# Illusione and Rev. Jim Jones



## NCRadioMan (Feb 28, 2005)

I recently saw an Illusione ad in Cigar Press mag that featured the Rev. Jim Jones. I did some searching and found that Dion(the owner of the brand) was using the same wallpaper at IPCPR this year. You can see it just over his shoulder. I like the Illusione line but this kinda thing turns me off to the product. Am I alone in feeling this way?










The writer of the article that this pic came from summed up my feelings:



> (Sorry, killing reporters, which Jones' people did - Don Harris of NBC News for one - and a Congressman along with nearly 1,000 people including 276 children is NOT funny.) Dion may make some good cigars, but he went way over the line on this occasion and I, for one, will not spend any money on a business that tries to capitalize on a tragedy. It takes what happened at Jonestown lightly and uses it for marketing.


I know some younger folks may not know the story, so here it is. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones


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## UPHOTO (May 21, 2008)

I just talked to him about this a few weeks ago.....

Some people are going to get it and others won't. His feelings on it is that he wants to be different, looking for that edgier crowd that can laugh at something like his add.

"Taste the coolaid" is what he told me.  He's mocking the hype that is going on, he's telling people to jump on the bandwagon and buy his cigars. 

It's all in fun and yes VERY edgy. He showed me another idea he has and it will ruffle MANY feathers of people here if it goes to print.


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## awsmith4 (Jun 5, 2007)

Edgy and tasteless are too different things imho


With that being said, I hate communism but continue to seek out Cuban cigars


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## wintersway (Jul 24, 2006)

NCRadioMan said:


> I recently saw an Illusione ad in Cigar Press mag that featured the Rev. Jim Jones. I did some searching and found that Dion(the owner of the brand) was using the same wallpaper at IPCPR this year. You can see it just over his shoulder. I like the Illusione line but this kinda thing turns me off to the product. Am I alone in feeling this way?
> 
> The writer of the article that this pic came from summed up my feelings:
> 
> I know some younger folks may not know the story, so here it is. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones


Yeah, that and this interview helped me to decide not to give them my cash:

http://www.stogiefresh.com/journal/.../2007/9/6_Dion_Giolito:_Illusione_Cigars.html


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## CigarGal (Jun 2, 2006)

It isn't edgy-it is sick.


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## NCRadioMan (Feb 28, 2005)

UPHOTO said:


> It's all in fun and yes VERY edgy.


Yep, mass murder is tons of fun. 



UPHOTO said:


> He showed me another idea he has and it will ruffle MANY feathers of people here if it goes to print.


Let me guess, 911 victims.


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## oldforge (Apr 30, 2008)

Sometimes "edgy" humor is fine among close friends--it just dosen't play very well in the public arena.

My advice--drop Jim Jones and the Koolaid.



UPHOTO said:


> I just talked to him about this a few weeks ago.....
> 
> Some people are going to get it and others won't. His feelings on it is that he wants to be different, looking for that edgier crowd that can laugh at something like his add.
> 
> ...


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## Jonesee (Dec 30, 2005)

In corporate America we all laugh at "drinking the kool-aid" and it has become a catch phrase for believing corporate BS hype. But, I wouldn't use it as my advertising hook. I get it, but it didn't set the hook to buy the product. His advertising company was better at their sell, than developing his.


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## Sisyphys (Apr 13, 2008)

oldforge said:


> Sometimes "edgy" humor is fine among close friends--it just dosen't play very well in the public arena.
> 
> My advice--drop Jim Jones and the Koolaid.


I agree. For every person the 'gets it' and thinks it's edgy and funny, there will be 10 that think it's over the line.

Doesn't seem like good business sense to me.


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## mikeyj23 (Feb 25, 2007)

wintersway said:


> Yeah, that and this interview helped me to decide not to give them my cash:
> 
> http://www.stogiefresh.com/journal/.../2007/9/6_Dion_Giolito:_Illusione_Cigars.html


Thanks for the link.

"DOC: As of today, you have 10 different cigars in your lineup, with unusual names like "888," "4/2g" and "cg4." Can you give us a quick summary of your cigars and some insight on what the names mean?

DION: They all relate in some aspects to conspiracy and world domination via our outer-space savior. All of the information is out there; you just have to drill for it. [Doc notes: I have been "drilling" for this information since having this interview and so far, I have broken three drill bits!]"

That gives me the willies.


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## rockyr (Aug 6, 2006)

wintersway said:


> Yeah, that and this interview helped me to decide not to give them my cash:
> 
> http://www.stogiefresh.com/journal/.../2007/9/6_Dion_Giolito:_Illusione_Cigars.html


I like this part of the interview "The world as we know it will end or, at the very least, depart dimensions in late December 2012."

Seriously?! :BS


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## bazookajoe (Nov 2, 2006)

UPHOTO said:


> ...Some people are going to get it and others won't. His feelings on it is that he wants to be different, looking for that edgier crowd that can laugh at something like his add...


It appears from the interview referenced above that this is more than an "edgy" marketing plan. This dude is messed up.


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## SaltFlyTyer (Feb 11, 2008)

I think he is nuts... Maybe jim is his idol and he is gonna poison us all!!!:hn
Very wierd interview.. :2
..kris..


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## dannysguitar (Jun 3, 2008)

FWIW Illusione means illusion in spanish. Maybe that has some meaning to it?


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## SeanGAR (Jul 9, 2004)

I have not had an illusion before. Are they the guys that make "Chateau de Wack Job"??


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## Footbag (May 14, 2008)

I like Illusione, but perhaps he should drop Jim Jones. Not really the type of thing you want your business to associate with.


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## GrtndpwrflOZ (May 17, 2007)

Lets all get righteous.


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## kansashat (Mar 13, 2004)

I guess I don't get the marketing strategy.


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## Addiction (May 8, 2007)

I like Illusione cigars. I am not overly offended by the jim jones reference but I can 100% understand why some would be. It could be funny I suppose but its in poor taste.


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## Costa (Jan 26, 2008)

I could care less about his marketing strategy or his "beliefs". 

His cigars are, imo, some of the best I have smoked, very distinct.


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

I get it, and the cigars still suck, so they don't get any of my money.
I'm far more likely to try a cigar that's aligned with boobs and football rather than evil, tragedy, and poison.
I guess I'm just weird like that. *shrug*


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## SmokeyJoe (Oct 3, 2006)

Love the cigars... but Dion seems truly whacked! 

Hey... there are other cigars to love so I can feel better about it - like from RAUL. :mn


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## oldforge (Apr 30, 2008)

SaltFlyTyer said:


> Very wierd interview.. :2
> ..kris..


Well at a minimum he contradicts himself. He designs a cigar to age ten years and then says the world will end in 2012.

Hmmmm.

:hn

..but I really enjoy his smokes.


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## Boomer (Feb 2, 2008)

I have never seen a more judgemental bunch than this group. Give it a break.


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## UPHOTO (May 21, 2008)

dannysguitar said:


> FWIW Illusione means illusion in spanish. Maybe that has some meaning to it?


exactly.

Come on people!

I think the cigar world at times is to "old school" in not only it's smokers but the mentality. The mentality that you must have the guys standing in the tobacco fields with stupid grins on their faces to market your product is so boring.

The guy has a quirky personality! That's it. He is just messing around and at the same time just not taking himself so seriously. Everybody should try that once in a while.

If he was making cigars for everybody then he would make 50 million cigars a year BUT he is nowhere near that. He knows not everybody will like his product OR him.

Good for him. Appealing to everybody is a waste of a persons time.


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## kansashat (Mar 13, 2004)

Boomer said:


> I have never seen a more judgemental bunch than this group. Give it a break.


Are you judging us? :r


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## bazookajoe (Nov 2, 2006)

Boomer said:


> I have never seen a more judgemental bunch than this group. Give it a break.


So we're not entitled to our own opinions?


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## SmokinApe (Jun 20, 2007)

Did he have nudie mags at his booth?


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## NCRadioMan (Feb 28, 2005)

Boomer said:


> I have never seen a more judgemental bunch than this group. Give it a break.


The thing is Boomer, your life is made up of mostly judgments. Every decision you make is a judgement. So, we are all very judgemental. Example: I made the judgement to come to work today instead of calling in. I made the judgement that I could beat a slow truck at an intersection. I judged whether I should post thread or not. so on and so on.............

I appreciate everyones response. I was just taken aback by the campaign and wondered if others were too.



SmokinApe said:


> Did he have nudie mags at his booth?


:r


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## Costa (Jan 26, 2008)

UPHOTO said:


> exactly.
> 
> Come on people!
> 
> ...


Couldn't have said it better myself.:ss


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## pro2625 (Jun 25, 2008)

Looks like he is trying to pull a marilyn manson.....Next thing you know people will die and they will blame this guy for his marketing:r


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## weak_link (Jan 13, 2008)

shilala said:


> I get it, and the cigars still suck, so they don't get any of my money.


I really enjoy his cigars so when someone sends them to you in a bomb, you now know who to pass them on to. :ss

The marketing is pretty odd and I guess I've had my head in the sand because I never noticed. Then again I generally don't look at cigar adverts or most mags.


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## Costa (Jan 26, 2008)

This thread proves the marketing works.


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## petewho (May 22, 2008)

I did not know the entire Jim Jones story. I just read up on it, and it made me choke. I won't be buying any Illusione products.


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## Mr. Ed (Nov 12, 2007)

Crazy. However, I think it's all an act. :2


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## NCRadioMan (Feb 28, 2005)

Costa said:


> This thread proves the marketing works.


Oh, I agree. I've always thought that there is no such thing as bad publicity becasue many, many will see it. Kinda like the anti-smoking TRUTH ad campaign. It's a way for the baccy companies to advertise when they are legally not supposed to, on tv.


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## Slow Triathlete (Jun 14, 2007)

My personal feeling is that he is going to laugh himself right out of business.


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## groogs (Oct 13, 2007)

Costa said:


> I could care less about his marketing strategy or his "beliefs".
> 
> His cigars are, imo, some of the best I have smoked, very distinct.


 :tpd: I like his cigars, and that is all that matters to me.


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## SeanGAR (Jul 9, 2004)

Costa said:


> This thread proves the marketing works.


Marketing is designed to entice people to try a product. You see that here?


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2008)

The problem with the marketing is that Americans tend to be judgmental, (Sorry, Boomer, that's life). Americans also tend to react with their pocket books. If one in ten gets the advertising, then nine are NOT going to, and that translates into dollars lost. Seems a strange way to make money, potentially driving off 90% of customers! As an independent, self employed businessman, I tend to think in terms of building customer base, not alienating it. Regardless of the judgments here, the common sense from a business point seems to have been poorly thought out.

For the record, I was alive and tuned into world events when that ashant did the koolaid trip. There is nothing good about the event that makes it worthy of use as a positive marketing strategy. It was and still is a SAD, SICK commentary on the depths some will go to in the name of religion and self glory. Jim Jones is as much an example of a false prophet then as the muij are today.


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## Grumpy Dano (Jul 22, 2008)

What Jim Jones did was such an evil horrifying few moments in history. We all should learn from those moments and not allow this dude or anyone else to use those moments to poke fun at those he can manipulate with such ads.

Screw him and his cigars, he will get none of my business....

Maybe his next ads will in fact carry the 9/11 theme, then what? we bow to him more for his creativity????

...not me 

Too Judgmental???????? He was a mass murderer for god sakes.....


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## epyon26 (Dec 16, 2007)

I'm with you NCRM, NOT FUNNY and wrong. And I have a twisted personality, so this is bad.


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## Slow Triathlete (Jun 14, 2007)

Also, with all this talk about the end of the world and mass killings makes me kind of hesitant about smoking his cigars. Who know's what might be in there.


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## Yitlin (Jul 1, 2008)

Meh, had my first Illusione lancero over the weekend. For what it cost, for how much I enjoyed it and now this marketing, I think I'll pass on future purchases of the product.


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## Habsrule29 (May 11, 2005)

It has been my experience that a good cigar sells itself, not some marketing ploy. It also helps if the manufacturer is seen as an upstanding person in the cigar world. Word of mouth, especially on forums such as this, goes a long way to promote a good cigar or product. Yes, we are all talking about his ad campaign and his cigars and giving him some publicity, but at the end of the day, he can only survive if he makes sales. Personally, I wont buy anything from this guy based on his insensitive and tasteless ads.


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## Sawyer (Jul 11, 2007)

Slow Triathlete said:


> Also, with all this talk about the end of the world and mass killings makes me kind of hesitant about smoking his cigars. Who know's what might be in there.


 This is exactly what it made me think about. Doesn't make me want to go out and buy his cigars even though I have had and enjoyed them in the past. Pretty disturbing to try and sell a consumable product by relating it to cyanide laced cool-aid.


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## taltos (Feb 28, 2006)

I agree with the majority that this advertising is wrong and would not cause me to buy his products. That thing about 2012 and the end of the world is from a prediction by the Mayan civilization where they gave a date in 2012 when the world would reorder itself and the world would end as we know it. I would be curious if he wears blue polo shirts, chinos and nike shoes when he is not making appearances. Too bad that he missed the first space ship.


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## Kaisersozei (Feb 5, 2008)

Dion's a CS member here, maybe he'll chime in at some point...

I like the Illusione 68 & 888. Haven't tried the cg4. I think they are excellent cigars. The ad campaign doesn't upset me too much--but I'm not easily offended. I can see how some people might be. 

I'd be more concerned if I discovered that his revenues were going to support terrorism or some wacked-out environmental agenda, or something else that I was morally opposed to. This is just his creative expression and it's no big deal if I don't agree with his creative process in advertising...


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## CigarGal (Jun 2, 2006)

shilala said:


> I'm far more likely to try a cigar that's aligned with boobs and football rather than evil, tragedy, and poison.
> I guess I'm just weird like that. *shrug*


This is what marketing is all about. His quirkiness and "edgy" approach will only appeal to a small number of the population and anyone in business knows marketing is key to financial success. I am not passing judgement on his beliefs, I am probably just as weird in some areas as the next guy, and I haven't smoked his cigars-I have one in the humi to smoke some day-but his marketing strategy based on a horrific world event is just wrong-no matter how hip you want to be.

On the other hand, does the marketing approach of boobs and football go together? Or is the use of either one what appeals to you? Now I like them both, but I don't see the connection between the two.


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## pnoon (Jun 8, 2005)

Kaisersozei said:


> Dion's a CS member here, maybe he'll chime in at some point...
> 
> I like the Illusione 68 & 888. Haven't tried the cg4. I think they are excellent cigars. The ad campaign doesn't upset me too much--but I'm not easily offended. I can see how some people might be.
> 
> I'd be more concerned if I discovered that his revenues were going to support terrorism or some wacked-out environmental agenda, or something else that I was morally opposed to. *This is just his creative expression and it's no big deal if I don't agree with his creative process in advertising*...


Would that change if he was using the 9/11 tragedy or pedophilia (just to name a couple)?


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## nozero (Jul 7, 2007)

Hmmmph! IMO it's his choice to advertise how he sees fit and he will be the one to suffer any resultant consequences. It's far more likely that the cost of his cigars would prevent me from purchasing them than would his advertising ploy.
:2


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## butterbeezy (Sep 12, 2007)

I wasn't around for Jim Jones and his insanity, but as a San Franciscan, i am very aware of him. I think it's horrible that he's using him as a marketing ploy. He might as well use Bin Laden, Charles Manson or The Trench Coat Mafia in his ads as well. Seeing this turns me off to his smokes.


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## Gophernut (Jun 26, 2008)

SvilleKid said:


> For the record, I was alive and tuned into world events when that ashant did the koolaid trip. There is nothing good about the event that makes it worthy of use as a positive marketing strategy. It was and still is a SAD, SICK commentary on the depths some will go to in the name of religion and self glory. Jim Jones is as much an example of a false prophet then as the muij are today.


 :tpd: I was too, although young at the time, and I can't see why anyone would want to align themselves with this horrible situation. Jim Jones had people, including a US Congressman, murdered. Then he basically had the witnesses kill themselves! 
I have recently smoked my first Illusione. It will be my last.


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## Costa (Jan 26, 2008)

Off topic, but man, have we become a society of over-sensitive politically correct social police. In some arena's, the job of marketing is to get your brand "out there". These are cigars people, not baby food. After the product gets "out there", its then the job of the product to seal the deal, i.e. be good enough for to create brand loyalty and return customers/sales. The guy is out there, but to insuniate that there could be "something in his cigars" based on his beliefs, even in joking, is a little, um, a foolish (being nice here).

Smoke 'em if you like 'em, if you don't like 'em, buy something else.


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## Fumioso (Apr 28, 2006)

Maybe I was the only one who saw some humor in the SOLD OUT signs tacked on to the Jim Jones pics... Sick, yes, I know. 

Dion HAS to know that this marketing "strategy" will repulse and repel people from his product. Clearly, he doesn't care. 

It doesn't even qualify as commentary on Jim Jones -- what the hell does it mean? What did it mean last year when he used the Vatican flag to dress up his booth? It just doesn't make any sense... but it does get attention.


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## pro2625 (Jun 25, 2008)

Costa said:


> Off topic, but man, have we become a society of over-sensitive politically correct social police. In some arena's, the job of marketing is to get your brand "out there". These are cigars people, not baby food. After the product gets "out there", its then the job of the product to seal the deal, i.e. be good enough for to create brand loyalty and return customers/sales. The guy is out there, but to insuniate that there could be "something in his cigars" based on his beliefs, even in joking, is a little, um, a foolish (being nice here).
> 
> Smoke 'em if you like 'em, if you don't like 'em, buy something else.


I wont come to your funeral

:r


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## Kaisersozei (Feb 5, 2008)

pnoon said:


> Would that change if he was using the 9/11 tragedy or pedophilia (just to name a couple)?


Would I consider 9/11 or pedophila to be tasteless topics for an ad? Since we're talking hypothetically, then hypothetically "yes."

Would it change how I felt about his _cigars_? No. I'm smoking a cigar, not an ad. "Image" advertising like that has absolutely no impact on my decision to buy one of his cigars. I don't get the ad campaign, I'm not sure what Jonestown has to do with cigars, so I'm obviously not one of his "edgy" customers. But based on the quality of the Illusione cigars I've had, I'd probably sample one of those Jonestown numbers, too.:ss

Let's take the reverse angle on this--and something less....controversial: those United Airlines ads that ran during the Olympics. They were beautiful, visually stunning, exceptionally artistic ads. I enjoyed watching them. What did they have to do with flying United? Nothing. Did they make me want to go out and buy a ticket on United? No, because of my previous negative experiences with United.

So on the one hand I can say, "Jonestown? Dumb ad campaign, but great cigar, I'm gonna buy one." And on the other, "United Olympics? Great ad campaign, but horrible airline, I'm gonna pass." Neither image ad had any affect on my decision to buy their products.


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## Warren (Apr 6, 2007)

For me it's 90% about the cigar and how it tastes and 10% who is behind the product. That being said, I'm not a big fan of any of Dion's products that I have tried so far. They aren't bad but for similar money you can get a Pepin made stick. :2


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## bobarian (Oct 1, 2007)

Marketing in today's world means getting your name exposed to the consumer. The fact that this thread now runs 4 pages shows how effective this approach has been. 
Marketing is not how I make my cigar purchasing decisions. :2


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## hoax (Aug 7, 2007)

I don't see the big deal. Chances are;

You buy cheap consumer goods from China.
You buy oil from the Middle East.
You buy cigars from Cuba.

But you draw the line at buying from a company that uses a picture of Jim Jones as a joke. I guess that's your right, but it seems rather petty to me.


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## Grumpy Dano (Jul 22, 2008)

Costa said:


> ..........The guy is out there, but to insuniate that there could be "something in his cigars" based on his beliefs, even in joking, is a little, um, a foolish (being nice here).
> 
> Smoke 'em if you like 'em, if you don't like 'em, buy something else.


Your right Dion, or whoever he is, is most likely not like that but Jim Jones WAS!!!

Because there *was* a **little something** in the flavored grape juice that allowed 900 people to die....300 of which died first because they were children and the parents had to hold them down and calm them while they were ............dying. 

This guy is using a mass murderer as an ad for his profits. I don't think this guy is stupid enough to use the ad the way he is using it, unless he knows exactly what Jim Jones was all about.

Its a shock ad, to promote his product. Some say how dare he, and some say they were not really around so they don't realize what a monster the evil Reverend Jones was.

But some of us were around and just like witnessing 9/11.....it will never be forgotten for the true act of horror and unjustified human sacrifice it was.....

So like you said buy them if you like them...well in a way I am glad to be a noob to all this, and probably not even supposed to make my feelings known this intense.....not enough time in grade ya know????

...but I will never buy one :2


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## sikk50 (Feb 14, 2008)

I'm not going to pretend that I knew what this was untill I read the wiki on it, but I will say that even as a younger person who is probaly more desencitised to this sort of thing, I feel this is THE sickest most tasteless ad I've seen in the cigar industry


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## Habanolover (Feb 22, 2006)

Poor marketing IMO. What's next,
the OBL 2001,
the VT 2007,
or maybe the KKK 1965? I mean afterall it is just a gimmick right? 


ps I have tried the CG and it was strangely like smoking a Macanudo. Pretty much no flavor at all unless air is a flavor.:2


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## butterbeezy (Sep 12, 2007)

I'm just not down with promoting mass murderers. Would you buy groceries from a store that had this poster on the wall???


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## clampdown (Feb 7, 2006)

Poor tastes, probably, but as Americans we are pretty hypocritical bunch. We cry foul about a company who uses Jim Jones in his ads and refuse to buy his products, but we have no problem buying goods from countries that regularly commit human rights abuses (China, Saudia Arabia, Cuba, India etc). Many oil producing nations regularly suprise the religious rights of Christians (which having been a member of CS for some time, many people associate themselves with) but we still drive to the gas stations that recieve the oil from these same nations and we never bat an eye (or I can say a large percentage of the population doesnt). If you dont like something you see on the television or hear on the radio, turn the channel. If you dont like the ads this guy uses, dont buy from him. I had no idea about these ads until I read this thread, and to be honest it doesnt change my opinion on his "cigars" but has made me think twice about buying from him again. 

Now I have to go now the world is ending in four years and I have to smoke my Boli PC, produced in a nation whose leader (wherever he may be) is accused of countless crimes against his people and even allowed missles to be placed in his country and aimed at us over 40 years ago, but I cant help it, they are just so tasty.


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## NCRadioMan (Feb 28, 2005)

clampdown said:


> Poor tastes, probably, but as Americans we are pretty hypocritical bunch. We cry foul about a company who uses Jim Jones in his ads and refuse to buy his products, but we have no problem buying goods from countries that regularly commit human rights abuses (China, Saudia Arabia, Cuba, India etc).


You are right and as the starter of this thread I admit that I am so very guilty of such. However, with commies and others you mentioned you know what you are going to get up front. With folks like Jim Jones, you don't know till it's too late. Maybe that's what gets to petty little ole me.


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## chippewastud79 (Sep 18, 2007)

For what its worth, do I think that the maker of the cigar is a nut job? Probably. But will it stop me from buying the product? Likely not.

Who is to say that the heads of all the corporations we buy products from or the people we idolize(d) aren't nut jobs? 
Donald Trump is a nut job, but I won money at his casino. 
John Madden is a whacko, but I played his video game. 
Pete Johnson is getting a little loopy, but I still smoke his cigars. 
Tom Cruise might be certifiably insane, but I still think Top Gun is a great movie. 
Just examples I guess, maybe I am nuts too. 

And it was Grape Flavor-Aid, *NOT* Kool-Aid that was used.


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## pro2625 (Jun 25, 2008)

Grumpy Dano said:


> Your right Dion, or whoever he is, is most likely not like that but Jim Jones WAS!!!
> 
> Because there *was* a **little something** in the flavored grape juice that allowed 900 people to die....300 of which died first because they were children and the parents had to hold them down and calm them while they were ............dying.
> 
> ...


Best post of the thread....Im going to bump your RG :tu


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## Costa (Jan 26, 2008)

> as Americans we are pretty hypocritical bunch.


Bingo. But if the Pope graced those posters, not many would have an issue. You want evil? Look at the history of Catholicism.

Just so everyone knows, if you buy this cigar, your money is not actually funding an organization that kills/terrorizes people.

Can you say that about the other products you buy; gas in your car, t-shirt made in China, the diamond you bought your wife??? How many of your wives and girlfriends are wearing conflict diamonds?

Did you take the time to check? Probably not. Too much trouble. Easier to jump on the "moral high ground", and pound the table and say "how dare they use Jim Jones", and then quickly wiki "Jim Jones".


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## Habanolover (Feb 22, 2006)

Costa said:


> Bingo. But if the Pope graced those posters, not many would have an issue. You want evil? Look at the history of Catholicism.
> 
> Just so everyone knows, if you buy this cigar, your money is not actually funding an organization that kills/terrorizes people.
> 
> ...


Some of us do not have to use "Wiki" for everything.


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## Don Fernando (Jan 1, 2000)

Never seen a thread in the same light about these, which have been around a long ol' time. Would never have thought twice about it, seeing an "Al Capone" cigar ..... no big deal.

The Jim Jones reference, however, rubs me wrong.

So .... why one & not the other ? .... Maybe because I watched the Jim Jones massacre play out on the news reels when I was young. Were I 10-20 years younger than I am, I'm not so certain that I'd feel the same. Were I 30-40 years older than I am, I may not feel the same about Al Capones.

Last week, I saw someone wearing a John Wayne Gacy T-shirt. 2 weeks ago, I saw someone wearing a Charles Manson T-shirt. The Gacy shirt had me more on edge then the Manson shirt......but then, I wasn't really around to watch the news unfold about the Tate-Labianca murders .... The John Wayne Gacy shocked me realtime.

I dunno. 

The bottom line for me is that I think there are *much* better cigars out there for *much* less money. Makes it easy not to buy them.


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## renton20-cl (Apr 1, 2008)

chippewastud79 said:


> For what its worth, do I think that the maker of the cigar is a nut job? Probably. But will it stop me from buying the product? Likely not.
> 
> Who is to say that the heads of all the corporations we buy products from or the people we idolize(d) aren't nut jobs?
> Donald Trump is a nut job, but I won money at his casino.
> ...


I have to agree. I find it hard to believe that some people are taken aback about a * joke * that this guy made in bad taste, then turn around and support a communist country that has made a habit of black bagging its citizens. Taking a look at who has killed more, I'm willing to bet that Castro has substantially more blood on his hands.


----------



## Major Captain Silly (May 24, 2007)

I think that using Jim Jones as a market ploy shows an incredible amount of arrogance on Dion's part. I've never seen that type of arrogance in most cigar makers. It certainly makes me think twice about smoking the brand.

MCS


----------



## Thaplumbr (Dec 30, 2007)

shilala said:


> I get it, and the cigars still suck, so they don't get any of my money.
> I'm far more likely to try a cigar that's aligned with boobs and football rather than evil, tragedy, and poison.
> I guess I'm just weird like that. *shrug*


:tpd: me too brother!


----------



## MithShrike (Jan 29, 2007)

Meh, it doesn't bother me. I'll still smoke the things.

From the horse's mouth:



> I understand completely the feelings certain people must have regarding Jim Jones and his following. I make no apologies or excuses for what I did. There is, however a much different meaning than just hanging the image of the Reverend in my booth. Many times, we here in the forums referred to "drinking the kool-aid" with regards to certain brands in our industry. It is somewhat confusing to me that we can refer by phrase (Drink the Kool-aid) to such a horrible incident - in jest and, without repercussion yet, when an image is presented, it evokes a much different reaction. I did not put the Reverend up there as a marketing tool. I do not subscribe to the manner in which he chose to deliver the word of God and, I certainly don't advocate any sort of hive-mentality, mass murder. Those pictures were in the booth for a much different reason. Simply put, those images represent choice - the choices people make to be specific. The freedom of choose a cigar that speaks to you through the smoke and not a choice made for you by media, hype, scantily clad women, throngs of reviews or, the millions of dollars put into advertizing just to get you to smoke something that wouldn't even approach your taste profile. You see, it's all about the Mind Kontrol utilized by advertizing, media, and public figures all heaped upon us through products and, philosophical or political views. For many, it's just easier to follow the masses so that they have something in common with another while conversing at the water cooler - that's just human nature. It was my intention to make people see beyond the constant barrage of hype and the feeding frenzy of the "latest and greatest." If you choose not to smoke my cigars because they just don't do it for you or fit your taste profile, I have much respect for you. I will most certainly loose a few fans. These are people who I would not have much in common with other than the love of a cigar. I've made many friends this way and will strive to continue to make friends through my cigars. If you choose to not smoke my cigar because of the way I wear my hair, my sideburns, the way I dress or, certain personality traits then, there is nothing I can do because I won't change a single thing to conform to someone else's beliefs or, a mass-marketed, led-by-the-hand way of life.
> 
> Dion Giolito


----------



## SmokinApe (Jun 20, 2007)

I am confused are we to boycott these cigars? What are we supposed to do if we see someone smoking one? I agree that the advertisement does speak to the marketer and manufacturer but does it speak to the smoker?


----------



## NCRadioMan (Feb 28, 2005)

Thank you MithShrike. I can understand his motivations and explaination. But like he says "those images represent choice". I hope I wouldn't be chastised for choosing not to buy them as I would not do that to those that do.

This *never *was about any kind of boycott. I was just asking if it rubbed others the wrong way like it did me. No more, no less. Like I said, I like the cigars. I've always said, smoke what you like and like what you smoke.

BTW, I like his cloths, hair and happnin' sideburns.


----------



## Major Captain Silly (May 24, 2007)

NCRadioMan said:


> BTW, I like his cloths, hair and happnin' sideburns.


Does it remind you of anyone???










MCS


----------



## ttours (Jan 28, 2007)

Either you profess your faith, principles, beliefs and morals when called to task or you dont. If you can't then you have no faith, principles, beliefs and morals. Stand for what you believe, is it really that hard.? Can't see how being gutless is a good thing.

Roasts my chestnuts personally!!

tt:cb


----------



## NCRadioMan (Feb 28, 2005)

Major Captain Silly said:


> Does it remind you of anyone???
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hael yess! Exactly what I was thinking. :r


----------



## Puffin Fresh (Nov 1, 2006)

clampdown said:


> Poor tastes, probably, but as Americans we are pretty hypocritical bunch. We cry foul about a company who uses Jim Jones in his ads and refuse to buy his products, but we have no problem buying goods from countries that regularly commit human rights abuses (China, Saudia Arabia, Cuba, India etc). Many oil producing nations regularly suprise the religious rights of Christians (which having been a member of CS for some time, many people associate themselves with) but we still drive to the gas stations that recieve the oil from these same nations and we never bat an eye (or I can say a large percentage of the population doesnt). If you dont like something you see on the television or hear on the radio, turn the channel. If you dont like the ads this guy uses, dont buy from him. I had no idea about these ads until I read this thread, and to be honest it doesnt change my opinion on his "cigars" but has made me think twice about buying from him again.
> 
> Now I have to go now the world is ending in four years and I have to smoke my Boli PC, produced in a nation whose leader (wherever he may be) is accused of countless crimes against his people and even allowed missles to be placed in his country and aimed at us over 40 years ago, but I cant help it, they are just so tasty.


Don't we get most of our oil from Canada? Damn canucks. :r



chippewastud79 said:


> And it was Grape Flavor-Aid, *NOT* Kool-Aid that was used.


The bastard even gave them the cheep stuff as their last drink.

All kidding aside, I "get" his ad. That being said, it's VERY poor taste and I won't buy his cigars not just because of the ad, but because of who he seems to be.


----------



## pro2625 (Jun 25, 2008)

Sauer Grapes said:


> Don't we get most of our oil from Canada? Damn canucks. :r
> 
> The bastard even gave them the cheep stuff as their last drink.
> 
> All kidding aside, I "get" his ad. That being said, it's VERY poor taste and I won't buy his cigars not just because of the ad, but because of who he seems to be.


Im going to avoid his products as I really ont want cyanide laced cigars

:r


----------



## SeanGAR (Jul 9, 2004)

He should have just stuck with scantily clad women ..... doesn't get old.


----------



## Asher (Feb 4, 2008)

I guess I'm reading this ad very differently than most of you. There are some cigar companies that reply heavily on a "cool factor" to sell their cigars. One of these companies has gone so far as to hire a Director of Lifestyle Marketing to associate their product with celebrities and glamorous lifestyles.

It sounds like Dion would rather have cigars be judged on their merits, as opposed to having marketing professionals create a _cult_-like atmosphere around the products. He's not using Jonestown to sell the products; he's saying *don't* just blindly follow someone else's lead. I don't find that offensive at all.

Using an actual image of Jim Jones may be going a bit far, but the "drink the Kool-Aid" phrase has been a part of a national parlance for a long time now.


----------



## Gophernut (Jun 26, 2008)

pro2625 said:


> Im going to avoid his products as I really dont want cyanide laced cigars
> 
> :r


 How bout Grape cyanide laced cigars???:chk


----------



## LkyLindy (Feb 1, 2008)

Slow Triathlete said:


> Also, with all this talk about the end of the world and mass killings makes me kind of hesitant about smoking his cigars. Who know's what might be in there.


Absolutely--This muhfu might be so "edgy" that he wants to take all of us with him


----------



## pro2625 (Jun 25, 2008)

Gophernut said:


> How bout Grape cyanide laced cigars???:chk


You must be talking about grape flavored swishers!


----------



## clampdown (Feb 7, 2006)

Sauer Grapes said:


> Don't we get most of our oil from Canada? Damn canucks. :rQUOTE]
> 
> Dont get me started on those socialist pigs. :r:r:r
> 
> But no, we get 9% of our oil from Canada, 8% comes from Saudi Arabia and another 8% comes from Venezula (and a bunch of others that Im too lazy to list here). Ok, thread jack over, back to the cigars.


----------



## Kaisersozei (Feb 5, 2008)

MithShrike said:


> Meh, it doesn't bother me. I'll still smoke the things.
> 
> From the horse's mouth: <snip>


Ah, now I get it, thanks for the post MithShrike!

Can I still qualify as "edgy" if I had to have it explained to me?!


----------



## LkyLindy (Feb 1, 2008)

Yes-
Dion should be free to advertise any way that he wants and to rationalize his marketing link to Jones

However after reading the Doc stogie interview and other comments from Dion---Do I want to injest anything that he MANUFACTURES???--I think not!!!!!!!!


----------



## Beer Doctor (Jul 31, 2007)

Addiction said:


> I am not overly offended by the jim jones reference but I can 100% understand why some would be. It could be funny I suppose but its in poor taste.


 :tpd:

I've never had an Illusione cigar. I still want to try them even if they're marketing campaign should be :bn


----------



## Homebrewer (May 31, 2008)

Please don't buy these cigars anymore. Save them all for me.


----------



## Grumpy Dano (Jul 22, 2008)

Michelle Obama just said on CBS Evening news.."I'm not drinking the Koo-Aide I know my husband" (I almost fell out of my stool here)

So I guess I just been put in my place......:r

I need another stogie...quick!!! :tu


----------



## SmokinApe (Jun 20, 2007)

Does Michelle smoke cg4s?


----------



## Emjaysmash (May 29, 2008)

SmokinApe said:


> Does Michelle smoke cg4s?


Only when she's terrorist fist-bumping.


----------



## pro2625 (Jun 25, 2008)

Obama bin laden


----------



## 68TriShield (May 15, 2006)

To answer your query Greg,yes it does bug me.
The product sells itself, so why all the attention whoring?


----------



## Ozz1113 (Feb 13, 2008)

I don't care for the ad, but I'll still buy their product every now and then.
Let me ask you this from the other side...Do you buy Fuentes more b\c they donate to kids? I don't.


----------



## sonick (Jan 30, 2007)

I could care less about the photo... Illusiones are some of the finest smokes going. The first cg:4 I had over a year ago stands as the finest taste experience I've had from any cigar to date. Not even my Davidoffs can top that first cg:4. I'ma keep smokin' 'em. Plus, Dion bombed the hell out of me when I wrote him about how stellar the cg:4 was, he's a good guy.


----------



## Mr. Ed (Nov 12, 2007)

To echo some previous posts: How many of us have bought cigars that came from the unmentionable island and not complained?


----------



## huero71 (May 4, 2008)

Homebrewer said:


> Please don't buy these cigars anymore. Save them all for me.


...and me. :ss


----------



## ahbroody (Mar 24, 2008)

Like the sticks, fairly religious person, living in the bay area I have learned to accept many different view points.

Is he harming anyone? I would say no. While his add may be offensive its not harmful. This is america and you have a right to voice your dislike with your wallet. I seriously doubt it will impact his sales greatly or his populrity. 

He makes a good cigar, he is likely a little crazy, he isnt hurting anyone.

More cigars for this jesus freak to enjoy :tu


----------



## tzaddi (Feb 24, 2007)

For what it's worth&#8230;

After reading through this thread and learning a little bit more about my fellow members I was reminded of the "Boiled Frog" Story.

Although there are many versions, it goes something like this.

*The Boiled Frog*

They say that if you put a frog into a pot of boiling water, 
it will leap out right away to escape the danger.
But, if you put a frog in a kettle that is filled with water that is cool and pleasant,
and then you gradually heat the kettle until it starts boiling, 
the frog will not become aware of the threat until it is too late. 
The frog's survival instincts are geared towards detecting sudden changes.

I'm not saying&#8230; I'm just saying 

Being informed and aware makes for better choices not mater what they are.


----------



## yayson (Aug 21, 2006)

if he'd used some version of the socially acceptable verbage "drink the Kool-Aid" he'd have been ok but to use the image of Jones clearly took it to a different feather-ruffling place

Jones was a sick twist


----------



## ScottishSmoker (Feb 11, 2007)

I think the Jim Jones ad is one of the better marketing tools used in the Premium Tobacco markets....It has made a lot of you get pissed about something that, that albeit was an incredibly horrible part of human history, has no real effect on overall sales of his Illusione brand. So what if he is into conspiracy theory and the end of the world in 2012...I honestly have to say he is one of the most upfront people AND best people in the industry right now... On top of that, from being at and speaking with him, plus bringing him a gift of a bottle of Zacapa 23, I have to say I have a lot of respect for him as a person in this industry. Also, no other vendor at the RTDA had the same buzz going around as he did. CAO launched the new LX2...big deal...they did not sell out...DION SOLD EVERYTHING HE HAD...obviously, the market will not see a major effect from this or any other ad he should place. Illusione Cigars to me are one of the best products on the current market. If you do not like the ad, do not support the brand. It could be worse, he could have to hide the fact his cigars are crap by putting them in a lighted humidor or limiting them to four shipments a year...I will continue buying Illusiones...hell, I picked some more up today, but i will also support Dion and his company for as long as I still enjoy his cigars...His ad affected me in no way...


----------



## montecristo#2 (May 29, 2006)

People do weird stuff in marketing all the time, sometimes it works, other times it does not. 

A couple of months ago we were talking about Holt's ripping Padilla in their catalog, now we are talking about Dion and his brand Illusione, a couple of months from now we will be talking about the next strange marketing strategy. 

I will still buy from Holts and I will probably still buy Illusiones. Honestly (or sadly depending on your side of the fence), if he loses some customers, probably won't affect his sales much.


----------



## icehog3 (Feb 20, 2005)

Costa said:


> This thread proves the marketing works.


If "marketing" means causing me to decide never to spend my money of any of Dion's cigars, I guess it does work.


----------



## pro2625 (Jun 25, 2008)

icehog3 said:


> If "marketing" means causing me to decide never to spend my money of any of Dion's cigars, I guess it does work.


I concur :r


----------



## Habanolover (Feb 22, 2006)

icehog3 said:


> If "marketing" means causing me to decide never to spend my money of any of Dion's cigars, I guess it does work.





pro2625 said:


> I concur :r


:tpd: I guess we are just not "*edgy*" enough :r


----------



## icehog3 (Feb 20, 2005)

madurolover said:


> :tpd: I guess we are just not "*edgy*" enough :r


But I am bordering on "*pudgy*", will that get me anything?  :r


----------



## Habanolover (Feb 22, 2006)

icehog3 said:


> But I am bordering on "*pudgy*", will that get me anything?  :r


pfffft pudgy, I know all about pudgy. My better half has started calling me 'her little buddha" :r


----------



## SmokeyJoe (Oct 3, 2006)

icehog3 said:


> But I am bordering on "*pudgy*", will that get me anything?  :r


*Pudgy? PUDGY!? If by "pudgy" you mean a ripped man-beast... then you would be "pudgy." :r

If you are pudgy, then I guess that makes me "a quarter-ton of lumpy mashed potatoes!" :r*


----------



## icehog3 (Feb 20, 2005)

madurolover said:


> pfffft pudgy, I know all about pudgy. My better half has started calling me 'her little buddha" :r


"Lil Donnie Buddha".....it's got a ring to it. Might be a good advertising ploy for the Illusiones.  :r


----------



## icehog3 (Feb 20, 2005)

SmokeyJoe said:


> *Pudgy? PUDGY!? If by "pudgy" you mean a ripped man-beast... then you would be "pudgy." :r
> 
> If you are pudgy, then I guess that makes me "a quarter-ton of lumpy mashed potatoes!" :r*


Poetic license, Joe....or perhaps "slap-happiness" at this point in my night. :r


----------



## Habanolover (Feb 22, 2006)

icehog3 said:


> "Lil Donnie Buddha".....it's got a ring to it. Might be a good advertising ploy for the Illusiones.  :r


Just need to get my *body count* up and he might put me on a poster. :tu


----------



## SmokeyJoe (Oct 3, 2006)

icehog3 said:


> "Lil Donnie Buddha".....it's got a ring to it. Might be a good advertising ploy for the Illusiones.  :r


Gotta say... as far as religious figures used for marketing, I would prefer buddha to that nut job back at Jonestown.


----------



## montecristo#2 (May 29, 2006)

Man, this thread just went downhill quick.  :r

I think you guys should take the banter elsewhere! Damn postwhores!

   :r :r :r


----------



## Habanolover (Feb 22, 2006)

montecristo#2 said:


> Man, this thread just went downhill quick.  :r
> 
> I think you guys should take the banter elsewhere! Damn postwhores!
> 
> :r :r :r


We're just trying to be edgy. :r


----------



## icehog3 (Feb 20, 2005)

madurolover said:


> We're just trying to be edgy. :r


It's working!!

Some of the supporters of the campaign kept telling us to "lighten up"....so we did. :r


----------



## Habanolover (Feb 22, 2006)

icehog3 said:


> It's working!!
> 
> Some of the supporters of the campaign kept telling us to "lighten up"....so we did. :r


Thread successfully hijacked Admiral.:tu


----------



## icehog3 (Feb 20, 2005)

madurolover said:


> Thread successfully hijacked Admiral.:tu


We shoulda hijacked it to Cuba, Donnie!


----------



## Habanolover (Feb 22, 2006)

icehog3 said:


> We shoulda hijacked it to Cuba, Donnie!


Maybe Illusione will use hijackers for his next ad campaign. I can see it now, pictures of Buddha and The Admiral all over RTDA. :r


----------



## icehog3 (Feb 20, 2005)

madurolover said:


> Maybe Illusione will use hijackers for his next ad campaign. I can see it now, pictures of Buddha and The Admiral all over RTDA. :r


I don't think they will be allowed to use my image if I am elected President of the United States before then.


----------



## Habanolover (Feb 22, 2006)

icehog3 said:


> I don't think they will be allowed to use my image if I am elected President of the United States before then.


You have my vote. :chk :chk :chk :chk :chk


----------



## icehog3 (Feb 20, 2005)

madurolover said:


> You have my vote. :chk :chk :chk :chk :chk


Only eleventy billion more to go! :ss


----------



## newcigarz (Feb 11, 2007)

tzaddi said:


> Being informed and aware makes for better choices not mater what they are.


:tpd: One of the better statements I've read.


----------



## KingJunior (Jun 1, 2007)

I can't help but ask, you were offended by a Jim Jones reference in an advertisement, but you're a Danzig and Misfits fan?



NCRadioMan said:


> The thing is Boomer, your life is made up of mostly judgments. Every decision you make is a judgement. So, we are all very judgemental. Example: I made the judgement to come to work today instead of calling in. I made the judgement that I could beat a slow truck at an intersection. I judged whether I should post thread or not. so on and so on.............
> 
> I appreciate everyones response. I was just taken aback by the campaign and wondered if others were too.
> 
> :r


----------



## NCRadioMan (Feb 28, 2005)

KingJunior said:


> I can't help but ask, you were offended by a Jim Jones reference in an advertisement, but you're a Danzig and Misfits fan?


No, I wasn't really offended. Just really surprised at the campaign. And yep, I am a Fiend.  I can see where you may be going but there is a big difference between art and reality.


----------



## tandblov (Jun 9, 2005)

This thread contains some of the dumbest posts I have read in a long time.

:tu


----------



## BlackDog (May 19, 2006)

Boomer said:


> I have never seen a more judgemental bunch than this group. Give it a break.


I wonder how fun it would be like to see the picture of the guy who murdered your or my family member being used for "edgy" advertising?

Maybe next it will be "edgy" to have pictures of Ed Gein on clothing and furniture advertisements?


----------



## SR Mike (Feb 4, 2008)

First off, Jim Jones is not a Reverend, it is a title that is reserved for the few individuals who deserve it. That scumbag is nothing more than an Anti-Christ.

Also, the Mayan calender is a revolving calender with a historical and fascinating history. The Mayan calender starts over, it is a cycle, who are the Mayans (who have their own Gods and Idols, which are different from all other religions) to know when the world will end?

As for Dion, he is not reserving any cigars for me. Is his next idea to have a box with Hitler's face and Swastika's on the cigar bands? Edgy? This guy has a wire loose connecting him to reality.



tandblov said:


> This thread contains some of the dumbest posts I have read in a long time.


Are you including yours? You have added some personal insight to this thread that is so enlightening, we can all sit back and bask in your opinion.

:tu


----------



## tandblov (Jun 9, 2005)

SR Mike said:


> Are you including yours? You have added some personal insight to this thread that is so enlightening, we can all sit back and bask in your opinion.
> 
> :tu


Your comments certainly underscore my point.


----------



## pnoon (Jun 8, 2005)

tandblov said:


> Your comments certainly underscore my point.


If you wish to debate the issues in this thread, please feel free to do so. It seems you are just dropping in to insult people. Please refrain from doing so.


----------



## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

CigarGal said:


> On the other hand, does the marketing approach of boobs and football go together? Or is the use of either one what appeals to you? Now I like them both, but I don't see the connection between the two.


Either/or is okay with me. 
For instance, the Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders. You got your football and boobs all mixed up in one glorious outing.
The Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders smoking a Tat, and you have a racy almost breast reference to giggle about, football, and boobs.
I'd even buy the poster. :tu


----------



## tandblov (Jun 9, 2005)

pnoon said:


> If you wish to debate the issues in this thread, please feel free to do so. It seems you are just dropping in to insult people. Please refrain from doing so.


Pnoon,

Should I take the time to copy and paste of the personal insults lobbed at Dion?

My post was made to point out that the over the top insults of Dion are not based on anything.

Disagree with the mans advertising if you are so easily offended, but the insults are simply infantile. Last I checked Dion was a member here in good standing.


----------



## pnoon (Jun 8, 2005)

tandblov said:


> Pnoon,
> 
> Should I take the time to copy and paste of the personal insults lobbed at Dion?
> 
> ...


If he is an active member here, I am not aware. 
Even if he were an active member, two wrongs don't make it right.
I have asked you to stop.

Edit: I did a little digging and apparently Dion's handle here is vudu9. He's about as active and involved here as Sam Leccia - as in NOT active or involved.


----------



## poker (Dec 11, 1997)

Dion is a advertising dumas and Jim Jones is a edicion limitada dumas. :2
thats my opinion.


----------



## SR Mike (Feb 4, 2008)

tandblov said:


> Your comments certainly underscore my point.


You can be specific with what you do not agree and it can be a respected opinion, instead you decided to insult those involved in the thread as a whole.


----------



## icehog3 (Feb 20, 2005)

SR Mike said:


> You can be specific with what you do not agree and it can be a respected opinion, instead you decided to insult those involved in the thread as a whole.


Yeah...that was dumb.


----------



## Costa (Jan 26, 2008)

It would seem to me that if you produce a cigar or are connected to a cigar, you're fair game to be insulted and have your product be unfairly maligned (what could he be putting in his cigars???). 

I thought the thread attacking Sam was pretty bad that was going on a while back (I am aware of the back story), and makes the whole community look terrible, and yes, as was said before, infantile. 

You can't pick and choose who you defend and don't if you want to keep the integrity of this wonderful site intact. 

My :2.


----------



## icehog3 (Feb 20, 2005)

I would like to point out that the majority of posters insulted the advertising campaign, and not the man himself. :2


----------



## ActionAndy (Jul 9, 2008)

SeanGAR said:


> He should have just stuck with scantily clad women ..... doesn't get old.


See the problem is a lot of people in this thread are stuck with old school MASS marketing ideas.

Mass marketing does not work well for new and emerging companies. Read up on "niche" marketing and how popular it is becoming..

The profit is not in pleasing everyone anymore. The internet has created new systems.

The profit is in letting small groups know that THEY are being acknowledged and sold to.

Everyone who "got" the joke and laughed at it knew they were being spoken to.


----------



## ActionAndy (Jul 9, 2008)

NCRadioMan said:


> No, I wasn't really offended. Just really surprised at the campaign. And yep, I am a Fiend.  I can see where you may be going but there is a big difference between art and reality.


The reality is Glenn Danzig's name isn't Danzig.

Danzig was a concentration camp, right?


----------



## icehog3 (Feb 20, 2005)

ActionAndy said:


> See the problem is a lot of people in this thread are stuck with old school MASS marketing ideas.
> 
> Mass marketing does not work well for new and emerging companies. Read up on "niche" marketing and how popular it is becoming..
> 
> ...


Gotta say, based on this thread, that lots and lots of cigar smokers didn't "get" it.....so I guess the advertiser has limited his audience by offending most.


----------



## ActionAndy (Jul 9, 2008)

icehog3 said:


> Gotta say, based on this thread, that lots and lots of cigar smokers didn't "get" it.....so I guess the advertiser has limited his audience by offending most.


Right. I didn't even mean to say people aren't entitled to their opinions (I re-read my post and it looks like I'm trying to take a tone, sorry). My point was that he is _intentionally_ limiting his audience.

You're not "stupid" or anything if you didn't like or laugh at the ad, you just weren't its target.


----------



## NCRadioMan (Feb 28, 2005)

ActionAndy said:


> The reality is Glenn Danzig's name isn't Danzig.
> 
> Danzig was a concentration camp, right?


:r It's a village in Germany. http://ib.frath.net/w/Danzig


----------



## Studebaker (Jan 29, 2007)

icehog3 said:


> Gotta say, based on this thread, that lots and lots of cigar smokers didn't "get" it.....so I guess the advertiser has limited his audience by offending most.


Well said, Mr. President. I don't want to "get" a marketing campaign done in extremely poor taste. It takes more than just a good campaign to get me to buy any product (at least more than once), but an offensive campaign is all it takes for me to want to avoid a product.


----------



## Kwilkinson (Apr 11, 2008)

ActionAndy said:


> Right. I didn't even mean to say people aren't entitled to their opinions (I re-read my post and it looks like I'm trying to take a tone, sorry). My point was that he is _intentionally_ limiting his audience.
> 
> You're not "stupid" or anything if you didn't like or laugh at the ad, you just weren't its target.


 Just my humble opinion, but I highly doubt that he is intentionally limiting his audience. It's not like he gives a damn which people fill his pocket with money. His goal in advertising is to make more money. You don't do that by limiting your audience. And i'm not remarking on this exact jim jones situation, just saying in general that the point of advertising is definitely not to _limit _your audience. It might be the end result, but if it's the intention, then you're doing something wrong.


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## icehog3 (Feb 20, 2005)

ActionAndy said:


> Right. I didn't even mean to say people aren't entitled to their opinions (I re-read my post and it looks like I'm trying to take a tone, sorry). My point was that he is _intentionally_ limiting his audience.
> 
> You're not "stupid" or anything if you didn't like or laugh at the ad, you just weren't its target.


I didn't really read any tone into your post, Andy, I just wonder why someone who makes what seem to be pretty popular cigars would intentionally minimize his audience as well as putting off some of his previous customers.


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## UPHOTO (May 21, 2008)

> I understand completely the feelings certain people must have regarding Jim Jones and his following. I make no apologies or excuses for what I did. There is, however a much different meaning than just hanging the image of the Reverend in my booth. Many times, we here in the forums referred to "drinking the kool-aid" with regards to certain brands in our industry. It is somewhat confusing to me that we can refer by phrase (Drink the Kool-aid) to such a horrible incident - in jest and, without repercussion yet, when an image is presented, it evokes a much different reaction. I did not put the Reverend up there as a marketing tool. I do not subscribe to the manner in which he chose to deliver the word of God and, I certainly don't advocate any sort of hive-mentality, mass murder. Those pictures were in the booth for a much different reason. Simply put, those images represent choice - the choices people make to be specific. The freedom of choose a cigar that speaks to you through the smoke and not a choice made for you by media, hype, scantily clad women, throngs of reviews or, the millions of dollars put into advertizing just to get you to smoke something that wouldn't even approach your taste profile. You see, it's all about the Mind Kontrol utilized by advertizing, media, and public figures all heaped upon us through products and, philosophical or political views. For many, it's just easier to follow the masses so that they have something in common with another while conversing at the water cooler - that's just human nature. It was my intention to make people see beyond the constant barrage of hype and the feeding frenzy of the "latest and greatest." If you choose not to smoke my cigars because they just don't do it for you or fit your taste profile, I have much respect for you. I will most certainly loose a few fans. These are people who I would not have much in common with other than the love of a cigar. I've made many friends this way and will strive to continue to make friends through my cigars. If you choose to not smoke my cigar because of the way I wear my hair, my sideburns, the way I dress or, certain personality traits then, there is nothing I can do because I won't change a single thing to conform to someone else's beliefs or, a mass-marketed, led-by-the-hand way of life.
> 
> Dion Giolito


Just wanted to repost this quote since I don't understand why people still want to hang Dion.

I think his explanation really should change how some people viewed it but oh well.


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## icehog3 (Feb 20, 2005)

UPHOTO said:


> Just wanted to repost this quote since I don't understand why people still want to hang Dion.
> 
> I think his explanation really should change how some people viewed it but oh well.


Not trying to fan the flames, but it didn't change my view on it one bit. :2


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## Costa (Jan 26, 2008)

NCRadioMan said:


> :r It's a village in Germany. http://ib.frath.net/w/Danzig


Danzig-Holm was the female subcamp of the concentration camp Stutthof.


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## Habanolover (Feb 22, 2006)

icehog3 said:


> Not trying to fan the flames, but it didn't change my view on it one bit. :2


:tpd:


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## SeanGAR (Jul 9, 2004)

ActionAndy said:


> Everyone who "got" the joke and laughed at it knew they were being spoken to.


Joke?

I remember the news when this happened and the pictures of bloated bodies rotting in the sun. Hundreds of them. That funny?

Joke? You want a joke? What did Petar Brzica say to the rabbi, the serb and the gypsy in Jasenovac?

Yeah ... look it up.


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## poker (Dec 11, 1997)

icehog3 said:


> Not trying to fan the flames, but it didn't change my view on it one bit. :2


me neither. But like you said, I have nothing personal against Dion, just his warped dumas sense of dumas advertising.


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## ActionAndy (Jul 9, 2008)

SeanGAR said:


> Joke?
> 
> I remember the news when this happened and the pictures of bloated bodies rotting in the sun. Hundreds of them. That funny?
> 
> ...


...And cutting throats has exactly what to do with...Jim Jones...and marketing?


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## SR Mike (Feb 4, 2008)

Dion's explanation seems more like back peddling, apparently the photos of Jim Jones did have a negative affect towards people's views of him.


> If you choose to not smoke my cigar because of the way I wear my hair, my sideburns, the way I dress or, certain personality traits then, there is nothing I can do because I won't change a single thing to conform to someone else's beliefs or, a mass-marketed, led-by-the-hand way of life.


Hair or clothing styles are far different than following a mad man. Dion's justification for putting up the photo is poor at best, his decision was immature, and yet he gloats over it. He does not want people to follow the masses, the "hive-mentality" bothers him, but he wants people to buy his cigars. He wants to be a leader and have the best cigar out there. It appears he is the one mixing up the "kool-aid" and trying to find someone to drink it.


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## Habanolover (Feb 22, 2006)

ActionAndy said:


> ...And cutting throats has exactly what to do with...Jim Jones...and marketing?


I may be alittle off here but I think that they may relate because of..........................................hmmm *mass murder* maybe. I know I know, Jim Jones didn't murder all those people with his own hands but hey, neither did Charles Manson. Maybe they will have a Sharon Tate EL. I mean somewhere I am sure that somewhere there is a cigar smoker who agrees with what the "family' did that night so why not target them?


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## Mullet (Oct 22, 2007)

the Jim Jones marketing, to me, is a reflection of the immaturity of the person that came up with and approved the concept. 

It would certainly turn more people away than attract new people. 

It's a completely idiotic marketing ploy -- it seems desperate or "we'll do anything for $$$"

If the cigars tasted like Padron 1926s -- okay we'll smoke your cigars but hate your advertising. But they're fighting for the $7-$10 cigar market just like everybody else.


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## UPHOTO (May 21, 2008)

SR Mike said:


> Dion's explanation seems more like back peddling, apparently the photos of Jim Jones did have a negative affect towards people's views of him. Hair or clothing styles are far different than following a mad man. Dion's justification for putting up the photo is poor at best, his decision was immature, and yet he gloats over it. He does not want people to follow the masses, the "hive-mentality" bothers him, but he wants people to buy his cigars. He wants to be a leader and have the best cigar out there. It appears he is the one mixing up the "kool-aid" and trying to find someone to drink it.


Some of you have no idea what you are talking about.

I think you are really making a bigger deal over this then you should but that's what the internet is for!

He doesn't want to be a leader, he makes only a few hundred thousand cigars a year.

The cigars are sold out almost everywhere so if he did get some of you to never buy his cigars then the rest of us thank you. :ss


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## ActionAndy (Jul 9, 2008)

madurolover said:


> I may be alittle off here but I think that they may relate because of..........................................hmmm *mass murder* maybe. I know I know, Jim Jones didn't murder all those people with his own hands but hey, neither did Charles Manson. Maybe they will have a Sharon Tate EL. I mean somewhere I am sure that somewhere there is a cigar smoker who agrees with what the "family' did that night so *why not target them?*


I agree, why not? As long as that's your goal.

For the record I never claimed to support Jim Jones or Peter Bzwhatsit. I was trying to add something to a very heated discussion and point out that agree or disagree there is something to observe and learn here: about marketing, humor tactics, and cultural taboos.

Obviously some people find Jim Jones to be a taboo subject to be taken very severely.

Fine with me. Personally I am more offended that some of you gave your wives diamond rings than someone using the image of Jim Jones to make a point (regardless of what this point actually was).

Look guys, the majority of people here are exhibiting knee jerk reactions (both for and against). That's your right, but is it the way you want to live your life? I try to approach every situation as an opportunity to be educated about myself and about the world.


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## Mullet (Oct 22, 2007)

i disagree that his goal is to make "less money than our competitors."

He's not in business to be cute. He's in business to promote a product and hopefully sell it.

They can artificially keep supply low, in order to drive the price up -- which would be MY goal if i were coming out with something new.

The biggest problem you've got as a fledgling brand is becoming known as a _fad_. If you artificially lower your supply, increasing the price -- then you can stick around much longer as a "brand", thus increasing your credibility in the market.

So, again I don't agree with his marketing/advertising, and eventually they will realize that and switch to something else. It's a reflection of their ignorance/immaturity more than anything else.


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## BarneyBandMan (Mar 29, 2007)

Greg. Yes, I am a little taken aback by it, as well.

I understand his don't-just-blindly-follow-some-mass-marketing-hype, don't-drink-the-kool-aid-just-because-everyone-else-says-to, just-buy-my-cigar-instead-and-be-different kind of advertising or persona, but I think it could have been said and marketed in a way that creates goodwill and endears as many cigar smokers to his product as possible. Most cigar smokers I know are way too smart and street-wise to walk too far down his advertising trail.

Also, most of us just want a cigar that tastes good, goes well with a single-malt or port, and enhances good company. You don't have to be "edgy" to accomplish that.


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## NCRadioMan (Feb 28, 2005)

Costa said:


> Danzig-Holm was the female subcamp of the concentration camp Stutthof.


True, but he also has family from Danzig. His father was a decorated veteran of WWII and Korea. I was wong, it's actually in Poland also known as Gdansk. Here is a little more about Glenn Anzalone. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_Danzig

In case anybody skipped this:


NCRadioman said:


> I can understand his motivations and explaination. But like he says "those images represent choice". I hope I wouldn't be chastised for choosing not to buy them as I would not do that to those that do.
> 
> This never was about any kind of boycott. I was just asking if it rubbed others the wrong way like it did me. No more, no less. Like I said, I like the cigars. I've always said, smoke what you like and like what you smoke.
> 
> BTW, I like his cloths, hair and happnin' sideburns.


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## icehog3 (Feb 20, 2005)

UPHOTO said:


> Some of you have no idea what you are talking about.
> 
> I think you are really making a bigger deal over this then you should but that's what the internet is for!


How do we have no idea what we're talking about? 



ActionAndy said:


> Look guys, the majority of people here are exhibiting knee jerk reactions (both for and against). That's your right, but is it the way you want to live your life? I try to approach every situation as an opportunity to be educated about myself and about the world.


A knee jerk reaction is "an immediate unthinking emotional reaction produced by an event or statement to which the reacting person is highly sensitive."

I have had a couple days to think about this now, and my thoughts are exactly the same.


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## sonick (Jan 30, 2007)

icehog3 said:


> I have had a couple days to think about this now, and my thoughts are exactly the same.


Ditto.
Illusiones are good. I will smoke them.


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## icehog3 (Feb 20, 2005)

sonick said:


> Ditto.
> Illusiones are good. I will smoke them.


I absolutely respect your opinion.


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## SR Mike (Feb 4, 2008)

UPHOTO said:


> Some of you have no idea what you are talking about.
> 
> I think you are really making a bigger deal over this then you should but that's what the internet is for!
> 
> ...


I understand he only produces a small amount of cigars a year, you are not quite getting what I posted. Dion does want to be a leader, he produces a cigar that he believes is the best out there, he wants others to follow and believe they are the best too. That is why I posted it appears he is the one mixing the kool-aid.

If he wants to be edgy fine, but being edgy and disrespectful are two different things. As is hair and clothing style is different, but he put up a photo of a guy who had followers trust and then kill themselves, it did not just end lives but also ruined the lives of the family members who lost their loved ones.

If he wants to be edgy in the cigar business he could dress in goth, have a mohawk, wear a dress, or grow an 8 foot goatee.

With the use of the internet he has dug himself into a hole, am I being to rash over his use of Jim Jone's photo? I do not think so. If the photo does not bother you, cool, I respect that. PM me your address, I have one illusion in my humidor I will send.


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## Heliofire (Mar 16, 2007)

SR Mike said:


> I understand he only produces a small amount of cigars a year, you are not quite getting what I posted. Dion does want to be a leader, he produces a cigar that he believes is the best out there, he wants others to follow and believe they are the best too. That is why I posted it appears he is the one mixing the kool-aid.
> 
> If he wants to be edgy fine, but being edgy and disrespectful are two different things. As is hair and clothing style is different, but he put up a photo of a guy who had followers trust and then kill themselves, it did not just end lives but also ruined the lives of the family members who lost their loved ones.
> 
> ...


I know that your post was not aimed at me but I would PM you my address because I have never tried one of these cigars. But now that I know he is using Jonestown as marketing tool, I will never buy one of his cigars. So the only way I'll ever try one would be if it was free. Of course that means that someone else had to buy it which goes against why I will not buy it. Oh well I guess I won't be trying an Illusione.


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## tedrodgerscpa (Jun 22, 2006)

I applaud (nearly) everyone in this thread for the spirited debate.

However, at some point it will become the sort of debate people have about politics, religion, abortion, capital punishment, gun control, minimum wage, etc....

You come to the table with a set of beliefs, and that's what freedom is all about. You present your opinions/facts with great eloquence.

*HOWEVER,* you must realize that everyone sitting at the 'debate table' is highly likely to leave the table with the same set of opinions they came with.

The ad campaign doesn't bother me, I'm on the fence when it comes to capital punishment & I'm highly opposed to minimum wage. While the thread interests me, my opinion is not likely to change on this, or any of the afforementioned topics.

Many kudos to those who keep it civilized, and PM me if you wanna give your illusione stock away :tu


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## dwhitacre (Jan 2, 2008)

tedrodgerscpa said:


> Many kudos to those who keep it civilized, and PM me if you wanna give your illusione stock away :tu


Well played sir!!!!:tu


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## Poriggity (Dec 8, 2005)

SR Mike said:


> First off, Jim Jones is not a Reverend, it is a title that is reserved for the few individuals who deserve it. That scumbag is nothing more than an Anti-Christ.
> 
> Also, the Mayan calender is a revolving calender with a historical and fascinating history. The Mayan calender starts over, it is a cycle, who are the Mayans (who have their own Gods and Idols, which are different from all other religions) to know when the world will end?
> 
> ...


While I agree with all of this, Dion does make a fine product. After reading the interviews and comments from Dion, however, I am a little concerned... And it seems to me there is a wire loose somewhere, with all this talk about aliens, and alien gods and such in his interview with Doc... I don't smoke the cigars very often, but they are good when I do.
Scott


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## rrplasencia (May 25, 2008)

i recently bought a box of the ~hl~ and there good, really good but i'm not sure i'll be buying more after this. :2 and is that a pic of an americas most wanted poster on his profile?


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## skullnrose (Feb 18, 2007)

I don't agree with dion's choice of advertising in any way.I am however curious what the heck the names of his cigars mean. In this interview

http://www.stogiefresh.com/journal/C...ne_Cigars.html. he states

DOC: As of today, you have 10 different cigars in your lineup, with unusual names like "888," "4/2g" and "cg4." Can you give us a quick summary of your cigars and some insight on what the names mean?

DION: They all relate in some aspects to conspiracy and world domination via our outer-space savior. All of the information is out there; you just have to drill for it. [Doc notes: I have been "drilling" for this information since having this interview and so far, I have broken three drill bits!]

What I have come up with so far.

Illusione = Illusion

888 = 666 people and the 888 people. The 666 people live their lives without God, wholly according to adamic fallen human nature. In doing this, willingly or unwillingly, they are in Satan's grip. The 888 people are a total contrast. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They are wholly led by the Spirit and have entered the fullness of sonship. They have been redeemed from the earth.

CG-4 = star forming region called CG4. Cometary globules like this are relatively small clouds of gas and dust in the Milky Way. CG4 is about 1,300 light years from Earth; its head is about 1.5 light-years across, and its tail is about 8 light-years long. The head of the nebula is opaque, but it's illuminated by the light from the hot newly forming stars.

MK = I looked up the MK cigar on the illusione wep page and listed next to the size it says " The Teaching Machine " with a quick search of MK Teacher I came up with. "Some prospective teachers of missionary children will want to learn more about the individual we call a "teacher of missionary children," MK teacher for short."

HL(lancero) = The Holy Lance (also known as the Spear of Destiny, Holy Spear, Lance of Longinus, Spear of Longinus or Spear of Christ) is the name given to the lance that pierced Jesus while he was on the cross.

Thats all I had time to find for now If you come up with any others post em.


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## Gophernut (Jun 26, 2008)

I understand Dion's idea to be edgy, by not blindly following the leader. But to use a person like Jim Jones to try and get this message across is just disgusting in my opinion. (not a knee jerk one either) Why couldn't he use people in history who have done good things by not blindly following the leader? (MLK, Ghandi, among others) That would send the same message without the stigma of having a horrible historical figure as the face of your ad campaign.


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## tccigar (Aug 15, 2007)

I was interested in the Illusione myself until I read this.
This is absolutely sick. It makes me sick to see someone in this business doing something like this. I always wondered about the weird names on his cigars.


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## skullnrose (Feb 18, 2007)

found this on another board



Well here it is from Dion himself, he was replying to a post by another guy who had done some research and made some asuptions so Dion Cleared it up. To call Jesus an Illusion is just false. No one denies there was a man named Jesus who was born to Mary and Joseph, and who was crucified. I just don't understand why you would risk offending a large group of people, unless you were making a real stand against something. I guess he is.

Nice job! Here's the rundown -


M7
#7 Magda (Hebrew) Woman of Magdala

1
Dark Prince

2
The son of God

88
They Year I arrived in Reno, NV. A palendromic number. Fortune and good luck.

68
The year I was born.


4/2G
2004 birth of illusione. A 2-geared cigar. Mild to medium 1st half. Full and strong 2nd half.

CG:4
Corona gorda. 4 horsemen of the apocalypse. Represents Conquest, victory, false peace.

F9
Finesse. The ninth planet.

888
Greek neumerology called gematria. The name Jesus (IhsouV in Greek) adds up to 888.

23
The "23 Enigma" is the Discordian belief that all events are connected to the number 23

MK - Project MKULTRA - The "teaching Machine"

HL - Holy lance. The spear of desiny.


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## bazookajoe (Nov 2, 2006)

I don't understand why those who want to defend the guy are so worried about what everyone else thinks. You categorize those who don't get "the joke" or see the "edginess" as being out of touch or knee-jerkers. Sometimes jokes aren't funny or nice, and sometimes being edgy is just a cover for some peculiar beliefs or behavior. 

Dion (and his sycophants) seem to believe that anyone who doesn't get his ideas are just brainwashed by mainstream ideas about cigars. New cigar smokers might be influenced by conventional cigar advertising but most seasoned smokers judge a cigar by it's merit and are rarely influenced by advertising.

If you want to think that you're edgy or more open-minded because you "get" what this guy's doing and extoll his marketing genius, go ahead - you're entitled to your opinion. But those who find what he's doing distasteful and disrespectful to the memory of the people who suffered at the hands of Jim Jones are entitled to their opinions too, and aren't wrong just because you disagree with them. :2


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## SmokeyJoe (Oct 3, 2006)

bazookajoe said:


> I don't understand why those who want to defend the guy are so worried about what everyone else thinks. You categorize those who don't get "the joke" or see the "edginess" as being out of touch or knee-jerkers. Sometimes jokes aren't funny or nice, and sometimes being edgy is just a cover for some peculiar beliefs or behavior.
> 
> Dion (and his sycophants) seem to believe that anyone who doesn't get his ideas are just brainwashed by mainstream ideas about cigars. New cigar smokers might be influenced by conventional cigar advertising but most seasoned smokers judge a cigar by it's merit and are rarely influenced by advertising.
> 
> If you want to think that you're edgy or more open-minded because you "get" what this guy's doing and extoll his marketing genius, go ahead - you're entitled to your opinion. But those who find what he's doing distasteful and disrespectful to the memory of the people who suffered at the hands of Jim Jones are entitled to their opinions too, and aren't wrong just because you disagree with them. :2


Well said... thank you, Joe, for your sensible response to all of the discourse here. :tu


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## landhoney (May 17, 2008)

Gophernut said:


> Why couldn't he use people in history who have done good things by not blindly following the leader? (MLK, Ghandi, among others) That would send the same message without the stigma of having a horrible historical figure as the face of your ad campaign.


I'm not a big fan of the advertisement being discussed here(w/Jim Jones), but using MLK or Ghandi for a cigar ad would be VERY weird. And I imagine people would be upset by that as well. I understand your point, but those two would not be good choices IMO. :2


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## poker (Dec 11, 1997)

landhoney said:


> I'm not a big fan of the advertisement being discussed here(w/Jim Jones), but using MLK or Ghandi for a cigar ad would be VERY weird. And I imagine people would be upset by that as well. I understand your point, but those two would not be good choices IMO. :2


Then I say he use someone like Icehog for his ads since he's now running for president. :tu


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## pnoon (Jun 8, 2005)

poker said:


> Then I say he use someone like Icehog for his ads since he's now running for president. :tu


Let's not forget "Poon for all"


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## taltos (Feb 28, 2006)

pnoon said:


> Let's not forget "Poon for all"


I thought that this would be better for advertising chili or baked beans.:chk:chk


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## pnoon (Jun 8, 2005)

taltos said:


> I thought that this would be better for advertising chili or baked beans.:chk:chk


:r True that.


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## poker (Dec 11, 1997)

pnoon said:


> Let's not forget "Poon for all"


I figured "Poon for all" was a given if Tom gets elected:ss


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## rizzle (Mar 4, 2008)

I'm a big fan of poon.
:ss


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## Jbailey (Nov 9, 2006)

I read this whole thread and the first thing I have to say is 


ActionAndy said:


> The reality is Glenn Danzig's name isn't Danzig.


Really? I learn something new everyday.

Also thought this was one of the bes posts.


tedrodgerscpa said:


> I applaud (nearly) everyone in this thread for the spirited debate.
> 
> However, at some point it will become the sort of debate people have about politics, religion, abortion, capital punishment, gun control, minimum wage, etc....
> 
> ...


First off let me say that I have a very weird, dark and twisted sense of humor. I'm not turned off by Illusione cigars nor did it rub me the wrong way. There are some things that my friends and I will joke about with just each other.

I now know why I felt better after smoking the #2 "The son of God", why I felt like crap after smoking the #1 "Dark Prince", why I felt the need to poke everyone around me with the HL "Holy Lance" 

I'm sitting here thinking what was Dion trying to do with this photo? Stand out, be different, trying to be witty......maybe? We can all sit here and argue whether he is a very creative person or just bat $hit crazy. In the end it created a new discussion and not another mold or plume, cello or no cello.

Life isn't boring.:ss


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## Gophernut (Jun 26, 2008)

landhoney said:


> I'm not a big fan of the advertisement being discussed here(w/Jim Jones), but using MLK or Ghandi for a cigar ad would be VERY weird. And I imagine people would be upset by that as well. I understand your point, but those two would not be good choices IMO. :2


I certainly understand your point, I was merely trying to come up with some examples of people who didn't follow the leader who still could be considered a positive leader for change. I couldn't come up with an example off the top of my head. I guess that's kinda sad in it's own way...


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## vudu9 (Mar 7, 2005)

First off, let me say I'm sorry I didn't get over here sooner. Below is a post I put on annother forum. I didn't want to "contaminate" this forum with the link so, I'll just cut and paste. I'll follow up with a few more comments below. 


I understand completely the feelings certain people must have regarding the Reverend and his following. Many times, we here in the forums referred to “drinking the kool-aid” with regards to certain brands in our industry. It is somewhat confusing to me that we can refer by phrase (Drink the Kool-aid) to such a horrible incident – in jest and without repercussion yet, when an image is presented, it evokes a much different reaction. I do not subscribe to the manner in which he chose to deliver the word of God and, I certainly don’t advocate any sort of hive-mentality, mass murder. As many in this forum have seen the ad for what it is, they’ve gotten it right, I now, I’m the “flavor of the week.” "the Kool-Aid" – Good times. 

With regards to imagery and use of less than desirable humans, let’s take Fidel Castro. I find it ironic that, here is a man who had countless people murdered, broken hundreds, if not, thousands of families, and has locked up an equal amount of people only to throw away the key for the sake of the sovereignty of his country through Communism. Yet, with all of his atrocities, Americans still seek out Cuban cigars through illegal means and all the while, look past all of his atrocities to indulge in tobacco drenched in the blood of Cuban humanity, starvation and oppression. How can this be! His image has been plastered on clothing and in promotion. Che – killer of priests is all but pop culture on t-shirts now. Retro- Revolution hats have been made by cigar companies mimicking symbolism and, not a single word of protest. Where does the hypocrisy end? Where is the line of taste drawn? Is it before Howard Stern but after Rush Limbaugh? Maybe my next ad will be of me all sweaty and pale-skinned wearing a Guyabera shirt, standing in the middle of a tobacco field, holding a leaf and looking into the camera like a deer in the headlights. Maybe I’ll put on an Armani Tux and surround myself with a bunch of dumb bitches in sequenced gowns, drinking Dom because you know, this is what can happen to you if you smoke my cigar. You my friends, get it. You are not wooed by any of these shiny, jingly objects. You make your own choices, regardless of what is thrown in front of you or, what you read. I applaud you for that. I make no excuses (or apologies), I do not blame-shift and I do not point fingers. I’m accountable for my actions 100% and stand by them. 

The name illusione came about as to my interest in conspiracy - The Freemasons, the Triad Commission, the Rochildes, the Bilderbergs, etc. of which many are said to "pull the strings" so to speak. I for one do not believe that such an elaborate game can be played with such meticulious deviation and secrecy particularly, in the age of the internet and the free exchange of infromation. None the less, it comes down to individual choice and not following the masses no matter how great or tragic the consequences. Being in this business for almost 20 years, I've seen brands like mine come and go, awash in a fevorish hysteria, only to fade into past issues of Cigar Aficionado. Above all, it was a shot at myself and, a reminder of all other brands like mine that preceded me. 



Dion


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## icehog3 (Feb 20, 2005)

bazookajoe said:


> If you want to think that you're edgy or more open-minded because you "get" what this guy's doing and extoll his marketing genius, go ahead - you're entitled to your opinion. But those who find what he's doing distasteful and disrespectful to the memory of the people who suffered at the hands of Jim Jones are entitled to their opinions too, and aren't wrong just because you disagree with them. :2


Well said. 



poker said:


> Then I say he use someone like Icehog for his ads since he's now running for president. :tu


Not interested....Partagas has my exclusive endorsement rights.  :r


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## LkyLindy (Feb 1, 2008)

> the Rochildes, the Bilderbergs, etc. of which many are said to "pull the strings" so to speak


What exactly is Dion Talking about??-I assume his spelling is as loopy as his thoughts


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## SeanGAR (Jul 9, 2004)

LkyLindy said:


> What exactly is Dion Talking about??-I assume his spelling is as loopy as his thoughts


Dunno ... but I'm prepared ...


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## Aladdin Sane (Aug 25, 2006)

pnoon said:


> Let's not forget "Poon for all"


THAT line should be printed on money! :r


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## El Gato (Apr 2, 2003)

:2


Mr. Ed said:


> To echo some previous posts: How many of us have bought cigars that came from the unmentionable island and not complained?


Add this to Dion's post and you know how I feel on this matter.:2
Fidel Castro makes Jim Jones look like an amateur. Che introduced Soviet style concentration camps to Cuba. Yet most cigar smokers are willing to turn a blind eye for the taste of the "forbidden fruit".

My opinion is that Dion is making fun of most cigar smokers. He's having a hearty chuckle at the expense of every smoker who smuggles in a Cuban cigar or a box or three. Dion's smart, he knows people will buy his cigars if they think they're special and a little bit taboo. He's seen first hand the unbridled lust we Americans have for Cuban cigars. We don't let taste and politics get in our way. We want the best even if it comes from dictators and murderers. He _wants_ us to want his cigars because they're naughty.:2


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## vudu9 (Mar 7, 2005)

No ass-kissing or sucking-up. here


I want to thank everyone for your comments, both positive and negative. Again, I'd like to re-enforce my statement. I own it 100% There is NO back-peddling going on here. I know I'll lose a certain amount of fan base here but, that's the way it is. I'm not gonna sugar-coat anything. I'm not gonna change who I am or what I do as an American because that is what America is all about. The freedom to choose, the freedom to worship, the freedom to speak and the freedom to live. 


"There are those that do and, there are those who criticize that do.... Which one are you?" 

Dion


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## vudu9 (Mar 7, 2005)

No ass-kissing or sucking-up here - 


I want to thank everyone for your comments, both positive and negative. Again, I'd like to re-enforce my statement. I own it 100% There is NO back-peddling going on here. I know I'll lose a certain amount of fan base here but, that's the way it is. I'm not gonna sugar-coat anything. I'm not gonna change who I am or what I do as an American because that is what America is all about. The freedom to choose, the freedom to worship, the freedom to speak and the freedom to live. 



"There are those that do, and there are those who criticize that do.... Which one are you?" 


Dion


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## mtb996 (Apr 5, 2006)

Personally, I do not agree with the ad campaign at all, but I do respect your freedom of choice and your comments to state your position. 

Decent smokes as well.:tu


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## Kaisersozei (Feb 5, 2008)

El Gato said:


> My opinion is that Dion is making fun of most cigar smokers. He's having a hearty chuckle at the expense of every smoker who smuggles in a Cuban cigar or a box or three. Dion's smart, he knows people will buy his cigars if they think they're special and a little bit taboo. He's seen first hand the unbridled lust we Americans have for Cuban cigars. We don't let taste and politics get in our way. We want the best even if it comes from dictators and murderers. He _wants_ us to want his cigars because they're naughty.:2


I don't know if he's "making fun" per se, but I'd pretty much agree with you. Now that he's come on the board to explain his creative thought process (thanks, Dion :tu) it makes a helluva lot of sense to me. Satisfied my curiousity more than anything--as I stated earlier, I'm not easily offended or impressed, so the campaign won't get me to buy (or not buy) cigars. I buy them based on the quality of the _product_, which I consider excellent.


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## sonick (Jan 30, 2007)

poker said:


> Then I say he use someone like Icehog for his ads since he's now running for president. :tu


gots my vote!


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## SeanGAR (Jul 9, 2004)

El Gato said:


> He _wants_ us to want his cigars because they're naughty.:2


I smoke cigars I like because of their taste, not because somebody wants me to like them. Not because of where they come from, although I am partial to Nicaraguan tobacco. I buy a lot of La Fincas, Placensias, and Joya de Nicaragua. Naughty? No .. tasty. I can't remember seeing an AD for these. I haven't had an Illusione, but I do like the bands simplicity and hear they are nice smokes.

In fact, I don't look at cigar ADs. I don't look at retailer magazines sent in the mail, I toss them in the garbage without even opening them (I got 3 yesterday) ... what are they going to say .... these cigars are the best thing since sliced bread? Those ones are too. These are fantastic .. those are awesome. Well, I know what they will say already .. why waste my time on drivel? I get way better information on what new cigars taste great right here than any magazine copy or reviews.

I think the AD was sad* in my opinion*, but since I don't really give a crap about advertising, it won't change my opinion on whether or not I will try one if I see them in my local. If I see them I'll buy some to try. If I like them I'll buy a box. I don't buy singles online and don't usually buy 5ers without trying a single before .. so it took me forever to try Olivia Vs. Never saw an AD for them ... saw people here drooling. That is how it goes.

If Dion makes a good cigar that people like and sells it for a good price, people will buy them, including me. But dodgy ADs don't add anything for the brand, *in my opinion*. There are a lot of ways he can market and capture the different spirit of his cigars without offending people. Heck, he could have a contest for best new AD and give out cigars. Anything is better than visions of a suicide cult madman .... *in my opinion*.

In any case, it is very nice to see Dion come here to explain himself.


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## Darrell (Aug 12, 2007)

vudu9 said:


> No ass-kissing or sucking-up here -
> 
> I want to thank everyone for your comments, both positive and negative. Again, I'd like to re-enforce my statement. I own it 100% There is NO back-peddling going on here. I know I'll lose a certain amount of fan base here but, that's the way it is. I'm not gonna sugar-coat anything. I'm not gonna change who I am or what I do as an American because that is what America is all about. The freedom to choose, the freedom to worship, the freedom to speak and the freedom to live.
> 
> ...


It takes a man to stand up for what he does and says, I respect that. I will see you at our Illusione event in a few months, Dion.

Darrell
West Coast Cigars, San Jose CA.


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## icehog3 (Feb 20, 2005)

The apples and oranges I see here are relative to the ad campaign...I don't see any of the Cuban cigar companies using the atrocities commited by Castro or Che to promote their cigars. I see there is a "tongue in cheek" component to Dion's ad, I just don't happen to like it, but as Sean has stated, that is *my opinion *, which really means nothing to anyone but me.

But to imply that I should feel strange about buying Cuban cigars since atrocities were committed in Cuba....well, the Contras, for instance, once committed atrocities in Nicaragua...shouldn't I feel funny about buying cigars from there?


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## BigKev77 (Feb 16, 2008)

This is what I said in another forum.

Would you want to buy Columbine Kiddie Killers, VA Tech slaughterhouse stogies, or Pediphile Pantellas. Where do we draw the line? 

I am a new cigar smoke and I have been looking forward to trying as many new sticks as I can. After this ad Illusion will not be one of them. 

Freedom of speech is a great thing but why use it if desrespects the families of 900+ people. If you lost a your mother because of him, how would you feel thumbing through a cigar publication and seeing his face used to sell a product. 


Kevin


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## poker (Dec 11, 1997)

meh.


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## BarneyBandMan (Mar 29, 2007)

vudu9 said:


> Maybe I'll put on an Armani Tux and surround myself with a bunch of dumb bitches in sequenced gowns, drinking Dom because you know, this is what can happen to you if you smoke my cigar. You my friends, get it. You are not wooed by any of these shiny, jingly objects. You make your own choices, regardless of what is thrown in front of you or, what you read. I applaud you for that.


In my opinion, how many times have I heard this line from car dealers, lawn mower salesmen, etc? I'm confused. Should I buy an Illusione so I can be different or head to the Mac store like all the other freshmen?


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## ActionAndy (Jul 9, 2008)

BarneyBandMan said:


> In my opinion, how many times have I heard this line from car dealers, lawn mower salesmen, etc? I'm confused. Should I buy an Illusione so I can be different or head to the Mac store like all the other freshmen?


WTF? Man are you serious? He didn't tell you to buy ANYTHING he told you that he respects you (the reader) for making your own decision no matter what it is.

I mean, you do make your own choices, right? So what can you possibly be disagreeing with in the passage you quoted? Some people just want to f%^&ing argue.


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## ResIpsa (Mar 8, 2006)

SeanGAR said:


> Marketing is designed to entice people to try a product. You see that here?


:tpd: Bingo. The purpose of marketing is not simply to draw attention to your product, but to entice people to buy it. Don't seem how connecting yourself with mass murder does that.


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## tedrodgerscpa (Jun 22, 2006)

BarneyBandMan said:


> *In my opinion,* how many times have I heard this line from car dealers, lawn mower salesmen, etc? I'm confused. Should I buy an Illusione so I can be different or head to the Mac store like all the other freshmen?


*EMPHASIS* added by me to the above post.



ActionAndy said:


> WTF? Man are you serious? He didn't tell you to buy ANYTHING he told you that he respects you (the reader) for making your own decision no matter what it is.
> 
> I mean, you do make your own choices, right? So what can you possibly be disagreeing with in the passage you quoted? Some people just want to f%^&ing argue.


I don't agree with some of the posts in this thread, but I'll have to take the (attributed to) Voltaire quote: I may not agree with what you say, but I defend to the death your right to say it.

In my opinion, olives taste horrible. Like burnt rubber.

I don't want to "f%^&ing argue" over it. I think olives taste horrible.


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## SmokeyJoe (Oct 3, 2006)

ActionAndy said:


> WTF? Man are you serious? He didn't tell you to buy ANYTHING he told you that he respects you (the reader) for making your own decision no matter what it is.
> 
> I mean, you do make your own choices, right? So what can you possibly be disagreeing with in the passage you quoted? Some people just want to f%^&ing argue.


Because he doesn't agree with you - he's argumentative? 

Barney is rightfully pointing out that it is ALL advertising... two approaches that are used all the time. Either smoke-drink-eat-use this because you want to be like everyone else, or smoke-drink-eat-use this because you can dare to be different. Either way, any business owner that advertises is trying to manipulate the buying public to use their product - Advertising 101.

I don't blame the guy for advertising...I'm all for it - I just don't care for his campaign. He put out his advertising in an effort to promote a response. Fine! But you can't advertise and then say in effect "I don't care if you want my product or not" - if that were true, you wouldn't advertise. My :2 .


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## rrplasencia (May 25, 2008)

tedrodgerscpa said:


> Voltaire quote: I may not agree with what you say, but I defend to the death your right to say it.
> 
> In my opinion, olives taste horrible.


The quote is a good explination of military service at times. And WTF he's right olives do taste horrible? Who thought tapenade was a good idea?


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## ActionAndy (Jul 9, 2008)

SmokeyJoe said:


> Because he doesn't agree with you - he's argumentative?
> 
> Barney is rightfully pointing out that it is ALL advertising... two approaches that are used all the time. Either smoke-drink-eat-use this because you want to be like everyone else, or smoke-drink-eat-use this because you can dare to be different. Either way, any business owner that advertises is trying to manipulate the buying public to use their product - Advertising 101.
> 
> I don't blame the guy for advertising...I'm all for it - I just don't care for his campaign. He put out his advertising in an effort to promote a response. Fine! But you can't advertise and then say in effect "I don't care if you want my product or not" - if that were true, you wouldn't advertise. My :2 .


No, IN MY OPINION*, he's being argumentative by:

1) Bringing up a point that, like you said, can and will be present in ANY form of advertising _as a criticism on this specific advertisement_. If you don't see how this is faulty rhetoric then I really don't know what else to do.

2) Completely misinterpreting the statement. My point was that the passage he quoted simply acknowledges the customer's right to choose and applauds him (or her) for utilizing it like a responsible consumer. Which is exactly what this thread is about--your wallet, your choice.

*By stating that this is my opinion, I have made it a Sacred Cow argument. Please also note that olives are gross at any time.


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## Asher (Feb 4, 2008)

BarneyBandMan said:


> vudu9 said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe I'll put on an Armani Tux and surround myself with a bunch of dumb bitches in sequenced gowns, drinking Dom because you know, this is what can happen to you if you smoke my cigar. You my friends, get it. You are not wooed by any of these shiny, jingly objects. You make your own choices, regardless of what is thrown in front of you or, what you read. I applaud you for that.
> ...


In this case, Dion might be referring to a particular cigar company that sends their Director of Lifestyle Marketing out to red carpet events in order to associate their cigars with a glamorous lifestyle.


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## yourchoice (Jun 25, 2006)

ActionAndy said:


> Which is exactly what this thread is about....your choice.


In that case, I like olives, and I don't care what all of you olive haters have to say about it :c


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## Beer Doctor (Jul 31, 2007)

yourchoice said:


> In that case, I like olives, and I don't care what all of you olive haters have to say about it :c


I like olives too:tu


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## rizzle (Mar 4, 2008)

tedrodgerscpa said:


> In my opinion, olives taste horrible. Like burnt rubber.
> 
> I don't want to "f%^&ing argue" over it. I think olives taste horrible.


You'll get no argument from me. Olives taste like :BS.


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## Darrell (Aug 12, 2007)

rizzle said:


> You'll get no argument from me. Olives taste like :BS.


Olives are rank as hell. :r


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## foureyedgeek (Jul 25, 2008)

While I have nothing to add to the original topic, I'll state the I do like black olives on pizza but not on their own, and like green olives on their own but not on pizza...


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## rizzle (Mar 4, 2008)

foureyedgeek said:


> While I have nothing to add to the original topic, I'll state the I do like black olives on pizza but not on their own, and like green olives on their own but not on pizza...


 But you are a 4 eyed geek. And if you'll remember, we aren't arguing anymore. Olives are bad. Bad...bad...bad.
:r


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## Studebaker (Jan 29, 2007)

I love olives and I don't 'preciate everybody in this thread being so judgmental and argumentative and and insulting them. Dion should use Olive Oyl in his next campaign. That would show all ye naysayers!


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## tedrodgerscpa (Jun 22, 2006)

ActionAndy, maybe we got off on the wrong foot.



ActionAndy said:


> WTF? Man are you serious? He didn't tell you to buy ANYTHING he told you that he respects you (the reader) for making your own decision no matter what it is.
> 
> I mean, you do make your own choices, right? So what can you possibly be disagreeing with in the passage you quoted? Some people just want to f%^&ing argue.


I have no problem with your (or I should say, my perceived) point in this post. Dion is granting the consumer the power to choose. I get that 100%. Money talks, :BS walks... Don't be distracted by shiny objects, and for goodness sakes, don't drink the Kool-Aid.

It's the "WTF" and "Some people just want to f%^&ing argue" that I dont' think is the message you should be presenting in a debate.

That was why I posted about olives.

Compare and contrast the two arguments...

1. In my opinion, olives are nasty.

2. WTF? Why would anyone eat olives? If you try to defend olives as good food, you "just want to f%^&ing argue"

Both arguments express my distaste for olives. The first can contribute to a debate (although not fact driven, it is anecdotal evidence of someone who doesn't care for olives). The second will only piss someone off.



ActionAndy said:


> No, IN MY OPINION*, he's being argumentative by:
> 
> 1) Bringing up a point that, like you said, can and will be present in ANY form of advertising _as a criticism on this specific advertisement_. If you don't see how this is faulty rhetoric then I really don't know what else to do.
> 
> ...


By stating that something is your opinion, you have *not* made it a Sacred Cow. You have simply expressed your position on the matter.

Let me try this with a different approach, hold the olives.

In my opinion, minimum wage hurts the very people it intends to help.

My position on minimum wage is *not* a sacred cow. It's debatable. That's one of the joys of a discussion forum. People trading knowledge and discussing things.

Trying to defend minimum wage means that you "just want to f%^&ing argue"

The above position on minimum wage does nothing for either side of the debate, and contributes virtually nothing to the argument.

I hope that you continue to contribute to the boards, adding knowledge where you can and providing your opinion where people are asking for it (which, if you look at the OP, that's *EXACTLY* what this thread is all about).

If your response to people's opinion is toned with "WTF"'s and ""Some people just want to f%^&ing argue", I'm afraid that you'll be perceived as someone who just wants to fan the flames.


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## SmokeyJoe (Oct 3, 2006)

ActionAndy said:


> ...
> 1) Bringing up a point that, like you said, can and will be present in ANY form of advertising _as a criticism on this specific advertisement_. If you don't see how this is faulty rhetoric then I really don't know what else to do...


My cigar-smoking brother... you missed his point AND mine. Barney's post highlighted the irony of Dion's eschewing the glitz type of advertising for its obvious manipulation, while employing the equally effective counter-culture approach to manipulating the consumer. Same coin, different side. Barney's tongue-in-cheek comment simply highlighted that truth.

That is why I don't believe your mildly pedantic comment about his "faulty rhetoric" is accurate.

At any rate... believe what you wish... I will avail myself of the same right... and I intend to refrain from any other comments in this thread.

Enjoy what you smoke. Think I will go have a cigar myself.


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## ActionAndy (Jul 9, 2008)

SmokeyJoe said:


> My cigar-smoking brother... you missed his point AND mine. Barney's post highlighted the irony of Dion's eschewing the glitz type of advertising for its obvious manipulation, while employing the equally effective counter-culture approach to manipulating the consumer. Same coin, different side. Barney's tongue-in-cheek comment simply highlighted that truth.
> 
> That is why I don't believe your mildly pedantic comment about his "faulty rhetoric" is accurate.
> 
> ...


Given out too much RG in the past 24 hours but I tried to green you because it was well said.

My point was not that everyone should be keeping their opinions to themselves but I wanted to say that I thought some people were arguing or slamming the ad simply for the sake of doing it. And I see your point about the double-sided coin.


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## tedrodgerscpa (Jun 22, 2006)

Kumbaya!


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## BarneyBandMan (Mar 29, 2007)

ActionAndy said:


> WTF? Man are you serious? He didn't tell you to buy ANYTHING he told you that he respects you (the reader) for making your own decision no matter what it is.
> 
> I mean, you do make your own choices, right? So what can you possibly be disagreeing with in the passage you quoted? Some people just want to f%^&ing argue.


Sorry to sound argumentative. The intention was to express my opinion that the quote sounded like so many Mac ads that try to make make people who want to look and feel "different" buy their "different" product so they can all be different together, which to me is nothing more than classic advertising used for years by many companies geared toward selling a product. I've just seen it too much to not recognize it. I'm sorry if my take offended you, Andy.


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## ActionAndy (Jul 9, 2008)

BarneyBandMan said:


> Sorry to sound argumentative. The intention was to express my opinion that the quote sounded like so many Mac ads that try to make make people who want to look and feel "different" buy their "different" product so they can all be different together, which to me is nothing more than classic advertising used for years by many companies geared toward selling a product. I've just seen it too much to not recognize it. I'm sorry if my take offended you, Andy.


It escalated pretty quickly, my apologies. I'm also sorry that I swore about it (albeit in censored net cursing).


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## Vorb (Dec 10, 2007)

I hate olives.

I try to buy up as many as I can, and then DROWN them in
either a vodka/vermouth or gin/vermouth death !

I'm here to save humanity from olives.


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## tzaddi (Feb 24, 2007)

Last night while reviewing the momentous Obama speech on the DVR i noted something that normally would have just slipped by if not for this thread and Dion.

As the event concluded and the commentators took "stage" my ears/mind perked up when Anderson Cooper made reference to "Drinking the Kool-Aid" as he "passed off" to David Gergen. To my surprise David Gergen responded with another reference to "Drinking the Kool-Aid".

My point, as i attempt to communicate it here, for me has little to do with party politics, CNN or the commentators.

At that moment the use of that phrase and it's variations spoke to me about our use of language, it's power and the potential irony when we fail to grasp the power of the "word".

Although I am not fully aware of Dion's intent when he invoked the icon he has offered glimpses into his reasoning behind it, which I accept at face value.

Our language and the choices we make when wielding it, right down to the very words and images we select is the very power that can heal or hurt.

For what I have gleaned from this experience I am grateful. 


"Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος,…"


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## bazookajoe (Nov 2, 2006)

tzaddi said:


> ...Our language and the choices we make when wielding it, right down to the very words and images we select is the very power that can heal or hurt.


Very nice insight Richard.



tzaddi said:


> "Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος,&#8230;"


:tu


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## Beagle Boy (Jul 26, 2006)

Vorb said:


> I hate olives.
> 
> I try to buy up as many as I can, and then DROWN them in
> either a vodka/vermouth or gin/vermouth death !
> ...


(in my best Forest Gump voice) Anyway, like I was sayin', olive is the fruit of the tree. Dey's uh, garlic stuffed, anchovy stuffed, jalepeno stuffed. Cracked, cured, pitted. There's Manzanillo, Frantoio, Leccino, Arbequina, Kalamata, Koroneiki, Empeltre, Lucques, Nabali, Mission. That- that's about it.


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## SR Mike (Feb 4, 2008)

Dion, this quote you added is interesting


> "There are those that do and, there are those who criticize that do.... Which one are you?"


Am I a doer if I criticize and not buy your cigar? Or am I just a doer because I am acting upon my disgust for your ad and not buying your cigar, even though I have criticized? Or am I not a doer because I am not buying into your explanation for your ad?

One more thing, Jim Jones is not a Reverend, by calling him such is being disrespectful to those that deserve that title. It is good you can own up to your ad, but that does not increase the respect meter to any degree in my mind.


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## BarneyBandMan (Mar 29, 2007)

tzaddi said:


> Our language and the choices we make when wielding it, right down to the very words and images we select is the very power that can heal or hurt.
> 
> "Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος,&#8230;"


Well said...from the beginning


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## andrewhac (Mar 6, 2006)

Illusione are just plain too expensive for an every day smoke. I have not tried one yet and probably won't until the price comes down to a sane, affordable, reasonable amount: $4.00 / each.

Until then, happy smoking LHO from Holts... :bl


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## Studebaker (Jan 29, 2007)

tzaddi said:


> "Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος,&#8230;"


OK, I'm ignorant. Care to translate for the unwashed?


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## SmokeyJoe (Oct 3, 2006)

Studebaker said:


> OK, I'm ignorant. Care to translate for the unwashed?


In the beginning was the Word... :tu


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## Studebaker (Jan 29, 2007)

SmokeyJoe said:


> In the beginning was the Word... :tu


Ah! very cool, thanks Joe!


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## brigey (Dec 17, 2006)

UPHOTO said:


> I just talked to him about this a few weeks ago.....
> 
> Some people are going to get it and others won't. His feelings on it is that he wants to be different, looking for that edgier crowd that can laugh at something like his add.
> 
> ...


*I understand, but... IMHO it is in poor taste. Some good and easily influenced people lost their life to this kind of thinking and I don't appreciate the association with a mass murderer, no matter what Dion's poor taste is. *


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## UPHOTO (May 21, 2008)

What I find very funny and ironic is how many religious people are bothered by this image YET christians go around with crosses and a dead jesus wrapped around there necks or hanging on their walls.

Image of something that was a horrible event (if you are a christian) yet that image is just fine to plaster everywhere.

Irony is the spice of life!


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## ResIpsa (Mar 8, 2006)

UPHOTO said:


> What I find very funny and ironic is how many religious people are bothered by this image YET christians go around with crosses and a dead jesus wrapped around there necks or hanging on their walls.
> 
> Image of something that was a horrible event (if you are a christian) yet that image is just fine to plaster everywhere.
> 
> Irony is the spice of life!


The underlying theme here is the ads offend some people. If Dion doesn't mind losing potential customers, by all means carry on and be as "edgy" as he thinks he can be.

What some people in marketing (politics, etc) lose sight of sometimes is you don't have to preach to the faithful. The faithful you already have in your corner. You don't have to preach to the haters, 'cause they ain't buying anyway.

You have to preach to the people on the fence. And if you offend those on the fence........


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## vudu9 (Mar 7, 2005)

tzaddi said:


> Last night while reviewing the momentous Obama speech on the DVR i noted something that normally would have just slipped by if not for this thread and Dion.
> 
> As the event concluded and the commentators took "stage" my ears/mind perked up when *Anderson Cooper *made reference to *"Drinking the Kool-Aid" as he "*passed off" to David Gergen. To my surprise David Gergen responded with another reference to "Drinking the Kool-Aid".
> 
> ...


Again, I'll say it. It's ironic how commentators such as *Cooper, O'riley,* *Hannity *and a slew of bloggers, can refer to an incident by phrase, by comparison with no reaction but, when an image is presented, it evokes a much different response. Thanks for pointing that out tzaddi. 
In such countrys as China, Cuba and the Middle East that even the hushed utterance of such words amongst "comrads" could have you locked up and the key thrown away - or even worse. Thanks to all here for comments both for and against, even though it's at my expense this time! :tu


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## Cigarsmoka77 (Jul 28, 2007)

This thread is nuts. 

I like to see a thread with this many pages!!


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## bazookajoe (Nov 2, 2006)

vudu9 said:


> Again, I'll say it. It's ironic how commentators such as *Cooper, O'riley,* *Hannity *and a slew of bloggers, can refer to an incident by phrase, by comparison with no reaction but, when an image is presented, it evokes a much different response. Thanks for pointing that out tzaddi.
> In such countrys as China, Cuba and the Middle East that even the hushed utterance of such words amongst "comrads" could have you locked up and the key thrown away - or even worse. Thanks to all here for comments both for and against, even though it's at my expense this time! :tu


I think the difference is that when spoken verbally, it seems more of a euphemism and most people don't even think about the origin of the expression. It's that way with many phrases we use. The visual image however conjures up thoughts and memories which for many are unpleasant. It's clear from your explanation that you're using the image as a metaphor and not to show regard for the madman, but you also know that some people will find it offensive. That doesn't mean you don't have the right to do it because of course you do, but you shouldn't act surprised that it provokes some vitriol compared to when someone off-handedly utters the kool-aid phrase. They're simply not the same thing. :2


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## BagfullofPings (Jan 10, 2007)

"And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain."

Who said this?

I have not read the entire thread. However, I understand the marketing ploy.


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## BagfullofPings (Jan 10, 2007)

Any answers???


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## poker (Dec 11, 1997)

Deuteronomy 2:34


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## BillyCigars (Nov 17, 2007)

BagfullofPings said:


> Any answers???


King David when he was on the lam?


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## BagfullofPings (Jan 10, 2007)

poker said:


> Deuteronomy 2:34


Very nice my friend!!

Everybody can bitch about the Jones reference, but nobody cares about what God demanded. Oh, that is the word of God. Regardless, Men, women, and children were killed. What is the F(#(ing difference!!! Think about that when you tote your Bible to church this weekend!!!!!!

Jason


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## tzaddi (Feb 24, 2007)

Studebaker said:


> OK, I'm ignorant. Care to translate for the unwashed?





SmokeyJoe said:


> In the beginning was the Word... :tu


Joe, thanks for stepping in for me, I was attending the local weekly herf here in Redding. :ss

Studebaker, I apologize for the mystery, but I have to admit I enjoy such things . The intention was to convey my current understanding of the power the "words" we form inside our head and then utter.

The phrase I am referring to was originally written by John the Apostle in Greek and I thought it would provide deeper meaning using it in it's original form utilizing the term "Logos".

The complete phrase translated into english has provided me with many hours of tangential thought and research, I'm easily distracted 

Like a riddle it reads&#8230;

"In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God"

To me this describes the seminal aspect of creation. :tu


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## rizzle (Mar 4, 2008)

Man, y'all are getting deep in here.


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## Gophernut (Jun 26, 2008)

UPHOTO said:


> What I find very funny and ironic is how many religious people are bothered by this image YET christians go around with crosses and a dead jesus wrapped around there necks or hanging on their walls.
> 
> Image of something that was a horrible event (if you are a christian) yet that image is just fine to plaster everywhere.
> 
> Irony is the spice of life!


That image is representative of Christ dying for our sins. (if that's what you believe) If you attend Easter service, it's not a funeral, but a celebration of that event. That image is a positive thing in my world. Jim Jones' picture doesn't do a thing for me in a positive way.


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## Studebaker (Jan 29, 2007)

tzaddi said:


> Joe, thanks for stepping in for me, I was attending the local weekly herf here in Redding. :ss
> 
> Studebaker, I apologize for the mystery, but I have to admit I enjoy such things . The intention was to convey my current understanding of the power the "words" we form inside our head and then utter.
> 
> ...


No apology necessary! I love words and I love the Word.

I don't know if this is accurate, but I've read that the exclamation "Word!" has its roots in Word = God = Truth. Makes sense to me.


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## SR Mike (Feb 4, 2008)

BagfullofPings said:


> Very nice my friend!!
> 
> Everybody can bitch about the Jones reference, but nobody cares about what God demanded. Oh, that is the word of God. Regardless, Men, women, and children were killed. What is the F(#(ing difference!!! Think about that when you tote your Bible to church this weekend!!!!!!
> 
> Jason


Jason, take a deep breathe man. Aside from what is written in the Old Testament, Jim Jones had his followers kill themselves. Looking at the Old testament, God did not tell Moses, Adam, Enoch, and his other prophets to kill themselves and His followers. In the New Testament, Christ did not kill anyone, nor had God commanded his prophets to kill anyone after He sent His Son. Christ was sent to fulfill the law's of God, remember "thou shall not kill"? The Law's of Moses were put to an end when Christ was sacrificed. Using God as an excuse to kill as they did during the Crusades does not justify their actions, as Jim Jones cannot justify the slaughter of so many by stating it was God's will that they should die.


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## vudu9 (Mar 7, 2005)

SeanGAR said:


> Dunno ... but I'm prepared ...


Ah yes, THAT article -

Back when I played in punk rock bands, when ever we got interviewed, we always got asked the same questions - "how long have you...what's your next album....where do you see your self in the future..." Instead of answering the same questions the same way time and time again, we'd throw a bunch of tongue-in-cheek answers at the interviewer. This whole interview was pretty much tongue-in-cheek right down to the photos. I thought it would be much more interesting to throw in some curve-balls rather than say the same thing everybody else says when asked those questions. It's really funny how much people _think_ they know about you after just reading one article! It would be like thinking Johny Depp runs around in a pirate suit and talks like Keith Richards all the time. Remember it's an "illusione."


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## Snake Hips (May 30, 2008)

SR Mike said:


> Jason, take a deep breathe man. Aside from what is written in the Old Testament, Jim Jones had his followers kill themselves. Looking at the Old testament, God did not tell Moses, Adam, Enoch, and his other prophets to kill themselves and His followers. In the New Testament, Christ did not kill anyone, nor had God commanded his prophets to kill anyone after He sent His Son. Christ was sent to fulfill the law's of God, remember "thou shall not kill"? The Law's of Moses were put to an end when Christ was sacrificed. Using God as an excuse to kill as they did during the Crusades does not justify their actions, as Jim Jones cannot justify the slaughter of so many by stating it was God's will that they should die.


Good point. However, I would make the point that Jesus said _not_ to disregard the laws of Moses (being that he was a devout Jew), but that's not the point of this thread and I don't feel like getting into a religio-philosophical debate :hn

Back to business, I think the advertisement is a crude metaphor and simply a shock-ploy to get people to take a look at the cigar brand, but I have to say it was at least clever. Though I disagree with the premise of the ad, I give Dion credit for the...interesting...allusion.


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## gamayrouge (Dec 21, 2007)

Baaaalllllllllin'


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## gamayrouge (Dec 21, 2007)

Holla if you hear me. :r:r:r:r:r:r


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## gamayrouge (Dec 21, 2007)

make it rain son!!!...hijacked son
-mikey burr


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