# Extremely boring post regarding the results of my recent humidity tests.



## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

I've been messing around with RH beads and other humidifying media for 
the last month or two and came up with this RH beadstick idea among others...
http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showthread.php?t=138682
I struggled with whether or not I'd mess around with them so far as to 
offer them to the public, I was pretty content with just dropping them 
in bombs and so forth.
Dball mentioned that they were ideal for what he does in a lot of 
different ways, and that they'd be ideal in his traveling humi.

I can make up the beadsticks in any vitola (or at least get them 
close), but it's a lot of tedious handwork and my arthritis makes it a 
chore. It makes things slow, too.

Anyways...
I ran tests on a lot of different medias with a lot of different 
additives.
The medias I use were Polyacrylamide (the gel like in drymistats) in two different sizes, four 
different grades of RH beads, two different silica gel "chip shaped" 
dessicants, and a type of bead called Molecular Beads.
I steeped the different medias in a bunch of different solutions.
The solutions I chose were off the shelf items that were food grade and 
safe for use around my cigars. I didn't want anything near my cigars 
that I wouldn't put in my mouth.
I used food grade propylene glycol,Magnesium chloride (salt), Sodium 
Nitrate (food preservative, it's in your beef jerky), Potassium 
Chloride (salt substitute for folks who can't use salt), and Sodium 
Chloride (table salt)

If you count up those items, there are 14 items and a huge number of 
combinations.

So I took to making up test subjects by combining salts and PG with all 
the different test medias. I also used multiple combinations of salts 
and pg to create different RH values. 
What I found was that I could tweak any of the medias to hold any RH 
value I wanted anywhere from 32% all the way up to 86%.

All I really wanted to know is how well any combination would work to 
control humidity in my humidor, and how they would work in my 
incubators, and other applications.
The reason I chose to use all food grade and the very purest of medias 
is that for a lot of years I've provided incubators and humidity 
control systems to labs, colleges, hatcheries, The UN's Food and 
Agriculture Organization, and to poultry enthusiasts worldwide.
I've invented a couple temperature control systems that are used all 
over the world in a number of different applications.

So I knew if I was to create something that was worthwhile, it'd have 
to work across the board. I spent a lot of time speaking to overseas 
manufacturers and the few major distributors of these products in the 
States.
What I found out, across the board, is that none of them had done the 
tests that I proposed. Dessicants (all the RH beads are exactly that) 
are generally used for drawing moisture out of enclosed areas. They 
are used widely in the shipping industry and in the electronics 
industry. You know those little packets you find in your beef jerky 
bags? I always thought they were Dessicant Packets. They're not. 
They're oxygen scavengers. They suck oxygen out of the bag to keep the 
jerky fresh.

Back on track...
Some tests were an absolute failure and some worked extremely well.
Rather than go into a metric ton of charts and test data, I worked out 
something of a rating system.
I wanted to know how quickly the test subjects would pull humidity out 
of the air, and how well they would let humidity back into the air.
It was pretty easy, actually.
All I needed was a see-through box with a divider and a couple 
hygrometers. All the tests were done at one temperature, 70F.
Equal amounts of media by weight were used, arranged to expose an equal surface area by square inch. Some products had a distinct advantage because their shape created a much larger surface area per area. Such as beads are round, gel is chunky, while solutions were flat and silica gel chips were flat sided. This factored in heavily, making different shapes a better choice for our application in humidors, as well as in incubators.
I was concerned whether temperature would make a great difference, so I 
did a couple quick mockups at 60F and 80F. The difference in reactivity 
was negligable, so I was content to leave that alone.
Another thing I found out that went right across the board was that any 
treatments I used with the media lessened their reactivity. If I added 
salt to beads, they reacted slower. If I added PG to beads (I could 
only do this with one grade of beads) it reacted slower.
So I threw out the idea of adding anything to beads.
I knew I could use these solutions to my advantage later, but I won't 
get into that yet.

What I wanted to do was to come up with a simple number that would give 
an easy means to gauge "how much of what" should I use to achieve the 
same results? I scored the least responsive product at 1.0 and the most responsive product at 10.0. 
It would also allow me a means to calculate expense quickly and easily.

Here follows the numbers I came up with...
Grade 1 chips 1.0
Grade 2 Chips 1.3
Size 1 Poly Gel 4.0
Size 2 Poly Gel 3.6
Grade 1 Beads 2.0
Grade 2 Beads 5.0
Grade 3 Beads 6.1
Grade 4 Beads 6.6
Grade 1 MBeads 10.0

I also did quickie tests on four different popular bead products and one gel product that are used in conservatory applications (museums) and in our humidors.
I found only one commonly used product scored very low, at 3.4.
Three scored in the 6.0 to 6.5 range.
There was one product that stood out at 7.4.
Regardless of the score, all the consumer bead products I tested were an excellent value as indicated by cost per product efficiency ratio excepting the one gel product. It would be of equal value if it was priced at 25% to 40% of it's current cost. Arranging the gel differently to provide more surface area would increase it's value.

I did find out one thing that's been debated heavily.
I tested the Kitty Litter that folks have gone on about.
It takes a little over 3 times the amount of Kitty Litter to do the job of one volume of any of the bead products we currently use.
One good thing about kitty litter is that it doesn't explode on contact with water. There's a reason why that is, but I'm not going into it because it's windy and very technical and boring. )The Molecular beads also do not explode when water hits them.
Suffice to say that if you have three pounds of litter in your humi covering 3 square feet of floor space, it will do the job of one pound of the RH beads covering one one square foot of floor space.
I don't have room in my humi or wine coolers for all those beads. I need to put cigars in there.
I've heard a lot of argument about the "quality" of kitty litter beads possibly being lower than that of the other RH beads. I spoke to the manufacturer (who coincidentally makes all the grades I used) and they are manufactured to identical specifications.

Another thing I found...
I found exactly ONE manufacturer of silica based beads in the world.
That was after chasing down each product through MSDS sheets and product ingredients. If there are any others I'd like to know about them. I also found only one manufacturer of the MRHbeads. They offer two different labratory grades of those beads, I choose the product with the smallest pores.

One last thing I found...
Once RHbeads have been in direct contact with water, explode and turn to powder, it's ability to perform in these tests decreased dramatically. It's because as a powder it's lost a great proportion of it's effective surface area. Although it still worked as intended, it lost a great deal of it's abilty to react quickly to humidity changes in it's environment, and lost a large amount of it's ability to hold water that can be made available to it's surrounding atmosphere, meaning it would not last nearly as long without needing to be reconditioned. As a result of these circumstances, powdered beads faired very poorly so I threw those results out of my test data.
Those tests results do say one thing to me. NEVER pour water directly on beads. It severely diminishes their capabilities. Use a conditioning bag or simply set a tray of water near the beads and be patient. It will prolong the life of your beads dramatically and increase their value exponentially.

In summary...
I have concepted about a dozen different products based on my tests.
I'm most excited about offering them in the lab and hatchery industries because I'm at home there and have been for almost 15 years.
The outlet is already there and I can help a lot of folks in a lot of different applications.
The cigar keeping addiction is new to me and it'll take awhile for me to apply what I've learned to keeping humidity in my humi and my wine coolers. I've guinea pigged my two wine coolers from the start and have tried a number of different things in my humi, all with varying results.
I've already developed a system of sorts that employs the RHbeads in stretch polyester fabric that works real well. I've created conditioning bags using polygel and a 51/49 PG solution for conditioning beadsticks at 70%. That combination yields a rock solid 69% RH in my far less than stellar leaky humidor.

In the next few days I will finish creating a 65% RH system.
I've narrowed down what I'm going to use, as well. I'll be using salts, PG Solution, polygel, distilled water, RHbeads and MHbeads. All the products are Food Grade or intrinsically safe to be used around my cigars. I'm incredibly anal about those sorts of things.

My main problem is that I only have so much time to devote to this as I'm busy working on lab and hatchery systems right now. It's the height of hatching season and soon the colleges and labs will be heavily involved in West Nile Virus testing, meaning just about every incubator in the United States will be fired up and struggling with humidity control.
I feel it's important to devote my efforts to those areas first, although I admit I'm having a lot more fun playing with my cigars.  I can prepare humidor applications far more quickly because they are far less technically demanding.
In the coming weeks, I'll be able to offer some of the RHbeadsticks and MHbeadsticks, along with their corresponding conditioning bags. 
I've already sent some out to some of the Gorillas here and I have some more prototypes made that I'll be sending out shortly.
I should be able to offer all the different systems at a very competitive prices at first, only getting better later once I can scope the volume. I may just bag the whole thing, because I don't know that I have the time to devote to all of this. I'm pretty much on the fence right now.
I do have the support of the leading dessicant distributor in the States, and they are excited about seeing my results, and are excited to see the tools I invent for conditioning bead products.
So I'm just going to take it a day at a time and see what happens.
I sure hope I didn't bore you all to tears!!!
Scott


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## slimm (Feb 24, 2008)

Thank you for the time you have spent on this project. I look forward to the finished product.

Ryan


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## aldukes (Aug 23, 2007)

shilala said:


> I've been messing around with RH beads and other humidifying media for
> the last month or two and came up with this RH beadstick idea among others...
> http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showthread.php?t=138682
> I struggled with whether or not I'd mess around with them so far as to
> ...


i just wanted to be the first person to reply to the longest post ever. :r

but seriously- great post (yes I read the whole thing)


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## MithShrike (Jan 29, 2007)

Scooter you know me, I love this boring shit. Thanks for the update mang.


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

MithShrike said:


> Scooter you know me, I love this boring shit. Thanks for the update mang.


You're one of the guinea pigs. Use that stuff and see what it does.
The PGgel bag is for conditioning the sticks I sent.
The sticks are already conditioned at 70%.
The PGgel bag is excellent for seasoning anything.
Give the stuff a whirl and see what you come up with. Let us know.
I want to hear good or bad. If it sucks, I'd love to hear "Hey, it sucks, and this is why".
I can only think up so many situational problems. The only way to fine tune an invention is to put it to real world use.
You're "real world use."


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## tnip23 (Oct 31, 2006)

How do your beads compare to the Heartfelt rh beads? they come in cigar size tubes as well.


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## Da Klugs (Jan 8, 2005)

Very interesting. Looking forward to hearing more. Pictures would be greatly appreciated.

Kitty litter vindicated? Sam will be so proud. (He has 10 lbs of the stuff in his cab at home)


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## fizguy (Jul 26, 2006)

shilala said:


> I've created conditioning bags using polygel and a 51/49 PG solution for conditioning beadsticks at 70%. That combination yields a rock solid 69% RH in my far less than stellar leaky humidor.


I remember discussing this in a different thread and I am still trying to understand. How can the silica beads be "conditioned?" I don't mean by what process can they be conditioned, I mean what is it about the process that causes them to be able to maintain the air above them at a particular humidity? Do they undergo some sort of physical change when placed in an environment which is contains air at a constant RH?

The more I think about these issues the more I realize I don't know! As a physics teacher I always try to understand things on a fundamental level and I think in this case I am lacking that perspective.


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

tnip23 said:


> How do your beads compare to the Heartfelt rh beads? they come in cigar size tubes as well.


I won't be making any comparisons to any brands at all. It's unfair to do so, and it's unethical. At a later date I'll do the math on the products I've prepared and folks can make their own comparisons based on effectiveness per volume.
What I can say is that I did not use David's bead preparation in my tests.
I did use some other well known brands and as I mentioned in my thread, they were all an exceptional value so far as "bang for the buck" goes, saving the one gel product that faired poorly. Even that product has the potential to fair far better in my tests.
I have no reason to believe that Heartfelt beads are anything less than an exceptional value, and I've heard nothing but rave reviews of his beads.
Add to that his stellar service and reputation, and I feel that you cannot go wrong with any of his products, ever.
I've ordered a few thing from David myself and I can say without any reserve whatsoever that I am completely pleased with the high quality of him as a person and the high quality of his products.


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## tzaddi (Feb 24, 2007)

Thanks for sharing your time and effort. It is good to hear from another source regarding the issue of directly applying water to certain types of commercial beads and the subsequent "snow" that results effectively rendering a smaller surface area thus reducing the efficiency. As you stated, patience is needed when re-hydrating certain silica gel beads. Along with the indirect application of water.

I also appreciate another perspective regarding the use of Kitty Liter silica bead-pearls. My testing concurs with your observations regarding the need for larger quantities for adequate effectiveness. Your sum of multiplying the resulting amount of the following formula by a factor of 3 is an invaluable offering.



> Calculating the cubic area of your humi:
> Measure the depth, width and height of you humi (example is 24" depth, 36" wide and 48" height)
> Multiply the three; 24x36x48=41472 cubic inches
> Divide 41472 by 1728 (number of cubic inches in a cubic foot) 41472/1728= 24 cubic feet
> ...


As stated, where humi space is at a premium KL pearls may not be the best solution, but at under $2 a pound the economics are viable even when this $2 amount is properly multiplied by 3= $6.

Perhaps sometime we can have an exchange of ideas regarding the most effective way to condition the RH set point for KL beads. My methods are working with little effort but much time. 

RG worthy indeed. :tu


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## MithShrike (Jan 29, 2007)

shilala said:


> You're one of the guinea pigs. Use that stuff and see what it does.
> The PGgel bag is for conditioning the sticks I sent.
> The sticks are already conditioned at 70%.
> The PGgel bag is excellent for seasoning anything.
> ...


Yeh I already got RH beads in my humi and cooler. I stuck a few of those sticks in my roommate's humi because he's always having trouble with his leaky POS.


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

fizguy said:


> I remember discussing this in a different thread and I am still trying to understand. How can the silica beads be "conditioned?" I don't mean by what process can they be conditioned, I mean what is it about the process that causes them to be able to maintain the air above them at a particular humidity? Do they undergo some sort of physical change when placed in an environment which is contains air at a constant RH?
> 
> The more I think about these issues the more I realize I don't know! As a physics teacher I always try to understand things on a fundamental level and I think in this case I am lacking that perspective.


Let me see if I can explain the physical principle.
It'd be easier to use pictures, but I'll try to make this as simple as possible.

Imagine a big sealed box with air in it.
Along with the air, there is water vapor. Let's say that air is at 70% for sake of argument.
If I were to condense all the water vapor in that air into water, there would be a very small volume of water, right?

What a dessicant wants to do is to suck water vapor out of the air in that box and store it inside itself.
Different dessicants have a lesser or greater affinity for absorbtion based on their physical structure. (That's the principle I was testing for, along with "how much water can the beads, etc hold".)
That structure consists of tiny pores and tunnels throughout itself.
Some beads have bigger pores and have a lesser affinity for collecting water vapor, and smaller pores have a greater affinity just because there are far more pores available to suck water out of the air.

Now we have to consider "How much water is already in the beads?"
If my beads have zero water in them, they will suck up water as quickly as they possibly can. Dessicants are rated on that quality, plus how much water they can ultimately hold.

Now here's where your answer comes from...
Once beads have sucked all the water out of the air, they now have water in them. At the beginning they had no water whatsoever.
So now, at this point, the beads no longer can absorb water at their initial rate. They have lost some of their capacity for holding water because now they have water in them.
If I test the bead's RH around them, I may find it's raised to 2%.
Now if I introduce another volume of water vapor laced air inside that box we started with, the beads will suck all that water up, and now maybe they are at 3%.

This whole act that is going on is called "Equilibrium".
The beads want their stored water to be in equilibrium with the surrounding air.
This is an oversimplification, but a real easy explanation...
If the beads have absorbed 70% of the water that they are capable of holding, they will want the air around them to be holding 70% of the air that it can hold.
Think of equilibrium as harmony. The beads want all things to be equal.

The reason why beads can keep a closed area at a specific RH is a simple matter of volume.
If all the water volume in the box gets shrunk into water, it's only a very tiny amount of water. Maybe the size of a pin prick.
Now we have to think in ratios, because that's what effects equilibrium.
For sake of simplicity, I'll make up numbers here...
If we start at 70%RH inside the box and 1 pound of beads can hold 100 ounces of water, and there is 1 ounce of of water vapor in the air in the box, the beads can soak all that water up that was in the air, and it will only affect the water volume inside the beads by a very, very small amount. Now the beads would be 71% beads because that's where the ratio of equilibrium stands.

In actuality there is far less water in the air in the box. Therefore the beads can suck a heck of a lot of water out of air before their effectiveness diminishes in our application.

To condition beads at 70%RH, all I have to do is place them in an area that supplies a constant humidity of 70%. Eventually they will suck up all the water they need to reach equilibrium.

Now if i put those beads in a sealed bag and transfer them to another box that is say, 65%, they will give off their water to the air in order to find their happy equilibrium again.
If the area is small, they'll get it done quickly. If the area is too large, they may never get it done. I'm not going to change the RH of the Astrodome with a pound of beads, ya know?

That's why guys with calculators crunch numbers and ask "How big is the space you wish to condition?" They then use a formula that is based on net aggregates and takes into consideration all the real world situations.
That's why my rule of thumb is "Calculate how much you need, then order twice as much."
That way you can be reasonably assured that your sucky leaky humi will stay where you want it.
If you are using a super airtight cooler, wine cooler, or some other very tight storage box, you no longer need to double the amount of beads you buy.

Fizguy, if you have any more questions at all on how dessicants work, I'll be more than happy to help.


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

Here's the big kicker, tzaddi.
Pound for pound, the kitty litter is a third as effective _per surface area_.
So if I have a pound of a higher quality RHbeads in a 1 foot square bucket and three pounds of kitty litter beads in another 1 square foot bucket, I will still only get 1/3 the efficacy of any other RHbeads.
I would have to put those beads in 3 one foot square buckets at one pound each to reach the efficiency of one pound of RHbeads in one square foot bucket.
If my humi requires 3 pounds of RH beads over 3 square feet, I'd need 9 square feet for 9 pounds of litter for the same efficiency.
That is a megahuge drawback and creates an almost unworkable situation, especially in small incubators, oops, I meant humidors. You can see where my head is. 
I have two bags of kitty litter in one of my wine coolers right now.
They take up an entire shelf and weigh 84.3 ounces.
They don't work nearly as well as one pound of MHbeads that take up the space of 16 Torpedos.
That is a huge difference.
What worries me is folks will not make the surface area connection and continue speading disinformation.
The stuff works, but it's not much of a value, all things considered, and it will take up an amazing amount of humi space to get the job done properly.
So the bottom line is yes, it works. Yes, it's safe and sanitary and of good quality, but it takes up too much space and doesn't work well.
Believe you me, I hoped for it to fair far better cause I don't want to pay 30 bucks a pound for beads. 



tzaddi said:


> Thanks for sharing your time and effort. It is good to hear from another source regarding the issue of directly applying water to certain types of commercial beads and the subsequent "snow" that results effectively rendering a smaller surface area thus reducing the efficiency. As you stated, patience is needed when re-hydrating certain silica gel beads. Along with the indirect application of water.
> 
> I also appreciate another perspective regarding the use of Kitty Liter silica bead-pearls. My testing concurs with your observations regarding the need for larger quantities for adequate effectiveness. Your sum of multiplying the resulting amount of the following formula by a factor of 3 is an invaluable offering.
> 
> ...


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## kvm (Sep 7, 2005)

Looking forward to reading some updates. Very interesting.


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## tchariya (Feb 26, 2007)

you shipped me one of your conditioning tubes of sausage. So...panty hose as an edible product? 

Just teasing. How do I recharge the gel? Is it purely distilled water?

I will now stop spraying my beads with distilled water to 'recharge' them but instead provide a medium (ie panty hose full of gel) in the same environment to transfer/charge the beads. Is my thinking right?

If so...I need to obtain more of the sausage-y panty hose gel!


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## tchariya (Feb 26, 2007)

You talk a lot about how your test removes water out of the closed environment. Have you done and testing of the reverse? I'm curious which type of product is good/great at releasing humidity and which is good/great at removing humidity. Is there a product that is good at both?

I understand there is a level of effectiveness over time as well as how effective a product can be at supplying humidity over a certain period...ie bring it from 50RH to 65RH....so on and so forth.

Your work is awesome. I don't know if I would have the patience to do your testing. Man..can you imagine this being a science fair project for some kid in school?


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

kvm said:


> Looking forward to reading some updates. Very interesting.


Be forewarned, this stuff is very wordy.
It ain't very sexy, either. 
I have found that the pricepoints of the RHbeads and MHbeads should be very competitive. The kicker is that they will require a little bit of user interacting. It's not a "throw and go" solution.
The tradeoff for a little eductaion and a little time is a much longer lasting product and a greater understanding of how to care for our precious cigars. 
I understand that not everyone has time for diddling around, so I'm working to streamline the whole process to make it as painless as possible.
Here's what it looks like...

Directions
1.) Put RHbeadsticks in Humi.
2.) Do nothing for a week.
3.) Check RH%
4.) If it's off, high or low, put conditioning bag in humi for a week.
5.) Do nothing for a week.
6.) Remove conditioning bag.
7.) In 24 hours check RH%.
8.) If it's within 1 or 2%, leave it alone. If not, put bag back in. If it's good, you're done.
9.) After a week, remove bag.
10.) In 24 hours, check RH%.
11.) Repeat bag in and out till you're where you want to be.

Granted, all this requires a good calibrated hygrometer that I've salt tested myself. There's no sense in even using any humidifying anything if I don't have a decent hygrometer.
I use three hygrometers that I bought from David at Heartfelt.
They kick ass.


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## fizguy (Jul 26, 2006)

shilala said:


> This is an oversimplification, but a real easy explanation...
> If the beads have absorbed 70% of the water that they are capable of holding, they will want the air around them to be holding 70% of the air that it can hold.
> Think of equilibrium as harmony. The beads want all things to be equal.


This is the part I don't understand. I understand the concept of equilibrium but I am not convinced of the rest. I will do some more reading. Thanks for the reply though! Any articles you can refer me to will be appreciated.


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

Yup. The pantyhose are edible. I've chewed through a few pair in my time and I've never suffered any ill effects whatsoever.
Just make sure you don't swallow the whole deal at once. That might strangulate your guts.
That sausage I sent you is simply polygel and distilled water.
There is no control medium in it at all.
It will work just like setting a pan of distilled water in your humi.
If left in too long it will make your environment go to 100%, so you want to take it in and out of your humi, testing the rh as you go.
You can recharge the gel by putting it in distilled water and letting it sit overnight. When you pull it out let it sit in a colander to drain off for a couple hours.


tchariya said:


> you shipped me one of your conditioning tubes of sausage. So...panty hose as an edible product?
> 
> Just teasing. How do I recharge the gel? Is it purely distilled water?
> 
> ...


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## tzaddi (Feb 24, 2007)

Yes, my understanding from the initial read was correct.

Where physical humi or incubator )) space is at a premium then the KL silica gel beads are not a viable solution. Where space allows such as a huge cooler then KL silica gel beads are the economical choice hands down.

1 lbs of museum quality silica gel beads $25- $30
3 lbs of Kitty Liter silica gel beads $6 + the time and effort to condition them. 

Once again thanks, "now let's talk about chicks man." 



shilala said:


> Here's the big kicker, tzaddi.
> Pound for pound, the kitty litter is a third as effective _per surface area_.
> So if I have a pound of a higher quality RHbeads in a 1 foot square bucket and three pounds of kitty litter beads in another 1 square foot bucket, I will still only get 1/3 the efficacy of any other RHbeads.
> I would have to put those beads in 3 one foot square buckets at one pound each to reach the efficiency of one pound of RHbeads in one square foot bucket.
> ...


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

tchariya said:


> You talk a lot about how your test removes water out of the closed environment. Have you done and testing of the reverse? I'm curious which type of product is good/great at releasing humidity and which is good/great at removing humidity. Is there a product that is good at both?
> 
> I understand there is a level of effectiveness over time as well as how effective a product can be at supplying humidity over a certain period...ie bring it from 50RH to 65RH....so on and so forth.
> 
> Your work is awesome. I don't know if I would have the patience to do your testing. Man..can you imagine this being a science fair project for some kid in school?


No, there is no product that puts water back into the air as quickly as it takes it out.
It's long and involved because it relies on curves, and the curve is backwards for putting water back into the air.
If I use a time per volume per net aggregate test, the answer is Yes. Or it's "almost". A dessicant's desorbtion rate and adsorbtion rates differ, but in our application for a specific RH range and temp, there are no media that give off as quickly as they take up.

That's why we condition the beads and precondition the area we will be placing them into.
We call it "seasoning" a humidor here.
You have to season because RHbeads only hold a certain amount of water that's available to give up. (MHbeads hold far more water than RHbeads, btw. At least that's what my initial tests have shown. I have to do a lot more weight per volume tests to make sure what I just said is true, I'm speaking from what I've experienced so far and have no test data to back that claim up)
If you suck all the water out of RHbeads to season your cigars and the wood in your humi, odds are you will lower the bead's equilibrium RH dramatically.

One other thing...
MHbeads work far better than RHbeads at higher temps. But that's also of no consequence in our Humi's unless you live in a desert under a rock.


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## Scimmia (Sep 22, 2006)

I read somewhere that the beads we use from places like Heartfelt aren't pure silica gel, they have something else added that sets the "target RH". If they were just silica gel acting as a buffer, we wouldn't be able to just add an arbatrary amount of water to recharge them like we do.

Have you come across anything like that?


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

tzaddi said:


> Yes, my understanding from the initial read was correct.
> 
> Where physical humi or incubator )) space is at a premium then the KL silica gel beads are not a viable solution. Where space allows such as a huge cooler then KL silica gel beads are the economical choice hands down.
> 
> ...


Let me tweak your calculation a bit, cause it's very important.
1 lbs of museum quality silica gel beads _and 1 square foot of floor space_ costs $25- $30 
3 lbs of Kitty Litter silica gel beads _and 3 square feet of floor space_ costs $6 + the time and effort to condition them. 

The problem here is what people will take away from this is "3 lbs or kitty litter is as good as 1 pound of RHbeads."
That is wholly and patently untrue.
The efficacy of kitty litter compared to RHbeads is entirely reliant on surface area.
You know and I know that some kid will grab a bowl, put three pounds of beads in it, and then wonder why it only works 1/3 as well as the pound of RHbeads he used to have.
Add to that the fact that every humi, cooli, and wine cooler is stuffed to the gills and kitty litter becomes a useless commodity at any price.
It does work and it's easier to condition, though.
Like I mentioned earlier, I have 5.25 pounds of KLbeads in one of my wine coolers and it takes up the space of approximately 160 cigars.
2 lbs. of RHbeadsticks will take up the room of 32 cigars.
Those figures are real world figures as derived from measurements I just took from my own wine cooler.
That accounts for any mathematical discrepancies.
If I could arrange the kitty litter in thin sheets, it may work better.
It's just impractical in most real world situations.
You are absolutely right that if there is ample room available, it's a far less expensive solution. If I'm honest though, there's no such thing as ample room in a humidor.
We can blame the devil site for that. 

I had to mention one more "real world" point.
I can squeeze a lot more little cigar sized beadsticks in and around my humi than I can fit two big gargantuan bags of kitty litter.
At least this is what I found in my own coolers.
Another bonus is that I can distribute the beadsticks all over, effectively evening out the humidity in my humi without the need of fans.


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

Scimmia said:


> I read somewhere that the beads we use from places like Heartfelt aren't pure silica gel, they have something else added that sets the "target RH". If they were just silica gel acting as a buffer, we wouldn't be able to just add an arbatrary amount of water to recharge them like we do.
> 
> Have you come across anything like that?


Yes. David mentioned that here in a thread where we were discussing his beads. He said they were chemically treated.
I had looked at his website for info on what type of chemicals were used and asked him in the thread where we were discussing the beads.
I haven't gone back to see if he answered.
I'll dig up that thread later and see if he did.


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## Scimmia (Sep 22, 2006)

Great. I haven't been on much lately, must have missed that thread.


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## tzaddi (Feb 24, 2007)

shilala said:


> ...I had to mention one more "real world" point.
> I can squeeze a lot more little cigar sized beadsticks in and around my humi than I can fit two big gargantuan bags of kitty litter.
> At least this is what I found in my own coolers.
> Another bonus is that I can distribute the beadsticks all over, effectively evening out the humidity in my humi without the need of fans.


Distribution, Distribution, Distribution, that's what we are talking about.

Here are my "breadsticks" or "sausages" if you will.

You are correct in stressing the equal distribution of humidification material to create an effective and homogeneous environment. It's all about the surface area baby. :tu

Another reason why exploded and powdered beads are not as effective as whole "pearls". :tu


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

You're absolutely right.
For whatever reason the whole surface area concept seems to be ignored. 
Filling that bead bag of yours an inch thick is just as effective as filling it 4 inches thick.
The fact that exploded powdered beads are far less effective is also ignored.
If nothing else comes from all this blah than to drive those points home, I'd be more than happy with all the effort.
Even if that doesn't happen, it's still been fun, and I'm not even done yet. 

Oh yeah, the numbers I did earlier are skewed.
I didn't take into consideration that one side of my giant bean bags are sitting on the floor and wholly ineffective.
So actually it takes 11.2 pounds of kitty litter to do the job of one pound of RHbeads the way I have them arranged in my cooler.
I could tweak that calculation to exact measures, but at this point it's moot.



tzaddi said:


> Distribution, Distribution, Distribution, that's what we are talking about.
> 
> Here are my "breadsticks" or "sausages" if you will.
> 
> ...


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

Scimmia said:


> Great. I haven't been on much lately, must have missed that thread.


I found it, it's right here...
http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showthread.php?t=137453&highlight=humidity&page=3


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## Scimmia (Sep 22, 2006)

Hmm, good thread. I'd done a little research into silica gel back when I was involved in a big humidity thread (I linked you to it a while ago), and it took me a while to come across anything about treating it for a specific RH, then I couldn't find it again! I wasn't sure if I'd really seen it or not.


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

Scimmia said:


> Hmm, good thread. I'd done a little research into silica gel back when I was involved in a big humidity thread (I linked you to it a while ago), and it took me a while to come across anything about treating it for a specific RH, then I couldn't find it again! I wasn't sure if I'd really seen it or not.


There are a neverending list of salts and chemical preparations that will dictate the RH over them. Some are fine, some are really nasty. For instance, Sodium Bromide will hold a 59.1% RH, but if you eat it you're going to have problems.
Magnesium Nitrate will hold 56% humidity, but it will cause physical problems. 
Some salts create pollutants in a controlled atmosphere that will eat metals, some eat wood, some simply pollute the items within the controlled atmosphere.
That's why it's very important to me to know what's in chemically prepared anything.


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## tfar (Dec 27, 2007)

shilala said:


> I did find out one thing that's been debated heavily.
> I tested the Kitty Litter that folks have gone on about.
> It takes a little over 3 times the amount of Kitty Litter to do the job of one volume of any of the bead products we currently use.
> One good thing about kitty litter is that it doesn't explode on contact with water. There's a reason why that is, but I'm not going into it because it's windy and very technical and boring. )The Molecular beads also do not explode when water hits them.
> ...


Scott, first of all thanks a bunch for your great contribution.:tu I am particularly interested in the KL discussion. Since this is not going to harm any of our vendors and since there are different kitty litter beads on the market (I saw at least 3-4 products like that at petsmart), which beads did you use?

Now my second question with a little preamble so you know where the question comes from. You spoke to the only manufacturer of silica based beads. Since kitty litter beads and RH beads are both silica based, this means they come from the same manufacturer. Then you say that the quality of kitty litter beads is reported to be lower but the mfr says they are all made to the same specs.

If they are all from the same mfr and all made to the same specs and the quality is the same, then why do you need more KL than RH beads and why does KL not explode but RH beads do? That seems to be a pretty big difference in quality and specs if one can take three times more water but the other doesn't explode.

The KL I use does explode. Not with a loud bang or anything but they crack open with a crackling, sizzling sound and an outer spheric layer separates. The inner little sphere will splinter and crumble. If a cat peed on them it sure would sizzle.  However, putting them in nylon socks and spraying them leaves them intact.

To summarize the questions:

1. Which kitty litter beads did you use for the test?
2. How do you explain the different hygroscopic rates if they are manufactured to the same specs?

Your help is very much appreciated as I am much to dumb to figure this out on my own. THANKS!

Till


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## smokeyscotch (Apr 26, 2007)

Very interesting, I think. I enjoyed the read, and thank you for your efforts on this.:tu


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

tfar said:


> Scott, first of all thanks a bunch for your great contribution.:tu I am particularly interested in the KL discussion. Since this is not going to harm any of our vendors and since there are different kitty litter beads on the market (I saw at least 3-4 products like that at petsmart), which beads did you use?
> 
> Now my second question with a little preamble so you know where the question comes from. You spoke to the only manufacturer of silica based beads. Since kitty litter beads and RH beads are both silica based, this means they come from the same manufacturer. Then you say that the quality of kitty litter beads is reported to be lower but the mfr says they are all made to the same specs.
> 
> ...


Okay, first to the quality...
The quality control that goes into the beads is identical across the board (So I'm told. It doesn't make sense being that some products are lab grade, some are for soaking up chemicals spills, and some are used in hospitals, etc., but once again, it's what I was told), meaning you'll get the same amount of dust, etc, across the board. I meant to get across the point that quality control and purity specs are equal across the board.
The performance of each grade differs as to it's construction, and there are dozens of product specs, each creating a different product with differing performance curves, different size pores, different shapes, different rates of adsorbtion at different temperatues, etc., making each more suitable for different applications.
I believe in my initial post I had a "not" in there that was a typo, I removed it. I was speaking on quality of performance for our application in humi's.
I somehow mislead you concerning product specifications, sorry about that.
I should also mention here that products can be manufactured to custom specifications for particular applications.

I didn't mean to imply that I spoke to the only manufacturer in the world. I should have been more clear. I spoke to the only manufacturer that I could find, and found they were responsible for each of the products I used in my tests, suggesting to me that they were the only manufacturer. I asked if anyone knew of any other manufacturers to please let me know.

The type of Kitty litter I used is a non-indicating water-proof type called Petsmart Exquisicat Pearl Fresh Clear Kitty Litter.
It has the ability to hold 80% of it's own weight in water. It also will not explode when water hits it. (In contrast, the RHbeads we use are reported to hold about 2% of their weight in water, although I have not completed those tests.)
The reason for this is that it has very large pores (around the 120 angstrom range) and thicker pore walls than other grades.
That's great if you are using it to absorb liquids because it will adsorb 80% of it's weight in water. 
There are four other types of silica based products called "cat sand" with varying properties that I did not test because their shape dictated a low surface area which would cause them to do poorly in my tests.
I used Petsmart Exquisicat Pearl Fresh Clear Kitty Litter in my tests because they were the superior product for our application in humi's. (One of the members here sent them to me.) I chose those beads because I knew they were waterproof and that they were the best subject matter for my tests based on their properties. I was searching for a workable product that did not explode.
There are other kitty litter products that explode when water hits them. They are being rapidly discontinued because cats are afraid of them because the beads sizzle when they pee on them. They also create a good amount of heat when the pee hits them and the steamy heat distributes smells very well. Turns out someone didn't bother doing their homework. 

A few things I found out about silica gel beads is that the smaller the pores, the greater it's affinity for collecting water vapor. The larger the pores the greater it's ability to hold water, chemicals, or salts. I also found that the smaller the pores, the greater the chance it will explode on contact.
Those properties urged me to look for a product with smaller pores that would not explode when it comes in contact with water. I found that product in MHbeads.
It has pores that are only 4 angstroms across and very consistant. By comparison, RHbeads are 2-120 angstroms and irregular (across a number of grades and in themselves). The narrow pore products are used in low humidity applications. The RHbeads I've spoken about are Type B and have 40 to 70 (irregular)angstrom pores.
That grade lends itself well to using in our humidors because it's rate of adsorbtion and desorbtion is best of the available products in the 60 to 70% RH range. (There is one grade that would be comparable albeit a little lower in performance, but better for holding chemicals and solutions, but that's a whole other discussion.)

I think this answers your questions.
I should start proofreading my own stuff before I post. I always do it after I post, always did. I have no idea why I refuse to proofread first. Just set in my ways, I guess.


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## tzaddi (Feb 24, 2007)

*shilala*, I found the information on pore size to be very interesting and it answered many questions I have had regarding the performance of beads. Thanks.

Now onto the subject of *bead distribution and maximizing usable humidified space*. I have been thinking about this one for a while and perhaps it has crossed your mind as well.

What if the internal structure of the intended humidified container that holds the 5-6 walls in place as well as the sub-structure for the shelving was made of rigid plastic screen tubing not unlike what Heartfelt offers?

I imagine the tubes would be 3/4" diameter, held together using off the shelf PVC plumbing fittings. By keeping the plastic tubing small the amount of exposed surface area is kept at a maximum. Building the tubed structure inside the container would not only maintain the containers & shelves structural integrity but also provide the needed humidification system.

Basically getting those beads that are just lying around taking up space doing a single task become multi-taskers. 

It could be as simple as using the humidification tubes as lateral supports for shelving or even integrating the vertical supports as well. At this point the mind starts to imagine 3/4" thick walls filled with beads....

-Richard


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

I thought of an idea on those lines.
If I could make a screen wall in front of the walls of my humi/cooli/whatever, I could really take advantage of surface area.
I pretty much shitcanned the tubes with holes idea because no matter what I do, the tube itself will disrupt a large percentage of surface area.
The best solution I found so far is a sheer polyester fabric interfacing that can be welded. It's kinda on the order of pantyhose, but different.
Then I took the idea a bit further...
Rather than putting a pound of beads in one big bag, why not put a couple ounces in 8 bags shaped like cigars?

The bead trays that are available a number of places are a very nice idea. 
If two of them were arranged like a teepee and both sides of the tray were mesh, that would be 4 times the surface area of one tray alone, and it'd take up a fraction of the floorspace.

Here's a nother nugget for you to grind on...
Once beads get an inch deep, the ones beneath the inch level really don't do dick. The curve plummets after an inch of depth.
I worked that into the RHbeadstick concept so that the beads can offer the very maximum reactivity they are capable of.
It'd be better yet to arrange them in Lonsdale-like sticks, but I don't have the dexterity to make them, and the waste of fabric is over the top.

See what you come up with now that I added those couple considerations.
First thing that comes to mind is sheets just like the tubewalls you mentioned, but made out of a heavily perforated durable material.
Used for a shelf in a wine cooler the entire bottom would be exposed to the open air, plus all but the very highest points on the shelf top would be exposed (even once you place boxes on them).
There's a lot of cool things a guy could do.
I'm looking for a durable, easy, inexpensive option. 



tzaddi said:


> *shilala*, I found the information on pore size to be very interesting and it answered many questions I have had regarding the performance of beads. Thanks.
> 
> Now onto the subject of *bead distribution and maximizing usable humidified space*. I have been thinking about this one for a while and perhaps it has crossed your mind as well.
> 
> ...


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## tzaddi (Feb 24, 2007)

OK, here is what I am getting from your last post...

Imagine the five fingered ziplock bags that we use to hold and send cigars. Now imagine it made out of the fabric you speak of. The divisions could either be sewn or wielded, depending upon the available resources. Now imagine these fabric bags having as many "fingers" and as long as needed to cover a shelf, while still leaving room for air circulation.

Is that what we are talking about?


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## tfar (Dec 27, 2007)

Scott,

thanks for the excellent answer to my question. I now see what you are talking about. 

In my own application I use exactly the same kitty litter product you tested. 

The vinotemp I use is rather small at 2.5 ft^3. This means just half a pound of RH beads should do. I think I use around two pounds of kitty litter. Space is not really a concern. I use them distributed in four knee high nylon socks (basically pantyhose). They are very stable in terms of humidity and recover quickly. They usually stay around 65%. After opening the door for a while to select a cigar I usually spray each baggy with three trigger squeezes of distilled water. And I put another trigger squeeze on the boxes. The humidity will then go up to around 72 for a day before it slowly comes down again. This might not even be necessary but it makes me feel good.  I have no condensation whatsoever in the vinotemp.

I also don't use a cigar oasis or other electric humidifier. My estimate is that correctly charged beads (in the amount I mentioned for the space I mentioned) will hold 67-63 for around ten days in an unopened vinotemp. Then it will slowly drop. This vinotemp has two compartments each with its own (built-in from the factory) fan and temperature control. They are both set to the same 66 degrees. The smaller, upper compartment is less stable in humidity than the bigger one; humidity falls more rapidly. I suppose the fans do aerate and thus dry out the environment a bit. I might try to use more beads in the upper compartment. If I am gone for a longer period I think I will need a Hydra or similar device.

The ideal solution would probably be to have shelves made of beads as you say. If the material that is used to form the tubes heartfelt sells is available in flat sheets, this would be ideal. It might need some reinforcing but the sides could simply be filled with silicon caulk and thus hold two sheets together with the pearls in between the sheets.

If the kitty litter beads hold 80% of their weight in water and the RH beads hold only 2%, then the kitty litter is clearly the better solution than the RH beads for applications without Hydra. Though this figure does make me wonder why one would need to use three times the kitty litter if the kitty litter holds 40 times more water per weight. This must have to do something with the pore size, as you mention, being between 2 and three times smaller in RH beads.

The advantage of the Rh beads thus seems to be higher accuracy and their better reaction time thanks to higher pore surface area.

Given that the kitty litter costs 15 times less than the RH beads per pound and holds 40 times more water and is easier to refill because it doesn't explode, it seems like the kitty litter wins. Only if one is super hard pressed for space would the Rh beads be an advantage or if one is super anal about humidity. Since the cigars react slower than the beads to humidity changes this should really not be a large concern. In addition, since the KL holds more water it should survive longer without replenishment by the Hydra. So to be fair the space and cost for a Hydra device would have to be taken into account when using RH beads tilting the balance even more in favor of the KL.

Concluding I would say that the RH beads would be pretty ideal in a travel humidor or small desktop to replace the sponges whereas the kitty litter is clearly more cost effective in larger applications. For the amount one safes in beads one can get another cooler or even another vinotemp if you calculate the cost of a Hydra device.

This is indeed a very interesting thread. Thanks again.

Till


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## Zoomschwortz (Jul 14, 2006)

shilala said:


> I thought of an idea on those lines.
> If I could make a screen wall in front of the walls of my humi/cooli/whatever, I could really take advantage of surface area.
> I pretty much shitcanned the tubes with holes idea because no matter what I do, the tube itself will disrupt a large percentage of surface area.
> The best solution I found so far is a sheer polyester fabric interfacing that can be welded. It's kinda on the order of pantyhose, but different.
> ...


How about putting the beads in something like this? http://www.genpore.com/porous_plastic_sheet.htm

If the sheets are rigid enough, you could make something that looks like an ant farm so only the bottom edge would not get exposure.


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

tzaddi said:


> OK, here is what I am getting from your last post...
> 
> Imagine the five fingered ziplock bags that we use to hold and send cigars. Now imagine it made out of the fabric you speak of. The divisions could either be sewn or wielded, depending upon the available resources. Now imagine these fabric bags having as many "fingers" and as long as needed to cover a shelf, while still leaving room for air circulation.
> 
> Is that what we are talking about?


Yup. Exactly.
I think I can do that, too. I may build it today.
I was going to use an inflatable raft explanation, but we were on the same page already. 
You got a good head for this. If you have any more ideas, shoot them at me. I'll try anything and hold it up to the microscope to see what happens.


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

Zoomschwortz said:


> How about putting the beads in something like this? http://www.genpore.com/porous_plastic_sheet.htm
> 
> If the sheets are rigid enough, you could make something that looks like an ant farm so only the bottom edge would not get exposure.


Wow, Ken, nice idea!!!
I'll look at all that stuff and see what products might be rigid enough to use. Pricepoints will probably be killer, at first glance.
I'll read all that data later this evening. My head's a little squishy cause I've been trying to get sick for the last two days, so I'm not sure how much I can absorb, but there has to be some excellent ideas in there.


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## ca21455 (Jul 23, 2006)

Great post! Thanks for all the work you have completed so far on this.


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

Till, here's the thing...
You answered to one of the major kitty litter drawbacks.
It is incredibly nonresponsive to RH changes around itself. 
Unless a humi stays closed constantly, the net aggregate humidity could be anything.
Run the numbers. If you open it once a day and it takes a day to recover, and it's sometimes high and sometimes low, what is the average humidity over a month or a year?
It just simply cannot be used with any accuracy whatsoever.
The only situation where it would accel is in a great big perfectly sealed area that gets opened about once a year.
For use in a desktop humidor it's worthless, really. In a vino or cooli that gets opened very seldom, it may have some use.

Here's where I'm coming from...
My goal is to find what works best, and if there is anything that works better than what's already out there.
There are RHbeads that work far better for application in our humidors than kitty litter beads at just as low a price.
I'm trying to balance value with efficiency.
Kitty litter is a great value, but it is hugely inefficient.
When I went into these tests I was very high on the kitty litter idea. I really didn't expect it to perform so poorly.
The reason it performs so poorly is _because_ it holds so much water. All the pores and tunnels that are so important to efficient adsorbtion and desorbtion are full of water, thus rendering the beads almost completely ineffective for our use.
My concern is that after you use these things for a year, your smokes will have actually set in an environment whose RH is far outside the 60% to 70 range that's healthy for cigars.
Worse yet, without a chart recorder hooked to a computer, you have no way to know what the real humidity is in your vino.

I'd suggest a test.
Do what you normally do. Check the RH every hour on the hour for two days. Add all the readings and divide them by 48 and you'll have an average for that two day period.
I bet it turns out that it's nothing like you think it is.
I used to review and test incubators to grade them for accuracy. I also plotted the efficiency of different temperature control systems.
I found a lot of things that very much surprised me. Some of the most expensive systems were the least stable, while some old school and midrange controls actually netted the best net average over the course of 21 days.

If a humidification media does not recover quickly, the net average RH in our incubators will cause our expensive cigars to turn to shit.

Kitty litter is inexpensive, but it is a terrible value. It simply does not work well enough to be used in our humi's and vino's.
A sponge in PG solution and distilled water is by far the better option at a similar pricepoint.

The one place where Kitty Litter may be worthwhile is in coolidors.
That is assuming a cooli only gets opened a couple times a year.
If it gets opened every day or a number of times a week, it once again becomes a very poor choice and a very poor value because it simply will not work as we intend it to.

If you would like to take a look at some RHbeads in your own cigar keeping environments and you'd be willing to share what you've seen in a review, I will be happy to hook you up.
Simply pm me the dimensions of your coolers, vinos, or whatever and I'll send you the stuff you need to control their humidity.
I would truly appreciate your input, observations and insight. It'd help me greatly. :tu



tfar said:


> Scott,
> 
> thanks for the excellent answer to my question. I now see what you are talking about.
> 
> ...


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## tfar (Dec 27, 2007)

Scott,

thanks for your generous offer of hooking me up with some RH beads. I think what I should do before I accept that is give you my previous humidity track which was done half-ass and then try to do one that is more exact. I shall publish the results here.

I see what you say about recovery time. I am currently checking the humidity feverishly everytime I walk by the room. The reading doesn't move. Temperature varies a bit between 67 and 68 depending on ambient temperature.

I have opened and sprayed yesterday as described above. The humidity then read 72 in the upper compartment and 71 in the lower. Now, 24 hours later each of the readings dropped 1 percentage point. It is now 9:40pm CST.

Let me give you some of my previous results that I wrote down to get an idea. UP refers to the upper compartment, DOWN refers to the lower compartment. Temperature during the time was always between 66 and 68F. Readings are taken in the evening at roughly 24h intervals.

SAT 2/16 Up70 Down70
SUN 2/17 Up66 Down69 Humi was opened on that afternoon before reading
2/18 69 68
2/19 66 67
2/23 66 65 I was gone for four full days
2/24 64 66 Came home and smoked a welcome cigar 
2/25 61 68
2/26 63 65

I then stopped recording the readings out of laziness for some days but started yesterday again so here is the new series.

2/29 72 71
3/01 71 70 

I checked several times in the last 24 hours and there were no up or down swings at all, humidity just dropped 1 point. It's slowly settling. I expect it to go down to 65-ish over the next three to five days and stay there for at least five days before it drops into the lower 60 range. Tomorrow on 3/02 I must open the vino because we have a herf. I will note the humidity before and after opening as well as how quickly it recovers.

I try to open the vino not more than once a week (I smoke maximum 1-2 cigars per week rather only 1 in two weeks). So let's make the first round a two week trial with little opening. The second round shall be a two week trial with daily openings.

As if I didn't have anything else to do. If ever I am poking fun at anybody here for being anal, just quote me this post, ok? 

Once these two series are established I am glad to take you up on your offer and give my kitty litter a rest while I try any media you send me.

Best,

Till


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## DBall (Jun 4, 2007)

Scott...thanks for finally posting this thread... :tu


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## ca21455 (Jul 23, 2006)

I have a 16.3 cu. ft. cabinet purchased in the spring of 2007. The humidity is monitored with a Radio shack digital hygrometer that also records the max and min readings. 

After seasoning, the cabinet maintained 66% humidity +/- 2% using only one pound of 65% beads. The low volume of beads was possible due to maintaining the humidity in the room around 60%. It is located in the basement, the temperature runs about 65 F and the room humidity is controlled with a dehumidifier.

When winter arrived, the humidity dropped to 35% in the room. Since the beads were far below the amount required, the humidity started to drop especially when the cabinet door was opened. I put in all kinds of additional passive humidifiers, which kept the humidity up but did not recover well from the door being opened.

Purchased a Moist-N-Aire humidifier which is basically a water reservoir with a fan and control unit. Placed the unit at the bottom of the cabinet. It did an excellent job of quickly raising the humidity in the cabinet, but did a poor job of maintaining a constant humidity level throughout the cabinet. The controller was also confused by the high humidity at the bottom and would turn off quickly. 

A fan was installed to move the air around the cabinet and this helped level out the humidity. The cabinet is tall and narrow. 

Still had trouble with the controller not keeping a steady humidity. I do not think the controller is very accurate or sensitive. So l set the controller to max (always on) and plugged the unit into a timer that is set to run about two hours per day. This helped maintain a good range of about 66 to 70.

This was still a bit to wide so I placed the pound of beads back in at the top of the cabinet and cut back on the run time.

The current configuration maintains the cabinet at 66 to 68 from top to bottom. I feel this is pretty good for a "crude" system. This also gives me the ability to start the humidifier when the door is opened to regain humidity in the cabinet and then shut it off and reset the timer.

Anyway, it appears the best system to maintain is a well regulated non-passive system with good air flow. 

Here are some pictures:

This is the current setting on the timer. It can be set to run several times per day, but currently once per day is working well.



This is the cabinet. The beads are on the top shelf, the hygrometers are on the third and the fan and humidifier are on the bottom. The Radio Shack hygrometer was salt tested and reads right on. The smaller one is about 3% low. I used the small hygrometer to monitor other areas in the cabinet.



The humidifier and fan. The fan is large but I was just using this to experiment. The next step is to purchase some small computer fans for recirculation and give me more cabinet space.


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

tfar said:


> SAT 2/16 Up70 Down70
> SUN 2/17 Up66 Down69 Humi was opened on that afternoon before reading
> 2/18 69 68
> 2/19 66 67
> ...


Hi Till,
I looked over those numbers, added them up and averaged them. The average was 67.35%.
That seems fine. 
Just a couple points, and you're already looking into that stuff, but I just wanted to tell you what I was thinking.
If you were to a reading in the morning and one in the evening every day for a year, I think it'd give you a real good idea of what your average humidity is in your vino.
Now, for the sake of argument, what if you want to change your humidity to 60%?
It'll take another year to see if you got it right.
Your readings just go to show that KLbeads just cannot meet any sort of ridgid RH specs.
Will they work? Hell yeah. We already showed that.
Will the satisfy my anal retentive desire to have complete and accurate control of the RH in my humidor?
Nope. Not a chance in hell.

Being it's winter and you're already averaging in the upper 60's, I wonder if the higher humidity of summer will push your RH% up in the 70's?
See, that'd scare me to death. I wouldn't be able to sleep nights. 

I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with.
Don't lose all your data, cause I want you to be able to compare it against the RHbeads or MHbeads.
What is your target RH%, anyways? I don't think I ever saw you say.


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

DBall said:


> Scott...thanks for finally posting this thread... :tu


It's your fault, ya know.


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## tfar (Dec 27, 2007)

Scott,

thanks for averaging those up. My target rh would be in the upper 60 range so 65-70. I don't sweat it if they are at 63 but at 60 I would definitely replenish with distilled water. If I had a hydra in it I would probably set it at 65 knowing that there is a risk of condensation and that I don't want the sticks to soak, either.

Here are the new numbers:

2/29 72 71 this is after replenishing
3/01 71 70 at 9:40pm
72 71 at 11:20pm
3/02 71 71 at 11:45am before opening - after opening 3min it was 68 up and 69 down
70 71 at 12:45pm just took an hour or less to recover

More to come. PM me your addy, I got plenty of Cuban cigar bands.

Till


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

That is totally awesome.
Goes to show what you can do when you have room.
In my vinos I plan to add some small quiet fans as well as some nice switched lights so that I can see when I'm digging around.
I'll distribute MHbeadsticks in small Torpedo sized sachets distributed evenly all around the unit.
I want to see what that does before I go to the bother of adding fans.

My hope is that with even distribution of beads, there won't be any need for fans, and it'll cost no more than putting a couple pounds of beads in two areas.
Add to that I won't use up hardly any floorspace and it'd be an excellent system for small wine coolers and humi's.

If I had a great big cabinet upstairs in the house I'd probably opt for a hydra.
I think you hit the nail right on the head with your cabinet in the basement. You've arrived at an awesome solution.
Kickass system, brother. :tu


ca21455 said:


> I have a 16.3 cu. ft. cabinet purchased in the spring of 2007. The humidity is monitored with a Radio shack digital hygrometer that also records the max and min readings.
> 
> After seasoning, the cabinet maintained 66% humidity +/- 2% using only one pound of 65% beads. The low volume of beads was possible due to maintaining the humidity in the room around 60%. It is located in the basement, the temperature runs about 65 F and the room humidity is controlled with a dehumidifier.
> 
> ...


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

See, that looks like the KLbeads are doing a pretty decent job of recovering.
It's probably because the ambient RH is close to the RH inside the vino?
What's the RH% outside your cabinet?
The ambient humidity is probably what will dictate the swings at different times of the year. If there's a wide margin, it's likely it won't recover as well.
I didn't look where you live, and that would really help to make an educated guess.
I don't think I saw the area inside your vino or how many pounds of beads you were using, and how they are arranged.
I'd like to see all those numbers to see how the KLbeads score in your application.
It'd be a real world situation that I could compare to my test numbers.
I'll pm you with my address, Thanks for the bands!!!



tfar said:


> Scott,
> 
> thanks for averaging those up. My target rh would be in the upper 60 range so 65-70. I don't sweat it if they are at 63 but at 60 I would definitely replenish with distilled water. If I had a hydra in it I would probably set it at 65 knowing that there is a risk of condensation and that I don't want the sticks to soak, either.
> 
> ...


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## ca21455 (Jul 23, 2006)

shilala said:


> That is totally awesome.
> Goes to show what you can do when you have room.
> In my vinos I plan to add some small quiet fans as well as some nice switched lights so that I can see when I'm digging around.
> I'll distribute MHbeadsticks in small Torpedo sized sachets distributed evenly all around the unit.
> ...


Thanks!

It would take 4 pounds of beads to maintain the humidity in my cabinet. Have had great results with the beads in all of my smaller humidors. The only problem was recovering the humidity in the winter. May have been worth a shot since overall the beads would cost less.

However, I love to play around with the cigars so the shot of increased humidity is important.

May add another pound of beads for the summer and turn off the humidifier.

Since the cigar population keeps increasing, may have to go the way of all beads. That may work well with a smaller volume of air in the cabinet.


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

ca21455 said:


> Thanks!
> 
> It would take 4 pounds of beads to maintain the humidity in my cabinet. Have had great results with the beads in all of my smaller humidors. The only problem was recovering the humidity in the winter. May have been worth a shot since overall the beads would cost less.
> 
> ...


For the cost of four pounds of beads, you could use a hydra.
I don't have any experience with them, but I used a lot of auto-humidification systems in my day.
They all sucked except one, and it was a systolic pump with media paper.
About 400 bucks, but it worked perfectly, recovered almost instantly, and was a joy to use.
If I had a great big honkin cabinet, it's something I'd consider. Maybe.
If I had a walk in humidor, I would definately use it.


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## tfar (Dec 27, 2007)

shilala said:


> See, that looks like the KLbeads are doing a pretty decent job of recovering.
> It's probably because the ambient RH is close to the RH inside the vino?
> What's the RH% outside your cabinet?
> The ambient humidity is probably what will dictate the swings at different times of the year. If there's a wide margin, it's likely it won't recover as well.
> ...


I have around one and a half to two pounds of beads in there. When I filled the hoses there were two hoses with about 250g each and two hoses with about 150g each. So that's 800g, a little under two pounds (dry weight). The bigger ones are in the bottom of the bigger lower compartment. The smaller hoses are in the bottom of the small upper compartment.

This is a pic of the vino

You can see socks in the alu pan in the bottom and the socks up top directly on the plastic.

Ambient humidity today is probably around 40-50. The AC is not running and it is kind of heavy outside (no rain though).

In the winter with AC it is much closer to 30-35.

Cheers,

Till


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## tfar (Dec 27, 2007)

Updated humi data

2/29 72 71 this is after replenishing
3/01 71 70 at 9:40pm
72 71 at 11:20pm
3/02 71 71 at 11:45am before opening - after opening 3min it was 68 up and 69 down
70 71 at 12:45pm just took an hour or less to recover
69 71 at 6:00pm
62 71 at 11:45pm here we see a strange drop in the upper smaller part, while lower part stays super stable.

It was getting quite hot in the house and the temp in the vino rose to 68.7 in the upper compartment while the lower one stays stable at 67. I now turned on the AV this will lower the ambient temp to 78 but will also lower the ambient humidity.

I will continue this test as is and if I find the upper part is too unstable I will throw in a half pound of beads extra.

Eventually I will need to get a Hydra but I want to figure out first how the current method works without introducing yet another factor.

It looks like I have to copy and paste the list every time I make an update but it is easier to follow for those interested when all the data is in one place and you don't have to skim posts.

Till


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## fizguy (Jul 26, 2006)

shilala said:


> This whole act that is going on is called "Equilibrium".
> The beads want their stored water to be in equilibrium with the surrounding air.
> This is an oversimplification, but a real easy explanation...
> If the beads have absorbed 70% of the water that they are capable of holding, they will want the air around them to be holding 70% of the air that it can hold.
> ...


I found this after some searching:

http://www.apsnyc.com/pdf/silica_gel_SW_2003.pdf

I also stand corrected. I wasn't convinced that beads could be conditioned by placing them in a container where the air was held at a particular RH. I thought there must be something physically different between "65% beads" and "70%". But unless there is something else I don't know it would seem they are only different in their storage.

I am still not sure about saying that if the beads are holding 70% of their capacity then the air will be at 70% RH. The isotherms in the document listed above give the equilibrium moisture contect (EMC) as a function of RH and at 70% RH silica gel is at about 35% EMC. I think the equilibrium is not reached between available "sites" on the silica or in the gel, but equilibrium between the air's tendency to receive a water molecule and the silica's tendency to adsorb one. This probably depends on more than just available sites but on energy and enthalpy changes.

One question this raises. How can the beads be recharged simply by spraying? That seems too inexact. How do we know they have exactly the right amount of water?

This whole topic has been interesting and I have wasted (or not, depending on how you look at it) lots of time reading and searching. It's not terribly important, thought, because we all maintain our RH about the same way and have been for some time with great success!


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## tfar (Dec 27, 2007)

How do you know you have the right amount of water by pouring water on the beads or by putting a shotglass next to them versus spraying them? If it were at all possible to determine the right amount of water by calculation so that is actually works in practice-which I doubt- then one could simply measure the amount of water coming out on a full trigger squeeze from a spray bottle.

The idea of spraying them comes from what I would fashionably call in-situ conditioning. You put the pearls in the environment they are aupposed to humidify. Hygrometer(s) are monitoring that environment. Then you spray them or add humidity until you reach the desired level. Most likely you have to add a little bit more because the humidity spike after spraying is always a bit higher than the actual value they will hold.

They naturally also don't hold humidity forever. The water will eventually be gone. So just beads is not a set and forget solution. The spray method is VERY simple and does not require a real extra step, just some experimenting and experience. When you open the case, say once a week as I do, you give it a couple of squirts from a bottle next to the case. That's it. It's all that is needed to make sure they stay in the right range.

For a better solution an active humi device is needed in combination with the beads. for longer intervals between refilling one can seal the vino better by plugging the drain. It might be required to look at the fan(s) whether there is really not outside air exchange coming through the fans. I supposes there is air exchange. So perhaps a fully hermetic set-up is not possible. But in the interest of avoiding condensation and mold a little aeration is certainly a good idea.

Till


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## tfar (Dec 27, 2007)

Update 3/03

2/29 72 71 this is after replenishing
3/01 71 70 at 9:40pm
72 71 at 110pm

3/02 71 71 at 11:45am before opening - after opening 3min it was 68 up and 69 down
70 71 at 12:45pm just took an hour or less to recover
69 71 at 6:00pm
62 71 at 11:45pm here we see a strange drop in the upper smaller part, while lower part stays super stable.

3/03 69 73 at 2:45am
71 75 at 9:05am It was raining heavily here.
71 75 at 2:00pm
71 75 at 5:20pm
72 75 at 8:20pm just before opening
68 74 at 8:22pm after closing the door
71 74 at 9:00pm recovered within 40 minutes
71 74 at 11:50pm

In my eyes the fact that it was raining like crazy had an effect on the humidity reading. Or I have done too much of a good thing when I replenished four days ago. Anyway, I am not too worried as this is at around 67F. So the absolute moisture content is still ok.

Till


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

tfar said:


> I have around one and a half to two pounds of beads in there. When I filled the hoses there were two hoses with about 250g each and two hoses with about 150g each. So that's 800g, a little under two pounds (dry weight). The bigger ones are in the bottom of the bigger lower compartment. The smaller hoses are in the bottom of the small upper compartment.
> 
> This is a pic of the vino
> 
> ...


Hey Till,
Something you might want to try is to put those beads in more bags.
The more surface area you can provide, the better your beads will work.
A dozen bags will work far better than just a couple big bags.
It's about surface area.
The more beads touching the air, the faster they'll react.
If you give it a shot, let me know how it works out for you.
I bet you'll be pleasantly surprised!!!


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

fizguy said:


> One question this raises. How can the beads be recharged simply by spraying? That seems too inexact. How do we know they have exactly the right amount of water?


To get an idea of why beads can be recharged by simply spraying, there's a few more things at play that you might want to know that will help your understanding.
1.) Silica has a natural affinity for gathering water. That affinity is better taken advantage of by creating a greater surface area on and within the bead itself. The more pores and tunnels a bead has, the stronger it's affinity.
2.) Consider the salt test for a moment. We know that sodium chloride in a stiff slurry will create an RH% around it of 75%. There are an endless list of chemical preparations and salts that have similar properties.
Here's a few salts, for instance...
Magnesium Chloride 33.1%
Potassium Carbonate 43.2%
Sodium Nitrate 66%
Sodium Chloride 75.7% 
Potassium Chloride 85.1% 
3.) Silica gel (beads) have a high level of decrepitation. That means that they want to crack and break when heated.

Now that we looked at those few things, I can answer your question.
If beads are treated with a salt or chemical, that chemical will dictate it's surrounding RH value.
Propylene glycol is another excellent example of a preparation that we use. It will gather water down to 70% RH and give away water when the surrounding air is less than 70%
If we treat beads with a chemical preparation we can control their RH point.
Something happens when we do that. The chemical or prepartion is going to take up space inside the bead that could be used for water. It will occupy voids who we are depending on to suck water out of the air or give water back to the air.
So, regardless of what we put in beads, we're going to impact their effectiveness negatively.
Obviously we'd want to use whatever type of salt or chemical that impacts the bead's performance the least.
The good thing is that it makes the beads more user friendly.
It also allows me to just dump water on them because they'll only take on as much water as they can take.

Now, here's another thing we should know about pouring water on beads.
Remember the decrepitation? Beads want to crack when we heat them.
When I pour water on beads, they will suck it in so fast that they create a large volume of heat by friction. When they heat up, they crack, fragment and lose their shape.
The shape of a bead is a large part of why they work so well. They have a tremendous amount of surface area, plus the round shape insures air space between the beads allowing for air flow.
If I cause all my beads to explode and end up with a pile of dust, they aren't going to work nearly as well.
In actuality, the fractured pieces work in the same way they always did, and retain their properties. They still want to gather water, etc.
What we've lost by turning them to dust is surface area and air spaces.
That means that as a whole, they can no longer do the job they used to be able to do.
A pound of bead dust will not perform anywhere near as well as a pound of beads.
If I want my beads to continue to perform at their best, I should NEVER pour water directly on them. Sit a small pan of water by them and they'll suck up the vapor coming off that pan. It takes a bit longer, but the benefit is that your beads will work to their peak performance far longer.
There was another thing I wanted to say, but it left me.
Maybe I'll remember later.
Oh, I got it. There were two things.
Some beads such as KL beads and MHbeads don't expode on contact.
KL beads don't explode because they have large pores and fewer pores by comparison to other beads. Fewer pores allow for thicker tunnel walls, making them internally stronger and far less likely to explode.
The trade off is that they don't have much of an affinity for transferring vapor (by comparison).
MHbeads have extremely tiny pores. The reason they don't explode when they come in contact with water is that they are not silica and aren't nearly as brittle.
They make so much heat when sucking up water that they will literally melt through a plastic bag. That's how badass they are. 

Last point about pores...
Pores in beads will also trap particles from their surrounding atmosphere.
In time they will become more and more plugged, thus decreasing their performance. There's nothing that can be done about that, it's just a fact of life that there's stuff in the air.
You can't clean them, all you can do is replace them. They'll last for a long, long time without much of a performance hit, but if I'm not using distilled water I'm going to decrease their effectiveness a lot quicker because they'll gather the impurities in the water.
A cool thing about MHbeads is that they can be steam cleaned. They can literally be boliled or steamed to clean them, thus restoring their effectiveness. How I'd do it is something I haven't figured out yet, but I will. 
Another cool thing about MHbeads is that they have very small pores, only 4 angstroms wide and very, very uniform. Compare that to RHbeads that run anywhere from 2 to 120 angstroms and are not uniform.
The benefit is that MHbeads are less likely to gather impurities within themselves, insuring that they stay cleaner longer, and as a result, work better longer.
Hope this helps!!!


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

tfar said:


> How do you know you have the right amount of water by pouring water on the beads or by putting a shotglass next to them versus spraying them? If it were at all possible to determine the right amount of water by calculation so that is actually works in practice-which I doubt- then one could simply measure the amount of water coming out on a full trigger squeeze from a spray bottle.
> 
> The idea of spraying them comes from what I would fashionably call in-situ conditioning. You put the pearls in the environment they are aupposed to humidify. Hygrometer(s) are monitoring that environment. Then you spray them or add humidity until you reach the desired level. Most likely you have to add a little bit more because the humidity spike after spraying is always a bit higher than the actual value they will hold.
> 
> ...


Good stuff, Till. Right on target, too.
I have read somewhere along the way that we can do a weight/volume calculation for adding water to beads to get "the right RH".
If I know the bead's capacity for holding water and it's weight, I should be able to calculate how much water I need to add to a volume of beads to obtain a certain RH.
Because of the inconsistancy of RHbead's construction (there's no way to know how much surface area there is per volume, or exactly how much water a volume of beads can hold), I guess it's not possible to be very accurate.
I'd think it'd be a useful tool to get the beads close to the desired RH.
I can and have done that with MHbeads. Problem is that they get very hot and steamy and lose lots of water and I have to cool them as I add water and it's a pain in the ass.
It's far easier to create an environment that they can pull vapor from.

For instance, if I'm conditioning 65% beads, I use a flat pan, fill it up with beads and put them in a cooler.
Inside the cooler I have a screaming Papst fan (like a computer fan) that's powered by a ac adapter plugged in the wall.
To supply a contolled amount of water vapor, I use a mixture of polygel and sodium nitrate in another flat pan.
I leave everything in there for a day or so and take samples of the beads and test them in a ziplock bag with a hygrometer.
I then make the beadsticks or whatever I'm making and put them back in the cooler to fine tweak them.
If they end up a little higher RH% than I want, I just leave them sitting out in the air (it's like 45%RH in here) for awhile till they drop to where I want them, testing them every hour or so.
It's really pretty easy, just takes time and patience, that's all.


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## awsmith4 (Jun 5, 2007)

This thread is actually interesting, a little over my head at times, but very interesting. Oh and

:blHAPPY BIRTHDAY SHILALA:bl


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

awsmith4 said:


> This thread is actually interesting, a little over my head at times, but very interesting. Oh and
> 
> :blHAPPY BIRTHDAY SHILALA:bl


Thanks my brother!!!
Yesterday I went back to work. By lunchtime I was at the hospital because I got knocked off a ladder and landed on my back on a pile of great big valves and flanges.
It goes without saying that I'm pretty busted up.
I've made it to the couch with my laptop and it appears I'll be here a few days.
My sweet baby stayed home from work to babysit. 
She's baking me a hot pastrami sammich right now.
This being hurt on my birthday really ain't so bad.


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## awsmith4 (Jun 5, 2007)

shilala said:


> Thanks my brother!!!
> Yesterday I went back to work. By lunchtime I was at the hospital because I got knocked off a ladder and landed on my back on a pile of great big valves and flanges.
> It goes without saying that I'm pretty busted up.
> I've made it to the couch with my laptop and it appears I'll be here a few days.
> ...


Well get better soon:tu


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## DBall (Jun 4, 2007)

shilala said:


> Thanks my brother!!!
> Yesterday I went back to work. By lunchtime I was at the hospital because I got knocked off a ladder and landed on my back on a pile of great big valves and flanges.
> It goes without saying that I'm pretty busted up.
> I've made it to the couch with my laptop and it appears I'll be here a few days.
> ...


Dude... that sucks.. get better soon, man!


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

Thanks guys. 
That pastrami sammich totally kicked ass.
She rubbed the bun with Olive Oil and galic salt and baked it in tinfoil and loaded it up with swiss cheese. I damn near pushed it down my hole all at once.
It was incredible.


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## tzaddi (Feb 24, 2007)

Happy Birthday, and watch you language  it is starting to rival Joan. :r :bl


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## smokeyscotch (Apr 26, 2007)

Dang, Bro! Did you get vertigo or something? Take care of yourself. man. You should have something to cheer you up there soon.

Happy Birthday!!!



shilala said:


> Thanks my brother!!!
> Yesterday I went back to work. By lunchtime I was at the hospital because I got knocked off a ladder and landed on my back on a pile of great big valves and flanges.
> It goes without saying that I'm pretty busted up.
> I've made it to the couch with my laptop and it appears I'll be here a few days.
> ...


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## tfar (Dec 27, 2007)

First of all, HAPPY BIRTHDAY, Scott! And second, get better soon. At least you are well taken care of, I see.

And as if there was nothing more exciting in the world below are my humidity readings from March 4.

2/29 72 71 this is after replenishing
3/01 71 70 at 9:40pm
72 71 at 110pm

3/02 71 71 at 11:45am before opening - after opening 3min it was 68 up and 69 down
70 71 at 12:45pm just took an hour or less to recover
69 71 at 6:00pm
62 71 at 11:45pm here we see a strange drop in the upper smaller part, while lower part stays super stable.

3/03 69 73 at 2:45am
71 75 at 9:05am It was raining heavily here.
71 75 at 2:00pm
71 75 at 50pm
72 75 at 80pm just before opening
68 74 at 82pm after closing the door
71 74 at 9:00pm recovered within 40 minutes
71 74 at 11:50pm

3/04

70 73 at 0:55am
70 71 at 12:30pm the weather yesterday was sunny and relatively warm/dry
70 70 at 3:30pm
69 71 at 6:00pm
69 71 at 7:30pm
70 70 at 11:50pm

3/05

68 70 at 11:50am weather today looks like it's gonna be like yesterday


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## Zoomschwortz (Jul 14, 2006)

shilala said:


> Thanks my brother!!!
> Yesterday I went back to work. By lunchtime I was at the hospital because I got knocked off a ladder and landed on my back on a pile of great big valves and flanges.
> It goes without saying that I'm pretty busted up.
> I've made it to the couch with my laptop and it appears I'll be here a few days.
> ...


Dang Scott, that really sucks.

I hope you get well very soon.

By the way, what ya smokin for a Birthday cigar? What ever it is, I hope the pain doesn't take away the pleasure of kicking back on the couch and smokin that fine cigar.

Take care and Happy B-day:bl


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## WyoBob (Mar 6, 2007)

shilala said:


> She rubbed the bun with Olive Oil and galic salt <rest snipped due to this being a modest group> It was incredible.


???? Gee, my wife just tells me to take some Advil:chk

WyoBob

Oh, and sorry about the accident. I hope you heal quickly.


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## tfar (Dec 27, 2007)

Update March 5

2/29 72 71 this is after replenishing
3/01 71 70 at 9:40pm
72 71 at 110pm

3/02 71 71 at 11:45am before opening - after opening 3min it was 68 up and 69 down
70 71 at 12:45pm just took an hour or less to recover
69 71 at 6:00pm
62 71 at 11:45pm here we see a strange drop in the upper smaller part, while lower part stays super stable.

3/03 69 73 at 2:45am
71 75 at 9:05am It was raining heavily here.
71 75 at 2:00pm
71 75 at 50pm
72 75 at 80pm just before opening
68 74 at 82pm after closing the door
71 74 at 9:00pm recovered within 40 minutes
71 74 at 11:50pm

3/04

70 73 at 0:55am
70 71 at 12:30pm the weather yesterday was sunny and relatively warm/dry
70 70 at 3:30pm
69 71 at 6:00pm
69 71 at 7:30pm
70 70 at 11:50pm

3/05

68 70 at 11:50am weather today looks like it's gonna be like yesterday
68 71 at 3:00pm
67 71 at 8:45pm
66 71 at 11:50pm

Checked the in room humidity tonight with another hygro I just bought. It said 36% but I am not sure how accurate it is, still salt testing.

I have also taken temperature readings but didn't publish those. The lower, bigger compartment is constantly 1-1.5 degrees colder. Both compartment have the same fan and Peletier unit (one fan and one Peletier unit each). I would suppose the smaller one holds humidity and temperature better but it is less stable. I also suppose that the temperature difference is due to warm air rising. The two compartments are not entirely hermetic against each other. There is some air space where the control panel is. Since both units have separate temp controls it would be no problem turning the upper one down a degree or two to compensate. I wonder whether this will also influence the fact that the upper compartment is usually lower in humidity.

Once I have empiric findings that allow me to really see how the thing works I can decide whether I want to try to have both compartments the same and what I need to do to achieve that. Or I can use the flexibility to my advantage and store cigars for short time consumption in the drier and warmer upper compartment, while I use the lower, cooler and wetter compartment for long term storage. Even their respective size would lend itself to this kind of use.

I hope I will be disciplined enough to post my readings for another nine days. Then we have a full 15 day period. This will give everybody an idea whether kitty litter is good enough for their use. For me, it looks as if I will stick to it but buy a hydra for longer absences when I cannot have an eye on it.

Till


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## tfar (Dec 27, 2007)

*One week update*

update March 6 please scroll down

2/29

72 71 this is after replenishing

3/01

71 70 at 9:40pm
72 71 at 110pm

3/02

71 71 at 11:45am before opening - after opening 3min it was 68 up and 69 down
70 71 at 12:45pm just took an hour or less to recover
69 71 at 6:00pm
62 71 at 11:45pm here we see a strange drop in the upper smaller part, while lower part stays super stable.

3/03 69 73 at 2:45am
71 75 at 9:05am It was raining heavily here.
71 75 at 2:00pm
71 75 at 50pm
72 75 at 80pm just before opening
68 74 at 82pm after closing the door
71 74 at 9:00pm recovered within 40 minutes
71 74 at 11:50pm

3/04

70 73 at 0:55am
70 71 at 12:30pm the weather today was sunny and relatively warm/dry
70 70 at 3:30pm
69 71 at 6:00pm
69 71 at 7:30pm
70 70 at 11:50pm

3/05

68 70 at 11:50am weather today looks like it's gonna be like yesterday
68 71 at 3:00pm
67 71 at 8:45pm
66 71 at 11:50pm

3/06

67 72 at 3:00am It was raining all night and most of the day but it is cold.
68 71 at 11:50am
68 71 at 2:50pm
69 71 at 5:40pm opened for 30 seconds
67 70 at 9:30pm
67 70 at 11:50pm

This means that after one week the humidity fell 4 percentage points in the upper compartment and 1 point in the lower compartment. This is when compared to RH level directly after replenishing and thus higher because of water mist in the vino. If we look after one day and thus without the spike it fell 3 points in the upper and 1 point in the lower compartment.

I opened the vino three times during this week. Once when temp and humidity were normal (dry and warm), once when it was hot and rainy and once when it was cold and rainy. So we covered almost all conditions.

I have not replenished the KL during the entire week. Besides a small spike 2-4 points up on that hot and humid day the level shows a slight downward tendency.

This is totally logical and cannot be avoided. The surrounding humidity is generally lower. The box is not totally hermetic and it was opened three times. The humidity total can only go down in these circumstances when the KL is not replenished.

My prediction is that things will stabilize in the upper compartment around 63 and in the lower compartment around 67. However, it might take some more days to get there. It will be interesting to see where the stasis point is this time (because I did a generous replenishing on 2/29 to bring the level up). It will also be interesting to see how long they stay at that point and how fast they drop off afterwards.

I might re-open the vino on Sunday because we have a very nice dinner ahead and I want to smoke a cigar after that.

Did anyone else do a continuous test with multiple measurements like I am doing? If so, what were your results?

Till


----------



## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

*Re: One week update*

I'm looking forward to finding out what happens, Till.
I'm also looking forward to you doing the same test with RHbeads. That should show the clear difference in control capability between KLbeads and RHbeads.


----------



## nozero (Jul 7, 2007)

Just wanted to post a 








to all who invested there time in providing this information.


----------



## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

nozero said:


> Just wanted to post a
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's a cool blinky thank you!!!


----------



## nozero (Jul 7, 2007)

shilala said:


> That's a cool blinky thank you!!!


You're most welcome.

On another note, I've been wondering why nobody has mentioned "The Puck" or the beads Cigarmony carries in any of these bead threads.

Personally, I have a Puck-ifier Puck-100 / 70% and a 2 Ounce 65% Rh (BLUE Cap) Heartfelt Humidity Tube  and I recently purchased a jug of the ExquisiCat Pearl Fresh Litter from Petsmart. Right now, I'm toying with the Pearls in my Vinotemp and use the others in my humis.

Since the other thread about this specifically mentioned Heartfelt, I didn't want to step on any toes by mentioning "The Puck" there, but this seemed like an excellent opportunity to give equal time to Cigarmony's product of similar nature.

With the temperature and humidity swings we've had here in Texas lately, combined with frequent opening and closing of the room door (where I keep the humis and the Vinotemp) combined with the opening and closing of humidor lids, and now the Vinotemp door, while both selecting and rearranging. Keeping my RH stable has become a little more challenging than usual. I'm sure that each of these products will serve my needs in their own way.


----------



## tfar (Dec 27, 2007)

So you are in Texas, too? Interesting. At least I have people to back up my crazy weather comments. 

I think the only reason Scott and I didn't mention the cigarmony products is that they are most likely the same thing as heartfelt beads which in turn are in principle the same thing as Exquisicat. I can speak only for myself, when I say that I don't have any affiliation with any of our esteemed vendors. And I believe this is the same for Scott. I (and probably he) am just interested in finding a solution that works reliably and efficiently. The next thing to worry about is price.
As far as the puckifier is concerned, it is just a perforated container filled with beads. In its function it is just the same thing as any other ordinary sponge container where the sponge has been replaced with beads. I have done that to all my sponge humidifiers, by the way.

So far I am quite pleased with the kitty litter. For me they are predictable and accurate enough and I don't have to charge them in a complicated manner to avoid bursting. I can just spray them. Though, IIRC, Mark from cigarmony has once said that it is ok to spray the beads, too.

I am ready to try the same experiment I am doing now with the beads and to follow any set-up or charge instructions that Scott might kindly provide. From what it seems like, the expected result is that the beads hold humidity more stable and recover quicker and that I need to use less. We will see that in the numbers when I get to that point.

I would also like to do the tupperware direct comparison as someone intelligently proposed (sorry, I don't remember who or I would give credit). This would involve to identical containers with a calibrated hygro in each. One would hold conditioned beads and the other would hold four times the weight in conditioned kitty litter. Just to test the proportion claim it would be nice to have a third container with the equal KL weight.
We would look for steadiness and quick recovery as well as an accurate humidity target point.

Perhaps, Scott, if you find some time, you might want to do that since you have all the different products at hand. I currently have no multiple identical tupperware boxes and I only have the KL.

Or anyone else with both silica products, two or three containers and hygros could do it.

So for me, it is not a question of trying to prove or disprove the values of a given product no matter who sells it. It is a question of laying out clear results that can help my fellow BOTLs and SOTLs make a decision. The tests are not conducted in a lab environment with a protocol but in a real world application with a certain rigor. This can be seen as an unscientific result but it gets closer to the real way we would handle things and thus might be seen as a better representation of each products performance.

If the KL continues to perform as it does, I know I will not get any cigar beads because it would not be worth 15 times the price for me even if the absolute expense is not huge. This is a personal decision and I have been less price conscious in other things. Don't ask me for my speaker cables for instance. 

I hope this sets the record straight regarding my motives instead of starting a huge cat fight of vendor supporters.

Till


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## gvarsity (Dec 12, 2006)

facinating simply facinating. Never will I have the patience to go through all the iterations you did but I find your results well facinating. I can't wait to see where this goes.


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## tfar (Dec 27, 2007)

gvarsity said:


> facinating simply facinating. Never will I have the patience to go through all the iterations you did but I find your results well facinating. I can't wait to see where this goes.


Well, thanks. Scott (shilala) laid all the groundwork and inspired me to do this test. He even offered to send me some RH beads so could try them, too. I said, I would take him up on it but wanted to conduct at least two weeks of testing with what I have. We can go from there.

Till


----------



## nozero (Jul 7, 2007)

tfar said:


> If the KL continues to perform as it does, I know I will not get any cigar beads because it would not be worth 15 times the price for me even if the absolute expense is not huge. This is a personal decision and I have been less price conscious in other things. Don't ask me for my speaker cables for instance.
> 
> I hope this sets the record straight regarding my motives instead of starting a huge cat fight of vendor supporters.
> 
> Till


Yes, in Texas too. This weather has been something to experience eh?

Not a monster cable guy are ya?

I didn't mean to question your motives kind sir. Sorry if I gave that impression. I just wanted to toss a plug for the Puck in the mix.


----------



## tfar (Dec 27, 2007)

nozero said:


> Yes, in Texas too. This weather has been something to experience eh?
> 
> Not a monster cable guy are ya?
> 
> I didn't mean to question your motives kind sir. Sorry if I gave that impression. I just wanted to toss a plug for the Puck in the mix.


AudioQuest Sterling and Supra wires. Would I do it again? Probably not. But at the time I was young and foolish and I got them for a third of MRSP but that was still pure craziness. :mn

Nah, I didn't feel questioned but wanted to set it clear at this occasion because I know how strongly some feel on those issues.

I know Texas is big but if you are anywhere near Austin, join us for a herf one day.

Till


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## tfar (Dec 27, 2007)

update March 7

2/29

72 71 this is after replenishing

3/01

71 70 at 9:40pm
72 71 at 110pm

3/02

71 71 at 11:45am before opening - after opening 3min it was 68 up and 69 down
70 71 at 12:45pm just took an hour or less to recover
69 71 at 6:00pm
62 71 at 11:45pm here we see a strange drop in the upper smaller part, while lower part stays super stable.

3/03 69 73 at 2:45am
71 75 at 9:05am It was raining heavily here.
71 75 at 2:00pm
71 75 at 50pm
72 75 at 80pm just before opening
68 74 at 82pm after closing the door
71 74 at 9:00pm recovered within 40 minutes
71 74 at 11:50pm

3/04

70 73 at 0:55am
70 71 at 12:30pm the weather today was sunny and relatively warm/dry
70 70 at 3:30pm
69 71 at 6:00pm
69 71 at 7:30pm
70 70 at 11:50pm

3/05

68 70 at 11:50am weather today looks like it's gonna be like yesterday
68 71 at 3:00pm
67 71 at 8:45pm
66 71 at 11:50pm

3/06

67 72 at 3:00am It was raining all night and most of the day but it is cold.
68 71 at 11:50am
68 71 at 2:50pm
69 71 at 5:40pm opened for 30 seconds
67 70 at 9:30pm
67 70 at 11:50pm

3/07

67 70 at 12:05pm
68 70 at 2:35pm
67 70 at 4:30pm
67 69 at 7:15pm
68 70 at 9:15pm
67 70 at 11:50pm

Very uneventful day in terms of humidity. I have a huge urge to put my new remote hygrometer into one of the boxes but I will wait until Sunday when I need to open the humi anyway.

Till


----------



## tfar (Dec 27, 2007)

Update March 9

2/29

72 71 this is after replenishing

3/01

71 70 at 9:40pm
72 71 at 110pm

3/02

71 71 at 11:45am before opening - after opening 3min it was 68 up and 69 down
70 71 at 12:45pm just took an hour or less to recover
69 71 at 6:00pm
62 71 at 11:45pm here we see a strange drop in the upper smaller part, while lower part stays super stable.

3/03 69 73 at 2:45am
71 75 at 9:05am It was raining heavily here.
71 75 at 2:00pm
71 75 at 50pm
72 75 at 80pm just before opening
68 74 at 82pm after closing the door
71 74 at 9:00pm recovered within 40 minutes
71 74 at 11:50pm

3/04

70 73 at 0:55am
70 71 at 12:30pm the weather today was sunny and relatively warm/dry
70 70 at 3:30pm
69 71 at 6:00pm
69 71 at 7:30pm
70 70 at 11:50pm

3/05

68 70 at 11:50am weather today looks like it's gonna be like yesterday
68 71 at 3:00pm
67 71 at 8:45pm
66 71 at 11:50pm

3/06

67 72 at 3:00am It was raining all night and most of the day but it is cold.
68 71 at 11:50am
68 71 at 2:50pm
69 71 at 5:40pm opened for 30 seconds
67 70 at 9:30pm
67 70 at 11:50pm

3/07

67 70 at 12:05pm
68 70 at 2:35pm
67 70 at 4:30pm
67 69 at 7:15pm
68 70 at 9:15pm
67 70 at 11:50pm

3/08

67 69 at 10:50am
68 69 at 2:10pm
67 69 at 6:30pm
67 68 at 9:00pm
65 69 at 11:30pm

3/09

66 68 at 1:45pm
66 69 at 3:5pm
66 69 at 4:30pm
58 62 at 4:33pm after opening for three minutes
63 66 at 5:15pm
65 70 at 9:15pm
66 70 at 11:15pm

3/10

67 70 at 12:45am


You can see that recovery, once again, was quite fast. I did not replenish at all. I left the house at 5:15 so I do not have more precise data than this. Sorry. You can also see a slight downward trend but that is only logical and to be expected, as explained above.

Till


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## tfar (Dec 27, 2007)

Update 3/10

Luckily, it will be only until Friday until my test is finished. The thing is getting old.  Today it went up in humidity because it was again a rainy day. weatherchannel said 77% outside. I measured close to 60 inside.

2/29

72 71 this is after replenishing

3/01

71 70 at 9:40pm
72 71 at 110pm

3/02

71 71 at 11:45am before opening - after opening 3min it was 68 up and 69 down
70 71 at 12:45pm just took an hour or less to recover
69 71 at 6:00pm
62 71 at 11:45pm here we see a strange drop in the upper smaller part, while lower part stays super stable.

3/03 69 73 at 2:45am
71 75 at 9:05am It was raining heavily here.
71 75 at 2:00pm
71 75 at 50pm
72 75 at 80pm just before opening
68 74 at 82pm after closing the door
71 74 at 9:00pm recovered within 40 minutes
71 74 at 11:50pm

3/04

70 73 at 0:55am
70 71 at 12:30pm the weather today was sunny and relatively warm/dry
70 70 at 3:30pm
69 71 at 6:00pm
69 71 at 7:30pm
70 70 at 11:50pm

3/05

68 70 at 11:50am weather today looks like it's gonna be like yesterday
68 71 at 3:00pm
67 71 at 8:45pm
66 71 at 11:50pm

3/06

67 72 at 3:00am It was raining all night and most of the day but it is cold.
68 71 at 11:50am
68 71 at 2:50pm
69 71 at 5:40pm opened for 30 seconds
67 70 at 9:30pm
67 70 at 11:50pm

3/07

67 70 at 12:05pm
68 70 at 2:35pm
67 70 at 4:30pm
67 69 at 7:15pm
68 70 at 9:15pm
67 70 at 11:50pm

3/08

67 69 at 10:50am
68 69 at 2:10pm
67 69 at 6:30pm
67 68 at 9:00pm
65 69 at 11:30pm

3/09

66 68 at 1:45pm
66 69 at 3:5pm
66 69 at 4:30pm
58 62 at 4:33pm after opening for three minutes
63 66 at 5:15pm
65 70 at 9:15pm
66 70 at 11:15pm

3/10

67 70 at 12:45am
67 70 at 2:30am
68 70 at 1:25pm rainy day and especially pouring overnight
69 69 at 5:30pm
72 69 at 8:30pm
73 69 at 11:30pm

Till


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## tfar (Dec 27, 2007)

Update 3/11

There was a little spike in humidity. The only reason I can figure for this spike is that I put a humidif in there that I had sprayed with water. The humidif is a cigar case made of cedar that also includes a small sponge humidifier. This in conjunction with the rain might have caused the humidity to go up.


2/29

72 71 this is after replenishing

3/01

71 70 at 9:40pm
72 71 at 110pm

3/02

71 71 at 11:45am before opening - after opening 3min it was 68 up and 69 down
70 71 at 12:45pm just took an hour or less to recover
69 71 at 6:00pm
62 71 at 11:45pm here we see a strange drop in the upper smaller part, while lower part stays super stable.

3/03 69 73 at 2:45am
71 75 at 9:05am It was raining heavily here.
71 75 at 2:00pm
71 75 at 50pm
72 75 at 80pm just before opening
68 74 at 82pm after closing the door
71 74 at 9:00pm recovered within 40 minutes
71 74 at 11:50pm

3/04

70 73 at 0:55am
70 71 at 12:30pm the weather today was sunny and relatively warm/dry
70 70 at 3:30pm
69 71 at 6:00pm
69 71 at 7:30pm
70 70 at 11:50pm

3/05

68 70 at 11:50am weather today looks like it's gonna be like yesterday
68 71 at 3:00pm
67 71 at 8:45pm
66 71 at 11:50pm

3/06

67 72 at 3:00am It was raining all night and most of the day but it is cold.
68 71 at 11:50am
68 71 at 2:50pm
69 71 at 5:40pm opened for 30 seconds
67 70 at 9:30pm
67 70 at 11:50pm

3/07

67 70 at 12:05pm
68 70 at 2:35pm
67 70 at 4:30pm
67 69 at 7:15pm
68 70 at 9:15pm
67 70 at 11:50pm

3/08

67 69 at 10:50am
68 69 at 2:10pm
67 69 at 6:30pm
67 68 at 9:00pm
65 69 at 11:30pm

3/09

66 68 at 1:45pm
66 69 at 3:5pm
66 69 at 4:30pm
58 62 at 4:33pm after opening for three minutes
63 66 at 5:15pm
65 70 at 9:15pm
66 70 at 11:15pm

3/10

67 70 at 12:45am
67 70 at 2:30am
68 70 at 15pm rainy day and especially pouring overnight
69 69 at 5:30pm
72 69 at 8:30pm
73 69 at 11:30pm

3/11

74 70 at 11:30am 
72 70 at 9:12PM
72 70 at 11:15pm

3/12

72 70 at 1:15pm
70 70 at 3:00pm


----------



## tzaddi (Feb 24, 2007)

*Till, it is good to see that you are remaining true to the thread's title.*


----------



## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

tzaddi said:


> *Till, it is good to see that you are remaining true to the thread's title.*


Till don't mess around. :tu


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## tfar (Dec 27, 2007)

tzaddi said:


> *Till, it is good to see that you are remaining true to the thread's title.*





shilala said:


> Till don't mess around. :tu


Yours truthfully and boring,

Till 

Things are really stable here. BTW.


----------



## tfar (Dec 27, 2007)

Update 3/12


2/29

72 71 this is after replenishing

3/01

71 70 at 9:40pm
72 71 at 110pm

3/02

71 71 at 11:45am before opening - after opening 3min it was 68 up and 69 down
70 71 at 12:45pm just took an hour or less to recover
69 71 at 6:00pm
62 71 at 11:45pm here we see a strange drop in the upper smaller part, while lower part stays super stable.

3/03 69 73 at 2:45am
71 75 at 9:05am It was raining heavily here.
71 75 at 2:00pm
71 75 at 50pm
72 75 at 80pm just before opening
68 74 at 82pm after closing the door
71 74 at 9:00pm recovered within 40 minutes
71 74 at 11:50pm

3/04

70 73 at 0:55am
70 71 at 12:30pm the weather today was sunny and relatively warm/dry
70 70 at 3:30pm
69 71 at 6:00pm
69 71 at 7:30pm
70 70 at 11:50pm

3/05

68 70 at 11:50am weather today looks like it's gonna be like yesterday
68 71 at 3:00pm
67 71 at 8:45pm
66 71 at 11:50pm

3/06

67 72 at 3:00am It was raining all night and most of the day but it is cold.
68 71 at 11:50am
68 71 at 2:50pm
69 71 at 5:40pm opened for 30 seconds
67 70 at 9:30pm
67 70 at 11:50pm

3/07

67 70 at 12:05pm
68 70 at 2:35pm
67 70 at 4:30pm
67 69 at 7:15pm
68 70 at 9:15pm
67 70 at 11:50pm

3/08

67 69 at 10:50am
68 69 at 2:10pm
67 69 at 6:30pm
67 68 at 9:00pm
65 69 at 11:30pm

3/09

66 68 at 1:45pm
66 69 at 3:5pm
66 69 at 4:30pm
58 62 at 4:33pm after opening for three minutes
63 66 at 5:15pm
65 70 at 9:15pm
66 70 at 11:15pm

3/10

67 70 at 12:45am
67 70 at 2:30am
68 70 at 15pm rainy day and especially pouring overnight
69 69 at 5:30pm
72 69 at 8:30pm
73 69 at 11:30pm

3/11

74 70 at 11:30am
72 70 at 9:12PM
72 70 at 11:15pm

3/12

72 70 at 1:15pm
70 70 at 3:00pm
70 70 at 6:05pm
69 70 at 11:30pm

3/13

70 71 at 1:00pm
70 71 at 2:30pm It is damp and humid in Austin today in room humidity 63/64


One more day, guys! :chk

Till


----------



## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

Hey Till,
I never did ask. What's your target RH%age?
I'm conditioning a whole bunch of RHbeads right now and I'm not sure what you're shooting for.


----------



## tfar (Dec 27, 2007)

I am shooting for high 60s. I like them a bit on the wetter side because basically with the small amounts I am smoking it is longterm storage and I like to keep a little margin for when I forget to tend to them.

What is amazing is that right now they are hovering around 70 while somedays ago they were in the high 60 range. Still the maximum deviation was basically 7 points and that was after opening when it had not fully recovered yet.

So if you condition some for me put them anywhere between 65 and 70, whatever works best for you with the least trouble or whatever humidity point you feel like exploring.

Till


----------



## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

tfar said:


> I am shooting for high 60s. I like them a bit on the wetter side because basically with the small amounts I am smoking it is longterm storage and I like to keep a little margin for when I forget to tend to them.
> 
> What is amazing is that right now they are hovering around 70 while somedays ago they were in the high 60 range. Still the maximum deviation was basically 7 points and that was after opening when it had not fully recovered yet.
> 
> ...


I'll condition them to around 65%.
When you put them in your vino it'll take about a week for them to come to equilibrium with your vino's contents.
Wherever it lands, that should be a pretty good indicator of your net aggregate RH%, being as your contents hold a far greater amount of water than the beads.
I haven't decided on bags or sticks yet.
How are your beads arranged? That way maybe I can simulate it and then we'd be looking at apples to apples, ya know?


----------



## tfar (Dec 27, 2007)

Hi Scott, 65% sounds good. My current state is 70% very stable since yesterday. It seems it took altogether three weeks to reach that point.

I have two knee high nylons in the upper compartment. one on the left and one on the right side of the cigar boxes.

I have just rearranged the lower compartment. Maybe that has to do something with more stable humidity, too. Before I had to knee highs in an aluminum dish in there. Now I have taken the pearls from the two socks and distributed them over four socks. This allows me to spread them out more. They know cover the entire floor of the lower compartment in a layer that is about half an inch thick. They are simply held in place by the wood shelf. This way I was able to gain about two inches of space by eliminating the alu pan.

I'll take a photo for you. I just need to take out the boxes. No big deal. It will influence the readings a bit but at this point the bulk of the data is there.



So probably anything flat enough to go under the wooden shelf will do.

Till


----------



## tfar (Dec 27, 2007)

Update 3/14


2/29

72 71 this is after replenishing

3/01

71 70 at 9:40pm
72 71 at 110pm

3/02

71 71 at 11:45am before opening - after opening 3min it was 68 up and 69 down
70 71 at 12:45pm just took an hour or less to recover
69 71 at 6:00pm
62 71 at 11:45pm here we see a strange drop in the upper smaller part, while lower part stays super stable.

3/03 69 73 at 2:45am
71 75 at 9:05am It was raining heavily here.
71 75 at 2:00pm
71 75 at 50pm
72 75 at 80pm just before opening
68 74 at 82pm after closing the door
71 74 at 9:00pm recovered within 40 minutes
71 74 at 11:50pm

3/04

70 73 at 0:55am
70 71 at 12:30pm the weather today was sunny and relatively warm/dry
70 70 at 3:30pm
69 71 at 6:00pm
69 71 at 7:30pm
70 70 at 11:50pm

3/05

68 70 at 11:50am weather today looks like it's gonna be like yesterday
68 71 at 3:00pm
67 71 at 8:45pm
66 71 at 11:50pm

3/06

67 72 at 3:00am It was raining all night and most of the day but it is cold.
68 71 at 11:50am
68 71 at 2:50pm
69 71 at 5:40pm opened for 30 seconds
67 70 at 9:30pm
67 70 at 11:50pm

3/07

67 70 at 12:05pm
68 70 at 2:35pm
67 70 at 4:30pm
67 69 at 7:15pm
68 70 at 9:15pm
67 70 at 11:50pm

3/08

67 69 at 10:50am
68 69 at 2:10pm
67 69 at 6:30pm
67 68 at 9:00pm
65 69 at 11:30pm

3/09

66 68 at 1:45pm
66 69 at 3:5pm
66 69 at 4:30pm
58 62 at 4:33pm after opening for three minutes
63 66 at 5:15pm
65 70 at 9:15pm
66 70 at 11:15pm

3/10

67 70 at 12:45am
67 70 at 2:30am
68 70 at 15pm rainy day and especially pouring overnight
69 69 at 5:30pm
72 69 at 8:30pm
73 69 at 11:30pm

3/11

74 70 at 11:30am
72 70 at 9:12PM
72 70 at 11:15pm

3/12

72 70 at 1:15pm
70 70 at 3:00pm
70 70 at 6:05pm
69 70 at 11:30pm

3/13

70 71 at 1:00pm
70 71 at 2:30pm It is damp and humid in Austin today in room humidity 63/64
70 71 at 6:30pm
70 70 at 11:30pm

3/14

70 70 at 11:00am 

it looks like we reached an equilibrium here. I just had to open the vino and take the boxes out to take the photo above but I will take another reading around 3pm.

Till


----------



## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

Till, I'm sending just better than twice the amount of RHbeadsticks to do the job in your vino. When you see the difference in volume, you'll flip.
I'm excited to see the difference in how they work.
I'll tweak the beads the rest of the day and try to get them up a little closer to 70%.
They'll go out with the mail tomorrow provided I get them finished.


----------



## tfar (Dec 27, 2007)

Ok, thanks. But please keep in mind that I want to test the KL in terms of longevity a little more. So I would like to keep it in there for two or three more weeks to see how long it will last before I need to replenish. Will it be better you keep the beads until I am ready to use them or shall I run a test of beads versus KL in ziplock bags in the meantime? I am also out of town from APril 13 to May 9, so I cannot do any readings then. Just telling you right now, so you are not frustrated if I cannot report test results right away. 

Till


----------



## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

tfar said:


> Ok, thanks. But please keep in mind that I want to test the KL in terms of longevity a little more. So I would like to keep it in there for two or three more weeks to see how long it will last before I need to replenish. Will it be better you keep the beads until I am ready to use them or shall I run a test of beads versus KL in ziplock bags in the meantime? I am also out of town from APril 13 to May 9, so I cannot do any readings then. Just telling you right now, so you are not frustrated if I cannot report test results right away.
> 
> Till


You can do it however you like in your own sweet time.
I doubt that you're ever going to have to add water to the KL beads.
There's such a resevoir there it's unlikely that you'll ever use it up.
The problem with KLbeads is that they are very poor at transferring water vapor. That's what showed up in my tests and that's what has showed up in your tests.
Your numbers climbed slowly over a lot of days.
RHbeads will respond much quicker and MHbeads respond even quicker yet.
If only there was a hybrid that did everything well.
Hmm, if I didn't just get a kickin' idea. 
You make me have ideas, Till. I like that about you.  Richard does that to me too. It's good to have like minded guys to discuss this stuff with.
I'm going to go create a two compartment hybrid beadwanger bag as soon as I get all this other stuff done that's in front of me.


----------



## tfar (Dec 27, 2007)

I am glad I can inspire you new ideas. You encourage me to go to the bottom of things. So we are even. :tu

There are a few folks I read about who actually use both beads and KL in their humidors or whatever device they are using as such. They say it works great for them. For better refill management it would probably still be a good idea to keep them in separate bags that are marked for contents.

Till


----------



## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

tfar said:


> I am glad I can inspire you new ideas. You encourage me to go to the bottom of things. So we are even. :tu
> 
> There are a few folks I read about who actually use both beads and KL in their humidors or whatever device they are using as such. They say it works great for them. For better refill management it would probably still be a good idea to keep them in separate bags that are marked for contents.
> 
> Till


Kitty Litter is an excellent resevoir. That's the one thing that it's good for.
It holds a ton of water that can be made available to the beads.
In a very dry climate or in places with long winters or in places where the air conditioning keeps the ambient humidity very low, Kitty Litter can be of huge advantage.
It will give up it's resevoir of water very slowly and steadily while the RHbeads do the rapid work of adjusting the humidity level in the humidor.
It would be absolutely imperitive to condition the beads identically otherwise the beads with greater affinity and less water holding ability would assume the RH level of the Kitty Litter (eventually).
That's not necessarily a bad thing, but if I throw 65% chemically treated "set-point" beads in a vino with KL that's set at 70%, I just wasted a LOT of money because the 65% beads will do absolutely nothing.


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## ChasDen (Dec 12, 2007)

shilala said:


> Kitty Litter is an excellent resevoir. That's the one thing that it's good for.
> It holds a ton of water that can be made available to the beads.
> In a very dry climate or in places with long winters or in places where the air conditioning keeps the ambient humidity very low, Kitty Litter can be of huge advantage.


 That's exactly my problem. I live in the northeast, long cold winters. All electric house with a forced air geothermal furnace. Great energy savings and I do not have a gas bill, but the house is Dry - Dry - Dry !! Right now after raining for 2 days, inside RH is 28%. Every time I opened a humidor in this house there was a sucking sound of all the moisture escaping. I was charging my beads like every week or 10 days. I have double the amount recommended but they were just starved for moisture. I added a small container of the KL beads to each humidor just over 2 weeks ago and the RH has rebounded quickly every time I open the humidors and I have not had to recharge the beads yet.

They look the same as they did 2 weeks ago.

Chas


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## tfar (Dec 27, 2007)

Chas, thanks for the post. It's nice to hear some people here got geothermal heating. They are getting into that big time now in Germany. Sounds like a really good solution. I think they combine it with a central water heating system and put the radiators in the floors.

Anyways, glad the KL plus beads is doing the trick for you.

Till


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## ChasDen (Dec 12, 2007)

tfar said:


> Chas, thanks for the post. It's nice to hear some people here got geothermal heating. They are getting into that big time now in Germany. Sounds like a really good solution. I think they combine it with a central water heating system and put the radiators in the floors.
> 
> Anyways, glad the KL plus beads is doing the trick for you.
> 
> Till


All electric, No gas. I live 30 minutes from lake Erie so last month was cold! Last months electric bill was just over $125.00. I have a wife that takes 25 minute showers, a daughter that runs it until she runs out of hot water, at any given time there are at least 3 Tv's, 2 computers, and every frigging light on in this house. My wife spends all day Sunday doing laundry and at least all of Monday night catching up on what she did not get done Sunday. Every time I complain about everything being on they tell me all we hear you say is how cheap it is here.

The best thing is I paid $0 for it. It was here when I moved in 

Resistance is futile when your the only male in the house. 

Chas


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## tfar (Dec 27, 2007)

ChasDen said:


> All electric, No gas. I live 30 minutes from lake Erie so last month was cold! Last months electric bill was just over $125.00. I have a wife that takes 25 minute showers, a daughter that runs it until she runs out of hot water, at any given time there are at least 3 Tv's, 2 computers, and every frigging light on in this house. My wife spends all day Sunday doing laundry and at least all of Monday night catching up on what she did not get done Sunday. Every time I complain about everything being on they tell me all we hear you say is how cheap it is here.
> 
> The best thing is I paid $0 for it. It was here when I moved in
> 
> ...


BIG OT:

Well, it could be worse. I know guys who are married and have three daughters. :r

Yeah, the geothermal thing is great. It is not possible in every region but I am glad to know people are moving in the right direction. I mean, look at it, you actually consume not less than before but there is no damage to the environment and it costs less.

Here in Texas we have to run the AC for at least six months (electricity) and the heating for two or three months (gas). But surprisingly few people have solar panels on their roofs. C'mon we got 300 days of sunshine here in Austin per year. The subsidy program they offer is actually one of the best in the country. The reason I didn't do it is that it was still quite expensive and wouldn't have paid off in the relatively short time I knew i'd be in this house. Otherwise I would have jumped on it from day one.

If you are somewhere where you can get geothermal plus solar and you build an energy efficient house, you're a made man.

Take care,

Till


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## tfar (Dec 27, 2007)

2/29

72 71 this is after replenishing

3/01

71 70 at 9:40pm
72 71 at 110pm

3/02

71 71 at 11:45am before opening - after opening 3min it was 68 up and 69 down
70 71 at 12:45pm just took an hour or less to recover
69 71 at 6:00pm
62 71 at 11:45pm here we see a strange drop in the upper smaller part, while lower part stays super stable.

3/03 69 73 at 2:45am
71 75 at 9:05am It was raining heavily here.
71 75 at 2:00pm
71 75 at 50pm
72 75 at 80pm just before opening
68 74 at 82pm after closing the door
71 74 at 9:00pm recovered within 40 minutes
71 74 at 11:50pm

3/04

70 73 at 0:55am
70 71 at 12:30pm the weather today was sunny and relatively warm/dry
70 70 at 3:30pm
69 71 at 6:00pm
69 71 at 7:30pm
70 70 at 11:50pm

3/05

68 70 at 11:50am weather today looks like it's gonna be like yesterday
68 71 at 3:00pm
67 71 at 8:45pm
66 71 at 11:50pm

3/06

67 72 at 3:00am It was raining all night and most of the day but it is cold.
68 71 at 11:50am
68 71 at 2:50pm
69 71 at 5:40pm opened for 30 seconds
67 70 at 9:30pm
67 70 at 11:50pm

3/07

67 70 at 12:05pm
68 70 at 2:35pm
67 70 at 4:30pm
67 69 at 7:15pm
68 70 at 9:15pm
67 70 at 11:50pm

3/08

67 69 at 10:50am
68 69 at 2:10pm
67 69 at 6:30pm
67 68 at 9:00pm
65 69 at 11:30pm

3/09

66 68 at 1:45pm
66 69 at 3:5pm
66 69 at 4:30pm
58 62 at 4:33pm after opening for three minutes
63 66 at 5:15pm
65 70 at 9:15pm
66 70 at 11:15pm

3/10

67 70 at 12:45am
67 70 at 2:30am
68 70 at 15pm rainy day and especially pouring overnight
69 69 at 5:30pm
72 69 at 8:30pm
73 69 at 11:30pm

3/11

74 70 at 11:30am
72 70 at 9:12PM
72 70 at 11:15pm

3/12

72 70 at 1:15pm
70 70 at 3:00pm
70 70 at 6:05pm
69 70 at 11:30pm

3/13

70 71 at 1:00pm
70 71 at 2:30pm It is damp and humid in Austin today in room humidity 63/64
70 71 at 6:30pm
70 70 at 11:30pm

3/14

70 70 at 11:00am 
70 68 at 3:00pm 
69 69 at 6:45pm
70 69 at 11:50pm

They recovered rather quickly after opening and taking the cigars out of the lower compartment to take the pic for Scott. 3/14 was a sunny and dry day, too, very warm at 93 outside.

Today they are at 70 in the upper and 70 in the lower with a temp of around 68F.

Till


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