand. I think this is what you are referring to. I think You got your wires crossed. In a factory store this has never happened.


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## JGD (Mar 2, 2009)

TonyBrooklyn said:


> LCDH is a franchise if the store owner got caught selling fakes. He would lose everything. Hell look what happened to our friend in Mexico. For selling those farm rolls with no proof of origin. Using a famous tobacco growers name. His franchise is gone he now sells off a grey market site!:tsk:


I forgot to respond to this. I was under the impression that he was in the process of opening a new, much bigger LcDH (for some reason I thought that he never had one until recently) and the reason he stopped selling the customs was because he was opening the new store. Has this changed in the last couple weeks? I know he posted pictures in a private group on another forum of the new store (it looked awesome btw).


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## JGD (Mar 2, 2009)

TonyBrooklyn said:


> I have many friends that live outside of the states and travel to Cuba. There are fake singles sold in government stores. They are switched by the people working there trying to make a buck. The rule is in government stores no singles 3 or 5 packs only box purchases. Even then inspect carefully, many are duped as boxes are switched at time of sale. Make sure the box never leaves your hand. I think this is what you are referring to. I think You got your wires crossed. In a factory store this has never happened.


This may very well be the case, I remember reading a post about it a while back, but I can't remember what thread it was in. But it still goes back to my original point: You can never be 100% sure of the authenticity until your taste buds confirm it. Agree?


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

JGD said:


> I forgot to respond to this. I was under the impression that he was in the process of opening a new, much bigger LcDH (for some reason I thought that he never had one until recently) and the reason he stopped selling the customs was because he was opening the new store. Has this changed in the last couple weeks? I know he posted pictures in a private group on another forum of the new store (it looked awesome btw).


All i have is hearsay but the grapevine is accurate! Habano's has refused to re supply him that's why there is no stock on his site. There are rumors of him opening another store with a parter. Sorta like my friend Jimmy he owns a bar. But can't get a liquor license so he has a partner understand.:beerchug:


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## bpegler (Mar 30, 2006)

I know for a fact that one of the LCdH in Germany sold an extremely rare box of cigars that was fake. Caused a huge uproar. Also, the very well known store in England sold some boxes of Che cigars without making it clear that they were re-releases. 

Even a LCdH can get in trouble.


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## bpegler (Mar 30, 2006)

TonyBrooklyn said:


> All i have is hearsay but the grapevine is accurate! Habano's has refused to re supply him that's why there is no stock on his site. There are rumors of him opening another store with a parter. Sorta like my friend Jimmy he owns a bar. But can't get a liquor license so he has a partner understand.:beerchug:


He is leaving Mexico altogether. Habanos SA was upset about the use of the Robaina name in advertising.

Really upset.


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

bpegler said:


> I know for a fact that one of the LCdH in Germany sold an extremely rare box of cigars that was fake. Caused a huge uproar. Also, the very well known store in England sold some boxes of Che cigars without making it clear that they were re-releases.
> 
> Even a LCdH can get in trouble.


The store in Germany is in bed with M O the man from England! With the impeccable reputation in his country. Ripping off what he thinks are dumb Americans is a game for him i know many taken by him.


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

bpegler said:


> He is leaving Mexico altogether. Habanos SA was upset about the use of the Robaina name in advertising.
> 
> Really upset.


That's what i heard his grey market site is up and running though!:faint2:


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## bpegler (Mar 30, 2006)

TonyBrooklyn said:


> The store in Germany is in bed with M O the man from England! With the impeccable reputation in his country. Ripping off what he thinks are dumb Americans is a game for him i know many taken by him.


The problem is that they also have access to some of the genuine articles, including those cigars that begin will a D....

Hard to understand why they dabble in ripping people off by mis representation.


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

bpegler said:


> The problem is that they also have access to some of the genuine articles, including those cigars that begin will a D....
> 
> Hard to understand why they dabble in ripping people off by mis representation.


Go to bed with dogs wake up with flea's comes to mind. Or show me who you stay with i will tell you who you are!


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## JGD (Mar 2, 2009)

bpegler said:


> He is leaving Mexico altogether. Habanos SA was upset about the use of the Robaina name in advertising.
> 
> Really upset.


Interesting. I guess I missed those latest occurances. It is quite understandable why S.A. was upset. Any word on weather the Robaina family or HJ got in trouble for supplying them with the cigars? I was always unclear if they did so with authorization or without the knowledge of S.A.


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## bc8436 (Feb 12, 2011)

Heard about the uproar over the HTF sticks, it's quite a mess. 

Whenever I am tempted to buy an extremely HTF ... I remind myself of the 'Holy Grail' scene in Indiana Jones, and get a box of regular release instead :bounce:


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## Rock31 (Sep 30, 2010)

Thanks for this thread...lots of good information for us new guys!


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## JGD (Mar 2, 2009)

Just wanted to post again in regards to my OP in this thread. An interesting analysis has been posted in the forum where this issue was brought up. Guys, be very, very cautions when buying Dunhills and Davidoffs. I'm currently waiting to talk to some guys about the ones that I obtained last month. Unfortunately, I'm not very hopeful on their provence.


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## asmartbull (Aug 16, 2009)

JGD said:


> Just wanted to post again in regards to my OP in this thread. An interesting analysis has been posted in the forum where this issue was brought up. Guys, be very, very cautions when buying Dunhills and Davidoffs. I'm currently waiting to talk to some guys about the ones that I obtained last month. Unfortunately, I'm not very hopeful on their provence.


Jim
All this sadness.....
Time to cheer you up.....:biggrin:


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## JGD (Mar 2, 2009)

asmartbull said:


> Jim
> All this sadness.....
> Time to cheer you up.....:biggrin:


Ut oh...

I must say though, I have talked to people who my vintage sticks originated with, and it appears I have gotten lucky.

P.S. Bull- Don't do anything that you may regret...


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## Rock31 (Sep 30, 2010)

Bull v Jim....I like where This is going.

@Jim I am glad it is looking good for your cigars!


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## astripp (Jan 12, 2011)

I don't have a robust enough collection to chase LEs. In the fall I might try to chase a box of the SLR RE Asia Piramides, since their buzz is pretty high, but I've got a laundry list of regular production to get before I'm stocked with normal production. I tell this to myself as my safety since who will counterfeit JL or PL?


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## JGD (Mar 2, 2009)

astripp said:


> I don't have a robust enough collection to chase LEs. In the fall I might try to chase a box of the SLR RE Asia Piramides, since their buzz is pretty high, but I've got a laundry list of regular production to get before I'm stocked with normal production. I tell this to myself as my safety since who will counterfeit JL or PL?


It appears that TL was selling fake SLR and PL REs. That said, I think you would be safer with those brands.

Luckily, you can get most REs from known sources, so you can guard against counterfeits a bit easier.


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## asmartbull (Aug 16, 2009)

JGD said:


> It appears that TL was selling fake SLR and PL REs. That said, I think you would be safer with those brands.
> 
> Luckily, you can get most REs from known sources, so you can guard against counterfeits a bit easier.


eep:


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## bpegler (Mar 30, 2006)

It is sad to watch entire cigar boards get ripped to shreds over this.

It's rough out there.

BTW, I know it's easy to complain about our moderators, but when you see what happens elsewhere, I think our team is heads and shoulders above the rest. We have managed to talk about these issues without destroying relationships here.


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## JGD (Mar 2, 2009)

bpegler said:


> It is sad to watch entire cigar boards get ripped to shreds over this.
> 
> It's rough out there.
> 
> BTW, I know it's easy to complain about our moderators, but when you see what happens elsewhere, I think our team is heads and shoulders above the rest. We have managed to talk about these issues without destroying relationships here.


I completely agree.


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## asmartbull (Aug 16, 2009)

bpegler said:


> It is sad to watch entire cigar boards get ripped to shreds over this.
> 
> It's rough out there.
> 
> BTW, I know it's easy to complain about our moderators, but when you see what happens elsewhere, I think our team is heads and shoulders above the rest. We have managed to talk about these issues without destroying relationships here.


Ya know a little direction from the mods could have prevented that train wreck....


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## Kook (Apr 20, 2010)

I'm trying to figure out if I got a fake or if its just me. I had a Cohiba Siglo VI on Sun. Its flavors were pretty flat and it never gave off the full twang. The twang creept out a couple times, but was barely noticable. 

I haven't had too many CCs and its been a while since I've had one. I'm trying to figure out if its just me. I've got some Siglo II's that I got along with the VI's so perhaps they'll give me a better idea.


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## astripp (Jan 12, 2011)

What was the age on it? A Siglo VI will need some time.


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## Kook (Apr 20, 2010)

astripp said:


> What was the age on it? A Siglo VI will need some time.


I was told it was an '06


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## Habano (Jul 5, 2010)

Kook said:


> I was told it was an '06


An 06 Siglo VI should have been smoking quite nicely to be honest.


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## jakesmokes (Mar 10, 2011)

JGD said:


> Of course most people now know to be very skeptical of any sticks they buy that were also being sold by TL. .


TL? Tobacco Locker? They sell fakes? Oh man. I buy a fair amount from them these days. Padrons, anyway. But I usually buy boxes and they seem legit from what I can tell since I get mine from different sources and they all smoke consistently.


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## ckay (May 10, 2010)

David, TL is a user of onlinehumidor.com

Tobacco Locker is legitimate. Too many acronyms in the cigar world so I understand the confusion.


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

bpegler said:


> It is sad to watch entire cigar boards get ripped to shreds over this.
> 
> It's rough out there.
> 
> BTW, I know it's easy to complain about our moderators, but when you see what happens elsewhere, I think our team is heads and shoulders above the rest. We have managed to talk about these issues without destroying relationships here.


Couldn't agree more we have the best Mods around!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:cheer2::cheer2::cheer2::cheer2::cheer2:


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## ckay (May 10, 2010)

Can a mod edit my post please?


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## jakesmokes (Mar 10, 2011)

ckay said:


> David, TL is a user of onlinehumidor.com
> 
> Tobacco Locker is legitimate. Too many acronyms in the cigar world so I understand the confusion.


Whew. Okay. Thanks for the clarification.

David


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