# Frigidor Question...



## alaska_guy (Dec 9, 2014)

Hey all, im new here and figured I would make my first post..

I have a Hair Wine fridge that has been collecting dust for quite some time, not knowing if it was a compressor unit or not I decided to try it out as a humidor. I cleaned it, put a gel pack in for 3 days and then finally put a single cigar in to test... Within 2 days the cigar is starting to feel dry... I tested and adjusted my analog hydrometer using the salt and water method before all this...

I used the standard metal shelves as I was worried wood might absorb the moisture and pull the moisture out of the cigar... This didn't seem to help... The unit is air tight, but I DID have the unit on and set to 65 degrees.... Is it fair to say that the unit might have been a compressor unit and dried out my cigar quickly? RH was around 62 with the unit on.

I just turned the unit off and within an hour the unit moved to 70RH.....

Should I leave the cigar in the wine cooler and see if it re-hydrates the stick, or is the stick past its point? It wasn't crispy, but it was on the dry side...

I have a few boxes coming in, and I was hoping I could use this as a solution for multiple boxes.

I went ahead and made some shelves out of MDF and routed some passages so air/humidity can work its way up through the wine cooler. The RH looks good with the MDF shelves... I know at around 64 degrees I would need closer to 85RH to stay within the 70/70 rule...

I also have 1/2lb of heartfelt beads on the way to help regulate the RH a little better...

Room temp is right around 68 degrees, so without the unit on temp shouldn't be an issue...

Any advice would be appreciative. I have used the internet search feature as much as I could, but no clear way to determine if the stick will get rehydrated without coming to a place like here where someone hopefully has made the same mistake and can provide advice.

Here is a picture as a reference. Sorry for the bad reflection, the unit looks dirty, but its just super clean and picking up the reflection of the carpet.


----------



## Dual-500 (Feb 20, 2012)

You're doing right by testing first. I did about a week of testing before putting anything in mine - both of the units. I'm on the second Wineador and it's now a Freon based unit. Look at the back of the cooler and see if it has copper tubing and a compressor in it.

Below is a link to my latest Science Project - food for thought that may help you. There are many good Winador build threads on the site.

Freon based unit build.

EDIT:
Oh yeah almost forgot until I posted and saw your picture again. Get a digital hygrometer / thermometer. If you have the cash, get a couple of them and a calibration pack or two. I keep a calibration pack on hand so if anything wierd is going on I can bag up the hygrometers and test them. I keep two digital hygrometers inside my rig and an external with an inside sensor as well. The ones with temperature monitoring are the best.

Hygrometers for Humidors - Analog Hygrometers - Digital Hygrometers | Cheap Humidors

70/70 isn't a rule, it's maximum values. I store mine at 67/67. Most guys that have figured out the humidity game store at 62% to 67% RH. Once you get things stabilized you can determine where your preferences are by how the sticks burn and smoke.

Remember RH means "Relative Humidity" and somewhere near room temperature or a bit lower for stogies. You'll never want to see anything near 80% RH - that high will ruin your sticks if kept at that level for long.

EDIT 2:
It will take much more moisture storage media than a gel pack to handle that large a space. Have a look at how it's done on some of the build threads. I use two full size bread pans in mine that are fulled with media. Wet the media with a spray bottle full of distilled water.

Have a look at this. I'm not a Kitty Litter salesman - just sharing for information. I noticed in your thread you have Heartfelt beads on order. I don't have any experience with them, so can't tell you if 1/2 lb is enough. I'll leave that to some of the other guys that know how to use them to advise you.


----------



## MDSPHOTO (Sep 10, 2013)

alaska_guy said:


> Hey all, im new here and figured I would make my first post..
> 
> I have a Hair Wine fridge that has been collecting dust for quite some time, not knowing if it was a compressor unit or not I decided to try it out as a humidor. I cleaned it, put a gel pack in for 3 days and then finally put a single cigar in to test... Within 2 days the cigar is starting to feel dry... I tested and adjusted my analog hydrometer using the salt and water method before all this...
> 
> ...


See above comments.


----------



## alaska_guy (Dec 9, 2014)

MDSPHOTO said:


> See above comments.


Good info! I will remove the back panel so I can see if its a thermo unit or compressor unit. It's a cheapo unit, so I am guessing compressor based and after reading your thread, makes total sense...

Thanks!


----------



## Dual-500 (Feb 20, 2012)

A freon/compressor based unit for the most part (there could be an exception or two out there) will not be acceptable for cigar storage without modification. Unless you just don't plug it in as MDSPHOTO stated. The one I have has too great a temperature swing on the cooling cycle which causes moisture to collect as condensation thus wringing the moisture out of the air within it and ultimately the cigars. Most out of the box thermoelectric units will work ok. Not stellar, but ok. For stellar performance modification is needed in the form of Remote Temperature Control and circulation fans.


----------



## aliyildirici (Jan 13, 2015)

Hi everyone,

I just became a member of this forum and I can be considered as a noob since I have this hobby for 4 years and I started storing large amounts this year. 

I want to build a humidor on my own and I want to use an old fridge and do the spanish cedar inline to all surfaces 

the thing that I wonder is how will I control the temperatures 

I live in a warm climate and if the fridge will not be working or if I do not use any thermoelectric cooler will the temperature stay 4 5 degrees lower than the house temp which is 75-77 degrees

the main reason for me to start a project like this is I own 2 humidors humidity is no problem but temperature is and I do not have enough storage both are 150 count humidors and I want to increase the number of cigars

the tempererature of the humidors go above 76 77 sometimes for this reason I am thinking to built a fridge a dor. 

I am also thinking to do a outside isolation to the fridge as well maybe it will help to keep temp constant or low 

if you have any experience about this kind of topic I will be glad to get some help from you guys 

thanks and best regards 

ali


----------



## aliyildirici (Jan 13, 2015)

so my question is 

1 will the fridge will be able to keep temp below 70 and constant with out any modifications 
2 will any kind of isolation to the outer surface of the fridge will be helpful 
3 will the normal humibeads or boveda packs be enough to keep the humidity constant and between 67 70


----------



## aliyildirici (Jan 13, 2015)

hi there 

can or will any one help with this topic 

thanks and best regards


----------



## MDSPHOTO (Sep 10, 2013)

aliyildirici said:


> so my question is
> 
> 1 will the fridge will be able to keep temp below 70 and constant with out any modifications
> 2 will any kind of isolation to the outer surface of the fridge will be helpful
> 3 will the normal humibeads or boveda packs be enough to keep the humidity constant and between 67 70


1. First of all you don't want to use a compressor fridge without a lot of modifications. You can use it and not turn it on, but if your ambient temp stays at 76-77, the best case scenario is the fridge left in a dark room will stay a few degrees cooler so lets say 73-74 which not optimal for storing a large collection 
2. Isolation won't matter as the temp is still your biggest challenge to proper storage conditions
3. Bovedas would not be cost efficient in a large fridge, you would be better off with beads or silica kitty litter


----------



## Dual-500 (Feb 20, 2012)

Modification of a Freon based cooler must be done to make them suitable for cigar storage. Pretty simple modifications.


----------



## aliyildirici (Jan 13, 2015)

thank you for your time 
so one final question how can ı fight with the heat 



MDSPHOTO said:


> 1. First of all you don't want to use a compressor fridge without a lot of modifications. You can use it and not turn it on, but if your ambient temp stays at 76-77, the best case scenario is the fridge left in a dark room will stay a few degrees cooler so lets say 73-74 which not optimal for storing a large collection
> 2. Isolation won't matter as the temp is still your biggest challenge to proper storage conditions
> 3. Bovedas would not be cost efficient in a large fridge, you would be better off with beads or silica kitty litter


----------



## aliyildirici (Jan 13, 2015)

or judt keep the temp as it is and lower the humidity 


aliyildirici said:


> thank you for your time
> so one final question how can ı fight with the heat


----------



## Dual-500 (Feb 20, 2012)

aliyildirici said:


> thank you for your time
> so one final question how can ı fight with the heat


Do something like this: 
http://www.cigarforums.net/forums/v...7-wineador-trials-tribulations-stage-2-a.html


----------



## MDSPHOTO (Sep 10, 2013)

aliyildirici said:


> thank you for your time
> so one final question how can ı fight with the heat


Not sure I have a good answer based on your situation. i'm assuming you do not have air conditioning, which is still very common in across the pond, or I would tell you to cool the air in you home. As Steve mentions below you can convert your current fridge if you are good with tools and can find the needed parts. The simplest answer would be to look for a thermoelectric wine or beverage cooler which would control your temp. One thing I would strongly recommend is to freeze all your cigars to prevent a beetle outbreak which is possible at your current temps.


----------



## aliyildirici (Jan 13, 2015)

I never had any beetle problems I am checking the humidor every day and my girl friend is jealous of the humi  I keep the humi around 68 65 and never had a problem of beeteles but I want to lower the temps

I am thinking of buying a wine cooler and keep the humidors inside it maybe it will help 
so do you think just putting the humi beads or someting to regulate the humidty inside the wine cooler will be enougu or will I still need to modify the cooler like dual 500 did 


MDSPHOTO said:


> Not sure I have a good answer based on your situation. i'm assuming you do not have air conditioning, which is still very common in across the pond, or I would tell you to cool the air in you home. As Steve mentions below you can convert your current fridge if you are good with tools and can find the needed parts. The simplest answer would be to look for a thermoelectric wine or beverage cooler which would control your temp. One thing I would strongly recommend is to freeze all your cigars to prevent a beetle outbreak which is possible at your current temps.


----------



## aliyildirici (Jan 13, 2015)

ıs it ok to just put the winecooler as it is or do it need to modify it like you did


----------



## MDSPHOTO (Sep 10, 2013)

aliyildirici said:


> I never had any beetle problems I am checking the humidor every day and my girl friend is jealous of the humi  I keep the humi around 68 65 and never had a problem of beeteles but I want to lower the temps
> 
> I am thinking of buying a wine cooler and keep the humidors inside it maybe it will help
> so do you think just putting the humi beads or someting to regulate the humidty inside the wine cooler will be enougu or will I still need to modify the cooler like dual 500 did


Because you've never had a beetle problem does not mean you won't have one, just ask the editor of Cigar Aficionado who has now had 2 beetle infestations destroying hundreds of cigars. Steve has a very elaborate system that while great for him is a little too complicated for my personal tastes. If you could find a small working thermoelectric wine cooler you would need to do nothing else to it except to add some humi beads. If you want to get elaborate you could have custom spanish cedar drawers built for it.


----------



## Dual-500 (Feb 20, 2012)

aliyildirici said:


> I never had any beetle problems I am checking the humidor every day and my girl friend is jealous of the humi  I keep the humi around 68 65 and never had a problem of beeteles but I want to lower the temps
> 
> I am thinking of buying a wine cooler and keep the humidors inside it maybe it will help
> so do you think just putting the humi beads or someting to regulate the humidty inside the wine cooler will be enougu or will I still need to modify the cooler like dual 500 did


Many use Thermoelectric type wine coolers with success. I have used one myself, an Avanti Thermoelectric type and it was plug and play - just put cigar humidor inside it, a bread loaf pan of silica beads and it worked.

Does a Thermoelectric wine or beverage cooler work out of the box? Yep, sure do. Is a plug and play Thermoelectric cooler the best solution? IMO no, they are not and one can do better. What you do depends upon your preferences. Do you want the simplest solution that will work? Or, do you want something a little better?

Stock out of the box Thermoelectric wine/beverage coolers work fine - no argument on that - certainly don't want to get anyone's panties all wadded up on this topic.  They do have a few shortfalls - some do anyway. The thermostat is the gripe I have with them. The one I had, which was typical, had a digital readout and digital temperature control. The problem with that is when there is a momentary power drop out, they default from somewhere in the 64 degree region (the highest temp setting the Avanti had) to a default setting of around 45 degrees F. That would usually happen at night or when I was at work. Come home and open up cigar winador to find RH had plummeted and cigars were at 45 degrees. That's not a huge deal and it may or may not have hurt anything. But, I want the best storage conditions for long term and aging. Have over $2K invested in total stash and am just a Type "A" kinda guy that works as an engineer. So, it wasn't a big deal to come up with a better solution. When doing RTC (Remote Temperature Control) modification to a cooler, I chose a Freon based system as they are said to be more reliable in terms of lifespan.

You don't need a full up modified custom system like I built - just showed you for an example. A stock out of the box Thermoelectric will work just fine. Choose whatever media you want for RH control - beads, kitty litter, whatever. There are plenty of threads on that topic.


----------



## Dual-500 (Feb 20, 2012)

MDSPHOTO said:


> Because you've never had a beetle problem does not mean you won't have one, just ask the editor of Cigar Aficionado who has now had 2 beetle infestations destroying hundreds of cigars. Steve has a very elaborate system that while great for him is a little too complicated for my personal tastes. If you could find a small working thermoelectric wine cooler you would need to do nothing else to it except to add some humi beads. If you want to get elaborate you could have custom spanish cedar drawers built for it.


Yep - I would be concerned about the temperature and find a solution to keep them below 70 F. I went complex for temp control, and simple for RH using baking pans of kitty litter.

Even if you haven't had a beetle or mold problem, as stated by MDSPHOTO doesn't mean you won't. And the investment in good smokes is worth the effort to ensure good storage.

It's just nice to walk over to the cigar stash with confidence and open it up with the only consideration being what to smoke - not finding storage problems with expensive inventory. That's what it's about....


----------



## aliyildirici (Jan 13, 2015)

ok I am buying that cooler tomorrow


----------



## Dual-500 (Feb 20, 2012)

^ That's a good investment.


----------



## MDSPHOTO (Sep 10, 2013)

Dual-500 said:


> ^ That's a good investment.


I agree! Not sure what brands are available there, here most people opt for NewAir, Avanti or Wyhnter. They are all made in the same place so there are not many quality differences. However, if you want to have custom cedar drawers made by one of the guys here iwould suggest one of the NewAir 280 or 281e as most drawer makers have the dimensions for those units. Google Wineador Drawers for examples of how people have outfitted their drawers.


----------



## aliyildirici (Jan 13, 2015)

Hi everyone,

I took your advice and bought a wine cooler. here is the picture






it is a turkish brand and was cheap compared to the other ones it was like 400 dollars and others were above 3000 dollars. so it was a bargain. I first tested it to see if it holds the temp stedy and it does keep it beetween 64 and 66 fahrenheit.

I also draw some custom drawers for it and producing them using spanish cedar but now the problem is humidity

I put a large bowl of cat litter and did the spray over it and it did not work. it increase to 77 rh and than in couple of hours it drops to 60's. and there all the increase and drop in rh levels is sudden not slow and steady.

so what i am thinking is to put a "New Cigar Humidity Beads 68% Humidifier Tube for 250 Cigars" that I found on ebay at each drawer of the cooler

do you think this will be helpfull.

I can use cat litter but it holds up a large space so ı want to use something smaller and more efficient.

can I get some advices from you.

I also looked for some electronic humidifiers as well but they are very expensive compared to the beads.

an other question is what will happen if I directly put my humidor in to the cooler









this is the picture of my desktop humi. I have 4 more of the same humidor and they fit inside the cooler. Humidors rh control is amazing it doesnt even need any beads in it after it settles at 68

the total volume of the cooler is about 1.44 meter cube and I do not know how to control its rh levels

thanks for the help

best regards

ali


----------



## aliyildirici (Jan 13, 2015)

some 3d designs of the drawers inside the winecooler


----------



## aliyildirici (Jan 13, 2015)




----------



## Dual-500 (Feb 20, 2012)

DISCLAIMER: Kitty Litter, Beads, Active Humidifiers are Hot Button topics and I do not seek to enter into or incite a flame war on this. I only share my experience and I have only used beads in moisture elements in table top humidors - so, I have no opinion on them whatsoever when used in a wineador. I've used Hydra SM electronic humidifiers and now Kitty Litter in the Wineadors I've setup.

The RH swings are indication of a problem, not a Kitty Litter issue per se. When things are right, Kitty Litter works and works well.

What are you measuring the RH with? Is the device calibrated?

How much Kitty Litter and what brand did you use? What type of container is the KL in?

Empty, the RH won't be as steady as when it's filled up. Still, it shouldn't have the swings you are seeing in it. That looks to be a 28 bottle or 36 bottle size cooler. Which is it?

When you wet the media, how did you do it? Should be using distilled water and a spray bottle - I use a large stainless steel bowl, and toss it like a salad while spraying distilled water over it so it all gets moistened evenly, then pour it back into the containers for the wineador. Mine uses two bread loaf size containers and about 3 pounds of Kitty Litter.

* If you have a digital thermometer with min/max storage settings put it into the cooler and see what the temperature swings are when it runs. This alone could cause you huge problems if the thermostat has wide setpoint variations. You may want to consider RTC (Remote Temperature Control). *See what it's doing first - if it ain't broke, don't fix it.* May work just fine right out of the box. Getting an idea of the temperature swings is important - *recommend you not skip this.* If temperature swings are a problem, there are very simple RTC solutions available. As simple as drilling a hole through the box for the temperature probe and plugging the cooler into the controller - that simple.

Have another look at my wineador build thread, much is this is discussed and you may find it useful: Freon based Winador Build Thread

Read through this thread on Kitty Litter use: Kitty Litter Large Humidor Experience

More on Kitty Litter use in Cigar Storage: Exquisicat Kitty Litter

You're doing the right thing by setting up and testing BEFORE adding cigars to the cooler.

Be patient, you'll figure it out.


----------



## aliyildirici (Jan 13, 2015)

Thanks Alot for your reply

i use a very similar litter to exuisicat it has both blue and clear crystals in it

yes I am measuring with a digital passatore brand hygrometer and it is calibrated I did the salt test on it. 

I am using kitty litter in a glass bowl. it is a 40 bottle unit 

I am using distilled water sprayer on the litter but I think I am not using enough litter. 

I am thinking to put a box with litter on each drawer that I design there is a space in the middle of each or I will fill the bottom drawer full with litter which is an other option


----------



## MDSPHOTO (Sep 10, 2013)

Steve has asked some good questions and provided some solid recommendations. The only thing I would add is to plug the drain hole in the bottom of the unit and let you know it is safe to place your desktop units inside the cooler when it's steady.


----------



## aliyildirici (Jan 13, 2015)

I also noticed that the RH fluctuates when the fan inside the cooler runs else it is stable now I will watch it for 24hr periods to see when it drops


----------



## Dual-500 (Feb 20, 2012)

I use about 3 pounds in mine. Put more In it and be sure to wet it as I described. Definitely check the temperature swings as that caused problems in my setup. Do it for peace of mind and to know.

Also, my setup will not attain or maintain correct RH levels without the circulation fan running. I found this out when the first fan speed controller failed and the circulation fan stopped. This may or may not be applicable to your setup.


----------



## aliyildirici (Jan 13, 2015)

Hi everyone
I bought some boveda packs today and I am trying those in my wine cooler.

I saw in some posts some guys put KL and Bovedas together but boveda site says never put it with some other humidifier.

what are your opinions. if they hold the rh steady I wont even buy any cedar and do custom drawers I will go with tupperware

what you say

thanks and best regards

Ali


Dual-500 said:


> I use about 3 pounds in mine. Put more In it and be sure to wet it as I described. Definitely check the temperature swings as that caused problems in my setup. Do it for peace of mind and to know.
> 
> Also, my setup will not attain or maintain correct RH levels without the circulation fan running. I found this out when the first fan speed controller failed and the circulation fan stopped. This may or may not be applicable to your setup.


----------



## aliyildirici (Jan 13, 2015)

Ok I think I got what is the problem with my RH fluctuations.

the thing is when the coolers fans start to work the RH fluctuates else it is constant at 70 but the thing is when the cooler works it drops to 55 for 2 3 minutes and then in the following two minutes it rises and when the cooler is silent there is no fluctuation in rh levels

I looked at the cooler for a drain hole but I couldnt find any drain holes but there is a fan at the top of the cooler and a large grill near the middle of it

so all in all the rh acts like stable for few hours then drops and rises again for 5-10 minutes.

will this damage my cigars or tobacco in it. what do you think

is there a way to prevent this happening what do you think will happen if I close the fan and the grill with duck tape or some kind of isolation band

thanks and best regards



aliyildirici said:


> Hi everyone
> I bought some boveda packs today and I am trying those in my wine cooler.
> 
> I saw in some posts some guys put KL and Bovedas together but boveda site says never put it with some other humidifier.
> ...


----------



## aliyildirici (Jan 13, 2015)

I am thinking to put a arduino RH and Temp sensor inside the wine cooler and get the data log for 24 hr periods maybe than I can see how long it stays at the same level and for how much and how long it fluctuates


----------



## Dual-500 (Feb 20, 2012)

Read kachong's winador thread. It's discussed in my thread as well. The reason for the RH fluctuations when the system runs a "cool cycle" is condensation forming on the cooling element.

When condensation forms, the air near the cooling element is cooled below the dew point and collects on the element. Until it evaporates back into the environment, the RH will drop, notwithstanding moisture being added by moisture control media. The moisture media will serve to dampen RH swings to some extent - depending upon the range of the swings, etc.

This is discussed in my build thread and the solution I used is also explained. Evaporator plate fans and a fan delay on controller is used. The Evaporator Plate fans run for 3-5 minutes after the compressor shuts off in my rig to dry any possible condensation from the cooling element - thus preventing RH plummeting during a cooling cycle. I'm not sure how bad the condition is in your setup - i.e. does it need fixing or not? It may be something you want to mitigate, or no big deal once it's filled up and the moisture media situation is worked out.

If it needs fixing, it's simple to do.


----------



## Dual-500 (Feb 20, 2012)

Whatever you do - keep on testing - you are learning and will figure it out. Good job!


----------



## Bizumpy (Nov 14, 2014)

Would just to add that I find it interesting that the OP is sophisticated enough to DIY wooden shelving but isn't able to figure out if the unit has a compressor. :shock:


----------



## aliyildirici (Jan 13, 2015)

Thanks for your time I really appreciate it 

so what do you think about these hourly fluctuations effect on the cigars will it damage them or just be fine 

BTW I unplugged the cooler before I go to work to see what temp and RH will be when I get back.


----------



## MDSPHOTO (Sep 10, 2013)

aliyildirici said:


> Thanks for your time I really appreciate it
> 
> so what do you think about these hourly fluctuations effect on the cigars will it damage them or just be fine
> 
> BTW I unplugged the cooler before I go to work to see what temp and RH will be when I get back.


Fluctuations are normal as you get started with your system and your cigars should be fine. Its over the long term that you want to maintain a consistent temp & Rh for proper aging.


----------



## aliyildirici (Jan 13, 2015)

testing again so today I left my cooler off and the temp was constant at 70 f and rh was 65 with 4 72RH bovedas in it 

I will test it for few more days the weather outside will be cooler and I will have to run heating at the house so temps will increase at that time I will turn on the cooler 

also hopefully this week I will get my cedar and make my drawers inside the cooler so we will see what happens


----------



## Bizumpy (Nov 14, 2014)

Dunno man, those are some pretty crazy readings. Only thing I can think of is that your humidor isn't all that air-tight. Otherwise no idea.


----------



## aliyildirici (Jan 13, 2015)

Hello everyone

after testing for few months my system is stable and making me happy every time that I look at it.

I also built the same system for few of my friends everyone has their own humidifying method but I use Quality Rh Beads and Bovedas in it.

I also recharge bovedas I have 10 at recharge and 10 at use at all times to be in the safe side.

If the ambient temp allows I turn the cooler of and temp is stable but if the ambient temp is high I just turn it on and it is again stable at 19 Celcius.

Rh is fixed at 72 at all times with the only exception when the cooler is working to drop the temp and but it is for a short time and than it is stable again

now to the pictures


----------



## aliyildirici (Jan 13, 2015)

Also some pictures of a portion of my stash


----------

