# Positive ventilation vs. passive (speed up aging process)



## Gdaddy (Sep 20, 2012)

I've read many times that the aging process of cigars takes a long time because of the minimal ventilation inside the humidor and especially inside the cigar itself. By letting them rest they slowly degas ammonia. As we know, ammonia is a byproduct of fermenting tobacco. New oxygen slowly enters the stagnant interior of the cigar. Isn't it oxygen that helps break down the plant matter causing the degassing of ammonia to occur? Cigars left to age tightly sealed in plastic will wallow in this gas and eventually ruin them if not exposed to fresh air. It is a recommended practice to introduce fresh air every so often by opening the door of the humidor. Once this air is introduced it takes time for it to find it's way into the cigar itself. All a very SLOW process to happen naturally.

My question would be... what would happen if the process was aided by introducing air/oxygen actively instead of the passively? Instead of letting air into the humidor by simply opening the door but rather the humidor was to undergo a reduction in atmospheric pressure (vacuum) causing the entire box AND the cigars inside the box to have a portion of air/ammonia drawn out of them and then immediately replaced with fresh air by opening the valve. Any amount of negative pressure would draw air/gas from the cigar so I don't believe it would take a drastic reduction in pressure to accomplish air movement inside the cigar. I'm not talking about a severe decompression and would probably not be a good thing as it really isn't necessary. A small amount of introduced air would be quite adequate and cause the cigars to 'breathe' instead of laying there stagnant. Working like an artificial lung.

I understand that the natural occurring fermentation must be allowed to occur naturally but by aiding the process with fresh oxygen would seem to be a good thing. After all that's why we open the door to the humidor isn't it? Instead of opening the door of the humidor to let air in you give a few pumps with a hand pump, release the valve and your done. It would seem to put the fresh air where it's needed much faster.

Thoughts?


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## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

Sure, why not? Sounds like a lot of work for at best, moderate gain, but in the end, it can't hurt anything and the science seems sound enough. Give it a shot (pun).


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## Gdaddy (Sep 20, 2012)

Cigar 'Burping' I call it. (Expelling gas).

I have an Emerson wineador and already has a hole for the drain plug. It seems to be air tight with a good seal on the door. All I have to do is install an adapter. I'll get a hand pump from Harbor freight and I'm ready to go. It has a vacuum gauge on it so I can see the results. 

My only concern is it will hurt the fan in the winecooler. I won't be pulling any deep pressure. Not sure if it would blow out oil from sealed bearings or something like that.


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## exprime8 (May 16, 2011)

One question... Why are you in such a hurry to speed up the aging process??? This hobby takes time and a lot of patience. Keep buying cigars and in no time youll have nicely aged cigars...


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## socalocmatt (Dec 22, 2010)

I've thought of the same concept before. What's stopped me in my thoughts was that active air exchange would only effect the wrapper since the filler and binder still has equal air exchange rate regardless of active or passive air exchange. 

I always invissioned a 'humidor' with different chambers to purify and humidify the air and then every X minutes/hours the air chambers would exchange the air. Yea, sometimes I have the mind of a mad scientist.


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## US2China (Sep 18, 2012)

Gdaddy said:


> Cigar 'Burping' I call it. (Expelling gas).
> 
> I have an Emerson wineador and already has a hole for the drain plug. It seems to be air tight with a good seal on the door. All I have to do is install an adapter. I'll get a hand pump from Harbor freight and I'm ready to go. It has a vacuum gauge on it so I can see the results.
> 
> My only concern is it will hurt the fan in the winecooler. I won't be pulling any deep pressure. Not sure if it would blow out oil from sealed bearings or something like that.


Unplug it, and the fan will not be moving. If you are going to go through the trouble, why not get an oxygen tank so you can replace the air with pure o2?

You could also get a food saver container and vacuum out the air that way.


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## Gdaddy (Sep 20, 2012)

If there are sealed bearings the negative pressure could pop the seals causing the oil to leak out and ruin the fan.

You could do pure oxygen not sure if it's worth the trouble. 

A food saver would be in a different environment as far as both temperature and humidity. If I degas the humidor once a week the humidity and temperature would stabilize quickly back to normal.


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## Gdaddy (Sep 20, 2012)

socalocmatt said:


> I've thought of the same concept before. What's stopped me in my thoughts was that active air exchange would only effect the wrapper since the filler and binder still has equal air exchange rate regardless of active or passive air exchange.


I don't understand.

The air would exit the cigar from the path of least resistance which would be the open end. Air flows freely through there. I don't think the wrapper would stop the air flow unless the cigar is closed on both ends.


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## socalocmatt (Dec 22, 2010)

Gdaddy said:


> I don't understand.
> 
> The air would exit the cigar from the path of least resistance which would be the open end. Air flows freely through there. I don't think the wrapper would stop the air flow unless the cigar is closed on both ends.


Air doesn't flow freely in and out of the foot unless the cigar was rolled crazy loose. Yes, the path of least resistance would be the foot but (I would think) that air exchange in and out of a cigar wouldn't be much better than the air exchange of a humidor. Especially if you open it to grab a cigar now and again. But like I said before, I still dream of an awesome futuristic humi with chambers that open and close to speed air exchange. Who knows. Maybe the air in and out of a cigar moves more freely then I think.


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## Johnpaul (Aug 15, 2011)

The fans used inside most wine fridges are not using sealed bearings and even if they were I doubt you would be pulling enough of a vacuum to make a difference. If you were looking for a proof of concept I think James had a good idea on using a food saver container. You could turn one of those into a humijar and pull and release vacuum at will.

That being said I suspect that it would not work. If the goal is to speed up the release of ammonia, I believe you vacuum, assuming it worked, would only help release any ammonia already expelled by the leaves. I believe the majority of ammonia on "sick" cigars are actually trapping inside the leaves themselves. It is my understanding that ammonia is highly volatile and as such once it works its way out of the leaf it quickly turns into gas and is expelled by opening your humi to allow for air exchange every once and a while.

When caring for cigars patience is key and filled with rewards.


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## Gdaddy (Sep 20, 2012)

Johnpaul said:


> The fans used inside most wine fridges are not using sealed bearings and even if they were I doubt you would be pulling enough of a vacuum to make a difference. If you were looking for a proof of concept I think James had a good idea on using a food saver container. You could turn one of those into a humijar and pull and release vacuum at will.
> 
> That being said I suspect that it would not work. If the goal is to speed up the release of ammonia, I believe you vacuum, assuming it worked, would only help release any ammonia already expelled by the leaves. I believe the majority of ammonia on "sick" cigars are actually trapping inside the leaves themselves. It is my understanding that ammonia is highly volatile and as such once it works its way out of the leaf it quickly turns into gas and is expelled by opening your humi to allow for air exchange every once and a while.
> 
> When caring for cigars patience is key and filled with rewards.


Thanks for the info on the fans. I had no idea what they used.

The problem with the food saver is that you would be 'burping' the cigar with unknown/less than ideal humidity air. Another problem would be...you'd have to take cigars out of the humidor place them in the food saver then place them back into the humidor. Constantly moving them around as they couldn't be permanently stored in the food saver.


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## Johnpaul (Aug 15, 2011)

Gdaddy said:


> The problem with the food saver is that you would be 'burping' the cigar with unknown/less than ideal humidity air. Another problem would be...you'd have to take cigars out of the humidor place them in the food saver then place them back into the humidor. Constantly moving them around as they couldn't be permanently stored in the food saver.


What you are looking for is a proof of concept. Personally I would not want to screw around with a humidor full of cigar and risk any damage to them. You would make the food saver the humidor complete with humidifying device so it can recover after you pull a vacuum and the cigars don't get moved until you smoke them. As for the quality of the air you put back into it that would just be the ambient air which is the same as your humidor gets every time you open it. Like I said I don't think it would work but if I was going to test it that is the way I would do it.

Also when I say food saver I mean the jars not the bags. The bags crush the cigars so I would not recommend that. I mean something like these...


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## Gdaddy (Sep 20, 2012)

Proof of concept...you're right.

I can pick up a small hand pump from Harbor freight that will do the job for $15. It can pull some pretty good pressure.

View attachment 72019


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## E Dogg (Mar 23, 2011)

socalocmatt said:


> I've thought of the same concept before. What's stopped me in my thoughts was that active air exchange would only effect the wrapper since the filler and binder still has equal air exchange rate regardless of active or passive air exchange.
> 
> I always invissioned a 'humidor' with different chambers to purify and humidify the air and then every X minutes/hours the air chambers would exchange the air. Yea, sometimes I have the mind of a mad scientist.


I can make you one :lol:

No seriously.... :smoke:


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## Gdaddy (Sep 20, 2012)

Can drill and install a fitting in an acrylic lid from Target.


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## chris1360 (Mar 15, 2012)

Johnpaul said:


> What you are looking for is a proof of concept. Personally I would not want to screw around with a humidor full of cigar and risk any damage to them. You would make the food saver the humidor complete with humidifying device so it can recover after you pull a vacuum and the cigars don't get moved until you smoke them. As for the quality of the air you put back into it that would just be the ambient air which is the same as your humidor gets every time you open it. Like I said I don't think it would work but if I was going to test it that is the way I would do it.
> 
> Also when I say food saver I mean the jars not the bags. The bags crush the cigars so I would not recommend that. I mean something like these...


Do you think, if I were to foodsaver 10 cigars that I really like, in a jar. I could keep them for 10 or more years. Then open them after said time, re introduce to humidity levels, and they would be just as good as they were when I started? Just curious because I have some rare and HTF stuff that is not made anymore. I would like to keep them for 10 or more years but I know they will loose all flavor, and strength in that time. So would food savor be able to preserve cigars that long, and extend the aging process?


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## tmmedic20 (Oct 30, 2011)

Gdaddy said:


> After all that's why we open the door to the humidor isn't it?
> 
> Thoughts?


Nope, we open them to get cigars out to smoke 

Sounds like a neat idea though, kinda interested to see how it all ends up..

Good luck!


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## sdlaird (Mar 15, 2011)

(DISCLAIMER -- UNSCIENTIFIC POST TO FOLLOW)

Just a thought here. I have always thought of the aging process as one that you did not want to rush. Think of a prime rib that you want to cook to medium. You can put it in an oven at 650 degrees and get it to medium faster, but in the process, you completely ruin the outside of the steak because you cooked it too fast, making the exterior rubbery and burnt. Now think of slow cooking it for 8 hours at 300 degrees (250, whatever) and now you have a nice tender, evenly cooked prime rib to enjoy.

I know we all want our cigars to get to that perfect stage right away, but I would think that there are adverse consequences. maybe not, but it warrants consideration. 

Please discuss!!


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## Johnpaul (Aug 15, 2011)

chris1360 said:


> Do you think, if I were to foodsaver 10 cigars that I really like, in a jar. I could keep them for 10 or more years. Then open them after said time, re introduce to humidity levels, and they would be just as good as they were when I started? Just curious because I have some rare and HTF stuff that is not made anymore. I would like to keep them for 10 or more years but I know they will loose all flavor, and strength in that time. So would food savor be able to preserve cigars that long, and extend the aging process?


I have no idea but I suspect not. I believe that way the vacuum containers work with food is that by pulling most of the air out you slow down the oxidizing process and retard the growth of aerobic bacteria. I don't think those are things that normally affect cigars. It would seem that the vacuum over a long period of time may have major impacts on the humidity of the cigar (potential bad risk)

If I was going to try to preserve a cigar in a stable state for an extended period of time I would find the most air tight container I could and seal it under normal air pressure and store in a dark cool place. I would suspect that the lack of fresh oxygen would keep the cigars in a similar state. Then again I have nothing to back these suppositions up with.


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## asmartbull (Aug 16, 2009)

On a side note I have been able to smoke the same "box code" cigar with 
10 yrs on them.
1 stored in box
1 stored in an open drawer
Both were stored in the same cooler
The cigar in the SLB was TONS better.
Given this topic is in the NC section, I fail to see how this really helps.

That said, I am curious at to the results should you come up with a process

edit: I should probably say that I have several boxes wrapped in wax-paper
to slow the process....


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## efletch (Oct 3, 2012)

My head hurts. This seems like a cool idea, but being lazy sitting in the humi they will be. Awesome creative idea though.


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## Gdaddy (Sep 20, 2012)

I'm in full agreement that the aging process is very important. However, it might be fair to say that the way we age cigars is hindering that process from naturally occurring. Aging is a complex process involving oxidation, the blending of essential oils and other chemical changes. The way the tobacco gets rolled in a tight wad would appear to be the method you'd use for preventing air from getting inside. It would seem this is opposite of what you want. The whole aging process evolves around oxygen. The by product is ammonia and not something to linger inside the cigar.

A process of 'positive ventilation' may be very helpful especially for 'green' cigars.

‘Green cigars,’ those that have been brought to market with no aging by the manufacturer and need to go through a short-term maturation process for 3-4 weeks. This allows the blending of filler leaves to occur and the taste to stabilize. After about a month, the stogies may be ready to go. Why does the cigar need 3 to 4 weeks? What actually happens during that time that improves the cigar? The answer appears to be the elimination and completion of the ammonia build up caused by the rolling process when the tobacco was wet down. Why not help get the oxygen inside the cigar where it's needed?

I have no idea if positive ventilation would do anything but the concept seems valid as your giving more of what the tobacco naturally wants in order to age.


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## asmartbull (Aug 16, 2009)

I guess it all depends on your desired outcome
The English have this down to a science and they take the opposite approach.
A freshly rolled cigar can take 2 yrs for get through their 1st fermentation process.

I can only think that if manufacturers thought that more air was better, they wouldn's try so hard
try to restrict it in their boxes..

I just I just don't know anyone who buy NC's to age ( Opus, Anejo exempt)

While I don't think you can ignore that air exchange helps things along, I question
" at what price"...


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## Cigar Noob (May 22, 2011)

Why not just get an aquarium air pump and add air to the system which will help diffuse the ammonia. You wouldn't be screwing around with pulling all the air out. How are you planning on keeping the RH stable during the process? 

Like Al said, we are talking about NCs here which often don't get better after an initial 6-12mo rest. Many people feel that marinating in the ammonia helps. Kind of like letting it stew in its own juices.


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## Gdaddy (Sep 20, 2012)

Only one way to find out. I'm going to make a small device and test some new cigars. I'll post some photos.


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## KaChong (Jan 1, 2012)

Lowering the pressure is going to cause increased evaporation of water and volatile oils if you hold temperature constant. By reducing the pressure in your jar, you are reducing the partial pressure of water vapor in the container which will cause the evaporation of water in your cigars. It will also have the same effect on ammonia dissolved into your cigars which may be the effect your after. You could compensate for water evaporation by placing some boveda packs into the jar, but I am unsure what equilibrium humidity they'd end up maintaining. I think this Mollier chart is the reference you need to work out your low pressure humidity conditions that will provide 65%RH conditions when you return to atmospheric pressure.

File:Mollier.pdf - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Psychrometrics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'd have to dust off some old memory banks to figure out that chart.


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## Gdaddy (Sep 20, 2012)

KaChong said:


> Lowering the pressure is going to cause increased evaporation of water and volatile oils if you hold temperature constant. By reducing the pressure in your jar, you are reducing the partial pressure of water vapor in the container which will cause the evaporation of water in your cigars. It will also have the same effect on ammonia dissolved into your cigars which may be the effect your after. You could compensate for water evaporation by placing some boveda packs into the jar, but I am unsure what equilibrium humidity they'd end up maintaining. I think this Mollier chart is the reference you need to work out your low pressure humidity conditions that will provide 65%RH conditions when you return to atmospheric pressure.
> 
> File:Mollier.pdf - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> ...


Thanks KaChong. This is really good information. Please keep in mind that the process would be very quick. Just a few seconds and the cigar would be re-inhaled with 70RH air.

Any scientific info is VERY welcome.


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## kevink (Sep 13, 2012)

Little off topic, but has anyone tried out the HCM beads? I was looking at them on their website today, and they claim "The beads themselves do not absorb anything but moisture and ammonia, so they never become contaminated by free hydrocarbons or other matter the way silica-based products do. (This is why the silica-based products turn yellow over time)". 

My ears perked up about the ammonia absorption, as it seems like ammonia is permeating a lot of the cigars in my wineador right now. I'm currently using the Heartfelt beads. Granted most of my stash is fairly young, and I understand the sick period and the time it takes for them to get over this hump, but I was hoping this may help a little. I'm getting tired of the ammonia taste in the cigars I have sampled, including my Padrons.


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## Gdaddy (Sep 20, 2012)

Cigar Noob said:


> Why not just get an aquarium air pump and add air to the system which will help diffuse the ammonia. You wouldn't be screwing around with pulling all the air out. How are you planning on keeping the RH stable during the process?
> 
> Like Al said, we are talking about NCs here which often don't get better after an initial 6-12mo rest. Many people feel that marinating in the ammonia helps. Kind of like letting it stew in its own juices.


Does ammonia help with aging and add flavor or is it a foul bi-product? I'm not really sure.

I wouldn't be sucking all the air out of the humidor so there would be enough residual RH air left over to draw back into the cigar. There would need to be humidification device to bring back the air that is pumped out. I thought about capturing the air and returning it. Pump it into a balloon and suck it back into the humidor would keep things stable as far as RH.


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## Gdaddy (Sep 20, 2012)

kevink said:


> Little off topic, but has anyone tried out the HCM beads? I was looking at them on their website today, and they claim "The beads themselves do not absorb anything but moisture and ammonia, so they never become contaminated by free hydrocarbons or other matter the way silica-based products do. (This is why the silica-based products turn yellow over time)".
> 
> My ears perked up about the ammonia absorption, as it seems like ammonia is permeating a lot of the cigars in my wineador right now. I'm currently using the Heartfelt beads. Granted most of my stash is fairly young, and I understand the sick period and the time it takes for them to get over this hump, but I was hoping this may help a little. I'm getting tired of the ammonia taste in the cigars I have sampled, including my Padrons.


The ammonia you speak of is exactly why I started thinking about this.

HCM beads look excellent. However, they will absorb the moisture and ammonia out of the surrounding air but will do nothing to eliminate the ammonia lingering inside the cigar. Ammonia will,in time, work it's way out and could then be absorbed by the beads.


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## kevink (Sep 13, 2012)

Gdaddy said:


> The ammonia you speak of is exactly why I started thinking about this.
> 
> HCM beads look excellent. However, they will absorb the moisture and ammonia out of the surrounding air but will do nothing to eliminate the ammonia lingering inside the cigar. Ammonia will,in time, work it's way out and could then be absorbed by the beads.


What I am wondering is if the sick cigars are "infecting" others in close proximity. The weather has been unstable here in California lately, and as the weather has cooled, I've awoken to find the top part of the wineador above 70% humidity, with 65% beads. The humidity will stabilize later in the day, but I wonder if these small events can lead to a drier cigar soaking up some of the excess lingering moisture and ammonia as there isn't a lot of cedar in the wineador, yet. I seem to notice most of the ammonia smell near the foot of the cigars (most of which have cellophane on). I do try to open the unit up a few times a day to air out.

I'll continue what I'm doing for the next several months, but if this continues long term, I may try the HCM beads, to see if there is a difference.


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## Gdaddy (Sep 20, 2012)

Just an update.... HOT off the presses...

I have a basic (small) heavy glass jar poked a hole in the lid and attach a hand pump used to bleed brakes from Harbor Freight. It pulls down a pretty good amount of vacuum.

I have some pioneer Valley cigars that are 'green' and pretty much un-smoke-able (bitter) to experiment with. (divided into two groups) 

Pump them down a couple times a day then place them back in the humidor. Let's see what happens.


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## Gdaddy (Sep 20, 2012)

KaChong said:


> Lowering the pressure is going to cause increased evaporation of water and volatile oils if you hold temperature constant. By reducing the pressure in your jar, you are reducing the partial pressure of water vapor in the container which will cause the evaporation of water in your cigars. It will also have the same effect on ammonia dissolved into your cigars which may be the effect your after. You could compensate for water evaporation by placing some boveda packs into the jar, but I am unsure what equilibrium humidity they'd end up maintaining. I think this Mollier chart is the reference you need to work out your low pressure humidity conditions that will provide 65%RH conditions when you return to atmospheric pressure.
> 
> File:Mollier.pdf - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> ...


When a new shipment of cigars comes in I have no idea what RH they are.

It appears that it is much easier for a cigar to absorb moisture then it is to release moisture. (The reason new cigars need to rest.) So it would appear that placing them in a vacuum would expedite this process by increasing evaporation of both water vapor and ammonia.


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