# PSA: -- 2005 RHRP for Cuba



## Roger Miller" (Apr 15, 2004)

The State Department just released (March) it's 2005 Report on Human Rights Practices. Here is a link to the report on Cuba. Just in case anybody else was interested.

Summary of findings:

The government's human rights record remained poor, and the government continued to commit numerous, serious abuses. At least 333 Cuban political prisoners and detainees were held at year's end. The following human rights problems were reported:

denial of citizens' rights to change their government 
beatings and abuse of detainees and prisoners, including human rights activists, carried out with impunity 
transfers of mentally healthy prisoners to psychiatric facilities for political reasons 
frequent harassment of political opponents by government-recruited mobs 
extremely harsh and life-threatening prison conditions, including denial of medical care 
arbitrary arrest and detention of human rights advocates and members of independent professional organizations 
denial of fair trial, particularly to political prisoners 
interference with privacy, including pervasive monitoring of private communications 
severe limitations on freedom of speech and press 
denial of peaceful assembly and association 
restrictions on freedom of movement, including selective denial of exit permits to thousands of citizens 
refusal to recognize domestic human rights groups or to permit them to function legally 
domestic violence, underage prostitution, and sex tourism 
discrimination against persons of African descent 
severe restrictions on worker rights, including the right to form independent unions

_____
rm


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

Someone else could swap for "Cuba" for "USA" and come up with similar results. That report is worthless, baseless propaganda.


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## RcktS4 (Jan 13, 2005)

mosesbotbol said:


> Someone else could swap for "Cuba" for "USA" and come up with similar results. That report is worthless, baseless propaganda.


To say that we are the same as Cuba in that regard strkies me as some serious hyperbole Moses.

While some of these same charges could certainly be leveled at the US in the past five years as well, that absolutely does not render the report useless propoganda...

These sorts of violations in the US are clearly the exception, so much so in fact that they almost always occur outside our boundaries and in secret because they are so obviously beyond the pale for our society.

Should we cease paying attention to independent assemesments of civil liberties and human rghts organizations because our own country has crossed some of these lines recently?

Baby with the bathwater...

edit: this is in no way meant as a defense of secret prisons, 'enemy combatant' status, Gitmo and Abu Ghraib. It's just the reflection that none of those things make this report any less an indictment of Cuba.


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

It's all a matter of perspective and "pick and choosing" which one wishes to acknowledge. I could write a report to make the USA look like heaven on earth or a fascist totalitarian state. The fact is, no matter how Cuba treats its citizens or what Cuba contributes to the world, the US government is going keep the status quo.

It's not so much whether our violations are the norm or an exception, the same as in Cuba, but if it does happen, we are just as guilty in essence.

Each one of Cuba's "offenses" I can state a current American equivalent. It's just to show how worthless this report really is. Some of these infractions are just laughable. Let's see what the UN's report or a third party's report of Cuba vs. US these terms yields.

Many Americans have an insular view of the world like the "Emperor Wears No Clothes". We are all citizens of the world and shouldn't have such a vacuous view; or we end up hypocrites in the end.


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## bpegler (Mar 30, 2006)

mosesbotbol said:


> Many Americans have an insular view of the world like the "Emperor Wears No Clothes". We are all citizens of the world and shouldn't have such a vacuous view; or we end up hypocrites in the end.


Perhaps some of us are simply American citizens, and missed the part where we were "citizens of the world".

Must be the blinders we wear...


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

We are beyond the days of just our borders. If we were just american citizens, then why should we care what happens in Afghanistan, Iraq, Cuba, N. Korea, Iran, Balkans, Darfour... 

I don't ever plan to go to any of those areas, could care less about trading with them, but plenty of our american citizens are dying over them, and a hell lot of my tax money I bust my ass to earn for our government goes there. We are entering a new epoch, Globalization, and hence Citizen of the World as nothing is exclusive to one country really... Look at where everything is made, the service industries, etc... We, as a country should just respect differences of sovereign states and leave it at that.


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## dayplanner (Dec 11, 1997)

RcktS4 said:


> To say that we are the same as Cuba in that regard strkies me as some serious hyperbole Moses.


That is not what he said at all. He is just pointing to the fallibility of the report. You can twist thesse words and indict any country you wish.


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

slowhand said:


> That is not what he said at all. He is just pointing to the fallibility of the report. You can twist these words and indict any country you wish.


Exactly.


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## Roger Miller" (Apr 15, 2004)

mosesbotbol said:


> Someone else could swap for "Cuba" for "USA" and come up with similar results. That report is worthless, baseless propaganda


You know, I think it is possible that your apparent resentments of our nation's behavior may have informed your interpretation of this document. (and parenthetically, i'm glad you have the right to resent your government and speak freely of it without fear of incarceration, disappearance or summary execution)

Let me try and lay out what i think is the value and the purpose of this document, beside the fact that it is legally mandated, by clipping some salient pieces from the introduction.

"_ The Department of State published the first annual country reports on human rights practices in 1977 in accordance with congressional mandate, and they have become an essential element of the United States' effort to promote respect for human rights worldwide. For nearly three decades, the reports have served as a reference document and a foundation for cooperative action among governments, organizations, and individuals seeking to end abuses and strengthen the capacity of countries to protect the fundamental rights of all."_

So what we have is a 30 year record on the status of human rights across the globe. A worthy effort, no?

_"To be sure, violations of human rights and miscarriages of justice can and do occur in democratic countries. No governmental system is without flaws. Human rights conditions in democracies across the globe vary widely, and these country reports reflect that fact. In particular, democratic systems with shallow roots and scarce resources can fall far short of meeting their solemn commitments to citizens, including human rights commitments. Democratic transitions can be tumultuous and wrenching. Rampant corruption can retard democratic development, distort judicial processes, and destroy public trust. Nonetheless, taken overall, countries with democratic systems provide far greater protections against violations of human rights than do nondemocratic states." _

And a recognition that human rights remain an issue, even within Democracies.

_" The United States' own journey toward liberty and justice for all has been long and difficult, and it is still far from complete. Yet over time our independent branches of government, our free media, our openness to the world, and, most importantly, the civic courage of impatient American patriots help us keep faith with our founding ideals and our international human rights obligations."_

As well as a recognition that the United States is not immune to human rights abuses.

_"These country reports offer a factual basis by which to assess the progress made on human rights and the challenges that remain."_

Now you may challenge whether or not the basis is, indeed factual. But, if you do so, it seems to me that you have an obligation to gather the facts, rather than dismiss this work with the glib brush of "propaganda". Is there "spin" in the accounts? Sure, unavoidable, it is a product of human endeavor created within a political backdrop. Does that mean that it is worthless? Does that preclude you from weeding it out? Not in my estimation. Perhaps your hostile reaction is an emotional response to your beliefs about the conduct of our nation. Understandable, especially if you experience it strongly. But, i would encourage you to take a deep breath and see if there is anything here of value, that my inform your belief structure. This is really a remarkable document.

As to whether it is baseless, well I just don't know what to tell you. These observations are made "on the ground" and can be independently verified in the world press. Check it out, you may be surprised to find just how factual it is. That is not to say it is without errors. Errors of omission, and errors of selection and interpretation. But again, this is an unavoidable by-product of human endeavor.

I find this annual document to be one of the best efforts of our government. It provides invaluable insight in to the human conditions across the planet. It is put together in good faith for a noble purpose. Something we don't get access to in our every day lives. And more importantly, for me, it's focus is on the well-being and suffering of my fellow human beings. I can think of no greater moral imperative than to increase happiness and mitigate suffering. So, whatever contribution this work the State Department makes to that end, has my wholehearted support.

Just my opinion.
_____
rm


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## LasciviousXXX (Oct 12, 2004)

Thanx for the link Greg.


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## RcktS4 (Jan 13, 2005)

Roger Miller" has responded to this thread in a much more coherent and intelligible way than I would ever have the patience, or ability, to accomplish. Thanks.


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## etenpenny (Dec 12, 2005)

mosesbotbol said:


> Exactly.


good lord moses, 
you have gotten away from it in the last few weeks but you still have the propensity to turn a thread into a political rant quicker then you can say Bush


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## SeanGAR (Jul 9, 2004)

China has much worse human rights abuses than Cuba and they're on our most favored trading partners list whereas all trade with Cuba is banned. This sort of :BS from our government is pathetic. Oh, I admit it would be great if it was actually used for the purposes it is SUPPOSED to be used .... but the reality is that this report is a waste of time and showmanship ... unless of course countries with terrible human rights records like communist red china are treated properly.


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## ATLHARP (May 3, 2005)

mosesbotbol said:


> Someone else could swap for "Cuba" for "USA" and come up with similar results. That report is worthless, baseless propaganda.


Sorry but your statement is pure nonsense. It's sad to see that someone cannot tell the difference between a free nation which people are free to come and go from and a totalitarian hell-hole which jails, abuses, and kills those whom dare to dissent from it.

I really do not want to make this personal, and I have no personal gripe against you, but I know people who have their family killed or jailed because of Castro. There is absolutely no valid comparison between the As and Cuba and any attempt to do so is a disgrace to not only to reason, but also to the basic recognition of human rights which form the core of our being as human beings. Indeed many countries have horrible human rights records (China, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan), but to discount the report overall is intellectually dishonest.

ATL


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## Lopez (Mar 14, 2006)

SeanGAR said:


> China has much worse human rights abuses than Cuba and they're on our most favored trading partners list ....


I agree completely. The Chinese government is selling prisoner's kidneys while we're according them not only MFN status, but something close to a state visit last week.
:sb


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## bruceolee (Jun 26, 2005)

ATLHARP said:


> I know people who have their family killed or jailed because of Castro. There is absolutely no valid comparison between the As and Cuba and any attempt to do so is a disgrace to not only to reason, but also to the basic recognition of human rights which form the core of our being as human beings. Indeed many countries have horrible human rights records (China, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan), but to discount the report overall is intellectually dishonest.


:tpd: 
I couldn't have said it better myself


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

ATLHARP said:


> Sorry but your statement is pure nonsense. It's sad to see that someone cannot tell the difference between a free nation which people are free to come and go from and a totalitarian hell-hole which jails, abuses, and kills those whom dare to dissent from it.
> 
> ATL


If there's one family that could see some upside of Castro going is mine. There's an ex-Cuban aristocrat in my family and she has "bitter" feelings about Castro to say the least. Other relatives had successful clothing businesses in Cuba that had to move to DR and Haiti. I could use a beach vila she longs for. Every revolution is going to uproot, and ours was no different.

Not trying to be baiting, but the axe the US has to grind with Cuba is total lunacy. The Bay of Pigs was quite a long time ago, and we have no gripes about Cuba leasing us land, but we'd never violate the Geneva Conventions. Where was the embargo at Tiananmen Square, where was the invasion of China to promote freedom? It's all BS and a ploy. As soon as there is a presidential candidate storng enough to win without Florida's Electoral Points, the ban will be lifted.


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## ATLHARP (May 3, 2005)

mosesbotbol said:


> If there's one family that could see some upside of Castro going is mine. There's an ex-Cuban aristocrat in my family and she has "bitter" feelings about Castro to say the least. Other relatives had successful clothing businesses in Cuba that had to move to DR and Haiti. I could use a beach vila she longs for. Every revolution is going to uproot, and ours was no different.
> 
> Not trying to be baiting, but the axe the US has to grind with Cuba is total lunacy. The Bay of Pigs was quite a long time ago, and we have no gripes about Cuba leasing us land, but we'd never violate the Geneva Conventions. Where was the embargo at Tiananmen Square, where was the invasion of China to promote freedom? It's all BS and a ploy. As soon as there is a presidential candidate storng enough to win without Florida's Electoral Points, the ban will be lifted.


Yes ,but our revolution didn't confine those who wished to leave because they were unhappy with the revolution. They had a free choice where to live, many British citizens still loyal to the crown moved back to Britain freely.

Cuba is a prison and to make any comparisons to the US and Cuba is purely dishonest. To herald an invasion of China (a country which has nukes that can accurately target our cities thanks to the Clinton Administration) is purely suicidal. Is Tiananmen square worth full out nuclear war? The issue is far more complicated than just retaliating to every wrong the exact same way and Cuba is no different.

China, Turkmenistan and every other two bit dictator is beside the point. The issue is trying to tie in some absurd notion that there is any serious moral equivalency between Cuba and the U.S.

Also for the record terrorist should not and do not fall under the Geneva convention- they target civilians, they wear no identifiable uniform that distinguishes them to a particular government, and they themselves do not honor the convention under any circumstances. These 3 reasons are valid and justifiable grounds for withholding Geneva considerations from the war criminals whose only boldness tends to be when they are using women and children for human shields.

ATL


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## MoTheMan (May 24, 2003)

Oooff!

Heated discussion.
I'm staying out of this one . . . but I do enjoy the discourse going on here.


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## vic_c (Sep 7, 2005)

ATLHARP said:


> Also for the record terrorist should not and do not fall under the Geneva convention- they target civilians, they wear no identifiable uniform that distinguishes them to a particular government, and they themselves do not honor the convention under any circumstances. These 3 reasons are valid and justifiable grounds for withholding Geneva considerations from the war criminals whose only boldness tends to be when they are using women and children for human shields.
> 
> ATL


:tpd: 
For this reason we need to be proactive in fighting against any group of religious radicals from any country who would like nothing more than to kill every man, woman, and child in the US.
Unfortunately, especially since the 60's a great number of people in the United States have turned into a bunch of protesting, anti-US at all costs idiots. I say if you don't like the US and think we are the "bad guys" or blame everything on the current president then beat it and move to another country! 
President Bush or no President Bush Muslim extremists would still want to kill us either way. A lot of democraps love Clinton but he basically did nothing about the festering Middle East problem. For many people things were decent in the US ..stock market was good..etc, so no one cared about spending money on the military, or on intelligence. The extremist problems multiplied during the Clinton presidency...they just didn't boil over during his watch!


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

Each one of Cuba's "offenses" I can state a current American equivalent. It's just to show how worthless this report really is. Some of these infractions are just laughable. Let's see what the UN's report or a third party's report of Cuba vs. US these terms yields.


> Oh, really. You know people that have been imprisoned or killed for speaking out against the US government? There is always some hypocracy when dealing with politics, but to say we are no better than Cuba, come on. You sound like you have so much animosity towards our government and our country. Why don't you go live in Cuba or some other dicatatorship if you think there is no difference? I try not to get involved in these political discussions, but this is just complete nonsense Moses.


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## Nely (Nov 11, 2004)

Fredster said:


> Each one of Cuba's "offenses" I can state a current American equivalent. It's just to show how worthless this report really is. Some of these infractions are just laughable. Let's see what the UN's report or a third party's report of Cuba vs. US these terms yields.
> 
> 
> > Oh, really. You know people that have been imprisoned or killed for speaking out against the US government? There is always some hypocracy when dealing with politics, but to say we are no better than Cuba, come on. You sound like you have so much animosity towards our government and our country. Why don't you go live in Cuba or some other dicatatorship if you think there is no difference? I try not to get involved in these political discussions, but this is just complete nonsense Moses.
> ...


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

Why is it only a small percentage of Americans and no one else in the world that feels this way about Cuba? Is the rest of the world not as moral or something? Our best allies that share the same belief systems and value freedom as much as the USA, do not see a problem with Cuba. Many Americans are quite insular and can’t see the world from any other perspective than what they were taught. 

We have had plenty of injustice in the USA, ask any Native American, anyone put interment camps, forced castration, back of the bus segregation… I love this country, but see it for it is. Every country has its faults.


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## RcktS4 (Jan 13, 2005)

mosesbotbol said:


> Why is it only a small percentage of Americans and no one else in the world that feels this way about Cuba? Is the rest of the world not as moral or something? Our best allies that share the same belief systems and value freedom as much as the USA, do not see a problem with Cuba. Many Americans are quite insular and can't see the world from any other perspective than what they were taught.
> 
> We have had plenty of injustice in the USA, ask any Native American, anyone put interment camps, forced castration, back of the bus segregation&#8230; I love this country, but see it for it is. Every country has its faults.


I think your first statement is untrue. Amnesty International and HRW have identified cuban HR violations on a regular basis. America happens to be remarkably close to cuba, and the majority of the cuban emigrees wind up in the US, so wouldn't you expect the US to have the most discussion?

Sure the trade and travel embargo is outdated, and should be looked at. And obviously the US is also guilty (particularly in the recent past) of may problems. But because of this, you think we should give the rest of the world a pass?

I have a recourse for situations such as this: I always defer to those with experience. Cuban natives who have left cuba are remarkably consistent on THEIR take on the cuban government and human rights, and their claims are remarkably consistent with the above report.


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## dayplanner (Dec 11, 1997)

Do you know how ignorant it sounds when a response to a differing opinion is: If you don't like it, get out. 

The fact is, most of have no idea of the inner motivating factors that fuel this embargo. Personally, I cannot reconcile how we can deal diplomatically with numerous countries like China, who's civil rights policies are non-existent, yet we have this silly embargo against Cuba.

Here's something you are not going to like -

Our economic policies against Cuba, are as oppressive of Cubans, if not more oppressive, than Castro himself.

And before one of you monkeys start acting like Merle Haggard and 'tell me to love it or leave', open your eyes and form your own opinion instead of regurgatating something you heard someone else say. I'm staying, so get used to it.


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## RcktS4 (Jan 13, 2005)

slowhand said:


> Do you know how ignorant it sounds when a response to a differing opinion is: If you don't like it, get out.
> 
> The fact is, most of have no idea of the inner motivating factors that fuel this embargo. Personally, I cannot reconcile how we can deal diplomatically with numerous countries like China, who's civil rights policies are non-existent, yet we have this silly embargo against Cuba.
> 
> ...


Some good points here. But does this do away with the items in this report?

China is rife with HR violations. we trade with them because we don't have the luxury of not trading with them. Pure and simple. Does this mean we should ignore it from cuba?

Our economic policies are indeed a remarkable hardship on the cuban people. Personally, I'd vote to end the embargo post-haste for this reason. But we have a large cuban-american lobby that feels otherwise, and through the (albeit extremely flawed at times) democratic process they have pressured it to stay in place. Again - does this mean we are obliged to ignore HR violations.

To say that there are no HR violations in cuba is insane. They come up on this board largely because a lot of us have some acillary interests in Cuba.

You've given all the reasons we shoul give a pass on cuba's behavior. I say there is NO REASON we should give Castro's regime a pass, any more than I believe we should give Bush admin a pass on the Gitmo detainees, or the Chinese government a pass on their HR and civil rights issues.

Why keep pointing elsewhere to discredit the PURPOSE of the report?


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## TideRoll (Nov 7, 2005)

mosesbotbol said:


> Someone else could swap for "Cuba" for "USA" and come up with similar results. That report is worthless, baseless propaganda.


Horsesh**. Moral relativism is bunk, plain and simple.


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

RcktS4 said:


> Some good points here. But does this do away with the items in this report?
> 
> China is rife with HR violations. we trade with them because we don't have the luxury of not trading with them. Pure and simple. Does this mean we should ignore it from cuba?
> 
> To say that there are no HR violations in cuba is insane. They come up on this board largely because a lot of us have some acillary interests in Cuba.


No one said there was no HR violations in Cuba, just that the report could switch country names for HR violations such as, "discrimination against persons of African descent", "denial of peaceful assembly and association", "frequent harassment of political opponents by government-recruited mobs", and "beatings and abuse of detainees and prisoners".

You get my point....


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## dayplanner (Dec 11, 1997)

RcktS4 said:


> Some good points here. But does this do away with the items in this report?
> 
> China is rife with HR violations. we trade with them because we don't have the luxury of not trading with them. Pure and simple. Does this mean we should ignore it from cuba?
> 
> ...


I would like to point out that nowhere did I discredit the report. My original post merely pointed out the fact that I felt people were misreading Moses' post. I thought he was pointing out the flaw in the basis of the report not the flaw in our policies towards Cuba. The languaged used is generic and can be applied to anyone you chose.

Of course there are 'HR violations' in Cuba. Their record is despicable. I would never dream of saying otherwise.


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## RcktS4 (Jan 13, 2005)

mosesbotbol said:


> No one said there was no HR violations in Cuba, just that the report could switch country names for HR violations such as, "discrimination against persons of African descent", "denial of peaceful assembly and association", "frequent harassment of political opponents by government-recruited mobs", and "beatings and abuse of detainees and prisoners".
> 
> You get my point....


I get, and even agree with, your point here. but you also said the report was worthless, baseless propoganda. That, i think, was where I begged to differ.

There is also the matter of 'degree' - and in that respect I think these things are the exception in the US, whereas in Cuba they are the rule. This matters to me.


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## Nely (Nov 11, 2004)

To think that the US embargo is oppressing the economy in Cuba is crazy. Ask any Canadian about his vacation to Cuba.
The only oppressor is Fidel, and I'm not just regurgitating, I live through this, when my friends and family lose their life in the ocean, trying to achieve what many here take for granted.


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

slowhand said:


> Do you know how ignorant it sounds when a response to a differing opinion is: If you don't like it, get out.
> 
> The fact is, most of have no idea of the inner motivating factors that fuel this embargo. Personally, I cannot reconcile how we can deal diplomatically with numerous countries like China, who's civil rights policies are non-existent, yet we have this silly embargo against Cuba.
> 
> ...


First of all I did not say "if you don't like it get out." What I said was placed in question form. I asked "if there is no difference between the US and Cuba why not live there instead of here?" A valid question if there is no difference.

As far as the embargo goes, it is outdated. I won't argue that. I never said the US doesn't have some outdated policies or hypocracy. That being said I still love my Country. I would never make a crazy statement that we have as many rights violations as Cuba. I don't know about the Embargo causing the Cuban people more suffering than Castro either. I think most Cubans would wholeheartedly disagree with you. I do think that long term opening it up may speed in the process of Cuba becoming Democratic someday. Freedom and Democracy are contageous. It may also just aid in Castros pockets getting fuller and the Cuban people not seeing any benefit. Who knows for sure. I'm not a political analyst.

If I'm a monkey, you're a left-wing nutcase.


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## bpegler (Mar 30, 2006)

Nely said:


> To think that the US embargo is oppressing the economy in Cuba is crazy. Ask any Canadian about his vacation to Cuba.
> The only oppressor is Fidel, and I'm not just regurgitating, I live through this, when my friends and family lose their life in the ocean, trying to achieve what many here take for granted.


I am certain that having a trade embrgo with the wealthiest nation in the world (who happens to be only 70 miles or so away) must hurt Cuba's economy. After all, that is the purpose of embargos. However, there seems a huge difference to me disagreeing with this approach (which I happen to) and not seeing Casto's regime for the cruel opressor that it is. Many of us simply think that there must be a more effective way of encoraging regime change than through cutting off trade.

By the way, we don't have to leave the US to change governments. We can simply vote. Look at how many Presidents we have had while Castro maintains dictatorial powers over Cuba.


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## etenpenny (Dec 12, 2005)

mosesbotbol said:


> Why is it only a small percentage of Americans and no one else in the world that feels this way about Cuba?


Are you saying that the only things that are right are the things agreed on by the majority of the world???
Do we need the UN to dictate what countries we deal with, do we need them to tell us what to think about others?



mosesbotbol said:


> Many Americans are quite insular and can't see the world from any other perspective than what they were taught.


why is it that only people that disagree with YOUR view of America are all the sudden insular?
what Ive learned about america might be considered insular, but equally your talking points that your internalize and believe can be considered just as closed minded


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## etenpenny (Dec 12, 2005)

http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showthread.php?t=19987&page=2&highlight=cuba



Blueface said:


> mosesbotbol said:
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted by mosesbotbol
> ...


I just wanted to reiterate what a much more knowlegeable and articulate fellow brother stated the last time you tried to downplay the situation in cuba

to compare the situation in cuba to the US is laughable, I hope you can see this


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## etenpenny (Dec 12, 2005)

RcktS4 said:


> China is rife with HR violations. we trade with them because we don't have the luxury of not trading with them. Pure and simple.


agreed, your completly right


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

etenpenny said:


> what Ive learned about america might be considered insular, but equally your talking points that your internalize and believe can be considered just as closed minded


You've never heard the term "ugly american" used abroad? I wonder how that came about? I deal with a lot of international people, and there's a lot of ther perspectives than ours that are as well thought out and unbiased as can be. The insular statement is about our views in general, not just about Cuba. Most Americans don't even know what the capital of Canada is, forget talking confidently on diplomacy matters of Cuba.

Even our own president didn't know what PEI stood for at a Canadian conference.


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## jgros001 (Jun 14, 2005)

mosesbotbol said:


> You've never heard the term "ugly american" used abroad? I wonder how that came about? I deal with a lot of international people, and there's a lot of ther perspectives than ours that are as well thought out and unbiased as can be. The insular statement is about our views in general, not just about Cuba. Most Americans don't even know what the capital of Canada is, forget talking confidently on diplomacy matters of Cuba.
> 
> Even our own president didn't know what PEI stood for at a Canadian conference.


Really getting tired of the Americans are idiots line.


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## bpegler (Mar 30, 2006)

jgros001 said:


> Really getting tired of the Americans are idiots line.


:tpd:


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## etenpenny (Dec 12, 2005)

is it a requirement to be president that you must know what PEI stands for in another country?

Oh Im sorry I forgot, bush is just a moron, dont doubt it, dont ask questions :BS


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## Ninja Vanish (Apr 7, 2005)

What's PEI? 

Probable Extra Innings?
Proportionate Escalator Incline?
Prudent Engineering Intern?
Pregnant Employee Incident?
Plausible Egg Involvment?

Somebody wanna throw me a bone here?


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## dayplanner (Dec 11, 1997)

Fredster said:


> If I'm a monkey, you're a left-wing nutcase.


Yeah, ok. Talk about a guy talking out his ass.

Have you read anything here that shows that I support Cuba's policies? If you do, point it out and I'll backtrack and apologize. I would be ashamed to say anything like that. I've made two points in this thread:

1 - The original statement was misunderstood and that Moses was only referring to the report.

2 - The embargo is not working and that it does more harm than good and we should figure something else out.

If that is left-wing, uh ok. I think you need to work on your reading comprehension.


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

slowhand said:


> Yeah, ok. Talk about a guy talking out his ass.
> 
> Have you read anything here that shows that I support Cuba's policies? If you do, point it out and I'll backtrack and apologize. I would be ashamed to say anything like that. I've made two points in this thread:
> 
> ...


Moses said we are no different than Cuba, and you can plug the US into any of the infractions made by Cuba. We jail or kill people for political views? How am I misunderstanding? Everytime I turn around it's another crazy left-wing comment from him about how this country is so horrible. You are defending his comments, but you're not left-wing? The only sensible thing you said I agree with is the "Embargo is not working". No shit. It's going on 50 years and no change with Castros regime. What that has to do with comparing us to Cuba I have no idea.


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## dayplanner (Dec 11, 1997)

Fredster said:


> Everytime I turn around it's another crazy left-wing comment from him about how this country is so horrible. You are defending his comments, but you're not left-wing?


See, that is why I mentioned the reading compehension. I haven't agreed or defended anything he has said regarding Cuba. I did point out that I felt that people were misinterpreting his FIRST post. He has said some weird things after that but in his FIRST post, he was clearly referring to the fact that the report itself could be directed at any country and really isn't worth the paper it is printed on.


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

jgros001 said:


> Really getting tired of the Americans are idiots line.


You and me both.


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## etenpenny (Dec 12, 2005)

Im starting to think that some people just like communism more the capitalistic government and society
maybe that explains why people support the cuban government (its not all that bad)
of course they are wrong


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## etenpenny (Dec 12, 2005)

Ninja Vanish said:


> What's PEI?
> 
> Probable Extra Innings?
> Proportionate Escalator Incline?
> ...


I googled it and I think its prince edwards island

I still dont know why the president of the UNITED STATES should know that right off the top of his head though 
maybe Im wrong about the meaning of PEI though


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## dayplanner (Dec 11, 1997)

Ninja Vanish said:


> What's PEI?
> 
> Probable Extra Innings?
> Proportionate Escalator Incline?
> ...


Maybe I'll show my ignorance here too, but I think PEI stands for Prince Edward Island. Why he thinks anyone outside of the are should know that, I don't know. I only know 'cause I dated a girl from there.

She was great while it lasted :dr


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## dayplanner (Dec 11, 1997)

etenpenny said:


> I googled it and I think its prince edwards island
> 
> I still dont know why the president of the UNITED STATES should know that right off the top of his head though
> maybe Im wrong about the meaning of PEI though


Damn you. I must learn to refresh more often.


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## Ninja Vanish (Apr 7, 2005)

I guess that would be kind of like me saying something about "The Ham" and expecting people to get it? Or telling someone I'm headed down to "The Gump". Or expecting someone to understand what I mean when I say I'm gonna R-U-N-N-O-F-T. 

Ok ya'll get serious again. We must have more arguments! Go!


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## TideRoll (Nov 7, 2005)

Ninja Vanish said:


> I guess that would be kind of like me saying something about "The Ham" and expecting people to get it? Or telling someone I'm headed down to "The Gump". Or expecting someone to understand what I mean when I say I'm gonna R-U-N-N-O-F-T.
> 
> Ok ya'll get serious again. We must have more arguments! Go!


I have a hard time taking this thread seriously anyway. I'm calling "bullsh**" and moving on to a thread that is not basically a retread of an argument that was thoroughly lost the last time it was made.


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## dayplanner (Dec 11, 1997)

RcktS4 said:


> Roger Miller" has responded to this thread in a much more coherent and intelligible way than I would ever have the patience, or ability, to accomplish. Thanks.


Exactamundo! :tpd:



SeanGAR said:


> China has much worse human rights abuses than Cuba and they're on our most favored trading partners list whereas all trade with Cuba is banned. This sort of :BS from our government is pathetic. Oh, I admit it would be great if it was actually used for the purposes it is SUPPOSED to be used .... but the reality is that this report is a waste of time and showmanship ... unless of course countries with terrible human rights records like communist red china are treated properly.


Gee your not talking about those nice people that are going to host the Olympics are you??? Man.... that is a real button pusher... China is a third wold country with ghetto conditions all over and one of the most repressive governments anywhere but since they have cranked up the manufacturing ($$$) and military (oh sh!t look out and $$$)... the tail is wagging the dog BIG TIME. Of course everyone is scared of them because that tail is going to turn into a VERY BIG dog itself one day. All of that will produce a massive freezing "cold war" someday.... 



mosesbotbol said:


> You've never heard the term "ugly american" used abroad? I wonder how that came about? I deal with a lot of international people, and there's a lot of ther perspectives than ours that are as well thought out and unbiased as can be. The insular statement is about our views in general, not just about Cuba. Most Americans don't even know what the capital of Canada is, forget talking confidently on diplomacy matters of Cuba.
> 
> Even our own president didn't know what PEI stood for at a Canadian conference.


What a croc... throughout this thread you have shown your dislike and disrespect for this country... Like Fred was saying... what keeps you here?

Another thing... who gives a *&%&^$#$% what some other country says about Americans? I love it here. Do you ever hear what everyone says about a lot of the countries that say "ugly Americans"???

Tell you right now... if a frenchy says "ugly American" I would laugh my ass off and ask him how that big BBQ is coming over there.

OR

Your comments about ugly Americans are just a bunch of useless propaganda and could be said about any other country (sound familiar?)

Castro and his government? *BAD*

Our political axe to grind with Cuba *BAD*

Cubans living conditions *BAD*

Your attitude toward the country that allows the freedom to to put it down the way you do (for which if you did it in Cuba you would be locked up BIG TIME) *BAD*

:2


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## Blueface (May 28, 2005)

Boy I am glad I am out of town, in Chicago, with limited internet access.

First of all, Etenpenny, thanks much for bringing up that prior post of mine. I truly appreciate it.

ATLHARP, well spoken my friend.

Mosesbotbol, it is quite difficult to remain professional when reading the crap you have written here and have previously written on this subject. Don't know if inciting fellow Cuban BOTLs is your goal but if it is, congratulations, you have accomplished it. 

Unlike you, I respect your opinion but am compelled to tell you it is not worth the paper it is written on. Here is my offer to you: I volunteer to provide you with 5 years worth of Habanos, as many as you can smoke. In addition, I will pay for your one way plane ticket to that land whose political system you seem to know so well and defend so much. Turn in your passport on the way there so there is no return. Your trip is on me. Go freaking rot over there for a few years and then see if you can find some internet access and if the government will allow you to post your experiences here on CS. See if you will be allowed to post your cries for help to get you the heck out of there.

You truly exemplify the old saying that it is best to remain quiet and be thought a fool then to speak and prove yourself so. Your thoughts are ignorant and come from complete lack of any experience as you are not Cuban and you never lived in Cuba. On the other hand, I am and I did.


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

Blueface said:


> You truly exemplify the old saying that it is best to remain quiet and be thought a fool then to speak and prove yourself so. Your thoughts are ignorant and come from complete lack of any experience as you are not Cuban and you never lived in Cuba. On the other hand, I am and I did.


As bad as Cuba is, do you think it's worse than Haiti? There's dozens nations that we have trade with that I wouldn't wish anyone I know moving there, but that is not the point of this thread. As far our political process and the article cited in the beginning of thread, I simply stated that we do and/or have done the same violations as Cuba does. I did not mention how often it happens here vs. there. The US's goal for democracy in Cuba is not genuine. US have overthrown democratic regimes in Central America to install Communists ones, so democracy in and of its self is not the sole goal of US diplomacy by historical example.

Our treatment towards Cuba I think is on par of Israel's treatment of Palestinians, and the world tends to think the same.

http://www.iacenter.org/Cuba/cuba_embargo.htm


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## etenpenny (Dec 12, 2005)

moses are you now saying that israel is wrong in its stance against the PLO and Hamas?


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## Ninja Vanish (Apr 7, 2005)

mosesbotbol said:


> As bad as Cuba is, do you think it's worse than Haiti? There's dozens nations that we have trade with that I wouldn't wish anyone I know moving there, but that is not the point of this thread. As far our political process and the article cited in the beginning of thread, I simply stated that we do and/or have done the same violations as Cuba does. I did not mention how often it happens here vs. there. The US's goal for democracy in Cuba is not genuine. US have overthrown democratic regimes in Central America to install Communists ones, so democracy in and of its self is not the sole goal of US diplomacy by historical example.
> 
> Our treatment towards Cuba I think is on par of Israel's treatment of Palestinians, and the world tends to think the same.
> 
> http://www.iacenter.org/Cuba/cuba_embargo.htm


Hmmm, I was staying out of this, only interjecting my comedic genius from time to time in order to keep the laughter going but I take offense at the notion that you say the US does or has done the same things as Cuba. First of all, the primary difference between when the US does something wrong is that we are able to hold our government accountable through free elections and we do so. Cubans do not have that right. We also have free media in the US to expose corruption and infrom the citizens of our nation as to what our government is up to, thus again, holding our leaders accountable for their actions. Cuba does not. It's not enough for you to simply say that we do the same things, you must give some examples and the problem with that argument is that for every one example of a violation of human rights you cite to me on behalf of the US, I could cite 100 on Cuba's part... and that is'nt even taking into account the number of times that things happen in Cuba that are not even documented. (And don't say anything about the stuff that we do that "Isn't documented" because they don't make the difference up, Cuba is still behind by far and you know it) Also, the problem with you likening our situation with Cuba to the situation with Israel and Palestine makes no logical sense whatsoever. It is quite obviously not even remotely close to the same situation. I don't see Cubans coming into our cities and blowing people up and I don't see american tanks rolling through the streets of Havana in an attempt to bring order to chaos. They just want their country _back_, where they have the freedom to choose. To choose their religion, their job, to own land, their political beliefs and so on. I don't know if you resent the US or if you simply resent the president or if it something else. I hope it is none of those, but if you resent the US, perhaps you should go take a walk by a veterans of foreign wars meeting one day and talk to some of the people who fought and bled for freedom... maybe not even their own freedom or freedom for the US in some cases. If you resent our president then you need to stop projecting that resentment onto our nation as a whole and focus it more on HIS policies. I'm not trying to convince you to see things my way, but I am asking you to stop cutting my country down and insenuating that we are not a good country and making claims that we do the same bad things as bad countries like Cuba. What sets us apart are the good things that we do that other countries do not. When was the last time Cuba liberated a nation (two nations, actually) from totalitarian and oppresive governments? When was the last time Cuba did ANYTHING to help fund AIDS research for Africa, or send food to starving nations like Ethiopia, or send troops with supplies to and nation devestated by a tsunami? I could keep going... and THAT is what makes that paper worth reading because there is nothing positive or good about Cuba on there. Because one the very few good things that comes out of Cuba (no offense to those of Cuban descent) are Bolivar Belicosos Finos and as good as they are, they have never made a difference in anyone's life.


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

etenpenny said:


> moses are you now saying that israel is wrong in its stance against the PLO and Hamas?


No, just saying that people should look at the results of UN votes on Cuba and Israeli issues. Every country's "coming to age" has been written in suffering and blood; France, Israel, Lebanon, Cuba, and USA is no exception, but we (as the world) should accept that there is more than one form of governmental rule, and in comparason to their neighbors, Cuba has done a lot of things well. Cuba has a higher literacy rate than US, the highest doctor to patient ratio in the world. Sure they have the downfalls too, but where doesn't?

It may not make sense to you, and that is for you to figure out. Talk to a European, talk to a Southeast Asian, talk to a South American; they'll all give you a different point of view; different than yours.


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## Blueface (May 28, 2005)

mosesbotbol said:


> Cuba has a higher literacy rate than US, the highest doctor to patient ratio in the world. Sure they have the downfalls too, but where doesn't?


Which one should I attempt to tackle first out of these three ignorant statements?

Cuba has a higher literacy rate than US
Sure may have. How many billionaires and millionaires do we have in the US? How many does Cuba have (0 would be a good answer unless you want to include Fidel in the count). My cousin is a Cuban trained doctor who right now works as a doctor's assistant to live in the US. I am sure her literacy helps her significantly.

The highest doctor to patient ratio in the world
F...ing wonderful observation. How about if they had medicine to treat their patiients with? Wouldn't that be a pisser? Ask any Cuban in the US how many annual dollars they spend in sending medicines to Cuba as they don't exist there. Thought I should add, doctors earn $15 per month and jeans cost $50 to give you an idea of what that can buy you.

Sure they have downfalls too, but where doesn't
You are so correct except in America, I can say you are full of chit and should give up this subject. I can say that to you, print it, and not give a darn if you are Fidel Castro. Try that in Cuba and then be prepared to say hello to a bunch of rifles firing at you a$$.

Seriously, give this ignorance up and move on to something you know better and can make more logical comments on. STOP trying to explain an accident to eye witness. I, along with a few other BOTLs on this forum, lived through the tyranny of that dictatorship. We know the pain of leaving our homeland, never to see it again. The pain of leaving family members behind. The pain of children being for ever separated from parents and brothers and sisters. The pain of being jailed and executed for not believing in the system and wanting to change it. YOU don't know that pain. Therefore, PLEASE move on to another subject as you are now beyond being f...ing offensive!

P.S.
To assist in eliminating some more ignorance, guess what the latest craze in Cuba is in the wonderful medical community you know so well? Teeth are being extracted in cold blood. There are no anesthetics. Isn't that practically the dark ages? Oh, I forgot, that is right, they have a greater ratio of doctors to patients than we do.


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## dayplanner (Dec 11, 1997)

mosesbotbol said:


> As bad as Cuba is, do you think it's worse than Haiti? There's dozens nations that we have trade with that I wouldn't wish anyone I know moving there, but that is not the point of this thread. As far our political process and the article cited in the beginning of thread, I simply stated that we do and/or have done the same violations as Cuba does. I did not mention how often it happens here vs. there. The US's goal for democracy in Cuba is not genuine. US have overthrown democratic regimes in Central America to install Communists ones, so democracy in and of its self is not the sole goal of US diplomacy by historical example.
> 
> Our treatment towards Cuba I think is on par of Israel's treatment of Palestinians, and the world tends to think the same.
> 
> http://www.iacenter.org/Cuba/cuba_embargo.htm


I retract competely, any support or defense of you in this thread I may have made.

I say this in the kindest way: You sir, are a knothead.


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