# Which Temp Controller in Your Wineador?



## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

Pretty simple. My EdgeStar 28 runs a bit too cool for my taste and it's set to max. I need a temp controller and am wondering what you guys are using. I've only played with the digitals, but owned a couple of analogs for brewing purposes.

Ranco, or Johnson? Which model and why?

Thanks ahead of time.


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## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

10days and not a peep out of anyone? 

How bout if I say, "pretty peas"?


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## piperdown (Jul 19, 2009)

Good question Don. Maybe no one else is using an additional controller.
I had a ranco at one point for lagering when I had the extra fridge. I liked it because it was darn near indestructable.
That being said couple of buddies of mine switched to the Johnson control because they got better temp control over the analog ranco.
I think either would work.


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## yellowv (Dec 24, 2011)

I don't think many of us are running additional controllers. I set my NewAir at 65 and it stays at 66-67 pretty much all the time. How low does the Edgestar get?


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## shadowman024 (Jun 20, 2012)

lucky my emerson goes to 66 so not needed, i looked online it say's mid 60's whats wrong with that?


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## jphank (Apr 29, 2012)

Hannibal was just telling me about his digital temp controller he scored on eBay. I'm hoping he sees this and chimes in


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## Cigar Noob (May 22, 2011)

do you not have AC? I thought you were in a different post saying people don't need to plug them in (don't know the reasoning behind that opinion though).


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## KaChong (Jan 1, 2012)

I've been running one of these:

Universal 1/32 DIN PID Temperature Controller Universal 1/32 DIN PID Temperature Controller [SYL-1512A] - $36.95 : auberins.com, Temperature control solutions for home and industry

using a K type thermocouple:

K Type Thermocouple for BBQ Smoker Oven. [TC-K6H] - $9.55 : auberins.com, Temperature control solutions for home and industry

Unfortunately my vinodor is a compressor model so I have to use it on on/off mode which means I don't get to use the sexy PID mode which results in much finer temperature control. I have taped my temperature sensor right onto the chiller panel about 5" from the expansion point so I my temp control only keeps the compressor running for maybe 30s at a time. I note that it seems to turn on every 8min or so which is as fine a control resolution as I think I can manage since compressors don't like being turned on more frequently than around 5min. That being said, my accessory hygro indicates a nice steady 65F. I need more fans though to get better convection transfer over the chiller panel. My chiller panel gets below the dew point so it's constantly wet. It's not accumulating and dripping out a continuous stream of condensate, but I won't be able to get rid of the condensation unless I can reduce the temperature gradients in the chiller panel. I may have to bond a heavy copper sheet to the chiller panel to even out the cooling from the expansion point. If I can get the whole thing to not dip below 57F it'll be above the dew point at 65F (70%RH).

Anyhow, your vinodor is not a compressor model so my digression doesn't help you much. I like this temperature control because:

-it's economical ($47 incl' wired thermocouple sensor)
-it is configurable for PID and on/off modes
-it's really configurable (I've programmed it to trigger at 1C hysteresis)
-autotune PID mode (saves you from calculus mojo because it thinks for you and damps out overshoot)

The controller remembers it's settings if you power if off. This is handy in case you get a black out power failure. Ultimately you really want to use this device as a PID control device. With a thermoelectric cooling system you'll be more likely to keep condensation under control while maintaining consistent temperature. If you do decide to go with this doodad, I'd be happy to help you out with wiring it up.


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## jphank (Apr 29, 2012)

^^ was mostly greek to me! I'm interested in learning about these tho.


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## KaChong (Jan 1, 2012)

Sorry, I have been thinking about temperature control for some time. Thermoelectric vinodors seem to be far less available in Canada for some reason. I got a Danby 30 bottle fridge on Kijiji or $75 at the beginning of the year. It's nice and big, but man it sucks that it's a compressor model. 

The thermocouple is a necessary accessory component for measuring temperature. It's basically a doodad with a wire on it you can stick somewhere in your vinodor setup to measure temperature. I could stick it floating somewhere to measure air temperature in the vinodor, but I decided to stick it to the big sheet of metal that gets cold so I could try to reduce condensation. I surmised that condensation is a more difficult problem to solve than temperature control in the end. 

I'm going to try to skip over the issues of dealing with compressor issues since most of the members here seem to have thermoelectric devices. The long and short of it is that compressors don't like to be turned on and off rapidly. You generally should wait 3-5min after turning a compressor fridge off before switching it back on again. This is not the case with thermoelectric devices which employ a different method of cooling which allow you to turn them on and off about as fast as you want.

About on-off control: This is the classic closed loop control method. You set two setpoints when you want to keep something refrigerated at a certain temp. One setpoint is the upper setpoint (say 67F) where you want to turn your refrigeration system on to start extracting heat. The other setpoint is the lower setpoint (say 65F) where you want to turn off your refrig' system so things don't get too cold. The gap between these two points is 2F and is referred to as the hysteresis. Unfortunately most cooling systems have a kind of "inertia" where your system will continue to cool despite plunging below the lower setpoint. Your temperature can dip below the 65F setting because your cooling mechanism is targeted to deactivate right at 65F which means the cooling doodads might already have hit 55F by the time your temperature probe detects 65F. Because your temperature probe is not typically attached to your cooling circuit, there will be some delay from which your control system will be able to "expect" this kind of overswing. If you glue your temp probe right to your cooling circuit, you'll find that your system will be constantly turning on and off as your system yo-yos between temperature setpoints. Basically with on-off control schemes you'll be overswinging past your control points which is what we are trying to avoid with our desires for stable temperature performance.

Enter PID control:

PID stands for Proportional, Integral, Derivative. These are three factors from which you can run an algorithm to predict the behavior of your total system and achieve temperature control without very large overswings. It has become a standard for a lot of industrial process control and thankfully, with developments in microprocessors, has become quite affordable to use for silly things like manage a pile of cigars. Pour yourself a drink and dig out a calculus textbook if you want to continue. The crap below isn't exactly important, but if your curious, read on. I am also in the bag so you'll need a solid buzz to translate.

PID algorithms basically look at a single setpoint temperature (your desired temperature DT) and your actual temperature (AT). The P component of PID works on the proportional difference between your DT and AT. Basically a constant, aptly named P, is multiplied with the result of DT minus AT to give a value to provide to your general PID algorithm. The further from DT that AT is, the greater the magnitude of this input. Sign (negative/positive) indicates the "direction" of this correction input.

I'm going to skip to "D". The D in PID refers to Derivative. This is the rate of change of (DT - AT). If you plot the difference between DT and AT with respect to time, you'll get some sort of curve plot. At any given time, this curve will have a slope. The term "D" represents a constant to multiply to this slope at and current instant to give a value to provide to your general PID algorithm. Basically the rate of change of DT versus AT is multiplied by some constant to give a number for deciding what to do with your refrigeration circuit.

Finally "I". The I in PID refers to Integral. This is the rate of change of the rate of change of (DT - AT). WTF?!BBQ? This in an analogous sense is the "acceleration" of (DT - AT). This is a sense of how fast the slope of (DT - AT) is changing. A constant, named "I" is multiplied to the rate of change of the rate of change of (DT - AT) to provide an input to your general PID algo. Tis is a wierd one for sure, but if one remembers what a parabola looks like, it gets steeper as you stray further from your Y axis. The slope of your parabola increases as you get further away so the integral of your parabola is therefore increasing as you get further away. This component of PID control basically puts the hammer down on most runaway events like opening your fridge door which dumps in a shittonne of warm air. The I component accelerates the return of your system to it's DT.

So in a nutshell, that's PID control. If you are olde school, you have to pick the constants PID to tune your control algorithm. Now we have microprocessors which can be programmed to tweak your constants as it learns the behavior of your system which is kind of awesome. No more taking measurements and calculating adjustments to PID, there are controllers which will do the math for you on a running basis.


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## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

Cigar Noob said:


> do you not have AC? I thought you were in a different post saying people don't need to plug them in (don't know the reasoning behind that opinion though).


No. My house was built in 1932, just a few years before AC. I just installed a window unit in my den, but it does a poor job of cooling and gets no where near the temp I want. My wineador is currently running at 63* with an ambient room temp of 76. I'd prefer to get the fridge temp to a constant 68*.

The point I was trying to make in the other thread is that if you keep your central air, or at least the air in the room where the 'dor is, at or about 70*, there's no need to run it. Like I said in that thread, it's not super critical that I up the temp, since I can live with the slowed aging process.

Carl,

thanks for the detailed info, but what I really want is the simplicity of the Johnson and Ranco units. It appears that that Auber you bought isn't all-in-one. I'd have to wire it and purchase an aftermarket sensor. With the Johnson and Ranco you just plug the fridge to the unit, unit to the wall, snake the sensor and you're in business. The only PITA is that last; drilling a hole and snaking the probe.


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## KaChong (Jan 1, 2012)

Hi Don,

I just looked at the Ranco unit. Looks to be a good price for a fully wired unit. The one I linked to does require some wiring to get it going. It's a shame they didn't set it up with PID. Once a microcontroller is in play they could have put in the feature.

Look for a drain hole in your vinodor. Maybe you can run your sensor into the hole. On my vinodor, I just taped the wires to pass under the door gasket. I haven't finished my setup, but I figured the little leak in the gasket wasn't a big deal. The whole box doesn't breathe like a wooden humidor does so maybe just a little air exchange is a good thing. I note my RH and temp are pretty stable so I don't think the little wiring gap is a problem. When I get a chance I'm going to pull out the plug and see if I can run the wires out there.


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## Hannibal (Apr 22, 2011)

Don,

I'm sorry it's taken me so long to see this. This is the exact unit I am running in my setup and have had Zero issues what so ever!!!

Temp Control Digital Unit Thermostat Beer Tap Kegerator | eBay


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## Cigar Noob (May 22, 2011)

Herf N Turf said:


> The point I was trying to make in the other thread is that if you keep your central air, or at least the air in the room where the 'dor is, at or about 70*, there's no need to run it. Like I said in that thread, it's not super critical that I up the temp, since I can live with the slowed aging process.


70 seems like an unnaturally low temperature to keep the house at in the summer. Even if I tried freezing my house and keeping it at 70 I'd still want the fan on to circulate the air so I'd still keep it plugged in. I mean they come with a cooling element and a fan, why have if you don't want either of those features? :dunne: to each his own.

Where do you live btw?

Edit: just peaked at the profile, SW VA! Used to fly in and out of their as a kid, lived in Dublin for a bit, same with Blacksburg and then visited family quite a bit there.


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## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

Jonathan,

Yup, the fan is in there for circulation and is essential, due to the fact that thermo-electric plates do a piss-poor job of cooling relatively large volumes of air and needs the fan to move cool air around. They can also produce large amounts of condensate on the plate and the fan helps move that away. It also helps move air around in order to mitigate cold/hot, moist/dry spots. Being as the fridges are rectangular, they would tend to render very dry cool areas on the bottom and relatively warm, moist spots at the top. Gotta have the fan.

Oh, and the drain hole is too small to snake the probe through. That was my first idea, but sadly, it's gonna take a drill.


Thanks for the link, Kevin.


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## Reino (Sep 13, 2010)

I am sure you already know this Don but keep in mind the differential swing. I believe the Johnson runs 3 or 4 degrees. So say you set it at 69 it turns on at 70 and cools to 66.
I do not think you will be able to keep it at constant 68 degrees with a basic Johnson or a Ranco fridge controller.


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## Hannibal (Apr 22, 2011)

John,

That is not 100% true. You can set the final value on the one that I have to 1 degree. So that would give you a 2 degree swing. 1 up or down from the set number.


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## kapathy (Nov 20, 2010)

don, maybe you can undo the other end (inside the controller) and snake the wires through that way.... I would guess that it is not soldered so that people can shorten the cable if they want to. I'm just guessing though.


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