# Teach me about vintage



## SilverFox (Feb 19, 2008)

Allright I am going to put it out there. I am leaving my current job at the end of March and starting a different one and during the transition I have a fair bit of time on my hands which is why I am always on CS when the new job starts I will be slowing my forum touring down to just evenings and weekends.

Anyway in my usual blathering introduction kind of way what I am getting at is I have read many many many threads and I have seen a lot of you talking about smoking Cigars from the mid 80's or the 90's now the oldest Cigars I have in my Humi's are the R&J 05's I mentioned in my other post, don't get me wrong they are damn good but not better in the extreme than say the '07 H d M Epicure #2's that I have.

So my question is this. What makes them better, or at least different. A little lesson here for me would be great. I have quite a few Cigars in my Humi's now, should I just let them age?

How do I know what will age and what won't?

I love my Cubans and I have been at cigars for quite some time but in a ton of ways I am still wet behind the ears so your input would be appreciated.

Thanks all.


----------



## BamaDoc77 (Jan 31, 2007)

silverfox67 said:


> Allright I am going to put it out there. I am leaving my current job at the end of March and starting a different one and during the transition I have a fair bit of time on my hands which is why I am always on CS when the new job starts I will be slowing my forum touring down to just evenings and weekends.
> 
> Anyway in my usual blathering introduction kind of way what I am getting at is I have read many many many threads and I have seen a lot of you talking about smoking Cigars from the mid 80's or the 90's now the oldest Cigars I have in my Humi's are the R&J 05's I mentioned in my other post, don't get me wrong they are damn good but not better in the extreme than say the '07 H d M Epicure #2's that I have.
> 
> ...


That Cohiba Maduro you gave away and that Plume laden San Cristobal in your other threads have me drooling. Confuscious say, "You have all knowledge you need Grasshopper":tu


----------



## SilverFox (Feb 19, 2008)

BamaDoc77 said:


> That Cohiba Maduro you gave away and that Plume laden San Cristobal in your other threads have me drooling. Confuscious say, "You have all knowledge you need Grasshopper":tu


:ss When I saw the plume on the San Cristobal's I had to pick em up. I might just suck it up and by the rest of em tomorrow. Uggh I have no willpower what so ever.

But that doesn't mean I understand a vintage cigar from a cigar that doesn't need to be aged or shouldn't be??? Or is it just a matter of sticking them in the box and hoping for the best?


----------



## wayner123 (Mar 29, 2007)

This is my take on it as far as I can tell. So please anyone else reading this know that this is just my honest opinion.

Most people consider a "vintage" smoke as one that has been aged 10 years. There is debate on that number but for the most part that is accepted. So first you have to ask yourself, do you want a vintage cigar or an aged one? 

An aged one can be anything from 1-9 years. I have even seen people describe an aged cigar as 6 months. So keeping with the timeline of 10 years, are you prepared to wait that long to smoke a cigar? I think the answer lies with each person. Personally, I prefer a fresh CC. Not a whole lot of Americans follow my preference, but for me I like the somewhat tannic taste. 

I find that with most "vintage" cigars it holds true more times than not that letting them age for the amount of time referenced above smooths out the rough edges. The flavors meld and mild a bit. Now that doesn't hold true for every cigar (I have had some 95's and 96's that would make you fall over) but for the most part it's accurate.

As to what ages well, then you have to smoke one fresh first. If you smoke a cigar fresh and a bitter, tannic or ammonia like flavor comes across it might do well to allow the flavors to meld a bit, so that they come together without the harshness. Smooth is the the operative word. 

I'll let some other more experienced members chime in here (chibnkr & Da Klugs namely) But for my experience it all boils down to preference and how much time and money you are willing to spend.


----------



## dvickery (Jan 1, 2000)

silverfox67 said:


> So my question is this. What makes them better, or at least different. A little lesson here for me would be great. I have quite a few Cigars in my Humi's now, should I just let them age?
> 
> I have quite a few Cigars in my Humi's now, should I just let them age?
> 
> How do I know what will age and what won't?


silverfox67

What makes them better, or at least different.

for one thing...the lip sting goes away , nasty juicy stuff(that causes lip sting)goes away.flavours change(this i find impossible to explain why)in a way that i like.burn and draw improve to the way i like em.an added bonus for me...for at least the first ten years(almost all) habanos increase in strength.

How do I know what will age and what won't?

for me i honestly believe...all habanos benifit from at least three years aging . i wouldnt be afraid to age any cigars for a hundred years...and still expect a hundred years old cigar to be better than a 99 years old cigar(provided i get to age them from their youth).

I have quite a few Cigars in my Humi's now, should I just let them age?

i have done it with patience and guesswork(how did i know what i wanted to smoke in ten years in '00 or '01)and seem to have done okay.i just buy more cigars than i smoke and have done so for nine years now.nothing too special just the stuff on the shelves in havana.

it is nice to be at a point were i can smoke ten year old smokes whenever i want(or all the time for that matter)...i say you should "just let them age".

hope this helps a bit
derrek


----------



## The Professor (Jul 20, 2006)

dvickery said:


> for one thing...the lip sting goes away , nasty juicy stuff(that causes lip sting)goes away.flavours change(*this i find impossible to explain why*)in a way that i like.burn and draw improve to the way i like em.an added bonus for me...for at least the first ten years(almost all) habanos increase in strength.


From what I understand (and it's a limited understanding, mind you), this has to do with changes in organic compounds that take place through fermentation of the tobacco both before the cigars are rolled and after. One reason the blends from 2006/07 have been smoking better fresher might be because tobacco has been aged longer before being used to roll the cigars. Once boxed, the same chemical process occurs as cigars age.

I hate to cite him (because it makes me feel just a little slimey), but Suckling just blogged about this today from the Festival Habanos. Here's the germane paragraph:

A professor from the Cuban Tobacco Institute explained, if I correctly understood his Spanish, that they ferment the tobacco in a way so that all the organic material is not completely used up during the processes. So as a cigar ages it is like a very slow fermentation. When the cigar gets to about 10 or 15 years, the organic material turns inorganic and it, therefore, burns much better. "This," he said, "gives you richer aromas than younger cigars but a much more mild and refined flavor."​
The "What exactly is the "Sick Period"?" (sticky at the top of the forum) thread explains some of the technical aspects of this process vis-a-vis what's known as the "sick period"; but it's relevant here, I think, too.

I hope that helps a little. Everything Derrek said is spot-on, too, IMHO. :tu


----------



## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

Other people in this thread have given good explanations of what can happen to cigars/tobacco as it ages, so I won't bother reiterating it.

However keep in mind, too, that tobacco crops are living, evolving things. The tobacco used to produce cigars in the 1980's, 1990's, and the present day is not going to taste the same. Anyone who has been smoking for a great length of time will likely tell you about the evolution of various marca blends... how they have changed over time.

Certainly the master blenders do what they can to try to preserve the essence of a cigar blend year over year with their tobacco crop, but understand it is not a static thing. Just like wine has certain vintage years that represent a fantastic nexus of weather, crop yields, and other growing conditions, so too does tobacco.

Unfortunately, it is simply impossible to judge these tastes side by side; there is no way to smoke a 10 year old Bolivar from the 1980's compared to a 10 year old Bolivar from the 1990's.


----------



## Navydoc (Jan 26, 2005)

Aging cigars is a very interesting and personnal process. First and foremost is the individuals palette. You will find some who love the taste of younger cigars and wouldn't smoke a vintage cuban if you paid them - vice versa is as equally true. I also believe (as Moki pointed out) that the tobacco crops vary year to year rather than specific blend changes. I also don't believe one can smoke a cigar from one decade and project the anticipated development of the same cigar from another decade. Basically, you age cigars, you taste them periodically and when you sit down and enjoy the entire cigar and wonder "how much better can it get?" it's probably ready for you to enjoy....some just take longer to reach that point.


----------



## Bear (Sep 22, 2007)

To expand on the OP...

When it comes to ageing your cigars, how many would you do? Does it make sense for a person with a 100 count humi to leave 5 Cubans in there for 10 years and expect a great aged cigar? I would think that a person wishing to get into ageing cigars would have to have a sizeable collection to be willing to set some aside. Also, do the age better in a dress box, cab or on a tray / loosely stacked in a humi?

I know I don't have the discipline to do it... Don't think I could keep my hands off 'em!


----------



## wayner123 (Mar 29, 2007)

Bear said:


> *I know I don't have the discipline to do it... Don't think I could keep my hands off 'em!*


Then I say don't worry about it. If you are enjoying them now, then aging will only put off the enjoyment.:tu


----------



## Navydoc (Jan 26, 2005)

Bear said:


> To expand on the OP...
> 
> When it comes to ageing your cigars, how many would you do? *Depends how often you want to enjoy an aged cuban cigar*... Does it make sense for a person with a 100 count humi to leave 5 Cubans in there for 10 years and expect a great aged cigar? *No.. *I would think that a person wishing to get into ageing cigars would have to have a sizeable collection to be willing to set some aside. *Again depends on how many you smoke a day/week/month etc..* Also, do they age better in a dress box, cab or on a tray / loosely stacked in a humi? *In order of pref. 1/. Cab 2/. Dress box 3/. Usually never loose if you are ageing*
> 
> I know I don't have the discipline to do it... Don't think I could keep my hands off 'em!


Maybe this helps... :2


----------



## Bear (Sep 22, 2007)

Navydoc said:


> Maybe this helps... :2


It did. Thanks! :tu


----------



## the nub (Mar 24, 2006)

I find that as a cigar ages, the flavor intensity and cohesivenss of those flavors increases. In general, I find youthful cigars have a muddled profile. Flavors may be distinct, though generally I find they are not. It's like a pot of chili. First day the flavors are sharp and pronounced but wait till the next day they are more in balance and mesh together.


----------



## acruce (Dec 29, 2007)

I don't know much about ageing , but I must say I have found this thread very intersting .....Thanks


----------



## Silound (May 22, 2007)

The biggest thing to remember is that the nicotine and other compounds in the tobacco will eventually break down and disappear from the tobacco.

If you've ever smoked a cigarette that you considered "stale," that's actually the artificial chemicals dissipating and making it seem different. In the same way, when the natural chemicals break down, they change the taste of a cigar by reducing certain flavors or traits that were previously prominent.


----------



## SilverFox (Feb 19, 2008)

Ok I am starting to get a bit of this.

Now some other questions. If I am aging sticks and don't have room in my humidors for boxes nor do I want to get another humidor (the slope is slippery enough without adding capacity) lets say I want to age some groups of 10 sticks. How can I do this without blending them with others in my box? Can I make mini cabs out of them?

If so how would you suggest going about that?

Should I wrap them in ribbon or something?

Should I rotate the cigars so that not always the same sticks are on the outside of the cab?

How long is a good length to age before trying one, assuming I am not going for "Vintage" just a good aged smoke?

Thanks for the input so far, as usual the Gorillas in here are awesome.


----------



## rumballs (Mar 15, 2005)

This doesn't answer any of the questions posed, but just one idea... Go into a local cigar store and ask them what they have that has some age on it. They may just happen to have one or two boxes of something that are older, and you can buy one and try it...
:2


----------



## SilverFox (Feb 19, 2008)

mmblz said:


> This doesn't answer any of the questions posed, but just one idea... Go into a local cigar store and ask them what they have that has some age on it. They may just happen to have one or two boxes of something that are older, and you can buy one and try it...
> :2


Actually the reason that I am trying to find out about this whole aging thing is that I have

2005 R&J Piramide Edicion Limitada
2005 San Cristobal De La Habana La Punta

And they are damn good, the R&J's I have had about a year but my humi was relatively spacious so I don't know if they blended with others or not, the SC's I bought aged.

If I have others in my box I would like to age how would I go about it? Sorry if these are stupid question just figure there is no point in wrecking a perfectly good cigar


----------



## rumballs (Mar 15, 2005)

As long as you aren't putting flavored cigars (e.g. Acids or White Owls) in the same humi, I wouldn't worry too much about blending flavors.
As long as you aren't keeping a cigar for over say 2 years, I wouldn't worry too much about exact organization / method of storage (just RH and temp).

Also to clarify - if you are lucky at a cigar store, you could find something from the late 90s.
:2


----------



## SilverFox (Feb 19, 2008)

mmblz said:


> As long as you aren't putting flavored cigars (e.g. Acids or White Owls) in the same humi,


Uggghhhh, over my dead body.

Flavored cigars belong with flavored coffee..........and that is anywhere I am not :ss

I have heard mixed results on blending of Cigars in humis though


----------



## K Baz (Mar 2, 2007)

Personally (and this is me only please ignore me if a FOG says other wise).

I would not worry about "mixing" your sticks, especially if they are all cubans. Throw them all together there is various discussion on "marrying" of flavour but most people fell like wrappers can be mixed and some don't think "marrying" happens and if it does it is nil and takes years and years.

The reason most advocate Cabs, especially for aging, is they fell they restrict air flow in the box and cause slower aging but we are talking difference seen over decades. Given this theory single/lose cigars age fast then dress boxes then Cabs. As such you might be best to leave them loose. If you are bond to Cab them I would get the appropriate sized Cab and cut out the middle section to get the height you want. Probably the quickes and easiest (watch out spanish cedar dust is bad mojo).

No Ribbon - but it does make lifting 50 cigars out of a Cab nice and easy (for a quick inspection).

No need to rotate your smokes they are not tires. The less then can be disturb usually the better. The odd inspection for mold or beetles never hurt but usually this can be done with out touching the cigars themselves. Some noted cigar collectors might not look at a box of cigars for years after the inital inspection purchase.

Most Cubans are supposedly coming into there own at around 3 to 5 years according to MRN.

Personally if you are looking to make mini cabs I would look at getting cigars like the Monte Petite Edmondo which comes in a plain box of ten. This would be cheap and easy especially if you looking to get groups of ten anyway. However buying your smokes depending on the type of box they come it might not be the best either.

Most places in Canada will have some cigars with a year or two on them in the shop. Try and aged cigar and a freash - aging cigars is a silly process if you are not sure if you like the end result. Some people like there cigars freash.

Whatever your path enjoy and please pm if you need any clarification.



silverfox67 said:


> Ok I am starting to get a bit of this.
> 
> Now some other questions. If I am aging sticks and don't have room in my humidors for boxes nor do I want to get another humidor (the slope is slippery enough without adding capacity) lets say I want to age some groups of 10 sticks. How can I do this without blending them with others in my box? Can I make mini cabs out of them?
> 
> ...


----------



## rumballs (Mar 15, 2005)

silverfox67 said:


> I have heard mixed results on blending of Cigars in humis though


some people obsess over every little detail and worry about this.

I personally don't think it would do anything noticeable unless you stored the cigars for a very long time.
Maybe I'm naive, but I keep lots of singles in a drawer and have never thought "gee, that one tastes like it picked up some flavor from its neighbor".


----------



## SilverFox (Feb 19, 2008)

mmblz said:


> some people obsess over every little detail and worry about this.
> 
> I personally don't think it would do anything noticeable unless you stored the cigars for a very long time.
> Maybe I'm naive, but I keep lots of singles in a drawer and have never thought "gee, that one tastes like it picked up some flavor from its neighbor".


LOL you are probably right I wouldn't notice if it did.


----------



## stearns-cl (Feb 27, 2008)

i know this is a stupid question, but im a newb, and just want to make sure. you have to take the celophane off the the stick to age it right, correct?

stearns


----------



## rumballs (Mar 15, 2005)

stearns said:


> i know this is a stupid question, but im a newb, and just want to make sure. you have to take the celophane off the the stick to age it right, correct?
> 
> stearns


nope. leave in or take out, doesn't much matter.
if you search you'll find whole threads discussing that subject...


----------



## hk3 (Jan 29, 2008)

mmblz said:


> As long as you aren't putting flavored cigars (e.g. Acids or White Owls) in the same humi, I wouldn't worry too much about blending flavors.
> As long as you aren't keeping a cigar for over say 2 years, I wouldn't worry too much about exact organization / method of storage (just RH and temp).
> 
> Also to clarify - if you are lucky at a cigar store, you could find something from the late 90s.
> :2


:tpd::chk


----------



## stearns-cl (Feb 27, 2008)

thanks guys

stearns


----------

