# Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's



## moki

*Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

Played some poker tonight with the boys, and smoked a bunch of nice cigars, mostly Cubans. Quick takes, in order of smoking:

*Partagas Serie D No.3 EL (2001)* -- this was an okay smoke; it had a nice flavor on the exhale, but was a bit rough and unrefined. Didn't do a whole lot for me, it isn't a cigar I'd go out of my way to smoke again

*Padrón 1926 Serie No.1 (2002)* -- quite a nice smoke as always -- nice deep coffee/cocoa flavor, but still smooth and semi-sweet. Always an excellent cigar, if on the robust side -- but never harsh.

*Cohiba Piramide EL (2003)* -- despite being a relatively young Cuban, this was just a great smoke. The rich maduro wrapper played off of the semi-sweet tobacco in wonderful ways. These are some great sticks.

*Romeo y Julieta EL Robusto (2001)* -- ahhh, now this is more like it. After the let-down of the Partagas EL, this Romeo was excellent. Nice ceder and citrus flavors, with a sharp but smooth Cubano twang on the exhale. A very enjoyable smoke.

So three thumbs up, and a mediocre but okay smoke from the Partagas Serie D No.3 EL. Won a bit in poker too, it was a nice night.

My order of preference is as follows:

Padrón 1926 Serie No.1
Cohiba Piramide EL (2003)
Romeo y Julieta EL Robusto (2001)
Partagas Serie D No.3 EL (2001)

...but honestly, I think it depends on your mood. Sometimes you want a lighter cigar, sometimes you want a deeper, richer one. I could easily see wanting the RyJ EL more than the Padrón/Cohiba EL, depending on my mood.


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## moki

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

Apparently there's some dispute as to whether there is such a thing as a Cohiba Piramide 2003 EL cigar. After smoking one, I've no doubt it is a Cohiba; indeed, you can tell just by giving the foot a nice sniff.

Anyway, here are some pictures of a Cohiba Piramide 2003 EL cigar next to a Cohiba Double Corona 2003 EL (which has unfortunately been rather damaged from being mailed to me) and a Cohiba Piramide Reserva:

All three cigars together:









A close-up of the bands:


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## Churchlady

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

Hey, moki, you don't happen to have one that looks like a pipe, do you? 
WOW! Dem sum Nice lookin' sticks!

(not accusing them of being fakes, just making light of the question if they're real) They do look Gorgeous!


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## Pablo

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

I don't think there is any doubt that there was Edicion Limitada Cohiba Piramide..at least not according to Habanos S.A.. I didn't think it was a 2003 though...


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## IHT

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

how come the "B" in the band on the far left is more "squat" than the other "B's" on the other bands?

also, i've never had one of those padrons, so i'm not talking from experience, but how does it beat out the other cuban ELs? i've had other highly touted padrons, and they paled in comparison to a machine made Quintero....


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## Fredster

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

All of the Padrons pale in comparison to any Cubans I've smoked. The Cohiba L.E. Maduro Torpedo was a 2001 edition cigar not 2003 , that alone tells me they are fake. Also the Reserva cigar has the gold band. The seleccion reserva was made for the festival Habanos 2003 before that gold styled band came out. Iv'e smoked all of the Padron anniverario,OpusX,Ashton VSG's in the past, I don't know anyone who is smoking real Cubans that would say any of those cigars comes close to comparing with a good Cuban.


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## Bruce5

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

Cohiba EL's pyramids:
Only come with 2001 bands on them.
I am sorry to dissapoint you but Fred is correct..
.
Reserva Selection: 
I think Fred may be incorrect as far as the "new gold lettering". 
I am pretty sure it first came out on the Selection Reserva line originally. 
Although the Reservas were released mid to late 03, they were rolled, banded and boxed several months before that with the "new gold lettering". Then all Cohiba box codes dated after either June or October 2003 have the gold lettering from then forward. For example if you have a box of Cohiba Robustos dated Nov 03 without gold lettering... you have been taken. I would like to hear from others who can check there box codes on the Reserva Line. 
.


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## moki

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*



Bruce5 said:


> Cohiba EL's pyramids:
> Only come with 2001 bands on them.
> I am sorry to dissapoint you but Fred is correct..


In theory, yes... but it appears that SA decided to make 2003 Cohiba EL Piramides mid-stream. These are genuine.


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## moki

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*



Fredster said:


> All of the Padrons pale in comparison to any Cubans I've smoked.


That's a bold statement indeed. I've had a number of of brands/years of Cubans that I've not been particularly fond of, and would take a Padrón 1926 over.



Fredster said:


> The Cohiba L.E. Maduro Torpedo was a 2001 edition cigar not 2003 , that alone tells me they are fake. Also the Reserva cigar has the gold band.


That's the theory, yes. I know that the 2003 Cohiba Piramide ELs are not listed as a EL release on the SA web site -- but I'm positive these cigars are genuine. It wouldn't be the first time that SA changed the rules mid-stream, or did small special releases.

You can not believe they are real if you like, but I know people who have purchased them at official LCDH stores, and I do know the taste of a Cohiba when I smoke one.

There is such a thing as a real Partagas "A" sized Culebra cigar, but you're sure not going to find that on any SA web site either. 



Fredster said:


> Iv'e smoked all of the Padron anniverario,OpusX,Ashton VSG's in the past, I don't know anyone who is smoking real Cubans that would say any of those cigars comes close to comparing with a good Cuban.


Well, you know someone now. I am smoking real Cubans, and I do prefer Padrón 1926's, and Opus X's with some age on 'em to many Cubans that are out there. Shocking, I know.


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## Fredster

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

Bruce was right about the lettering on the Reserva, I guess they did have the gold bands before the rest of the line. As far as the Cohiba L.E. 2003, again it was a 2001 Limitada not a 2003. They do not put 2003 bands on a cigar that was released in 2001. So, either a mix up at the factory, or fake. I suspect the later. I don't think saying, "most if not all experienced Havana smokers would take a good Cuban over the best Padron has to offer" is a bold statement, but a fact. If I'm incorrect, anyone else viewing this thread chime in. I don't mean to disrespect, but everyone I know that has smoked real Cubans have no interest in Opus X or Padrons anymore. But It's your taste buds and if you are happy thats all that matters.


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## IHT

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*



Fredster said:


> I don't mean to disrespect, but everyone I know that has smoked real Cubans have no interest in Opus X or Padrons anymore. But It's your taste buds and if you are happy thats all that matters.


what he said.
maybe you just have bad luck with the cuban cigars you're getting? i don't know what to say, really. i'm not that experienced, but i know what i've tasted. the padrons and other "ultra supreme" domestics don't hand a candle to your average cuban cigar in terms of taste/flavors. it's just strange that you always report of a bad draw or not much flavor from the cuban cigars you're getting...
but that's just me. if you like 'em, that's cool, i just haven't had the luck you have had in finding decent tasting premium domestic cigars.
but i can buy a box of 25 Quintero's for $50 that'll blow away (to me) any PAM or PAN i've ever had.


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## coppertop

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

cuban cigars suck..... 

Hey Moki instead of wasting anymore of those cubans why don't you send them to me and I will be more then happy to put them out of there misery. Very, very slowly. 

u


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## moki

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*



Fredster said:


> Bruce was right about the lettering on the Reserva, I guess they did have the gold bands before the rest of the line. As far as the Cohiba L.E. 2003, again it was a 2001 Limitada not a 2003. They do not put 2003 bands on a cigar that was released in 2001. So, either a mix up at the factory, or fake. I suspect the later.


I'm sorry, but I think you may be wrong -- I do not believe this is a fake cigar, and I doubt it is a mistake. It seems more likely to be a limited production or something SA changed in mid-stream.

However, I'm always willing to entertain the idea that I'm wrong; I suppose it is *possible* that it is a rebranded 2001 EL, but I don't see the point of that? It certainly tasted nicer than the 2003 Cohiba DC EL to me, and it did have that trademark Cohiba taste to it.



Fredster said:


> I don't think saying, "most if not all experienced Havana smokers would take a good Cuban over the best Padron has to offer" is a bold statement, but a fact. If I'm incorrect, anyone else viewing this thread chime in. I don't mean to disrespect, but everyone I know that has smoked real Cubans have no interest in Opus X or Padrons anymore. But It's your taste buds and if you are happy thats all that matters.


Again, I have smoked dozens of different brands of real Cubans, everything from Cuban Davidoffs (#1/LaTour/DP/5000, etc.) to Cuban Dunhills to San Cristobals to RASS to the current EL releases. That you feel the 2003 EL Cohiba Piramide is fake is no doubt influencing your opinion here, and allowing you dismiss me by saying "Well, he's smoking fake Cubans anyway"

I assure you I am not. And I do prefer Opus X's (especially with a few years of age on 'em) and Padron 1926/1964 to many Cubans. So you DO know someone who has smoked many real Cubans, and still prefers the aforementioned domestic cigars to many of them.


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## moki

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*



coppertop said:


> cuban cigars suck.....
> 
> Hey Moki instead of wasting anymore of those cubans why don't you send them to me and I will be more then happy to put them out of there misery. Very, very slowly.


hah! Don't mistake me -- I still enjoy many Cubans as well -- a nice aged RASS is one of my favorites. I'm just not a Castro sycophant.


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## moki

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*



IHT said:


> what he said.
> maybe you just have bad luck with the cuban cigars you're getting? i don't know what to say, really. i'm not that experienced, but i know what i've tasted. the padrons and other "ultra supreme" domestics don't hand a candle to your average cuban cigar in terms of taste/flavors. it's just strange that you always report of a bad draw or not much flavor from the cuban cigars you're getting...


It's unfortunate but true that the construction on many Cubans is just not up to par compared to the high-end domestics. I have never in my life smoked a plugged or tight-drawed Padron. I've had a number of Cubans that unfortunately fall into that category.

Don't get me wrong here -- I love the taste of many Cuban cigars, just as I love the taste of many domestic cigars. I don't think it is fair to dismiss someone's personal taste by trying to claim they must be smoking fake cigars.


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## moki

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

BTW, all of this Cuban vs. Padron/Opus X aside, I am exceedingly interested in finding out exactly what the deal is with these Cohiba 2003 EL Piramides. The odd thing is that to me, they are one of the best tasting SA ELs I've ever had.

Fredster, since you seem to be the most... ahem... skeptical, PM me your address and I'll shoot one out to you.


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## moki

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

I've been gathering some more information on the supposedly fake Cohiba Piramide 2003 ELs

First, in this thread on StogieChat, B-Dub states he purchased them at a LCDH:

http://www.stoggiechat.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Humidor;action=display;num=1085213713

Second, in this thread on Cigar Family, Hotboy states that this is a known issue, and it was decided that the cigars are legit, if oddly banded:

http://www.cigarfamily.com/cf4/thread.cfm?Room=Cigar&threadId=36617

I've also mailed Mitchel (cgarsltd.co.uk), Alex Li, and a few others asking for information on these cigars. Will let you know what I find out.

As it stands now, I believe they are anomalous, but not fake. That's what my taste buds told me too.


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## BoxofRain

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

I friend has some of the Cohiba pir el 03's but i haven't asked him about the year on the band, BUT i do know as i have some and have asked when in cuba about, 3 box's of monte robusto el's with 01 bands but 03 box codes. as well as i saw in an LCDH (at 2 factory stores) a mil reserve jar of cohiba's with a late 02 box code....remember this is Cuba we are talking about.


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## Fredster

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

Getting a box of Monte robustos with an 03 date is probably ok. I have Part.SerieD#3's that are dated JUN02, but they sure as hell don't have 02 bands, they have 01 bands because it was an 01 Limitada. The Monte Robusto is an 01 Limitada, but they keep making them past 01 hence the 03 date, but you will not see an 03 band on a Monte Robusto unless it is fake or somehow got banded wrong at the factory. Same goes for the Cohiba Pyramid L.E., it was an 01 release, that does not mean they aren't still making them, like you saw on the Montes they could have an 02 or 03 date, but I guarantee they do not have an 03 band. The only L.E.'s for 03 (that have an 03 band )are Hoyo Pyramids,Part.SERD#2,Romeo Hermoso,and Cohiba D.C.


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## IHT

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*



moki said:


> I don't think it is fair to dismiss someone's personal taste by trying to claim they must be smoking fake cigars.


i wasn't saying what you have are fakes at all. i'm not knowledgeable enough to say that just by looking at them.
i just find it strange that you are the only person i've read who prefers top end domestics to top end cubans for taste.
i've had a few top end domestics (simply because i don't feel they're good enough for the price they're asking), and i've had some very cheap cubans that (to me) taste far better. sure, the construction on some cubans is lacking, but for the most part, they exceed the majority of domestics in that category.

not disagreeing with your tastebuds at all, my man. i just find it odd that you're the only person i've met who feels this way.

but, if that's what you like, then go for it. i'm not trying to say that all cubans are better and be snobby about it, just that "I" prefer the taste of the majority of cuban cigars over domestics.
hell, my favorite domestic cigar is a cheap ol' Trilogy Authentic Corojo (alec bradley)...


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## moki

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*



IHT said:


> not disagreeing with your tastebuds at all, my man. i just find it odd that you're the only person i've met who feels this way.


For what it's worth, I'm not the only one -- I know many people who just don't think Cubans are the shiznit.

The thing is, even people who know absolutely nothing about cigars believe that "Cubans are the best in the world" because that's the common meme. I think that may have been true 20 years ago, but I think it's more of a cliche today.

But hey, you know -- everyone has their own tastes, I can't take issue with what some people like. The only thing I take issue with is people apologizing for Cubans more than other cigars (construction issues, inconsistencies, etc), and thinking that being a Cuban cigar smoker is the pinnacle of the connoisseur's existence.

There's definitely a bit of elitism going on in terms of the special status given to Cuban cigars and those who are wise enough to prefer them. I don't buy it. Cigars are cigars -- some Cubans are good, some are not. Same with non-Cubans -- and let's face it, premium domestic cigars are in general much better in terms of consistency and construction if nothing else.


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## KingMeatyHand

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*



IHT said:


> hell, my favorite domestic cigar is a cheap ol' Trilogy Authentic Corojo (alec bradley)...


Which I bought a few of (and look forward to smoking soon) because of you raving about them here.

</digression>


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## moki

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*



Fredster said:


> Same goes for the Cohiba Pyramid L.E., it was an 01 release, that does not mean they aren't still making them, like you saw on the Montes they could have an 02 or 03 date, but I guarantee they do not have an 03 band. The only L.E.'s for 03 (that have an 03 band )are Hoyo Pyramids,Part.SERD#2,Romeo Hermoso,and Cohiba D.C.


Again, that's the official word at least according to SA's web site, but that does not mean it is correct by any means. When's the last time you saw Fuente even mention their Añejo's on their web site? Never.

This just in from Alex Li:



> I think they are no problem. Sometimes Habanos would make more when there is
> distributor want. Let me tell you a true story. Por Larranaga Lonsdales
> should be already discontinued. However, one distributor in Switzerland
> ordered 500 boxes of this and garantueed to buy all of this, thus Habanos
> made this last year.(now they already sold out)
> 
> In Cuba, anything can be happened.


Again, you can believe what you like, and I we agree on what SHOULD be -- but what is may be a different matter entirely. I believe these cigars are anomalous but nevertheless real, and not re-branded.

Continuing on, in this thread, shabba says something that mirrors what a number of people I've spoken to have said: "I have seen box's of both 2001 & 2003 cohiba pyramides EL."

http://www.cigarfamily.com/cf4/thread.cfm?Room=Cigar&threadId=34604

...and in this thread:

http://forums.cigarweekly.com/viewtopic.php?t=70419

ak2000 mentions that boxes of BOTH 2001 and 2003 ELs have been seen in Germany at LCDH's.

Short of hauling someone in from Cuba to explain themselves, I think this is enough proof that there is something to what I'm saying here?


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## Pablo

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*



Fredster said:


> All of the Padrons pale in comparison to any Cubans I've smoked. The Cohiba L.E. Maduro Torpedo was a 2001 edition cigar not 2003 , that alone tells me they are fake. Also the Reserva cigar has the gold band. The seleccion reserva was made for the festival Habanos 2003 before that gold styled band came out. Iv'e smoked all of the Padron anniverario,OpusX,Ashton VSG's in the past, I don't know anyone who is smoking real Cubans that would say any of those cigars comes close to comparing with a good Cuban.


Wow, pretty bold statement. You won't find me in your camp. I have smoked many crappy ISOM's. In fact, having smoked as many different cigars as I have, I would say that I have had far more ISOM duds than I have had Premium Padron duds.

I tend to think there are great cigars from countries other than Cuba. I always chuckle when someone is so insistant that the worst Cuban beats the best non-Cuban all the time. Ultimately, though, I guess it is a matter of opinion.


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## Bruce5

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

Fred,
Glad you agreed with me on the gold labels. I do not usually go out on a limb to disagree or correct anyone. 
.
Moki, 
For what it is worth, I have about 20 boxes (not all full) of cubans and 2 boxes of non-cuban cigars. The 2 boxes are Opus X and VSG. 
I have lost my taste for the Padron 64's and 26's. I am hoping I do not 
lose my taste for the two Dominicans, but my experience shows the trend that some of the others here area talking about. I definitely can not smoke most cigars in the average cigar shop in America. 
.
As far as the Cohiba Pyramid EL with the 03 band on it. There are plenty of experienced cuban smokers on this website. I can not believe no one else has chimed in yet to add their opinion. Perhaps someone else here has smoked them as well. I have just not heard of it or seen it ever. I was just at LCDH in St Martins and they did not have it. Venders who have commented on cigars openly have been wrong in the past.


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## poker

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

Personal opinion only chiming in.

For me (and yes, only me), I dont know of many cigars manufactured outside of Cuba that I would prefer over a good Havana. Mind you, I said "good Havana". Like any hand rolled cigar, Havanas, Dominicans, Nicaraguans, etc., all have thier share of problems every now and then but I must admit that usually Havanas have more draw problems then all the rest combined. 
Is it so problematic I would rather smoke a PAM/PAN over a Partagas Selection Privada No. 1? Doubt it, but it depends. If Im in the mood for a Padron, so be it. If its a tight draw or plugged on ANY cigar, I toss it and grab another. Simple. 
Most of the cigars I prefer are cabinet cigars without bands, so nobody knows anyways what Im smoking besides me so its not for status or "looks".

Anyone claiming that non-Havanas never have issues has had better luck than I had in the past.

I even ran into a Fuente cigar that had twine down the length right down the center mixed with the filler (yes, the type of twine one uses for packaging boxes).

Cigars are wonderful in the fact there so many choices for so many people. *Personal taste is subjective* and whats great to one person, another may find that its not for them.

Find a cigar that suits you & the mood & theres not much that can match the satisfaction. Smoke what you like, but like what you smoke. (key words here is "you")


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## Bruce5

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

Moki,
One more thing... I like you style as far as authenticating your cigar.
Mailing one to the most ... ahem ... skeptical person is stepping up to 
the plate and I can certainly respect that. But Fred's thoughts to date
appear accurate to me.


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## moki

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*



pds said:


> Wow, pretty bold statement. You won't find me in your camp. I have smoked many crappy ISOM's. In fact, having smoked as many different cigars as I have, I would say that I have had far more ISOM duds than I have had Premium Padron duds.
> 
> I tend to think there are great cigars from countries other than Cuba. I always chuckle when someone is so insistant that the worst Cuban beats the best non-Cuban all the time. Ultimately, though, I guess it is a matter of opinion.


Well said. I mean what's next, "I eat nothing but Italian cheese because of the particular flavor imbued unto it by the special cows and conditions in Italy. Nothing else is good enough to grace my cracker, and I don't know any serious cheese eaters who like any kind of cheese better than Italian cheese"


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## moki

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*



Bruce5 said:


> Moki,
> For what it is worth, I have about 20 boxes (not all full) of cubans and 2 boxes of non-cuban cigars. The 2 boxes are Opus X and VSG.
> I have lost my taste for the Padron 64's and 26's. I am hoping I do not
> lose my taste for the two Dominicans, but my experience shows the trend that some of the others here area talking about. I definitely can not smoke most cigars in the average cigar shop in America.


Please DO keep me in mind if you wish to unload those boxes of Opus and VSGs... as well as the Padrons. 

Tastes DO vary. I have had a few Siglo VIs, and I think they are the most overpriced, overrated cigar in recent memory. Perhaps time will change that, but the ones I've smoked have been pleasant, but rather flat and uninteresting.

I have a box of 10 stashed away that I'll revisit in a few years, and who knows, maybe they'll change. Similarly, cigars like Opus X's just become fabulous with a few years of age on 'em.



Bruce5 said:


> As far as the Cohiba Pyramid EL with the 03 band on it. There are plenty of experienced cuban smokers on this website. I can not believe no one else has chimed in yet to add their opinion. Perhaps someone else here has smoked them as well. I have just not heard of it or seen it ever. I was just at LCDH in St Martins and they did not have it. Venders who have commented on cigars openly have been wrong in the past.


Bruce, someone here has chimed in with their personal experience in the matter: BoxofRain

But also follow the links I have posted in here -- other people who have been smoking cigars for quite some time have these cigars as well. There are also a number of people who personally posted saying they saw these cigars in various LCDHs.

Unless we're to believe they are all lying, I don't see what other conclusion there is to come to, other than this is some oddity, but real nevertheless. We're not talking about shills peddling fake Cubans or anything; we're talking about these cigars seen and purchased at LCDHs in various countries.

Fredster hasn't PM'd me his address, so I don't know what to do from here -- except to say I'm confident these are the real deal. Bruce, if you'd like one sent to you, I'd be more than happy to oblige -- PM me your address.


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## moki

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

Hopefully this settles it?

Ah, here is some very good information on the subject from someone in the know, who spoke to people at Habanos SA. (reposted with permission)

.....

Hi Andrew,

In October and Nov of 2003 Habanos made a production run of Cohiba Piramides and RJ Robustos - Limitadas from 2002. I confronted Habanos and was told they had not been made. So I brought a production manager from Habanos into the conversation. *He confirmed that they indeed made the cigars, but put the wrong band 2003 instead of 2001.* I have seen some cigars that had the outside band 2003, but the inside the cigars had 2001 ring. I have also seen them with both inside and outside bands of 2003.

The last few boxes I have sold ( that were purchased in Havana) were in fact the 2003 production cigars. So they are real. I have still a few boxes from the original 2002 run with 2001 rings, but the wrappers are not very dark.

Hope that helps.

Warmest wishes.

Mitchell
C.Gars Ltd
& Turmeaus tobacconist est 1817
www.cgarsltd.co.uk
www.humidorsonline.co.uk
www.agedcubans.com


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## Fredster

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

I, like Poker, smoke more Cuban cabinets than dress boxes, I smoke what tastes good to me and don't care if the cigars have bands or not, or their origin. Every Dominican or Nicuraguan cigar I have tried are not satisfying to my tastes after smoking Cubans. Not satisfying in strength or complexity, when compared with a good Cuban. The quality on Cubans over the years is not as good as the premium domestics, you'll get no argument from me there. But I will gladly take a plugged cigar here and there over a perfect drawing dom. that does not satisfy my tastes. Also Iv'e got over 30 boxes of Cubans, not all full either, from 01-04. Of those boxes I've smoked from , and ones that are already gone, I can count the number of plugged on one hand. The quality has improved vastly and they are using draw machines now. If you are getting a lot of plugged cigars still, thats another reason to dought your cigars authenticity. I've smoked underfilled Opus's and a couple plugged ann. Padrons. These Domestics are produced in number, a small fraction of what Habanos s.a. puts out. Your entitled to your opinion, but why do I have to read your NON HABANOS REVIEWS in the HABANOS REVIEW SECTION all the time? They all end the same, the Padron blows every Cuban away. :s


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## Fredster

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

P.S. Moki,
Iv'e sent a P.M. I'll send you something also to compare to your Padrons. 
Fred.


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## Fredster

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

PDS
In reguards to your statements, I have never said the worst Cuban beats the best Dom. I have had some Cubans that are just unsmokeable. I would say that I would not hesitate to take a Part. Ser.D4,short, or a Boli P.C., over the best Dom. out there, reguardless of it's price or maybe bigger size. Youll get no argument that the Opus's and Padrons are very consistant. I will gladly accept bad cigars here and there that blow me away when on, to cigars that are always the same, but the flavor and strength just are not there. Iv'e even smoked an Opus X A, that was gifted to me in a nice coffin with several years age, and I can honestly say it did not impress me at all. Very weak almost like smoking air. If I smoked it after a heavy meal I probably would not have tasted it at all. Iv'e smoke a couple Domestics cigars Ashton VSG,Carlos Tor.) that had near Cuban strength, but tasted exactly the same from beginning to end. No complexity whatsoever. If they had a Dom. that tasted as good to me, I would be all over it. Be a hell of a lot easier than rolling the dice on Cubans. I sure as hell don't smoke Cubans for status or to say I do. I smoke more cigars by myself than I do with other people.


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## BoxofRain

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*



moki said:


> Hopefully this settles it?
> 
> Limitadas from 2002.
> There was no 2002 run of El's 00 01 and 03


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## Fredster

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*



BoxofRain said:


> moki said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hopefully this settles it?
> 
> Limitadas from 2002.
> There was no 2002 run of El's 00 01 and 03
> 
> 
> 
> Wanna bet! :c Like I said, I have Part. Ser.D#3 with a jun 02 date on bottom of box. They do not however have 02 bands, this is a 01 Limitada, it does not matter when they were made. They don't just make these Limitadas for the year they are released. If you look on the bottom of the 03 Limitadas boxes (Hoyo Pyr.,Romeo Herm.,Part Ser.d#2,or CohibaD.C)they are already starting to have 04 dates because most of the 03's have been bought. The bands will say 03 though.
Click to expand...


----------



## TheBeast

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

It appears to me that they've continued to run production of the 01's in both 2002 and 2003, yet continuing to band them as 01's. Would explain why the 01's haven't seemed to run out. Atleast inregards to this information from Mitchell. Interesting, if true. I assumed if you had a Limited pruduction cigar for a particular year that there would be only one run for that year and cigar. To continue producing that cigar years after and banded it as 01' seems a little misleading.IMO Anyway...who knows.


----------



## BoxofRain

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*



Fredster said:


> Wanna bet!


YES i wanna bet. There was no 02 el.......not there were no el's made in 02, but there were no 02 released el's they were 00 01 and 03


----------



## Fredster

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

Thats what I'm saying, your not paying attention! I have Partagas SerieD#3 (yes this is a 01 Limitada not 02)that were made in JUN02. The box and bands both say 01 limitada but they were made in 02. I also have Romeo Robusto's, this is an 01 Limitada also, says so on the bands and across top corner of box, but they were date stamped ABR02. That is when they were made.


----------



## TheBeast

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

Basically the "dated" bands are nothing more than the introduction year for those particular vitolas in the El series. It seems anyway.


----------



## Fredster

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

The Beast,
Yes 100 % correct. And as far as I know the bands should not change reguardless of when they were produced. Mitch says he has seen 03 bands end up on some of the Co.Pyr.'s, which is strange because they should have 01 bands. They were an 01 Limitada. Box of rain is right there were no 02 Limitadas, but there were 01 limitadas made in 02. The Cubans are always doing strange things though. I questioned the cigars authenticity not just based on that, but because Mokie says he preferred Padrons to them, and because the B on a couple of the bands looks a little different. I sure would take the Cohiba over a Padron anyday, but his tastebuds are obviously different than mine. I'm not saying I couldn't be wrong, he offered to send me one to try, and if it's real I'll be quick to admit it. I've smoked plenty of these cigars. I'm also sending him something to compare the Padrons to. (not just trying to mooch a cigar, Iv'e got over 30 boxes at the present.


----------



## BoxofRain

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*



Fredster said:


> Thats what I'm saying, your not paying attention! I have Partagas SerieD#3 (but they were date stamped ABR02. That is when they were made.


No thats when they left the factory .ABR02.


----------



## Fredster

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

Left the factory, or were made is basically the same thing. The whole process doesn't take that long.The last step of the manufactoring process is the boxing of the cigars and stamping the box with the factory code and date. From what I have heard, they are at that point ready to leave the factory. Whether they do or sit a few days or weeks I don't know or care. The 01 Limitadas I have were made in and left the factory in 02. I guarantee they didn't make them in 01 then let them sit until june02 before leaving the factory. These cigars are in high demand.


----------



## moki

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*



Fredster said:


> The Beast,
> Yes 100 % correct. And as far as I know the bands should not change reguardless of when they were produced. Mitch says he has seen 03 bands end up on some of the Co.Pyr.'s, which is strange because they should have 01 bands. They were an 01 Limitada.


Oh c'mon man. You're saying Mitch is lying or wrong now too?

All you need to say is "That's odd, it shouldn't be like that, but it looks like there really are some 2003 Cohiba Piramide ELs -- sorry for doubting you"

I'm sorry the fact that I prefer some domestics over some Cubans bothers you so much, but geez, don't let it blind you to the facts here.


----------



## moki

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

Guys, this is ridiculous. To review:

1) I've had many Cuban Cohibas before, and this Cohiba Piramide EL with a 2003 EL band fit right in profile in terms of taste

2) A number of people from various places have stated they saw and bought Cohiba Piramide EL 2003s from LCDH's in various cities around the world

3) Alex Li chimed in saying while he had no knowledge of such a thing, it wouldn't surprise him at all, and believes that if the taste profile is right, they are real

4) Mitchell has chimed in saying that he *spoke to a production manager* at Habanos SA, and was told they *did indeed* make Cohiba Piramide ELs with 2003 bands on them.

5) This issue has come up before on other boards, and it was settled that the cigars were real, and it was some kind of production anomaly, such as continuing to produce the cigars while not having any more 2001 bands.

I don't know what more proof anyone needs; I mean I think the situation is pretty clear here. It's something that shouldn't be, yet very much is. To believe otherwise is to believe all of these people are lying.

C'mon folks. Let's be realistic here.


----------



## coppertop

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

Listen guys I have an idea.....why don't we all whip out our d*cks and see who is biggest  . I have been reading this thread going on 2 days. If Moki prefers NC over cubans thats his perogative.

When Fredster gets the Cohiba from Moki this will be settled. Fredster is a good guy, and if they are real he will say so and admit his mistakes.

Me for one I would rather smoke a Cuban over a NC. I like the changes in a Cuban...from chocolate to spice and earth..............something about that appeals to me. Moki has admitted he likes Cubans, just prefers Doms over them because they are more consistent in build and flavor. Right, if I'm wrong I know I'll be corrected. Yes I have had bad draw problems with a cuban but I can say the same about a NC. I has a Partagas Black that tasted like..well I wanted to u . But the Excalibur I had the previous night was good. Anyway I thought I would add my .02 to this thread.

Fred hopefully I will have those SCdH by tomorrow, if not I will get them next week and ship them out to you ASAP.


----------



## Fredster

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

I'm not saying Mitch is lying or wrong. Iv'e been dealing with him since 97 and trust him completely. If you said the cigars were from him I would have no doubt they were real, but you said someone else told you they got them at L.C.D.H. Like I said I could very well be wrong, but I'm skeptical of anything I have not smelled and tasted myself. I don't really care either way. Like I said, if you want to send me one to try, I will, and if it's real I'll say I was wrong, and you have different tastes than myself and all of the people I smoke cigars with. I'll gladly send you something in return, let me know and I'll see if I have. I just don't know why you keep putting Non Habanos cigars in the Habanos review section and always saying the Padrons are better. I'm not rating Cubans in the Non-Habanos review section and ending every review with, as usual the Cuban cigar is better than the Padron ( even though thats my opinion). I agree to disagree on this topic, and I'm done arguing.


----------



## IHT

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*



moki said:


> Tastes DO vary. I have had a few Siglo VIs, and I think they are the most overpriced, overrated cigar in recent memory. Perhaps time will change that, but the ones I've smoked have been pleasant, but rather flat and uninteresting.


i'm not a cohiba fan in the least bit. so this does not surpise me at all. i said it on an earlier topic about the CoRo, i've had cheapo Don Asa's off of c-bid that have tasted exactly the same (actually better) than the cuban CoRo.

i don't like asparagus, but i love spinach.


----------



## Pablo

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

I think this is one of those "discussions" that go on forever without resolution. Tastes vary...just check out the review database at T25C. Some people like Cubans, some people don't. An opinion is an opinion, and never wrong since it is one persons version.


----------



## Fredster

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

IHT,
Let me know if that CoHo I sent coppertop changes your mind. I'm sure he'll give you a couple puffs if your around when he smokes it.


----------



## Fredster

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

Opinions are like a""holes, everybodys got one.  And your right, in the end all that matters is you enjoy what your smoking!


----------



## coppertop

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

Only if he is lucky  

J/K I was planning on doing just that. Since he gave me a few puffs of his. I am curious to see how the one you sent tastes. I'll let you know.


----------



## moki

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*



Fredster said:


> I'm not saying Mitch is lying or wrong. Iv'e been dealing with him since 97 and trust him completely. If you said the cigars were from him I would have no doubt they were real, but you said someone else told you they got them at L.C.D.H. Like I said I could very well be wrong, but I'm skeptical of anything I have not smelled and tasted myself.


Fair enough; you doubt what I have here; I'll send you one, and we can settle that.

But given that Mitch and everyone else has said there IS such a thing as a Cohiba Piramide 2003 EL, do you now agree that such a thing at least exists, and is not fake?


----------



## SilvrBck

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

This whole debate simply reinforces the placement of the thread entitled "ISOMS are a pain in the ass" in the club stogie hall of fame. 

SB


----------



## MoTheMan

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

What a great discussion!!

Just can't help but think what Dr. Sigmund Freud said when he was asked if there was a deeper or unconscioius meaning behind smoking cigars. He replied, "Well, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar".


----------



## MoTheMan

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*



Bruce5 said:


> Moki,
> For what it is worth, I have about 20 boxes (not all full) of cubans and 2 boxes of non-cuban cigars. The 2 boxes are Opus X and VSG.
> I have lost my taste for the Padron 64's and 26's. I am hoping I do not
> lose my taste for the two Dominicans, but my experience shows the trend that some of the others here area talking about. I definitely can not smoke most cigars in the average cigar shop in America.


Whoa! Bruce!!
I remember, way back when you were just a newbie, dude. Sure must be a lot of Darth Vaders over by where you live to have brought you so far into the *Dark Side*

*[Bwa-ha-ha-ha]*


----------



## Fredster

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

Moki,
If Mitch says he's seen the 01 Pyramids L.E. with 03 bands, then yes definately they could be real. On a different note, your pictures of that cigar club are awsome. Very cool place. Nowhere you can smoke in Fl. anymore that serves food.  Iv'e recently built a cigar room onto my house. I can now go there and have a smoke in the A/C without roasting in this Fl. heat. You said you have smoked Cuban Davidoffs, how do you think they compare to Padrons. I know ,not really apples to apples since the Dav. have 20 years age (and cost more), but just curious if you think these are better.


----------



## jimmy

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*



Fredster said:


> Opinions are like a""holes, everybodys got one.


and they all stink!


----------



## poker

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

My sig pic says it all... LOL


----------



## moki

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*



Fredster said:


> Moki,
> If Mitch says he's seen the 01 Pyramids L.E. with 03 bands, then yes definately they could be real.


Alright, I'm glad we at least agree that there is such a thing as a Cohiba Piramide EL with a 2003 band on it. The evidence is overwhelming that such a thing exists; it shouldn't, but it does: another SA aberration.

So we're halfway home to clearly my good name.  I'll mail you the Cohiba Piramide 2003 EL that I have tomorrow.


----------



## Bruce5

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

Moki - 
Again I like your style and appreciate the offer to mail me the stick.
If I was not moving to a new/unk address in 2 weeks, I would take 
you up on your offer and mail you a "DOMINICAN".... HA HA, just kidding.
I certainly would trade with you anytime, just PM me. 
.
FYI - The vender you mentioned most when making your arguements has been found wrong on more than one occasion before. Just a few weeks ago he was incorrect about the Montecristo Edmundos and was previously wrong about these 96 Partagas'. Please understand that I am not saying anything bad as I have ordered from him before and been quite happy... I am just trying to say that as a source in proving an arguement, quoting venders is not the "end all".


----------



## moki

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

Bruce, agreed, no one vendor always knows everything -- but when you look at the totality of the picture here -- various people seeing and buying them in LCDH's in different cities, people who have smoked them and know cigars vouching for them, and Mitchell speaking to someone at SA and being told that they are legit... I think it's pretty clear that they DO exist, even though they shouldn't, and that some are indeed the real deal.

Now, that doesn't make *mine* real, but it at least demonstrates that some are real, unless there is some mass conspiracy going on here. 

And we all agree there *should not* be Cohiba Piramide ELs with 2003 bands on them, but there are, and there's plenty of evidence to support that they came from official production in Cuba.

Short of hauling in the worker who stuck the bands on and torturing him for information, I don't know what else to do. I did mail LCDH to see if they had anything to say on the subject, but I'm not exactly expecting a reply. 

BTW, I will also say that the Cohiba Piramide 2003 EL is a damn fine cigar; I liked it better than the Cohiba DC 2003 EL that people are raving about.


----------



## moki

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

Alright, a package has been boxed up for Fredster -- the plot will thicken in 2-3 business days.


----------



## moki

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

Two things of note:

I sent Fredster both a 2001 and a 2003 banded Cohiba EL Piramide, so he can do a side by side comparison of them. They are from two entirely different sources, and I can obtain the boxcode for the 2001 EL if needs be.

Secondly, Fredster and I agree on something! Neither of us care for the comparatively mild taste of the Opus X "A" and consider them not worth it.


----------



## Fredster

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

Thanks Moki. Look forward to trying. After talking with you more in private, I don't see how they could be fake. Iv'e smoked a few of the D.C. and the pyramids, and honestly for the price neither blows me away like other regular Cubans I've smoked lately. But I would still trade you any Padrons or Opus X for them If I had. I am sending a couple of my current favs, please review them when you can. If you still prefer the Domestics, then so be it. Taste is subjective as you've said. Keep smoking and have a great weekend.  
Fred.


----------



## moki

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

While we wait for the cigars to arrive and the fun to begin, this adds some interesting fodder to the fire. Ran into someone on CigarWeekly.com who lives in a city in Australia I spent some time; he has smoked only Cubans for years. Most of the domestics we can get here simply aren't available in Australia.

In other words, the polar opposite situation and psychology we have here in the states.

I sent him some non-Cuban cigars to see what he thought; while one person's opinion is just that, it's still interesting:

http://forums.cigarweekly.com/viewtopic.php?p=1006635

Curious to see how it goes with the rest of the smokes I sent him.


----------



## IHT

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

i've always liked perdomos as well... they just need a LOT of time to dry out, they all seem so wet when you get them...

but they are a very good cigar, except "the cigar" by perdomo... that is the definition of "burnt ass-hair with a hint of volcanic ash".

i also like the torano exodus gold series...

i'll have to try one of those perdomos next time i see one. i like their la tradicion series as well as the perdomo2.
i might have to go purchase some.. i have a whopping 20 or fewer domestic cigars in my humidor now, runnin low.


----------



## Bruce5

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

Moki - good job.
I tried to help someone authenticate some Edmundos for someone on this site a few weeks back, but he has seemed to fade away. 
Fred - I guess its on you now.


----------



## Fredster

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

I'll give it a 100% honest review. I Don't like these L.E. Cohibas as much as I do some of the regular Cohiba line, but I will be shocked if I think they are not better than a Padron or OpusX.


----------



## moki

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*



Fredster said:


> I'll give it a 100% honest review. I Don't like these L.E. Cohibas as much as I do some of the regular Cohiba line, but I will be shocked if I think they are not better than a Padron or OpusX.


erm... it isn't about whether you like them more than Padróns or Opus X's... that's just your personal opinion. It's about whether they are real or fake.

This whole discussion started because you (and in a more subdued manner, Bruce) stated that the Cohiba 2003 LE Piramide was fake. We've now established that such a thing really does exist, and is real.

What's next is to establish whether you think the ones *I* have are real or fake.

Whether you like them more or less than anything else isn't relevant, because that's just your personal taste.


----------



## Fredster

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

It is relevant to me to see if the cigars you have are not only real, but how they compare to the other cigars you think are better. I'm curious if they taste the same as the limitadas I've had, or they are duds. I think it's relevant to a lot of people reading these reviews also. A lot of times I buy cigars based on other peoples reviews or insights. It doesn't make you wrong if I say "they are real and better", but I have a right to state my opinion also. BTW, I tried to reach Mitch to ask a couple questions after you posted his response, and they said he was in Italy. Still have not heard from him, you must have caught him just before he left.


----------



## moki

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*



Fredster said:


> It is relevant to me to see if the cigars you have are not only real, but how they compare to the other cigars you think are better. I'm curious if they taste the same as the limitadas I've had, or they are duds. I think it's relevant to a lot of people reading these reviews also. A lot of times I buy cigars based on other peoples reviews or insights. It doesn't make you wrong if I say "they are real and better", but I have a right to state my opinion also. BTW, I tried to reach Mitch to ask a couple questions after you posted his response, and they said he was in Italy. Still have not heard from him, you must have caught him just before he left.


Given your penchant for Cubans, and your distaste for Opus X cigars and all things non-Cuban, I don't see the point of the comparison -- the result is already known. 

As for Mitchell, try emailing him. I'm guessing he keeps up with emails while on the road.


----------



## Fredster

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

The cigars arrived today. Both Pyramids look to be the same size, however the 03, at the head comes to a point that is off center. I've never seen that before. These two cigars smell nothing a like. The 01 smells like Cuban tobacco. The foot of the 03 smells like cheap Dominican or Mexican filler. My wife knows nothing about cigars, but has a very keen sense of smell. She said the 01 smells like the rest of my cigars in my humi, and the 03 smelled like a cheap cigar, like something you would get at the convenient store. At this point I don't need to light to tell this 03 is fake. Ok, I lit it anyway, about an inch into this thing it is 100% clear this is fake, can't finish. I have absolutely no doubt. The 01 however is real, and I enjoyed smoking it. Thank you. I believe you said these are from different sources, the source on the 03's is getting fakes. I have seen no evidence that 03 bands have been put on these cigars, I still have not recieved an answer from Mitch. Not saying you are a liar, just that I have not seen or heard evidence that such a cigar even exists. The 01 was the same as the others I have smoked. Med bodied, decent smoke. Definately better Cubans and Limitadas out there. I would still prefer this to an equally priced Padron, but thats just me. I'm sending you some cigars that I feel are excellent Cubans. I guarantee none will be plugged. All I ask is that you open your mind and give these an honest review as I have. Thanks for the aged Opus, I'll let you know what I think. If you still think there are no Cubans that are better than Padrons after smoking these, then I guess thats just your tastes, as these are some of the best out there, and are real.


----------



## moki

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*



Fredster said:


> The cigars arrived today. Both Pyramids look to be the same size, however the 03, at the head comes to a point that is off center. I've never seen that before. These two cigars smell nothing a like. The 01 smells like Cuban tobacco. The foot of the 03 smells like cheap Dominican or Mexican filler. My wife knows nothing about cigars, but has a very keen sense of smell. She said the 01 smells like the rest of my cigars in my humi, and the 03 smelled like a cheap cigar, like something you would get at the convenient store. At this point I don't need to light to tell this 03 is fake. Ok, I lit it anyway, about an inch into this thing it is 100% clear this is fake, can't finish. I have absolutely no doubt. The 01 however is real, and I enjoyed smoking it. Thank you..


muahhaha... now for my confession.

Actually, this was a plan concocted with the aid of someone else here... I switched the bands on ya, Fred.

The 01 that you liked and enjoyed is actually the 03-banded cigar in question. I'm glad we've put this to rest. Not only do the 2003 Cohiba Piramide ELs exist (as per MO and others), but also the specific 2003 ones I smoked are real.

Sorry Fred, had to do it. 

Here's how it went down. I was discussing the whole "fake 2003 EL" issue with a member here (I won't reveal his identity; I'll leave that up to him). I'd already packaged up what I was sending you (the 2003 Cohiba EL Piramide and the aged Opus X).

He mentioned to me that I should send you both a 2003 EL and a 2001 EL, and switch the bands. It was an excellent idea, but I didn't have any 2001 ELs on hand, and I'd already packaged the box for you.

If you recall, my first PM to you, I mentioned that I was sending 1 Cohiba 2003 EL Piramide and 1 Opus X Robusto 1999.

Later on that night, I went to my local smoke shop and someone there offered me a Cohiba 2001 EL Piramide. Quite fortuitous. I came home, opened up your package, switched the bands, and included both cigars as well as the Opus X.

If you notice, the package I sent you was already opened, and had been resealed and taped. I then messaged you to tell you I was sending you BOTH a 2001 and 2003 EL.

*The one you smoked and authenticated as real was the 2003 Cohiba EL Piramide.*

As for the switched-band EL that you state is fake; that certainly could be true, I didn't bother authenticating it at all, but I'll ask the guy at the local club for his box code. It would not shock me if he's smoking fakes; but I believe he has a full box of 'em, so I can at least inspect that.


----------



## coppertop

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*



moki said:


> muahhaha... now for my confession.
> 
> Actually, this was a plan concocted with the aid of someone else here... I switched the bands on ya, Fred.
> 
> The 01 that you liked and enjoyed is actually the 03-banded cigar in question. I'm glad we've put this to rest. Not only do the 2003 Cohiba Piramide ELs exist (as per MO and others), but also the specific 2003 ones I smoked are real.
> 
> Sorry Fred, had to do it.
> 
> Here's how it went down. I was discussing the whole "fake 2003 EL" issue with a member here (I won't reveal his identity; I'll leave that up to him). I'd already packaged up what I was sending you (the 2003 Cohiba EL Piramide and the aged Opus X).
> 
> He mentioned to me that I should send you both a 2003 EL and a 2001 EL, and switch the bands. It was an excellent idea, but I didn't have any 2001 ELs on hand, and I'd already packaged the box for you.
> 
> If you recall, my first PM to you, I mentioned that I was sending 1 Cohiba 2003 EL Piramide and 1 Opus X Robusto 1999.
> 
> Later on that night, I went to my local smoke shop and someone there offered me a Cohiba 2001 EL Piramide. Quite fortuitous. I came home, opened up your package, switched the bands, and included both cigars as well as the Opus X.
> 
> If you notice, the package I sent you was already opened, and had been resealed and taped. I then messaged you to tell you I was sending you BOTH a 2001 and 2003 EL.
> 
> *The one you smoked and authenticated as real was the 2003 Cohiba EL Piramide.*
> 
> As for the switched-band EL that you state is fake; that certainly could be true, I didn't bother authenticating it at all, but I'll ask the guy at the local club for his box code. It would not shock me if he's smoking fakes; but I believe he has a full box of 'em, so I can at least inspect that.


I will say that was might tricky........however.....how does Fred know you aren't BS him. I, for one wouldn't trust someone who pulled that. But that is just me.

Fred could have a totally different reaction. And Fred I haven't forgot the SC aren't here yet. But as soon as I get them I'll send yours out.

u


----------



## moki

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*



coppertop said:


> I will say that was might tricky........however.....how does Fred know you aren't BS him. I, for one wouldn't trust someone who pulled that. But that is just me.


Well, first of all, I'm a little offended that anyone would think I'd purposefully lie about such a thing, but I suppose that reaction is understandable. I'm sure the person who was in on the scheme will reveal himself, and validate the story.

In any event, it wasn't done to trick him so much as to eliminate any potential bias. I think it was quite a clever idea, actually.


----------



## coppertop

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

If I was an actual Cuban why the need to elimanate any bias. By that statement I gather you don't trust Fred to be biased. So why should anyone here trust you now. It doesn't matter who your partner in crime was, that is besides the point. You were argueing that the 2003 EL was real, then you send Fred a fake 2001 with the real 2003 band on it?????? You may think what you did was clever. However I think it was more like a trick a kid would play on someone he didn't like.

If you must be tricky to prove a point then why bother. I think that you should have stuck to your original plan and just sent the 2003 and 99 Opus X. If the 03 was real Fred would have said so.



> Well, first of all, I'm a little offended that anyone would think I'd purposefully lie about such a thing


There is only 1 person one this BB that knows me. Only he knows if I would ever lie...period. The others who I have done buisness with and talked to via email, I consider friends. But they no more know me then I do them. And any respect/trust that we may/may not have for each other was earned by being honest. My point is I don't know you, and neither does Fred. So don't act all shocked that someone may think you lied. When all anyone know is your online personality. Now I'm not saying your a liar. More then likely your not. But tricking someone isn't a good way to earn trust.

IMHO


----------



## Treyjo43

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

I gotta admit that what you did was kinda shady. Your intention was to send a cigar to a reputiable member of CS so he could confirm it's orgin, but you don't trust him enough to give an unbiased answer WTF? Why the need to trick him and make him look like a fool?


----------



## KingMeatyHand

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

Being relatively new I don't want to slag anyone, but I am perplexed on not only the reasoning behind the switch, but the manner in which it was done.

Sending an obviously fake cigar along with the one in question doesn't really make a lot of sense unless the intent was humiliation. Even switching the bands is somewhat self defeating since the power of suggestion and familiarity levels have been manipulated. Removing the bands completely would have been a much cleaner and logical approach.

Fred has been nothing but genuine and stand-up with me since I started coming here. I can only assume that he's been that way with everyone else so I'm not sure why he wasn't trusted to begin with.


----------



## moki

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*



Treyjo43 said:


> I gotta admit that what you did was kinda shady. Your intention was to send a cigar to a reputiable member of CS so he could confirm it's orgin, but you don't trust him enough to give an unbiased answer WTF? Why the need to trick him and make him look like a fool?


No attempt was made to make anyone look foolish -- you're reading far too much into it. The fact is that we are all prisoners of our biases; this is why blind taste tests are done.

If I've offended anyone, then I apologize; but I think this is a little blown out of proportion. The switching of the bands seemed like a good idea, in order to obtain a truly objective opinion on them both.


----------



## moki

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*



KingMeatyHand said:


> Sending an obviously fake cigar along with the one in question doesn't really make a lot of sense unless the intent was humiliation.


Give me a break. :s Fredster and I both have the same join date, and about the same number of posts here; yet I was essentially told that I didn't know what I was talking about, that I was smoking fakes, and it was insinuated that I was lying about the cigars I stated were real.

Even after all sorts of evidence from respected people like Mitchell came in, the doubt and aspersions remained... so please, don't make this about trust. If it were about trust, this thread would have died on page 2, and everyone agreed that the cigars I stated were real Cuban Cohiba Piramide ELs were just that.

HOWEVER, this was not done in any way to be spiteful, or to humiliate anyone. I honestly was just going to send the one 2003 EL and the Opus X to him as stated; the seed that got planted, though, seemed like a remarkably good idea.

I've seen many blind taste test done with cigars, wine, and other things -- and the results are often dramatically different than when the people know what it is they are drinking/smoking. If we're interested in an objective opinion on what these cigars are, switching the bands does just that.

Nothing more was intended; apologies to Fredster if he is the least bit offended, but c'mon guys... get real. This was not done out of nefarious intent.


----------



## KingMeatyHand

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*



moki said:


> I've seen many blind taste test done with cigars, wine, and other things -- and the results are often dramatically different than when the people know what it is they are drinking/smoking. If we're interested in an objective opinion on what these cigars are, switching the bands does just that.


Blind being the operative word here. Switching the bands does not create an objective opinion, but removing them would.

I'm not trying to start a war and didn't mean to make you defensive with my post. Hell, I enjoy your posts and agree with you that not every leaf out of Cuba outshines all others. I don't think you had "nefarious intent" but I do think Fred deserved a straight up shot for his review.


----------



## moki

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*



KingMeatyHand said:


> Blind being the operative word here. Switching the bands does not create an objective opinion, but removing them would.


Fair enough, I agree, that would have been the best way to handle it.


----------



## Fredster

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

Moki,
No offense taken. I agree though, the proper way to handle would have been to send both unbanded and let me decide. You've proved nothing ,other than the cigar you put the 03 band on was fake. I've smoke nothing but Cubans for abou 8 years and don't need bands to authenticate a cigar ,9 times out of 10 I can tell without lighting. This was the case with the cigar that had the 03 band. Fake as a 3 dollar bill. Smelled like a white owl. Surprised you could not tell. You say someone gave it to you, ummm ok. You were the one that claims all cigars reviewed should be smoked unbanded. This also confirms what I said about the average Joe is smoking fakes. Walk up to anyone in a cigar bar or wherever and smell they're supposed Cuban cigar. If the average person could walk in to a cigar store here and buy a box of Part.Serie D#4's for the same or less than an OpusX robusto, I think it would be safe to say they wouldn't sell many OpusX's at 14.00 ea. BTW strange Mitch has not responded yet, I will try to email him again.


----------



## Fredster

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

BTW,
We may have the same amount of posts and join date is the same, but I have smoked cigars over ten years. Nothing but Cubans for the last 8. Might be some guys here that have smoked Cubans longer, not the point. The point is I know WTF I'm talking about when it comes to them. You say you smoke a few Cubans, but mainly Domestics. Big difference.


----------



## mr.c

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

interesting thread to say the least...... Here is a place that has the 03 le real or fake

COHIBA 
Code Product Name Size
(gauge&lenght mm) From
C/A Box Code Our Best Price HK$Box Price US$/Box Quantity of Box 
Co_01 Cohiba Siglo II 25'S 42 & 129 89 FRH NOV03 1,650 211 
Co_02 Cohiba Siglo III 25'S 42 & 155 90 NPD DIC03 2,049 262 
Co_03 Cohiba Siglo IV 25'S 46 & 143 86 GKI DIC03 2,252 288 
*Co_04 Cohiba Piramides LE Maduro 25'S 52 & 156 90 CUE MAY03 3,700 473*

Co_05 Cohiba Robustos 25'S 50 & 124 90 AIS OCT 03 2,650 339


----------



## Fredster

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

Mr. C, If I'm reading this right, it says they are 04 Cohiba Pyramids with a 03 production date? Now there is an 04 and 03? This makes no sense at all. It would be like all the sudden other 01 Limitadas like the Monte robusto or Romeo robusto or Hoyo Particulars started having 03 and 04 bands. Could you PM me the website you saw this on, I'll check with Habanos s.a. and see if it's a legit website.


----------



## mr.c

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

co o4 is just a product code for the vendor - nothing to do wit the cigars

This place had a pic of a box of Le's with the "2003" band - I cant find that now - maybe he will be nice enough to e mail it to you.

pm sent - give me a minute


----------



## Fredster

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

Oops, I guess it's just saying they are 04 on the list and were made in May03. It doesn't say they are an 03 Limitada though. I have Romeo robustos,Monte robustos, and Part. SerieD#3, that all were made in 02. The bands however still say 01 Limitadas as they are 01 limitadas. Kind of confusing, these cigars are still made after the year they are introduced, however the bands should not change reguardless of when they are made. I'm not sure how long they continue to make these Limitadas after they are introduced, any Gorillas out there have any 01 limitadas with a date later than 02? (other than Moki)


----------



## moki

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

Oh for god's sake, Fredster. Apparently this entire thread has been pointless, because you made up your mind weeks ago, and any evidence to the contrary will not sway you. Repeat after me: There are real Cuban Cohiba 2003 EL Piramides. Moki smoked one, and he sent you one, and you smoked it and deemed it to be the real deal.

End of story.



Fredster said:


> Moki,
> No offense taken. I agree though, the proper way to handle would have been to send both unbanded and let me decide. You've proved nothing ,other than the cigar you put the 03 band on was fake. I've smoke nothing but Cubans for abou 8 years and don't need bands to authenticate a cigar ,9 times out of 10 I can tell without lighting. This was the case with the cigar that had the 03 band. Fake as a 3 dollar bill. Smelled like a white owl. Surprised you could not tell. You say someone gave it to you, ummm ok. You were the one that claims all cigars reviewed should be smoked unbanded. This also confirms what I said about the average Joe is smoking fakes. Walk up to anyone in a cigar bar or wherever and smell they're supposed Cuban cigar. If the average person could walk in to a cigar store here and buy a box of Part.Serie D#4's for the same or less than an OpusX robusto, I think it would be safe to say they wouldn't sell many OpusX's at 14.00 ea. BTW strange Mitch has not responded yet, I will try to email him again.


----------



## poker

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

I think I'll stick to my Partagas Selecion Privada No 1's and not worry bout all this el non-el stuff LOL


----------



## moki

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*



Fredster said:


> I'm not sure how long they continue to make these Limitadas after they are introduced, any Gorillas out there have any 01 limitadas with a date later than 02? (other than Moki)


BoxOfRain chimed in here as well, Fredster, a few pages back.

You're welcome to carry on with your skepticism all you like, as far as I'm concerned, the case is closed.

I've seen a bunch of people who've bought and smoked 2003 Cohiba EL Piramides; I've pointed you to some threads were people have posted about it. People have mentioned buying them from LCDHs in various countries.

Mitchell stated that he talked to a production manager at SA who stated they are real, and Mitchell sells these 2003 Cohiba Piramide ELs too.

I sent you the exact cigar I smoked in this original review, with the band swapped as per a recommendation -- you deemed it to be the real deal.

*You now have exactly two choices*:

1) Accept that you were wrong
2) Claim that I am lying about everything

Just keep in mind that #2 would mean: fabricating dozens of posts from various people on various web boards, fabricating emails from Mitchell, fabricating emails from Alex Li, lying about switching the bands, and so on and so forth.

You choose.


----------



## moki

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*



Fredster said:


> BTW,
> We may have the same amount of posts and join date is the same, but I have smoked cigars over ten years. Nothing but Cubans for the last 8. Might be some guys here that have smoked Cubans longer, not the point. The point is I know WTF I'm talking about when it comes to them. You say you smoke a few Cubans, but mainly Domestics. Big difference.


Actually, I don't recall ever saying that. What I did say was simply that I preferred the taste of Opus X and Padrón Anniversary cigars over many Cubans.

That apparently destroyed the space-time continuum to the extent that it's influenced your judgment here.

I will say it clearly now, though I have said it before. I know what I'm talking about too, and that Cohiba EL I smoked was real. Period. End of story. Accept it or not, I could care less -- but am I tiring of banging my head into a brick wall here.

Believe what you want.


----------



## moki

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*



TheBeast said:


> It appears to me that they've continued to run production of the 01's in both 2002 and 2003, yet continuing to band them as 01's. Would explain why the 01's haven't seemed to run out. Atleast inregards to this information from Mitchell. Interesting, if true. I assumed if you had a Limited pruduction cigar for a particular year that there would be only one run for that year and cigar. To continue producing that cigar years after and banded it as 01' seems a little misleading.IMO Anyway...who knows.


Someone here gets it...


----------



## coppertop

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

I'll take my PSD3 EL 2001 over any Cohiba.....period.

Now see how you screwed yourself. With that little switch trick you pulled. Actually Fredster deemed the one labeled with the 01 EL label as real. Then you said the 01 was actually the 03. How does one know..........he is just suppose to take your word that you switched bands. You've been so adament that 03 was real, how does one know you just aren't saying you switched the bands. I'm not trying to be a dick. Just making a observation on how I would look at this if you had pulled the switch on me.

Anyway, posts have nothing to do with knowledge. I have a lot more posts then either of you, but Fred knows a whole hell of a lot more then me. And I bet you do to. I just post more. Comparing post counts is no way to judge a persons knowledge.


----------



## Fredster

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

Bottom line, if the 01 banded cigar was really the 03 then I stand corrected. It was definately real. If you had just been upfront and left the bands alone, I would have authenticated the 03 and said you were right. For some reason you don't trust me. I may have different opinions on cigars but I have an open mind and I admit when I am wrong. Again if that 01 cigar was the 03 you were reviewing, then I am wrong wrong wrong and they are real. Happy? Iv'e sent 3 cigars for you just now, you should have Mon. or Tues at latest. I switched the bands so when you say these Cubans suck I can tell you they are really Opus X's! Just kidding, you are getting a Part.898 var Dec.03.,boli petit ABR03,and Monte#4 JUN03. Enjoy them and post some reviews. If you think Domestics are still better, so be it. I'm done on this subject, I fell like we are beating a dead horse. :s


----------



## coppertop

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

Moki...Fred sent me 2 Monte#4 and a Boli PC. I hope you enjoy them as much as I did. They were both excellent cigars. I have 1 more Monte that I am letting sleep. Well maybe 

Enjoy them.


----------



## coppertop

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

Moki......out of shear curiosity where is your humidity level????

u


----------



## Fredster

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

Finally heard back from Mitch and he confimed the response Moki had posted. He has seen some Co. Pyramids with 03 bands on the cigars, and agrees this is a mistake. They should have 01 bands, as they are an 01 Limitada, reguardless of when they are made. I recently recieved Boli petits (cab of 50) with bands, and yes they are real from an internet vendor that I've been doing business with since 97. (Bruce5 got the same ones) Anything is possible in Cuba. So my apologies to Moki, Co. Pyr. L.E. with 03 bands could be real. Assuming you put an 01 band on that 03 cigar like you said, then yours are definatley real. Again this would have been a lot simpler if you were just honest about the bands upfront. Like I said I don't have a problem admitting I'm wrong (unless you talk to my wife!) Anything I did not purchase my self I am suspicious of. Especially when they have a band that is incorrect and someone is telling me it's not as good as a Padron, but thats his opinion and he is certainly entitled to it.


----------



## moki

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

Thank you, Fredster. I'm not sure why you put qualifications on it ("assuming what you said is true") -- but thank you for posting this. I don't see any "dishonesty" in switching the bands; the point was to remove bias. We all have cognitive biases that are stronger than we like to admit.

And yes, I preferred the Padrón 1926 No.9 Maduro to that Cohiba LE you smoked -- though I must say, I did enjoy the Cohiba Piramide LE quite a bit -- I liked it better than the Cohiba DC LE.

I'm glad we agree that we both know a real Cohiba when we smoke one. 



Fredster said:


> Finally heard back from Mitch and he confimed the response Moki had posted. He has seen some Co. Pyramids with 03 bands on the cigars, and agrees this is a mistake. They should have 01 bands, as they are an 01 Limitada, reguardless of when they are made. I recently recieved Boli petits (cab of 50) with bands, and yes they are real from an internet vendor that I've been doing business with since 97. (Bruce5 got the same ones) Anything is possible in Cuba. So my apologies to Moki, Co. Pyr. L.E. with 03 bands could be real. Assuming you put an 01 band on that 03 cigar like you said, then yours are definatley real. Again this would have been a lot simpler if you were just honest about the bands upfront. Like I said I don't have a problem admitting I'm wrong (unless you talk to my wife!) Anything I did not purchase my self I am suspicious of. Especially when they have a band that is incorrect and someone is telling me it's not as good as a Padron, but thats his opinion and he is certainly entitled to it.


----------



## moki

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*



coppertop said:


> Moki......out of shear curiosity where is your humidity level????


Depends; I have a few different humidors. The one I keep Cubans in, I keep it at around 65%. I also have a large humidor that has a number of shelves in it -- each drawer has its own credo unit and hygrometer. It's interesting, humidity settles more than you might think. The top drawer can be at 65%, and then it cascades down, increasing about .5-1% per drawer, with the bottom drawer being around 70%

It actually works out quite nicely because I can keep cigars that like different humidity levels in different drawers of the same humidor.


----------



## moki

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*



Fredster said:


> Enjoy them and post some reviews. If you think Domestics are still better, so be it. I'm done on this subject, I fell like we are beating a dead horse. :s


People don't do blind reviews because they don't trust the other person; they do them to remove inherent biases. Granted, in this case, the biases were switched, and the reviews fell along those switched biases (2003 banded is fake, 2001 banded is real). I'm going to the cigar shop tonight, I'll see if the same guy is there so I can mooch another one of his "ELs" -- like I said, it wouldn't shock me if his were not genuine.

As for the "Domestics" comment, all I said was that I preferred the taste of Opus X's and Padrón 1964s/1926s to many Cubans. I made no sweeping comment regarding Domestic cigars, nor did I say "all Cubans"

Indeed, I'm going to be smoking some nice Cohiba 30th Anniversary (jar) cigars tonight, and I'm looking forward to it.


----------



## morenoloco

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

I've known Andy (Moki) for a while, and he is well versed and knowledgeable regarding cigars. Furthermore, if there is any doubt, he will ask questions and/or refer to the books.

When I was shown pictures of the cigars in question, I had initially doubted Andy (hereforth known as Moki). I'd mentioned to him that the box I had, included sticks with the old Cohiba band, and were EL 2001. Initially, I fell into the trap of quickly judging these to be fake. Given that I spent a lot of time in Latin America, and have seen variations in (authentic) cigars of cuban origin, I should not have jumped to a quick conclusion.

We Americans are too quick to judge sometimes and are even quicker to yell the word "FAKE." We are also taking this way too seriously. Nobody is authenticating these cigars for auction at Sotheby's or Christie's. Furthermore, I don't think that Moki was trying to humiliate Fredster at all. At the worst, this may be considered a "harmless" prank, although it did have utility.

If there is any inherent bias, then the lesson learned from this excercise is to "not judge a book by its cover." If I ever have any questions, I'll quickly defer them to an expert on the subject. And this person is Mitchell Orchant....
BTW: Everyone just drop the brouhaha over the partagas 1996's... Anyone can make a small mistake... Even neurosurgeons make errors sometimes.


----------



## Bruce5

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

Moki - 
As Gomer Pyle would say, "You're gone straight to hell for that one".
Kind of funny though. "Muhaahaa..." -- Was that the evil laugh? 
.
Fred - 
I have 01 EL's that came out in 02... they still have the 01
band. This tends to make Limitados... not very Limitado... Kind of
like Poker's picture.


----------



## coppertop

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

Poor, poor horse


----------



## moki

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*



Bruce5 said:


> Moki -
> As Gomer Pyle would say, "You're gone straight to hell for that one".
> Kind of funny though. "Muhaahaa..." -- Was that the evil laugh?


Exactly. My best evil laugh.


----------



## moki

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

BTW, Fredster, credit where credit is due. I got another one of the 2001 ELs from the guy at the local club tonight -- just smelling it makes it pretty clear it is a fake. I haven't smoked it yet, but I'll post my observations when I do.

Thing is, he has other fakes as well, from his "trusted source" in Miami. He showed me a Cohiba tonight that didn't smell right at all, but the band on it looked reasonable. Thing is, it had a 2002 and later gold-colored Cohiba band, and the box had a 1996 box code on it (!!!)

This is why people are so hair-trigger about fake Cubans, especially Cohibas: there are so damn many of them out there, and many of them are decent fakes.

Check it out, 150 factories were shut down in a recent raid:

http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y04/may04/28e6.htm

So I don't fault Fredster or anyone else for being leery of something that doesn't seem quite right -- and I'm guessing he was also right that the other cigar may very well be fake. I'll let ya know after I burn it.


----------



## moki

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*



Fredster said:


> All of the Padrons pale in comparison to any Cubans I've smoked. The Cohiba L.E. Maduro Torpedo was a 2001 edition cigar not 2003 , that alone tells me they are fake. Also the Reserva cigar has the gold band. The seleccion reserva was made for the festival Habanos 2003 before that gold styled band came out. Iv'e smoked all of the Padron anniverario,OpusX,Ashton VSG's in the past, I don't know anyone who is smoking real Cubans that would say any of those cigars comes close to comparing with a good Cuban.


Sure ya do. Right from this site, too. 

http://www.top25cigar.com/reviewdatabase/top25reviews.asp


----------



## Fredster

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*



morenoloco said:


> I've known Andy (Moki) for a while, and he is well versed and knowledgeable regarding cigars. Furthermore, if there is any doubt, he will ask questions and/or refer to the books.
> 
> He's an intelligent guy, you can tell that from talking to him. I don't agree with a lot of his views on Domestic and Cuban cigars.(not just his tastes) We've had very lengthy discussions on price, marketing, etc.
> 
> When I was shown pictures of the cigars in question, I had initially doubted Andy (hereforth known as Moki). I'd mentioned to him that the box I had, included sticks with the old Cohiba band, and were EL 2001. Initially, I fell into the trap of quickly judging these to be fake. Given that I spent a lot of time in Latin America, and have seen variations in (authentic) cigars of cuban origin, I should not have jumped to a quick conclusion.
> 
> We Americans are too quick to judge sometimes and are even quicker to yell the word "FAKE." We are also taking this way too seriously. Nobody is authenticating these cigars for auction at Sotheby's or Christie's. Furthermore, I don't think that Moki was trying to humiliate Fredster at all. At the worst, this may be considered a "harmless" prank, although it did have utility.
> 
> I won't argue that all parties have taken this too seriously, including Andy. As for yelling fake, I don't see how you can help it when there are so many everywhere. I don't think he was trying to humiliate me either. I said no offense taken. Although I don't see what utility it had. It was silly and not needed. Also, don't see the logic, you think I may be biased to the 03 band, so you put the 03 band on a fake cigar someone gave you? I call it like I see it, and if he would have sent the cigars unbanded or with the correct bands I would have told him I was wrong, which I have done already. The 03 banded cigar he sent was so fake, I smelled it the second I took it out of the bag.
> 
> If there is any inherent bias, then the lesson learned from this excercise is to "not judge a book by its cover." If I ever have any questions, I'll quickly defer them to an expert on the subject. And this person is Mitchell Orchant....
> BTW: Everyone just drop the brouhaha over the partagas 1996's... Anyone can make a small mistake... Even neurosurgeons make errors sometimes.


Andy's an intelligent guy, it's easy to see that from talking to him. I don't agree with him on Domestics and Cubans.(not just tastes) We've had lengthy discussions on price, marketing, etc. Also his statement that no Cubans (including: Davidoffs,Dunhills,1492 cigar that earned the first 100 in C.A.,etc) are as good as Padrons is rediculous.

I won't argue that all parties have taken this too seriously, Andy included. As for yelling fake I don't see how you can not when we are constantly seeing them everywhere.

I don't think he was trying to humiliate me either. I said no offense taken. Although, I don't see what utility it had. It was silly and not needed.Also I don't see the logic. You think I'm biased to the 03 band, so you put the 03 band on a cigar that is fake? I call em like I see em, and if he had sent the cigars unbanded or with the correct bands I would have told him I was wrong which I have already done. The 03 banded cigar was so fake, I smelled it the second I took it out of the bag.

I've been dealing with Mitch since 97. He's never let me down, or given me bad info. I don't think anyone on this post said anything negative about him. Bruce said a vendor is one good resource, but should not be the only one. I think he was also saying that they are occasionaly wrong. When I asked Mitch about MoTheMans Robainas with 01 limitadas bands (only supposed to be in the limited humidor) he said he was not aware of that cigar getting those bands other than a few singles handed out at the festival dinner. Well come to find out there were some boxes made also. He has a ton of knowledge, and the best selection of aged and rare cigars, but is occasionally wrong. 

Had to hit that horse one more time coppertop, I'm leaving on vacation and won't have internet availability there for a few days, so I promise thats it!


----------



## moki

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*



Fredster said:


> Andy's an intelligent guy, it's easy to see that from talking to him. I don't agree with him on Domestics and Cubans.(not just tastes) We've had lengthy discussions on price, marketing, etc. Also his statement that no Cubans (including: Davidoffs,Dunhills,1492 cigar that earned the first 100 in C.A.,etc) are as good as Padrons is rediculous.


That's "ridiculous"  -- seriously, I don't know where you keep getting this from. To repeat. I stated that I enjoy the flavor of Opus Xs and Padróns more than many Cuban cigars. Nowhere in there does it state I prefer them to ALL Cubans.

I don't think it's possible to make such a statement. For me, what cigar I want to smoke really depends on the mood, the situation, etc. I don't crave Japanese food every night, nor do I crave the flavor of an Montecristo every night.

Finally, though, there is nothing "ridiculous" at all about someone's personal tastes. You can disagree with them, or think they have a palate of a billy goat, but people just like the taste of different things. I don't see what the big deal is.

I believe non-Cuban cigar makers have quite a bit of excellent product to offer; I've yet to find any Cubans that have the distinctive (and IMHO, lovely) taste of an Opus X or a Padrón. I like those tastes, so I will continue to like those non-Cuban cigars.

But really, looking down at someone because they haven't converted to your one true religion of Cuban cigars being the shiznit doesn't make any sense.


----------



## moki

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*



Fredster said:


> Andy's an intelligent guy, it's easy to see that from talking to him. I don't agree with him on Domestics and Cubans.(not just tastes) We've had lengthy discussions on price, marketing, etc. Also his statement that no Cubans (including: Davidoffs,Dunhills,1492 cigar that earned the first 100 in C.A.,etc) are as good as Padrons is rediculous.


BTW, as for the CA ratings, I read them as I read every cigar review: one person's opinion. One thing blind taste tests have shown me is that taste is a very, very subjective thing. Yes, Suckling et al are very learned about Cuban cigars -- but this strength is also a bias. Someone who has invested that much into learning and enjoy Cubans is that less likely to prefer anything else.

As for the 1492, I've never had one. MO used to have singles, but no more -- but if you have one and want to trade/sell it, I'm very interested.


----------



## relaxnsmoke

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

As far as which is best, or worse.....Cuban, Nicaraguan or D.R., I think if the US had an embargo against Nicaragua or the D.R., we may begin to get all "Twanged Out" on Cubans. Desire is fueled by what is forbidden.  A pre-embargo PAM 1964 Exclusivo would be worth the $10 we pay today. 

The 5 best cigars I've smoked in my life are Cuban, but 3 of the others in my top 10 are domestics. I'm sure this will change, like all things. I have smoked quite a few isoms, I put my consumption at 50/50, which is how I like it. I do respect everyones intake.

Even a pal who once went to K Mart when they closed their doors and bought a case of Swisher Sweets, he smoked everyone of them, then went back to hand rolled premiums, including Cubans! He didn't do it out of poverty, he did it because he enjoys Swishers and that was that! It just didn't matter after we got over the teasing, we laughed it off and continued on. I'm weak, I couldn't handle the sweets!

Fakes? I've had two, funny thing is both were Cohibas! One a domestic Cohiba (D.R. knockoff), now that was pathetic. The other was the Mexican $2 Cuban Cohiba. Anyway, just my .02 cents.


----------



## moki

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*



relaxnsmoke said:


> As far as which is best, or worse.....Cuban, Nicaraguan or D.R., I think if the US had an embargo against Nicaragua or the D.R., we may begin to get all "Twanged Out" on Cubans. Desire is fueled by what is forbidden.  A pre-embargo PAM 1964 Exclusivo would be worth the $10 we pay today.


Sure, I agree -- I have friends in England, Australia, Malaysia, and elsewhere who simply cannot get many brands -- Padróns, VSGs, Opus X's -- and they lust after them.

As for any cigar ratings, it's all just opinion -- and is influenced by your state of mind, what you had to eat/drink, how you're feeling that day, etc.

If we're going by Cigar Aficionado, though (which is a little pointless, IMHO): the Opus X double corona is the highest rated double corona ever.

Similarly, in the Connoisseur's Corner in the February 2004 issue, a 1997 Padrón Imperial Maduro was rated a 95 -- that's above four other Cuban cigars, and second only to the Partagas 150.

Opus X cigars are also consistently rated higher than many Cuban brands. I'm not the only one who likes these cigars.


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## Treyjo43

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*



moki said:


> If we're going by Cigar Aficionado, though (which is a little pointless, IMHO): the Opus X double corona is the highest rated double corona ever.
> 
> Similarly, in the Connoisseur's Corner in the February 2004 issue, a 1997 Padrón Imperial Maduro was rated a 95 -- that's above four other Cuban cigars, and second only to the Partagas 150.


IMHO, cigar ratings from magazines cannot be trusted. For example, I have noticed the in CA there is a direct corolation between the number of Ads a cigar has and it rating The only reviews I trust are those posted on forums by people like us who are opinionated and are not afraid to say how they feel.


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## moki

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*



Treyjo43 said:


> IMHO, cigar ratings from magazines cannot be trusted. For example, I have noticed the in CA there is a direct corolation between the number of Ads a cigar has and it rating The only reviews I trust are those posted on forums by people like us who are opinionated and are not afraid to say how they feel.


I'd tend to agree with you, though I take any cigar review for what it is: one person's opinion of what they personally enjoyed -- and I keep the caveat in mind that tastes vary.

The only reason I mentioned CA ratings was Fredster bringing it up as a source. And in that source, they've rated Opus and Padróns over many Cubans... so I'm not alone using his sources either.


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## Enyafan

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

i reviewed for smoke magazine and i can tell you that they not only fake the score but change the wording of the reviews as well. i was told if i wanted to do a second set of reviews that i need to "think about the advertisers" and that they "didn't want to piss off the advertisers" and that i needed to be more positive with the reviews and scores. shortly after they did total reviews instead of individual scores. guess they got too many complaints from the folks they did dirty. i only got 3 cigars i liked lol.


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## coppertop

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

Yeah the cigar review scores in CA are a total joke. I haven't been able to find Smoke, which I thought was suppose to be a better cigar mag. Oh well...I know what I like and thats all that matters. To each his own.

u


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## Blueface

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

Cohiba did in fact produce a 2003 Edicion Limitada Pyramid.
I have purchased and smoked a number of these boxes and were great cigars.
All with traditional Cohiba strengh and all with fine draw and burn.
Got them along with a couple of boxes of 2003 Edicion Limitada DC. All from credible sources (my family purchasing in the factory prior to leaving the country).
Don't doubt the one pictured is authentic.


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## MiamiE

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

those 1926 Padrons annihilate almost every cuban ive smoked to date!


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## Blueface

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

MiamiE is on the money.
I have smoked a very large selection of ISOMs in recent years.
My dad has smoked them for the last 55 years.
He was born and lived there until he was 30 and left in the mid 60's.
Had some of the finest ever rolled, many just for him as in spite of communism in 1959, he was filthy loaded.
Through it all, he would give you every and any ISOM stick for a Padron Anniversary Diplomatico or Monarca.
Move it up a notch to the 1926 torpedo and he would be happier yet.
Give him a 40th and who knows what he would do.
Frankly, I would have to agree.
Say what you may, nothing beats the quality of a Padron Anniversary.
Cigar Insider and Cigar Aficionado seem to agree.


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## Fredster

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*



MiamiE said:


> those 1926 Padrons annihilate almost every cuban ive smoked to date!


The only thing the 1926's annihilate is your pocketbook. Don't know what Cubans you've smoked, but there are very few I would take any Padron over. Hell, I'd take a $4.00 boli petit over any of the 4 1926's in the 4 cigar sampler box they make. I had one a year ago and was not impressed. Close to $60.00 for 4 cigars. They are very strong and the quality is top notch, but to me they are not complex at all. I don't care for the aroma either. Very different than a Cuban. The smallest cigar in the sampler was the best to me. I looked around and it's about 12.00 ea. Now for 12.00/ea. I can get some much bigger Cubans with age (several years) that to these taste buds, are much better. To each his own though.


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## miki

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*

moki "Partagas Serie D No.3 EL (2001) " just ok???? WOW, I just smoked a Partagas Serie D No.1 EL (2004) and it was an incredible smoke. It was one of the most smooth and flavourful smoke I have ever had.


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## Fredster

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*



Blueface said:


> MiamiE is on the money.
> I have smoked a very large selection of ISOMs in recent years.
> My dad has smoked them for the last 55 years.
> He was born and lived there until he was 30 and left in the mid 60's.
> Had some of the finest ever rolled, many just for him as in spite of communism in 1959, he was filthy loaded.
> Through it all, he would give you every and any ISOM stick for a Padron Anniversary Diplomatico or Monarca.
> Move it up a notch to the 1926 torpedo and he would be happier yet.
> Give him a 40th and who knows what he would do.
> Frankly, I would have to agree.
> Say what you may, nothing beats the quality of a Padron Anniversary.
> Cigar Insider and Cigar Aficionado seem to agree.


Everyones tastes are different. If your dad prefers Padrons to Cubans thats fine. I certainly would not argue they are some very high quality cigars as far as construction goes. I don't see the big deal with the taste though. Very rough and one noted, to me anyways. Kind of like a Romeo Cazadore. Strong as hell, but no complexity. There are many Cubans that you can get ( aged even) when we are comparing apples to apples price wise, that blow them away IMHO. As far as your comments about cigar afficionado go, yeah the Padrons rate high but, I don't see any Padrons hitting 97-100 in the connoiseur's corner section. April 05 has 3 Cubans getting 98's and a 97. No there are no aged Padrons in this edition, but they have scored them in the past, as well as aged Opus's, and they have never hit a 97-100. Usually 90-95. Your tastes are what they are and if you like Padron's better, then they are better as far as your concerned. However, you (and the other two guys) are in the minority of people I know who prefer Padrons to cubans, that are smoking real Cubans.


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## Fredster

*Re: Poker, Padrón, and Cuban EL's*



Blueface said:


> Cohiba did in fact produce a 2003 Edicion Limitada Pyramid.
> I have purchased and smoked a number of these boxes and were great cigars.
> All with traditional Cohiba strengh and all with fine draw and burn.
> Got them along with a couple of boxes of 2003 Edicion Limitada DC. All from credible sources (my family purchasing in the factory prior to leaving the country).
> Don't doubt the one pictured is authentic.


We established earlier in this thread that there were in fact some Co. Pyramids produced in 03 with 03 bands, even though they should have had the 01 bands since it was an 01 Limitada. There were also batches of other 01 L.E. Mad. made in 02, but they all had the 01 bands. Why Cohiba chose to make more of an 01 L.E. in 03 and put 03 bands on is a mystery. Knowing how unorganized and screwed up the country is, it was probably a mistake. I was sent 2 Cohiba Pyramids by Moki. One with an 01 band and one with an 03. The one with the 03 band was 100% fake, and the one with the 01 band was legit. I do however acknowledge there are some legit Co. Pyr.'s with 03 bands. Whether the ones he had were real or not I still don't know. He claimed he switched the bands in order to srew me up. He claimed I would be biased to say the 03 was fake, which it was. He thought he was giving me 2 authentic cigars. All the details are in the earlier threads.


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