# Trades and passes and splits, OH MY!



## One Lonely Smoker

I think that this thread was warranted in light of deflecting bad responses and opinions in another thread. This thread is for me (and others) to make a point that I feel strongly about. Although I am in a trade right now, I am convinced that both parties are in it for the right reasons and are treating each other with proper respect.
But it has always been my belief that no one should get involved in a trade, split or pass without full knowlege of who is involved, and when possible, should be of suffiecient trust level that the sources of those involved are known. This alone should lead to a tendency to foster trust in that you have to know someone pretty well to be "swapping spit". Is a person involved not who they say they are? You'd better know. I only use this as a standard because more than half of the passers are usually US citizens who should not be breaking the law anyway. Make no mistake, trade, barter and outright sale are all well covered by the law. Hell, they don't even want you SMOKING the damn things. So if you are going to engage in illegal trade, why put yourself in a position to have to answer for it? I know that some people calling themselves newbies jump at the chance to split or trade or buy outright. Well, you had better be ready for the possibility of being duped, because even the people here who can't arrest you are not always big-hearted do-gooders with your best interest in mind. Being duped should give you some recourse in a civilized forum, but why do you think you have the right to ANY compensation at all? You don't. And when someone dupes another forum dude, should they be given the benefit of the doubt and patiently waited on by the dupees? Hell no. It is only through the patience of people who are willing to wait and play it cool til they get their money that people who scam don't get lynched. But for the duper to think they have some right to civil treatment is just dreamy dreamland. So when people do not get involved with people they can't fully trust, they protect themselves from ALL harm. You don't need a refund from a deal that never had the chance to go bad. A poster's reputation here is the only pressure they feel when trading, splitting and passing. If it is expendable to the person, you lose all leverage, period. Woodsy Owl says, just don't do it, :u


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## SeanGAR

Sorry, I think this is a bunch of crap. I say that with all due respect. 

I follow the laws that I need to, that I think are valid, or that have serious consequences. Bullshit laws I ignore. Banning smoking of Cuban cigars is a bullshit law and stupid-ass politicians like Tom Delay who think the laws apply to other people are responsible. I'll smoke any damned cigars I want to .. the Government can kiss my ass.

Oral or sex is illegal in Virginia. It is illegal to have sex with the lights on. I can't drive with bare feet. There are so many stupid laws that violate my right to privacy that I feel that it is my constitutional duty to ignore them. Smoking Cuban cigars is one of these stupid laws.

How about this? A person of color may not be outside or within the city limits after 7 pm. (Dayton). A good law? Should we practice civil disobedience or be lemmings? 

Up until a couple of years ago the provincial government in Nova Scotia still had on the books a bounty for Micmac (indian) scalps. Hey ... its the law ... $100 bucks per scalp is pretty good for killin ******.

There are consequences to breaking laws. My advice is to not get caught or to practice civil disobedience and make a hell of a stink if you get caught.


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## dayplanner

SeanGAR said:


> Sorry, I think this is a bunch of crap. I say that with all due respect.
> 
> I follow the laws that I need to, that I think are valid, or that have serious consequences. Bullshit laws I ignore. Banning smoking of Cuban cigars is a bullshit law and stupid-ass politicians like Tom Delay who think the laws apply to other people are responsible. I'll smoke any damned cigars I want to .. the Government can kiss my ass.
> 
> Oral or sex is illegal in Virginia. It is illegal to have sex with the lights on. I can't drive with bare feet. There are so many stupid laws that violate my right to privacy that I feel that it is my constitutional duty to ignore them. Smoking Cuban cigars is one of these stupid laws.
> 
> How about this? A person of color may not be outside or within the city limits after 7 pm. (Dayton). A good law? Should we practice civil disobedience or be lemmings?
> 
> Up until a couple of years ago the provincial government in Nova Scotia still had on the books a bounty for Micmac (indian) scalps. Hey ... its the law ... $100 bucks per scalp is pretty good for killin ******.
> 
> There are consequences to breaking laws. My advice is to not get caught or to practice civil disobedience and make a hell of a stink if you get caught.


Great post Sean. If I could give you more ring, I would.


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## IHT

i didn't read into OLSs' post what SeanGAR did....

it sounded more like what i was saying in another topic - know who you trade with.

that's what i took away from it.


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## Da Klugs

I liked them both. OLS... I keep rereading it. It's one of those what kind of mood you in / how do you interpret it posts. 

Sean’s is so inspiring. I just tore all those don't tear these off under penalty of law tabs off the couches and chairs. Freedom!!!!

It's a pleasure to be amongst men of eloquent opinion.


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## mr.c

[email protected] .....


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## dayplanner

SeanGAR said:


> Sorry, I think this is a bunch of crap. I say that with all due respect.
> 
> I follow the laws that I need to, that I think are valid, or that have serious consequences. Bullshit laws I ignore. Banning smoking of Cuban cigars is a bullshit law and stupid-ass politicians like Tom Delay who think the laws apply to other people are responsible. I'll smoke any damned cigars I want to .. the Government can kiss my ass.
> 
> Oral or sex is illegal in Virginia. It is illegal to have sex with the lights on. I can't drive with bare feet. There are so many stupid laws that violate my right to privacy that I feel that it is my constitutional duty to ignore them. Smoking Cuban cigars is one of these stupid laws.
> 
> How about this? A person of color may not be outside or within the city limits after 7 pm. (Dayton). A good law? Should we practice civil disobedience or be lemmings?
> 
> Up until a couple of years ago the provincial government in Nova Scotia still had on the books a bounty for Micmac (indian) scalps. Hey ... its the law ... $100 bucks per scalp is pretty good for killin ******.
> 
> There are consequences to breaking laws. My advice is to not get caught or to practice civil disobedience and make a hell of a stink if you get caught.


I'm starting to like you more and more. Bumped you again my friend :u


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## LSU_Stogie

Here is my take on all of this:

Ring Gauge was placed in this forum to show who truly is a FoG and newbie and to me, that is who I place my trust on. I would trust DaKlugs, SeanGar, IHT, RPB, Mo, Radar, PDS, and etc. because these are the guys who have helped me grow not only through cigars but through maturity. 

I trust ring gauge because I trust my own Code of BoTL, I believe that if my fellow members can bump ring gauge to a high level then I can trust this person with a fair trade. 

Of course, I have been proven wrong before (not with this forum), my old roomates took in a New Orleans evacuee and he stole $2,600 3 months later. I went through this ordeal with them and I felt pain, I can no longer trust people but through that I can truly realize whom I can trust and I thank that New Orleans ****er for that. 

I have always trusted someone before distrusting them and that is how I feel with you guys, I will never think poorly of anyone here unless they give me reason to.

I don't even know why I have been gone for so long...I still don't consider myself a Gorilla...I hope to one day be helping new guys as well...

Keep up the good work Guys (you know who you are)


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## One Lonely Smoker

SeanGAR said:


> Sorry, I think this is a bunch of crap. I say that with all due respect.
> .


Well if there is one person here whose material I read with great enthusiasm it's Sean's, so of course I am not taking it badly. Nor do I see his first sentence, taken in context to say OLS is FOS. (I am). In fact it is clear that he and I feel the same about these laws. Anyone who knows me knows that I can say 3 sentences in 90 without even trying. Like IHT said, it's a long way of saying know who you trade with. It also shows how the dreaded fugazi thread has two equal sides, both of which have desparate situations going on, both sides of which can attract equal and reasonable support.
---------------------- 
Geez that lead-off post sounds nasty now that I re-read it. Must be my attempt to scare people out of getting themselves into that situation ongoing in another thread. But every time I have helped a person find the source they were looking for to me it was done because I liked the way they conducted themselves around here and it may or may not have kept them from doing something ill-advised along another tack. Oh, and I am an idiot, never listen to me, lol. And boy do I love to hear myself talk. :r


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## mr.c

Ring gauge means didly squat. Neither does post count. 

What ever happened to time and legwork?


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## Xmodius

One Lonely Smoker said:


> Well if there is one person here whose material I read with great enthusiasm it's Sean's, so of course I am not taking it badly. Nor do I see his first sentence, taken in context to say OLS is FOS. (I am). In fact it is clear that he and I feel the same about these laws. Anyone who knows me knows that I can say 3 sentences in 90 without even trying. Like IHT said, it's a long way of saying know who you trade with. It also shows how the dreaded fugazi thread has two equal sides, both of which have desparate situations going on, both sides of which can attract equal and reasonable support.


Grrrr! Damnit, no! Isn't it all 'black and white'!!!

:al :ms


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## SeanGAR

One Lonely Smoker said:


> It also shows how the dreaded fugazi thread has two equal sides, both of which have desparate situations going on, both sides of which can attract equal and reasonable support.


Well you know I didn't get into anything except the civil disobedience/follow laws aspect of your post.

I agree completely with the last comments regarding reputation. The only thing I would add is that people have a set of unwritten rules regarding these types of cigars and trades/sales. They don't include bombs ... I send somebody a fake Cuban in a bomb and its found to be fake .. so what, you got a free cigar - shut up.

Sales & trades are a different matter, there is an unwritten honor among thieves, so to speak, which says you're responsible for what you pass on. When I used to smoke pot if somebody sold you crappy weed they'd be told about it. Sometimes you got something back ... more often than not you didn't. Cubans kinda remind me of weed like that. I kinda wish I hadn't stopped smoking weed when Reagan was president sometimes ... seems less drama than cigars.

There should be some middle ground in this case where cigars are unavailable. 50 cents on the dollar over 4 months? 80 cents over 12 months? 25% up front? Cigars not money? Beer? 100%? I'll wash your car for life? I don't know, that isn't up to me. George has diligently paid people who returned cigars as best he can. Nobody wants a pound of flesh. I think there should have been more communication here. Christ, I sound like a woman.


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## dadof3illinois

mr.c said:


> Ring gauge means didly squat. Neither does post count.
> 
> What ever happened to time and legwork?


 :tpd:

I agree. We've got so many people with only a few months in CS with a ton of posts and more RG than most of the FOG's.

Post count and RG isn't a gauge of character, it only tells you how active a person is on the board not how much he or she knows about cigars.

You should spend time getting to know a person before buying or splitting cigars or anything for that matter with someone you've never met in person.

I know this whole situation has made me rethink the way I'll do splits in the future. If I can't afford to be out the amount of money I'm paying for the cigars then I shouldn't be buying them in the first place.

Just my :2


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## DrStrangelove

Not that I entirely disagree with you but...



SeanGAR said:


> There are so many stupid laws that violate my right to privacy that I feel that it is my constitutional duty to ignore them. Smoking Cuban cigars is one of these stupid laws.


I don't think that not being able to smoke Cuban cigars is an issue related to a 'constitutional right to privacy'. Whether or not a constitutional right to privacy exists is another matter (and a hotly debated one), but a trade embargo is a law that governs markets. I think the repercussions of a trade embargo on our lives has nothing to do with a 'constitutional right to privacy'.

I just don't think that laws restricting trade between nations are at all comparable to laws restricting sex, driving, and who can stay out after dark...that's all.

:w


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## SeanGAR

DrStrangelove said:


> I think the repercussions of a trade embargo on our lives has nothing to do with a 'constitutional right to privacy'.


Not everything boils down to privacy, sorry if I left the impression I thought that.

Why does the trade embargo exist? For perhaps good reasons in the early 60s with nukes being sent to Cuba, although the president made damned sure he got his havanas before be signed the embargo. Self-serving bullshit politicians screwing the people ... nothing new there, move along folks. Actually I would have supported the embargo initially. Once the Russians backed down there I would not have supported an embargo anymore.

Why does it exist today? You can't make the argument that Cuba is worse than Red China, in fact since Angola crumbled its impossible. The reason we have an embargo is Castro and the Cuban American votes in a swing state, Florida. The other things is that Castro has thumbed his nose at Americans for 45 years and it would be embarassing for American politicians to cave in. The embargo will be lifted when Castro dies. Thats the reason I can't smoke Cubans ... because Castro hasn't croaked yet? Thats the reason? Sorry man, past the Robainas.

Bullshit reason for an embargo so I feel no damned reason to follow it.

It boils down to freedom. I'm willing to give up freedom for good reasons. America was founded by people who came here for freedom. Freedom. The government shouldn't be taking freedom from us for bullshit reasons.


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## RcktS4

Nice posts. Here's the thing that keep sticking out at me: the whole "high ring guage should indicate trustworthiness" thing... RG is a popularity contest. Nothing more, nothing less. Some are popular for knowledge, some for generosity, some for funny pictures, and some for being a wiseass in a way other people like at the right time. Since there's no qualifier for which it is, well, you read what you want into it... me, I don't put a lot of stock in it.

Was the prom queen at your school the most trustworthy person you knew? I mean, everyone voted for her, so she MUST be a good person, right? 

If I could, I'd deduct RG from everyone who thinks RG means anything, just to feed my sense of irony.


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## IHT

LSU_Stogie said:


> Ring Gauge was placed in this forum to show who truly is a FoG and newbie and to me, that is who I place my trust on. I would trust DaKlugs, SeanGar, IHT, RPB, Mo, Radar, PDS, and etc. because these are the guys who have helped me grow not only through cigars but through maturity.
> 
> I trust ring gauge because I trust my own Code of BoTL, I believe that if my fellow members can bump ring gauge to a high level then I can trust this person with a fair trade.


sorry, babyface, but i gotta disagree. not with what RG was "supposed" to be about, but using RG as a way to tell who is a trustable person on here.

there are some people on here who are not FOGs that i would trust more than some other "FOGs" because i know them on a personal level, know their character and know their sources (when we're talking about cigar deals).

the whole post count/RG thing doesn't mean someone can be trusted.

Mr. C hit the nail on the head as well. he doesn't have a high post count, nor a very high RG, yet i would easily trust him in a trade/split.

people have asked why i don't take part in PIFs/box passes. well, to be honest, i don't know half the mo'fo's that are in them.

while this is "just" a public forum, there are some of us who care about the relationships that are built on here. we care enough to find out more about these people. some of us will even give each other a phone call, having never met in person, nor will we get a chance in most cases, but a phone call ever now and then will really let you know what type of person you're dealing with.

when i organized my monthly box splits, i PMed guys i knew, or newbies i wanted to lend a hand to. once they okay'ed it, i asked for their phone number and explained what was going on, and also just to chit chat. i've done it with a # of people on here, some that i still need to call, JUST TO SAY "HI" AND TO TALK TO GUYS I'VE COME TO RESPECT...

not saying you should give everyone a ring that you're about to trade with, BUT DO SOME DAMN LEGWORK ON YOUR OWN. read old topics, look at bombs that were sent by that person, ASK someone who might know them better....

i could ramble on about this subject for a long time.
maybe some of these instances are part of this sites growing pains? so many new guys who want to jump in, not so new guys (but new to a certain aspect of cigars) trying to help others out a little too soon, and stuff backfired.

why was the guy we're talking about so easily trusted?
*high post count (how many posts did he have about cuban cigars?)
*high ring gauge (mostly for being very active in some forums, and he is generous with non-cuban cigars and his homebrew - mostly deserved RG)

not a knock on him, but just because i have a lot of posts doesn't make me an expert. you'd need to talk to bruce, cigartexan, drill, mcgoo, poker, mo, brandon, and a host of others i've left off... but why would i be trusted in a split/trade? cuz i've done it, been taught how to do it by a FOG on here when i was new. when we had some new members here, i did it for them, now they are doing it with other newer members, and the cycle continues. those are guys i would easily trade/split with because i've done it before, i've talked to them, explained how it works, i know the same trusted sources, etc.

i know i'm really blabbing now, it's late here in puerto rico, and i should be doing homework or sleeping... for some odd reason, i'm drinkin port, and watching the golf channel??


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## LSU_Stogie

I agree IHT, I guess just a lot of guys here I respect and would trust my stash with...it's just the way I was raised and I respect you guys...

It could also be that I am considered a youngin around here and my mama didn't raise a disrespectful youth!


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## icehog3

I agree with IHT, Mr C. and dadofill regarding doing your legwork and knowing who you deal with.

I am a self-admited post-whore, and have relatively high RG, yet I bet I know less about Cuban cigars than 90% of the people on this site. I also realize that most of my RG comes from my humor and demeanor and not because I am a cigar expert of any type.

The best part of CS for me has been getting to know some of the people here. These are people I consider friends (even though most I've never met), and that I would feel good about splitting with. I suggest that correspondence with other members or researching their past transactions is a better gauge of trustworthiness than RG.


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## Da Klugs

So here goes.

3000 + posts. 300+ RG. Here less than a year? I am the poster child for all that is wrong and right with the system metrics.

I love the comments that RG does not “insert your thoughts here”. WTF this is our, yes us newbs to, cigar board. Its like saying so and so has “too many credits”. Well they come automatically with posts don’t they? It’s there to show appreciation for something. Knowledge can only be appreciated if it is shared. Members who joined in 1997 and post 2x a month are not adding to the current version of CS that keeps so many of us involved for so much time here. Doesn’t mean they don’t have 3 million cigars and know more than MRN does about our passion. What is does mean is that they will not have “relatively high RG” which is part of the current software. Is this unfair? ROFL. I’m sure most of them laugh hysterically when we even bring the subject up. Well in between smoking cigars most of us can only dream of. (Fockers) 

FOG? Hey we all have our own definitions. I’m sure when IHT joined up there were older more experienced members that “helped” along the way. They are his generations FOG’s. IHT to me is one of my generations FOG’s. He has been here to help, amuse, chide etc. members who came after him. (I use Greg as an example here not to demean him or others, but IHT is short and keeps the 40 comma sentences down.) To me it’s a relative term based upon where you are. Since the RG system has been reset and set back through server problems the numbers move around. But the numbers move based upon involvement in the community. The more you get involved the more you learn, the more older more experienced members you get to interact with. And probably most importantly the older and more experienced you get.

Many FOG’s were kind to me on my journey of discovery here. Mo in particular has provided some initial shoves for me. And unlike most FOG’s here he has remained active in CS for many years. For this I have the utomost respect. Poker, OpusEx, Cigar Texan, NavyDoc, Bruce, DaveC, Drill and many more…the list is long of “my FOG’s”. 

Me and RG? In baseball I would be called a triple threat. I post a lot. Some of it resonates with various parties. I have tried to repay kindnesses by responding as we all do to bombs etc. Being involved in passes, trades, MAW, herfs etc. has been my way of getting involved, saying thank you to the collective kindness as well as an enjoyable way to meet and interact with the BOTL’s here many of whom I count as friends. All of these activities lead to people clicking on the RG button. Is that wrong? Hell I don’t know and to tell the truth it matters less with each passing day. 

It’s natural to create clichés and for generations of inductees to flock together. Anyone who has ever been a member of a fraternity knows this. It’s like The Who “my generation” we each have our own based upon when we start. Over time, things get blurred as you “grow up” here. When you are 17 your perspective of a 21 year old is much different than you as 40 year olds perspective of a 44 year old. It’s the way of the world.

In summary. What do post counts, RG and credits really mean. They mean exactly what they are meant to. Things which add to the experience and conversational texture of Club Stogie. Nothing more, nothing less.


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## icehog3

That's how I would have said it if I wasn't a Doofus.....


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## Neuromancer

IHT said:


> ...when i organized my monthly box splits, i PMed guys i knew, or newbies i wanted to lend a hand to. once they okay'ed it, i asked for their phone number and explained what was going on, and also just to chit chat. i've done it with a # of people on here, some that i still need to call, JUST TO SAY "HI" AND TO TALK TO GUYS I'VE COME TO RESPECT...


This is one of the best idea's I've seen yet...and SeanGar, here's to civil disobedience, another great idea...thank you, Thoreau... :al :u


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## DrStrangelove

Neuromancer said:


> This is one of the best idea's I've seen yet...and SeanGar, here's to civil disobedience, another great idea...thank you, Thoreau... :al :u


Maybe we should be reading more Rousseau?  :tg


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## cbw2647

let's get back to oral sex :tg


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## SeanGAR

DrStrangelove said:


> Maybe we should be reading more Rousseau?  :tg


They both discussed this.

"I became convinced that noncooperation with evil is as much a moral obligation as is cooperation with good. No other person has been more eloquent and passionate in getting this idea across than Henry David Thoreau. As a result of his writings and personal witness, we are the heirs of a legacy of creative protest." - Martin Luther King http://eserver.org/thoreau/civil.html

Rousseau spoke of this approach first ... but he was French and therefore doesn't count.

http://www.constitution.org/jjr/socon.htm

_This post was brought to you by the CSI Havana Group Education Division with funding from the Robert Wood's Johnson Foundation._


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## DrStrangelove

JeanJaquesRousseau said:


> MAN is born free; and everywhere he is in chains. One thinks himself the master of others, and still remains a greater slave than they. How did this change come about? I do not know. What can make it legitimate? That question I think I can answer.


Rousseau made the argument that we give up our Natural rights (i.e. do as we please, smoke cuban cigars, live outside the constraints of society) when we sign a social contract (accept citizenship) - allowing us to live with eachother without anarchic circumstances at the cost of being subject to the rule of government (i.e. a Constitution and what stems from it).

Of course we are not totally helpless, 'government' no longer being the ruthless grip of a monarchy but instead being a representitive democracy - A governing system in which the people, the general will (in France they make you vote), really does effect how we're being ruled. Thanks again Rousseau!

So this is why we are in chains. We can work together and catch the Stag or we can forever be kept to eating rabbits.

If the general will really gave :2 about us being able to smoke cuban cigars, sooner or later we would have elected officials taking care of our needs and we wouldn't be having this conversation. But alas, the general will does not care/agree.

I haven't read the Social Contract since I was 16 (ok, ok, that was only 2 years ago) but I don't remember Rousseau preaching civil disobediance. That would be quite antithetical.



SeanGAR said:


> but he was French and therefore doesn't count.


:r


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## cbw2647

forget the philosophy and get back to cigars, pussy and oral sex :w


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## DrStrangelove

cbw2647 said:


> forget the philosophy and get back to cigars, pussy and oral sex :w


As I heard them say on the TV Guide last week - Thinking is hard, watching TV is easy. Let's just leave the deep thoughts to the egghead.


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## cbw2647

:tpd:


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## SeanGAR

DrStrangelove said:


> Rousseau made the argument that we give up our Natural rights (i.e. do as we please, smoke cuban cigars, live outside the constraints of society) when we sign a social contract (accept citizenship) - allowing us to live with eachother without anarchic circumstances at the cost of being subject to the rule of government (i.e. a Constitution and what stems from it).


Screw the social contract .... ANARCHY RULES!!

Strangelove 1
SeanGAR 0


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## mosesbotbol

We are celebrating the life of Rosa Parks, and all she was, was a law breaker at the time. Law and morality aren't always in parallel.


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## germantown rob

Thank you IHT for giving me something to take away from this thread. I keep reading these recent threads and a question keeps coming up. How do I get to know whos who? I was going to post a thread to ask but you beat me to it and answered it.


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## Mikes

Six years ago I rushed into this hobby and met Poker,Driller K1,Filly,Rat Mousey, Barry the Vic, and others over on ICG. Since then and thru them I met OpusEx, Cigar Texan, Bruce, UCMBA, Parshooter, Benecio, Jeffslat and many other FOG's on CW or various other cigar bbs. Then came the face to face get togethers or herfs at CigarTexans house, or Meeting the SoCal ppl out in Vegas, or just meeting up in San Antonio at the cigar club. I sure am glad that when I was a newbe these fine fellows showed me the light as they are STILL doing for other newbe's today. Bottom line is that I trust these people because of the amount of time I have spent 'talking' with them on the net/ phone, smoking cigars with them IN PERSON, or doing box splits/ passes/ trades. Hell I can remember a time when if you knew the person you could send out cigars before the other party sent payment and not worry about getting burned.

Bottom line is that people these days expect everything handed to them. They don't want to put in the time and effort to get to know others before a trade or a split and by the way a box split is when one person gets 1/2 and the other gets 1/2 - 1 and the box (that's how I was taught and my take anyway). Noobs want to know which vendors have what and how do I order from them NOW. Bottom line is get to KNOW who you are dealing with and save yourself some grief in the end. RG, Bananas, post count, trader comments all mean SQUAT in my book.

Mikes


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## Nooner

Da Klugs said:


> In summary. What do post counts, RG and credits really mean. They mean exactly what they are meant to. Things which add to the experience and conversational texture of Club Stogie. Nothing more, nothing less.


I agree with much of what everyone has said but I'd also like to weigh in another value of Post Count and Ring Gauge, as I think we can all value it differently:

I think RG & Pos Count serve as markers of commitment to the board and the community. Just like the little boy who helps his buddies build a tree house is not going to quit the club and steal all the junk in the clubhouse, so is a person with a high post count or high ring gauge unlikely to stiff the members of the group - they have too much invested in the board to play a finite game where they rip someone(or a number of people) off and walk away. Likewise, nor can they continue to stiff people for an indefinate period of time and still be a member of the group - nearly by definition thievery/poor business ethics is a finite practice. One can only victimize one person or group of people a finite # of times before they need to find another group or people(or are apprehended) and need to move on. I believe the value of RG and Post Count is that this shows an unlikelyhood(is that a word?) that the person will just 'write off' their reputation and investment in the board.

Now does this mean that you shouldn't do as others have said and get to know the person you are purchasing from or trading with? I think not. But I would think that you can have more confidence that should a dispute arise the more RG and higher post count a person has the more likely they would be willing to remedy it and the less likely that they would 'walk away' from this community.

So that is my take on RG and Post Count. I would be more inclined to marginalize Post Count than RG, but I don't think either should be taken lightly. Trust is, they are markers of involvement and commitment, and as such should be used among other things to gauge the intent of the folks on this board.

Cool?


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## Bruce

What MikeS said!
Too many newcomers want instant gratification nowdays. It amazes me how neophytes email me asking me for my vintage sources.....and then get upset when I don't respond to them!
Newcomers don't understand that our treasured sources were a result of a lot of leg work, trial and error and TIME devoted to our passion. This time also helps out with our knowledge base...........the learning experience!
The only way you truly learn and become knowledgable is to "pay your dues" and spend some time researching.

I am by no means an expert.....or even close. I am still learning myself. It's just that I have been doing this for quite a while now and have picked up tibits of info by default!.......LOL


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## Jeff

Da Klugs said:


> In summary. What do post counts, RG and credits really mean. They mean exactly what they are meant to. Things which add to the experience and conversational texture of Club Stogie. Nothing more, nothing less.


Spot on Dave.

Perhaps something good has come out of this fiasco. I think it has been a learning experience to the newer members, and a reminder to others, of the need to be good communicators and to be educated about the hobby we have come together to discuss.

I for one, have been reminded about how little I know of Cubans. Thankfully there are so many members here with loads of experience to learn from. Also, I will be extra careful when trading/buying/selling, and do my homework in order to avoid unpleasant situations.


----------



## knuckles

Personally, I have no desire to achieve a high RG count or a high post count or any high for that matter (with the exception of the buzz one gets from an El Rico Habano). My intentions on CS are to interact with others with the hopes of increasing my knowledge of cigars, getting involved with an occasional contest/trade/PIF/etc., and most importantly making new friends. The RG count and the post count under each person's avatar could disappear tomorrow and I wouldn’t notice. I tend to form impressions of others the old-fashioned way; spending time with them, whether that would be in person or through their writings here on CS. Those that spend any significant amount of time on CS soon realize which gorillas are considered most respected in the jungle. My :2


----------



## Navydoc

Sitting down and taking the time to smoke a cigar with someone allows for exchange of knowledge. I was able to learn a lot over the weekend spending time with some very knowledgeable individuals. We also tend to become more comfortable with those we have met and are more likely to exchange sources after doing so. There are many individuals on this board I would like an opportunity to enjoy a cigar with one-on-one and will certainly make more of an effort to do this in the future.


----------



## smokeydude

I've been reading a lot of threads about trust in trades, the value of ring gauge, and the legalities of the hobby. So far I've basically stayed away from it because I'm only a dopey newbie, however I just have to stick my nose in a little since this thread seems to be brining it all together.

As I said, I see it as a few basic subjects which many of you have made great points on:

Freedoms/legalities 


SeanGAR said:


> It boils down to freedom. I'm willing to give up freedom for good reasons. America was founded by people who came here for freedom. Freedom. The government shouldn't be taking freedom from us for bullshit reasons.


I do agree with this wholeheartedly, however as SeanGAR also pointed out there are consequences to breaking the law. Regardless of whether the law that applies is a "good" law, or an antiquated piece of legislation that exists only to serve a special interest, I will make my own decisions as to my actions. Realizing that there are consequences to certain actions I will not knowingly choose to be in a high risk situation with people I do not know. Would you plan a bank heist with someone you met on the net? I might jaywalk with one, but that's weighting and really a different subject.
Ring Gauge - 
I think this is a nice feature of this club, yet it is most certainly not an absolute measure of anything. There is no group doing background checks or interviews to verify/quantify RG, so how much can it really mean. I think DaKlugs nailed it, after all it's not rocket science.


DaKlugs said:


> In summary. What do post counts, RG and credits really mean. They mean exactly what they are meant to. Things which add to the experience and conversational texture of Club Stogie. Nothing more, nothing less.


Trust -


IHT said:


> IHT
> people have asked why i don't take part in PIFs/box passes. well, to be honest, i don't know half the mo'fo's that are in them.


In my opinion IHT is someone who "gets it". Sure I'd like to go nuts and just start trading like a madman to get all those wonderful smokes i need to try, but I don't really know any of you yet. My approach is slower, send out a few gifts here and there with ZERO expectation. I would not want to risk inadvertently sending something bad in a trade and hurt my rep. I'm a new guy I need to build a rep. I need to read, learn and converse to get a better feel for people, trust will be earned and friends will be made on both sides. Even then I would never, never, never invest more than I was willing to lose. I love to go down to AC and hit the casino, but I'm not going to go into debt to play.
This is a great community and all of these recent threads are actually very good. It's an indication of the self policing that the community puts on itself, as well as the desire to make a friendly, reliable community. So, if you don't mind I think I'll keep sticking around. Now, is there anyone in NY want to get together for a smoke.

Anyway, that's the view of a newbie.


----------



## mcgoospot

Great posts guys. Guess it's time for my pet peeve: The guys that run box passes because they know that each guy is going to try to out do the ones before him and as a result the originator of the box pass (same guy who gets the box at the end), ends up with 4-5X the amount of cigars he put in to start. The only box pass that I didn't have a problem with was when UCMBA ran a 1492 pass where all cigars had to be from 1992 or before (500th anniv. of Columbus discovery of tobacco). The amount of work he put into the pass was amazing. From pre-printed lables to DC#s to coordinating everything. Yet at the end, he split up the extras with guys that gave way too much. In 99% of the box passes I've seen the originator ends up with way more than he put in and didn't do jack-shit other than get the idea and start the ball rolling. The purpose behind the box-pass is to allow guys to try stuff that they have not tried. The purpose was fine. It's the guys that I've HEARD say: "Need to start a box pass. You see all the stuff you end up with???"
That's the wrong attitude!!! Start a box pass for the right reason-to help newbies and guys that have not had the opportunity to try a bunch of stuff. The idea of posting what each guy gives also creates an issue because when one guy goes overboard it looks cheap when the next guy takes the same as he gives. Finally, if you ever participate in one of these don't take more than you give. I've seen guys reputations ruined because they took vintage stuff and replaced it with crap. It's all about intent, honesty and integrity. It can take 15 years to build an upstanding reputation and 15 minutes to lose it.


----------



## Bruce

I've only been in one box pass, and that was the 1492 pass. That was the first, and will be the last. This was a pass that was supposed to be among the elite and knowledgable. Yet, greed reared it's ugly head and some took advantage of the situation. This pass was incredible.....Habanos 1994's, original Bolivar Gold Medals, Dunhill Estupendos, Don Candidos, ect. Yet it could have been even better if it wasn't for the greed of a few members......


----------



## horrorview

Sean's posts are getting me all riled up!! That's it, I'm taking it to the street, and I'm gonna bring down the man, and I'm gonna make my voice hear and I'm gonna...

wha?...

...Oh! I've never seen _this_ episode of MacGuyver!!!


----------



## germantown rob

horrorview said:


> Sean's posts are getting me all riled up!! That's it, I'm taking it to the street, and I'm gonna bring down the man, and I'm gonna make my voice hear and I'm gonna...
> 
> wha?...
> 
> ...Oh! I've never seen _this_ episode of MacGuyver!!!


 :r oh thats classic


----------



## awhitaker

I give all my ring gauge, bananas, credits, waist size, credit card numbers, shoe size, and how many corn dogs I can eat in one sitting to CBID. CBID is the only person that I've done trades with so far. CBID sends me samplers and boxes and I send CBID money. It's always a fair trade and I always get the best end of the deal.


----------



## Jeff

horrorview said:


> ...Oh! I've never seen _this_ episode of MacGuyver!!!


He's the man... 

​


----------



## NCRadioMan

Jeff said:


> ​


Sweet Mullet! 

:ms NCRM


----------



## DrStrangelove

SeanGAR said:


> Screw the social contract .... ANARCHY RULES!!
> 
> Strangelove 1
> SeanGAR 0


I want to hear you say that when you are sitting there eating rabbits while be and my buddies are chowing down on a Stag!


----------



## MoTheMan

mr.c said:


> Ring gauge means didly squat. Neither does post count.
> 
> *What ever happened to time and legwork?*


Yeah?!

As Yoda would say, "Greed. Greed leads to pain & suffering, greed does."
 


dadof3illinois said:


> I agree. We've got so many people with only a few months in CS with a ton of posts and more RG than most of the FOG's.
> 
> Post count and RG isn't a gauge of character, it only tells you how active a person is on the board not how much he or she knows about cigars.
> 
> You should spend time getting to know a person before buying or splitting cigars or anything for that matter with someone you've never met in person.
> 
> I know this whole situation has made me rethink the way I'll do splits in the future. If I can't afford to be out the amount of money I'm paying for the cigars then I shouldn't be buying them in the first place.


Very good. Very simple. Clear & to the point.

Really couldn't have said it better myself.


----------



## catfishm2

cbw2647 said:


> forget the philosophy and get back to cigars, pxxxy and oral sex :w


I know we are adults here and we push it to the limit sometimes, but this is completely disrespectful to the women of this forum.


----------



## cbw2647

ok,,,not oral sex,


----------



## SeanGAR

DrStrangelove said:


> I want to hear you say that when you are sitting there eating rabbits while be and my buddies are chowing down on a Stag!


I've always wondered why I prefer rabbit meat to deer.

I remember days my dad I would come home with >18 wabbits between us.

Uhmmm ... good eatin'.


----------



## justinphilly-cl

mr.c said:


> Ring gauge means didly squat. Neither does post count.


I totally agree.. I mean, look at my post count and RG, and I'm a TOTAL A-HOLE!!!


----------



## punch

catfishm2 said:


> I know we are adults here and we push it to the limit sometimes, but this is completely disrespectful to the women of this forum.


Why is sex always supposed to be disrespectful to women? OS works both ways. Let's face it, for women, sex is a way to get what they want. For men, sex IS what they want. Seems to me that the women have the upper hand in this deal. But then again, I'm niether female nor gay, so I may be missing something here.


----------



## germantown rob

justinphilly said:


> I totally agree.. I mean, look at my post count and RG, and I'm a TOTAL A-HOLE!!!


 :tpd:


----------



## cbw2647

punch said:


> Why is sex always supposed to be disrespectful to women? OS works both ways. Let's face it, for women, sex is a way to get what they want. For men, sex IS what they want. Seems to me that the women have the upper hand in this deal. But then again, I'm niether female nor gay, so I may be missing something here.


With all due respect ( or disrespect), as much as I love women ( and I am married and have daughters), if they didn't have that crack between their legs, they'd be kept in cages.....and I'm neither joking nor being sarcastic

and wait until menopause,,,you younger ****ers ain't seen nothing yet :z


----------



## altbier

punch said:


> Why is sex always supposed to be disrespectful to women? OS works both ways. Let's face it, for women, sex is a way to get what they want. For men, sex IS what they want. Seems to me that the women have the upper hand in this deal. But then again, I'm niether female nor gay, so I may be missing something here.


If you figure it out, let me know. I am sure every man on this board has some questions for you.


----------



## cbw2647

altbier said:


> If you figure it out, let me know. I am sure every man on this board has some questions for you.


Amen,,,I friggin gave up


----------



## RcktS4

cbw2647 said:


> With all due respect ( or disrespect), as much as I love women ( and I am married and have daughters), if they didn't have that crack between their legs, they'd be kept in cages.....and I'm neither joking nor being sarcastic


This is perhaps the most asinine thing I have ever seen posted here. I have absolutely no response to it other than:

KEEP THE HELL AWAY FROM EVERY FEMALE MEMBER OF MY FAMILY. You are not welcome to speak to them, look at them, and god help you if you ever work for any of them.

goodbye.


----------



## cbw2647

RcktS4 said:


> This is perhaps the most asinine thing I have ever seen posted here. I have absolutely no response to it other than:
> 
> KEEP THE HELL AWAY FROM EVERY FEMALE MEMBER OF MY FAMILY. You are not welcome to speak to them, look at them, and god help you if you ever work for any of them.
> 
> goodbye.


You're either brain dead or very young :w


----------



## croatan

RcktS4 said:


> This is perhaps the most asinine thing I have ever seen posted here. I have absolutely no response to it other than:
> 
> KEEP THE HELL AWAY FROM EVERY FEMALE MEMBER OF MY FAMILY. You are not welcome to speak to them, look at them, and god help you if you ever work for any of them.
> 
> goodbye.


:tpd: Why would you post something like that?



cbw2647 said:


> You're either brain dead or very young


Again, uncalled for. Are you just _trying _to stir stuff up?


----------



## cbw2647

altbier said:


> If you figure it out, let me know. I am sure every man on this board has some questions for you.


cause it's true

but I'm done,,,let's all smoke a cigar :sb


----------



## DrStrangelove

RcktS4 said:


> This is perhaps the most asinine thing I have ever seen posted here. I have absolutely no response to it other than:
> 
> KEEP THE HELL AWAY FROM EVERY FEMALE MEMBER OF MY FAMILY. You are not welcome to speak to them, look at them, and god help you if you ever work for any of them.
> 
> goodbye.


 :tpd: I wasn't entirely sure what to post when I read that, so thank you for summing up my thoughts RcktS4

so it looks like you're going to be assigned a little philosophy homework after all cbw, you get to read

John Stuart Mill


----------



## catfishm2

punch said:


> But then again, I'm niether female nor gay, so I may be missing something here.


I really hope you're not insinuating something here.


----------



## icehog3

horrorview said:


> Sean's posts are getting me all riled up!! That's it, I'm taking it to the street, and I'm gonna bring down the man, and I'm gonna make my voice hear and I'm gonna...


He was standing at the rock
Gathering the flock
And getting there with no directions
And underneath the arch
It turned into a march
And there he found the spark to 
Set this ****er off

(chorus)
He said set if off
Set it off now children
Set it right
Set it off
Set it off now children
Set a fire

Suddenly a shot
Ripped into his heart
he lay in need some attention
And there he played his card
Going into shock
The last thing that he said was 
Set this ****er off


----------



## Da Klugs

catfishm2 said:


> I really hope you're not insinuating something here.


 :r I missed that. er not really but hope he isn't.


----------



## catfishm2

punch said:


> Why is sex always supposed to be disrespectful to women? OS works both ways. Let's face it, for women, sex is a way to get what they want. For men, sex IS what they want. Seems to me that the women have the upper hand in this deal. But then again, I'm niether female nor gay, so I may be missing something here.


No Dave, this is the post. I meant insinuating something toward me.


----------



## Da Klugs

punch said:


> Why is sex always supposed to be disrespectful to women? OS works both ways. Let's face it, for women, sex is a way to get what they want. For men, sex IS what they want. Seems to me that the women have the upper hand in this deal. *But then again, I'm niether female nor gay, so I may be missing something here*.


Thats the one I was quoting.... thought the missing something alluded to a physical absence of .... well you know.  (Not a shot at you Punch just the wordplay is funny)


----------



## cbw2647

Da Klugs said:


> Thats the one I was quoting.... thought the missing something alluded to a physical absence of .... well you know.  (Not a shot at you Punch just the wordplay is funny)


I did my homework:

Sex: Women need a reason, men just need a place..........
 the end


----------



## Bruce5

Reading this thread was like digging thru a thousand pounds
of camel shit to find a couple gems. 

What stood out to me mainly is:
1) Know and trust who you trade with, don't be an idiot.
2) Patience and time is how one gets experience.
3) A big part of this hobby is relationships.


----------



## mr.c

Bruce5 said:


> Reading this thread was like digging thru a thousand pounds
> of camel shit to find a couple gems.
> 
> What stood out to me mainly is:
> 1) Know and trust who you trade with, don't be an idiot.
> 2) Patience and time is how one gets experience.
> 3) A big part of this hobby is relationships.


Sad isnt it ?

Bruce 5 summed it up well.
mods throw a padlock on this thread!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Thurm15

mr.c said:


> Sad isnt it ?
> 
> Bruce 5 summed it up well.
> mods throw a padlock on this thread!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I believe what this thread needs is a High Colonic!


----------



## Ms. Floydp

I don't think I've ever heard of such disrespect to women before. At least not out loud. Don't really know what to say about it other than to consider the source. Wow, that's just plain ignorance. I don't like to see threads shut down but I wouldn't mind seeing a few posts removed from this one.


----------



## mr.c

Ms. Floydp said:


> I don't think I've ever heard of such disrespect to women before. At least not out loud. .


You should hear frank in the chat room then WOW!

J/k


----------



## Ms. Floydp

mr.c said:


> You should hear frank in the chat room then WOW!
> 
> J/k


 :r Frank said thanks alot Joe.... the lists of chores just grew... LOL


----------



## knuckles

Ms. Floydp said:


> :r Frank said thanks alot Joe.... the lists of chores just grew... LOL


hehehe. :r


----------



## IHT

Ms. Floydp said:


> ....other than to consider the source. Wow, that's just plain ignorance. I don't like to see threads shut down but I wouldn't mind seeing a few posts removed from this one.


wish i could help out on that front...


----------



## cbw2647

IHT said:


> wish i could help out on that front...


The pain of reality :w


----------



## rumballs

cbw2647 said:


> I'm neither joking nor being sarcastic


wow!
that has to be the stupidest thing I've ever read, anywhere!


----------



## Gordon in NM

cbw2647 said:


> With all due respect ( or disrespect), as much as I love women ( and I am married and have daughters), if they didn't have that ***** between their legs, they'd be kept in cages.....and I'm neither joking nor being sarcastic
> 
> and wait until menopause,,,you younger ****ers ain't seen nothing yet :z


Those are the words of one small and pitiful excuse for a man.

Insulted? I'll be happy to post my address and buy you a bus ticket here so you can express your outrage personally!

I'll have my wife video it so the members of the board can see how tough you are Mr. keep 'em in a cage.

I'm not kidding, what do you say?

Gordon


----------



## DrStrangelove

Bruce5 said:


> Reading this thread was like digging thru a thousand pounds
> of camel shit to find a couple gems.
> 
> What stood out to me mainly is:
> 1) Know and trust who you trade with, don't be an idiot.
> 2) Patience and time is how one gets experience.
> 3) A big part of this hobby is relationships.


C'mon Bruce, you forgot



SeanGAR said:


> DrStrangelove 1
> SeanGAR 0


----------



## LSU_Stogie

cbw2647 said:


> The pain of reality :w


Who the hell is this guy?

That was complete and utter garbage.

I see morals weren't a part of your upbringing and I'm guessing you like to beat women as well..

Unless this is some kind of sick joke, I don't think I want this sorry excuse for a, and I use the word loosely, man cluttering up the boards.

And, if you happen to be older than I am, that is just plain ignorance. I don't care how old/young you are, you respect women. I would consider myself more mature than you based on these comments you have made..

GTFO


----------



## IHT

LSU_Stogie said:


> Who the hell is this guy?
> 
> That was complete and utter garbage.
> 
> I see morals weren't a part of your upbringing and I'm guessing you like to beat women as well..
> 
> Unless this is some kind of sick joke, I don't think I want this sorry excuse for a, and I use the word loosely, man cluttering up the boards.
> 
> And, if you happen to be older than I am, that is just plain ignorance. I don't care how old/young you are, you respect women. I would consider myself more mature than you based on these comments you have made..
> 
> GTFO


lol...

"hey, someone go tell whitney to get off the pipe, she's got a song to sing...."

_"DID YOU EVER KNOW THAT YOU'RE MY HERO....
YOU'RE EVERYTHING THAT I WISH I COULD BEEEEEEEE...."_


----------



## tecnorobo

Wow that was a big read.
this is the only thing that comes to mind.










why the random picture? that's how my brain feels at the moment.
but seriously like bruce5 said there are some real gems in this thread.
sheesh.. and like the picture there is some real dumb stuff in here too.


----------



## SeanGAR

LSU_Stogie said:


> Who the hell is this guy?


Here is his picture. Why bother with women when there is somebody ewe love?


----------



## tecnorobo

SeanGAR said:


> Here is his picture. Why bother with women when there is somebody ewe love?


oh man hahaha.
best laugh in a while.


----------



## coppertop

cbw2647 said:


> With all due respect ( or disrespect), as much as I love women ( and I am married and have daughters), if they didn't have that crack between their legs, they'd be kept in cages.....and I'm neither joking nor being sarcastic
> 
> and wait until menopause,,,you younger ****ers ain't seen nothing yet :z


Dude, I think you need to leave the Jungle and not come back....EVER!!!! Your comments are not welcome here, nor are they funny. I'm sorry for your wife and daughters. I don't know why you would say this...I really don't. I am young, 28 yrs old. And I've never had cause to say such things about women. I've run across some I didn't care for, but 97% have been truely amazing people. And I've learned many valuable lessons from them, matter of fact I applied one before responding to this comment. I calmed down and collected my thoughts. If I hadn't this would be all cuss words chewing you a new asshole. But, with all respect (or disrespect) get the F*CK OFF CS!!!


----------



## coppertop

LSU_Stogie said:


> I really don't understand...


REALLY??? WOW to be young and ignorant of such things. Whitney Houston has been accused in the past of abusing Crack. So, Gregs comment about telling Whitney to get off the pipe was referring to her crack use. Hope this helps....young'in


----------



## IHT

LSU_Stogie said:


> I really don't understand...


i thought your post was 'spot on'.
so, we cued whitney houston to sing "did you ever know that you're my hero" for the post you made...
my twisted thoughts this late at night. i had something else posted, that was funnier, but very crude (not aimed at you).


----------



## LSU_Stogie

coppertop said:


> REALLY??? WOW to be young and ignorant of such things. Whitney Houston has been accused in the past of abusing Crack. So, Gregs comment about telling Whitney to get off the pipe was referring to her crack use. Hope this helps....young'in


lol I understand now, I think...

I believe it was a compliment

And thats Mr. Babyface to you!

*i'm no youngin*


----------



## coppertop

LSU_Stogie said:


> lol I understand now, I think...
> 
> I believe it was a compliment
> 
> And thats Mr. Babyface to you!
> 
> *i'm no youngin*


OH, I'm sorry Mr. Babyface


----------



## IHT

coppertop said:


> with all respect (or disrespect) get the F*CK OFF CS!!!


here's another LSU Stogie won't get, but i'll give him a clue (Porky's).

"so sayeth the shepherd...?"

"so sayeth the flock!"

or, more up the youngins strike zone... this one is from alice in wonderland.

"OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!"

so, i'm saying, mr. babyface, with my first quote of porky's, that i agree with coppertop, that this dude should find a new home, even if the option become unvoluntarily for him.

the 2nd one... well, it's obvious (other than i need sleep), off with his head.

"death row, what LSU Stogie knows."


----------



## LSU_Stogie

coppertop said:


> OH, I'm sorry Mr. Babyface


That's right...


----------



## coppertop

LSU_Stogie said:


> That's right...


Ok, thats it. I'm officially freaked out


----------



## tecnorobo

baby face you have nothing on me


----------



## knuckles

I've been reading some of the :BS this guy has been writing all over the board. And I just took a look at his post history... I gotta wonder how this guy has survived as a member as long as he has.


----------



## coppertop

But you look older Blake. By the way you are legal now...you want that Punch RS12 to try?


----------



## tecnorobo

haha, you are right, i am legal.
It pretty much owns going to places and being able to buy cigars.
you know what sucks?
I haven't been carded once... haha

anyhow, punch rs12?


----------



## coppertop

knuckles said:


> I've been reading some of the :BS this guy has been writing all over the board. And I just took a look at his post history... I gotta wonder how this guy has survived as a member as long as he has.


I've never seen him before. And if Greg hadn't PMed me I still wouldn't. His posts have been reported as bad posts. Personally the dude needs to get out of CS. Either he leaves on his own terms or gets the boot, either way I don't give a crap.


----------



## knuckles

coppertop said:


> I've never seen him before. And if Greg hadn't PMed me I still wouldn't. His posts have been reported as bad posts. Personally the dude needs to get out of CS. Either he leaves on his own terms or gets the boot, either way I don't give a crap.


I ditto that!


----------



## RcktS4

knuckles said:


> I've been reading some of the :BS this guy has been writing all over the board. And I just took a look at his post history... I gotta wonder how this guy has survived as a member as long as he has.


IT's not his fault - he was obviously raised by a family who wanted a girl, strapped into a too-tight jock strap at a young age, and sent to an all-girl's catholic school where he was tormented, beaten, and never once got invited to the makeover slumber parties.

The real pity is he says he has children. I can only hope their mother is more sensible - though she married him which leads me to believe she is: a) stupid, b) his cousin, and c) a freakin idiot. Shame.


----------



## MoTheMan

cbw2647 said:


> The pain of reality :w


WHOA!

Not as a moderator of this forum but as a fellow gorilla.
I found these series of comments VERY offensive and just don't belong here.
To hell with the consequences, *negative RG given!!*
Add the following comment, "Sorry but I find these comments very inappropriate & offensive", and I think I'm being nice here.


----------



## AAlmeter

cbw2647 said:


> With all due respect ( or disrespect), as much as I love women ( and I am married and have daughters), if they didn't have that crack between their legs, they'd be kept in cages.....and I'm neither joking nor being sarcastic
> 
> and wait until menopause,,,you younger ****ers ain't seen nothing yet :z


One could let this slide, saying you had a crappy night with the wife or something of the sort....but you have made me agree with Raney, for that you will never be forgiven.


----------



## LSU_Stogie

tecnorobo said:


> baby face you have nothing on me


That ain't even fair Blake...

lol, yes you may be younger but I still have the babyface..I get carded all the time...


----------



## knuckles

RcktS4 said:


> The real pity is he says he has children. I can only hope their mother is more sensible - though she married him which leads me to believe she is: a) stupid, b) his cousin, and c) a freakin idiot. Shame.


I don't believe a bit of that. I think he's a punk kid just stinking up the joint.

Ah well, I haven't had my evening smoke yet, so i'm retiring to the back porch. See ya all later! :w


----------



## LSU_Stogie

MoTheMan said:


> WHOA!
> 
> Not as a moderator of this forum but as a fellow gorilla.
> I found these series of comments VERY offensive and just don't belong here.
> To hell with the consequences, *negative RG given!!*
> Add the following comment, "Sorry but I find these comments very inappropriate & offensive", and I think I'm being nice here.


I don't think negative RG is even enough of a punishment.

People that degrade women make me want to have my sister trained in shooting weapons, and she is only 12. She is too precious to me that I can let someone degrade her, and don't say you didn't cbw2647 because when you say "women" you include the entire gender...and that means my mother and my sister and every female of my family...this is not to be taken lightly.

I'll sleep sound tonight anyways but I would feel justified in saying this is a bannable offence, especially from a newcomer.

Bad time to talk like that cbw2647, esp. with the recent posts of whats considered degrading.


----------



## coppertop

RcktS4 said:


> IT's not his fault - he was obviously raised by a family who wanted a girl, strapped into a too-tight jock strap at a young age, and sent to an all-girl's catholic school where he was tormented, beaten, and never once got invited to the makeover slumber parties.
> 
> The real pity is he says he has children. I can only hope their mother is more sensible - though she married him which leads me to believe she is: a) stupid, b) his cousin, and c) a freakin idiot. Shame.


Raney, you never cease to make me smile, laugh or shake my head. I couldn't agree more. Thanks for the laugh bro.

I also gave some negative RG to this Neanderthal.


----------



## germantown rob

LSU_Stogie said:


> I don't think negative RG is even enough of a punishment.
> 
> People that degrade women make me want to have my sister trained in shooting weapons, and she is only 12. She is too precious to me that I can let someone degrade her, and don't say you didn't cbw2647 because when you say "women" you include the entire gender...and that means my mother and my sister and every female of my family...this is not to be taken lightly.
> 
> I'll sleep sound tonight anyways but I would feel justified in saying this is a bannable offence, especially from a newcomer.
> 
> Bad time to talk like that cbw2647, esp. with the recent posts of whats considered degrading.


Sad thing is I have tried to train every women I know into learning to use fire arms and to get a carry permit. Big city like philly has alot of people you wouldn't want your family around. Matter of fact so does every where.


----------



## LSU_Stogie

germantown rob said:


> Sad thing is I have tried to train every women I know into learning to use fire arms and to get a carry permit. Big city like philly has alot of people you wouldn't want your family around. Matter of fact so does every where.


i used to live in Cherry Hill, NJ


----------



## punch

catfishm2 said:


> I really hope you're not insinuating something here.


 Not to worry. I was having a bit of fun here, but I see this has gotten completely out of hand (again). I stand by my comment on sex. I find it rather two faced that women are all too willing to use sex to get what they want, and then when they get what they want, the subject is taboo. For that they can . . . well, we won't go there. Far too many women consider a man nothing other than a paycheck, but I seldom see people express the same indignation at that as they do a man not seeing a woman as anything other than a toy. Both are wrong, but unfortunately, both are a reality in too many cases. No, I don't have a very high opinion of women in general. But then again, I don't have a very high opinion of men either, or for that matter, humanity in general.

For the record, I don't think that ALL women are gold diggers any more than I think that ALL men are perverts (well, I am more sure of the former). I like to have fun with the stereotypes. But I can see this has gotten out of hand and people have taken offense. Not all people see things the same way, and that is perhaps why it is a good idea not to approach some topics using a media where it is not always obvious that a person is pulling someone's leg. I have a rather dry and dark sense of humor, and that has gotten me into a fix more than once. So, for anyone who thinks that I think they are gay, I don't. And furthermore, I really would not care less, or think less of you, if you were. And for any women on this list who thinks that I think they are toys or objects, I don't. Any woman who is into cigars is automatically cool in my book. I quite frankly am not intimidated by a woman that is my equal. I find them rather interesting and refreshing. There is a wonderful synergy when the differences between men and women are used for each others mutual benefit rather than to gain an advantage or manipulate each other. This can ONLY come with honest equality.


----------



## poker

cbw, you are so close to being banned its not even funny. 

16 complaints in my PM box, 1 phone call, & 7 emails on this thread alone today about your post.


----------



## LiteHedded

poker said:


> cbw, you are so close to being banned its not even funny.
> 
> 16 complaints in my PM box, 1 phone call, & 7 emails on this thread alone today about your post.


 :r 
that has to be a record
I say give him the boot!


----------



## MoTheMan

poker said:


> cbw, you are so close to being banned its not even funny.
> 
> 16 complaints in my PM box, 1 phone call, & 7 emails on this thread alone today about your post.


6 e-mails and about 12 PM's over here. Jeez!


----------



## icehog3

Mike, I couldn't agree with your user note more. 

Looking back at the posts, it's rare that cbw2647 adds anything informative, humorous, or even civil to a thread. I would vote for banishment if this were a democracy. But you know he will just sign up under another title and start his nonsense again. 

If any of your alleged children are female, may they be talked about and treated the way you treat women.


----------



## dayplanner

IP address ban :gn


----------



## DrStrangelove

Franksmith said:


> IP address ban :gn


 :tpd: took the words right out of my mouth franksmith


----------



## icehog3

Franksmith said:


> IP address ban :gn


Computer savvy Gorilla, you!


----------



## RPB67

[No message]


----------



## cbw2647

poker said:


> cbw, you are so close to being banned its not even funny.
> 
> 16 complaints in my PM box, 1 phone call, & 7 emails on this thread alone today about your post.


Well, I guess this has gone far enough,,,,,


----------



## Da Klugs

cbw2647 said:


> Well, I guess this has gone far enough,,,,,


It would probably end differently with an apology and a change in behavior.

Just a thought.


----------



## Nely

knuckles said:


> I don't believe a bit of that. I think he's a punk kid just stinking up the joint.
> 
> Ah well, I haven't had my evening smoke yet, so i'm retiring to the back porch. See ya all later! :w


He is not a punk kid. He is an adult and I believe you and I even herfed with him at LJ's. I usually stay out of this things, but I got to say that we need to remember we did not hatch out of a chicken's egg. We are born from a woman.


----------



## germantown rob

Da Klugs said:


> It would probably end differently with an apology and a change in behavior.
> 
> Just a thought.


I agree. I do not like what this guy has said and took rg from him but I feel very strongly about freedom of speech and censorship.


----------



## knuckles

Nely said:


> He is not a punk kid. He is an adult and I believe you and I even herfed with him at LJ's. I usually stay out of this things, but I got to say that we need to remember we did not hatch out of a chicken's egg. We are born from a woman.


Thanks Nely. I received a couple of PM's that he was at LJ's at the last herf. I actually don't remember talking to him much (may have, but I typically work a room quite a bit  ). So I take back the punk-kid remark.

I think some of his recent remarks are over-the-top... and a few apologies would go a long way towards clearing this up; especially towards the SOTL's (i.e. Anita) on CS.


----------



## Mikes

WTF has happened to this thread? It has gone from an informative post on trades, splits, and general cigar knowledge to this? Imo there are about 4 pages of off topic bs that need to be removed.


Jeezzzz :ms :c


----------



## croatan

cbw2647 said:


> The pain of reality :w


 It's nice to know that I can now ding people 2 RG points


----------



## croatanita

I can't add much to this thread that hasn't already been well-said, just wanted to go on record as being absolutely disgusted with a comment in such poor taste. Major party foul, cbw! :hn


----------



## LSU_Stogie

Mikes said:


> WTF has happened to this thread? It has gone from an informative post on trades, splits, and general cigar knowledge to this? Imo there are about 4 pages of off topic bs that need to be removed.
> 
> Jeezzzz :ms :c


They won't be removed because its not "off topic bs", it is something that is needing to be dealt with and it just happened to come up in this thread.

And if you look closely this whole thread, along with about 2 others, were about George and the bad sales...so I think one is entitled to being taken off George's back.


----------



## LSU_Stogie

germantown rob said:


> I agree. I do not like what this guy has said and took rg from him but I feel very strongly about freedom of speech and censorship.


Yes, you are right, censorship and freedom of speech are a staple in this country and I would defend it to the death.

But, on the another note, when you have to "sign up" and be administered into this forum, I would say that this is a Private Forum and we have the right to ban whom we feel is running their mouth and filling this forum with unwarranted slander.

I also feel that his comments towards women infringes on their rights.

It is much like these "radical christians" who tell me I am going to hell because I am a Catholic and do all this sort of stuff, if I didn't want to argue with them all the time and I just happened to want to ignore it and they call me out, that is infringing on my rights in my own eyes, I shouldn't have to deal with it if I ignore it.

:2


----------



## Da Klugs

A couple more negative RG contributions and the "off topic subject" will be automatically eliminated. (I remember PDS posting that -15 RG = autoban but I could be wrong.)


----------



## SeanGAR

Da Klugs said:


> A couple more negative RG contributions and the "off topic subject" will be automatically eliminated. (I remember PDS posting that -15 RG = autoban but I could be wrong.)


I proudly did my part already.


----------



## Da Klugs

SeanGAR said:


> I proudly did my part already.


Me too! I only wish it could have been more.


----------



## colgate

Da Klugs said:


> Me too! I only wish it could have been more.


me three. free speech? yeah whatever. this is just a weak azzed troll job to see what kind of reaction he'd get.


----------



## JezterVA

cbw - very disrespectful. it never ceases to amaze me that there are still people around in this day and age of 2005 that still hold these types of twisted views and values. You've obviously got issues that need to be resolved. Preferably with therapy. I'd really like to have the opportunity to get a look inside you're freezer. People like you frighten me. They profile folks like you on the FBI's most wanted list.

I find it amusing that I've been readnig this thread for 10 minutes this morning, and your RG has gone from -9 to -13 in that short period. I vote in favor of the BAN HAMMER. I think I'll take this opportunity to make it a nice even -14.

Cheers!!
Steve


----------



## JezterVA

Da Klugs said:


> A couple more negative RG contributions and the "off topic subject" will be automatically eliminated. (I remember PDS posting that -15 RG = autoban but I could be wrong.)


HA!! -15 has been reached at this point. See ya, cbw.


----------



## SDmate

Mikes said:


> WTF has happened to this thread? It has gone from an informative post on trades, splits, and general cigar knowledge to this? Imo there are about 4 pages of off topic bs that need to be removed.
> 
> Jeezzzz :ms :c


this thread is definitly not off topic :BS 
it's more educational to young monkeys than you think,it's showing the newbs what happens when ya don't pull ya head out ya a$$ before ya post

Think before ya post,if it's for shock value only don't be shocked when ya RG takes a dump & yer banned 
:2


----------



## germantown rob

colgate said:


> me three. free speech? yeah whatever. this is just a weak azzed troll job to see what kind of reaction he'd get.


I am not disagreeing with anyone on what this guy had to say. It was small minded and well just idiotic.

I am just speechless to your comment.."free speech? yeah whatever."


----------



## One Lonely Smoker

As the originator of the thread, you certainly have my thumbs up if you want to yank the entire thread. It was originally started to vent my feelings on those "other threads" and to take the pressure off of them as well. But while the original info was certianly one man's opinion on trading with people you don't know, there were alot of people who thought otherwise. I don't think anyone on the board would miss it if it was pulled. And I think anyone interested in it read it before it got ugly. Yank it.


----------



## LSU_Stogie

germantown rob said:


> I am not disagreeing with anyone on what this guy had to say. It was small minded and well just idiotic.
> 
> I am just speechless to your comment.."free speech? yeah whatever."


I reiterate that this is, in my eyes, a private forum since you have to sign up for it


----------



## Da Klugs

Let's not forget the parting gifts.

Jim tell him what he's won...

Parting Gift


----------



## germantown rob

Da Klugs said:


> Let's not forget the parting gifts.
> 
> Jim tell him what he's won...
> 
> Parting Gift


Oh man, thats good! :r I never tire of your posts, I don't think anyone has been able to make me laugh as much as you...thank you!


----------



## kvm

As Emeril says "Bam" -17


----------



## SeanGAR

germantown rob said:


> I am not disagreeing with anyone on what this guy had to say. It was small minded and well just idiotic.
> 
> I am just speechless to your comment.."free speech? yeah whatever."


A white guy can't walk around dropping the N-bomb in the name of free speech. You can't go around saying Hitler was a great guy with great ideas. You can't go around saying women should be kept in cages.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4417298.stm

This loser (see link) spouted his vile "free speech" in Canada way too long. I hoped that somebody would have taken care of the problem but eventually the Government did deport him ... 20 years too late in my opinion.


----------



## germantown rob

SeanGAR said:


> A white guy can't walk around dropping the N-bomb in the name of free speech. You can't go around saying Hitler was a great guy with great ideas. You can't go around saying women should be kept in cages.
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4417298.stm
> 
> This loser (see link) spouted his vile "free speech" in Canada way too long. I hoped that somebody would have taken care of the problem but eventually the Government did deport him ... 20 years too late in my opinion.


I read the article, and it is sad that there are ignorent jerks out there. I wish I could use my own personal sense of justice on many sad individuals out there, but I can only legally do this if myself or another is in immediate danger or harm. That being said that article was not in the US where free speech is aloud by even the worst people.

I have said many of a wrong thing in my 37 years and it was the individuals that herd my crap and talked to me rationally about there point of view. These people I thank, they made a differance in educating me out of narrow minded thoughts. This may just work best with my personality but I have found applying this to people I come across has worked very well. Instead of name calling.

Sorry for all this :BS but as I said I take this right very seriously. (I really am not trying to start an argument here. Sorry if I ofend)


----------



## poker

cbw2647 said:


> Well, I guess this has gone far enough,,,,,


yes it has.
8 more complaint PM's since my last post & another phone call.
Its over. The door is shut.

Also the free speech thing dosent apply here. Its a private board & privately owned & operated. If you cant play well with others, there are many other boards available out there.


----------



## NCRadioMan

poker said:


> yes it has.
> 8 more complaint PM's since my last post & another phone call.
> Its over. The door is shut.
> 
> Also the free speech thing dosent apply here. Its a private board & privately owned & operated. If you cant play well with others, there are many other boards available out there.


Thank you, sir!

:ms NCRM


----------



## Jeff

SeanGAR said:


> I proudly did my part already.


Can't give him neg RG anymore.


----------



## SeanGAR

germantown rob said:


> That being said that article was not in the US where free speech is aloud by even the worst people.


I doubt that free speech differs much between here and in Canada. In fact, it appears to me that laws are a little more "liberal" up there.

The (former) president of the University of Florida, in his own house mind you, called his boss (who wasn't there at the time), who is black, an oreo. I didn't know what meant until somebody explained it ... black on the outside, white on the inside.

Needless to say, he is no longer the president down there (for that and other reasons). Course, he is the Chancellor at U Mass now, so its not like anything terrible happened, but instructive that even in your own house, if you are a public figure and speak in public, there can be consequences.


----------



## ky toker

> Needless to say, he is no longer the president down there (for that and other reasons). Course, he is the Chancellor at U Mass now, so its not like anything terrible happened, but instructive that even in your own house, if you are a public figure and speak in public, there can be consequences.


Because there can be consequences from the general public or a work area does not mean you don't have freedom of speach. This is what the Dixie Chics tried to argue when there was a backlash to their comments about Pres. Bush. They were free to say what ever they liked, but people _have the right_ to not by their tickets because of that.

That guy had the right to say what he wanted about his boss and whether he was fired or not his rights weren't infringed on. Not until the government steps in and prohibits that language.

Just like this moron, he said what he did and there was a backlash. He may have been banned, he was torched, but nothing infringed on his right of speach because he is allowed to spew his garbage somewhere else.


----------



## NCatron

ky toker said:


> Because there can be consequences from the general public or a work area does not mean you don't have freedom of speach. This is what the Dixie Chics tried to argue when there was a backlash to their comments about Pres. Bush. They were free to say what ever they liked, but people _have the right_ to not by their tickets because of that.
> 
> That guy had the right to say what he wanted about his boss and whether he was fired or not his rights weren't infringed on. Not until the government steps in and prohibits that language.
> 
> Just like this moron, he said what he did and there was a backlash. He may have been banned, he was torched, but nothing infringed on his right of speach because he is allowed to spew his garbage somewhere else.


Exactly.

Too many people confuse "Freedom of Speech" with "Freedom from Repurcussions due to Speech". You can say whatever you want, but expect there to be consequences.


----------



## The Prince

cbw2647 said:


> Well, I guess this has gone far enough,,,,,


Good riddance. This guy was run out on a rail at CF.


----------



## mels95yj

Only thing I will say add is what most people don't realize is their rights end where mine begin. Just my :2 

Mel


----------



## SeanGAR

NCatron said:


> Exactly.
> 
> Too many people confuse "Freedom of Speech" with "Freedom from Repurcussions due to Speech". You can say whatever you want, but expect there to be consequences.


You can then argue that there we have a freedom to murder people, just expect repercussions. I don't believe freedom of speech exists, here or anywhere except the wide open prairie where you can say any damned thing you please . ... as long as nobody hears ...... you've got your freedom.


----------



## DiSiLLuZioN

SeanGAR said:


> You can then argue that there we have a freedom to murder people, just expect repercussions. I don't believe freedom of speech exists, here or anywhere except the wide open prairie where you can say any damned thing you please . ... as long as nobody hears ...... you've got your freedom.


Exactly, but watch out if someone does hear you, because they most likely will be offended. Then they will gather in a circle and whine and cry about what it is that person said. Then they will forever banish that person to...well, you get the idea. 
Wait, we should sue him. YEAH, that's it, we'll sue him for all his [email protected]#$%
AND TAKE HIS HOUSE!

(ok, i don't know where i was going with any of that)

Just so sad is all I can say. Just so sad...


----------



## DrStrangelove

SeanGAR said:


> You can then argue that there we have a freedom to murder people, just expect repercussions. I don't believe freedom of speech exists, here or anywhere except the wide open prairie where you can say any damned thing you please . ... as long as nobody hears ...... you've got your freedom.


This guy does have the right to free speech, alas this is a private forum. The mods call the shots and this time the general will had something to say about it... eh' professor!

Rousseau strikes again!


----------



## Jeff

SeanGAR said:


> I don't believe freedom of speech exists, here or anywhere except the wide open prairie where you can say any damned thing you please . ... as long as nobody hears ...... you've got your freedom.


I've thought the same thing for a while now. I think this and most other countries give their people just enough liberties so that they think they are free. Much easier to control an ignorant populace when they think they have a immense amount of freedom.


----------



## SeanGAR

DrStrangelove said:


> This guy does have the right to free speech, alas this is a private forum. The mods call the shots and this time the general will had something to say about it... eh' professor!
> 
> Rousseau strikes again!


But you don't have "true" free speech even in public. You are always responsible for what you way, so "free speech" is a canard.


----------



## Nooner

SeanGAR said:


> But you don't have "true" free speech even in public. You are always responsible for what you way, so "free speech" is a canard.


To me, free speech/expression is kina like 'free will'... you can do it or say it, but mess up and there'll be hell to pay!!!


----------



## Da Klugs

DrStrangelove said:


> *This guy does have the right to free speech*, alas this is a private forum. Rousseau strikes again!


And he still does.

But now we don't have to listen to it.


----------



## colgate

SeanGAR said:


> But you don't have "true" free speech even in public. You are always responsible for what you way, so "free speech" is a canard.


The difference is, and it's an important difference, the suppression of free speech is not institutionalized, ie China blocking cell phone text messaging or using a tank to suppress the free expression of thought. In the USA there are tens of thousands of counselors at the ready to defend your right for a percentage of the settlement, if they think they can convince a jury or a judge that the freedom was abridged. Big difference.

If you can take the heat from an angry mob you are free to march down 5th avenue shouting Al Qaeda owns NYPD and FDNY. It's your call. You have been given the rope to hang yourself courtesy of the 1st Amendment.


----------



## ky toker

> You can then argue that there we have a freedom to murder people, just expect repercussions


I see what you're getting at but the murder thing would be a ridiculous arguement. People have the right to life.



> You are always responsible for what you way, so "free speech" is a canard


Yes you are. You have the right to say what you like be it the truth or not. Look at the media, KKK, and Al Sharpton. We don't have to discuss the whole "yelling fire in the theatre" do we?


----------



## LSU_Stogie

I think this is a valuable lesson for any new primate entering the jungle, I would like to see this set in the Hall of Fame (not the whole thread, just the cbw comment and forward) Then we can set a link to this thread and have them read it, this is a great example of what not to do, (or), what to do to get banned around here. 

It also shows how little you have to say to get the whole board riled up.


----------



## DrStrangelove

SeanGAR said:


> But you don't have "true" free speech even in public. You are always responsible for what you way, so "free speech" is a canard.


Actually Sean, there are quite a few Supreme Court decisions stating that the constitution does not protect "Fighting Words" or words that have a high likelyhood of inscenceing an individual. This is most notably seen in Chaplinsky vs. New Hampshire (1942).

Of course there are limits to free speech - you can't yell fire in a theatre, you can't advocate violence against the government, you can't to quote Justice Murphy use fighting words, "those which by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breech of the peace." I think certain limits on free speech are good, in a way they give us more liberty because we arn't constantly concerned with a coup, people inciting riots, or people trying to start trouble and directing terribly offensive comments towards individuals.

I think these limitations are pretty clear cut. So yes, we don't have 'true free speech' but we do proabably have the least limitations on speech than any other nation on the planet. I mean, c'mon, atleast people arn't getting tried for sedition because they're dissenting the war.


----------



## SeanGAR

ky toker said:


> You have the right to say what you like be it the truth or not. Look at the media, KKK, and Al Sharpton. We don't have to discuss the whole "yelling fire in the theatre" do we?


My point is that there may be repercussions from "free speech". I'm not talking about fighting words or yelling fire in a theater, I'm talking about sometimes doing your job. It isn't always LEGAL repercussion I'm talking about.

You bring up Sharpton because its abundandntly clear that he is a moron. Perhaps less of a moron than some, but still a moron. Now, he apparently doesn't care that he looks like a moron to most people because for the demographic segment that listens closely to him, what he says makes sense (to them).

You ARE responsible for what you say. There MAY be repercussions, legal or otherwise. We don't really have free speech, and I'm not just discussing PUBLIC speech.

So if there are possibly repercussions, there is no such thing as free speech.


----------



## croatan

How did the freedom of speech become an issue here?

*Congress shall make no law...*

It applies to the Federal Government and, thanks to the 14th Amendment, it also applies to the States. Period. Nowhere else. Someone telling you to shut up (unless that person is attempting to act under the color of the law) does not violate your right to free speech.


----------



## SeanGAR

croatan said:


> shut up


I think I will. :r


----------



## croatan

SeanGAR said:


> I think I will. :r


 Hey, quoting me out of context violates my right to free speech :c :r

And wasn't this thread about something cigar-related at some point?


----------



## DrStrangelove

SeanGAR said:


> We don't really have free speech, and I'm not just discussing PUBLIC speech.


 what are we talking about then?

I forget who said it but I always liked the quote, "With freedom comes responsibility." I agree with you that yes, we are responsible for what we say, but at the same time if we didn't have the freedom to say what we wanted, we wouldn't have to worry about the responsibility of censoring ourselves (different than being censored).

You'll notice this cbw said something that almost all of us found deeply offensive. And it wasn't the government or the mods that banned him, we all gave him negative RG that eventually led to him being banned. Is this so much different than an ass kicking in the park? Maybe not.

We never impeded cbw's right to free speech, hell he's proabably spouting some of the same crap right now, just to a different audience. We didn't censor cbw (although the mods could have) we simply turned him away. I'm a little confused as to what exactly you're arguing Sean, except that maybe people should use common sense sometimes (amen).

:2 :2 (sorry if I've been on a debate stint)

Ok, I'm going to school, you won't have to worry about me being contrary for atleast a couple of hours.


----------



## Jeff

croatan said:


> And wasn't this thread about something cigar-related at some point?


We've been threadjacked against our will. Someone call the ACLU...


----------



## DrStrangelove

croatan said:


> And wasn't this thread about something cigar-related at some point?


No. Look at the thread title, "Debate the first amendment HERE".


----------



## RcktS4

croatan said:


> And wasn't this thread about something cigar-related at some point?


I think posts 1, 7, and 86 might be construed as vaguely cigar-oriented by a friendly reading...


----------



## LSU_Stogie

> "With freedom comes responsibility."


I think it's "With great power comes great responsibility"

It's from Spiderman


----------



## Da Klugs

Everyone keeps circling the issue which is consequences. You are free to say whatever you want in "any society". The consequences however, may vary by society. Fortunately for us almost all consequences here in the US are societal in nature vs. governmental.

If you are looking to be free from consequences for "anything" you say take your dog and a good cigar for a long walk in the fantasy forest. Get it off your chest and come back and join the rest of us in the real world when you are ready. A good dog will still adore you even if you think that .......(insert unpopular fringe viewpoint here).


----------



## ky toker

croatan said:


> And wasn't this thread about something cigar-related at some point?


Where this thread was a few pages back, I think it has moved to an improvement.

So the gist of all this is; Say what you want, but it might get you punched in the nose. :r


----------



## rumballs

since posts are now all over the place in this thread, I'll add one more.

A second reason I'm not sad to see the banned loser go... Much much more minor and not really offensive, just another indicator that he was an arse.

Before the great crash of 2005, he started a contest. He asked people to design him an avatar. There were a few submissions, maybe 10 or so. A couple of times over the next few weeks, people asked "so, is this over? did you choose a winner?" and both times he said vaguely "not yet". As of the crash, I think the contest was 5 weeks old. After the crash, I eventually remembered his screen name. I sent a polite PM asking "so, are you going to re-open that contest? maybe you could provide some sort of deadline this time around?" he replied with something to the effect of "I wasn't impressed with any of the entries before. I may re-open it eventually."

Now, despite the fact that I thought my entries were the best, I didn't really care if I won or not. I just thought he should choose a winner and send the promised prize (which I think he described as "primo" or something like that). It pissed me off that he essentially asked people to do work by designing an avatar, then decided not to give anyone the prize.

Anyhoo, I wasn't going to bother bringing that up to anyone, but now that he's banned, why not...


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## Jeff

I think we all need a group hug.

​


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## kenstogie

Yea Luvin the hug.


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## LSU_Stogie

like I said before, I think this thread should be Hall of Famed...


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## SeanGAR

DrStrangelove said:


> I'm a little confused as to what exactly you're arguing Sean, except that maybe people should use common sense sometimes (amen).


That would boil things down nicely.


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## ky toker

Jeff said:


> I think we all need a group hug.
> 
> ​


Oh, you hit one of my most favorite sports. Womens volleyball. I play in a coed league on Sunday nights.


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## DrStrangelove

SeanGAR said:


> That would boil things down nicely.


DrStrangelove 1
SeanGAR 1


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## horrorview

So did I miss anything exciting in this thread?


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## pyrotech

Whoa, bit of a roller coaster there, I think this must be the most complete example of the concept of six degrees of seperation in a written sense,.

At this exact momment I'm free to write what ever I wish, no power I belive in could stop me, I choose not to be offensive, about some of the posters here, but I could if I so wished. 

As we have seen , many of those who support the freedom of speech, do not support it carte blanche, they accept that, that freedom needs to be constrained, that we need to excersice self discipline. One member exercised his freedom, and found that it has a cost. He has lost "potential" relationships ,friendships and maybe more. It is perhaps the fear of lossing these things that keeps most of us in check. 

I for one find great enjoyment in the battle of the sexs, there is much humour in the male/female interplay. I love and respect the female members of my family but I enjoy the odd derogatory banter. I mistakenly told my wife that my first freefall jumps was better than sex, I foolishly repeated the joke about marrying in white to match the kitchen appliances. I've paid several times over for both "mistakes" but not once has there been venom on either of our parts. Neither my wife or I belive in the equality of the sexes, we are controled on too many levels by distinctly different hormones, but I belive in EQUAL oppurtunity for both sexes. I do not belive in quota's for minorities the disabled or women in employment, a good manager employs the best person irrespective of colour, sex or physical ability. I do not object to "gay relationships" but the physical act between two men makes me feel ill,.

For these views people often call me a fossil, **** phobic, etc. I just wish sometimes people would read what I write , or listen to what I say rather than interpret. 



Great thread in the end, and thats my 2 penniesworth. sorry 2 cents.


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## AJ Pops

Wow, that thread went all over the place. I have to say that I'm surprised I made it all the way through since the middle bits were getting pretty unpleasant. 

That being said, it was a good lesson for those of us that are new. I'm not thinking I'll ever put my foot into my mouth nearly that badly. I don't think I harbor any ideas that distasteful, but I imagine I'll do it to some extent, some day, to someone. Hopefully my posts over time will show people that I don't intend to offend, even when it happens. I think the following quote, though long (sorry) explains how I feel about that.

"When right, I shall often be thought wrong by those whose positions will not command a view of the whole ground. I ask your indulgence for my own errors, which will never be intentional, and your support against the errors of others, who may condemn what they would not if seen in all its parts."
From Thomas Jefferson’s Inaugural Speech 1801

So while a given post may offend, it may just be because I'm not sufficiently skilled in language to put my whole meaning and intent into a few sentences. Clearly that's not the case with this individual, but it seems to happen often enough, even with those who are well respected.

To make a long story short, the take home for me is that we all should be very careful of what we put out there since we never know how others will react.

Oh, and that I need to get to know people on CS before I can expect to be trusted or respected....but isn't that life? Trust and respect are only offered and accepted when earned. It's hard enough for me to meet people, make friends and trust people in person, so I'm sure it'll take a longer time through these methods.

Sorry that was so long. Have a great day.


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