# Can your humi temp be too low??



## FN in MT (Jan 22, 2008)

My basement is finished, does not have water/humidity issues, but unless I heat it....it's quite cool most of the time. Currently we are at 48-50 degrees. In the summer it seldom goes above 65 unless I open the outside doors or a window.

Will I have issues with my humidor as my Man Cave IS the basement. And...what should I set my humidity at considering the low temp??

Fn in MT


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## Bear (Sep 22, 2007)

FN in MT said:


> My basement is finished, does not have water/humidity issues, but unless I heat it....it's quite cool most of the time. Currently we are at 48-50 degrees. In the summer it seldom goes above 65 unless I open the outside doors or a window.
> 
> Will I have issues with my humidor as my Man Cave IS the basement. And...what should I set my humidity at considering the low temp??
> 
> Fn in MT


I don't see anything wrong with the lower temp, but I'm by no means an expert on the topic... 
FWIW bump to the top in hopes that someone who knows sees this and answers.

Great question. :tu


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## Darrell (Aug 12, 2007)

As long as it's not freezing, you're fine. :tu


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## SilverFox (Feb 19, 2008)

Lower temp means a slower aging process for your cigars. Based on what I just read in the Minn Encyclopedia, the humidity is the larger concern.


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## Gamecock (Mar 15, 2008)

silverfox67 said:


> the humidity is the larger concern.


Indeed. I would not worry about temperature if I were you--should be no cause for concern.

Gamecock


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## FN in MT (Jan 22, 2008)

Thanks for the replies.....should have the new Aristocrat by the end of the month........with any Luck and some speedy Truckers. :tu

FN in MT:cb


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## BostonMark (Sep 12, 2007)

Because RH is so directly related to temp, you may find that it is harder to keep it as high as 65% at a lower temp, but if you can get it that high then go for it.


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## jkorp (Sep 27, 2007)

The only thing to watch at the 48-50 range is your humidity. It gets hard to stabalize RH this cold. If your using a cooler or something plastic and air tight you'll be fine. If you are using a wood humi that breaths you'll just need to keep and eye on it. :2


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## Martix_agent (Jan 27, 2008)

jkorp said:


> The only thing to watch at the 48-50 range is your humidity. It gets hard to stabalize RH this cold. If your using a cooler or something plastic and air tight you'll be fine. If you are using a wood humi that breaths you'll just need to keep and eye on it. :2


how would you go about solving the low RH problem at a low temperature? As far as I know, it's not possible once the RH is maxed out, correct?


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## lenguamor (Nov 23, 2006)

If you're aging for the long run, (years) that is fine.

Just be vigilant if your area experiences a sudden temperature rise; the sticks in the cabinet will retain the cold longer than the rising temp outside the box, causing condensation. It can be a real problem for both the sticks and the humidor.


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## pinoyman (Jan 28, 2005)

FN in MT said:


> My basement is finished, does not have water/humidity issues, but unless I heat it....it's quite cool most of the time. Currently we are at 48-50 degrees. In the summer it seldom goes above 65 unless I open the outside doors or a window.
> 
> Will I have issues with my humidor as my Man Cave IS the basement. And...what should I set my humidity at considering the low temp??
> 
> Fn in MT


although cooler storage temperatures are definitely not a problem for cigars (as long as you maintain a reasonable relative humidity).

Why do we attempt to keep them at 70 deg. then? The key is in the subtle difference between stable storage and true aging. Your cigars will not age, mature, mellow, or develop the complex character of well cured smokes at lower temperatures. The blended tobaccos will not "marry", and if you're keeping them for a long time you won't get the subtle changes in flavor.

There have been several long threads in a.s.c. on the need to age La Gloria Cubanas, for example. These will stay "green" much longer if aged at cooler temperatures.

At higher temperatures, there are several insects to worry about. The microscopic eggs of the dreaded tobacco beetle, for instance, hatch at temperatures above 80 degrees.
You can use 65 humi. beads, it'll help a lot keeping the rh.


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## mash (Jul 24, 2007)

With an Aristocrat I don't think you'll have to worry about keeping the RH where you want it. You might find though that you have to refill the reservoir fairly often, you can add lots of water to those things. Just add more so you won't run out as quick.


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## TheEconomist (Mar 19, 2008)

Actually it does matter if it is too low. Most people have a misconception of what relative humidity is...

Relative humidity is not simply the amount of water in the air..

For example.. if your hygrometer reads 100% at 20 degrees celcius, there will be 15 grams of water per killogram of air in the air. If you are at 30 Celcius, 100% would be about 27 grams of water per killogram. 

Therefore if is 50 degrees, even if the relative humidity says it is at 65%, the air won't have as much water in it as it would if it said 65% at 70 degrees.

this would result in a dryer cigar...


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## Scimmia (Sep 22, 2006)

TheEconomist said:


> Actually it does matter if it is too low. Most people have a misconception of what relative humidity is...
> 
> Relative humidity is not simply the amount of water in the air..
> 
> ...


We really do need a "beating your head against a wall" smiley like I've seen on other forums.

TheEconomist, please do a search, as absolute humidity really has nothing to do with moisture content in your cigars.


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## TheEconomist (Mar 19, 2008)

I'm sorry? I was talking about relative humidity

relative humidity keeps cigars from drying out and from growing mold.. If you put a sponge in a refrigerator at 100% RH at 35degrees, it won't come out wet... If you put it into a oven at 300 degrees and at 100% RH, it will come out very wet...


Relative Humidity=The amount of water vapor present in the atmosphere expressed as a percentage of the maximum that could be present at the same temperature.

Absolute humidity=The mass of water vapor in a given volume of air. It represents the density of water vapor in the air.


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## St. Lou Stu (Oct 3, 2007)

Wiki anyone?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_humidity


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## Scimmia (Sep 22, 2006)

What you're talking about, keeping the same amount of water in the air, is maintaining a constant absolute humidity.

The part that's missing is that keeping a constant vapor pressure of water while dramically changing the temperature, and therefor changing the evaporation rate, will not yield the results that you're looking for.

As for your sponge comment, if you put a wet sponge in either with 100% RH, your net evaporation will be 0, or very near 0, so yes, it would come out wet in either case.

Edit, I'm sorry, you said per kg of air, so you were talking about specific humidity, not absolute humidity. Either way, it doesn't work.


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## TheEconomist (Mar 19, 2008)

what about a dry sponge?

bear with me and tell me if im still wrong..

I'm trying to think through this...

putting a dry object into a certain situation it would matter, but a damp one it wouldn't, am i correct? because if the air is at 100% humidity, that means it can't evaporate anymore. But could the sponge pick more moisture up? 

The one in the cooler would behave the same, but it most likely wouldn't beable to pick anymore up because of the absolute humidity not allowing it to do so..


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## Scimmia (Sep 22, 2006)

The sponge will reach Equilibrium Moisture Content (EMC) in either situation, but it won't really be wet (as in dripping) in either. It won't go past that stage until you start dropping the temp and net evaporation goes negative. Now, if you want to talk about how much water is EMC at each point, I think we need to bring up Vapor Pressure Deficit (VPD). I never said that EMC was directly related to RH, but it's a FAR closer relationship than Absolute or Specific Humidity.


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## TheEconomist (Mar 19, 2008)

see but now this is where it goes back to making no sense, hence my first explanation.

If emc of an object changes with both temperature and Relative humidity, that would show that they have a strong inverse relationship. If one goes up, the other should come down. (in order to keep the same EMC)

And i can totally see how EMC would be the most important thing in a cigar... right? how much moisture that tobacco should be holding...

haha, oh boy, i can't seem to logic my way into thinking that this is incorrect..
and I'll be in law school soon...

either i'm in trouble or we need a scientist


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## Scimmia (Sep 22, 2006)

Here, I did the search for ya: http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showthread.php?t=69488
Fun starts on page 2.


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## Scimmia (Sep 22, 2006)

If it still doesn't make sense, or you have an argument with any of it, please, let me know, I always love an intelligent discussion.


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## TheEconomist (Mar 19, 2008)

ok, i think im getting this..

if you put a cigar into a humi that is at 65% rh, and the cigar is dry, it will absorb moisture causing the rh to fall, because it took moisture out of the air. Conversely, if you put a wet one in, it will cause the rh to rise. 

Now if you raise the temperature once equilibrium has been restored, the air will evaporate more water because it can hold more water. So in order to keep its rh at 65, it would need to absorb more water.. which would come out of the cigar. But it won't because the EC of the cigar would rise as well.... see, this is where i get screwed up.. because it sounds like theoretically a vapor deficit would occur and take it out of the cigar... if the humi truly is air tight and locks in and keeps out moisture. but either way this would imply that if the temp rises, the rh would fall if you never opened the humi..

conversely if you lower the temp, you would think the rh would actually rise, because there would be so much moisture available for the air to suck up...as the EC of the cigar would fall, and there would be a "vapor surplus"(condensation) if the temp got low enough, causing the rh to sky rocket.


when in reality the opposite happens..

man, im not getting this.. let me think about it for a few hours...


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## Scimmia (Sep 22, 2006)

You're right in your thinking for a completely sealed box. That's why we use reserves of moisture in the form of PG solution or RHBeads, so that we can add or take away moisture in the air as needed. The key here is that as temperature falls, evaporation falls, so it takes less vapor pressure (absolute humidity) to maintain the same EMC in a cigar.


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## TheEconomist (Mar 19, 2008)

ok that makes sense, but now why does the rh generally rise as the temp goes up?

and fall when the temperature falls? it seems like if it has beads or whatever device you use that it would stay the same all the time.

this is unless it takes time for this whole process to happen..or the resevoir is not big enough (or since it is a two way thing small enough)

I get that point about specific or absolute humidity not mattering now. thank you.

now onto another point that this brings up..which is EMC. If a lower temperature causes the EMC of the cigar to fall, that means the cigar cannot remain as "moisturized". 
which either way,would say that if temp falls, equilibrium moisture falls. so either way, your cigar would dry out more. 

now this comes straight back around to the original thing as well...

crud...


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## TheEconomist (Mar 19, 2008)

It seems like this would basically tell us that at lower temperatures RH being too hight doesn't matter as much..because the EMC of the cigar would regulate it. 

Which i guess would reinforce the fact that a higher rh in the cold weather would be favorable...

now i guess this could all be considered wrong if the cigar itself is always at a moisture deficit, and we just don't allow it to ever reach its equilibrium.. 

so in order for what you are saying to work (in my mind at least), everything has to be at a deficit.. the air, the cigar, and the resevoir, causing them to pull at eachother equally. which in turn would be an environmental equilibrium.

but that doesn't really make sense. What is air's equilibrium? i guess it would be whatever 100% rh is? same with the others?


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## Scimmia (Sep 22, 2006)

In a perfectly sealed environment when temperature rises, your RH will fall and vice versa. We don't deal with perfect environments, though. As the temperature rises, evaporation will rise, so it's easier to maintain humidity, as what leaks out can easily be replaced. In a cooler environment, though, evaporation is very slow, so it takes a lot longer to replace any humidity lost. This is the issue that we run into with humidors, as we loose humidity not only from air leaks, but even through the wood.

EMC doesn't really fall as the temperature falls, it's related to both temperature *and* humidity. As long as you maintain a sufficient vapor pressure of water for your given temperature, your EMC would remain the same.


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## Scimmia (Sep 22, 2006)

We need to clear one thing up, EMC isn't a set value for anything. The cigar isn't regulating humidity or anything like that. It's the moisture content that will be in the cigar (or wood, or whatever) when it is equilbrium with it's environment. That is, when the evaporation of moisture leaving is equal to the condensation of moisture returning, the object is at EMC.


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## TheEconomist (Mar 19, 2008)

doesn't it thought? it acts just like a humidifier if it is wet enough. just as some people put a wet paper towel into a plastic bag to make a short term humidifier.

every object on earth regulates humidity. If you put a bunch of cigars that are wet into a humidor, the rh of the air will change.. (I just did it with a bunch of Perdomo Lot 23's that came very wet. Had to leave the humi cracked open for a day, as it pushed the rh beyond 77)

and EMC is a set value for a specific object at one specific RH and Temperature.
so at 50 degrees and 65%rh, a specific type of wood will have the same EMC. 
same with cigars that are made of the same leaves.

also, since EMC is related to both Temperature and Relative humidity, if the temp fell, EMC would fall.
Vapor pressure is directly related to temperature, and to temperature only. Therefore, a fall in temperature shows a fall in vapor pressure.

I found an EMC calculator online. here http://www.csgnetwork.com/emctablecalc.html.

at 70 degrees and 70% rh the emc would create an EMC of 13.1% of the average wood.
at 50 degrees and 70% rh, the emc would be 13.4%

now this shows that the wood would be drier at 70 degrees at 70% rh than it would at 50 degrees at 70% rh. (or less water within the wood)

hmm...this would mean that keeping cigars at the same rh, but at a lower temp would cause them to carry more water than if it was warm..

what a curveball.


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## TheEconomist (Mar 19, 2008)

but either way, it shows that the colder temperature leads to a more moist cigar..(which isn't what I expected..)

so I guess if the average cigar weighs between 5 and 17 grams, that would mean that at 70Degrees, the 17 gram cigar would contain

.65 grams of water (actually more than that, since this calculation is implying that water and tobacco weigh the same), and at 50 degrees, would contain .68 grams of water. (again, using the faulty assumption that water weighs the same as tobacco).


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

Scimmia, you may find this interesting...
Today I was conditioning some beads. They were warm, around 82F because the fans in the cooler generate heat over time. The beads also create heat from the friction of adsorbtion.
So imagine this...
I have beads at 82F, 65%. I wanted to cool them, so I immediately thought "toss them in the freezer for a few minutes.
When I pulled the beads out after forgetting them, the bag was frozen with condensed vapor on the inside of the bag. I checked the hygrometer and it was at somewhere around 65F and exactly at 61%.
It gave me a look at just how much water "4%" is. It's quite a lot and was very interesting.
Without thinking I thawed the bag, removed the beadsticks, dried the bag, and replaced the beads, bringing them up to room temp.
I expected the RH%age to rise back to near 65% via equilibrium but it never happened.
The beads stayed hardcore at 61%.

I thought all this was neat because I realized almost immediately that the 4% was on the inside of the bag and I was able to first hand see so many properties at play.
I also found a valuable tool for taking water out of beads that works far faster than heating. I also realize why it works better.
Cool stuff. Thought you might like hearing about it.
Keep fighting the good fight. :tu
Scott


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## Scimmia (Sep 22, 2006)

I know, insane isn't it? As I said, RH isn't linear with EMC, it's just the best we can measure. Read toward the end of the thread that I linked to, VPD seems to corolate to EMC, and Rob posted some graphs.


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

TheEconomist said:


> doesn't it thought? it acts just like a humidifier if it is wet enough. just as some people put a wet paper towel into a plastic bag to make a short term humidifier.
> 
> every object on earth regulates humidity. If you put a bunch of cigars that are wet into a humidor, the rh of the air will change.. (I just did it with a bunch of Perdomo Lot 23's that came very wet. Had to leave the humi cracked open for a day, as it pushed the rh beyond 77)
> 
> ...


It's not a curveball.
You're missing the point. EMC is not a cause, it's a result.
As Scimmia pointed out, it's a relationship between temperature and pressure and volume and the forces involved.
This might answer the question best...
You said "13.1%". Thirteen percent of what? What is the whole that the 13.1% is part of?


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## Scimmia (Sep 22, 2006)

shilala said:


> Scimmia, you may find this interesting...
> Today I was conditioning some beads. They were warm, around 82F because the fans in the cooler generate heat over time. The beads also create heat from the friction of adsorbtion.
> So imagine this...
> I have beads at 82F, 65%. I wanted to cool them, so I immediately thought "toss them in the freezer for a few minutes.
> ...


Hmm, now that is VERY interesting, I'd never thought about that. Very effective demonstration of how much water silica gel can hold, too, it took that much water to change their EMC by 4% RH. I'm going to have to think through this for a bit, there's a lot involved.

Freezing didn't crack the beads or anything, did it? I'd worry about the expansion as it crystallized.


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## Scimmia (Sep 22, 2006)

TheEconomist said:


> Vapor pressure is directly related to temperature, and to temperature only. Therefore, a fall in temperature shows a fall in vapor pressure.


You got this switched up, vapor pressure is the amount of water in the air, it isn't directly related to temperature. Temperature will govern what that amount can be, but within a range, not a specific value. A fall in temperature will usually show a fall in vapor pressure, but only if we're not talking about a closed system with a given amount of water vapor. In that case, you'd have a constant vapor pressure.


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## TheEconomist (Mar 19, 2008)

TheEconomist said:


> It seems like this would basically tell us that at lower temperatures RH being too hight doesn't matter as much..because the EMC of the cigar would regulate it.
> 
> Which i guess would reinforce the fact that a higher rh in the cold weather would be favorable...
> 
> ...





shilala said:


> It's not a curveball.
> You're missing the point. EMC is not a cause, it's a result.
> As Scimmia pointed out, it's a relationship between temperature and pressure and volume and the forces involved.
> This might answer the question best...
> You said "13.1%". Thirteen percent of what? What is the whole that the 13.1% is part of?


13.1% moisture content (of fiber saturation maximum) EMC is the measure of the equilibrium of the moisture content at a SPECIFIC temperature and RH. meaning at the specific temp and rh, it will hold so much moisture.

M = 1800/W [ KH/(1-KH) + (K1KH + 2K1K2K2H2) / (1 + K1KH + K1K2K2H2)]

Where:

M = moisture content (%)
T = temperature (oF)
H = relative humidity (%) W = 330 + 0.452T + 0.00415T2
K = 0.791 + 0.000463T - 0.000000844T2
K1 = 6.34 + 0.000775T - 0.0000935T2
K2 = 1.09 + 0.0284T - 0.0000904T2

therefore, a cigar in colder temperatures holds more moisture than one at warmer temperatures, if the RH stays the same.

That is because this is what EMC measures. (or moisture content measures. EMC just says that it will stay at that moisture content because evaporation will occur at the same rate as condensation)


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## TheEconomist (Mar 19, 2008)

and to clarify fiber saturation point is the same for a specific material

tobacco is 24-30% (depending on the type of leaf I'm assuming)


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## Scimmia (Sep 22, 2006)

Careful, though, as I don't believe this calculation hold true for all materials. The principle will be the same, but as far as coming up with specific moisture content values, wood is probably different from tobacco.


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## TheEconomist (Mar 19, 2008)

Scimmia said:


> You got this switched up, vapor pressure is the amount of water in the air, it isn't directly related to temperature. Temperature will govern what that amount can be, but within a range, not a specific value. A fall in temperature will usually show a fall in vapor pressure, but only if we're not talking about a closed system with a given amount of water vapor. In that case, you'd have a constant vapor pressure.


you are correct.. i guess i was talking about saturation of vapor pressure, where an increase in temperature leads to an increase in the saturation of vapor pressure. SAturation of vapor pressure is related to temp.


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## Scimmia (Sep 22, 2006)

I've got to say, I'm impressed, you got to this a LOT quicker than Rob and I did. It was a couple of days, IIRC, before I found that EMC calculator.


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## TheEconomist (Mar 19, 2008)

Scimmia said:


> Careful, though, as I don't believe this calculation hold true for all materials. The principle will be the same, but as far as coming up with specific moisture content values, wood is probably different from tobacco.


but either which way, it shows that materials do show a change in moisture content with the same RH at different temperatures. Wood shares the same fiber saturation rate as tobacco (30% used for the wood in the calculation, 24-30% for tobacco)

so you are correct that you can't necessarily take the values as exact, but at the same time an admission must be made that a colder temperature at the same rh does change the moisture content of the cigar. and the real results could infact be greater, which i would believe to be true based on a pure assumption, since cigars are less dense and absorb moisture/release moisture more quickly and easily.

Therefore, regardless of aging techniques or beetles, the temperature and rh should always stay as close to 70/70, 65/70, 60/70, 65/65, or whatever your preffered level is.

I guess if the original poster has had his cigars down there for a while, and still likes em, it isn't an issue.

but at the same time, you can't say that the temp has no effect when it comes to moisture content (speaking to everyone)
.


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## Scimmia (Sep 22, 2006)

TheEconomist said:


> but either which way, it shows that materials do show a change in moisture content with the same RH at different temperatures. Wood shares the same fiber saturation rate as tobacco (30% used for the wood in the calculation, 24-30% for tobacco)
> 
> so you are correct that you can't necessarily take the values as exact, but at the same time an admission must be made that a colder temperature at the same rh does change the moisture content of the cigar. and the real results could infact be greater, which i would believe to be true based on a pure assumption, since cigars are less dense and absorb moisture/release moisture more quickly and easily.
> 
> ...


True, but as you lower the temperature, it becomes harder to maintain your RH because of leakage, so people who store at lower temps usually end up with lower RH levels, too. It tends to even out to a degree.

People tend to get pissed at me when I'm too exact, so as this usually works out, I just let it go.


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

Scimmia said:


> Hmm, now that is VERY interesting, I'd never thought about that. Very effective demonstration of how much water silica gel can hold, it took that much water to change their EMC by 4% RH.
> 
> Freezing didn't crack the beads or anything, did it? I'd worry about the expansion as it crystallized.


They didn't freeze. They only came down to around 62-65F. I don't remember exactly, I wasn't paying that close attention.

The thing that most impressed me is what happened with opposite force.
When I lowered the vapor pressure in the bag, the beads then had the higher pressure and worked very efficiently to equalize. 
Far more efficiently than the opposite.
It takes forever to force water into the beads by increasing the vapor pressure of the air.
I never thought to even try to use cold as an advantage. My mind was always locked onto one facet, and that was using the vapor pressure of the air to regulate the water volume in the beads.
I really should have realized it.
There's a tipping point with beads. Somewhere along the way their adsorbtion potential is equal to the desorbtion potential.
When we use the beads in our humidors they release water a lot quicker than they adsorb. 
That "point of efficiency" is what I've been trying to exploit with the HCM beads. 
I've been trying to find the best media that has that "point of efficiency" in the range we need it to be for humidors, 60-70F/60-70%.
You'd think that'd be easy with charts and graphs and stats, but it's not.
No one, literally, has done any tests looking for that "point", or I cannot find them.
I needed that crossover point so I could evaluate which media works best at our range.
The results were not at all what I thought.
I imagined comparing all medias on a the same scale. It didn't work out that way. The HCM (molecular) beads were far better at adsorbtion and desorbtion in our range than were HCS (silica) beads.
As it turns out, the bead's covalency or affinity was the driving factor.
HCM beads have a far greater surface area per volume than any other media I could find. Because of that, their affinity for adsorbtion or desorbtion was greater on both counts at any level.
I refused to believe that because I was stuck on "there has to be a common point where the affinities are equal, and I should be able to compare those points across products".
Wasn't true.
Those results also told me some other things. There are specific instances where one bead's properties/propensities warrant it's use over others, depending on our ambients.
The tests also showed that "one single product" may not be the best choice. Such as a combination of HCM beads and Kitty Litter would be the best option in the Arctic while HCM beads alone would be the best solution on the equator.
HCM beads and a Hydra turned out to be the single best solution for anytime, anywhere.
I'm rambling. 
Anyways, my point was to show that to you. Each media has it's own specific energy potential, and it plays a huge part in their effectiveness in different atmospheres.
The difference isn't just about speed, it's also about volume potential.
That's where this ECM talk comes into play. That's how I ended up getting sucked in. 
I just wanted to point out that ECM percentage is a percentage based on the media's capacity potential.
Kinda like wood.
It'll hold 30% of it's weight in water at saturation, and the 13.4% we were looking at is 13.4% of that 30%.
Makes a big difference to see it in that light.
kthnxbai. :tu


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## TheEconomist (Mar 19, 2008)

shilala said:


> It'll hold 30% of it's weight in water at saturation, and the 13.4% we were looking at is 13.4% of that 30%.
> Makes a big difference to see it in that light.
> kthnxbai. :tu


true, and thats what i used when figuring out the weight example.


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## Scimmia (Sep 22, 2006)

shilala said:


> They didn't freeze. They only came down to around 62-65F. I don't remember exactly, I wasn't paying that close attention.


That makes more sense, I was misreading your post.

Unfortunately, it's time to finish up and head home, I'll try to wrap my head around the rest of it later tonight.

Thanks
Doug


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

TheEconomist said:


> 13.1% moisture content (of fiber saturation maximum) EMC is the measure of the equilibrium of the moisture content at a SPECIFIC temperature and RH. meaning at the specific temp and rh, it will hold so much moisture.
> 
> M = 1800/W [ KH/(1-KH) + (K1KH + 2K1K2K2H2) / (1 + K1KH + K1K2K2H2)]
> 
> ...


Here's one more thing to factor in...
Temperature/pressure relationships are NOT a calculation, and do not have a static mathematical relationship.
What all those numbers are trying to do is _best simulate_ the actual.
To me, 13.1% and 13.4% are just the same as equal based on the fact that temp/pressure relationships are not a direct mathematical relationship.
That's probably one of those things that you can only pick up along the way by watching all your math getting screwed up for lots of years.
What you uncovered is that anomally.
Go a little further in both directions with the EMC calculator and see what happens.
I bet things you'll see a definate trend with minor discrepancies, but all in all it'll be equal across the board.


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## TheEconomist (Mar 19, 2008)

shilala said:


> Here's one more thing to factor in...
> Temperature/pressure relationships are NOT a calculation, and do not have a static mathematical relationship.
> What all those numbers are trying to do is _best simulate_ the actual.
> To me, 13.1% and 13.4% are just the same as equal based on the fact that temp/pressure relationships are not a direct mathematical relationship.
> ...


unfortunately it shows a very strong relationship..

at 70%,

at 30 degrees f the Moisture content is 13.5. at 130degrees it is at 11.3. 
not once is there a reversal of trend. in fact, it shows properties of increasing marginal cost (in econ terms  ) as the temp gets higher.

http://www.csgnetwork.com/emctablecalc.html

here is the chart.

also, EMC is not solely a pressure/temp relationship.. it is a rh (consisting of pressure variables) and temp relationship.

also, in a controlled, sealed environment, (humidor), the pressure, temp, and humidity should not change. (hence, no dynamic action)

also, the fact that EMC is short for Equilibrium moisture content, it suggests that it is not a dynamic measurement. Equilibrium suggests that it is stable, and not changing, because it is at rest.

in a dynamic model, EMC would rather show the breathability equilibrium, shown by subjecting the object to changing temps and rh's.

a static model would show what the moisture content would be given its physical properties..(i.e. cell structure, fiber type, whatever).

Reminds me of static vs. dynamic markets in economics. static is what most people learn, as it is the basic supply matches demand equilibrium theory.

dynamic is more complex, where a change of price in one market leads to the change in another which in turn again changes the original...

just an example..


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## TheEconomist (Mar 19, 2008)

you are correct about it being dynamic when talking about the weather, as pressure forces weather pattern movement causing changes in temps which again changes pressure which again moves the weather "Structure" or whatever you would call a specific set of weather patterns.


in a temp and humidity controlled environment, this does not exist. (actually, it exists on such a small level that it is irrelevant. Kinda like talking about the gravitational forces that a parked car creates. yes it creates them, but not enough to make a measureable impact)

(this also is only true if you have good enough equipment to keep your humidor at a rock solid level.)


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## Scimmia (Sep 22, 2006)

TheEconomist, if you want to play around with that calc some more, compare it to this graph:


Shilala, I think I understand what you're saying about the beads having a tipping point. I'd never considered that at all. I'm not sure how it relates to what you were seeing with the freezer, though. As you lowered the temp of the air, moisture condensed, creating a lower vapor pressure. Since the beads were still far warmer, they began releaseing humidity, which then also condensed. You were freeze drying your beads!


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

Scimmia said:


> Shilala, I think I understand what you're saying about the beads having a tipping point. I'd never considered that at all. I'm not sure how it relates to what you were seeing with the freezer, though. As you lowered the temp of the air, moisture condensed, creating a lower vapor pressure. Since the beads were still far warmer, they began releaseing humidity, which then also condensed. You were freeze drying your beads!


The tipping point is apart from the freezer deal. I was just rambling.

The cool part about the freezer is that common sense would say "heat the beads" to remove water.
That works, heat them to about 120F in a convection oven and crack the door and they'll dry out nicely.
But for making minor adjustments, the freezer could be a useful tool.
If I use a gallon bag and blow it full of air, just the bag will freeze and all the vapor will condense on it and freeze, making it simple to manage and continually lower the vapor pressure in the bag.
It definately removes water faster than the oven and there's far more opportunity for control.

It's just neat, that's all.


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## Scimmia (Sep 22, 2006)

Neat indeed, no doubt!


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

TheEconomist said:


> unfortunately it shows a very strong relationship..
> 
> at 70%,
> 
> ...


I may be getting foggy about what we're trying to figure out.
Maybe if I set up a test with words...
Two groups:
Group A 
100 pounds of cigars in a cooler at 50 degrees and 70% humidity.
The EMC is 16.1%

Group B
100 pounds of cigars in a cooler at 80 degrees and 70% humidity.
12.9% EMC

What I can see there is that the cigars are giving off water to keep the air around them at 70%. Makes sense.

We'll call the fiber saturation point 30%.
So of the 30 pounds possible, 16.1 % (50F/70%) is 4.83 pounds of water in the 100 pound pile of cigars.
12.9% is 3.87 pounds of water in the cigars. (80F/70%)
So that's a difference of roughly 1 pound. About 20 % of the cigar's water weight, or 1% of their total weight.

These numbers support what you're saying.
There's a difference here.
The wood calculator you mentioned. The wood is in the desert. Whether it's in the desert or on a Pacific Island, the airspace around them is infinite.

In our humidors the space is finite.
I only need enough water from the cigars to recondition the finite airspace. That amount of water is a miniscule percentage of the cigar's water volume.
If it's 80 degrees and 70% humidity in my cooler and then it turns to 50 degrees and 70% humidity, the difference in volume of water has to go somewhere. Odds are it's going to gather on the walls. Then my fan will evaporate it as the beads take it up. Or the cigars.

The cigars still have hygroscopic properties and still want to pull water.
I think the water is going to land in the cigars and beads.
But if your calculator holds true in a finite airspace, where's the water go?

This whole discussion could be solved with a very simple test.
I don't have a gram scale or I'd already have started it.
Something has to become more laden when the temperature goes down, the cigars and/or beads.
The water has to go somewhere.

So I guess cigars will be wetter when they're colder if the RH%age stays the same?
Is that what we were trying to figure out?
I can buy that.
I don't think the %age of water weight difference will be near as close to that in the open atmosphere though (a la the EMC Calculator), just because of different volumes of air.


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## Scimmia (Sep 22, 2006)

I DO have a gram scale, but I don't see how it will be any different in a closed space as it is in open atmosphere. I do see your point that the cigars will give off or absorb moisture, but that effect will be negated by the presence of some kind of humidity regulation.

I may see if I can set something up, but I'm going to be on the road for a month or so starting next week, so I can't do this right away.


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## TheEconomist (Mar 19, 2008)

I see what you are saying..

(I believe scimmia is correct in that the humidity regulation device would solve this)

But if the change is so large that the regulation device would be overutilized, this is where the issue would fall.

and this leads to what i had said about the atmospheric equilibrium that could be taking place. where everything is at a moisture or vapor deficit, everything pulling at eachother. the introduction of more water would cause everything to soak up more, the taking away of water would cause everything to lose it.

I think what it comes down to is the saturation elasticity of the air vs. the cigar vs. the beads. (i may be using the wrong term, but am talking about the % change in air saturation vs. the % change in cigar saturation vs. the % change in bead saturation) 

if the temp went down from 80 to 50, holding the rh constant, it would cause the amount of water in the air to drop, (otherwise known as the absolute humidity or specific humidity or whatever term is correct). Like you said, where does this excess water go? 

if the amount of water that is dropped out of the air exceeds the amount the beads can carry, then the cigar would absorb it. (hence, the results of the EMC)

Why? because the drop of temperature effects the transfer of water more in air than it does in the beads and the cigar. so the "pull" of water into the beads would be the strongest, the cigar the 2nd strongest, and the air the least strong. 

and like you said, in an environment where there is close to "finite air", a much more noticeable effect would take place. (hence why a cold front is often times associated with rain? maybe? the humidity becomes too much for the air to hold, so it drops it out of the air and is absorbed by the ground and plants?) 

same would happen with humidor, but your cigar and beads or humidifier would suck up most of it, leaving only a little change in the cigar. and granted the change would not be large enough to create massive condensation or precipitation like rain

just a theory, no proof....hah


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## Scimmia (Sep 22, 2006)

You know the funniest thing? The OP hasn't logged on since last night, he's going to come back and see his thread went from 1 page to 4 in one day, with a much more complex answer than he ever thought possible!


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## TheEconomist (Mar 19, 2008)

and if what i just said is true, then that shows that the measurement of the rh of air would not be accurate in determining the saturation of cigars at different temperatures, as they each absorb and give off water at different rates. Indicating that the optimal level of rh is only optimal at one temperature.

to clarify(hypothetically and with unrealistic numbers):

Total amount of water in the sealed humidor, including water in the cigar, water in the beads, and water in the air= 100 units of water. RH is constant at 70%

at 80 degrees, equilibrium is: 

air holds 33.3 units, 
cigar holds 33.3 units, 
and beads hold 33.3 units

drop that to 50 degrees:

the air now holds 10 units, 
the beads now hold 52 units, 
and the cigar now holds 38 units.

the reaction to a change in temp is different depending on the medium.


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## Scimmia (Sep 22, 2006)

If we're just talking straight beads like shilala deals with, they'd all still be at 33.3 units, the RH would be higher, and the EMC of both the beads and the cigar would go up. That's because straight beads will buffer humidity, they will not regulate it. If we're talking about the treated RHBeads from Heartfelt/Cigarmony, they have chemicals which do regulate the humidity, so RH would be the same (less water in the air, though) and the EMC of the cigar will follow the charts posted earlier. The chemicals in the beads would regulate how much is contained in them.

Just to throw another wrench into the works.


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## TheEconomist (Mar 19, 2008)

Scimmia said:


> If we're just talking straight beads like shilala deals with, they'd all still be at 33.3 units, the RH would be higher, and the EMC of both the beads and the cigar would go up. That's because straight beads will buffer humidity, they will not regulate it. If we're talking about the treated RHBeads from Heartfelt/Cigarmony, they have chemicals which do regulate the humidity, so RH would be the same (less water in the air, though) and the EMC of the cigar will follow the charts posted earlier. The chemicals in the beads would regulate how much is contained in them.
> 
> Just to throw another wrench into the works.


we should open our own plumbing service with how many wrenches have been fed to this monster :r


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

You guys are whacked.
That's all I got to say.


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## Martix_agent (Jan 27, 2008)

so the basic idea of all this mathimatical talk is that thigns hold different percentages of moisture at different temperatrures? so a 50% RH at 70 degree is actually more than a 50% RH at 90 degrees?


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