# 2009 SCHIP Bill Expected No Later than Spring



## dayplanner

We Ask All of You to Hold Fast to Allow Lobbyists to Work

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## Footbag

Although it is a significant tax, it won't be as bad as initial reports. This is from the current failed legislation. Looks like its going to be 44% plus $1 per cigar. Not quite the 20,000% increase we were worried about, but still significant. If I were you, I would buy your cigars now. A $5 cigar will be $8.20 under the last proposed legislation. Those who roll their own, really get screwed.

I will say that I do support the SCHIP program. It is a great program for low-income people who need to get their kids insurance. I don't support the source of the funding, but when you're $10T in debt, coming up with the money is going to hurt.

*SEC. 1001. INCREASE IN RATE OF EXCISE TAXES ON TOBACCO PRODUCTS AND CIGARETTE PAPERS AND TUBES.*


 (a) Small Cigarettes- Paragraph (1) of section 5701(b) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 is amended by striking `$19.50 per thousand ($17 per thousand on cigarettes removed during 2000 or 2001)' and inserting `$42 per thousand'.


 (b) Large Cigarettes- Paragraph (2) of section 5701(b) of such Code is amended by striking `$40.95 per thousand ($35.70 per thousand on cigarettes removed during 2000 or 2001)' and inserting `$88.20 per thousand'.


* (c) Small Cigars- Paragraph (1) of section 5701(a) of such Code is amended by striking `$1.828 cents per thousand ($1.594 cents per thousand on cigars removed during 2000 or 2001)' and inserting `$42 per thousand'.*


* (d) Large Cigars- Paragraph (2) of section 5701(a) of such Code is amended--*



* (1) by striking `20.719 percent (18.063 percent on cigars removed during 2000 or 2001)' and inserting `44.63 percent', and*




* (2) by striking `$48.75 per thousand ($42.50 per thousand on cigars removed during 2000 or 2001)' and inserting `$1 per cigar'.*



 (e) Cigarette Papers- Subsection (c) of section 5701 of such Code is amended by striking `1.22 cents (1.06 cents on cigarette papers removed during 2000 or 2001)' and inserting `2.63 cents'.


 (f) Cigarette Tubes- Subsection (d) of section 5701 of such Code is amended by striking `2.44 cents (2.13 cents on cigarette tubes removed during 2000 or 2001)' and inserting `5.26 cents'.


 (g) Snuff- Paragraph (1) of section 5701(e) of such Code is amended by striking `58.5 cents (51 cents on snuff removed during 2000 or 2001)' and inserting `$1.26'.


 (h) Chewing Tobacco- Paragraph (2) of section 5701(e) of such Code is amended by striking `19.5 cents (17 cents on chewing tobacco removed during 2000 or 2001)' and inserting `42 cents'.


 (i) Pipe Tobacco- Subsection (f) of section 5701 of such Code is amended by striking `$1.0969 cents (95.67 cents on pipe tobacco removed during 2000 or 2001)' and inserting `$2.36'.


 (j) Roll-Your-Own Tobacco-



 (1) IN GENERAL- Subsection (g) of section 5701 of such Code is amended by striking `$1.0969 cents (95.67 cents on roll-your-own tobacco removed during 2000 or 2001)' and inserting `$7.4667'.




 (2) INCLUSION OF CIGAR TOBACCO- Subsection (o) of section 5702 of such Code is amended by inserting `or cigars, or for use as wrappers for making cigars' before the period at the end.


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## papajohn67

Footbag said:


> Although it is a significant tax, it won't be as bad as initial reports. This is from the current failed legislation. Looks like its going to be 44% plus $1 per cigar. Not quite the 20,000% increase we were worried about, but still significant. If I were you, I would buy your cigars now. A $5 cigar will be $8.20 under the last proposed legislation. Those who roll their own, really get screwed.
> 
> I will say that I do support the SCHIP program. It is a great program for low-income people who need to get their kids insurance. I don't support the source of the funding, but when you're $10T in debt, coming up with the money is going to hurt.
> 
> *SEC. 1001. INCREASE IN RATE OF EXCISE TAXES ON TOBACCO PRODUCTS AND CIGARETTE PAPERS AND TUBES.*
> 
> 
> (a) Small Cigarettes- Paragraph (1) of section 5701(b) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 is amended by striking `$19.50 per thousand ($17 per thousand on cigarettes removed during 2000 or 2001)' and inserting `$42 per thousand'.
> 
> 
> (b) Large Cigarettes- Paragraph (2) of section 5701(b) of such Code is amended by striking `$40.95 per thousand ($35.70 per thousand on cigarettes removed during 2000 or 2001)' and inserting `$88.20 per thousand'.
> 
> 
> * (c) Small Cigars- Paragraph (1) of section 5701(a) of such Code is amended by striking `$1.828 cents per thousand ($1.594 cents per thousand on cigars removed during 2000 or 2001)' and inserting `$42 per thousand'.*
> 
> 
> * (d) Large Cigars- Paragraph (2) of section 5701(a) of such Code is amended--*
> 
> 
> 
> * (1) by striking `20.719 percent (18.063 percent on cigars removed during 2000 or 2001)' and inserting `44.63 percent', and*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> * (2) by striking `$48.75 per thousand ($42.50 per thousand on cigars removed during 2000 or 2001)' and inserting `$1 per cigar'.*
> 
> 
> 
> (e) Cigarette Papers- Subsection (c) of section 5701 of such Code is amended by striking `1.22 cents (1.06 cents on cigarette papers removed during 2000 or 2001)' and inserting `2.63 cents'.
> 
> 
> (f) Cigarette Tubes- Subsection (d) of section 5701 of such Code is amended by striking `2.44 cents (2.13 cents on cigarette tubes removed during 2000 or 2001)' and inserting `5.26 cents'.
> 
> 
> (g) Snuff- Paragraph (1) of section 5701(e) of such Code is amended by striking `58.5 cents (51 cents on snuff removed during 2000 or 2001)' and inserting `$1.26'.
> 
> 
> (h) Chewing Tobacco- Paragraph (2) of section 5701(e) of such Code is amended by striking `19.5 cents (17 cents on chewing tobacco removed during 2000 or 2001)' and inserting `42 cents'.
> 
> 
> (i) Pipe Tobacco- Subsection (f) of section 5701 of such Code is amended by striking `$1.0969 cents (95.67 cents on pipe tobacco removed during 2000 or 2001)' and inserting `$2.36'.
> 
> 
> (j) Roll-Your-Own Tobacco-
> 
> 
> 
> (1) IN GENERAL- Subsection (g) of section 5701 of such Code is amended by striking `$1.0969 cents (95.67 cents on roll-your-own tobacco removed during 2000 or 2001)' and inserting `$7.4667'.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (2) INCLUSION OF CIGAR TOBACCO- Subsection (o) of section 5702 of such Code is amended by inserting `or cigars, or for use as wrappers for making cigars' before the period at the end.


Define low income.

If it's a great program then fund it from general revenues. Sure tobacco is an easy target but why not a tax on sugar filled soft drinks & junk food that make kids unhealthy in the first place.

What it really is is welfare for a good cause. Would the folks that would be eligble have to provide how they spend their current income, i.e just like in welfare programs. I remember a news program the last time around when they were pushing this that profiled a couple with 2 children making 50K a year and who had no health insurance for their kids. So where's the $$'s going? What if they are driving a fancy car with huge payments, or own a boat or RV or blow their money on all of the fancy gadgets Americans seem to have to have these days. Before I am singled out and my pocket picked I damn well want to know by who and why. When I was growing up my folks put food on the table, a roof over our heads and paid medical bills out of their own pockets and their was little else in the way of luxuries. I'm willing to bet that some who are looking for help providing health insurance for their kids are also blowing $$'s on cable TV & other stuff.

Helping those who are really in need is one thing but just make sure they really deserve and need the help.


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## raralith

Even if it passes, it is important to note the effective date. I'm not too sure if it is immediately since this is to lengthen the term of the bill albiet with some modifications. We may have until the end of next year to stock up. Reguardless though, I'll be stocking up most likely to last me a few years if possible.


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## Freight Train

Great, another tax. Land of the free...what a joke.


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## Rev2010

Freight Train said:


> Great, another tax. Land of the free...what a joke.


Not "another tax" but an increase. And yeah, I sooo agree with you - you have no idea! I'm still astonished that this country was really founded due to the colonists not wanting to pay exhorbitant taxes to England. So, a few hundred years later and we're following the same trends we "revolted" against. Mind numbing.

Rev.


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## Footbag

papajohn67 said:


> Define low income.


I believe that the bill lets the states define what is low-income. This helps to cover the cost of living variances between localities.

In about '00, the PA limit was family income of $22,000 or the federal poverty level. The new bill allows the income to be up to 2 to 2.5X the Federal Poverty Level.

My whole problem is that I've been supporting the SCHIP legislation before there was any tobacco tax in the bill. I think it's a shame that they tied tobacco to the bill, but I also think its a shame that a good bill is getting bad press because they chose to fund it in a poor way.


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## Rev2010

Hey, just a thought... did anyone think yet that this might be devastating to poorer nation like Honduras, Nicaragua, Peru, etc? I mean... if the taxes on stogies go up there certainly will be a lowering in purchasing. There's no doubt about that whatsoever. Well, wouldn't these nations producing cigars try to lower the cost to us Americans thereby sacrificing on their end? Maybe lowering wages, lowering quality control, etc so as to keep business flowing and to compete? This has happened in *plenty* of other industries and has had serious adverse effects on poorer nations.

I guess we can look forward to more nations gaining hatred and/or resentment toward the USA?


Rev.


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## BigCat

I know I read about this effect on the poorer nations when the SCHIP bill was first introduced and there was talk of a $3 tax. I think Rocky Patel spoke out about how it could kill the cigar industries and put thousands of people out of jobs worldwide. I don't know if it has played a part in the supposed compromise that has been reached, though I am sure the cigar producing nations will be harmed regardless of the size of the increase.


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## gvarsity

This may kill brick and mortar retailers but I honestly don't think this will affect most cigar smokers who buy cigars over the internet. In fact I think it will drive more people to the internet to buy tobacco. Right now you pay no state taxes on tobacco over the internet and if you buy from non-us based websites you pay no federal taxes. If this passes some enterprising entrepreneurs are going to start up a massive internet based retail shop out of a tax haven like the caymans and undercut all the American based retailers. You will risk confiscation like buying Cubans on line but as that economy seems to be thriving and it is not illegal to buy or posses non-Cuban cigars in the US the risks will be low. In the end I think premium cigar customers will be ok. The people that will get hammered by the taxes are people like my grandmother who knew nothing about the internet and bought 2 cartons a week at the grocery store. Just my :2


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## houdini

Freight Train said:


> Great, another tax. Land of the free...what a joke.


:tpd: Socialism....Here we come! Thanks Obama.


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## Habanolover

Let's keep it on topic here guys.


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## NCRadioMan

gvarsity said:


> This may kill brick and mortar retailers but I honestly don't think this will affect most cigar smokers who buy cigars over the internet. In fact I think it will drive more people to the internet to buy tobacco. Right now you pay no state taxes on tobacco over the internet and if you buy from non-us based websites you pay no federal taxes. If this passes some enterprising entrepreneurs are going to start up a massive internet based retail shop out of a tax haven like the caymans and undercut all the American based retailers. You will risk confiscation like buying Cubans on line but as that economy seems to be thriving and it is not illegal to buy or posses non-Cuban cigars in the US the risks will be low. In the end I think premium cigar customers will be ok. The people that will get hammered by the taxes are people like my grandmother who knew nothing about the internet and bought 2 cartons a week at the grocery store. Just my :2


The tax increase will start with the manufacturer on importation so yes, the internet retailers will be affected. Let's just pray it doesn't pass and pray the wheels in the industry will able to lobby in our best interests. In mean time, contact your local idio.....er a Reps and Senators.


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## houdini

NCRadioMan said:


> The tax increase will start with the manufacturer on importation so yes, the internet retailers will be affected. Let's just pray it doesn't pass and pray the wheels in the industry will able to lobby in our best interests. In mean time, contact your local idio.....er a Reps and Senators.


Unfortunately, there is no hope...This went through the House in 2007 I believe. Bush vetoed it. Obama is a big advocate of it. Check his website:

http://www.barackobama.com/2007/10/18/obama_statement_on_schip_vote.php

Heres a good timeline of what happened on the previous attempt:

http://www.westcoastcigars.net/SCHIP.html


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## NCRadioMan

There is always hope. Make your voice heard.


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## houdini

NCRadioMan said:


> There is always hope. Make your voice heard.


The only thing that stopped this was President Bush. Obama will pass this through in a heartbeat. It doesnt look good...but here's to hoping!


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## borndead1

Rev2010 said:


> Hey, just a thought... did anyone think yet that this might be devastating to poorer nation like Honduras, Nicaragua, Peru, etc? I mean... if the taxes on stogies go up there certainly will be a lowering in purchasing. There's no doubt about that whatsoever. Well, wouldn't these nations producing cigars try to lower the cost to us Americans thereby sacrificing on their end? Maybe lowering wages, lowering quality control, etc so as to keep business flowing and to compete? This has happened in *plenty* of other industries and has had serious adverse effects on poorer nations.
> 
> *I guess we can look forward to more nations gaining hatred and/or resentment toward the USA?*
> 
> Rev.


No, just more aid to those countries. Also paid for by our tax dollars.


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## hotreds

Born free, taxed to death! I just love these people that breatlessly postulate that since Obama is a smoker all will be honky dorry for smokers- and- hey- he might just lift that embargo on Cubans! It's more likely that no one will be allowed to smoke anything(except "medical" marijuana)anywhere. Some people need to wake up and smell the coffee- or cigar aroma(for the last time) as the case may be!


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## Hermit

Rev2010 said:


> Hey, just a thought... did anyone think yet that this might be devastating to poorer nation like Honduras, Nicaragua, Peru, etc? I mean... if the taxes on stogies go up there certainly will be a lowering in purchasing. There's no doubt about that whatsoever. Well, wouldn't these nations producing cigars try to lower the cost to us Americans thereby sacrificing on their end? Maybe lowering wages, lowering quality control, etc so as to keep business flowing and to compete? This has happened in *plenty* of other industries and has had serious adverse effects on poorer nations.
> 
> I guess we can look forward to more nations gaining hatred and/or resentment toward the USA?
> 
> Rev.


Who cares? It's for the children.


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## houdini

Hermit said:


> Who cares? It's for the children.


Children that are the responsibility of the people that brought them into the world...Why am I being taxed to pay for their healthcare? I dont have children myself because Im not in a position to do so. Sounds pretty callous but it is what it is.


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## gvarsity

NCRadioMan said:


> The tax increase will start with the manufacturer on importation so yes, the internet retailers will be affected. Let's just pray it doesn't pass and pray the wheels in the industry will able to lobby in our best interests. In mean time, contact your local idio.....er a Reps and Senators.


That is why someone will get smart and import them to a tax haven like the Caymans and then ship them unmarked to locations in the United States untaxed. It would be illegal and tax evasion but those websites will be legal and advertised in forums like this because the onus will be on the buyers. It will be no different than as I have heard you can get Cuban cigar sales on the internet.


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## montecristo#2

The irony, when the embargo is finally lifted, the cigars will be too expensive to buy. :hn  :r


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## Hermit

houdini said:


> Children that are the responsibility of the people that brought them into the world...Why am I being taxed to pay for their healthcare? I dont have children myself because Im not in a position to do so. Sounds pretty callous but it is what it is.


Especially when you consider that "the children"
includes "children" up to age *thirty* living at home.


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## borndead1

Well folks...are we gonna start organizing a counter-offensive to this? Phone calls and emails are fine, but we need enough of them to make the lawmakers actually take notice. 


Anybody got any ideas?


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## papajohn67

borndead1 said:


> Well folks...are we gonna start organizing a counter-offensive to this? Phone calls and emails are fine, but we need enough of them to make the lawmakers actually take notice.
> 
> Anybody got any ideas?


Come on this will be a done deal. I was out packing some cigars for the troops early this morning. Took some time to take inventory of my own stash. I am fortunate enough to have cigars that would/will last me many years. Assuming this comes to pass I will most likely stock up early next year on some of my favorites then just stop buying anymore. I have no interest in having this type of program and tax placed on what works out to be a small portion of citizens.


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## LibertyToad

Footbag said:


> I will say that I do support the SCHIP program. It is a great program for low-income people who need to get their kids insurance.


Minor correction: actually it isn't just for kids--it covers adults up to 25 years of age.

Dems, be careful what you ask for.


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## epyon26

this just PISSES me off, Its socialistec bills like this is:BS. Hell how many taxes do we need i meain we alredy one of highest taxed nation in the world. WE have income, sells tax, fica, propity, road, and capatal gains taxes just to name a few, in a given year we prolbly pay up to 60-70% in taxes a year, and now the government says if you want to use tobacco you have to pay more in taxes. Thats just :BS.


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## macjoe53

epyon26 said:


> this just PISSES me off, Its socialistec bills like this is:BS. Hell how many taxes do we need i meain we alredy one of highest taxed nation in the world. WE have income, sells tax, fica, propity, road, and capatal gains taxes just to name a few, in a given year we prolbly pay up to 60-70% in taxes a year, and now the government says if you want to use tobacco you have to pay more in taxes. Thats just :BS.


The problem with taxes and spending starts with the people WHO VOTE FOR the people who hold office. Until enough people get together and vote them out of office we have to live with it. Unfortunately, as this past election indicates, the party that promises to give more away to the masses will win.

Just remember, when politicians talk about no "tax increases" they are only talking about income taxes. Excise taxes such as the tax on tobacco products will be increased and that does take money out of our pockets.


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## macjoe53

Footbag said:


> Although it is a significant tax, it won't be as bad as initial reports. This is from the current failed legislation. Looks like its going to be 44% plus $1 per cigar. Not quite the 20,000% increase we were worried about, but still significant. If I were you, I would buy your cigars now. A $5 cigar will be $8.20 under the last proposed legislation. Those who roll their own, really get screwed.
> 
> I will say that I do support the SCHIP program. It is a great program for low-income people who need to get their kids insurance. I don't support the source of the funding, but when you're $10T in debt, coming up with the money is going to hurt.


Using the 44% plus $1 information you provided means the tax increase on a $5 cigar is actually 64%. And that doesn't include any increase in state or local sales taxes.

I do not support the SCHIP program as it is currently set up. There are two many "children" currently on the program that shouldn't be and there is no mechanism for getting them off the system. The federal government should take a close look at what happened in Hawaii which was the first state to pass a SCHIP type plan. The supporters of that program preached the "fact" that insurance the plan would only cover those who family could not afford insurance. They claimed that people who could afford insurance would keep their coverage. Reality was that a number of families who had been paying for children's insurance cancelled it and went on the state plan. This caused the plan to go broke.

I also do not support funding SCHIP through tobacco taxes. The vast majority of children do not use tobacco products so their health problems are not caused by the tobacco industry so why should tobacco pay for it?

Secondly, many of the strong supporters of the tobacco tax increase have publicly claimed that they expect the higher tobacco prices to force people to stop smoking because they will no longer be able to purchase tobacco products. Wait a minute! You actually want to fund a program for children's health care by placing high taxes on a product you want people to stop buying? If they stop buying the product, won't there be a budget shortfall because the tax is not raising enough money? What are you going to tax next?


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## Good_Stogies

macjoe53 said:


> Using the 44% plus $1 information you provided means the tax increase on a $5 cigar is actually 64%. And that doesn't include any increase in state or local sales taxes.
> 
> I do not support the SCHIP program as it is currently set up. There are two many "children" currently on the program that shouldn't be and there is no mechanism for getting them off the system. The federal government should take a close look at what happened in Hawaii which was the first state to pass a SCHIP type plan. The supporters of that program preached the "fact" that insurance the plan would only cover those who family could not afford insurance. They claimed that people who could afford insurance would keep their coverage. Reality was that a number of families who had been paying for children's insurance cancelled it and went on the state plan. This caused the plan to go broke.
> 
> I also do not support funding SCHIP through tobacco taxes. The vast majority of children do not use tobacco products so their health problems are not caused by the tobacco industry so why should tobacco pay for it?
> 
> Secondly, many of the strong supporters of the tobacco tax increase have publicly claimed that they expect the higher tobacco prices to force people to stop smoking because they will no longer be able to purchase tobacco products. Wait a minute! You actually want to fund a program for children's health care by placing high taxes on a product you want people to stop buying? If they stop buying the product, won't there be a budget shortfall because the tax is not raising enough money? What are you going to tax next?


I think you have hit the nail on the head here. This has nothing to do with health care for the under privileged it is just another covert attack by the smoke nazis (smoke part optional) on the tobacco industry and those who use there products. They use children like they are a weapon because they know the average person believes in the whole "But what about the children" bit. These people are freaks and will use any tool to meet their goal even if they have to exploit kids in the process. Some times I wonder if their goal is more to control and impose their will on other people or maybe just promote the socialist agenda than it is about any thing else.

They have already decapitated the dragon for the most part by getting all these smoking bans enacted on state and local levels and I'm sure the next step on their socialist agenda is a nation wide ban. Now they are going after the smaller fish and that happens to be us. Their tactics are nothing new they first used the old "Divide and conquer" by attacking the cigarette industry and that seemed to work out pretty well for them. Now they are going after other forms of tobacco with the "What about the children" tacit and that seems to be working for them as well. The whole problem with beating these people is that there is a ton of money behind them and unfortunately in this country it has come down to the will of the wealthy not the will of the people and who ever has the most money gets what they want. Can any one say Boston cigar party?


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## epyon26

Good_Stogies said:


> I think you have hit the nail on the head here. This has nothing to do with health care for the under privileged it is just another covert attack by the smoke nazis (smoke part optional) on the tobacco industry and those who use there products. They use children like they are a weapon because they know the average person believes in the whole "But what about the children" bit. These people are freaks and will use any tool to meet their goal even if they have to exploit kids in the process. Some times I wonder if their goal is more to control and impose their will on other people or maybe just promote the socialist agenda than it is about any thing else.
> 
> They have already decapitated the dragon for the most part by getting all these smoking bans enacted on state and local levels and I'm sure the next step on their socialist agenda is a nation wide ban. Now they are going after the smaller fish and that happens to be us. Their tactics are nothing new they first used the old "Divide and conquer" by attacking the cigarette industry and that seemed to work out pretty well for them. Now they are going after other forms of tobacco with the "What about the children" tacit and that seems to be working for them as well. The whole problem with beating these people is that there is a ton of money behind them and unfortunately in this country it has come down to the will of the wealthy not the will of the people and who ever has the most money gets what they want. Can any one say Boston cigar party?


 A Boston cigar party, where and when I'm their smoking like a freight train.


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## amitlu

papajohn67 said:


> If it's a great program then fund it from general revenues. Sure tobacco is an easy target but why not a tax on sugar filled soft drinks & junk food that make kids unhealthy in the first place.


I'm enough of a fan of SCHIP as it is, but I like your idea here, mostly because the number of kids that drink HFCS-ridden stuff vastly outnumbers the number of kids that smoke. Tax Coke and that revenue pays to provide preventative and intensive care for kids and also restricts the amount of Coke kids can buy. It fights the childhood obesity/diabetes epidemic from both sides.

I'd be more in favor of the cigar tax if I saw 15 teenagers of every 100 or so rolling around with Partagas Blacks in their mouth.


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## papajohn67

amitlu said:


> I'm enough of a fan of SCHIP as it is, but I like your idea here, mostly because the number of kids that drink HFCS-ridden stuff vastly outnumbers the number of kids that smoke. Tax Coke and that revenue pays to provide preventative and intensive care for kids and also restricts the amount of Coke kids can buy. It fights the childhood obesity/diabetes epidemic from both sides.
> 
> I'd be more in favor of the cigar tax if I saw 15 teenagers of every 100 or so rolling around with Partagas Blacks in their mouth.


But this is not about kids that smoke, eat sugar, parents who can't afford healthcare but instead it is about singling out one segment of society and saying you guys have to pay for this program because your dog sh*t and an easy mark that the rest of the majority do not give a damn about.


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## gary106334

papajohn67 said:


> But this is not about kids that smoke, eat sugar, parents who can't afford healthcare but instead it is about singling out one segment of society and saying you guys have to pay for this program because your dog sh*t and an easy mark that the rest of the majority do not give a damn about.


Amen


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## borndead1

Cut foreign aid and pay for the program that way.


I think that when we start contacting our representatives, a slogan of "no new taxes to pay for SCHIP" or something along those lines should be our mantra.


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## Hermit

Well, they're planning to cut military spending by 25%.
That oughtta save a few bucks...until the shit hits the fan.


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## macjoe53

Hermit said:


> Well, they're planning to cut military spending by 25%.
> That oughtta save a few bucks...until the shit hits the fan.


That's the most stupid thing they could do and it get's trotted out every time a certain political party gets in power going back as far as the end or WWII.

If they were really interested in reducing the deficit then they would gut foreign aid program - that does very little of what they are intended to do - and start calling on some of the foreign countries that owe the US to pay us back. Oh! Wait. The United Nations (against the US) wouldn't like that.


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## borndead1

Guys, let's not let this turn into a fight. Finger pointing and complaining are not going to help us.

Are we gonna send some emails and make some phone calls? Or are we just gonna bitch? *If we don't at least TRY to fight this, then we are giving our consent.*

If we start organizing now, we can start making a really big noise at the beginning of the year.

*No new taxes to pay for SCHIP*


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## macjoe53

I've already sent emails to my senators and representatives expressing my views against high taxes on tobacco being used to fund SCHIP. 

If you want to organize something else to peacefully get their attention, you can count me in.


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## DonnieW

montecristo#2 said:


> The irony, when the embargo is finally lifted, the cigars will be too expensive to buy. :hn  :r


Assuming one buys them in the States. Cubans are legal here in Canada but damned if anyone buys them here (being fecicious). So I guess the positive news is the proposed tax won't have any affect on those who buy their smokes illegally or through out of country vendors.


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## BigCat

DonnieW said:


> Assuming one buys them in the States. Cubans are legal here in Canada but damned if anyone buys them here (being fecicious). So I guess the positive news is the proposed tax won't have any affect on those who buy their smokes illegally or through out of country vendors.


I respectfully disagree...if you increase demand for cuban cigars, which you would be doing greatly by lifting the embargo, and keep supply constant, which I believe will be the case, at least initially, the price will skyrocket everywhere. Eventually the prices should settle down if Cuba ups production or if the novelty wears off for less serious smokers and demand falls again. But it will be a world-wide phenomenon I think.


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## DonnieW

BigCat said:


> I respectfully disagree...if you increase demand for cuban cigars, which you would be doing greatly by lifting the embargo, and keep supply constant, which I believe will be the case, at least initially, the price will skyrocket everywhere. Eventually the prices should settle down if Cuba ups production or if the novelty wears off for less serious smokers and demand falls again. But it will be a world-wide phenomenon I think.


Mixing eggs here, supply and demand won't have anything to do with proposed tax increases. Doesn't matter what the cost is driven to, if you buy from a tax-free vendor, it's just that, tax free. Those American's who buy out of country won't be affected by this bill, that's all I'm saying.


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## BigCat

DonnieW said:


> Mixing eggs here, supply and demand won't have anything to do with proposed tax increases. Doesn't matter what the cost is driven to, if you buy from a tax-free vendor, it's just that, tax free. Those American's who buy out of country won't be affected by this bill, that's all I'm saying.


On second thought, I think I misunderstood your point...I was talking about the effect of an end to the embargo on cubans while you were talking about the effect of the SCHIP bill on non-cubans. My bad.


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## epyon26

papajohn67 said:


> But this is not about kids that smoke, eat sugar, parents who can't afford healthcare but instead it is about singling out one segment of society and saying you guys have to pay for this program because your dog sh*t and an easy mark that the rest of the majority do not give a damn about.





borndead1 said:


> Cut foreign aid and pay for the program that way.
> 
> I think that when we start contacting our representatives, a slogan of "no new taxes to pay for SCHIP" or something along those lines should be our mantra.





macjoe53 said:


> That's the most stupid thing they could do and it get's trotted out every time a certain political party gets in power going back as far as the end or WWII.
> 
> If they were really interested in reducing the deficit then they would gut foreign aid program - that does very little of what they are intended to do - and start calling on some of the foreign countries that owe the US to pay us back. Oh! Wait. The United Nations (against the US) wouldn't like that.


 :tpd::tpd::tpd:


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## Hermit

I wrote thoughtful letters to my representatives.
I might as well have wrote em on toilet paper and wiped my ass with em.


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## gary106334

Hermit said:


> I wrote thoughtful letters to my representatives.
> I might as well have wrote em on toilet paper and wiped my ass with em.


I have done that many times over the many years I have lived. Never once has it done any good. Really need a few hundred thousand such letter to make a difference. If they feel they have enough voters to vote against them they will act and only then.


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## gary106334

Okay maybe I exaggerated a touch. Maybe 4 or 5 thousand such letter would work.


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## Hermit

gary106334 said:


> I have done that many times over the many years I have lived. Never once has it done any good. Really need a few hundred thousand such letter to make a difference. If they feel they have enough voters to vote against them they will act and only then.


We're the only minority that it's okay to discriminate against.


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## borndead1

gary106334 said:


> Okay maybe I exaggerated a touch. Maybe 4 or 5 thousand such letter would work.


How many members does CS have? How about if we join forces with other forums????? Talk to people at B&Ms?

Imagine 50,000 emails and phone calls all made on the exact same day, throughout the country.


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## gary106334

borndead1 said:


> How many members does CS have? How about if we join forces with other forums????? Talk to people at B&Ms?
> 
> Imagine 50,000 emails and phone calls all made on the exact same day, throughout the country.


Certainly worth a try.:2


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## macjoe53

Check this link

http://www.cigarrights.org/


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## tccigar

:tpd:

http://www.cigarrights.org


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## yayson

tccigar said:


> :tpd:
> 
> http://www.cigarrights.org


suits, golf, suits and fancy dinners. Brilliant. The public face of cigars is comfort and excess. I hate that.


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## epyon26

borndead1 said:


> How many members does CS have? How about if we join forces with other forums????? Talk to people at B&Ms?
> 
> Imagine 50,000 emails and phone calls all made on the exact same day, throughout the country.





gary106334 said:


> Certainly worth a try.:2


 tell me when and I'm there


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## tccigar

yayson said:


> suits, golf, suits and fancy dinners. Brilliant. The public face of cigars is comfort and excess. I hate that.


Really didn't notice that. I agree.
:tu


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## Hermit

Whatcha got against comfort and excess?


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## jledou

geshh, where is Joe the Plumber when you need him, ehh.

In all seriousness are people CRA members?


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## macjoe53

I've sent my registration in.
I'm in the 25% tax bracket and I don't play golf.


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## PipesandGOP

Good_Stogies said:


> I think you have hit the nail on the head here. This has nothing to do with health care for the under privileged it is just another covert attack by the smoke nazis (smoke part optional) on the tobacco industry and those who use there products. They use children like they are a weapon because they know the average person believes in the whole "But what about the children" bit. These people are freaks and will use any tool to meet their goal even if they have to exploit kids in the process. Some times I wonder if their goal is more to control and impose their will on other people or maybe just promote the socialist agenda than it is about any thing else.
> 
> They have already decapitated the dragon for the most part by getting all these smoking bans enacted on state and local levels and I'm sure the next step on their socialist agenda is a nation wide ban. Now they are going after the smaller fish and that happens to be us. Their tactics are nothing new they first used the old "Divide and conquer" by attacking the cigarette industry and that seemed to work out pretty well for them. Now they are going after other forms of tobacco with the "What about the children" tacit and that seems to be working for them as well. The whole problem with beating these people is that there is a ton of money behind them and unfortunately in this country it has come down to the will of the wealthy not the will of the people and who ever has the most money gets what they want. *Can any one say Boston cigar party?*


Amen! I am so sick of this business of being made to look like a jerk just because I don't support this program. My mother is a school teacher and she can tell you that every child in that school who comes from a poor family gets healthcare, and alot of it depends on the type of family the kid comes from. The ones on government nanny healthcare are all on meds all day long, they have to leave constantly to go take another pill, they all get free glasses etc.. but then some of them are wearing braces. Then you have the kids whose parents suck it up and keep working hard trying to make it.. and yea they have their problems too, but they don't go expecting a hand out. What people need to figure out is any child who goes to the emergency room will be brought right back and treated regardless of insurance. True, their parents will be slapped with a bill, but they deserve it. Also, we already have a program that does the same thing as schip- medicaid.
Newsflash to these wacked out dems- HEALTHCARE IS NOT A RIGHT. I love this country more than anything in this world and it's built on the constitution, and I hate seeing it bastardized by these bums like Nancy Pelosi, Dian Feinstine, and Barbera Boxer, who should be ashamed of themselves as grandmothers; Barny Frank and the rest of the Dems. And the Dems aren't the only ones- George Bush and John McShame are in the same boat as well due to their constant pushing of liberal policies and appeasment mentality. And I'd say it's time they're held accountable.

The problem comes when there are more non-producers than producers in a country and the media is brainwashing them to believe they're entitled to everything they want in life.

Sorry guys, had to rant a little. Hell it might not even make sense, but had to throw that out there:2


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## FN in MT

I'm going to be surprised IF we get away at a mere forty cent a stick tax. I'm fully expecting the Demo's to amend it to a higher rate especially if this Bill appears to be moving along briskly.

I'm SO SICK and TIRED of getting bent over "for the children". 

Great excuse to go nuts stocking the humidor though!! 

FN in MT


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## BlueHavanaII

FN in MT said:


> I'm going to be surprised IF we get away at a mere forty cent a stick tax. I'm fully expecting the Demo's to amend it to a higher rate especially if this Bill appears to be moving along briskly.
> 
> I'm SO SICK and TIRED of getting bent over "for the children".
> 
> Great excuse to go nuts stocking the humidor though!!
> 
> FN in MT


The 40 cent tax looks like it will be it... FOR NOW!
I'd expect this to increase over several years.

I had a thought tho... the root of the problem is that we are a minority. Less than 6% of Americans smoke cigars. As a minority, the politicians don't care about us. If every cigar smoker could convince a non-smiking friend to enjoy the pleasures of the leaf, and this could repeat several times, we would no longer be a minority!

So, my call to arms is for everyone to recruit a new smoker (it won't hurt my business either!)

Jim


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## Thug Na$ty

Just my two cents, but does anyone have faith that this money will actually go where its planned. I know with several other things like the profits from the lottery, at least here in Texas, indeed a part of the money goes where its proposed, but alot of it lost in much larger funds that pay for alot of things. Im not usually one to be paranoid, but keeping a close eye on what actually happens might be a good way to fight back if there are plans to raise it in the future, which most of is see happening.


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## oldforge

I encourage everyone to stock up big time (if you haven't already  ) before April 1.

We need SCHIP to fail to meet its revenue projections and go broke on tobacco taxes.

That is the _only_ way I see this turning around in the next few years.

Starve the beast!



BlueHavanaII said:


> The 40 cent tax looks like it will be it... FOR NOW!
> I'd expect this to increase over several years.
> 
> I had a thought tho... the root of the problem is that we are a minority. Less than 6% of Americans smoke cigars. As a minority, the politicians don't care about us. If every cigar smoker could convince a non-smiking friend to enjoy the pleasures of the leaf, and this could repeat several times, we would no longer be a minority!
> 
> So, my call to arms is for everyone to recruit a new smoker (it won't hurt my business either!)
> 
> Jim


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## macjoe53

oldforge said:


> I encourage everyone to stock up big time (if you haven't already  ) before April 1.
> 
> We need SCHIP to fail to meet its revenue projections and go broke on tobacco taxes.
> 
> That is the _only_ way I see this turning around in the next few years.
> 
> Starve the beast!


:rotfl:
You believe that this can be turned around.
Reality is that when the tobacco tax fails to reach revenue projections they will either raise the tax higher or find something else to tax.


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## mcmoyer

oldforge said:


> I encourage everyone to stock up big time (if you haven't already  ) before April 1.
> 
> We need SCHIP to fail to meet its revenue projections and go broke on tobacco taxes.
> 
> That is the _only_ way I see this turning around in the next few years.
> 
> Starve the beast!


Dude, you're NOT going to "Starve the beast"...you may starve the folks making & selling the smokes, but the beast will live on until the air you breathe is taxed.

:bitchslap:


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## oceanelect4

pretty sure i read the tax will go into effect april 1st this yr


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## oldforge

I guess a little history is in order. When the last Democratic administration took office (you know, the guy who liked cigars.  ) they imposed a tax on yacht production. It had that great "tax the rich" feel to it.

As a result the yacht producers in the US closed their doors, moved offshore, and "starved the beast". Today the yacht taxes are gone.



mcmoyer said:


> Dude, you're NOT going to "Starve the beast"...you may starve the folks making & selling the smokes, but the beast will live on until the air you breathe is taxed.
> 
> :bitchslap:


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## RapidTransit

My god we will be put of business.... When I say we have a ton of cigarette tobacco I really mean we have over a ton of it. It has become more lucrative than cigars.

At a $24 dollar floor tax we would be loooking at about $48,000 payment... time for a huge blowout sale


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## BlueHavanaII

RapidTransit said:


> My god we will be put of business.... When I say we have a ton of cigarette tobacco I really mean we have over a ton of it. It has become more lucrative than cigars.
> 
> At a $24 dollar floor tax we would be loooking at about $48,000 payment... time for a huge blowout sale


The gov't feels your pain... and will credit $500 toward the floor tax, so you'll only owe $47,500. Hope this helps!!! :banghead:


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## papajohn67

Hermit said:


> We're the only minority that it's okay to discriminate against.


Apparently you are not overweight....plenty of forms of open & subtle discrimination take place each day.

On SCHIP itself the tobacco tax will never cover the cost of the program. If the Golden Goose (us) is not dead already we are at best currently on life support.


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## mcmoyer

oldforge said:


> Today the yacht taxes are gone.


I'd forgotten about that piece of work(mercifully, I was living in Saudi Arabia for most of the Clinton era).


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## strider72

Freight Train said:


> Great, another tax. Land of the free...what a joke.


 Land of the free... but taxed accordingly..


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## BlueHavanaII

*S-CHIP Update*

Senate Bill HR2, known as S-CHIP, passed the senate last night 66-32.
The Senate now will beet with the House of Representatives to reconcile with the bill that they passed last week. Once the bill is reconciled, it will go to the president for signature into law, expected within 2 weeks. The bill will go into effect on April 1st and will generate $32b in the next 5 years from smokers pockets to insure children


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## Cobra54

Here's what I understand..
The Senate bill differs from the bill passed by the House of Representatives in that it has higher taxes on cigars. The House version raises the Federal tax on cigars from the current 4.875 cents per cigar to 40 cents each. The Senate version increases the tax to 40.26 cents each. The bill is expected to be taken up by the Senate next week. If the additional tax is not amended out of the Senate bill, it will require a House-Senate conference committee to reconcile these issues and could delay the presentation of the bill for signature by President Barack Obama. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nevada) said that the Senate bill could be passed this week.

I sent a note to my Congress People and Reps on the schip and a proposed smoking ban in Michigan:
The schip legislation - I have concerns about health care for non citizen children. I have greater concerns with the funding via tobacco. Every percent of tax affects cigar sales at a 1:1 ratio. Honduras, DR, Nicaragua, etc. rely heavily on the tobacco agriculture industry. Over 40% of the workforce is women, often the primary income earner for their families. The domino effect of funding of those families, industries and economies will be far greater than the benefits. The new President says he's a world leader, this legislation is more "ugly American" taking for themselves at the expense of others. It's even more aggravating given that health care costs are out of control. Instead of fixing the prices for affordability you propose legislation feeding the monster. Political b.s. that does little to support the cries of "change".
I have strong reservation with the proposed Michigan smoking ban as well. It should not be totally inclusive. It may not be popular to smoke at a cigar shop however, it's a legal activity and I take great offense to the behavior control and criminalization. I'll respect your eatery and bar rights, please respect mine at my purpose focused establishments.


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## Silky01

*Re: S-CHIP Update*



BlueHavanaII said:


> The bill will go into effect on April 1st and will generate $32b in the next 5 years from smokers pockets to insure children


Don't know about that. I hope it doesn't and it really F's them up even more then they are now; maybe then they'll move on to something else: EtOH, or how about taxing their own pleasures for once!


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## Maduro_Scotty

I found an interesting story on the Stogie Guys blog. According to Rocky Patel as published on the site, the tax could've been twenty cents, but large producers like Altadis, who make a ton of machine made cigars, resisted. The story goes that handmade cigars were sacrificd on the altar for the benfit of the much larger produced machnine made varieties who would be taxed less. An Altadis representative was thriled about Rocky Patel's comments.



> Unlike Mr. Patel, Altadis USA is the largest manufacturer of premium cigars and owns and operates its own cigar factories including the largest hand-made cigar factory in the world. We, in fact, have a much larger vested interest in the tax and cap than Mr. Patel. For him to suggest otherwise is inaccurate,"


:fencing: opcorn:


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## FN in MT

I did a $289 order last week and another order this week with CI for another $300+. Had to stop at a buddies and borrow a huge cooler he has to keep things stable until I figure out WHERE to put them all. Bought several bundles of my favorite Yard-Gars this last order. Enough to keep me going for a few years.

This week I'm going to buy two boxes of Padrom Anni 64's. And I'm done.

I'm headed to Reno in mid April for the Big Reno Gun Show and usually stock up at FUMARE while I'm there. Damned Demo's and their stupid Law are going to screw that up! 

I DO like the idea of STOCKING UP NOW.....then watch their tax income languish. Doesn't help the Industry or the Vendors though. 



FN in MT


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