# Will age help draw?



## dayplanner (Dec 11, 1997)

Recently received a box of Bolivar PC. Everyone seems to draw very hard. Like sucking a golf ball through a garden hose. 7/05 box code. Maybe they are just too new? I've gone through them and everyone is hard as a rock and the two I have tried, I have just tossed out. Very dissapointing.

Is this an age issue or did I just get stuck with a crappy box?


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## DaveC (Sep 4, 2003)

age won't help construction issues, but it could also just be the cigars are over humidified. I would let them rest several weeks to acclimate to your humidor then retry. 

As a rule of thumb, i try to let a box sit 3-4 weeks before i smoke from it.


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## dayplanner (Dec 11, 1997)

Bummer. I've had them longer than that. The whole box is probably a loss. I'm starting to get a bit aggravated with product from this particular vendor. I've had problems and the last few boxes I have purchased.

How can a whole box get rolled like this?


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## awhitaker (Sep 23, 2005)

What's the humidity in your humidor or more specifically where that box is sitting since the humidity can vary if there's no fan in a large coolerdor or humidor? It seems the experts say 65% is the rule for isoms.


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## DaveC (Sep 4, 2003)

awhitaker said:


> It seems the experts say 65% is the rule for isoms.


i say do what works for you. not all hygrometers are exact is the problem. I run my humidor at 61/61, it works best for me. some people say it's too cold and dry, but i don't care :u


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

slowhand said:


> Bummer. I've had them longer than that. The whole box is probably a loss. I'm starting to get a bit aggravated with product from this particular vendor. I've had problems and the last few boxes I have purchased.
> 
> How can a whole box get rolled like this?


Cubans are inconsistant. I can't even begin to count how many boxes I've had where almost all were plugged. Yes these are 100% legit from reputable dealers. I've only had one box of post 2003 cigars that most of the box was plugged. Anything before 2003 and it's going to be hit or miss. The vendor should have a money back guarantee, if they don't find another. I agree with Dave C, low 60's seem to make my cigars draw and burn better. The first thing a vendor will tell you when you have a box of plugged cigars is to let them sit a few weeks. In my experince this never helps, the cigars would have to be extremely over humidified for it to make a difference.


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## dayplanner (Dec 11, 1997)

Runs steady at 64 with the oasis. So it does get circulation. I don't have a problem with any other smokes. I just seem to be very unlucky when it comes to Havanas. The only good ones I ever seem to get are the ones I buy from other members around here. I bought a box of Coros from a member here  and they were fantastic. Bought a box from this vendor and they were not even close to being as good.

My everyday smokes are the Padron x000 and the Delicias. In over 2 and a half years of smoking them, I have tossed exactly one due to a bad draw. 

That's cool. Thanks for the info.


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## IamLoki (Sep 10, 2005)

The key here is that you communicate with your vendor. If they are reputable they will send you a replacement, exchange, or credit. If not, find someone new.

I think I know the vendor you're taking about, and I had trouble with 2 boxes recently; both boxes plugged and rock hard when I got them. I spoke with the vendor and they took them back no questions, and this was 2 months after getting them, so to me that vendor is *GOLD*.

I have had other boxes come to me rock hard from the same vendor, but they do draw. time in the humi has helped get them back into a supple condition, so I don't think that *underhumidification* is the issue here. I think it was a bad box to begin with. What I find a little troubling however, is that you have a Jul 05 box, and it's that severely underhumidifed.


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## One Lonely Smoker (Jan 21, 2005)

DaveC said:


> age won't help construction issues, but it could also just be the cigars are over humidified.


WHAT??????????? Perhaps not in your own experience, but I find that the older a tight cigar gets, the better it draws. Of course, you were correct when you said that it has much to do with humidity, and that he should never smoke a cigar from a freshly delivered box. It seems, especially with the narrower Ring gauge Bolivars, IME, that the tobacco is just to springy and oily and moist to smoke. This is what MRN calls hygroscopic. Not sure if he made up the word or not, but it works. The leaves just have too much bulk related to oil and moisture. The thick and juicy ligero leaves will eventually become tough, dry and leathery and take up less space in the bunch and will allow for a better airflow. If you MUST smoke one from a fresh box, tryto select one that feels light relative to it's size. You will see what I mean.


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## mr.c (Apr 8, 2004)

Agree with dave c. 

buy a cigar poker, your problem will be solved!





:2


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## Navydoc (Jan 26, 2005)

Had a box of Raphael Gonzalez that wouldn't draw worth a crap so they got put on the bottom of a pile and low and behold 1 1/2 yrs later they actually smoke very nice...go figure. So....yes, aging can help with a tight draw according to my experience of 1


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## dvickery (Jan 1, 2000)

best answer so far...onelonelysmoker...then navydoc.

3 years is the minimum time a cuban cigar should rest for.

any cigar i have(myself)stored for 3 years or longer has had a decent draw
of all the smokes i have stored(myself)for 3 years or more...i have never had a plugged one.

because the smokes i buy are stored in cuba until the day i buy them...even smokes with a few years to begin with(say 5 or 6 or 7 years)need a year before the cigar is a pleasant experience.

i dont have a vendor i can return cigars to...yet i get no plugged smokes...patience and a large stash slowhand.

derrek


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## pyrotech (Sep 8, 2005)

Lonely , Hygroscopic sure is a realword. It is defined as the abilitiy of a product to to react to the moisture content of the air by absorbing or releasing water vapor. 

In cigar storage its related to Critical water content: a water content which, if exceeded during transport or storage, may cause the onset of depreciative phenomena such as mold, fermentation, rot, self-heating/spontaneous combustion. 

If the water content falls below the critical value, desiccation losses may occur, such as fragmentation, drying-out, cracking. 

In cigars this critical water content is about 75%, thought the type of damaged caused tends to be temperature dependent. Thankfully cigars respond quite slowly to changes in humidity, and our beads etc react faster. Which is why early readings from a hygrometer will not truely reflect the cigar condition just the air surrounding the device. 

High moisture content in cigars causes an expansion of the tobacco, rehydration, and to a lesser extent inhibits burn. So moist cigars do tend to be a harder draw. 

So in some cases storage at a lower RH% may overtime result in a better draw from a "plugged " cigar.


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## DaveC (Sep 4, 2003)

One Lonely Smoker said:


> The thick and juicy ligero leaves will eventually become tough, dry and leathery and take up less space in the bunch and will allow for a better airflow.


don't tell me u read that in MRN too.


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## mcgoospot (Jan 1, 2000)

Have to agree with DaveC here. Other than the difference between an overhumidified cigar and one that has rested long enough to lose the overhumidification, I have not found that aging causes a plugged cigar to become unplugged. Recently I purchased a cab of '99 Party Lonsdales from my vendor of choice. These cigars are over 6 years old. When I got them in the spring they were so tight that they were unsmokable. The vendor credited my account and told me to eep the cigars. Six months later and after being stored at 62% humidity for the entire period the cigars are still unsmokable. I've experienced the identical thing with many other smaller ring guaged cigars from the '99-00 period. Bad rolling, period. No aging will help that.

On another note, I've not had a plugged cigar/tightly rolled cigar in the 100-200 boxes I've bought since 2002. "02-present have been excellent in regards to draw. Just my $.02.


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## ATLHARP (May 3, 2005)

Most cigars are typically shipped moist to prevent them from drying out during shipping. Give any ISOM's two weeks in 65% humidity or as I do in a dry box (a small empty humidor with no humidification device) that uses the humidity of the cigars themselves to humidify and dry them out at the same time. 
Use a digital hygrometer in the dry box to gauge how much humidity is being put out by the cigars. Typically mine push the humidity up to 70% to 72% when they first arrive and about within about 9 days the sticks will start pushing about 65% (This with periodically openings of the dry box to release humidity once the humidity is pushing upwards to the 70% to 72% range- Leave the box open with periods that are between 15 to 30 minutes), once the sticks only push around 63% to 62% (That's usually within 2-3 days after the initial 9 day period) put them in your regular humidor (hopefully that has humidity around 65%) and give them about another week or 10 days to settle in. After that they will start to draw beautifully. After one month the complexity of the cigars starts to really shine (depending on the age of the cigars and whether or not they are entering a sick period). 

This has worked beautifully for me numerous times and it allows the cigars to settle in gradually.

Enjoy, 

ATL


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## MiamiE (Mar 5, 2005)

i usually keep my cubans in the humi for a week or two before smoking any. i have found that the older sticks do tend to have a SLIGHTLY better draw than the newer sticks. of course its all in what you put into it. i dont give it much significance. a cigar that is plugged, i believe, will be plugged forever, regardless of age.


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## One Lonely Smoker (Jan 21, 2005)

DaveC said:


> don't tell me u read that in MRN too.


HAHA, no actually that was my own gospel. But to me, It's true, a nice fat juicy Bolivar that draws tight won't be so bad after it mummifies for awhile. I love the texture of a nice ligero leaf. Apparently the rollers don't. I had read something that Perdomo wrote about how his newer rollers were scrapping the ligero leaves and not including them in the bunch cause they caused so many problems that made their cigars hard to roll and therefore less likey to pass inspection. He couldn't believe it! hehe. Hell his cigars suck now anyway.


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## One Lonely Smoker (Jan 21, 2005)

ATLHARP said:


> Most cigars are typically shipped moist to prevent them from drying out during shipping. Give any ISOM's two weeks in a dry box (a small empty humidor with no humidification device) that uses the humidity of the cigars themselves to humidify and dry them out at the same time.


hehe, Told you, Slow.


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## Da Klugs (Jan 8, 2005)

mcgoospot said:


> Have to agree with DaveC here. Other than the difference between an overhumidified cigar and one that has rested long enough to lose the overhumidification, I have not found that aging causes a plugged cigar to become unplugged. Recently I purchased a cab of '99 Party Lonsdales from my vendor of choice. These cigars are over 6 years old. When I got them in the spring they were so tight that they were unsmokable. The vendor credited my account and told me to eep the cigars. Six months later and after being stored at 62% humidity for the entire period the cigars are still unsmokable. I've experienced the identical thing with many other smaller ring guaged cigars from the '99-00 period. Bad rolling, period. No aging will help that.
> 
> On another note, I've not had a plugged cigar/tightly rolled cigar in the 100-200 boxes I've bought since 2002. "02-present have been excellent in regards to draw. Just my $.02.


I agree. One exception. Fonseca KDT's still can be very tight. Seems specific to that model of that brand.


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## One Lonely Smoker (Jan 21, 2005)

dvickery said:


> any cigar i have(myself)stored for 3 years or longer has had a decent draw of all the smokes i have stored(myself)for 3 years or more...i have never had a plugged one.


That's why you answered on another board that you had smoked no 05's yet, no 04's yet, and might consider breaking a box of 03's here sooner or later, LOL. As much as I chuckle at this, it's exactly what I am doing. I have stockpiled boxes but have had a time of it trying to find something to smoke in the interim while I wait for these to get really sweet. Unfortunately, I have had to basically find some smokes that were great right out of the box like recent Monte #2 and #5 and BBFs. I have a few older boxes, but your advice to Slowhand was right on...that the best thing to do was to have a giant stock and be a few years behind in smoking them up. You will definitely find your draw problems are a thing of the past.


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## One Lonely Smoker (Jan 21, 2005)

mcgoospot said:


> Have to agree with DaveC here. Other than the difference between an overhumidified cigar and one that has rested long enough to lose the overhumidification, I have not found that aging causes a plugged cigar to become unplugged.


Yes, but to me, that IS the subtle difference HERE. There is no reason to believe that his cigars are plugged and not fat. 05 cigars, to me and IMO only, have a much higher chance of just being overly moist. That might have been the case in 00, 01 and even possibly 02, but today, I go with moisture content.


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## One Lonely Smoker (Jan 21, 2005)

DaveC said:


> age won't help construction issues, but it could also just be the cigars are over humidified. I would let them rest several weeks to acclimate to your humidor then retry.
> 
> As a rule of thumb, i try to let a box sit 3-4 weeks before i smoke from it.


OOOOPPS, mybad. My usual not reading well before reacting thing. He said that age will not help fix a *construction issue*. I thought he said age would not help a draw problem, which of course, is total BS. Of course, my counsel was correct, but unneccesary. Perhaps it was a subconcious reaction to my dislike of pugs and that other bug eyed dog that's black and white, I forgot the breed.


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## cls515 (Sep 28, 2005)

I recently experienced the same problem with a Belicosos Finos. It was really a bummer because the cigar tasted so good. After receiving the cigar, I let it sit for about two weeks in 65% humidity. Even then, the draw was terrible. I will never buy a Bolivar again due to this.


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

Fredster said:


> Cubans are inconsistant. I can't even begin to count how many boxes I've had where almost all were plugged. The vendor should have a money back guarantee, if they don't find another. I agree with Dave C, low 60's seem to make my cigars draw and burn better.


I agree, I've thrown out severa Cohibas, Limitadas, you name it that were tight. I find the Torpedo and Robusto shapes are least prone to being tight. Look at the cigars before you buy them if you can and make sure they are not made too tight. It's hard if you buy them via mail. Try asking your vendor if they are tight and if he's actually had any from that batch. I'll even try one and then come back for the box if I am happy.

A tight cigar is the worst!!! Just toss it and move on... Another reason to stick with robustos over churchhill's, each bad one doesn't hit the wallet as hard...


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## Nely (Nov 11, 2004)

cls515 said:


> I recently experienced the same problem with a Belicosos Finos. It was really a bummer because the cigar tasted so good. After receiving the cigar, I let it sit for about two weeks in 65% humidity. Even then, the draw was terrible. I will never buy a Bolivar again due to this.


I'm sorry to hear this, as you will be missing out on one of the best cigar line from Cuba. 
ALTHARP's advice makes a lot of sense.


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## colgate (Jan 18, 2005)

I don't know about three years, seems kind of unrealistic (how does that Queen song go? I want it now!) but yeah they do better over time. And overhumidification is a major no no from my experience. It ruins habanos. It's fine for NC because most of those are so loose you'll light your shirt on fire if you purge too vigorously.

I finally did like someone else said and ignored the hard and fast on the hydrometer. I let the humidity drop to the low 60's high 50's and the smokes were delightful. *Mid to high 60's and they SUCKED. Sour bad drawing crap!*

Also if you are in a hurry to smoke now I wouldn't go corona. Seems like those are pretty tightly packed fresh.



dvickery said:


> best answer so far...onelonelysmoker...then navydoc.
> 
> 3 years is the minimum time a cuban cigar should rest for.
> 
> ...


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## colgate (Jan 18, 2005)

cls515 said:


> I recently experienced the same problem with a Belicosos Finos. It was really a bummer because the cigar tasted so good. After receiving the cigar, I let it sit for about two weeks in 65% humidity. Even then, the draw was terrible. I will never buy a Bolivar again due to this.


Bolis Belis are among the more loosely filled and one of spongiest cigars. I've had great luck with these.


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## ATLHARP (May 3, 2005)

mcgoospot said:


> Have to agree with DaveC here. Other than the difference between an overhumidified cigar and one that has rested long enough to lose the overhumidification, I have not found that aging causes a plugged cigar to become unplugged. Recently I purchased a cab of '99 Party Lonsdales from my vendor of choice. These cigars are over 6 years old. When I got them in the spring they were so tight that they were unsmokable. The vendor credited my account and told me to eep the cigars. Six months later and after being stored at 62% humidity for the entire period the cigars are still unsmokable. I've experienced the identical thing with many other smaller ring guaged cigars from the '99-00 period. Bad rolling, period. No aging will help that.
> 
> On another note, I've not had a plugged cigar/tightly rolled cigar in the 100-200 boxes I've bought since 2002. "02-present have been excellent in regards to draw. Just my $.02.


Smaller ring gauge cigars are harder to roll; that combined with the price point (typically less than their larger ring gauge counterparts), and you have a recipe for neglect. ISOM's are typically better though due to the demand (in Europe, most of the demand is for smaller ring gauge cigars), but the difficulty remains so I think the inherent problems are still there.

The BBF on the other hand is typically not that problematic due to the fact that most companies put their most experienced rollers on belicosos and torpedo like cigars. These shaped cigars are typically more expensive and a lot of times the signature of the companies' line (think Monte 2, Dip 2's). Smaller ring gauge cigars are not usually the namesake of a cigar company.

ATL


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

dvickery said:


> best answer so far...onelonelysmoker...then navydoc.
> 
> 3 years is the minimum time a cuban cigar should rest for.
> 
> ...


I agree on aging at least 3 years (most of the time) for the best taste, but it doesn't make a bit of difference on the draw when you are dealing with cigars that have construction problems ( and 99 out of 100 times a cigar won't draw it's due to construction not storage). The cigars I see the most problems with are londsdales, and I don't buy much fresh stock. I had a cab of 99 Part. Londsdales recently and 40 of the 50 were plugged. 100% construction issue that no amount of age will fix. No disrespect intended, but I don't see how you can smoke Cubans and never have a plugged cigar. It's just probably luck that all the ones you stored 3 years were ok. I mean they weren't plugged when you bought them right? I've been smoking Cubans close to 10 years and have had 100's of plugged ones from different vendors ( Spain,London,Switzerland,Canada,etc.) and there's no way it's because they were all stored improperly. I've also seen a huge difference in 2003 and after Cubans. Much better construction and very few draw problems. Why, because there is a focus on quality that was not present in other years where all they concentrated on was production #'s. The biggest reason is the use of draw test machines that was implemented in the factories around 2003. There's no way you going to convince me that everything I buy will smoke ok if I store it a certain way.


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## dvickery (Jan 1, 2000)

fred
i never said i have never had a plugged cigar...the ones i have had have not been smokes i have had(in my storage facilities)for a number of years.i have had a terrible time in cuba and take my own back there now.also had a few from a local smokeshop that were a tough smoke.all in all i have been lucky with maybe a handfull of plugged/unsmokable cigars lifetime.

of the 100's of plugged smokes you have had...regardless of age...how many have been stored by you for a few years???seems like incredible bad luck.

bad omen...after yucking it up like this my next box will be all plugged and its your fault fred.  

derrek


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

dvickery said:


> fred
> i never said i have never had a plugged cigar...the ones i have had have not been smokes i have had(in my storage facilities)for a number of years.i have had a terrible time in cuba and take my own back there now.also had a few from a local smokeshop that were a tough smoke.all in all i have been lucky with maybe a handfull of plugged/unsmokable cigars lifetime.
> 
> of the 100's of plugged smokes you have had...regardless of age...how many have been stored by you for a few years???seems like incredible bad luck.
> ...


 So your saying anything you store a few years will draw? Sorry but I just can't believe that. When I get a box of cigars that is problematic a lot of times I will disect the cigar just to see where the problem was. Sometimes it's a hard spot that can actually be cut away if it's close to the foot and you can still smoke the cigar. Most of the time it's because the cigar was just plain rolled too tight. No I have not taken plugged cigars and kept them 3 years, but I would bet any amount of money it would not change a thing. If it's storage that is causing this problem how do you explain very few draw problems on 2003 and later cigars? Were you smoking in the 90's? I remember buying cigars in the late 90's where a whole box was plugged. Quality control was very poor back then. It had nothing to do with storage. Now I do think if you store cigars in the low to mid 60's% you will have fewer tight draws, but if a cigar is plugged due to construction there's not a thing you can do about it. A draw poker will help a tight draw, but not one thats rolled too tight the entire lenth of the cigar like many are.
I don't think I've had particularly bad luck because I've probably had a few hundred Cubans that were unsmokable. If you do the math for the 9years I've been smoking pretty much at least one a day, thats over 3000 cigars. 400 would be about 13%. I'd guess in 99 and 00 it was more like 20-30% were plugged. If you've only had a handfull in a lifetime, I'd say that you have incredibly GOOD luck. I'm not the only one saying this. Go back and look at cigar afficionado's reviews before 2003. So many low scores due to tight or plugged cigars. I don't particularly agree with a lot of their publication, but if a cigar is plugged it's plugged. Bottom line is I love smoking cigars with age, but it's a crap shoot when you purchase cigars before 03 and I believe that in most cases it has to do with constuction not storage.


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## colgate (Jan 18, 2005)

Fredster said:


> So your saying anything you store a few years will draw? Sorry but I just can't believe that. When I get a box of cigars that is problematic a lot of times I will disect the cigar just to see where the problem was. Sometimes it's a hard spot that can actually be cut away if it's close to the foot and you can still smoke the cigar. Most of the time it's because the cigar was just plain rolled too tight. No I have not taken plugged cigars and kept them 3 years, but I would bet any amount of money it would not change a thing. If it's storage that is causing this problem how do you explain very few draw problems on 2003 and later cigars? Were you smoking in the 90's? I remember buying cigars in the late 90's where a whole box was plugged. Quality control was very poor back then. It had nothing to do with storage. Now I do think if you store cigars in the low to mid 60's% you will have fewer tight draws, but if a cigar is plugged due to construction there's not a thing you can do about it. A draw poker will help a tight draw, but not one thats rolled too tight the entire lenth of the cigar like many are.
> I don't think I've had particularly bad luck because I've probably had a few hundred Cubans that were unsmokable. If you do the math for the 9years I've been smoking pretty much at least one a day, thats over 3000 cigars. 400 would be about 13%. I'd guess in 99 and 00 it was more like 20-30% were plugged. If you've only had a handfull in a lifetime, I'd say that you have incredibly GOOD luck. I'm not the only one saying this. Go back and look at cigar afficionado's reviews before 2003. So many low scores due to tight or plugged cigars. I don't particularly agree with a lot of their publication, but if a cigar is plugged it's plugged. Bottom line is I love smoking cigars with age, but it's a crap shoot when you purchase cigars before 03 and I believe that in most cases it has to do with constuction not storage.


A lot of time people sucking through a straw are suffering because the tobacco is overhumidified causing the leaves to swell and burn poorly (wet). Sometimes people think that's a plug. And after they dry out the situation rectifies itself. And then there are too tight smokes that will stay plugged no matter what. No big deal, it's just that people (especially newbs and near newbs like myself) don't necessarily separate one issue from the other. Better to make sure your not overhumidified before assuming it's construction.


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

colgate said:


> A lot of time people sucking through a straw are suffering because the tobacco is overhumidified causing the leaves to swell and burn poorly (wet). Sometimes people think that's a plug. And after they dry out the situation rectifies itself. And then there are too tight smokes that will stay plugged no matter what. No big deal, it's just that people (especially newbs and near newbs like myself) don't necessarily separate one issue from the other. Better to make sure your not overhumidified before assuming it's construction.


I hear you, but I can tell you after 10 years of dealing with this, humidity plays a very small part of the problem cigars. God if I had the money on the hudreds of plugged Cubans I've had. The best cigars in the world are also the most inconsistant. If the cigars are swelled because of humidity it should only take a few weeks in the proper setting to fix em. I've tried draw pokers, letting them sit out at 40% on my kitchen counter, and most of the time it's a construction issue. Of course the first thing a vendor will tell you is let them sit a while in case they have swelled. I can tell you that not once has this ever made a difference. I've taken cigars straight from the mailbox here in Fl. that took 3 weeks to get to me, in 100 deg. heat and humidity at close to 100% and been able to smoke them if there were not construction issues. I'm not saying this a good thing to do, but sometimes you just can't wait man! The worst problem I have encountered from this is an erratic burn or the cigar going out. I have never experienced swelling from humidity make a cigar plugged. I have seen a cigar that was rolled a bit too tight and the draw was marginal, become better from drying out, but never one that had no draw start drawing after a period of time.


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