# CA to ban smoking in your own home?!



## dreamspeed

sorry if this is a repost, i scanned through the first page and didn't see this topic

not only are they banning smoking in the outside dining areas of restaurants (which really sucks considering LA is one of the few cities to have the weather for al fresco dining year round) they are also banning smoking in your own private patios?!

i don't live in laguna hills but i do live in LA...and this sets precedence for other nearby cities to adopt the same laws:banghead::banghead:

Residential patio smoking ban first in O.C. | smoking, patios, city - News - The Orange County Register
L.A. prepares to roll out smoking ban in outdoor dining areas - The Daily Breeze


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## TonyBrooklyn

The anti smoking Nazi's are at it all over. My daughter tried to make me a cigar ash tray in ceramics class in school. The teacher told her she couldn't it was not appropriate. Now if that don't beat all!ound:


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## Mante

> "We are not yet ready to regulate smoking within houses," said Mayor Pro Tem Cynthia Conners.


 If I lived in that city, this statement alone would scare the crap out of me and not just because of it's implications for tobacco use!


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## bent-1

Wow, looks like the cancer is coming to the other 49. Hopefully Puerto Rico has the sense not to join this 'union'. No way in hell I'd live in the state.


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## tpharkman

If you live in California you get what you pay for or should I say you trade freedom for good weather and overpriced sushi.

I feel for you but we all knew it was coming out there sooner or later. I can't wait until your new/old governor starts to ration how many squares of toilet paper you can use per wipe.

I can't say much though, we have similar or worse nazi-like laws here in Iowa and we get crappy weather and crappy sushi...lol!!


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## Cigary

There just isn't a term I can use to say how f'n ridiculous this is. My home/house is mine and if I want to smoke in it by God I'm going to smoke in it and nobody....city council, judge or deputy sheriff is going to tell me I can't smoke in my own home. At some point is anybody going to challenge this BS? I told the wife if this BS continues we're moving to someplace outside of a country that has adopted a policy much like they did in WWII...land of the what and home of the chickenshit should be put on bumperstickers. People lived and died for our freedoms and now they are literally being taken away at a alarming rate and people still...sit on their hands or just whine about it instead of challenging it with protests. This is insanity and I have a house in Calif. and you can rest assured I'll be smoking there.


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## bent-1

Wonder if affected homeowners (smokers) can sue for damages (full retail replacement of their home & all relocation costs), as well as pain & suffering brought on by the city council & American Lung Association?


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## CALIFORNIA KID

I dont live in OC but damn what a joke. The worst part is the tendencies in this state is that San francisco or Las Angeles pass some BS law then it comes to the capital and they try to push it on the rest of the state. No wonder this state has a $28 billion deficit (just to see that think if you got a check in the mail that said $28,000,000,000.00 on it). The politicians spend there time on $#1T like this.


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## gibson_es

total B.S. how are they getting away with this? seriously. in 20 years were will we be? trying to build on mars just so we can smoke? WTF!


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## Rock31

Ridiculous, but how would they even begin to enforce this? Rely on neighbors to rat you out? Satellite cameras spying on your backyard?


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## amsgpwarrior

F**ckin bullshit. I feel bad for ya'll Cali folk. That's a crying ass shame. Everyone should be able to do whatever they like within their own home. If the government keeps going on the way they are taking our freedoms, I wouldn't be surprised if people start lashing out at politicians and start showing (violently) that they mean business. This shit has to stop. When the politicians stop listening to the peoples cries, the cries turn into bullets unfortunately.


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## Cigary

bent-1 said:


> Wonder if affected homeowners (smokers) can sue for damages (full retail replacement of their home & all relocation costs), as well as pain & suffering brought on by the city council & American Lung Association?


Nope...this is city government at its most dangerous and the bad part is...is that once this gets going and they can make it stick you will see other municipalities follow suit. The citizens of that area need to stand up or they will get steamrolled and you'll see the effects of it in other cities.



Rock31 said:


> Ridiculous, but how would they even begin to enforce this? Rely on neighbors to rat you out? Satellite cameras spying on your backyard?


Absolutely, this is collateral damage to what will take place. You will have your next door neighbor call the authorities and what once use to be a nice peaceful arrangement will now be two neighbors having it in for each other. About the spy cameras...I have a neighbor who just put up a camera on the side of his house to catch me walking my dogs to see if they piss/shyte in his yard. We have dogs all over the neighborhood who crap and pee everywhere but this dipstick is wanting to make a statement because he knows that I think he's an asshole...so he puts up cameras that pretty much show my house where he can look into windows and stuff....( I've already taken care of that) but I digress. Remember during WWII where Germany had the Hitler youth basically reporting on their parents...you have people ratting each other out for BS things...and our Gov't wants us to think that we don't know the difference?


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## fiddlegrin

Cheeses!!!!!!!!!! I think I'm going to hurl! uke:

I don't live anywheres near O.C. but I was visiting my F.I.L. 1.5 years ago in O.C. and smoked on the back patio/back yard and played poker on Puff.
So this is difficult to .... grock

WOW!!!:crutch:

.


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## Sarge

breaking news! the nation has started producing an alarming rate of bunkers! war was immanent so the smokers are taking the fire underground! 

I mean really. pretty soon we'll be smoking underground & running tobacco like it's blow or bootleg liquor. WTF!? If people have a problem w/ smoke either keep walking or close your dam windows!! I've never claimed people to be smart but the lack of intelligence and preservation of our rights that's taking place today is outright disturbing. 

In other news my crackshack town wants to ban smoking in public places where kids are present. ie: parks, playgrounds, baseball fields. again, with the outside notion, does someone smoking nearby and you catching a whiff of it really that bad? does a law really need to be in place? come on. Half these peoples homes are more of asthma hazard than someone nearby, outdoors having a smoke...


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## TonyBrooklyn

Rock31 said:


> Ridiculous, but how would they even begin to enforce this? Rely on neighbors to rat you out? Satellite cameras spying on your backyard?


They will rely on people ratting each other out. Much like in WWII the Nazi's always relied on rats, to tell them who was hiding Jews. To allow this sort of behavior to progress forward. Is to invite Communism, Socialism, Fascism into our lives. Whether you smoke or not surely this has to bother you.ainkiller:


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## Mante

> Whether you smoke or not surely this has to bother you.


 It scares the crap out of me and that was my point! Geezus! Time to stand up people.


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## TonyBrooklyn

Tashaz said:


> It scares the crap out of me and that was my point! Geezus! Time to stand up people.


That's right listen to this man. He lives in a country where people will fully surrendered their firearms. He knows first hand what its like to be bullied by Government. Stand up for your rights keep America free!
:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## vtxcigar

dreamspeed said:


> ... they are also banning smoking in your own private patios?!
> 
> i don't live in laguna hills but i do live in LA...and this sets precedence for other nearby cities to adopt the same laws:banghead::banghead:
> 
> Residential patio smoking ban first in O.C. | smoking, patios, city - News - The Orange County Register


OK, so I read this article, and one thing I am wondering is what will they do about barbecues, will they be next? What if your toaster burns your toast and the smoke goes out the window and the neighbor smells it?

Nazi Germany, here we come!


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## Cigary

TonyBrooklyn said:


> They will rely on people ratting each other out. Much like in WWII the Nazi's always relied on rats, to tell them who was hiding Jews. To allow this sort of behavior to progress forward. Is to invite Communism, Socialism, Fascism into our lives. Whether you smoke or not surely this has to bother you.ainkiller:


Exactly...this is what people should fear whether you smoke cigars or not. Once the door is open to this kind of thing who is going to stop it? It's an all out affront to us keeping our rights on any level...if they can control what you do inside your own home...it's not a big step to having cameras inside your house after that. Privacy....we're losing a fundamental right to our privacy which is bigger than the right to bear arms, it's bigger than the right of free religion. This is something that should make people stand up and protest.


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## CALIFORNIA KID

Cigary said:


> I have a neighbor who just put up a camera on the side of his house to catch me walking my dogs to see if they piss/shyte in his yard. We have dogs all over the neighborhood who crap and pee everywhere but this dipstick is wanting to make a statement because he knows that I think he's an asshole...so he puts up cameras that pretty much show my house where he can look into windows and stuff.


2 words; pellet gun


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## bpegler

Just tell them its medical marijuana...


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## CALIFORNIA KID

bpegler said:


> Just tell them its medical marijuana...


no kidding. I have 4 dispensaries with in ten minutes of my house but you want to take my cigar away. P155 off.


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## CALIFORNIA KID

bpegler said:


> Just tell them its medical marijuana...


and congrats on the 1000th post.


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## smelvis

Cigary said:


> Exactly...this is what people should fear whether you smoke cigars or not. Once the door is open to this kind of thing who is going to stop it? It's an all out affront to us keeping our rights on any level...if they can control what you do inside your own home...it's not a big step to having cameras inside your house after that. Privacy....we're losing a fundamental right to our privacy which is bigger than the right to bear arms, it's bigger than the right of free religion. This is something that should make people stand up and protest.


Exactly little by little they are all disappearing, if they ever get the guns we are done!!


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## fcasas64

This is what happens when a corrupt local government runs amok! While I empathize with the soon to be oppressed cigarette & cigar smokers, remember you let these turds float to the top of the bowl, these so called elected officals need to be thrown out on their butts. ANGELENOS, you need to take your city back from those that would have you live under a nanny state!


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## thebayratt

CA to ban smoking in your own home?!


I bet thats going to go over like a fart in Church!


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## dragonhead08

crap, dublins just one city over from me


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## ejgarnut

amsgpwarrior said:


> If the government keeps going on the way they are taking our freedoms, I wouldn't be surprised if people start lashing out at politicians and start showing (violently) that they mean business......
> 
> When the politicians stop listening to the peoples cries, the cries turn into bullets unfortunately.


That is exactly what they are counting on. Once the general populace start perpetrating violent acts, marshal law will soon follow. Then all freedoms will truly be lost.

The best way for change to come about is to truly educate yourself and others on the principles this country was founded on, to show how incredibly corrupt/incompetent most politicians are, and to encourage people with honesty & integrity to run for public office.


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## thatguy

First cali, then onto Ma. Then its a shitshow from there...


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## InsidiousTact

smelvis said:


> Exactly little by little they are all disappearing, if they ever get the guns we are done!!


They will never get the guns, at least not all of them! If they even think about going after guns, there will be so many underground movements that no politician will sleep soundly.

Also, living in CA, I'm a bit worried... If this becomes common, the next step would be having a designated smoking room in each city... Then complete banishment. Why there isn't a major movement spearheading this cause is beyond me.


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## smelvis

InsidiousTact said:


> They will never get the guns, at least not all of them! If they even think about going after guns, there will be so many underground movements that no politician will sleep soundly.
> 
> Also, living in CA, I'm a bit worried... If this becomes common, the next step would be having a designated smoking room in each city... Then complete banishment. Why there isn't a major movement spearheading this cause is beyond me.


Everyone is afraid of being first!! It is a real fear to have, black helicopters or not :hmm:


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## BOTLwife

I'd like to see them enforce this. And the really funny part is, I think we have one of the highest tobacco taxes around (unresearched, just my thought). I wonder what the budget plan is when people are no longer allowed to smoke anywhere, so they aren't buying tobacco...so they aren't getting those dollars.

But yeah, I would love to see law enforcement come into my yard and tell me what I can do in my home, which I own.


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## CALIFORNIA KID

BOTLwife said:


> I'd like to see them enforce this. And the really funny part is, I think we have one of the highest tobacco taxes around (unresearched, just my thought). I wonder what the budget plan is when people are no longer allowed to smoke anywhere, so they aren't buying tobacco...so they aren't getting those dollars.
> 
> But yeah, I would love to see law enforcement come into my yard and tell me what I can do in my home, which I own.


http://www.tobaccofreekids.org/research/factsheets/pdf/0169.pdf

here is a list of taxes compared state to state.


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## miket156

The right to do whatever the hell you want in your own home goes back to the Magna Carta when Noble Lords in England forced King John to sign a document limiting his powers. The right to do what you please in your own home was referred to in English Common law in the 16th and 17th centuries too. The government does not have the right to stop you or anyone in your home from smoking. If they tried that crap where I live, I would sit outside in my yard and smoke away, just as I do now. If a cop come along and told me I couldn’t, I would tell him to mind his own business and stay the hell off my property. :fencing:

What I would do is get together with fellow tobacco users and attend a local town counsil or city council meeting. Do not allow your local or city council to pass such a resolution. If they do it over your objections, organize and VOTE THEM OUT OF OFFICE. “Big Brother” wants to put their two cents into every part of our lives. What I do in my own house is my own business. If we lay down like sheep then the idiots that want to take away our rights will do just that. They won’t if we don’t let them. 





Mike T.


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## DSturg369

Said it before and every time I see another intervention by "big brother" it simply reaffirms my belief in the fact that this country is heading to a BIG wake-up soon. The big question is... Which side of our government is going to make the final stand first? ... The Oppressor or the Oppressed?


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## GeoffbCET

Ohhh come on! This has to be a joke! How are they even going to regulate this? As with anything related to smoking, they always bring up the point of it causing cancer. My grandma JUST got diagnosed with cancer, after smoking 1 pack+ a day for 60 years. This has probably got to be the biggest waste of money if they are going to enforce it.

If it does get implemented, I truly feel sorry for anyone living in CA


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## miket156

It has to be stopped before they pass a law. If one state passes it, it has to be challenged by the American Civil Liberties Union and taken to the Supreme Court. I believe such a law is unconstitutional. The "state" telling me that I can't smoke on my own property (E.G. outside my house) would be met with me flipping off the authorities and lighting up a stogie.

Enough is enough of their Facist BS.

Mike T.


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## denarok

Anyone remember the movie V for Vendetta, US is starting to sound a lot more and more like what is happening..

Soon they will start banning what we can, eat, read and watch in our own house


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## ProgressNotes

Sarge said:


> In other news my crackshack town wants to ban smoking in public places where kids are present. ie: parks, playgrounds, baseball fields. again, with the outside notion, does someone smoking nearby and you catching a whiff of it really that bad? does a law really need to be in place? come on. Half these peoples homes are more of asthma hazard than someone nearby, outdoors having a smoke...


Yeah, the county I live in trying to do the same, but they included "anywhere near apartment buildings". If this passes, I really have no idea where I'd smoke. Or what, for that matter, since apparently mail ordering cigars is going to be illegal soon here, too.


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## Wineador

:amen:


BOTLwife said:


> I'd like to see them enforce this. And the really funny part is, I think we have one of the highest tobacco taxes around (unresearched, just my thought). I wonder what the budget plan is when people are no longer allowed to smoke anywhere, so they aren't buying tobacco...so they aren't getting those dollars.
> 
> But yeah, I would love to see law enforcement come into my yard and tell me what I can do in my home, which I own.


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## TonyBrooklyn

denarok said:


> Anyone remember the movie V for Vendetta, US is starting to sound a lot more and more like what is happening..
> 
> Soon they will start banning what we can, eat, read and watch in our own house


They are already banning what you eat trans fats ban in N.Y.C salt now must be reduced from all foods in N.Y.C .The feds are putting the squeeze to lower sodium in all processed foods. As for what you watch/ read censorship has been around since Moses wore short pants.


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## TonyBrooklyn

BOTLwife said:


> I'd like to see them enforce this. And the really funny part is, I think we have one of the highest tobacco taxes around (unresearched, just my thought). I wonder what the budget plan is when people are no longer allowed to smoke anywhere, so they aren't buying tobacco...so they aren't getting those dollars.
> 
> But yeah, I would love to see law enforcement come into my yard and tell me what I can do in my home, which I own.


Californians legislated there rights away long ago. In exchange for living in a state with beautiful weather lots of sunshine beautiful beaches. Well Southern California anyways i love Southern California. But as long as the liberal minded agenda makes the rules!:brick:


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## tec_wiz

TonyBrooklyn said:


> They are already banning what you eat trans fats ban in N.Y.C salt now must be reduced from all foods in N.Y.C .The feds are putting the squeeze to lower sodium in all processed foods. As for what you watch/ read censorship has been around since Moses wore short pants.


Wasn't it the OC that banned toys in Happy Meals? I thought I remembered seeing that somewhere.

Anyways, I don't know how they could ever enforce this. Besides, who are you hurting by smoking on your own property. In what way can they justify this gross misrepresentation of public safety. If you don't want to be near me while I smoke, then get off my property.


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## miket156

I have high blood pressure and have to keep away from salt. To bad salt is in everything that comes in a bottle, a can, and processed foods. I'm not in favor of the government regulating the salt content in processed foods, but the food processing companies load up their foods with salt to extend the shelf life. The health of the people eating what they make be damned. Salt content could easily be cut by 50% without affecting flavor. In some cases it will improve the food because salty food dries out and it ruins the taste.

Food processing companies also use a lot of corn based fillers in their foods and that makes us fat. 

When these companies continue doing what they're doing, it gives the government an excuse to step in and regulated them.


Mike T.


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## amsgpwarrior

I have an organic garden in my back yard so I don't have to rely on the government to regulate my food. I know exactly what is in it. Quit supporting the grocery stores that peddle bullshit along with fast food restaurants that could care less about your health and go local and organic!


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## miket156

amsgpwarrior said:


> I have an organic garden in my back yard so I don't have to rely on the government to regulate my food. I know exactly what is in it. Quit supporting the grocery stores that peddle bullshit along with fast food restaurants that could care less about your health and go local and organic!


Texas has a longer growing season than we have in PA so have fun with your garden. When I was growing up my grand parents, my parents, our neighbors all raised our own vegetables and some of us had fruit too. At my age and where I live now, that is out of the question. I physically can't do it, and the soil here is clay and rocks, so no garden. There are no small local grocery stores anymore, there are supermarkets run by corporations. Organic foods you find in supermarkets are not what they're cracked up to be, except they charge more for it. Fast food restaurants? You are making way to many assumptions my friend.

Mike T.


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## DSturg369

Simple rule of thumb...

If you eat the peel, go organic.
If you peel it and toss the peel, non-organic is okay.


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## amsgpwarrior

miket156 said:


> Texas has a longer growing season than we have in PA so have fun with your garden. When I was growing up my grand parents, my parents, our neighbors all raised our own vegetables and some of us had fruit too. At my age and where I live now, that is out of the question. I physically can't do it, and the soil here is clay and rocks, so no garden. There are no small local grocery stores anymore, there are supermarkets run by corporations. Organic foods you find in supermarkets are not what they're cracked up to be, except they charge more for it. Fast food restaurants? You are making way to many assumptions my friend.
> 
> Mike T.


I eat out a lot in Austin. I consider it one of the most progressive food cities in the nation along with San Fran, Portland (Oregon), and Chicago. Food here has dynamically changed. In Austin, it is normal now to expect your food is sustainably raised, mostly organic, and even mostly local. Fast food is everywhere now that we have this infectious trend of food trailers all over the city. This is because Austin has figured out that fast food can be, and should be healthy and delicious for you. Some of these trailers are even getting nods for some of the best restaurants in the city. It is not expensive eventhough the ingredients are either local or organic and created by reknowned chefs. Look hard enough and most places have local farms that they can go to for produce. PA is pretty famous for them. Eventhough you mention we have long growing seasons, it is extremely difficult to grow anything here. The soil is poor, the winds are ferocious, the heat stifling, and if that wasn't enough the droughts will take care of what is left. But that is what I love about my fellow Texans; we have made the impossible possible and worked something out of complete nothing.

To make our gardens I created raised beds (1 ft deep) and trucked in garden mix (using a rented Uhaul truck) bought from a local organic soil provider. It was all super hard work and time consuming, but now I control the production of a lot of my vegetables and that is the best part. I also had installed a 250 gallon compost bin. If you ain't got the right soil then you got to make it!

Organic doesn't mean it is better tasting. It just means it is better for you and the environment. Many don't know what lengths that companies and farmers go through to get this classification, but it is very lengthy and strenuous. My family raises organic angus beef cattle and it was a complete pain in the ass to get our farm certified and the cattle certified.


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## Delsana

I truly hate bringing this up, but no matter what you think or say about the government, there is no way you'll overcome the popular opinion about smoking and cancer and inflicting damage on others against their will because you are the MINORITY and popular opinion and its legislation is the MAJORITY.

Now, outside of the more "the government can go to hell" responses, I agree with you that you should be able to smoke if you like, as long as both sides are not inflicting on each other and show courtesy, but the issue is that the concept of "smoking" won't be something the majority will rally behind to overthrow, because it is seen largely as a negative addiction and instrument of "big tobacco" to inflict pain on others and family for their fat pockets. The prohibition affected a huge majority that involved drinking, but while this couldn't of been passed or spread as a nation law in the last 20 or so years... popular opinion has changed, and they seem to be more active in removing the issue.

Not to cause issues, but cigarettes are a highly rated killer, nicotine is extremely difficult to get off of, and it does and has caused cancer. The ad's against smoking that the industry secretly uses to advertise smoking aside... it's an issue, and no matter how many people I talk to about it... the consensus is the same... tobacco is word for word linked with cigarettes, cigars and variants be damned... and if sacrifices need to beade for a minority to enjoy something they believe is their right, well they can be darned too.

The removal of smoking in restaurants was a key step, and enforcing breaches is serious... they will regulate this in the California law-trial state... and if it works it will fast be spread.

I'm not sure you can fight that without the numbers.


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## Fuzzface

But the green stuff that's already illegal is fine?

This is America, if I want to eat 3 Big Macs and clog my arteries, thats my buisness. If I own a restaurant smoking doesn't bother me, it should be up to be to decide if smokers can smoke in there. If I want to puff on a nice stogie after a hard days work, why can't I? After all, I thought this was AMERICA.
But give the country away to the illegals you assholes, thats fine too.

Its a kick in the face to our founding fathers, and the soldiers who've fought for us.


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## Mante

Haha, smokers may be a minority here as well but we supply 15% of the health budget & also add about 16% of the governments general revenue. We have a voice that is suppressed in action only but the government would go broke without the tobacco tax here since it has only a very minor surplus that was created by fiddling figures. 

Import your cigars & cigarettes Aussies, watch them throw money at customs to stop the bleeding of funds. This has happened before in the late eighties when the government realised how much they would suffer from the loss of our tobacco tax, hence the baning of the QLD tax free sales. Damn, I actually have an argument to present, sorry. LOL.






250


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## Delsana

Like I said, I don't agree with them removing your rights per say, but as I'm not emotional about it I can see what will happen and I hate to say it but...

While it may be the infringement of rights, that doesn't mean it won't go through, as suicide is also illegal and they'll thus enforce this and because it protects others it will be accepted, either immediately by most, or overtime by the rest.

To cry out against right loss and that the country is wrong will only work so much... America remains a developed nation... how you interpret that is up to you but insulting the country of etc, won't accomplish anything.

As I said, numbers aside... without a majority I regret to inform you that the game and stakes may very well have changed.

---

But I'm not trying to argue... I just see more emotion than law at the moment.


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## Mante

Delsana said:


> Like I said, I don't agree with them removing your rights per say, but as I'm not emotional about it I can see what will happen and I hate to say it but...
> 
> While it may be the infringement of rights, that doesn't mean it won't go through, as suicide is also illegal and they'll thus enforce this and because it protects others it will be accepted, either immediately by most, or overtime by the rest.
> 
> To cry out against right loss and that the country is wrong will only work so much... America remains a developed nation... how you interpret that is up to you but insulting the country of etc, won't accomplish anything.
> 
> As I said, numbers aside... without a majority I regret to inform you that the game and stakes may very well have changed.
> 
> ---
> 
> But I'm not trying to argue... I just see more emotion than law at the moment.


I was actually agreeing with you but trying to put forward a different opinion. In America what you state may be true, not so in many other countries. There is a lot of lip service paid around the world to the "anti smoking" lobbies but in many countries outside the US, taxes are what prop up this crusade & that will reach a point of no return, as it has here in Australia. Young people here are actually increasing their take up of cigarette smoking now because it is seen as anti establishment.


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## Delsana

Tashaz said:


> I was actually agreeing with you but trying to put forward a different opinion. In America what you state may be true, not so in many other countries. There is a lot of lip service paid around the world to the "anti smoking" lobbies but in many countries outside the US, taxes are what prop up this crusade & that will reach a point of no return, as it has here in Australia. Young people here are actually increasing their take up of cigarette smoking now because it is seen as anti establishment.


Which may only further encourage those trying to outright ban it... as we can't really deny the impact cigarette smoking has... and unfortunately the more "Rebellion" that occurs, the more other products of the sort will suffer.


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## amsgpwarrior

Delsana said:


> Like I said, I don't agree with them removing your rights per say, but as I'm not emotional about it I can see what will happen and I hate to say it but...
> 
> While it may be the infringement of rights, that doesn't mean it won't go through, as suicide is also illegal and they'll thus enforce this and because it protects others it will be accepted, either immediately by most, or overtime by the rest.
> 
> To cry out against right loss and that the country is wrong will only work so much... America remains a developed nation... how you interpret that is up to you but insulting the country of etc, won't accomplish anything.
> 
> As I said, numbers aside... without a majority I regret to inform you that the game and stakes may very well have changed.
> 
> ---
> 
> But I'm not trying to argue... I just see more emotion than law at the moment.


Majorities aren't needed. Money is needed. That is the only thing a politician basically responds to. There are plenty of minority groups that get way more pull in the government than there population justifies. Special interest groups are rampant and create a lot of havoc in Washington with their lobbying. If cigar smokers had the money to throw at the problem then we would get more pull, but until then we are stuck with our thumbs up our asses.


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## Smokin Easy

Delsanna I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. It's not going to come down to a numbers game, but a civil rights game. How can a city take away your rights on your own property? When it comes down to it there will be enough Americans who realize what this law means and will not let it stand. They will realize that this could be the law that begins the methodical stripping of their freedoms. 

In addition it only takes one person to bring this before the courts for it to be struck down. Look at the guy in D.C. who challenged the long standing law that it was illegal to own a gun within the city limits. His fight took him before the supreme court who ruledi n his favor. It is only going to take one smoker with the resources to challenge this law and have it struck down. Becuase I agree with all everyone here, my property I'll do what I durned well please. So even if this makes it through, it could take only one individual to put these ninkumpoops in their place.


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## Delsana

Smokin Easy said:


> Delsanna I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. It's not going to come down to a numbers game, but a civil rights game. How can a city take away your rights on your own property? When it comes down to it there will be enough Americans who realize what this law means and will not let it stand. They will realize that this could be the law that begins the methodical stripping of their freedoms.
> 
> In addition it only takes one person to bring this before the courts for it to be struck down. Look at the guy in D.C. who challenged the long standing law that it was illegal to own a gun within the city limits. His fight took him before the supreme court who ruledi n his favor. It is only going to take one smoker with the resources to challenge this law and have it struck down. Becuase I agree with all everyone here, my property I'll do what I durned well please. So even if this makes it through, it could take only one individual to put these ninkumpoops in their place.


The problem is that it's not so simple.

It's a matter of life or death, in some forms, as smoking is dangerous, AND THAT is the reason, because while guns don't kill, the bullets do, the cigarette is what kills, not the tobacco... and there's no way to just outlaw all tobacco because it's used in other products, and the specific managing of that would be too tedious and costly... so you outlaw smoking... and yes it will hurt the Tobacco companies, but I think they expect for them to take up a new practice pretty quickly, and honestly it's not entirely illogical to assume that they might do that, not saying they would, but they obviously wouldn't want to just go out of business.

Point being that it's a matter of DYING versus the ability TO HURT someone with something, wherein you can't NOT HURT someone with this object.

Now as for cigars that's a different situation provided you don't inhale, but gum cancer is still involved, sure you can argue and contest it with the fact that it has stress relief but so do other drugs... it's not a good enough thing and there are other options to replace it with, so that won't be the way to survive it...

Then you've got pipe tobacco which most people don't even know still exists because only grandfather's and what not seem to do that (to the average person) and that's just something old people do to be reminiscent of the "Old times".

You've got chewing tobacco and I'm not even going to go into how damaging that is to the gums (more so than anything else because of what it does with the direct tar build up) and so that is a danger too... and then of course you've got the new hookah (which is a variant of tobacco) and the other stuff, and that's more college style to most people or middle eastern but that's still dangerous, even if no one has heard of anyone dying from it yet.

Point is you've got these things, and then you've got the law that outlaws them because people want to be safe (come on did any of you seriously 30 - 40 years ago think they'd ever outlaw smoking in restaurants? Well, they did, and I'll bet the rights advocacy movement was out raged with that too, but it accomplished nothing but more bans) and then you've got the people actually affected by cancer (whether it be younger or older) and the people who can't STOP smoking and WISH they could, and thus the government says well they aren't capable enough to do it on their own and so thus WE WILL DO IT FOR THEM, and they'll be put on mandatory medications, and you can already get the nicorette gum (sponsored by tobacco agencies secretly keep in mind) that is cheaper so you can stop smoking (and continue chewing expensive gum for a very long period) and then you've got the nicotine itself which is just... so addictive.

There's so many qualities and factors in this... people want it to be dealt with, and the horribly inane and ridiculous commercials for smoke-free cigarettes and electronic cigarettes and cigars are NOT going to do it for most people because it REMINDS them of smoking, and the addiction is still there, granted it WILL be one of the steps that I can see happening as it's already beginning to SLOWLY and I mean slowly, override and replace those people trying to quit other ways (which btw those are also sponsored by tobacco companies).

All these run on's and what not aside, the issue isn't just money, and it isn't just other things either... this is a legitimate concern of health that is simply constantly hand waved because the THREAT of cigarette smoking is proven and exists, and so it is to be dealt with and that's why that's happening.

As a side note before I end this, understand that some states have laws right now that prevent someone from drinking (any liquid), eating (any food), or doing anything that doesn't keep BOTH HANDS on the wheel, or at least all attention on driving (including talking on cell phones), and while this law is in the trial phase in the normal trial areas (some in California, some in Michigan richer areas), it is slowly spreading and guess what... doesn't ALLOW smoking in the car EVER, for threat of fine (points off license is the new penalty actually) and of course imprisonment (yes).

Now the point of all this is to show you how it CAN happen, and it WILL happen... the only issue is how you go out, but even if you go out screaming... there are many many many more sympathetic and empathetic people to the cancer plight than there are to the people who will support smoking, ESPECIALLY if they have to support the ability to choose to smoke, simply because they want to support the right of freedom of choice.

As remember, SUICIDE isn't legal, and NO ONE (despite it having a following of people upset about it) is going to repeal that.

It should also be noted that you lock yourselves in your cigar chambers and coves, alcoves, retreats, private golf courses (many golf courses are banning cigars, but it's not massively banned just yet, but give it a few years), and of course the cigar lounges, bars, and shops... and that's fine (I really enjoy a nice cigar at some of those places, though I have no idea how to golf and I don't know how to multitask with a cigar while doing that either, heh), but the issue is that a single person walks by, and SMELLS something and BOOM you broke the law because that's second hand smoke (the scent is carried upon it) and it breached the premises and they spend more to keep it in or they get closed down (that's happened minorly but I expect it more) and it all repeats, and the isolation gets more intense.

---

I understand there's not much organization there... it's more a rant, versus my really upset state at something serious, but it is true, and it is the way things are seen in the law courts right now.

Remember, if everyone started smoking again, obviously they wouldn't ban it, because the majority would want it, but the majority doesn't smoke anymore... and many want to quit and can't, and THAT is the point the legislators want to get across... "it's not the cool thing" anymore... and people want to move on to the next.

... Again, sorry for the organization.


----------



## TonyBrooklyn

miket156 said:


> I have high blood pressure and have to keep away from salt. To bad salt is in everything that comes in a bottle, a can, and processed foods. I'm not in favor of the government regulating the salt content in processed foods, but the food processing companies load up their foods with salt to extend the shelf life. The health of the people eating what they make be damned. Salt content could easily be cut by 50% without affecting flavor. In some cases it will improve the food because salty food dries out and it ruins the taste.
> 
> Food processing companies also use a lot of corn based fillers in their foods and that makes us fat.
> 
> When these companies continue doing what they're doing, it gives the government an excuse to step in and regulated them.
> 
> Mike T.


Government has no right to regulate people into health. That is a personal choice to be made by individuals. Once government places there beliefs into laws. That systematically deprive people of their GOD given rights. That my friend is called COMMUNISM! :mmph:


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## Tritones

miket156 said:


> Food processing companies also use a lot of corn based fillers in their foods and that makes us fat.
> 
> When these companies continue doing what they're doing, it gives the government an excuse to step in and regulated them.
> 
> Mike T.


Sadly, the entire US government food system is built upon a program to use as much corn as possible to keep the farm economy working. No way will they regulate the use of corn unless it's to make it mandatory.


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## BigBenny

I would truly be surprised if there was a movement that supported our rights to smoke tobacco. It reminds me of a quote from Martin Niemoller about Nazi Germany:

First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

And it also reminds me of the stages of civilization:
1. From bondage to spiritual faith;

2. From spiritual faith to great courage;

3. From courage to liberty;

4. From liberty to abundance;

5. From abundance to complacency;

6. From complacency to apathy; <---|
--- We are between here
7. From apathy to dependence; <---|

8. From dependence back into bondage"


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## Smokin Easy

Blake, 
Great posts. I agree 100% that we are somewhere in between. It won't be long before our country is no longer a democracy but a socialist haven. We are well on our way there with Obamacare and many other Gov't programs. I think it's about time that we as Americans remember where we came from and what it was that got us started. Letting a few political tyrants run our lives and steal our freedoms led to our independence. If they keep it up it might lead to a sessionist movement. The people will only bend so much before they break.


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## TonyBrooklyn

Gonna quote Thomas Jefferson again.

"Resistance to tyranny is obedience to GOD" -Thomas Jefferson

Stop and think about that for a moment. People have been trying to control people since the beginning of time. Its not about what political party is running the country at any given time. Its more about the fact that America once the freest country in the world. :2ainkiller::deadhorse:


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## Mante

Freedom is defined by each person as they see it.

We here in Oz are at #5 Blake and watching the rest of the world.

I will quote Al (Bullman) here & repeat it to myself, "I do not have to reply to every post" * Seals lips*.


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## 1Linnie

...I gotta stop reading this thread.. it is PI$$in my off!!! 

so hard to sit back and watch such political correctness take away my freedoms. If my smoke offends you go the Hell some where else...

I live in TN and no smoking in public buildings... which means the only place to smoke is in a bar that does not allow under 21. I live in a city of around 60K people and there are only a handful of places I can smoke inside.. and the majority of them suck.

On the bright side warm weather is around the corner and at least we can still smoke outside on a deck.


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## 1Linnie

TonyBrooklyn said:


> Gonna quote Thomas Jefferson again.
> 
> "Resistance to tyranny is obedience to GOD" -Thomas Jefferson
> 
> Stop and think about that for a moment. People have been trying to control people since the beginning of time. Its not about what political party is running the country at any given time. Its more about the fact that America once the freest country in the world. :2ainkiller::deadhorse:


AMEN Bro!!!!


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## Cantiloper

If you want to fight the bans and the mentality behind them, I strongly believe that your best weapon lies in exposing the lies that support them. 

I've only got two posts (somehow I misplaced this entire forum after first visiting it in 2005... sorry!) so I can't place a link here, but if you google V.Gen5H you'll be able to read "The Lies Behind The Smoking Bans" (aka "The Health Arguments" or "The New Stiletto") there. The new version is just 22 pages, large, easy-to-read print in sort of a "Tom Paine" pamphlet style, and ideal for printing, binding, and leaving at your favorite bar or cigar lounge for others to read as well. It's openly one-sided, but its facts are accurate and their presentation is honest. It's designed to get people angry, both smokers and nonsmokers whose lives have been negatively affected by the antismoking frenzy. That anger will, hopefully, translate into action to bring about change.

It ends with a gloating quote of five years ago from John Banzhaf, the founder of ASH, where he brags that "No longer can they say 'A man's home is his castle.' Here we are, reaching into the final frontier."

They CAN be stopped... but it's not going to be easy.


----------



## Cigary

Cantiloper said:


> If you want to fight the bans and the mentality behind them, I strongly believe that your best weapon lies in exposing the lies that support them.
> 
> I've only got two posts (somehow I misplaced this entire forum after first visiting it in 2005... sorry!) so I can't place a link here, but if you google V.Gen5H you'll be able to read "The Lies Behind The Smoking Bans" (aka "The Health Arguments" or "The New Stiletto") there. The new version is just 22 pages, large, easy-to-read print in sort of a "Tom Paine" pamphlet style, and ideal for printing, binding, and leaving at your favorite bar or cigar lounge for others to read as well. It's openly one-sided, but its facts are accurate and their presentation is honest. It's designed to get people angry, both smokers and nonsmokers whose lives have been negatively affected by the antismoking frenzy. That anger will, hopefully, translate into action to bring about change.
> 
> It ends with a gloating quote of five years ago from John Banzhaf, the founder of ASH, where he brags that "No longer can they say 'A man's home is his castle.' Here we are, reaching into the final frontier."
> 
> They CAN be stopped... but it's not going to be easy.


Just being informed about what is going on doesn't necessarily translate to fighting this. It will take boots on the ground pure and simple. It will take what lobbyists do today...the Anti Smoking Lobby is huge and has a ton of support and they get things done quickly. The smoking lobby however is a few lobbyists that coordinate meetings and literature and then hardly ever organize anything in protest. We can vote those people in Congress who are idiots but we can't even get people to vote out those who are corrupt and stay in office for 2 and 3 terms. We ARE going to lose our precious liberties because the masses are too lazy to do the right thing...they are fat and lazy and don't want to get off their asses to do what is right so this is why we are losing liberties faster than anyone has ever seen. It's very sad to watch this all play out...the apathy and attitudes of people who let others go into battle and fight for their freedoms while they sit back and let them do that without supporting their rights to get decent health care, pay, etc.

I will continue to assert my rights because of my age...I'm brave/stupid enough not to give a shit anymore about the consequences of my actions to fight for my rights. Do I really need to worry about what they will do to me? Federal minimum security prison with Cable TV, 3 meals a day, free health care. a place to smoke my cigars, ping pong, pool, library, jacuzzi and interesting people, etc. Yeah, lock me up!


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## Cantiloper

Delsana, you wrote, "Now as for cigars that's a different situation provided you don't inhale..."

Ahh, but what about the evil, deadlier-than-nuclear-waste secondhand smoke Delsana? After all, who could possibly be more exposed to such a thing than a cigar smoker? There actually are some Antismokers out there nowadays trying to claim that a significant portion of cigarette-smoking-related deaths come from the smokers' own inhalation of their own secondhand smoke sadly enough so I guess it's not that big of a laugh anymore.

Someone here mentioned the illegal green stuff. Does anyone remember the joke from the 60s/early-70s from the hippies that went along the lines of "When *we* get in power we'll outlaw cigarettes and martinis while legalizing pot and acid." I remember it as a featured and well-known quote, but have never found anyone else familiar with it.


----------



## Cantiloper

Cigary said:


> Just being informed about what is going on doesn't necessarily translate to fighting this. It will take boots on the ground pure and simple. It will take what lobbyists do today...the Anti Smoking Lobby is huge and has a ton of support and they get things done quickly. The smoking lobby however is a few lobbyists that coordinate meetings and literature and then hardly ever organize anything in protest.


Cigary, I partly agree and partly not. Being informed isn't enough, but if the information makes people angry (and people DO get angry about being lied to, particularly when those lies have disrupted their lives) then it can help get them active. The "smoking lobby" isn't really a lobby at all: just a loose connection of activists and small groups with a few "umbrella" organizations like FORCES, TICAP, and The Smokers Club.

The big problem on our end is money: there's simply no way we can compete with 800 million dollars a year being spent on "Tobacco Control" in the normal scheme of things. If we had even a thousandth of what the opposition has financially we could wipe them out... but we don't have that. So, what do we do? My answer has been to try to spread out ideas in writing, through things like my book, through things like the Stiletto booklet, and through internet postings on news boards whenever smoking related news stories offer comment boards.

The internet is free, and while the Antismokers are trying to wrestle control of it through "save the children" censorship limitations that would put boards like this one off limits unless one had a license for viewing *****graphic .xxx domains or somesuch, for the moment it IS still free both politically and financially and it's an arena where we can fight and win. Actual informative debate with references and fact-checking easily at hand is a battlefield where they can't win and the internet provides that sort of forum better than any other medium.

Your point about boots on the ground is solid, but it's rare that we have enough dedicated people in any particular geographic area to pull that sort of thing off effectively. We won a big one in Holland last year thanks to the enormous dedication of one activist and a group of supportive cafe-owners, and we win small battles here and there all the time, but to build larger active networks of boots on the ground is hard.

Maybe see you in New York for the Central Park smoke-in in May? :> Don't count on cigars in your cell though: they've been banning prison smoking right and left.


----------



## Cigary

Cantiloper said:


> Cigary, I partly agree and partly not. Being informed isn't enough, but if the information makes people angry (and people DO get angry about being lied to, particularly when those lies have disrupted their lives) then it can help get them active. The "smoking lobby" isn't really a lobby at all: just a loose connection of activists and small groups with a few "umbrella" organizations like FORCES, TICAP, and The Smokers Club.
> 
> The big problem on our end is money: there's simply no way we can compete with 800 million dollars a year being spent on "Tobacco Control" in the normal scheme of things. If we had even a thousandth of what the opposition has financially we could wipe them out... but we don't have that. So, what do we do? My answer has been to try to spread out ideas in writing, through things like my book, through things like the Stiletto booklet, and through internet postings on news boards whenever smoking related news stories offer comment boards.
> 
> The internet is free, and while the Antismokers are trying to wrestle control of it through "save the children" censorship limitations that would put boards like this one off limits unless one had a license for viewing *****graphic .xxx domains or somesuch, for the moment it IS still free both politically and financially and it's an arena where we can fight and win. Actual informative debate with references and fact-checking easily at hand is a battlefield where they can't win and the internet provides that sort of forum better than any other medium.
> 
> Your point about boots on the ground is solid, but it's rare that we have enough dedicated people in any particular geographic area to pull that sort of thing off effectively. We won a big one in Holland last year thanks to the enormous dedication of one activist and a group of supportive cafe-owners, and we win small battles here and there all the time, but to build larger active networks of boots on the ground is hard.
> 
> Maybe see you in New York for the Central Park smoke-in in May? :> Don't count on cigars in your cell though: they've been banning prison smoking right and left.


We tend to agree more than we are aware...my thoughts are there are not near enough people to support our "cigar war" and even if there was enough money to fight...the amount of people to support this is not even close. As I've said before we can't even get people to vote out corrupt legislators as they serve 3 and 4 terms. We've been fleeced monetarily by the Gov't supporting a corrupt Wall Street..anybody go to jail? Anybody get sanctioned or fined? Just us poor citizens who lose ground on a daily basis. It used to be we could count on the Big Tobacco Companies to support us but now they have gone underground because Big Gov't basically spanked them and they don't whine much anymore. I'd love to go to NY for a 'smoke in' but as you said you can't even smoke there.

I paid for two homes and I will smoke in either of them as I choose right up until they arrest me. At that point I'll move from this country to another country and finish my life there...smoking my cigar on my balcony.:director:


----------



## TonyBrooklyn

Cigary said:


> Just being informed about what is going on doesn't necessarily translate to fighting this. It will take boots on the ground pure and simple. It will take what lobbyists do today...the Anti Smoking Lobby is huge and has a ton of support and they get things done quickly. The smoking lobby however is a few lobbyists that coordinate meetings and literature and then hardly ever organize anything in protest. We can vote those people in Congress who are idiots but we can't even get people to vote out those who are corrupt and stay in office for 2 and 3 terms. We ARE going to lose our precious liberties because the masses are too lazy to do the right thing...they are fat and lazy and don't want to get off their asses to do what is right so this is why we are losing liberties faster than anyone has ever seen. It's very sad to watch this all play out...the apathy and attitudes of people who let others go into battle and fight for their freedoms while they sit back and let them do that without supporting their rights to get decent health care, pay, etc.
> 
> I will continue to assert my rights because of my age...I'm brave/stupid enough not to give a shit anymore about the consequences of my actions to fight for my rights. Do I really need to worry about what they will do to me? Federal minimum security prison with Cable TV, 3 meals a day, free health care. a place to smoke my cigars, ping pong, pool, library, jacuzzi and interesting people, etc. Yeah, lock me up!


_You know the funny part you don't even have to get off your arse and do anything. Just everybody in the country sit in your house for a month and don't do anything. Don't drive your car buy no Gas. Don't buy any alcohol cigarettes Cigars anything. Ruff it out. I bet you it wouldn't even last a week America would grind to a halt. The rich would shat their pants. They would call an emergency session to congress to listen to the peoples wants. Problem is we have gotten too soft. Everyone's afraid you can't get 10 people to agree on the time of day much less that. In our quest to litigate and legislate and debate everything to death. For the good of the greater majority. We have shackled ourselves with leg irons. I feel compelled to quote Jefferson again!
"When the people fear the Government there is tyranny. When the Government fears the people there is Liberty!"_


----------



## Cigary

TonyBrooklyn said:


> _You know the funny part you don't even have to get off your arse and do anything. Just everybody in the country sit in your house for a month and don't do anything. Don't drive your car buy no Gas. Don't buy any alcohol cigarettes Cigars anything. Ruff it out. I bet you it wouldn't even last a week America would grind to a halt. The rich would shat their pants. They would call an emergency session to congress to listen to the peoples wants. Problem is we have gotten too soft. Everyone's afraid you can't get 10 people to agree on the time of day much less that. In our quest to litigate and legislate and debate everything to death. For the good of the greater majority. We have shackled ourselves with leg irons. I feel compelled to quote Jefferson again!_
> _"When the people fear the Government there is tyranny. When the Government fears the people there is Liberty!"_


Downright scary that you have said exactly what I keep screaming at my wife all the time. Sit at home...don't drive for a week ( oil companies would be screaming at us to buy lowering the prices at the pumps like they do every day) don't make your house payment for 3 months and the banks will be calling you to see if they can help renegotiate your loan ( if everybody did this then the banks would have to come to the table) Stop paying those credit cards that are at 30% ( again, the banks will be calling to see if they can help by lowering the rate )

As Tony has said we've gotten so lazy and soft that they know this so we get bullied and they will continue to bully until something really bad happens....it's called a Depression and when it hits it will be too late.


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## Smokin Easy

I'm going to throw out a quote from Jefferson and it seems awful fitting for our situation.

"A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine" - Thomas Jefferson

We are the forty-nine here. Just as our fore-fathers were the forty-nine in their time. It seems to me that they had the right ideas on how to make sure that their voices were heard.


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## ChrisD

I really can't believe that they are trying to make it illegal to smoke in your own home. If you own your home, you should be able to do what you want in it.


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## Cantiloper

ChrisD said:


> I really can't believe that they are trying to make it illegal to smoke in your own home. If you own your home, you should be able to do what you want in it.


Chris, you can still smoke in your home with no problem as long as none of the neighbors or your children report you.

See? No problem at all!


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## BigBenny

Smokin Easy said:


> I'm going to throw out a quote from Jefferson and it seems awful fitting for our situation.
> 
> "A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine" - Thomas Jefferson
> 
> We are the forty-nine here. Just as our fore-fathers were the forty-nine in their time. It seems to me that they had the right ideas on how to make sure that their voices were heard.


You're right. That's why when the constitution was written and all the decisions were made about what system of government we were going to have, we came up with a Republic. Our elected officials are *supposed* to prevent any such thing, but it just makes it easier for them now.


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## sengjc

LMAO 

Bureaucracy gone crazy?

If you can't smoke in your home where can you smoke?

I guess technically if you go to your friend's house for a smoke, you aren't breaking the law or if you smoke outside your home it is ok because you are not technically in it, depends what the legal definition of a "home" is, I guess.

LMAO


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## Cantiloper

Sengjc wrote, "If you can't smoke in your home where can you smoke?"

Any place where you are at leat 100 feet away from any human being with
lungs who is trying to breathe. Any place in the ocean beyond the 12 mile 
limit (Has to be beyond 12 miles: the British Navy seems to be enforcing 
some sort of smoking ban on ships -- under ALL flags -- that sail in their 
waters.) Desert areas not declared national parks unless someone sees you 
and asks you to put it out. In your own stand alone home at least 25 feet 
from any neighboring homes and with the windows closed. 

Of course if it's pot then you can smoke it anywhere, because marijuana has 
been blessed with Magick by the beautiful Ganja Fairy Mother and restores 
your health and healthy outlook and that of any children playing nearby. 

- MJM


----------



## Mante

Cantiloper said:


> Of course if it's pot then you can smoke it anywhere, because marijuana has
> been blessed with Magick by the beautiful Ganja Fairy Mother and restores
> your health and healthy outlook and that of any children playing nearby.
> 
> - MJM


LMAO.... it's also considered to be "Green" and a renewable resource with a very small carbon footprint. :loco:


----------



## sengjc

LMAO :mrgreen:

You have some strange laws for smoking over there, matey. All they do here is tax you to death.

Your state government does realise they have lost a massive contributor to their election campaign fund plus revenue to the state's coffers, don't they? Must have some rich anti-smokers in California, I guess.

Wonder how the ex-governator is taking this. He's a BOTL, isn't he?


----------



## Herf N Turf

_"when they came for the infirmed, I did nothing, because I wasn't infirmed. When they came for the mentally ill, I did nothing, because I wasn't mentally ill. When they came for the homosexuals, I did nothing, because I wasn't a homosexual. When they came for the jew, I did nothing, because I wasn't a jew.

Then, they came for ME."-A Concentration Camp Prisoner, 1945_

Don't vote. Don't protest. Don't listen. Don't act. Sit on your hands. Everything will be FINE!


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## sengjc

Herf N Turf said:


> ...they came for ME."-A Concentration Camp Prisoner, 1945


That's a very interesting bit of literature. So what was "he" if he was not infirm, mentally ill, homosexual nor a Jew?


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## smelvis

Herf N Turf said:


> _"when they came for the infirmed, I did nothing, because I wasn't infirmed. When they came for the mentally ill, I did nothing, because I wasn't mentally ill. When they came for the homosexuals, I did nothing, because I wasn't a homosexual. When they came for the jew, I did nothing, because I wasn't a jew.
> 
> Then, they came for ME."-A Concentration Camp Prisoner, 1945_
> 
> Don't vote. Don't protest. Don't listen. Don't act. Sit on your hands. Everything will be FINE!


Good Point! What can we do bro? Letters, CRA I do that stuff don't really know what else to do!


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## Cantiloper

Herf, Sen, I believe the original quote is usually attributed to Rev. Martin Niemoller, a Protestant minister, with slightly different phrasing. Google Niemoller, and also google "First They Came..." for more information. 

Smelvis, join the Smokers Club, Forces, NYCCLASH, and any local groups in your area. Read the books that have been written: mine, Chris Snowdon's, Rich White's, Rick DiPierri's, Oakley's. Print out, bind, and share "The Lies Behind The Smoking Bans" (Google V.Gen5H and click on The Health Arguments). Get active on the Forces and Club discussion boards, but even more importantly be active on the news boards about smoking ban and tax articles. Use Google or NewsNow to search for stories or send me an email at Cantiloper over on AOL. 

You'll reach a much wider audience who needs to hear our voice that way than you will when posting here or at CRA: it's that audience we need to reach out to because they're they're the ones who'll largely be deciding what happens in the future now that the Antis have tipped the voting population in their favor. That tip can be reversed if enough people become aware of the manipulation and lies behind the bans, and our main tool for raising that awareness is on the net: it's the one arena the Antis haven't been able to control with their money and influence... yet.


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## TonyBrooklyn

Smokin Easy said:


> I'm going to throw out a quote from Jefferson and it seems awful fitting for our situation.
> 
> "A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine" - Thomas Jefferson
> 
> We are the forty-nine here. Just as our fore-fathers were the forty-nine in their time. It seems to me that they had the right ideas on how to make sure that their voices were heard.


Very true this is why our founding fathers never intended for America to be a true Democracy. But rather a democratic Republic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:yo:


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## Enrique1780

ridiculous. Patios were made for smoking.


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## DSturg369

When (notice I didn't say "if"), the world goes totally No-Smoking, I guess I'll be an outlaw.


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## sengjc

sengjc said:


> ...Wonder how the ex-governator is taking this. He's a BOTL, isn't he?


Ah, read the news article that answered my question. He's gone back to acting by doing Terminator 5. The smoking ban must have driven him mad. 

BTW, thanks for the info, Cantiloper.


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## Cantiloper

Sengjc, The Antismokers were absolutely apoplectic about his cigar tent. LOL! I remember one article where someone was proclaiming that he was endangering the lives of everyone in Sacramento. Seriously!!!

Hmmm.... thought I might have the source on that quickly available in my files but I don't. I *did* run across this little gem though:

==

Sacramento (CA) Bee, 2005-07-10
Ramon Coronado -- Bee Staff Writer

A group of anti-smoking organizations gathered at the south steps of the state Capitol on Saturday to make a stink about Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger's cigar-smoking tent.

"This is not his house. It belongs to every Californian," said Debi Austin, a cancer survivor who smoked through a hole in her throat in public service announcements circulated across the country.

Cynthia Hallett, executive director of Americans for Nonsmokers' Rights, said the governor is a role model and he is sending the wrong message.

"Mr. Schwarzenegger, tear down this tent," Hallett shouted from the podium as she looked down to about two dozen spectators who collected at the noontime protest.


===

- MJM


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## chu2

TonyBrooklyn said:


> They will rely on people ratting each other out. Much like in WWII the Nazi's always relied on rats, to tell them who was hiding Jews. To allow this sort of behavior to progress forward. Is to invite Communism, Socialism, Fascism into our lives. Whether you smoke or not surely this has to bother you.ainkiller:


 (Hitler was a capitalist and believed in liberal market economics) :dunno:

Other than that, I have to agree with you. It's a scary thought, to have someone tell me that I can't smoke on my own property. Honestly, though, I see both sides of the party line jumping on smoking legislation to a certain degree here in MI. Third party politics might form around tobacco, who knows?


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## chu2

sengjc said:


> That's a very interesting bit of literature. So what was "he" if he was not infirm, mentally ill, homosexual nor a Jew?


Probably said the wrong thing at the wrong time. I have a great-grandfather and grand-uncle who burned in Auschwitz because somehow, the wrong person found out he wasn't a fan of the Fuhrer's. My grandpa ended up in jail for a few months by association with the two. Honestly, if you weren't German, it wasn't difficult to end up rank and file behind barbed wire in East Europe.


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## Cantiloper

Rock31 said:


> Ridiculous, but how would they even begin to enforce this? Rely on neighbors to rat you out? Satellite cameras spying on your backyard?


Neighbors, spouses, and children. Children in many states are already 
quizzed about whether their parents smoke and whether they feel "exposed" 
to smoke at home. Once the infrastructure is widely in place and accepted 
then they just have to wait for the right political moment to put through 
enforcement mechanisms.

I actually ended my main 2005 outreach booklet (Google v.Gen5H and click 
on "The Health Arguments") with two pages looking at the invasion of the home
and the need to simply say "No" and withdraw cooperation in all of it.

- MJM


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