# Wow, preembargo



## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

While at Corona Cigar factory on my way home last night, I saw a large group leaving that is here on convention. They are home builders and famous fro throwing around large sums of money.

I was told by an associate that they had bought several pre embargo Habanos from the front humidor which range from 300 to 3000 each and date back as far as 1955.

Just curious as to how many people have actually paid that kind of price.

Although i am new, i can't imagina any cigar worth this price unless it came with a flock of Cubana women for a few years.


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## havana_lover (Feb 15, 2007)

People who buy (notice I said buy) cigars regularly at that price are IMO just showing off.. I have had the pleasure of smoking a 40 year old cigar, it was smooth silky smooth matter of fact best cigar I ever smoked.. However I would never 1000€ on one cigar..

*off topic*

where in orlando are you at? I ask only because I went to school out there..


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## 12stones (Jan 6, 2006)

I was out there last year and was pretty amazed at their pre-embargo selection. I definitely wouldn't pay those prices though.


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## RJT (Feb 12, 2005)

floydpink said:


> While at Corona Cigar factory on my way home last night, I saw a large group leaving that is here on convention. They are home builders and famous fro throwing around large sums of money.
> 
> I was told by an associate that they had bought several pre embargo Habanos from the front humidor which range from 300 to 3000 each and date back as far as 1955.
> 
> ...


Not common but not unheard of either. While not many folks spend that kind of money on cigars their are some that will and do spend that type on these types of cigars.


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## borndead1 (Oct 21, 2006)

I wouldn't pay that kind of money for a cigar if Castro himself rolled it on the butt cheeks of Vida Guerra.





OK, now THAT was a weird mental picture.


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## newcigarz (Feb 11, 2007)

Thats crazy money for a smoke. I don't think i could bring myself to spend 
that kinda coin.


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## shaggy (Dec 28, 2006)

here some pre embargo

http://cgi.ebay.ca/VINTAGE-Tobaccia...8QQihZ018QQcategoryZ11672QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.ca/VINTAGE-Tobaccia...8QQihZ018QQcategoryZ11672QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

try ur luck and giver a bid :r


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## livwire68 (Oct 2, 2006)

Its amazing how many pre-embargo smokes are out there, my local B&M sells them from $6- $20. I guess I will always be leary of them. And if I had that kind of money to throw at them I would just take a trip out of the states and smoke till my heart was content!


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## RJT (Feb 12, 2005)

livwire68 said:


> Its amazing how many pre-embargo smokes are out there, my local B&M sells them from $6- $20. I guess I will always be leary of them. And if I had that kind of money to throw at them I would just take a trip out of the states and smoke till my heart was content!


Just guessing the ones at your B&M are not true pre-embargo (PE) cigars. They are most likley the ones called Pinars or the Gurkha ones. You typically dont see true PE cigars that cheap. The Pinars are the ones made from tobacco that was found in some warehouse that was in storage before the embargo, so the story goes. True PE cigars were harvested, rolled, boxed in Cuba before the embargo started.


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## habanaman (Feb 11, 2006)

RJT said:


> Just guessing the ones at your B&M are not true pre-embargo (PE) cigars. They are most likley the ones called Pinars or the Gurkha ones. You typically dont see true PE cigars that cheap. The Pinars are the ones made from tobacco that was found in some warehouse that was in storage before the embargo, so the story goes. True PE cigars were harvested, rolled, boxed in Cuba before the embargo started.


Onestly i think that the pre -embargo and the 20/30 cigars aged are simply of CADAVER.Witout nothing to say!
Is only a mental state ,psicologicol state.Because if i give to you a pre embargo cigars without say nothing about ,and without band ,after smoked you say to me that it was a shit!!!! But if a say all history about that cigars you are fashioned from it ,because you think to smoke a piece of history,because you think to smoke a very or unique cigars,and obviusly because you thinking that you are smoking a very exspansive cigars!! This is the true history about rare ,old,pre -embargo cigars.Same thing about Dunhill and Davidoff!
On 100 sticks of Davidoff or dunhill you find 15 cigars really good the rest is shit!!!

Angelo


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## RJT (Feb 12, 2005)

habanaman said:


> Onestly i think that the pre -embargo and the 20/30 cigars aged are simply of CADAVER.Witout nothing to say!
> Is only a mental state ,psicologicol state.Because if i give to you a pre embargo cigars without say nothing about ,and without band ,after smoked you say to me that it was a shit!!!! But if a say all history about that cigars you are fashioned from it ,because you think to smoke a piece of history,because you think to smoke a very or unique cigars,and obviusly because you thinking that you are smoking a very exspansive cigars!! This is the true history about rare ,old,pre -embargo cigars.Same thing about Dunhill and Davidoff!
> On 100 sticks of Davidoff or dunhill you find 15 cigars really good the rest is shit!!!
> 
> Angelo


 I tend to agree with you to some degree that their maybe a bit of that "ohh its a pre embargo" mentality. However I will say with the some what limited experiences I have had with these vintage type cigars that the ones I had were great cigars. Not saying that all vintage Davidoff and Dunhill cigars are excellent but the ones I have had are great cigars and many folks swear by them.


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## habanaman (Feb 11, 2006)

RJT said:


> I tend to agree with you to some degree that their maybe a bit of that "ohh its a pre embargo" mentality. However I will say with the some what limited experiences I have had with these vintage type cigars that the ones I had were great cigars. Not saying that all vintage Davidoff and Dunhill cigars are excellent but the ones I have had are great cigars and many folks swear by them.


Rjt.....i have replay to you because you were the last post ... in My post it was that i think in general about super aged cigars....Than there are some good aged cigars..but unfortunately only someone!!!heheheheAnd onestely i don't wont pay 250 dollars for a dom Perignon that no has taste but look like to smoke hot air!

Angelo


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## carni (Jan 18, 2007)

I have been to that store and it is impressive to see well maintained 50-60yr old cigars. I spoke to one of the workers about them and he said he gets one every year for his birthday at like $300/stick. He seemed to be the same type of smoker that can taste black cherry in his cigars...so I took his opinion with little weight.

Ultimatley, if you smoke a c.c. (old or new) to feel cool or because you can drop the the money or taste dusty undertones you have missed it big time. You buy the cigars you like, period. If you really enjoy a pre-embargo c.c. and have the funds to do it, great. But please, do not buy any cigar for a status quo. that is why it was a customary practice to remove the label back in that day, you did not want to one up another smoker.


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## habanaman (Feb 11, 2006)

I don't understand if you tolking in general or tolking to me...Any way my friend i can't believe that there are people that love only pre -embargo only because are good!!!!! Because the the pre embargo cigars good i never smoked NEVER!!!!

And because to replay i would like say that i am one of more bigger collector in europe i have 12.000 or more cigars and i have smoked tons of super aged cigars and never i have find very very nice cigars in aged or pre embargo (Sorry if i can appear arrogant,i say this because i don't wont you think that i am tolking like a stupid without knowlog)cigars...some time some one good but stop! only good and only someone!!! than... my friend we can tolk for days and days and each of us has our opinion....

With friendly

Angelo



carni said:


> I have been to that store and it is impressive to see well maintained 50-60yr old cigars. I spoke to one of the workers about them and he said he gets one every year for his birthday at like $300/stick. He seemed to be the same type of smoker that can taste black cherry in his cigars...so I took his opinion with little weight.
> 
> Ultimatley, if you smoke a c.c. (old or new) to feel cool or because you can drop the the money or taste dusty undertones you have missed it big time. You buy the cigars you like, period. If you really enjoy a pre-embargo c.c. and have the funds to do it, great. But please, do not buy any cigar for a status quo. that is why it was a customary practice to remove the label back in that day, you did not want to one up another smoker.


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## Lumpold (Apr 28, 2005)

Everyone take a look:

http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showthread.php?t=54383

here.


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

habanaman said:


> I don't understand if you tolking in general or tolking to me...Any way my friend i can't believe that there are people that love only pre -embargo only because are good!!!!! Because the the pre embargo cigars good i never smoked NEVER!!!!
> 
> And because to replay i would like say that i am one of more bigger collector in europe i have 12.000 or more cigars and i have smoked tons of super aged cigars and never i have find very very nice cigars in aged or pre embargo (Sorry if i can appear arrogant,i say this because i don't wont you think that i am tolking like a stupid without knowlog)cigars...some time some one good but stop! only good and only someone!!! than... my friend we can tolk for days and days and each of us has our opinion....
> 
> ...


I am new here and am sure Angelo is talking in a way that I will one day understand, but for now, i am VERY confused at the meaning and to whom it was directed.


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## ATLHARP (May 3, 2005)

floydpink said:


> While at Corona Cigar factory on my way home last night, I saw a large group leaving that is here on convention. They are home builders and famous fro throwing around large sums of money.
> 
> I was told by an associate that they had bought several pre embargo Habanos from the front humidor which range from 300 to 3000 each and date back as far as 1955.
> 
> ...


I have been to CCC over in Orlando and let me say I have seen those cigars and they are dusty, old tattered sticks that should simply be thrown out. CCC should be ashamed to sell those fossils to the public.:2

ATL


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## RPB67 (Mar 26, 2005)

floydpink said:


> While at Corona Cigar factory on my way home last night, I saw a large group leaving that is here on convention. They are home builders and famous fro throwing around large sums of money.
> 
> I was told by an associate that they had bought several pre embargo Habanos from the front humidor which range from 300 to 3000 each and date back as far as 1955.
> 
> ...


I have been there and seen there collection of Pre- Embargos. They are pricey and a lot of them are estate sales either owned by famous people or collectors.

People do buy them, I have witnessed a few purchases out of that store that was very big money.


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## LiteHedded (Apr 10, 2005)

on some of those boxes there is evident water damage
no telling what those smokes taste like


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## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

I noticed the boxes that looked water damaged.

The thing about Corona is their location. It is in the high end restaurant row area and close to Bay Hill and Isleworth with residents like Tiger Woods and Shaq to name a few. Corona is frequented by a lot of rich, famous and also pretentuous people and gold digging women. Throwing around money is common in that part of the city and it is lame for someone who has lived here and waterskied on the lake Corona sits on before there was anything but orange groves and gators there.

I normally avoid the area except for an occasional splurge at Roy's or one of the really good resaurants and head for less known pubs that are a little more real in my opinion.

Corona does have a very nice selection with very helpful people working there who are happy to help you as well as light you up, so it does serve as a nice addition.


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## MoTheMan (May 24, 2003)

I've had some some pre-embargo sticks that were an absolute experience & amazing.
On the other hand, I've have many that were crap!!
The key is good quality sticks that were properly kept over the years, and that's exceedingly rare to find.
You can search private collections and auction houses, but seriously, unless you'e 100% sure of the history of a particular cigar or box of cigars, you'e just taking a gamble.
Someone like Angelo (Habanaman), who's an Italian citizen, and can travel to Cuba & acquire just about any cigar that's out there, I know doesn't spend much at all on pre-embargoes. Probably, like me, he spends a lot more on finding good stuff that's out & available now.

.
.
.
.

Now, I know of quite a few brothers (and I'm sure quite a few of them will try & shoot me down here -- LOL), who've spent quite a bit of money acquiring a large collection of vintaged & even pre-embaroged stuff. They tell me how they've changed the way they draw on a cigar to pick up all the nuances, how they deliberately slow down the burn so as NOT to pick up any harshness or mustiness, how they have to concentrate more when smoking a stick to really get into it & enjoy it.

All good for them.

As for me, man, I work too hard for my money & in life, in general. I don't want to have to work at enjoying my cigar. I want to relax, not work at it. Let that stick seduce me, carry me away to another level of experience, have fun enjoying all those tastes dancing on my palate. Heck, I'll take a younger stick full of taste & a bit of youthful sting/twang over old musty sticks where those tastes are more than half gone.
Just my :2 .

As kipling would say, "Which is the better portion—bondage bought with a ring,
Or a harem of dusky beauties, fifty tied in a string?":ss


Mo (Still The Man)


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## daviddunn (Sep 26, 2006)

Yeah, that's crazy. I wouldn't mind trying one or two of those sticks, but I would never pay that much on a regular basis.


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## omowasu (Aug 9, 2006)

habanaman said:


> I don't understand if you tolking in general or tolking to me...Any way my friend i can't believe that there are people that love only pre -embargo only because are good!!!!! Because the the pre embargo cigars good i never smoked NEVER!!!!
> 
> And because to replay i would like say that i am one of more bigger collector in europe i have 12.000 or more cigars and i have smoked tons of super aged cigars and never i have find very very nice cigars in aged or pre embargo (Sorry if i can appear arrogant,i say this because i don't wont you think that i am tolking like a stupid without knowlog)cigars...some time some one good but stop! only good and only someone!!! *than... my friend we can tolk for days and days and each of us has our opinion....*
> 
> ...


Back in the day (1996) I had a couple of pre-embargo cigars gifted from a collector. While my taste buds werent quite as mature as they are today, they certainly werent notably better than other cigars at the time. I cant justify spending 300.00 USD+ for a pre-embargo cigar that may be of questionable quality. I can get a BOX of fantastic 2006 cigars for that price, age them, insure proper conditions, and end up with an even better box in 10 years.

I guess if I had money to burn I would try one... I have a feeling that even if I had millions in the bank, 300.00 each plus would be too much money. I agree with your take on pre-embargo Angelo.


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## LasciviousXXX (Oct 12, 2004)

MoTheMan said:


> I've had some some pre-embargo sticks
> 
> Mo (Still The Man)


MO *ALWAYS* The Man 

Good to see you again my brother, I owe you a phone call.


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## SDmate (Apr 24, 2005)

MoTheMan said:


> I've had some some pre-embargo sticks that were an absolute experience & amazing.
> On the other hand, I've have many that were crap!!
> The key is good quality sticks that were properly kept over the years, and that's exceedingly rare to find.
> You can search private collections and auction houses, but seriously, unless you'e 100% sure of the history of a particular cigar or box of cigars, you'e just taking a gamble.
> ...


WOOOHOOO!!!!!! ......Mo's back  
been missin yer words of wisdom the last few months mate.
now when are ya gonna herf with the SD crew:ss


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## pinoyman (Jan 28, 2005)

*I guess I'll scratch the pre embargo to my list...

Good to hear from you again Mo!*


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## Coffee Grounds (Feb 14, 2007)

What a great topic of debate.
I have never had a PE but I will some day.

I think PE's bring up another topic to me and that is aging.

Does 60's years aging really improve a cigar to be worth $300?

I have smoked some cigars that had 15 years of age on them and they were very good.

Great topic


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

It's the same deal as it is with wine. Most real old Bordeaux's and Burgundies taste gone. A high precentage of good year wines go sour on their own. A lot of hype goes into owning them and braging about them. Almost all blind tasters would take a $200 bottle of '97 over a $2000 bottle of '45 or '27...


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## Drew (Feb 6, 2007)

I remember seeing pre-embargo sticks for sale in the Sky Mall magazine you get on the airplane. I could swear they were only asking around $25/stick. Don't remember all the specifics though...


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## RJT (Feb 12, 2005)

A interesting article not so much about PM cigars but about vintage and collector cigars and the prices people pay.

The New Geneva

Hong Kong smokes Cuban Davidoffs, Dunhills and anything else great and rare
Posted: Tuesday, July 19, 2005

By James Suckling

James Suckling with Financial Secretary of Hong Kong, Henry Tang. 
Reprinted from the August 2005 issue of Cigar Aficionado.

George Wong, perhaps the greatest cigar collector on earth, was handing out 30th Anniversary Cohibas to late-night revelers in his private club in Hong Kong like candy canes to children. No cigar lover could refuse this modern legend in Cuban cigar making -- a double robusto with a rat-tail end made especially for the 30th birthday of the famous brand.

The 30th Anniversary was launched in 1996 at a cigar festival in Havana. Only 45 humidors of the Cohiba with 50 cigars each were produced that year, and Wong owns 10 of them. A number of them are already empty.

"Nobody is leaving this room until we finish the entire box," Wong, 52, said to the group of about 15 people who were with him on this mid-April evening. About half of those in the room were taking turns at karaoke in between puffs of the glorious smoke and glasses of Lafleur 1983 from a magnum.

A full 30th Anniversary Cohiba Humidor goes for about $30,000, if you can find one in a shop or at auction. Single sticks are about $800 at retail, but I know only one shop in the world that sells them and it's in Hong Kong:

"What is better in life than a great cigar and a great glass of wine?" asked Wong, whose family, one of the biggest land developers in the world, is currently changing the Battersea Power Station in London into one of the biggest shopping and residential centers in Europe. He had a huge grin on his face as the red-amber ash glowed off the end of his Cohiba. "You smoke a great cigar and you have no troubles in the world."

Luckily, Wong didn't keep to his word that night and insist that we finish the box, which was still half full. The 30th Anniversary Cohiba was an amazing cigar by all accounts (See Connoisseur's Corner on page 186 for a full tasting note) and not for the fainthearted. It was a blockbuster of a smoke that delivered masses of flavor and character. I would say it still needed some age to mellow, but it was still a perfect smoke for me -- 100 points.

Wong and his son Alex, 26, are part of a small group of Hong Kong Chinese who are incredible cigar aficionados. Their collections, as well as knowledge, are second to none. Just consider the walk-in humidor of the Wong family: it's about 20 feet long by 10 feet wide with two levels, humidity- and temperature- controlled, and packed to the ceiling with boxes of Cuban Davidoffs, Cuban Dunhills, pre-Castro cigars and rare limited-edition humidors from the island. Hell, I don't think even the Davidoff or Dunhill shops in London had such a stock when their namesake Cuban cigars were freely available in the market at the beginning of the 1990s.

But the Wongs are not the only cigar connoisseurs in Hong Kong. I have also met a real estate and entertainment tycoon, Peter Lam, 47, whose nickname should be "Mr. Dunhill Cabinetta" or, better, "The 100-point smoker." He apparently has close to 100 boxes of Dunhill Cabinettas in his walk-in humidor -- not to mention hundreds of Davidoffs as well as 1492 Humidors and 30th Anniversary Humidors. He's seldom seen around town without a 100-point cigar smoldering in his fist.

I smoked a Dunhill Estupendo -- the rarest of all the aged cigars in this brand -- with Lam during a barbecue, and he said he just can't get enough of the smokes -- no matter the price. "What I like is the smoothness of these cigars from Dunhill," said Lam, one of the biggest film producers in China. "They are also very rich and powerful."

Then there's entrepreneur Howard Yeung, 48, who bought almost the entire stock of Cuban Davidoffs from London's Davidoff shop in the early 1990s when the company stopped publicly selling the brand. (A long-running dispute between the Swiss cigarmaker and Cubatabaco, Cuba's cigar distribution agency, over quality, brand ownership and other issues had led to an agreement to halt production of Cuban Davidoffs.) Yeung knew that Davidoff no longer made the Cuban smoke, so he bought as much as he could before they ran out so that he wouldn't run out -- clever smoker! Today, he still has hundreds of boxes, from No. 2 to Dom Perignon.

"The amazing thing is that these guys all smoke these great cigars," said Thomas Bohrer, whose small company, Habanos Rare Wine and Cigars, supplied a large part of the above cigars to these collectors and furnishes rare vintage smokes to anyone else in Hong Kong who enjoys the leaf. He has a tiny core of affluent smokers and wine drinkers around the world who only want the best, and he travels the globe to source these rarities.

The good news is, you don't have to be a cigar-collecting tycoon to enjoy a great smoke -- or even an aged cigar -- in Hong Kong. A number of excellent cigar shops exist where the city's top smokers mingle with visitors to buy and smoke the best available at retail. Hong Kong is Cuban-centric or non-Cuban-phobic when it comes to cigars. They can barely give away a non-Cuban cigar in this towering town of skyscrapers and tall buildings. And you can smoke just about anywhere.

"Like with food and wine, Hong Kong connoisseurs always opt for the highest quality and best producers," said Bohrer. "Cigars are no exception. For us in Hong Kong, Havanas are the benchmark when comes to great smokes&#8230;. The [affluent] Chinese have discriminating tastes, and whether it is cigars, cars, watches or anything else, they want the best quality."

Some cynics might say that they are only interested in famous brands, or bands in regards to cigars. In other words, they think that if it's the most expensive, it's the best. While this is probably true, it can also sound like the attitude of the uninformed and nouveau riche. But the sophisticated Chinese I have smoked with are true connoisseurs. They don't just smoke with great gusto, they understand the subtleties of a great cigar. And more important, unlike a lot of so-called collectors, they smoke fine cigars on a daily basis rather than hoarding them and then smoking something new and less expensive.

It's not by chance that a Hong Kong resident wrote the best cigar book on rare Cuban cigars, An Illustrated Encyclopedia of Post-Revolution Havana Cigars, in 2003. Min Ron Nee, a cigar-crazy Hong Kong doctor, co-authored the book with Andriano Martinez Rios, a former executive at the Cuban global export company Habanos. The tome includes photos and comments on just about every brand and vitola, or size, ever made in Cuba. It is the definitive work on the subject for the moment.

"It is a very select group of people, but more and more people in Hong Kong are understanding the quality of a great aged cigar," said Bohrer. "They know that each day cigars such as Davidoff or Dunhill get rarer and rarer because they are smoking them. One day there will not be any more."

In fact, the most interesting cigar shop in Hong Kong began as a distributor for the Nicaraguan brand OneOff, but finally had to give up the line due to the difficulty in selling non-Cuban cigars. Cigarro -- which used to be called Cigair because of its connection with OneOff -- is now specializing in vintage cigars. It is the only shop in the world that I know of where you can buy a large selection of single sticks of such legendary smokes as 1492, Dunhill Cabinetta, 30th Anniversary Cohiba and Davidoff Château d'Yquem (all 100 points), as well as pre-Castro and other aged Havanas.

"Our biggest seller is Davidoff Haut-Brion 1990," said Benson Tse, the general manager of Cigarro. Tse sells Haut-Brions, which haven't been made since 1990, for about $100 per cigar. When I visited, a huge pyramid of about 100 boxes of them sat on a shelf above the shop's entrance -- which is the amount the shop has sold in the past year. "Cuban Davidoff. Cuban Davidoff. There is nothing else really that my customers want," he added.

He had just about every Cuban Davidoff ever produced on his shelves, as well as Dunhill and other rarities, not to mention a few pre-Castro smokes. For instance, if you fancy trying a Davidoff Dom Perignon, it's available here for about $520 a cigar. The long and slender Davidoff No. 2 is a steal by comparison at $85. Or how about a 100-pointer like the Dunhill Cabinetta for $520 or the 99-point Estupendos for the same price?

"People really enjoy the opportunity to try one of these rare cigars. And besides, who can afford a whole box?" said Tse. "But some of my customers come back and buy a box because they just can't get enough of these cigars."

The vintage selection in the shop was originally started when Bohrer, with the help of a handful of others in Hong Kong, bought a huge cigar collection from an American, whose identity will remain anonymous. There were thousands of boxes of everything from Davidoff to pre-Castros. Part of the haul went to start the shop and the rest to the investors. Although most of those cigars have either been sold or smoked, the shop continues to source cigars from around the world, as well as from collectors here in Hong Kong -- it's a sort of rare-cigar thrift shop for some of the biggest cigar collectors in the world!

Cigarro is not the only cigar shop in Hong Kong, of course. There are a handful of others in chic hotels and affluent shop centers. The two others I know well -- the Red Chamber Cigar Divan and Cohiba Cigar Divan -- have excellent stocks of current cigars from Havana and an informed staff. Cohiba Cigar Divan also sells aged cigars and puts away 40 or 50 boxes of top newly released smokes to sell a few years later. The shop calls those cigars its Vintage Selection.

All cigar shops seem to be good places to hang out, to smoke and to find out the latest news in Hong Kong -- from big business deals to the hottest new restaurants. Plus, prices are no longer much higher here than in other cities around the world due to recent price increases. I figure prices in Hong Kong are only 15 to 25 percent more than Madrid, Paris or Geneva -- and much less than London.

Smoking a 1995 Bolivar Royal Corona in Cigarro and looking at all the Cuban Davidoffs around me, I began to think back to the early 1990s when I visited the late great cigar guru Zino Davidoff in his shop in Geneva. He smoked cigarettes and I smoked a Davidoff No. 2. We spoke for hours about cigars, Havana and life in general. It was one of those great cigar moments in my life. Although Zino is no longer with us, we can still experience his dreams and his cigars in Hong Kong -- which for me is the new Geneva for cigars.


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## MoTheMan (May 24, 2003)

Yeah! I remember reading that article back when.

But there you have an example of those who bought (in the early 90's) what is now considered vintaged stuff, sat on it, and kept it pretty well ffresh & humidified.

Lucky them.

Now let's all go to Hong Kong!


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## icehog3 (Feb 20, 2005)

Threadjack on:

Great to see you Mo!!  

Threadjack off.


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## ATLHARP (May 3, 2005)

MoTheMan said:


> Yeah! I remember reading that article back when.
> 
> But there you have an example of those who bought (in the early 90's) what is now considered vintaged stuff, sat on it, and kept it pretty well ffresh & humidified.
> 
> ...


I would like to go to that shop and ask for Davidoff machine mades......

Too funny!

ATL


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## carni (Jan 18, 2007)

habanaman said:


> I don't understand if you tolking in general or tolking to me...Any way my friend i can't believe that there are people that love only pre -embargo only because are good!!!!! Because the the pre embargo cigars good i never smoked NEVER!!!!
> 
> And because to replay i would like say that i am one of more bigger collector in europe i have 12.000 or more cigars and i have smoked tons of super aged cigars and never i have find very very nice cigars in aged or pre embargo (Sorry if i can appear arrogant,i say this because i don't wont you think that i am tolking like a stupid without knowlog)cigars...some time some one good but stop! only good and only someone!!! than... my friend we can tolk for days and days and each of us has our opinion....
> 
> ...


The purpose of my post was not directed towards you, but my general feelings toward snobby smokers who smoke for the wrong reasons. Your post reminded me of a person I had met while in the same Corona Cigar in which you refer. No offense intended.


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## cfheater (Jan 14, 2006)

Just to clarify-Habanaman is a good guy. English is not his native language. I was pretty tough on him when he started first posting and he means no disrepect when he mentions his collection. He knows his stuff but it is hard for him to come across with the languages being different. He simply is saying that he has had many cigars and Pre-embargo isn't anything to write home about.


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## Blueface (May 28, 2005)

Habanaman seems to share my dad's sentiments regarding aged cigars for the most part.

I have to say that after a recent discussion with my dad, that I am surprised we never had before, I am totally confused.

I have always respected my dad's opinion on cigars as law.
He worked for H. Upmann in Cuba.
He created the machinery in Cuba to violate the patent on the aluminum tubes so Cuba could make them.
He has smoked at least two cigars a day since he was 14 and is now 71.
He had custom rolled cigars made exclusively for him in Cuba.
(BTW, he will trade any Cuban for a Padron Anni)

My point to all that is he is quite experienced I would say and has credentials for me to respect deerly. I was shocked when he and I had our first "aged" conversation recently. He asked me why would you want to smoke an old cigar? I told him what folks pay for them and how they are cherished. He couldn't understand and thought I was going nuts.

He then went on to explain to me that nothing beats a fresh, quality, custom rolled cigar. He believes the aging is in the curing. That is where he feels all the critical changes in the tobacco will take place. That is why Padron Annis and 26's are so good, due to the blend certainly and the quality of the rolling also, but the aging during the curing most importantly. He asked why we would all want to smoke a cigar so many years later, when the wrapper no longer holds that oil sheen. I tried to make the wine comparison to him but would not go for it. He told me the only aged cigars in Cuba were those forgotten or overstocked, and peope did not want them as they wanted fresh ones.

In summary, he told me he will smoke them young and leave the aged one to us. Perhaps he has lost a few marbles along the way at 71 but perhaps he may be right. Frankly, the very aged I have had have done nothing for me to justify the expense. I wonder if the novelty or the thought I was smoking an aged stick hyped it up more than it deserved. All a matter of taste of course and this is just my dad's opinion but one I found interesting and surprising.

The last thing he said was also interesting. Does anyone seek out specific box codes on Padrons or any other NC?


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## j6ppc (Jun 5, 2006)

Interesting perspective Carlos.
I've enjoyed a few Cubans with a little age on them (8-16 years for the most part). They taste good to me but then again the 05-06 production is pretty darn smokable right now.

Even if money were not an object I would have trouble spending hundreds of dollars for a single stick.


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## Navydoc (Jan 26, 2005)

My take on the aged cigars issue is two fold....first I enjoy the older blends used in the 80's and early 90's. There has clearly been changes towards the more milder blends in recent years which may be why so many prefer the newer production cigars (custom rolled being excluded). Secondly, I believe that infact there are changes that occur in the blended tobacco over years and is quite evident if you smoke a vertical of the same cigar (meaning same manufac., same vitola, different years). A well kept cigar will not loose the "oils" found on the wrapper so I don't go for that argument. As far as I'm aware there are no box codes on NC's so confirming date of production is difficult if not impossible. I have friends who will only smoke old cigars and those that will only smoke newer cigars...me...well, I smoke cigars new or old if they taste good:ss


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## carni (Jan 18, 2007)

Pepin's got box codes:ss


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## Coffee Grounds (Feb 14, 2007)

Great Debate
I liked the CA article. I liked the part about the smokers that don't hord their good stuff.

I like Blueface's post about his fathers views and that he worked in the Cuban cigar industry. Very very intersting about aging. I want to hear more.

I would like to hear more views from Habanaman on the aging process.

Being a novice smoker of less than 5 years these are the debates I want to hear about.


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## Navydoc (Jan 26, 2005)

carni said:


> Pepin's got box codes:ss


Interesting....I don't have any Pepins so I'm curious....do they have month and year production dates? or some other code....are you aware of any others?


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## NCRadioMan (Feb 28, 2005)

Navydoc said:


> Interesting....I don't have any Pepins so I'm curious....do they have month and year production dates? or some other code....are you aware of any others?


Yep, they are stamped with month and year. Example: Oct 2006


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## hyper_dermic (Dec 17, 2006)

is a cigar worth $300, is it worth $3000, thats all relative.

To the avg Joe, $300 is alot of coin
Say at $25/hr thats 12 hours work for 1 cigar. 
but for someone who makes $300 an hour, its pocket money.

So sure, theres a market for super expensive cigars, and there are PLENTY of people buying them... case in point that store in HK that only sells super-premium aged cigars.
HK just so happens to have lots of wealthy buisnessman either living or working there.

Is it showing off? or is it just enjoying your money? are these people jerkoffs for buying $3000 cigars?
Personally i dont hold it againt someone to buy a $3000 cigar.
I buy expensive things for my income bracket. I dont do it to show off, i do it because i enjoy the quality, workmanship, rarity, whatever.

Hell, if i made that kind of money i would buy em! without a 2nd thought.
I enjoy fine foods, drinks, and tobacco. A generous portion of my annual budget goes to food, drink, and tobacco. Its nice to spoil yourself sometimes. 

For now, me being spoiled is a run of the mill cohiba or fundadore or whatever. 
In a few years, me being spoiled will be a habano with 5+ years on it (or however long it takes me to stock up and age my own)

Maybe one day when i win the lottery i'll fly to HK, visit that shop, and buy a huge sampler of super aged limited cigars... 


and i wont feel bad for 1 second while doing it.

-hyp


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## 12stones (Jan 6, 2006)

carni said:


> Pepin's got box codes:ss





Navydoc said:


> Interesting....I don't have any Pepins so I'm curious....do they have month and year production dates? or some other code....are you aware of any others?


Padrons put dates in their boxes as well. Just an FYI.


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## NCRadioMan (Feb 28, 2005)

12stones said:


> Padrons put dates in their boxes as well. Just an FYI.


But remember, they have been having to re-use boxes due to the wood shortage.


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## 12stones (Jan 6, 2006)

NCRadioMan said:


> But remember, they have been having to re-use boxes due to the wood shortage.


True. I wonder if they're changing the dates out. It comes on a piece of paper that is slid in between the pieces of cedar at the back of the box.


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## carni (Jan 18, 2007)

Navydoc said:


> Interesting....I don't have any Pepins so I'm curious....do they have month and year production dates? or some other code....are you aware of any others?


Month and year. Great cigar, pick a couple up and let me know what you think. I would send a few but unfortunatly I am out of them at the time being.


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## carni (Jan 18, 2007)

NCRadioMan said:


> Yep, they are stamped with month and year. Example: Oct 2006


My bad, I am a little slow. Must have been the :w in the past.


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## MoTheMan (May 24, 2003)

Navydoc said:


> My take on the aged cigars issue is two fold....first I enjoy the older blends used in the 80's and early 90's. There has clearly been changes towards the more milder blends in recent years which may be why so many prefer the newer production cigars (custom rolled being excluded). Secondly, I believe that infact there are changes that occur in the blended tobacco over years and is quite evident if you smoke a vertical of the same cigar (meaning same manufac., same vitola, different years). A well kept cigar will not loose the "oils" found on the wrapper so I don't go for that argument. As far as I'm aware there are no box codes on NC's so confirming date of production is difficult if not impossible. I have friends who will only smoke old cigars and those that will only smoke newer cigars...me...well, I smoke cigars new or old if they taste good:ss


AH! Now this is an interesting topic 'cause I think that cigar production has undergone revolutionary changes in recent years (past 3-5), starting with Altadis's partnership with Habanos.

Here's what I've noticed, and some of the members of this board may disagree with me, BUT, when you think hard about it, I bet you'd probably agree.

Cigar blends have been tweaked quite a bit over the past few years. Gone are the "artisan" quality cigars that you used to see from the 60's through the 80's. There's less art in the cigar production. Not that this means that cigar quality has decreased, just that the same marquee is actually different.

Now what's been driving this has nothing to do with "quality", as much as it has to do with the competition. And the competition we're talking about are the Fuentes, the Padrons, the Toranos, Patels, Perdomos, etc... Keep in mind that Altadis isn't just an exclusive habanos distributor, they also have their hands deep (to the elbows) in distribution and even manufacture of lots of other brands. They know their numbers. They know what the cost per cigar is for the big brands . . . and those guys put out good produc!!

Well, Altadis & Habanos figure that if you want to stay competitive, you need to streamline operations, lower variable cost, maintain standard quality, etc . . . You get the picture.

So here's what I've seen happen. I think THE BLENDS HAVE CHANGED. Not by much. Just simplified a bit so that the majority of the flavors & nuances are still there, but the production is much more streamlined. Instead of 4 types of leaves, they're using 3 but putting them in a different order so that the flavor & burn are preserved.

First time I noticed a difference was in a recent production Sir Winston. Not quite the same complexity as an older Sir Winnie, even for its youth, but pretty much the same flavor, strength, and general enjoyability. I'm sure that with 10-20 years on it it'll be magnificant, although a slight bit different from a 20 y.o. Sir Winnie today.

So what am I gonna do? I'm going all out to find every aged & pre-embargo stick I can find & acquire it. NOT Seriously, I think there're plenty of real good recent production stuff out there. Take for example the PSP2's, recent PLPC's, Cohiba Reserva, even the R&J Robusto EL (which I know of people here who like it very much  ). All recent cigars, that IMO, are great sticks with excellent aging potential.

It used to be, back in the 50's, 60's, 70's, even up to the early 90's that Torecedor training was more rigorous, took many years to reach master level, and emphasizxed the blending skills to achieve certain tastes & burning qualities. Now a days, it's much more about putting the leaves in good order & getting that bunch rolled right. Let the factory supervisors decide what the blend will be, the torcedors will roll it expediently & efficiently. Masters like Taboada are going to be fewer, although still out there, they just won't be using their skill to the same degree.

The lesson, I guess, is that things change. We can reminesce about older stuff, but let's not chase the old so much that we overlook the good stuff that's here right now.

Anyways, thanks for letting this FOG hijack this thread. Had a few things I wanted to say and found the opportunity here to say them. :s


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## Sandman (Mar 26, 2006)

MoTheMan said:


> AH! Now this is an interesting topic 'cause I think that cigar production has undergone revolutionary changes in recent years (past 3-5), starting with Altadis's partnership with Habanos.
> 
> Here's what I've noticed, and some of the members of this board may disagree with me, BUT, when you think hard about it, I bet you'd probably agree.
> 
> ...


These are the type of posts that just keep me coming back for more.


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