# Q: When will the madness stop?



## GuitarDan (Nov 26, 2009)

A: never- they're just getting warmed up.

First the RYO tax, then pipes and cigars to follow.
Now THIS: Tax soda, pizza to cut obesity, researchers say - Diet and nutrition- msnbc.com


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## DSturg369 (Apr 6, 2008)

Our Govt has truly got nuts.


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## gibson_es (Jan 23, 2010)

i like the gun laws, but not enough. if this shit keeps going, i will be hunting a job out of the u.s.

i thought ireland. but there smoking laws suck....

i should look up the gun and smoking laws in these countries:

scotland
canada
south africa
thailand (money goes a long way here)
jamaica
bahamas


yep. the U.S. is going to shit, i think we need to take mars before it gets claimed. just make the whole damn planet what we want, equal taxes, smoke anywere, drink anywere.......who's with me... any rocket scientists or billionaires here?.....



no?......

ok.....


plan B....

anybody got a plan B?


ok, plan B is:
make plan C


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## Cigary (Oct 19, 2007)

I've been looking at Austrailia or Canada,,maybe Italy for a new home. The madness just keeps going and I don't see it stopping for the next 3 years. I can hardly wait to see how the new healthcare program shakes down.


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## Davetopay (Jan 19, 2008)

Regulation and taxation of everything you do in your daily life is just around the corner. It all comes down to the nationalized health care plan. If ANYTHING you do could result in a cost to the system, it could be regulated or taxed. The sports you participate in, the car you drive, the food you eat, the places you visit....everything can be lumped under a health care risk based upon some actuarial table. 

The fat tax has been proposed in the past year or two, as has a tax based upon the miles you drive each year. I was thinking Brazil might be nice......


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## plexiprs (Nov 18, 2005)

> Q: When will the madness stop?


When we stop electing and re-electing crooks, thieves, and scoundrels to be our "representatives" and run our country.

Vote them out, impeach, indict, convict, and imprison them. But get _them_ the f**k out of *OUR* government!! Start at that big white house in DC that we are the owners and landlords of, and go all the way down to local crooks.


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## Mr.Lordi (May 20, 2007)

Taxes aren't the answer in the case of obesity, its the processed foods, particularity, High Fructose Corn Syrup and the ilk, which slows down the metabolism and has high incidence in causing diabetes. (among other things)

But this is the American Government we're talking about, and taxing everything is the way to stop it. Apparently if you're a politician, reading is a sin. :/

While I generally agree with trying to get America motivated to lose weight, if a person wants to, I dissagree with tax as a solution because a lot of lower income families rely on food like pizza for a quick fix meals to feed a family, because it is cheap and easy after a day of working.

Granted, eating better isn't as expensive as lots of people seem to think, but it can be time consuming. It is easier to order Papa John's than cook when one is tired.

and while I am a live and let live kind of person and every person has a right to decide what they put into their bodies, the government would be a lot better off getting the FDA to restrict the use of things like High Fructose corn syrup if they truly cared enough about the obesity problem and not about making more money. 

My $00.02


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## tpharkman (Feb 20, 2010)

Buy them up now boys because when every activity you participate in becomes public record, on the account of govt interest to protect the taxpayers paying for nationalizaed health insurance, you wont want to see the premiums botl will be paying.

We will all be without personal vehicles, wearing the same colored jumpsuits, and enjoying the same govt tofu 3 squares a day. Where is Frank, Dean, and Sammy Davis when we need them. I have to believe they wouldn't go the way the looney entertainment establishment continues to take us today.

If it were not for the druglords I would be intrigued by the possibilities of settling down in ole Mexico.


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## gibson_es (Jan 23, 2010)

yea. but the y dont care about our health. at least not yet. they just care about our money....

now, if this new healthcare crap gets past, then they will care about our health, but only because at that point health is money.


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## drastic_quench (Sep 12, 2008)

Let's keep this out of the pipe forum. I come here to relax, not argue politics. Puff does have an of a sub forum for this line of thread I believe.


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## ComicalFerret (Feb 10, 2010)

I am considering moving to iceland, the houses are cheap, gun laws are relaxed (not sure about smoking). but their gov. went bankrupt recently.


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## gibson_es (Jan 23, 2010)

ComicalFerret said:


> I am considering moving to iceland, the houses are cheap, gun laws are relaxed (not sure about smoking). but their gov. went bankrupt recently.


iceland sounds nice.....lol. and dont that just mean your money will go farther there? idk, maybe not.


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## MarkC (Jul 4, 2009)

Holy crap, did you guys even bother to read the link? It's not politicians suggesting this, it's doctors. I know kneejerk reactionism is the in thing on both sides of the political spectrum these days, but jeez...

This has been suggested often over the past twenty years by doctors who have no business addressing tax policy in the first place; this whole concept of taxation as punishment is obscene.

Edited to add:

I'm sorry if the above seems like a snide response to the thread. I frequent two bulletin boards on the web, this one and a music one. The music one leans left, this one leans right. Today I find a thread on the music thread accusing Sarah Palin of being the worlds biggest hypocrite because her parents took her to Canadian doctors before she was even old enough to start elementary school, and here I discover that, because some doctors who have no public policy input at all come up with a lamebrained idea, that Obama is after our pizza. Both boards have great people, but I've got to tell you, both would also be a lot better if people would just pass on the political silliness...


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## Mr.Lordi (May 20, 2007)

MarkC said:


> Holy crap, did you guys even bother to read the link? It's not politicians suggesting this, it's doctors. I know kneejerk reactionism is the in thing on both sides of the political spectrum these days, but jeez..





from the article said:


> policymakers are increasingly looking at taxing as a way to address obesity on a population level.





from the article said:


> California and Philadelphia have introduced legislation to tax soft drinks to try to limit consumption.


I think it was these two things that sparked the uproar. Not the idea that Obama wants to take our pizza. Just more of the same "sin taxes" and the overall idea that the Government might even be thinking about it.

Clearly the Government has tried to tax soda, even if it is on just a state level. I know Maine tried a new beverage tax about a year or so ago, and it was shot down.

Can you blame the backlash, though? It seems like every time you wake, they are tryin' to screw with something you love.

I get what you're saying, and I agree. Jumping to conclusions leads to nowhere and seems to be the new defense both sides have.

Not that it matters, but I'm a moderate by the way.  lol


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## DSturg369 (Apr 6, 2008)

The last time we, as a people got tired of the BS we had a little spat and ended up with the name "United States Of America" instead of simply the "New World Colony's". I'm just saying.


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## phatmax (Mar 18, 2009)

Cigary said:


> I've been looking at Austrailia or Canada,,maybe Italy for a new home. The madness just keeps going and I don't see it stopping for the next 3 years. I can hardly wait to see how the new healthcare program shakes down.


DO NOT do Italy. They are going to go the way of Greece shortly. I have relatives there and it is turning into a fascist police state while going broke at the same time.

Their debt is 125% of they yearly GDP. Essentially they are broke and there is no way to pay the debt.

Australia is just about as retarded as the UK with laws, regulations and taxes.

Canada is not too bad, they are starting to figure out that their national healthcare system is broken and are looking at privatization to fix it..... Ironic, huh?

But really, the 50-60% of this country that still believe in the America that used to be,...we need you to stay and help.

This is still the last, most free place on earth. Lets get rid of the RATS that are chewing at our foundation and get back to our PRINCIPALS and MORALS.


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## phatmax (Mar 18, 2009)

By the way, I saw something that was GREAT.

Please refer to Healthcare in all your conversations and correspondence from now on as:

*HealthCONTROL.*

The psychology of that is massively powerful.


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## Mr.Lordi (May 20, 2007)

I found the cure for the obesity epidemic!

Behold, the little Jack exercise routine!

YouTube - Jack's Exercise Video

lol


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## Kevin Keith (Jan 24, 2010)

Excellent post Phatmax.


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## bigdaddychester (Feb 22, 2010)

With more and more families finding themselves in the situation of having to accept government aid, food stamps, wic, etc. I think it's time for someone with some common sense to evaluate what can and can't be purchased while participating on this program. Pop, cookies, junk food in general should be excluded. Allowing soap, deoderant, and a bottle of shampoo would be nice. Obviously, you could cut down on the child obesity by giving a kid a handful of grapes or a banana rather than a pack of gummy bears and a Mountain Dew.


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## MarkC (Jul 4, 2009)

bigdaddychester said:


> With more and more families finding themselves in the situation of having to accept government aid, food stamps, wic, etc. I think it's time for someone with some common sense to evaluate what can and can't be purchased while participating on this program.


Ooooo...you've hit a sore spot for me. I work as a bookkeeper in a grocery store. Doesn't pay that great, but I get by. But it sure is infuriating to see people on food stamps loading up on ribeyes while I'm having some kind of hamburger casserole to stretch the budget. But that's another topic...


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## Bryant (Mar 9, 2010)

Here's one, our national debt in 1971 was only $75 million dollars. Today, well, it's ridiculous. They will continue to get more aggressive with regulation if it means bringing in new tax dollars. However I don't see this any different with any other nation. The more debt the government packs on, the more means they attempt to extract taxes out of their subjects. Most countries now are either in the beginning stages of hyper inflation or on the down turn. Give it five more years and we will see at least a half dozen "1st world" nations crumble. Simply, they have leveraged to much debt and can't keep spreading it around by selling bonds when their buyers are equally facing financial difficulty.


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## plexiprs (Nov 18, 2005)

MarkC said:


> Ooooo...you've hit a sore spot for me. I work as a bookkeeper in a grocery store. Doesn't pay that great, but I get by. But it sure is infuriating to see people on food stamps loading up on ribeyes while I'm having some kind of hamburger casserole to stretch the budget. But that's another topic...


Worse, watching them go through the check-out paying for their Ribeyes with food stamps (courtesy of YOU and ME) while they and all of their kids chat CONTINUOUSLY on their cell phones ..... But, I digress ..... ........ :focus:


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## Mad Hatter (Apr 8, 2007)

drastic_quench said:


> Let's keep this out of the pipe forum. I come here to relax, not argue politics. Puff does have an of a sub forum for this line of thread I believe.


What? :bored: Are you the babysitter this week?


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## bigdaddychester (Feb 22, 2010)

MarkC said:


> Ooooo...you've hit a sore spot for me. I work as a bookkeeper in a grocery store. Doesn't pay that great, but I get by. But it sure is infuriating to see people on food stamps loading up on ribeyes while I'm having some kind of hamburger casserole to stretch the budget. But that's another topic...


I spent several years through high school and college working for a supermarket. I saw many abuses of the system. I also saw how a woman could stretch her alotment for the month while feeding 2 kids. It was amazing watching her shop. I just think before the government goes out taxing everything to the point where it's no longer affordable, maybe they should refine the way they do business.

Does any one know how they'll pay for stuff if everyone stopped smoking, gambling, drinking, buying fuel? I mean, that is the new initiative now, right? Pay taxes on everything until you stop doing it.


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## Z.Kramer (Jul 2, 2009)

Taxation- to raise revenue, or to modify behavior? Hmm...


By the way, our healthcare system is not a problem, it is the best in the world. Health insurance system is the problem.

Obama and his administrations's healthcare plan kind of seems to me like burning down your house because the heat is broken.


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## Dan-Hur (Feb 26, 2010)

Maybe I shouldn't enter in here, but I can't help it. My sister worked as a cashier and saw the different colors of the welfare spectrum. She saw people who would buy food with food stamps and then sell it back to their neighbors for profit, people who cheated the system without so much as a blush. She also saw people who could barely hold their heads up as they handed her the food card. I myself knew a woman who had several different children with several different fathers, getting both government aid and child support to live on. Last I knew, her husband was a drug-dealing pimp(naturally, that income isn't reported and so he was technically unemployed) and they lived better than my family on the income of my father who busts his ass as an HVAC tech. I've seen quite a bit in twenty years. It's really, really frustrating to watch some people struggle to live honestly while others are content to sit around on the backs of those same hard-working people. I don't begrudge the people who genuinely need aid, I really don't, but I grew up in Cleveland and saw more fraud than genuine need. Taxes as a form of punishment are one of the many things that contradict calling America, or any country that labels itself so, a free society. In free societies, the government does not manipulate behavior through taxes, it does not cap success, it does not decide what's best for you. All of these things run directly contrary to the notion of freedom.


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## gibson_es (Jan 23, 2010)

as far as the ribeyes go, i wanna know what the hell kinda foodstamps they got? lol

i was a cashier back in highschool, and maybe its just my area, but most of the people that had them, seem to need them. and they dont always give that much.

i have been raised in a family that is against things like that. taking money for doing nothing while the others do all the work. but after the economy as sent its "tornado" through, my family has found many members out of a job, i was still working though, until i broke my leg, then i lost my job. and now i cant find another. me and my wife have talked about food stamps, and its a hard thing for me, because i have been against it for so long. and i feel if we decide to get them, that i will have to stop my cigar hobby, because its not fair to spend $100 or so a month on stogies when your telling the government you need money. so as of right now, we havent done it yet. but my wife did go through the process. so if we decide to do it, we will know what to expect. and we may be eligible for $350 a month, i dont know about you, but $87 a week isnt going to get you ribeyes for dinner every night. maybe im just a pig , but right now we spend a little more then that a week, and im eating eggs, ramen noodles, cheap hamburgers, turkey sandwiches, and pancakes, (note, these are pretty much the cheapest things i can find at walmart). 

but again, i dont think i will be doing it, because if i do, i will feel the need to stop buying cigars until i can find a job. and lets face it, i would rather have stogies then stakes....


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## Mante (Dec 25, 2009)

*A: Not in my lifetime.*


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## phatmax (Mar 18, 2009)

Tashaz said:


> *A: Not in my lifetime.*


That is what I am afraid of, as it means that my daughter will suffer, too.

And for the Aussie's and especially Brits..... I feel so bad for those of you who still cling to freedom and personal responsibility.

The news I see from the UK and Oz....it makes me very sad to think of all those men and women and even children who sacrificed and died 60-70 years ago to defeat fascism and tyranny....only to have their children VOTE IT INTO POWER.


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

phatmax said:


> DO NOT do Italy. They are going to go the way of Greece shortly. I have relatives there and it is turning into a fascist police state while going broke at the same time.
> 
> Their debt is 125% of they yearly GDP. Essentially they are broke and there is no way to pay the debt.
> 
> ...


To late for that i fear the foundation is gone. Years of abuse of the system, abuse of power. Maybe if America hit rock bottom, or revolution she might be saved. No jobs no manufacturing, sadly she is the land of consumption. I laugh when people say America is in the service industry. Service to what?:shocked:


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## Mante (Dec 25, 2009)

phatmax said:


> *Australia is just about as retarded as the UK with laws, regulations and taxes.
> 
> And for the Aussie's and especially Brits..... I feel so bad for those of you who still cling to freedom and personal responsibility.
> 
> The news I see from the UK and Oz....it makes me very sad to think of all those men and women and even children who sacrificed and died 60-70 years ago to defeat fascism and tyranny....only to have their children VOTE IT INTO POWER.*


Just read through the thread. Nice to see you are so superior. Thanks for that. From what I see, the reason that you are wrong about our standard of living is exactly the premise you suggest, You Watch The News And Believe It!


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## gibson_es (Jan 23, 2010)

....thats why i dont watch the news......actually, not its not.....but it sounds good. lol. i get my news from yahoo, lol. guess im sure thats much better.


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## phatmax (Mar 18, 2009)

Tashaz said:


> Just read through the thread. Nice to see you are so superior. Thanks for that. From what I see, the reason that you are wrong about our standard of living is exactly the premise you suggest, You Watch The News And Believe It!


I am not saying we/I am superior, we are headed down the same path that you guys are...

How much are your tobacco taxes? Gas prices? How is your freedom of gun ownership?

The news I am talking about is the Aussie and Brit news about insane laws restricting everything, banning everything, taxing everything, The follies at NHS, garbage taxes, putting camera's in people's homes (for the safety of the children), having "food police" come to your house and look in your fridge and teach you proper nutrition. (most of this is Brit)

I know it is not everyone that lives there fault, I am just saying that you guys are somewhat further ahead of us on the arc of totalitarian rule.

CCTV, Big Brother stuff.

Your "standard of living" is not bad, but the restrictions on basic freedoms and massive taxation and public debt are not what would be considered great. 
I was in Italy a few months ago, and it was a lovely place, I had a good time, etc.

However, my aunt does translation work for the Government. Sometimes from her house. The government would station police outside her house to make sure that she was not "doing anything wrong" while working.

The Italian government is looking at restricting YOUTUBE posts by Italian citizens, by forcing EACH youtube post to be screened and APPROVED by the government.

That is NOT freedom, even if you have a nice "standard of living".

This was not meant as an attack on YOU, but the people writing insane laws, boosting taxes, spying on citizens, etc.... got there by being voted in.

Same as here.

People are selling out their liberty for a temporary measure of "safety"...ending up with elite fascists in control.


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## phatmax (Mar 18, 2009)

TonyBrooklyn said:


> To late for that i fear the foundation is gone. Years of abuse of the system, abuse of power. Maybe if America hit rock bottom, or revolution she might be saved. No jobs no manufacturing, sadly she is the land of consumption. I laugh when people say America is in the service industry. Service to what?:shocked:


That is a terrible burden that we have put on ourselves, through allowing the people that are supposed to work for US and represent US in the Halls of Power, walk all over us and tell us how to live our lives.

You are right about our lack of value-added industries that take a material and make it into something more valuable and important. 70 something percent of our entire economy is "service" simply shuffling money about in a vast shell game of NON-production.

95% or so of all clothing articles sold in the USA are made overseas.

It is insanity that we would not be able to even clothe our own citizens.

But, I think, deep down there are a lot of Americans that are simply trying to get by, that keep their opinions to themselves, that truely believe in what America used to be. A shining beacon of real hope, real promise and real FREEDOM.

Over the past 60 years, that has been corrupted to the point of being almost unrecognizable. We make great strides in areas like civil rights, then turn right around and start dictating how each citizen should live, eat and be merry.

We are not perfect, but the basic structure of our country, the Constitution is still sound. It is simply being ignored and co-opted by being called a "living document"....which is just an excuse to allow lawyers to use legal terms to twist the real meaning of the document.

It WILL get worse before it ever gets better, but I believe that the real American dream and Spirit is quietly alive.


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## Mr.Lordi (May 20, 2007)

plexiprs said:


> Worse, watching them go through the check-out paying for their Ribeyes with food stamps (courtesy of YOU and ME) while they and all of their kids chat CONTINUOUSLY on their cell phones ..... But, I digress ..... ........ :focus:


You do realize that not every one who has food stamps is out of work, right?

Food Stamps are used by a lot of lower income families, who work. thus taxes get taken out of their checks for programs like that, too!

It can almost be see as if they are getting their tax money back, basically.

Its not like Welfare where the person is sitting at home collecting the tax dollars you get taken away.

Do some people buck the system? Yes. Is that the majority of them? No. Do a lot of them exist? Yes, unfortunately. Does that mean all of them are? No.

I've dealt with people on both ends of the spectrum. So I know what I'm talking about.


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## phatmax (Mar 18, 2009)

Mr.Lordi said:


> You do realize that not every one who has food stamps is out of work, right?
> 
> Food Stamps are used by a lot of lower income families, who work. thus taxes get taken out of their checks for programs like that, too!
> 
> ...


Don't forget anyone who pays income tax that is on Food Stamps will get all that money back when they file their tax return. So they pay into the system, get food stamps, then get the money they paid into the system BACK. So they ARE getting something for nothing.


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## Mr.Lordi (May 20, 2007)

phatmax said:


> Don't forget anyone who pays income tax that is on Food Stamps will get all that money back when they file their tax return. So they pay into the system, get food stamps, then get the money they paid into the system BACK. So they ARE getting something for nothing.


Yes, but doesn't that work both ways?

So in essence, we're still not really paying for peoples food stamps at all, our money is just being temporarily borrowed by the government and returned to us at a later date.


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## Frinkiac7 (Dec 12, 2008)

We're turning into an over-regulated, nonproductive European-style welfare state. This is the goal of Obama & Co. 

They want to sacrifice individual freedom and economic productivity in exchange for taking care of every single person and making out lives more equal. That is their idea of "helping." They think they are really doing what's best for us. It's not insidious in and of itself, but the EFFECTS of their long-term goals certainly are, and I argue run contrary to our traditional American way of life, and thinking about ourselves. 

Don't go to Europe or Australia, I'd argue. You will find just as restrictive laws, Europe especially. My personal plan is to try and "hang on" here for as long as possible and see how things go...it's always been my dream to work hard for 10-20 years here and then take all of my money, sell everything, and relocate to some other country where living is cheaper. We'll see if I can make it. Your best bet for "personal freedom" is a "cheap" country where the government simply doesn't have the resources or the respect of its citizens to enforce these kinds of laws.


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## smelvis (Sep 7, 2009)

Mr.Lordi said:


> You do realize that not every one who has food stamps is out of work, right?
> 
> Food Stamps are used by a lot of lower income families, who work. thus taxes get taken out of their checks for programs like that, too!
> 
> ...


If your a worker and not a bum like most are talking about take them, That's what they are for. I would if I had a family. Being single with many family and friends I have to many people to probably help would never need them myself. Plus they wouldn't let me have them anyway.

I would agree if your still able to afford high dollar cigars you have no right to food stamps though!

Good luck with the Job search.


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## Mr.Lordi (May 20, 2007)

smelvis said:


> If your a worker and not a bum like most are talking about take them, That's what they are for. I would if I had a family. Being single with many family and friends I have to many people to probably help would never need them myself. Plus they wouldn't let me have them anyway.
> 
> I would agree if your still able to afford high dollar cigars you have no right to food stamps though!
> 
> Good luck with the Job search.


Dude, are you suggesting I'm on food stamps?


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## phatmax (Mar 18, 2009)

Mr.Lordi said:


> Yes, but doesn't that work both ways?
> 
> So in essence, we're still not really paying for peoples food stamps at all, our money is just being temporarily borrowed by the government and returned to us at a later date.


No, I pay much more in taxes then I get back. The people paying income tax, but who are still on food stamps pay much less then the value of the stamps they get, plus they get their money back. Therefore, you and I are paying for other people's food stamps.


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## MarkC (Jul 4, 2009)

Mr.Lordi said:


> Do some people buck the system? Yes. Is that the majority of them? No. Do a lot of them exist? Yes, unfortunately. Does that mean all of them are? No.
> .


I hope my post about foodstamps didn't lead you to believe that I was accusing all, or even a majority, of those who receive foodstamps of abusing the system. It's definitely a minority.


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## Mr.Lordi (May 20, 2007)

MarkC said:


> I hope my post about foodstamps didn't lead you to believe that I was accusing all, or even a majority, of those who receive foodstamps of abusing the system. It's definitely a minority.


No, wasn't that at all. Frankly, it was plexiprs post that I took the wrong way.

I actually removed my self from the discussion earlier because I thought it was just going to do a nose-dive from there, and frankly, most everyone here are decent men and woman, and I didn't want to see the thread get into a heated argument.

I love discussing politics, but no good ever comes of it. lol


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## gibson_es (Jan 23, 2010)

heres a question. who here thinks that if the government was to get rid of the food stamps. that you would pay less in taxes?


i dont believe you will. so sure "were paying" for food stamps. but if we dont pay for that, then its something else. we loose the money ether way. at least its going back to the people and not giving our senators ferrari's (just BMW's).


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## GuitarDan (Nov 26, 2009)

WHAT I WAS TRYING TO IMPLY WAS THAT THERE WILL BE NO SATIATING THE "SIN POLICE" OR GOVERNMENT APPETITE FOR TAXATION.

I'm sorry I posted this thread as it appears to have turned into a dicey social commentary on low income families.


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## gibson_es (Jan 23, 2010)

dont be sorry, its a good debate. no one is kiiling anyone, or telling anyone to **** off, so its all good. were all men here.


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## smelvis (Sep 7, 2009)

GuitarDan said:


> WHAT I WAS TRYING TO IMPLY WAS THAT THERE WILL BE NO SATIATING THE "SIN POLICE" OR GOVERNMENT APPETITE FOR TAXATION.
> 
> I'm sorry I posted this thread as it appears to have turned into a dicey social commentary on low income families.


I agree with first quote, they will never leave us alone!!


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## Diodon nepheligina (Nov 5, 2009)

Now that many of us here have vented some frustration, how's about we all pick out a nice baccy, load up a favorite pipe, sit back and relax and have a smoke...ipe:ipe:

It'll be BBF for me tonight...


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## plexiprs (Nov 18, 2005)

Mr.Lordi said:


> You do realize that not every one who has food stamps is out of work, right?


Never said that, but yes, I do realize that Food Stamps are meant as an assistance, and for the majority used as that when it is truly needed. My post was meant to show that some people, and families, have no perspective or ability to prioritize in that they _need_ assistance but manage to buy everyone in the family a cell phone. I've seen seen them then pack all their groceries into a late model Lincoln in the parking lot.



Mr.Lordi said:


> Do some people buck the system? Yes. Is that the majority of them? No. Do a lot of them exist? Yes, unfortunately. Does that mean all of them are? No.
> 
> I've dealt with people on both ends of the spectrum. So I know what I'm talking about.


Me too, and glad to have someone else with that perspective here. Yes, even a perfect system will have a portion of the users "game" it even when the odds are so slim. Hell, look at the idiots that gamble in "my" casinos (contributing to my lack of a personal income tax - thanks!) They always LOSE!!! But people will game that system even with the millions poured into catching or stopping them.

We have a system that is being cheated by the players, the dealers, the pit bosses, the floor manager and the big manager. They've turned all of lives into some game for them to play on an intellectual level for nothing but self-satisfaction and bragging rights over their snobby buddyies!!


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## Mr.Lordi (May 20, 2007)

plexiprs said:


> Never said that, but yes, I do realize that Food Stamps are meant as an assistance, and for the majority used as that when it is truly needed. My post was meant to show that some people, and families, have no perspective or ability to prioritize in that they _need_ assistance but manage to buy everyone in the family a cell phone. I've seen seen them then pack all their groceries into a late model Lincoln in the parking lot.


I agree that the leeches are terrible. I've dealt with people claiming to be poor and they need a free "this, this and this" yet, they have excellent cars, cell phones, PS3, Xbox...a heck of a lot of better stuff than I have.

It is truly unfortunate. I took the post a different way this morning and felt like it was generalizing on the whole of everyone who gets food stamps.

Even I've done it before, because I get so fed up with leeches.

I meant no disrespect with my post this morning.



Diodon nepheligina said:


> Now that many of us here have vented some frustration, how's about we all pick out a nice baccy, load up a favorite pipe, sit back and relax and have a smoke...ipe:ipe:


Peterson 3 P with black coffee for me.


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## Mad Hatter (Apr 8, 2007)

gibson_es said:


> heres a question. who here thinks that if the government was to get rid of the food stamps. that you would pay less in taxes?
> 
> i dont believe you will. so sure "were paying" for food stamps. but if we dont pay for that, then its something else. we loose the money ether way. at least its going back to the people and not giving our senators ferrari's (just BMW's).


Another morsel of food for thought would that if all that government money wasn't going to grocery chains, Walmart, food companies, etc, what would that do to the economy, rate of production and related jobs, field production, supply and demand, fewer dollars generated and/or more expensive prices for the rest of us at the store. What would the outcome be?

I guess what I'm asking is exactly how much of our economy is propped up by this form of government aid.


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## Cigary (Oct 19, 2007)

I love a good healthy debate that doesn't bring snide or indelicate responses to others opinions. Sometimes people draw a conclustion on things that were never even said but rather the conclusion is drawn because everything else wasn't ruled out. If I said that a portion of the government sponsered program on food stamps were rotten somebody might want to say "Well, I know some people who are on the program who need it and you're an idiot for saying that those people don't need it." Obviously, a decent person isn't going to say that every aspect of any program is wrong. There are those areas where certain things are indeed wrong and we needn't try and put words in somebody elses sentences that were never brought out. 

As far as the "madness" out there we can all attest there is enough out there to drive the sanest individual bat shit crazy. There are people who will "use" any program to get a free meal, free healthcare, free money, etc. It's part of the price of living in a fallen world and people will take advantage of anything.

Having said that there are people here who are able to have a debate on subject matters where they are respectful and deliberate in their actions in addressing others without becoming disagreeable. This is what adults do,,they thrive when they can communicate ideas and interract with others. For those who have an opinion and want to put it out there just remember that we can all deal with anything as long as it is put in a way where it doesn't detract from the open honest forum this is supposed to be. I'd hate to think that the only thing we can put on this forum is what a cigar looks and tastes like,,,that is going to get boring.

Respect and honoring your BOTL is the common denominator here and as long as we can do that we succeed. Talk and post with each other the way you want to be treated and this will be the best forum out there.


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## plexiprs (Nov 18, 2005)

Food Stamps FACTS:

_In December 2009, SNAP/Food Stamps participation continued to break records, rising to *38,978,382* people, an increase of 794,714 individuals from November 2009, the prior record level, and an increase of nearly 7.2 million people compared with the prior December.
--------------
Approximately *one in eight Americans receives *SNAP/Food Stamps.
------------------------
Total spending for SNAP/Food Stamps benefits in December 2009 due to ARRA raises, other improvements, and increased program participation rose to over $5.2 billion, bringing the estimated total economic stimulative impact of SNAP/Food Stamps *benefits to more than $9.6 billion in December 2009.*_

State by State Analysis


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## bigdaddychester (Feb 22, 2010)

I believe that perhaps my first post in this thread may have fostered the point we are at right now. I really wanted to emphasize that fact that taxing soft drinks as a way to curb bad eating habits really isn't that great of an idea. Change was what most of this country elected. I would like to see a government program that is directly responsible for the health, nutrition, and sustenance of it's recipients step up to the plate and show me they mean business by Changing the items that are available. I can afford to pay a few extra cents on the dollar for pop, heck, I live in a state that charges sales tax on anything you buy at the grocery store, but raising the tax on it as a form of behavior modification is irresponsible as well as an impediment to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness.....

I think I'm gonna have some McCranies Past Masters


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## gibson_es (Jan 23, 2010)

Mad Hatter said:


> Another morsel of food for thought would that if all that government money wasn't going to grocery chains, Walmart, food companies, etc, what would that do to the economy, rate of production and related jobs, field production, supply and demand, fewer dollars generated and/or more expensive prices for the rest of us at the store. What would the outcome be?
> 
> I guess what I'm asking is exactly how much of our economy is propped up by this form of government aid.





plexiprs said:


> Food Stamps FACTS:
> 
> _In December 2009, SNAP/Food Stamps participation continued to break records, rising to *38,978,382* people, an increase of 794,714 individuals from November 2009, the prior record level, and an increase of nearly 7.2 million people compared with the prior December.
> --------------
> ...


the second quote, seems to support the first. and i agree, you think the economy is bad now, let them remove the food stamps, then see how many more people will be needing them after the job losses.

personally, i think that the next time we decide to borrow 500 billion from china, we should just split it between all U.S. citizens living here (or over sea's fighting) over 18

acording to the US census bureau, in 2008 we had 304,059,724 people.

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html

for math, i will round that up to 305,000,000

24% are under 18

thats about 76,000,000

so we have 229,000,000 people left

thats a little over $2000 a person

...yea, $2000, im good with that. lol

hell, if they gave me that kind of money, i think i would be kind enough NOT to buy cubans with it (therefore, giving money to another country, and defeating the purpose of the idea).....ok, maybe just one box.....lol.

im sure this theory has more holes in it then then a strip club on a friday night, but its a nice thought.

and for those wanting to disprove this, thats cool. i would love to see why it wont work, but keep in mind, this is more of a joke then a serious argument. because the number one problem is, it involves borrowing more money, and we need not do that (but, sadly, im sure we will eventually)


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## plexiprs (Nov 18, 2005)

_... more holes in it then then a strip club on a friday night ..._

eace: ​


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## Mad Hatter (Apr 8, 2007)

bigdaddychester said:


> I believe that perhaps my first post in this thread may have fostered the point we are at right now. I really wanted to emphasize that fact that taxing soft drinks as a way to curb bad eating habits really isn't that great of an idea. Change was what most of this country elected. I would like to see a government program that is directly responsible for the health, nutrition, and sustenance of it's recipients step up to the plate and show me they mean business by Changing the items that are available. I can afford to pay a few extra cents on the dollar for pop, heck, I live in a state that charges sales tax on anything you buy at the grocery store, but raising the tax on it as a form of behavior modification is irresponsible as well as an impediment to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness.....
> 
> I think I'm gonna have some McCranies Past Masters


The bad thing about junk food is not only does it have an addictive quality but it also serves as an appetitie suppressant. I can get hungry and eat a meal and it'll tie me over to the next meal or I can eat a candy bar or two
and get the same result. Eating a candy bar is much more convenient and at times much more possible.

Someone mentioned the madness of all this legislation. Kinda seems to suit the times. Everywhere I look I see madness as people strapped to a clock try to get through life without losing their minds as they run non-stop and their only break is a few hours sleep a night or the annual vacation. So many people are on drugs these days just to help them live in this unnatural environment. That's madness. So far as it pushing people to their limits and bringing out the best and how that's good for society and all that shit (not that anyone has said that yet), maybe that's true to a degree but hardly as a whole.

Does anybody else think this emoticon looks like a blowjob? ray:


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## Mr.Lordi (May 20, 2007)

Mad Hatter said:


> The bad thing about junk food is not only does it have an addictive quality but it also serves as an appetite suppressant. I can get hungry and eat a meal and it'll tie me over to the next meal or I can eat a candy bar or two
> and get the same result. Eating a candy bar is much more convenient and at times much more possible.


I'll agree that convenience is a big factor in the wrong stuff people choose to eat, but if people took 5 minutes a day to educate themselves on food choices, they would be better off, but too many people stay in ignorance.

How many people jerk around on Facebook at work? tons, I am sure. Yet, people can't take 5 minutes and Google "Healthy Snacks"?

Beef Jerky is a really good snack. It is high in Protein and very low in fat and little sugar. Protein makes you fuller, longer and promotes fat loss as well as building muscle (if you work out)

The worst thing about beef jerky is that it is high in sodium if you buy it from a convenience store. If you bought a lot of it at a health food store, one can cut the sodium.

The price of it seems high, but think about how many candy bars a person consumes in a day for a snack.

1.00 a bar X 2 per day at average, and @ 5 days a week = 10 dollars. times that by 4 weeks in an average month and that is 40 dollars in frickin' candy.

$40 could probably buy a good supply of beef jerky that will last the month.

Between ignorance and convenience, is it any wonder America is getting fatter and fatter? No. Americans ignorance to fatty foods is about the same with Africa's ignorance to the aids crisis. That is not even hyperbole.

The biggest culprit is sugar, particularity, processed sugars, like I said in an earlier post.

Processed sugars seem to slow down metabolism. Not just that, but excess sugar gets turned into fat and stored, resulting in weight gain.

We're not even factoring in the sodas most people consume in a day, either and then the amount of alcoholic drinks they take it at night.

Did you know even Pork Rinds are a better snack for you than what most people eat? Way better for you than chips.

I've been on a lifestyle change the last month or so, so I am digesting (pun intended) tons of information on food and what not and believe it or not, my fat ass has lost a bit of weight and I hardly ever exercise. (its not even consistently once a week, even)

By the way, This post isn't aimed directly at you, more like your post just got me spitballin' ideas onto the page. lol


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## plexiprs (Nov 18, 2005)

This was just in the news day before yesterday ... really a sad state of the economy ... really sad ...

_There are now 2.56 million Floridians on food stamps.

More than one out of every eight residents, 13.6 percent of the population, rely on the program to help put food on the table. And that number has been growing steadily for almost three years, despite some signs the national economic outlook is brightening.

"These are people who have never been on benefits in their entire life - they're electricians, they're plumbers," said George Sheldon, secretary of the Department of Children & Families, which administers the program. "It is a whole new population of poor people that have never been poor before."

To qualify for food stamps, Floridians must make 133 percent of the federal poverty level or less. For a family of four, that's $28,668 a year.

Maximum monthly benefits are $200 for a single person and $668 for a family of four. _



> The biggest culprit is sugar, particularity, processed sugars, like I said in an earlier post.


No, the biggest culprit is lazy, self-absorbed, self-indulgent Americans who have become addicted to fast, easy, and cheap versus good .... Sugar makes a great scapegoat, but who is it that holds the gun to their head forcing the sugar down their throats? That's right, no one, they choose their path based on the effort involved .... People, as a whole, are far more irresponsible these days and that isn't exclusive to their dietary choices ..... next, talk about modern parenting, or lack thereof ......


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## Mr.Lordi (May 20, 2007)

plexiprs said:


> No, the biggest culprit is lazy, self-absorbed, self-indulgent Americans who have become addicted to fast, easy, and cheap versus good .... Sugar makes a great scapegoat, but who is it that holds the gun to their head forcing the sugar down their throats? That's right, no one, they choose their path based on the effort involved .... People, as a whole, are far more irresponsible these days and that isn't exclusive to their dietary choices ..... next, talk about modern parenting, or lack thereof ......


I do believe I mentioned that personal responsibility was in play, or I at least I implied it by saying not only sugar, but ignorance comes into play because people won't educate themselves.

Sugar, in excess, is the culprit for excessive weight gain, but people still have to make the choice to consume it.

No where do I advocate getting rid of sugar, it is necessary to our diets. Well, not processed sugar, but normal, everyday sugar. Like Granulated sugar or those found in fruits and in moderation.

But, there needs to be personal responsibility on both sides, including the corporations who produce this food.

Take for instance, Mcdonalds, who has a commercial that shows tons of vegetables and other healthy images throughout the whole ad.

Why would McDonalds do such a thing? It subliminal advertising to correlate Mcdonalds with being OK with a healthy diet, when that is total BS.

There is nothing healthy about Mcdonalds,even their salads are bad for you. Salads, frickin salads? come on!

I think commercials like that are irresponsible and prey on the ignorance of the masses. if we're going to hold tobacco companies and alcohol companies responsible for their advertisements then the same standards must be applied to places like Mcdonalds, or not at all. It is hypocritical to do other wise.

If Honda made a commercial flashing images of safety and top quality standards on one of their cars, but then it turns out the car they were advertising was a death trap, they would be sued and held accountable, right? Well, the pendulum swings both ways.

Mcdonalds isn't the only place that does that. Tons of foods that say "reduce fat" or other things, people assume must be healthy, so they consume more, because, frankly, America is filled with morons who can't think for themselves.

If we're going to play the personal responsibility card, then EVERYONE needs to be held to those standards and not just the mindless consumers.


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## Mad Hatter (Apr 8, 2007)

Mr.Lordi said:


> I'll agree that convenience is a big factor in the wrong stuff people choose to eat, but if people took 5 minutes a day to educate themselves on food choices, they would be better off, but too many people stay in ignorance.
> 
> How many people jerk around on Facebook at work? tons, I am sure. Yet, people can't take 5 minutes and Google "Healthy Snacks"?
> 
> ...


I don't much believe in putting everything into a need little package but I'd ask if you've ever heard the comment (and this applies to individuals across the board) "so dumb he doesn't even know he doesn't know"? People are creatures of patterns and habits. You can talk 'til you're blue in the face but until someone has a personal revelation you're just pissing in the wind


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## plexiprs (Nov 18, 2005)

McDonald's isn't a profit-making, worldwide, multi-billion dollar business just because of "subliminal" advertising. They actually sell something people demand, and they seem to not want to do without it.

Old, young, rich, poor, smart and stupid; they can all be found at a McDonalds.

Blame the evil _dealer_ it ain't never the poor, misguided _junkie's_ fault, is it?


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## Mr.Lordi (May 20, 2007)

plexiprs said:


> McDonald's isn't a profit-making, worldwide, multi-billion dollar business just because of "subliminal" advertising. They actually sell something people demand, and they seem to not want to do without it.
> 
> Old, young, rich, poor, smart and stupid; they can all be found at a McDonalds.
> 
> Blame the evil _dealer_ it ain't never the poor, misguided _junkie's_ fault, is it?


No one said McDonalds doesn't produce a product people want, and that subliminal advertising was what got them where they where, but that doesn't mean they can toss personal responsibility to the wind, either.

If I came out with an ad that used images of athletes pumping iron, wining races and then the final image was anabolic steroids, don't you think I should take some of the responsibility for putting out false information in an attempt to dupe people?

While the final choice of consuming a product is up to the buyer, that doesn't give a company free reign to sling BS.

There is plenty of science to back up the fact that subliminal advertising does have an effect on most consumers.

Science...now thats a naughty word to most Americans, but I digress.

To think that advertising hasn't had an effect on the way Americans act and think is like saying evolution is still just a theory.

I'm not demonizing corporations for trying to make a profit, but, like I said, if one person has to be held to a high standard, then so doesn't everyone, incuding and not limited to corperations for the false information they send out.

The blame is divided on both side. Consumers need to be smarter about what they are buying and corporations need to be more responsible about what they put into their advertising.

Because to try and equate a Big Mac and large fry with carrots is just grossly irresponsible and just as it is grossly irresponsible not to do ones research before using any product.

Fun video for whoever wants to watch it. Dr. David Kessler discussing Americans and food.

Part one:YouTube - 1 of 2 David Kessler MD The End of Overeating: Taking Control of the Insatiable American Appetite

You have to search for part two.


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## plexiprs (Nov 18, 2005)

Mr.Lordi said:


> ..... and that _*subliminal advertising was what got them where they where *_


 Nice fantasy or perhaps a deep-seated personal issue, regardless McDonalds climbed into the stratosphere of multi-million dollar revenue without much advertising in their early years, let alone this alleged "subliminal" that you wave like a smoking gun.

_Facts_, almost has hated and endangered as _Science_ ..

I f you dislike McDonalds fine, but don't be so narrow minded to see that many other companies have used the same marketing and advertising tactics. Check out Coke, Pepsi, beer companies, and funny that you have trotted out the evil tobacco empires and their "subliminal" "child-oriented" "false" advertising.

ray:


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## Mr.Lordi (May 20, 2007)

plexiprs said:


> Nice fantasy or perhaps a deep-seated personal issue, regardless McDonalds climbed into the stratosphere of multi-million dollar revenue without much advertising in their early years, let alone this alleged "subliminal" that you wave like a smoking gun.
> 
> _Facts_, almost has hated and endangered as _Science_ ..
> 
> ...


Wow, what a way to quote mine.

I said that "No one said that McDonald doesn't make a product people want or that subliminal advertising is what got them where they where today"

I could blame reading comprehension here, or I could blame the way I worded it, either way, you took something out of it that wasn't even there to begin with.

I never said their subliminal advertising was what made them what they where today.

There is no personal vendetta against Mcdonalds, I was continuing with my example, which was The Mcdonald's commercial. Do other companies do it? Duh! of course they do. You'd have to be pretty frickin' dense not to acknowledge that other companies use proven tactics to market things.

Mcdonalds was my example because its the most recent thing that I saw using advertising in this way, so I continued on with my example that I started with, to advoid confusion.

Nowhere do I even mention tobacco as evil. Now you're just making things up, using keywords, to try and portray my view of tobacco as "evil" to fit with whatever view you seem to be holding. I smoke a friggin' pipe, you honestly think I'm going to attack tobacco? *rolls eyes*

I said if tobacco companies and alcohol companies had to curb/nix their advertisements-- and last I checked, they do, because you don't see commercials for those products on T.V. anymore, do you?--then other companies need to be held to the same standard, because it would be hypocritical to do it to one thing and not hold others to the same standards.

Reading comprehension skills are almost as endangered as facts and science, no?


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## plexiprs (Nov 18, 2005)

Mr.Lordi said:


> Reading comprehension skills are almost as endangered as facts and science, no?


As are writing it seems!! Regardless, we shall not solve any of these issues here in a back and forth of words questionably written and inaccurately received.

To round the mountain and finally approach the line of the original poster; we seem to agree that the government approach of "Sin Taxing" will not result in any significant changes in the behavior and habits of people. If we see that futility, why can't the morons in with the ability to pass such ludicrous laws?

_America's nutritional nannies are at it again.

A study published earlier this week by the American Medical Association's Archives of Internal Medicine argues that if pizza and soda were more expensive, people would consume them less frequently in favor of healthier fare. Tacking an 18% tax onto pizza and soda would reduce Americans' intake of calories, which would in turn help slash health care costs by an astounding $147 billion a year, according to the study's authors. Pizza was singled out by the researchers because, like soda, its real price (versus inflation, through 2006) fell over time, while costs for seemingly healthier foods such as whole milk rose over the 20-year period reviewed in the study.
_-- SOURCE


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## Mr.Lordi (May 20, 2007)

plexiprs said:


> As are writing it seems!!


touche



> To round the mountain and finally approach the line of the original poster; we seem to agree that the government approach of "Sin Taxing" will not result in any significant changes in the behavior and habits of people. If we see that futility, why can't the morons in with the ability to pass such ludicrous laws?


I'd have to say that the simple answer is money.

The economy is still in shambles, but there are claims it is getting better. I've yet to see any improvement. The downtown area here just lost another store. It is starting to look like a ghost town.

Anyways, they might see it as a two fold answer. 1. taxing something everyone consumes in great abundance will increase cash flow. 2. People will be forced to eat less of it, due to the price hike, thus curbing obesity.

Pizza and Soda will still be the most widely consumed foods, even at a lesser rate, because why drive to a burger joint, wasting gas siting in the drive through, when dinner can come to you?

Here is a fun experiment to try. For one week, stock a fridge with cans of your favorite soda. Then, remove the soda entirely and replace it with bottles of water, like Poland Springs and replace the can of soda with a 2 litter of your favorite soda.

Now, I'd be willing to bet anything, when you stock the fridge with bottle water, you'll go for it more often then not, because our brains are hard-wired to go with convenience over having to grab a cup, pour in soda, over the pre-ready water bottle.

I've done this and I almost always went for the water.

And that is what the Government is hoping for, I think. That even with a tax hike, people will still choose convenience (soda/pizza) over having to grab a cup and fill it with water or whatever else and then go out and pick up dinner.

All the while, people will be forced to make budget cuts to maybe having pizza twice a week, rather than 3-4 times and soda consumption will be cut in half, because you're going to want to conserve the amount of soda you have, because it will be more expensive to keep running and getting a bottle and thus, weight loss will ensue.

I think that if this is what they are hopping for, then they will be in for a surprise.

Lots of lower income families rely on things like pizza to get through a night after working two jobs and picking the kids up from school.

Make it more expensive, and yeah, a lot of families will buy less of it, but they will make up for the lack of pizza with the famous dollar burgers every fast food chain offers. Wendy's, McDonald's, Burger King, ect. Which is two whole beef(or something that taste like beef) patties, slapped with cheese and condiments on a bun and packed with about a million grams of fat.(hyperbole) Or they will pick other easy, high fat foods that are cheap. Taco Bell, ect.

So while they think they are doing good, it is going to back fire on them. Less pizza buys, means pizza joints make less money, means they have to make cuts and people lose jobs. More people out of work is the last thing we want. Of course, this is worse case scenario.

I could be wrong and their plan could work. I doubt it, but anything is possible.


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## Royale Duke (Aug 14, 2009)

gibson_es said:


> i like the gun laws, but not enough. if this shit keeps going, i will be hunting a job out of the u.s.
> 
> i thought ireland. but there smoking laws suck....
> 
> ...


Plan C: Armed revolution. Because I'm seriously sick of this shit.


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## MarkC (Jul 4, 2009)

Royale Duke said:


> Plan C: Armed revolution. Because I'm seriously sick of this shit.


Back when I was a kid, I thought the country was screwed up too. Then I did a stint in the Navy, saw more of the world and realized how good we have it here.


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## gibson_es (Jan 23, 2010)

MarkC said:


> Back when I was a kid, I thought the country was screwed up too. Then I did a stint in the Navy, saw more of the world and realized how good we have it here.


good, thats a funny word when you think about it. it could be considered relitive, or it may not.

"in the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king"

do we have it good? or just better. sure, the one eyed man has it great when you see all the blind men, but does he really have it good? he still has no depth perception, after all.

so, we have it *better*, not good, IMHO. if the rest of the world kills people for smoking tobacco, and america only takes a hand off, we dont have it good....just better, because in the end, we still cant smoke our beloved pipes and cigars.

and remember folks, lets keep this a healthy DEBATE, and not a heated ARGUMENT.

so, me and royale duke is on to plan C: armed revolution (quick, before they take our rights to bare arms) who else is with us? lol

disclaimer: to any CIA, or members of "unknown government agencies aimed to stop revolutionists", we are just joking.


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## Cigary (Oct 19, 2007)

When does the bus roll up to my area? I say we march on Washington with a humidor full of cigars and camp out on the mall and have a Smoke Out!!


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## plexiprs (Nov 18, 2005)

Armed revolution is always an option that delays the benefits for at least one generation. Look back into our own history and see how long after the King of England was "evicted" before things actually changed for the better. Such an action today would take a lot of commitment and dedication. Living on the run, in the weeds, without this and that, hiding and always under threat of capture and imprisonment or worse.

I do so that as a even a remote possibility with the current societal tendency towards apathy, lethargy and general overall laziness and do nothing'ness.

Better work on a Plan G!


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## gibson_es (Jan 23, 2010)

honestly, i dont think you can lower my stander of living much more then what it is..... 


but plan G sounds nice.... i think...what is it? and what happend to D, E, and F go?


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## ghe-cl (Apr 9, 2005)

At the age of 60 I cannot recall a time when people weren't complaining about the state of the country, what the federal government was doing, how too many laws were destroying initiative, how social programs were killing self-reliance and on and on. I remember any number of noble and inspiring actions through the years at all levels and any number of malicious, hateful acts as well. "Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose."


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## gibson_es (Jan 23, 2010)

ghe said:


> At the age of 60 I cannot recall a time when people weren't complaining about the state of the country, what the federal government was doing, how too many laws were destroying initiative, how social programs were killing self-reliance and on and on. I remember any number of noble and inspiring actions through the years at all levels and any number of malicious, hateful acts as well. "Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose."


that tells me that this country has been ****ed up for at least 60 years.....lol.

i got a hunch its been longer then that though.


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## Bryant (Mar 9, 2010)

The Marxist will not stop until they've destroyed what little freedom we have remaining. This is why we must always be ever vigilant in our efforts to oppose them. Their useful idiots that vote blindly for them have no idea concept of which they are destroying this great nation and other great nations around the world.


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## Mr.Lordi (May 20, 2007)

Bryant said:


> The Marxist will not stop until they've destroyed what little freedom we have remaining. This is why we must always be ever vigilant in our efforts to oppose them. Their useful idiots that vote blindly for them have no idea concept of which they are destroying this great nation and other great nations around the world.


The problem isn't the people voting. McCain wouldn't have been any better than Obama, and I voted for McCain, only because he offered slightly less BS then Obama did...and a girl I had a thing for asked me to, but mostly, because he offered less BS, even if he was for the FDA tobacco bill.

What we need is more options in voting. This two party thing is archaic and broken. Year after year we get two choices. Corporate Shill Democrat with liberal values and Corporate Shill Republican with conservative values.

and both barley differ from one and other.

Sure, you can say, well, we have the Green Party and stuff like that, but they don't get taken seriously and are never put up as serious contenders. Its still always the 2 main party candidates that get the most exposure.

What happened to the old republicans, like Barry Goldwater? Regan hits the scene and they go extinct.

2012 is going to be a disaster. We're going to have Obama and on the opposing side...who, Sarah Palin? (Mrs. Doesn't know Africa is a continent :banghead

Only way I'm voting in 2012 is if Ron Paul runs on the Republican side....heck, I think I'd even rather vote for Cheney, even.

Maybe we'll get lucky and the Mayan Prophecy will come true. lol


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## Mad Hatter (Apr 8, 2007)

Mr.Lordi said:


> What we need is more options in voting. This two party thing is archaic and broken. Year after year we get two choices. Corporate Shill Democrat with liberal values and Corporate Shill Republican with conservative values.
> and both barley differ from one and other.
> 
> *Are you saying we have a one party system with a liberal and conservative wing? Hmmm........*
> ...


*Maybe no one else wanted to be the next Richard Nixon, blackmailed, humiliated and forced from power.*



Bryant said:


> The Marxist will not stop until they've destroyed what little freedom we have remaining. This is why we must always be ever vigilant in our efforts to oppose them. Their useful idiots that vote blindly for them have no idea concept of which they are destroying this great nation and other great nations around the world.


*I love "Marxist" comments since communism in practice is always a system where a very few people have everything and the majority have squat. I find it kind of ironic that the way the word "Marxist" is bantered around these days is almost identical to the way it was used in the National Socialist platform. It reeks of propaganda, comrade*


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## plexiprs (Nov 18, 2005)

_If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't.

And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be.

And what it wouldn't be, it would.

You see?_


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## Mister Entertainer (Oct 7, 2009)

I am very thankful to have been born and to live in the U.S. This is a great country and there will always be problems with this or that, or the govt having their fingers too deep in our business. But some of you seem as if you'll never be happy until our country is "perfect". I say f that noise, move to Avatar land. Its all about having a balance because you can never please everyone. And if you want something to happen, go out and do something, don't just sit at your computer and spew hypotheticals. I don't mean to be sour but the comments about lower income families have hurt since I have several family members who get govt aid. They are very good people and do not abuse the system. It only takes one dishonest person to lead to false stereotypes. I just take life as it comes and do what I can to make it more pleasant but still know that some things are too big for me to be able to change.


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## Cigary (Oct 19, 2007)

I don't think the brothers on here necessarily look to point fingers or to ostracize any particular group of people in this country. There are obviously those who will try and abuse the system in order to get something out of it and I think this is where you get a sense of the frustration. Who is going to rail against those who are truly in need and make a rant about it? The "Madness" is associated with those social injustices that permeate our society as a whole and the abuse by our citizens who create a system by which they can get something for nothing, where people who aren't citizens come to this country and abuse the system to get welfare, free healthcare, free social security and low interest loans to start businesses while our own citizens can barely feed themselves. 

As has been said before profiling is wrong but it's been a problem since the existance of mankind. You can't change an attitude from the outside,,,you have to change it from the inside where the root grows. If the next generation grows up with the same ole standards then nothing changes and we repeat the process. The Madness stops when we change from the inside out and not a second before.


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## tpharkman (Feb 20, 2010)

Nothing changes until the majority of the people who live in and love this great country pull their heads out of the arses. The majority of the good people of this country have thrown their head in the sand hoping that the problems we have will fix themselves. We need to show courage in sharing the basic and most fundamental principles this country was founded on. People don't challenge others for fear of being offensive. I wasn't there but I don't think the leaders that met to sign the Declaration of Independence or to draft our Constitution did it with meek or mild attitudes.

The answers and guidance we need are in those documents unfortunately our elected officials don't know or understand the wisdom they contain.

Vote them all out and start over!!


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## Mr.Lordi (May 20, 2007)

Mad Hatter said:


> *Maybe no one else wanted to be the next Richard Nixon, blackmailed, humiliated and forced from power.*


Not the GOP's fault that Nixon was a scumbag, who broke the law.

If people could think for themselves, they wouldn't hold an entire party responsible for one persons action, instead, they would vote for people based on merit, which, both sides are servilely lacking. Good Politicians seem to be few and far between.



Mad Hatter said:


> *Are you saying we have a one party system with a liberal and conservative wing? Hmmm........*


No, because that boarders closely to the conspiracy theory of an N.W.O, which I do not believe in.


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