# FDA to extend tobacco regulations to e-cigarettes, other products



## elricfate

FDA e-cigarettes decision: Will regulate like other tobacco products - CNN.com

It has begun. (I'm only posting this because they added cigars to the list, I don't vape).


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## AZ330FZL

I understand regulating the other pieces of this e-cigs and such, but Kids aren't interested in Premium Cigars, they can't afford them in most cases anyway. They just used this to blanket cover everything even though they were going after the e-cigs more than anything else. SUCKS. FDA overstepping their bounds.


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## StogieNinja

Ugh. They went with option 1 for cigars.


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## MikeFox87

Been a lurker for a while. Almost registered on a few occasions. Finally cracked today, just to say this:

I hate you, FDA


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## ssrobbi

Well that's it, that's the dagger. Everything changes from here on out.


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## NormH3

Have been hearing local PSA spots on local radio stating that cigars have almost as many cancer causing chemicals as cigarettes. I seem to recall that this is untrue.


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## ssrobbi

NormH3 said:


> Have been hearing local PSA spots on local radio stating that cigars have almost as many cancer causing chemicals as cigarettes. I seem to recall that this is untrue.


I don't know if it's untrue, but the habits of people who generally smoke cigars make a huge difference. People normally don't inhale cigar smoke, so lung cancer is less likely, and most aren't chain smoking cigars every day.


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## NormH3

ssrobbi said:


> I don't know if it's untrue, but the habits of people who generally smoke cigars make a huge difference. People normally don't inhale cigar smoke, so lung cancer is less likely, and most aren't chain smoking cigars every day.


I lost a grandfather and an uncle (father and son) to cigarette related disease. My other grandfather smoked cigars all his life and pipes in his later life. Lived to be 98. I guess it's a toss up.


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## Franchise

Does anyone think that this a favor to Cuba? I'm not a Cuban cigar aficionado but I would imagine the majority of their brands are pre 2007. The FDA moves in and cracks down on the majority of the NC cigars and then trade is opened with Cuba and they take over the market again.

I'll be loading up on the NC's I like while I can and then I guess I'll be smoking AF's or some other NC brand that isn't charging an arm and a leg after everyone is pushed out.

So instead of people buying Cuban's online from China is this going to make people buy AJ's newest release from a store in a foreign land?

AZ330FZL you are right most kids aren't looking to buy premium cigars but I'm sure a lot of kids go thru a foil pack or 2 of swishers that their mom finds and is disgusted by. I would guess that the small cigarillo's did a lot of damage to the cigar industry.


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## MikeFox87

Franchise said:


> Does anyone think that this a favor to Cuba? I'm not a Cuban cigar aficionado but I would imagine the majority of their brands are pre 2007. The FDA moves in and cracks down on the majority of the NC cigars and then trade is opened with Cuba and they take over the market again.
> 
> I'll be loading up on the NC's I like while I can and then I guess I'll be smoking AF's or some other NC brand that isn't charging an arm and a leg after everyone is pushed out.
> 
> So instead of people buying Cuban's online from China is this going to make people buy AJ's newest release from a store in a foreign land?
> 
> AZ330FZL you are right most kids aren't looking to buy premium cigars but I'm sure a lot of kids go thru a foil pack or 2 of swishers that their mom finds and is disgusted by. I would guess that the small cigarillo's did a lot of damage to the cigar industry.


I could be wrong, but my thinking is that this pretty much seals the deal that CCs will never be legally purchased in an American shop. They weren't on the market before 2007 for decades so the FDA probably considers them "new." I highly doubt Cuba will comply with the approval process -- when you factor in the litigation issues over dueling labels with the same brand name, it would seem to be more trouble for Habanos SA than necessary. They've proved they don't need this market to be legal and they do just fine.


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## Franchise

I was thinking that our government would come out and say that the Cubans were being sold in America Pre Embargo so they would be grand fathered in


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## MikeFox87

Franchise said:


> I was thinking that our government would come out and say that the Cubans were being sold in America Pre Embargo so they would be grand fathered in


I suppose it's possible, you never know what kind of loophole the government might try to take advantage of if they think it benefits them. For the sake of debate, lets say you're right: grandfather date is just one hurdle to cross.

The next one is the trademark lawsuit issues. Two different Cohibas, two different Montecristos, two different Romeos, and so on down the line... If they can help it, Altadis and General will never allow Cuba to sell different products with the same brand names here. And they'll definitely fight it, because all of the non-Cuban counterparts are also pre-2007. If Altadis and General lose the rights to those brands, they're in the same boat as the boutiques. Which ain't good.

Basically what I'm saying is, I think ALOT has to go Cuba's way to be able to sell CCs legally on our soil, and I wouldn't bet on it happening. Which is sad. In true free-market capitalism, this is a non issue. Unfortunately, we don't have that!


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## deke

The cigar problem is partially created by the machine-made bubblegum flavored small cigars and cigarillos which The Government feels is encouraging young people to smoke who are able to vote and serve in the armed forces of The Government and get killed in the service of the Government, and are supposed to be able to make free choices in their lives.

I don't remember any Drew Estate Acid cigars in a bubblegum flavor.


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## Bird-Dog

Ingredients: Tobacco

Now what?


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## MikeFox87

curmudgeonista said:


> Ingredients: Tobacco
> 
> Now what?


FDA: "now you wait 2 years for me to tell you no because it's too dangerous for the kids who don't buy them. But hey, thanks for the application fee."


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## Bird-Dog

Do you really think congress critters and the gov't in general will just say _"No thank you"_ to huge inflows of cash by eliminating a revenue source they've demonized to the point that they can tax, tax, tax and over-tax at will without the slightest objection from the majority of the population? Not very damn likely!


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## UBC03

curmudgeonista said:


> Do you really think congress critters and the gov't in general will just say _"No thank you"_ to huge inflows of cash by eliminating a revenue source they've demonized to the point that they can tax, tax, tax and over-tax at will without the slightest objection from the majority of the population? Not very damn likely!


Ask the people of Colorado or Cali. For the right amount of tax money anything is possible.


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## MikeFox87

curmudgeonista said:


> Do you really think congress critters and the gov't in general will just say _"No thank you"_ to huge inflows of cash by eliminating a revenue source they've demonized to the point that they can tax, tax, tax and over-tax at will without the slightest objection from the majority of the population? Not very damn likely!


Fair point, of course not. I'm sure new blends will be approved from time to time. But this obviously isn't a good thing for manufacturers or consumers. I still don't think we'll see Cubans legally sold here anytime soon.


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## Bird-Dog

Halfwheel has a very good explanation and analysis.

5 Takeaways from FDA's Decision to Regulate Cigars | halfwheel

When it comes to premium non-flavored cigars (i.e. 100% natural tobacco), I don't see any way that the FDA can control the blend. As far as they are concerned, tobacco is tobacco. Their scrutiny will more likely focus on packaging.


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## tonyzoc

NormH3 said:


> Have been hearing local PSA spots on local radio stating that cigars have almost as many cancer causing chemicals as cigarettes. I seem to recall that this is untrue.


The studies I've seen show of your smoking 1 cigar a day on average your odd of getting cancer are no different than the general population...you need to smoke 4 or 5 a day to see any increase and even that is very small increase. This doesn't even take into account the meditative and calming aspects of cigars...which probably does more good that smoking them does bad.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk


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## StogieNinja

Big Tobacco: "The new guys are stealing all of our business"
Anti-Tobacco: "I hate all these new craft cigars too"
Big Tobacco: "Guys, I'm worried about the embargo ending, that'll hurt us too"
Anti-Tobacco: "I hate that too."
Big Tobacco: "I got it! Let's bribe the FDA to eliminate all the competition"
Anti-Tobacco: "Yeah, that'll really shrink the market, only Big Tobacco will survive."
Big Tobacco: "Sounds good to us."

...and that's how it went.


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## tonyzoc

I see allot of people point to big tobacco as the cause... I see them as the effect. If they're behind all this, why would they have subjected themselves to congressional hearing and media demonization and handed out billions to all the States that piled on? If they had such power wouldn't they have told the government to piss off? Its the government with the courts, police and military that pull all the strings. Our government is the Corleone family...50 years later.

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## UBC03

I think that's an insult to the Corleone legacy. If it was operated like the godfather movies, we would be holding elections every six months. No one would run for fear of being whacked. 
If big tobacco had any power left I'm sure they'd use it to try to tax cigars to death and get their taxes down. Since I've been smoking (30yrs)they have gone up more than 600% ,more in other places. Most of the price is tax. 

My theory is this "it is what it is"..nothing you can do but adapt. 
The cigar lobbyists put up a good fight and lost. Now it's up to us to figure a way around the new regulations. We always do. Just ask the guys with the huge inventory of cc's. They didn't come in 100$ at a time from trips there. 
In 3 years the mods will be editing threads about" how to buy new boutique blends". But guys will still be buyin em. ..somewhere ,some how. Cause that's what we do.


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## tonyzoc

UBC03 said:


> I think that's an insult to the Corleone legacy. If it was operated like the godfather movies, we would be holding elections every six months. No one would run for fear of being whacked.
> If big tobacco had any power left I'm sure they'd use it to try to tax cigars to death and get their taxes down. Since I've been smoking (30yrs)they have gone up more than 600% ,more in other places. Most of the price is tax.
> 
> My theory is this "it is what it is"..nothing you can do but adapt.
> The cigar lobbyists put up a good fight and lost. Now it's up to us to figure a way around the new regulations. We always do. Just ask the guys with the huge inventory of cc's. They didn't come in 100$ at a time from trips there.
> In 3 years the mods will be editing threads about" how to buy new boutique blends". But guys will still be buyin em. ..somewhere ,some how. Cause that's what we do.


Yup, we can all move to Nicaragua &#128513; ...hey that's not a bad idea...hmmmm.

Every time something like this happens I picture the scene with Michael Corleone and his father saying... Congressman Corleone, Senator Corleone... Don't worry. We'll get there Pop.

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## Bird-Dog

Don't forget the three unspoken goals of government:


 Secure ever increasing amounts of money, power, and control.
 Keep high-dollar campaign contributors happy, which primarily implies big corporate interests.
 Placate and control the public by appearing to cater to public interests, while in truth, merely pandering to it while ensuring #1 & #2 goals are met.

The FDA is obsessed with control (why is this an FDA issue and not ATFE?). It's a power grab. It's a money grab. What it's not is the end of the cigar business. Follow the money.


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## Hudabear

tonyzoc said:


> The studies I've seen show of your smoking 1 cigar a day on average your odd of getting cancer are no different than the general population...you need to smoke 4 or 5 a day to see any increase and even that is very small increase. This doesn't even take into account the meditative and calming aspects of cigars...which probably does more good that smoking them does bad.
> 
> Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk


^THIS! From the sounds of the language of some of the BOTL/SOTL and some of my suppressed thoughts, without cigars as an outlet we might all be cell block mates in maximum security prisons serving multiple life sentences lol


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## MikeFox87

curmudgeonista said:


> Don't forget the three unspoken goals of government:
> 
> 
> Secure ever increasing amounts of money, power, and control.
> Keep high-dollar campaign contributors happy, which primarily implies big corporate interests.
> Placate and control the public by appearing to cater to public interests, while in truth, merely pandering to it while ensuring #1 & #2 goals are met.
> 
> The FDA is obsessed with control (why is this an FDA issue and not ATFE?). It's a power grab. It's a money grab. What it's not is the end of the cigar business. Follow the money.


Crooks. All of em. I do think that a lot of this is just cigars getting caught in the crossfire between the government and the vape industry. Too bad, the boutiques don't deserve this.


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## MaxG

curmudgeonista said:


> Don't forget the three unspoken goals of government:
> 
> 
> Secure ever increasing amounts of money, power, and control.
> Keep high-dollar campaign contributors happy, which primarily implies big corporate interests.
> Placate and control the public by appearing to cater to public interests, while in truth, merely pandering to it while ensuring #1 & #2 goals are met.
> The FDA is obsessed with control (why is this an FDA issue and not ATFE?). It's a power grab. It's a money grab. What it's not is the end of the cigar business. Follow the money.


Gospel. And here's the appendix to that tome:

4) The official position of the government is we hate tobacco
5) Since we are liars, you should assume our official positions are lies
6) Tobacco is the source of huge tax revenue. We love tax revenue.
7) We get much more tax revenue from cigarettes than from cigars
8 ) Tobacco in general and cigarettes in particular have very inelastic demand curves
9) People don't tend to get physically addicted to cigars the way they do cigarettes
10) If we do this (FDA BS) we can
10a) Seem like we're honest in discouraging tobacco use
10b) Still rake in loads of taxes
10c) Still take contributions (bribes) from Big Tobacco, who has the resources and temperament to keep forking it over
10d) Do nothing to curtail cigarette use, which in addition to raking in tax revenue also removes Social Security payers from the population before they ever have a chance to withdraw the immense amounts of money they've thrown into the pot.

Capiche?

- MG


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## MikeFox87

MaxG for the win


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## Jade Falcon

I'm a little late to this debate. But I've seen the links posted.

To be honest, I'm not sure what to think of this.

Part of me thinks that it's all a big to do over nothing on our part. I think that there will be challenges in court and in Congress (although that will be harder in Congress if that broom rider on the Democratic Ticket gets elected). When the manufacturers tell the FDA that their ingredient is "Tobacco", how are they going to deny an application for that? Otherwise, they'd have to deny applications for ALL tobacco products too.

And that's not gonna happen. Ever.

I think, eventually, they'll exempt Premium Cigars by weeding out non-premium dime-store garbage by requiring that the standards for Premium Cigars be met, or they'll be denied.

I think that this is all a big to do over nothing.

However, I am not so naive as to believe that this is good for any of us. I HATE big government. They **** around with our gun rights, and now they're ****ing around with the personal choice as adults on what we smoke.

Is the FDA regulating Cannabis? And if not, why? Having smoked both, I believe weed is far more harmful than tobacco, and teens REALLY ARE smoking it. Not this made-up fantasy by these idiots that teens just walk into Cigar Shops and buy $14 Padrons.

Ultimately, I see challenges to this going before Congress and the Courts that will postpone any FDA regulations for years to come.


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## TonyBrooklyn

curmudgeonista said:


> Don't forget the three unspoken goals of government:
> 
> 
> Secure ever increasing amounts of money, power, and control.
> Keep high-dollar campaign contributors happy, which primarily implies big corporate interests.
> Placate and control the public by appearing to cater to public interests, while in truth, merely pandering to it while ensuring #1 & #2 goals are met.
> 
> The FDA is obsessed with control (why is this an FDA issue and not ATFE?). It's a power grab. It's a money grab. What it's not is the end of the cigar business. Follow the money.


F D A = Farking Dumb Arseholes:vs_laugh:


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