# wtf



## SmokinDragon

*The Prevent All Cigarette Trafficking Act of 2009 ("PACT Act") (S.1147) passed the Senate with a unanimous vote on March 11, 2010. It will now go back to the House of Representatives for a vote due to a slight difference in the bill. Once the House passes the new bill, President Obama will sign it into law. After Pres. Obama signs the bill, we will have 90 days until the bill takes effect. This legislation contains, among other bad ideas, a provision which would make ALL cigarettes, RYO and smokeless tobacco products nonmailable. *
*This law means you will no longer be able to purchase these products by mail-order, telephone order, or on the Internet, because the United States Postal Service, along with UPS, Fed-Ex and all other carriers will be prohibited by law from delivering your orders to you.*


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## commonsenseman

I don't even wanna say how much this pisses me off.


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## Jack Straw

If you smoke cigs can't you just order them from overseas? It's cheaper anyway. I used to do that all the time when I smoked them.


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## SmokinDragon

Jack Straw said:


> If you smoke cigs can't you just order them from overseas? It's cheaper anyway. I used to do that all the time when I smoked them.


*because the United States Postal Service, along with UPS, Fed-Ex and all other carriers will be prohibited by law from delivering your orders to you.*


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## FiveStar

SmokinDragon said:


> *because the United States Postal Service, along with UPS, Fed-Ex and all other carriers will be prohibited by law from delivering your orders to you.*


Well this really isnt the forum for it, but technically all CC orders that are delivered are prohibited by law, but they seem to get through somehow. I didn't realize folks ordered smokeless tobacco or cigs online. When I smoked, I just bought them at the gas station.

But yea, that sucks. If they go this route with cigars and pipe baccy, we could all be in deep doo-doo. Especially with the prices in some of the B&M's.


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## Dan-Hur

Is this just cigarettes and smokeless tobacco or are cigars in this, too? Either way, it's bullshit. I sense that certain less-than-perfectly-legal markets are going to see an upturn. What possible justification could they have for that bill? I must have missed the part of the Constitution that makes this part of their purview. It'd be one thing if they just wanted to have USPS(a government entity) stop mailing them, but they really have no business telling FedEx and UPS that they can't deliver a legal product from vendor to consumer.


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## Uelrindru

The revisions seemed to make some exceptions and in them the taxes and a bill of lading where discussed. It sounds like their just making sure that the places they're shipped to are paying the taxes correctly. I haven't been able to find the bill but it looks like the first step towards attempting, poorly, to solve the tax over the internet problem.


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## d_day

I haven't seen any mention of cigars so far. That doesn't mean it's not there though.

I read through the analysis, and it looks like the post office would actually need to inspect the packages to find out if they contain tobacco products. The post office would not get any increase in funding, so inspections of parcels would not increase. Also, as far as I know, it is still unlawful for anyone, including the postal service, to open first class mail without a warrant.

Still, this is BS.


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## IHT

this is the first i've heard of this... normally we hear about these whacked out bills before they're even close to being voted on.


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## Uelrindru

Also, this only applies to out of state sales of tobacco, so if you have a website that's physically in the same state, this doesn't apply.


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## Dan-Hur

Uelrindru said:


> Also, this only applies to out of state sales of tobacco, so if you have a website that's physically in the same state, this doesn't apply.


You wouldn't happen to know of any trustworthy Ohio-based cigar sites, would you?


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## DSturg369

It's been said for quite awhile now, and I STRONGLY agree...... If you are a smoker (of any type) stock up NOW. If there are any doubts just look at what's happened in the last few years and the momentum that's being created on a daily basis. It will be over soon.


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## GrEg NiCe

This is ridiculous. How can you make transporting a completely legal item illegal???? I guess they really can just do whatever they want.


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## Uelrindru

It's simply extending 3w.law.cornell.edu/uscode/15/usc_sup_01_15_10_10A.html to deal with indian reservations, specifically exempting cigars and increasing the range of enforcement. From my limited understanding this shouldn't effect anyone that isn't buying from indian reservations by mail.


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## commonsenseman

DSturg369 said:


> .....If you are a smoker (of any type) stock up NOW.....


+ 1,000,000


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## Jack Straw

x9999999999^9999+2


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## Royale Duke

commonsenseman said:


> I don't even wanna say how much this pisses me off.


Agreed, just think about how many good retailers we'd lose.


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## GreatBonsai

FiveStar said:


> But yea, that sucks. If they go this route with cigars and pipe baccy, we could all be in deep doo-doo. Especially with the prices in some of the B&M's.


Tell me about it! I saw a tin at a local merchant today with a 40% markup over pipes&cigars! It's not just baccy, either. Their pipe lighters were marked up a ridiculous amount too...


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## JazzCigar

Dan-Hur said:


> ...What possible justification could they have for that bill? I must have missed the part of the Constitution that makes this part of their purview...


Article 1, Section 8: ...

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, *and among the several States*, and with the Indian Tribes;

...

I don't think what the gov't wants to do is ethical or justified by anything convincing, but it does have the constitutional authority to regulate interstate commerce. This is still bullsh!t.


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## KBibbs

GreatBonsai said:


> I saw a tin at a local merchant today with a 40% markup over pipes&cigars!


My (very small) tobacco shop has got backwoods cigars (the cheap little ones) for $15 a pack (of 8) now. The liquor store used to have them for about $8. It's a sign of the times, and times are not good for us smokers. I'm contemplating stocking up on a bunch of LBF just to be safe.


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## dillonmcmurphy

good thing i just ordered a sizeable amount of baccy from pipesandcigars.com... almost 2 lbs of various tins and bulks.


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## Verschnupft

The only good thing about these bills lately is I can use them to justify more bulk orders.


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## Alpedhuez55

FiveStar said:


> Well this really isnt the forum for it, but technically all CC orders that are delivered are prohibited by law, but they seem to get through somehow. I didn't realize folks ordered smokeless tobacco or cigs online. When I smoked, I just bought them at the gas station.


Living in the Carolinas it probably was never an issue. When I moved to South Carolina, a carton fo smokes that would cost about $50 in Taxachusetts was about $20 here. If you are a pack a day smoker, you are looking at saving about $100 a month ordiering by mail.

I think this is more about the States getting their tax revenues than anything else. Massachusetts was talking about having state troopers posted at the border of NH to try to pick up Mass residents who buy smokes in NH. I just hope they do not move this kind of tax to Cigars and Pipe Tobacco.


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## kvv098

I really want to support local B&M but every time I buy something I cannot get rid of filling that I was ripped off. I hope I will have enough time to stock up with Internet.


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## Dan-Hur

JazzCigar said:


> Article 1, Section 8: ...
> 
> To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, *and among the several States*, and with the Indian Tribes;
> 
> ...
> 
> I don't think what the gov't wants to do is ethical or justified by anything convincing, but it does have the constitutional authority to regulate interstate commerce. This is still bullsh!t.


This kind of law has nothing to do with that clause. It was meant to create free trade among the states, not stifle it.


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## stoked

Just the gov't's attempt to get every dollar out of tobacco tax. They are missing out on a lot of tax right now through internet and mail order.



Just that the gov't has some bassackwards ways of getting those taxes. Here in Ontario they have made it illegal and fineable to have native tobacco in your possession. There is a $500 fine and $0.12 tax per cigarette levied on native tobacco. I have never seen more native cigarettes being smoked. It isn't effective. If they wanted to collect tax they could do it at the vendor - show a native status card or pay the tax when you buy. But no - just make it illegal - duh.
The big tobacco companies are making knock-offs of their own cigarettes and offering them at 30-40% cheaper than their premium brands just to keep up with the native smokes black market. 

Never fret Boys, there will always be a black market to make up for unfair taxation. It's a fact.


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## WWhermit

I just don't see places like pipesandcigars.com and smokingpipes.com being able to survive at the level of business they do via the internet. Not to mention that house blends like anniversary kake, 10 to midnight, and Sunza Bitches will now be unavailable.

So, what this bill did was help some local businesses by killing those in another state. Brilliant ****ing idea!

WWhermit
ipe:


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## Uelrindru

WWhermit said:


> I just don't see places like pipesandcigars.com and smokingpipes.com being able to survive at the level of business they do via the internet. Not to mention that house blends like anniversary kake, 10 to midnight, and Sunza Bitches will now be unavailable.
> 
> So, what this bill did was help some local businesses by killing those in another state. Brilliant ****ing idea!
> 
> WWhermit
> ipe:


They're not making all of them illegal just the ones that don't report it and collect the proper taxes. This is just expanding an exisiting law to include indian reservations and giving it more teeth than it had, previously they would fine you or the seller.


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## WWhermit

Uelrindru said:


> They're not making all of them illegal just the ones that don't report it and collect the proper taxes. This is just expanding an exisiting law to include indian reservations and giving it more teeth than it had, previously they would fine you or the seller.


*you will no longer be able to purchase these products by mail-order, telephone order, or on the Internet, because the United States Postal Service, along with UPS, Fed-Ex and all other carriers will be prohibited by law from delivering your orders to you.*

Watch and see the impact this has.

WWhermit
ipe:


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## Jimmyc

commonsenseman said:


> I don't even wanna say how much this pisses me off.


Agreed times two!! What the He-- is going on in this country!!!!:yell:


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## Alpedhuez55

kvv098 said:


> I really want to support local B&M but every time I buy something I cannot get rid of filling that I was ripped off. I hope I will have enough time to stock up with Internet.


Well, generally in high tax states it is the government ripping you off and not the B&M. For example, it is cheaper for me to order a pound of Perretti's Tobacco and have it shipped to me than it is to buy it in the store.

I think the key here is hoping that Cigars and Pipes keep getting treated differently from cigarettes. That is why that other bill that would group RYO with pipe tobacco is pretty scary. I just hope they do not try to link it to some other bill as an ammendment.


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## Mad Hatter

Well dude...................................
Here in Illinois it hasn't been possible to get mail-order cigarettes for a long time. Most places even consider herbal cigarettes included in this. There is also a sign at the Missouri border saying that all gasoline and tobacco bought out of state must be claimed in a tax form. Enterring the state with more than two packs of out of state cigarettes is a punishable crime. This isn't new news since it came into effect when I worked in Missouri in 2001. Money is in short supply and everyone is scrambling to preserve what they are entitled to. A local school district in MO lost $300,000 annually this year due to a factory closure (that's a school with a smaller than 25 student graduating class). The state of Illinois is way behind on payments to local schools. Its ****ed up but we're in a pinch.

Oh yeah....... "Marxists, Commies, took our job!" etc, etc. Realisty sucks.


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## Uelrindru

ARRRRRGGGGGH I've been trying to butthe bills in there and end this but I'm being eaten alive by the system. If you go to CHAPTER 10A - The Jenkins Act for the bill and WashingtonWatch.com - S. 1147, The PACT Act for the amendment you'll see. Read the whole thing, the sentence you are quoting is in there but it ends with "that this act makes unmailable"


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## drake.c.w.

I see gum sales increasing. "Yes, I'll take 4 cartons of Reds, and a pack of Bazooka Joe. My mailing address is...."


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## Justy P

This bill, just like last year's SCHIP tax increase, solely benefits Big Tobacco... Internet sales and RYO tobacco sales prevent people from picking up a $6 pack of their smokes at the gas station. 

I doubt the competition offered by Online Retailers hurt Big Tobacco all that much, but they want every penny they can get their hands on.

Pipe Tobacco will undoubtedly be next, since there are a fair amount of rebranded RYO cigarette tobacco companies now calling their product "Pipe Tobacco" to avoid the tax increase post SCHIP.

It's too bad the "Golden Rule" in this Country is, "He who has the Gold, makes the rules."


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## tpharkman

I strongly dislike politics and politicians but we all need to get involved in some way shape or form. This post has convinced me to join CRA and even if it doesn't help I will feel better having done something instead of just waking up some day and asking those around me what happened.


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