# Stupid Aquarium bags



## Vwluv10338 (Aug 24, 2010)

So I have been using KL in my wineador for a few months now and everything was fine. I purchased a few mesh bags for aquarium media from Petsmart for 99cents to put the litter in and placed three of them around the humi. I had stable rh and good recovery. Now even with my drawers from Forrest I will say my wineador has never smelled as good as my wood humidor and I did my best to clean it with baking soda before I used it. The other day I pulled out a 5er from a PIF t out of the freezer and threw it in the wineador then the next day when I opened the door it had a terrible plastic chemical smell. I thought maybe it was the new sticks releasing some ammonia or something since that was the last thing I added but they all smelled fine. I left the door open to air out a little then closed it up and checked the next day and the smell was still there. Finally today I had to fix it and I pulled out one of my media socks and smelled it and wow, the chemical smell could knock you on your ass. The only thing I can think is that the mesh is made of plastic and it has been fine all winter when my house temp was set at 66F. I dont actually use the cooling of the wineador because I cant get it to set any higher than 62f. Now the weather has changed and my house has been 75f and I am guessing the plastic in the mesh is now outgassing some chemicals. If anyone buys these bags from Petsmart be aware. I have them sitting out and hopefully they will release whatever they need to so I can put them back in.


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## AStateJB (Oct 13, 2011)

That sucks! Glad you figured out what was causing the smell! Hopefully you were able to get them out of there before they added any of their special aroma to your smokes.


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## Kindanutz (Jan 31, 2012)

I started out using those media bags for my KL in my wineador but I found them to be more counterproductive then productive... They tend to make more of a mess then anything... All the salts and smaller pieces of KL fall thru the holes of the bag... I haven't used them long enough to notice any type of smell from it... Panty hoes all the way!...


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## RealSRS (Feb 13, 2012)

Im currently using a media bag but bought 15 opus coffins off ebay. Plan to spread the KL out all over the sides of my end table and get rid of the large bulky media bag!


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## Vwluv10338 (Aug 24, 2010)

Ok, now I'm not so sure where the smell is coming from. I took one of my bags and removed half of the litter to put it into something else. When I smelled the empty part of the bag I couldnt smell anything. When I smell the side with the litter it smells terrible. When I smell the litter I removed I dont really smell anything either. Now I'm confused. Maybe the litter absorbed the smell? The litter in my wood humidor which is wrappped in a coffee filter has no smell to it.


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## yellowv (Dec 24, 2011)

I have a few of those bags in mine and I get no odor from them at all. My wineador smells fantatic. Didn't do anything more than air it out for a day to get rid of the smell.


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## Cigar Noob (May 22, 2011)

my guess is the lack of circulation from when you cleaned it never got the plastic smell out. Those bags are made to go in aquariums and odor being pumped into the water would not be a good thing so I would not blame it on the bags, especially since they aren't a new variable. Those bags have zero odor even when new. IMO it is your wine cooler since it seems that is the only thing that has changed (going from off, to on). 

That being said, those bags are awful with all the dust. I found some very low profile cigar boxes from my B&M, seperated the top from the bottom, and used them as containers for KL. No dust! Needs to be under 1.5" to slide under drawers/shelves for my VT-28. I have Forrest making me one that fills the lower area so I can get more KL in.


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

Vwluv10338 said:


> Now I'm confused. Maybe the litter absorbed the smell? The litter in my wood humidor which is wrappped in a coffee filter has no smell to it.


That's exactly what happened Silica Gel is a desiccant that absorbs R/H and odor very well.


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## Vwluv10338 (Aug 24, 2010)

TonyBrooklyn said:


> That's exactly what happened Silica Gel is a desiccant that absorbs R/H and odor very well.


Tony, do you think it will release the smell if I let it air out and put new KL in the wineador or should I just pitch it?


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## usrower321 (Mar 27, 2011)

I would toss the litter and put in fresh. I plan on doing that yearly. 15 bucks every 2 years on KL is certainly worth the alternative of imparting chemical tastes on the cigars.


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## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

Man, how this shit cracks me UP!


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## Mante (Dec 25, 2009)

Herf N Turf said:


> Man, how this shit cracks me UP!


LOL. That was exactly my thought.


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## Vwluv10338 (Aug 24, 2010)

Herf N Turf said:


> Man, how this shit cracks me UP!


Ah yes we know how helpfull that is. I know you hate KL but explain how its the litters fault that my wooden humidor is fine with KL and my used wine cooler now has developed a bad smell with litter? They are both running the same littler out of the same box. Honestly I want to build a wood cabinet humidor but a $40 wine fridge seemed like a good deal to me. I have had no problems in the last 6 months untill this week.


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## gahdzila (Apr 29, 2010)

Mesh aquarium bags here as well, never any smell. I'm with Tony - your KL absorbed some odor (either plastic smell from the wineador or maybe some ammonia outgas from fermentation?). I'd pitch the KL and replace it.



Herf N Turf said:


> Man, how this shit cracks me UP!


??? I don't get it.


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## Vwluv10338 (Aug 24, 2010)

gahdzila said:


> Mesh aquarium bags here as well, never any smell. I'm with Tony - your KL absorbed some odor (either plastic smell from the wineador or maybe some ammonia outgas from fermentation?). I'd pitch the KL and replace it.
> 
> ??? I don't get it.


That is what I am thinking at this point now that I have separated the KL from the bags. Now I have the wineador closed up with just my old gel in it. I dont know if it was the plastic inside that is outgassing now that the weather has changed or maybe my Johnny-O's have decided to ferment. The problem is I cant pinpoint anywhere inside that the smell is coming from. No particular smokes or the plastic. Right now it seems fine with no KL inside. Maybe I aired out whatever was causing the smell


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## PaulE (Nov 17, 2011)

I also have a Newair wineador and as far as i know the plastic smell comes from the motor running when it's cooling. The only way i was able to get the smell out was to run it for several days with lots of newspaper inside. 

So probably you were not smelling plastic before since you weren't running the wine cooler.


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## meatcake (Mar 3, 2012)

The thing with KL is you want it exposed so it will work correctly. I have found that baby food comes in a nice 4 to 6oz glass bottle with a metal top. For a humidor that fits 30 to 50 cigars (which I have 2 of) 4 to 6oz is the perfect size of KL that you need. So, get the baby food from a local grocer, empty it out, give it a good washing (removing labels, etc) and viola, you have your KL holder that takes up VERY little space in your humidor. You can leave it open (which is what I do) or you can poke holes in the top with an ice pick very easily and close it up. However, if you want to leave the top on the baby food jar, expect the RH to be effected. Mine without the jar cover is a very nice RH of 66 with 4.5oz of DRY KL. With the top on, it jumps to 68/69. 
You can also pick up a nice plastic container made to hold a single stick of butter at "the container store" that works quite well. It has a top again, that you can poke holes thru if you choose, or remove very easily. It works a LOT like the COFFINS that people always talk about, its the length of a stick of butter so it only takes up as much space as say four 5x52 gauge cigars. I have this in one of my Tupperdores filled with KL. I did however, remove the top so the KL is exposed. The Tupperdore sits nicely at 66RH as well. It works to sometimes think outside the box. I am sure lots of people use other things as well.


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## Vwluv10338 (Aug 24, 2010)

PaulE said:


> I also have a Newair wineador and as far as i know the plastic smell comes from the motor running when it's cooling. The only way i was able to get the smell out was to run it for several days with lots of newspaper inside.
> 
> So probably you were not smelling plastic before since you weren't running the wine cooler.


I havent turned it on I was just using it more or less as a cooler because the highest temp setting is 54 which is too cold for me


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## smokin_dad (Jan 25, 2012)

I put my HF beads in some panty hose and in the wineador it went!


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## RealSRS (Feb 13, 2012)

Hes cracking up because he thinks it is extremely stupid to use KL as a humidification device. He pays extra for the beads and thinks that using KL is inferior/stupid. Despite hundreds of people using KL with no problem he relishes the opportunity to poke fun when someones setup has a problem.

IF I were you, I would pitch the KL and use the ammo cases, baby food jars (mentioned in this thread), or my method (cigar coffins)

Good luck, hope your issue is resolved.


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## Mante (Dec 25, 2009)

RealSRS said:


> Hes cracking up because he thinks it is extremely stupid to use KL as a humidification device. He pays extra for the beads and thinks that using KL is inferior/stupid. Despite hundreds of people using KL with no problem he relishes the opportunity to poke fun when someones setup has a problem.
> 
> IF I were you, I would pitch the KL and use the ammo cases, baby food jars (mentioned in this thread), or my method (cigar coffins)
> 
> Good luck, hope your issue is resolved.


I'd be rather careful of speaking on Herfs behalf as he is an extremely knowledgeable source re humidors & RH control.


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## Vwluv10338 (Aug 24, 2010)

Well it looks like the problem is not KL related anyway. I left it air out some yesterday and closed it up last night with nothing but my old gel and a baby food container of distilled water. This morning there was a slight chemical smell again. I'm still wondering if it's some sticks letting off ammonia.


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

Vwluv10338 said:


> Tony, do you think it will release the smell if I let it air out and put new KL in the wineador or should I just pitch it?


I never reuse Kitty Litter it costs almost nothing to replace. Unlike beads that are 40, 60, 80 dollars a pound depending on what you buy or who you buy it from.


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## Mante (Dec 25, 2009)

TonyBrooklyn said:


> I never reuse Kitty Litter it costs almost nothing to replace. Unlike beads that are 40, 60, 80 dollars a pound depending on what you buy or who you buy it from.


$31 a pound and which basically never need to be replaced. The culprit here is ammonia methinks, not the medium used to control the humidity. I have seen no suggestion in this thread that KL is unviable.


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

Vwluv10338 said:


> Well it looks like the problem is not KL related anyway. I left it air out some yesterday and closed it up last night with nothing but my old gel and a baby food container of distilled water. This morning there was a slight chemical smell again. I'm still wondering if it's some sticks letting off ammonia.


If you can remove your sticks wash your unit out drying out in the sun is best. Old crumpled up newspapers after it spends 24 hrs drying for another 24 hrs. If you still smell anything Activated Charcoal right next to the aquarium bags in the pet store. Open the jar keep it in there 24 hrs never seen any odor survive that.
If that still does not work i would go ahead and spend the extra dollars for the beads. After all at 30 times the price its got to be better.:laugh:


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## gahdzila (Apr 29, 2010)

Tashaz said:


> I'd be rather careful of speaking on Herfs behalf as he is an extremely knowledgeable source re humidors & RH control.


I don't think he was presuming to speak on Herf's behalf....Herf's comment went over my head (though it shouldn't have LOL), and Michael was just answering my question.

Some bead guys seem vehemently opposed to KL and bash these type of threads. Likewise, some KL guys' comments could be seen as looking down their noses at bead guys (though I personally never took their comments this way). Can't you guys just stay out of each others' hair? This isn't the first time this has come up.


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

:brick::woohoo::nono:

KITTY LITTER ROCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## jmj_203 (Mar 16, 2011)

30 times the price its got to be better.....Yeah the KL guys NEVER mock or look down on Bead users. RIGHT.......


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

jmj_203 said:


> 30 times the price its got to be better.....Yeah the KL guys NEVER mock or look down on Bead users. RIGHT.......


Think you missed the point as many bead users do. This thread was not to be a Kitty Litter vs beads thread. The OP had an issue that did not concern beads but rather Kitty Litter. So why has it gone there?


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## RealSRS (Feb 13, 2012)

TonyBrooklyn said:


> Think you missed the point as many bead users do. This thread was not to be a Kitty Litter vs beads thread. The OP had an issue that did not concern beads but rather Kitty Litter. So why has it gone there?


Because if you dont spend 30x more on the beads you're a peasant. Lets all LOL at all the kitty litter users!!! Wait Im using KL. Nevermind.


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## meatcake (Mar 3, 2012)

I really don't care one way or another what people use nor do I have any opinion one way or another about which is better. It's strictly a cost thing to me. Also I like to experiment and find out what works best for the cheapest. It's turned ugly like the Xbox vs ps3 debate. Fan boys will be fan boys. Let em argue all they want. I champion anything that works. To quote that guy that got beat up a long time ago this no one gives a crap about now..."can't we all just get along?"


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## BrokenCherokee (Jul 3, 2008)

Plus everyone already knows that PS3 is WAY better! 

Sorry gents... back on topic. 

I have no input on the beads vs. litter. However I have plenty of hate for aquaria media bags from years of reefing.


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## KaChong (Jan 1, 2012)

Might it be possible that you had a puddle of water under your bag that went rank?

I find that plastics outgas at a much higher rate when they're warmed up. I cleared out the last traces of plastic odors out of my vinodor by running a hair dryer (running at low heat) inside of it and propping the door open a couple inches. The hair dryer keeping a steadyish 45C which was pretty toasty. I zip tied the thing so it's air intake was close to the door, also to keep it from shaking it's way up against one of the inside walls and overheating it.

A few hours of that treatment and I got no odors after an overnight sniff test. I closed the door so any outgassing would be trapped in the humi and be more concentrated for my detection.


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## Cigar Noob (May 22, 2011)

Let's try to bring this back from the depths.....

I would put a baking soda container in there, like one made for the fridge. Activated carbon does not work filter through the air from what I read when setting up my cooler, it works best for liquid absorption. You could leave the door cracked or lower the temperature to keep the fan running to speed up the process.



RealSRS said:


> Hes cracking up because he thinks it is extremely stupid to use KL as a humidification device.


'twas a troll post.... don't get sucked in.


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## RealSRS (Feb 13, 2012)

Cigar Noob said:


> Let's try to bring this back from the depths.....
> 
> I would put a baking soda container in there, like one made for the fridge. Activated carbon does not work filter through the air from what I read when setting up my cooler, it works best for liquid absorption. You could leave the door cracked or lower the temperature to keep the fan running to speed up the process.
> 
> 'twas a troll post.... don't get sucked in.


Why would it be a troll post? He bashes KL all the time and is coming in to laugh at someone using KL because they're having a problem. My post was the truth.


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## usrower321 (Mar 27, 2011)

Eric, I'm glad you're at least ruling things out. Maybe it has to do with the motor or some type of friction when the fan turns on? That could make a bad smell.



RealSRS said:


> Why would it be a troll post? *He bashes KL all the time and is coming in to laugh at someone using KL because they're having a problem*. My post was the truth.


Jonathan was not calling your post a troll post, but the other one. You pretty much defined a troll right there. Herf will be whoever he wants to be and it's not going to help your membership at puff to bad mouth him. Puff is not a gaming forum or any other type of forum. The mods and the general community hate flame wars on puff and don't tolerate them so let's drop it and move on. There are plenty of things people want to say but it won't help anyone to air them out.


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## KaChong (Jan 1, 2012)

I think OP said that his vinodor isn't turned on because it's maximum temp setting is too cold. I think that rules out the motor pretty solidly.


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## Cigar Noob (May 22, 2011)

KaChong said:


> I think OP said that his vinodor isn't turned on because it's maximum temp setting is too cold. I think that rules out the motor pretty solidly.


Excellent point. Which makes me wonder, why get a wine cooler that you can't use as a wine cooler? Might as well get a cooler. Maybe a lack of circulation is causing some other gases to settle and build up rather than get sucked up by the wood, cigars, KL, etc. Could be ammonia but that smells nothing like plastic. I know the glue in some cigar boxes can be quite potent, not sure if it will smell up a whole cooler though.


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## KaChong (Jan 1, 2012)

Wine coolers have some nice features over beer coolers. For one a glass door which is helpful for shopping your next smoke or admiring your collection without having to open and disturb your painstakingly maintained RH environment. You also get a door with a gasketed seal which closes far better than most coolers that you don't have to lay down somewhere while you rummage around for a stick. I also find my vinodor comes with a better racking arrangement than I'd get with a cooler. 

I myself wish I got a thermoelectric wine cooler so I could actually use the temperature control. My compressor model would be hell on cigars because the evaporator would chill down too fast and probably draw some condensation which would simultaneously dry out my cigars while condensing a mouldy puddle. Cost wise, a cooler is more economical if you're buying things at retail price. I managed to score my wine fridge on Kijiji though for $75. A good deal on a used fridge. One of the upsides of a used fridge is that the plastic interior has been given a lot of time to outgas. If the original owner doesn't leave a dead rat in it, a used wine fridge is both economical and significantly outgassed compared to a brand new cooler or wine cooler.


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## RealSRS (Feb 13, 2012)

usrower321 said:


> Eric, I'm glad you're at least ruling things out. Maybe it has to do with the motor or some type of friction when the fan turns on? That could make a bad smell.
> 
> Jonathan was not calling your post a troll post, but the other one. You pretty much defined a troll right there. Herf will be whoever he wants to be and it's not going to help your membership at puff to bad mouth him. Puff is not a gaming forum or any other type of forum. The mods and the general community hate flame wars on puff and don't tolerate them so let's drop it and move on. There are plenty of things people want to say but it won't help anyone to air them out.


AHH glad I asked because I was obviously confused. I obviously thought he was calling my post a troll post. In fact he was calling the mods post a troll post. To be fair I never bad mouthed him, simply just stated the truth. I wasnt in here simply trying to stir up shit. I offered OP with a suggestion because I to wasnt happy with my stupid aquarium bag! Glad everything has been cleared up.

OP what have you decided to do?

Sounds like the best options are:

1. Throw out the KL
2. Use ammo cases, cigar boxes, baby food jars, etc.
3. New KL

Let us know how it turns out!


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## Stinky (Mar 27, 2006)

If you have a cabinet sized humidor, KL is for newbies with an undeveloped perspective . . . of course that's my personal opinion. Why? First, KL was not designed to be used as a humidification component. Second, and most important . . . because; you have thousands of dollars worth of cigars and you haven't figured out how to justify the purchase of an appropriate humidification system! REALLY?? OMG! You have a beautiful humidor and/or cabinet (even a temperature controlled cabinet), and you're experimenting with Kitty Litter? While I like a good experiment and thinking outside the box, from where I'm standing, you're driving a new BMW with truck tires! Hydra has out-preformed Oasis in calibration and all test conditions for the last 3 years. Read up. It's the real-deal. Also, there are other appropriate humidification systems including some of the beads & gels. Sorry if my candid opinion offends. Sometimes a true friend will be completely honest, even if it might step on your toes (or ego).


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

Stinky said:


> If you have a cabinet sized humidor, KL is for newbies with an undeveloped perspective . . . of course that's my personal opinion. Why? First, KL was not designed to be used as a humidification component. Second, and most important . . . because; you have thousands of dollars worth of cigars and you haven't figured out how to justify the purchase of an appropriate humidification system! REALLY?? OMG! You have a beautiful humidor and/or cabinet (even a temperature controlled cabinet), and you're experimenting with Kitty Litter? While I like a good experiment and thinking outside the box, from where I'm standing, you're driving a new BMW with truck tires! Hydra has out-preformed Oasis in calibration and all test conditions for the last 3 years. Read up. It's the real-deal. Also, there are other appropriate humidification systems including some of the beads & gels. Sorry if my candid opinion offends. Sometimes a true friend will be completely honest, even if it might step on your toes (or ego).


With all due respect i disagree i have yet to see anyone offer scientific data that supports your statement. I on the other hand have had many offer me data that Silica is Silica most recently a gentleman that worked where beads where originally invented for use in a museum. Their intent was never for humidification of cigars but rather adapted to that. Just as Kitty Litter was adapted for the same purpose. I have used both and see no difference except for a big savings in money spent for hydrating media. Which i gladly spend on cigars.
FYO information provided by a great BOTL.

A lot of that is pure marketing speak and is largely just flat wrong and with no basis in science. Silica gel beads come in several varieties with the main three being nano-pore (type A), micro-pore (type B) and wide (or macro) pore (type C). Each type has specific characteristics which lend them to be suited for particular uses.

Type A nano-pore beads are generally best suited to desiccant-only use. Type-A beads have a very narrow range of humidity response regardless of temp (within limits) or humidity (within limits) up to their capacity to absorb moisture. Since the appearance of the various types of silica gel beads is pretty much identical, an easy way to ID type A beads is to spray or soak them with water. Type A nano-pore beads will fracture (break into many pieces/turn to sand) in the presence of liquid water.

Type B and Type C are both suitable for humidity control and the level of humidity (the set point) is based on pre-conditioning and the essentially linear response curve of these bead types. Type B and Type C beads tend to adsorb (not absorb) moisture at high relative humidity levels and desorb as humidity levels fall. This response curve is why Type B and Type C beads are in fact the base products for humidity control in contained museum exhibit and gallery use. (Artsorb.) (See some response curves for the various types of silica gels in the charts at Broadchem* at Qingdao Broadchem Industrial Co., Ltd and WR Grace at W. R. Grace & Co. Enriching Lives, Everywhere.® - Adsorption on Silica Gels.) Beads are not "pre-set" as "pre-set" implies that beads will maintain one specific level of humidity up to the limits of adsorption (saturation) or desorbtion (dry.) Silica gel beads are instead "pre-conditioned" (which is to say they are "set" to a level of RH at a certain temperature by exposing them to the desired RH at the desired temp until they achieve equilibrium.)

Heartfelt beads are just plain silica gel type B or Type C beads. Nothing more. Nothing less. There is nothing magic about them except the price. Buy the cheapest Type B or Type C beads you can find and use those. The silica beads in some brands of cat litter** are suitable. (It isn't cat litter until your cat uses it. It's just silica gel.)

Sorry if I've stepped on any toes here, but this is an area I happen to know something about based on years of work for the archives at the Air War College at Maxwell AFB in Montgomery, AL. I had wondered about Heartfelt and their claims for a while. I have no idea if they believe what they are saying or if they just don't understand the science. Either way, their product is nothing special. Just over priced.

*The Broadchem charts are probably the more instructive. Suffice to say that these charts show that both Type B and Type C beads have the ability to adsorb more moisture at high levels of RH and less moisture at low levels of RH. Think about what that means and you will see that contra the marketing speak claim ("Humidification beads give off water vapor, as well as absorb it, to maintain a specific RH which is ideal for a cigars particular need. This is not the case with silica gel which can only absorb water then must be dried out after it is saturated"), Type B and Type C beads do in fact have the inherent ability to both adsorb and desorb. In fact, even Type A beads can both adsorb and desorb moisture, but the limited response curve of such nano-pore beads is not well suited for RH set-point stabilization so much as for drying.

**Crystal Clear Litter Pearls are generally Type B, Type C or some mixture of the two and are perfectly suited for the purpose of cigar humidor humidity stabilization and control.


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## KaChong (Jan 1, 2012)

I found this interesting article on silica gel and it's effect on RH:

Humidity Control in Cases: Buffered Silica Gel versus Saturated Salt Solutions

I'm still getting around to re-reading it, but I've gotten a few key points of interest:

Silica gel acts as a buffer, a capacitor of humidity if you will. It does not operate with an equilibrium kind of behavior as a saturated salt solution does in maintaining 75% RH. It will slowly absorb or exude humidity based on it's initial condition that you started it off at.

Silica gel can only store as much as 2% of it's dry weight in water maintaining 50%-60% RH. This is a very low amount of moisture compared to a saturated solution. It is also a small capacity for absorbing humidity in comparison to how much undissolved precipitate you could have in a saturated humidifier.

Interesting read. Looks like calcium nitrate is a good candidate to maintain 60% RH. Incidentally I have a friend who works in museum restorations. I'll give him a shout to see if he has experience with the stuff. Archival issues go well beyond most of our 5yr aging. I think archivists maintaining relics for decades would have a good idea if a particular compound releases terrible stuff over time.


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## Cigar Noob (May 22, 2011)

[No message]


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## usrower321 (Mar 27, 2011)

Stinky said:


> If you have a cabinet sized humidor, KL is for newbies with an undeveloped perspective . . . of course that's my personal opinion. Why? First, KL was not designed to be used as a humidification component. Second, and most important . . . because; you have thousands of dollars worth of cigars and you haven't figured out how to justify the purchase of an appropriate humidification system! REALLY?? OMG! You have a beautiful humidor and/or cabinet (even a temperature controlled cabinet), and you're experimenting with Kitty Litter? While I like a good experiment and thinking outside the box, from where I'm standing, you're driving a new BMW with truck tires! Hydra has out-preformed Oasis in calibration and all test conditions for the last 3 years. Read up. It's the real-deal. Also, there are other appropriate humidification systems including some of the beads & gels. Sorry if my candid opinion offends. Sometimes a true friend will be completely honest, even if it might step on your toes (or ego).


You're comparing apples to oranges. Active humidification vs. passive. I also would never buy a BMW.

TNT was discovered and used as a yellow dye for 30 years until someone realized it could explode when heated to 240*C. Many things get discovered and then re-purposed at a later time. How, do you ask? By experimenting. Keep your hydra and "developed perspective" (READ: close minded). We'll keep up with this thing called American ingenuity while you settle with paying high prices for your super-specially designed products when you can buy an alternative that does the exact same thing but won't because it's beneath you.


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## Mante (Dec 25, 2009)

Ahhh, the old KL Vs Beads Vs Active debate again. Must be time for a Cello thread. I hope the OP has solved his issue in all this.


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## Blaylock-cl (Apr 28, 2006)

Vwluv10338 said:


> Well it looks like the problem is not KL related anyway. I left it air out some yesterday and closed it up last night with nothing but my old gel and a baby food container of distilled water. This morning there was a slight chemical smell again. I'm still wondering if it's some sticks letting off ammonia.


Eric, you seem to be working through a good process of ruling things out to get to the source of your problem. Keep us informed about what you discover. You've got me curious as to how this will "play out".


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## Stinky (Mar 27, 2006)

Good stuff! I admire a good science experiment. find what works for you and go-for-it! I still use the Propylene Glycol and some Gel stuff. Works for me! We all must find an appropriate method to maintain the proper humidity for our cigars. Carry on! Thanks. I love you guys!


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

KaChong said:


> I found this interesting article on silica gel and it's effect on RH:
> 
> Humidity Control in Cases: Buffered Silica Gel versus Saturated Salt Solutions
> 
> ...


Very nice read thank you sir i love science especially that which applies to the question at hand. Also Museum storage was the original application for beads anyone who has worked in that field has a wealth of knowledge to share.


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## Mante (Dec 25, 2009)

It would be cool if those that post information in this thread re silica actually put quotes on whom supplied such information. So far the information offered is not first hand knowledge by the members in this thread. Use the quote feature please & your references if we are going to get technical.


Many choose to quote other people but do not do them the honour of the right of knowledge. Please do so or you lack credibility.


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## bpegler (Mar 30, 2006)

Eric,

I'm still not convinced that cigars would give off the smells you describe. I would personally start from scratch again. Clean and start fresh. New media, etc. 

Also, I'm a big believer in air exchange. Happy fans make for happy humidors, regardless of the media you use for humidification. Think about all the airflow in a big walk in humidor. That's what I aim for.

Good luck!


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## Mante (Dec 25, 2009)

bpegler said:


> Eric,
> 
> Also, I'm a big believer in air exchange. Happy fans make for happy humidors, regardless of the media you use for humidification.


Hell yes Bob! Air exchange is very much a neglected part of storage. If you have desktops then it is as simple as airing them once a week.


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## RealSRS (Feb 13, 2012)

bpegler said:


> Eric,
> 
> I'm still not convinced that cigars would give off the smells you describe. I would personally start from scratch again. Clean and start fresh. New media, etc.
> 
> ...


I agree! I have a two fan computer unit that plugs into my old usb cell phone charger that is on a wall timer that runs for 30 mins at night. I also have two oust fans that run their cycle. I set the oust fans on top of my opus coffins (filled with KL) and the computer fan is mounted in the back with magnets (came with a hydro that i never used because it sits in a drawer). My cabinet is rock solid now!


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## MoreBeer (Feb 13, 2010)

Herf N Turf said:


> Man, how this shit cracks me UP!


Bravo!


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

Smells fans farts beads litter OMG i gotta go to the bathroom.


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## Blaylock-cl (Apr 28, 2006)

TonyBrooklyn said:


> Smells fans farts beads litter OMG i gotta go to the bathroom.


I'll bet we could indentify the "source" of THAT smell, Tony! :r :biglaugh:


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## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

Ah, so now, I've been called everything from a jester, to a troll...

At this point, it really doesn't matter, what, "cracks me up". What matters is, once again, there are lines being drawn and camps being defined, for the stupidest of reasons: "KL is better than beads because it's cheap and beads suck because they cost so much"... AND... "Beads RULE, because they are more accurate and are regulated and you all who use cat litter are just cheap-asses who value small, long-term savings, over over-all protection of your investment..." on and on and on... WHATEVER!

Honestly, I really don't care what anyone thinks of my "opinions". I've been backing them up here, with HARD science, for far longer than most of you have been smoking cigars.

Call me an advocate, call me a hater... just don't call me ANYTHING, until you've read ALL my posts.

HOWEVER! What I have to say on the subject of cross-polinating threads, doesn't hold a candle to what's already been said, by the greatest BOTL to ever click on Puff:



> Originally Posted by *Habanolover*
> Ok now. Enough is enough. The guy was not asking about KL or what media to use. He was asking a specific question about HF beads. I know there is a big debate here about which one a person should use but this is getting beyond ridiculous. There is no need for KL talk in a thread that is asking about beads specifically. Just as there is no need to mention beads in a thread that asks about KL specifically. If the thread is asking "What should I use?" then both sides may feel free to put in their . Otherwise from this point forward all posts that tout one over the other in a thread that is specific will be deleted. This goes for both sides of the argument.


For those of you, still passionately engaged in this *utter jackassery* Knock it OFF! It gets no where and profits the Community NOTHING.

I am of a mind to take a ZERO tolerance stance on this issue.

No more.


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

Blaylock said:


> I'll bet we could indentify the "source" of THAT smell, Tony! :r :biglaugh:


No doubt about that one Dave!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We have a saying in BROOKLYN if you smelt it you dealt it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:deadhorse:


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

Herf N Turf said:


> Ah, so now, I've been called everything from a jester, to a troll...
> 
> At this point, it really doesn't matter, what, "cracks me up". What matters is, once again, there are lines being drawn and camps being defined, for the stupidest of reasons: "KL is better than beads because it's cheap and beads suck because they cost so much"... AND... "Beads RULE, because they are more accurate and are regulated and you all who use cat litter are just cheap-asses who value small, long-term savings, over over-all protection of your investment..." on and on and on... WHATEVER!
> 
> ...


I don't think anyone here hates you for your beliefs Don i know i don't i consider you a friend. 
I do think many would except you views much better if the delivery where more for lack of a better term modest.
I think that when someone becomes a fanatic about anything their message is lost.
That's why i never personally get involved in the flame wars associated with these threads.
Nor those who contribute nothing to the forums but conjecture and hearsay.
Present company excluded!


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## RoasterDude (Oct 15, 2011)

I would make sure that the smell is actually coming from inside the cooler before tearing everything out.
It sounds like a possible previously overheated component in the cooling unit starting to smell with the warmer weather.
Opening the door could cause the odor to mix with the interior air as you are checking on it.
or from the interior vent if it has one.

Just a thought


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## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

I don't get it. What's "immodest" about, "This shit just cracks me up?"

Prior to what was quoted, that's all I'd said on this thread.

For the most part, my posts in the accessory discussion forum aren't meant to me timid, modest, arrogant, or otherwise. They are meant to be functionally educational, to the point and factual. If that comes off as arrogant, sobeit.


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## Mante (Dec 25, 2009)

Herf N Turf said:


> For the most part, my posts in the accessory discussion forum aren't meant to me timid, modest, arrogant, or otherwise. They are meant to be functionally educational, to the point and factual. If that comes off as arrogant, sobeit.


 I for one thank you for your insights Don & appreciate what I have learnt from your insightful posts during my tenure here. :yo:


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## Cigar Noob (May 22, 2011)

I notice new posts and each time I come back to see if the problem was solved, I only find more of this side topic. It's like getting rick rolled minus the enjoyment factor. uke: 

I think all of us are hoping the OP figures this out so we can unsubscribe. :clap2:


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

Cigar Noob said:


> I notice new posts and each time I come back to see if the problem was solved, I only find more of this side topic. It's like getting rick rolled minus the enjoyment factor. uke:
> 
> I think all of us are hoping the OP figures this out so we can unsubscribe. :clap2:


The side show is the best part about many of these derailed threads. As long as its allowed to happen it will with much frequency is my guess. I envy you as you get to see the dog and pony act , i learned a long time to use the ignore feature because of it i miss out. But that's really not missing anything use the ignore feature its your best friend on the forums!


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## Blaylock-cl (Apr 28, 2006)

I don't think threads should be closed because some people get a bit off-track, nor do I think it's necessary to always go back and delete everything in it that is.

What I would like to see is an attempt to keep this related to the topic, or just move on and not reply to it all.


Let's give the thread the consideration that the OP had intended.


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## Vwluv10338 (Aug 24, 2010)

OK fine...... since it seems some people are actually interested in what is happening I guess I can post again. I had just decided to let the thread die since it wasnt going anywhere good. 

Where I'm at now:
- Everything is pulled out of the wine fridge and is in an old cooler that I just washed out so there sould be no outgassing. No bad smells from the cooler.

-Wine fridge is empty. No smells from the fridge. Its supposed to get to 80F today so we will see when it warms up.

-The KL i pulled out and let sit out seems to be loosing the chemical smell so I guess it is releasing it. I had put new KL into the fridge and it seems that had absorbed the smell after a few days but was obviously not as strong as the KL that had been in for months.

- I may return everything tonight if it all seems ok.


Now my fridge is almost full and I have more smokes on the way so I need to upgrade. In the short term I now have this extra cooler but honestly I have never liked my fridge as much as my desktop. It just has never smelled the same. Therefore I am looking at going with an all wood cabinet for the future.


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## Mante (Dec 25, 2009)

Good to see you are working through this Eric. To my mind you need to toss & renew whatever medium you are using & start again. Hope this works out soon as it is a strange situation to be in. :thumb:


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

Vwluv10338 said:


> OK fine...... since it seems some people are actually interested in what is happening I guess I can post again. I had just decided to let the thread die since it wasnt going anywhere good.
> 
> Where I'm at now:
> - Everything is pulled out of the wine fridge and is in an old cooler that I just washed out so there sould be no outgassing. No bad smells from the cooler.
> ...


Smart choice Eric as you freeze all your stash anyways. Never cared for fridges either they are a solution for a problem that does not exist. Nothing smells like a fine wood cabinet or humidor.


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## Mante (Dec 25, 2009)

> Never cared for fridges either they are a solution for a problem that does not exist


Obviously it does not get hot in NYC Tony. Freezing will stop beetles but there is indeed a use for temp control to stop the RH fluctuating. Some of us live in climates that require it & temp is not the demon here, fluctuations in temp are. You may choose to naysay that but it is a known fact that big temp swings will injure cigars.


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## Vwluv10338 (Aug 24, 2010)

TonyBrooklyn said:


> Smart choice Eric as you freeze all your stash anyways. Never cared for fridges either they are a solution for a problem that does not exist. Nothing smells like a fine wood cabinet or humidor.


Well if I want to get real fancy I may pull the thermoelectric elements out of the fridge and install them in the cabinet.


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## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

Eric,

Don't know if this has been suggested, but to get rid of the stink from the bags, you could let them soak overnight in a solution of water, vinegar and baking soda. Sorry about your hassles.



TonyBrooklyn said:


> Smart choice Eric as you freeze all your stash anyways. Never cared for fridges either they are a solution for a problem that does not exist. Nothing smells like a fine wood cabinet or humidor.


T, I finally went to a wineador, for the simple reason that I don't have central air and in the summer time, my house can experience pretty significant temperature swings. Fluctuations in temperature, as you imply, are not in themselves particularly harmful to cigars. What IS harmful to cigars is the concomitant and unavoidable fluctuation in humidity. When temp goes down, condensation occurs and collects on any available surface, including cigars. When temp goes back up, moisture is rapidly removed from these surfaces and saturates the air very quickly.

Minimizing these fluctuations is a big advantage to maintaining environmental stability. I agree that "there's nothing like a good wood box for storing cigars", but once filled with cedar drawers and shelves, that's pretty much what a wineador becomes. If left with no alternative than to store cigars in a plastic and metal wine fridge, I wouldn't do it either.


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## KaChong (Jan 1, 2012)

I just cleaned up my vinodor that was bought used on Kajiji. I looked forward to getting a device that was a few years old and would have finished outgassing, but after being held shut for a month I noticed that some plastic odors had accumulated. I seemed to have accelerated the release of these odors with a hair dryer technique and a good scrub out with a distillers cleaning agent:

http://www.cigarforums.net/forums/v...tergent-cleaning-plastic-bodied-humidors.html

There's nothing like a little heat to increase the volatility of compounds we want to get rid of. Baking soda can absorb odors coming off the surface and it can act as a scrubbing compound, but it can't increase the permeability of heavy plastic sections to accelerate the release of stuff trapped within. I can appreciate the sentiment of sticking to cedar humidors. There isn't anything offensive to drive off or be surprised by over the years.


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

Herf N Turf said:


> Eric,
> 
> Don't know if this has been suggested, but to get rid of the stink from the bags, you could let them soak overnight in a solution of water, vinegar and baking soda. Sorry about your hassles.
> 
> ...


Yes i agree big temp swings will significantly swing R/H. And that is a no no very detrimental to cigars. As always great post thanks for the clarification Don!


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## KaChong (Jan 1, 2012)

If you need to dampen the effects of external temperature swings, there's nothing like an insulated refrigeration device.


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

Agreed temp swings of more than 10 degrees will effect R/H significantly. My house/ Houses never vary more than 10 degrees in temp at any given time. If they do because i am away then all humidors go to the basement where temp remains constant. But if you live in a harsh climate refrigeration is the way to go.


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## E Dogg (Mar 23, 2011)

Vwluv10338 said:


> -The KL i pulled out and let sit out seems to be loosing the chemical smell so I guess it is releasing it. I had put new KL into the fridge and it seems that had absorbed the smell after a few days but was obviously not as strong as the KL that had been in for months.
> 
> -


From my understanding (sorry can't quote anything here, just going off of memory from what I've read in the past) KL was meant to absorb urine from cats and then let the moisture release back out trapping all the ammonia. This was one advantage it has over regular cat litter, it traps the bad smells. So, if the silica has absorbed anything, you shouldn't be able to smell it. Of course, I'm not 100% sure because I don't even remember where I read it, but if it is accurate, maybe try replacing it with new silica? :dunno:


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## Vwluv10338 (Aug 24, 2010)

Update:

So it has been a while. I moved all my sticks into a cooler and left the wineador open to air out. I figured it the the wineador because the cooler smelled great. Eventually I moved my drawers and a few new boxes into the wineador and left everything else in the cooler. When going into the wineador everything smelled fine. Then today I opened the cooler that has been closed for a week...... there is the smell. So it is definately coming from the sticks because it moved from the wineador to the cooler. I am now going to move the boxes out of the cooler one at a time and see if I can figure out which one it is. Maybe my 11 PSD4s went sick :hurt:



Edit: I opened every box in the cooler and tried to find which one it is but they all smell ok. I guess the smell is gone by the time I open it and get each box out.


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## KaChong (Jan 1, 2012)

Nuts. Sorry to hear things haven't worked out for your stinky collection yet. It helps that you've got a cooler too. I propose an experiment:

-split your collection in half putting half in each humidor
-check the smell of each humidor looking to see if one humi has the offending odor
-if one does, split the stinky humi in half and put half into the non stinky humi (so non stinky has 3/4 of your cigars)
-check for odors again
-repeat until you discover the offending stogies which will either make the other humi stink, or you'll split the offending batch in half and both humis have the offending odor.

Alternatively:
-bag everything in separate bags say 10 sticks per bag
-let things sit then check each bag for the offending odor


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## Vwluv10338 (Aug 24, 2010)

KaChong said:


> Nuts. Sorry to hear things haven't worked out for your stinky collection yet. It helps that you've got a cooler too. I propose an experiment:
> 
> -split your collection in half putting half in each humidor
> -check the smell of each humidor looking to see if one humi has the offending odor
> ...


That is pretty much what I am doing but I am moving one box at a time out of the cooler to see when the smell moves


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