# Lieberman machine = hand rolled ?



## z0diac (May 18, 2010)

Question: If a roller uses a lieberman machine, is it still considered a 'hand rolled' cigar? I'm guessing not, since it's machine rolled.

Also - does anyone know which brands use plastic molds after rolling vs. wooden ones? Being a traditionalist in many different aspects, I'd prefer cigars that use wooden molds. When I'm paying top dollar for a stogie I want to know that it's made the traditional way.

I saw a video of a manufacturer making 'premium cigars' and saw them stick it into a lieberman rolling machine, then stick it into a plastic mold after, and was completely turned off. A lot of the reason I've paid high prices for cigars is to get ones made the traditional way, with an expert's hands to roll and those nice worked-in, stained, wooden molds. I'll be completely turned off premium stogies if I find out the majority are rolled on a machine, then stuck in a stack of 5c Chinese-manufactured plastic molds. :ask:

The reasoning for using a plastic mold over wood was utter BS too. Saying that "plastic didn't expand and contract due to humidity levels the way wood does". Gimme a freekin break. If the guy thinks a thick wooden mold is going to expand or contract enough to make a measurable difference, he' smoking more than just stogies.


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## kenelbow (Jan 14, 2010)

Hmm, so is this what you are talking about (second video down)? Personally it looks like the guy is still rolling by hand but is just using a surface that makes the actual rolling easier. Not sure how I feel about this personally. Part of me thinks that as long as its using longfiller leaves and actually rolled by a person and not in an automated process then its okay. On the other hand I can see the charm in having a cigar that was rolled by someone with years of experience and sure hands.

If however, this is what we are talking about, then it seems less impressive.


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## fiddlegrin (Feb 8, 2009)

That is what is known as "machine" bunching.

There are several other styles of bunching which are done by hand.
If we look up specific gars in an Cigar Encyclopedia, one of the things we can learn is if it was machine bunched or not.
After the "bunching", "pressing", "rotating" and additional pressing occurs, they will still typically be wrapped and rolled by hand...

Hence the designation of "Handrolled" as opposed to; "Handmade".

With the "Handmade", all facets/ steps in the contruction of the Gar are done by hand...



(The following quotes are from Tobacconist University)

"Entubado Bunch (Entubar)


This is the bunching technique which rolls each filler leaf into itself, almost like a small scroll. Each individually “scrolled” leaf is then placed together to form the bunch. This skillful rolling technique creates a more firmly packed cigar which allows air to travel between all of the leaves, carrying more aromatics/flavors to the palate. Entubado rolling is the most difficult and complex bunching method and is therefore rarely employed in large scale manufacturing. 


Accordion Bunch

This bunching technique involves folding the outer sides of the filler leaves inward, one at a time, and placing the leaves on top of each other until the bunch is complete: then the leaves are rolled together with a binder leaf. The "folds" created by this technique allow excellent air passage through the cigar. If you dissect an accordion rolled cigar, the leaves will separate much like an accordion moves in and out. Accordion rolling takes more skill and time to execute than book rolling, but is not quite as technically sophisticated as entubado rolling. 


An alternative to entubado or accordion rolling, booking involves laying filler leaves flatly on top of one another and then folding them up, like a book or taco, to complete the bunch. This technique is simpler than entubado and accordion rolling and creates a less aerated cigar structure: placing the leaves directly on top of each other does not allow as much air to pass through each individual leaf in the cigar. The advantage of book rolling is that it is quicker and more efficient from a manufacturing perspective. This is probably the most popular technique for making premium cigars today. 


Lieberman Bunch (Machine Bunching Technique)

This bunching technique involves laying the binder and filler leaves on a canvas which is rolls them up mechanically. While the Lieberman machine/rolling technique uses a mechanical aid, they are hand assisted and cigars bunched by it are still considered premium products. 



Figurado / Hybrid Bunch

Shaped cigars such as torpedos and perfectos typically use a hybrid bunching technique. The tapering or bulging of the cigar requires extra skill and care when bunching occurs: a single misplaced leaf can easily plug a shaped cigar."


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## Benaj85 (Feb 5, 2010)

Lieberman Bunch (Machine Bunching Technique)
This bunching technique involves laying the binder and filler leaves on a canvas which is rolls them up mechanically. While the Lieberman machine/rolling technique uses a mechanical aid, they are hand assisted and cigars bunched by it are still considered premium products.

Tobacconist University : Tobacco College : Cigars : Cigar Rolling


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## z0diac (May 18, 2010)

kenelbow said:


> Hmm, so is this what you are talking about (second video down)? Personally it looks like the guy is still rolling by hand but is just using a surface that makes the actual rolling easier. Not sure how I feel about this personally. Part of me thinks that as long as its using longfiller leaves and actually rolled by a person and not in an automated process then its okay. * On the other hand I can see the charm in having a cigar that was rolled by someone with years of experience and sure hands.*


Yes that's my feelings exactly. I know it produces a cigar with the exact same flavor, but it's just knowing that it was done completely by hand, using old wooden molds and presses, that attracts me to it. I'm sure a lot of people are reading this talking to their screens saying "cmon man - wtf is the difference!?" but to me it's an important criteria.


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## z0diac (May 18, 2010)

re:



> This bunching technique involves laying the binder and filler leaves on a canvas which is rolls them up mechanically. While the Lieberman machine/rolling technique uses a mechanical aid, they are hand assisted and cigars bunched by it are still considered premium products.


I wonder if there's any list/chart out there that lists which products are rolled using a machine and which ones are 100% hand rolled?

To me a machine rolling up the bunches is machine-rolled, whether it runs on a human cranking it or a 120V electrical plug. Now, I won't go so far as saying well the tobacco has to also be pulled on carts by a horse after it's picked, and they have to use candlelight instead of electrical lighting in their factories, etc.. but when it comes to the hands-on process of creating a cigar, I want hands-on, not machines. Again, this is just my personal preference and I don't mean to offend anyone who can't see the difference since the end product is still the same.


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## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

z0diac said:


> re:
> 
> I wonder if there's any list/chart out there that lists which products are rolled using a machine and which ones are 100% hand rolled?


EXPERIENCE, mate, EXPERIENCE. That is what will allow you to discern the difference.  :smoke2:


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## z0diac (May 18, 2010)

Herf N Turf said:


> EXPERIENCE, mate, EXPERIENCE. That is what will allow you to discern the difference.  :smoke2:


You mean you could actually tell if the filler and binder leaves had been put together using a lieberman roller instead of hand-done ??? :ask:


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## Breakaway500 (May 7, 2010)

Interesting videos and discussion. I never knew there were so many techniques. 

To me,a machine rolled cigar is automated,an assembly line.A factory. It involves NO human intervention other than supplying raw material. 

Hand made is an individual performing all the stages of the assembly with his (or her) hands and skills,using simple hand tools. Choosing the parts to put together,and being able to say one individual constructed the entire finished item. (other than actually growing the raw material.)

The finished products quality and reputation is the best measure of the care that goes into their construction by either method. .


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## Mante (Dec 25, 2009)

fiddlegrin said:


> That is what is known as "machine" bunching.
> 
> There are several other styles of bunching which are done by hand.
> If we look up specific gars in an Cigar Encyclopedia, one of the things we can learn is if it was machine bunched or not.
> ...


Since everybody has overlooked your post effort and nobody has said it yet I will, thanks for the great info Phil! :mrgreen:


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## z0diac (May 18, 2010)

Tashaz said:


> Since everybody has overlooked your post effort and nobody has said it yet I will, thanks for the great info Phil! :mrgreen:


Yes, an excellent explanation!!

Now, how do we find out what cigars are hand rolled as opposed to only "hand made" ??


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## grumpy1328 (May 9, 2010)

Very interesting thread. Learned a lot today. Great post.


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## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

My favorite part of that video is the beginning where the woman screws up that wrapper and looks up to see if the supervisor caught it! Priceless!


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## z0diac (May 18, 2010)

I hope it's ok to post a link to a video done by a guy of another site, but this guy has some very educational videos on the whole process: YouTube - Making a Cigar (click on the link to his videos - there's a whole series on the construction, quality control, etc..) Very informative.


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