# And the law won...



## ActionAndy (Jul 9, 2008)

So I recently acquired my first box of habanos. I was pretty pumped but I'm a bit paranoid about it, evidently. Last night I had a nightmare about being jailed because my purchase had been tracked*. It was actually sort of a funny dream because Judas Priest kept playing (Breakin' the lawwww).

So this isn't a post about how or where to get cubans, and it isn't about whether or not it's legal for me to have them or smoke them, but I do have a question. How often do people get caught for this? And with the internet and the way things can be tracked, why aren't more people getting caught? Do they actually not care all that much?

*I'm a bit of a conspiracy theorist.


----------



## nhlfan (Oct 16, 2008)

As an "aquirer" of certain items that may or may not be considered "gray market", you can be assured that if you have recieved said items, you are OK. The worse that could happen to you is that your shippment would get held up in customs and seized, and you MAY get an inquiry about it from a customs agent. Now I'm not sure what the penalties are, but I'm sure that you would get nothing more than a slap on the wrist. That being said, unless you have ordered like 200 boxes and they all come in one shipment, you are 99.9% safe. It's no different than coming back from Canada with Cuban's, they make you throw them away and send you on your way.



ActionAndy said:


> So I recently acquired my first box of habanos. I was pretty pumped but I'm a bit paranoid about it, evidently. Last night I had a nightmare about being jailed because my purchase had been tracked*. It was actually sort of a funny dream because Judas Priest kept playing (Breakin' the lawwww).
> 
> So this isn't a post about how or where to get cubans, and it isn't about whether or not it's legal for me to have them or smoke them, but I do have a question. How often do people get caught for this? And with the internet and the way things can be tracked, why aren't more people getting caught? Do they actually not care all that much?
> 
> *I'm a bit of a conspiracy theorist.


----------



## Blueface (May 28, 2005)

ActionAndy said:


> So I recently acquired my first box of habanos. I was pretty pumped but I'm a bit paranoid about it, evidently. Last night I had a nightmare about being jailed because my purchase had been tracked*. It was actually sort of a funny dream because Judas Priest kept playing (Breakin' the lawwww).
> 
> So this isn't a post about how or where to get cubans, and it isn't about whether or not it's legal for me to have them or smoke them, but I do have a question. How often do people get caught for this? And with the internet and the way things can be tracked, why aren't more people getting caught? Do they actually not care all that much?
> 
> *I'm a bit of a conspiracy theorist.


I'll tell you what, as I sit in the evenings and sip on my bottle of Havana Club that I brought back from Cozumel, while I enjoy cigar that also should not be with me (not from Cozumel as not much legit there), I sure as heck don't ruin the moment by worrying about it.
Even if the odds were a million to one, or make that a billion to one, or whatever, you may at one point be "the one".
If it worries one to do something, don't do it.


----------



## Scimmia (Sep 22, 2006)

nhlfan said:


> As an "aquirer" of certain items that may or may not be considered "gray market", you can be assured that if you have recieved said items, you are OK. The worse that could happen to you is that your shippment would get held up in customs and seized, and you MAY get an inquiry about it from a customs agent.


False. The OFAC can (and have) asses penalties equal to the value of the items purchased and, if the infraction is severe enough, pursue criminal charges. It doesn't happen often, and criminal charges are only in very extreme cases, but it happens.


----------



## piperman (Sep 8, 2005)

ActionAndy said:


> So I recently acquired my first box of habanos. I was pretty pumped but I'm a bit paranoid about it, evidently. Last night I had a nightmare about being jailed because my purchase had been tracked*. It was actually sort of a funny dream because Judas Priest kept playing (Breakin' the lawwww).
> 
> So this isn't a post about how or where to get cubans, and it isn't about whether or not it's legal for me to have them or smoke them, but I do have a question. How often do people get caught for this? And with the internet and the way things can be tracked, why aren't more people getting caught? Do they actually not care all that much?
> 
> *I'm a bit of a conspiracy theorist.


If I wanted to gamble with 200+dollars I would just go to Vegas might when more.


----------



## Gromulin (Oct 24, 2008)

So "The Letter that should be ignored" is the outcome 99% of the time?


I've always thought that if I ever got one, I'd reply with:

"Thank you for alerting me to this OBVIOUS credit card fraud attempt. I will contact my CC company and have the charges reversed post-haste."

:ss


----------



## audio1der (Mar 8, 2006)

Gromulin said:


> So "The Letter that should be ignored" is the outcome 99% of the time?
> 
> I've always thought that if I ever got one, I'd reply with:
> 
> ...


I love it! :tu


----------



## jledou (Jul 18, 2008)

Listening to podcasts this summer there were a few people that had received letters and/or fines this summer but they were for purchases they had made back in 2005/2006 time frame. 

Just move every 2-3 years and you should be able to stay ahead of the G-men.


----------



## elderboy02 (Jun 24, 2008)

jledou said:


> ...
> Just move every 2-3 years and you should be able to stay ahead of the G-men.


:r That is funny.


----------



## wharfrathoss (Dec 27, 2006)

Gromulin said:


> I've always thought that if I ever got one, I'd reply with:
> 
> "Thank you for alerting me to this OBVIOUS credit card fraud attempt. I will contact my CC company and have the charges reversed post-haste."
> 
> :ss


just an friendly FYI...

if this is the route you choose to take, *you'll* be the one committing fraud. credit card co's take it pretty seriously & they'll investigate. depending on the amount of the charge in question, you might be charged w/a felony.

i realize the whole situation is hypothetical, but just thought i'd mention it.


----------



## nhlfan (Oct 16, 2008)

Scimmia said:


> False. The OFAC can (and have) asses penalties equal to the value of the items purchased and, *if the infraction is severe enough*, pursue criminal charges. *It doesn't happen often*, and criminal charges are only in very extreme cases, but it happens.


They will not pursue criminal charges for a box of cigars, as I said, unless you are having a couple hundered boxes shipped to you, you will be fine. They really are looking to bust people who are bringing them in for resale, not personal use. However, legally they could do all of the above, but in reality, they won't.

All you have to say is "I didn't know they were CUBAN cigars. Why does the government let me have access to these illegal websites anyway? They are supposed to hold my hand and protect me anyway? Obama said so! Will I be getting my $200 back via the "illegal internet sales and scams" bailout plan? I was also hoping to get back the $10,000 I sent that nice man in Nigeria".


----------



## Hermit (Aug 5, 2008)

Gromulin said:


> So "The Letter that should be ignored" is the outcome 99% of the time?
> 
> I've always thought that if I ever got one, I'd reply with:
> 
> ...


NO! Do NOT ignore "the letter."
There are two types of letters.
One is a warning letter; consider yourself lucky.
The other asks you to incriminate yourself and
provide details. Those who have ignored the "bad letter"
were assessed a penalty by default. Consult a lawyer.


----------



## SeanGAR (Jul 9, 2004)

nhlfan said:


> They will not pursue criminal charges for a box of cigars, as I said, unless you are having a couple hundered boxes shipped to you, you will be fine. They really are looking to bust people who are bringing them in for resale, not personal use. However, legally they could do all of the above, but in reality, they won't.


*
From the 9/29 OFAC enforcement report (there are many more like this):*

_One individual has agreed to a settlement totaling $500.00 for allegedly dealing in property in which Cuba or a Cuban national had an interest: In January 2005 and April 2005, the individual allegedly purchased Cuban-origin cigars offered for sale on the Internet. The individual did not voluntarily disclose this matter to OFAC._

*You don't need to have purchased a couple of hundred boxes of cigars to get in trouble with the man.*

If you bring them across the border yourself you are probably right that a box or two will be confiscated without criminal penalty.


----------



## Snake Hips (May 30, 2008)

ActionAndy said:


> So I recently acquired my first box of habanos. I was pretty pumped but I'm a bit paranoid about it, evidently. Last night I had a nightmare about being jailed because my purchase had been tracked*. It was actually sort of a funny dream because Judas Priest kept playing (Breakin' the lawwww).
> 
> So this isn't a post about how or where to get cubans, and it isn't about whether or not it's legal for me to have them or smoke them, but I do have a question. How often do people get caught for this? And with the internet and the way things can be tracked, why aren't more people getting caught? Do they actually not care all that much?
> 
> *I'm a bit of a conspiracy theorist.


The justice department website lists about 14 penalties issued this year for embargo violations. Most of them for the Iranian embargo.

More people aren't getting caught because, as was mentioned, they don't really give a damn about the box of cigars here and there unless they happen to catch it in customs because it's like from Hong Kong and says "Cuban Cigarz 2 U" on it. They catch most people by credit card records, but they don't have the time, patience or budget to pursue the origin of every $150 charge made to consulting firms in Geneva. They look for the bigger (more rewarding) fish by persuing _big_ and/or consistant, multiplicitous charges to Switzerland, Hong Kong, Canada, the Canary Islands, etc. The people who do get The Letter get it years after the incident and, I suspect, probably have purchased collections of a scope I can only dream of. That's not the rule of course - people do get caught on the smaller scale, so don't fool yourself. But I don't worry about it. A credit card with no name on it and a couple of boxes here and there makes me feel pretty safe. If not, a few-hundred-dollar fine at most is unfortunate, but what are you going to do? Put the check in the mail and use the letter to light a Montecristo A.


----------



## ActionAndy (Jul 9, 2008)

Thanks for all the answers guys. To be clear I'm not really all that terrified of it, it was just a bizarre dream that got me thinking.


----------



## Gromulin (Oct 24, 2008)

I've come to the conclusion that the biggest risk is if they become legal. 

You can be sure that MAJOR taxes would be applied, like in Canada. 

THEN the treasury will be losing sweet, sweet tax dollars, and have a sudden interest in e-commerce transactions. BIG TIME.

Odd world we live in, eh?


----------



## bobarian (Oct 1, 2007)

Discussing these topics in a public forum is not particularly enlightened.


----------



## Hermit (Aug 5, 2008)

bobarian said:


> Discussing these topics in a public forum is not particularly enlightened.


This is discussed *openly* on *many* forums, complete with pictures.
What you say on a cigar forum is not evidence.
Your credit card records are.


----------



## DPD6030 (Jul 13, 2008)

Hermit said:


> This is discussed *openly* on *many* forums, complete with pictures.
> What you say on a cigar forum is not evidence.
> Your credit card records are.


Hmm...just a thought. I know that kids on [email protected] have posted pics. of them with alcohol and weapons and were slammed by the local police/prosecutor for minor in possession of alcohol and if a felon then felony in possession of a firearm. Not to mention subpoenas for personal accounts to access emails, chat, and photos. So I would say that if you post pictures you could be opening yourself up to the possibility.


----------



## pipermacbean (Jun 25, 2008)

to openly admit on a pulic internet forum "hey I'm breaking the law here" is a dumb idea in my opinion. If it doesn't bother you to break the law (a whole other philosophical discussion) I certainly wouldn't attract attention to myself... it's almost like saying "yeah I did it but what are you gonna do about it?" If you have contraband I would just keep it to yourself... "nope, nothing to see here folks... but thanks for stopping by... I do think the neighbor has some fireworks tho"

my:2


----------



## Snake Hips (May 30, 2008)

DPD6030 said:


> Hmm...just a thought. I know that kids on [email protected] have posted pics. of them with alcohol and weapons and were slammed by the local police/prosecutor for minor in possession of alcohol and if a felon then felony in possession of a firearm. Not to mention subpoenas for personal accounts to access emails, chat, and photos. So I would say that if you post pictures you could be opening yourself up to the possibility.


That's true, but getting into technicals, it's not illegal to be in possession in this situation. And, from a law enforcement point of view, minors with illegal firearms > adults with communist tobacco. Which would you focus resources on?


----------



## DPD6030 (Jul 13, 2008)

Snake Hips said:


> That's true, but getting into technicals, it's not illegal to be in possession in this situation. And, from a law enforcement point of view, minors with illegal firearms > adults with communist tobacco. Which would you focus resources on?


I do agree with you on this as I have a law enforcement view as well. It is illegal to be in possession of illegal firearms and communist tobacco. However, the government is way to busy focusing on terroristis threats and the such. Budgets are being cut and jobs are being lost every day. I don't think they could possibly enforce everything but I wouldn't be free advertising that thread of "Oh look what I just bought with photos and everything". Again just my :2


----------



## floydpink (Feb 15, 2007)

Blueface said:


> I'll tell you what, as I sit in the evenings and sip on my bottle of Havana Club that I brought back from Cozumel, while I enjoy cigar that also should not be with me (not from Cozumel as not much legit there), I sure as heck don't ruin the moment by worrying about it.
> Even if the odds were a million to one, or make that a billion to one, or whatever, you may at one point be "the one".
> If it worries one to do something, don't do it.


Good advice right there from a brother who knows a thing or two about people committing fraud. :tu


----------



## Hermit (Aug 5, 2008)

So I spose we shouldn't oughtta have a "Habanos Discussion" forum.


----------



## Snake Hips (May 30, 2008)

DPD6030 said:


> I do agree with you on this as I have a law enforcement view as well. It is illegal to be in possession of illegal firearms and communist tobacco. However, the government is way to busy focusing on terroristis threats and the such. Budgets are being cut and jobs are being lost every day. I don't think they could possibly enforce everything but I wouldn't be free advertising that thread of "Oh look what I just bought with photos and everything". Again just my :2


I agree. I don't really get the people saying its unwise to discuss this (which I suppose it is) when people post "My latest order" threads with their United States locations under their avatars and photographic proof of the goods. But what I was getting at is that by the law it isn't illegal to _possess_ communist tobacco, so even if you took of picture of yourself holding a box of Cuban Cohibas and a sign with your location and username on it, law enforcement technically couldn't do anything until they could prove how you got the stuff. For this reason I have a feeling OFAC agents probably spend more time browsing credit card records for overseas charges than they do cigar forums for Americans taking pictures of Cuban cigars, because _having_ them is not illegal while _acquiring_ them is. Jim Bob of Bumfuk, Georgia making a charge to a Habano vendor in Switzerland > a picture by Jim Bob of Bumfuk, Georgia of box of Habanos. But still, I agree with you about the discretion; I would avoid giving anybody any kind of possible leverage if I were breaking the law.


----------



## Hermit (Aug 5, 2008)

Snake Hips said:


> But still, I agree with you about the discretion; I would avoid giving anybody any kind of possible leverage if I were breaking the law.


Me, I don't want none of them things anyway, 
I'm just a law abiding pipe smoker.


----------



## tfar (Dec 27, 2007)

A friend of mine (seriously) recently got a box confiscated coming from Australia. They said it was illegal and assesses the value at $150 or less. Proves how little they know. They said he could dispute the charges posting a "bail" of said amount first. Now this is even more ridiculous than the embargo. What kind of banana republic are we living in???

First they go through your personal records without a warrant and without alerting you to it. This should be illegal. Then they confiscate your goods and to top it of, before you dispute it you would have to make a deposit of the same value as the goods.

Doesn't anybody else find this totally appalling? In my eyes this is not a state of law.

Till


----------



## Snake Hips (May 30, 2008)

tfar said:


> A friend of mine (seriously) recently got a box confiscated coming from Australia. They said it was illegal and assesses the value at $150 or less. Proves how little they know. They said he could dispute the charges posting a "bail" of said amount first. Now this is even more ridiculous than the embargo. What kind of banana republic are we living in???
> 
> First they go through your personal records without a warrant and without alerting you to it. This should be illegal. Then they confiscate your goods and to top it of, before you dispute it you would have to make a deposit of the same value as the goods.
> 
> ...


Huh? If he posts the "bail," does he get the cigars back? If that's what you're saying, that's kind of ridiculous and a little self-defeating. But about searching records - they're not really personal records. They're the credit card company's, and the government can do whatever they want with semi-public corporate records in regards to illegal activity. I don't know how you would dispute it. You live in a country where a certain product is illegal, you make a charge to recieve certain product, and on top of it they even _have_ the certain product that has the name of the country of origin all over it in their hands as it was en route to you. What would you be disputing? The only thing I'm finding "apalling" here is the "bail," which is because I don't really understand it.


----------



## Cigary (Oct 19, 2007)

Mine are sent to me sans cigar bands that happen to look like,,,wait for it,,,,cigars! Go ahead and inspect these cigars Mr. Customs Man and if you can tell what kind of cigars these are then why the hell are you working for customs when your palate is so trained to tell the difference between one cigar and another that you could be a trained "taster" in different fields like wine, coffee, etc. where the big money is? 

I get my bands in a different letter so I can play dress up with them so everybodys happy. Im happy, the retailor is happy and Mr. Customs Man gets to smell or taste something else.


----------



## tfar (Dec 27, 2007)

Snake Hips said:


> Huh? If he posts the "bail," does he get the cigars back? If that's what you're saying, that's kind of ridiculous and a little self-defeating. But about searching records - they're not really personal records. They're the credit card company's, and the government can do whatever they want with semi-public corporate records in regards to illegal activity. I don't know how you would dispute it. You live in a country where a certain product is illegal, you make a charge to recieve certain product, and on top of it they even _have_ the certain product that has the name of the country of origin all over it in their hands as it was en route to you. What would you be disputing? The only thing I'm finding "apalling" here is the "bail," which is because I don't really understand it.


That's the thing. He wouldn't even get the cigars back if he posted the "bail". That makes it even worse. You are right in that there is nothing to dispute in the actual cigar case, of course. That's clear cut.

However, I am not so sure in terms of your CC records. Usually the companies are not allowed to divulge personal information to third parties. It is personal information what you bought where for how much money. The state should not be able to look into your accounts without a warrant. The fact that they do is a violation of privacy in my eyes.

I also think that his case was not based on a CC record but simply on the fact that they opened the package. It was marked candle samples. First I thought, that is smart because different size cigars would look like candle samples when x-rayed. But candles are much heavier than cigars, so that's probably what made them suspicious. The vendor made good on their guaranteed delivery policy, so my friend didn't lose any money.

Till


----------



## Hermit (Aug 5, 2008)

tfar said:


> The vendor made good on their guaranteed delivery policy, so my friend didn't lose any money.
> 
> Till


Just a little sleep.


----------



## Snake Hips (May 30, 2008)

tfar said:


> That's the thing. He wouldn't even get the cigars back if he posted the "bail". That makes it even worse. You are right in that there is nothing to dispute in the actual cigar case, of course. That's clear cut.
> 
> However, I am not so sure in terms of your CC records. Usually the companies are not allowed to divulge personal information to third parties. It is personal information what you bought where for how much money. The state should not be able to look into your accounts without a warrant. The fact that they do is a violation of privacy in my eyes.
> 
> ...


Hmm, that is kind of wierd. That's pretty bunk to me.

I see what you're saying about those records being private, but the government still maintains that right. It's kind of violatory, but they can look at credit card records, phone records, etc. whenever they feel like it. C'est la vie.

Yeah, if they intercept the package, you're pretty hosed. Can't say myself what made them open it though. Packages from Switzerland clearly marked "CIGARS" get through fine, so I don't know what system they use to determine whether or not they open it. I'm picturing a conveyor belt with a little robotic arm that pushes every 10th package or so into the "inspect" bin, like the mechanism that shoots the unqualified candy bars off the conveyor belt at the candy facory, haha.


----------



## Scimmia (Sep 22, 2006)

Snake Hips said:


> That's true, but getting into technicals, it's not illegal to be in possession in this situation.


With the current laws, I don't believe that's true. It's not just importation or purchase, you are not even technically allowed to accept a gift while overseas of a Cuban product.


----------



## NCRadioMan (Feb 28, 2005)

Scimmia said:


> With the current laws, I don't believe that's true. It's not just importation or purchase, you are not even technically allowed to accept a gift while overseas of a Cuban product.


Nowhere in the law does it state that it is illegal to possess or smoke them. If you can find it, please post it. This has been gone over many times. If you don't believe me, believe poker.
http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1866500#post1866500
http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1865909&postcount=331
http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1866016&postcount=343
http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1866186&postcount=356
http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1866500&postcount=369


----------



## Scimmia (Sep 22, 2006)

NCRadioMan said:


> Nowhere in the law does it state that it is illegal to possess or smoke them. If you can find it, please post it. This has been gone over many times. If you don't believe me, believe poker.
> http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1866500#post1866500
> http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1865909&postcount=331
> http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1866016&postcount=343
> ...


And yet "dealing in or engaging in any transactions" includes any means that could be used to acquire said product. When people have cigars that weren't even available before these rules went into effect, that is a de-facto violation in front of any judge in the country, the simple fact that you have them is proof enough that you engaged in an illegal transaction. Now since these rules are new as of 2004, you can argue any cigars that were available before then could potentially have been acquired through legal means; I don't know if box codes would be enough to show they were made/acquired after that.


----------



## Snake Hips (May 30, 2008)

Scimmia said:


> And yet "dealing in or engaging in any transactions" includes any means that could be used to acquire said product. When people have cigars that weren't even available before these rules went into effect, that is a de-facto violation in front of any judge in the country, the simple fact that you have them is proof enough that you engaged in an illegal transaction. Now since these rules are new as of 2004, you can argue any cigars that were available before then could potentially have been acquired through legal means; I don't know if box codes would be enough to show they were made/acquired after that.


That's why I said "getting into technicals." Of course by having them you acquired them somehow, but they need the proof of transaction to charge you. Of course I wouldn't rest a case on that, but the point stands that it isn't illegal to possess them.


----------



## Scimmia (Sep 22, 2006)

Snake Hips said:


> but they need the proof of transaction to charge you.


Ownership is all of the proof they need. I had a friend from college that worked in parking enforcement, he wrote a guy a ticket one time for driving on the grass when he was parked there. The guy challenged it with the same argument, nobody actually SAW him drive on the grass. The fact that he was parked on the grass was enough proof that he drove on the grass to get there.


----------



## Snake Hips (May 30, 2008)

Scimmia said:


> Ownership is all of the proof they need. I had a friend from college that worked in parking enforcement, he wrote a guy a ticket one time for driving on the grass when he was parked there. The guy challenged it with the same argument, nobody actually SAW him drive on the grass. The fact that he was parked on the grass was enough proof that he drove on the grass to get there.


No, I agree with you. Like I said, I wouldn't rest a case on it - no judge would hear your malarky with that kind of defense. All I was saying was that possession in and of itself isn't illegal.


----------



## Gromulin (Oct 24, 2008)

Scimmia said:


> Ownership is all of the proof they need. I had a friend from college that worked in parking enforcement, he wrote a guy a ticket one time for driving on the grass when he was parked there. The guy challenged it with the same argument, nobody actually SAW him drive on the grass. The fact that he was parked on the grass was enough proof that he drove on the grass to get there.


But as it relates to this "hypothetical" situation, unless one is served a search warrant, then proof of would be lacking. What would the probable cause be for a search warrant? CC records? Not likely. Sounds like they hope you volunteer to waive the 5th amendment, via The Letter, or try to pin you with a arbitrary fine. Good luck with that.

I'm unclear on how they would enforce that fine, since at the most, they would have a record of an e-commerce transaction of questionable origin.


----------



## Scimmia (Sep 22, 2006)

Gromulin said:


> But as it relates to this "hypothetical" situation, unless one is served a search warrant, then proof of would be lacking. What would the probable cause be for a search warrant? CC records? Not likely. Sounds like they hope you volunteer to waive the 5th amendment, via The Letter, or try to pin you with a arbitrary fine. Good luck with that.
> 
> I'm unclear on how they would enforce that fine, since at the most, they would have a record of an e-commerce transaction of questionable origin.


I don't know, maybe pictures posted on a public forum under the title "Look what I just bought!"?

As far as the Letter, they had more than just a record of a CC transaction, they had specifics about exactly what was bought when.


----------



## One Lonely Smoker (Jan 21, 2005)

elderboy02 said:


> :r That is funny.


Funny hell, how do you think I have stayed out front?


----------



## miana_silvius (Jan 6, 2008)

ActionAndy said:


> Thanks for all the answers guys. To be clear I'm not really all that terrified of it, it was just a bizarre dream that got me thinking.


Dreams make us think all kinds of crazy things...especially when they feel so real. LOL

life should have a soundtrack!


----------

