# U.S. trade embargo with Cuba prohibits even smoking a Havana cigar . . . in London!



## RPB67 (Mar 26, 2005)

Los Angeles, January 3 - Our new list of best-priced international retailers posted last Friday drew a lot of attention and some questions. The most obvious came from reader K.S.:

"Your wording [in Friday's story] suggests that [Cuban] cigars are able to be purchased by U.S. citizens except for the three sites with 'staggeringly low prices' which ended up being arms of the Cuban government.

"Did I read correctly . . . Or are Cubans off limited for U.S. citizens (for the time being)."

Forget it, K.S. There is no way for U.S. citizens to buy Cuban cigars legally.

In fact, the current regulations issued by the U.S. Treasury's Office of Foreign Asset Control (OFAC) go so far as to be preposterous. But the regulations, in force since September 30, 2004, state clearly:

"There is now an across the board ban on the importation into the United States of Cuban-origin cigars and other Cuban-origin tobacco products, as well as most other products of Cuban origin. This prohibition extends to such products acquired in Cuba, irrespective of whether a traveler is licensed by OFAC to engage in Cuba travel-related transactions, and to such products acquired in third countries by any U.S. traveler, including purchases at duty-free shops. Importation of these Cuban goods is prohibited whether the goods are purchased directly by the importer or given to the importer as a gift. Similarly, the import ban extends to Cuban-origin tobacco products offered for sale over the Internet or through the catalog [or] mail purchases."

This should make it clear to anyone who cares to pay attention that Cuban cigars may not be purchased or received by U.S. citizens. But the regulations don't stop there:

"The question is often asked whether United States citizens or permanent resident aliens of the United States may legally purchase Cuban origin goods, including tobacco and alcohol products, in a third country for personal use outside the United States. The answer is no."

In other words, you were breaking U.S. law when you bought and smoked that Cuaba last summer in London at the Davidoff shop! This is the state of the much-tightened embargo under the Bush Administration.

And although enforcement is obviously going to be spotty, some of our readers notified us that customers of some of the shops we listed in our survey of international retailers had received letters from the U.S. government concerning their purchases. This is why we note that this survey is for the benefit of our international readers only.

We had one retailer who was angry about his ranking, but we note that our compilation method was simplicity itself: we picked out four cigars for pricing, compiled the posted prices for 93 sites over two days and averaged the results. That's how stores were ranked. The next review of international cigar retailers will take place during the summer.


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## DriftyGypsy (May 24, 2006)

Good morning Richard, I just quoted that article in another thread.


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## Twill413 (Jul 19, 2006)

Preposterous. Another great find Richard. I would love to see this one enforced sometime. Just not on me  . It borders on insanity to think that the US Government thinks it should have the right to stop one of its citizens from purchasing AND consuming a completely legal product outside the US, simply because it is illegal within the borders. Absurd, makes me want to take a trip to the Bahamas and practice a little passive resistance...


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## donp (Mar 5, 2006)

True it is preposterous, and on many levels utterly ridiculous but, it also points out that there is something broken in the treasury department. Enforcement notwithstanding, for me what rankles is the notion that someone (another american) would tell me (an american) what I can and cannot do when I am outside the country. If I break a law in another country I am subject to that country's laws, and not united states law. There are sovereinty issues here and personal liberty issues here as well. 
If the author of the responses is correct then this issue is becoming more and more outrageous.


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## IHT (Dec 27, 2003)

this is nothing new. it's always been like this. even if you're outside the US, you're not supposed to buy/smoke cuban cigars (or other goods from cuba). 

the policy hasn't changed.


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## croatan (Mar 23, 2005)

donp said:


> True it is preposterous, and on many levels utterly ridiculous but, it also points out that there is something broken in the treasury department. Enforcement notwithstanding, for me what rankles is the notion that someone (another american) would tell me (an american) what I can and cannot do when I am outside the country. If I break a law in another country I am subject to that country's laws, and not united states law. There are sovereinty issues here and personal liberty issues here as well.
> If the author of the responses is correct then this issue is becoming more and more outrageous.


It has been that way since the embargo was signed. The only thing that has changed recently is that you may no longer bring back two boxes from OFAC-licensed visits and the fully-hosted option is no longer available.


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## LSUTIGER (Jan 13, 2004)

Twill413 said:


> take a trip to the Bahamas and practice a little passive resistance...


that was the story of my honeymoon   :w :al


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## Demented (Nov 7, 2006)

Thank's for the informative post.

With the U.S. trying to police the world... Is it any wonder they should dictate what it's citizens can buy for personal use while abroad, or search their mail?


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## Twill413 (Jul 19, 2006)

I know that this has been the policy since the embargo started decades before I was born, but that doesn't make it any less unreasonable. The fact that this statement would be made even though it is clearly utterly unenforceable is what is so striking.

I have not researched this at all, but does the US Gov't have a problem with me going to Amsterdam and smoking myself stupid and not trying to bring any pot back into the US? Not that I would, just seems vaguely similar being that it's something illegal inside the US and legal there.


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## fugwumpy-cl (Sep 14, 2005)

Twill413 said:


> I know that this has been the policy since the embargo started decades before I was born, but that doesn't make it any less unreasonable. The fact that this statement would be made even though it is clearly utterly unenforceable is what is so striking.
> 
> I have not researched this at all, but does the US Gov't have a problem with me going to Amsterdam and smoking myself stupid and not trying to bring any pot back into the US? Not that I would, just seems vaguely similar being that it's something illegal inside the US and legal there.


It's pretty ridiculous...but I think it's more a function of the intent of the embargo vs. legal/illegal substance(s).


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## gvarsity (Dec 12, 2006)

For the record this not the only behavior that the U.S. has regulations against for their citizens abroad. Among other things traveling to other countries to engage in sex acts forbidden in the United States specifically sex with minors is a criminal offence by U.S. law. Again hard to enforce but if you are dumb/sick and take pictures or something. I am also sure there are a ton of laws about conspiring against the government, evading taxes, whatever. The flip side is you are protected in large part from foriegn governments. Yes if you murder someone they can and will try you for murder in that country. For lesser offences they often times expel the person back to the United States. I don't know how it is recently since the Iraq war but prior to that a U.S. passport gave you a lot of protection in a lot of places for a lot of things. Just my :2


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## donp (Mar 5, 2006)

croatan said:


> It has been that way since the embargo was signed. The only thing that has changed recently is that you may no longer bring back two boxes from OFAC-licensed visits and the fully-hosted option is no longer available.


I was unaware of this mainly because I haven't been into the cigar hobby very long. Now that I am I seem to be experiencing delayed outrage  
Da noive a dem bums!! I'm mad as hell, and I can't take it anymore!!  
Really, it's shocking to learn this kind of lunacy has been going on for so long.
sigh


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## Terrasco (Nov 26, 2006)

donp said:


> I was unaware of this mainly because I haven't been into the cigar hobby very long. Now that I am I seem to be experiencing delayed outrage
> Da noive a dem bums!! I'm mad as hell, and I can't take it anymore!!
> Really, it's shocking to learn this kind of lunacy has been going on for so long.
> sigh


It just gets worse and it's bipartisan.


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

gvarsity said:


> For the record this not the only behavior that the U.S. has regulations against for their citizens abroad. Among other things traveling to other countries to engage in sex acts forbidden in the United States specifically sex with minors is a criminal offence by U.S. law.


Didn't someone on this board say their friend is going to Thailand for a vacation?


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## mosesbotbol (Sep 21, 2005)

Twill413 said:


> I have not researched this at all, but does the US Gov't have a problem with me going to Amsterdam and smoking myself stupid and not trying to bring any pot back into the US? Not that I would, just seems vaguely similar being that it's something illegal inside the US and legal there.


Of course they do... FYI, pot is illegal in NL; it's just "tolerated" by the government.


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## lenguamor (Nov 23, 2006)

AFAIC, when and if this government can accomplish something significant, like finding bin Laden, then they can worry about matters such as what its citizens smoke. Until then, they can blow me.


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## Airborne RU (Oct 7, 2006)

Pish-posh.

Free market for all.


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## punch (Mar 5, 2005)

lenguamor said:


> AFAIC, when and if this government can accomplish something significant, like finding bin Laden, then they can worry about matters such as what its citizens smoke. Until then, they can blow me.


And now blowing you would be legal. The Supreme Court has struck down sodomy laws as unconstitutional, but not a ban on what US citizens do abroad. So, if I am smoking a Cuban in my own bedroom, is this still illegal? Or do I have to define "smoking a Cuban" first If I ever wake up and the world around me makes sense, I think I will go back to sleep!

BTW - this was written in jest.


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## dillon157 (Nov 16, 2006)

Very interesting informaton. I had no idea that you could not legally buy and smoke a Cuban cigar in a foreign country (as a U.S. citizen)... 

This seems like good time though to clear something up that I had read in the Complete Idiot's Guide to Cigars. The author mentioned that many cigar smokers buy a box of cuban cigars in a 3rd country, remove the bands, and place them in a seperate box for personal use. According to how I read this, there is no way to actually tell whether a cuban is cuban or not without looking at the box (tax stamps, etc.) and the labeled band on the cigar. However, I talked to the father of a close friend (very knowledgeable cigar smoker) on New Years Eve and he mentioned that you can indeed tell by looking at the wrapper, cap, etc. (most of the time). What do you guys know about this?


I realize that this would still be moraly wrong, and illegal. The point of my post is to ask how you can authenticate a cuban cigar by looking only at the cigar.


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## IHT (Dec 27, 2003)

dillon157 said:


> This seems like good time though to clear something up that I had read in the Complete Idiot's Guide to Cigars. The author mentioned that many cigar smokers buy a box of cuban cigars in a 3rd country, remove the bands, and place them in a seperate box for personal use. According to how I read this, there is no way to actually tell whether a cuban is cuban or not without looking at the box (tax stamps, etc.) and the labeled band on the cigar. However, I talked to the father of a close friend (very knowledgeable cigar smoker) on New Years Eve and he mentioned that you can indeed tell by looking at the wrapper, cap, etc. (most of the time). What do you guys know about this?
> 
> I realize that this would still be moraly wrong, and illegal. The point of my post is to ask how you can authenticate a cuban cigar by looking only at the cigar.


first half of the paragraph - we're not suppose to discuss (openly) the practices of trying to smuggle illegal goods into the country/breaking the law, but i've heard (maybe seen) what you described being done.

last half of the paragraph - yes, you can tell by looking at a cigar if it's a cuban or non-cuban (sometimes even by smell). and if you've got enough experience, you can tell a real cuban from a fake cuban, although some fakes can come close to "looking" like a real cuban. <--- now, if you don't have any bands on, and they're in a generic box, most ppl outside the cigar world will have no fuggin clue what kind of cigar it is. you could say they were cheapy bundle "factory corojo's from cigarsinternational" and nobody would know the difference.


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## dillon157 (Nov 16, 2006)

Thanks.

I was in no way conisdering smuggling Cuban cigars into the United States, it would completely defeat the purpose of my desire to be in law enforcement. I was just a little curious after I read this in the forementioned book... especially after I had been told by one person that you could indeed tell the difference, especially by looking at the cap. Anyway, are there any posts about this that you could point me in the direction of. I just want to learn more about cigars... this is simply another topic to research. 

Again, Gracias.


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## Tristan (Jul 11, 2006)

Thanks for the post Richard. This law may say it's illegal, but the US could not enforce it; it wouldn't be constitutional. I talked to a lawyer about this a couple months ago and he said if they tried to prosecute someone for buying/smoking a cuban cigar outside the US it would get thrown out.


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## ATLHARP (May 3, 2005)

Great post Richard,

This proves that we have people in the U.S. government with way too much time on their hands.

Again, another waste of resources and manpower that could be used in tracking and (preferably) killing Al Qaeda members.

Despicable!

ATL


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## moki (Jan 12, 2004)

donp said:


> True it is preposterous, and on many levels utterly ridiculous but, it also points out that there is something broken in the treasury department. Enforcement notwithstanding, for me what rankles is the notion that someone (another american) would tell me (an american) what I can and cannot do when I am outside the country. If I break a law in another country I am subject to that country's laws, and not united states law. There are sovereinty issues here and personal liberty issues here as well.
> If the author of the responses is correct then this issue is becoming more and more outrageous.


First, this is nothing new -- this has been the case for decades regarding smoking a Cuban cigar outside of Cuba.

You are still a citizen of the USA regardless of where you are in the world, and the US government (your elected representatives) have decided to impose and maintain that Cuba is an enemy of the USA. As such, there is an embargo that prohibits US citizens from engaging in commerce with Cuba in any way. What piece of dirt you happen to be on doesn't matter.

There is plenty of precedence for this; for instance if you engage in a pedophiliac act outside of the USA, you can face prosecution in the USA. And it isn't just the USA that has such laws, this is the case in the majority of countries in the world in terms of having laws that affect citizens of said country regardless of where they are in the world at the time.

So by the letter of the law, there's nothing new about it, it's nothing exceptional, and it's actually quite common. I personally think it's stupid, because I think opening up trade with Cuba would hasten them along to a reformed government faster than anything else, but that's just me.


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## IHT (Dec 27, 2003)

dillon157 said:


> Anyway, are there any posts about this that you could point me in the direction of. I just want to learn more about cigars... this is simply another topic to research.
> 
> Again, Gracias.


look at the stickies at the top of this forum.


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## IHT (Dec 27, 2003)

ATLHARP said:


> This proves that we have people in the U.S. government with way too much time on their hands.
> 
> Again, another waste of resources and manpower that could be used in tracking and (preferably) killing Al Qaeda members.
> 
> ...


yeah, why wasn't JFK out looking for osama bin laden back then (when HE signed this damn embargo)?? it's all his fault, not GWBs!!!!
:c


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## taltos (Feb 28, 2006)

IHT said:


> yeah, why wasn't JFK out looking for osama bin laden back then (when HE signed this damn embargo)?? it's all his fault, not GWBs!!!!
> :c


He was too busy with Marilyn Monroe and getting us more deeply involved with Vietnam. In addition, he already had his stock of pre-embargo Cuban cigars. Paul


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## ATLHARP (May 3, 2005)

IHT said:


> yeah, why wasn't JFK out looking for osama bin laden back then (when HE signed this damn embargo)?? it's all his fault, not GWBs!!!!
> :c


I think the only thing JFK was looking for was another joint or some blond floozy to contract another STD from. :bn

ATL


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## IHT (Dec 27, 2003)

lol. how true (both of you).


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## ss396 (Sep 24, 2005)

i smoked it, but i didn't inhale. might work, huh?


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## [OT] Loki (May 24, 2006)

IHT said:


> yeah, why wasn't JFK out looking for osama bin laden back then (when HE signed this damn embargo)?? it's all his fault, not GWBs!!!!
> :c


Wasn't it the bush admin that recently tightened the rules about this? If I'm wrong.........well it won't be the first time


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## awesome1 (Dec 13, 2006)

To add to the insanity consder this, you go to Canada for a herf with some brothers up there. They all offer you a cuban cigar to enjoy, under US law you must decline that offering. I can imagine sitting there saying, no, Im sorry I am a US citizen and I cant smoke that..

Many of you bring up good point.. If you all really want change write to yourrepresentatives and tel them so. This is tpically an issue that doesnt get dealt with because frankly enough people dont seem concerned about it.. If our reps recieve 10,00 emails or letters on the subject they will start to realize that there is real concern over the issue in the US.. 

As most of you know I have been caught going to Cuba a couple times now and even tried to invoke my 5th amendment rights and was flat out told by customs i dont have those rights at the border.. As I was being detained and interrogated for 3 hours 2 bus loads of chinese were crossing the border with a friendly smile from customs saying welcome to America.. No search no nothing.. Yet Im a citizen and treated like a criminal car searched and all..


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