# HF Beads or KL Why should I switch



## Habanolover (Feb 22, 2006)

OK You guys have me curious now. What I want you to do is give me some good solid reasons to switch to KL from HF beads. I don't want stuff like "because KL works". Hell, the beads work. I want to know the advantages/disadvantages of each.

Not saying I am definitely going to switch but my curiosity has been peaked.

I am going to play pool and have some drinks in a bit so I may not get back to this thread with questions until later tonight or tomorrow.

Thanks


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## Mr. Slick (Aug 17, 2010)

opcorn:


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## Rock31 (Sep 30, 2010)

1. KL is cheap, about $2 a pound.
2. Easier to maintain in colder months.
3. If for some reason you screw them up just toss em and start again.
4. I can send you some if you want to do a test run.

Those are the 3 reasons I went with KL, I'm sure Tony and others can give you better information.


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## Mr_Black (Dec 1, 2010)

I have been using the Xikar round gel jar, and it has been working good, though I want to see what you all have to say about this too. Are HF beads any different from the gel in the xikar jars??


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## jimbo1 (Aug 18, 2010)

from what I've heard and read, and the reason I'm going to switch is first $$$$$, k/l is way cheaper, second reason you can play w/ it to get the r/h level where you want it, third reason is if u screw it up, just throw it out and start over, the money u save on beads means more money for cigars....


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## Zfog (Oct 16, 2010)

I like the fact that you can adjust the RH. 60, 65 and 70 pretty much cover it, but if you want it "tweaked then you have that option with the silica based kitty litter.


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## 1029henry (Jan 18, 2010)

The reason I tried KL is the fact that my beads were having trouble maintaining 65%. I believe they "wear out" over time. I switched to KL, and maintains 65% very well, plus, if and when the KL loses its ability to maintain RH, I will just toss it and replace with new from the 8 lb. bag I have left. Who knows, the KL may "wear out" over time as well. When it's time to replace it, it is much less expensive. Also, I can buy it in almost any grocery or pet store. This is only my opinion, however.


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## thebayratt (Jun 4, 2009)

* KL is cheaper
* KL works

* I had 65% Beads and they basically quit absorbing. Let my RH get to mid 70%. KL got it to 65% in a day.


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## Mr_Black (Dec 1, 2010)

Zfog said:


> I like the fact that you can adjust the RH. 60, 65 and 70 pretty much cover it, but if you want it "tweaked then you have that option with the silica based kitty litter.


How do you adjust k/l? just pour some into a cup then add distilled water??


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## asmartbull (Aug 16, 2009)

I would not get rid of beads for KL........
I use KL in addition to the beads I have.
If I were starting over and knew what I know now, I would probably just have KL.
Let me fist say, I have 5 coolers going.....
I have beads in all of them and have been very happy with the results.
Last Summer when RH went through the roof for weeks on end,
the beads had a hard time keeping up.
Out of panic, I went to Kl because it was readily accessable and cheap.
I figured, the worst case is I am out 12.00
I added 1.5 lbs to each coolers and my rh quicly came down to 62.
I am sure this could have been accomplished with adding the same amt of beads, but it would have cost me 180.00 +/-
IMHO, the KL absorbs RH very well, while beads give off moisture very well.

Simply stated, similar results with less $$$$.


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## foxracer72 (Nov 23, 2010)

No reason to switch if beads are working for you, but if there not or you need more than what you have save your cash for some good smokes and pick up some KL. Reasons I did it was 1) cost effective 2)control of my RH, if I want it higher spray it down more and if I [email protected]$ it up and put to much no problem just replace with fresh KL and do it again or just add some dry KL to even it out. 3) I could care less what anyone thinks, I have no ego. I guess you should ask yourself why wouldn't you use KL. I'm rock solid 65% RH on all 3 of my DH from the top of mywineador to the bottom pretty good if you ask me.


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## TXsmoker (Sep 6, 2010)

I wouldnt switch, so to speak, just if you ever need to replace beads or start a new humi/cooler, use KL. They both work, but one is way cheaper. If you already have beads and they work, whats the point? But, if you are needing to replace the beads, think about the extra cigars you could buy with the money saved by using KL. Replacing a working system is just wasting cigar money anyways.


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## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

Rock31 said:


> 2. Easier to maintain in colder months.


Can you please explain this?



1029henry said:


> The reason I tried KL is the fact that my beads were having trouble maintaining 65%. I believe they "wear out" over time.


Beads don't "wear out". _You _have to wear them out, by rinsing way the salts. I've been using my same old worn out beads for years and they just boringly and predictably produce the same results.



Zfog said:


> I like the fact that you can adjust the RH. 60, 65 and 70 pretty much cover it, but if you want it "tweaked then you have that option with the silica based kitty litter.


How do you know the rH and how do you "adjust" them?


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## teedles915 (Jun 18, 2009)

Donnie for me it wasn't that I needed to switch. I have a half pound of HF beads that work wonderful in my cooler they are the 65% ones and my coller stays constantly between 64% and 66%. So I think the beads do work fine. 

The reason I tried Kitty Litter is because I needed more for my desktop and new Waxing Moon humi coming. I figured why not give them a shot. One of the BOTLs on the forum was kind enough to send me a sample. I misted a quarter pound of them, and mixed with another quarter pound dry, threw them in and my leaky POS humi is holding dead on 65%. So I see no reason at this point not to use them. 

I have heard people say (may have been you Donnie) that they have thousands invested in cigars, so why be cheap and use the kitty litter. I understand this arguement, but it would seem that we go cheap on the coolers because they work as well as a humi. So why not go cheap on humidification if it works. 

:beerchug::beerchug::beerchug:


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## TXsmoker (Sep 6, 2010)

And dont worry, they dont let cats "test" the litter. Its clean. Really.


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## Richterscale (Jan 8, 2011)

As others have said... if beads work fine for someone and they aren't looking to buy more then there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to switch. But if either of those conditions are set inverted then the reason to chose KL is price and functionality. 

It works. It's cheap.  I've seen a bit of folks state that they had trouble with HF beads (why I do not know.. maybe they washed the salts from them) but I have yet to see anyone complain that KL failed to work. (I'm sure I'm about to be annihilated with posts that say just that heh)


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## Rock31 (Sep 30, 2010)

The colder comment I made was from hearing other people saying they have been having issues since it got colder keeping their 65 rh beads actually hold at 65, then switching to KL and not having any issues.

I never used beads but have had no problems with KL since temp drops.


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## Cigary (Oct 19, 2007)

Ever since I have been reading about KL it has always provoked me into trying it but so far I haven't and I'm one of those "experimental" dudes who like to try new things. I have another humidor ready for this experiment and we have enough KL around here with the two cats my wife has...so I think it's time to do this experiment. March seems to be a month that I will do this and you know what that means...I need to buy some more cigars to help with this experiment...what a shame, huh?


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## Zfog (Oct 16, 2010)

Herf N Turf said:


> .How do you know the rH and how do you "adjust" them?


The numbers I gave were referring to heartfelt beads. As far as the Kitty Litter you adjust the rh by either spritzing with a little more distilled water to raise it. Or replace some wet KL with dry KL to lower the RH. This has been the case with my KL Usage.


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## 1029henry (Jan 18, 2010)

Herf N Turf said:


> Beads don't "wear out". _You _have to wear them out, by rinsing way the salts. I've been using my same old worn out beads for years and they just boringly and predictably produce the same results.


Perhaps I did inadvertantly wash the salts away. KL has no salts to wash away. If you spray too much DW on KL, dump it and replace with new KL. That's pretty expensive with beads.


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## TXsmoker (Sep 6, 2010)

1029henry said:


> Perhaps I did inadvertantly wash the salts away. KL has no salts to wash away. If you spray too much DW on KL, dump it and replace with new KL. That's pretty expensive with beads.


You dont even have to dump them all. Take out a handfull, then mix in a handfull of dry kl.


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## codykrr (Jul 30, 2010)

I just started using them today and love them. I was using the xikar gel and a drymistat tube and having trouble holding 65% this winter. I bought a bottle of KL, a mesh bag, sprayed it pretty good and its already holding 65% solid for the past 4 hours. I like a higher humidity, so I might play around with some salt added to it. 

bottom line. 

if you have a desktop humidor and dont plan on expanding, an have the money get beads. 


But when you have coolers full of cigars, or even large towers the cost of beads can add up. If you have the money by all means I say knock yourself out. but if you would rather save that money to put towards cigars KL may be in your best interest. As it works, and its cheap even in bulk.

Or if money is tight, and you want to protect your meager stash, without breaking the bank...KL to the rescue!


Like mentioned. You might have thousands invested in cigars and want to protect them. yet you dont keep them in top of the line humidors. Instead you throw them in a cheap cooler....why? because it works. if you can save anywhere by all means DO SO! you skimped on your coolidor, why not the humidification as long as it does what you want it too.

Just my .02 

I can attest, I am a cheap skate, mainly because money is tight. I bought the 5 dollar Xikar gel and 4 dollar drymistat tube because it would have cost 20 plus shipping to get me beads. 9 dollars is cheaper that 25plus..

KL=9 bucks plus $.96 for the mesh bag, and works better than what I was using.


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## Josh Lucky 13 (Dec 23, 2010)

Although I have never used beads I think it comes down to cost over work. Beads I think are more of set it then forget it. With KL there may be some minor adjustments spritzing with more water or adding some dry litter for desired rh. The big difference is cost and availability. Many big name stores sell some version of this so accessible for most without having to ship it. Then cost factor My $16 jug will last me years? decades who knows? The cost does make it idiot proof others have posted on these forums about a smell from the beads but they dont want to toss them because what they paid for them. With KL people dont seem to care because it is so cheap and you normally have more than you can use. 

I will also offer same as Ray if you want some KL Pm me I will provide you some to see if it lives up to they hype.


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## codykrr (Jul 30, 2010)

Same, shoot me a pm, and Ill send you some as well(this goes for anyone) wanting to give it a shot.


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## Richterscale (Jan 8, 2011)

Josh Lucky 13 said:


> Although I have never used beads I think it comes down to cost over work. Beads I think are more of set it then forget it. With KL there may be some minor adjustments spritzing with more water or adding some dry litter for desired rh. The big difference is cost and availability. Many big name stores sell some version of this so accessible for most without having to ship it. Then cost factor My $16 jug will last me years? decades who knows? The cost does make it idiot proof others have posted on these forums about a smell from the beads but they dont want to toss them because what they paid for them. With KL people dont seem to care because it is so cheap and you normally have more than you can use.
> 
> I will also offer same as Ray if you want some KL Pm me I will provide you some to see if it lives up to they hype.


I can tell you from first hand experience that the "adjustment" is literally an extra spray of the water bottle. I swear to you that I'm not making that up. And as far as people saying, "well if you screw up, you can just throw them out!" I think that's misleading. It makes it seem like there's a _trick_ to it. I know what they mean is that you have nothing to lose. I would gamble that you couldn't find many, if any, folks who've actually tossed a batch of KL (as long as they've following the brief instructions) due to them not working correctly.

You have to moisten HF beads too by the way. It might just be me but the KL could not be easier if they made it specifically FOR cigars. Hell I was trying my best to over complicate it and plan on having to "program" the litter or "train" it to a particular RH. I just threw some in 2 cheap ass tin foil pans and put them in my cooler as an experiment to see how much messing around would be needed. Couple of hours goes by, it's been parked at 62%...the cooler was only aprox 30% full at that time and some newer boxes had just gone in so I was assuming that those boxes were drinking up some RH as well.. over the next couple of days I would open it up a few times a day and spritz the KL (5-7 sprays each tray. BTW the trays I used were the small 8inch square tin foil baking pan from the grocery store that I had lying around) ...

After aprox 48 hours I had it sitting at 68% and I had done NOTHING more than open it and spritz it about 2 times a day. I could've likely gotten away with less but like I said, I was over thinking it.

I think beads would've reacted in a similar fashion over the first couple of days in the new cooler with some empty space and new boxes in it. It's not that the litter wasn't working.. it's just that the space was large enough and the unseasoned cedar in it needed to steal some of the RH so I had to increase it a bit until it was stable (a day or two).


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## asmartbull (Aug 16, 2009)

Like I said earlier, I have both....

What I love is that I only add water to the KL....

And let the Beads passively season....this way you never
wash the salt off them


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

Habanolover said:


> OK You guys have me curious now. What I want you to do is give me some good solid reasons to switch to KL from HF beads. I don't want stuff like "because KL works". Hell, the beads work. I want to know the advantages/disadvantages of each.
> 
> Not saying I am definitely going to switch but my curiosity has been peaked.
> 
> ...


 I can't tell you why you would switch i can only tell you why i did. I was running two coolidors with beads they worked great never and issue. except in the summer months when humidity was high. I met a man with a collection of cigars i could only dream of having. About 10,000 cigars total and he was running Kitty Litter. So when i set up a 3rd coolidor i ran Kitty Litter never looked back.Even in the summer months i could tweak it to remove excess R/H. Try doing that with beads impossible. I set up a subsequent 4th and 5th coolidors with kitty litter at a fraction of the cost. Again with no issues whats so ever. I even eventually replaced the beads with litter in the first two coolidors. Manly because they were very old and not responding well also i eliminated the summertime swings in R/H. Made sense to me then makes sense to me now. I keep no where near the cigars i had back then. But Kitty Litter is still my hydrating media of choice. Simply put _KITTY LITTER ROCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!_


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## vtxcigar (Nov 25, 2010)

I went from using a combination of gel and a rectangular holder with the green foam to 
KL about 2 weeks ago. My problem was regulating my humidor. In the summer, I didn't 
need the rectangular unit, just the gel. Then, as winter came, I needed the extra 
humidification from the other unit. The problem was in getting the RH to settle at the 
right RH for me, and for some reason it just kept bouncing all over. With the KL, I've 
been able to keep it at a rock solid 66 RH now for 2 weeks (well, after about 2 days of 
adjusting). No need to play with it now, it just stays where I want it. 
Tony is the one who got me interested from reading his KL thread back in December. 
I just never got around to it until recently. Thanks Tony!


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## Rock31 (Sep 30, 2010)

Well I have about 1 1/2 - 2 pounds in a box coming to you, if you want to give it a whirl you can, if not find a cat and let it piss in it


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## Ammosmoke (Jan 25, 2011)

Is there any particular brand you guys know offers a silicon bead only product? I haven't exactly been in the market for kitty litter, but the only stuff I've seen is just a bunch of crushed up rocks.


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## Rock31 (Sep 30, 2010)

Ammosmoke many of us use Exquisicat, but recently I picked up Petco brand Crystal Kitty Litter and it has been fine as well, yes it does look like crushed up rocks.


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

vtxcigar said:


> I went from using a combination of gel and a rectangular holder with the green foam to
> KL about 2 weeks ago. My problem was regulating my humidor. In the summer, I didn't
> need the rectangular unit, just the gel. Then, as winter came, I needed the extra
> humidification from the other unit. The problem was in getting the RH to settle at the
> ...


Your very welcome my friend welcome aboard!


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## bent-1 (Feb 3, 2011)

Just my $0.02, I'm finding this thread a good read for sure.


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## Ammosmoke (Jan 25, 2011)

Rock31 said:


> Ammosmoke many of us use Exquisicat, but recently I picked up Petco brand Crystal Kitty Litter and it has been fine as well, yes it does look like crushed up rocks.


Oh sweet! I've got a Petco right near my house. Thanks. Sorry for the hijack btw.


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## foxracer72 (Nov 23, 2010)

Herf N Turf said:


> Beads don't "wear out". _You _have to wear them out, by rinsing way the salts. I've been using my same old worn out beads for years and they just boringly and predictably produce the same results.


I read from Heartfeld that there beads last up to 10 years, so i take it if you have beads older than 10 years you should replace them


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

Mr_Black said:


> How do you adjust k/l? just pour some into a cup then add distilled water??


http://www.cigarforums.net/forums/vb/cigar-accessory-discussion/276966-kitty-litter-set-up.html


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## asmartbull (Aug 16, 2009)

The only downside that I can think of
is that you may need twice the amt of KL as you do
Beads,,,,Just a volume issue


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## Abajo (Feb 9, 2011)

Awesome, I'm trying this.


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

If they got a PETCO near you use there store brand works great and its $13 for 8 LBS!


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## Habanolover (Feb 22, 2006)

OK From looking through the thread I have come to the conclusion that the biggest reason to use KL over HF beads is price. The biggest downside I see to it is you need to use at least twice as much. Another thing I have seen is that with the KL you can adjust your RH. I'm not going to bother taking that one into consideration since the HF beads keep my cigars in the exact range that I want them at. I have also seen where some say they help during the winter to keep things stable. My humidity never varies more than 3% either way at any time during the year so I won't concern myself with that aspect either.

OK #1 - PRICE:

After mulling it over I have come to the conclusion that using the HF beads is cheaper for me. Now wait just a minute and listen to why. Let's say that a good, accurate hygrometer costs $50. That means that since I am running 3 coolers and 1 humidor that my hygrometer cost is $200 I have also noticed that many of you are using 2 pounds or more of KL. So that brings my total to about $210 - $220. Now I know that not everyone is using a super accurate hygrometer but rather just using the cheaper models so let's drop their price down to $20 each. Now I have $90 - $100 invested.

I am so sure of the accuracy of my HF beads that I do not use hygrometers. The total I have invested in my 4 storage devices is less than $80

#2 - AMOUNT USED:

Right now all of my coolers are pretty much filled to the rim. I can play a little Tetris and make room for another box or a few more singles. If I were to go with the KL I would have less space because of the need for more litter. This means that I would now be on my 5th storage device. This means that I would have to invest in another hygrometer (and cooler, humidor) which would mean, yep, more money invested.

So the conclusion that I come to is that it is actually cheaper for me to use the HF beads than it is to use the KL. Of course if I was only talking about one humidor/cooler then this would b a different story. Really the need for the hygrometers when using the KL is what makes it the less feasible option price wise.

I do have some KL that Ray sent me and I am going to be experimenting with it when I get my next cooler/humi. I will let you know my thoughts when that time comes.


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## TXsmoker (Sep 6, 2010)

Habanolover said:


> OK From looking through the thread I have come to the conclusion that the biggest reason to use KL over HF beads is price. The biggest downside I see to it is you need to use at least twice as much. Another thing I have seen is that with the KL you can adjust your RH. I'm not going to bother taking that one into consideration since the HF beads keep my cigars in the exact range that I want them at. I have also seen where some say they help during the winter to keep things stable. My humidity never varies more than 3% either way at any time during the year so I won't concern myself with that aspect either.
> 
> OK #1 - PRICE:
> 
> ...


I only had one hydrometer for a while. Just move it to a different humi every couple of days to check them out. Mine stay stable unless I need to add water, so I use the hydro to tell me when.


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

Habanolover said:


> OK From looking through the thread I have come to the conclusion that the biggest reason to use KL over HF beads is price. The biggest downside I see to it is you need to use at least twice as much. Another thing I have seen is that with the KL you can adjust your RH. I'm not going to bother taking that one into consideration since the HF beads keep my cigars in the exact range that I want them at. I have also seen where some say they help during the winter to keep things stable. My humidity never varies more than 3% either way at any time during the year so I won't concern myself with that aspect either.
> 
> OK #1 - PRICE:
> 
> ...


BEADS
When i had my coolidors set up i used a pound of beads in each. I also used a hydrometer in each. I have yet in all my years to meet someone that uses their hydrating media without monitoring it.How would you know when it needs to be recharged? So for me cost was 1 pound of beads lets say $40 that's for the best Heartfelt delivered one hydrometer I'll take your number $20. That's $60 per cooler times 5 $300.

KITTY LITTER

10 lbs of kitty litter $10-$15 
5 hydrometers @ $20 each $100 
$110-$115 or roughly 1/3 the price and the ability to remove excess moisture in the summer months. 
Doing something that no one says you can do 
_Priceless!
:bolt::bolt::bolt::bolt::bolt:
_


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## Strick (Aug 21, 2008)

SiO2 is Si02...Use what you like and like what you use.


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## Habanolover (Feb 22, 2006)

TonyBrooklyn said:


> BEADS
> When i had my coolidors set up i used a pound of beads in each. I also used a hydrometer in each. I have yet in all my years to meet someone that uses their hydrating media without monitoring it.How would you know when it needs to be recharged? So for me cost was 1 pound of beads lets say $40 that's for the best Heartfelt delivered one hydrometer I'll take your number $20. That's $60 per cooler times 5 $300.
> 
> KITTY LITTER
> ...


I think you would be surprised at the # of people who use HF beads that no longer use hygrometers. No need for them when your humidification device is dead nuts on 24/7/356. Our humidity here in the Summer runs at about 95% and I have never had a problem with needing to remove excess humidity. I look at the beads and when they are about 60% - 70% dry I re-wet them. I use 10 ounces of beads in the coolers and use 6 ounces in the humidor. I think anyone who has ever received a cigar from me would tell you that my cigars are in pristine shape.

At the end it all boils down to using what you are the most comfortable with. I took and honest approach to this and for me it ends up being cheaper and less worrisome to use HF beads. YMMV


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

Habanolover said:


> I think you would be surprised at the # of people who use HF beads that no longer use hygrometers. No need for them when your humidification device is dead nuts on 24/7/356. Our humidity here in the Summer runs at about 95% and I have never had a problem with needing to remove excess humidity. I look at the beads and when they are about 60% - 70% dry I re-wet them. I use 10 ounces of beads in the coolers and use 6 ounces in the humidor. I think anyone who has ever received a cigar from me would tell you that my cigars are in pristine shape.
> 
> At the end it all boils down to using what you are the most comfortable with. I took and honest approach to this and for me it ends up being cheaper and less worrisome to use HF beads. YMMV


Couldn't agree more use what you like like what you use! Sorta like smoke what you like like what you smoke. Life all comes down to personal preference. I and many have found away to get something for close to nothing i guess. Doesn't mean it works for everyone. I am just glad it works for me. And like you i have decided to share my good fortune!:thumb:


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## K. Corleon (Jul 22, 2010)

Here's my .02,

I have 3 humis, a 100ct. Craftsman's Bench Taj Mahal, a 100 ct El Presidente, and a 300ct El Diablo. Out of the 3, my Craftsman's Bench has the best seal. Following is the HF bead content that was in my humis:

Craftsman's Bench 100ct:
1 Large 70% Tube
1 Medium 70% Tube

El Presidente 100ct:
1 Large 70% Tube
1 Medium 70% Tube

El Diablo 300ct:
3 Large 70% Pucks
2 Medium 70% Tubes

I used way more beads than was actually needed because I've had problems in the past with maintaining my preferred RH with the beads.

My Craftsman's bench held around 65-67 for a good while, my El Presidente held around 59-61 for a while, and my El Diablo held around 58-60 for a while. I knew that I had more beads than I needed for the space, so I decided to give Tony's kitty litter a shot. I removed the beads from my El Diablo and replaced them with the about the same amount of KL a few weeks ago. It has been reading 67-68 ever since. That same day I moved all of the bead from my El Diablo to the Presidente, which now had 3 large 70% pucks, 2 large 70% tubes, and 3 medium 70% tubes, and finally, I got the Presidente to stabilize around 67%. This left me with a Craftsman's Bench with HF beads holding steady around 66%, an El Presidente with a sh!tload of beads holding steady around 67%, and an El Diablo with some KL holding steady around 67%. The humi's held this way for a few weeks. Now, the other day I come home and my thermostat that was set to 70F, for some reason, did not turn on, and the temp in my home was 65F. Naturally, my first thought was to go check out the humis. When I did, the Craftsman's Bench dropped to 60%!, the El Presidente dropped to 61%!, so I slowly opened the El Diablo with the KL..........67%. Right then, I removed the HF beads from my other 2 humis, and replaced them with KL. That's my story, and my experience with KL. I have spent about $200 on HF beads, only to achieve my desired results with a $8.00 tub of KL. Thank you Tony, for sharing this with us, and helping to provide me with an inexpensive, effective solution to my RH issues.

*Kitty Litter Rocks!!!!!*:rockon::rockon::rockon::rockon:


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## cubanrob19 (Jun 15, 2010)

heres my story;

I recently had a small white mold issue on 2 of my sticks in my 150ct humidor. I was using a gel brick on the lid and then I had 2 small pucks filled with 70% hf beads ,that were maybe only about 30-35% wet, in there to help stabalize in case the gel gave off too much humidity. Well, the rh in that humidor was always up between 71-75%, which i knew was kinda high, but didnt think too much of it. after I found the mold on 2 sticks that were directly below the gel brick, I aired out the humidor, wiped it down with everclear to kill any mold stragglers that may have gotten loose, and aired it out some more, then re-seasoned it. this time around I dicided to go ahead and try out the whole Kitty Litter thing for the first time ... I opened up the brick that had the gel, and dumped the gel and filled it up with KL, and sprayed it down with DW. the follwing day the rh was at around 61%, so I gave the KL a few more sprays of DW and closed the lid. the follwing day it was up to 64%, so I gave it 4 more sprays and closed it up. and ever since then it has been constantly holding between 65-67%. So Im sold! :mrgreen: 

Now its time to convert my other 75ct Coffin humi from gel to KL! :nod:

Now, I would like to see if anyone can directly me to where i can buy a few of those nice white baggies with the draw string (ive seen them used for the HF beads). I know i could use panty hose, but I kinda would rather used the nicer looking baggies.


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## Habanolover (Feb 22, 2006)

cubanrob19 said:


> Now, I would like to see if anyone can directly me to where i can buy a few of those nice white baggies with the draw string (ive seen them used for the HF beads). I know i could use panty hose, but I kinda would rather used the nicer looking baggies.


Rob, you can go to a paint store (think Sherwin Williams) and get paint strainer bags that are used for spray machines. These are high quality and should last a lifetime. Others say they get the charcoal filter bags at Petco or similar stores. They would be found in the aquarium section I assume.

PS - Never use the gel along with beads (or KL I would imagine). The gel contains PG which will clog the pores and render them useless over time.


----------



## K. Corleon (Jul 22, 2010)

cubanrob19 said:


> Now, I would like to see if anyone can directly me to where i can buy a few of those nice white baggies with the draw string (ive seen them used for the HF beads). I know i could use panty hose, but I kinda would rather used the nicer looking baggies.


Go back to the pet store to the fish tank accessories section, you will find the baggies there.


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## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

From what I'm reading, *"Kitty litter is cheaper to use than beads" -DEBUNKED*

Granted, kitty litter is cheaper at point of sale than beads. But factoring in hygrometers and lost space, it just doesn't pan out in practical application.

I am entrenched in the camp that sees no need for hygrometers any more. The beads are at least as effective at telling me when they need charged as a hygrometer.

This is an old argument, but we have tens of thousands of dollars invested in our cigar collections. Why scrimp a few dollars on insuring them? Oh wait, beads are indeed cheaper!

_Can _you use a crescent wrench to remove a manifold bolt from a Ferrari? Yeah. _Would _you use a crescent wrench to remove a manifold bolt from a Ferrari? Not this guy!

And, just as a refresher:

HY*D*ROMETER:










HY*G*ROMETER:

















:fear:


----------



## K. Corleon (Jul 22, 2010)

Hey Don, you wouldn't use that crescent wrench on a Ferrari, but would you use it on a Corvette?:rofl::rotfl:


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## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

K. Corleon said:


> Hey Don, you wouldn't use that crescent wrench on a Ferrari, but would you use it on a Corvette?:rofl::rotfl:


Yanno, I _hated _the Stingray body style and the one that followed it. The later model 'vette's are simply gorgeous, though. So, no.


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

K. Corleon said:


> Hey Don, you wouldn't use that crescent wrench on a Ferrari, but would you use it on a Corvette?:rofl::rotfl:


Nah Ferrari's are better than Corvettes besides they cost more money!:suspicious:


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## TXsmoker (Sep 6, 2010)

Herf N Turf said:


> From what I'm reading, *"Kitty litter is cheaper to use than beads" -DEBUNKED*
> 
> Granted, kitty litter is cheaper at point of sale than beads. But factoring in hygrometers and lost space, it just doesn't pan out in practical application.
> 
> ...


Lost space? I use 1/3rd of the kitty litter than I did beads. The beads WOULD NOT hold the propper RH, KL has no problem what-so-ever.

No need for hygrometers with beads? Just a few post above yours is one that stated that his beads wouldnt hold humidity in cooler weather, although another humi with KL had no problem. I wouldnt trust beads without a hygrometer, not with my sticks, few that they are. That seems to counter your point of spending money to protect you investment.

Whats wrong with cheaper if it seems that everyone who chooses the cheaper method has better luck? Im sorry, but with the threads Ive seen about HF's customer service, I would rather walk in a PetCo and walk out, no shipping issues, no communication issues, just my cash for the product I want.

So, IMHO, The myth that HF beads work better has been debunked.


----------



## K. Corleon (Jul 22, 2010)

TonyBrooklyn said:


> Nah Ferrari's are better than Corvettes besides they cost more money!:suspicious:


Just like beads are more expensive right? I see where both sides have their pros and cons, but I only have one question.....Do beads *ROCK*?........Because *Kittly Litter ROCKS!!!*:rockon::rockon::rockon:


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## Habanolover (Feb 22, 2006)

K. Corleon said:


> Just like beads are more expensive right? I see where both sides have their pros and cons, but I only have one question.....Do beads *ROCK*?........Because *Kittly Litter ROCKS!!!*:rockon::rockon::rockon:


HF Beads invented *ROCK* :r


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## Mr. Slick (Aug 17, 2010)

K. Corleon said:


> Hey Don, you wouldn't use that crescent wrench on a Ferrari, but would you use it on a Corvette?:rofl::rotfl:





Herf N Turf said:


> Yanno, I _hated _the Stingray body style and the one that followed it. The later model 'vette's are simply gorgeous, though. So, no.





TonyBrooklyn said:


> Nah Ferrari's are better than Corvettes besides they cost more money!:suspicious:


 ound:ound:

I'll take a 69' big block Vette over any Ferrari any day :z
:car: Ferrari's sure are exotic . . . .

but Vettes ROCK :rockon::rockon:


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## K. Corleon (Jul 22, 2010)

TXsmoker said:


> Im sorry, but with the threads Ive seen about HF's customer service, I would rather walk in a PetCo and walk out, no shipping issues, no communication issues, just my cash for the product I want.


I agree with the message in your post about the kitty litter, but I would like to state that my experience with David at HF has been great. He has always offered me outstanding customer service.


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## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

K. Corleon said:


> I agree with the message in your post, but I would like to state that my experience with David at HF has been great. He has always offered me outstanding customer service.


No kidding. David's a great guy and BOTL. The only "issues" I've ever seen were during the aftermath of a fire that destroyed his building and the death of his wife. I think those are pretty significant "issues".

The fact is, the guy is a one-man-show and has bent over backwards for us for years. To generally impugn his customer service, based on two, uncontrollable events, to me seems a little harsh.


----------



## TXsmoker (Sep 6, 2010)

K. Corleon said:


> I agree with the message in your post about the kitty litter, but I would like to state that my experience with David at HF has been great. He has always offered me outstanding customer service.


I had no shipping issues, but I did email him a couple of time with a question and never heard anything back. That and having seen a few threads here asking why he didnt answer calls and emails, I decided that I had no further use for HF.


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## Habanolover (Feb 22, 2006)

TXsmoker said:


> Lost space? I use 1/3rd of the kitty litter than I did beads. The beads WOULD NOT hold the propper RH, KL has no problem what-so-ever.
> 
> No need for hygrometers with beads? Just a few post above yours is one that stated that his beads wouldnt hold humidity in cooler weather, although another humi with KL had no problem. I wouldnt trust beads without a hygrometer, not with my sticks, few that they are. That seems to counter your point of spending money to protect you investment.
> 
> ...


Yet everyone else says that they need at least twice as much KL to do the same job as HF beads do. To be honest after watching the RH never change over the course of a few years I came to the conclusion that all I was doing was worrying my self with the hygrometer. Like I said before, ask anyone who has received smokes from me and they will tell you they are in pristine shape.

This thread was not to start an argument about HF/KL (we have enough of them already). It was to see if there was a reason for me to start using KL. I weighed the pros and cons and decided that for me there was no reason to. Hopefully we can end the great HF/KL debate and move on to other unanswered questions such as cello on/cello off. :mrgreen:


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## K. Corleon (Jul 22, 2010)

Habanolover said:


> Hopefully we can end the great HF/KL debate and move on to other unanswered questions such as cello on/cello off. :mrgreen:


Both, some on, some off. :rofl:


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## TXsmoker (Sep 6, 2010)

Herf N Turf said:


> No kidding. David's a great guy and BOTL. The only "issues" I've ever seen were during the aftermath of a fire that destroyed his building and the death of his wife. I think those are pretty significant "issues".
> 
> The fact is, the guy is a one-man-show and has bent over backwards for us for years. To generally impugn his customer service, based on two, uncontrollable events, to me seems a little harsh.


I dont know anything about what happens behind the scenes. I droped my interest when his product didnt work as well as a cheaper alternative. I dont know David, and I havent done more than order a product from him, sent him a "thank you it arrived" email, then a few question emails and none were responded to. 4 months later. I know a fire doesnt jump through your computer and burn your emails. I guess I should thank him though, his lack of response to my question about his product was why I tried KL.

Either way, no offence to David, but I have found a cheaper, and better working alternative that I like better. Many people here seem to agree.


----------



## Habanolover (Feb 22, 2006)

K. Corleon said:


> Both, some on, some off. :rofl:


OK that literally made me Laugh out loud. RG bump for you sir.


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

K. Corleon said:


> .Because *Kittly Litter ROCKS!!!*:rockon::rockon::rockon:


Sure does and its infinitely adjustable. When i use Kitty Litter i am not shackled to any pre determined R/H. I can place it any where i like i hold 62- 63% with my setup. If i ran beads i would have to drop to 60 which is too low for me or go to 65 which is to high for me. So simply put

_KITTY LITTER ROCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!_


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## Mr. Slick (Aug 17, 2010)

All joking aside:
I'm a bead user but the more I read about kitty litter the more I want to try it. IMHO it all boils down to best bang for the buck with the litter. 

I read somewhere that the litter releases moisture faster than beads. Is there any truth to that statement?


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

Mr. Slick said:


> All joking aside:
> I'm a bead user but the more I read about kitty litter the more I want to try it. IMHO it all boils down to best bang for the buck with the litter.
> 
> I read somewhere that the litter releases moisture faster than beads. Is there any truth to that statement?


Here is the low down on Silica Gel its been around since 1919.

Silica gel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A must read IMHO!

I have asked many to date to provide scientific evidence that their silica is better than mine. To date no one has ever responded!


----------



## Habanolover (Feb 22, 2006)

OK I am getting confused now. IS KL ad HF the same thing? If so then how does one work better than the other? oke:


----------



## TXsmoker (Sep 6, 2010)

Habanolover said:


> Yet everyone else says that they need at least twice as much KL to do the same job as HF beads do. To be honest after watching the RH never change over the course of a few years I came to the conclusion that all I was doing was worrying my self with the hygrometer. Like I said before, ask anyone who has received smokes from me and they will tell you they are in pristine shape.
> 
> This thread was not to start an argument about HF/KL (we have enough of them already). It was to see if there was a reason for me to start using KL. I weighed the pros and cons and decided that for me there was no reason to. Hopefully we can end the great HF/KL debate and move on to other unanswered questions such as cello on/cello off. :mrgreen:


In your case, as I said in my original post, keep what works. But, Don posted that beads won for a reason I didnt agree with, so I posted my findings that were quite different than his. He claimed that beads were cheaper. This is untrue. If I ran the HF beads with no hygro, I would have lost sticks, costing me even more.

Oh yea, cellopane off for me.


----------



## K. Corleon (Jul 22, 2010)

Habanolover said:


> OK I am getting confused now. IS KL ad HF the same thing? If so then how does one work better than the other? oke:


The KL we're talking about is silica. So its the same, just cheaper. Care to elaborate Tony?


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

K. Corleon said:


> The KL we're talking about is silica. So its the same, just cheaper. Care to elaborate Tony?


Go down a couple of posts click on the link i have provided you tell me.


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## Habanolover (Feb 22, 2006)

TXsmoker said:


> In your case, as I said in my original post, keep what works. But, Don posted that beads won for a reason I didnt agree with, so I posted my findings that were quite different than his. He claimed that beads were cheaper. This is untrue. If I ran the HF beads with no hygro, I would have lost sticks, costing me even more.
> 
> Oh yea, cellopane off for me.


I honestly have not seen one post in this thread where anyone was even close to losing their cigars due to any type of beads. Could you please show me that post.


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

Habanolover said:


> OK I am getting confused now. IS KL ad HF the same thing? If so then how does one work better than the other? oke:


Heartfelt beads are simple to use hence idiot proof. If one has the patience Kitty Litter can be used as effectively as beads. Are they exactly the same product of course not.


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## Mr. Slick (Aug 17, 2010)

TonyBrooklyn said:


> Here is the low down on Silica Gel its been around since 1919.
> 
> Silica gel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> A must read IMHO!
> ...


Someone should edit that wikipedia page and add under applications that silica can be used for regulating humidity. :dude:


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## Habanolover (Feb 22, 2006)

TonyBrooklyn said:


> Heartfelt beads are simple to use hence idiot proof. If one has the patience Kitty Litter can be used as effectively as beads. Are they exactly the same product of course not.


I was just wondering because I have often seen the "they are the same thing minus the salts" argument but there are people in this thread saying that the KL is better. Not saying that in their opinion but stating it as fact. I just wanted to clear that up.

I love a good debate and I feel that this is a good subject for one. What I don't like is trying to pass off opinion as fact. (this is in no way directed at you Tony) That goes for either side of the issue.

I also hope that everyone realizes that while we can have a rather vigorous discussion about this that at the end of the day I still consider you all brothers and would do anything within my power to help you if needed. I would also be honored to have a cigar and a drink with any one of you.


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## TXsmoker (Sep 6, 2010)

Habanolover said:


> I honestly have not seen one post in this thread where anyone was even close to losing their cigars due to any type of beads. Could you please show me that post.


The post you got it from. If I did like Don said, load up with beads and forget the hygrometer, I, as in ME, would have lost sticks. MY HF beads never came close to holding humidity. If I didnt have a hygrometer, I wouldnt have known that my humi was staying below an acceptable range. Way below.


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## xhris (Sep 7, 2006)

I'm running beads right now and to be totally honest, I'm not getting the kind of consistency i want. Maybe it's something i'm doing wrong, but the sudden spikes and drops seem to come at random... Trying KL this week.


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## Mr. Slick (Aug 17, 2010)

Habanolover said:


> I also hope that everyone realizes that while we can have a rather vigorous discussion about this that at the end of the day I still consider you all brothers and would do anything within my power to help you if needed. I would also be honored to have a cigar and a drink with any one of you.


 :nod: :beerchug:


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

Habanolover said:


> I was just wondering because I have often seen the "they are the same thing minus the salts" argument but there are people in this thread saying that the KL is better. Not saying that in their opinion but stating it as fact. I just wanted to clear that up.
> 
> I love a good debate and I feel that this is a good subject for one. What I don't like is trying to pass off opinion as fact. (this is in no way directed at you Tony) That goes for either side of the issue.
> 
> I also hope that everyone realizes that while we can have a rather vigorous discussion about this that at the end of the day I still consider you all brothers and would do anything within my power to help you if needed. I would also be honored to have a cigar and a drink with any one of you.


No offense taken an old saying "I may not agree with what you say but i will defend to the death your right to say it" My father R.I.P taught us that when we were children! Voltaire, may have said it they were first used by Evelyn Beatrice Hall! If we had a cigar together my brother the Honor would be all mine! Your a class act Big Poppa!


​


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## Habanolover (Feb 22, 2006)

TXsmoker said:


> The post you got it from. If I did like Don said, load up with beads and forget the hygrometer, I, as in ME, would have lost sticks. MY HF beads never came close to holding humidity. If I didnt have a hygrometer, I wouldnt have known that my humi was staying below an acceptable range. Way below.


What was the humidity running?


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## Habanolover (Feb 22, 2006)

OK guys, I gotta run for a bit. Gotta go to Wal-Mart and buy some hygrometers that may work for a couple of days. Never know unless you calibrate them every 2 days or so. :mrgreen:

Just kidding guys but I do have to go run a couple of errands. I am glad to see that we can have this discussion and still remain civil with each other. Of course I don't know why anyone would really get upset over a HF bead vs KL debate. Now if you tell me I must remove my cigars from their tubes I am going to go ballistic! :r


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## Zfog (Oct 16, 2010)

Habanolover said:


> OK guys, I gotta run for a bit. Gotta go to Wal-Mart and buy some hydrometers that may work for a couple of days. Never know unless you calibrate them every 2 days or so. :mrgreen:
> 
> Just kidding guys but I do have to go run a couple of errands. I am glad to see that we can have this discussion and still remain civil with each other. Of course I don't know why anyone would really get upset over a HF bead vs KL debate. Now if you tell me I must remove my cigars from their tubes I am going to go ballistic! :r


There I fixed that for ya!
eace::twitch:


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## Habanolover (Feb 22, 2006)

Zfog said:


> There I fixed that for ya!
> eace::twitch:


But I don't need to measure the relative density of any liquids. :r


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## K. Corleon (Jul 22, 2010)

Habanolover said:


> Now if you tell me I must remove my cigars from their tubes I am going to go ballistic! :r


I like to put my cigars inside my HF bead tubes, most effective.


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## Habanolover (Feb 22, 2006)

K. Corleon said:


> I like to put my cigars inside my HF bead tubes, most effective.


I bet they would smoke better if the tubes you put them in also contained KL. :mrgreen:


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## TXsmoker (Sep 6, 2010)

Habanolover said:


> What was the humidity running?


40-44. But sometimes a big spike when the temps rose. The Texas "fall" with 40 degree temps at night, but 80's during the day was doing a number. Rock solid with KL.


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## Habanolover (Feb 22, 2006)

TXsmoker said:


> 40-44. But sometimes a big spike when the temps rose. The Texas "fall" with 40 degree temps at night, but 80's during the day was doing a number. Rock solid with KL.


Well I am glad you found something that works for you. :tu


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## Zfog (Oct 16, 2010)

Do you think a hydrometer would make a good draw tool? :moony:


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## Mr. Slick (Aug 17, 2010)

Habanolover said:


> OK guys, I gotta run for a bit. Gotta go to Wal-Mart and buy some hygrometers that may work for a couple of days. Never know unless you calibrate them every 2 days or so. :mrgreen:
> 
> Just kidding guys but I do have to go run a couple of errands. I am glad to see that we can have this discussion and still remain civil with each other. Of course I don't know why anyone would really get upset over a HF bead vs KL debate. Now if you tell me I must remove my cigars from their tubes I am going to go ballistic! :r


No need to be coy. We know you're going to Wal mart to pick up some kitty litter. :mrgreen:


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## jimbo1 (Aug 18, 2010)

Mr. Slick said:


> No need to be coy. We know you're going to Wal mart to pick up some kitty litter. :mrgreen:


now thats funnyoke:


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## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

TXsmoker said:


> I only had one hydrometer for a while. Just move it to a different humi every couple of days to check them out. Mine stay stable unless I need to add water, so I use the hydro to tell me when.





TXsmoker said:


> 40-44. But sometimes a big spike when the temps rose. The Texas "fall" with 40 degree temps at night, but 80's during the day was doing a number. Rock solid with KL.


The possible reasons I see for this FAIL are three:

1) Using a hydrometer to measure humidity.

2) Likely not enough beads.

3) Likely over-saturated at some point, whether in whole or in part.

Honestly, I've never seen a single instant of beads failing where there wasn't a hefty dose of operator error applied.

That, notwithstanding, you could be that isolated, singular, special case. Sort of like the day the earth stood still, the sun failed to rise, the tides ceased to come in, Oprah turned down a Whopper and GW Bush said something that sounded remotely intelligent. :twitch:

If cat litter vanquished all these issues for you, stick with it and smoke in peace, brother.eace:


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## TXsmoker (Sep 6, 2010)

Herf N Turf said:


> The possible reasons I see for this FAIL are three:
> 
> 1) Using a hydrometer to measure humidity.
> 
> ...


1, Yea, yea yea, I have posted several times with the proper spelling since that post. Really dude, thats immature to keep pointing out a spelling error. Do you really think I have a hydrometer in my humi?

2, 120ct humi with 2 medium tubes and a puck. According to the site, one tube should have been enough. One tube with the beads dumped, refilled with KL works fine.

3, I started in the summer, so initialy I didnt add any water. Over the course of 2 weeks or so, I dumped the beads into a bowl and gave them 2 spritz's with a spray bottle about twice a day, and never got decent humidity. By the end of the second week, yes, they were too wet. Threw in the KL and I was rock solid at 65% within an hour.

Isolated, singular, special case? Did you read post 48? And thats not the only person Ive seen claim their beads dont do the job. Everyone Ive talked to says that beads dont react as fast, and have more issues with temp.

My issue was your claim that HF beads were cheaper because you didnt need to buy hygrometers for each humi. Me, and several other had humidity issues with HF beads that would have gone unnoticed had we not had hygrometers. Sure, Im sure you have better humi's that hold RH better, but really, why risk it? 15 bucks for a hygometer that may not be the most accurate, but will let you know if something is up, is a worthwhile investment to me.


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

Have you guys even took the time to read this?
Science is Science you of all people Don should appreciate this!

Silica gel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This i think says it all!

*Cat litter*

Silica gel is also used as cat litter[6], by itself or in combination with more traditional materials, such as clays including bentonite. It is trackless and virtually odorless. Silica in this form can be a cost effective way for retail consumers easily to purchase silica gel for application in such things as maintaining the desired relative humidity in humidors.
:hmm::mod::faint::spy:


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## Habanolover (Feb 22, 2006)

If we are going to use wikipedia as a source we should include the complete paragraph. 



> Silica gel is also used as cat litter[6], by itself or in combination with more traditional materials, such as clays including bentonite. It is trackless and virtually odorless. Silica in this form can be a cost effective way for retail consumers easily to purchase silica gel for application in such things as *maintaining the desired relative humidity in humidors (but is not recommended)*, keeping tools rust free in damp environments, long term storage, and preservation of dried food for long term storage.


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## TXsmoker (Sep 6, 2010)

Its wikipedia. Im sure some anti-kl person added that. It wasnt there earlier.


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## Zfog (Oct 16, 2010)

Does it elaborate as to why its not recommended?


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

Habanolover said:


> If we are going to use wikipedia as a source we should include the complete paragraph.


I think the parenthesis is referring to keeping tools in a rust free environment not humidors. We all know it works in humidors many have used it for years. But to create a totally moisture proof environment now that's another story. I think the importance her is that Silica Gel is Silica gel and is useful in many applications. Also do bead manufactures have scientific data that their Silica is better than Kitty Litter grade Silica.


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## Habanolover (Feb 22, 2006)

TXsmoker said:


> Its wikipedia. Im sure some anti-kl person added that. It wasnt there earlier.


I agree with this. Just like the humidor recommendation was not there yesterday and someone went and added it after Tony posted the link.


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## Habanolover (Feb 22, 2006)

TonyBrooklyn said:


> I think the parenthesis is referring to keeping tools in a rust free environment not humidors. We all know it works in humidors many have used it for years. But to create a totally moisture proof environment now that's another story. I think the importance her is that Silica Gel is Silica gel at is useful in many applications. Also do bead manufactures have scientific data that their Silica is better than Kitty Litter grade Silica.


It is referring to the humidor. Note where the comma is at.


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## TXsmoker (Sep 6, 2010)

Look now, I removed that little addition.


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## Habanolover (Feb 22, 2006)

TXsmoker said:


> Look now, I removed that little addition.


So I am to conclude that you are the one that added the other little addition yesterday? If so then I know not to continue this discussion with you any further since intellectual dishonesty adds absolutely nothing to the debate.

Thanks


----------



## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

Habanolover said:


> I agree with this. Just like the humidor recommendation was not there yesterday and someone went and added it after Tony posted the link.


The humidor recommendation is there now but the not recommended is gone
:hmm::hmm::hmm::hmm::hmm:
:spy::spy::spy:


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## Zfog (Oct 16, 2010)

That is bogus, I wonder how they check up on the validity of their info?


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## TXsmoker (Sep 6, 2010)

Habanolover said:


> So I am to conclude that you are the one that added the other little addition yesterday? If so then I know not to continue this discussion with you any further since intellectual dishonesty adds absolutely nothing to the debate.
> 
> Thanks


No, the humi part was there, the only thing Ive ever done on wikipedia was remove that little inaccuracy. That was the first time Ive ever made a change on that site. But, all I did was remove incorrect info. Wikipedia is updated by users, so it will show opinion. Its a quick refference tool, but isnt always accurate.


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## Habanolover (Feb 22, 2006)

TonyBrooklyn said:


> The humidor recommendation is there now but the not recommended is gone
> :hmm::hmm::hmm::hmm::hmm:
> :spy::spy::spy:


Yep, just like the humi recommendation was not there yesterday until you posted the link and someone added it. Now that I know who it was this discussion has been tainted in my mind and is no longer worth continuing.

With that said I will not be responding to this discussion any longer.


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## Habanolover (Feb 22, 2006)

TXsmoker said:


> No, the humi part was there, the only thing Ive ever done on wikipedia was remove that little inaccuracy. That was the first time Ive ever made a change on that site. But, all I did was remove incorrect info. Wikipedia is updated by users, so it will show opinion. Its a quick refference tool, but isnt always accurate.


No it wasn't. When the link was first posted I looked at it. When I went back and looked at it later the info had been added. The edited date and time was yesterday. Also at the time the part in parenthesis was not there so someone went and added it later.


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## TXsmoker (Sep 6, 2010)

Habanolover said:


> intellectual dishonesty


???

Really? Some dishonest person added the "not recomended" part. All I did was remove it.


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## Habanolover (Feb 22, 2006)

TXsmoker said:


> ???
> 
> Really? Some dishonest person added the "not recomended" part. All I did was remove it.


Yes, altering the page to say what you want it to say in order to prop up your argument is what I call intellectual dishonesty. :2


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## TXsmoker (Sep 6, 2010)

Habanolover said:


> No it wasn't. When the link was first posted I looked at it. When I went back and looked at it later the info had been added. The edited date and time was yesterday. Also at the time the part in parenthesis was not there so someone went and added it later.


Yes, someone added the humi part. Then someone else added the "not recomended" part. Thats wiki for you. It is user updated. Ive seen history arguments get pages locked. I did nothing dishonest, I just updated the site to indicate my findings.


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

Look the beads you use in your humidors and coolidors where not originally intended for that purpose everybody knows that. They where originally used to store art work and antiques! Later someone figured out that its great absorbency can be used for Cat Litter. I always find it funny when someone says i'm not putting Cat litter near my cigars. Cause you know what anyone who uses beads is doing exactly that. Silica is Silica that is a scientific fact people found ways to make money with this highly versatile product. Through re naming it advertising it Marketing in different ways. Science is Science Facts are Facts to say any different is without scientific Data. 
_The Cat is out of the bag gentleman!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!_


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## TXsmoker (Sep 6, 2010)

Habanolover said:


> Yes, altering the page to say what you want it to say in order to prop up your argument is what I call intellectual dishonesty. :2


I told you I did it though. I did it to show you that wiki has nothing to do with truth. I did it to show you that anyone can change anything on there. Want me to go to Adolf Hitler's page and say his favorite color was pink and his favorite thing to watch on TV is hardcore ****? If I didnt post that I changes it, that would be dishonest. But I did tell you.


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## K. Corleon (Jul 22, 2010)

Ahhhhhh.....I love Puff......


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## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

TXsmoker said:


> 1, Yea, yea yea, I have posted several times with the proper spelling since that post. Really dude, *thats immature* to keep pointing out a spelling error. Do you really think I have a hydrometer in my humi?
> 
> *15 bucks for a hygometer* that may not be the most accurate, but will let you know if something is up, is a worthwhile investment to me.


I find this egregious and both personally and generally offensive. First, generally, to alter a public reference resource in order to support one's personal argument is the quintessence of "intellectual dishonesty". I do not gather my science from Wikipedia for this very reason. Any quack, or kid in a basement with a chemistry set can make any claim they like, not support it with research, data, or references and some poor dolt out there will take it as gospel.

Altering a public resource, in order to support the claims of a tiny minority is, in my personal opinion, reprehensible, misleading and disingenuous.

Basing results and laying claim to superiority, based on the experience of one, or three, individuals, is not science, it's hearsay. I would estimate that for each person successfully using cat litter, there are thousands successfully using beads.

The only way either camp can claim superiority, is to do a valid, double-blind, exhaustive, comparative study. To my knowledge, no one has to date.

Certainly, no one is taking issue with your personal experience. What I take issue with is that you don't own it as such, but rather use it to make general statements. Any product can (as in your case) be used improperly and made to fail. Simply because it failed for you, does not globally mean it's a failure. You've stated several times that cat litter works "faster". What evaporation study do you reference. Working against you is this forum's main proponent of cat litter, maintaining that "Silica Gel is Silica Gel." So, why would there be any quantifiable difference?

Secondly, personally, calling me "immature", for pointing out a glaring misunderstanding of nomenclature (NOT spelling, or typing, as you claim), is insulting and inappropriate. As to whether or not you put a hydrometer in your humidor, I have no way of knowing and less of caring. If someone tells me they're "going to the sail", do I assume they mean Macy's or a Regatta?

One of the things that causes (and has caused for some time) my patience to wear thin with this whole cat litter debate, is the zealousness of the cat litter side. Some act as though someone is attacking their children. Someone asks a question about Heartfelt Beads and some people can't wait to jump in and tell them that cat litter is, better, cheaper, the only way to go. If anyone dares mention beads in a cat litter thread, several people there get personally offended and want them run out on a rail.

This is the only forum of which I am aware, which spends this kind of time and energy on such a mundane, disinteresting and seemingly flamable topic as cat litter. What I _have _seen discussed elsewhere is how ridiculous some find our obsession with it here.

The only reason this, now-completely-deteriorated thread is still open, is because it belongs to a moderator, who happens to be a dear friend of mine.

Otherwise, geschlossen! Like Habanolover, I am disgusted with the dishonesty which has tainted this thread and will not revisit it.

And, for the record, 15 bucks doesn't get you a hygrometer. It get's you a toy that looks and acts somewhat like a hygrometer. And you used it to determine the basis of your claim that beads would have ruined your sticks. Priceless.

Herf - out!


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## TXsmoker (Sep 6, 2010)

Herf N Turf said:


> I find this egregious and both personally and generally offensive. First, generally, to alter a public reference resource in order to support one's personal argument is the quintessence of "intellectual dishonesty". I do not gather my science from Wikipedia for this very reason. Any quack, or kid in a basement with a chemistry set can make any claim they like, not support it with research, data, or references and some poor dolt out there will take it as gospel.
> 
> Altering a public resource, in order to support the claims of a tiny minority is, in my personal opinion, reprehensible, misleading and disingenuous.
> 
> ...


Ok, first, I didnt alter the site to prove my standing, I changed it, AND posted that I did, so that Habanolover would see how that site works. HE claimed that Tony didnt post the whole quote (in effect calling Tony a liar), when in reality, the site was edited after Tony quoted from it. That was the whole purpose of me editing their site. I have explained that in preivious posts in this thread. Plain and simple. You guys keep claiming that I did something dishonest when I posted that I was doing it, and why. I was standing up for Tony, whom I consider a friend.

Second, yes, I did call you immature. You replied to a post of mine without reading further in the thread and noticing I had used the correct spelling later. The hygrometer/hydrometer spelling issue has been discussed before, and its pretty much a given that it is either a spelling error or just a misunderstanding. Ive never met anyone with a humi that was really trying to use a hydrometer in place of a hygrometer.

As for cheap hygro's, sure, they may not display the correct reading (3 salt tests each and mine are still on the dot?) but it will let you know if there is a drop or a rise in humidity. My analog hygro isnt accurate, but you can look at it and notice that its reading higher or lower than usual. I cant see not running a hygrometer being safer than having one that isnt the most accurate, reguardless of beads or KL.


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## Habanolover (Feb 22, 2006)

TXsmoker said:


> Ok, first, I didnt alter the site to prove my standing, I changed it, AND posted that I did, so that Habanolover would see how that site works. *HE claimed that Tony didnt post the whole quote (in effect calling Tony a liar), when in reality, the site was edited after Tony quoted from it*. That was the whole purpose of me editing their site. I have explained that in preivious posts in this thread. Plain and simple. You guys keep claiming that I did something dishonest when I posted that I was doing it, and why. I was standing up for Tony, whom I consider a friend.
> 
> Second, yes, I did call you immature. You replied to a post of mine without reading further in the thread and noticing I had used the correct spelling later. The hygrometer/hydrometer spelling issue has been discussed before, and its pretty much a given that it is either a spelling error or just a misunderstanding. Ive never met anyone with a humi that was really trying to use a hydrometer in place of a hygrometer.
> 
> As for cheap hygro's, sure, they may not display the correct reading (3 salt tests each and mine are still on the dot?) but it will let you know if there is a drop or a rise in humidity. My analog hygro isnt accurate, but you can look at it and notice that its reading higher or lower than usual. I cant see not running a hygrometer being safer than having one that isnt the most accurate, reguardless of beads or KL.


To begin with Tony happens to be a very good friend of mine. I know I said I was not going to post here again but you are really starting to grate on my nerves here. Tony posted the quote from Wiki this morning. Both edits to wiki were made yesterday so no, the whole paragraph was not quoted. I assure you that I know how wiki works, I am no idiot! How is editing wiki standing up for Tony. Tony does fine standing up for himself without using backhanded methods to try and argue his side. I have much respect for Tony because of many things and that is one of them.

As far as the dishonesty goes, yeah, you told me you edited wiki, what about the thousands of others that read it, did you tell them too? If not then you are being intellectually dishonest. All I ask is that you state your side and make an argument that supports it like Tony does. I know someone added something else to wiki that was against KL and I would like to say that they were also being intellectually dishonest.


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## TXsmoker (Sep 6, 2010)

Habanolover said:


> To begin with Tony happens to be a very good friend of mine. I know I said I was not going to post here again but you are really starting to grate on my nerves here. Tony posted the quote from Wiki this morning. Both edits to wiki were made yesterday so no, the whole paragraph was not quoted. I assure you that I know how wiki works, I am no idiot! How is editing wiki standing up for Tony. Tony does fine standing up for himself without using backhanded methods to try and argue his side. I have much respect for Tony because of many things and that is one of them.
> 
> As far as the dishonesty goes, yeah, you told me you edited wiki, what about the thousands of others that read it, did you tell them too? If not then you are being intellectually dishonest. All I ask is that you state your side and make an argument that supports it like Tony does. I know someone added something else to wiki that was against KL and I would like to say that they were also being intellectually dishonest.


I seriously dont see Tony leaving out part of a quote from a site just to make his point. The humi part wasnt even there the first time I checked it, so I clicked the link again and re-read the whole thing. Did it again after you posted it with the "not recomended" part in place. How am I dishonest for removing what I consider a false claim? Claiming that using KL for humidification was "not recomended" is very false, as there are many people who recomend it quite a bit. All I did was remove false info, the reason people are allowed to edit that site. Nothing dishonest at all about that.

You run into people all the time that dont use wikipedia enough to know how it works. You claimed that Tony didnt post the whole thing, but I saw it both ways, the way Tony posted, and the way you posted it. Not knowing how well you know wiki, I posted that they can be edited, then changed it back to what Tony quoted, SO ANYONE WHO DOESNT KNOW HOW WIKIPEDIA WORKS COULD SEE HOW EASY ANYONE COULD MAKE CHANGES.


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## Habanolover (Feb 22, 2006)

TXsmoker said:


> I seriously dont see Tony leaving out part of a quote from a site just to make his point. The humi part wasnt even there the first time I checked it, so I clicked the link again and re-read the whole thing. Did it again after you posted it with the "not recomended" part in place. How am I dishonest for removing what I consider a false claim? Claiming that using KL for humidification was "not recomended" is very false, as there are many people who recomend it quite a bit. All I did was remove false info, the reason people are allowed to edit that site. Nothing dishonest at all about that.
> 
> You run into people all the time that dont use wikipedia enough to know how it works. You claimed that Tony didnt post the whole thing, but I saw it both ways, the way Tony posted, and the way you posted it. Not knowing how well you know wiki, I posted that they can be edited, then changed it back to what Tony quoted, SO ANYONE WHO DOESNT KNOW HOW WIKIPEDIA WORKS COULD SEE HOW EASY ANYONE COULD MAKE CHANGES.


I saw both changes on there yesterday! What is so hard to understand about that? The part about humidors was put on there yesterday as was the part about "not recommended" I saw it with my own eyes. I have no reason to lie about it. When I went to copy/paste it this morning after Tony it clearly stated at the bottom that the last edit was made yesterday.

BTW Typing in all caps does no more for your argument than editing wiki pages does.


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

:hand::yield: May i suggest that we all take a step back please!:wink:
I think its time for a :grouphug:

I love this forum because it seldom is divided we are all BOTL.:tea:
I also love this forum for the fact that anyone can argue or rather debate their point of view, without fear of altercation. There are not any places like this that exist to my knowledge.
Kitty Litter or Beads is it really about what one chooses to use.
I only used Wikipedia as a common source everyone knows. 
Not as a scientific threshold of proven knowledge. 
The opening part of the article states when Silica Gel was invented and its uses. I have no desire to sway anyone from beads to Kitty Litter. Kitty Litter stands on its own merit as a cheaper cost per pound alternative to beads. Is it for everyone of course not neither are beads. The bottom line here is use what you like and be happy with it. Life is just to damn short to sweat the little stuff. I like to think i am friends with all of you and would never want to divide you. Or tarnish that friendship to prove a point. I hope that you all fell the same way as well.

Don went so far as to apologize to me for speaking his mind on the subject for fear of insulting me earlier. That really touched me deeply that someone whom i have never met personally. Would take my feelings so far into consideration for simply stating what he personally believed in. And Adam would come to my defense as he did when he felt i was under attack. I think in the heat of discussion we all lose focus on the subject at hand. Also when writing what one puts into text is not as clear as speaking face to face. There are no smiles or tone of voice or body language to show the other, that we are benevolent and honest. Sometimes we think we are being razzed when in reality the opposite is true.:tea:


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## TXsmoker (Sep 6, 2010)

Habanolover said:


> I saw both changes on there yesterday! What is so hard to understand about that? The part about humidors was put on there yesterday as was the part about "not recommended" I saw it with my own eyes. I have no reason to lie about it. When I went to copy/paste it this morning after Tony it clearly stated at the bottom that the last edit was made yesterday.
> 
> BTW Typing in all caps does no more for your argument than editing wiki pages does.


I dont know you, but I know Tony. I have no reason to believe that he only posted part that supports his argument. He has been nothing but honest to me. Do you trust someone you know or someone you dont?

I guess its not worth my time to sit here and argue with someone that I have been warned was a good friend of the owner of HF. How can you get an unbiased response from someone like that? LOL, start a thread to make your buddies product look good, and get mad when most people preffer the cheaper alternative.


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## Habanolover (Feb 22, 2006)

So true Tony. I started the thread in hopes that we could have an intellectual discussion on the subject of cost. It is sad that it has deteriorated into what it has and that there is basically no chance for said discussion to take place now. I feel that it really could have been to the benefit of the community and especially the new guys who see nothing but "use HF beads, no use KL". This thread could have been something to point them towards so that they could weigh every aspect and make their own choice.

Oh well, if everyone has said their piece I will let it remain open for another 30 minutes or so and then I will go ahead and lock it.


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## Habanolover (Feb 22, 2006)

TXsmoker said:


> I dont know you, but I know Tony. I have no reason to believe that he only posted part that supports his argument. He has been nothing but honest to me. Do you trust someone you know or someone you dont?
> 
> I guess its not worth my time to sit here and argue with someone that I have been warned was a good friend of the owner of HF. How can you get an unbiased response from someone like that? LOL, start a thread to make your buddies product look good, and get mad when most people preffer the cheaper alternative.


Whatever bro. If you consider me dishonest it is no one's loss but yours.


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## TXsmoker (Sep 6, 2010)

Habanolover said:


> Whatever bro. If you consider me dishonest it is no one's loss but yours.


Dude, you are a great guy, with your own hear earned opinions. You are generous, Ive seen that. But, I see you jump on KL with such an intense dislike that I have to say you are biased in this case. With the number of people here claiming great success with KL, you have to admitt that. My first post on this thread was stating that if you have beads and they are working, why replace them. But I couldnt stay quiet when beads were deemed cheaper due to not needing a hygrometer. Thats BS. Maybe once everything is stable its not that big of a deal, but thats bad advice for any newbies reading the thread.


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