# Should Habanos Taste Good Young?



## jgros001 (Jun 14, 2005)

I am starting a new thread for this topic because I do not want to hijack a thread that mentioned this. 

I will start with my opinion. I would say no. One of the reasons I like this hobby so much is that it is not instant gratification. It takes patience. I enjoy the discussion...when do you think this cigar will be smokeable? The chase....is it good yet....is it great yet? I think for me this would not have the same appeal if aging wasn't necessary. No need for the extra humidors/cabinets. 

Personally, I think it may be a product of our society. Instant gratification...microwaves, delivery, etc. For years, people have aged habanos; I, for one, hope it stays that way and the newer blends have the potential to age into great cigars.

Any thoughts?


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## Neuromancer (Sep 7, 2005)

I think the general consensus of opinion will side with you and say that Habanos will not taste good when they're extremely fresh and just made...if you read MRN, he advocates aging them for many years before they start tasting decent at all but I doubt if many Habanos we have are gonna last that long...


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## jgros001 (Jun 14, 2005)

Neuromancer said:


> I think the general consensus of opinion will side with you and say that Habanos will not taste good when they're extremely fresh and just made...if to read MRN, he advocates aging them for many years before they start tasting decent at all but I doubt if many Habanos we have are gonna last that long...


not "do"...but "should"


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## FpDoc77 (Nov 30, 2005)

I can say from limited experience that many newer ISOMs smoke good young. With that said I know they smoke much better aged. I want to buy enough boxes to fill both the instant need and the later need. Im now well on my way.


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## katietilley (Feb 12, 2006)

FpDoc77 said:


> I can say from limited experience that many newer ISOMs smoke good young. With that said I know they smoke much better aged. I want to buy enough boxes to fill both the instant need and the later need. Im now well on my way.


yes you are! lol


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## FpDoc77 (Nov 30, 2005)

katietilley said:


> yes you are! lol


I have only bought 125 this week...cut me some slack.


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## kvm (Sep 7, 2005)

I have to disagree with you . I think all cigars should taste good young and I would expect that the manufacturers feel the same. While I can understand that cigars, like wine or scotch and so on may change and improve with age, I have a hard time with the concept that they shouldn't be good in a minimal amount of time.

It seems to be the general consensus that nc's don't benefit that much from aging. So why would a Cuban cigar be any different? A cigar is rolled, the binder filler and wrapper kind of settle in exchange oils etc.. and you have a finished product. It should be good by the time it gets to you unless you grabbed on its way out the factory door.

I found an old thread a while ago that several true fogs posted in. It was a review of a particular cigar and I don't remember the exact details and couldn't find it again later, but it came down to "This smoke is ten years old and I don't think it is quite ready yet."

All I could think of was if it isn't a good smoke after ten years how good can it be?

I agree that letting a cigar age and trying it over time is a part of the hobby. Seeing just how much it may change and how much better it might get.

Habanos not being good young and aging sounds like something P.T. Barnum came up with.

"Here my good man try this $10.00 cigar." Well yes sir it does taste like $hit but in ten years your gonna love it." " How many boxes do you want?"

Is there any other product you would buy and accept the fact that it wouldn't be truly useable for several years?

So yes they should be good young and being better with age a benefit of the hobby.


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## plexiprs (Nov 18, 2005)

I'll take a young habano over any NC, just about any time. The majority do get better, some significant;y so, with aging. But aging requires the resources to buy in quantity and have the storage. Things would be different if they were locally available and you had a B&M with reasonable locker rentals. If that were the case, I'd probabl have 500-600 in the locker aging!!!!!!!!!


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## FpDoc77 (Nov 30, 2005)

kvm said:


> I have to disagree with you . I think all cigars should taste good young and I would expect that the manufacturers feel the same. While I can understand that cigars, like wine or scotch and so on may change and improve with age, I have a hard time with the concept that they shouldn't be good in a minimal amount of time.
> 
> It seems to be the general consensus that nc's don't benefit that much from aging. So why would a Cuban cigar be any different? A cigar is rolled, the binder filler and wrapper kind of settle in exchange oils etc.. and you have a finished product. It should be good by the time it gets to you unless you grabbed on its way out the factory door.
> 
> ...


Very good post. They should smoke good young and with age. Age merely helps. But the thought of turning a bland smoke into a terrific smoke after 10 years seem like people are reaching.


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## habanaman (Feb 11, 2006)

I think that the cuban cigars must smoke immediately or aging .
Well if i buy a box of september 2005 i smoke them immediately or i smoke that box in 2007/2008/2009 depend wich brand.

But fresh the cuba cigars has different caratteristic from the aging cigars.
10/15 years ago the cuban cigars was always aging because the production was limited to 60/70 milion so many box stay in the shop for 1 or 2 year and the market was less hungry of cuban cigars so the habanos s.A. has all time for make the right process of fermentation and other process .Now every people in the word wont smoke cuban and habanos has quick the process of production .So now we have some cigars very fresh.Not always good,sometime with some problem of cosrtuction........


Any way i think that each brand has the right time to aging.I am not agree with MR Men ron NEE.
Absolutely!

I thin k that also the brand like partagàs saint luis or bolivar after 10/15 years go down


habanaman


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## dayplanner (Dec 11, 1997)

jgros001 said:


> I am starting a new thread for this topic because I do not want to hijack a thread that mentioned this.
> 
> I will start with my opinion. I would say no. One of the reasons I like this hobby so much is that it is not instant gratification. It takes patience. I enjoy the discussion...when do you think this cigar will be smokeable? The chase....is it good yet....is it great yet? I think for me this would not have the same appeal if aging wasn't necessary. No need for the extra humidors/cabinets.
> 
> ...


Great topic Jeff. I think it depends on the brand honestly. I think all handmade cubans improve with age, but I have had several that smoke well straight from the box. SCDLH for me is a good example. I always end up killing them quick, can never hold on to them long term. I also don't think MMs improve much. I've had some JLPs that had 5 years of age that were just as bad as the new ones. I have a few boxes of Parti aristocrates and RyJ mille fleurs, but I won't have a solid answer for those until 2008 or so 

And for the record, I like the taste of cigars straight off the table. It's definetly quite the different experience.


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## LasciviousXXX (Oct 12, 2004)

kvm said:


> I have to disagree with you . I think all cigars should taste good young and I would expect that the manufacturers feel the same. While I can understand that cigars, like wine or scotch and so on may change and improve with age, I have a hard time with the concept that they shouldn't be good in a minimal amount of time.
> 
> It seems to be the general consensus that nc's don't benefit that much from aging. So why would a Cuban cigar be any different? A cigar is rolled, the binder filler and wrapper kind of settle in exchange oils etc.. and you have a finished product. It should be good by the time it gets to you unless you grabbed on its way out the factory door.
> 
> ...


I completely disagree with almost every point in your post.... while the argument sounds great when spun a certain way its impossible to compare the maturation time of NC's to Cubans... they're like apples and oranges. No, they're both not the same. While I could go on with the "why" I think I will quote one of the FOG's. I hope Dipteran doesn't mind me borrowing one of his posts but it sums up quite nicely why aging is beneficial and why many people (Americans mostly) miss that point. And I quote:



Dipteran said:


> If you look at the cigar boards you get the answer. Americans often seem to disregard the lessons learned by years of experience from other countries who had a "cigar culture". For example, many (but not all) Americans don't want to age their cigars: either they are impatient or they don't believe that they DO get better with age. For example, there was once a discussion on another board, which shall remain nameless (lest I be called a STUNAD) whether Habanos actually got better with age. A surprisingly large number of people weighed in with "no"! Also, the cigar boom produced a lot of people who were chasing boutique brands such as Cohiba and Trinidad at the expense of others. Don't get me wrong--I like a good Cohiba--but weighing the price/quality ratio one can find a lot of other vitolas that are equally worth smoking (e.g., Bolivars). It really ticks me off to see people opine that cigars don't improve with substantial age just to justify their own smoking "off the truck": this ignores years of experience from people in other places. I think people sometimes do this because they aren't willing to wait for the cigars to get good, so they justify infanticide by saying that they don't.
> 
> Americans don't ignore the advice to age good Bordeaux; why do we ignore the advice to age good cigars?
> 
> ...





Dipteran said:


> Nevertheless, I am always surprised by how often people on other boards pooh-pooh the idea that cigars get better with age. The best cigar I ever smoked was a pre-embargo Don Candido, which was ethereal not just because of its inherent quality, but because it was over 50 years old and had a distinct "musty" flavor that was immensely appealing and that I've also tasted in other cigars with substantial age.
> 
> I think that when it comes to Havana cigars and Bordeaux or Burgundy or Rhones, you CANNOT have an "instant gratification culture" if you want the best stuff, because the best stuff is available ONLY through ageing. I'll recant when they develop a way to artificially age cigars and wine!


Take that for what you will but I think you'll find TONS of wisdom in there.

XXX


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## LasciviousXXX (Oct 12, 2004)

A quote from Viper, another very knowledgeable BOTL:



Viper said:


> I feel the opinion that cigars do not get better with age is due to the fact most NCs do not get better with age and that is what they smoke. These peolpe just assume that if the ones they smoke don't improve why should any other cigar, afterall it is just tobacco right, improve with age. They have just one perspective and they apply it across the board.


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## hollywood (Feb 15, 2005)

some cigars: young = good / aged = great

other cigars: young = bad / aged = better

more cigars: young = good / aged = good

and others: young = good / aged = worse



The constant: cigars = good !!!

As with so many perspectives on cuban and NC cigars; whether discussing aging, profiles, likes, and dislikes; it is something that you can hear a different one from each person you talk to. Great information available to consider, but really it is neccessary for you to try it for yourself to really learn what you like. It will take time, lots of it, but you will eventually have your own strongly developed views. 

Me - I am still far from knowing my a$$ from a hole in the ground. However I am learning the differences between certain cigars that I really like, when they are young and when the are aged. Thus far aged has a huge lead in my book. I don't have the resources either to buy large quantities of sticks to store for years, but I can find an aged box once in a while, and put parts of them back. It's all about the trials we go through, and all the enjoyment we have along the way.


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## LasciviousXXX (Oct 12, 2004)

Dave, while I agree that the overall theme is Cigars are good I have to say that it is (IMO) unwise to disregard the wisdom and the experience of so many FOG's around the world that agree that aging a cigar does increase its potential.

IMO, to completely write off that information and knowledge is wreckless and sort of like saying "Yeah I know everybody says that if I stick my hand in the fire I'll get burned.... but I think that's bullshit"


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## jgros001 (Jun 14, 2005)

kvm said:


> I found an old thread a while ago that several true fogs posted in. It was a review of a particular cigar and I don't remember the exact details and couldn't find it again later, but it came down to "This smoke is ten years old and I don't think it is quite ready yet."
> 
> All I could think of was if it isn't a good smoke after ten years how good can it be?


This is exactly why I am searching for a cab of the Punch SS#2. 10 years out and still hints of ammonia. The wait of 20 years for it to be spectactular is the ultimate in patience and dedication to the hobby.


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## croatan (Mar 23, 2005)

Should they taste good young? Sure. Do they? In a way.

Someone brought up the example of Bordeaux. I think that's a great comparison, and one I've used many times. Young Bordeaux tastes like..well..young Bordeaux. It will still drink, it will still taste better than most wines, but it won't taste nearly as good as it will in a few years. How many years? Well, that depends on the wine and vintage.

Cuban cigars are the same. You can smoke them young, they'll still usually taste better than most cigars coming from other countries. However, just like Bordeaux, it could be said that you're wasting the cigar in a way because you're smoking it before its time. I have yet to see a Cuban cigar that doesn't get better with age. That being said, I do smoke quite a few young cigars because I like to see how the flavors change over the years--the only way to do that is to smoke.

Part of the fun of this hobby is learning when certain cigars smoke well. It's trial and error and it's practice (and the practice is smoking, so it's fun ). If they all smoked well immediately after rolling and never changed flavors or matured, some of the fun would be lost. If they all smoked well immediately after rolling and then continued to mature and improve, well that would be pretty cool :w


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

kvm said:


> I have to disagree with you . I think all cigars should taste good young and I would expect that the manufacturers feel the same. While I can understand that cigars, like wine or scotch and so on may change and improve with age, I have a hard time with the concept that they shouldn't be good in a minimal amount of time.
> 
> It seems to be the general consensus that nc's don't benefit that much from aging. So why would a Cuban cigar be any different? A cigar is rolled, the binder filler and wrapper kind of settle in exchange oils etc.. and you have a finished product. It should be good by the time it gets to you unless you grabbed on its way out the factory door.
> 
> ...


Is there another product that you buy that isn't usable (good) for many years? Hell yes. Evidently your not into wine. Wine and cigars are so similar. You can go into a wine shop and pick a bunch of popular wines that are too young to truely shine, or you can look around and maybe get some that already have some age. So many young wines are out of balance and too tannic. Cuban cigars are meant to age. It's all about the dollar with Cuba. They don't have time to sit on tobacco several years, they want the money now. This is the way it's always been. Some of the newer stuff needs less time than when I first started smoking Cubans 10 years ago, but still nothing is going to be truely great with a year or less. The tobacco is still fermenting and giving off ammonia (sick). You don't like it write a letter to Castro and complain. This hobby requires patience. Of course if you have enough money anything can be bought for a price, including aged cigars. It's still fairly easy to buy cigars from 98-01 that are not marked up much. Some of the popular smokes will never have much age (Monte #2's, Part. D4's,etc.). Either age them yourself or spend a lot of money for some already aged. If you think it's b.s. that they suck with only a few months age, then buy non-Cubans.


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

A cuban cigar should taste good young or old; just different. Sure, aged it should become much better. What's the point of walking into a store, buying a single if it's going to tast like crap? What's the point of a walk-in humidor with open boxes of the singles if you just want a couple for some afternoon drinks?

Tobbaconists are unlikely to have open boxes of aged cigars out.


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

mosesbotbol said:


> A cuban cigar should taste good young or old; just different. Sure, aged it should become much better. What's the point of walking into a store, buying a single if it's going to tast like crap? What's the point of a walk-in humidor with open boxes of the singles if you just want a couple for some afternoon drinks?
> 
> Tobbaconists are unlikely to have open boxes of aged cigars out.


Should they taste good young? Yes it would be nice.

Do they taste good young? No.

Will this change someday? Will they age tobacco longer before rolling? Probably not. Even if the tobacco is aged, the blend needs time to marry. There are no shortcuts like it or not.


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## mcgoospot (Jan 1, 2000)

I've NEVER had a cigar that didn't get better with age, period. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Sure I've had good young cigars (the 9/05 siglo V I smoked last night was delicious) but they are ALWAYS better with age (it was no comparison to the '93 Siglo V I smoked the night before or even the '02 Siglo IV I smoked on Saturday). Sure cigars can lose some of their flavor over time and most cigars do peak. Part of the fun is to try to find out when they peak It's an inexact science. Some cigars take 20 years to peak (Punch SS#2s for example) whereas some cigars smokke bst at 5-7 years (many people prefer their Cohibas during this period when they've mellowed but have not yet lost that vanilla-bean taste). It's all up to the individual, but, for my tastes, EVERY Cuban cigar I've ever smoked tastes better aged.


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

It's all perception, if you like the cigar, then it is good, and MRN can go screw.... If a chick like white zin, then she likes it... Robert Parker may have another idea on what is good, and he will tell you to let your tastebuds decide, not his review.

If there's no pleasure in it, then it doesn't matter to start with.


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## LasciviousXXX (Oct 12, 2004)

Edited by XXX..................


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

Tobbaconists are unlikely to have open boxes of aged cigars out.[/QUOTE]

I was in the Bahamas in Nov. I bought a lot of 5-10 year old sticks with me from home. I also bought a single cigar to smoke every night from the Havana Humidor Store. I grabed stuff that I did not currently have for the most part. All you have to do is flip the box over and look at the date. The singles they were selling went as far back as 1998 on some of the less popular smokes. I smoked 1998 Boli Petits and 2001 Punch Manarcas. Diplo # 4 and 5 from 01 and 02. Boli Immensas from 2002. The mature stocks were not separated from the 05 stuff. It's the same whether you order online or you are picking some singles somehwere. The only young cigar I smoked was an 05 Upmann #2. Been a while since I had one so I gambled. You know what? It tasted like shit and I tossed it halfway through. First inch or so not too bad then it quickly developed some nasty funky notes from it's youth. Young cigars are rarely very good.


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## mcgoospot (Jan 1, 2000)

Fredster said:


> Tobbaconists are unlikely to have open boxes of aged cigars out.


I was in the Bahamas in Nov. I bought a lot of 5-10 year old sticks with me from home. I also bought a single cigar to smoke every night from the Havana Humidor Store. I grabed stuff that I did not currently have for the most part. All you have to do is flip the box over and look at the date. The singles they were selling went as far back as 1998 on some of the less popular smokes. I smoked 1998 Boli Petits and 2001 Punch Manarcas. Diplo # 4 and 5 from 01 and 02. Boli Immensas from 2002. The mature stocks were not separated from the 05 stuff. It's the same whether you order online or you are picking some singles somehwere. The only young cigar I smoked was an 05 Upmann #2. Been a while since I had one so I gambled. You know what? It tasted like shit and I tossed it halfway through. First inch or so not too bad then it quickly developed some nasty funky notes from it's youth. Young cigars are rarely very good.[/QUOTE]

The only problem with this is that many vendors (including some LCDHs) merely restock the boxes that are on the shelves with the newer product. I was a t a LCDH in Canada and was flipping over the boxes to see the date codes when the sales person asked what I was doing. When I told him he said that they just add to the boxes that are on the shelves when they reach a certain level. So just looking at the box codes of open boxes on the shelves of stores may not always be accurate.


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## thebiglebowski (Dec 19, 2005)

wow...

the dude really touched off some good debate (and i don't even get any ring gauge luv. hmm, izzit cuz i'm not a gurl? ah, scratch that...  )

anywho - i think we're going off on a tangent here. what i had originally asked was; do we think that ISOMs *MUST *age to taste good, or do they taste good (or pretty good, or mostly good, or fairly good, or pretty alright) *NOW *but - in all likelihood - will be *EVEN *better with the proper age on them?

i think we can all (mostly) agree that the ISOMs (mostly) will be even better (mostly) in time, but i also think that (mostly) a BBF right NOW will (mostly) blow the socks off of a... i dunno - really good padron 6000 (or whatever the similar belicosos is).

just my :2


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## Herfzilla (Aug 9, 2004)

Perhaps I am weird, BUT, I like some habanos young, especially PSD#4's. They have a taste I really like when they are sort of "green" then they get bitter and you need to let them sleep for a while, then with some age on them they are great again, but with a different taste. I do agree that habanos, as a rule, SHOULD be a great smoke young, but many are not. Hopefully, the foriegn partial ownership of Habanos will help with the short term cash crunch for the government of cuba and is putting back leaf every year to age and blend into regular production in the future so that the waiting period will get shorter and shorter as the years go by. That is what I would do, anyway.


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## hollywood (Feb 15, 2005)

LasciviousXXX said:


> Dave, while I agree that the overall theme is Cigars are good I have to say that it is (IMO) unwise to disregard the wisdom and the experience of so many FOG's around the world that agree that aging a cigar does increase its potential.
> 
> IMO, to completely write off that information and knowledge is wreckless and sort of like saying "Yeah I know everybody says that if I stick my hand in the fire I'll get burned.... but I think that's bullshit"


WHOAA DUSTIN!!

Where the hell did I say that!?!?! I specifically said to take everybody's advise and consider it and he can make choices based on that. What I was saying is that we all end up liking what we like regardless of what others say, but we have to start somewhere. I think I also said that I an still an ultra-newb and am only begining to learn the differences in smokes and ages. So SLOW down the finger waving on this one! Not at all what I was saying!!

As a matter of fact I think aging is the way to go!! That is why I am only trying to buy cigars with at least a few uears on them. While they are available I want to get the '98-'02 smokes so that when i put some down they have a head start, and if i wasnt to smoke them, they are better(IMO) than ones produced just last year for the most part.


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

I suppose that could happen. It was not the case in the Bahamas though. Number 1, I know what a young cigar tastes like. In the case of the Punch Monarcas they are not even made past 02 I believe. Number 2, the sealed boxes that were under the open Boli Petits and the others I mentioned were the same dates as the open one on top. Sure all of the larger more popular sticks were all 05's, but not most of the small sticks. I hear what your saying though, and don't doubt this could happen.

The only problem with this is that many vendors (including some LCDHs) merely restock the boxes that are on the shelves with the newer product. I was a t a LCDH in Canada and was flipping over the boxes to see the date codes when the sales person asked what I was doing. When I told him he said that they just add to the boxes that are on the shelves when they reach a certain level. So just looking at the box codes of open boxes on the shelves of stores may not always be accurate.[/QUOTE]


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## Bruce (Dec 31, 1999)

Ok..here's my two cents.
A cigar has to taste decent when young to get an idea of ageing potential. It may not taste the greatest, but you must be able to detect some good nuances that may suggest TO YOU that this cigar will improve with age.

Not all cigars get better with age so to speak. If you start out with a dog rocket and age it, will it taste better aged? Maybey, but there's a good chance that all you will end up with is an aged dog rocket.


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

Herfzilla said:


> Perhaps I am weird, BUT, I like some habanos young, especially PSD#4's. They have a taste I really like when they are sort of "green" then they get bitter and you need to let them sleep for a while, then with some age on them they are great again, but with a different taste. I do agree that habanos, as a rule, SHOULD be a great smoke young, but many are not. Hopefully, the foriegn partial ownership of Habanos will help with the short term cash crunch for the government of cuba and is putting back leaf every year to age and blend into regular production in the future so that the waiting period will get shorter and shorter as the years go by. That is what I would do, anyway.


The D4 is one of the very few sticks that tastes pretty good before they go sick to me also. I agree they SHOULD all be good young, but it's just not the case. You buy a box to smoke with less than a years age you're really risking smoking some sick cigars. I suppose if someone is new and all they have smoked is N.C.'s these young or maybe sick cigars are a step up. How much age is such a personal taste thing, but I just don't understand smoking real fresh Cubans. Took me a few years to figure this out, wish I had been on Club Stogie or somewhere else when I was newbie. Could have saved me a lot of money and dissapointment. I never had a mentor with Cubans and learned the hard way. I'm still learning stuff almost everday after 10 years. You try to share this info and help people make informed desicions and people just don't want to hear it. Maybe there should be a section for folks that like to puff on 05 and 06 Habanos and one for folks that like to discuss mature stocks and when sticks peak? Maybe a section for rare and aged also? I'm sure some of the big dogs get tired of me talking about crappy 5-10 year old sticks. It's all relative.


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## LasciviousXXX (Oct 12, 2004)

hollywood said:


> WHOAA DUSTIN!!
> 
> Where the hell did I say that!?!?! I specifically said to take everybody's advise and consider it and he can make choices based on that. What I was saying is that we all end up liking what we like regardless of what others say, but we have to start somewhere. I think I also said that I an still an ultra-newb and am only begining to learn the differences in smokes and ages. So SLOW down the finger waving on this one! Not at all what I was saying!!
> 
> As a matter of fact I think aging is the way to go!! That is why I am only trying to buy cigars with at least a few uears on them. While they are available I want to get the '98-'02 smokes so that when i put some down they have a head start, and if i wasnt to smoke them, they are better(IMO) than ones produced just last year for the most part.


Sorry Dave, I guess I just worded that wrong and didn't re-read my post before I posted it. I was just using you as a lead in.... sorry bro, my bad

What the rest of the post was referring to was KVM's post. Basically I was just telling *him* that it is unwise to disregard the knowledge of the FOG's. I just used your quote as a lead in to say that I agree that all cigars are good 

Sorry about the mis-understanding... my bad


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## hollywood (Feb 15, 2005)

LasciviousXXX said:


> Sorry Dave, I guess I just worded that wrong and didn't re-read my post before I posted it. I was just using you as a lead in.... sorry bro, my bad
> 
> What the rest of the post was referring to was KVM's post. Basically I was just telling *him* that it is unwise to disregard the knowledge of the FOG's. I just used your quote as a lead in to say that I agree that all cigars are good
> 
> Sorry about the mis-understanding... my bad


Right on. We're cool. Thought maybe I was way off on what I posted. I definately agree on aging.


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## LasciviousXXX (Oct 12, 2004)

Sweet, sorry bout the mix-up. I was actually referring to KVM's post but I just didn't read my reply thoroughly before posting.

Agreed, while some cigars are very tasty young (PSD4,RASS) I believe that most if not all cigars benefit greatly from aging.

XXX


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## IHT (Dec 27, 2003)

mcgoospot said:


> The only problem with this is that many vendors (including some LCDHs) merely restock the boxes that are on the shelves with the newer product. I was a t a LCDH in Canada and was flipping over the boxes to see the date codes when the sales person asked what I was doing. When I told him he said that they just add to the boxes that are on the shelves when they reach a certain level. So just looking at the box codes of open boxes on the shelves of stores may not always be accurate.


i have to agree. when in germany, i was doing the very same thing, flipping over the boxes, writing down codes, etc. the lady asked me why i was doing that, and after i told her, she said roughly the same thing. they just open a new box, place more cigars in the old one...


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

IHT said:


> i have to agree. when in germany, i was doing the very same thing, flipping over the boxes, writing down codes, etc. the lady asked me why i was doing that, and after i told her, she said roughly the same thing. they just open a new box, place more cigars in the old one...


Maybe it's a La Casa policy? Maybe she just told you and everyone else that so people buy the young cigars too? In any case the sealed boxes in the Havana Humidor are with the singles and had the same codes. It's not a very big place. Average Joe Jackass that knows nothing about Cubans go's in and buys the cigars he's heard about, Monte #2, Cohiba Esplendido, Romeo C-Hill, etc. These cigars were all 05's in singles and sealed boxes. The smaller smokes for the most part got left alone and the sealed boxes and singles were the same dates. Iv'e never been to a La Casa, but I would bet it's a more informed crowd shopping there. It's not in a mall setting like this store where everyone going by stops in.


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## dvickery (Jan 1, 2000)

Fredster said:


> The D4 is one of the very few sticks that tastes pretty good before they go sick to me also. I agree they SHOULD all be good young, but it's just not the case. You buy a box to smoke with less than a years age you're really risking smoking some sick cigars. I suppose if someone is new and all they have smoked is N.C.'s these young or maybe sick cigars are a step up. How much age is such a personal taste thing, but I just don't understand smoking real fresh Cubans. Took me a few years to figure this out, wish I had been on Club Stogie or somewhere else when I was newbie. Could have saved me a lot of money and dissapointment. I never had a mentor with Cubans and learned the hard way. I'm still learning stuff almost everday after 10 years. You try to share this info and help people make informed desicions and people just don't want to hear it. Maybe there should be a section for folks that like to puff on 05 and 06 Habanos and one for folks that like to discuss mature stocks and when sticks peak? Maybe a section for rare and aged also? I'm sure some of the big dogs get tired of me talking about crappy 5-10 year old sticks. It's all relative.


quite the thread...some heavy hitters speaking up here.

Should Habanos Taste Good Young?...yes and given the right situation they do...i take my cigars back to cuba when i go...yet i quite enjoy the verrrrry young cigars i buy there as singles.right time right place...but for the most part they are just young smokes and i have older ones at hand...so i lovingly age my youngsters.

now...why did i quote fred???an amazing post really...so much wisdom tucked into a single paragraph in a large thread...thank you fredster.

derrek


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

Even at Davidoff in Zurich, they just refill empty boxes and they don't have singles of all their cigars. It's all relative I guess. I would hate to buy a young cigar in Canada, as the cigar costs more than the dinner. Last few times to Montreal this year, I brought my own cigars... Cigar or a bottle of wine? tough one...

There's the young vs. sick debate too. Do the young cigars in this thread mean sick also, or just young? I've had 3 year old cigars that were sick after I took them over. They turned around after a couple of months in the humidor.


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

dvickery said:


> quite the thread...some heavy hitters speaking up here.
> 
> Should Habanos Taste Good Young?...yes and given the right situation they do...i take my cigars back to cuba when i go...yet i quite enjoy the verrrrry young cigars i buy there as singles.right time right place...but for the most part they are just young smokes and i have older ones at hand...so i lovingly age my youngsters.
> 
> ...


Derrek, I hope to get to Cuba one day. From what I understand the fresh rolled smokes are awsome, but can quickly go sick when you get them home. Have you encountered this? I enjoy reading your threads also. I can remember only a few times feeling satisfied and that I got my moneys worth when it comes to fresh cigars. Could just be me though I guess. The youngest cigar I have that I'm smoking and not aging is 03 CoRo's. I guess on a lot of these cigars If I never smoked a 5-10 year old one I would be satisfied with a fresh one. When I smoke one of my 1997 CoRos I got recently, I think of what incredible waste it was to smoke all of the 1 and 2 year old ones. I have some Punch Robustos aging and I think this cigar will be great. I smoked one before laying them down, and it showed potential, but I can't say I really enjoyed it. Anyways, good topic and lots of good input from everyone.


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## jgros001 (Jun 14, 2005)

mosesbotbol said:


> Even at Davidoff in Zurich, they just refill empty boxes and they don't have singles of all their cigars. It's all relative I guess. I would hate to buy a young cigar in Canada, as the cigar costs more than the dinner. Last few times to Montreal this year, I brought my own cigars... Cigar or a bottle of wine? tough one...
> 
> There's the young vs. sick debate too. Do the young cigars in this thread mean sick also, or just young? I've had 3 year old cigars that were sick after I took them over. They turned around after a couple of months in the humidor.


Sick could equal young. Certainly, there are many young cigars that are sick. Another question to ponder would be the definition of young. Is it one year, two, three, ten? For me, I consider '04 to present young. I base this on what I try to keep my hands off. Anything from '03 or older is my target smoking range. Not saying I do not smoke '04, '05 cigars but it is my preference to leave those alone.

The proper definition of young may be anything that has not reached its peak. For me, this is not attainable right now...but is the place I want to get.


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

jgros001 said:


> The proper definition of young may be anything that has not reached its peak. For me, this is not attainable right now...but is the place I want to get.


A bit ethereal... What kind analogy could we compare women to in your definition? Is Sharon Stone still young then?


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## Todd (Dec 11, 2004)

Obviously there isnt a constant in this discussion. 

Peoples tastes vary. And what is good to you may/ may not be good to me.

But you do have to question the fact that many of the newer cigars are coming from Cuba tasting good right off the truck. I just wonder how this will affect them down the road... I would hate to see them loose the kick just to try to impress people with fresh cigars...


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

Todd said:


> Obviously there isnt a constant in this discussion.
> 
> Peoples tastes vary. And what is good to you may/ may not be good to me.
> 
> But you do have to question the fact that many of the newer cigars are coming from Cuba tasting good right off the truck. I just wonder how this will affect them down the road... I would hate to see them loose the kick just to try to impress people with fresh cigars...


Good point. Some of the best aged cigars (1994 and earlier) did not taste good off the truck. If they keep getting better fresh what will that do down the road. I'd much rather have a stick that ages into something freaky good than a blend that tastes pretty good now.


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## OpusEx (Oct 31, 2003)

The following is absolutely and unequivocally just my :2 

Well, Bruce beat me to the punch, but.........
I too believe that the reason for smoking a young, off the truck or "fresh" cigar is to be able to see the potential in them (I'm going to leave the subject of defining "young" for another time, as it requires taking into consideration way too many variables (i.e. when was the cigar being boxed and box coded ACTUALLY rolled, when does the sick period start, from what crop is the leaf used in the cigar, etc.). Though young, these cigars should be able to give (and I say this without wanting to sound like some snob) the "experienced" smoker an idea of what may come with proper aging. While I believe the "true" flavors of a cigar are muted by it's "freshness" and strength due to youth, one can with some time and attention observe the things to come from a young cigar. If a cigar has nothing it is showing you when young (assuming it isn't sick), it is highly doubtful that it will show you anything with any amount of time. Now that said, some people enjoy the freshness of a cigar and the youthful taste and strength. If that works for them that is all that matters. One of the interests of this hobby to those who are passionate about it is how much better a cigar will get with time and at what point in time will it taste the best and at what point will it have started to diminish in benefit from time and ultimately not benefit at all or worsen due to time.

A few other things that have come up in this thread, which I would like to comment on:

1. Most cigar stores (certainly domestic and I would be willing to bet foreign) do not take the current box on the shelf off and replace it with a new box. They simply open a new box and refill the box on the shelf when it has reached a certain minimum. This is done even for the least of reasons to save time and expense re-labeling the boxes with price tags (you'd be amazed how much those stupid little stickers with the price written on them cost!) and some walk-in shelves are set-up so that box tops have to be removed to fit them etc.

2. It is a total fallacy that NC's do not benefit from aging (though some may not like how the NC's age) and I can provide an actual experience to prove my point. A very well known brand of NC's sales rep was with me not to long ago when I had him, myself and another person blind taste 2 versions of the same cigar. One of those cigars was current production and the other was composed of leaf from 1997 and had been boxed in 2001. The rep tasted both cigars and said that he could not smoke/enjoy the current production cigar, but really liked the other. When I told him what he was smoking, I then said "and this (current production cigar) is the one you want the retailer to push and sell and it's not a cigar you would want to smoke yourself! Not properly caring for and aging leaf and cigars is a huge pet peeve of mine when it comes to cigar manufacturers because they almost all do it in the chase for the almighty dollar.

3. If anyone thinks Altadis SA buying into Habanos SA is a good thing and that they will be putting aside leaf to age or bettering the production process with the impetus on producing a great cigar as the highest priority they are kidding themselves. A company like Altadis SA has such a huge overhead that their priority objective is to do it faster and cheaper and still have it be "acceptable" to the consumer so that they may make as much $ as possible to cover their expenses and make the most amount of $. That said, this does not preclude them from storing away some amounts of the highest quality leaf, caring for it impeccably and then rolling it and packaging it in some "reserve or limited" release and charging us out the ying yang for it!

4. My personal opinion on why newer production cigars are getting reviewed as tasting good now is that the raw material is being "hurried" along and "artificially" made very smokable for right now. It's like a bottle of wine, a young wine can be opened and allowed to breath for a period of time, which will allow it to oxidize and supposedly take on some of the characteristics of a bottle that has ACTUALLY been allowed to age the proper amount of time, but the young bottle will never come close to the latter and by opening it and allowing it to breath you have ruined the opportunity to try it when nature has been allowed to take its course, IMO a shame.

Anyway, enough ranting, great topic, very good discussion. Love talking about this kind of thing when in the company of others who enjoy this passion of ours


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## dvickery (Jan 1, 2000)

getting a bit off topic but i have to add my .02$ on why they refill boxes at the cigar stores.asked art at the smokeshop i frequent most this exact question...his answernce you get down to 3 or 4 smokes people slow down buying them and when you get to the last 1 or 2 people stop buying them completely...you cant put 3 cigars on top of a new box(they would fall on the floor)so you put 15 cigars in a nearly empty box.

derrek


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## OpusEx (Oct 31, 2003)

dvickery said:


> getting a bit off topic but i have to add my .02$ on why they refill boxes at the cigar stores.asked art at the smokeshop i frequent most this exact question...his answernce you get down to 3 or 4 smokes people slow down buying them and when you get to the last 1 or 2 people stop buying them completely...you cant put 3 cigars on top of a new box(they would fall on the floor)so you put 15 cigars in a nearly empty box.
> 
> derrek


Very correct sir and I should have added it to my post where I addressed this, it's the same thing with many retail items. If you left only a couple of any veggie or fruit in the areas they sit in the produce section of the grocery store, no one would buy them. The last of items has been handled and put back the most usually and due to that might have some defect of sort. A full box or pile of something just has more appeal to the consumer.


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

OpusEx said:


> Very correct sir and I should have added it to my post where I addressed this, it's the same thing with many retail items. If you left only a couple of any veggie or fruit in the areas they sit in the produce section of the grocery store, no one would buy them. The last of items has been handled and put back the most usually and due to that might have some defect of sort. A full box or pile of something just has more appeal to the consumer.


I can only comment on what I saw in the Bahamas, and that was many boxes with only a cigar or two in them. I was there over a week and went in daily. Someone takes the last cigar and they simply open the sealed box underneath. They did not have more storage in back. This is probably not the norm, as many here have seen different elswhere. I also don't think they had prices on the boxes. I had to ask everytime whats this cost or whats this. Nobody working there seemed to be very knowledgable at all.


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## LasciviousXXX (Oct 12, 2004)

I've only been to a handful of Cuban cigar shops as I don't travel outside the US much. However, to me it seemed like only 2 of the shops I visited seemed like they had a clue what I was talking about. And one of them was an LCDH in St. Maarten  The proprietor was extremely nice and very knowledgeable. It actually seemed like he was interested in cigars instead of just making money (very rare nowadays). Apparently Heartpumper visited the same LCDH last year. Maybe he can chime in.

When I was there though they were actually replacing the boxes (stockboy) and selling the empty boxes.


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

LasciviousXXX said:


> I've only been to a handful of Cuban cigar shops as I don't travel outside the US much. However, to me it seemed like only 2 of the shops I visited seemed like they had a clue what I was talking about. And one of them was an LCDH in St. Maarten  The proprietor was extremely nice and very knowledgeable. It actually seemed like he was interested in cigars instead of just making money (very rare nowadays). Apparently Heartpumper visited the same LCDH last year. Maybe he can chime in.
> 
> When I was there though they were actually replacing the boxes (stockboy) and selling the empty boxes.


I have not seen Heartpumper on C/S in a long time. Need to give him a call and see whats up. Played golf and smoked some nice cigars with him last year.


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

Over the last week, I did an aged/new side by sides of Upmann Monarchs or '05 and '01 and Cohiba Lanceros of '01 and '05. There's a "greeness" and fresh bouquet to the newer cigars that I like, although the aging mellows this out to let other flavors come out. I don't mind smoking the '05's at all, and the '01's were good too. So, basically, I don't have a preference either way on these two. Seems like the curing techniques may have changed and there are other variables that make even this side-by-side test unfair. I am back to "If you like it, smoke it..."

A truly beautiful woman should be hot at 18 and at 40 years old


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## LasciviousXXX (Oct 12, 2004)

Yeah haven't talked with him much via CS since last fall or so. Hope all is well with him. Give us an update Fred if you get one!

Hopefully he's just off on another vacation with the wife


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## jgros001 (Jun 14, 2005)

mosesbotbol said:


> Over the last week, I did an aged/new side by sides of Upmann Monarchs or '05 and '01 and Cohiba Lanceros of '01 and '05. There's a "greeness" and fresh bouquet to the newer cigars that I like, although the aging mellows this out to let other flavors come out. I don't mind smoking the '05's at all, and the '01's were good too. So, basically, I don't have a preference either way on these two. Seems like the curing techniques may have changed and there are other variables that make even this side-by-side test unfair. I am back to "If you like it, smoke it..."
> 
> A truly beautiful woman should be hot at 18 and at 40 years old


That's the million dollar question will '05 production be smoking great in 20 years. Just to draw from your analogy on beautiful women.


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

Bruce said:


> Ok..here's my two cents.
> A cigar has to taste decent when young to get an idea of ageing potential. It may not taste the greatest, but you must be able to detect some good nuances that may suggest TO YOU that this cigar will improve with age.
> 
> Not all cigars get better with age so to speak. If you start out with a dog rocket and age it, will it taste better aged? Maybey, but there's a good chance that all you will end up with is an aged dog rocket.


I have a huge respect for you're experience and collection.
I hear what your saying, but don't agree young smokes even taste decent sometimes. I've smoked some cigars I thought were pretty bad that turned into real gems. Monte Millenium Robusto is one that comes to mind. Smoked these pretty fresh, just to get an idea of what it would be like. Harsh, one noted, and tasted nothing like a Monte. Maybe I don't have enough experience to tell they had potential, but I know I did not enjoy them young. I now really like this cigar. Even if most are decent young, who the hell wants to pay top dollar for Cubans and smoke it when it's young or decent? I'll smoke stuff before aging like the Punch robusto just to see if I can guage some potential, but you just don't really know unless you're a phsycic. This is a lot different than buying a whole box of young cigars and smoking them all young, then complaining they should taste good. Used to think strong, harsh cigars age good and weaker blends don't. I now know this is not always the case. Some weak or bland cigars actually increase in flavor, strength , and richness. My point is, it just seems crazy to smoke a cigar under a year or so. Could be sick, and will not be anywhere near it's potential. Now I know you could say well Fred some of these cigars don't reach their potential for decades and you are smoking them too young at 4-10 years. It all comes down to what your personal tastes are and what your wallet can afford. Bottom line, should they taste good young? Yes in a perfect world, but like Opusex said, they are not going to age tobacco before rolling. They are too greedy and only care about the bottom line (most large Corporations are). If they are artificially speeding up the process to taste better young to satisfy newbies and sell more cigars, that really sucks! No way they could age as well as they would naturally. Sorry to rant, I will now shut-up on the topic.


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

mosesbotbol said:


> Over the last week, I did an aged/new side by sides of Upmann Monarchs or '05 and '01 and Cohiba Lanceros of '01 and '05. There's a "greeness" and fresh bouquet to the newer cigars that I like, although the aging mellows this out to let other flavors come out. I don't mind smoking the '05's at all, and the '01's were good too. So, basically, I don't have a preference either way on these two. Seems like the curing techniques may have changed and there are other variables that make even this side-by-side test unfair. I am back to "If you like it, smoke it..."
> 
> A truly beautiful woman should be hot at 18 and at 40 years old


I could not disagree with you more. The two cigars you mentioned are both terrible to me young. The Cohiba is harsh and so many of the subtle nuances and flavors are just not there. The Monarcas I have from 98 are so much richer and complex than a fresh one. Upmanns for the most part increase in flavor and strength with age. Young Monarcas are a bland, lackluster stick. To each his own though.


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## thebiglebowski (Dec 19, 2005)

OpusEx said:


> The following is absolutely and unequivocally just my :2
> 
> Well, Bruce beat me to the punch, but.........
> I too believe that the reason for smoking a young, off the truck or "fresh" cigar is to be able to see the potential in them (I'm going to leave the subject of defining "young" for another time, as it requires taking into consideration way too many variables (i.e. when was the cigar being boxed and box coded ACTUALLY rolled, when does the sick period start, from what crop is the leaf used in the cigar, etc.). Though young, these cigars should be able to give (and I say this without wanting to sound like some snob) the "experienced" smoker an idea of what may come with proper aging. While I believe the "true" flavors of a cigar are muted by it's "freshness" and strength due to youth, one can with some time and attention observe the things to come from a young cigar. If a cigar has nothing it is showing you when young (assuming it isn't sick), it is highly doubtful that it will show you anything with any amount of time. Now that said, some people enjoy the freshness of a cigar and the youthful taste and strength. If that works for them that is all that matters. One of the interests of this hobby to those who are passionate about it is how much better a cigar will get with time and at what point in time will it taste the best and at what point will it have started to diminish in benefit from time and ultimately not benefit at all or worsen due to time.
> ...


great thoughts here, Opus. I - who think a cigar should be good young and (hopefully) even BETTER when aged (in agreement with Moses' posting on this thread as well) - also seriously hope that Havana isn't performing any monkey business on the "new" cigars to make them taste good now...

and i just love this, from OpusEx;

_this passion of ours_

sounds so... cosa nostra-ish...


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## LasciviousXXX (Oct 12, 2004)

thebiglebowski said:


> sounds so... cosa nostra-ish...


Its _La_ Cosa Nostra ya mook!

You must pay a penance for getting it wrong.... give me your pinky


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## shakespeare (Mar 10, 2005)

habanaman said:


> I thin k that also the brand like partagàs saint luis or bolivar after 10/15 years go down
> 
> habanaman


:tpd: I have to agree that from what I have read, any cigar starts become weaker and bland after 10 to 15 years. To keep a box for 10 years, storing conditions must be IDEAL. The only way this can be ensured is having a locker at a B&M. PSD4´s aren´t bad young as they go through a bad phase after a year or two if I´m not mistaken.

I have to admit that a BBF shouldn´t taste too great young. It´s pretty spicy and earthy when it´s young IMHO. After letting a BBF rest for about a year, I can ensure you that the TRUE flavour comes out, a great balance of a somewhat sweet spiciness.

On another note. If there is the slightest incling(sp) of a taste or smell of ammonia, I advise to let the cigar rest longer. So, no, habanos shouldn´t taste great young. They should taste great after at least a year or two of aging, then again this depends on the cigar.

just my :2


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## pnoon (Jun 8, 2005)

While I have nothing of substance to add to this discussion (I am still a relative newb), I do want to say I am astounded at the depth of information contained in this thread. Absolutely fantastic reading. Maybe this should be made a sticky and required reading for all us ignorami. That's plural of ignoramus!
Thanks guys.
Carry on.


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## jgros001 (Jun 14, 2005)

shakespeare said:


> I have to agree that from what I have read, any cigar starts become weaker and bland after 10 to 15 years. To keep a box for 10 years, storing conditions must be IDEAL. The only way this can be ensured is having a locker at a B&M.


Good points but I tend to disagree that any cigar starts to become weaker and bland after 10 - 15 years. I think some will say that certain cigars are just coming into their own at that point and others still developing.

Keeping a box for 10 years, why do you say that I need a locker at a B&M? I would think that I can maintain the same conditions in a cooler/cabinet or humidor. In actuality, I can keep the conditions to my specificity rather than the B&Ms. Just would like to know the reasoning...


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

jgros001 said:


> Good points but I tend to disagree that any cigar starts to become weaker and bland after 10 - 15 years. I think some will say that certain cigars are just coming into their own at that point and others still developing.
> 
> Keeping a box for 10 years, why do you say that I need a locker at a B&M? I would think that I can maintain the same conditions in a cooler/cabinet or humidor. In actuality, I can keep the conditions to my specificity rather than the B&Ms. Just would like to know the reasoning...


well said. many cigars are still going strong for decades. I'm sure Bruce could give more info on this. Some Cuban cigars are actually stronger after 10-15 years. Upmann #2 and Sir Winston. Punch SS#2 aren't even close to peaking in 10-15. I don't understand the locker comment either. Conditions at my house are closely monitored daily, and stuff ages fine. You don't have to have pinpoint perfect temps and humidity to store cigars 10 years or longer. I have several of the digital Oasis Plus XL's and they are adjustable to the 1/10th of a percent. I also make sure the temps don't fluctuate too much.


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## plexiprs (Nov 18, 2005)

Isn't the year to year variability in the tobacco crops a facotr that contributes to the young and aged flavor alike? How can we know that a cigar made 10 years ago contained tobacco of the same breed, from the same farm, and was carrying the same essential flavor compunds as a '05 stick of the same line and vitola?

To me it seems that each year stands alone and shouldn't be compared in a tasting to previous years crops. Is it good young and does it hint that it will improve over time is what I look for. After time retasting may show little or no improvement, or possibly loss of flavor, but the same cigar from a year ago may have improved 300%.

I like many cigars in their young period, and many later in their aging process. But everyone is different and it is hard to have an outstanding smoke that you know is 6-8 years aged, then accept its younger counterpart with a lesser flavor.

I wonder why, no one seems to be establishing a business that is now buying new (young) quality cigars for aging and resale later. Aren't there places that do that with wines?


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## shakespeare (Mar 10, 2005)

jgros001 said:


> Good points but I tend to disagree that any cigar starts to become weaker and bland after 10 - 15 years. I think some will say that certain cigars are just coming into their own at that point and others still developing.
> 
> Keeping a box for 10 years, why do you say that I need a locker at a B&M? I would think that I can maintain the same conditions in a cooler/cabinet or humidor. In actuality, I can keep the conditions to my specificity rather than the B&Ms. Just would like to know the reasoning...


True. It´s a very relative subject. Some cigars may start developing after 10-15 years but they will most definately get weaker. They may balance out according to ones personal taste, I give you that.
Keeping a GOOD cigar in a B&M locker, well I apologise, let me rather say it´s safer and you know that your prized box will be kept under strict supervision. Dedicating a humi, cooler or cabinet to one particular box is probably a little inconvenient IMHO as well as the fact that temp. differences and RH differences may affect the final outcome of your cigar. At least by keeping it in a private locker you can be sure that the cigars are always at the perfect, constant 70/70. This again, is my personal opinion fathomed from the information I´ve gathered through my years as a smoker. I have never aged a box of cigars for longer than a year. As I said, it´s very relative. Heck, come to think of it... a cuban who smokes regularly will most probably tell you... If it tastes good... smoke it.


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

plexiprs said:


> I wonder why, no one seems to be establishing a business that is now buying new (young) quality cigars for aging and resale later. Aren't there places that do that with wines?


I've seen a few places in Europe that have aged stuff, maybe not en masse but enough to select from, and at a premium price. Oddball cigars may not rise too much, but BBF's or Monte 2's do jump up a lot with 8-10 years on them.


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## cigartexan (Jan 1, 2000)

Fredster said:


> Should they taste good young? Yes it would be nice.
> 
> Do they taste good young? No.
> 
> Will this change someday? Will they age tobacco longer before rolling? Probably not. Even if the tobacco is aged, the blend needs time to marry. There are no shortcuts like it or not.


The following I mean in the nicest way...Sounds like your palate has gotten a bit snobby. You may need a break :r




Fredster said:


> Is there another product that you buy that isn't usable (good) for many years? Hell yes. Evidently your not into wine. Wine and cigars are so similar. You can go into a wine shop and pick a bunch of popular wines that are too young to truely shine, or you can look around and maybe get some that already have some age. So many young wines are out of balance and too tannic. Cuban cigars are meant to age. It's all about the dollar with Cuba. They don't have time to sit on tobacco several years, they want the money now. This is the way it's always been. Some of the newer stuff needs less time than when I first started smoking Cubans 10 years ago, but still nothing is going to be truely great with a year or less. The tobacco is still fermenting and giving off ammonia (sick). You don't like it write a letter to Castro and complain. This hobby requires patience. Of course if you have enough money anything can be bought for a price, including aged cigars. It's still fairly easy to buy cigars from 98-01 that are not marked up much. Some of the popular smokes will never have much age (Monte #2's, Part. D4's,etc.). Either age them yourself or spend a lot of money for some already aged. If you think it's b.s. that they suck with only a few months age, then buy non-Cubans.


We should be able to drink the wine young to know weather or not to keep it for aging. It should have some good flavors, not stellar, but at least something you'll like in the years to come when it is stellar.

Cigars are the same way....listen to these folks, *they know!* Trust me 



Bruce said:


> Ok..here's my two cents.
> A cigar has to taste decent when young to get an idea of ageing potential. It may not taste the greatest, but you must be able to detect some good nuances that may suggest TO YOU that this cigar will improve with age.
> 
> Not all cigars get better with age so to speak. If you start out with a dog rocket and age it, will it taste better aged? Maybey, but there's a good chance that all you will end up with is an aged dog rocket.





OpusEx said:


> The following is absolutely and unequivocally just my :2
> 
> Well, Bruce beat me to the punch, but.........
> I too believe that the reason for smoking a young, off the truck or "fresh" cigar is to be able to see the potential in them (I'm going to leave the subject of defining "young" for another time, as it requires taking into consideration way too many variables (i.e. when was the cigar being boxed and box coded ACTUALLY rolled, when does the sick period start, from what crop is the leaf used in the cigar, etc.). Though young, these cigars should be able to give (and I say this without wanting to sound like some snob) the "experienced" smoker an idea of what may come with proper aging. While I believe the "true" flavors of a cigar are muted by it's "freshness" and strength due to youth, one can with some time and attention observe the things to come from a young cigar. If a cigar has nothing it is showing you when young (assuming it isn't sick), it is highly doubtful that it will show you anything with any amount of time. Now that said, some people enjoy the freshness of a cigar and the youthful taste and strength. If that works for them that is all that matters. One of the interests of this hobby to those who are passionate about it is how much better a cigar will get with time and at what point in time will it taste the best and at what point will it have started to diminish in benefit from time and ultimately not benefit at all or worsen due to time.
> ...


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## kvm (Sep 7, 2005)

Fredster said:


> Is there another product that you buy that isn't usable (good) for many years? Hell yes. Evidently your not into wine. Wine and cigars are so similar. You can go into a wine shop and pick a bunch of popular wines that are too young to truely shine, or you can look around and maybe get some that already have some age. So many young wines are out of balance and too tannic. Cuban cigars are meant to age. *It's all about the dollar with Cuba. They don't have time to sit on tobacco several years, they want the money now. This is the way it's always been.* Some of the newer stuff needs less time than when I first started smoking Cubans 10 years ago, but still nothing is going to be truely great with a year or less. The tobacco is still fermenting and giving off ammonia (sick). You don't like it write a letter to Castro and complain. This hobby requires patience. Of course if you have enough money anything can be bought for a price, including aged cigars. It's still fairly easy to buy cigars from 98-01 that are not marked up much. Some of the popular smokes will never have much age (Monte #2's, Part. D4's,etc.). Either age them yourself or spend a lot of money for some already aged. If you think it's b.s. that they suck with only a few months age, then buy non-Cubans.


Finally something I can wrap my head around. So cuba uses the tabacco before other manufacturers might consider it "ready". This would explain why a very young cuban cigar might taste good. However soon after as the tabacco which is not fully fermented starts to blend it causes the "sick period" Also the fact that the cigars were made with tobacco that was not fully fermented might explain why some think it may age better than an nc.

Am I getting close? 

This is an amazing thread! Hope we get more like this one.


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

cigartexan said:


> The following I mean in the nicest way...Sounds like your palate has gotten a bit snobby. You may need a break :r
> 
> We should be able to drink the wine young to know weather or not to keep it for aging. It should have some good flavors, not stellar, but at least something you'll like in the years to come when it is stellar.
> 
> Cigars are the same way....listen to these folks, *they know!* Trust me


Jack, Sorry if thats the way I came across. I think anyone that truely knows me, knows I'm the farthest thing from a snob. I do not care for young cigars. Too many dissapointments and wasted dollars on cigars that taste off or sick. If not liking young cigars and not willing to gamble if they are ready or not makes me a snob, then I guess I'm a snob.


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

kvm said:


> Finally something I can wrap my head around. So cuba uses the tabacco before other manufacturers might consider it "ready". This would explain why a very young cuban cigar might taste good. However soon after as the tabacco which is not fully fermented starts to blend it causes the "sick period" Also the fact that the cigars were made with tobacco that was not fully fermented might explain why some think it may age better than an nc.
> 
> Am I getting close?
> 
> This is an amazing thread! Hope we get more like this one.


Very well said. I really don't know anything about how N.C.'s age.I just developed a taste for Cubans very early and never went back to the N.C.'s. I have been gifted an Opus X Robusto from 1999 and it tasted much better than a young one. Still not my cup of tea though. I think in most cases the aging probably seems more dramatic with Cubans. Maybe some of the guys that age N.C.'s can comment more?


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

We should be able to drink the wine young to know weather or not to keep it for aging. It should have some good flavors, not stellar, but at least something you'll like in the years to come when it is stellar.

Cigars are the same way....listen to these folks, *they know!* Trust me [/QUOTE]

Trying a young wine to see if you should grab a case to age is one thing. It's quite another to always drink young wine and expect it to always be good. I'm not saying anyone is WRONG here Jack. I think you misunderstood. What I'm saying is, sometimes (not always) there are very few (if any) good notes on a young cigar, but it ages into something great. I could be entirely wrong, it's just that
a lot of times I do not enjoy a young cigar at all, and it turns into something great. Maybe some of the ones I'm talking about were sick? Maybe I'm just a picky S.O.B.? Maybe I don't have enough experience to detect the good things in a cigar thats not ready? In any case I don't feel like I've got my moneys worth. I don't feel bad trying one cigar before aging a box. I just think it's not realistic to expect young cigars to taste good all the time. I'd rather wait at least a year or two. I have not smoked any 05 cigars. Maybe they are altering them even more and they are not as bad as I think? I just know in the past more often than not I've been hugely let down smoking real young cigars. I will now shut the F. up.


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## Andyman (Jun 8, 2004)

Fredster said:


> I do not care for young cigars. Too many dissapointments and wasted dollars on cigars that taste off or sick. If not liking young cigars and not willing to gamble if they are ready or not


I have only been on this jourey a short time and this is how I feel as well.. Boy will I be surprised when I wait a few years and discover Habanos just arn't my thing.. :r


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## plexiprs (Nov 18, 2005)

The wine to cigar comparison is a good one. Are not there grapes that produce a wine known to be best after a certain number of years, versus drinkable and at its peak immediately? I don't believe that tobacco has had that same rigor applied to it's genetics and propagation.


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## OpusEx (Oct 31, 2003)

> I can only comment on what I saw in the Bahamas, and that was many boxes with only a cigar or two in them. I was there over a week and went in daily. Someone takes the last cigar and they simply open the sealed box underneath. They did not have more storage in back. This is probably not the norm, as many here have seen different elsewhere. I also don't think they had prices on the boxes. I had to ask everytime whats this cost or whats this. *Nobody working there seemed to be very knowledgable at all*.


Fredster, I'm not doubting in the least what you experienced. Especially the last comment in bold. I would fairly safely say that this is the case in 90% or more of the world's tobacconists (assuming you include the smokers discounts, smokers outlet, etc. of the world, let's not even get into the "other" types of business' that carry cigars, but don't even the littlest bit about them, like groceries and gas stations with mini marts, etc.). As a person who is as passionate about cigars as a hobby and as a business as I am, I hate this and am doing everything in my power to give the most people I can the ability to at the very least, speak to an informed (at least about the products I carry in a retail sense and offer as a manufacturer) individual.



> "If you like it, smoke it..."


That is without a doubt the bottom line! The problems start when you talk to others, share experiences and one party or maybe both begin to wonder if they might be missing something based on the other person's comments. Sometimes people become over zealous in their opinions in trying to help others. It's a natural occurrence when and if you are passionate about something. My personal rule is just to provide a person with an opportunity to smoke something I might like and then wait for their feedback. If we both come to some of the same conclusions great, if not, to each their own.



> A truly beautiful woman should be hot at 18 and at 40 years old


In your opinion I guess so, but in mine maybe she's much more attractive to me as an individual when she's 40 or when she's 18 and each and everyone of the individuals in the world will have their own take as well (albeit groups will form with like responses once a certain amount of opinions have been voiced) the same applies to cigars and isn't it great! lol



> That's the million dollar question will '05 production be smoking great in 20 years.


This is the question that has intrigued me the most and I have had sooooooo many conversations of extreme lengths of time (I'm talking 3-4 hours of phone call time in a night) with other people who I value their opinion on this. The general consensus of these conversations is still a "wait and see" attitude, but let's just say that the "wait and see" comments in those conversations were mostly "holding our breath" toned in hopes that they will, but not looking good right now based on experiences.



> I hear what your saying, but don't agree young smokes even taste decent sometimes. I've smoked some cigars I thought were pretty bad that turned into real gems. Monte Millenium Robusto is one that comes to mind. Smoked these pretty fresh, just to get an idea of what it would be like. Harsh, one noted, and tasted nothing like a Monte. Maybe I don't have enough experience to tell they had potential, but I know I did not enjoy them young. I now really like this cigar. Even if most are decent young, who the hell wants to pay top dollar for Cubans and smoke it when it's young or decent? I'll smoke stuff before aging like the Punch robusto just to see if I can guage some potential, but you just don't really know unless you're a phsycic. This is a lot different than buying a whole box of young cigars and smoking them all young, then complaining they should taste good. Used to think strong, harsh cigars age good and weaker blends don't. I now know this is not always the case. Some weak or bland cigars actually increase in flavor, strength , and richness. *My point is, it just seems crazy to smoke a cigar under a year or so. *Could be sick, and will not be anywhere near it's potential. Now I know you could say well Fred some of these cigars don't reach their potential for decades and you are smoking them too young at 4-10 years. It all comes down to what your personal tastes are and what your wallet can afford. Bottom line, should they taste good young?


Now you've got me confused here Fredster, first you aren't gonna smoke any young cigars based on your experience with the Monte Millennium, but you are gonna smoke a Punch robusto to see it's potential? The beauty of this hobby should be in trying them all young to gauge potential. Will some just out right suck, yes! Will some show some promise of things to come, absolutely! The ones that suck could be because of when you caught them (because you really don't know when the tobacco used is from crop wise, when it was rolled, how long it sat before it was boxed, etc.) If it sucked, put the rest down and try them periodically until it does show you something, if it never does, don't buy anymore. If they did show you something at first put them down and wait for them to become great (and by all means buy more to not touch at all and wait for them too). The problem with the comment in bold is that often the quick to act benefit and we as hobbyists can't afford to wait for a vendor to hold the cigars for a year because they aren't going to be there that long. In a perfect world for you and me and others like us we would love to have all the vendors hold boxes for a year (or until they were "ready" to smoke) and then we could try them. They aren't going to take a chance holding them they need to turn over their stock and should we not take a chance and possibly end up missing out on what WILL be a great cigar, but then find out it turned into one and then have to pay a big premium? Your last comment


> Bottom line, should they taste good young?


 is a relative one, I would define good as: I see promise in them, so do they taste good, yes they do, but they don't taste nearly good enough to waste smoking them now lol And on a side note, but of importance to our discussion here, how is it that everyone thinks the blend for a certain cigar is chosen? I can tell you that it's from different types of leaves being tried YOUNG in various amounts in fillers and with different binders and wrappers in many combinations to see if anyone of them strikes a chord with the people desiring to produce a new cigar. If they find one combination that works then it is made.



> also seriously hope that Havana isn't performing any monkey business on the "new" cigars to make them taste good now...


Unfortunately they are using "different" methods and one has to look no further than Alejandro Robaina's comments recently to validate this.



> To me it seems that each year stands alone and shouldn't be compared in a tasting to previous years crops. Is it good young and does it hint that it will improve over time is what I look for. After time retasting may show little or no improvement, or possibly loss of flavor, but the same cigar from a year ago may have improved 300%.


I couldn't agree more with this statement, but I'll even take it many steps further and say, who's to say we even know from month to month or box-to-box as to what crop is being used? What if they ran out of just ONE of the leaves used in the blend for a, let's say, Cohiba robusto. They would simply grab from the next lot (this might be from the next years crop in line to be used in rolling) and put it in the filler bunch.



> I like many cigars in their young period, and many later in their aging process. But everyone is different and it is hard to have an outstanding smoke that you know is 6-8 years aged, then accept its younger counterpart with a lesser flavor.


Agreed  Kinda my whole reason for jumping in on this thread



> I wonder why, no one seems to be establishing a business that is now buying new (young) quality cigars for aging and resale later. Aren't there places that do that with wines?


There are both formal business' and individuals who are doing this very thing, but if one takes the time to try something new and has the ability to judge for themselves how it might develop over time, why would one want to pay an exorbitant price for what they could have accomplished on their own?



> Some cigars may start developing after 10-15 years but they will most definitely get weaker.


Couldn't DISAGREE with this statement more.



> At least by keeping it in a private locker you can be sure that the cigars are always at the perfect, constant 70/70.


So, I'm to believe that the majority of the tobacconists who I have already made the statement above are not knowledgeable should be trusted to keep my cigars at what I consider the optimum temp. and humidity (not 70/70 BTW) better than I can, knowing how passionate I am about my cigars and my proclivity for being anal-retentive when it comes to them? lol



> So cuba uses the tabacco before other manufacturers might consider it "ready".


Cuba is not the ONLY one doing this. I would say MOST are rushing the process for the chase of the almighty $, as I mentioned in my previous post and provided an example of a NC, which was obviously not smokeable, but the manufacturer was putting out on the market.



> I have been gifted an Opus X Robusto from 1999 and it tasted much better than a young one. Still not my cup of tea though.


Still not YOUR cup of tea is the theme here that remains constant. As my username suggests, I used to be a big fan of the OpusX (the Ex was added some years back when I jumped (notice I did not use the word "slide" LOL down the slope committing myself completely). I did at one time do an age testing, putting aside 3 OpusX of the same vitola and having one each year on a certain day (my birthday) and did notice the aging effect. It did mellow out and change flavor delivery some, but what I had always found appealing about the OpusX was gone. I enjoyed the big sweet and nuttiness it delivered with "force." My take on this after years of smoking is that most, if not all NC's just do not age in a way that I see a benefit, which I am personally going to enjoy. However, I do see it with a cuban cigar.



> Trying a young wine to see if you should grab a case to age is one thing. It's quite another to always drink young wine and expect it to always be good.


Well, I'd always expect it to be good to some (even the slightest) extent, if I thought it was good/showed potential from the first time I tried it. The key here I think is what defines "good enough to smoke" in an individuals eyes and I think you, jack, bruce and others ARE on the same page here. It seems, though I'm not entirely sure from all of your posts on this subject that at least most of the time you are unwilling to try anything and everything when you think it is young and again, we really have no way of defining exactly what young is. Yes we could put a time frame on it, as you have by saying that you would prefer to only smoke cigars that are at least one year old. Again, I will reiterate, how exactly do any of us know what cigar is exactly one year old? or any age for that matter? I say that because even though the box stamp tells you the cigars in the box are from one year ago. Was the tobacco used to make those cigars from one year ago or 5 years ago. When were those cigars rolled? How long did they sit before they were put into that box? All variables we have no idea the answers to unless WE were actually there for every single step in the process.



> I'm not saying anyone is WRONG here Jack.


I don't think anyone is saying anyone else is wrong here. This is a great topic for discussion and has endless opinions. It's one of the things that makes this hobby so damn interesting and exciting to talk with like minded individuals about (and by like minded I just mean that we are all passionate about cigars, not that we agree).



> I think you misunderstood. What I'm saying is, sometimes (not always) there are very few (if any) good notes on a young cigar, but it ages into something great. I could be entirely wrong, it's just that a lot of times I do not enjoy a young cigar at all, and it turns into something great. *Maybe some of the ones I'm talking about were sick? Maybe I'm just a picky S.O.B.? Maybe I don't have enough experience to detect the good things in a cigar that's not ready? *


The comments in bold I believe are part of the answer and add some of the things I have already covered in my rant to this point. Some could have been sick, you are a picky S.O.B. (but I am too  ), I honestly don't know having never smoked or talked with you at length before whether you do have enough experience and hell I'm not sure I do either. What I do think it's safe to say is that I believe there might be varying levels of experience with respect to different cigars and of different age.



> I'd rather wait at least a year or two.


As long as any individual is willing to take the risk of paying a premium for those smokes or even the possibility of none being available at original offering price that's their cross to bear. I would prefer to try them myself and get them right away if I think it's worthwhile. To each their own.



> I just know in the past more often than not I've been hugely let down smoking real young cigars.


Given your tastes I would expect nothing less! You prefer (and I personally think with good reason) an aged smoke. So what I think you might be confusing yourself with is that YOU need to go into smoking a young cigar with a totally different approach. Not looking at the now, but looking at the future. Then you will not be setting yourself up for large let down, as I think you have been to this point.



> I will now shut the F. up.


Nah, don't do that. This is the kind of conversation that there should be more of, this is what it is all about!

I apologize if I repeated anything anyone else posted since I started writing this, as it took quite a while. I also certainly did not mean to step on anyone's toes. All my responses are just my opinion and nothing personal is intended. Ok, now I will go back to my little room and shut the F. up


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## Andyman (Jun 8, 2004)

Wow that was a mouthfull... I will have to go back and read it again.



OpusEx said:


> Unfortunately they are using "different" methods and one has to look no further than Alejandro Robaina's comments recently to validate this.


Can you point me to what it is that Robaina said???


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## Andyman (Jun 8, 2004)

I find this thread interesting.. It moves beyond what’s better, fresh or aged.. It starts to touch on what it means to be a cigar connoisseur. Now I cannot really relate to being able to tell if a fresh cigar will be a classic in 10 years or just another cigar. I figure if it is good now it will probably get better with time. I have a couple boxes of 10 and the rest of my collection are singles. So when I smoke one I may have one or two, or zero left. I don't always have the luxury of having more to test a year later. It seems that this is a long journey that may take a lifetime to play out. In a year or two I may calm down and just buy full boxes and have developed my palate enough to pick out a potential classic. For now I go by what I like.. But it seems to get the most from this hobby we need to pay our dues and enjoy the fresh smokes and analyze what they may be telling us, good or not so good. 

In reflection to this.. It's either good, or it's not good. It's dried up rolled leaves. I have never been one to overanalyze anything I don't think I will start now. I am not one to pick out hints of 7 year old burnt... You guys know the line. Enjoy your cigars as you see fit. just my :2


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

That is without a doubt the bottom line! The problems start when you talk to others, share experiences and one party or maybe both begin to wonder if they might be missing something based on the other person's comments. Sometimes people become over zealous in their opinions in trying to help others. It's a natural occurrence when and if you are passionate about something. My personal rule is just to provide a person with an opportunity to smoke something I might like and then wait for their feedback. If we both come to some of the same conclusions great, if not, to each their own.


> I agree 100%. I am very passionate about cigars. Could be an Italian thing also. If I have come across over zealous in my effort to help someone new to this hobby, I sincerely apologize. Like I said earlier, I have never had a mentor with Cubans like some have had. I've learned mostly by trial and error. If I can help someone by saving them the frustration of buying and smoking sick cigars, I'm going to try. I give out damn near as many cigars as I smoke sometimes.
> 
> Now you've got me confused here Fredster, first you aren't gonna smoke any young cigars based on your experience with the Monte Millennium, but you are gonna smoke a Punch robusto to see it's potential? The beauty of this hobby should be in trying them all young to gauge potential. Will some just out right suck, yes! Will some show some promise of things to come, absolutely! The ones that suck could be because of when you caught them (because you really don't know when the tobacco used is from crop wise, when it was rolled, how long it sat before it was boxed, etc.) If it sucked, put the rest down and try them periodically until it does show you something, if it never does, don't buy anymore. If they did show you something at first put them down and wait for them to become great (and by all means buy more to not touch at all and wait for them too). The problem with the comment in bold is that often the quick to act benefit and we as hobbyists can't afford to wait for a vendor to hold the cigars for a year because they aren't going to be there that long. In a perfect world for you and me and others like us we would love to have all the vendors hold boxes for a year (or until they were "ready" to smoke) and then we could try them. They aren't going to take a chance holding them they need to turn over their stock and should we not take a chance and possibly end up missing out on what WILL be a great cigar, but then find out it turned into one and then have to pay a big premium? Your last comment is a relative one, I would define good as: I see promise in them, so do they taste good, yes they do, but they don't taste nearly good enough to waste smoking them now lol And on a side note, but of importance to our discussion here, how is it that everyone thinks the blend for a certain cigar is chosen? I can tell you that it's from different types of leaves being tried YOUNG in various amounts in fillers and with different binders and wrappers in many combinations to see if anyone of them strikes a chord with the people desiring to produce a new cigar. If they find one combination that works then it is made.
> 
> ...


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## kvm (Sep 7, 2005)

Does there seem to be any correlation between how good a cigar is "young" and how well it ages? For example I lot of people seem to like PSD4's and Boli PC's before they hit the sick period. Do they seem to age as well or benefit as much as cigars that generally speaking most people don't like young?


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

kvm said:


> Does there seem to be any correlation between how good a cigar is "young" and how well it ages? For example I lot of people seem to like PSD4's and Boli PC's before they hit the sick period. Do they seem to age as well or benefit as much as cigars that generally speaking most people don't like young?


The newer D4's (after 2000) don't seem like they age that great to me. I had some I sat on for 4 or 5 years and they still didn't taste as good as they did brand new. I like the boli P.C.'s with a couple years. Most of the ones I've had with less were still a bit harsh for my tastes. I've had Boli P.C.'s in cabs that still smell of ammonia at 1 1/2 years. I don't think you can say there is an absolute correlation, but some of the cigars that really taste good young like a Hoyo D.C. and Epi #1 don't age well. On the other hand most people i know and myself think V.Robaina cigars are pretty decent young, but they age very well. I think It's different for every cigar.


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## Bruce5 (Jul 27, 2003)

I just want to say everyone here is WRONG!

Kidding. Great to see so many of my friends on one thread. 

The first 2 things that come right off the bat to me is that taste is
subjective. I like foigras... don't even know if I can spell it, but I like it.
Other people may not, same thing with cigars. Next, there was no real 
clear definition of young. Less than 1 year, less than 5 years. 

I agree with the comment made by a few that if there isn't some taste
of merit early in the cigar's life, then there will not be later on. I am not saying that the cigar tastes good young, but perhaps there is a flavor or nuance found to be somewhat pleasing that one may expect as it ages and 
the youth leaves... that flavor can develop. Best example for me is I do not like any young RAs, to me they taste like soap. There is however some type of underlying spice that appeals to me. To me they age very well... the spice comes forward, the soap goes away. I have some from 02, 03 and 04 that I am aging, but I just bought some from 95 that I can't wait to smoke. 

As far as my experience, which is nowhere near as long as some of these guys, I liker cigars to have atleast 5 years on them. I spend a lot of 
time seeking out cigars that have 10, 20 or 30 years on them. Basically,
and for the most part, I prefer the taste of these older cigars than ones with
a year or two on them.


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## emgjet (Jan 1, 2000)

I have had times in which Habano's were good smokes fairly young. They do improve in flavor and character profile with some age to them. Some that were not good when they were young, did develope into fine smokes with 1-2years age on them. Though I believe the Habano's age better than other cigars, it is best to let Habano's sleep a bit to get rid of that "sick period" that many of them have.
On the other hand, I do believe that cigars can be over-aged. Though I don't practice aging cigars for more that 4-7 years, I remember being gifted cigars that had over ten years age on them and I found them to be less tasteful.

:ms


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## dadof3illinois (Nov 7, 2004)

Wow, some great information here!!! I'm a very young habano smoker compared to most of you guys posting on this thread but I think everyone is missing something here. We are all different and have different tastes. What I like and what Fredster or Bruce like are two different things.

Should a cigar smoke good young, I think it should. Hell I've found s few young cigars that I like with 8months to a year on them. Those are the ones yoy get another box of just to age a bit. But if a cigar taste like :BS when it's young I'm not going to waste time and storage room just waiting for a dog rocket to become an old dog rocket.

Most of you here have so much more experience with cuban cigars than I do but that doesn't mean you know what I will like or what's best for me.

I usuall don't say too much but it's way too cold out today to be outside so the next best thing was to start posting on CS.....LOL

Okay, now all the FOG's can flame me....:r


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## habanaman (Feb 11, 2006)

Bruce5 said:


> I just want to say everyone here is WRONG!
> 
> Kidding. Great to see so many of my friends on one thread.
> 
> ...


I am agree with you about 1or 2 years .But not 20 years .I wont smoke a live cigar not a died cigar!!

Like you tolk you are a smoker of Davidoff cuban or Dunhill English scholl

habanaman


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## shakespeare (Mar 10, 2005)

Now this is a thread I can learn alot from. Great thread actually. It´s good to see each person´s opinion on what smoking cigars is all about. The whole crux of the journey itself.


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## Hbooker (Jan 1, 2000)

Man Barney you can type a post kinda like reading a book....love ya man..

I would be more than happy to put my 2cents in here also.

The answer that I have expereinced to the question, Should Habanos Taste Good Young?
Is that Most of the ones I have had that were "fresh" as in this current years production have been downright great. While at the same time the vitolas that are similar that were rolled in 98, or earlier are even better to a "sublime level" 
If you get my nuances.

I preffer good cigars, and last year I had what I thought to be the best fresh Coros, untill this last week. I grabed a VR Unicos and they where phenominal in thier own way.

I believe that the answer is Yes they should taste good, and if they do they can only taste better with a good age on them. As to how to best age tem, well thats another topic, and the manufacturers debate that quite often amongs themselves...

If your gonna have one, make it a great one!
Mike


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## Andyman (Jun 8, 2004)

mosesbotbol said:


> A bit ethereal... What kind analogy could we compare women to in your definition? Is Sharon Stone still young then?


u


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## Dandee (Feb 20, 2006)

Bump...just because there is a lot of good information in here for newbs like me. 

While I agree that almost all cigars will get better with age, being new to Habanos most of the ones I smoke are fairly fresh (less than a year.) My current buying to smoking ratio is 8 to 1, so in another five years I will have a stash of aged smokes. 

I wish I could buy all aged cigars but frankley I can't afford it. Given that what do you like young? Here is my list of young cigars I like (again I expect them only to get better with age.  )

Trini Reyes
HdM Epi#2
PSD4 if not sick
H Upmann Mag 46
Fonseca Cadets


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## Dandee (Feb 20, 2006)

MRN would be very disapointed in me.:sl


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## jgros001 (Jun 14, 2005)

Dandee said:


> Bump...just because there is a lot of good information in here for newbs like me.
> 
> While I agree that almost all cigars will get better with age, being new to Habanos most of the ones I smoke are fairly fresh (less than a year.) My current buying to smoking ratio is 8 to 1, so in another five years I will have a stash of aged smokes.
> 
> ...


I've had some Sept '05 Epi 2s that were very nice - I think these will be very creamy and smooth with age though. All the trini reyes I've had were '05 and damn good can't even imagine these 5 years old...but I'll have to get back on that.


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## One Lonely Smoker (Jan 21, 2005)

shakespeare said:


> At least by keeping it in a private locker you can be sure that the cigars are always at the perfect, constant 70/70. This again, is my personal opinion fathomed from the information I´ve gathered through my years as a smoker.


 Haha, you would HOPE. To me this is a fallacy. Personally, I would always rather store my own cigars. What makes you think that a B&M would always have your cigars at a perfect "70/70"?
(And who would want them kept like that?) In my opinion, placing your cigars at a B&M leads to the problems often associated with any retail store, the labor pool today consists mostly of mouth-breathing, spoiled brats who I wouldn't let hold my dic...Er, sorry. I mean, the B&M won't make any promises to you about your cigars condition. Sorry again, I mean they may promise you the moon, but reality is likely to be a little different, I should think. I think as a customer we ASSUME that locker storage there means perfect conditions. A mall store in Tallahassee had a dispute over a broken air conditioner that went on for weeks. The AC broke, and the Smoke and Snuff guy was freaking out, and the mall people said, "Oh, it's definitely going to be awhile, perhaps as long as a week." All he could think of is all his inventory ending up with beetle holes in it. Point is, you have to worry about AC, burst pipes, roaches, mice, pilferage, other people's stash beetling your stash....why trust anyone to do your aging for you. I know I wouldn't. And once people start aging cigars, they generally are not setting up a system for "one box of cigars". They are usually way past that. The real trouble is having ENOUGH coolers to do the job, IME. No thanks. I will trust my cigars to no one but me. Mostly because when I sell my entire stash to Dave, he would expect me to have kept them perfectly.


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## johninct (Jan 8, 2006)

Fredster said:


> Tobbaconists are unlikely to have open boxes of aged cigars out.


I was in the Bahamas in Nov. I bought a lot of 5-10 year old sticks with me from home. I also bought a single cigar to smoke every night from the Havana Humidor Store. I grabed stuff that I did not currently have for the most part. All you have to do is flip the box over and look at the date. The singles they were selling went as far back as 1998 on some of the less popular smokes. I smoked 1998 Boli Petits and 2001 Punch Manarcas. Diplo # 4 and 5 from 01 and 02. Boli Immensas from 2002. The mature stocks were not separated from the 05 stuff. It's the same whether you order online or you are picking some singles somehwere. The only young cigar I smoked was an 05 Upmann #2. Been a while since I had one so I gambled. You know what? It tasted like shit and I tossed it halfway through. First inch or so not too bad then it quickly developed some nasty funky notes from it's youth. Young cigars are rarely very good.[/QUOTE]

That was helpful. I'm at Atlantis once a year and bring my own. I stop in the HH store almost every day to browse and occasionally buy. I'll be looking for the aged singles. Thanks.


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## Bruce5 (Jul 27, 2003)

johninct said:


> All you have to do is flip the box over and look at the date.


QUOTE]

FYI: While this may not always be true, many times they
refill the old box. Cigars are not necc the age indicated.

This is even done at LCDH.


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## TU09 (Mar 26, 2006)

A true newb question; are all Habanos released fresh? I know some NCs are factory aged for several years before being released but don't know much about ISOMs.


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## MoTheMan (May 24, 2003)

TU09 said:


> A true newb question; are all Habanos released fresh? I know some NCs are factory aged for several years before being released but don't know much about ISOMs.


They used to. Used to be that cigars in Havana factories would age at least 6 mos., and maybe even as much as 2 years before release. Today, with the rush to get product to market and turn over inventory (and therefore improve cashflow), you're lucky if the cigars have sat in an aging room more than 6 weeks.


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## KraZieMaN55 (Oct 2, 2005)

This is one hell of a discussion. Threads (discussions) like this really make me glad to be a member of this forum. So much rich insights of personal feelings from such articulated people with so much knowledge really is going to make this a mainstream cigar forum on the net if it not already is. Bravo to Fredster, LasciviousXXX, Jgros001 and all the rest who contributed to this discussion. Keep on ranting Fredster.


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## Baric (Jun 14, 2006)

jgros001 said:


> I am starting a new thread for this topic because I do not want to hijack a thread that mentioned this.
> 
> I will start with my opinion. I would say no. One of the reasons I like this hobby so much is that it is not instant gratification. It takes patience. I enjoy the discussion...when do you think this cigar will be smokeable? The chase....is it good yet....is it great yet? I think for me this would not have the same appeal if aging wasn't necessary. No need for the extra humidors/cabinets.
> 
> ...


Ive heard that there is a general rule of thumb in the world of habanos and that is (personal taste exempt) you are meant to either smoke a habano within one month of its production
or anywhere after a year of its production. In the intervening 11months you catch the cigar in its period of sickness where the tastes are trying to marry but have not achieved it properly yet. of course, it is then up to individual opinion whether you prefer fresh [up to month] or aged cigars [after a year].
there are also exceptions to this rule, like the monte #2, which most people believe smokes well whenever.


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## MoTheMan (May 24, 2003)

Baric said:


> Ive heard that there is a general rule of thumb in the world of habanos and that is (personal taste exempt) you are meant to either smoke a habano within one month of its production
> or anywhere after a year of its production. In the intervening 11months you catch the cigar in its period of sickness where the tastes are trying to marry but have not achieved it properly yet. Of course, it is then up to individual opinion whether you prefer fresh [up to month] or aged cigars [after a year]. There are also exceptions to this rule, like the monte #2, which most people believe smokes well whenever.


I find that young cigars are sometimes good for up to 3-4 months of release then they go into a sick period which can last up to 12-14 months. After that they start

But then I find there's a second, less pronounced, "aging" period, when cigars will smoke good but won't really start hitting its marquee till 3-5 years of age.


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## BigVito (Jan 1, 2000)

Im'm likely in the top 3 for ignorance, but I think how the tobacco is farmed has more to do with flavor then aging. It's been in my limited experience that aged or young both have the ability to be good or suck. I had been gifted aged cigars that were great, but I had "young" cigars that were great too. 99 out of 100 doesn't make it golden. :sb


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## Boston_Dude05 (Oct 10, 2006)

Great thread. As a Newb who just tried a few ISOMs, I gotta say aging helps which is somewhat of a disappointment since you can't enjoy them right away, but at the same time it adds an interesting element to this hobby. When you finally have that aged ISOM, there's going to be a sense of satisfaction in preparing it properly.


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## j6ppc (Jun 5, 2006)

Dunno. Just smoked a SEP '06 ERDM Grandes de Espana.
Prettty f'n good right off the truck. Age might help but damn.... mmmmmm good...


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## LiteHedded (Apr 10, 2005)

my 06 RASS are outstanding as well!


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

j6ppc said:


> Dunno. Just smoked a SEP '06 ERDM Grandes de Espana.
> Prettty f'n good right off the truck. Age might help but damn.... mmmmmm good...


God this thread won't die. There are a lot of 06 cigars that are tasting pretty good fresh, even better than 05's. Part SD#4 and Cohiba Siglo 11's are two that I keep hearing people say are good. I have tried the 06 D4's and they are not sick for sure. They are smoking pretty decent, but as with ANY Cuban cigar, age will improve these. These are nowhere near the same league as my 2000 D4's. Not sure why some 06 cigars are tasting better fresh than they used to in years past. I assume they are aging tobacco longer before rolling or the cooking process has been altered again. The only experience I have with the Grande Espana is some 98's. They were bland and boring. I have nothing against ERDM, but this cigar doesn't seem to age as good as others from the line. This may be one of those very few cigars some may prefer younger. I still think if you smoke this cigar in a year or two it will definately improve. 8-10 years may make it a bland stick though. The best ERDM out there for the money is the 1983 Panatela Largas that are still around. So much more rich and flavorfull than the Espana's.:2


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## dadof3illinois (Nov 7, 2004)

Fredster said:


> God this thread won't die. There are a lot of 06 cigars that are tasting pretty good fresh, even better than 05's. Part SD#4 and Cohiba Siglo 11's are two that I keep hearing people say are good. I have tried the 06 D4's and they are not sick for sure. They are smoking pretty decent, but as with ANY Cuban cigar, age will improve these. These are nowhere near the same league as my 2000 D4's. Not sure why some 06 cigars are tasting better fresh than they used to in years past. I assume they are aging tobacco longer before rolling or the cooking process has been altered again. The only experience I have with the Grande Espana is some 98's. They were bland and boring. I have nothing against ERDM, but this cigar doesn't seem to age as good as others from the line. This may be one of those very few cigars some may prefer younger. I still think if you smoke this cigar in a year or two it will definately improve. 8-10 years may make it a bland stick though. The best ERDM out there for the money is the 1983 Panatela Largas that are still around. So much more rich and flavorfull than the Espana's.:2


I have to agree that the 83 Panatela's are full of flavor, actually kinda suprised me because ERDM is a milder brand, at least that's what I've found.

You brought up a good point, is it longer aging of the tobacco or are they cooking it different than before. Do you believe that "cooking" the tobacco has an ill effect or just speed up the aging process?


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

dadof3illinois said:


> I have to agree that the 83 Panatela's are full of flavor, actually kinda suprised me because ERDM is a milder brand, at least that's what I've found.
> 
> You brought up a good point, is it longer aging of the tobacco or are they cooking it different than before. Do you believe that "cooking" the tobacco has an ill effect or just speed up the aging process?


The 83 panatela is rich and med strength right from the first puff.

As far as how aging will be affected with the 06's only time will tell. Some of these 06 cigars are definately smokable now, but I still stay with stuff that has 3-5 years age minimum. I just smoked an 06 Siglo 11 tubos and it was not bad. What I find with these cigars is yes, there are no off or bad tastes, but they lack complexity. In other words they taste pretty much the same start to finish. Hopefull age will bring out more nuances like it does with the cigars before 06. I still have no trouble finding stuff with a few years age. I understand some of the very popular stuff like D4's you can't find with any age and have to do it yourself. My 06's are napping while i puff on stuff that is mature, but thats just my tastes.


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## dadof3illinois (Nov 7, 2004)

Fredster said:


> The 83 panatela is rich and med strength right from the first puff.
> 
> As far as how aging will be affected with the 06's only time will tell. Some of these 06 cigars are definately smokable now, but I still stay with stuff that has 3-5 years age minimum. I just smoked an 06 Siglo 11 tubos and it was not bad. What I find with these cigars is yes, there are no off or bad tastes, but they lack complexity. In other words they taste pretty much the same start to finish. Hopefull age will bring out more nuances like it does with the cigars before 06. I still have no trouble finding stuff with a few years age. I understand some of the very popular stuff like D4's you can't find with any age and have to do it yourself. My 06's are napping while i puff on stuff that is mature, but thats just my tastes.


Do you think it's possible that the 06's will mature faster? Seems that if aged stock was used to produce last years crop then less aging time may be required? But on the other hand if they "cooked" the crop so it matures and becomes better at 2-3 years instead of 5-7 years, what are your thoughts on the long term effect of the "cooked" tobacco?


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## JJG (Oct 16, 2006)

My cab of Party shorts from oct06 tasted great right off the truck but now, several months later, they taste pretty "sick"

Smoke them fresh or let them sit for at least a year.

In the interest of full disclosure, I'm a total newb when it comes to Habanos but I can say from personal experience that conventional wisdom holds true in this instance.


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## dyj48 (May 1, 2006)

Wow, great, great thread, should be a sticky here. I have to admit, as a newbie, I've really enjoyed the majority of Cuban cigars I've had, but there's been enough exceptions to that to make me want to put them away for a while. Just had a VR Don Alexandro that was just incredible from 05, now I'm thinking I need to hold most of them for a few more years.


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

dadof3illinois said:


> Do you think it's possible that the 06's will mature faster? Seems that if aged stock was used to produce last years crop then less aging time may be required? But on the other hand if they "cooked" the crop so it matures and becomes better at 2-3 years instead of 5-7 years, what are your thoughts on the long term effect of the "cooked" tobacco?


I really don't know enough about the whole fermentation process and that aspect of Habanos to comment. I would speculate that any time aging is sped up it, will not age as well. This has held true for me, especially where packaging is concerned. Cabinet and Tubos cigars age slower and better than dress boxes. Any time the process is sped up whether it be higher humidity, more oxygen or airflow, or higher temps, the result is not as good aging. Maybe they will be ok and just mature and peak quicker? The blend and strength on some of these 06's seem excellent for sure.


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## dadof3illinois (Nov 7, 2004)

Fredster said:


> I really don't know enough about the whole fermentation process and that aspect of Habanos to comment. I would speculate that any time aging is sped up it, will not age as well. This has held true for me, especially where packaging is concerned. Cabinet and Tubos cigars age slower and better than dress boxes. Any time the process is sped up whether it be higher humidity, more oxygen or airflow, or higher temps, the result is not as good aging. Maybe they will be ok and just mature and peak quicker? The blend and strength on some of these 06's seem excellent for sure.


I agree, or at least common sense tells me this should be true. I just hope that in 5-7 years this 06 crop turns out to be something special.


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## Stonato~ (Dec 22, 2006)

Now this is fun. Really. Can't find this assortment of opinions and expertise in any book. 
Quite simply, having smoked the same cigar fresh and with 10 years of age I can't understand how there can be any question of which is better. I think it is nice however to smoke a cigar periodically over a term to explore how it changes. This is one of the most beautiful things about this love affair of ours.
Instead of starting a new thread I was hoping to get some quick info on a related topic which I've seen referenced many times in this thread. This is 'the sick period' or a cigar being 'sick'. This is very interesting to me as on several occasions and most recently after investing in a box of my favorites, I've become nauseous almost imediately after lighting. I know these cigars, and have had many with no problems (and it's not the strength). I understand if they are not fermented long enough this can happen. Can someone please explain this to me, and ultimately how much minimum time in the humi will improve this? ...or are they just doomed? I don't want to waste another one before the time is right. Thanks, and once again Great Thread!!!


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## Bigwaved (May 20, 2006)

Stonato~ said:


> Now this is fun. Really. Can't find this assortment of opinions and expertise in any book.
> Quite simply, having smoked the same cigar fresh and with 10 years of age I can't understand how there can be any question of which is better. I think it is nice however to smoke a cigar periodically over a term to explore how it changes. This is one of the most beautiful things about this love affair of ours.
> Instead of starting a new thread I was hoping to get some quick info on a related topic which I've seen referenced many times in this thread. This is 'the sick period' or a cigar being 'sick'. This is very interesting to me as on several occasions and most recently after investing in a box of my favorites, I've become nauseous almost imediately after lighting. I know these cigars, and have had many with no problems (and it's not the strength). I understand if they are not fermented long enough this can happen. Can someone please explain this to me, and ultimately how much minimum time in the humi will improve this? ...or are they just doomed? I don't want to waste another one before the time is right. Thanks, and once again Great Thread!!!


Try this link


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## newcigarz (Feb 11, 2007)

I am always looking for anything with some Box age on it.


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## habanaman (Feb 11, 2006)

From my exsperince i can say that there is young and young.When you buy a box from the vendor usually is young but not fresch .My be is good and some time really has need of a little bit of time for to be better.
But if you can smoke a cigars jast made from a roller in the factory or from a torceador in some casa del habano in havana are usually GREAT !!! Cigars Mmuch time are much more better than aged cigars .

Angelo



jgros001 said:


> I am starting a new thread for this topic because I do not want to hijack a thread that mentioned this.
> 
> I will start with my opinion. I would say no. One of the reasons I like this hobby so much is that it is not instant gratification. It takes patience. I enjoy the discussion...when do you think this cigar will be smokeable? The chase....is it good yet....is it great yet? I think for me this would not have the same appeal if aging wasn't necessary. No need for the extra humidors/cabinets.
> 
> ...


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## MoTheMan (May 24, 2003)

habanaman said:


> From my exsperince i can say that there is young and young.When you buy a box from the vendor usually is young but not fresch .My be is good and some time really has need of a little bit of time for to be better.
> But if you can smoke a cigars jast made from a roller in the factory or from a torceador in some casa del habano in havana are usually GREAT !!! Cigars Mmuch time are much more better than aged cigars .
> 
> Angelo


A N G E L O ! !

Ssshhh! You'e giving away a great secret!!:w

It's true, a freshly made off the table cigar, from an experience torcedor, is its own unique experience and will beat some aged stuff hands down.
Fairly young ones can be pertty good too, usually in the first 2-3 months post rolling. After that they go into a sick period.

.
.
.

Also, IMO, I've found that wen I've purchased cigars from (reputable) Caribbean dealers (when I'm in the islands), something about the way the climate and general humidity of the islands affect the cigars (even if kept in a humidor), makes them taste waaaay fresher and nicer. Again, just MHO here.:cb


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## dadof3illinois (Nov 7, 2004)

MoTheMan said:


> A N G E L O ! !
> 
> Ssshhh! You'e giving away a great secret!!:w
> 
> ...


MO!!!!! So glad to see your still around.

I've never had the pleasure of a "Just off the table" fresh cigar so I don't know about how they would taste. But I do like several cigars young, not all but several.

What are your thoughts on the 06 tobacco?


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## OpusEx (Oct 31, 2003)

dadof3illinois said:


> You brought up a good point, is it longer aging of the tobacco or are they cooking it different than before. Do you believe that "cooking" the tobacco has an ill effect or just speed up the aging process?


After a bit of recent reading I'd like to share and maybe shed a little light on the "cooking" that has been referred to over the past couple of years with the introduction of Altadis to the Habanos SA fold. In a recent interview given by Eumelio Espino (Assistant Manager of the Tobacco Research Institute) he states that the "curing" process (the period after picking, but prior to fermentation) is not being "hurried" along, but that they are simply maintaining the optimum conditions and not allowing "mother nature" to possibly have drastic differentials in temp. and humidity over the curing time period. After much conversation and deliberation I believe this to be correct, so what we are seeing in todays production is not a falsely hurried along end product.

The aging process can only be sped up during fermentation or after (see http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showthread.php?t=29840&highlight=reduction), so I don't believe anything that is being done is having or will have an adverse affect on the aging potential. What we may be seeing is that with the time that has been had by the growers to refine their abilities with the new strains they are achieving larger yields and thus the cigars we are smoking of new production have had time to sit longer and age more.



> What I find with these cigars is yes, there are no off or bad tastes, but they lack complexity. In other words they taste pretty much the same start to finish. Hopefull age will bring out more nuances like it does with the cigars before 06.


Agreed, I have had some of the 06 production Boli RC's and CoRo's and while they were very nice smokes and had very nice flavor they didn't have me looking at the cigar now and then as I smoked it and saying "wow, now that was interesting." I was able to go about my business, enjoying the cigar no question, but never did I feel I needed to give it my full attention, as I sometimes like to do, so I could appreciate its changes, as I didn't detect any.



> Do you think it's possible that the 06's will mature faster? Seems that if aged stock was used to produce last years crop then less aging time may be required? But on the other hand if they "cooked" the crop so it matures and becomes better at 2-3 years instead of 5-7 years, what are your thoughts on the long term effect of the "cooked" tobacco?


The 06's are already more mature so, yes, less aging time is required to experience what we have in the past had to wait a few years to achieve. The question given Fredsters comments that I echo is whether the complexity will emerge with more time.



> It's true, a freshly made off the table cigar, from an experience torcedor, is its own unique experience and will beat some aged stuff hands down.
> Fairly young ones can be pertty good too, usually in the first 2-3 months post rolling. After that they go into a sick period.


I've seen this vary, but in general agree whole heartedly. I had the displeasure of smoking some fresh rolled (about 2-3 weeks) Taboada, Mons and Jorge sticks of varying vitolas a couple years back. All were less than impressive. After about 6 months a friend and I revisited these same sticks and what a wonderful experience it was :dr So, I would approach "custom rolled" cigars with a YMMV attitude, if not smoked immediately.


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

OpusEx said:


> After a bit of recent reading I'd like to share and maybe shed a little light on the "cooking" that has been referred to over the past couple of years with the introduction of Altadis to the Habanos SA fold. In a recent interview given by Eumelio Espino (Assistant Manager of the Tobacco Research Institute) he states that the "curing" process (the period after picking, but prior to fermentation) is not being "hurried" along, but that they are simply maintaining the optimum conditions and not allowing "mother nature" to possibly have drastic differentials in temp. and humidity over the curing time period. After much conversation and deliberation I believe this to be correct, so what we are seeing in todays production is not a falsely hurried along end product.
> 
> The aging process can only be sped up during fermentation or after (see http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showthread.php?t=29840&highlight=reduction), so I don't believe anything that is being done is having or will have an adverse affect on the aging potential. What we may be seeing is that with the time that has been had by the growers to refine their abilities with the new strains they are achieving larger yields and thus the cigars we are smoking of new production have had time to sit longer and age more.
> 
> ...


Good news on the cooking. I have always kind of doubted they were doing something different in the fermentation process. I've though all along it was merely better quality control and maybe the tobacco was sitting longer before rolling, but so many have been sure this was this case.


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## dadof3illinois (Nov 7, 2004)

With all that being said, it sounds like the 06 stuff should be really good? If they aren't "cooking" the crop and just doing a much better job at QA/QC during the curing and fermentation process do you think we should be looking foward to smoking some really good cigars with less age?
Instead of taking 5-7 years to start getting a mature complex cigar it may only take 3-5 years?


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## OpusEx (Oct 31, 2003)

dadof3illinois said:


> With all that being said, it sounds like the 06 stuff should be really good? If they aren't "cooking" the crop and just doing a much better job at QA/QC during the curing and fermentation process do you think we should be looking foward to smoking some really good cigars with less age?
> Instead of taking 5-7 years to start getting a mature complex cigar it may only take 3-5 years?


I didn't elaborate in my response, but I elude to the fact that I think the answer to your question is yes in a general sort of way. We are "enjoying" some really good cigars right now from 06, but as to whether these same cigars will "stand the test of time" and develop into complex experiences we can only wait and find out. The good news I think is that if the timeline is ahead of schedule from our usual time wait in the past we might/should know sooner with these recent production cigars. The bad news is that given the "ahead of schedule", *IF* they do develop into complex experiences, will they peeter out sooner if they are from a line that is known for not having very long term aging potential?


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## dadof3illinois (Nov 7, 2004)

OpusEx said:


> I didn't elaborate in my response, but I elude to the fact that I think the answer to your question is yes in a general sort of way. We are "enjoying" some really good cigars right now from 06, but as to whether these same cigars will "stand the test of time" and develop into complex experiences we can only wait and find out. The good news I think is that if the timeline is ahead of schedule from our usual time wait in the past we might/should know sooner with these recent production cigars. The bad news is that given the "ahead of schedule", *IF* they do develop into complex experiences, will they peeter out sooner if they are from a line that is known for not having very long term aging potential?


I never thought about that!! If they mature "ahead of schedule" then will they also loose complexity (sp) sooner? If that would be the case, you would need to adjust your smoking "timeline" up to meet the adjusted aging process.
This is going to take years to figure out!!!

With the farmers getting higher yields, I wonder if they are producing more cigars with it or taking this opportunity to age the extra tobacco longer?


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## OpusEx (Oct 31, 2003)

dadof3illinois said:


> With the farmers getting higher yields, I wonder if they are producing more cigars with it or taking this opportunity to age the extra tobacco longer?


I would think BOTH, but not necessarily on purpose in the latter case lol Higher yields to produce more cigars, but with limited (but probably ever increasing) rollers and other resources to make cigars.


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## LasciviousXXX (Oct 12, 2004)

OpusEx said:


> I didn't elaborate in my response, but I elude to the fact that I think the answer to your question is yes in a general sort of way. We are "enjoying" some really good cigars right now from 06, but as to whether these same cigars will "stand the test of time" and develop into complex experiences we can only wait and find out. The good news I think is that if the timeline is ahead of schedule from our usual time wait in the past we might/should know sooner with these recent production cigars. The bad news is that given the "ahead of schedule", *IF* they do develop into complex experiences, will they peeter out sooner if they are from a line that is known for not having very long term aging potential?


That's what I'm really worried about... well not so much worried about as thinking about lately. Having had some Monte's from the 70's that I believe were past their prime I wonder how the long term aging buyers will be affected with this change. Obviously one could say that this could affect the definition of the terms "aged" and "vintage" if this is the case. Hell soon we might start calling "vintage" anything over 10 years LOL.

Thanx for the ongoing info Marc, the community always benefits when you post in depth style thoughts.... you the man.


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## OpusEx (Oct 31, 2003)

LasciviousXXX said:


> I wonder how the long term aging buyers will be affected with this change.


With respect to lines that one knows stand the test of time better than others load up and wait and see (but don't load up tooooooo much), as for the lines that don't, easy does it and wait and see 

Unless of course your a craze*D* m*a*niac with un*K*limited resources then you just go ahead and *l*oad *u*p on everythin*G*.


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## LasciviousXXX (Oct 12, 2004)

OpusEx said:


> With respect to lines that one knows stand the test of time better than others load up and wait and see (but don't load up tooooooo much), as for the lines that don't, easy does it and wait and see
> 
> Unless of course your a craze*D* m*a*niac with un*K*limited resources then you just go ahead and *l*oad *u*p on everythin*G*.


That seems to be the general consensus for the regular non Crazed Maniac Smokers LOL. Stock up and see how it goes. Either way we'll end up with some fantastic smokes in just a few short years at the least, and at the most we'll end up with some "Epic" smokes in 10+ years.

There's so much to be said for recent production crop that it would seem that the smart money (at the moment) is to stock up on new stuff and stock deep while smoking your aged stock until the new stock matures.


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## Fredster (Jan 26, 2004)

The Montes I've had from the 70's were not past their prime. Maybe storage played a part in this? I've had Especials in cello, #2 Dunhill sel., and #1 from the 70's that still had lots of zip. The #2 was stronger than the new ones!



LasciviousXXX said:


> That's what I'm really worried about... well not so much worried about as thinking about lately. Having had some Monte's from the 70's that I believe were past their prime I wonder how the long term aging buyers will be affected with this change. Obviously one could say that this could affect the definition of the terms "aged" and "vintage" if this is the case. Hell soon we might start calling "vintage" anything over 10 years LOL.
> 
> Thanx for the ongoing info Marc, the community always benefits when you post in depth style thoughts.... you the man.


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## LasciviousXXX (Oct 12, 2004)

Fredster said:


> The Montes I've had from the 70's were not past their prime. Maybe storage played a part in this? I've had Especials in cello, #2 Dunhill sel., and #1 from the 70's that still had lots of zip. The #2 was stronger than the new ones!


That's possible Fred. I've only had experience with the Monte Especials in cello from the 70's and every one I had had an INTOXICATING aroma but the flavor of the smoke was just kinda .... eh. Smoked a couple with Greg and Mo at last year's SoCal and they both said the same thing, great aroma but little to no flavor. Its very possible that storage played a part in that.

The oldest No 2 I've had was 85 and it was Damn fantastic. The same goes for the Dunhill Seleccion Suprema, mid 80's. I can't imagine the 70's one being stronger... I would be in heaven LOL


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## dadof3illinois (Nov 7, 2004)

If I only had more "means"........:r . After a ton of saving I think I've finally got more cigars than kids... .


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## OpusEx (Oct 31, 2003)

LasciviousXXX said:


> There's so much to be said for recent production crop that it would seem that the smart money (at the moment) is to stock up on new stuff and stock deep.


Just keep in mind to keep the "stocking up" to appropriate levels given whether the specific item you are stocking up on has the ability from what you might know now about the line to "stand the test of time."



> The Montes I've had from the 70's were not past their prime. Maybe storage played a part in this? I've had Especials in cello, #2 Dunhill sel., and #1 from the 70's that still had lots of zip.


I've experienced both results (past prime and not) and yes Fredster I do believe it was do to the way they were stored.


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