# A Tale of Two Stogies...



## Neuromancer (Sep 7, 2005)

Or a primer on how to spot a fugazi habano even though it's a good cigar, part #1...okay, here we go...to start with, I knew I had two Bolivar Petite Corona's in my humi and decided to smoke one this afternoon...so I pulled out both of them and what did my eyes behold? One of them was fake...now I know where they came from more or less and I will tell you now, that the fake one came out of Hong Kong as I have seen more of these previously...that should be a BIG clue to those of you that are perhaps trading with this HK merchant...what was really surprising upon comparing the two, was how much of a fooler the fake one could have been, especially to someone who has little knowledge of habanos...the following photos and captions will illustrate whereof I speak...



Here's a photo of the two...the one on the left is the fake and the most obvious thing at first is the label...also the fake cigar is too short by about 2mm, however, it has a triple cap, and is extremely well constructed, a real fooler...as far as it being lighter than the real one on the right, remember when they box them they match for color so I have seen authentic Boli's in both of these colors, so color isn't the way to go here...



As I said, nice triple cap on each one...again, the fake is on the left...



Here's the foot of each...a little blurry but the following can be made out...construction still appears good on the fake (left) as there are not many stems appearing in the foot...a few, but not really very many...could fool ya...the label is where it gets good..



Fake on the left...



Now, here's all the problems with the label...the fake is from the left cigar, and is the top label...first, the left end of the band is straight cut...it should be rounded as the bottom label is...second the word Habana on the front is not as clear on the fake (top) as the real one (bottom) and the color under Bolivar's image is wrong, and the same goes for Bolivar's image itself which is not as sharp as on the bottom real label...you will notice that that while the gold medallions on the side are clearly embossed and stand out on the top fake, the amount of detail is far less than on the bottom real label...because of the limit of five images per post, part #2 of this will deal with the burning and smoking of both cigars...


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## Neuromancer (Sep 7, 2005)

A Tale of Two Stogies part #2...

Okay, so I clipped the ends of each cigar and did a smell test... fake cigar on the left, nice toasty tobacco smell...yumm...but not a Habano...real Boli on the right...hmmm...smells like a barnyard...bingo...we have a real Habano here...lit the fake and was surprised...thought it was gonna suck, but I discovered it was a very good cigar...draw was okay, had some burn issues, but it tasted good...it just didn't taste like a Habano...it was a very well-made and great tasting domestic smoke with a phony label...in fact, I'd buy these as a domestic...when you consider the fact that you can get a box of the real ones for about $125, that's only $5 a cigar, and this was good enough that it would probably sell for near that and it would be well received..it just wasn't a Habano...so now I light up the second cigar...whoa...bang...twang...this one's real..no doubt at all...great construction, burned great, definite Habano taste...so I took a picture of both of them burning so you can see the ash and the burn issue with the fake on the left...



All-in-all, I smoked one very good cigar that had a phony label and was a little off on a number of issues, but could really fool someone with no experience whatsoever with Habanos cigars, and one great Habano...love those Boli PC's...yumm...


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## TypeO- (Jan 4, 2006)

Thanks for the lesson. Hopefully most folk who encounter a fake are able to obtain a replacement or a refund. Unfortunately, this is not possible in some cases. I've just obtained nearly $200.00 worth of fakes. I'm still trying to resolved the situation.


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## Warhorse545 (Oct 16, 2005)

Thanks for that. For a non-cuban dude like me it is a dang good lesson.



Stacey


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## BeagleOne (Dec 23, 2005)

Damn, I was about to order my first box from a HK dealer too. Now I am a bit worried... may wait till I go to San Deigo and skip over to TJ for a box at LCdH.


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## RPB67 (Mar 26, 2005)

Good catch and comparision.

It all boils down to the same thing. You need to know and trust your source.


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## Millow (Dec 30, 2005)

Thank you, that was very informative. It made me check my one Boli PC, and thankfully mine's real as well. But that is a great fake. Would have fooled me for sure.


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## IHT (Dec 27, 2003)

just to be clear:

NOT ALL HK VENDORS SELL FAKES.

i hope we're not trying to smear a good vendors reputation around here.


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## RcktS4 (Jan 13, 2005)

RPB67 said:


> It all boils down to the same thing. You need to know and trust your source.


This is the most important thing you will ever hear about habanos. Please take note.

Even among real habanos, there is a wide latitude of variation in boxes. On another site, there is a prticularly humorous example of a box of real ERDM Demi Tasse with a mis-spelled stamp (Demy Tassy) - and these have been declared real by a gentleman I trust completely. Cuba is not always particularly consistent... 

The only thing I take any solace in at all is knowing and trusting the source(s) I use. This is indispensible, and it is ONE reason why this hobby requires some patience.

edit:


IHT said:


> NOT ALL HK VENDORS SELL FAKES.
> 
> i hope we're not trying to smear a good vendors reputation around here.


:tpd: - I hope this post doesn't lead to another :BS speculation fest...


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## SeanGAR (Jul 9, 2004)

Dunno .... I'm not convinced from that expose that the cigar is fake. Bands are highly variable, and from what I hear especially so on Bolvars. I've also noticed a lot of variation in the twang department, especially with newer cigars. 

The ash looks right ... the construction looks right .... the taste is flat and the band is slightly different. Could be a bad batch of cigars. What is the box code and what does the stamp look like?


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## coppertop (Dec 29, 2003)

Neuromancer said:


> Or a primer on how to spot a fugazi habano even though it's a good cigar, part #1...okay, here we go...to start with, I knew I had two Bolivar Petite Corona's in my humi and decided to smoke one this afternoon...so I pulled out both of them and what did my eyes behold? One of them was fake...now I know where they came from more or less and I will tell you now, that the fake one came out of Hong Kong as I have seen more of these previously...that should be a BIG clue to those of you that are perhaps trading with this HK merchant...what was really surprising upon comparing the two, was how much of a fooler the fake one could have been, especially to someone who has little knowledge of habanos...the following photos and captions will illustrate whereof I speak...


I would sure like to know what makes you an expert on Habanos? Raney is right, Cuba doesn't have, what some might call, great procedures to make sure every cigar that is *HAND* rolled is the exact length, color or even the best looking band. Remember these are made by individual people, try rolling thousands of cigars and see if any two are 100% a like. So instead of asking some one who might be able to tell you with more accuracy if the Boli PC on the left is a fake or not, you just decide to come one here, basically call out a vendor I've used, I've never received any fakes from him, and there are others who have been using him a hell of a lot longer then you or I and they haven't received fakes from him. I think you went about this all wrong. Also, why hasn't anybody asked where this 1 fake cigar came from. Are you trying to tell me you got a legit box that had one fake, or a box that was all "fake" but you just now noticed this 1 was a little shorter and a different color? I would like to know where you got this cigar (meaning did you buy it? do you have more? was it gifted to you? if you bought it where are the others? see what I'm getting at?). It is only fair considering the accusations you are claiming on this well known and used vendor.


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## brian (Jan 1, 2000)

Fake Boli PC is very unlikely IMO, the price's are just not high enough to interest the fake merchants. Your photo's do not convince me otherwise. They both look like real Boli's to me. Color means nothing as these vary depending on many factors, small difference's in length the same. Difference in band color etc happens.


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## IHT (Dec 27, 2003)

coppertop said:


> I would sure like to know what makes you an expert on Habanos? Raney is right, Cuba doesn't have, what some might call, great procedures to make sure every cigar that is *HAND* rolled is the exact length, color or even the best looking band. Remember these are made by individual people, try rolling thousands of cigars and see if any two are 100% a like. So instead of asking some one who might be able to tell you with more accuracy if the Boli PC on the left is a fake or not, you just decide to come one here, basically call out a vendor I've used, I've never received any fakes from him, and there are others who have been using him a hell of a lot longer then you or I and they haven't received fakes from him. I think you went about this all wrong. Also, why hasn't anybody asked where this 1 fake cigar came from. Are you trying to tell me you got a legit box that had one fake, or a box that was all "fake" but you just now noticed this 1 was a little shorter and a different color? I would like to know where you got this cigar (meaning did you buy it? do you have more? was it gifted to you? if you bought it where are the others? see what I'm getting at?). It is only fair considering the accusations you are claiming on this well known and used vendor.


did ya have to quote the entire fuggin post, mike?


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## coppertop (Dec 29, 2003)

IHT said:


> did ya have to quote the entire fuggin post, mike?


there, i edited it. happy now?:fu


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## croatan (Mar 23, 2005)

You say you know it came from HK. Did you buy it? Did you receive it directly from the vendor?

HK does not necessarily mean fake.
Bad band does not necessarily mean fake (especially a Bolivar).
And, no offense intended, but I don't have any reason to believe you could spot a fake or real Cuban cigar by smoking it.

If it came from a certain vendor, direct to you, then I'd be willing to bet it's real.

If you bought it, what have you done with the remainder? Are there any left? Was it part of a split? If you're going to call it fake, from a vendor, I think you ought to be able to back it up with some independent analysis by someone else.


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## SeanGAR (Jul 9, 2004)

coppertop said:


> So instead of asking some one who might be able to tell you with more accuracy if the Boli PC on the left is a fake or not, you just decide to come one here, basically call out a vendor I've used, I've never received any fakes from him, and there are others who have been using him a hell of a lot longer then you or I and they haven't received fakes from him.


In Neuro's defense, there are at least three vendors in HK, perhaps more. So just the location of the shop doesn't really represent calling out a vendor, although one of the three is much larger and well known than the others.


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## croatan (Mar 23, 2005)

SeanGAR said:


> In Neuro's defense, there are at least three vendors in HK, perhaps more. So just the location of the shop doesn't really represent calling out a vendor, although one of the three is much larger and well known than the others.


Very true. But the wording of his post makes it sound like he's calling out the entire region. Plus, when most people read or type HK, they have a certain person in mind. I hope that's not what Neuro was implying here.


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## coppertop (Dec 29, 2003)

SeanGAR said:


> In Neuro's defense, there are at least three vendors in HK, perhaps more. So just the location of the shop doesn't really represent calling out a vendor, although one of the three is much larger and well known than the others.


Yeah I know Sean, but I'm thinking he is refering to that particular one. But that's just my opinion.


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## Jason Love III (Apr 30, 2005)

I know it might not mean di_k to some, but to me, the cap on the left looks PERFECT. I don't have the experience, but the band also looked great on the "fake". Like Sean said, there are variances in the bands sometimes, but that "fake" was a DAMN good one if it is. Neuro still said it was a good cigar. I dunno man...Just my :2 for what it's worth...


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## sirxlaughs (Nov 18, 2005)

Let's not all start jumping on Neuro for posting something very informative. I don't see him calling anybody out. He's simply warning that a vendor might be peddling fakes. It's a possibility that if the fakes are good enough, not even the vendor himself would be aware. Yes, there are band variations straight out of cuba, but they are generally the same length. The band on the left doesn't seem to have the extra 'white' space. I also read some time back in another thread that the ash of a cuban cigar can melt, while others will not. I have neither tried nor confirmed this, so I can not say if it will work. I have also dealt quite a bit with a vendor from Honk Kong, and everything I've received seems to be just fine (including a cab of boli pc's, no funky looking labels). Even the best can get fooled. It's not so hard to believe the counterfeiters will get better at what they do. We just hope that their kind doesn't infect our trusted sources, from Hong Kong, or elsewhere.


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## SeanGAR (Jul 9, 2004)

sirxlaughs said:


> Let's not all start jumping on Neuro for posting something very informative.


With all due respect, the only thing that I take from this post is that two cigars had different looking bands and tasted different. Suggesting categorically that one was a fake seems quite a stretch.


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## sirxlaughs (Nov 18, 2005)

SeanGAR said:


> With all due respect, the only thing that I take from this post is that two cigars had different looking bands and tasted different. Suggesting categorically that one was a fake seems quite a stretch.


The authenticity of the cigars is solely his opinion. No one has to agree with it. I still find the pictures and information quite useful. Generally a variance in band, smell, and taste is an indication that something is possibly not right. I have already pm'd Neuro, and he has told me that right now he only has suspicions of this particular vendor. After reading this post, my brother and I went through our entire stash, some of which was aquired from this particular vendor. Everything checked out (CA has a nice gallery of bands) as far as appearance and smell (taste will have to wait). He did however discover a variant in a particular cigar he received, and has notified the source of it's peculiarity. So far, I've had nothing but good dealing with this vendor and will continue to deal with him.
Another thing to notice on the fake boli band is that the red lines are not perfectly lined up with the gold border. I've seen variances in the pressing of the medalions, and the size of the gold border that runs along the top of the band, but I have yet to see a variance where the red lines are that far off mark. Then again, those silly Cubans have done weirder things. yea?


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## Da Klugs (Jan 8, 2005)

More or Less? How about some more....

Did you get these directly from vendors?

Do you have the original boxes for comparision?

If they came from an individual then we are dealing with he said she said.


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## Puffy69 (Sep 8, 2005)

I cant believe somebody would counterfeit a common pc. Doesnt seem cost effective.


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

My friend just bought 3 boxes of Cohiba Robustos on two different orders (from HK), and the first box had the Habanos sticker screwed up, the cigars didn't have enough tobacco in them, and a couple of other things that made them look questionable.

The questionable box was the best smoking out of the three, and I don't think they would push fakes. What would they gain out of it besides a bad name to an incredible business they've built?

I do believe that somewhere between the factory and store that someone may have pulled switcheroo's on a box and thrown in a fake, without the store knowing and before they get them. People are poor in Cuba and are just looking to make a buck here and there. I know this has happened at LCdH several years ago.


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## RcktS4 (Jan 13, 2005)

sirxlaughs said:


> Let's not all start jumping on Neuro for posting something very informative. I don't see him calling anybody out.


Not jumping on anyone here, but posts like this can lead to problems. His statements about the vendor in HK being a good clue to others comes a bit close to that. What the posts since then are opointing to is the fact that the evidence he's presented looks pretty shaky to a lot of us. Because it does seem (and neuro pretty much said he intended this) to point to a certain vendor that a lot of people have used, there is concern about damaging his reputation.

Now, I think that posts like this are good and helpful when tehy are verified, but IMO it looks like maybe a little more research might have been wise before posting this as fake. Personally, I would have asked a lot of opinions from some of the guys here with a lot more experience before announcing a fake. Maybe Neuro did this, and the requests for more info here are an attempt to establish this.

Because there can be so much 'mob mentality' surrounding fakery, such claims are something I take very seriously - damage can be done, and we are dealing with people's livelihoods here. While I understand why he may conclude this to be fake, based on what he's presented here, that evidence looks very shaky to me, and apparently to a lot of others as well.

:2


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## IHT (Dec 27, 2003)

SeanGAR said:


> With all due respect, the only thing that I take from this post is that two cigars had different looking bands and tasted different. Suggesting categorically that one was a fake seems quite a stretch.


my main issue was the slander of a vendor before it was made absolutely certain that these are/were fake and from said vendor.


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## Da Klugs (Jan 8, 2005)

Neuromancer said:


> Or a primer on how to spot a fugazi habano even though it's a good cigar, part #1...okay, here we go...to start with, I knew I had two Bolivar Petite Corona's in my humi and decided to smoke one this afternoon...so I pulled out both of them and what did my eyes behold? One of them was fake...*now I know where they came from more or less and I will tell you now, that the fake one came out of Hong Kong *as I have seen more of these previously...that should be a BIG clue to those of you that are perhaps trading with this HK merchant...what was really surprising upon comparing the two, was how much of a fooler the fake one could have been, especially to someone who has little knowledge of habanos...the following photos and captions will illustrate whereof I speak...


The more or less I find troubling. This appears to be a single cigar, or 2 single cigars you had in your humi. Are they from full dress boxes or cabs that you purchased direct from vendors? Or are they cigars sent to you in a trade or pass or individual sale? If you did not buy these direct I believe a bit more discussion on their origins and chain of custody is in order to draw any firm conclusions.


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## coppertop (Dec 29, 2003)

Da Klugs said:


> The more or less I find troubling. This appears to be a single cigar, or 2 single cigars you had in your humi. Are they from full dress boxes or cabs that you purchased direct from vendors? Or are they cigars sent to you in a trade or pass or individual sale? If you did not buy these direct I believe a bit more discussion on their origins and chain of custody is in order to draw any firm conclusions.


Thats exactly what I was asking him....where did these come from?


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## Neuromancer (Sep 7, 2005)

RcktS4 said:


> ...Now, I think that posts like this are good and helpful when they are verified, but IMO it looks like maybe a little more research might have been wise before posting this as fake. Personally, I would have asked a lot of opinions from some of the guys here with a lot more experience before announcing a fake. Maybe Neuro did this, and the requests for more info here are an attempt to establish this...


I did discuss this with a number of people who were all familiar with the cigar I identified as a fake...if you want me to say it's potentially a fake, and I'm not positive, then fine by me, no problem...wasn't looking to cause a controversy, sorry...I am also not saying that all HK vendors are selling fakes...I was referring to a vendor that supplied several boxes to someone here and they were pretty much suspect and most of the people on the board know about that, and when it all went down, and I didn't feel like I wanted to specifically point any fingers, or stir that pot again...this cigar was identical to those that I saw in the original box and they came from the vendor that is implied...so okay, maybe most of the stuff that's sold is legit...maybe only some of it isn't...the purpose for this was to show the difference between the two cigars, and to imply that I have no knowledge of Habanos and don't know what I'm talking about isn't what this is about either...I've smoked cigars on and off for the last 15-20 years sporadically, lately more on than off...I know what a Habano tastes like but like anyone else, I am sure I could be fooled...and like I said, the one on the left was a good cigar...it just didn't taste like a Habano and there was enough of a difference in it, verses the one on the right, that definitely tasted like a Habano, to make me suspicious of it...perhaps I could have worded my post a bit differently...it was just supposed to be informational, and not designed to stir up trouble...most of you, I am sure, know of the source I suspect, as it was a hotly debated topic a number of months ago...I am not pointing any specific fingers...basically, it all boils down to knowing and trusting your source...me, personally, I wouldn't buy from this source...as for any/all of the rest of you, if you trust whoever your source might be and like what you get from them, then that's all that counts and anything I say is not going to change your minds about it, nor was that my intention...and my more or less comment was because I am not 100% sure, and that's why I said that, so you would know this was my opinion and you could take it with a grain of salt...I am not telling to to buy from someone or not buy from someone...that's up to you...I thought this would be informative, and if it isn't then I am sorry to have wound everyone up...

PS - If you want, I'd be happy to pull the pictures, and not post anything like this again as it appears to have aggravated a number of you...in the future when I find stuff like this I'll just smoke it if it's a good cigar or ditch it if it isn't, and let it go...


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## Da Klugs (Jan 8, 2005)

More curious than irritated.

Where did you get the cigars from is the question that keeps being asked. And how do you know for certain if they did not come to you direct, where they came from.

Given the nature of your first 2 posts it does not seem a question that is out of line.


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## Neuromancer (Sep 7, 2005)

Okay, guys, let's just assume for sake of argument that I don't know what I'm talking about, and I'm wrong, and please ignore that I had anything to say about this...the photos have been removed...Sean, if you're the mod for that forum please remove the thread, or could you ask whoever the mod is to do so...I don't want to stir anything up or aggravate anyone with my opinion, and I certainly don't need the anxiety of getting everyone wound up and causing a heated debate to start...


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## croatan (Mar 23, 2005)

Neuromancer said:


> Okay, guys, let's just assume for sake of argument that I don't know what I'm talking about, and I'm wrong, and please ignore that I had anything to say about this...the photos have been removed...Sean, if you're the mod for that forum please remove the thread, or could you ask whoever the mod is to do so...I don't want to stir anything up or aggravate anyone with my opinion, and I certainly don't need the anxiety of getting everyone wound up and causing a heated debate to start...


Removing the thread doesn't answer the questions that have been posed to you. From where did you get the cigar(s)?


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## SeanGAR (Jul 9, 2004)

Neuromancer said:


> Okay, guys, let's just assume for sake of argument that I don't know what I'm talking about, and I'm wrong, and please ignore that I had anything to say about this...the photos have been removed...Sean, if you're the mod for that forum please remove the thread, or could you ask whoever the mod is to do so...I don't want to stir anything up or aggravate anyone with my opinion, and I certainly don't need the anxiety of getting everyone wound up and causing a heated debate to start...


Mods here are poker and mo.


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## IHT (Dec 27, 2003)

Neuro, nobody is upset about the topic of the post.
the only thing i wanted cleared up is not dragging a vendor into (yet).
dave is asking where the cigars came from (did you buy them, did you buy a sampler, etc, etc.)

issues like THESE are what allows others to learn....

it helps us resolve the issues of righting someone who's been wronged...

and maybe the person you got these from did NOT know they were fakes to beginwith...

anyway, it's a learning experience.


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## MoTheMan (May 24, 2003)

RcktS4 said:


> Not jumping on anyone here, but posts like this can lead to problems. His statements about the vendor in HK being a good clue to others comes a bit close to that. What the posts since then are opointing to is the fact that the evidence he's presented looks pretty shaky to a lot of us. Because it does seem (and neuro pretty much said he intended this) to point to a certain vendor that a lot of people have used, there is concern about damaging his reputation.
> 
> Now, I think that posts like this are good and helpful when tehy are verified, but IMO it looks like maybe a little more research might have been wise before posting this as fake. Personally, I would have asked a lot of opinions from some of the guys here with a lot more experience before announcing a fake. Maybe Neuro did this, and the requests for more info here are an attempt to establish this.
> 
> ...


Good advice!



IHT said:


> Neuro, nobody is upset about the topic of the post.
> the only thing i wanted cleared up is not dragging a vendor into (yet).
> dave is asking where the cigars came from (did you buy them, did you buy a sampler, etc, etc.)
> 
> ...


More good advice!

You know people, I've been asked to delete this thread. No, I don't think I'm going to do that right away . . . amybe let it stand for a few days then I'll delete it.

This past weekend I was smoking with a few old gorillas and one of them turned to me & said, "Man, I don't think I'm going to give out any more names of sources for Cuban cigars to anyone. People just aren't being careful enough, they aren't experienced enough, and they just don't realize what a hassle it is when the US Customs shuts down a good vendor supplying sticks to US customer because everyone just keeps talking & talking about it."

BTW, this sort of thing happened on CW last year. Just 'cause someone is buying loads & loads of Cubans doesn't make them an expert all of a sudden, it only makes them someone with a large inventory.

I would recommend: 1) More patience and be sure of what you're saying and posting before you do so. 2) Seek advice from some of the FOG's, they know an awful lot, and there are many here on this board that I've learned a lot from myself. 3) Always be careful when mentioning anything relating to vendors. You don't want to bring undue attention to a vendor that someone may be counting on for purchases of Cuban cigars, even if they're only supplying them to overseas customers. 4) Keep in mind that if you don't have experience with Cuban cigars, YOU ARE GOING TO MAKE MISTAKES!!! That's how you'll learn. Most FOG's I know became that way because they too made mistakes at least once. 5) If you got some fakes, well, remember, this is an expensive lesson, but it will become a valuable one. 6) Always remember to chill out with a good smoke.


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## Puffy69 (Sep 8, 2005)

MoTheMan said:


> Good advice!
> 
> More good advice!
> 
> ...


*MO...YOU ARE THE MAN!* Thanks for the advise..Sometimes we forget..Dont want to ruin a good thang ya know.


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## Neuromancer (Sep 7, 2005)

I would really rather drop this...I was wrong in posting it, and it won't happen again...I have nothing to say here that would be of benefit to anybody...it doesn't matter where or who it came from...you all have your sources that you trust and I am not about to start pointing any fingers without being 100% positive..you all have brought up enough questions about it that I don't feel comfortable responding any further, and since I am not 100% positive let's just assume for sake of arguement that I was wrong...


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## Da Klugs (Jan 8, 2005)

It matters to many or we would not have posted questions here.

Many here spend hard earned $$$ on their passion for cigars. Trusting vendors is the foundation which helps you enjoy a cigar. Creating doubt about a vendor creates doubt about the cigars. When this is unjustified, it's uncool. When it's justified it adds value to all of us. Leaving this where it is is a disservice to us all.

Mo is wise. How about sharing the details with Mo via PM and letting him provide an explanation here / investigation privately to either substantiate or clear the geographic regional vendor concern?


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

At a minimum you should say that you'll reply to PM inquiries to who the vendor is. I don't think it's tasteful to post a vendor's name, but if members are asking where you got them, etc... I think it's appropriate to respond privately. I am curious as well. A reputable vendor should take the box back, especially if you're spending thousands a year as many of us are.


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## IHT (Dec 27, 2003)

this HAS TO BE RESOLVED. if you bought some cigars that you feel are fake, and it was a sampler or 5 pack or split with someone on the board, maybe someone else has purchased from the same box and might have fakes as well.

this isn't trying to "harm" anyone, it is trying to help everyone.


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## RcktS4 (Jan 13, 2005)

Neuromancer said:


> I would really rather drop this...I was wrong in posting it, and it won't happen again...I have nothing to say here that would be of benefit to anybody...it doesn't matter where or who it came from...you all have your sources that you trust and I am not about to start pointing any fingers without being 100% positive..you all have brought up enough questions about it that I don't feel comfortable responding any further, and since I am not 100% positive let's just assume for sake of arguement that I was wrong...


Neuro, I can absolutely understand you wanting to drop this, but it is not an option at this point. No one is trying to crucify you, but with this sort of stuff it is very important that there is 'transparency' in the jungle. Whether intentional or not, your post brings up some ambiguous doubt about vendors and traders on here - that cannot stand as it is, and it is not alleviated by your "sorry I said anything" retraction. There are numerous ways to resolve this, but as it stands now there are just more questions, and this undermines the trust that holds this place together.

I understand that you want to avoid conflict, or maybe feel liike you wish you could just take it all back, but you can't. Dave's suggestion about talking to Mo, who is indeed a very wise gorilla, makes a lot of sense to me. There are others you could also speak to - IHT (who, even though bald, is wise beyond his hair) might be another alternative. he doesn't bite.

:2


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## Ms. Floydp (Jan 7, 2005)

the one thing that I do know is I'd hate to see this thread get deleted. There is WAYYYY too much good advice on here for all us newbies.


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## Bruce5 (Jul 27, 2003)

I am no pro here, but:
I have learned to be very, very, very careful before ever stating the word "fake"..... as I have seen/heard even the greatest of all get fooled.

I do not think we should mention any thing about a vendor, not the name of the establishment, the name of the proprietor, the location or any detail.

I think Neuro does not have to finish this with any of you guys. 
He admits he made a mistake, he took down the pix and asked for the thread to be removed. This is not going to harm any of your precious cigar buying. If you have the experience you guys let on you have, then buying fakes should not really be a concern. He wanted to drop it and who are you guys to continue pushing him. Not that I am wiping his ass or that he can not stand up for himself....but 
This is not what Club Stogie is about.

Let's see you guys come at me after I make a mistake and admit I was wrong.

Neuro, you do not have to answer any of their questions. 
You did not even have to validate who you were and how long you have been smoking. Definitely do not let post count or how long someone has been here have any influence on anything you do either.

I would be happy to answer any of your questions or authenticate any of your cigars.


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## Sean9689 (Nov 9, 2005)

Bruce, well said bro! Fake is definetly a word everyone should use with caution. If you think a cigar might be suspect, there are lots of FOG's who would be happy to help you out around here.


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## RcktS4 (Jan 13, 2005)

Bruce5 said:


> I think Neuro does not have to finish this with any of you guys.
> He admits he made a mistake, he took down the pix and asked for the thread to be removed. This is not going to harm any of your precious cigar buying. If you have the experience you guys let on you have, then buying fakes should not really be a concern. He wanted to drop it and who are you guys to continue pushing him. Not that I am wiping his ass or that he can not stand up for himself....but
> This is not what Club Stogie is about.


This hits closer to home than I'm comfortable with.

Neuro, Bruce is right - you owe no one anything. Please accept my apologies for 'pushing' on this thread.


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## IHT (Dec 27, 2003)

bruce, i consider us friends, love to hear from you on the phone and all that, but there is MORE to this story than just Neuromancer.

it's not about him at all, it's about who he got the cigars from.

i might give you a quick phone call later this afternoon...

bottom line: 
i've gotten massive amounts of PMs from people who have said they've been sold fakes. it's always been the same 3 peoples names that come up.

what I, and some of the others, are trying to do is get this all resolved so everyone is taken care of and hopefully let others learn from this.

my issue was never with Neuromancer, other than mentioning a vendors location, which you also had an issue with...

so, again, there are reportedly a lot of fakes that are being sold in CLUB STOGIES "WTS" AREA. they are being sold by, and bought by, members who are fairly new to clubstogie and fairly new to cuban cigars.

sure, even the most knowledged on here can be fooled, and that also leads some of us to speculate that some of these "fakes" might not really be fakes in the first place....

this is a lot of the stuff that we're trying to resolve. if Neuromance doesn't want to help, and feels that HE is being looked down upon here, that is NOT THE CASE, and i don't have a problem if he doesn't want to help.

i'll give you a call later (if my cell phone ever charges - having problems with that today for some reason).


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## Ivory Tower (Nov 18, 2005)

Neuromancer said:


> if you want me to say it's potentially a fake, and I'm not positive, then fine by me, no problem...wasn't looking to cause a controversy....


I guess that's the best solution for future posts; if you express your thoughts as opinions or queries, instead of making them sound like facts.


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## 12stones (Jan 6, 2006)

Gotta say that as a newbie I appreciate that these threads aren't deleted. Even though the subject matter is volatile, it still helps to learn other things that surround the issues.


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## IHT (Dec 27, 2003)

12stones said:


> Gotta say that as a newbie I appreciate that these threads aren't *deleted*. Even though the subject matter is volatile, it still helps to learn other things that surround the issues.


why would it get deleted?
there have only been a few topics that get deleted, and those are when jerkovvs are trying to stir the pot.

no, this could be a very useful topic if it ever gets resolved, but judging by the reactions were getting, and all the PMs, you all can learn the hard way. some of us are trying to help....

CLICK HERE FOR MY FINAL THOUGHTS! the last line, chumps. "don't want no help, don't get no help."


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## One Lonely Smoker (Jan 21, 2005)

Since no one is killing it and it is nowhere near a brawl in here, I will say some crap related to the point, or not, I never know. IHT said something about a herf or something where someone said it's just not worth it to give someone a source, cause 5 in ten times, they **** it up. This is not pointed at Neuro, this is a thought on something said earlier. Whether they say something smart to the Postman, or they throw cigars back in the face of vendors without really knowing what they are talking about, in some way they find a way to make the giver sorry they gave. I myself bitched out my first vendor over, yes, bands (on Bolivars..geez) and said the wrappers were too light for a Boli, dark wrappers are set aside for specific houses, Boli for starters, blablabla. I was wrong. He was right, but I didn't know shit at the time, and I felt like a chump much later. But I was making my first order. Point is, you get mad, and I will never fault someone deeply for getting mad and typing some shit without thinking.

On the point of making this an issue that must be resolved, I am tamer on that, I say whatever...I mean someone is going to get to the bottom of it cause that's what some people do, and it helps alot of people. But I don't care. But after the fact when it's solved, a person might feel bad or even look bad once the facts are out, better to talk about it in private in a helpful manner and look alot better on the other end. But if it was me, I am not sure what I would do. Trading is not fun for everyone and it's a bad idea for about half that do it. It's just burn city, especially if you are struggling at the beginning and you desparately want a vendor. Fivers are a great tool for a number of people's use, very easy to get burned cause you usually only see the 5 cigars, no box no code no nothing. At that point it's easy to find five cigars that look like they came from the same box.

But know who you deal with and like Mo said, there is not a single person in here that has not been burned, usually at the beginning, or certainly when they got greedy or desparate. No one is gonna say, "well, you did it wrong, you're a dummy." That's just forgeting how hard it is to break the law and act like you aren't because you're in a club. Like Club Burgular, or something. But until you are sure you are getting the real thing, sharing the wealth with others leads to disaster. It's easier to eat a lesson than to have to PAY for 5 other people's lesson with your own money cause you started it.

:2 :ms :BS BlaBla, as usual I just like to type.


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## Neuromancer (Sep 7, 2005)

I really don't know what you guys want me to say here..I am going give you what info I can and what I've heard but that's about it...I am not 100% positive and I don't think I have anything to say that would be beneficial to anyone at this point, and I am not going to point any fingers as the one that I had halfway out damn near got chopped off...I did not buy these for the umpteenth time..I have nothing against any vendor...one of the cigars was a gift...one came in a PIF...I don't remember which came from where or when or whom...here's the only info I have...I pulled them both out of my humidor at the same time and noticed the discrepancies as I listed above...if you want me to put the pictures back, say so and I will, but don't shoot the messenger...I have seen real Boli's as I have a number of them from a source that at the moment I trust completely as everything I've gotten from them has been kosher, at least as far as I know, and as far as a few guys that I've shown them to, agreed, guys with far more knowledge than me...that sort of takes care of the one that I am *pretty sure* is legit...as for the other one, there were so many discrepancies that I said it was a fake, and of that I am *pretty sure* but I am *NOT 100% positive*, and probably never will be considering how many of you seemed to feel I was wrong...okay, no problem, I'm wrong...the only other fact I can add is that I have seen a box, previously, of the ones with the discrepancies, and it was not my opinion alone, that there was *something* wrong about them, and I am not going to start naming names or dragging anyone else into this...suffice it to say, I was not the only one down here who saw that box and tasted cigars out of it that felt they weren't quite right...these that I mention that came from the box were *identical* to the cigar I posted here about that had the discrepancies that were outlined in my post and in the pictures...I was told what vendor they came from, but that is hearsay at this point, as I am not 100% positive, and I am not gonna point a finger at any vendor considering all of the above posted in this thread...it all boils down to your trusting your source...I'm sure I could be fooled, and I'd be willing to bet even a vendor could be fooled, although considering the business they're in they should not be fooled as they should know what they're sellling...so as I said, one was a gift and one came in a PIF...which is which at this point I can't say...I know which one I feel was legit and which one wasn't...here is a link to a CA article...

CA Counterfeits

According to CA, the top label is legit, the bottom label is not...the one I felt was legit had the match of the top label...the one I felt was not legit had the bottom label...as I said I saw more of these a few months ago, felt they weren't legit then, and since the one I smoked that had discrepancies was identical in look, feel, taste, and label, to the ones we've questioned that we saw down here I am pretty sure it wasn't legit but like I've said, I'm not 100% positive and am not pointing any fingers at this time...here is my picture of the labels again...you compare them and you'll see why I felt as I did...

My labels are reversed from the CA pictures, but of the two I had the one I felt was legit matched the top label in the CA article and is on the bottom in my picture...the one that I felt wasn't matched the bottom label in the CA article, the top label in my picture..and this is pretty much all I can say at this point as I'm not about to order an entire box from where I think these came from just to find out if they're right or wrong, thus, I'm not naming any vendor without positive proof...if you guys have trusted sources wherein you think everything is copacetic, far be it from me to tell you otherwise...hope this about wraps this up as it's really not going anywhere...


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## IHT (Dec 27, 2003)

well, i thought i'd be quiet but after seeing those photos that "CA" feels are legit and fake, i dug into my own personal stash of labels and found one from a Boli CJ, and then looked at the close-ups of my Boli RCs (both of which were as legit as could be).

the RCs had the band like the one on the bottom, and the CJs had the band like the one on the top.

here's a photo of my RCs and you can see by the side of the band, the medalions look like the photo on the bottom.



i don't have a close-up of the band of my CJs, but the medalions look like the one on the top. i have a further away photo though. 













all i can say - hope you get it all figured out. 
sorry to bother, good luck, etc, etc, etc.


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## Neuromancer (Sep 7, 2005)

I'd love to see a close-up of the labels on the CJ's in the bottom photo...and that's why I said what I did about trusting your sources as I'm not about to try and change anyone's mind...you have to go with your own feelings about what you are seeing and getting...


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## IHT (Dec 27, 2003)

here it tis.


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## Bruce5 (Jul 27, 2003)

Greg,
You are my friend and it was nice to hear from you today.
Sorry to hear about the issues you expressed.


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## jgros001 (Jun 14, 2005)

Interesting discussion on Boli bands....checked my boxes today. Although, I don't have many, none are exactly alike. Simon's shirt is a different color in all three boxes - all from what I believe to be legit boxes.

Hope everything works out for all parties. 

Being new to Habanos, I scrutinize everthing that comes in. It is very difficult starting out without the experience in knowing real from not. Also, no matter how many times you hear that the vendor you are using is legit, you don't have the experience or rapport to have the absolute trust that the FOGs have. I have found that it is best to buy in boxes (as OLS has said) - it gives you the whole picture. Plus, it is much easier to discern that smell you are looking for from a box than a single cigar. 

Some wise words expressed in this thread for us newbs to learn from.


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## poker (Dec 11, 1997)

You guys crack me up.:r

The proof of a counterfit is usually *never* just one thing like a band alone.
Example:
Are the boxes like other Bolivar boxes of the same vintage? Do the ring & length of the cigars in question fit the profile of what the vitola is supposed to be? *Do the Bolivars in question taste like other Bolivars of the same vintage & format?* Are the cigar wrappers all uniform in color? Is the source someone you trust beyond reproch?

C'mon guys...its gonna take much more than just a band to say real or fake (unless the band is done on a cheap inkjet printer).

Also keep in mind that the pigments used can vary, so color of a band or box will vary. Want proof? Inspect 25 different Cohiba bands that came from different boxes. Virtulally all the bands will vary slightly on the yellow/orange they use.


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## brian (Jan 1, 2000)

I probably shouldnt throw in my 2 cents, but here goes anways I am by no means a FOG but I have being around long enough to know that the issues of fake cigars is IMO vastly overblown. The vast vast majority of retailers that you may see here and on other enthusiast message boards do not knowingly sell fakes. Does the occasional fugazi slip through,yes and most disputes will be settled privately without a problem if you bring it to their attention in a civilized way. That means you do not panic and run to the message boards crying Fake! Fake! A simple polite PM to a FOG here will usually put your mind at rest in most instances. Remember they are businessmen and they know how touchy this subject is to everyone, they do not want to blow up their business for the sake of a few bucks.

Furthermore once you get outside the Cohiba and Montecristo brands your chances of getting fakes are even less again.

This is in no way directed at Neuro. Just some general info for any cigar newbies 



poker said:


> You guys crack me up.:r
> 
> The proof of a counterfit is usually *never* just one thing like a band alone.
> Example:
> ...


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## Neuromancer (Sep 7, 2005)

poker said:


> ...The proof of a counterfit is usually *never* just one thing like a band alone.
> Example:
> Are the boxes like other Bolivar boxes of the same vintage? Do the ring & length of the cigars in question fit the profile of what the vitola is supposed to be? *Do the Bolivars in question taste like other Bolivars of the same vintage & format?* Are the cigar wrappers all uniform in color?...


If you read my original post it wasn't just the band alone...it was the label, plus the RG, the length, the smell, and the taste...I guess I should put the pictures up again...


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## SeanGAR (Jul 9, 2004)

Neuro, you made the initial post in good faith. Even if some people, myself included, don't see the evidence of the cigars in question being fake, thats really beside the point. There is a reason that the FOGs keep saying "know your source".


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## Da Klugs (Jan 8, 2005)

Got curious. Sorted thru the "from others" humi for bolis..

Rainbow hue's and some crazy interesting band differences. They all have tasted great so far.


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## IHT (Dec 27, 2003)

Neuromancer said:


> ...it was the label, plus the RG, the length, the smell, and the taste...


what label? the RG looks identical. the lenght? 2mm's is what, about 1/16", which is common from even the same box. not all cubans have the barnyard aroma. not all cubans will taste like the same vitola from a different year/different factory/different box. not all cubans will have that twang, especially on a box that's just off (like the box split i did with BBFs - they were horrible, except the ones i sent to other ppl to try  ).

coppertop and i split a box of Monte #3s a long time ago. his all burned bad (like in your photo), and didn't taste that good to him. mine, the other 13 from that box ALL burned perfectly, and tasted great. he gave me one of his (from the same box that we split) and sure enough, burned very bad and didn't taste that good.

that ash in the photo is dark as could be.

ah well. doesn't matter, neuro. if you're not happy with em, thats all that matters. im sure the vendor wouldn't hesitate to take em back

(sorry, my apostrophe key doesnt want to work)


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## coppertop (Dec 29, 2003)

IHT said:


> coppertop and i split a box of Monte #3s a long time ago. his all burned bad (like in your photo), and didn't taste that good to him. mine, the other 13 from that box ALL burned perfectly, and tasted great. he gave me one of his (from the same box that we split) and sure enough, burned very bad and didn't taste that good.


I had forgotten about those Monte#3's, the JL#2 however were awsome


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## IHT (Dec 27, 2003)

coppertop said:


> I had forgotten about those Monte#3's, the JL#2 however were awsome


what'chew talkin 'bout, mike?

those montes were awesome.


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## coppertop (Dec 29, 2003)

IHT said:


> what'chew talkin 'bout, mike?
> 
> those montes were awesome.


Listen here Willis, your Montes were awsome, mine were awful:tg


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## IHT (Dec 27, 2003)

i was gonna say something sick in regards to willis and dan plato, and the term "hittin that"... but figured it would bomb. :s


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## MoTheMan (May 24, 2003)

Da Klugs said:


> Got curious. Sorted thru the "from others" humi for bolis..
> 
> Rainbow hue's and some crazy interesting band differences. They all have tasted great so far.


Dave,

You're such a cigar slut!!:r


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## Da Klugs (Jan 8, 2005)

MoTheMan said:


> Dave,
> 
> You're such a cigar slut!!:r


:r Just realized that is my fat belly in the pic. Man I gotta get me some .....

Baby back, baby back, baby back ribs. 

Have a nice weekend everyone.


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## hollywood (Feb 15, 2005)

Da Klugs said:


> :r Just realized that is my fat belly in the pic. Man I gotta get me some .....
> 
> Baby back, baby back, baby back ribs.
> 
> Have a nice weekend everyone.


:r MFAO!! You are the man Dave!!


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## dadof3illinois (Nov 7, 2004)

Da Klugs said:


> :r Just realized that is my fat belly in the pic. Man I gotta get me some .....
> 
> Baby back, baby back, baby back ribs.
> 
> Have a nice weekend everyone.


:r Until you said something about you belly I didn't even notice it in the pic!!!!! You've got a long way to go before you in my league though dave.


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## dadof3illinois (Nov 7, 2004)

coppertop said:


> I had forgotten about those Monte#3's, the JL#2 however were awsome


I have to agreen with Mike here Greg. He sent me a huge bomb when I first started here at CS that included one of those Monte #3's and it sucked!!!! The Monte #5 he sent was awsome but the #3 was just flat as heck.


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## IHT (Dec 27, 2003)

dadof3illinois said:


> I have to agreen with Mike here Greg. He sent me a huge bomb when I first started here at CS that included one of those Monte #3's and it sucked!!!! The Monte #5 he sent was awsome but the #3 was just flat as heck.


maybe his half of that box was fake, and somehow i got the 13 real ones??


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## coppertop (Dec 29, 2003)

IHT said:


> maybe his half of that box was fake, and somehow i got the 13 real ones??


Yep that's it, do you think it's to late to ask for a refund?


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## dadof3illinois (Nov 7, 2004)

IHT said:


> maybe his half of that box was fake, and somehow i got the 13 real ones??


You did check the bands right!!!.......J/K.


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## One Lonely Smoker (Jan 21, 2005)

THAT IS A GREAT PIC, Dave. Few people have the clout to pull together a pic like that. Nice of you to do that. The color of the tunic is what has always amazed me, and CA never backed off their yellow-orange color requirements. I have a few of those dark-violet tunic ones and I love em. It is bad-ass, he even looks a little more butch. Simon that is.


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## Trout (Oct 4, 2006)

jgros001 said:


> Interesting discussion on Boli bands....checked my boxes today. Although, I don't have many, none are exactly alike. Simon's shirt is a different color in all three boxes - all from what I believe to be legit boxes.
> 
> Holly cow I just looked at a Boli band on one I had and Simon was wearing a Tank top.
> But it smoked great...slight Banana taste with an finish reminiscent of an old newspaper.


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## burninator (Jul 11, 2006)

Trout said:


> Holly cow I just looked at a Boli band on one I had and Simon was wearing a Tank top.
> But it smoked great...slight Banana taste with an finish reminiscent of an old newspaper.


I've been looking for weeks for a line on the Boli Wife Beater DeLuxe! I can't find a box with a hologram, though. :tg


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