# Here Come The Legal Cuban Cigars!



## MoreBeer

This is just a start although within a few years, expect to see your favorite ISOM smokes on the usual websites. There's obvious geopolitical, and crisis averting rationale behind this that I won't go into, although its good news for those who smoke cigars.

*US to start talks with Cuba to normalize full diplomatic relations.*


----------



## TonyBrooklyn

Other presidents have tried this. Even if it changed tomorrow. It would take years.


----------



## HardHeaded

Eh, lets see if it falls apart or not before we get excited.


----------



## Tobias Lutz

I'm going to move this to Cigar Legislation so that it can run its course with the proper audience, and hopefully we'll avoid a bunch of off topic CC discussion outside the Habanos forum.


----------



## tnlawyer

MoreBeer said:


> This is just a start although within a few years, expect to see your favorite ISOM smokes on the usual websites. There's obvious geopolitical, and crisis averting rationale behind this that I won't go into, *although its good news for those who smoke cigars*.
> 
> *US to start talks with Cuba to normalize full diplomatic relations.*


Selfishly, I think it's horrible news for US cigar smokers. Quality will go down as they try to crank out more cigars, and prices will go way up.

Unselfishly, this is the best thing that could happen for the Cuban people.


----------



## StogieNinja

Time to stock up.


----------



## Emperor Zurg

I wonder if the FDA is planning to be so kind as to exempt these allegedly soon-to-be-available cigars from 'regulation'.
It would be just like the bureaucracy to make these legal on one end just as they make them unavailable-due-to-regulation on the other.

(Am I a glass-half-full type of guy or what?)

[/hypen-exercise]



Aninjaforallseasons said:


> Time to stock up.


You can't stock up. Cuban cigars are illegal here... remember?


----------



## TCBSmokes

*"...expect to see your favorite ISOM smokes on the usual websites."* @MoreBeer. I like your optimistic view, but taking the other side, also find it interesting this is coming at a time when the world is busily cracking down on tobacco consumption. So by the time it actually occurs, the retail landscape may be a lot different than the way we know it now. BUT, coming over to your side , just having them legally available in the US for the first time in 50+ years could spark so much interest that another cigar mini-boom could occur. T.


----------



## lvfcrook1503

tnlawyer said:


> Selfishly, I think it's horrible news for US cigar smokers. Quality will go down as they try to crank out more cigars, and prices will go way up.


*THIS^^^*



Aninjaforallseasons said:


> Time to stock up.


*Count me in Derek!* IF this happens it's not going to be good.


----------



## TCBSmokes

Emperor Zurg said:


> I wonder if the FDA is planning to be so kind as to exempt these allegedly soon-to-be-available cigars from 'regulation'.
> It would be just like the bureaucracy to make these legal on one end just as they make them unavailable-due-to-regulation on the other.
> 
> (Am I a glass-half-full type of guy or what?)
> 
> [/hypen-exercise]


EZ. and/or tax the heck out of them to benefit. I hadn't read your post before posting mine but I see we both gravitate to the _dark side_. lol. :rain:eep::behindsofa:


----------



## TonyBrooklyn

Former bodyguard Juan Reinaldo Sánchez writes that leader ran country like a cross between medieval overlord and Louis XV










Fidel Castro wrote for communist party newspaper Granma but gradually vanished from public view. Photograph: Alex Castro/AP*3,979*
_Comments433_

_Fidel Castro lived like a king with his own private yacht, a luxury Caribbean island getaway complete with dolphins and a turtle farm, and travelled with two personal blood donors, a new book claims._
_In La Vie Cachée de Fidel Castro (Fidel Castro's Hidden Life), former bodyguard Juan Reinaldo Sánchez, a member of Castro's elite inner circle, says the Cuban leader ran the country as his personal fiefdom like a cross between a medieval overlord and Louis XV._
_Sánchez, who was part of Castro's praetorian guard for 17 years, describes a charismatic and intelligent but manipulative, cold-blooded, egocentric Castro prone to foot-stamping temper tantrums. He claims the vast majority of Cubans were unaware their leader enjoyed a lifestyle beyond the dreams of many Cubans and at odds with the sacrifices he demanded of them._
_"Contrary to what he has always said, Fidel has never renounced capitalist comforts or chosen to live in austerity. Au contraire, his mode de vie is that of a capitalist without any kind of limit," he writes. "He has never considered that he is obliged by his speech to follow the austere lifestyle of a good revolutionary."_
_Sánchez claims he suffered Castro's ruthlessness first hand when he fell out of favour, was branded a traitor, "thrown in jail like a dog", tortured and left in a cockroach infested cell, after asking to retire. Released from prison, Sánchez followed the well-worn route of Cuban exiles to America in 2008. "Until the turn in the 1990s I'd never asked too many questions about the workings of the system &#8230; that's the problem with military people &#8230; as a good soldier, I did my job and my best and that was enough to make me happy," he writes._
_The book, published on Wednesday, has been written with French journalist Axel Gyldén, a senior reporter at L'Express magazine. Gyldén admits Sánchez has a large axe to grind with Castro, but insists he has checked the Cuban's story._
_"This is the first time someone from Castro's intimate circle, someone who was part of the system and a first-hand witness to these events, has spoken. It changes the image we have of Fidel Castro and not just how his lifestyle contradicts his words, but of Castro's psychology and motivations," Gyldén told the Guardian._
_This is not the first time it has been claimed that Castro enjoys great wealth. In 2006 Forbes magazine listed the Cuban leader in its top 10 richest "Kings, Queens and Dictators", citing unnamed officials who claimed Castro had amassed a fortune by skimming profits from a network of state-owned companies. The Cuban leader vehemently denied the report._
_Castro's long reign ended in 2006 when he was stricken with what was believed to be diverticulitis, an intestinal ailment, and handed power to his younger brother Raúl, who had served as defence minister. He officially ceded power to Raúl in 2008._
_Fidel continued penning columns for the Communist party newspaper Granma but gradually vanished from public view, fuelling rumours he had died, only to surface for occasional, fleeting appearances. Raul has made cautious economic reforms but kept tight control._
_Visitors such as Ignacio Ramonet, the French journalist who has interviewed Castro at length, have depicted an austere lifestyle of reading, exercise, simple meals and modest home comforts._
_But Sánchez, now 65 and living in America, claims Castro enjoyed a private island - Cayo Piedra, south of the Bay of Pigs, scene of the failed CIA-sponsored invasion of 1961 - describing it as a "garden of Eden" where he entertained selected guests including the writer Gabríel Garcia Márquez, and enjoyed spear-fishing._
_The former bodyguard says Castro sailed to the island on his luxury yacht, the Aquarama II, fitted out with rare Angolan wood and powered by four motors sent by the Soviet president Leonid Brezhnev._
_"Castro would sit in his large black leather director's armchair ... a glass of Chivas Regal on the rocks (his favourite drink) in his hand," writes Sánchez._
_Other presidential properties, he writes, included an "immense" estate in Havana complete with rooftop bowling alley, basketball court and fully equipped medical centre, and a luxury bungalow with private marina on the coast._
_"Fidel Castro also let it be known and suggested that the revolution gave him no rest, no time for pleasure and that he ignored, indeed despised, the bourgeois concept of holidays. He lies," he adds._
_Ann Louise Bardach, a veteran Cuba chronicler who has interviewed Castro, said that as a lifelong hypochondriac he enjoyed the best food and medical care but did not have a lavish lifestyle. He was born into money and went into politics for power, she said. "He didn't do it for the money. He's not swinging from the chandeliers."_
_His current home, just outside Havana, had four bedrooms and would in the west be considered middle or upper-middle class, she said. Focusing on any material advantage he may enjoy missed a larger point, said Bardach, author of Without Fidel: a death foretold in Miami, Havana and Washington. "He owns the island of Cuba. It's his personal fiefdom."_
_Sánchez says Castro's dolce vita was a "crazy privilege" while Cubans suffered serious hardship in the 1990s as the economy "collapsed like a house of cards" after the disintegration of the Soviet Union and eastern bloc with which Havana had done almost 80% of its foreign business._
_His compatriots, he says, were also unaware of their leader's complicated love life, his womanising and subsequent tribe of at least nine children, not least because Cuban media was forbidden to mention them._
_The Cuban leader kept a gun at his feet when travelling in his Mercedes and never went anywhere without at least 10 bodyguards, including two "blood donors". At home he would get up late, and start work around midday "after a frugal breakast"._
_"His favourite film that he saw I don't know how many times was the interminable and soporific Soviet version of Tolstoy's War and Peace &#8230; which lasted at least five hours."_
_He recalls how Castro bugged everyone, including Hugo Chávez, and insisted his bodyguard jot down everything he did in a notebook "for history"._
_Sánchez says for nearly two decades he saw more of Castro than his own family. "He was a god. I drank all his words, believed all he said, followed him everywhere and would have died for him," he writes._
_He claims he finally realised that Castro considered Cuba "belonged" to him._
_"He was its master in the manner of a 19th century landowner. For him wealth was above all an instrument of power, of political survival, of personal protection."_
_Recalling how Castro kept Angolan diamonds in a Cohiba cigar box, he writes: "Sometimes, Fidel had a little of the mentality of a pirate of the Caribbean."_
_La Vie Cachée de Fidel Castro is published by Michel Lafon on Wednesday._


----------



## Sigaar

I was just saying to my wife yesterday how ridiculous it is having the .gov tell us what we can buy/not buy. Let the market decide, and if some CC brands go to shit, so be it, the market will correct that issue soon enough. So yeah, this is one Obama decision I can agree with.

ETA: I've smoked a total of one Cuban cigar in my life...after I graduated college in 1992. I haven't bothered to chase them down and worry about fakes, etc. Anyway, I'm new to the hobby and have found plenty of NC's that I like. That said, if CC's become readily available, I'd try a few:smoke2:


----------



## Emperor Zurg

TCBSmokes said:


> EZ. and/or tax the heck out of them to benefit. I hadn't read your post before posting mine but I see we both gravitate to the _dark side_. lol. :rain:eep::behindsofa:


LOL indeed!

Here's how I read this article in light of recent tobacco news...



The Gubmint said:


> Hey all you working serfs, great news!! We're going to let you buy CUBAN CIGARS now!!! Isn't that great??
> 
> JUST KIDDING!!! *The Cuban cigars don't meet the new FDA criteria for the 'Premium Cigar' exemption!!!!*
> LOL!! LOL!! LOL!! BWAHAHA!!! YHBT! LMAO!!!


----------



## SmokinSpider

Cuba supplies cigars to most of the world. In many places NC cigar options are limited for one reason or another. I have a hard time believing that making cigars legal in the US will cause such a large demand that cigar quality will suffer that much.


----------



## Lee M

TCBSmokes said:


> *"...expect to see your favorite ISOM smokes on the usual websites."* @MoreBeer. I like your optimistic view, but taking the other side, also find it interesting this is coming at a time when the world is busily cracking down on tobacco consumption. So by the time it actually occurs, the retail landscape may be a lot different than the way we know it now. BUT, coming over to your side , just having them legally available in the US for the first time in 50+ years could spark so much interest that another cigar mini-boom could occur. T.


I agree, I think there will be many new smokers give them a try just on intrigue alone. They do not know what cc tasted like in the 90's (nor do I, and I would think most B/SOTL wouldn't either). That being said this could be a start to another boom.


----------



## Billb1960

The new agreement allows for up to $100 of tobacco per person to be brought into the country by travelers. There are no provisions for resale. $100 worth of CC is about 5-7 per person. Don't look for you local B&M to start stocking the shelves any time soon.


----------



## AlanS

Has anyone noticed the results of the Cigar of the year? One Cuban in the top ten. Oh and look at the results over the last several years. The world seems to have passed that island in quality and production.


----------



## demuths1770

lvfcrook1503 said:


> *THIS^^^*
> 
> *Count me in Derek!* IF this happens it's not going to be good.


i dont really see this happening at all. first off if and when this dose happen it wont be over night so they will have time to get a small stcok pile and second im sure adding the american consumer will not sink production when they already produce cigars for the etnire world right now and well alot of humidors hold them already


----------



## cakeanddottle

AlanS said:


> Has anyone noticed the results of the Cigar of the year? One Cuban in the top ten. Oh and look at the results over the last several years. The world seems to have passed that island in quality and production.


lol


----------



## Ethernomad

cakeanddottle said:


> lol


Lol


----------



## Billb1960

AlanS said:


> Has anyone noticed the results of the Cigar of the year? One Cuban in the top ten. Oh and look at the results over the last several years. The world seems to have passed that island in quality and production.


For some Cuban cigars are the be all/end all of cigars. It doesn't matter how good a NC is it's simply a poor imitation compared to the real thing. C'est la vie.


----------



## Wicked_Rhube

It has been explained to me that for 50 years it has been unlawful for US citizens to possess Cuban cigars even while abroad. Does this change that? So does this mean a < $100 box of Montes that one may or may not already have is suddenly not technically unlawful to possess here in the US? That's what I'm wondering. ...


----------



## Stinky

I've been following the Cuba embargo subject for many years. Here's my take on the prospect of when the embargo ends: 

1. there will be more fake Cuban Cigars than ever before! 
2. the price of Cuban Cigars will sky rocket! 

Simple supply & demand.


----------



## demuths1770

Wicked_Rhube said:


> It has been explained to me that for 50 years it has been unlawful for US citizens to possess Cuban cigars even while abroad. Does this change that? So does this mean a < $100 box of Montes that one may or may not already have is suddenly not technically unlawful to possess here in the US? That's what I'm wondering. ...


this is what i have been trying to figure out.... the embargo is still in place for now which is what makes it illegal but now its going to be legal to bring 400$ of cuban goods back... not that the possession of cuban goods law is really enfoced but still a great question


----------



## Billb1960

Stinky said:


> I've been following the Cuba embargo subject for many years. Here's my take on the prospect of when the embargo ends:
> 
> 1. there will be more fake Cuban Cigars than ever before!
> 2. the price of Cuban Cigars will sky rocket!
> 
> Simple supply & demand.


Short term you're probably correct. Long term the market will dictate prices just like it always does. While it's foolish not to take a half century of pent up demand into account, if/when Americans can buy CC on the open market just like NC then the same market forces will apply to them. Of course there will always be that small group of "elite cigar smokers" who will claim that nothing is as good as a CC but they will be the minority and won't be enough to support the whole market segment. It's all speculation at this point anyway since we're nowhere near that point.


----------



## jp1979

*quoted wrong post*

The supply is already low for the demand, remember everyone else can get them now except us, so I don't see a huge shift in pricing for any other reason than the fact that any joe-schmoe would be able to order them. After a couple years the novelty will wear off just like it happens to everything else. I agree that there will be more fakes than ever before. I also believe what I have heard mentions that NC prices will drop for a while as well, 2 sided coin that I am not sure how I feel about. Obviously the $100 limit for bringing back cigars is not going to effect anything, the only drastic changes will be IF the embargo is completely lifted.

The only good part about the embargo being lifted will be that you wont have to worry about Customs Letters and missing packages anymore.


----------



## TonyBrooklyn

Wicked_Rhube said:


> It has been explained to me that for 50 years it has been unlawful for US citizens to possess Cuban cigars even while abroad. Does this change that? So does this mean a < $100 box of Montes that one may or may not already have is suddenly not technically unlawful to possess here in the US? That's what I'm wondering. ...


I have similar thoughts as well. For instance if i bring back 100 Custom Rolls and declare them as Peso cigars that would be my $100. I mean there is no price sheet and receipts are forged all the time. My friends from Canada do it so it should work here. That being said the Custom rolls in Cuba my Canadian friends have informed me are drying up. It would appear Habanos is tired of the competition. Or maybe they are gearing up for all the new tourists!


----------



## sandt38

Billb1960 said:


> The new agreement allows for up to $100 of tobacco per person to be brought into the country by travelers. There are no provisions for resale. $100 worth of CC is about 5-7 per person. Don't look for you local B&M to start stocking the shelves any time soon.


Indeed. Because of this we will not be able to purchase or sell Cubans within the US borders.


----------



## Schlitzinacan

Personally I hope nothing happens for awhile. People who really want CCs can get them somehow, and those who don't probably won't want them even when they are legal.


----------



## dinoa2

ah, but you forget the FDA will require years of testing for these "premium cigars" before they allow them released to the public they are protecting lol


----------



## Freeman

I don't know if this is a good or bad thing. On the one hand I love the idea that perhaps greater numbers of people may be able to try Cuban's but at the same time, I fear what will happen to the product itself. What will happen when this pent-up US demand becomes unleashed and production goes through the roof. If it becomes a reality, and I'm not saying it will, but it could, I fear the very thing that makes a CC great may be lost forever. 

Just my rambling

Ken


----------



## VictorLouis

I'm hoping that the pricing of NC brands will get even more competitive with greater CC access.


----------



## demuths1770

I don't think the quality of Cubans will drop at all. Lifting the embargo will not happen over night so they will have a chance to have a supply built up


----------



## Billb1960

This is another media driven tempest in a teapot. Hype over substance. C'mon $100 worth of sticks only if you can somehow get to Cuba which BTW is still virtually impossible unless you have a long lost uncle in Cuba. That's supposed to make a dent in 50 years of "pent up demand"? Seriously?


----------



## 455 Punch

VictorLouis said:


> I'm hoping that the pricing of NC brands will get even more competitive with greater CC access.


This is exactly the element of "supply vs demand = pricing" that we seem to forget when we talk about CC vs NC. To many, there is no comparison between NC vs CC. Some of it is true, some of it is mystique, and some is heresay, but the reality is that CC have demand in the US as a black-market (using that term loosely) commodity. For all those reasons CC demand vs supply pricing is what it is. Now the NC pricing is what it is from a supply/demand standpoint. So think not in terms of CC pricing going up due to demand in its own CC market, but instead think of NC prices going down in a new swimming pool of combined a NC & CC market. If NCs become less desirable, NC prices will fall. If NC prices fall, CC prices will end up somewhere else relative to the new NC prices. All I'm saying is that lets not forget the NC side of the supply-demand equation, as equilibrium (prices) will work out to where RELATIVE to one another, the price spread between CC and NC will likely not diverge. But who knows. If I knew, I could apply this to oil, gold, stocks, etc and be rich. So more expensive or lower quality CCs? I dunno. Lower priced NCs? Maybe so.


----------



## Freeman

Good point Victor, I hadn't considered the effect on the NC market. I would be very appreciative of less expensive Padrons.  

Ken


----------



## bpegler

I don't think there is any chance that the new Republican majority in both houses will lift the embargo. The President can normalize diplomatic relations, but not lift the embargo.

Travel will perhaps be eased, and that will probably allow some of us a chance to visit.

Really, enforcement of laws regarding importation of Cuban cigars has been lax for a number of years. Confescation still happens, but OFAC isn't bringing criminal charges anymore. 

When the embargo is lifted, it will be a real problem for the DR and Honduras, I think. But that's a long way off...


----------



## MarkC

The one thought that occurs to me is the embarrassment when and if the embargo is lifted and Cuba discovers the modern American car. I can picture millions of Cubans recoiling in horror and saying "never mind; we'll keep the old ones!"


----------



## Skeat5353

I have had this discussion with my local tobacconist at his B&M. He was educated at Cornell in the 70s and knows his field better than anyone I've ever spoken too. He's smoked every type of Havana since he started smoking back in the 80s. He's smoked almost every premium blend from the Dominican Republic; and in the last 15 years has smoked every brand from Nicaragua and Honduras. Papa Padron has been to his shop on numerous occasions over the years and whenever this man travels to Nicaragua, he is received with open arms by half a dozen of the best master blenders and tabacalera owners in the region. He's had a personal friend living in London for 25 years and receives whatever Havanas he wants whenever he wants them. We discussed this recent legislation together while smoking Oliva Serie V Melanios in the lounge at the back of the shop. Here are the most pressing issues to date. Habanos S.A. is not what it used to be. The quality of the tobacco has declined due to poor soil from over-cultivation and recent infestations that Habanos S.A. refuses to disclose publicly. Proper curing time requires more than five years. However, due to the recent production increases in the last decade, HSA has allowed curing times to be curtailed to three years. So if you do buy a box of CCs, make sure to let them age for two years. If CCs were to become legal in the US, considering current supply and demand estimates for world production now, we will all be smoking uncured tobacco rolled in a beautiful Havana wrapper. My friend and owner of the local B&M has told me repeatedly that Nicaraguans and Dominicans have 'caught up'--much in the same way that the vintners in Napa and Sonoma caught up with the winemakers of Burgundy over the last 50 years. It's to the point now that French winemakers--who once exported French grapes to Napa--are now importing Napa grapes back to France. Bottom line: the legendary quality of Cuban tobacco is not what it used to be anymore, and hasn't been since the 80s. This decline in quality, compared to the astonishing increase of quality in the Dominican Republic and Nicaragua/Honduras, has simply leveled the playing field. It really only comes down now to a question of taste. For people who enjoy DRs and NICs, a market flood of Havanas will create a drastic drop in prices initially. Habanos SA is not currently prepared to produce a supply for the US market. Initially, the demand will be extraordinarily high in popular and fashionable circles due to the novelty of the product. Prices will be higher than they are in Canada right now. Your brand new box of Boli RCs will most likely cost $600-$700 before taxes! If you live in a state with exorbitant tobacco taxation, like CA or NY, well you will be paying 15-25 percent in taxes on a single box. Now factor in basic supply and demand logistics, i.e. a massive demand with a tiny supply, and that price will be driven upwards even more. Now that same box will be 20-30 percent more. Consider also the system by which Habanos SA distributes their product through strictly licensed distributors. Most likely other countries around the world will not enjoy seeing prices rise on their favorite tobacco product because of the new flood of US demand. Current licensees abroad will demand that US licensees pay a massive entry fee in order to keep their prices stable. The next obstacle (I write this with the understanding that Congress has lifted the embargo) will be the FDA. The FDA is already threatening current production in the Dominican and Nicaragua by trying to place expensive inspection fees on tobacco imports to discourage the American public from smoking. Let's face it, fellas, our little vice is costing non-smokers a ton of income in health insurance costs. Big Brother doesn't want any more smokers in the US. Non-smokers clearly outnumber smokers by 4-to-1 in this country, so get ready to pay more money for a product that one day you will not be able to enjoy in public places. And finally, your local B&M will never carry CCs. You will still have to buy them from La Casa Del Habano retailers. I don't imagine there being one on every block. There will probably be locations in the most populous cities where cigar smoking is the greatest per capita: Miami, New York, Los Angeles, Phoenix, Philadelphia, Washington D.C., Dallas, New Orleans, Chicago and, of course, Las Vegas. Those cities will also place a tax on the cigars as well. So you will be paying Federal, State, and local taxes on each box or stick. At the end of all this, CCs will be a luxury item for the elite and wealthy of this country, probably costing somewhere around $900 a box for the most common brands. Nics and Doms will become the working class cigars. But that's okay, because Nics and Doms have caught up!!!


----------



## El wedo del milagro

It started off interesting, but is impossible to read as one huge run-on-paragraph.

Oh well...


----------



## chadderkdawg

Glad this got bumped and I got to read that.... because I'm not going to be getting those 10 minutes of my life back.... I've never seen so much speculation in one post before, the embargo isn't even lifted yet and he is talking about the FDA wiping tobacco out of the country. Wow


----------



## tnlawyer

chadderkdawg said:


> Glad this got bumped and I got to read that.... because I'm not going to be getting those 10 minutes of my life back.... I've never seen so much bullshit in one post before, the embargo isn't even lifted yet and he is talking about the FDA wiping tobacco out of the country. Wow


There. Fixed it for you.


----------



## chadderkdawg

tnlawyer said:


> There. Fixed it for you.


Lol


----------



## tnlawyer

chadderkdawg said:


> Lol


Hey, I'm an attorney so I know bullshit when I see it. :lol:


----------



## chadderkdawg

tnlawyer said:


> Hey, I'm an attorney so I know bullshit when I see it. :lol:


I almost replied something to that effect, but hey now that you said it! :rofl:


----------



## Billb1960

chadderkdawg said:


> Glad this got bumped and I got to read that.... because I'm not going to be getting those 10 minutes of my life back.... I've never seen so much speculation in one post before, the embargo isn't even lifted yet and he is talking about the FDA wiping tobacco out of the country. Wow


While I agree there is a lot of speculation in that post the FDA threat is unfortunately very real.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2014/06/22/cigar-smokers-fda-tobacco-regulations-column/11242667/


----------



## Billb1960

tnlawyer said:


> There. Fixed it for you.


And then there's this-

Cuban Cigars Are Overrated - Business Insider


----------



## Skeat5353

Sorry for the rambling, got a little carried away.

I was writing that in the future perfect, assuming Congress has lifted the embargo and the US market has been opened up for Cuban imports. Here's an interesting article on that very subject:

Cuba Deal May Not Deliver Cheap Cigars - Bloomberg Politics

US cigar smokers consume 300 million premium cigars a year. Now how will Habanos SA meet that demand if the Embargo has been lifted? And what will happen to the current demand for Dominican and Nicaraguan cigars, both of which currently supply those 300 million premium cigars? And how will the FDA regulate the trade, considering it is currently trying to place further restrictions on premium cigar imports now? And what will happen to the current international market for Cuban Cigars should the US lift the Embargo? Of course this is all speculation. But it certainly makes for interesting speculation.

I guess my speculation is off, but my point was that the cigar market both here in the US and throughout the world will suffer cataclysmic upheaval. Habanos SA right now could not meet the US demand, probably not even 1 percent of present US demand with it's current production levels. Let's face it, if the Embargo were lifted tomorrow, 90 percent of US cigar smokers would want to buy CCs. That means Habanos SA would have to supply 270 million cigars annually to US cigar smokers to meet that demand. Not at all realistic.

My other point was quite simple, logical, and all too obvious. If American cigar smokers think they will one day be able saunter on down the street to the local corner B&M and pick up a nice pretty little dress box of Boli RCs for $270, they will be in for big surprise. It'll be more like: "Hey, I was in New York and went to the new La Casa Del Habano Fifth Avenue and splurged on a box of Boli RCs. Cost me $2500. That's right, $100 a cigar!"


----------



## Merovius

Billb1960 said:


> And then there's this-
> 
> Cuban Cigars Are Overrated - Business Insider


I like Herklots, hes done some great blends for Nat Sherman and does know his tobacco but while I do agree with his comments about QC, I dont agree with some of the other comments.

A bad Habanos is a disappointment but the good ones are great, really good in fact. I just recall the first time I shared a 4YR RASS with my good friend, his reaction on light was "Holy fnck this is good!" Ive shared many cigars with him and have yet to see a similar reaction.


----------



## MDSPHOTO

"The FDA proposes banning cigar sales to minors, free samples, almost all tobacco vending machines and limiting cigar ads." 
-USA TODAY

But if they ban cigar ads how will Cigar Aficionado select their Top 25 cigars? :rofl:


----------



## Billb1960

Merovius said:


> I like Herklots, hes done some great blends for Nat Sherman and does know his tobacco but while I do agree with his comments about QC, I dont agree with some of the other comments.
> 
> A bad Habanos is a disappointment but the good ones are great, really good in fact. I just recall the first time I shared a 4YR RASS with my good friend, his reaction on light was "Holy fnck this is good!" Ive shared many cigars with him and have yet to see a similar reaction.


I'm not qualified to comment on the qualities of CC since I can count the number I've smoked on 1 hand. In fact my wife has actually smoked more CC than I have but that's another story. I intend to rectify that situation in the very near future, however there is more to that article than just QC and relatively arbitrary lists. It is virtually impossible to separate the allure associated with 'forbidden fruit' from the actual quality of any given product which I think is the most salient point in that article.


----------



## Skeat5353

Here's an older, but interesting article on supply estimates.

Cuba: premium cigar production tumbles to 118 million units / Bloomberg - Cuba News / Noticias - CubaNet News

Looks like Habanos SA production couldn't even supply 30 percent of current US demand for premium cigars. Let's see if tnlawyer can count something other than the hours on a clock! LOL!

Here's a State Department Report from about 15 years ago:

CIGAR PRODUCTION UPDATE- Habanos S.A., the Republic of Cuba government-operated exclusive exporter of cigar products, reported that, thus far in 1997, 98 million cigars have been exported for which the Republic of Cuba has earned US$150 million. Mr. Manual Garcia, Vice President of Habanos S.A., said that an additional 4 million cigars will be produced by 31 December 1997, and the total revenues will increase to US$179 million. He said that 87% of the expected 102 million produced cigars will be made by hand and 13% will be made by machine. Approximately 10,000 tons of tobacco leaf have been exported to countries in Europe thus far in 1997, an increase of 10% from 1996. In 1996, 71 million cigars were exported. The Republic of Cuba earned US$107 million in 1996 from cigar exports, tobacco exports, and cigarette exports. Cigar exports have become the island's sixth most significant U.S. Dollar earner after tourism, family remittances, sugar, nickel, and fish. Mr. Garcia said that annual demand in traditional markets such as Spain and other European Union-member countries was 120 million to 130 million cigars. Spain continued to be the largest importer of Republic of Cuba-produced cigars, followed by France. Mr. Garcia said that Habanos sells approximately US$10 million in cigars within the Republic of Cuba, mainly to tourists. He said that an estimated 5 million to 7 million, of the estimated 500 million cigars consumed in the United States, were Republic of Cuba-produced cigars. Mr. Garcia said that consumers in the United States would purchase 50 million Republic of Cuba-produced cigars if there were no import restrictions.

Another interesting piece on the subject:

Cuban cigar mystique stokes demand; but will it endure? - Sun Sentinel

Very interesting article as well. A man also wary of potential FDA interference as well as trademark battles between replica brands current in US market:

What Obama's Cuba Deal Means for the Future of Cuban Cigars - Reason.com

There you have it, tnlawyer and chadderkdawg, all the most important facts right before your very eyes. So where's the bullshit? Why doesn't our lawyer friend explain to everyone here in this thread how trademark law will play into all of this once the embargo is lifted? Warning: Are you ready for some serious bullshit? If you want bullshit, just ask a lawyer about trademark law! LOL!


----------



## Billb1960

Producing high quality products is way, way out of any government's wheelhouse. Period.


----------



## cakeanddottle

Billb1960 said:


> It is virtually impossible to separate the allure associated with 'forbidden fruit' from the actual quality of any given product which I think is the most salient point in that article.


That's BS. I was a confirmed Nicaraguan puro lover. I had no inclination that I would find CCs anything but a letdown once I tried them. What actually happened once I smoked several marcas was that it had all but ruined NCs for me. IMO the very best NCs would be average CCs, at best. There are very few NCs I can smoke now without feeling disappointed, although I am still a big fan of Casa Fernandez. You can't grow Cuban tobacco anywhere but Cuba, and it's better. It is flat out better. I think it's ridiculous to argue that Nicaraguan or Dominican tobacco has caught up to or surpassed Cuban tobacco. That is an argument made by people looking to profit on the US cigar market, or who have talked themselves out of trying Cuban cigars.

I love cigars. I don't care what country the tobacco was grown in. I want to smoke a cigar that I think kicks ass and is worth every penny I spent on it. I want that cigar to cap off a good day, or to be a balm for a bad one. In the very short time I've been smoking CCs I've had far more smokes where the heavens opened up and the angelic host sang to me than I ever did smoking NCs. That is my experience.


----------



## Billb1960

cakeanddottle said:


> *That's BS.*


It's my opinion. However when only 3 of the top 25 cigars are Cuban it's apparently one that may be shared by others more knowledgeable than myself.


----------



## cakeanddottle

doubly bs and ad money motivated


----------



## Billb1960

cakeanddottle said:


> doubly bs and ad money motivated


So the bottom line is *for you* CC are the best cigars in the world. Fair enough.


----------



## Merovius

Billb1960 said:


> I'm not qualified to comment on the qualities of CC since I can count the number I've smoked on 1 hand. In fact my wife has actually smoked more CC than I have but that's another story. I intend to rectify that situation in the very near future, however there is more to that article than just QC and relatively arbitrary lists. It is virtually impossible to separate the allure associated with 'forbidden fruit' from the actual quality of any given product which I think is the most salient point in that article.


I think that point is very subjective and for me that would be true if there werent any HTFs and/or "unicorns" in the NC market. CCs arent hard to come by, the allure is there at first but once you get rolling it dissipates pretty quickly. Whats left is a unique experience not otherwise found in NCs.


----------



## Billb1960

Merovius said:


> I think that point is very subjective and for me that would be true if there werent any HTFs and/or "unicorns" in the NC market. CCs arent hard to come by, the allure is there at first but once you get rolling it dissipates pretty quickly. Whats left is a unique experience not otherwise found in NCs.


Thanks Tyler. I fully intend to discover that for myself especially now that I have the access to the Habanos section of this forum so that I can make some smart purchases. I'm looking forward to learning from the collective wisdom of BOTLs like you and Mike.


----------



## bpegler

Everyone has an opinion. But not everyone has an informed or experienced opinion.

Smoke several thousand Havanas and get back to me...


----------



## Billb1960

bpegler said:


> Everyone has an opinion. But not everyone has an informed or experienced opinion.
> 
> Smoke several thousand Havanas and get back to me...


I believe I made it clear that I had very little experience with CC several posts back. Regardless, the appeal of 'forbidden fruit' is undeniable. It extends far beyond the realm of Cuban cigars or even cigars in general. Hell, I've closed more than a few deals by telling the prospect, "Well, we have this particular product/service but it's probably a little out of your budget...".
People want most what they can't have.

I have every intention of following your 2nd suggestion.


----------



## TCBSmokes

For what it's worth, here's an article on Bloomberg, and a link to several more below.. Happy reading. :ranger: T.

U.S.-Cuba Thaw May Lead to Cigar Price Gain, Altadis Says - Bloomberg

cigars - Bloomberg Search


----------



## Skeat5353

I like this quote from the article:

_* "'If a new market that accounts for two-thirds of the global market opens up, it can generate tensions,' Juan Arrizabalaga, chief executive officer of Altadis, told journalists today in the division's hometown of Madrid."*_

I think what he really means to say is that Cuban cigar smokers overseas won't really be happy seeing prices on their cigars rise 500 percent. When he says "tensions," he really means "open hostility" and "fierce opposition." LOL!


----------



## Skeat5353

Hey Chadderkdawg, maybe take 5 minutes to read this.

Press Release: Cigar Rights of America Issues Response to FDA's Deeming Regulations | halfwheel


----------



## Skeat5353

Here are current estimates of world production and demand according to Habanos SA:

"Currently the world market is in the order of 400 million units, with the US as the largest consumer with 260-270 million, representing nearly 70 percent of the total, according to executives of Habanos SA ."

So Habanos SA currently supplies roughly 130-140 million cigars to 150 countries around the world, excluding the United States. U.S. demand is double Habanos SA production totals, approximately. Cigar smokers here consume 260-270 million cigars per annum, yet Habanos SA only produces 130-140 million a year? Hmmmmm? Let's just underestimate for argument's sake and say that 50 percent of US consumers will want CCs (we all know that is a joke estimate, right?). That's one unit per consumer, and the rest of the world gets nothing. Like I said: *Enjoy your visit to La Casa Del Habano Las Vegas and enjoy smoking that $2500 box of Boli RCs!!! LOL! *

Perhaps our brilliant attorney and his impeccable bullshit-detector might try to enlighten us all and take a moment to refute the basic laws of supply and demand. Or maybe he is busy right now--driving behind an ambulance!

:car:


----------



## Ilroy

I find a pretty significant problem with your assumtions as to what the change will be in the US market. Currently, those who want to try Cubans do so when they travel out of the US. Those who really like them and feel adventurous are already ordering them online from overseas sources in hopes that most of their orders will make it past customs. The US market is already using much of the current supply, so you need to take that part of the equation into consideration while making your estimates.


----------



## Skeat5353

Ilroy said:


> I find a pretty significant problem with your assumtions as to what the change will be in the US market. Currently, those who want to try Cubans do so when they travel out of the US. Those who really like them and feel adventurous are already ordering them online from overseas sources in hopes that most of their orders will make it past customs. The US market is already using much of the current supply, so you need to take that part of the equation into consideration while making your estimates.


Ilroy, I hope you are right. I'm playing the devil's advocate. Because we cannot empirically determine the quantity of CCs consumed by Americans, we must estimate. What we do know is the amount Habanos SA produces annually, *130-140 million cigars*. We also know how many *non-cuban* cigars Americans consume each year,* 260-270 million cigars*. Those numbers are not estimates or assumptions; they are the current production and consumption levels in the world, according to Habanos SA and the U.S. State Department. I think your estimate of the amount of CCs consumed by US smokers is a bit exaggerated. Yes, we travel abroad. Yes, we order from grey market sources overseas. But given the fear of purchasing fakes and the dicey proposition of the grey market to the uninitiated, I think US smokers consume less than 10 percent of total CCs produced per annum. If US consumers consumed more than that, I believe prices overseas would be higher and prices on Nicaraguan and Dominican cigars would be lower. I mean honestly, Ilroy, how much do you think it costs to produce the most expensive box of My Father cigars on the market? Considering the value of land in Nicaragua, the cheap labor, etc...? It probably costs 50-80 cents per stick. So why is that box $250 at your local B&M or online?


----------



## jasonrc25

When I was in the Air Force i was stationed in Germany for several years and the only cigars availble locally were Cubans. At the end of the day I did not find them to be any better than the the non Cubans, just much more expensive. If I wanted to pay $40 or more for a cigar, I could have gotten some of the more top of the line cigars, but I can't see paying that much for a cigar.


----------



## boffybaby89

A recent article has been floating around with Habano SA stating they are are calculating that upon the lift of the embargo, Cubans would grab 25 to 30% of the us cigar market. They go on to say in a few years they could eventually gain up to 70% of the market. Look Cuban cigars are excellent and will definitely increase interest in the cigar community. however, i feel as though they are going to run into trouble meeting the demand for the us market. Also a lot of smokers already have their set brands and companies like Drew Estate, Fuente, Padron, Davidoff, and Montecristo Dominican have cult followings. I feel as though this is a little exorbitant. Check out the article on halfwheel!


----------



## HIM

boffybaby89 said:


> A recent article has been floating around with Habano SA stating they are are calculating that upon the lift of the embargo, Cubans would grab 25 to 30% of the us cigar market. They go on to say in a few years they could eventually gain up to 70% of the market. Look Cuban cigars are excellent and will definitely increase interest in the cigar community. however, i feel as though they are going to run into trouble meeting the demand for the us market. Also a lot of smokers already have their set brands and companies like Drew Estate, Fuente, Padron, Davidoff, and Montecristo Dominican have cult followings. I feel as though this is a little exorbitant. Check out the article on halfwheel!


********* Forum


----------



## DonMerlin

I think the success of the Cuban "invasion" is still going to come down to price\availability. I can buy expensive cigars now but I don't very often because, well, they are expensive. Would I buy more Cohibas and Opus Xs if they were available and cheaper? Well of course I would.
When I'm told "If you want Cuban cigars you have to pay the $$$$ price" guess what I have been under the ban for 53 years too. I can go another 53 without one if I have to.

Not to worry Cuba the "Aficionados" with the deep pockets will buy every stick you send, and then try and make a killing on the open market. Sad, but that is what it is.


----------



## elco69

DonMerlin said:


> I think the success of the Cuban "invasion" is still going to come down to price\availability. I can buy expensive cigars now but I don't very often because, well, they are expensive. Would I buy more Cohibas and Opus Xs if they were available and cheaper? Well of course I would.
> When I'm told "If you want Cuban cigars you have to pay the $$$$ price" guess what I have been under the ban for 53 years too. I can go another 53 without one if I have to.
> 
> Not to worry Cuba the "Aficionados" with the deep pockets will buy every stick you send, and then try and make a killing on the open market. Sad, but that is what it is.


CC's are not that expensive, just saying


----------



## Bird-Dog

elco69 said:


> CC's are not that expensive, just saying


You're right. But, don't expect them to remain so if/when the embargo is lifted. Extrapolations of taxes and increased demand tend to indicate they will be much more expensive on US soil when they arrive legally. We've already seen recent price increases due to lively demand (purportedly brought on by talk of embargo lifting). So there is that... in spades. Then drop heavy taxation on top and, viola, you've got localized CC pricing that can easily eclipse super-premium NC's. Look at the UK for example, just to mention one of many countries where legal CC prices are outrageously high due to taxation.

Then again, it could depend on sourcing. Current methods of acquisition will likely still exist. But, running the gauntlet might actually be harder. Our gov't may put more resources into collecting taxes than they have into enforcing the embargo. I mean, when there's revenues on the line, politicians and bureaucrats get a whole lot more interested than when it's strictly an expenditure! Just ask any Canadian about GST & PST collections on shipments of just about anything shipped in from outside their borders.


----------



## elco69

curmudgeonista said:


> You're right. But, don't expect them to remain so if/when the embargo is lifted. Extrapolations of taxes and increased demand tend to indicate they will be much more expensive on US soil when they arrive legally. We've already seen recent price increases due to lively demand (purportedly brought on by talk of embargo lifting). So there is that... in spades. Then drop heavy taxation on top and, viola, you've got localized CC pricing that can easily eclipse super-premium NC's. Look at the UK for example, just to mention one of many countries where legal CC prices are outrageously high due to taxation.
> 
> Then again, it could depend on sourcing. Current methods of acquisition will likely still exist. But, running the gauntlet might actually be harder. Our gov't may put more resources into collecting taxes than they have into enforcing the embargo. I mean, when there's revenues on the line, politicians and bureaucrats get a whole lot more interested than when it's strictly an expenditure! Just ask any Canadian about GST & PST collections on shipments of just about anything shipped in from outside their borders.


That is why I am stocking up while the getting is good.....35ish boxes and counting, 4 more in the air


----------



## Oldmso54

Dont forget about the trademark issues over cigar brand names. General Cigar "owns" through trademark registration, the names of cigars like Cohiba, Bolivar, Cifuentes, El Rey del Mundo, Partagas and Punch. Consolidated Cigars owns some other traditionally cuban names and some other companies have trademark rights on a brand name here and there.

There are a number of articles out there for your reading pleasure about the lawsuit between Cohiba and General Cigar where the U. S. Supreme Court denied the petition of the Cuban tobacco marketing agency, Cubatabaco, representing the Cohiba name.

That's just a tip of the iceberg synopsis but the trademark naming rights are going to be a hurdle for both sides to overcome. Imagine consumers having to decipher between a Cuban Cohiba and a non cuban General Cigar Cohiba.? And you thought trying to figure out fakes was bad...


----------



## elco69

Oldmso54 said:


> Dont forget about the trademark issues over cigar brand names. General Cigar "owns" through trademark registration, the names of cigars like Cohiba, Bolivar, Cifuentes, El Rey del Mundo, Partagas and Punch. Consolidated Cigars owns some other traditionally cuban names and some other companies have trademark rights on a brand name here and there.
> 
> There are a number of articles out there for your reading pleasure about the lawsuit between Cohiba and General Cigar where the U. S. Supreme Court denied the petition of the Cuban tobacco marketing agency, Cubatabaco, representing the Cohiba name.
> 
> That's just a tip of the iceberg synopsis but the trademark naming rights are going to be a hurdle for both sides to overcome. Imagine consumers having to decipher between a Cuban Cohiba and a non cuban General Cigar Cohiba.? And you thought trying to figure out fakes was bad...


Yeah , it is a real cluster F..K
Even if I stop buying, I have enough CC for the next 5-10 years. With that being said, will I stop buying now, hell no....lol

Right now prices are still decent, even though they are slightly creeping up and I have good vendors that I can trust. Bet Obama didn't know this was gonna go down.


----------



## Bird-Dog

elco69 said:


> That is why I am stocking up while the getting is good.....35ish boxes and counting, 4 more in the air


You and me both, brother! And that's consistent with the theory that recent price jumps are due to increased demand brought on by embargo-lifting appearing to be just over the horizon.

I've stocked in about 40 boxes so far this year. But my budget is winding down now, and the majority have been "everyday" kinda' smokes - not so much of the high-zoot stuff I drool over on the _"What's you're latest CC purchase?"_ thread. Might be able to talk my way into a couple more boxes for Christmas. But otherwise, that's about it for a while... and they're getting smoked up at an alarming rate already.


----------



## elco69

curmudgeonista said:


> You and me both, brother! And that's consistent with the theory that recent price jumps are due to increased demand brought on by embargo-lifting appearing to be just over the horizon.
> 
> I've stocked in about 40 boxes so far this year. But my budget is winding down now, and the majority have been "everyday" kinda' smokes - not so much of the high-zoot stuff I drool over on the _"What's you're latest CC purchase?"_ thread. Might be able to talk my way into a couple more boxes for Christmas. But otherwise, that's about it for a while... and they're getting smoked up at an alarming rate already.


Yeah my spending is slowly winding down because it also coming up on Customs snag season. I have been selling some of my NC stash to raise money for the spendy boxes, but I am digging the small stuff right now too. Those PMF are good now, but I think they will be awesome in about 6 months


----------



## Bird-Dog

Oldmso54 said:


> Dont forget about the trademark issues over cigar brand names. General Cigar "owns" through trademark registration, the names of cigars like Cohiba, Bolivar, Cifuentes, El Rey del Mundo, Partagas and Punch. Consolidated Cigars owns some other traditionally cuban names and some other companies have trademark rights on a brand name here and there.
> 
> There are a number of articles out there for your reading pleasure about the lawsuit between Cohiba and General Cigar where the U. S. Supreme Court denied the petition of the Cuban tobacco marketing agency, Cubatabaco, representing the Cohiba name.
> 
> That's just a tip of the iceberg synopsis but the trademark naming rights are going to be a hurdle for both sides to overcome. Imagine consumers having to decipher between a Cuban Cohiba and a non cuban General Cigar Cohiba.? And you thought trying to figure out fakes was bad...


Where there's money on the line, I suspect they'll work it out. Just my guess. But, I think these preliminaries are just jockeying for position. Once the race starts in earnest they'll be drafting off each other.

The key is Altadis/Imperial Tobacco. They have a 50% interest in HSA. So, even though GC and others are competition, Altadis stands to gain by giving them distribution rights rather than a long drawn out court battle that causes everyone to miss out on revenues. That is, unless GC thinks they'd do better to continue to stick strictly with NC's under those trademarks. If that's the case, then let the fur fly! In the meantime, Altadis owned trademarks will dominate the US market in CC's (Montecristo, H. Upmann, Romeo y Julieta, Trinidad, etc...)


----------



## socalocmatt

In the short term, CC with competing NC names can just use another name for what's carried in the U.S. market. For instance, Edmundo Dante is the Monte RE in Mexico.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


----------



## Doxie Lover

This could be a dream come true.


----------



## elco69

Doxie Lover said:


> This could be a dream come true.


Just sayin, not hard to get now. Legally get it will be years because of legal battles between the 2 brands of the same name and who has the actually rights to use it.


----------



## ras_oscar

Oldmso54 said:


> Dont forget about the trademark issues over cigar brand names. General Cigar "owns" through trademark registration, the names of cigars like Cohiba, Bolivar, Cifuentes, El Rey del Mundo, Partagas and Punch. Consolidated Cigars owns some other traditionally cuban names and some other companies have trademark rights on a brand name here and there.
> 
> There are a number of articles out there for your reading pleasure about the lawsuit between Cohiba and General Cigar where the U. S. Supreme Court denied the petition of the Cuban tobacco marketing agency, Cubatabaco, representing the Cohiba name.
> 
> That's just a tip of the iceberg synopsis but the trademark naming rights are going to be a hurdle for both sides to overcome. Imagine consumers having to decipher between a Cuban Cohiba and a non cuban General Cigar Cohiba.? And you thought trying to figure out fakes was bad...


 I have given a bit of thought to this. There are presently fans of the US Cohiba line. There are also fans of the Cuban Cohibas. So long as the products are clearly labeled as to point of origin, let the marked decide which one survives.


----------



## Bird-Dog

ras_oscar said:


> I have given a bit of thought to this. There are presently fans of the US Cohiba line. There are also fans of the Cuban Cohibas. So long as the products are clearly labeled as to point of origin, let the marke(t) decide which one survives.


Not gonna' happen. There's big money on the line.


----------



## ras_oscar

You're probably right, but consider the history of some names: Owned by private companies, nationalized by the Cuban government after the revloution without compensation. A taking in US legal terms. The companies sued in US federal court for the right to retain their name in US markets and won. Worked hard to maintain their brand name recognition in the US market, built up a loyal following. Are you going to take the name from them again?

From the Cuban side: worked for 50 years to maintain a loyal following (you can't last that long in previous history, at some point you have to produce reliable product). Forcing those names out if business is no less fair then the US companies. The fact that they are all owned by the Cuban Government is irrelevant, IMHO.

Similar issues regarding property such as real estate confiscated during the revolution and now occupied by Cuban citizens. IMHO the biggest obstacle to normalized relations with Cuba. Will be intetresting to see where it all falls out.


----------



## Bird-Dog

ras_oscar said:


> You're probably right, but consider the history of some names: Owned by private companies, nationalized by the Cuban government after the revloution without compensation. A taking in US legal terms. The companies sued in US federal court for the right to retain their name in US markets and won. Worked hard to maintain their brand name recognition in the US market, built up a loyal following. Are you going to take the name from them again?
> 
> From the Cuban side: worked for 50 years to maintain a loyal following (you can't last that long in previous history, at some point you have to produce reliable product). Forcing those names out if business is no less fair then the US companies. The fact that they are all owned by the Cuban Government is irrelevant, IMHO.
> 
> Similar issues regarding property such as real estate confiscated during the revolution and now occupied by Cuban citizens. IMHO the biggest obstacle to normalized relations with Cuba. Will be intetresting to see where it all falls out.


Yes, there are gray areas regarding pre-revolution brand names that were previously marketed in the US, claimed by families who fled Cuba, subsequently purchased for the US market by other companies, and sold as NC's in the interim.

OTOH, HSA can claim an unbroken continuum of production outside US markets, compounded by being forced to resign from US sales. Add to that their assertion that the original ownerships were forfeit by virtue of both the nationalization of the cigar industry in Cuba and those families or individuals fleeing the island.

However, your post regarded Cohiba. Cohiba is NOT a pre-revolution brand. According to my understanding of US Trademark law GC has a legitimate claim on the Cohiba trademark for the US. I'm not an attorney, but I've been involved in several TM infringement cases with companies I've owned (for the record, I was in the right each time, but it cost me a ton of money to enforce my TM's).

Anyway, the upshot is, GC should win on that one (Cohiba) in the long run... if it's taken to it's full fruitition in US courts. Nevertheless, they're no fools. I'm quite sure they realize that there's a huge opportunity in marketing Cuban Cohibas here when the time comes.

Frankly, the struggle is less likely about who owns the name here than it is about distribution. My guess is HSA/Altadis would likely offer GC the right to distribute Cuban Cohibas in the US. There's money in it for all! But GC wants to continue their NC's under that name as well and HSA/Altadis doesn't want to concede that point.


----------



## havanajohn

Be careful what you wish for...If and when Cuban cigars become available in the United States,What do you think the local (in the US) LCDH will be selling them for? The U.S. government will tax them heavily, not to mention any state taxes on tobacco. Look at the prices from the LCDH store around the world, and then add on to it. We who do buy from vendors via the internet, have the luxury of duty free (tax free) cigars. 
Also there will be such a pent up demand for Cuban Puros, that there will be shortages (not likely), or we will return to the period around 1999-2000, where Cuba was cranking out product to meet demand. Untrained or poorly trained torcedores (sp?) will be using poorly or under fermented leaf, and the results will be good. Does anyone renumber that period I speak of? Stock up now,and have confidence in your vendor to get over this rough spot if it does come.


----------



## meatcake

Cuban Cigars will be B&M only IF, and that is a big IF, they ever become 100% legal to sell in the US. 
I figure exclusive rights to sell will go to "Casa De Montecristo" superstores, which is why you see them popping up places. They will be limited quantity, and super expensive. 
Altadis wants to keep the exclusivity for a while for obvious reasons. However, the new FDA ruling pretty much put the screws to these ever floating our way legally in its current incarnation.


----------



## BigB2943

Went on honeymoon last year. Customs agent said its ok to bring back Cubans as long as I don't have a ton of them. I checked the website and it said 25 Cuban cigars or 200 cigarettes or 100$ worth of Cuban tobacco. 100$ of Cuban alcohol as well. 

If you look at the site today. It has changed drastically and is back to being pretty much prohibited. 

The customs agent said the reason it was regulated to $100 worth was so the pricing of Cuban cigars didn't get interrupted by the United States 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DarkSky

I just heard about this today. I don't think it says anything about U.S. stores being able to order them but visitors to Cuba can bring back whatever they like.

Obama lifts restrictions on Cuban rum, cigars


----------



## RayVer

This is BIG news. What's even better about the lift is now you can also buy it from ANY country, not just Cuba, as a traveler. 
The prior $100 limit policy restricted the purchases to coming only from Cuba for travelers.

You still can't buy them online legally, but I'm sure that's only a matter of time before it changes.


----------



## StogieNinja

The news doesn't change much. It only applies to international travelers, and the closest place to get them, Canada and Mexico, have serious drawbacks. Canada has such high taxes, a Party Mille Fleur is like $18 in Victoria. Mexico has so many fakes, the proliferation of counterfeits down south will explode. 

The administration's moves also make no change to the trade policy, only congress can make that change. Until that happens, you cant order them online or buy them in your local B&M. And even if congress does act, there's the new FDA regulations to complicate things, before we even get into the trademark issues.

The vast majority of people will continue to do business as usual, and that will continue for some time to come.


----------



## DarkSky

Being a Canadian, this SUCKS for us. It's going to drive the price of Cubans higher than they already are. Maybe not so much just from people traveling from the States to Cuba/Canada, but once the U.S. stores start carrying and demand skyrockets, so will those prices.

I can still remember my last trip to Cuba - 'picked up a box of 25 Monte #2s for $180 Cdn. 'Never see THAT again.


----------



## UBC03

The vast majority of people will continue to do business as usual, and that will continue for some time to come.[/QUOTE]

Let's hope so..

Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk


----------



## PJD

This is going to be a game changer. The big change will be duty free shops being able to sell these at Canadian land crossings into the U.S. Canadian citizens can buy them before a long weekend in the U.S. then legally bring them back into Canada (where it was never a problem, other than by quantity permitted duty-free). 

It will all depend on pricing. At the moment you can get a box of no-name US-legal sticks for about what they'd cost at an American B&M. Very limited selection and rarely anything interesting. They really seem to flog a brand called Don Tomas at the Canada-to-U.S. border, something I've never heard of at any B&M down here. I suspect Cubans will be a positively huge seller for the folks who run those shops. I visit Canada every year so I'm hoping their selection is good and prices are better than at fully-taxed Canadian B&Ms.


----------



## StogieNinja

PJD said:


> This is going to be a game changer. The big change will be duty free shops being able to sell these at Canadian land crossings into the U.S. Canadian citizens can buy them before a long weekend in the U.S. then legally bring them back into Canada (where it was never a problem, other than by quantity permitted duty-free).
> 
> It will all depend on pricing. At the moment you can get a box of no-name US-legal sticks for about what they'd cost at an American B&M. Very limited selection and rarely anything interesting. They really seem to flog a brand called Don Tomas at the Canada-to-U.S. border, something I've never heard of at any B&M down here. I suspect Cubans will be a positively huge seller for the folks who run those shops. I visit Canada every year so I'm hoping their selection is good and prices are better than at fully-taxed Canadian B&Ms.


It will be quite interesting to see what happens in Duty Free shops. However, given the high prices in Canada, I sincerely doubt they will be low enough to bother with at the Duty Free shops. Certainly there will be many who will look at the prices in Canada, and buy at the Duty Free shops seeing a "bargain" but for those of us currently getting our supply in other ways, I just can't see the prices being low enough to appeal to me, or anyone like me.


----------



## Tabloid Snapper

My question is if say a company like La Pearl Habana has both a US & Cuban presense are both companies control by different folks? Also before becoming too excited you can NOT import Cuban smokes. You have to leave the USA to pick up your stick, but can bring back all you want paying TAXES & DUTIES to the Customer Service Officer at the port of entry.

So until these Cuban stick can be imported & sold in the USA not much has changed IMHO. I do not like air planes, or ships so unwell I got to some Mexican Border Town I will not be soling anything from the communist island nation called QBA. LOL


----------



## Bird-Dog

Tabloid Snapper said:


> My question is if say a company like La Pearl Habana has both a US & Cuban presense are both companies control by different folks? Also before becoming too excited you can NOT import Cuban smokes. You have to leave the USA to pick up your stick, but can bring back all you want paying TAXES & DUTIES to the Customer Service Officer at the port of entry.
> 
> So until these Cuban stick can be imported & sold in the USA not much has changed IMHO. I do not like air planes, or ships so unwell I got to some Mexican Border Town I will not be soling anything from the communist island nation called QBA. LOL


Find someone to explain it to you, Do-Re-Mi style (_...start at the very beginning, a very good place to start_). I don't think you have a very good grasp of any of it.


----------



## Matthew Turner

I just asked my wife if she wanted to get in the truck with me and drive to Windsor. She rolled her eyes. No changes here.


----------



## Tabloid Snapper

Well one of the talk-jocks on the radio suggest that wise B & M operator would go to some foreign, land buy cases & case of Cuban, return to the USA pay customs, duties, and import charges. Then make a killing off their customers selling the real deal for big profits.

I called the guy producer and told them to I call B & M owner, and run their idea to the real deal B & M operator. The producer said his boss what just trying to make the phone ring, and was running in so many words.

_(MODERATOR EDIT FOR CONTENT)_


----------



## PJD

Tabloid Snapper said:


> Also before becoming too excited you can NOT import Cuban smokes. You have to leave the USA to pick up your stick, but can bring back all you want paying TAXES & DUTIES to the Customer Service Officer at the port of entry.


The U.S., like most nations, allows for the import of modest quantities of tobacco and alcohol after an absence of a certain period of time. In the case of the U.S., a returning legal resident can bring back up to 100 cigars duty and tax free, so long as their value is less than the overall 30 day $800 personal exemption, after a 48 hour absence from the country. So if I go up to Toronto for a few days and buy four boxes of Cubans at the border duty free shop all I'd have to do at the customs booth is tell the agent in the booth that "I bought 100 cigars and here's my receipt." If it's under $800 then that's it. If it's over $800 then they may or may not assess extra duties/taxes, at their discretion. The extra taxes/duties on personal consumption cigars are minimal if they choose to assess them (see https://www.ttb.gov/tax_audit/atftaxes.shtml).

I know with alcohol you're allowed 1 litre of hard liquor but I regularly declare 4 or 5 bottles of Scotch when I travel overseas and I've never once had to pay duty/tax on the excess, so it's up the the officer's discretion. The most attention I ever got was the officer at asking me what I bought (after I said 5 bottles of Scotch). I itemized them for him and he smiled and told me I had great taste, and suggested I try Laphroaig next time...I told him that was a personal favourite and we chatted Scotch for a minute or two and he sent me on my way.

I'm betting once this whole new process is in full effect and the Duty Free shops' supply chain is up and running and the prices stabilize after the initial surge it will be much the same as for liquor. Buy what you want, legally declare it and enjoy. Canadian B&M prices for Cubans are indeed insanely high, but that's all the government taxes and surcharges on 'baccy, not retailers marking up the product for profit. So I'm betting that if a Duty Free shop at a US/Canada land crossing can get product wholesale at or close to what the rest of the world gets it for, then it won't be horrible for travelers. Although like I said, I think the first year will see insane prices until the novelty wears off and sales at the high prices fall.


----------



## Tabloid Snapper

Rush Limbaugh talked about Obama's exeucutive order yesterday, and said the companies in the USA many be be facing trademark infringement cases, if CC become available under name already owned by companies that distribute in the USA, the names they have trademarked.


----------



## StogieNinja

Tabloid Snapper said:


> Rush Limbaugh talked about Obama's exeucutive order yesterday, and said the companies in the USA many be be facing trademark infringement cases, if CC become available under name already owned by companies that distribute in the USA, the names they have trademarked.


This is a huge issue everyone has known about for years. Won't make a difference until congress lifts the embargo because Cuba's trademarks aren't recognized in the US.


----------



## PJD

Yes, this will be a huge deal should the embargo fall, but I think what will be more worrisome over the long term will be that the big producers in Nicaragua, Honduras, the D.R. and other places will buy every scrap of Cuban 'baccy to blend with their own. The results will probably be spectacular in the long term, but in the short term we'd almost certainly see the demise of the Cuban puro, or at least a doubling or tripling of the prices, as well as a number of famous _marcas_ and/or _vitolas _going extinct pretty quickly.


----------



## Bird-Dog

PJD said:


> Yes, this will be a huge deal should the embargo fall, but I think what will be more worrisome over the long term will be that the big producers in Nicaragua, Honduras, the D.R. and other places will buy every scrap of Cuban 'baccy to blend with their own. The results will probably be spectacular in the long term, but in the short term we'd almost certainly see the demise of the Cuban puro, or at least a doubling or tripling of the prices, as well as a number of famous _marcas_ and/or _vitolas _going extinct pretty quickly.


Who says Cuba will sell tobacco to NC makers? Plus, FDA vetting could be an issue with that.

Altadis owns the US trademarks for roughly half the Cuban marcas. They also own a 50% share in HSA. The Altadis marcas are likely a shoo-in. Big money to be made, rather than fighting their own interests. General Cigar owns most of the rest. So, the biggest question is whether HSA/Altadis wants to fight GC (or _vice versa_) or work out a mutually beneficial distribution arrangement for the GC brands.

In the meantime, technically the new rule on bringing in Cuban cigars should be a moot point. U.S. Customs should, by all rights, stop them at the border for trademark infringement. Probably won't happen, but technically it should.


----------



## Tabloid Snapper

PJD said:


> Yes, this will be a huge deal should the embargo fall, but I think what will be more worrisome over the long term will be that the big producers in Nicaragua, Honduras, the D.R. and other places will buy every scrap of Cuban 'baccy to blend with their own. The results will probably be spectacular in the long term, but in the short term we'd almost certainly see the demise of the Cuban puro, or at least a doubling or tripling of the prices, as well as a number of famous _marcas_ and/or _vitolas _going extinct pretty quickly.


I honestly expect the lifting of trade embargos could be done by this POTUS as I think the embargo lifting could also open up trade that would be good for the US & Cuba. Cuba might benefit from Wal-Mart stores, and other American companies eage to sell stuff in Cuba.


----------



## PJD

He can't lift the full embargo by himself; that will take an act of Congress plus his signature. But you're right that once that happens and there's a free flow of U.S. capital to the island it will benefit everybody.


----------



## Tabloid Snapper

Well I personally smoke inexpensive Cigars, I buy most online always looking for deals. I am not one of those who will with out thinking spend over $12.00 a stick. I have learn over trail and effort buy 5 packs off Cigar Bid there are some hidden gems out their under $7.00-$8.00 a stick.

Last week I bought two La Gloria's at a local B & M for $7.00 each, out the door with local Tabacco & Sales Tax I was out $15.00. Spending that money hurt. After smoking the sticks I went on a mission to buy a box of each ther were that good. The 18 in the box I found for like $77.00 - $80.00/Box delivered. They should arrive next week.

Less then $4.50 delivered. I am excited for finding some new I like, and getter a deal on it. Honestly Cigar do not have to be made in CUBA to make me smile.

Over 30 years ago I bought some Cigars from a wholesaler in Los Angeles by mistake. The owner told me these cigars were from Tobacco grown in & made Nicagraga from seeds that were smuggled out of Cuba when many people fled Cuba. I bought a bundle to try these sticks he spoke so highly of, think the bundle of 20 was under $25.00. For over 20 years I bought Cigars from this wholesaler until he retired, closing shop.


----------



## bpegler

Tabloid Snapper said:


> Well I personally smoke inexpensive Cigars, I buy most online always looking for deals. I am not one of those who will with out thinking spend over $12.00 a stick. I have learn over trail and effort buy 5 packs off Cigar Bid there are some hidden gems out their under $7.00-$8.00 a stick.
> 
> Last week I bought two La Gloria's at a local B & M for $7.00 each, out the door with local Tabacco & Sales Tax I was out $15.00. Spending that money hurt. After smoking the sticks I went on a mission to buy a box of each ther were that good. The 18 in the box I found for like $77.00 - $80.00/Box delivered. They should arrive next week.
> 
> Less then $4.50 delivered. I am excited for finding some new I like, and getter a deal on it. Honestly Cigar do not have to be made in CUBA to make me smile.
> 
> Over 30 years ago I bought some Cigars from a wholesaler in Los Angeles by mistake. The owner told me these cigars were from Tobacco grown in & made Nicagraga from seeds that were smuggled out of Cuba when many people fled Cuba. I bought a bundle to try these sticks he spoke so highly of, think the bundle of 20 was under $25.00. For over 20 years I bought Cigars from this wholesaler until he retired, closing shop.


There are many good value cigars that are Havanas, in the $2-$5 range that you seem to prefer. Even the premium Havanas are roughly the same price as a premium NC.

There are also super cheap Cuban cigars that the locals smoke, known as "peso" cigars. A bit rough around the edges, but smokable.


----------



## DarkSky

StogieNinja said:


> It will be quite interesting to see what happens in Duty Free shops. However, given the high prices in Canada, I sincerely doubt they will be low enough to bother with at the Duty Free shops. Certainly there will be many who will look at the prices in Canada, and buy at the Duty Free shops seeing a "bargain" but for those of us currently getting our supply in other ways, I just can't see the prices being low enough to appeal to me, or anyone like me.


Actually, one potential positive is that even if the new increased demand causes the prices to jump - if US stores start carrying them, I may be able to order them online from the States and avoid the tobacco tax, which in the end, will still be cheaper than buying them in Canada. I've ordered quite a few boxes from online US stores in the past (non-Cubans of course) and haven't been dinged for duty yet (knock on wood). Granted, one of the stores I order most of my stuff to is nice enough to put it down as a gift, or 'handmade arts/crafts' (which technically *is* the true, hah).


----------



## StogieNinja

DarkSky said:


> Actually, one potential positive is that even if the new increased demand causes the prices to jump - if US stores start carrying them, I may be able to order them online from the States and avoid the tobacco tax, which in the end, will still be cheaper than buying them in Canada. I've ordered quite a few boxes from online US stores in the past (non-Cubans of course) and haven't been dinged for duty yet (knock on wood). Granted, one of the stores I order most of my stuff to is nice enough to put it down as a gift, or 'handmade arts/crafts' (which technically *is* the true, hah).


Except that the embargo is still firmly in place. US stores can't sell them, online or otherwise.


----------



## Bird-Dog

StogieNinja said:


> Except that the embargo is still firmly in place. US stores can't sell them, online or otherwise.


Not to mention that @DarkSky's ploy for skirting Canadian duty is also illegal.


----------



## PJD

One legal way would be to buy outbound at the duty free on the Canadian side before entering the U.S. Stay for 48 hours then you can re-import them legally (so long as you're out for 48 hours or more). Of course you're limited to however many sticks Canadian Customs allows in duty-free.


----------



## ras_oscar

curmudgeonista said:


> Altadis owns the US trademarks for roughly half the Cuban marcas. They also own a 50% share in HSA.


Outside the US, which trademark is recognized/accepted: US or Cuban?


----------



## Bird-Dog

ras_oscar said:


> Outside the US, which trademark is recognized/accepted: US or Cuban?


Cuban


----------



## Randy956

curmudgeonista said:


> Cuban


They (Cubans) are first in line if I recall my law class correctly.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Randy956

My thoughts are that it is disingenuous for other companies to use legitimate trademarked Cuban names and titles on their non Cuban products. I sincerely hope many traditional Cuban brand names have been trademarked. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Bruced

Companies like General Cigar who does legal Cohiba's. Will fight the day if it ever come to bring brands like Cohiba's into the USA. I can see legal problem because General owner the TradeMark for Cohiba in the USA. They could license, or partner with the Cohiba Cuban People or make them come to America under a new name.

Ashton does some thing in their line that they sell out of the USA, they are selling those Cigar world wide I=under different names, as the Cuban Goverment owns the name Ashton sell in the USA.

This is all about dollar & cents, and protecting their branding in what ever market. Be it the USA, or Europe or Asia.


----------



## Randy956

It will be legal bedlam, no question. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Bird-Dog

Here's the big catch. Many of those US trademarks were claimed by the ex-pat Cuban families, that had owned and produced the brands in Cuba prior to the revolution, when they left Cuba to establish cigar factories in other countries. So, even though nearly all of those TM's have been bought up by larger cigar companies at this point, there is a paper trail leading back to the time just after the revolution when they were claimed by families with legitimate ties to the brands. However, if I'm not mistaken, the TM's actually already existed on the US books and, due to political circumstances, were nullified through political action relative to the embargo. So, the Cuban gov't contends that they have a legal right to them, pre-dating subsequent claims, as a function of nationalization of the Cuban tobacco industry; claims that are legitimate in their eyes, but not from the perspective of the families they were confiscated from.

There are a few exceptions. For example, Cohiba and Trinidad are post-revolution Cuban marques that were copied and trademarked in the US years later; Cuba being unable to register them in the US. And uniquely, Guantanamera, which was a US trademarked NC brand before Cuba co-opted the name for their current line of ICT machine-made cigars.

And while the legal battle could take years and years to resolve if the US ever re-opens trade with Cuba, I suspect Cuba is fully capable of registering new trademarks and selling cigars here under different marques than the rest of the world while the dispute slowly winds it's way through US courts. If you don't believe me, just take a look at a list of (mostly) defunct pre-revolution brands (https://www.cubancigarwebsite.com/brand/pre1960brands). Other than losing the market recognition developed outside the US over the last 50-some-odd years, what's to stop Cuba from resurrecting old brands to market under in the US? I have to believe that the US's appetite for Cuban cigars would quickly accept alternative labels.


----------



## lapis12

Thanks for this healthy discussion


----------



## Scap

lapis12 said:


> Thanks for this healthy discussion


Seriously, just log out and go somewhere else to dredge up old threads.

Don't you have some RO water that needs to be inspected for impurities?


----------



## TexaSmoke

Scap said:


> Seriously, just log out and go somewhere else to dredge up old threads.
> 
> Don't you have some RO water that needs to be inspected for impurities?


At least this one was only 18 months old and not a decade!


----------



## Bird-Dog

lapis12 said:


> Thanks for this healthy discussion





Scap said:


> Seriously, just log out and go somewhere else to dredge up old threads.
> 
> Don't you have some RO water that needs to be inspected for impurities?


Dollars to dimes, he's here to promote his lame water filtration website his email leads to and just trying to pad his post count until he can post links. I'm going to rid us of him preemptively based on that connection.


----------



## TexaSmoke

curmudgeonista said:


> Dollars to dimes, he's here to promote his lame water filtration website his email leads to and just trying to pad his post count until he can post links. I'm going to rid us of him preemptively based on that connection.


I need a water filtration device about as much as I need that extended warranty for my vehicle they call me about 6 times a day.


----------



## LeatherNeck

curmudgeonista said:


> Dollars to dimes, he's here to promote his lame water filtration website his email leads to and just trying to pad his post count until he can post links. I'm going to rid us of him preemptively based on that connection.





TexaSmoke said:


> I need a water filtration device about as much as I need that extended warranty for my vehicle they call me about 6 times a day.


If I want info on water filtration/purification I'll consult our resident expert @Ranger0282. I'm sure Dave's method tastes better anyway. :vs_laugh:


----------



## Ranger0282

LeatherNeck said:


> If I want info on water filtration/purification I'll consult our resident expert @*Ranger0282*. I'm sure Dave's method tastes better anyway. :vs_laugh:


I can make the water so pure...it'll catch fire...


----------



## Peapaw

Ranger0282 said:


> I can make the water so pure...it'll catch fire...


Sounds like my kind of water.

Sent from somewhere on the road.


----------



## TexaSmoke

Ranger0282 said:


> I can make the water so pure...it'll catch fire...


I'm a licensed water purification technician. I'm going to need a sample of this water for further inspection.


----------



## UBC03

Ranger0282 said:


> I can make the water so pure...it'll catch fire...


Only distilled water that you can run your car on.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


----------



## Cigary

curmudgeonista said:


> Dollars to dimes, he's here to promote his lame water filtration website his email leads to and just trying to pad his post count until he can post links. I'm going to rid us of him preemptively based on that connection.


Lol.....ya know they hate it when they get figured out..... right when they start feeling comfortable and think they're ahead of the game...and you spring the trap door and down they go. Enjoyed it.:grin2:


----------



## BudgetMinded

Once they become legal I think people will finally accept that Cuba is no longer a good producer of cigars. The other producing nations have surpassed the Cubans in consistency and quality. 



If anything the demand for non Cubans will go up. People in europe complain about non Cuban prices but the reality is you can't save money if your cigars are plugged or rushed fermentation.


----------



## Bird-Dog

Lol


----------



## UBC03

BudgetMinded said:


> Once they become legal I think people will finally accept that Cuba is no longer a good producer of cigars. The other producing nations have surpassed the Cubans in consistency and quality.
> 
> If anything the demand for non Cubans will go up. People in europe complain about non Cuban prices but the reality is you can't save money if your cigars are plugged or rushed fermentation.


I smoke quite a bit of Cubans and I have to say you're wrong. If you keep em at 70/70 maybe. But if the person knows anything about Cubans, you don't get over 65. Mostly I keep mine at 61. I rarely have an issue, and never one that I couldn't remedy. The last couple plugged cigars I couldn't save were NCs stored at 65. So should I tell people all NCs are garbage and aren't fit to smoke.

So please quit purposely spreading falsehoods on this forum. When you dig up a year old zombie thread just to complain about Cubans. It doesn't look good on you.

Sent from. .. inside your house... bwahaha


----------



## TonyBrooklyn

Damn and here i thought i was gonna see an article on the legality of Cuban Cigars.:vs_laugh:


----------



## TonyBrooklyn

BudgetMinded said:


> Once they become legal I think people will finally accept that Cuba is no longer a good producer of cigars. The other producing nations have surpassed the Cubans in consistency and quality.
> 
> If anything the demand for non Cubans will go up. People in europe complain about non Cuban prices but the reality is you can't save money if your cigars are plugged or rushed fermentation.


I like em tight like that i use them for tent pegs.:vs_mad:
Got any you don't want?
I'll take you camping. :grin2::vs_laugh:


----------



## bpegler

BudgetMinded said:


> Once they become legal I think people will finally accept that Cuba is no longer a good producer of cigars. The other producing nations have surpassed the Cubans in consistency and quality.
> 
> If anything the demand for non Cubans will go up. People in europe complain about non Cuban prices but the reality is you can't save money if your cigars are plugged or rushed fermentation.


I thought you only recently smoked a few cheap RyJs after not smoking any Havanas since the mid 1990s? Did I miss something?

How did you reach such a broad conclusion from such a tiny sample?


----------



## OldGringo

TonyBrooklyn said:


> I like em tight like that i use them for tent pegs.:vs_mad:
> Got any you don't want?
> I'll take you camping. :grin2::vs_laugh:


Be careful Budget and keep your ears open. If you hear banjo music run like the wind!


----------



## Wheels Up

My stars...

All this time I thought I was enjoying Cuban cigars because they’re good. Little did I know that they’re sub-par! That must be why nobody ever tries to skirt the edges of import regulations to get those over-priced, always plugged, flavorless rolls of tobacco.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Scap

BudgetMinded said:


> Once they become legal I think people will finally accept that Cuba is no longer a good producer of cigars. The other producing nations have surpassed the Cubans in consistency and quality.
> 
> If anything the demand for non Cubans will go up. People in europe complain about non Cuban prices but the reality is you can't save money if your cigars are plugged or rushed fermentation.


Someone please throw some cornstarch on this itchy crotch.


----------



## TonyBrooklyn

OldGringo said:


> Be careful Budget and keep your ears open. If you hear banjo music run like the wind!


I knew someone would get that!:vs_laugh:

Well done sir R/G blast headed your way!:vs_cool:


----------



## UBC03

TonyBrooklyn said:


> I knew someone would get that!:vs_laugh:
> 
> Well done sir R/G blast headed your way!:vs_cool:


I live in West Virginia. We don't joke about that stuff..

Sent from. .. inside your house... bwahaha


----------



## TonyBrooklyn

UBC03 said:


> I live in West Virginia. We don't joke about that stuff..
> 
> Sent from. .. inside your house... bwahaha


And i always thought it was filmed in Georgia.:vs_laugh:


----------



## UBC03

TonyBrooklyn said:


> And i always thought it was filmed in Georgia.:vs_laugh:


Nope, downstate West Virginia.

No they're nice people, but you need a freakin translator. At one cracker we had a guy from Florida that used to translate what those guys and the guys from Kentucky were saying.

I mean I've been told I've got an accent n'at but yunz guys know what I'm sayin.

Sent from. .. inside your house... bwahaha


----------



## GunnyJ

If we're talking about the movie Deliverance, it was filmed in Georgia and the story takes place in Georgia.


----------



## ForMud

I don't know where it was filmed.....But I like the cigar named the same.

Funny story....My daughters boy friend ( He just started working as a prison guard ) was over waiting for her to get ready. I was flipping the channels and saw Deliverance was on, so I put it on and low and behold the rape scene just started.
He had never seen the movie before and sat in stunned silence as it played out. At the next commercial he got up and said "That was uncomfortable" and left the room. 
A couple minutes late I heard my daughter in the other room say to him "Squeal like a pig" and laughing real loud.....Poor boy couldn't make eye contact with me for a week or two.


----------



## UBC03

ForMud said:


> I don't know where it was filmed.....But I like the cigar named the same.
> 
> Funny story....My daughters boy friend ( He just started working as a prison guard ) was over waiting for her to get ready. I was flipping the channels and saw Deliverance was on, so I put it on and low and behold the rape scene just started.
> 
> He had never seen the movie before and sat in stunned silence as it played out. At the next commercial he got up and said "That was uncomfortable" and left the room.
> 
> A couple minutes late I heard my daughter in the other room say to him "Squeal like a pig" and laughing real loud.....Poor boy couldn't make eye contact with me for a week or two.


Next time he comes over tell him what a purdy mouth he got..

Sent from. .. inside your house... bwahaha


----------



## GunnyJ

ForMud said:


> I don't know where it was filmed.....


Georgia.


----------



## Ijones

Cuban ban: President Donald Trump on Wednesday announced a new series of economic sanctions on Cuba that ban US citizens from buying Cuban cigars as well as rum and staying at Cuban government-owned hotels on the communist-run island.

"Today, as part of our continuing fight against communist oppression, I am announcing that the Treasury Department will prohibit US travelers from staying at properties owned by the Cuban government," Trump said at a White House event honoring Bay of Pigs veterans. "We're also further restricting the importation of Cuban alcohol and Cuban tobacco."

"These actions will ensure that US dollars do not fund the Cuban regime and go directly to the Cuban people," the President asserted.


----------

