# Propylene Glycol (PG) In Pipe Tobacco: Pro or Con



## Mister Moo

I never knew there was such a thing as PG until I discovered cigars were more important than my wife, children and making the house payment. Then, suddenly, a bottle of PG and some florists' oasis was a key part of getting through the day. Then, a couple of years later, I discover PG is added to some pipe tobaks to keep them from drying out. After a little while of buying this-and-that at various tobacconists you learn the feel and properties of pipe tobak that is PG treated. The feel or "hand" is obvious; and the stuff never seems to dry out. 

Case in point - I bought a half-pound of a burley/VA/lat blend, mildly vanilla aromatic ribbon cut at a Detroit B&M around Thanksgiving. It went into a ziplock and has been here, there and everywhere since. A bowl of this Champagne blend is like a spoonful of tobacco sorbet for me - a nice way to cleanse the palate between a monster balkan and tangy virginia-perique. It is a nice, very nicotine-ie, easy smoke - mindless, great aroma, nutty, good burn.... but the stuff feels weird and the stuff will not dry out. PG.

So, is PG a bad thing? I don't like the idea of an additive but certainly has kept the tobak perfectly smokable when anything else I'd carry in the same irresponsible way would have been dry as a bone a long time ago. It's working... So? So what.

What's your take on PG in pipe tobacco?


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## Thillium

Well, that is something new coming to light that is quite interesting. It would be nice if the pipe companies labeled what ingredients they put in their tobacco, as I considered smoking pipe tobacco the most natural way of smoking tobacco. But as you said I don't like the idea of an additive either but if it keeps the tobac still in great condition it puts me back on the fence. But the question also then arises if its a great idea because what if it makes the tobac to moist, know what I mean?


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## smokehouse

Mister Moo said:


> I never knew there was such a thing as PG until I discovered cigars were more important than my wife, children and making the house payment. Then, suddenly, a bottle of PG and some florists' oasis was a key part of getting through the day. Then, a couple of years later, I discover PG is added to some pipe tobaks to keep them from drying out. After a little while of buying this-and-that at various tobacconists you learn the feel and properties of pipe tobak that is PG treated. The feel or "hand" is obvious; and the stuff never seems to dry out.
> 
> Case in point - I bought a half-pound of a burley/VA/lat blend, mildly vanilla aromatic ribbon cut at a Detroit B&M around Thanksgiving. It went into a ziplock and has been here, there and everywhere since. A bowl of this Champagne blend is like a spoonful of tobacco sorbet for me - a nice way to cleanse the palate between a monster balkan and tangy virginia-perique. It is a nice, very nicotine-ie, easy smoke - mindless, great aroma, nutty, good burn.... but the stuff feels weird and the stuff will not dry out. PG.
> 
> So, is PG a bad thing? I don't like the idea of an additive but certainly has kept the tobak perfectly smokable when anything else I'd carry in the same irresponsible way would have been dry as a bone a long time ago. It's working... So? So what.
> 
> What's your take on PG in pipe tobacco?


so tell me more about this Detroit B&M. is any good? name? what they got in there as far as pipe tobacco? location?


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## PaulMac

From http://agingfaq.nocturne.org

Mostly a topic found in the late 90s and early 00s, "PG" was heavily discussed in ASP. Some thought it evil, others benign. Eventually, it simply was understood. Here are some of the fruits of the discussion.

PG is propylene glycol. It is a humectant used to preserve moisture content in variety of things, from food stuffs to tobacco. It is considered safe for human consumption by the FDA and its use IS quite prevalent in modern society. In tobacco, specifically, it is added to maintain moisture and retard mold development. When used in very small quantities, it is hardly detectable. However, if used with a heavy hand it just plain tastes bad. It exists and is actually in most of the tobaccos we smoke.

Jeff Folloder, 2000-07-02

Propylene glycol and other humectants are heavily used in drugstore tobaccos and jar blends to keep them from drying out. Some of these tobaccos will not dry out if left loose on a newspaper for a week. Premium blends, however, usually do not have as much PG as drugstore blends, but it's hard to find one that has [absolutely] none. [...] Proplylene glycol can prevent tobacco from drying out and helps retard mold growth. It is, however, a chemical that many of us would rather not have in their tobacco. Discovering that a favorite blend has a small amount of PG in it is not going to keep me from buying it. But knowing that a blend is treated with PG and other chemicals might very well keep me from even trying it.

Bill Burney, 2004-01-03

Propylene glycol, used as a humectant and a preservative to extend the shelf life of tobacco and as a carrier for flavorings added to pipe tobacco, is deleterious in several respects. The abundant hydrogen in the molecule combines with oxygen very readily, inducing higher-temperature combustion and production of greater quantities of water, both of which adversely affect smoking properties. The stuff also is sweetish, but with an off-taste that some find quite disagreeable. Whether the overall effect in this realm is a benefit or a detriment is a matter of taste. My personal opinion is that use as a humectant is both unnecessary and deleterious to the smoking qualities of the tobacco, and it should never be used for this purpose.

James Beard, 2000-07-02

PG can be added by the retailer to the finished bulk product, or by the blender, or the grower, or the processor, or the warehouser, or anywhere in between, and in variable quantities. So yes, PG will be found in nearly every pipe tobacco blend available, and for most of us it ain't necessarily a bad thing.

Fred Latchaw, 2001-12-12

Propyline glycol is not the evil chemical that some believe it to be, but, like anything else, it can be abused, and often is in "cheap" tobaccos. Glycerin, glycerol and alcohol were widely used in the past in flavoring tobaccos. Why so much of the industry switched to PG is a question that can PROBABLY be answered by economics.

In a relatively pure state, PG is viscous, and somewhat slimy to the touch. It binds readily with water, and is often used in humidifying units in cigar humidors to maintain a fairly constant relative humidity of about 70%, considered ideal by many. It has a distinctive sweet taste and substatially lower toxicity than ethylene- and diethylene glycols, but high ingested doses have correlated with hepatic and renal diseases. Don't drink it. If your tobacco is sticky, and it won't dry out, you've probably got a good dose of PG present. It's also found in oil-free salad dressings, and a lot of cosmetics.

And, no, I don't use it, though tested samples of some ingredient leaf have shown small amounts present.

GL Pease, 2001-12-14

PG, or propylene glycol is a viscous, oily liquid that is a common additive in food stuffs and tobacco. It is hygroscopic in that it has a tendancy to "exist" at approximately 70% relative humidity. When combined with plain old ordinary water and held in suspension in, say, oasis foam, a realtively stable humidistat is formed. When the relative humidity drops below 70%, the water bond is "broken" and the water is "released" into the surrounding environment. When the humidity level rises above 70% water is absorbed from the environment and bound to the PG.

Tobacco can act as the lattice that holds the PG solution. A little bit of PG is not really capable of holding 70%, but it is capable of locking in some moisture. From a manufacturer's point of view, this can help perpetuate the integrity of a product that may wind up sitting in warehouse, transit, or on a shelf for an indeterminate period of time. Kudos to the manufacturer who does their best to insure that you get a properly moisturized, consistent product every time.

PG is also used as a flavor carrier. Since the PG will draw in moisture from the surrounding environment, many manufacturers will flavor tobaccos using PG as a "carrier". A flavoring agent is combined with water or other solution and then combined with an amount of PG. The subsequent solution is then combined with dry tobacco and the result is that the flavor is drawn into the tobacco mixture as opposed to just being sprayed or poured on.

Jeff Folloder, 2000-08-26


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## ChronoB

The real question you have to ask yourself is what happens to PG when you burn it and inhale the byproducts of combustion? I'll take my tobacco as pure as possible, please. I make it a point to find out, when possible, if and how much PG is used in the pipe tobaccos I favor.


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## Cheeto

ChronoB said:


> The real question you have to ask yourself is what happens to PG when you burn it and inhale the byproducts of combustion? I'll take my tobacco as pure as possible, please. I make it a point to find out, when possible, if and how much PG is used in the pipe tobaccos I favor.


I was thinking along the same lines. FDA states it's fit for human consumption, but what is produced when it burns?


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## Thillium

I wonder if there is a site that shows which blens have heavy PG doses in it.
Some research done
http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=ee28e9d016ab167f558e7fb52017da0a

http://www.health-report.co.uk/ethylene_glycol_propylene_glycol.html

What are ethylene glycol and propylene glycol?
(Pronounced eth'uh-leen gly'col and pro'puh-leen-gly'col)

Both ethylene glycol and propylene glycol are clear, colourless, slightly syrupy liquids at room temperature. Either compound may exist in air in the vapour form, although propylene glycol must be heated or briskly shaken to produce a vapour. Ethylene glycol is odourless but has a sweet taste. Propylene glycol is practically odourless and tasteless.

Both propylene glycol and ethylene glycol are used to make antifreeze and de-icing solutions for cars, airplanes, and boats; to make polyester compounds; and as solvents in the paint and plastics industries. Ethylene glycol is also an ingredient in photographic developing solutions, hydraulic brake fluids and in inks used in stamp pads, ballpoint pens, and print shops.

The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has classified propylene glycol as an additive that is "generally recognized as safe" for use in food. It is used to absorb extra water and maintain moisture in certain medicines, cosmetics, or food products. It is a solvent for food colours and flavours.

Propylene glycol is also used to create artificial smoke or fog used in fire-fighting training and in theatrical productions.


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## joed

I am sure that the more experienced will have some thoughts - 

But - 70% is very high humidity for pipe tobacco - must often quoted are numbers in the 45% - 55% range.

For tobacco that has gotten a bit dry, simply soak on of the "pouch disks" in distilled water and throw it in a sealed container (baggie and mason jars bpth work well) for a day or two - and you are ready to smoke - if it;s really dry, you may have to use two of the disks or let it wait longer - but it will come back.

Spending money on PG solution for pipe tobacco - is a tin of tobacco that's not in your collection that should be


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## PaulMac

You would be hard pressed to find a pipe tobacco that has 0 PG in it, but most quality blends have minimal amounts. Even Greg Pease, who doesn't spray his tobacco, says he has tested leaf samples and they still have some PG. He is at the mercy of his processors
As far as byproducts, I have found this much:
Like ethylene glycol, propylene glycol affects the body's chemistry by increasing the amount of acid. Propylene glycol is metabolized into lactic acid, which occurs naturally as muscles are exercised, while ethylene glycol is metabolized into oxalic acid, which is toxic.
Combustion products may include and are not limited to: Carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide.
I will see if I can dig something up on the MSDS at work


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## Mister Moo

joed said:


> For tobacco that has gotten a bit dry, simply soak on of the "pouch disks" in distilled water and throw it in a sealed container (baggie and mason jars bpth work well) for a day or two - and you are ready to smoke - if it;s really dry, you may have to use two of the disks or let it wait longer - but it will come back...


I take your point, Joe, but the drift of my question was more towards, "If PG is already in tobacco you may elect to purchase, is that necessarily a bad thing?" I haven't run into much tobac that was (obviously) loaded with PG until the tobacco referenced in post #1. I always knew it was "out there" but until that batch, never had a reason to think about it.

So, is it bad? Is it really avoidable? Or is it a totally benign thing and is already in most of the tins we may buy - just in less obvious amounts than my Champagne sample?


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## Slow Triathlete

I've started to avoid it. Being a fairly new pipe smoker I still tend to burn mine hot. That gives off enough moisture by itself let alone whatever might be in there from the PG. Also, I don't like having to relight all of the time due to the PG. I usually avoid blends high in this. If it won't dry out to a reasonable RH then I won't buy it.


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## wharfrathoss

i don't like the idea of something deciding for me what moisture my tobacco should be at-i prefer most of mine on the drier side-the taste is another problem, not to mention the ? of what is produced when it is burned-the FDA says "generally safe for consumption", i don't like the word "generally", plus we're not eating it, so it's a different story-one of the reasons i quit cigarettes is all the crap that's added, i won't knowingly buy a blend that adds a bunch of stuff i don't want to smoke (for me, that includes most aros)


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## Mad Hatter

I think if tobacco is shiney then it has too much PG :r Honestly though, like all preservatives, I would avoid it if possible, but that philosophy doesn't work so easily in the world in which we live.


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## Zogg

I hate to necro, but i figured i would shine some of my knowledge upon this subject, and it may be relevant to others even today.


PG, or vegetable glycerine (organic version, which i use for lots of stuff) is.. essentially.. sugar.

"E-cigarettes", "Vapes" etc. all use nicotine mixed with flavoring mixed with PG or VG and use a little heated coil to "burn" it, creating essentially suger water vapor. That's all they are, and all that will be created when you burn PG/VG. I did lengthy research into this for a project, as well as smoked an e-cig for almost a year after clove cigarettes were banned.. before getting into cigars.

The "smoke" that comes out is actually vaporized PG that absorbs the moisture int he air, resulting in a "Smoke" like appearance. Heating up PG or VG doesn't change it into any sort of carcinogen as you are essentially burning really thick "sugarwater"

Much research has shown VG/PG to actually be healthy to ingest, even in HUGE quantities. it's actually a mild antiseptic and is what is used in smoke machines for parties/etc.

"Smoke machine" liquid is just really low low grade PG, while the stuff on tobacco or vaporizer liquid is all Food-Grade (much purer) versions of it.

I'm working on using some of my old "E-liquid" mixes (aka liquid flavorings to refill cartridges for vaporizers) to add flavoring to tobacco, and they're mostly flavor extracts mixed with VG (organic 100% vegetable glycerin)

Hope it helps anyone.. if there are any questions n stuff on the safety/etc just ask *shrug*


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## freestoke

It seems to simply oxidize like any other sugar -- water and co2 and not much else -- so there's no weirdness about the combustion products. I do taste it, however. The main difference between PA and SWR, for example, is that PA seems to have far less of it than SWR. In fact, there's so much of it SWR that it puts me off, while PA doesn't bother me at all that way. I think there are quite a few OTC tobaccos out there that would actually be halfway decent with half the PG, but as it is they are wet, hot-smoking messes.

I think it's a quantity problem. A little salt in food makes it taste better, too much and it just tastes yucky and salty.


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## Firedawg

smoke some Mixture 79 and tell me what they used...It cant be just pg.


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## shannensmall

Wile I would prefer not to smoke it, my only issue is when a blender uses way too much and causes the baccy to become "oily" from it. This often leads to a baccy that will bite your head off, and is just not very pleasurable to smoke.


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## Zogg

freestoke said:


> It seems to simply oxidize like any other sugar -- water and co2 and not much else -- so there's no weirdness about the combustion products. I do taste it, however. The main difference between PA and SWR, for example, is that PA seems to have far less of it than SWR. In fact, there's so much of it SWR that it puts me off, while PA doesn't bother me at all that way. I think there are quite a few OTC tobaccos out there that would actually be halfway decent with half the PG, but as it is they are wet, hot-smoking messes.
> 
> I think it's a quantity problem. A little salt in food makes it taste better, too much and it just tastes yucky and salty.


this is why i used VG instead of PG, you only taste sugaryness with VG.. PG has a funk to it.

sadly, VG is *much* more expensive, so unless youre using it to "mix your own" i wouldn't expect anyone to be using it anytime soon on tobacco for mass production.


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## Diodon nepheligina

Mr. Moo-- not sure if you are a dairy cow, but if so, PG has been shown to have a few side effects in your kind:

"PG has some side effects including ataxia, salivation, hyperventilation, and depression" (Elsevier)

so go easy on that Champagne mix, before you become a stumbling, drooling, wheezing Eeyore... :mrgreen:


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## Freewater9

ChronoB said:


> The real question you have to ask yourself is what happens to PG when you burn it and inhale the byproducts of combustion? I'll take my tobacco as pure as possible, please. I make it a point to find out, when possible, if and how much PG is used in the pipe tobaccos I favor.


"Studies conducted in 1942 by Dr. Oswald Hope Robertson of University of Chicago's Billings Hospital showed vaporized propylene glycol inhalation in laboratory mice may prevent pneumonia, influenza, and other respiratory diseases. Additional studies in monkeys and other animals were undertaken to determine longterm effects, especially the potential for accumulation in the lungs. After a few months of treatment, no ill effects were discovered." :twitch:

So apparently it prevents pnemonia and the flu. Now if it only didn't taste rancid I wouldn't mind.


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## Natedogg

A study from 1942? yikes. We've made some research and technology advances that surely should be able to prove/disprove that.


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## MarkC

Wow. So if I'd been smoking Captain Black, I wouldn't have got pneumonia!! Me and my snobby fancy-pants tobaccos...


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## Firedawg

MarkC said:


> Wow. So if I'd been smoking Captain Black, I wouldn't have got pneumonia!! Me and my snobby fancy-pants tobaccos...


Doesnt that give you Black Lung Disease?


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## Zogg

Natedogg said:


> A study from 1942? yikes. We've made some research and technology advances that surely should be able to prove/disprove that.


I've read the follow up lit reviews fromt he 90's highlighting this specific study and most of it was upheld. A lot of companies use PG in air vents to essentially lightly disinfect the air without you noticing.

Low-quality PG tasted bad, VG has no flavor, i just finished making some "Djarum specials" flavored tobacco and i tasted none of the PG flavoring from aromatics (it was also just as dry as normal tobaccos)

I used non-sugar based food grade extracts of anise, clove, and plum (in certain ratios to get the flavoring right) and mixed it 1:9 with VG, lathered it on pretty heavily and let it dry, soaked in real nice like XD


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