# Fakes??



## hollywood (Feb 15, 2005)

Ok,

Here's the deal. Don't know where to start, but gotta go somewhere. I have a couple San Christobal cigars that i recieved on a pass through another forum(cigar.com). I sent one of these out on the All ISOM Pif. The recipient had another member PM me to tell me it is fake. I have since disected the suspected sticks, and posted pics. I researched the vitolas in the San Christobal line and found mine the right ring guage, but its was about 5/8th in short in length from the listed size for the La Fuenza. The construction was not what I expected a fake to look like. All long leaf with no stems or short filler whatsoever. I even cut up a few other KNOWN legit stick to compare contruction. Not much difference. The suspected stick was said to taste sour? So i had to light one up to see again. Started a bit green, but quickly turned very smooth with a lot of flavor. Had earthy tones and the flavor expected from a good isom.

Mr.C.; whom called me this evening to talk about this situation, has already told a few others that I'm handing out fakes; and has told them to exclude them from the ISOM pif going on now. That's fine until we get this squared away. However, I have not heard a single work from the BOTL that recieved my other pifs, that would indicate dissatisfaction. If you are, PLEASE, tell me!
I do not want anybody else to think that this would happen intentionally or is rampant throughout my HUMI!!

I have a call out to anyone and everyone in the know here to lend a hand to get this figured out! This truely sucks, as I fell both the betrayed and the betrayer!! Anybody care to give a BOTL some advise!?!?!

Thanks again,
Dave


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## coppertop (Dec 29, 2003)

hollywood said:


> Ok,
> 
> Here's the deal. Don't know where to start, but gotta go somewhere. I have a couple San Christobal cigars that i recieved on a pass through another forum(cigar.com). I sent one of these out on the All ISOM Pif. The recipient had another member PM me to tell me it is fake. I have since disected the suspected sticks, and posted pics. I researched the vitolas in the San Christobal line and found mine the right ring guage, but its was about 5/8th in short in length from the listed size for the La Fuenza. The construction was not what I expected a fake to look like. All long leaf with no stems or short filler whatsoever. I even cut up a few other KNOWN legit stick to compare contruction. Not much difference. The suspected stick was said to taste sour? So i had to light one up to see again. Started a bit green, but quickly turned very smooth with a lot of flavor. Had earthy tones and the flavor expected from a good isom.
> 
> ...


Dave.....my advice to you would be to check out (909) post about the fake cubans he bought off of a customer of his. Here is the link

(909)

Plus fakes can be well done, with long filler and triple cap. But someone with more expertise at this then me needs to chime in. To *ME* they look fake.


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## pinoyman (Jan 28, 2005)

Amigo I'm not one of the LLG yet but I know how you feel with the situation.
I guess, as long as your concscience is clean and you know that you will not do such thing, then do what you have to do. I'm sure the big boys will understand and they will check this problem.
Get a cigar and smoke one Amigo.


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## horrorview (Jan 27, 2005)

Hey Dave!

My taste buds are pretty useless, as I'm a complete noob to the ISOM. While I didn't like a couple of sticks, I'm not qualified to judge them as real or fake. If, in fact, they weren't the real deal, I'm pretty damned sure that you didn't know it!!

On a side note; I hate being embroiled in controversy. :r


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## GOAT LOCKER (Aug 7, 2004)

Hey, fakes happen. When you deal with unkbown sources, the likelyhood is high. The pic looks more like a 42 ring, probably a PC. I'm sure a lot of people buying from internet sources (or Yahoo Auctions :r )are getting fakes and don't know the difference. If this was the only fake in the bunch, I don't see a big problem, but you may want to take a good look at your stash to filter out any other questionable cigars.


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## hollywood (Feb 15, 2005)

GOAT LOCKER said:


> Hey, fakes happen. When you deal with unkbown sources, the likelyhood is high. The pic looks more like a 42 ring, probably a PC. I'm sure a lot of people buying from internet sources (or Yahoo Auctions :r )are getting fakes and don't know the difference. If this was the only fake in the bunch, I don't see a big problem, but you may want to take a good look at your stash to filter out any other questionable cigars.


I have gone through 8 others so far to measure and compare to as much info as I can dig up. So far nothing off more than 1/8" in length and all the ring guages seem to match up. Even pulled out domestics with same ring guage to compare. I haven't cut any others up yet, but don't want to go cutting away if I don't know exactly what to look for! If anybody knows MocoBird or MoTheMan, contact them please! I need a couple of LLGs here!!! Hell, I'll be more than happy to send them samples to destroy for solid proof.


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## cazadore (Jan 1, 2000)

Unfortunately, this is why I've never participated in box passes/PIFs.

What happens many, many times, especially in all-Cuban box passes, is that there are a few people who don't have enough knowledge or experience with Cuban cigars to be able to tell a real Habanos cigar from a fake. They THINK they do, but something a knowledgeable Cuban cigar smoker would just dimiss as normal for Cuban cigars throws up a red flag in their eyes.

I've seen this happen time and time again. I've also seen alot of good people have their reputations soiled out of someone else's ignorance. :sb 

Just needed to say that. Carry on.


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## IHT (Dec 27, 2003)

lol... i just got done posting in the "what am i missing" topic on the habanos forum... in there, i mentioned a cigar i sent a BOTL here to try, and he thought it was fake as well (but i sent it to him because we were discussing how bad my box was - not if it was fake or not). i know they weren't fake, they came from a top notch vendor, bought by an outstanding BOTL on here during our box splits last summer, and i've had a few that were pretty decent (but not what i thought they'd be). 
what's funny is that they were SCDLH's as well. mine were La Puntas with a box code of EAR NOV 01.

maybe they were just a bad batch??!!

also, in our 4 way box split last year, someone wanted BBFs. those had to be the worst damn bolivars i've ever had (well, i did have 2 that were damn good - unfortunately, i gave one of them to WillyGT).
so, sometimes you just get a bad box...


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## cookieboy364 (Jan 25, 2005)

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news hollywood but those are definetely fakes. I started off trying the punch and it had a very flat flavour and almost metallicy taste. I then proceded to move on to the Cohiba which left a very sour taste in my mouth. Neither of which I could even smoke an inch of. The first thing that keyed me in was that I just received a box of SC El Principe's and the one you sent was 1/2 inch longer. As far as proper sizing the fonseca should be 5 3/8 in by 42 ring. The Monte C should be 5 5/8 in by 46 ring. The SC should be 4 1/3 in by 42 ring. The monte tubo should be a much brighter yellow than the ones in your gallery. As far as the La Fuerza it is 5 1/2 in by 50 ring and this "SC" is much smaller in ring guage. I have posted related pics. With regards to the long filler, in my experience with fakes ther are some very good ones going around and just because a cigar has long filler does not indicate cuban origin. Also from what I have heard some of the best fakes come from Cuba they just dont have any quality control with the tobacco.


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## mr.c (Apr 8, 2004)

I decided to take this on, because I have a little more experince and have been on this board longer. SO since I am in this I shall post.

The monte tubo should look like this 

Not white. 

I have said all along that I beleive that you unknowingly sent these. The people that you sent these too also beleive the same.

Did your reputation take a hit ? MAybe, as well as mine may have. But its not as bad as your pride or your wallet. This is a good place with good people. Stick around and learn. 

Joe


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## coppertop (Dec 29, 2003)

mr.c said:


> I decided to take this on, because I have a little more experince and have been on this board longer. SO since I am in this I shall post.
> 
> The monte tubo should look like this
> 
> ...


Joe, first want to say your reputation is solid......your won't take a hit. Everyone here knows your a standup guy. As for hollywoods, I think he was an victim here also. I don't think anyone will hold this against him, unless he just flat out refuses to admit he unknowingly sent fakes. Just my thoughts

Oh and GOAT, just so you know. The La Punta I sent you is from the same box that IHT is talking about. I don't know, maybe this one will be good, but the ones I've had have been flat. Not nasty, just flat. Don't know....bad batch like IHT said.


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## horrorview (Jan 27, 2005)

I have no doubt that Dave's a solid guy, and I felt he was probably as confused about all of this as I was, so I had to give him a call. We spoke for a bit, and he seemed more hurt and saddened by the fact that his wares weren't being enjoyed by others than anything else. Hell, just look at the guy's photo album on this site. He's got his family, his smoking room, and his collection up there for all to see. While I am admittedly new to these kinds of forums, this just doesn't seem like the type of person who would knowingly mislead his fellow BOTLs (even a clueless noob such as myself! :al )

On the other side of the coin, I appreciate the other BOTLs coming forward with their discoveries, as I can imagine it must have been a difficult thing to do. While I am not privy to the discussions beyond the ones I was included in, I can only assume that they were handled with class and compassion. 

If the worst thing that comes out of this is a better understanding of the leaf, than it really isn't much of a tragedy at all.


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## poker (Dec 11, 1997)

Im not in the pif, but I had to chime in here.

Just a tiny bit of advise for the future (based on what I have seen & experienced over the years)...

Never place cigars you got into a pass (or sell, trade, etc for that matter) that you got from *any * secondary source. Its anyones guess as to where they were originally aquired.

Hollywood said:


> I have not heard a single work from the BOTL that recieved my other pifs, that would indicate dissatisfaction.


I dont know who the cigars were sent to, nor how much experience they have with authentic Havanas, but box pass's like this usually include some folks that may not be very familiar with what a real Havana is like, due to a lack of experience to base a fair comparison to.

Example: If someone has smoked maybe 2 Cohiba Siglo I's & a couple Montecristo No 2's in the last 4 years of his smoking experience, would he or she be a realistic accurate judge of what a real or fake should or shouldnt be like? Of course not.

But like I said, in the future just to keep it simple, dont pass trade or sell anything that you didnt aquire yourself from a trusted source. It will save a lot of frustration in the long run.


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## DonJefe (Dec 1, 2003)

horrorview said:


> If the worst thing that comes out of this is a better understanding of the leaf, than it really isn't much of a tragedy at all.


I believe that is the only motivation here. Nothing malicious at all. Well said HV!


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## SeanGAR (Jul 9, 2004)

It seems surprising me to that there are such obvious size problems with (apparently) many fake cigars. SCdH that is 5 inches? Currently 4.33 or 5.5 yes, 5.0 ??. It is almost as if they put the fake SCdH band on the fake Monte 4. If they are going through the trouble of making fakes, why screw up the single step (proper sizeing) that seems the easiest?


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## MocoBird (Sep 2, 2004)

poker said:


> But like I said, in the future just to keep it simple, dont pass trade or sell anything that you didnt aquire yourself from a trusted source. It will save a lot of frustration in the long run.


As alway.....the most excellent advise always comes from the elders. 
Thanks.....

(Elder refering to the lenght of time you have been a BOTL, not your current age.  )


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## Bruce (Dec 31, 1999)

Sound advice from Poker. This is one of the main reasons why I don't participate in PiF's and box passes, and for that matter trade for cigars.


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## coppertop (Dec 29, 2003)

horrorview said:


> I have no doubt that Dave's a solid guy, and I felt he was probably as confused about all of this as I was, so I had to give him a call. We spoke for a bit, and he seemed more hurt and saddened by the fact that his wares weren't being enjoyed by others than anything else. Hell, just look at the guy's photo album on this site. He's got his family, his smoking room, and his collection up there for all to see. While I am admittedly new to these kinds of forums, this just doesn't seem like the type of person who would knowingly mislead his fellow BOTLs (even a clueless noob such as myself! :al )


I totally agree....when I say I feel bad for him, I really mean it. I don't think, as I have said before, that he was giving fakes away knowingly. I can only imagine what Dave must feel like right now. Dude I am really sorry, honestly bro. Joe meant no harm by this.....this could happen to anyone.


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## horrorview (Jan 27, 2005)

poker said:


> Never place cigars you got into a pass (or sell, trade, etc for that matter) that you got from *any * secondary source.


That is very sound advice, but there's a catch 22 for those new to the leaf, as, personally, I don't want to ask fellow BOTL's "where" and "how" they acquire their ISOMs, as that's a breach of board etiquette. However, on the other hand, this also makes it difficult to find a valid source that I can get my own ISOMs from. Therefore, all I've managed to acquire is from a group box buy (with an esteemed BOTL), and a bulk purchase (from another BOTL in good standing!). Of those two lots, I'm certain of their authenticity, and not afraid to share in a PIF; yet they are, in fact, "second hand". :hn


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## GOAT LOCKER (Aug 7, 2004)

coppertop said:


> Oh and GOAT, just so you know. The La Punta I sent you is from the same box that IHT is talking about. I don't know, maybe this one will be good, but the ones I've had have been flat. Not nasty, just flat. Don't know....bad batch like IHT said.


Coppertop, Thanks for the heads up. If it's not good, I won't dismiss the line. BTW, I smoked the Principe's with a buddy, and DAMN! that's a nice little smoke. Love the tones of cinnamon. I'm blaming you when the wife asks about that charge on the cc.

Hollywood, I don't think anyone thinks you intentionally sent fakes. Apparently, you have (had) some bad sources. That's easy enough to fix. I know it hurts the old pride a bit, but stick around and chalk it up as a learning experience.


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## dadof3illinois (Nov 7, 2004)

Just remember everyone, it's friendship and love of the leaf we are looking to share here. They were just cigars!!!

I haven't been in on any of the pif's or box passes, I want to but just haven't yet (I'm sure I will). But I have met some great BOTL's who were nice enough to let me in on a box split and out of the blue sent me some sticks to try. That meant more to me than the cigars! I wouldn't have cared if they were the worst smokes in the world, it didn't matter, it was the kindness and helpfulness that made me smile.

Isn't that what we are looking for? Brothers/Sisters to enjoy the leaf with!!!


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## pinoyman (Jan 28, 2005)

dadof3illinois said:


> Just remember everyone, it's friendship and love of the leaf we are looking to share here. They were just cigars!!!
> 
> I haven't been in on any of the pif's or box passes, I want to but just haven't yet (I'm sure I will). But I have met some great BOTL's who were nice enough to let me in on a box split and out of the blue sent me some sticks to try. That meant more to me than the cigars! I wouldn't have cared if they were the worst smokes in the world, it didn't matter, it was the kindness and helpfulness that made me smile.
> 
> Isn't that what we are looking for? Brothers/Sisters to enjoy the leaf with!!!


I couln't agree more Amigo, The taste of a Cigar is something to remember, but the friendship is what I'm keeping. Salud!


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## MoTheMan (May 24, 2003)

To me, if you know your source, its quality of product, and its reliability, there really isn't a question of authenticity. You just may have a bad batch. It happens.

I've been told by some of the LLG's here that some of the stuff I had was total fake. Had a box of cigars that supposedly was never made (R&J Pyramid EL), but my source was reliable, information was that these cigars were actually produced in limited quantities before all production was shifted to the Partagas Pyramid, and others were eventually able to try some (whether through me or other sources) and authenticate it. I tell you, because I knew my source was a reliable one, I trusted what I had.

Now eveybody will want to know, "what's the most reliable source around here?" . . . Well, as my friend *Mr. G* once said to me,

_"Over time, I became a regular customer of a few tobacconists whom I frequented on my trips. Heck, one of them in Switzerland even knows my kids' (who are all adults now) names. After some years, these folks began to take the chance and allow me to make the purchase then ship the boxes to me here in the US. While these merchants didn't carry everything I was looking for, over the years as I established a very strong bond with them they would never hesitate to find a particular cigar that I was looking for. Pretty soon, any cigar I could want to buy, I could obtain."_

Your best source may not be a retailer giant, but if they're good at their business, and you're a valued customer, I'm sure they'll be willing to go out of their way to service you in the best possible way they can, and get you primo product.


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## DaveC (Sep 4, 2003)

MoTheMan said:


> Your best source may not be a retailer giant, but if they're good at their business, and you're a valued customer, I'm sure they'll be willing to go out of their way to service you in the best possible way they can, and get you primo product.


very well put Mo! it's all about relationships, sometimes getting the best price on a cigar isn't the best deal.


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## (909) (Jul 27, 2004)

Dave, just got back from a ski trip and read this thread. MAN THAT SUCKS!!!

It's bad enough that you got the fake smokes but then you passed some of them on. I'm sure that there are no hard feelings and if there are there shouldn't be. 

It's unfortunate but as I have found out there are some folks out there that think that they have a "good source" for smokes and are buying fakes over and over. My buddy has had the same source for years and buys thousands of dollars in smokes a couple of times a year and has no idea that he's buying fakes. Granted they are nice copies but they are still fakes.

It has been written on this thread and others that you have to know your sources. It is very true and from what I've read lots of LLGs have paid the price for their education to be able to spot a fake.

Keep your head up and move on.


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## Navydoc (Jan 26, 2005)

It seems to me that disclosure of the suspected information should have been done between brothers....behind closed doors so to speak. It may have saved alot of hard feelings.


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## mr.c (Apr 8, 2004)

it was handled thru pm. Dave thought that since a couple people knew, that everyone would soon know/suspect or whatever. I think he did an honerable thing posting publicaly.


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## Navydoc (Jan 26, 2005)

mr.c said:


> it was handled thru pm. Dave thought that since a couple people knew, that everyone would soon know/suspect or whatever. I think he did an honerable thing posting publicaly.


OK, now I understand. From the original post it seemed that the info. leaked out before Dave was aware of the question of authenticity. I agree that Dave did an honorable thing and I would hope that we would all do the same. I would certainly appreciate any feedback if any of the cigars I send out were ever in question. One or two sources at most that is trusted, like everyone has already mentioned, is a great rule to follow.


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## cazadore (Jan 1, 2000)

It's fine to handle the DETAILS of something like this behind closed doors, but unfortunately there can be widespread ramifictions of something like this and it needs to be put out in public.

The tobacco or whatever  in fake Cuban cigars is almost assuredly not treated for beetles or stored properly. Fake Cuban cigars are notorious for having beeltes. ANYONE who may have had these in their humidor, whether thru a box pass, PIF, trade or sale could be in danger of a beetle outbreak. It's important for everyone who has dealt with an individual suspected of having fakes to get a heads up.


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## coppertop (Dec 29, 2003)

cazadore said:


> It's fine to handle the DETAILS of something like this behind closed doors, but unfortunately there can be widespread ramifictions of something like this and it needs to be put out in public.
> 
> The tobacco or whatever  in fake Cuban cigars is almost assuredly not treated for beetles or stored properly. Fake Cuban cigars are notorious for having beeltes. ANYONE who may have had these in their humidor, whether thru a box pass, PIF, trade or sale could be in danger of a beetle outbreak. It's important for everyone who has dealt with an individual suspected of having fakes to get a heads up.


Hey Caz.....didn't even think about the beetle problem. Good info as usual.


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## One Lonely Smoker (Jan 21, 2005)

Someone said it earlier, but this is why I also do not choose to participate in PIF's or trades for the most part. You never know who is involved with what vendor, and having seen many bad things in my short 5-6 years of ordering, I don't want to send out what I consider good cigars to get fakes.
I recently had what I considered to be a sub-standard SCdlH where the appearance was poor, and the flavor never hinted at Cuban tobacco, not once. Furthermore, the band did not have the accent mark over the "o" like the genuine article. I would never start off a conversation with "Hey, you sent me a fake", but if someone asks me about my impressions, I will tell them what I think. In truth, the accent mark is a very small spot on the band, and it could conceivably be left off of a band if say, the master die was clogged up, or however they do it. But just for giggles, look at the bands and see if they have an accent mark in Cristo'bal. To the person that sent me the "fake" cigar, no worries from this end. Just don't send me anymore, lol.


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## ilikecigars (Mar 24, 2003)

glad this was fixed...i saw this exploding on other boards as well...these things do get around and it isnt fair if a guy is wrongly put on the sc8m bag list..

dave i salute you for being a stand up botl ...

as for pifs...yes, either dont get involved, i stoped for this reason awhile back..i kept getting scewed sending out good smokes for whar probably was passed arond more then once...the ones nobody wanted..lol

or when you see a fog with amazing stash say who wants...you jump fast and then do the right thing to your pif in return. play smart or not at all.


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## hollywood (Feb 15, 2005)

OK EVERYBODY!!

First of all, and most importantly, THAK YOU ALL. I have just read throught the last couple of days replies, and can't say how nice it is to have a little understanding going on out there. It may take time to get over this crap, but i am not dodging out just yet! Gonna take a whole lot more than a couple words and fake SCLDH sticks to run me off!

I really think the SCDLH may have been fakes. I have done a ton more research and just can't confirm they are real. They may have been, but without definate proof; they are as good as fakes!!! My appologies to Cookieboy, for getting a stinker. 

As far as this lenght issue goes; this is not the first stick i've seen over 1/4" short from the "listed" size advertised. Just went through my humi and found 5 domestic sticks(and were talking Don diego types)that were off! 

Regardless of what is thought of the cigars being fake or not; it really doesn't matter! I would not do this intentionall for any reason. I'm just here to learn and meet some cool guys and gals who like cigars as much as I do. If anybody wishes to think otherwise; then f-ckoff, cause I probably wouldn't have liked your a-s anyway!?!

I have pulled a few cigarr out of my collection and have them isolated. If I do decide to pif again; I have certainly learned a hard lesson, and would know what to send and what not do; or just don't play! I mean, how many of us out there will ever know they have a fake isom, until someone else points it out!?! Even the best sources can pass bad products at any time. And I certainly will keep what had been passed to me to myself regardless of where or whom it came from. It's just easier that way, TRUST me!!!

Anyway, thanks for the love and a bit of trust out there. It means a lot!
I hope to hang here for a long time to come, and meet a few of you yahoos up close and personal like!

Later,

Dave


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## horrorview (Jan 27, 2005)

Cool beans, Dave!!


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## FunkyPorcini (Jan 13, 2005)

Thank you all for such good information. I know how it feels to be new to something and let the excitement take over. When I first came here I saw how well people treated each other and wanted to get in on the action. I saw myself leaping into passes and PIF's because it seemed like so much fun to share with such great BOTLs. After reading more and more about how the folks that have been around the block a few times do it I decided to throttle back and ease on into it slow. I can't tell you how this has allowed me to enjoy both the cigars and the people more. I don't post as much lately because I've been taking my time to read and listen more. What a difference it makes to take it slow. I don't plan on going anywhere and for that reason I want to make sure that what I pass on to others is a) what I enjoy and want others to enjoy with me and b) only the best quality.

Sometimes it's easy to get caught up in the action. Much respect to the "elder gorillas" around here for taking the time to make this such a great community.

This place is what we make it and while I have not met one person on here that I would expect to receive fakes from, I can totally understand how it happens. How you correct the mistake is what shows your character.

Damn this Flor de Oliva Grand Cameroon Robusto is good enough to make me want to keep writing but I'll stop here and do some more scanning.

Ya'll have a good night and Hollywood, don't sweat it. There will always be those that see you for who you really are and those are the only people that you need worry about.

Sorry for the ramble.

-FP


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## mr.c (Apr 8, 2004)

Click on the link for a good primer on fakes. Its long but a good read.

http://cigarnexus.com/counsel/counterfeit/index.html

From that page

_The cigars will be of the exact length as specified for the vitola. There is rarely greater than 1/16th of an inch of deviation from the published lengths of Cuban cigars. This is probably the easiest counterfeit check to perform and it is seldom done_.


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