# Sources For Cuban Cigars



## MoTheMan

*Now that I've got your attention, please read this.*

I've been getting recent PM's & e-mails from people asking me about acquiring Havanas. Right now I'm getting about 2-3 such mailings a week, kid you not.

I'd like to take this time to remind those reading this forum about Club Stogie Policy.
I recently received the following e-mail from a fellow member. Now this member has been posting for a while and I don't want to say who he is because I have a bit of respect for his knowledge and contribution to the board. Still, I felt very uncomfortable when I received his message.


Einstein said:


> Hey Mo:
> 
> This may be a bit forward, so trash it if i am out of line.
> 
> You're highly respected around here, and i know you travel quite a bit, and smoke some fine Cubans.
> 
> Here's my situation ....
> I have yet to smoke a Cuban, but all the talk here has me interested. The thing is i have no idea how to go about acquiring them. Sure, i could just do a search, but i would be taking a shot in the dark.
> 
> Could you point me to some reputable dealers that you would recommend? Or perhaps you get them all on your travels?
> 
> And second, just what cigar do you think i should try. I tend to like the fmedium to fuller bodied cigars.
> 
> Again, if i am out of line here, i understand. I just am at a loss as to how to proceed.
> 
> Thanks for your considering my request.
> 
> Regards,
> *[P.S. This PM wasn't really from Einstein but from another member. Einstein is my cat, so he didn't really write this.] *


Rather than trash a member, what I'd like to do is maybe answer a few questions and set a few rules so that people can stop bothering me.

1) Buying and importing Cuban products into the US, whether they be cigars, rum, coffee, art pieces, or whatever is illegal and subjects the individual doing it to fines and/or imprisonment.

2) Individuals committing such actions are taking risk by doing so. That's their decision and they're the ones who have to live with it. I will not advocate or support it. If someone is determined to find and acquire Havanas, please don't ask me how to go about doing so. My reason for being on this board is to learn more about cigars, to enhance my experience with cigars, and to share the love of the leaf with others having the same passion.

3) When I first started smoking cigars in 1996, I was determined to try Havanas. By spring '97 I had found a dealer in Switzerland who promised me that he could get Havanas in intact packaging to me in the US. Well, the second shipment was seized, and the fourth shipment was seized. To this day I could still face legal actions for those two infractions. So I'm a lot more cautious about buying and acquiring Havanas. I'm lucky that I get to travel out of the country a good deal; that's where I can buy & smoke Havanas without the scrutiny of a government enforcement agency. I am also lucky that I have friends living overseas (both American & foreign nationals), who are always willing to pick up a box or two of cigars for me on their trips to the US.

4) Now the question comes up "How do you find a good vendor?" Well, I ask back, how do you find a good vendor. I'd say the same way you find a good vendor where you live now. You visit the store, check out the selections, talk/e-mail/write to the owner/vendor, maybe scrutinize their customer service, and just get a feel if you want to buy from them. That's what I do whenever I get to travel out of the US. I visit several stores and check things out.

5) Get to know the other members here at CS. No, I'm not talking about reading faceless posts, I'm talking about really knowing people. Maybe some of you have already bonded with some of the BOTLs/SOTL's here because you recognized similar interests by their posts; that's good. But what I'm talking about here is sharing the passion of the leaf. Communicating back & forth. Getting together with fellow smokers for a little herf, not to see what you can score or if you can get information on some new dealers of cigars. Others will very quickly recognize cheap, self-indulgent behavior like this.

The "elders" of Club Stogie, those who've been posting since 1997, or 2000, or even 2001 know what I'm talking about here. They were posting and writing each other, and getting together for herfs long before many others joined. You can learn a lot more about Cuban cigars from others by getting to know them. There's a richness of knowledge & experience there that can't be found in any book.

If someone's too impatient to get to know some of the other members here, then maybe they need to think about hanging out elsewhere. [I hope I'm not being too presumptuous here.]

6) The other question that comes up is which Cubans someone should try. The answer is simple: Use your intuition. I can tell you this, the great classics, i.e. Cohiba Robusto, HdM Double Corona, Punch Punch, RyJ Churchill (Tubo), Bolivar Belicoso Fino, Montecristo No. 2 or No. 4, became that way simply because they are classic. Something about the blends, the smoke, the flavor, or the overall experience that is just so consistent (even with variations from year to year). I know a member who loves his Petit Coronas and Marevas (Shorts) but his all time classic is still the Monte2. Another member was dying to try the Cohiba brand, and sure enough in time the SigloI became their favorite. The Cohiba Lancero was Fidel Castro's favorite smoke; I can understand why, it's also mine.

There's no right answer as to which cigar you should try. I say try them all, how else will you find your favorites. Remember what Perleman says, "The best cigar you'll ever smoke might be the very next one you try."


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## cookieboy364

Very good explanation. Handled very well. Thanks for setting a tone here.


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## LastClick

So how can you get us some Cubans??!!


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## GOAT LOCKER

Great post Mo.


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## coppertop

This is important for everyone to read...especially Newbies. Way to go Mo.


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## eef

Thanks Mo, and I'll admit, I was one of those PMers and I did say if I was stepping over a line then disregard the question...

But the main question I was asking, and still have no answer on, is not how to acquire cubans- it's just why are they illegal? This may be a really dumb question but I'm just not in on this information... what's the difference between a cuban and a domestic or whatever? If anyone can help me understand that's something I was curious to know. I tried searching this forum for the info and couldn't find it (though I know it's got to be here somewhere).

I have a ton of respect for you guys here even though I've only been here a short time. Thanks for bein' so good to me, especially you Mo.
-eef


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## WillyGT

eef said:


> Thanks Mo, and I'll admit, I was one of those PMers and I did say if I was stepping over a line then disregard the question...
> 
> But the main question I was asking, and still have no answer on, is not how to acquire cubans- it's just why are they illegal? This may be a really dumb question but I'm just not in on this information... what's the difference between a cuban and a domestic or whatever? If anyone can help me understand that's something I was curious to know. I tried searching this forum for the info and couldn't find it (though I know it's got to be here somewhere).
> 
> I have a ton of respect for you guys here even though I've only been here a short time. Thanks for bein' so good to me, especially you Mo.
> -eef


The difference is exactly that. One is cuban the other one is not. The U.S. have an embargo on Cuba which doesnt allow trade with Cuba. That means you cannot buy or get anything that comes from Cuba since that is a violation to the embargo. I am not that really into the embargo so imight be missing a point here.


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## coppertop

There has been a lot of talk on the Embargo with Cuba. Here is a link that might help you eef.

Cuban Embargo


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## IHT

coppertop provided you with a great link, but there have been updates to that since last summer.

where it states you can bring back $100 worth of goods per person on official visits, that is now not the case... or so the treasury dept's latest update to the embargo on cuba states (had to do a paper on it).

so, the days of govt officials taking their wife and 2 kids and coming home with $400 worth of cigars is over... if i was on my work laptop, i'd have the link to the updated file on this.

here's a page that has links to the embargo (i would've provided more, but this laptop doesn't have adobe on it)


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## coppertop

Yeah I forgot to mention the updates.....whoops sorry eef. Gracias IHT


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## eef

I see. I had no idea about this embargo deal... I'm not really with it in some areas. So it's not that Cuban cigars are so strong they're illegal, or that they're jammed full of marrijuana like alot of people (who don't smoke cigars) say. It's just cuba. Interesting. 

Thanks guys, once again you exceed the common limits of kindness.

-eef


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## IHT

eef said:


> Thanks guys, once again you exceed the common limits of kindness.


some of us are jerks. :tg


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## Steeltown

eef said:


> So it's not that Cuban cigars are so strong they're illegal, or that they're jammed full of marrijuana like alot of people (who don't smoke cigars) say.


Those are blunts. They actually ARE legal in the US if you have a medicinal perscription.

And to Mo, that is a helpful post. While I haven't PM'd you myself, I have had the same types of questions and curiosities. I'm sure when many of you "elders" started out, you wanted to try the champagne of cigars, too. Some of us who haven't tried are more impatient than others, but the simple curosities and desires to try a cuban cigar are not unnatural nor wrong.

I think that many of the newer guys might think, hey, we just want some help here and so we'll PM one of the guys who knows what he's doing. Not knowing that hundreds of other new guys are PMing that same "elder". So looking at things through your "elder" eyes is helpful. I'm sure it gets annoying and painful to deal with. Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.

We mean no disrespect. That doesn't mean people won't still PM "elders" asking for advice, because some new guy/girl will sign up tomorrow, and want to jump right into a champagne filled hot tub. Maybe you can keep this thread Upped for a little while. I think there is a great deal of difference between reading actual feelings from an "elder" who has to deal with this and just reading rule 1 of the policy which states: "DO NOT ask how to buy Cubans in the United States..." To actually get a sense of how annoying it can be to receive tons of PMs about the subject really should cool some people down - I know it has for me.


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## colgate

Not being an oldtimer you can take this advice or leave it. My experience is there are no shortcuts. You must make a trip to a foreign destination with a Casa DH outlet and learn the feel, taste and smell of the genuine article before chancing a purchase through the mail. I have heard of guys who do this with good results. Remember, if a deal goes bad there is no one you can bitch to. You got burned doing something illegal. Too bad soo sad. At least by making a first person introduction you have a name and address to fall back on. 

Make your face to face acquaintances with both seller and cigar and figure out how to take it from there. If you don't travel, you shouldn't be in the game. Just my humble newbie opinion.


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## Darb85

well done MO


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## dayplanner

Well done Mo.

When I was a FNG coppertop told me to hang out and get to know people....all good things come to those who wait. 

He was correct.


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## (909)

For all of you that are not lawyers, this site sums it up in just a few words.

http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/travel/alerts/cuban_cigars.xml


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## Redman

Good read MO. I can see where it would get real worrysome to have several people asking about this daily. Personally I can't afford a 55,000 fine and so I guess I shall stick to the domestice til hopefully something is done about the embargo.


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## Churchlady

HARRUMPH!!!!! :ms


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## TheSmokingHiker

Great post Mo.


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## Pablo

So good it deserves stickiness!


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## P-Town Smokes

Great post Mo.
That's the botom line. I'm a newbie here and have been smokin since the 80's. I have tried so many different brand's that I've forgotten most of them. Once in a while you'll come across one like Mo said and your hooked. I smoke maybe a half dozen ISOM's a year, sure there great, but not a necessity to enjoy the LEAF. 


MoTheMan said:


> *Now that I've got your attention, please read this.*
> 
> There's no right answer as to which cigar you should try. I say try them all, how else will you find your favorites. Remember what Perleman says, "The best cigar you'll ever smoke might be the very next one you try."


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## MoTheMan

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I'm glad that the post is having a positive effect.

Thought I'd copy my post from another thread here as it seemed relevant.

*_____________________________________________________________*

I think it's time I posted a releveant story here since there have been a lot of questions asked lately inquiring about sources of Cuban cigars.

Nearly a year ago I got to hang out & herf with a fellow Brother Of The Leaf who has a long history of smoking Havanas, Mr. G.

Mr. G was a cigarette smoker for many years and had even dabbled with pipes more than a few times. His work & travels have taken him to five continents and over sixty countries visited, so he's been around Havanas for quite some time.

It was about thirty years ago while traveling overseas when he entered a tobacco shop in search for some pipe blends but couldn't find anything that he was either familiar with or appealed to him. The tobacconist there offered a Havana instead assuring him that he would enjoy it. That first Havana simply blew him away. He told me that the experience of it was unlike any smoking experience he had ever had. He pretty much gave up cigarettes & pipes after that and has been, not just a cigar smoker, but a dedicated Habanophile since.

As we herfed we got to talking. Here is somewhat how our conversation transpired.

*Mo*: So tell me G, where do you get your Havanas.

*Mr. G*: I'm not going to tell you that.

*Mo*: [Rude, I thought] That's OK. I know of quite a few sources of where to get Havanas, I was just curious, that's all.

*Mr. G*: I don't mean to be rude my friend, that's not my intention. You see, it's just that I guard my sources for Cuban cigars very closely, and there're several really good reasons why I do that.

I've been smoking for over thirty years. Absolutely fell in love with Cuban cigars from my first stick. I buy & smoke them for the pure passion and enjoyment of them, not to be trendy, to show off, to impress, or to feel the rush of doing something forbidden.

Remember, buying and importing Cuban cigars into the US is against the law. If found guilty, I can get fined and/or go to jail.

*Mo*: You haven't been fined or anything, have you (chuckle).

*Mr. G*: I'll tell you more later. First, let me tell you this. When I first started smoking Havanas, the only way I could get them was to purchase them overseas and bring them back with me on my frequent travels. I always took the risk that they might get confiscated at the airport (or seaport). It actually happened a couple of times. Scared the s--t out of me, but luckily, there were no reprecussions from that. Still, it always worried me.

Over time, I became a regular customer of a few tobacconists whom I frequented on my trips. Heck, one of them in Switzerland even knows my kids' (who are all adults now) names. After some years, these folks began to take the chance and allow me to make the purchase then ship the boxes to me here in the US. While these merchants didn't carry everything I was looking for, over the years as I established a very strong bond with them they would never hesitate to find a particular cigar that I was looking for. Pretty soon, any cigar I could want to buy, I could obtain.

*Mo*: Pretty impressive.

*Mr. G*: Not really, just good customer service.

Anyhow, quite a few years ago, I got a chance to do work for a major Fortune 500 firm and the CFO there was a big cigar smoker. When he found out I was a lover of the leaf, and especially Havanas, he begged & prodded me to no end to reveal my sources to him. So I did, and gave him a couple of references.

Well, this guy could be a bit pompous and loved to show off. Pretty soon he was chain smoking Havanas openly, boasting about his latest cigar acquisition, giving them out to all his friends, just basically being very indiscrete. Next thing I knew, I received a letter from this same vendor that I introduced him to informing me that they were no longer shipping cigars to the US due to a sudden increase of confiscations and an onslaught of inquiry from the US Treasury Dept.

Seems that this character made so much noise that he attracted the attention of the US Sustoms and possibly the Justice Dept. Now I was upset that here I was losing a good vendor that I had used and come to rely on over the years. But the worst part, I found out, was that this vendor had a few dozen very reliable customers in the US that they would also have to cut shipping to. Not only did I suffer due to someone else's indiscretion, but so did several other individuals. Heck, I'm sure they would have killed me if they knew that I might have been the cause. Back then, there were way fewer American smokers, so most tobacconists' business was their local market. The US was just too hard to ship to on a regular basis.

Now all this happened more than 15 years ago, before all the cigar craze ever came into existence. Back then, you would call, place an order, give them your credit card informatin or mail them an American Express check, then wait for your package. Many of these vendors have remained in business over the years by not catering to US customers, but to their local regulars. While the US market is a very lucrative one, and always becons, these merchants know that it can be a hassle to keep their American customer happy. They'd prefer to stick to their basic business.

You know to this day, I still have not been able to re-establish my relationship with this particular vendor.

*Mo*: Dang!!

*Mr.G*: Yeah! Worst part, several months later I had package intercepted by customs that resulted in my paying a fine of several thousand dollars. I think all this was because of one guy, and I was the stupid one who introduced him to my Havana source.

*Mo*: That really sucks.

*Mr.G*: Now a days, you have the internet, dozens of dealers in just about as many countries, all promising to deliver you the best, latest, freshest, or most aged cigars in the world. So someone discovers a new dealer with great prices and aged inventory. They buy a few boxes, get all excited, tell their friend who then buy even more boxes, and it just keeps escalating from there. Pretty soon, there's enough noise that the US Customs Service catches wind of this and basically shuts down all importation from this operation. A few weeks or months later, there's another new and "relaible" dealer advertising on the internet and the whole cycle repeats again.

All these new guys just keep jumping from one seller to another always looking for the best price, best deal, newest thing. They just don't stick around to establish good rapport with their respective vendors. Believe me, in the long run that'll just hurt both you & me.

I gotta tell you Mo, buying Havanas and shipping them to the US is still an illegal activity and I dread what would happen if the government ever decided to fully enforce the law.

*Mo*: So that's why you like keeping a low profile.

*Mr G*: Mo, nobody knows what I buy or how much I have except me. Sure I've gifted cigars to friends and associates but I don't draw attention to the fact that they're Havanas.

Mo, I try to be VERY careful and discrete. Heck, I haven't had a seizure in over 8 1/2 years.

I tell anybody dying to buy Havanas that that activity is still illegal for a US citizen, and that it can have reprecussions. If they absolutely insist, then they should do so at their own risk. They can go ahead, but caution and discretion is how they should approach it. That would be my advice.
.
.
.
.

We sat & smoked a while. We shared a lot more information during our herfing, it was an enriching experience. Overall though, the impact of what he said still rings true and I thought I'd share the jist of it here.

I recall enjoying a most delicious Ramon Allones Gigantes while Mr. G smoked an unbanded churchill. His was definately a Havana, you could tell by the aroma . . . but just what kind of Havana, only he knew for sure. :w 
__________________


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## MoTheMan

pds said:


> So good it deserves stickiness!


Thanks Paul.
Glad to know that what I wrote carries relevance.


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## LeafHog

1f1fan said:


> Well done Mo.


DITTO!


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## KingMeatyHand

colgate said:


> Make your face to face acquaintances with both seller and cigar and figure out how to take it from there. If you don't travel, you shouldn't be in the game. Just my humble newbie opinion.


I guess I better throw away all the crap I bought from amazon.com

There are 2 main reasons based on self preservation why people are not going to give out sources. One is your not known and anyone not known is a potential Customs agent (or other authority). Two is that who the hell wants to give everyone their great sources? If you knew of a party that went on every weekend where there were 4, sex starved, beautiful women that would cook you breakfast after they satisfied you.. how many people would you invite to come along?

Finding a vendor is not some mystical path where you will be tested for purity of mind, body and soul. I assume everyone here knows how to use Google and has heard the term "if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is". Off you go grasshopper.

Did someone initially hook me up with some sources? Yep. After I had been here a little while, got burned on a fake box buy, bought my own abroad and didn't go around begging everyone for their cigar bookmarks. The squeaky wheel does not get the grease here (hopefully).

There are a lot of ways to show yourself on this board. Join the pif, get in on a box-split, try for a box pass when one comes up, play along with some cigar-prize contests, try to meet locals for a mini-herf. People will trust you if they've dealt with you before.


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## One Lonely Smoker

Yeah, I gave a great source to a guy from another site, and within weeks, this vendor could no longer ship express. Thanks Ahole.


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## Darb85

One more question maybe. I have a friend that lives in mexico that told me he would pick me up some cubans when he goes home next week. would it be over the line to post a question on the foroum for suggestions as i am new to cigars?


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## LasciviousXXX

Not at all...... feel free to ask questions. I think this is mainly aimed at people asking for Cuban Sources. 

Mostly all of the gorillas here are very generous with their knowledge. 

I myself would recommend Hoyo De Monterrey Epi #2 or maybe an Saint Luis Rey PC or maybe some Punch Punch. These have topped my list lately.


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## floydp

Well deserved sticky Mo.. Great job and some great replies. cheers


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## Darb85

Thanks for the quick answer just wanted to make sure that i wasnt stepping over the line.


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## Mr. White

Sounds like a good deal. I remember the days back in high school where we pretty much had the same situation going on.... (Takes a moment to stare off into space with a slight smile.) 

In any case, I'm older now, and until they become legal, I won't be buying cubans or asking for sources... But I do enjoy reading the forum. 

Being new to cigars gives me several hundred brands of domestics to get through first.


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## DsrtDog

To me it seems that one of the big trappings with the Havanas is that they are the "Forbidden Fruit". I have not had the pleasure of smoking a Cuban so I my just be blowing smoke though. One day I will be able to make that distinction myself....If they are half as good as they are written about it will be worth the journey


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## partagaspete

DsrtDog said:


> To me it seems that one of the big trappings with the Havanas is that they are the "Forbidden Fruit". I have not had the pleasure of smoking a Cuban so I my just be blowing smoke though. One day I will be able to make that distinction myself....If they are half as good as they are written about it will be worth the journey


I thought it was more the fact that it was "a cuban" more than anything else. Until I had some some cigars just take you to the next level. Kinda of like Cigar Zen.

To all you ISOM virgins....Be very careful of the slippery slope!

T


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## IHT

DsrtDog said:


> To me it seems that one of the big trappings with the Havanas is that they are the "Forbidden Fruit". I have not had the pleasure of smoking a Cuban so I my just be blowing smoke though. One day I will be able to make that distinction myself....If they are half as good as they are written about it will be worth the journey


you need to read the topic by D. Generate on here about helping him out with his 1st cuban cigar... read the 2nd page when he writes his reviews....

uh.. it's not hype.


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## DsrtDog

IHT said:


> you need to read the topic by D. Generate on here about helping him out with his 1st cuban cigar... read the 2nd page when he writes his reviews....
> 
> uh.. it's not hype.


I agree that they are the mark cigars are measured against and that I have been told they are far and away better than the rest of the market. I am just wondering if there are any non cubans that are at that level?

When I do lose my ISOM virginity, I will be sure to let you all know my humble thoughts. Right now it is like Christmas and I am a 4 year old who just cant sleep due to all of the anticipation.


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## IHT

DsrtDog said:


> I am just wondering if there are any non cubans that are at that level?


i kept my mouth shut on the topic in the world cigar lounge because they weren't talking about cuban cigars, they were asking about non-cubans that others felt "stood up to" cuban cigars.
i've had what many feel is the best of the best in regards to non-cubans, and there are a few that can come close, when they are ON, like the Opus X i had from '99. then the other 8 or so i've had now have not even come close, matter of fact, they've been downright crappy. the high end padrons i've had have not come close either... the 1926 i had was so harsh, i was amazed that people paid that much for those things. i did like the 1964s though, but not enough to pay that much for them when i can get better tasting cuban cigars at nearly half to 3/4 the price.

are there a few that come close? 
flavor? no, not to me.
construction? yes, some exceed it. a lot of people say they have a lot of problems with tight draws in cubans, but i have had equal to or greater than with non-cubans as i do with cubans (the only cuban i've had consistant draw problems with has been the H.Upmann Mag46 - but i haven't had as many cubans as a lot of people on here who don't speak up enough).
do they burn as well as cubans? not that i've seen.

i don't think it's even close, but that's just me. non-cubans sure do look good, don't they? but to me, it could look like a polished dog-turd, but if it tastes good, that's all that matters.

these are just my opinions though. i still smoke domestics from time to time...


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## DsrtDog

IHT said:


> i kept my mouth shut on the topic in the world cigar lounge because they weren't talking about cuban cigars, they were asking about non-cubans that others felt "stood up to" cuban cigars.
> i've had what many feel is the best of the best in regards to non-cubans, and there are a few that can come close, when they are ON, like the Opus X i had from '99. then the other 8 or so i've had now have not even come close, matter of fact, they've been downright crappy. the high end padrons i've had have not come close either... the 1926 i had was so harsh, i was amazed that people paid that much for those things. i did like the 1964s though, but not enough to pay that much for them when i can get better tasting cuban cigars at nearly half to 3/4 the price.
> 
> are there a few that come close?
> flavor? no, not to me.
> construction? yes, some exceed it. a lot of people say they have a lot of problems with tight draws in cubans, but i have had equal to or greater than with non-cubans as i do with cubans (the only cuban i've had consistant draw problems with has been the H.Upmann Mag46 - but i haven't had as many cubans as a lot of people on here who don't speak up enough).
> do they burn as well as cubans? not that i've seen.
> 
> i don't think it's even close, but that's just me. non-cubans sure do look good, don't they? but to me, it could look like a polished dog-turd, but if it tastes good, that's all that matters.
> 
> these are just my opinions though. i still smoke domestics from time to time...


Thanks IHT...I will continue in my journey of the leaf and I am sure someday I will have enough background and experiences to make the same call...


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## IHT

you will in no time. i'm still a newbie as well...


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## poker

Well put Mo.

In a nutshell, the responsibility is two fold. It falls both on the newbie & the veteran here at CS.

For the Newbie:
1: Simply dont ask in a PM unless you been around here a while or a few hundred posts that actually *contribute* something to CS & have gotten to know its members.

2: Dont ask unless item 1 has been met* AND* you are willing to take the chance on recieving a letter of seizure from the US Treasury instead of your cigars.
True, many places will guarantee delivery, but can they stop the US Treasury/US Customs from knowing who you are & where you live now that they seized a package with goods with your name & address on it? Nope.

For the Veterans:
1: You should know better than to openly discuss sources if the question is posted on an open forum. If posted in a private message to you, it up to you whether to disclose info or not.

Dont make the veteran here at CS feel he has to make a decision on whether he should or shouldnt answer. Most all of the vets here want to make the new guy feel at home, but to many, asking for a personal valued source is not a good way to start off.

Just my 2 cents....


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## Nely

What Mo has said here makes a lot of sense. However, what does not make sense to me is that while we are trying to keep the sources a guarded secret, the online sources advertize in our retailers section all the time. Isn't it contradicting? I guess the work of an investigating custom officer is not that hard after all. All he's got to do is go online and type in google "Cuban cigars" Find out that the business ships to the US and that's all.


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## WillyGT

Nely said:


> What Mo has said here makes a lot of sense. However, what does not make sense to me is that while we are trying to keep the sources a guarded secret, the online sources advertize in our retailers section all the time. Isn't it contradicting? I guess the work of an investigating custom officer is not that hard after all. All he's got to do is go online and type in google "Cuban cigars" Find out that the business ships to the US and that's all.


Yes but the problem on telling YOUR cuban sources is that is more likely that they are discovered and they wont be able to continue providing you service. So the problem i guess is more on losing Trusty sources than the fact that the sources are being discused. .


----------



## One Lonely Smoker

Willy hit it on the head, and so did the poster before him. Sure, there are vendors advertising right here at home, and if you feel froggy, then jump. What i will always keep close to the vest is my _money guy_. He is the one person in this world that knows me, my CC#, my likes and dislikes, and who provides a service I both trust and can count on. While many people would freely give out the name of someone they no longer use, but trust the products of, very few will just give up their money guy. Whether he advertises here or not. Don't kill the goose that lays the golden perfectos. It's not that I don't want to help YOU, I just don't want to HURT me doing it.


----------



## Brandon

Nely said:


> What Mo has said here makes a lot of sense. However, what does not make sense to me is that while we are trying to keep the sources a guarded secret, the online sources advertize in our retailers section all the time.


The advertisers are here because the internet is not limited to U.S. persons.


----------



## txmatt

*TXMatt's Sources For Cuban Cigars RANT*

Mo excellent post! I really appreciate your points.
_apologies to BOTLs here I may offend; you are all great even though I disagree with your opinions; mine are no more valid than any of yours._
[Rant On]
[ :sb ]
There are reasons newbies get excited and are desparate to try this forbidden fruit for themselves. There are people on this and every internet cigar board who tote Cuban cigars as being a Eutopian bundle of tobacco leaves and this leads new BOTLs to seek this orgasmic smoking experience. All too frequently I read posts that claim $4 - $6 Cubans will beat an $8 PAM hands down. These comparisons always quote the by the box untaxed mail order prices and compare them to a taxed, single stick price on the "domestics". Even the word used "domestic" adds negative connotations; likening a premium Dominican, Honduran, Nicaraguan, Costa Rican, Mexican, Jamaican, etc cigar to the machine made drug store variety. If its a Topper go ahead an call it a domestic by all means. The more elite and magical you build your Cuban only smoking preferences to be, the more newbies are going to PM you asking how they can join this exclusive club.

I openly admit I haven't smoked many Cubans in the 13 years I have been smoking cigars. I also admit to smoking cheap cigars more often than premiums so maybe my palate is just inferior to the Habanophiles. IMHO many people start smoking Cubans out of a need to be elite; the person in Mo's story that ruined the source was definitely such a person. That said, I stand by my post in the world cigar lounge listing 19 cigars I would take over any Cuban cigar I have had to date.

If you feel it could be just TXMatt's el cheapo palate, please also consider this; the most most experienced and most highly respected people on this board discuss the merits of both Cuban and Non-Cuban cigars. Since you started this topic Mo, I am gonna single you out; we have all seen and drooled over your closet-a-dor. It goes without saying you can smoke what you want and you choose to smoke both Cuban and legal cigars. Mo it is your ability to discuss the merits of both legal and Cuban cigars that I respect so much and why I am always certain to read a topic you start. Unfortunately I suspect this is why you get such frequent PMs for information. Let me single out a few other fine BOTLs: SeanGar, kamikaiguy, MattR, Da Klugs, Galaga, El Rey del Mundo (who smokes em legally), MocoBird, LasciviousXXX..... the list goes on; these people write reviews on the enjoyment of both. Kansas Hat has in the neighborhood of 2000 cigars and I have never read a post by him concerning Cubans. (I could have missed it though).

I am going to tell everyone my source for Cubans, so listen up newbies: BOTLs!! I have never asked for a Cuban cigar, I have never bought Cubans; but I had at least 3 dozen shipped to me last year (of which I have 1/3 left). Do your best to be involved in the board and you will find Cuban cigars growing in your mailbox as well. After you have been around a while, join passes and make trades. (It is very bad form in a pass to take a Cuban and replace it with a Non-Cuban so don't do that ) You will make aquaintances who will become friends. Once you have an ongoing friendship with one of the hundreds of great BOTLs on this board, then would be a proper time to inquire into their sources if you find Cuban cigars to be as supernatural as some people do. Don't be offended however if they don't share it.

[/rant] [ / :sb ]

I want to again stress I value everyone here and their contributions; even those who do post about the magical properties of Vuelta Abajo dirt.

-Matt-


----------



## Nely

WillyGT said:


> Yes but the problem on telling YOUR cuban sources is that is more likely that they are discovered and they wont be able to continue providing you service. So the problem i guess is more on losing Trusty sources than the fact that the sources are being discused. .


The Cuban cigar market in the US is huge, as well as their profit margin. We will always have companies trying to smuggle cubans to the US. If one goes down there will be another to take it's place and pick up on it's customers.
Cuban cigars will always find it's way to the US, period.


----------



## coppertop

*Re: TXMatt's Sources For Cuban Cigars RANT*



> There are reasons newbies get excited and are desparate to try this forbidden fruit for themselves. There are people on this and every internet cigar board who tote Cuban cigars as being a Eutopian bundle of tobacco leaves and this leads new BOTLs to seek this orgasmic smoking experience. All too frequently I read posts that claim $4 - $6 Cubans will beat an $8 PAM hands down. These comparisons always quote the by the box untaxed mail order prices and compare them to a taxed, single stick price on the "domestics". Even the word used "domestic" adds negative connotations; likening a premium Dominican, Honduran, Nicaraguan, Costa Rican, Mexican, Jamaican, etc cigar to the machine made drug store variety. If its a Topper go ahead an call it a domestic by all means. The more elite and magical you build your Cuban only smoking preferences to be, the more newbies are going to PM you asking how they can join this exclusive club.
> 
> I openly admit I haven't smoked many Cubans in the 13 years I have been smoking cigars. I also admit to smoking cheap cigars more often than premiums so maybe my palate is just inferior to the Habanophiles. IMHO many people start smoking Cubans out of a need to be elite; the person in Mo's story that ruined the source was definitely such a person. That said, I stand by my post in the world cigar lounge listing 19 cigars I would take over any Cuban cigar I have had to date.
> 
> If you feel it could be just TXMatt's el cheapo palate, please also consider this; the most most experienced and most highly respected people on this board discuss the merits of both Cuban and Non-Cuban cigars. Since you started this topic Mo, I am gonna single you out; we have all seen and drooled over your closet-a-dor. It goes without saying you can smoke what you want and you choose to smoke both Cuban and legal cigars. Mo it is your ability to discuss the merits of both legal and Cuban cigars that I respect so much and why I am always certain to read a topic you start. Unfortunately I suspect this is why you get such frequent PMs for information. Let me single out a few other fine BOTLs: SeanGar, kamikaiguy, MattR, Da Klugs, Galaga, El Rey del Mundo (who smokes em legally), MocoBird, LasciviousXXX..... the list goes on;
> 
> -Matt-


But I like being an elitest............ :fu

As for your comments, all I can say is that I don't smoke Cubans because I want to be an elitist, I smoke them because IMHO they are the cream of the crop. Why smoke a Punch RC when I can smoke a Punch Punch. Or a Partagas Black when I can have a PSD4 or Party Short. I have smoked the best of the best for domestics. And besides that 5 yr old Opus X and the 64 PAM none came close to the experience of a Cuban. That being said, I still smoke Domestics. I have, right now in my humidor a couple LGC Serie R.....big mofo too, 2 1964 PAMs. And a few others. I don't keep a lot on hand, but I do have them. As for the prices of PAMs or other top end domestics and paying taxes on them, sorry. I pay shipping sometimes  But I've been to my local tobacconist and paid top dollar for PAMs and Opus X. So I've done it, but I won't buy a box of either, because I can't seeing paying that much for domestics.......


----------



## WillyGT

Nely said:


> The Cuban cigar market in the US is huge, as well as their profit margin. We will always have companies trying to smuggle cubans to the US. If one goes down there will be another to take it's place and pick up on it's customers.
> Cuban cigars will always find it's way to the US, period.


yes, you are definetly right. Only thing i was trying to point out is why, even if there are links to sellers in here, the ones the elder gorillas are trying to protect are their personal sources. so they dont get affected. Besides as Brandon and OLS said, those vendors are not directly intended to US customers but to Every customer in the world (Europe, Asia, or Mexico like me  ). 
But of course there will always be smugglers of Havannas, but not all of them are trustworthy.


----------



## (909)

Funny how this subject gets recycled from time to time. It's almost like you need to sign a waiver before you become a member.


----------



## poker

Agreed 909. Its appropriate then for me to cut & paste a post I made last year that may also contain info some may find usefull....

*snip*

_Once upon a time long long ago, there was this source, and oh what a great source it twas. People started posting about this place upon unsecured message boards. Not long after, shipment after shipment after shipment started getting plucked by US Customs. The same people that were expecting boxes of Havanas finest got letters of seizure instead. In trying to make right of this bad situation, this vendor refunded folks, and after that, refused shipments to the USA to this very day.

The actions of a few (who posted the source, shipping information, etc) ruined this very good source for everyone. While many may beg to differ, I know a gentelman personally who is recently retired from US Customs. For those that think they dont skim thru public boards, think again....they do.

On the question on why some vendors openly post? Well, thats their choice to do so, not ours. Virtually all my sources (some of whom I consider very good friends) neither post or advertise at all on any board. Its their choice not to & I will respect that by not reveiling them openly on any board.
Two of them dont even have a website.

I posted a simular answer a long time ago on another board to a simular question. Chances are, nothing may happen & nobody gets their cigars seized if a source is openly discussed in an open forum. But....
...when you have a $xxxx.00 order about to be placed would you risk it? Why tempt fate and chance on increasing the risk? 
Remember, its not legal if you are in the USA for now. Never forget that simple fact.

Just my $0.02 cents_
*snip*


----------



## MoTheMan

*Re: TXMatt's Sources For Cuban Cigars RANT*



txmatt said:


> If you feel it could be just TXMatt's el cheapo palate, please also consider this; the most most experienced and most highly respected people on this board discuss the merits of both Cuban and Non-Cuban cigars. Since you started this topic Mo, I am gonna single you out; we have all seen and drooled over your closet-a-dor. It goes without saying you can smoke what you want and you choose to smoke both Cuban and legal cigars. Mo it is your ability to discuss the merits of both legal and Cuban cigars that I respect so much and why I am always certain to read a topic you start. Unfortunately I suspect this is why you get such frequent PMs for information. Let me single out a few other fine BOTLs: SeanGar, kamikaiguy, MattR, Da Klugs, Galaga, El Rey del Mundo (who smokes em legally), MocoBird, LasciviousXXX..... the list goes on; these people write reviews on the enjoyment of both. Kansas Hat has in the neighborhood of 2000 cigars and I have never read a post by him concerning Cubans. (I could have missed it though).
> 
> I am going to tell everyone my source for Cubans, so listen up newbies: BOTLs!! I have never asked for a Cuban cigar, I have never bought Cubans; but I had at least 3 dozen shipped to me last year (of which I have 1/3 left). Do your best to be involved in the board and you will find Cuban cigars growing in your mailbox as well. After you have been around a while, join passes and make trades. (It is very bad form in a pass to take a Cuban and replace it with a Non-Cuban so don't do that ) You will make aquaintances who will become friends. Once you have an ongoing friendship with one of the hundreds of great BOTLs on this board, then would be a proper time to inquire into their sources if you find Cuban cigars to be as supernatural as some people do. Don't be offended however if they don't share it.
> 
> [/rant] [ / :sb ]
> 
> I want to again stress I value everyone here and their contributions; even those who do post about the magical properties of Vuelta Abajo dirt.
> 
> -Matt-


txmatt,
You're so on with these two points. To me smoking cigars is about being a true lover of the leaf. Granted that I like the richness of the Cuban taste, I sometimes find myslf in the mood for a good domestic, and it doesn't have to be a super premium domestic one.

As for the second point, I guess many people still haven't figured it out yet, but that's the main reason I bomb prople. It's to share the bond between brothers and sisters of the leaf; to turn them on to a new level of experience and tastes. If you've read some of the posts & tastings, then you know that I've bombed with domestics just as often, if not more often, than just ISOM's.
_________________________________________________________________



Nely said:


> Isn't it contradicting? I guess the work of an investigating custom officer is not that hard after all. All he's got to do is go online and type in google "Cuban cigars" Find out that the business ships to the US and that's all.


Nely, 
I always considered the US Customs work as safeguarding this country. It's not just to enforce legal acts (embargoes), but to protect & safeguars the country against terrorism/weapons, tainted foods (i.e. meats & fruits), impure chemicals (pharmaceuticals, chemical reagents), pirated products (this list is endless), and not to mention generating revenue by levying duties.

As with any organization, recognition and career advancement comes with achieving quotas (and it all depends on what quotas were used as a measuring stick). A single US customs agent, or a department for that matter isn't about to scour the internet fishing for sellers of Cuban cigars in the hope of stopping about a dozen boxes in the next three months. That just isn't a sufficient use of human resources, especially when there's greater work needed elsewhere. On the other hand if people on a discussion board board are blatantly discussing sources of Cuban cigars, well, what can I say, that's just making an agent's or a department's job just too easy. In a matter of a few weeks they can confiscate a couple of hundred boxes . . . and that my friends is called hitting pay dirt. They're on the look out more for a smuggling ring, or a running trail. The bigger the bucks involved, the better a job they've done.
_________________________________________________________________

What Poker stated here,


poker said:


> _On the question on why some vendors openly post? Well, thats their choice to do so, not ours. Virtually all my sources (some of whom I consider very good friends) neither post or advertise at all on any board. Its their choice not to & I will respect that by not reveiling them openly on any board.
> Two of them dont even have a website._


 . . . and what I tried to hint at here


MoTheMan said:


> Now all this happened more than 15 years ago, before all the cigar craze ever came into existence. Back then, you would call, place an order, give them your credit card informatin or mail them an American Express check, then wait for your package. Many of these vendors have remained in business over the years by not catering to US customers, but to their local regulars. While the US market is a very lucrative one, and always becons, these merchants know that it can be a hassle to keep their American customer happy. They'd prefer to stick to their basic business.


 . . . is that there are many good reliable vendors of fine Havanas worldwide.

Many of these well established vendors can even get their hands on hard to find editions, discontinued lines, and special humidors. Some of these merchants aren't even giants in their field but have been in their business for a long time and have a very good standing reputation. That's why they've been able to do what they do. They have grown and established their customer base one step at a time, and usually by appealing to their local market (i.e. if you ever go to Geneva, check out Rafi Cigars, a small & little known mercdhant; they may carry small inventories, but they treat you, their customer, like gold, and most of the non-cigar merchants in the area know who they are, and heck, they'll help you find their store).

Like I said before, and others have mentioned on this thread, the US is a huge and potentially lucrative market, it appeals to a number of merchants who want to try and establish customers in it. Hence, a major reason for the hype. "Ooohh, you can get cuban cigars!!" Too bad that most SOB's get caught up in this fever; I know I did when I first got into cigars. I've seen it happen here (I've been guilty of it) at CS as well as on other boards (where flame the opponent and super snob policies exist).

Just to remind everyone again, Buying and importing Cuban products into the US, whether they be cigars, rum, coffee, art pieces, or whatever *is* *illegal* and subjects the individual doing it to fines and/or imprisonment.

Well, that is all for now. Have a pleasant herf everyone.  :w


----------



## MoTheMan

Here's a comment I received today from a fellow LLG whom I have herfed with.

*"Excelent Post. Glad someone posted this. I too got a few PMs from new guys, and I don't have cubans, go figure."*


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## Da Klugs

I think our enthusiasm gets the best of even the best of us.


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## RcktS4

Wow. Four year old post. Must have taken some searching to find that.

Not to be a jerk, but I took the point of Mo's post to be explaining the reasons for current policy and attitudes. The story he told explained a current viewpoint based on some hard-learned lessons from past dealings, and maybe we should all take them into account. I'm not sure why digging up such an old example is helpful...

Just my opinion... and I know what THAT's worth.

Pax


----------



## SeanGAR

RcktS4 said:


> Four year old post - You were really diggin', huh?


Ain't "search" grand?

Best place to get cubans in the US is from "Steel" in Miami. You can find him most days on South Beach. You'll recognize him as the only Cubano there with no bling. Why he is bling-free is a long story, but I'll boil it down to him removing his bling on the swim over to Miami. Otherwise he would have drowned - he has been afraid of bling ever since.

You see, Steel is brother of Hyde, who works in the Partagas factory sweeping floors. Hyde is sleeping with Cella, who is a roller at Partagas. So the best Cubans come from Steel, Hyde and Cella.



> ....importing Cuban products into the US, whether they be cigars, rum, coffee, art pieces, or whatever is illegal and subjects the individual doing it to fines and/or imprisonment.


Only exception is people. You import a bunch of Cubans to the US and they get their feet dry, they're staying.


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## Da Klugs

RcktS4 said:


> Wow. Four year old post. Must have taken some searching to find that.
> 
> Not to be a jerk, but I took the point of Mo's post to be explaining the reasons for current policy and attitudes. The story he told explained a current viewpoint based on some hard-learned lessons from past dealings, and maybe we should all take them into account. I'm not sure why digging up such an old example is helpful...
> 
> Just my opinion... and I know what THAT's worth.
> 
> Pax


Nahh wrote a review on the Mag 46 yesterday just stumbled on it when deciding which thread to post in. I think this thread has been excellent and should be a must read for all, and I know it has had an influence on my behavior wish it had been here 2 weeks ago. Mean't to lighten this up with a little perspective on the fact that we are all newbies sometime. Probably in poor taste. Sorry PDS.


----------



## Brandon

Even at that time, many of us already knew each other personally. A lot of folks communicate off of the boards. Just because a question is asked publically, doesn't mean that it needs to be answered publically. Many folks need to learn to carry on their conversations by using PM's, sending emails, or picking up a phone.


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## SeanGAR

Got a package with this on it today.....

Kinda interesting how much interest they took in some mangos.....

Lest we forget out tax dollars at work....


----------



## hollywood

i thought they all just came from the cigar faries!?! right?
 

everybody and their brother wants to know !! if anyone has ever had a cigar, they know about cuba.

if you can find one or two people in your lifetime to help you experience these remarkable creations; feel blessed. it doesn't happen to everyone. however, there are always going to be those willing to share; there just isn't enough of us to go around. but we DO exist. :w


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## IHT

Brandon said:


> A lot of folks communicate off of the boards. Just because a question is asked publically, doesn't mean that it needs to be answered publically. Many folks need to learn to carry on their conversations by using PM's, sending emails, or picking up a phone.


and if my wife knew the reason my why my calling cards in Korea went by so fast, and i barely talked to her, i'd be dead!!


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## Lamar

Thanks MO! This is certainly seminal discussion that in my opinion has to become part of the DNA of Club Stogie. Perhaps it needs to be a part of the welcome kit to first time posters on this board.


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## DsrtDog

This has been a very interesting thread. I personally enjoy the Journey of learning about cigars and all the differences there are when I walk into a local shop. I would preffer to listen and learn from those that have been exposed to things I have not. I think that all new Cigar Smokers (myself included) want to experience as much as possible. My main hope is to meet people I can learn from and hopefully have the opportunity to pass it forward some day.

To all the Gorillas here I think we newbies all would like to say (me at least) please forgive our eargerness to play with the bigboys since we only in most cases want to be excepted and learn from those we have an opportunity to learn from.

There's my 2 pennies...


----------



## Mr. White

I have a question... What if we come across a dealer but are not sure if they're reputable or not. Is asking another member about a dealer's rep a bad thing?


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## IHT

Jokieman said:


> I have a question... What if we come across a dealer but are not sure if they're reputable or not. Is asking another member about a dealer's rep a bad thing?


no, that would be the preferred way to do it if the person has been here long enough, via PM.


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## floydp

Has there been any mention of this thread being in the Hall of Fame?


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## IHT

if it moves to the hall of fame, then the people who NEED to read it most won't see it. it should stay here, where it's most relevant.


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## floydp

IHT said:


> if it moves to the hall of fame, then the people who NEED to read it most won't see it. it should stay here, where it's most relevant.


Makes sense, okie dokie.


----------



## icehog3

SeanGAR said:


> You see, Steel is brother of Hyde, who works in the Partagas factory sweeping floors. Hyde is sleeping with Cella, who is a roller at Partagas. So the best Cubans come from Steel, Hyde and Cella.


Closely related to Dewey, Cheatum and Howe? Nyuk Nyuk


----------



## MiamiE

so basically should i decide to purchase a box of Punch Punch from xxxx xx xxxxxxxx in Canada im subject to the US Govt. seizing my cigars, losing my money, and facing imprisonment and a fine. correct? its basically; hope to not get caught when buying from Canada.


----------



## IHT

miamiE, if you haven't read the GUIDELINES that were a sticky subject above where you posted your "newbie intro", you should check them out. and then, for giggles, you could click the link in my signature line, where it says, "CLICK HERE!!"
-------
<sarcasm>
anyway - to answer your question with a question. since buying cuban cigars is illegal and i have never had a cuban cigar, or ordered cuban cigars, or even seen/smelled them before (because it's illegal), i can only say that you should receive fines/punishment if you do get caught trying to smuggled banned goods into the country.

i'm sure you've forgotten to use your turn signal a few times, that's against the law too. how often do you get pulled over for that? or tailgating someone? or a "slow-n-go"? speeding is also against the law.

yes, if YOU were to try to break the law, and got caught, you should expect to get penalized somehow. since i don't do any of that stuff and am a good-two-shoes, i'll never have that problem.

and cuban cigars are all hype anyway.
</sarcasm>


----------



## MiamiE

thanks for the reply BUT, i DID NOT ask how to buy Cubans in the United States. i did use the search and could not find anything DIRECTLY related to my question about purchasing from Canada. i do enjoy myself and everyone elses help!  what i will assume from your reply is that the topic of cuban cigars is a taboo one here, because of the govt. concerns. i will steer away from these kinds of questions in the future.


----------



## poker

ok, time for me to step up here. I agree without question that you did not ask how to buy Cuban cigars. 
I did however edit your post that mentions a valid retailer by name in a hypothetical situation in your post.
Aside from Pauls 3 general rules of Club Stogie, I have a rules myself about this forum in general.

1) Thou shalt not reveal names of sources in this forum.
2) Thou shalt not reveal methods of shipping from any particular country in this forum.
3) Thou shalt not try to circumvent rule 1 or 2

Other than that Im pretty laid back


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## MiamiE

ahhh ok i propose the rules be 'ammended' :tg


----------



## IHT

okay, miami.


MiamiE said:


> thanks for the reply BUT, i DID NOT ask how to buy Cubans in the United States.


but


MiamiE said:


> so basically should i decide to purchase a box of Punch Punch from xxxx xx xxxxxxxx in Canada im subject to the US Govt. seizing my cigars, losing my money, and facing imprisonment and a fine. correct? its basically; hope to not get caught when buying from Canada.


no, you didn't ask HOW to, and i didn't answer HOW to. you asked that if you were to break the law, and you got caught, would you get in trouble (which led to my sarcastic remark about bad drivers who don't use their turn signals, speed, slow-n-go, tailgaters, etc).


IHT said:


> yes, if YOU were to try to break the law, and got caught, you should expect to get penalized somehow.


----------



## coppertop

MiamiE said:


> ahhh ok i propose the rules be 'ammended' :tg


Just a personal observation....but has anyone else noticed that some, only some, of the newbys here lack a certian respect for the FOGs around here. Joking or not....I feel that was out of line. I think, make that, I know poker deserves more respect then that. Thats a great way to get on someones good side.....hope you don't need any real help in the future, all you might get is a :tg


----------



## SeanGAR

coppertop said:


> Just a personal observation....but has anyone else noticed that some, only some, of the newbys here lack a certian respect for the FOGs around here. Joking or not....I feel that was out of line. I think, make that, I know poker deserves more respect then that. Thats a great way to get on someones good side.....hope you don't need any real help in the future, all you might get is a :tg


Well said CT.

More notes to noobs:

1 - certain gorillas here have EARNED immense respect by their generosity, knowledge and willingness to share. Poker is one of those guys. You'd be better off reading a lot and understanding this simple fact before posting.

2 - when you first come here you are visiting this playground. You don't know who PDS is, you don't know who Poker is, you don't know Mo's cat's name, you don't know the rules concerning Cubans or their sourcing I suggest you READ, READ, READ.

Sean


----------



## Wetterhorn

SeanGAR said:


> Well said CT.
> 
> More notes to noobs:
> 
> 1 - certain gorillas here have EARNED immense respect by their generosity, knowledge and willingness to share. Poker is one of those guys. You'd be better off reading a lot and understanding this simple fact before posting.
> 
> 2 - when you first come here you are visiting this playground. You don't know who PDS is, you don't know who Poker is, you don't know Mo's cat's name, you don't know the rules concerning Cubans or their sourcing I suggest you READ, READ, READ.
> 
> Sean


Well said, Sean!

If you don't know Mo's cat's name, you really haven't been around the block, now have you? 

It comes down to simple respect - like the golden rule says, "do unto others as you would have them do to you."

I have enjoyed getting to know so many of the LLGs here and taking the time to get to know them and being kind and respectful is the key.


----------



## Churchlady

Wait, wait, I think I know poker's cat's favorite cigar and what car mo drives... do I win a prize????  how bout some cubans?


Good advice from some great gorillas...


----------



## Nely

I agree with coppertop.


----------



## coppertop

SeanGAR said:


> Well said CT.
> 
> More notes to noobs:
> 
> 1 - certain gorillas here have EARNED immense respect by their generosity, knowledge and willingness to share. Poker is one of those guys. You'd be better off reading a lot and understanding this simple fact before posting.
> 
> 2 - when you first come here you are visiting this playground. You don't know who PDS is, you don't know who Poker is, you don't know Mo's cat's name, you don't know the rules concerning Cubans or their sourcing I suggest you READ, READ, READ.
> 
> Sean


more good advice..........


----------



## LasciviousXXX

Always respect your elders..... they have forgotten far more than I'll ever know. 

Technically I'm still a newb too, you just got to take it easy and heed the advice that the elders give you..... hell those guys are smoking stuff I've never even heard of

Great advice by all..... Thanx Coppertop


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## IHT

since we're giving advice now...

1. don't use a credit card to buy your smokes. use a seperate account that has a debit card (that can be used as a credit card). that way you only spend what you have. 

   :tpd:


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## MiamiE

i shared conversation with poker last night. no resentment was sensed at all. thanks for the advice though coppertop.


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## SeanGAR

IHT said:


> since we're giving advice now...
> 
> 1. don't use a credit card to buy your smokes. use a seperate account that has a debit card (that can be used as a credit card). that way you only spend what you have.
> 
> :tpd:


Oh this is good advice indeed. ...right up there with *DO NOT TYPE CIGARBID.COM*, ever ...... you simply don't want to know what goes on there.....


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## txmatt

SeanGAR said:


> Oh this is good advice indeed. ...right up there with *DO NOT TYPE CIGARBID.COM*, ever ...... you simply don't want to know what goes on there.....


Very very good advice SeanGAR! People should also not click links like

*This Link* 
* this other link* 
*and especially this link *



-Matt-


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## LeafHog

txmatt said:


> Very very good advice SeanGAR! People should also not click links like
> 
> *This Link*
> * this other link*
> *and especially this link *
> 
> -Matt-


 :r @ Matt. You're a bad, bad boy!


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## Mopartoya

SeanGAR said:


> Oh this is good advice indeed. ...right up there with *DO NOT TYPE CIGARBID.COM*, ever ...... you simply don't want to know what goes on there.....


O.K. Noobs, these guys are right! I'm a Noobie also. Listen to all advice given. Specially the part about WWW.CIGARBID.COM! It's veddy veddy dangerous. I had to learn the hard way. Yeah, you know it, I gave them my CC# also. Didn't start bank account as suggested. I'm sure its just a matter of time before my C.C. is all maxed out. I've already got a 5 pack of Monte Cristos on the way.

WWW.CIGARBID.COM = DANGER :hn

So, to all, Happy bidding, and

Cheers :al


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## coppertop

txmatt said:


> Very very good advice SeanGAR! People should also not click links like
> 
> *This Link*
> * this other link*
> *and especially this link *
> 
> 
> 
> -Matt-


Damn you Matt....I clicked all three just to see what you had linked.....luckily I didn't go any further. :tg  :c


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## SeanGAR

coppertop said:


> Damn you Matt....I clicked all three just to see what you had linked.....luckily I didn't go any further. :tg  :c


The sad thing is that I'm out of Cusano C10s.......


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## partagaspete

I wanted this back up top because I too am starting t get these PM's.


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## Guest

So does this mean you won't share sources with us?

I'm also a newbie and was wondering.


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## MoTheMan

mneadle said:


> So does this mean you won't share sources with us?
> 
> I'm also a newbie and was wondering.


Welcome to CS!! 

Did you read the WHOLE thread?!


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## poker

This mneadle from CF? If so, long time no see!


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## Matt R

Something tells me mneadle doesn't need another source. LMAO!


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## MoTheMan

Hmm! 




Oh, I get it!! :r :r


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## The Prince

mneadle said:


> So does this mean you won't share sources with us?
> 
> I'm also a newbie and was wondering.


LMAO.


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## Da Klugs

The Prince said:


> LMAO.


Newbies here need to read this thread.


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## Brandon

mneadle said:


> So does this mean you won't share sources with us?
> 
> I'm also a newbie and was wondering.


Tell us... what type of warm greeting would you present to someone asking for sources on CF?


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## MoTheMan

Brandon said:


> Tell us... what type of warm greeting would you present to someone asking for sources on CF?


 :r :r


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## MiamiE

hey Mo your an elder i still dont know where the best place to buy cuban cigars is, could you PLEASE give me your vendor!!  :r :tg


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## SeanGAR

mneadle said:


> So does this mean you won't share sources with us?
> 
> I'm also a newbie and was wondering.


Not at all.....

Dig in....

http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showthread.php?t=9975&highlight=horror


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## MiamiE

mneadle read back and learn from my mistakes.


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## Brandon

Guys... Mneadle isn't new to cigars. He's one of the newly signed-up members (long time member of CF) since the CF vs. CS fiasco.


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## altbier

There is a post around here with a guy from Canada selling some cubans. He just got back from Cuba and had all the labels and everything to prove they were real!

Just spend some time in the archives, I think he posted last month!


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## partagaspete

Brandon please explain this line:

"...since the CF vs. CS fiasco"

Thanks,

T


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## SeanGAR

partagaspete said:


> Brandon please explain....


Once upon a time, in a land far, far away there lived two groups of cigar smoking primates. One family lived on the plains, they were the baboons. The other family dwelled in the jungle. This jungle family was a happy family, and the gorillas, chimps and spider monkeys in the family got along well. Food was plentiful, they liked to share, and they were a happy bunch. The baboons were not happy however. Life on the plains was tough, with lions often eating them and spitting out their bones. Their favorite passtimes were backbiting, to remove parasites, and playing with their feces. From time to time they would invade the jungle, throwing feces at the inhabitants, and then with howls, hoots and chatters, they would run back to their holes, that they called home, and giggle about their brave feces-throwing exploits. Inhabitants of the jungle would scratch their heads and shrug it off as a reminder of how much better it is to live in the jungle than on the plain.


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## (909)

Very nice explanation. I think that sums things up very clearly.


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## clovis

SeanGAR...
I did not know much about the "fiasco"...
However, I must say your presentation of the events was great. Metaphor, simile, analogy... whatever the heck (I ain't no English Lit. type...more the science type), your story made me laugh. 
Learning plus entertainment, what more could one want here at CS?


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## partagaspete

SeanGAR said:


> Once upon a time, in a land far, far away there lived two groups of cigar smoking primates. One family lived on the plains, they were the baboons. The other family dwelled in the jungle. This jungle family was a happy family, and the gorillas, chimps and spider monkeys in the family got along well. Food was plentiful, they liked to share, and they were a happy bunch. The baboons were not happy however. Life on the plains was tough, with lions often eating them and spitting out their bones. Their favorite passtimes were backbiting, to remove parasites, and playing with their feces. From time to time they would invade the jungle, throwing feces at the inhabitants, and then with howls, hoots and chatters, they would run back to their holes, that they called home, and giggle about their brave feces-throwing exploits. Inhabitants of the jungle would scratch their heads and shrug it off as a reminder of how much better it is to live in the jungle than on the plain.


Thanks...I think I get it


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## paperfireman

Ok i know i will get flamed for this but can you buy a cuban in Europe and then bring it here? Or do you have to sneak it in?


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## coppertop

paperfireman said:


> Ok i know i will get flamed for this but can you buy a cuban in Europe and then bring it here? Or do you have to sneak it in?


It is illegal to bring Cubans into the states...so to answer your question....SNEAK


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## partagaspete

Basically we focus on the cigars because they are Cuba's main export. We (The US) has a complete trade embargo against Cuba. This means it is illegal to import any cuban products to the states.

The only exception I am aware as is for diplomats. Correct me if I am wrong guys.

T


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## LeafHog

coppertop said:


> It is illegal to bring Cubans into the states...so to answer your question....SNEAK


If I read the new restrictions right, it is also illegal for a US citizen to purchase any Cuban product in a foreign country.


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## croatan

LeafHog said:


> If I read the new restrictions right, it is also illegal for a US citizen to purchase any Cuban product in a foreign country.


That is correct.

Here's a link to An overview of the Cuban Assets Control Regulations


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## IHT

partagaspete said:


> The only exception I am aware as is for diplomats. Correct me if I am wrong guys.
> T


that has since been changed as of last August. not even "diplomats" are allowed that exemption (did a paper on it last year).


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## MoTheMan

IHT said:


> that has since been changed as of last August. not even "diplomats" are allowed that exemption (did a paper on it last year).


Yup! They've even cracked down on Diplomats (a lot of this because of 9-11 and the general conservative policies of the current government admin.). But, as a courtesy, they'll sometimes look the other way when someone waves a Diplomatic Passport on entering the US.


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## croatan

MoTheMan said:


> Yup! They've even cracked down on Diplomats (a lot of this because of 9-11 and the general conservative policies of the current government admin.). But, as a courtesy, they'll sometimes look the other way when someone waves a Diplomatic Passport on entering the US.


 And I guess sending cigars via diplomatic pouch might be an abuse of the office


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## woodrowr

altbier said:


> There is a post around here with a guy from Canada selling some cubans. He just got back from Cuba and had all the labels and everything to prove they were real!
> 
> Just spend some time in the archives, I think he posted last month!


If you're referring to me: it was more an inquiry about selling rather than trying to actually make a sale, and I have certainly learned my lesson. I have also learned quite a bit (here and on another - more Canadian - board) and met some aficiandos in person.

As of now: I'm still here. Still learning. Not selling. Big time on the "slippery slope". What started as an innocent question seems to be turning into an expensive hobby.


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## NCRadioMan

No woodrow, not you. Another canadian a few weeks before you signed up.


:ms NCRM


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## beekalt

I, too, am new to this board, but not new to posting. I'm a casual cigar smoker, 11 years now.

IMO there is always a certain interest in the "forbidden fruit" -- in this case Cuban sticks. I smoke Habanos, but not every day -- too expensive. I have boxes of Dominicans, Hondurans, mixes, etc., but that said, to me, there is nothing like a well rolled, fresh Cuban cigar for flavor, construction and smell. If you have smoked enough Cuban sticks, I think an educated palette can at least tell the difference between fakes and real Cubans. 

IMO, There is nothing in the Dominican Republic, (or any of the other tobacco producing countries) that tastes like a Cohiba Siglo VI....nothing..not even close..or a Bolivar Gigantes..or a Romeo y Julieta Exhibicion #4 or any others that I know of. There is simply no comparison. 

The Fuente family developed the Opus X. I have yet to smoke anything that tastes even remotely like an Opus X Double Corona (although I understand that because of pricing, fakes are beginning to show up). It is distinctive. House Habanos, S.A., smokes are distinctive.

IMO Cubans are expensive for several reasons: there is a big demand for them in the U.S., despite the fact they are illegal. Cuba raises the prices as often as they can. The demand for Habanos smokes usually outstrips the supply depending on the price and whether it is an LE (Limited Edition) or not.

This is just my opinion, to fellow posters in the lounge. 

beekalt


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## par

MoTheMan said:


> Yup! They've even cracked down on Diplomats (a lot of this because of 9-11 and the general conservative policies of the current government admin.). But, as a courtesy, they'll sometimes look the other way when someone waves a Diplomatic Passport on entering the US.


I'm curious, how can the customs search a acredited diplomat of a foreign nation? Article 41 of the vienna convention prohibits criminal prosecution by any ackredited diplomat. If a diplomat wants to smuggle marijuana there is very little that the US can do besides refusing entry to the US by declaring 'persona non grata'.

Perhaps there is a mixup between diplomatic passports and state department ackreditation? A Diplomatic passports doesn't give immunity from prosection in the US, only ackredited diplomats are immune from prosection in the US.

I was once in a car crash with someone who had a diplomatic passport and was ackredited. The insurance company told me that there was no way to recover money from an ackredited diplomat, only from non-ackredited diplomats.


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## MoTheMan

par said:


> I'm curious, how can the customs search a acredited diplomat of a foreign nation? Article 41 of the vienna convention prohibits criminal prosecution by any ackredited diplomat. If a diplomat wants to smuggle marijuana there is very little that the US can do besides refusing entry to the US by declaring 'persona non grata'.


The government has every right to stop and search anyone they desire, they can do so in the name of national security. They can also confiscate anything they need to if importing that item is against the law or poses a threat. What the government can't do to a diplomat is pursue legal action against him/her. They can merely send them back to theri country of origin & refuse them entry.


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## par

Incorrect. An _ackredited_ diplomat can not be detained nor can their residence be entered. This state dept web site gives an overview: http://www.state.gov/m/ds/immunities/c9127.htm


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## par

The threat piece is correct though. A US officer of the law is instructed to preserve the peace according to law and may take action to stop immediate danger to the peace and order -and while diplomatic immunity will prevent prosecution, it doesn't mean that an officer can't stop a crime in progress.


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## Lumpold

If you read the heading on the columns, firstly:
'Residence May be Entered Subject to Ordinary Procedures' all this means is they need a court order to enter the house, they can still enter it, they just need excessive legal backing first. And anyone can be detained, they'll just get released quick. Any government can request that a member of diplomatic staff is returned home, just wether it happens or not!


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## par

But...

if you read the row labeled "diplomatic agent" it says "No" to the question if Residence may be entered subject to ordinary procedures.

???


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## Lumpold

All '...ordinary procedures' means it it has to come from the highest court possible in the country not a local court... in the UK it would be called the High Court so I presume this would be the Supreme Court in the states, I'm not sure...


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## mosesbotbol

Try going to a foreign country that sells Cubans to start off. Canada is expensive, but a start. If you have a few dollars, try flying to Spain or Switzerland in the winter (airfare is cheaper), and smoke yourself to oblivion on Cubans and maybe you can make some friends whom will assist you on future endeavors.

Roundtrip airfare to Spain or Switzerland and buying a box of cigars is cheaper than buying just the box of cigars in Canada. Taxes are a bitch…


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## Charles

Thanks Mo. I probably should have read through all of the threads before starting my own asking for advice.

Charles


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## dlctwice

As a newbie, I appreciate the timeliness of your post...I covered quite a bit of ground that helps me not to insert my foot to far into my mouth. Thanks, and I look forward to becoming more active in the group.
Best regards,
Danny


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## mosesbotbol

paperfireman said:


> Ok i know i will get flamed for this but can you buy a cuban in Europe and then bring it here? Or do you have to sneak it in?


A cigar with no bands on it is hard to tell where it came from. I remember when more cabinet cigars didn't have bands, and were the main cigars to bring home as "souvenirs". Now, only a handful comes that way. Also, a small package that is wrapped and then shrink-wrapped is less likely to be ripped open.

I had a friend bring me a box HdM's and when he came to my house, he handed me a letter from Customs saying they were taken. I had to pay him $200.00 for the effort in vain... Win some, lose some. Another time, about 12 years ago.


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## rumballs

dlctwice said:


> As a newbie, I appreciate the timeliness of your post...I covered quite a bit of ground that helps me not to insert my foot to far into my mouth. Thanks, and I look forward to becoming more active in the group.


timeliness? you mean 2.5 years before you joined?


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## teeznutz

Great post!! All my questions regarding habanos were answered. As a newbie you are too eager and restlessly anxious to obtain and finally 
smoke one. Its the holy grail!! The eppitamy of a what all cigars are compared to. 

Hall of Fame Post in my mind!!

Thanks for the insight!!


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## emgjet

Hey Mo,

Haven't been here in a while...hope everything is well with you.

Nice Thread...good way to get things started out with a very important topic especially to the newer folks of the cigar community.

Stay well.


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## MoTheMan

emgjet said:


> Hey Mo,
> 
> Haven't been here in a while...hope everything is well with you.
> 
> Nice Thread...good way to get things started out with a very important topic especially to the newer folks of the cigar community.
> 
> Stay well.


Thanks!
Thigas are well, but extremely busy lately. Good to see you here (every now & then -- LOL).


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## emgjet

Nicely done, and handled Mo.
:w


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## dayplanner

Thanks Mo for the post. I'm new to the forum, and have only been smoking cigars for a couple of months. I'm glad I dug far enough to find your post and save an unsuspecting "silverback" from an obviously annoying question. Posts like this and the willingness of established members to help us newbies is why I like hanging out here so much.


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## MoTheMan

cquon said:


> Thanks Mo for the post. I'm new to the forum, and have only been smoking cigars for a couple of months. I'm glad I dug far enough to find your post and save an unsuspecting "silverback" from an obviously annoying question. Posts like this and the willingness of established members to help us newbies is why I like hanging out here so much.


*COOL!*


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## KraZieMaN55

MoTheMan said:


> Thanks for the feedback everyone. I'm glad that the post is having a positive effect.
> 
> Thought I'd copy my post from another thread here as it seemed relevant.
> 
> *_____________________________________________________________*
> 
> I think it's time I posted a releveant story here since there have been a lot of questions asked lately inquiring about sources of Cuban cigars.
> 
> Nearly a year ago I got to hang out & herf with a fellow Brother Of The Leaf who has a long history of smoking Havanas, Mr. G.
> 
> Mr. G was a cigarette smoker for many years and had even dabbled with pipes more than a few times. His work & travels have taken him to five continents and over sixty countries visited, so he's been around Havanas for quite some time.
> 
> It was about thirty years ago while traveling overseas when he entered a tobacco shop in search for some pipe blends but couldn't find anything that he was either familiar with or appealed to him. The tobacconist there offered a Havana instead assuring him that he would enjoy it. That first Havana simply blew him away. He told me that the experience of it was unlike any smoking experience he had ever had. He pretty much gave up cigarettes & pipes after that and has been, not just a cigar smoker, but a dedicated Habanophile since.
> 
> As we herfed we got to talking. Here is somewhat how our conversation transpired.
> 
> *Mo*: So tell me G, where do you get your Havanas.
> 
> *Mr. G*: I'm not going to tell you that.
> 
> *Mo*: [Rude, I thought] That's OK. I know of quite a few sources of where to get Havanas, I was just curious, that's all.
> 
> *Mr. G*: I don't mean to be rude my friend, that's not my intention. You see, it's just that I guard my sources for Cuban cigars very closely, and there're several really good reasons why I do that.
> 
> I've been smoking for over thirty years. Absolutely fell in love with Cuban cigars from my first stick. I buy & smoke them for the pure passion and enjoyment of them, not to be trendy, to show off, to impress, or to feel the rush of doing something forbidden.
> 
> Remember, buying and importing Cuban cigars into the US is against the law. If found guilty, I can get fined and/or go to jail.
> 
> *Mo*: You haven't been fined or anything, have you (chuckle).
> 
> *Mr. G*: I'll tell you more later. First, let me tell you this. When I first started smoking Havanas, the only way I could get them was to purchase them overseas and bring them back with me on my frequent travels. I always took the risk that they might get confiscated at the airport (or seaport). It actually happened a couple of times. Scared the s--t out of me, but luckily, there were no reprecussions from that. Still, it always worried me.
> 
> Over time, I became a regular customer of a few tobacconists whom I frequented on my trips. Heck, one of them in Switzerland even knows my kids' (who are all adults now) names. After some years, these folks began to take the chance and allow me to make the purchase then ship the boxes to me here in the US. While these merchants didn't carry everything I was looking for, over the years as I established a very strong bond with them they would never hesitate to find a particular cigar that I was looking for. Pretty soon, any cigar I could want to buy, I could obtain.
> 
> *Mo*: Pretty impressive.
> 
> *Mr. G*: Not really, just good customer service.
> 
> Anyhow, quite a few years ago, I got a chance to do work for a major Fortune 500 firm and the CFO there was a big cigar smoker. When he found out I was a lover of the leaf, and especially Havanas, he begged & prodded me to no end to reveal my sources to him. So I did, and gave him a couple of references.
> 
> Well, this guy could be a bit pompous and loved to show off. Pretty soon he was chain smoking Havanas openly, boasting about his latest cigar acquisition, giving them out to all his friends, just basically being very indiscrete. Next thing I knew, I received a letter from this same vendor that I introduced him to informing me that they were no longer shipping cigars to the US due to a sudden increase of confiscations and an onslaught of inquiry from the US Treasury Dept.
> 
> Seems that this character made so much noise that he attracted the attention of the US Sustoms and possibly the Justice Dept. Now I was upset that here I was losing a good vendor that I had used and come to rely on over the years. But the worst part, I found out, was that this vendor had a few dozen very reliable customers in the US that they would also have to cut shipping to. Not only did I suffer due to someone else's indiscretion, but so did several other individuals. Heck, I'm sure they would have killed me if they knew that I might have been the cause. Back then, there were way fewer American smokers, so most tobacconists' business was their local market. The US was just too hard to ship to on a regular basis.
> 
> Now all this happened more than 15 years ago, before all the cigar craze ever came into existence. Back then, you would call, place an order, give them your credit card informatin or mail them an American Express check, then wait for your package. Many of these vendors have remained in business over the years by not catering to US customers, but to their local regulars. While the US market is a very lucrative one, and always becons, these merchants know that it can be a hassle to keep their American customer happy. They'd prefer to stick to their basic business.
> 
> You know to this day, I still have not been able to re-establish my relationship with this particular vendor.
> 
> *Mo*: Dang!!
> 
> *Mr.G*: Yeah! Worst part, several months later I had package intercepted by customs that resulted in my paying a fine of several thousand dollars. I think all this was because of one guy, and I was the stupid one who introduced him to my Havana source.
> 
> *Mo*: That really sucks.
> 
> *Mr.G*: Now a days, you have the internet, dozens of dealers in just about as many countries, all promising to deliver you the best, latest, freshest, or most aged cigars in the world. So someone discovers a new dealer with great prices and aged inventory. They buy a few boxes, get all excited, tell their friend who then buy even more boxes, and it just keeps escalating from there. Pretty soon, there's enough noise that the US Customs Service catches wind of this and basically shuts down all importation from this operation. A few weeks or months later, there's another new and "relaible" dealer advertising on the internet and the whole cycle repeats again.
> 
> All these new guys just keep jumping from one seller to another always looking for the best price, best deal, newest thing. They just don't stick around to establish good rapport with their respective vendors. Believe me, in the long run that'll just hurt both you & me.
> 
> I gotta tell you Mo, buying Havanas and shipping them to the US is still an illegal activity and I dread what would happen if the government ever decided to fully enforce the law.
> 
> *Mo*: So that's why you like keeping a low profile.
> 
> *Mr G*: Mo, nobody knows what I buy or how much I have except me. Sure I've gifted cigars to friends and associates but I don't draw attention to the fact that they're Havanas.
> 
> Mo, I try to be VERY careful and discrete. Heck, I haven't had a seizure in over 8 1/2 years.
> 
> I tell anybody dying to buy Havanas that that activity is still illegal for a US citizen, and that it can have reprecussions. If they absolutely insist, then they should do so at their own risk. They can go ahead, but caution and discretion is how they should approach it. That would be my advice.
> .
> .
> .
> .
> 
> We sat & smoked a while. We shared a lot more information during our herfing, it was an enriching experience. Overall though, the impact of what he said still rings true and I thought I'd share the jist of it here.
> 
> I recall enjoying a most delicious Ramon Allones Gigantes while Mr. G smoked an unbanded churchill. His was definately a Havana, you could tell by the aroma . . . but just what kind of Havana, only he knew for sure. :w
> __________________


Hey Mo,

I just read your post about G. Excellent and most enlightening conversation. Words from a very wise man can really sink in deeply. Thank you for sharing your past memory of this subject matter.


----------



## Wetterhorn

Not surprising that Mo provides us with great information!

That is why he is the man!


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## Da Klugs

For those newer members that may not have a background on this...

There are a number of folks that have been banned from here due to their inability to follow club rules and ...well in general be a polite member of our community. This was one of those folks coming back in dress-up. Might be a habit they developed in front of their moms mirror, and in her undies, but that is pure conjecture.

They are members of other cigar boards and continue to feel the need to come here even in dress-up as, they and only they, are righteous in their actions. We the members of club stogie and the admins here have wronged them for not being able to say and do what they wanted when they came a calling. For some reason they continue to ridicule this board while at the same time pine away for reinstatement. Not everyone falls into this category, unfortunately given the cowardly anonymity of this and similar actions, all get painted with the Asshat brush.

Notice it chose a sensitive topic. One that is a given and a rule on every public cigar board without exception. Obviously an experienced poster that was trying to stir up trouble. They signed up and posted with the intention of being banned. Did so without disclosing who they were. Another act of cowardice. Only mentioned that they were originally banned over comments about a retailer. (TWcigars) Do a little search and it's easy to narrow the field.

Without drama these types don't really have anything to contribute. Not sure if they even smoke things other than virtually each other giggling over their exploits.

Really quite sad that small people need to demonstrate that fact to everyone here in such a public and embarrassing way.


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## Pablo

We closed this thread as Mo very nicely provided the needed information in the first few posts.

If your coming back here wondering where the flame war posts are, they have been deleted. I left DaKlugs post above as it sums up why the flame wars occur.


----------

