# How different are PG solutions?



## iRabb (Jan 24, 2015)

Hi, name's Ben and I am new to this forum.

I came looking for the answer to a question: are there real differences between brands of PG solutions? For example, one well-known brand's website warns:
For the humidification system to work properly, use *****® brand PG Solution. Other solutions will damage your humidifier.

It goes on to say:
*****'s Propylene Glycol (PG Solution) maintains 70% RH. Distilled water evaporates quickly and creates humidification fluctuations. XIKAR's proprietary mix of PG Solution is calculated to match the water absorption rate with the rate at which PG biodegrades, resulting in a humidor that will not over saturate with PG. Always maintain 70% RH for the best results. Competitive mixtures of PG Solution often contain an incorrect mix resulting in a clogged humidifier. 

One would not think a 50/50 mix with water would produce solutions with such different properties, but I'm no chemist. So that's my question: do you think it is important to use the same brand of solution that your product recommends? (In other words, their own!)

Thanks,

Ben


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## purepoker (Sep 15, 2011)

I recommend not using at all. Switch to boveda.


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## Shemp75 (May 26, 2012)

Propylene Glycol (PG Solution) is crap. DO NOT USE IT!

its known to cause mold and highly over RH your smokes. 

only use Distilled water in what ever RH media you are going with.


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## MDSPHOTO (Sep 10, 2013)

Most retailers recommend PG solutions to new smokers since they don't know any better. If you were planning to use it on the foam humidifier that came with your humidor throw that thing away. As mentioned try Boveda packs or a product called Heartfelt beads and only use distiller water for humidification.


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## six10 (May 23, 2013)

I would definitely recommend Boveda too. If you do end up using PG I have had good luck with the Xikar brand.


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## CamoSutra (Dec 20, 2014)

I'm going to recommend Boveda packs or humidity beads too, and I'll explain why; but I'm also going to answer your original question, because you probably want to start out slowly without investing a lot of money up front.

Xikar's marketing hype is _mostly_ just that -- marketing hype. Assuming it's a precise 50/50 mixture made with fresh PG and distilled water, there should be absolutely no difference between brands. Xikar can attest to the quality of its product, but not other companies'. Back in the day, I used to buy my own PG (a friendly pharmacist can order it for you) and DW, and mixed my own juice. I also made my own humidifiers, buying "wet" (dark green, open-cell) florist's oasis at a crafts store and cutting to fit whatever containers I could find. (The paler green "dry" closed-cell foam is intended for artificial flower arrangements, and does _not_ absorb water.)

With foam-and-PG humidifiers it's important to check them frequently for mold or discoloration, add distilled water as necessary, and replace them _before_ you encounter problems. I built mine using dishwasher-safe containers with holes punched or drilled into their tops; every six months or so I'd open them up, toss out the florist's foam and run the containers through a dishwasher cycle, then refill with fresh foam and 50/50 mix.

But this type of humidification device is one-way. It can release moisture into the atmosphere inside your humidor, but it cannot absorb excess moisture. It works because you replace moist air with fresh, lower-humidity air every time you open the humidor, so keeping the RH _high enough_ is the usual problem. But you have to replace this lost moisture by recharging the humidifier with more distilled water; if you use the 50/50 mixture instead, over time the amount of PG will be 'way out of proportion and this will affect the humidifier's ability to regulate RH at 70 percent. (That's another reason I replaced the foam periodically.) The major advantage is that these devices are very inexpensive.

Electronic humidifiers such as the Cigar Oasis devices are also one-way devices, but they include an electronic hygrometer that determines when more humidification is needed. There are small versions designed for home use, and much larger ones intended for display humidors and walk-ins where lots of moisture escapes every time someone opens them.

And there are jars and other containers that are filled with some sort of crystals that swell and soften into a gel when water is added. These are also one-way devices as far as I can tell; they give off moisture until they dry out and the gel shrinks and hardens again.

Boveda packs and humidity beads are newer technology and provide two-way humidity control; that is, they can also absorb excess moisture in the air to keep the RH at whatever they're rated for. While a one-way foam humidifier using PG/DW can bring the moisture level inside a humidor up to 70 percent, it can't do much to lower the humidity if it's too high -- you can always leave the lid open, of course, but that's not exactly my idea of precise RH control. For that matter, if the PG/DW balance becomes anything other than 50/50, how will you know exactly what RH the humidifier is trying to maintain? Boveda packs and humidity beads are designed to maintain a precise RH level (that doesn't necessarily have to be 70 percent, btw) by releasing moisture when the surrounding air is too dry and absorbing moisture when the air is too humid.

You'll also read about people who use certain brands of kitty litter that contain some sort of crystals. I _think_ the crystals are similar to the mineral salts in Boveda packs and humidity beads. Maybe someone who has experience with using kitty litter can say something about them. The same crystals, or at least something that looks similar, can be found in "water pillows" that some online merchants pack with cigar shipments; I keep a few pillows on hand (sealed in a ziplock bag) to use with temporary "cigar overflow" and mailing cigar bombs, but I don't trust them for long-term storage.

Because you're new to the cigar hobby, you probably have just one or two small humidors -- and you probably have more than enough interest to watch them carefully. The foam-type humidifiers will do the job for now, as long as you keep an eye on them; in fact, your level of interest may actually be _too great_ and you'll need to recharge the humidifiers to replace moisture that escapes every time you open the humidors to admire your sticks. In time you will want to eliminate most of that constant attention, especially as your stock of cigars grows and you get more/larger humidors. When that happens, buy some Boveda packs and toss out whatever you're using now. Once you see how well the Bovedas work, you'll probably want to step up to the beads -- they cost more than Bovedas initially, but will save you money in the long run.


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## Skeat5353 (Mar 15, 2014)

I am going to make an argument for PG solution. Propylene Glycol is known as a hygroscopic. That means it can measure the amount of moisture in any contained environment. It's used by major food shipping companies to maintain freshness. It's a pretty harmless food preservative used to maintain perishable goods. The key property of Propylene Glycol is hygroscopicity. It measures the amount of H20 in a contained environment. Oddly enough, for our hobby, it only allows 70% relative humidity before it STOPS releasing hydrogen molecules into the contained environment. Somehow it measures the amount of H20 in the air. I've used it for two years, and my hygrometer has never gone above 70% RH. But I make my own solution. CVS pharmacy supplies me with Propylene Glycol and Distilled Water. I take a jigger and measure out the ratio. I actually prefer a 55/45 solution. The formula is simple: the greater amount of PG, the lower level of relative humidity. 55/45 PG solution will hold relative humidity at 67%-68% with quarterly maintenance, every three months. I use Soil Moist beads to hold the solution. Propylene Glycol does NOT evaporate. So the distilled water eventually evaporates and the ratio becomes disproportionate. So you have to replace everything again. Some aficionados complain about the chemical taste of Propylene Glycol, but I laugh and say, "Your cigars have Carbon Monoxide and Formaldehye in them, and your worried about a little Propylene Glycol!!!"


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## OnePyroTec (Dec 11, 1997)

Skeat5353 said:


> I am going to make an argument for PG solution. Propylene Glycol is known as a hydroscopic. That means it can measure the amount of moisture in any contained environment. It's used by major food shipping companies to maintain freshness. It's a pretty harmless food preservative used to maintain perishable goods. The key property of Propylene Glycol is hydroscopicity. It measures the amount of H20 in a contained environment. Oddly enough, for our hobby, it only allows 70% relative humidity before it STOPS releasing hydrogen molecules into the contained environment. Somehow it measures the amount of H20 in the air. I've used it for two years, and my hygrometer has never gone above 70% RH. But I make my own solution. CVS pharmacy supplies me with Popylene Glycol and Distilled Water. I take a jigger and measure out the ratio. I actually prefer a 55/45 solution. The formula is simple: the greater amount of PG, the lower level of relative humidity. 55/45 PG solution will hold relative humidity at 67%-68% with quarterly maintenance, every three months. I use Soil Moist beads to hold the solution. Propylene Glycol does NOT evaporate. So the distilled water eventually evaporates and the ratio becomes disproportionate. So you have to replace everything again. Some aficionados complain about the chemical taste of Propylene Glycol, but I laugh and say "Your cigars have Carbon Monoxide and Formaldehye in them, and your worried about a little Propylene Glycol!!!"


Since the OP asked about PG solutions, I won't hi-jack the thread and go into "other" types of humidification. Take the above information and study it. If you are buying a brand name you are simply paying too much. Xikar isn't selling a true 50/50 solution, and they won't give you the exact percentages either. Part of their marketing seems like a scare tactic IMHO to get you to use just their product.


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## iRabb (Jan 24, 2015)

Thank you all for this great information!

Ben


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## JMatt (Apr 9, 2015)

I believe i have read that XIKAR's solution is more in line with 90% DW and 10% PG . They do this because they have already treated their products with 50/50 solution and if you continue to use 50/50 you will gradually end up with near 100% PG and no DW with the humidifier filled. They call that a plugged up humidifier. PG evaporation is scientifically quoted as negligible at the temperatures we keep our cigars at. Therefore distilled water alone will suffice for a long period of time before more PG is required. Some of it (PG) washes off because it is water soluble and is depleted somewhat, hence the app 10% PG solution added works well to keep the humidifier in tip top shape. I am presently preforming a number of experiments using PG and SAP (super absorbent polymers) in different proportions and will post my results when finished.
Joe


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## StogieNinja (Jul 29, 2009)

So much hassle, why not ditch the dadgum stuff and get some 100% silica KL?

Here's what I do: Bovedas are treated to absorb moisture if the rh climbs above the number, and to release it's stored moisture if the rh drops below.

KL in a similar fashion will absorb moisture when it's excessive, but release moisture when rh drops.

So I use KL and Bovedas together. When things dip a bit, I spray down the KL with distilled water. The Boveda aborbs any extra moisture, rehydrating itself in the process, and my rh stays rocks steady. I literally only have to do this every couple months, and my two wine coolers have maintained rock steady for several years now.


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## JMatt (Apr 9, 2015)

Derek,

Already have and use both Boveda and 100% Silica with my cigars. however I also use PG in one humidor and i like to experiment. PG and SAP have an advantage over 100% silica in wood humidors (especially leaky ones) that are left unattended for long times. SAP stores a tremendous amount of water per square inch and when release is controlled by PG solution, it requires the least amount of maintenance compared with Silica. Of course, Bovedas are the most carefree method but also the most expensive unless you want to do the rehydration yourself. Joe


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## JMatt (Apr 9, 2015)

A small container of SAP and PG 2"dia pill bottle by 3 " high will hold 1/2t SAP 1 oz of DW and 1 oz of full strength PG for a 50/50 mix. For such a small size thats a lot of water held. Now i have 1 lb of 100 Silica and have found that it regulates (buffers) well. However just a 10g change (adding app 1/3oz of DW) to the 1 lb will increase my RH from 65% to 70% RH. Thats about 2g of water lose or gain to change 1 % so it seems to me it takes more water maintenance than using SAP and 50/50 PG for the same space requirements.


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## iRabb (Jan 24, 2015)

Since writing my OP, I've experimented and found that three Boveda 72s give me exactly the humidity I want.

You might be interested to know that Boveda is not new technology. It was originally created through a collaboration between Taylor Guitars and Humidipack, addressing the same problem that we have with cigars: adding humidity is easy, but what if the humidity gets too high? I've been using them for years with my acoustic guitars. I immediately noticed the similarity between Boveda and Humidipack, and subsequently learned that Humidipack had applied their technology to humidors, and I think to other things as well. They are the same company. But don't mix them up or you'll have dry cigars and wet guitars!
&#55357;&#56841;
Ben
&#55357;&#56847;


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## TomF (Apr 14, 2015)

I use Boveda 49% packs in my guitar cases as well. I have twice as many as I need and swap them out into a "re-hydration chamber", which is just a tupperware container with a ramekin of distilled water and a piece of a sponge in it, when they dry out. They re-hydrate quickly, within a few days. Then I keep them stored tight until the ones in the guitar cases dry out. Then I just swap the dry ones for the wet ones.

I use beads in my humidors because I'd need dozens of Boveda packs and it's much easier than trying to cycle dozens of Boveda packs in and out of re-hydration. But for a small humidor this method should work just fine.


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## JMatt (Apr 9, 2015)

Anybody that says a 50/50 solution of PG in a foam puck or in a gel (better known as Super absorbent Polymer) will "regulate" at 70%RH ... I challenge you to put that humidifier in a sealed ziplock bag with a calibrated hygrometer for 8 hours and i guarantee it will go above 75%RH .

If you place it in a wood humidor (which of course leaks some) with cigars and spanish cedar or wood which "buffer" you can definitely use the proper amount of humidification (adjustable by season) to keep it about 70%RH if the humidity outside is not greater than your desired RH . But the fact is, you are doing the regulating, not the PG/DW mixture. While it may indeed have anti fungal properties, i have been experimenting for weeks now using Drymistat tubes, Xikar solution, 50/50 PG/DW solution (New Lab quality PG) and found the 50/50 PG/DW solution from the lab or Xikar will not regulate in a sealed environment to below 75%RH . Neither will the drymistsat tubes . Only the Boveda i tested (69 and 72 packs) truly regulate. The beads/silica crystals i tested "buffer" which is a form of regulation from the conditioned set-point and are rock solid in a sealed environment but the regulation in a leaky or constantly opened environment is done by the user either adding moisture in a dry environment or drying the silica in a very humid environment.

Of course many here may already have come to the same or similar conclusions but since i spent a few weeks experimenting, i thought it good to share with those who might have a different opinion of what i learned and hope they would at least be willing to take the first sentence challenge with their PG humidifier whether foam, drymistat, or gel.


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## elco69 (May 1, 2013)

JMatt said:


> Anybody that says a 50/50 solution of PG in a foam puck or in a gel (better known as Super absorbent Polymer) will "regulate" at 70%RH ... I challenge you to put that humidifier in a sealed ziplock bag with a calibrated hygrometer for 8 hours and i guarantee it will go above 75%RH .
> 
> If you place it in a wood humidor (which of course leaks some) with cigars and spanish cedar or wood which "buffer" you can definitely use the proper amount of humidification (adjustable by season) to keep it about 70%RH if the humidity outside is not greater than your desired RH . But the fact is, you are doing the regulating, not the PG/DW mixture. While it may indeed have anti fungal properties, i have been experimenting for weeks now using Drymistat tubes, Xikar solution, 50/50 PG/DW solution (New Lab quality PG) and found the 50/50 PG/DW solution from the lab or Xikar will not regulate in a sealed environment to below 75%RH . Neither will the drymistsat tubes . Only the Boveda i tested (69 and 72 packs) truly regulate. The beads/silica crystals i tested "buffer" which is a form of regulation from the conditioned set-point and are rock solid in a sealed environment but the regulation in a leaky or constantly opened environment is done by the user either adding moisture in a dry environment or drying the silica in a very humid environment.
> 
> Of course many here may already have come to the same or similar conclusions but since i spent a few weeks experimenting, i thought it good to share with those who might have a different opinion of what i learned and hope they would at least be willing to take the first sentence challenge with their PG humidifier whether foam, drymistat, or gel.


Thanks for putting this out there.....I too have experimented. I took a glasslock food container, Xikar jar with 50/50 DW PG mix and some crappy sticks, that I knew were at 65% and within 4-5 weeks they developed mold and had a a RH of 78% inside. When I pulled the sticks out, they felt like a damp sponge.


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## JMatt (Apr 9, 2015)

Thanks Henry. 

I had thought my PG was just outdated so i ordered some new from a lab and repeated tests but it was the same. Carefully weighed out the PG and DW for 50/50. I think Xikar uses less as it went past 70% the fastest. They say it is mixed at a proprietary percentage so that the PG will be replaced at the rate it degrades. Well from my research that would be a pretty weak solution, definitely less than 50/50. I'm sticking with silica and Boveda in my tightly sealed containers and I'll use gel with PG for my leaky everyday humidor. And of course take out the gel when i go on vacation and put the cigars in a coolidor i trust with Boveda or beads/Silica


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## elco69 (May 1, 2013)

I ended up putting my Xikar jar in my wineador with just DW and I also have a pound of HF Beads in there. I just didn't want to throw the jar away. To me the jar is so small versus the wineador, it will just help the HF Beads stay hydrated a lil longer.


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## JMatt (Apr 9, 2015)

Yes , I agree. That's a good use of the gel especially with beads to protect you.


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