# NIST Certified Hygrometer Problems



## socalocmatt (Dec 22, 2010)

So, reading the advice of some members (HnT), I found it a good idea to invest in a NIST certified hygrometer. I ordered a wireless unit from The Weather Store along with an additional sensor unit. Here is the one I bought:

NIST Certified Wireless Hygrometer Thermometer 4380 


So, I get the units in the mail. Setup them up and put them in a tupperdor and jarodor that already have a hygrometer in them. These units were reading the rh at about 10% less that what the other hygrometer where reading (Caliber III, and HygroSet II).

Now this is when things get odd. Both the Caliber III and HygroSet II were recently tested with the Boveda calibration bag about a month ago. Both were within 2% - 3% rh of 75%. On the flip-side, the units I purchased from The Weather Store came is an ISO certificate showing that they were about only 1% off of a lab tested calibration. I assume that the lab test is far superior to my little Boveda pouch.

So, I figure I will tosse the units in the Boveda calibration bag. One of the bags was open from that last test (they last a few months). The other was a fresh, never opened, calibration bag. 48-hours later, this is their reading:










Both are off by 7% to 8% in two different bags. I find this odd as they are two separate units. From two separate boxes. With two separate ISO tests showing that both are within about the 1% range. I think to myself that maybe the boveda bags were really old when they were shipped to me.

So, as of last night I started the salt test at 9 PM. I tossed in the HygroSet II just to see what that one was reading too. This morning's results:

Hygro Set II: 73%
CC Traceable Hygro #1: 71%
CC Traceable Hygro #2: 71%

Is there something I'm missing here? :hmm: Shouldn't the units be at 75% or within 1%? Did I get 2 deffective units that are off by the exact same amounts each time? Do I send both back for replacements or will I get the same results with the new units? :noidea:


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## Tman (Sep 12, 2010)

Make sure you aren't covering the sensor. It won't read right if the sensor is not getting the the humidity it needs.

On the other hand, you got suckered into the NIST mumbo jumbo hype. As long as the quality of the hygrometer is good, you don't need a stamp telling you that it is legitimate.

As Chris Farley in Tommy Boy said "Because they know all they sold ya was a guaranteed piece of shit. That's all it is, isn't it? Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it guaranteed, I will. I got spare time. But for now, for your customer's sake, for your daughter's sake, ya might wanna think about buying a quality product from me."

I found another information:

http://www.theweatherstore.com/nicedihy.html
•Resolution is 1% RH, and accuracy is ±2%RH mid-range to ±4%RH elsewhere

Seems calibration is pretty good to me!


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## socalocmatt (Dec 22, 2010)

Yep. Thought that the sensor might have been covered. This is how they were positioned for the salt test (obviously I put on the lid for the test  ).










And yep, I buy into the NIST and also the ISO testing. My main draw to this unit particulr aside from the NIST and ISO stuff was that it is a wireless unit, a feature that seems to be useful to me.


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## Reg (Dec 6, 2010)

Tman said:


> I found another information:
> 
> http://www.theweatherstore.com/nicedihy.html
> •Resolution is 1% RH, and accuracy is ±2%RH mid-range to ±4%RH elsewhere
> ...


Great info here. Definitely test them at the RH you'll be using instead of 75. Since "mid-range" is 60, presumably the closer to 60 you get the more accurate they'll be... although still +/-2%.


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## Tman (Sep 12, 2010)

socalocmatt said:


> My main draw to this unit particulr aside from the NIST and ISO stuff was that it is a wireless unit, a feature that seems to be useful to me.


Now that DOES seem useful.

Can you calibrate this unit? I'm not sure of what they mean by "mid range" and "elsewhere"


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## Reg (Dec 6, 2010)

Tman said:


> Now that DOES seem useful.
> 
> Can you calibrate this unit? I'm not sure of what they mean by "mid range" and "elsewhere"


Its range is 25-90, so I just took "mid-range" to mean 60 +/- 5 or even 10 (just my guess). And I assumed "elsewhere" to be <50 or >70.


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## Habano (Jul 5, 2010)

Ahhh. Why are you testing the "wireless" portion of the kit you bought? I could be wrong, but I think you should be testing the actual hygrometer you bought, not the wireless device. I would think the wireless portion of the kit just simply shows you what the actual hygrometer is showing inside of your humidor or cooler. Or is it reversed? The bigger unit is the actual wireless device and the smaller one is the hygrometer? Ha I'm confused.

I have two NIST hygrometers that I just bought two weeks ago for my wine cooler. Check my Avanti wine cooler build thread to look at them. Both were tested in the Boveda packets and were dead accurate. Not only was the RH perfect, but both were showing the same temps as well.

I'd consider sending them back and getting ones with out the wireless option as this just add more variables to the equation when you are trying to keep it simple. Agree the wireless function is and would be nice, considered it actually, but decided not to go with it.


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## socalocmatt (Dec 22, 2010)

Tman said:


> Now that DOES seem useful.
> 
> Can you calibrate this unit? I'm not sure of what they mean by "mid range" and "elsewhere"


Nope. Can't callibrate it. That's a major downside. 



Reg said:


> Its range is 25-90, so I just took "mid-range" to mean 60 +/- 5 or even 10 (just my guess). And I assumed "elsewhere" to be <50 or >70.


I first had it in a tupperdor that is at 63% and it was reading at 56%. Mid range was off more than the upper end unfortunately.



Starbuck said:


> Ahhh. Why are you testing the "wireless" portion of the kit you bought?


The smaller wireless units are hygrometers that transmit the data to the larger unit. The large unit is also a hygrometer that is supose to show "inside" data.

Has anyone ever used this unit befor. I'm thinking of trying a replacement at this point. If the replacements are off again, I might have to go with a wired solution


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## Tman (Sep 12, 2010)

Reg said:


> Its range is 25-90, so I just took "mid-range" to mean 60 +/- 5 or even 10 (just my guess). And I assumed "elsewhere" to be <50 or >70.


Oh I see! They must consider anywhere close to 60% (or 57.5%) to be smack dab in the middle. That means if it is close to 90%, it will be off by as much as 4%...

that means the NIST calibration is few percent off.


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## Habano (Jul 5, 2010)

socalocmatt said:


> The smaller wireless units are hygrometers that transmit the data to the larger unit. The large unit is also a hygrometer that is supose to show "inside" data.
> 
> Has anyone ever used this unit befor. I'm thinking of trying a replacement at this point. If the replacements are off again, I might have to go with a wired solution


Interesting. You would think it would be the other way around.

Return them, then look at the ones I picked up. They work perfect for me as they've been tested as well. Also they are a few bucks cheaper than the ones you bought.


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## Reg (Dec 6, 2010)

Tman said:


> Oh I see! They must consider anywhere close to 60% (or 57.5%) to be smack dab in the middle. That means if it is close to 90%, it will be off by as much as 4%...
> 
> that means the NIST calibration is few percent off.


Oh, sorry. It should be 25-95. I mistyped it.


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## bazookajoe (Nov 2, 2006)

socalocmatt said:


> ...Has anyone ever used this unit befor. I'm thinking of trying a replacement at this point. If the replacements are off again, I might have to go with a wired solution


I have used those remote hygrometers, not the base unit though it has no effect on the remote unit readings. They are actually Oregon Scientific units. My experience is similar to yours in that they can be a couple of points off, but within the tolerance of the specs.

There are so many variables in calibration tests you can do yourself that you'll rarely get readings of exactly 75%. I have the Oregon Scientific units, some Western Caliber III's and one of the calibrated units that come with Aristocrat humidors. I've done salt tests, Boveda tests and I've tested all the hygrometers against the Aristocrat one. They all differ 2-3 points from each other.

Point is, if it would make you have more confidence in the hygrometers you can replace them, but unless you spend a couple thousand dollars you can't get a hygrometer that is calibrated and guaranteed accurate to within 1%. And given the variations of RH where and when you smoke and even within a humidor you don't need that kind of accuracy. Add to that all the factors that affect the taste of a cigar including what you eat and drink I don't believe you can tell the difference one or two points in RH makes in a cigar. IMO once you like the way your cigars smoke, you just need a hygrometer accurate enough to be able to detect changes so you can do whatever is necessary to fix that.


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## asmartbull (Aug 16, 2009)

I would not use the Boli pack to test the units.
I would use the beads of the desired rh you store your sticks
at. I did this. Devices that were spot on at 75 were off by 4
at 60, and visa versa.
I have a NIST that is spot on at 60 and 65.
I now use it as a baseline for the other hydrometers...


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## Nathan King (Nov 4, 2010)

I think you're all crazy. I just go by what the cigars are telling me when I feel and smoke them and don't get bent out of shape over a few percent relative humidity.


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## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

Tman said:


> On the other hand, you got suckered into the NIST mumbo jumbo hype.


Since I'm considered one of the main proponents of inexpensive certified units, I take this rather personally. It's not hype and I will explain.



Tman said:


> Oh I see! They must consider anywhere close to 60% (or 57.5%) to be smack dab in the middle. That means if it is close to 90%, it will be off by as much as 4%...
> 
> that means the NIST calibration is few percent off.


Correct, however they are still vastly more accurate and CONSISTENT than non-certified units most use.



bazookajoe said:


> I have used those remote hygrometers, not the base unit though it has no effect on the remote unit readings. They are actually Oregon Scientific units. My experience is similar to yours in that they can be a couple of points off, but within the tolerance of the specs.
> 
> There are so many variables in calibration tests you can do yourself that you'll rarely get readings of exactly 75%. I have the Oregon Scientific units, some Western Caliber III's and one of the calibrated units that come with Aristocrat humidors. I've done salt tests, Boveda tests and I've tested all the hygrometers against the Aristocrat one. They all differ 2-3 points from each other.
> 
> Point is, if it would make you have more confidence in the hygrometers you can replace them, but unless you spend a couple thousand dollars you can't get a hygrometer that is calibrated and guaranteed accurate to within 1%. And given the variations of RH where and when you smoke and even within a humidor *you don't need that kind of accuracy*. Add to that all the factors that affect the taste of a cigar including what you eat and drink I don't believe you can tell the difference one or two points in RH makes in a cigar. IMO once you like the way your cigars smoke, *you just need a hygrometer accurate enough to be able to detect changes* so you can do whatever is necessary to fix that.


Precisely, point well taken.

The fact is that any hygrometer is only accurate at the point where it is calibrated. I would expect anything that's accurate at 75% to be off by 5-10% at 65%, whether certified, or a Chinese pretend hygrometer.

Another point that's been overlooked here is consistency. The certified unit is far less susceptible to variations in power. Most, if not all, el cheapo units will vary widely as battery power diminishes.

The only way to ensure that any unit is dead-nuts on, is to calibrate it to the precise RH at which you plan to use it. Assuming your unit is calibrated to 60%, it will be far more accurate there, than at 70%. The easiest way to calibrate a hygrometer to your storage level is to calibrate it to the appropriate Heartfelt beads. Back when I actually used hygrometers, that's what I did and had unwavering success.

I think you made a great choice and that system will give you tremendous peace of mind for years to come.


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## asmartbull (Aug 16, 2009)

Nathan King said:


> I think you're all crazy. I just go by what the cigars are telling me when I feel and smoke them and don't get bent out of shape over a few percent relative humidity.


Because 5% +/- can ruin a great CC experience......


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## Tman (Sep 12, 2010)

Herf N Turf said:


> Since I'm considered one of the main proponents of inexpensive certified units, I take this rather personally. It's not hype and I will explain.
> 
> Correct, however they are still vastly more accurate and CONSISTENT than non-certified units most use.


Sorry Don, I didn't mean an attack at your preference. We just have different preferences, that's all.

I agree with everyone's opinion that you get what you pay for. I just don't think paying $70 for a hygrometer (that's ~4x the cost of China made hygrometers!) is necessary. Especially for measuring such a close range of 60~70% RH like we do. I do like the bells and whistle of the wireless though ($80).

I was just trying to give my perspective on hygrometers--that you don't necessarily need to invest in expensive hygrometers as long as you have a pretty good point of reference with your hygrometer.

Now, having said that, I would say to still invest in digital hygrometers. Cheap analogs are crap.


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## Tman (Sep 12, 2010)

Reg said:


> Oh, sorry. It should be 25-95. I mistyped it.


Nope. You were fine with 25% to 90%.

Humidity - NIST Traceable® Radio-Signal Remote Humidity Meter /Thermometer Control Company 4380


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## hawaiian (Jan 24, 2011)

I bought Meade versions of Honeywell TM005x from Amazon for $60 includes 1 base unit with 3 wireless sensors. Threw all 3 sensors along with recently calibrated Hygroset II in a tupperware with salt. 36hrs later all 4 units read 75%.

I also looked at buying a certified unit but I went the cheap route. I was ok with using a label maker to note the differences of each sensors on the base unit to keep track but luckily all 3 sensors were spot on.

You might want to return them and look at Meade units.


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## socalocmatt (Dec 22, 2010)

Well, talk to a guy over at The Weather Store. He was cool about it and said I could send them back for exchange or refund, whichever I want. Really surprised that they stood by their "No Questions Asked" return policy. It almost seemed too easy. Before I packed them up I text a text to a couple friends to see if they had any ideas. They aren't into cigars but they are way heavy into electronics and build crazy stuff all the time. One suggested that I remove the batteries from the transmitting units and then from the main unit. Then, put the batteries back into the transmitting units and hitting the reset button once the batteries are put back in. Lastly to put the batteries back into the receiving unit and resetting that unit. That seemed to work. They are dead-on accurate now. Good times! :clap2:

So, I guess if anyone runs into the same thing this might help them. Still not sure why this happened or why the solution worked, but I guess those things are way beyond my level of understanding. Thanks everyone for their feedback and help on this.


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## Athion (Jul 17, 2010)

socalocmatt said:


> Still not sure why this happened or why the solution worked, but I guess those things are way beyond my level of understanding.


This is called the "Back away slowly" moment. When something wasn't working right, and suddenly is, for no good reason 

I run into it all the time working with computers... just back away slowly and dont make any sudden movements


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## Tman (Sep 12, 2010)

socalocmatt said:


> Well, talk to a guy over at The Weather Store. He was cool about it and said I could send them back for exchange or refund, whichever I want. Really surprised that they stood by their "No Questions Asked" return policy. It almost seemed too easy. Before I packed them up I text a text to a couple friends to see if they had any ideas. They aren't into cigars but they are way heavy into electronics and build crazy stuff all the time. One suggested that I remove the batteries from the transmitting units and then from the main unit. Then, put the batteries back into the transmitting units and hitting the reset button once the batteries are put back in. Lastly to put the batteries back into the receiving unit and resetting that unit. That seemed to work. They are dead-on accurate now. Good times! :clap2:
> 
> So, I guess if anyone runs into the same thing this might help them. Still not sure why this happened or why the solution worked, but I guess those things are way beyond my level of understanding. Thanks everyone for their feedback and help on this.


Glad to hear this. Enjoy your wireless readouts!


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## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

Tman said:


> Sorry Don, I didn't mean an attack at your preference. We just have different preferences, that's all.


T,
While I do appreciate your placation, I don't think it's quite that simple. I do not and have never advocated expensive hygrometers for cigar storage. I have also never recommended any of the cheesy little pucks, which attempt to mask themselves as hygrometers. It's simply unreasonable to assume that you can expect consistent accuracy simply because something has LCD numerals on it instead of a needle. (In fact, there are needles that are vastly more accurate than most digital hygrometers.)

And, for the record, it's not my "preference". I don't even use hygrometers anymore. But, for those who do, I recommend a good one; one you can count on, until such time you're comfortable enough to abandon them altogether.

I don't think that spending an amount of money equivalent to a 5'er of premiums is expensive, when that person is depending on the instrument to insure their collection.

Q: Is a $60, certified and guaranteed instrument better than a $20, so called, "digital hygrometer"?
A: Yes. All day long.

Take a couple apart some time. Simply the difference in size of the sensors should tell you something.

For the OP, what your friend did was a "cold reset". It works with a lot of battery powered electronic "brains" (devices with sensors) and even on your computer. He basically "rebooted" them.

Glad you're a happy camper again!

D-out!


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## bc8436 (Feb 12, 2011)

My NIST hygrometer is having the same problems. This is the model I purchased: VWR Traceable Hygrometer/Thermometer 4410 FREE S&H 4410. Control Company Labware & Accessories.

Seems to be reading 5% lower than my 2 Xikar hygrometers that had been calibrated with Boveda pack. Dropped them all inside Boveda calibration packs today, the 24 hour wait period is painful lol


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