# SMOKE FREE ONTARIO - Tobacco Display Ban



## DonnieW (Jul 2, 2008)

Here's the official verbiage:

*"Effective May 31, 2008 s. 3.1(2) of the Smoke-Free **Ontario Act requires that:*

*No person shall display or **permit the display of tobacco products in any place **where tobacco products are sold or offered for sale in **any manner that will permit a consumer to view any **tobacco product before purchasing the tobacco."*​
Anyone local to Ontario is well aware of this, you can't walk into a store and not notice that all smokes are in closed cabinets - frankly its an eyesore. What most (including our American visitors) didn't realize is that this display ban significantly affects the cigar aficionados. Guess what? We can no longer walk into a humidor - instead you must know what you want or will need to pick from a catalog!! Granted there are exceptions for establishments that sell cigars/tobacco exclusively, but those places are few and far between. No longer can we hand pick and inspect our investments (whether short or long term)  

I know the spirit of the ban is to curb youth from being brand-influenced or otherwise having an easy time picking out a pack, but this has unfortunately had a negative effect on the responsible cigar smokers - many of which are on this forum I'm sure.​


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## Fullycanvassed (May 25, 2008)

It's a pain in the ass, and frankly it won't really do anything since underage smokers get their tobacco through other means - they aren't dumb enough to walk into a store by themselves. Hell I bought my first cigarettes at 19, and they were behind the counter, and I was so dead set on buying smokes that curtains wouldn't have deterred me either way.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe B&M cigar shops are affected by this, which is where most cigar smokers purchase from anyway. Granted the internet is always cheaper for smokes, and the taxes are so ridiculously high in B&Ms, it's only a matter of time before all retailers start dying a slow death. My :2.


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## DonnieW (Jul 2, 2008)

Fullycanvassed said:


> It's a pain in the ass, and frankly it won't really do anything since underage smokers get their tobacco through other means - they aren't dumb enough to walk into a store by themselves. Hell I bought my first cigarettes at 19, and they were behind the counter, and I was so dead set on buying smokes that curtains wouldn't have deterred me either way.
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe B&M cigar shops are affected by this, which is where most cigar smokers purchase from anyway. Granted the internet is always cheaper for smokes, and the taxes are so ridiculously high in B&Ms, it's only a matter of time before all retailers start dying a slow death. My :2.


Totally agree, retailers are feeling the pinch. That's disappointing because part of the enjoyment in this hobby/passion is visiting your shop and picking out some sticks. Even though the B&M's are priced much higher than can be found online - I still enjoyed chatting it up with the owners and glancing over the fine goods.


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## shaggy (Dec 28, 2006)

actual cigar shops are exempt from this. the cigar shop has a different license...a tobbacanist...and they will continue business as usual. this does come into play with convience stores that have/had a cabnet humi with some sticks in it. the ones i have seen that still have them simply papered the inside of the glass. doesnt make a difference to me as i get my ciggarettes from the reservation and cigars online for the most part.


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## DonnieW (Jul 2, 2008)

shaggy said:


> actual cigar shops are exempt from this. the cigar shop has a different license...a tobbacanist...and they will continue business as usual. this does come into play with convience stores that have/had a cabnet humi with some sticks in it. the ones i have seen that still have them simply papered the inside of the glass. doesnt make a difference to me as i get my ciggarettes from the reservation and cigars online for the most part.


Correct, one must be a licensed tobacconist. Unfortunately, that's not without its own problems. A tobacconist must make upwards of 90% of their income from tobacco products - hence why convenience stores and the small shops within grocery stores are now screwed. Shops like Hemingway's used to do good business in both cigars and gifts (non-tobacco). Unfortunately they've had to terminate sales of the non-tobacco products to continue as a tobacconist - this means less income to float. The four or five big (I use that loosely) cigar shops in the GTA are all trying to sell their businesses because they're hurting so bad. I fundamentally disagree with the way a tobacconist is forced to run. Geez, they can't even have a smoking lounge anymore! On the positive side, as a tobacconist, they are legally entitled to advertise on the web - the same cannot be said for the others. This may mean our favorite shop moves exclusively online??


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## DonnieW (Jul 2, 2008)

DonnieW said:


> ...This may mean our favorite shop moves exclusively online??


Oh, but wait... it's illegal to sell and ship cigars on-line in Ontario. I see the end of cigar shops in Ontario. :hn


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## shaggy (Dec 28, 2006)

DonnieW said:


> Correct, one must be a licensed tobacconist. Unfortunately, that's not without its own problems. A tobacconist must make upwards of 90% of their income from tobacco products - hence why convenience stores and *the small shops within grocery stores are now screwed*. Shops like Hemingway's used to do good business in both cigars and gifts (non-tobacco). Unfortunately they've had to terminate sales of the non-tobacco products to continue as a tobacconist - this means less income to float. The four or five big (I use that loosely) cigar shops in the GTA are all trying to sell their businesses because they're hurting so bad. I fundamentally disagree with the way a tobacconist is forced to run. Geez, they can't even have a smoking lounge anymore! On the positive side, as a tobacconist, they are legally entitled to advertise on the web - the same cannot be said for the others. This may mean our favorite shop moves exclusively online??


is this the case??? i havent been over to the local "holy smokes" lately but i was under the impression they had a separate license from the supermarket


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## DonnieW (Jul 2, 2008)

shaggy said:


> is this the case??? i havent been over to the local "holy smokes" lately but i was under the impression they had a separate license from the supermarket


Nah, they're inclusive to the store. You'll notice they share the same cashiers, etc. Stinks, because I really liked Holy Smokes. Their mgmt. instruction was to cater to the locals. That means every store would have a different selection. The unofficial-official deal is that they are all going to be turned into either wine kiosks or ??? I am in tight with the shops around the GTA, thus I felt the need to vent our mutual frustration with this less than thought out act.

Viva Native Indian Reserves :tu


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## shaggy (Dec 28, 2006)

i was sure the one near me specifically told me and pointed to a tobacanist license on the wall.....i am gonna have to go check it out now


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## DonnieW (Jul 2, 2008)

shaggy said:


> i was sure the one near me specifically told me and pointed to a tobacanist license on the wall.....i am gonna have to go check it out now


Two things would need to be certain, one is that there couldn't be any access from the supermarket itself, and second, the humidor couldn't be viewable from outside. If thats the case, they may very well have leased the unit out, though I'm not aware of any units that are separated from the store. Holy Smokes is owned by a couple Jewish guys. I know at least one person who was very keen on buying Holy Smokes from them and moving the stores out to strip plazas. I'm sure they'd do better there. Besides, Holy Smokes is in contrast with the healthy/family image some of those supermarkets are trying to portray.


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## Bear (Sep 22, 2007)

FWIW guys, there's always a silver lining... Now might be a good time to get to know your local convenience store owner and let him know that you might be in the market for a used cabinet. It can't be too long before these items will be viewed as just an other eyesore (they look terrible now) that is taking up their valuable square footage.
I approached the guy not too far from my place a few months ago to lay the groundwork. Who knows, there might be a great opportunity here for us. 
It's unfortunate that the legislators have decided to take it too far once again here in Ontario and have imposed yet an other example "Nanny State" politics. Welcome to the True North Strong and (not so) Free...


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## Moro (Jun 30, 2008)

I must say; this definetly portrays today's society thoughts on smoking: People who smoke cigarrettes never pick up an specific box... why should people do it any other way?

I feel yer pain, mates from Ontario.


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## O-Danger (Apr 26, 2008)

And it's not just you, I walked into my local B&M and found that his walk in humi had one way glass now and all his smokes were in there as well (it's a pretty large humi and not really walk in as there are just wall cabnets but it is a seprate room none the less). Anyway Alberta was just hit on the first of this month. It is really odd to look behind the counters and see grey plastic covers. I agree that the end to convenince stores selling cigars is comming to an end as it is just too hard. I should start looking for sales:chk


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## ZedR2 (Jul 6, 2008)

Remember this come election time !!


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## replicant_argent (May 13, 2006)

More ridiculous Nanny-Statism.
Whether you are a province, a state, a protectorate, a nation, a city, county, or parrish, protection of anyone from simply viewing a product of any type, unless lewd, is an abomination to the tenets of good taste, logic, and common sense.

I propose 12 foot high fences around all cattle pastures, to protect vegetarians from the possible insult of the idea of fat laden meat being thrust upon them, as well as the serious documentation of anyone purchasing paint brushes, lest they somehow paint something provocative, leading any person, short or tall, thin or fat, intelligent or moronic, to the path that may lead them to inevitable thought, relaxation, or the perusal of their pleasures through any means that may possibly offend those thin-skinned malcontents who find it their mission to fill the world with hypocritical nonsense.


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## DonnieW (Jul 2, 2008)

replicant_argent said:


> More ridiculous Nanny-Statism.
> Whether you are a province, a state, a protectorate, a nation, a city, county, or parrish, protection of anyone from simply viewing a product of any type, unless lewd, is an abomination to the tenets of good taste, logic, and common sense.


Bloody right. Here's the bullshit irony, in Canada it is perfectly legal for women to go around topless - showing boobs to anyone, be they Christians, Muslims, atheists, etc. Some may consider public nudity immoral, almost evil (I'm cool with it). Nonetheless its perfectly fine to show their gear. But damn, don't you dare show anyone your cigar.


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## papajohn67 (May 25, 2006)

DonnieW said:


> Bloody right. Here's the bullshit irony, in Canada it is perfectly legal for women to go around topless - showing boobs to anyone, be they Christians, Muslims, atheists, etc. Some may consider public nudity immoral, almost evil (I'm cool with it). Nonetheless its perfectly fine to show their gear. But damn, don't you dare show anyone your cigar.


Breasts & Stogies...all sounds good to me. Don't cover any of them up. :tu


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## ZedR2 (Jul 6, 2008)

How would us cigar guys go about starting up a petition to the government , I stopped in at a local shop that used to have pretty good display and now I can not even see the cigar until I buy it/them , I'm 55 F'ing years old and I can't even look at what I want to buy ?
We need to start something up and raise a little hell , any ideas ?


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## GWN (Jun 2, 2007)

Went to my local convenience store the other day, which has a decent-sized walk-in with lots of CCs, Rockys, Padrons, etc. All the nice glass windows were covered up. Asked the guy if I could go in. Sez "Nope. New law." 
I say, "How do I know what you have in there?"
Looks at me with an odd look. Then invites me in.
Obviously it's a law created by folks who have never smoked a cigar. When will they learn choosing a cigar is nothing like asking for a pack of DuMauriers or Marlboros? And kids buying a handful of Upmann coronas at (with our taxes) $10 a pop. Give me a break.


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## DonnieW (Jul 2, 2008)

ZedR2 said:


> How would us cigar guys go about starting up a petition to the government , I stopped in at a local shop that used to have pretty good display and now I can not even see the cigar until I buy it/them , I'm 55 F'ing years old and I can't even look at what I want to buy ?
> We need to start something up and raise a little hell , any ideas ?


Thousands of people petitioned against it even prior to the first reading. However, becacuse this was phased-in legislation, no one could stop this phase. They've somehow managed to piggy-back these half-baked plans onto the existing one, which almost every smoker supported. The original plan was simply to restrict smokes from minors, that was the freakin Trojan Horse. Inside the old horse was all this nonesense of hiding smokes and screwing over legit cigar shops.


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## Mtmouse (Jun 11, 2007)

DonnieW said:


> Thousands of people petitioned against it even prior to the first reading. However, becacuse this was phased-in legislation, no one could stop this phase. They've somehow managed to piggy-back these half-baked plans onto the existing one, which almost every smoker supported. The original plan was simply to restrict smokes from minors, that was the freakin Trojan Horse. Inside the old horse was all this nonesense of hiding smokes and screwing over legit cigar shops.


I'm sorry, but I think this new legislation will have the opposite effect. They have now made cigarettes even more, the "forbidden fruit'.


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## Old Sailor (Jul 27, 2006)

ZedR2 said:


> How would us cigar guys go about starting up a petition to the government , I stopped in at a local shop that used to have pretty good display and now I can not even see the cigar until I buy it/them , I'm 55 F'ing years old and I can't even look at what I want to buy ?
> We need to start something up and raise a little hell , any ideas ?


Won't do any good....when the Government has made up their mind on something, petitions are not going to change it. I speak from 30 yrs experience as a Fed. employee...they will do what they want period and anything you say or do will not change it.:2


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## Fortunate_Son (Feb 5, 2008)

O-Danger said:


> Anyway Alberta was just hit on the first of this month. It is really odd to look behind the counters and see grey plastic covers. I agree that the end to convenince stores selling cigars is comming to an end as it is just too hard. I should start looking for sales:chk


I was up in Calgary last week and was surprised to find the display closed up at a news stand I buy cigars from. I'd just assumed they closed it up to help maintain humidity better.

The nanny state just gets more pervasive in the English speaking countries......... the U.S. hasn't gone as far down that road but the forces behind it are powerful here. I hope we can resist the worst of it.


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## RETSF (Dec 7, 2006)

DonnieW said:


> Here's the official verbiage:
> 
> *"Effective May 31, 2008 s. 3.1(2) of the Smoke-Free **Ontario Act requires that:*
> 
> ...


Actually its an increase in control of peoples behavior by the government. Increnmentally the restrictions get tighter and tighter until all tobacco will cease to exist in Canada. Of course Canadians aren't alone, in the U.S. socialists who run the country are only looking out for those of us that don't know any better. With them being smarter and know whats best for us, I can hardly wait to pay more taxes than other americans don't pay to support childerns health and and i truly look forward to the day when we too must order our tobacco from a catalog. NOT!!!!


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## DonnieW (Jul 2, 2008)

Old Sailor said:


> Won't do any good....when the Government has made up their mind on something, petitions are not going to change it. I speak from 30 yrs experience as a Fed. employee...they will do what they want period and anything you say or do will not change it.


 
That is the truth man! In 2001 we saw the first visible change to the tobacco display legislation in the form of restricting tobacco advertising. We all remember the Benson and Hedges Symphony of Fire story. The GOV put the advertising ban in place and called bluff on the tobacco manufactures. Well, Rothmans told the GOV to go 'f' themselves and pulled tens of millions in sponsorships. When the major cities hosting the event came to lynch the Feds, the Feds caved and put down the funding to keep it going sans tobacco advertising.



RETSF said:


> ...Incrementally the restrictions get tighter and tighter until all tobacco will cease to exist in Canada.




It will never happen my friend (maybe... but unlikely). The GOV has an economical responsibility that will continue to force them to allow the sale of tobacco products until they can make up the BILLIONS of dollars they collect in tobacco tax. IMHO, all this bullshit legislation is doing is going after some low hanging fruit to appease the non-smokers. The GOV cannot afford to curtail tobacco sales any more than they have already - its simply economic suicide. 

Another affect of restrictions is the obvious encouragement of smuggling. Smuggling is the worst nightmare for the GOV. Not only does smoking continue to flourish, it actually tends to grow because the cost of the product is usually cheaper. Add to that, the GOV loses tax income due to the illicit sales. We've seen the same happen to a lesser degree with booze, guns, ****, etc.

This dialogue is good and I hope folks continue to post their thoughts for discussion.


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## DMK (Jun 16, 2008)

What the Firetruck....
I was at Fortino's yesterday picking up a bit of groceries and decided to stop in to the Holy Smokes shop on the way out....
Since the Grov. stuck their oar in and decided to play nanny they had to put up those stupid shelf covers over the dreaded cancer sticks and tinted the windows of the walk in humidor so you couldn't see. At least you could still go into the humidor ... with an escort... to pick out your sticks.
Well yesterday, I go in and I'm told.... "Here is a list of what we have, pick out what you want and I'll bring them out for you"...
My reply was .... like h e double toothpicks.... I'll buy elsewhere.
They just lost any and all of my future business.
I'll buy online and smugg....... err ... nevermind.....:r


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## shaggy (Dec 28, 2006)

DMK said:


> What the Firetruck....
> I was at Fortino's yesterday picking up a bit of groceries and decided to stop in to the Holy Smokes shop on the way out....
> Since the Grov. stuck their oar in and decided to play nanny they had to put up those stupid shelf covers over the dreaded cancer sticks and tinted the windows of the walk in humidor so you couldn't see. At least you could still go into the humidor ... with an escort... to pick out your sticks.
> Well yesterday, I go in and I'm told.... "Here is a list of what we have, pick out what you want and I'll bring them out for you"...
> ...


i was wondering how they were operating.....just too lazy to go see.

oh well....taxes make it kinda silly to shop up here anyways


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## DMK (Jun 16, 2008)

The stupid part of it is, that I was in there about 3 weeks ago and they were still letting you go into the walk in... accompanied...but at least you could pick out your own sticks.


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## DonnieW (Jul 2, 2008)

DMK said:


> The stupid part of it is, that I was in there about 3 weeks ago and they were still letting you go into the walk in... accompanied...but at least you could pick out your own sticks.


Well, if it makes you feel better, Fortino's is looking to lease out the space. Holy Smokes has canned their leases. Lease dates are spread all over, so shops will close in staggered dates from what I'm told.


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## Bear (Sep 22, 2007)

DonnieW said:


> Well, if it makes you feel better, Fortino's is looking to lease out the space. Holy Smokes has canned their leases. Lease dates are spread all over, so shops will close in staggered dates from what I'm told.


Now is the time to contact the Holy Smokes near you if you are in the market for a cabinet humi...


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## shaggy (Dec 28, 2006)

the one here didnt have any cabs....just a big walk in


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## DonnieW (Jul 2, 2008)

shaggy said:


> the one here didnt have any cabs....just a big walk in


I believe they're all like that. But to Bear's point, they will be dumping off stock in the next 5-6 months.


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## DMK (Jun 16, 2008)

But will you be able to look at it.....:r before you buy....


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## shaggy (Dec 28, 2006)

DMK said:


> But will you be able to look at it.....:r before you buy....


no:r


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## DonnieW (Jul 2, 2008)

Reminds me of those old paper 'SURPRISE' bags from when I was a kid. You never know what you're going to get.


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## Habsrule29 (May 11, 2005)

We have a shop here in waterloo. Its actually a convenience store with its own walk in humidor. The owner was able to put a wall with a door in front of the humidor and patrons are allowed to walk into the humidor that way, but if you are just shopping in the store, you are unable to see into the humidor.


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## DonnieW (Jul 2, 2008)

Habsrule29 said:


> We have a shop here in waterloo. Its actually a convenience store with its own walk in humidor. The owner was able to put a wall with a door in front of the humidor and patrons are allowed to walk into the humidor that way, but if you are just shopping in the store, you are unable to see into the humidor.


Unfortunately that's contrary to law - just a matter of time before they get nabbed by the smoke police. Too bad really, they're chipping away at the already small profits of convenience stores.


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## Bear (Sep 22, 2007)

DonnieW said:


> Unfortunately that's contrary to law - just a matter of time before they get nabbed by the smoke police. Too bad really, they're chipping away at the already small profits of convenience stores.


I spoke with a local convenience store owner and he informed me that he didn't own the humidor or the cigars. A company was leasing out the space and they took care of everything. He declined to tell me what the comapny was. Does anyone have any info on a company that offers this type of service?


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## DonnieW (Jul 2, 2008)

Bear said:


> I spoke with a local convenience store owner and he informed me that he didn't own the humidor or the cigars. A company was leasing out the space and they took care of everything. He declined to tell me what the comapny was. *Does anyone have any info on a company that offers this type of service?*


Yeah, its called the Chinese mafia. No, I'm not kidding.

Hmmm... let's see, he's breaking the law, likely has the local inspector paid off, what are the chances he's selling legit smokes?

Just curious, how are the prices? And knowing you're an astute smoker, what do you think of his collection?


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## Rockem Sockem (Sep 7, 2008)

:gnGuidelines for Registration as a Tobacconist with the Ontario Ministry of Health Promotion

http://www.mhp.gov.on.ca/english/health/smoke_free/application/guidelines.pdf

I haven't seen anyone post a link to this doc in this thread yet. Good reading - even if it does make you see red.


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## DonnieW (Jul 2, 2008)

Rockem Sockem said:


> :gnGuidelines for Registration as a Tobacconist with the Ontario Ministry of Health Promotion
> 
> http://www.mhp.gov.on.ca/english/health/smoke_free/application/guidelines.pdf
> 
> I haven't seen anyone post a link to this doc in this thread yet. Good reading - even if it does make you see red.


Its a piece of work. Despite these so-called accommodations for specialty tobacconists, the legislation is still putting hard working Canadians out of business. Good news is we've just called a general election. Now's the time to speak up Canada!!!


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## linty (Sep 20, 2008)

this is a real shame, as a newb to the world of cigars i would love to go to a place like holy smokes at my local rcss and look around, but now they have those manilla coloured panels over them... is uninviting. honestly i don't see how this covering up and heavy taxes and all will prevent... well anytning. the more this goes on, the more and more people will find other avenues to get what they want, weither that be black market or other means.


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## CosmoKCohiba (Nov 6, 2008)

I`m still not used to this one, everytime I walk int a corner store I find myself thinking WTF is that cabinet behind the counter, a real eye sore, our gov`t clearly has nothing better to do with its time and resources.


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## totallytentative (Oct 4, 2008)

We've got the same annoying thing here in BC. Covered or blacked out cabinets in anywhere except dedicated smoke stores..... then the _windows and doors_ are blacked out or covered.
:c


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