# Cigars on Ebay



## Del Fuego (Mar 29, 2017)

People are selling cigars on Ebay and being very sneaky about it.

It's against Ebay rules to sell any tobacco items even if antique, decorative or collectible.

One guy is selling cigar bands only. They are not rare or collectible. Eight bands for $127.50. In his photo, the bands are still on the cigars. The buyer is led to believe that for $127.50 he will also get the cigars. However, the seller could just send you the bands and you would have no recourse because what you receive meets the description.

Another guy is selling an open box of cigars with the cellophane taken off the sticks. How do you know he didn't put the bands on some cheap cigars? If he did, do you have recourse?

Another guy is selling a "Sealed box of 12 collectible bands" for $209.

Most of these sellers have 100% positive feedback. But if you leave negative feedback, they could have it removed because what your purchased met the description.

I've reported these to Ebay, but they don't take em down. I guess Ebay can't prove there's tobacco in the box.


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## Cigarer (Apr 12, 2014)

Live and let live


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## JtAv8tor (Apr 12, 2017)

Yeah I have seen that for years, laughed when a coworker of mine bragged about getting a 50 dollar box of CCs said it was just code on ebay to only show the box and not the cigars....laughed even harder when he got an empty box for said CCs with a note inside that said thanks very much for buying.


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## WABOOM (Oct 15, 2015)

I bought cigars on eBay twice, it worked out well. but being that eBay is seller based (unlike Amazon). Of course you could have bad experiences depending on the seller.


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## Alpedhuez55 (Dec 16, 2005)

I got a warning for selling un-openned aged Pipe Tobacco Tins last year. Usually you put a notice stating something to the effect that the auction if for the tin only and not the contents. I think I forgot to put put that notice on the last auction I did. I am not sure if that made the difference. 

The cigar bands sale sounds kind of sketchy. Do they have a return policy? You could always smoke the sticks and return bands only!!!


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## Del Fuego (Mar 29, 2017)

Alpedhuez55 said:


> I got a warning for selling un-openned aged Pipe Tobacco Tins last year. Usually you put a notice stating something to the effect that the auction if for the tin only and not the contents. I think I forgot to put put that notice on the last auction I did. I am not sure if that made the difference.
> 
> The cigar bands sale sounds kind of sketchy. Do they have a return policy? You could always smoke the sticks and return bands only!!!


That's some shady stuff but I'm laughing at how easy it might be to pull that off. I wouldn't attempt to. I'm sure most have a no return policy. I wouldn't buy cigars off Ebay anyway. If you get ripped, there's nothing you can do about it.


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## Saetherhaug (Dec 31, 2016)

I once saw 5 Fohibas go for 340-something dollars... I mean, it was really obvious they were fake, like, the band looked like they were coloured in Windows Paint and printed on A4 regular paper, then cut out with scissors by a 6 year old. None of the bands were the same size, and the cigars had different colours. 

Broke my heart when i saw they were sold even though i reported it.. I just imagine some guy wanting to buy some cubans for him and his friends to celebrate something, not realising what they were.


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

Hide what this guy is selling right out in the open!

FUENTE FUENTE OPUS X Single Cigar | eBay


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## Yukoner (Sep 22, 2016)

*shudder* I just couldn't bring myself to try and buy cigars on eBay.


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## MattT (May 31, 2017)

Yukoner said:


> *shudder* I just couldn't bring myself to try and buy cigars on eBay.


Yeah, I wouldn't trust it at all. It's definitely risky because you really don't know what you're getting. Good luck getting your money back on something that shouldn't even be sold on eBay. Try cigarbid.

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## csk415 (Sep 6, 2016)

Why report it? Pretty much anything bought off ebay is buyer beware. Its your responsibility to make sure your getting exactly what you think your getting. I get that its "against" the rules but so is sending sticks through any parcel service and ordering certain sticks abroad. Why police the hobby your partake in? Plenty of successful cigar band sales have been made on ebay with no problems.


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## TCstr8 (Mar 30, 2016)

csk415 said:


> Why report it? Pretty much anything bought off ebay is buyer beware. Its your responsibility to make sure your getting exactly what you think your getting. I get that its "against" the rules but so is sending sticks through any parcel service and ordering certain sticks abroad. Why police the hobby your partake in? Plenty of successful cigar band sales have been made on ebay with no problems.


Per USPS regs, shipping cigars is fine. The individual mouth breather at the USPS office may think otherwise though. And reporting a shady seller protects others in the hobby. Some noob, not knowing any better gets ripped off on eBay and then abandons the hobby all together...not ideal.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

csk415 said:


> Why report it? Pretty much anything bought off ebay is buyer beware. Its your responsibility to make sure your getting exactly what you think your getting. I get that its "against" the rules but so is sending sticks through any parcel service and ordering certain sticks abroad. Why police the hobby your partake in? Plenty of successful cigar band sales have been made on ebay with no problems.





TCstr8 said:


> Per USPS regs, shipping cigars is fine. The individual mouth breather at the USPS office may think otherwise though. And reporting a shady seller protects others in the hobby. Some noob, not knowing any better gets ripped off on eBay and then abandons the hobby all together...not ideal.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


There is truth in both your posts. I like the way you both expressed your difference of opinion. In a respectful manner R/G all the way around:vs_cool:


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## csk415 (Sep 6, 2016)

TCstr8 said:


> Per USPS regs, shipping cigars is fine. The individual mouth breather at the USPS office may think otherwise though. And reporting a shady seller protects others in the hobby. Some noob, not knowing any better gets ripped off on eBay and then abandons the hobby all together...not ideal.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


I misspoke on the usps part, my mistake. Tobacco (cigarettes) is not prohibited domestically only internationally per their site. Still not going to label my box as cigars.

I agree 100% to report a seller you know to be shady. But, the original post wasn't about reporting shady people. It was about reporting sneaky people.

_*People are selling cigars on Ebay and being very sneaky about it.

It's against Ebay rules to sell any tobacco items even if antique, decorative or collectible.*_

They are being sneaky because they are selling something against the rules. How else are they going to sell it on ebay. Why report someone for being sneaky when there is no proof they are shady? If anything they are guilty of price gouging.

This debate can go back and forth forever. It's a matter of different opinions.


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## TCstr8 (Mar 30, 2016)

csk415 said:


> I misspoke on the usps part, my mistake. Tobacco (cigarettes) is not prohibited domestically only internationally per their site. Still not going to label my box as cigars.
> 
> I agree 100% to report a seller you know to be shady. But, the original post wasn't about reporting shady people. It was about reporting sneaky people.
> 
> ...


Agree. Will agree to disagree. If someone is side stepping rules and being sneaky, doesn't seem like it's a large step to take to be shady about it. Like others have said, what recourse would a buyer have? Probably none.

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## Del Fuego (Mar 29, 2017)

csk415 said:


> Why report it? Pretty much anything bought off ebay is buyer beware. Its your responsibility to make sure your getting exactly what you think your getting. I get that its "against" the rules but so is sending sticks through any parcel service and ordering certain sticks abroad. Why police the hobby your partake in? Plenty of successful cigar band sales have been made on ebay with no problems.


I get what you're saying, but the potential to be scammed is high. If you take the risk of buying cigars on Ebay and don't get scammed, good for you. But did you have any real idea as to whether or not you were dealing with a safe seller? Did you realize that if you paid $200 and were shipped only bands, that there's no recourse to get your money back? Did you realize that Ebay will actually protect the scammer in the event that you dispute what you were sold?

The point of my OP was not to point out that people are being sneaky. I pointed out that they have a clean and safe way to rip you off. I thought I was pretty clear about that.

Check out this auction. Tell me if you are confident that you will indeed receive cigars and not just bands:

HTF Drew Liga Privada Unico Series Cigar Bands not Opus X or Padron | eBay

And if you receive bands, what can you do about it?


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## Fusion (Apr 5, 2017)

I buy sell a lot on ebay, never be afraid of buying anything, ebay/pp will refund your money 100% of the time.
If you buy bands but expect cigars then only get bands, claim your money back, all you have to say is they were not up to your expectations, its that easy, may take a few weeks but you will get refunded and take no notice when they say "no returns" you will still be refunded.


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## csk415 (Sep 6, 2016)

Del Fuego said:


> I get what you're saying, but the potential to be scammed is high. If you take the risk of buying cigars on Ebay and don't get scammed, good for you. But did you have any real idea as to whether or not you were dealing with a safe seller? Did you realize that if you paid $200 and were shipped only bands, that there's no recourse to get your money back? Did you realize that Ebay will actually protect the scammer in the event that you dispute what you were sold?
> 
> The point of my OP was not to point out that people are being sneaky. I pointed out that they have a clean and safe way to rip you off. I thought I was pretty clear about that.
> 
> ...


Ill have to check out that link later. At work and ebay is blocked.

I do agree with you that there is no way to know that its not a scam. My view is a different than yours and we would both be pissing into the wind if we try to convince each other different.


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## TCstr8 (Mar 30, 2016)

Fusion said:


> I buy sell a lot on ebay, never be afraid of buying anything, ebay/pp will refund your money 100% of the time.
> If you buy bands but expect cigars then only get bands, claim your money back, all you have to say is they were not up to your expectations, its that easy, may take a few weeks but you will get refunded and take no notice when they say "no returns" you will still be refunded.


Things may be different now, but a number of years ago I was selling alot of sports cards on eBay, and on occasion would have a buyer try to get a refund stating the card wasn't as described. I was always upfront in the description and multiple pics and never once had a buyer get a refund after disputing with eBay. And if I remember correctly when listing items you can specify whether a buyer can return item. If NO, then it is on the buyer to prove the item received was not the item described in listing.

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## Fusion (Apr 5, 2017)

TCstr8 said:


> Things may be different now, but a number of years ago I was selling alot of sports cards on eBay, and on occasion would have a buyer try to get a refund stating the card wasn't as described. I was always upfront in the description and multiple pics and never once had a buyer get a refund after disputing with eBay. And if I remember correctly when listing items you can specify whether a buyer can return item. If NO, then it is on the buyer to prove the item received was not the item described in listing.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


Your right, it used to be like that, now all the sellers are complaining its too easy for the buyers to claim, which it is, if you buy something and decide 90 days later you dont like it you can claim your money back, if the seller refuses PP will just take it from the bank account you have registered with them.


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## TCstr8 (Mar 30, 2016)

Fusion said:


> Your right, it used to be like that, now all the sellers are complaining its too easy for the buyers to claim, which it is, if you buy something and decide 90 days later you dont like it you can claim your money back, if the seller refuses PP will just take it from the bank account you have registered with them.


Wow. Good to know. Thats terrible.

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## Del Fuego (Mar 29, 2017)

Fusion said:


> I buy sell a lot on ebay, never be afraid of buying anything, ebay/pp will refund your money 100% of the time.
> If you buy bands but expect cigars then only get bands, claim your money back, all you have to say is they were not up to your expectations, its that easy, may take a few weeks but you will get refunded and take no notice when they say "no returns" you will still be refunded.


Your experience with Ebay's Money Back Guarantee policy might vary.....as it has for many people. It's not always as simple as you make it out to be. The guarantee protects you if the item is not received or if what you received does not meet the description.

But lets say that you do go through with the claim to get your money back. Was it worth it? How long did it take to get your money back? A few weeks????

There's far too many legit resources out there for buying cigars. Why jump into a market of potential scammers? Just because it may or may not be easy to get your money back if your ripped off? I'll pass.


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## Fusion (Apr 5, 2017)

Del Fuego said:


> Your experience with Ebay's Money Back Guarantee policy might vary.....as it has for many people. It's not always as simple as you make it out to be. The guarantee protects you if the item is not received or if what you received does not meet the description.
> 
> But lets say that you do go through with the claim to get your money back. Was it worth it? How long did it take to get your money back? A few weeks????
> 
> There's far too many legit resources out there for buying cigars. Why jump into a market of potential scammers? Just because it may or may not be easy to get your money back if your ripped off? I'll pass.


Oh im not at all suggesting you buy cigars from ebay, i never would even though i know i could get refunded, i was just making the point that ebay now fully supports the buyer.


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## Del Fuego (Mar 29, 2017)

Fusion said:


> Oh im not at all suggesting you buy cigars from ebay, i never would even though i know i could get refunded, i was just making the point that ebay now fully supports the buyer.


Okay cool. It's just that when you say "never be afraid of buying anything", you're basically giving people a green light to go ahead and shop for cigars on Ebay.

Anyway, the thread has ran it's course. We've all made our points. I just wanted people to be aware that buying cigars on Ebay is iffy and can very much be a "smoke and mirrors" kinda deal.


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## BillH (Apr 30, 2017)

My wife just recently sold a pair of jeans she found at the outlets for a good price. Lady said they didn't fit her and wanted her money back, she (my wife )refused the refund, she gave the lady all of the measurements. Then a few hours later the lady (she ain't no lady) said "oh, by the way, there's a hole in the seam".. that's just common and low.. she ended up having to give the money back. I wouldn't buy cigars off of eBay but I really wouldn't do something so base as what she did. 

Finagling your way around return policies from other people is infuriating for the seller and has a way of bouncing back to you in other departments of the big box store of life.

Also, what Señor del Fuego said ^


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## habanos (Jun 10, 2017)

I've purchased OpusX and other Fuente cigars on eBay (full boxes), never had an issue. I also purchase via credit card, should an issue ever arise.


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## Del Fuego (Mar 29, 2017)

habanos said:


> I've purchased OpusX and other Fuente cigars on eBay (full boxes), never had an issue. I also purchase via credit card, should an issue ever arise.


Good for you...


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## bozoo (Sep 26, 2016)

Del Fuego said:


> There's far too many legit resources out there for buying cigars. Why jump into a market of potential scammers? Just because it may or may not be easy to get your money back if your ripped off? I'll pass.


This pretty much sums up what I feel about the topic. Reputable retailers provide more deals than I can purchase; can't expect ebay prices will beat them. And since they're not reputable (wouldn't trust the guy who clearly tries to omit the rules of the service [ebay] that he had accepted!) - I simply don't see the reason to trust.
There is another thing with discontinued series, that are no longer offered by stores, but still - I don't trust.


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## FMichael (Aug 7, 2016)

Yukoner said:


> *shudder* I just couldn't bring myself to try and buy cigars on eBay.


No kidding...So many shady sellers on ebay...Like most others I stick with Famous Smoke Shop, and Cigars International (along with their auction sites).


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## habanos (Jun 10, 2017)

Del Fuego said:


> Good for you...


.


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## habanos (Jun 10, 2017)

FMichael said:


> No kidding...So many shady sellers on ebay...Like most others I stick with Famous Smoke Shop, and Cigars International (along with their auction sites).


For the rare cigars, it can be a trying task to get them through local channels. I only buy boxes, not single sticks, so it's never been an issue.


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## Bigjohn (Apr 6, 2017)

I don't really see a reason to ever buy cigars on eBay with so many great sources. I do agree with @Fusion though, eBay always sides with buyer. I have been on eBay for over 10 years. If a buyer says "item doesn't seem authentic" it's on the seller to prove otherwise. Between eBay, ****** and your CC (that's credit card ), you have multiple layers of protection as a buyer. If a buyer says they got an empty box or a beach rock instead of the item, a seller is screwed 100% of the time, eBay yanks the money right out.

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## MattT (May 31, 2017)

Bigjohn said:


> I don't really see a reason to ever buy cigars on eBay with so many great sources. I do agree with @Fusion though, eBay always sides with buyer. I have been on eBay for over 10 years. If a buyer says "item doesn't seem authentic" it's on the seller to prove otherwise. Between eBay, ****** and your CC (that's credit card ), you have multiple layers of protection as a buyer. If a buyer says they got an empty box or a beach rock instead of the item, a seller is screwed 100% of the time, eBay yanks the money right out.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Couldn't agree more. Too many good sources to waste time with eBay. Their policy favoring buyers is the reason I stopped selling anything on there. That being said, shady sellers don't care about policy.

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## habanos (Jun 10, 2017)

To each their own.


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## quesquared (May 23, 2017)

I don't think that I would be comfortable buying cigars from eBay. Just not sure of the quality. I have nothing against it, but just not for me. 

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## SeanTheEvans (Dec 13, 2013)

Del Fuego said:


> People are selling cigars on Ebay and being very sneaky about it.
> 
> It's against Ebay rules to sell any tobacco items even if antique, decorative or collectible.
> 
> ...


Booo! People reporting random cigar sales on e-bay is the reason I can't do it anymore. Thanks a lot, from a guy who wasn't scamming anyone. Why would you go around reporting someone who has 100% positive feedback? Booooooooooooooooo!


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## n00b (Jul 18, 2011)

i buy and sell cigars on ebay all the time. no problems.


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## Del Fuego (Mar 29, 2017)

SeanTheEvans said:


> Booo! People reporting random cigar sales on e-bay is the reason I can't do it anymore. Thanks a lot, from a guy who wasn't scamming anyone. Why would you go around reporting someone who has 100% positive feedback? Booooooooooooooooo!


100% feedback doesn't mean much when the seller can reverse bad feedback if the item shipped matches the description.

As the number of good sellers increase, it makes it easier for scammers to blend in. Sure, there's a lot of good guys out there selling legit cigars on Ebay, but there's also the wolves in sheeps clothing. Those who wander into the field can't tell the difference.

I don't like that people sell open boxes of cigars on ebay. It's an invitation for band swapping. It's not much different from all the cigar scams on Craigslist.

Call me old fashioned, but any house that has an open door invitation for scammers needs to be shut down and boarded up. Rules are rules.


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## jc389 (Jun 24, 2017)

Why would you want to risk selling on ebay since you have no idea of the age of the buyer? I am thinking that selling a age restricted item across state lines via the US mail could somehow turn into some crazy federal crap. Doesn't seem worth the risk to me.


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## SeanTheEvans (Dec 13, 2013)

Thank goodness we have good citizens to police all of the sheep who don't know what's for their own good. Glad we have a self-proclaimed guardian protecting the flock.

If anywhere that has potential for scammers should be shut down - just about every forum, including this one, needs to go! 

No more passes! No more PIF! Hell NO no more N00b PIF! WTS/WTB? No way! All for the protection of our good-natured and uninformed members, of course!

This is certainly what the world needs more of- particularly when there's no sign of wrong-doing (because you know, it MIGHT have happened and been swept under the rug!)

Weak shizzle is all I can really say. Go boss yourself around instead of telling other people how to live their lives and inserting yourself where you're not involved nor particularly wanted (if you don't like a listing, ignore it). Sounds like the kid who reminds the teacher that they forgot to assign homework, as if there wasn't enough policing in the world already.... :rant:


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## Bird-Dog (Oct 16, 2009)

It's against eBay rules. Why is that not a sufficient answer?


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## jc389 (Jun 24, 2017)

I'm not sure if it was me that poked the lion or not but I apologize if it was. I wasn't trying to police anyone... just with our crazy government they dream crap up all the time to stick it to people.


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## bpegler (Mar 30, 2006)

SeanTheEvans said:


> Thank goodness we have good citizens to police all of the sheep who don't know what's for their own good. Glad we have a self-proclaimed guardian protecting the flock.
> 
> If anywhere that has potential for scammers should be shut down - just about every forum, including this one, needs to go!
> 
> ...


Perhaps you are ignoring the rights of the business owners?

If they have clear guidelines for sales, surely we should respect them, don't you think?

If eBay doesn't allow for tobacco sales, that is their prerogative. Trying to sneak around their rules is dishonest, and possibly puts their business at risk.

If this site allows for sales of cigars, that is their right as well. Puff is clear about their rules for sales and trades.

I'm a big fan of liberty, but not of anarchy.


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## UBC03 (Nov 18, 2015)

Personally I don't buy cigars on flea bay. 

Before things get too heated up. We're all guilty of rules infractions on seller/banking sites..

I know when I use friends and family, I don't mention cigars for a reason. 

Rules are there for a reason. If you choose to bend or break them. It's your @ss and money on the line. We all have that line we won't cross. You alone make the determination of were you draw it.

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## SoCal Gunner (Apr 7, 2016)

I think it's the tattletales we could do without.


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## droy1958 (Sep 3, 2014)

Cigars aside, though somewhat expensive to sell on eBay, they provide a place to sell damn near anything 24/7/365 world wide. They provide buyer and seller protection that is generally fair to both sides. I've been on there selling since October 2009. I've completed over 14,750 transactions with a feedback rating over 9050 at 100% satisfaction. I've sold everything from a $3.00 fishing lure to over $5000.00 Rolex watches. There's a bunch of us that go way out of our way to make sure your experience is top notch. Just me, and not against anyone, but it does piss me off to see people posting that it's a bunch of crooks, scammers etc. Errr....no, I don't work for ebay....


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## Cigary (Oct 19, 2007)

n00b said:


> i buy and sell cigars on ebay all the time. no problems.


Doesn't speak very much to your character when you know it's wrong now does it....esp. when you brag about it in public. I'd think twice before doing any Cigar business with you.


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## Del Fuego (Mar 29, 2017)

SeanTheEvans said:


> Thank goodness we have good citizens to police all of the sheep who don't know what's for their own good. Glad we have a self-proclaimed guardian protecting the flock.


There's a lot of noobs around here. Nothing wrong with mentioning the risk involved when buying cigars on Ebay.



SeanTheEvans said:


> If anywhere that has potential for scammers should be shut down - just about every forum, including this one, needs to go!
> 
> No more passes! No more PIF! Hell NO no more N00b PIF! WTS/WTB? No way! All for the protection of our good-natured and uninformed members, of course! This is certainly what the world needs more of- particularly when there's no sign of wrong-doing....


Now you're just being ridiculous. There's no risk of being scammed on this forum or in a pass. We have post requirements and reputation. What are the odds of someone actually taking the time to reach 100 posts just to scam someone out of a few bucks? I'll bet it's never actually happened. Earlier in this thread, someone mentioned that a friend of his bought some "Cuban" cigars on Ebay. The item shipped was an empty Cuban box with bands on the inside. No sign of wrong doing? You're nowhere close to comparing apples to apples. You wanna align the Puff WTS/WTB forum with Craigslist as well?



SeanTheEvans said:


> Weak shizzle is all I can really say.......


Well that's good, because if you did have something more to say it wouldn't be worth a s**t anyway. You're defending a scammers marketplace and the violation of Ebay policy which means nothing to you. I reported 3 Ebay cigar listings to see what would happen. I created the thread to inform members about the Ebay cigar risk. If that's your definition of weak shizzle, it's clear you could care less about anyone around here except yourself which speaks much lower of you than I.


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## WABOOM (Oct 15, 2015)




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## Cigary (Oct 19, 2007)

Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater here....just about anything these days has a propensity to scams....any Forum, Craigslist, Fleabay, etc. What's important to note is who is going to standup and be counted to stem the tide of scamming. These days it seems to be more important to side-step or spin things so as to appropriate those things people want regardless of what one does to GET what they want...."ends justifying the means. If resorting to these kinds of measures is deemed as ok.....then there's a problem and there's not enough sand to cover that kind of crap. 

Involving one's self in marginal deals carry's the connotation of cheating no matter what the weak defense might be...either be honest in your dealings or be labeled what you do as "shady"....you don't get to claim both.

If there was any or is any collusion as far as scamming here that Member or any Members would have the shelf life of a house fly. Zero tolerance of this kind of activity....so in general...if anybody thinks they can get away with it on here....be forewarned.

As for any actions that involve other types of actions on other kinds of businesses .....caveat emptor.


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## Bird-Dog (Oct 16, 2009)

SeanTheEvans said:


> If anywhere that has potential for scammers should be shut down - just about every forum, including this one, needs to go!
> 
> No more passes! No more PIF! Hell NO no more N00b PIF! WTS/WTB? No way! All for the protection of our good-natured and uninformed members, of course!


I'm glad you brought this up. Though we soft-peddle it and try to stay invisible on these most of the time, here on Puff Mods do police PIF's and trades and WTS's and passes. And it's precisely because of the potential for scammers that we reserve the right of oversight on all of these! And, BTW, we also are happy to have problems brought to our attention by other members too, whether to do with exchanges or other rule violations.

Maybe I should have posted this on the "_One too many drink thread_", but it's not too many drinks I've had right now, it's too frickin' many aggravations! Soooooo... sorry Sean, but you are dead wrong on this one. It's not a free-for-all, here or eBay. We have rules. So do they. We expect everyone to adhere to our rules. Period. And I can imagine eBay feeling exactly the same way.

If you're looking for loopholes... well, just DON'T! It's a reflection on the entire site... whether we're talking here or eBay. If I see a blatant violation of eBay rules I'm going to report it too. It's eBay's response to it that dictates whether they are providing a market I can have any trust in whatsoever, and I'm sure as hell not prepared to trust a seller who flaunts their rules.

_________________________________________________

OT

And I'm going to use this opportunity to get a couple of other things off my chest that have been bothering me. If a pass, or PIF, or trade, or whatever kind of exchange says you must have _X_ trading feedback to participate, then that's the way it should remain. If someone isn't there yet, so sorry, they'll just have to wait until they are. Don't step in to vouch for someone else who doesn't meet the criteria. That's all too often how things go South. There's a lively exchange of cigars here, whether in these sorts of things or bombs or whatever. And don't anyone doubt that there are unscrupulous lurkers who see all this going on and would sign up just to play nicey-nicey until they get the chance to burn someone for a bunch of freebies.

If one of these exchanges specifies _Y_ dollar value, or _Z_ number of cigars, do that! Don't play _quin es mas macho_ to prove you can send more than anyone else! It creates an escalation that ends up embarrassing others and tends to cause members to refrain from participating in future exchanges because they are either afraid they can't compete or simply do not want to enter into an unknown where the rules set forth mean nothing. When the WTS requires set prices, which it does 100% of the time here, then state your selling prices and don't make us chase you down to get you to comply with the rules.

You can call it passive-aggressive like one recently departed member did, but I choose not to single anyone out in these comments. In most cases I have seen several past events for each example. And I'm really tired of just watching it happen. Same goes for the eBay stuff, so there is a correlation.

I'll leave it there, though I could go on. But, if anyone is in the mood for a good knock-down, drag-out fight tonight, I'm ready! But I would not recommend it!


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## Cigary (Oct 19, 2007)

Jack is 100% right and glad he wrote this up...the Mods WILL do what is right no matter the cost . #gotJacksback


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## Bird-Dog (Oct 16, 2009)

Cigary said:


> Jack is 100% right and glad he wrote this up...the Mods WILL do what is right no matter the cost . #gotJacksback


Back at ya Gary! Like I said, it's a reflection on the integrity of the entire site, not just the individuals involved.


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## bpegler (Mar 30, 2006)

Of course we have had scams here on Puff. But the scammers were sent into the darkness.

But let me just remind everyone, that the largest scam I know of was conducted by a supposed BOTL with years of positive feedback and hundreds of sales on another board.

He was a member here at one time (back when we were still Club Stogie). But he didn't sell here.

He sold between high 5 figures to low 6 figures of fake Dunhills.

That being said, anyone who is buying Cuban cigars on eBay or Craigslist are asking to be ripped off. I promise you that 99% of those cigars are fakes.

And if you believe that you've found the magic 1% that are real, I have some oceanfront property here in Tennessee that I'll sell for a steal...


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## Cigary (Oct 19, 2007)

bpegler said:


> Of course we have had scams here on Puff. But the scammers were sent into the darkness.
> 
> But let me just remind everyone, that the largest scam I know of was conducted by a supposed BOTL with years of positive feedback and hundreds of sales on another board.
> 
> ...


Is this the same member who was in the "service" who was selling high end cigars ( supposedly) and taking the band's from them and putting them on mediocre cigars? He sent the authentic cigars to highly respected members as cover for his scam and did this for years amassing quite a sum until he got busted. I'm thinking his name was David and went by an ID I can't remember but some scams can be very elaborate and last for quite awhile in some instances. The Cigar Community can be a very easy target for scammers because of the inherent generosity of the people....this is one reason I get so pissed at "some" who display these same tendencies of trying to scam others by using the very same tactics that I've seen too many times...and I know you've seen them, too. It's a 2 edged sword when some come in here to do harm and hide behind their craft of grooming members that have no clue what's going on. Another reason why we need veteran Members who can spot the scammers early.


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## bpegler (Mar 30, 2006)

Cigary said:


> Is this the same member who was in the "service" who was selling high end cigars ( supposedly) and taking the band's from them and putting them on mediocre cigars? He sent the authentic cigars to highly respected members as cover for his scam and did this for years amassing quite a sum until he got busted. I'm thinking his name was David and went by an ID I can't remember but some scams can be very elaborate and last for quite awhile in some instances. The Cigar Community can be a very easy target for scammers because of the inherent generosity of the people....this is one reason I get so pissed at "some" who display these same tendencies of trying to scam others by using the very same tactics that I've seen too many times...and I know you've seen them, too. It's a 2 edged sword when some come in here to do harm and hide behind their craft of grooming members that have no clue what's going on. Another reason why we need veteran Members who can spot the scammers early.


Different guy, but as you point out, cigars can be easily faked. And any luxury product will invite the old approach of confidence men that you outlined.

That's why, in most cases, the best approach is to buy from a legitimate vendor.


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## SeanTheEvans (Dec 13, 2013)

bpegler said:


> Puff is clear about their rules for sales and trades.
> 
> I'm a big fan of liberty, but not of anarchy.


But I do believe that Cubans are both traded AND sold here... (they're not even allowed to be IMPORTED into the US, right?)

So I doubt that some internet sales of cigars on eBay could really be considered anarchy.

I have no problem with people flagging fake cohibas being sold on the Bay, but someone with 100% positive feedback selling legit cigars? 
Seems a bit heavy-handed for the white knight.



UBC03 said:


> Personally I don't buy cigars on flea bay.
> 
> Before things get too heated up. We're all guilty of rules infractions on seller/banking sites..
> 
> ...


I like this opinion - seems fair enough. Let the people who are spending money determine their own appetite for risk. Pretty reasonable. At least we're recognizing that PP F&F for "transactions" is yet another rule we (mostly) all skirt around here.



SoCal Gunner said:


> I think it's the tattletales we could do without.


Well put! Kind of like people in relationships - if I'm not the one involved, it's none of my business and I stay OUT! Unless it's abusive, in which case you can certainly offer help. But I don't go around calling the police on any couple having a domestic quarrel, that's for sure.

For an individual to arbitrarily go around the internet reinforcing only the rules that THEY deem appropriate and important... well that seems a bit ridiculous & self-serving, rather than benefiting a greater community or "protecting" individuals. Particularly when "protecting" them from folks who are giving them access to cigars they can't regularly buy. Who are any of us to determine who has what right to buy an item?

Or is everyone here paying their state taxes on internet purchases, following all applicable tobacco laws, and never passing the speed limit while driving? If so, I guess stones can start to be thrown. Until then, perhaps a little glass of mind-your-own-business could be helpful when dealing with strangers online?


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## SeanTheEvans (Dec 13, 2013)

Del Fuego said:


> There's a lot of noobs around here. Nothing wrong with mentioning the risk involved when buying cigars on Ebay.
> Nobody was ever bothered by you mentioning risk involved when purchasing cigars on eBay. Non-issue.
> 
> Now you're just being ridiculous. Am I?
> ...


the lulz abound here :grin2:

I'm not trustworthy, my pass wasn't stolen here on Puff, and I don't care about anyone buy myself (despite having written advice and help for hundreds of members on here in thousands of posts over time.....

But continue spouting off about things you know nothing about, it makes your point even stronger!:vs_laugh:

Also, for a guy so into the rules - perhaps you should lay off the personal attacks. It's part of the *forum rules *buddy


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## LeatherNeck (Feb 8, 2017)

:tape::tape::tape:eep:op:op:op:


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## Cigary (Oct 19, 2007)

SeanTheEvans said:


> But I do believe that Cubans are both traded AND sold here... (they're not even allowed to be IMPORTED into the US, right?)
> 
> So I doubt that some internet sales of cigars on eBay could really be considered anarchy.
> 
> ...


So many things that I have a real tendency to take issue with that it would take more time and space to make the points here...suffice to say we're not here to be Internet Police nor is that my interest. Do I think that CC's are traded, bought and sold....of course they are. What does happen is when somebody gets ripped off or wants something investigated that we try to mitigate issues. I can be flip about the realities of anybody getting involved in dealing with unauthorized illegal cigars being bought, sold, traded or what have you. 
When these things are done flagrantly and they cause harm then I will act on it and not because I have a fantasy "protectionism" thing going on. When something is wrong...it's wrong esp. when it's being done in your face.

We're here to protect the site when we see things that subborn the buying or selling of CC's....if we become aware of it we will do what we are obligated to. We're not here to babysit those who deal in things in the dark....if one doesn't pay their taxes, speeds, deals in soft illegal activities....that's on them but don't think that there is space to drive a debate as to do stuff like this that it is ok to do anytime all day long w/o pushback. If one wants to look for ways to circumvent what is right by using illogical POV that it is ok to be sneaky or underhanded in getting what they want.....I don't agree with philosophy nor will I accept a counter debate of me being "righteous" pursuer of what is right....that's just a flat out excuse to look for a loophole to do wrong things. There is a difference between right and wrong and we each are responsible for that making that choice and not trying to muddle it with ....it's not that big of a deal.


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## Cigary (Oct 19, 2007)

For the record here....keep the tone respectful or I'll close it. We can disagree w/o being disagreeable and we have our opinions...so let's understand this rule before anything else is said.


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## SeanTheEvans (Dec 13, 2013)

Cigary said:


> So many things that I have a real tendency to take issue with that it would take more time and space to make the points here...suffice to say we're not here to be Internet Police nor is that my interest.


I've never felt "policed" here at Puff, and thoroughly enjoy the community and my time spent within it. :ss
The rules here are simple enough, and along with good judgement, help aid in the protection of the members, who in the end are responsible for their own choices and actions. All makes sense and contributes to a happy and healthy forum! :grouphug:

:high5:Shout Out Thanks to the Owners, Admins, Mods and Members!eace:

What this thread seems like to me is a case of "My friend got scammed, so now I have a vendetta against all who try to sell cigars on eBay, cuz they MIGHT be scammers too!":boohoo:
If it was a simple, "Buyer Beware, there are shady people on CL & eBay" rather than an acknowledgement that OP spends their free time harassing eBay sellers who may or may not be scamming anybody (besides eBay perhaps? who doesn't mind taking their fees from cigar sales that don't get removed), then this would be a different conversation altogether. :doh:

If you don't want to take part in something "iffy", feel free to stay out of it, particularly if it's none of your business. Or would it only be right if someone were to report anybody posting regular pictures of their CCs on the forum, all in the name of destroying that which is "shady"! (Anybody willing to acquire CC through illegal means MUST be a dishonest individual, and needs to be stopped!) :c

I'm a fan of blankets, but not blanket-statements nor the actions that often follow :flypig:


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## Ranger0282 (Mar 12, 2016)

I am NOT the Smartestest Guy in the World......Can I Please have an "AMEN".... I learned a long time ago not to get involved in these types of discussions here on Puff but I just see this as such a simple thing. I will keep this Short...... Follow The Rules....... Easy..... Don't look for loopholes or try and circumvent the rules, just follow them as they are set. If EBay says "No Tobacco" then No Tobacco. It doesn't matter if you have a 1000% approval rating and GOD himself trust you to sell what you say you are selling...the rules say "No Tobacco" Sean, I like you and have bought cigars from you and have been very satisfied. But, we should all play by the rules and I think you are wrong on this one. You shouldn't get pissed at ANYONE ( not saying you are ) if you are reported. If I started a website and said everyone must start their thread by stating "God Bless America" it's my website and my rules. If you don't like my rules....go somewhere else.


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## ADRUNKK (Aug 16, 2016)

Subscribed.


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## SeanTheEvans (Dec 13, 2013)

Ranger0282 said:


> I am NOT the Smartestest Guy in the World......Can I Please have an "AMEN".... I learned a long time ago not to get involved in these types of discussions here on Puff but I just see this as such a simple thing. I will keep this Short...... Follow The Rules....... Easy..... Don't look for loopholes or try and circumvent the rules, just follow them as they are set. If EBay says "No Tobacco" then No Tobacco. It doesn't matter if you have a 1000% approval rating and GOD himself trust you to sell what you say you are selling...the rules say "No Tobacco" Sean, I like you and have bought cigars from you and have been very satisfied. But, we should all play by the rules and I think you are wrong on this one. You shouldn't get pissed at ANYONE ( not saying you are ) if you are reported. If I started a website and said everyone must start their thread by stating "God Bless America" it's my website and my rules. If you don't like my rules....go somewhere else.


Fair enough, but don't you feel hypocritical that you live in America where tobacco can't be sold without a license, yet you've received some by mail from someone who does not own an authorized shop? There's a lot of gray area where we all operate in this respect. Same goes with Cubans... or does everyone here believe that all the Cubans smoked by all the members here came across in personal amounts less than $200 from those with legal travel permits?

Or do we only need to follow the rules that we personally feel are important enough to follow? Because if we're going to argue following EVERY rule, it becomes asinine. You can do it as a form of protest, actually- following every rule to the point where it becomes a hindrance to regular operations, within a company, a college, etc, as a way that you can remain "in the right" while crippling any form of productivity due to maintaining every rule. Google "work-to-rule"

Anyone here ever put any misinformation into a website or app and then click yes to those terms of agreement? If so, that's a felony, FYI. I hope you all don't have any e-mail addresses owned by fake names, or funny FB names, or ever signed up for something and used a fake e-mail address or last name. Most Americans do this on the regular, so if we're going to be sticklers for every rule now...>

also, I will say again, I don't think eBay itself minds the selling. They reap their profit, and they aren't the ones flagging things- it's the "do-gooders" and self-appointed police that flag listings and cause for removal. I believe to remain within whatever guidelines they have to follow, they must put the "no tobacco" along with "no embargo goods", so while I don't think they care if you actually sell empty cuban cigar boxes for $5 each, they will remove those listings as well if they are flagged by users. It's bureaucracy, which is easily circumvented through simple clever tricks so that buyers and sellers can still transfer products to one another happily.... until the hall monitor comes through!


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## bpegler (Mar 30, 2006)

Speaking of misinformation, let me remind members here that it is completely legal for US citizens to bring Cuban cigars into the US when returning from overseas, as long as they are for personal use. The first 100 cigars, or $800 in value are duty free. That is per person, so if your are traveling with your spouse, she can also bring 100 back duty free. You can legally bring more than 100 cigars back, but you will have to pay duty on them.

If you're going to quote "rules", please do so correctly.

Edit, this is for ANY international travel, not just Cuba. And you can do this every 30 days.


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## SeanTheEvans (Dec 13, 2013)

bpegler said:


> Speaking of misinformation, let me remind members here that it is completely legal for US citizens to bring Cuban cigars into the US when returning from overseas, as long as they are for personal use. The first 100 cigars, or $800 in value are duty free. That is per person, so if your are traveling with your spouse, she can also bring 100 back duty free. You can legally bring more than 100 cigars back, but you will have to pay duty on them.
> 
> If you're going to quote "rules", please do so correctly.
> 
> Edit, this is for ANY international travel, not just Cuba. And you can do this every 30 days.


To be clear, I didn't quote any rules, nor would I claim to know them specifically, as I don't follow them and they seem to change quite regularly. But thank you for providing legitimate information, as it may be useful to some who intend to follow the exact letter of the law.

I'd also be willing to bet that the vast majority of cigars enjoyed by our community did not come to the US through the above described legal methods, so it's kind of beside the point, right?


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## triplezero24 (Apr 11, 2017)

Cigary said:


> Is this the same member who was in the "service" who was selling high end cigars ( supposedly) and taking the band's from them and putting them on mediocre cigars? He sent the authentic cigars to highly respected members as cover for his scam and did this for years amassing quite a sum until he got busted. I'm thinking his name was David and went by an ID I can't remember but some scams can be very elaborate and last for quite awhile in some instances. The Cigar Community can be a very easy target for scammers because of the inherent generosity of the people....this is one reason I get so pissed at "some" who display these same tendencies of trying to scam others by using the very same tactics that I've seen too many times...and I know you've seen them, too. It's a 2 edged sword when some come in here to do harm and hide behind their craft of grooming members that have no clue what's going on. Another reason why we need veteran Members who can spot the scammers early.


I believe you're referring to smokinj. I was one of the "respected" members he sent legit stuff to. Quite a racket he was running back in the day.


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## GOT14U (May 12, 2017)

I've drivin over the speed limit once.....but I live life on the jagged edge! 

Rules are rules, some we break some we don't. It's a personal opinion and if you can sleep like a baby at night. However if you get caught or called out for breaking the rules then it's on you....no whining allowed. Just my .02


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ranger0282 (Mar 12, 2016)

Sean...It's just my opinion but I think you are comparing Apples to Oranges. You are saying for instances since we drive 60 in a 55MPH zone and are not following that rule....no rule should be followed. Or we use a different Yahoo name other than our own, it's understandable to circumvent another rule such as "No Tobacco" on Ebay. Ebay is a company trying to regulate and protect it's customers and it's sellers by posting rules. Those rules, how unfair others may feel they are, are rules that Ebay has set in place for everyone's protection. People with 100% rating shouldn't have the right to do whatever they feel like doing. Bernie Madoff had a fairly good rating until the FBI knocked on his door. To include this story I have heard about with the SmokingJ member which I would dearly LOVE to hear the rest of that story! It;s not that I am nosy but curious as to how and what he was doing so I could educate myself. I am probably in the top 3 of the members here that buy off the WTS section.. 

SO.... If everyone starts disobeying all rules because we feel as if we aren't doing any wrong, we will skip by knocking on Anarchy's door and go straight to it's living room and watching it's TV and drinking it's beer. ( friendly sarcasm )


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## Cigary (Oct 19, 2007)

triplezero24 said:


> I believe you're referring to smokinj. I was one of the "respected" members he sent legit stuff to. Quite a racket he was running back in the day.


Smokinj isn't the member I was talking about but yes...that toad copied the scam that the other guy David was doing about 8 years ago. Me another Club Stogie Member busted him but we took a ton of flack from a lot of membership who vouched for him....only because he recruited them by sending a lot of expensive cigars for free to them. It took almost a year before a ton of people found out the truth only because David told his clientelle to sit on them for at least 8 months before smoking them. Some smoked them early and found out they were fake Opus cigars and such and then then $hitstorm began.


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## LeatherNeck (Feb 8, 2017)

^ Sounds like an upstanding guy. SMH


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## Bigjohn (Apr 6, 2017)

This is an interesting discussion and a couple of different trains of thought. We are all guilty of breaking the rules and bending the law at times. Personally, when I do it, I don't justify it by saying "other people break other rules so it must be OK for me to break this one". I make a decision and accept possible consequences. One of the consequences to bending the rules on eBay are getting listings flagged and that's the bottom line.

If I choose to go over the speed limit and get pulled over, I don't tell the cop that it's hypocritical of him to write me a ticket as he must be guilty of breaking other rules himself. I chose to break a rule, put my big boy pants on and accepted the consequences. 

I was always taught that two wrongs don't make a right. I think this is all some of the members are saying. 

As for selling cigars on eBay, there is a reason it's not allowed. Tobacco is a controlled substance, regulated by law. EBay is only doing what they have to. I know that my kid is not able to go buy tobacco from major online vendors like CI, JR, CP etc. because they do a good job with age verification. I don't want my kid to be able to buy tobacco from eBay. I bet your listing doesn't state anywhere that you must be over 18 years old to purchase this product. Granted, theoretically, a 14-year-old can create an account here on puff and buy something from the marketplace here. In which case, they would knowingly be be breaking the law and would have to lie when asked about their age when creating an account. I would feel a little more comfortable about you selling cigars on eBay if I knew that you were taking some sort of measures when it comes to potential sales to minors.


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## blackrabbit (Jan 29, 2017)

Some rules are very important to follow and some are made to be broken. Most important is empathy and integrity in your actions. Just my humble opinion.


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## GOT14U (May 12, 2017)

blackrabbit said:


> Some rules are very important to follow and some are made to be broken. Most important is empathy and integrity in your actions. Just my humble opinion.


Perfect!

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## awk6898 (Apr 1, 2017)

#muhroads









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## Westside Threat (Oct 25, 2016)

People are upset they can no longer do illegal activity on Ebay because somebody flagged it was illegal. Go figure


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## TCstr8 (Mar 30, 2016)

Westside Threat said:


> People are upset they can no longer do illegal activity on Ebay because somebody flagged it was illegal. Go figure


Illegal?

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## Del Fuego (Mar 29, 2017)

TCstr8 said:


> Illegal?
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


It's illegal. Tobacco sales are regulated. You can read a little about it in the Ebay tobacco policy.


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## TCstr8 (Mar 30, 2016)

Del Fuego said:


> It's illegal. Tobacco sales are regulated. You can read a little about it in the Ebay tobacco policy.


Revisiting what has already been discussed, it's as illegal as going 1 mile over the speed limit. Granted selling CCs or in bulk (akin to a retailer) would be a different story.

At the end of the day, something like selling tobacco without a license, if done on a very small scale isn't going to draw the attention of anyone that enforces the law. I work for a mortgage company, a very small one, and I am constantly reading stories of the CFPB fining companies and their employees. If I didn't read those stories, I'd have no idea they existed, because at the end of the day, they don't care about the small guy. They want the big fish with the deep pockets.

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## SeanTheEvans (Dec 13, 2013)

@Bigjohn,
I really want to be taking all of these bets. 2nd time this thread the person saying they would bet was dead wrong. 
I used to list cigars under the same principle as "collectible tobacco", which also had rules that certain guidelines had to be followed within the listing. No mention of tobacco, must have the person be 21, I believe, could be 18 or older, must state that they weren't for smoking but for "collecting", etc etc etc. :wink2:

But you are right about eBay not caring. They are just protecting themselves from liability by saying "don't do it". They don't mind reaping their profits off $100+ auctions, I'll tell you that much. They look the other way unless..... wait for it.... the listing gets Reported!

And my idea isn't really so much "break one rule, break them all", but more stating that it's quite hypocritical to be on a forum trading cigars, but then go to another trading forum where you've appointed yourself police (because you're mad about your friend being ripped off) and report anyone who isn't following a particular rule you want to be a stickler about... well that seems like bad sportsmanship in my book.

If eBay wants to send me a letter or get mad about the things I do on their site, that's one thing. But for some guy with a vendetta to go around picking on everyone who looks anything like the guy who ripped off his buddy and by doing such is limiting the abilities for others strangers to acquire cigars around the country, well that just seems wrong.

Or I guess it's only okay to trade cigars on Puff, but not eBay or CL? I don't see why when it comes down to due diligence on buyer & seller. I also don't know why it's anyone's business besides buyer & seller when it comes down to these transactions. The self-appointed hall monitor is only doing what they are doing out of some strange sense of vengeance, as they weren't doing it before the person they knew was harmed. Therefore it wasn't over some grand principle.

It's only out of sheer comedy that this same individual is currently asking to be exempt from rules that were put in place to prevent scammers...>

But if such examples are apples to oranges - where do oranges become apples? We don't all follow rules about obtaining CCs, but we want to be sticklers about selling Cigars online? But not from the WTS here on Puff; just from eBay, or heaven-forbid CL (where you meet the person face-to-face and can see goods prior to purchase)? By indiscriminately flagging everyone, aren't you putting the guys with real sales out of the game while those selling fakes don't mind just popping up new accounts to continue scamming? How does that help the marketplace? You know you're not stopping everyone from selling cigars on eBay.... so who are you stopping? The legit folks. Good job!:vs_laugh:

Where is the line? Or are we just really protective over the 'Bay right now because we're actually worried about their rights being infringed? Don't think the company can handle themselves without people flagging things out of spite? Again, I'll say that this isn't about flagging a Fohiba for auction, but simply reporting anyone selling cigars through that avenue. That's what made it weak shizz IMO, and why I'll stand by my opinion that it was indeed, a D move, reactionary and without real consideration for anyone's satisfaction besides their own. Trust who you want, but at least allow others to make their own decisions. If you're going to hide behind the letter of the law, and obeying the rules - at least try to do so yourself first, and please explain the reason you feel that it's okay to break the law in some forums, but not others, or in some manners/aspects, but not others. We're not talking Jaywalking vs Murder here people, let's not play dumb about that aspect.



Westside Threat said:


> People are upset they can no longer do illegal activity on Ebay because somebody flagged it was illegal. Go figure


Such an in-depth analysis... point well taken, really added to the discussion :serious:The world of black and white isn't very colorful I'm guessing.
@Del Fuego - I like how you come back to chime in on the conversation, but don't address any of the many valid points brought up. Particularly about myself and some of the accusations you made. :vs_unimpressed:


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## Bigjohn (Apr 6, 2017)

I am certainly not looking to pick a fight and understand where you are coming from. Your points make sense and might be right, they just don't align with my own values and core beliefs, which is fine. If eBay restricts sales in that category to over 18/21, that's great news. The reason it seems apples and oranges is because trading on Puff feels like dealing with friends. Selling on eBay is a free-for-all. Lots grey areas for sure and multiple ways one can deal with that. It certainly seems like you really believe in your justification of your actions and your heart is in the right place, which is better that knowing than you are doing something wrong knowingly and not caring. Looking at the comments in thread, it doesn't seem like the majority will get on that same train of thought though. Overall, getting flagged doing what you do is a nature of the beast (I get my own perfectly legitimate CL ads flagged every now and again). 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SeanTheEvans (Dec 13, 2013)

I'm not looking to pick a fight with anyone, so I'm glad you feel the same :yo:
I was simply responding to


Bigjohn said:


> I don't want my kid to be able to buy tobacco from eBay. I bet your listing doesn't state anywhere that you must be over 18 years old to purchase this product. Granted, theoretically, a 14-year-old can create an account here on puff and buy something from the marketplace here. In which case, they would knowingly be be breaking the law and would have to lie when asked about their age when creating an account. I would feel a little more comfortable about you selling cigars on eBay if I knew that you were taking some sort of measures when it comes to potential sales to minors.


and assuaging your fears, as I did have the disclaimer, so in theory, it's the same exact principle as Puff sales, since the buyer would have to be lying in order to make the purchase on their end. Just like with Puff & WTS here, there's no way of absolutely knowing who is or isn't really over 18, nor is there a way to enforce it. I guess that's why I'm not seeing what the big diff is, or why one is correct, and another is not, particularly when both are likely wrong in the eyes of the actual law.

I don't even mind others having a different opinion, but it would be nice if I could understand the WHY of someone believing that breaking a law one place is okay, but not another, particularly when the original cigar acquisition (CC) was most likely illegal to begin with. Where does this morality jump in? I'm not here to argue as much as I'm trying to hear a theory or moral framework here that makes some sense.

Like, stop me when this becomes a bad thing....

Vendors in foreign countries buy CC to knowingly ship to Americans
Americans buy CC online
American receives/smokes CCs recieved
American smokes CCs with a friend in their local community
American sells CCs to a friend in their local community, without a tobacco license
American trades/sells CC on Puff with other Americans, without a tobacco license
American trades/sells CC on Craigslist with another American in their local community, without a tobacco license
American trades/sells CC through WTS on Puff to Canadian who doesn't pay import duties
American trades/sells CC through WTS on Puff to American in Texas, who doesn't pay state taxes on the tobacco
American trades/sells CC through eBay to same guy in Texas, who doesn't pay state taxes on the tobacco

At what point, if selling through eBay is wrong, does this whole process become wrong in one's eyes? And why did you pick that particular point to judge it as no longer "okay"? At which point would you actively pursue stopping someone from doing these things, particularly if you weren't involved in either side of the transaction?

If the thought is that eBay is bad because it breaks their particular rules... then I'd wonder why eBay rules are more important than US law?

If the thought is that you personally don't care, but it's their business if they wanna report stuff to eBay on their own time... then I'd wonder if you would feel the same if this person were reporting Puff members for tobacco dealings, or calling customs about those who post in the "what did you buy recently" thread?

My point is, if someone is selling bad tomatoes, report them. Feel free to go as far as you want to make the situation stop.
But just because one guy sold bad tomatoes, it doesn't mean that you should go around trying to stop anyone who is selling tomatoes. 
If you bought bad tomatoes in a marketplace, that doesn't mean that everyone selling tomatoes there is selling bad tomatoes.
Trying to stop everyone from selling any tomatoes is not going to improve the safety and positive transaction percentage within the overall tomato marketplace, it will unfairly hurt those who are trying to honestly get tomatoes to those who wish to eat them, and assist those who had no interest in selling real/quality tomatoes anyway.


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## bpegler (Mar 30, 2006)




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## jc389 (Jun 24, 2017)

It so much more simple that tomatoes.... Puff allows it... Ebay doesn't.

Colorado allows marijuana... Nebraska doesn't. So dont be upset when you get in trouble for smoking in Nebraska on your way from Colorado. There is no justification that will make it ok.


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## Westside Threat (Oct 25, 2016)

We get it, someone is stepping on your profits and you are upset about it. You don't need to try and justify it any further.


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## csk415 (Sep 6, 2016)

Its pretty obvious that the two sides will never see the same light. Surprised Facebook wasn't brought up.


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## SeanTheEvans (Dec 13, 2013)

jc389 said:


> It so much more simple that tomatoes.... Puff allows it... Ebay doesn't.
> 
> Colorado allows marijuana... Nebraska doesn't. So dont be upset when you get in trouble for smoking in Nebraska on your way from Colorado. There is no justification that will make it ok.


But on that basis, it's totally cool to report anyone on Puff that has a CC, since most are obtained illegally, correct? Is nobody seeing how direct this comparison is? We're upholding the individual rules of Puff & eBay, but not the country we live in?
Do you use PP for transactions on Puff? Because that's against THEIR terms... so again, where is that line drawn and why?



Westside Threat said:


> We get it, someone is stepping on your profits and you are upset about it. You don't need to try and justify it any further.


Another simplistic answer from a simplistic mind where the world is a simple place. I'm losing no great amount of money because I don't sell cigars on eBay anymore. I make thousands of sales monthly that are non-cigar related.

But now there's one less viable solution for folks looking to acquire cigars from a trustworthy source. To think it all came from the spite of one person who got hood-winked, that's the nuance of the situation.

I guess it's impossible to think that wanting to get cigars to lovers of the hobby who don't know how to acquire them otherwise is a real crime. For all the sharing and brotherly love on this forum, I'm kinda surprised this isn't understood. I've literally made friends through messaging some of those who bought cigars off me through eBay, folks thankful to find something not available in their area, *the same types of stories I hear from new guys on here*. Eventually we took our business off eBay and just like here, I let them know when I have cigars available and they pick up at-will (breaking another eBay rule...) I guess shame on them for not finding Puff and trying to satisfy their urge to dig deeper into this hobby we all share through a means they ARE familiar with, eBay. And shame on me for offering fair deals to folks who are seeking to expand their experiences with cigars.

You wanna rag on me, but I still don't see answers to any of my questions nor defense for these positions. It looks sad from my perspective. Someone gives thoughtful responses and answers on a discussion forum, but taunts, unfounded accusations, and snappy retorts are all that are offered back. I expected a bit more :frown2:So much instant judgement from BOTL...


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## jc389 (Jun 24, 2017)

SeanTheEvans said:


> But on that basis, it's totally cool to report anyone on Puff that has a CC, since most are obtained illegally, correct? Is nobody seeing how direct this comparison is? We're upholding the individual rules of Puff & eBay, but not the country we live in?


I think thats making it simplistic in assuming that CC are obtained illegally. Its perfectly legal to possess as many CC as you could possibly want. As a retailer, I can possess them, I just cant sell them. Thats the only part thats illegal. Retailers cannot sell them no matter what unless they are pre-embargo. An individual that sells them can do so as personal property but still must obey by the legal age requirements or risk getting in trouble. Personally I am not sure the risk of selling to a minor is worth it... The last thing I want is time in county with someone trying to adjust my ring gauge! :surprise:


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## ADRUNKK (Aug 16, 2016)

jc389 said:


> I think thats making it simplistic in assuming that CC are obtained illegally. Its perfectly legal to possess as many CC as you could possibly want. As a retailer, I can possess them, I just cant sell them. Thats the only part thats illegal. Retailers cannot sell them no matter what unless they are pre-embargo. An individual that sells them can do so as personal property but still must obey by the legal age requirements or risk getting in trouble. Personally I am not sure the risk of selling to a minor is worth it... The last thing I want is time in county with someone trying to adjust my ring gauge! :surprise:


I would assume most are obtained illegally. Just look at the customs letter thread and tell me that most people on this site get them through legal means. A lot of hypocrisy going on.


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## UBC03 (Nov 18, 2015)

My theory in this is that I don't buy tobacco on eBay. However, I can see me buying a "collector" tin of Penzance for myself this Christmas. 

I've lived by a saying my whole life.." If it doesn't $hit in my front yard it's none of my business."

So if it doesn't personally affect me, live and let live. 

I grew up in bookie joints. I know plenty of people that made a living skirting the rules. If they got pinched, they took their punishment like a man. They never screwed anyone over. They were stand up guys.

As for the guys selling smokes on eBay. You get caught, there's consequences. You're a grown @ss man, you know the deal. That goes for buyers and sellers..

As far as being 18. What's to stop anyone from going on CI and putting in a different age. It's all based on the honor system.




Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk


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## UBC03 (Nov 18, 2015)

ADRUNKK said:


> I would assume most are obtained illegally. Just look at the customs letter thread and tell me that most people on this site get them through legal means. A lot of hypocrisy going on.


I do... I drive to Cuba every other month or so

Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk


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## Cigary (Oct 19, 2007)

SeanTheEvans said:


> But on that basis, it's totally cool to report anyone on Puff that has a CC, since most are obtained illegally, correct? Is nobody seeing how direct this comparison is? We're upholding the individual rules of Puff & eBay, but not the country we live in?
> Do you use PP for transactions on Puff? Because that's against THEIR terms... so again, where is that line drawn and why?
> 
> Another simplistic answer from a simplistic mind where the world is a simple place. I'm losing no great amount of money because I don't sell cigars on eBay anymore. I make thousands of sales monthly that are non-cigar related.
> ...


You've made your point more than once....now you're just beating a dead horse and coming very close to trolling. I have no issue with you wanting to make a point but you've done so and are circling the drain here with posts and leaning ever so closely to instigating a more than respectful debate. You've had more posts on this about your opinion....that's fine...but at some point you need to understand that pushing your agenda is not in the interests of what this Forum is about. Your points are well taken....you've stated them so instead of agitating the subject matter even further this is the last warning I'm giving on it. Contentiousness is not the goal here....it's supposed to be a discussion where points are given w/o it becoming personal and some of the phrasing in your posts are counter productive and you're taking jabs under the guise of you saying you're giving thoughtful responses....let's respond to that notion....you're not. I've seen enough jabs, responses, hidden innuendo and downright personal digs....I'm tired of it and tired of the "thoughtful" prose of using words to hide the real meaning of thought. If you disagree with me....PM me about it and we can discuss it w/o it leeching back into the thread. There has been enough discussion about it and from the looks of things it's not being productive anymore....it's just becoming a sore from being scratched so many times.:serious:


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