# Fake Pre-releases and such...



## JGD (Mar 2, 2009)

Most of us have probably been following all the drama on some other boards over the last few days. It now appears that the majority of smokes are likely fake after a ton of detective work by various people. 

So, of those who have been following all this, what are your feelings about all the sticks being sold? 

1. Are the diplomatics regular production lanceros with extra bands?
2. Are the jars and books fake?
3. Are the regular production smokes fake?

Also, how will all this affect your activity going forth? Will you stop buying over there? 

Without having smoked anything in question here is my take:

1. My guess is that at least some of the lanceros are regular production cohibas. This is because the majority of people who bought them know what a lancero tastes like and they would likely call "fake" right away if they were not cohibas. Because of this, simply adding the extra band would have been much, much smarter. 
2. This is a hard one. There were already claims that some of the dinner smokes sold were fake. However, I am leaning towards the guess that the majority of the smokes were real for the same reasons as above. Plus, by adding in real special release smokes it adds credence to the fake pre-releases (which is where all the big money seems to be).
3. Again, my guess is yes. Though, he sold much less of these so it is hard to tell. 

As for my activity over there, I plan to still buy. However, this whole thing has proven that just looking at trader feedback is not enough. In the future I plan to only buy from people that have been on one of the major boards (Puff, CF, ICC, BOTL) for a while (1 year+). 

Also, this whole ordeal will likely affect my participation in trades, buys, and passes involving HTF smokes unless I know the person who I am dealing with very well. I have a bad feeling that some (meaning a small %) of the people that got taken may try to "pass on their losses."


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## asmartbull (Aug 16, 2009)

Those threads have been interesting reads....to put it mildly.
Frankly, while it is a great read, I am still working on obtaining regular
production stock....But serioulsy, this is buyer beware. Reg flags should have been going up day 1.

Luckily, those "taken" were only taken on 5'ers and not 25'ers.....


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## JGD (Mar 2, 2009)

asmartbull said:


> Those threads have been interesting reads....to put it mildly.
> Frankly, while it is a great read, I am still working on obtaining regular
> production stock....But serioulsy, this is buyer beware. Reg flags should have been going up day 1.
> 
> Luckily, those "taken" were only taken on 5'ers and not 25'ers.....


Agreed. I did not buy anything from him. However, last weekend I did PM him asking to buy one of the lanceros. I made it clear in my PM to him that I did not have the cash to buy more than one and I simply wanted to try it. He told me not to worry about the money and that he would gladly send me one for free. He then turned down my requests to pay him or trade for it. This seems weird to me. Simply put, why would he send me one for free if I told him I would pay for it (and made it clear that I would not be buying more)? My guess is that either (1) he figured after buying it I would change my mind and buy more; or (2) he figured that I would join in those defending him (which I did to an extent - but only saying that we should wait to see how the pre-releases compare to the festival smokes before hanging the man). This doesn't seem as important anymore.

I should be getting the lancero today (if he sent it when he said he did), so I will at least be able to say if it matches up with regular releases dimension wise. Unfortunately, I have never had a lancero before so I won't be able to say if it is a real Cohiba or not.

Has anyone smoked A LOT of Cohiba lanceros?


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## asmartbull (Aug 16, 2009)

I am not getting into that mess their or here.
That said, I believe there is a difference between HTF older cigars and
the pre-release market.


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## sengjc (Nov 15, 2010)

Interesting, is this an online vendor or just an odd forum member selling CCs?

The thread suggests that it is an odd forum member.


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## Rock31 (Sep 30, 2010)

Even though I have zero interest in diving into HTFs or pre-releases, being new to the cuban world this scares me a bit..


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## asmartbull (Aug 16, 2009)

Those threads are about individuals selling cigars,,,not vendors


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## bpegler (Mar 30, 2006)

asmartbull said:


> Those threads have been interesting reads....to put it mildly.
> Frankly, while it is a great read, I am still working on obtaining regular
> production stock....But serioulsy, this is buyer beware. Reg flags should have been going up day 1.
> 
> Luckily, those "taken" were only taken on 5'ers and not 25'ers.....


I'm afraid there were much bigger sales on the side for special friends. This was an exceptional scam, and the pre release cigars were made public at the same time some authentic pre release cigars came out.

I haven't smoked one yet, but I've got one on the way from the source as well as one gifted to me by Jeff. I'll be able to tell if they fit the Cohiba profile, and whether they are Cuban or not.

I think one of the great things about this board is that the rare and HTF cigars just get gifted.

That's what being a BOTL is all about.


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## JGD (Mar 2, 2009)

Honestly, this just gets weirder and weirder. Evidently he is now giving refunds. If this all was really a scam, why?


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## bazookajoe (Nov 2, 2006)

If he follows the regular pattern he sends out some real ones for first orders then follows with the fakes on subsequent buys. Obviously a concern for those who know they bought from him but more of a concern to me is what Bob mentioned—he sold a lot outside of the forum to special friends and those can't be traced back to his WTS threads. Not all of his customers chimed in to defend him so all one can do if you bought anything of that type recently is ask those you purchased from if any of the cigars came from this guy and hope they tell the truth. This is really going to stink up the waters for a while...


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## bazookajoe (Nov 2, 2006)

JGD said:


> Honestly, this just gets weirder and weirder. Evidently he is now giving refunds. If this all was really a scam, why?


Because scammers scam. It's just what they do. I think he's only giving refunds because he saw that he's going to have visitors soon.


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## JGD (Mar 2, 2009)

bazookajoe said:


> Because scammers scam. It's just what they do. I think he's only giving refunds because he saw that he's going to have visitors soon.


Good point, I missed that. Also, it looks like the LAPD may have a presence as well.


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

_I live by that old saying "A fool and his money are soon parted"
I don't dabble in stuff that can't be authenticated. There are way too many Pre Releases available for sale. Diplomatic bands long stories to go with the cigars. I have not read the threads you speak of. But this sort of thing has been going on for years. That is how i found out about Puff coincidentally. There was a video on puff about a special set of diplomatic Be-Hikes in a leather humidor.It_ was the talk of every-board i frequented. I came to puff to see the video saw how nice the forum was. Wound up joining and staying. So you see even in the endorsement of fake goods. Something nice can come of it!!!!!!!!!!!:behindsofa:


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## bdw1984 (May 6, 2009)

TonyBrooklyn said:


> _. There was a video on puff about a special set of diplomatic Be-Hikes in a leather humidor.It_ was the talk of every-board i frequented. I came to puff to see the video saw how nice the forum was. Wound up joining and staying. So you see even in the endorsement of fake goods. Something nice can come of it!!!!!!!!!!!:behindsofa:


Totally forgot about this... owned


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## Rodeo (May 25, 2009)

What interested me was the personality study, and the way the confidence game changes when it moves to the virtual world. I'm sorry, and maybe I'm jaded, but I never considered purchasing one of those cigars. I did have to fight my beliefs, however, reading all the accolades and positive feedback this guy collected, some from people I respect.

That was the heart of his game, and he was good at it, getting people that don't know him from Adam to praise him to no end. Lots of happy dancing bananas over there from customers, and from those that called him a friend but didn't know his real name, where he lived, or whether he ever smoked a cigar in his life.

In the real world, the scam works when the shark convinces the mark that they know something the mark doesn't, but for whatever reason is letting the mark in on the secret.

The online scam flips that around ... So I sit there and wonder *not* what the scammer knows that I don't, but rather *what do all these fans and friends know* that I don't know. It works on your brain, which is screaming fraud at the same time all the fans are screaming "GREAT BOTL!"

This guy was good, very good. Not because he convinced anybody of his bona fides, but because he got lots of fine innocent people to do that for him.


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## Perfecto Dave (Nov 24, 2009)

Rodeo said:


> What interested me was the personality study, and the way the confidence game changes when it moves to the virtual world. I'm sorry, and maybe I'm jaded, but I never considered purchasing one of those cigars. I did have to fight my beliefs, however, reading all the accolades and positive feedback this guy collected, some from people I respect.
> 
> That was the heart of his game, and he was good at it, getting people that don't know him from Adam to praise him to no end. Lots of happy dancing bananas over there from customers, and from those that called him a friend but didn't know his real name, where he lived, or whether he ever smoked a cigar in his life.
> 
> ...


*
Never did biz with him but had these exact thoughts on the whole matter...after I was brought up to speed...I started wondering how deep the well really was?*


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## Batista30 (Sep 13, 2010)

Quite an entertaining and educational thread at the same time. Like you Stephen, I never considered purchasing any of those cigars because the pricing was beyond my budget. I am no expert on cubans, but I certainly like to believe I have enough common sense to think something is up especially when a seller has "unlimited access" to HTF/Rare/Pre-release cigars. 

I think the issue as you have said, lies in the fact that many people would post "he's a great guy!" or "great botl!" on his threads or on his profile and potentially misleading many people. To me, the word "Great" is thrown around like it's going out of style. Just because someone sells you a five pack of some htf cigar doesn't make him a great guy, but rather just someone who's willing to at least break even if not make a decent amount of money on you. Nothing great about that.


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## Mutombo (Aug 3, 2010)

Wow, I missed all this drama as I'm out of space in the humi/coolers and have been avoiding that site for a while to try to prevent myself from buying more. 

I remember when he first listed the pre-release cigars. I wasn't tempted at all (due to the price) but the thought never crossed my mind that it was a scam due to his trader feedback and that he was a "contributor". Funny how looking back its easy to see all the obvious red flags, but you can understand how people fell for it.


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## asmartbull (Aug 16, 2009)

They just pulled out more stuff

Makes my eyes bleed

I bet I know who is going on the scumbag list.......


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## ChiTownHustler (Jan 17, 2011)

I've been catching up on the whole situation over the past couple of days, reading threads from three different sites. One of the things that I've come away with is that you really have to do your due diligence and know exactly who you're buying from


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## tpharkman (Feb 20, 2010)

I will continue to stick with the simple pleasures in life like a well made reg production Habanos. There are way too many of those that still need smoked.


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## Mante (Dec 25, 2009)

tpharkman said:


> I will continue to stick with the simple pleasures in life like a well made reg production Habanos. There are way too many of those that still need smoked.


I hear that Thad. I have no need for fancy bands or supposed limited supply sticks as I can find everything I need in easily available current releases. That being said, I'm sorry to see on numerous forums that some fine brothers got stitched through all this.


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## asmartbull (Aug 16, 2009)

I hope that someday, I will have the inventory and $$$ to look 
as Pre-releases as my only next option.
For now, trying to obtain older "better known" cigars, can be a full time job.


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

asmartbull said:


> I hope that someday, I will have the inventory and $$$ to look
> as Pre-releases as my only next option.
> For now, trying to obtain older "better known" cigars, can be a full time job.


Yup that's what happens when we have too much money! Sorta like gambling or drugs just an excuse to throw it away. Save your money BullMan i would venture to guess 95% of the Pre releases being sold are fakes!:spider:


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## sengjc (Nov 15, 2010)

TonyBrooklyn said:


> Yup that's what happens when we have too much money! Sorta like gambling or drugs just an excuse to throw it away. Save your money BullMan i would venture to guess 95% of the Pre releases being sold are fakes!:spider:


I see no point in buying pre-releases as they will likely have a premium price to it. Why pay more for something that will be released within a few months? And then there is the issue of authenticity.

Now I am happy to spend a bit more for some vintage sticks and I am happy to put my cash down for LEs, REs, specials, etc, but not a lot more though, being the tight arse that I am. :mrgreen:


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## bpegler (Mar 30, 2006)

TonyBrooklyn said:


> Yup that's what happens when we have too much money! Sorta like gambling or drugs just an excuse to throw it away. Save your money BullMan i would venture to guess 95% of the Pre releases being sold are fakes!:spider:


There is a way to get the real ones. All we need to do is to fly down to the festival and smoke the ones Habanos SA hands out. Those are obviously 100% real, and purportedly truly special.

There is also a market for the festival cigars that are released through normal channels.

That's not to say the best value in the world is a typical Cuban cigar. Dollar for dollar a Partagas short is unparalleled.


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

bpegler said:


> There is a way to get the real ones. All we need to do is to fly down to the festival and smoke the ones Habanos SA hands out. Those are obviously 100% real, and purportedly truly special.
> 
> There is also a market for the festival cigars that are released through normal channels.
> 
> That's not to say the best value in the world is a typical Cuban cigar. Dollar for dollar a Partagas short is unparalleled.


Great minds think alike!
For the money nothing beats a Partagas short!:madgrin:


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## Perfecto Dave (Nov 24, 2009)

TonyBrooklyn said:


> Great minds think alike!
> For the money nothing beats a Partagas short!:madgrin:


*
Out of the few cc I've dabbled in, I was just thinking (and smoking) the same thing. These little buggers fit my flavor and length of time for a great smoke just perfect. Taste so great fresh I doubt if I'll ever get to experience any with some time on them....at least from holdings. I really need to get a couple more boxes before the real heat hits here so I can make through the summer without the shakes.*

*And it's all Tony's fault for talking them up so much...:kev:
*


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## HydroRaven (Oct 10, 2010)

Perfecto Dave said:


> *And it's all Tony's fault for talking them up so much...:kev:
> *


I second that! I caught myself last week buying a '99 box of Party Shorts :bawling:


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## K Baz (Mar 2, 2007)

Goes back to cuban cigar rule number 1 - verify and trust your sources.

If its to good to be true it is especially if they want money.


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## astripp (Jan 12, 2011)

For the money, I might prefer the RASCC to the partagas short, but both are damn fine.


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## Cigary (Oct 19, 2007)

Another interesting thread and just to comment on what BazookaJoe commented on...for those of us who were here a few years ago there was a member on here who was highly respected and as things turned out he used that same "confidence game" in securing HTF cigars and started trading around with others so that he could gain credibility and thus prosper. He ended up selling a lot of fakes and got untold sums of money along with his own stash of HTF cigars that others traded him for...it really spread like wildfire thru the forums and it was a mess.

Fast forward to this forum where we have some very esteemed BOTL who know their stuff when it comes to CC's and HTF cigars....they have already posted in this thread...Tony, Bull, BPegler, Warren, BazookaJoe and while I loves me some CC's I know what I like but I am far from knowing what these guys know on a consistent basis. We are fortunate to have them on this forum because they know what they are talking about as you can plainly read from their posts and when they talk...I listen and take notes. I won't even take a chance on thinking that I know what to order unless I have taken enough time to read their posts...then I take action based on what they say.

For those who are like me...take these guys words and insulate yourself in knowing they are truly gurus and that you can take their word on things. I don't like getting burned on cigars or being taken advantage of so keep your mistakes to a minimum and learn from these gentlemen.


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## HydroRaven (Oct 10, 2010)

Well said Gary. If I need advice on NC I know to turn to you and a few others. For Cubans, I trust the list you have just laid out.


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

Thanks for the kind words Gary.


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