# SCHIP Tobacco Legislation



## Pablo

I have received the below information from numerous sources over the last few days. Xikar, Camacho, Perelman and others are sending it out. This is important to take action on if you are a cigar smoker. I have posted some of the information below.

------------------------------------------------------------

Currently before the United States Senate is a proposal to fund health insurance on the backs of tobacco products to the tune of $35 billion (that's Billion with a B). Most egregious is the proposed tax rate on cigars of 53.1%, including a breathtaking 20,400% increase in the cap. This would make handmade cigars - a true mom-and-pop industry, a product enjoyed by choice an average 3 times per week - the single largest excise taxed item in the entire Internal Revenue Code....by a long shot.
Just imagine a $10 dollar tax, PER CIGAR!!!


This piece of legislation is called SCHIP (State Childrens Health Insurance Plan). Tonight this bill is being marked up in the Senate Finance Committee and is expected to come to the Senate floor for a vote as early as end of week. We urge you to call both of your U.S. Senators today and express your opposition to funding "SCHIP legislation" with punitive cigar taxes. 

-----------------------------------------------

List of Senators phone numbers is in the Legislation Forum.


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## tzaddi

Fired off a letter to the "Commander and Chief" and to my 2 Senators the other day and I have gotten confirmation back from both Senators.

Here is the place you want to go...
http://rtda.org/legislation.html

Easy as pie.

I have also talked with 2 vendors in town and neither where aware of the situation, now they are. This type of mobilization can be very effective.

The very threat of a "floor tax" on all standing inventory as of January, 1, 2008 (as I understand it) would trigger an "End of the Year Sale" the likes we have never seen. Although it sounds like a consumer's dream it would have devastating consequences to the industry.

Click the link above and let them know what is what.

-Richard


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## GeneralDisorder

Someone explain this to me:

The legislation seeks a *$35 to $50 Billion* increase for the SCHIP.

There are 22 billion packs of cigarettes sold annually, and at a $0.61 a pack tax hike that's about *$13.42 Billion* in additional revenue. Due to the addictive nature of cigarettes I would be willing to bet the market will bear this.

So by that reasoning they need an additional *$21.5 Billion *from the rest of the sources in the legislation in order to meet their minimum goal. How can the measly 5.4 billion annual cigar sales possibly come close to providing that added revenue? That's an average of *$3.98 for every cigar sold in america* - including the MAJORITY of cigar sales which are swisher sweets, black & mild's, and the other cheap drugstore cigars - driving the prices of the decent stuff even higher to compensate for their comparitively small tax value.

There's no way the market will bear that kind of taxation. Most cigar smokers will simply quit buying them or will turn to illegal importation from Canada or elsewhere. You'll see cigar leaf blended pipe tobacco - and an entire industry will sping up around home rolling - and other ways around the taxation - they simply will not get the money they desire because they will run the industry out of business.

To quote a famous poker player:

"You can shear a sheep many times; you can skin it only once." -- Amarillo Slim

Seems to me they are about to skin the sheep.

*edit* It really looks, based on my limited readings, that this won't withstand a veto. The Bush administration has good reasons to veto this having nothing at all to do with cigars. And they have no reason to care about what people think of them for vetoing a "children's health plan" (such as it is :al)

Rick


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## ColdCuts

tzaddi said:


> Fired off a letter to the "Commander and Chief" and to my 2 Senators the other day and I have gotten confirmation back from both Senators.
> 
> Here is the place you want to go...
> http://rtda.org/legislation.html
> 
> Easy as pie.
> 
> I have also talked with 2 vendors in town and neither where aware of the situation, now they are. This type of mobilization can be very effective.
> 
> The very threat of a "floor tax" on all standing inventory as of January, 1, 2008 (as I understand it) would trigger an "End of the Year Sale" the likes we have never seen. Although it sounds like a consumer's dream it would have devastating consequences to the industry.
> 
> Click the link above and let them know what is what.
> 
> -Richard


Nice post Richard. I did the same. I also sent email via the RTDA website to my cigar and pipe smoking friends. I wish there was more we could do. I think everybody at CS--and I mean _everybody_--ought to send email or call. It's up to us, isn't it? No one else is going to go out of their way for cigar smokers, and the RTDA website really couldn't make sending a few emails any easier. A few clicks, and you're done.

Also, it kinda blows my mind that you talked to local vendors who knew nothing about it! Gorillas! Leave no stone unturned! Make sure everyone who should know, does know!


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## BlueHavanaII

Every reference to the SCHIP is out of context, so I did some research and found the source docs.

Description of the Revenue Provisions for Markup of the State Children's Health Insurance Program

Estimated Revenue Effects of the Revenue Provisions for Markup of the State Children's Health Insurance Program

I note no inaccuracies with what the RTDA and others have said, but it was interesting to read the source. What REALLY irritates me is that the Senate Finance Committee is proposing SCHIP be 100% financed by smokers!

Also, if I read right, the subcommittee on taxation is responsible for this proposal. Let's get these members OUT OF OFFICE!

SUBCOMMITTEE ON TAXATION AND IRS OVERSIGHT AND LONG-TERM GROWTH
Kent Conrad, ND, Chairman
Jon Kyl, AZ, Ranking Member

Democrats 
Max Baucus, MT
Ron Wyden, OR
Maria Cantwell, WA
Charles E. Schumer, NY
Debbie Stabenow, MI
Ken Salazar, CO

Republicans 
Trent Lott, MS
Pat Roberts, KS
Olympia J. Snowe, ME 
Mike Crapo, ID
Orrin G. Hatch, UT


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## stig

How can you have a floor stock tax on already existing inventory? That's dual taxation isn't it? How can the government tax you again on something that you alread have in your posession. How is this possibly legal?

What if we were all to just refuse to pay the tax and start a civil suit against congress and the lawmakers? Politicians in office are supposed to make decisions for the good of everyone but I am not seeing that lately at all. I also don't understand why we have sales tax for food, clothing, household items etc. but other items such as gas and tobacco are singled out by the government for a "special" tax. It doesn't seem fair to honest workers in those industries.


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## yayson

This must be coming well and truly to a head as the RTDA website is entirely unreachable.

:ss:tu


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## CigarGal

Okay-I did my civic duty....emailed state and fed reps...This is one more absurd way to fund health...and put down smokers. Grrr-it makes me mad:c


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## BlueHavanaII

The senate has posted the opening statements from the Executive Session to Consider the "Children's Health Insurance Program (CHIP) Reauthorization Act of 2007" from July 19, 2007 at 9:00 a.m. in 215 Dirksen Senate Office Building.

Member Statements: 
Max Baucus, MT 
Charles Grassley, IA

Senator Baucus stated: "_And we pay for what we do. When Congress created CHIP in 1997, we paid for it with a cigarette tax. We continue that funding source. We increase the Federal tax on cigarettes by 61 cents. And we make proportional increases for other tobacco products. Increasing the cigarette tax will discourage smoking, particularly among teens. And that
will be good for kids, too._

Senator Grassley did not address funding in his statement.
*
I cannot see how the current cap of five cents being changed to ten dollars can be called a "proportional increase".*


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## burninator

What an intellectually vapid argument. If the aim is to discourage smoking, then the funding will continue to fall short. If "the health of the children" is really the important issue here, why are they funding it with money that they admittedly hope will decrease?


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## garilla

GeneralDisorder said:


> Someone explain this to me:
> 
> The legislation seeks a *$35 to $50 Billion* increase for the SCHIP.
> 
> There are 22 billion packs of cigarettes sold annually, and at a $0.61 a pack tax hike that's about *$13.42 Billion* in additional revenue. Due to the addictive nature of cigarettes I would be willing to bet the market will bear this.
> 
> Rick


I'm also thinking that due to the addictive nature of alcohol, a $1 per 750ml bottle tax on hard liquor would more than cover the funds needed. Those who purchase hard liquor can afford a reasonable tax, and there are far more people consuming alcohol that can bear a reasonable increase that there are cigar smokers.

- Garilla


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## 12stones

I've notified my Senators and here are the two responses I got:

http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1062524&postcount=104
http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1062983&postcount=108

One favorable and one not. Needless to say, I emailed Kay Bailey Hutchison back and told her that not only would I not be voting for her in the future, but would work to see she didn't get re-elected.


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## CueTheMusic

Well, I emailed my senators in Iowa. I even emailed Chuck Grassley after I read the links in BlueHavanaII's post. 

CAO is sending out an email encouraging contacting your senators now as well. Hopefully they are getting a few people to act.


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## croatan

12stones said:


> I've notified my Senators and here are the two responses I got:
> 
> http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1062524&postcount=104
> http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1062983&postcount=108
> 
> One favorable and one not. Needless to say, I emailed Kay Bailey Hutchison back and told her that not only would I not be voting for her in the future, but would work to see she didn't get re-elected.


I'm waiting for her moronic canned response so that I can do the same.


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## doctorcue

Does anyone know when this bill will be brought up for vote. I know it was supposed to be today but I have yet to see anything.

Hopefully Gee-Dub does veto it if it gets passed.


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## Mindflux

doctorcue said:


> Does anyone know when this bill will be brought up for vote. I know it was supposed to be today but I have yet to see anything.
> 
> Hopefully Gee-Dub does veto it if it gets passed.


I thought I saw something about a 17-4 vote in favor on another board earlier.


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## Mindflux

Senate panel OKs child health bill

By KEVIN FREKING, Associated Press Writer

ASHINGTON - A Senate committee brushed aside threats of a veto from President Bush in overwhelmingly approving on Thursday a $35 billion expansion of a children's health insurance program.

ADVERTISEMENT

The program subsidizes the cost of insurance for children and some adults with incomes too high for Medicaid but not high enough to afford private insurance.

A majority of Republicans on the Senate Finance Committee joined all of the committee's Democrats in approving legislation to reauthorize the State Children's Health Insurance Program. The vote was 17-4.

The committee's chairman, Sen. Max Baucus, D-Mont., said the vote was a strong statement that lawmakers want to strengthen the program.

"Millions of children have no health insurance," Baucus said. "There are more kids without health insurance than there are kids in the first and second grades. Americans overwhelmingly support getting kids covered."

The additional funding for the program under the Senate proposal would bring total funding for SCHIP to $60 billion, which is double what the administration has proposed. The Senate bill pays for the expansion by increasing tobacco taxes. The tax on a pack of cigarettes would increase by 61 cents. Taxes on other cigars and chewing tobacco would also jump.


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## Glacierman

This from Drew Newman of J. C. Newman (Cuesta Rey, Diamond Crown, La Unica, etc.), posted previously at CF (regrettably, the links did not copy):

===================
*The Senate Finance Committee's review and mark-up of the S-Chip Bill was rescheduled to today at 9:00am from Tuesday, due to the extended Iraq War Debate.

We still have a long way to go to defeat this enormous tax increase, but a significant amount of progress has been made in the last few days.

As many have discovered from e-mailing their Senators, few on Capitol Hill are aware of the S-Chip bill's 20,000 percent cigar tax increase. Many political leaders seem to only know about the 220% increase in cigarette taxes.

However, word is finally starting to spread about the dramatic, disproportionate cigar tax increase:

# On Tuesday, Florida's St. Petersburg Times published an article that was posted to the Drudge Report.
# Today, there is an article in the Wall Street Journal.
# Rush Limbaugh, a long-time family and industry friend, discussed it on Wednesday and Thursday.
# A handful of TV stations have reported the story: NBC Orlando, NBC Chattanooga, ABC Chicago.
# A number of blogs have published stories (1, 2, 3, 4, 5).
# CNN is scheduled to film a story in Tampa about it tomorrow.

While Florida Senator Mel Martinez's staff's responses to constituent e-mails suggest that he is unaware of the grossly disproportionate cigar tax increase, his staff is now aware of the situation and have pledged their support. Additionally, President Bush is threatening to veto this legislation, although not because of the cigar tax.

In addition to continuing to contact Senators, there are other concrete steps that can help increase awareness of this grossly unfair tax increase: 1) Write letters to the editor of your local or national newspapers and TV stations responding to their S-Chip articles, 2) Send the 20,000% cigar tax increase articles to Internet blogs, and 3) e-mail influential newsmakers (like Bill O'Reilly) and tell them how this ridiculous tax increase upsets you.

In 10 years, I have never seen the cigar industry so unified over a single issue, and while progress is being made, a lot of work still is needed in order to ensure that this outrageous tax increase is defeated.

On behalf of the entire cigar industry, I gratefully thank you, our consumers and friends, for your support,

Sincerely,
Drew Newman *


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## BlueHavanaII

Mindflux said:


> Senate panel OKs child health bill
> 
> By KEVIN FREKING, Associated Press Writer
> 
> ASHINGTON - A Senate committee brushed aside threats of a veto from President Bush in overwhelmingly approving on Thursday a $35 billion expansion of a children's health insurance program.
> 
> ADVERTISEMENT
> 
> The program subsidizes the cost of insurance for children and some adults with incomes too high for Medicaid but not high enough to afford private insurance.
> 
> A majority of Republicans on the Senate Finance Committee joined all of the committee's Democrats in approving legislation to reauthorize the State Children's Health Insurance Program. The vote was 17-4.
> 
> The committee's chairman, Sen. Max Baucus, D-Mont., said the vote was a strong statement that lawmakers want to strengthen the program.
> 
> "Millions of children have no health insurance," Baucus said. "There are more kids without health insurance than there are kids in the first and second grades. Americans overwhelmingly support getting kids covered."
> 
> The additional funding for the program under the Senate proposal would bring total funding for SCHIP to $60 billion, which is double what the administration has proposed. The Senate bill pays for the expansion by increasing tobacco taxes. The tax on a pack of cigarettes would increase by 61 cents. Taxes on other cigars and chewing tobacco would also jump.


Here's the full text from the senate subcommittee:

Finance Committee Approves Children's Health Insurance Program Reauthorization Act

_"This investment in the Children's Health Insurance Program is paid for with a 61 cent Federal tax on cigarettes, with proportional increases for other tobacco products."_
*
How is a 20,000% tax increase on cigars "proportional"???*


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## cman78

Emails sent two days ago but Claire and Kit don't seem to care. Gonna try phone calls next. I have told everyone I know and most are just like Huh well what can ya do. It is so sad that people don't even see their freedoms being stolen from them.


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## nozero

I used the webforms here http://cornyn.senate.gov/contact/index.html and here http://hutchison.senate.gov/contact.html to submit my comments against this tax legislation. When validating, I thought this was a strange word for them to use as one of the options. Check out the 4th word down in the image.


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## floydpink

I emailed Bill O'Reilley and told him I would stop watching him on The Factor and move over to Fox if he didn't step in. I also mentioned I was shocked to see Trent Lott's name on the list as I was under the impression he was some kinda smoker.

Hillary????


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## inept

Fellas, perhaps you can find an article that is well-worded, cigar-oriented and largely devoid of political bias for posting on Digg (www.digg.com). Then the community (us) can come together and Digg it up. Stories appearing on Digg's front page can get tens or hundreds of thousands or even millions of views. So high is the traffic on Dugg stories that inferior HTTP servers cannot handle the load. The only caveat is that the Digg community tends to be anti-establishment and very skeptical of political partisanship so an article that's clearly politically biased (especially in favor of Republican politics) is a bad idea. One that focuses on egregious taxation and takes a more libertarian sort of view may be well received.

There are a lot of good things about SCHIP and the relevant stories currently appearing on Digg, though largely ignored, tend to focus only on the positive aspects of this proposed legislation (i.e. helping poor kids). There's room for a well-worded cigar-oriented story and CS alone has enough manpower to ensure that a chosen story is highly Dugg. If other BOTLs join, the story could get a lot of views.


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## Strangg1

This is getting absurd, it isn't "for the kids" or the "poor" as much as those addle brained fools on the hill would have you believe. States have expanded upon the intent of this law and bastardized it no end. And there are bills bein introduced to make it worse. I'm not the biggest fan of Rush Limbaugh, but he is sticking up for our rights in this instance, and has dug up some interesting information that has been posted elsewhere.

http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showthread.php?t=94725&highlight=rushlimbaugh

Checkitout, it's scary.

~S


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## jjirons69

tzaddi said:


> Fired off a letter to the "Commander and Chief" and to my 2 Senators the other day and I have gotten confirmation back from both Senators.
> 
> Here is the place you want to go...
> http://rtda.org/legislation.html
> 
> Easy as pie.
> 
> I have also talked with 2 vendors in town and neither where aware of the situation, now they are. This type of mobilization can be very effective.
> 
> The very threat of a "floor tax" on all standing inventory as of January, 1, 2008 (as I understand it) would trigger an "End of the Year Sale" the likes we have never seen. Although it sounds like a consumer's dream it would have devastating consequences to the industry.
> 
> Click the link above and let them know what is what.
> 
> -Richard


Thanks, Richard, for the link. I shot an email to both of our guys in hopes they listen. Being from a tobacco state and playing that card may help a little. I also hope they're both smokers :cb.

What a load of :BS to try to fund such a thing with tobacco money...


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## MeNimbus

They should just simply tax the cigarette companies and leave the cigar industry alone. The Bill is noble to offer Children healthcare, but not at the expense of cigar smokers. 

Or at least separate the Bill, one for Children Healthcare and another for cigarette and cigar tax (cigar tax should have special consideration).


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## Cnote

inept said:


> Fellas, perhaps you can find an article that is well-worded, cigar-oriented and largely devoid of political bias for posting on Digg (www.digg.com). Then the community (us) can come together and Digg it up. Stories appearing on Digg's front page can get tens or hundreds of thousands or even millions of views. So high is the traffic on Dugg stories that inferior HTTP servers cannot handle the load. The only caveat is that the Digg community tends to be anti-establishment and very skeptical of political partisanship so an article that's clearly politically biased (especially in favor of Republican politics) is a bad idea. One that focuses on egregious taxation and takes a more libertarian sort of view may be well received.
> 
> There are a lot of good things about SCHIP and the relevant stories currently appearing on Digg, though largely ignored, tend to focus only on the positive aspects of this proposed legislation (i.e. helping poor kids). There's room for a well-worded cigar-oriented story and CS alone has enough manpower to ensure that a chosen story is highly Dugg. If other BOTLs join, the story could get a lot of views.


http://digg.com/politics/Democrat_Congress_proposes_20_000_increase_on_cigar_tax
Its only got a few diggs, but I agree that this would be a great way to raise awareness of this issue. The digg community generally opposes socialism and just about anything that comes out of washington, if it makes the front page it would probably get at least a few thousand phone calls going out to some senators.


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## sepia5

My letter to my local senators:

"Senators Martinez and Nelson:

Let me preface this communication by stating that if I receive what is apparently a canned form letter in return, you will have effectively lost my vote in all upcoming elections. 

I am writing to make you aware of a portion of the recently proposed S-CHIP legislation which would generate money for children's health care by taxing various tobacco products. Obviously, the main target of this proposed legislation is the cigarette industry. Given that industry's trade practices over the past 30+ years, and cigarettes' knack for cultivating citizens' addiction at alarmingly young ages, I certainly have no problem with paying for children’s' health care by taxing an industry which has done so much to destroy children’s well-being.

However, a portion of that bill will raise the federal tax on large cigars by over 20,000%! The cap on the tax per cigar would be increased from $.05 to a whopping $10.00! This would be by far and away the biggest tax increase on any product in the history of the United States, and would almost certainly decimate the industry, not just domestically, but world-wide. For example, it would increase the price of a $4.00 cigar to $13.05. By making it too expensive for most cigar consumers to support their passion, it would put thousands out business. The economies of developing nations that rely upon cigar production—such as Honduras, Nicaragua, and the Dominican Republic—will be hard hit as well.

Given the cigar heritage in both Tampa and Miami, it is unbelievable to me that you, as representatives of the people of Florida, would permit the decimation of an entire industry that has played such a prominent role in the development of our state. I was in Ybor City for lunch yesterday, and the mood was grave. To be sure, if this tax passes, local cigar shop owners all over the city will be forced to close their doors. Senator Martinez, given your Cuban ancestry, it is especially difficult for me to understand how you could vote for a bill that would effectively put so many Cuban expatriates and immigrants out of business.

Because the proposed tax on cigars is such a small part of this bill (cigar sales account for only about 5% of domestic tobacco sales), it is hard for me to believe that the revenue that would be generated from the increased cigar tax could not be raised elsewhere. I can even understand a proportional cigar tax increase, but 20,000% is unconscionable, dangerous, and just plain foolish. 

Thank you for your time, and for your reconsideration of this portion of the newly proposed S-CHIP bill."


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## CueTheMusic

That is a good letter, but your facts are a little off. A $4 cigar would not become $13.95. It would cost around $6.05. The tax is 53.13%, up to $10. Incrediby outrageous, but not an automatic $10 more per cigar. 

$4 -> $6.05
$5 -> $7.60
$8 -> $12.20
$15 -> $22.90
$20 -> $30.00

That is quite the price bump, and to put it in perspective look at what happens with 5 packs.

$3 per before becomes $4.52 each so the 5er goes from $15 to $22.
$5 per before becomes $7.60 each so the 5er goes from $25 to $38.
$10 per before becomes $15.25 each so the 5er goes from $50 to $76.25

Boxes of 20:
$5 per stick becomes $7.60 -> $100 becomes $152
$10 per stick becomes $15.25 -> $200 becomes $305
$20 per stick becomes $30.00 -> $400 becomes $600

Scary :hn :tg:c

(i realize the figures aren't exact and would fluctuate even more with state taxes taxing the extra federal tax, so they should be even higher than this.)


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## BlueHavanaII

*Keep your eye out for articles in you local newspaper and help to educate the writers!*

Excerpted from
Senate to open PeachCare funding debate
By BOB KEMPER
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Published on: 07/16/07

_...Moreover, the bill would get the necessary new funds from a tax increase on cigarettes, from the current 39 cents-a-pack to $1, that most Republicans and some Democrats say they'll resist..._

*I wrote Mr Kemper today:*

_I read your article in the AJC this morning and note that you cite an increase in the cigarette tax as funding.

Under the current proposal, the large cigar tax rate would increase 156.4% (from 20.719% to 53.13% of the manufacturer's selling price) and the current tax cap of around $0.05 per cigar would increase an astounding 20,413% to $10 per cigar. All large cigars would effectively be taxed at 53.13% of the manufacturer's selling price. In all of the Internal Revenue Code, no other product is subject to an excise tax that approaches this level. The little cigar tax would increase 2,635% - to $1,828 per 1,000 to $50 per 1,000. To compound the injury, a floor stocks tax would be assessed on all products in inventory.

In his statement, Senator Max Baucus (MT) stated: "When Congress created CHIP in 1997, we paid for it with a cigarette tax. We continue that funding source. We increase the Federal tax on cigarettes by 61 cents. And we make proportional increases for other tobacco products."

As an owner of a cigar shop and lounge in Alpharetta, GA (Blue Havana II Cigars & Gifts), I can not see how an increase of up to 20,000% is "proportional"_
*
and received the following response:*

_Mr. Luftman, 
Thank you for alerting me to that. I'll check into it. 
And thanks for reading and taking the time to write. 
Best, 
Bob
Bob Kemper
Washington Correspondent
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
o) 202-887-8380
e) [email protected]_


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## 12stones

It's imperative that everyone contact their Congressmen and Senators. This has made it out of the Finanace Committee.

http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showthread.php?t=94888


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## inept

Here's a pretty good article with a corresponding post on Digg: http://digg.com/offbeat_news/Federal_tax_on_each_cigar_could_rise_from_5_cents_to_10

It's got a little traction and with the help of the community this story could get a lot of eyes on it. Digg it!


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## jjirons69

Well, we have at least one on our side. :tu See below:

Dear  Mr. Johnson , 
Thank you for writing me to express your opposition to raising the federal  tobacco  tax in order to fund the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP). I appreciate hearing from you on this important issue. 

 As you may know, Senator Gordon Smith of  Oregon  offered an amendment to the 2008 Senate Budget Resolution that would permit an increase in the federal  tobacco  tax in order to pay for the reauthorization of SCHIP. Though Senator Smith's amendment passed by a vote of 59-40 on March 23, 2007, I voted against this amendment.

 While I support a reauthorization of SCHIP that is consistent with the original intent of the law, I do not support raising federal  tobacco  taxes in order to expand the program. Congress's inability to be fiscally responsible and adhere to a budget should not be an excuse for raising taxes. It is critical for Congress to prioritize how federal taxpayer dollars should be spent so that individuals do not have to make further sacrifices for bad budget decisions.

 During my time in Congress, I have consistently fought to restrain spending and protect American taxpayers. As your Senator, you can be sure that I will oppose a raise in the federal  tobacco  tax in order to fund SCHIP. I will also continue to aggressively fight excessive spending, adhere to our budget, and bring fiscal responsibility back to our government.

Thanks again for taking the time to share your thoughts and concerns with me. Please do not hesitate to contact me again in the future about anything important to you or your family. It is an honor to serve you and the people of  South Carolina .

Sincerely,

Jim DeMint
United States Senator


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## sepia5

CueTheMusic said:


> That is a good letter, but your facts are a little off. A $4 cigar would not become $13.95. It would cost around $6.05. The tax is 53.13%, up to $10. Incrediby outrageous, but not an automatic $10 more per cigar.
> 
> $4 -> $6.05
> $5 -> $7.60
> $8 -> $12.20
> $15 -> $22.90
> $20 -> $30.00
> 
> That is quite the price bump, and to put it in perspective look at what happens with 5 packs.
> 
> $3 per before becomes $4.52 each so the 5er goes from $15 to $22.
> $5 per before becomes $7.60 each so the 5er goes from $25 to $38.
> $10 per before becomes $15.25 each so the 5er goes from $50 to $76.25
> 
> Boxes of 20:
> $5 per stick becomes $7.60 -> $100 becomes $152
> $10 per stick becomes $15.25 -> $200 becomes $305
> $20 per stick becomes $30.00 -> $400 becomes $600
> 
> Scary :hn :tg:c
> 
> (i realize the figures aren't exact and would fluctuate even more with state taxes taxing the extra federal tax, so they should be even higher than this.)


Maybe you're right, and I should have looked into the figures myself. However, I got this information from Altadis in a mass email it sent out today:

"The proposal would result in a dramatic increase in cigar prices in the U.S. and all cigar smokers would be affected. For example, a cigar that currently has a $4 selling price in an average tax state would sell for $13.05 after the proposed legislation."

Maybe the proponents of this legislation are not the only ones spreading misinformation?


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## jbo

Thanks to everyone for their insights and for making us all aware of this. For what it's worth, was at my B&M this morning. I asked the owner what he thought of it and he wasn't really up to speed on it. He did say, however, that he wasn't too worried about it because President Bush has promised to veto the bill.

My response was that vetoes can be overridden. Plus even if the veto was upheld, that will only be good until Jan. 2009 when a new president comes to office. However, I guess this falls under the category of not panicking before you have to. I've been a little freaked over all of this.


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## BlueHavanaII

jbo said:


> Thanks to everyone for their insights and for making us all aware of this. For what it's worth, was at my B&M this morning. I asked the owner what he thought of it and he wasn't really up to speed on it. He did say, however, that he wasn't too worried about it because President Bush has promised to veto the bill.
> 
> My response was that vetoes can be overridden. Plus even if the veto was upheld, that will only be good until Jan. 2009 when a new president comes to office. However, I guess this falls under the category of not panicking before you have to. I've been a little freaked over all of this.


Your B&M owner should be ashamed of himself. This is a critical issue for our industry and he should not only be up to speed, but he should be spreading the word!


----------



## cubop

jbo said:


> Thanks to everyone for their insights and for making us all aware of this. For what it's worth, was at my B&M this morning. I asked the owner what he thought of it and he wasn't really up to speed on it. He did say, however, that he wasn't too worried about it because President Bush has promised to veto the bill.
> 
> My response was that vetoes can be overridden. Plus even if the veto was upheld, that will only be good until Jan. 2009 when a new president comes to office. However, I guess this falls under the category of not panicking before you have to. I've been a little freaked over all of this.


I don't think we should panic but I think this comes under the heading of awareness. Now we know what some of these fools are capable of and how, as a minority, to be very vocal about it if this comes up again. The next President might be willing to sign such a bill so we have to try to stop it whenever the anti-tobacco faction tries their vote-getting tricks again.

What a world we live in, ant-tobacco, anti-free speech, anti-consumer, anti everything and a nation of busybodies trying to make everyone live by their rules.


----------



## sonick

I just found out that this bill allows for the definition of "child" age cutoff to be 25 years old. I also found out that the income cap for assistance by this bill is some ~$83,000 per year. 

So, if you're a married couple 25 or under, making $83,000 or less per year household, you could save some scratch by dropping your private insurance via work and saving that premium, and just going on the gov. ticket for free. 

This isn't for the children at all. This is a guise for the first covert step towards nationalized healthcare. This is way scarier than the cigar issue alone......


----------



## Alpedhuez55

sonick said:


> This isn't for the children at all. This is a guise for the first covert step towards nationalized healthcare. This is way scarier than the cigar issue alone......


It is all the typical political BS. Bush will be siding with "Big Tobacco" and not with the "Children" if he vetoes this.

A large increase will put a lot of small businesses out of business. The casual and many avid smokers will smoke a lot less. Ultimately it will be a decrease in revenues when sales drop off sharply.

Also I would follow up any email to a senator with either a call or a letter. I just got an email response this week from an email I sent to my old Setator Teddy Kennedy more than 7 months ago. Some senators are not very responsive to email, others are. Light up the the switchboards and they take notice. And let your cigarette smoking friends know about this too.


----------



## kas

sonick said:


> I just found out that this bill allows for the definition of "child" age cutoff to be 25 years old. I also found out that the income cap for assistance by this bill is some ~$83,000 per year.
> 
> So, if you're a married couple 25 or under, making $83,000 or less per year household, you could save some scratch by dropping your private insurance via work and saving that premium, and just going on the gov. ticket for free.
> 
> This isn't for the children at all. This is a guise for the first covert step towards nationalized healthcare. This is way scarier than the cigar issue alone......


This is actually inaccurate. The bill would phase out coverage for childless adults, which has been allowed in some cases through waivers granted states by the Bush Administration in recent years. Also, I think that $83k figure is for a family of 4 - not a couple with no kids. And you also have to live in a state that allows optional coverage above the poverty line, which is a state-by-state decision and not a national policy.


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## Thurm15

This is a quote taken from an article in the St Petersburg times dated 7/19:

*
"A $10 cap on a very expensive cigar would not be terribly onerous"*

- Max Baucus, Senator from Montana

What a Pompus Ass!


----------



## Mojo65

cubop said:


> _*I don't think we should panic*_ but I think this comes under the heading of awareness. Now we know what some of these fools are capable of and how, as a minority, to be very vocal about it if this comes up again. The next President might be willing to sign such a bill so we have to try to stop it whenever the anti-tobacco faction tries their vote-getting tricks again.
> 
> What a world we live in, ant-tobacco, anti-free speech, anti-consumer, anti everything and a nation of busybodies trying to make everyone live by their rules.


Panic no. But its time for another immigration stile citizens revolt! Swamp the phone banks, email, and fax machines! :u


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## No1der

I contacted my reps and contacted everyone I could think of to do likewise.

I'm no fan of Bush but at least this will get a veto. I understand fully that this issue will come up again and with the next administration things could change dramatically.

This whole thing just makes me sick. Oh well, I've done about as much as I can do at the moment so now I guess it's time to sit back and see what happens.


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## fordkustom

Tax increases are bad but this is rediculous! I think we need to encourage our senators to levy a new tax which will happen in a more reasonable fashion if we give them options rather than opinions they may respond in a more positive light. If cigarettes are going up $1.00 a pack lets ask the senators to increase tax on cigars $1.00 or two per box instead if per cigar. They may atleast consider an alternative if one is available. It seems that in all the letter responses i have read that all they are aware of is the cigarette side which is semi bearable where as our new tax burden wouldn't be.


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## qwerty1500

Wonder if all of this has gotten someone's attention ....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070720/us_nm/healthcare_insurers_usa_dc

Too little ... too late?


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## guy g

As some of you know, I started a thread about Colin Cowherd and stogies. It was suggested to email him and ask he address this on his show. Great idea.. I sent him a note and hopefully others will too. He is a BOTL and has a big audience.
I know some of you dont like Rush, but he and Colin and some others have large followings and can help.


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## burninator

Wouldn't it be a much better idea to place a heavy tax on Congressional stupidity? Sure, the tax base isn't terribly large, but those who take part would contribute often, and it would provide funding indefinitely.


----------



## MeNimbus

I received this email on Friday.

Urgent Notice to Cigar Lovers!

The U.S. Senate will very shortly vote on a proposal to expand the "State
Children's Health Insurance" program by $35 billion with funding to be provided
solely through higher tobacco taxes.

The tax proposal is focused on cigarettes. However, the increase will also
include all other tobacco products. Unfortunately, the tax cap on cigars is
effectively removed by raising it from slightly under five cents per cigar to
$10 per cigar. Why should cigar smokers bear this unfair burden?

The tax increase on cigars is particularly punitive, as all large cigars would
be subject to a Federal Excise tax of 53.13% of the manufacturer's selling
price. This is an increase of 156.4% over the current rate! The proposed
legislation would increase the current tax cap by 20,413% (not a typo)! This
would be the largest tax increase on any product in the history of the United
States.

The proposal would result in a dramatic increase in cigar prices in the U.S. and
all cigar smokers would be affected. For example, a cigar that currently has a
$4 selling price in an average tax state would sell for $13.05 after the
proposed legislation.

We urge you to connect to http://capwiz.com/rtda/utr/2/?a=10008296&i=84389566&c=
to quickly and efficiently contact your specific elected officials via email and
voice your opposition.

Please also forward this email to your friends and acquaintances. Your help is
needed today!

Thank you.

Altadis U.S.A.

Maker of fine cigars including Montecristo, Romeo y Julieta, H. Upmann,
Trinidad, Dutch Masters, Backwoods and many others.


----------



## Coffee Grounds

There is no way this is going through.
Here is why
The current bill would allow people with a house hold income of $80,000 qualifiy for the gov. subsidized health insurance. I am not just talking about the kids either adults would beable to obtain the coverage.

The Senators that wrote this bill are either pro socialized medicine or complete idiots.

This bill will be voted out of the senate unless there is a pro socialized medicine movement thanks to political contributions coming from companies like walmart.


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## Glacierman

There you have it. This is a back door approach to inflicting a government health care program on us. They will start by taxing the crap out of tobacco, then when that funding begins to fall off, they will tax something else. You watch and see. That is the way it will go IF they can get it through the House as well AND can override a Presidential veto. OR, they can put it aside until we get a new Prez (which they assume will be a Dem) and run it through again.

So, VOTE OUT THOSE WHO SUPPORT THIS MORONIC, COMMUNIST BILL.

That's our only lasting hope.

Time for a REAL third party.

My :2 ($25.00, with inflation figured in).


----------



## c2000

Bush may veto it but you can bet Hillary would sign it in a heartbeat.


Jerry in Minnesota.


----------



## Cigarmark

Here is an update I got from RTDA action alert I signed up for:
RTDA Federal Legislative Update!
*July 23, 2007* The Senate Finance Committee has approved legislation expanding SCHIP via significant increases in tobacco excise taxes. As you know, those on cigars are excessively punitive. That measure will go to the Senate floor for a vote perhaps as early as next week but before August 3 when the Senate and House adjourn for the month. The Senate may or may not amend the Finance Committee bill when it reaches the floor.  
However, the Senate bill is *not* the final word. Rather, the process then switches to the House where the Ways & Means Committee will draft its SCHIP proposal, either before August 3 or in September. Once that proposal is reported out of committee, it will be voted on by the full House -- where concern has already arisen about the magnitude of the proposed tax increases. Because there will be differences between the House bill and the Senate bill, a conference committee consisting of representatives from both bodies will meet to resolve those differences. What they end up with will be voted straight up or down by the Senate and the House. Then the measure goes to the President, who is adamant about vetoing any major expansion in SCHIP. Assuming he vetoes the bill, then the Senate and House have to muster a 2/3 majority to over-ride the veto. 
While the Congress must act before the current SCHIP program expires at the end of September, the outcome at this time is far from being decided. One possible scenario is that the Congress ends up passing a simple one-year extension of the current program.

Please keep the pressure on the Senate, and understand that we are early in the process, much lies ahead, and changes are likely. We will continue to keep you informed.  

In addition to the U.S. Senate-targeted Action Alerts, RTDA will initiate Action Alerts for the U.S. House of Representatives. These alerts will be active by Wednesday, July 25. 

Thank you for your continued support, keep the pressure on the U.S. Senate, and keep an eye on your email inbox for further developments.

Sincerely,

Chris McCalla Legislative Director

Retail Tobacco Dealers of America (RTDA)


----------



## NCatron

Unfortunately my senators (or at least their mail readers) don't get it. I emailed both, expressing my concerns re: pipe tobacco and cigars. I honestly don't care what they do to cigarettes. Of course, got a form letter back discussing only cigarettes.


----------



## Cnote

The Dems should charge a $10 tax on rolling papers too, but then that would probably hurt their constituents... :w


----------



## burninator

He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression: for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach unto himself.

-Thomas Paine


Sad, it hasn't been nearly long enough since these words were written that we should have already forgotten their truth.


----------



## omowasu

There are many, many other reasons to oppose SCHIP legislation besides just the tobacco tax. To us as herfers, the tobacco tax is significant.

But SCHIP does something else - it creates another bloated government social program that is not needed to run a country and certainly is not called for in our constitution.

SCHIP will require new government staff to run the program which will feed exclusively from our tax dollars. 

Why SCHIP needs to exist when Medicaid can be expanded without the administrative and employee costs is beyond me.

If tobacco is taxed even higher (understanding that cigarette smokers are mostly in lower income brackets, although not exclusively) and the buying power of the US Dollar is falling due to inflation, there will be less smokers as a result - whether that be due to lack of affordability or tax patriotism/activism.

So, SCHIP funding (and the guaranteed pensions, etc) will need to come from somewhere else. The US will need 17 MILLION new smokers by 2015 to adequately fund SCHIP via tobacco taxes. Do you really think we will have 17000000 new smokers with all of the state "anti-smoking" legislation?

Of course, the government can always print dollar bills to support SCHIP if the tax revenue does not compensate. This will invite in the most evil "third tax" - inflation - which we definitely do not need.

SCHIP should be opposed simply on being another government social program that is not necessary due to other means of accomplishing the goal (Medicaid). The tobacco tax just slaps us twice instead of once.


----------



## The Mum

Some Senators Get It!
From Cigar Cyclopedia 

The effect of such an enormous tax increase would be devastating.” 

Los Angeles, July 23 – As cigar smokers across the country continue to contact U.S. Senators about the preposterous proposed increase in cigar taxes (and cigarette taxes) to fund an expansion of children’s health insurance, some Senators get it: 

• Reader M.J. from Texas forwarded this response from U.S. Senator John Cornyn (R-Texas): 

“Thank you for contacting me regarding funding for the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP) through increased tobacco taxes. I appreciate having the benefit of your comments on this important matter. 

“As you may know, the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP) was created in 1997 to address the needs of uninsured children in America. It was designed for families who do not qualify for Medicaid, but cannot afford private insurance for their children. Over the past decade, SCHIP and Medicaid together have reduced the number of uninsured low-income children by one-third. 

“I fully support initiatives that increase Americans' access to affordable health care. But, I believe Congress should not rely on budgetary gimmicks or tax increases. Instead, Congress should focus on eliminating wasteful government spending. In fact, the Government Accountability Office (GAO), an independent, investigative arm of Congress, has identified billions of dollars in federal expenditures that are vulnerable to waste, fraud, and abuse. The GAO found that more than 10 percent of SCHIP enrollees are actually adults whose participation in SCHIP is diverting funds from the needs of low-income children. Instead of raising taxes, Congress should strengthen SCHIP by considering the President's proposal to terminate or reduce the budgets of over 140 inefficient or ineffective government programs. 

“You may be interested to know that I offered an amendment to the Fiscal Year 2008 budget resolution that would have strengthened SCHIP and would have ensured that it first covers low-income children across the country. In addition, my amendment would have allowed states to continue using innovative strategies to cover low-income children; improve and strengthen the oversight of SCHIP; and eliminate waste, fraud, and abuse. 

“I appreciate having the opportunity to represent the interests of Texans in the United States Senate, and you may be certain that I will keep your views in mind as my congressional colleagues and I consider healthcare funding during the 110th Congress. Thank you for taking the time to contact me.” 

Before you sent Cornyn any campaign contributions, however, also note that he is in favor of having the U.S. Food and Drug Administration take regulatory control of tobacco products. 

• Mississippi Senator Trent Lott (R-Mississippi) – a cigar smoker himself – got the attention of the Wall Street Journal with his comment published last Friday that sarcastically ripped the Finance Committee: 

“I think we ought to just shoot people that presume to smoke cigars in our presence and be done with it.”


----------



## borndead1

Glacierman said:


> There you have it. This is a back door approach to inflicting a government health care program on us. They will start by taxing the crap out of tobacco, then when that funding begins to fall off, they will tax something else. You watch and see. That is the way it will go IF they can get it through the House as well AND can override a Presidential veto. OR, they can put it aside until we get a new Prez (which they assume will be a Dem) and run it through again.
> 
> So, VOTE OUT THOSE WHO SUPPORT THIS MORONIC, COMMUNIST BILL.
> 
> That's our only lasting hope.
> 
> *Time for a REAL third party.*
> 
> My :2 ($25.00, with inflation figured in).


Indeed. I voted straight ticket Libertarian in the past 2 elections, and I will continue to do so. People keep voting for the same 2 parties, over and over, back and forth, and keep expecting different results. No more Republicrats will get my vote.


----------



## Coffee Grounds

There is no way this bill is going to get passed.
The dems are using it at a political chip to force Bush to veto so they can say what a heartless leader he is.
Bush agreed to give another $5 billion to the schip fund without raising taxes but the low life dems want $30billion so they can push their socialized health care agenda and they know dam well Bush will veto it.
This bill gives the states the power to divert its funds to adult health care if they choose. The bill also increases discounts the doctors have to take when seeing patients on these plans which is very bad because there will be less doctors that will see these children.

With the current schip policy there are only about 10% of children that are uninsured but that 10% would qualify for medicaid if there parents will just apply.

This entire bill is straight BS.
ANy politican that votes for should be voted out of office because they are working some political agenda other than helping the kids.


----------



## ColdCuts

Coffee Grounds said:


> ...but the low life dems...


I've twice written both my senators and the president denouncing this proposed tobacco tax. I trust everyone here at CS has done the same. Oh, and by the way, I'm also a registered democrat, or in your vernacular, a low-life.


----------



## Glacierman

ColdCuts said:


> I've twice written both my senators and the president denouncing this proposed tobacco tax. I trust everyone here at CS has done the same. Oh, and by the way, I'm also a registered democrat, or in your vernacular, a low-life.


No, no, no! There are Democrats and there are low-life Democrats. Two different categories. You, obviously, belong to the former and not the latter. 

[RANT] For my part, I am neither a Dem nor a Repub. I am a Constitutionalist (Constitution Party). Montana has the misfortune of having Slapsy Maxy Baucus as one of our Senators. He is an idiot. We also have the additonal misfortune of having as our other Senator one John Tester (D), who had the distinction of loosing soundly in his home county (Flathead, where he was a resident of the town of Whitefish before moving to his ranch on the east side of the state). He kisses Maxes butt every chance he gets.
This is the result of a large influx of Californicators into our state. [/RANT]

However, we also have elected a Constitution Party candidate to the state legislature.


----------



## fl0at

Emails sent.


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## Cubatobaco

Petitions at my store are going to be sent out as soon as they are all signed. They (Senate) had a dry run of votes to see where it stood as of now and the SCHIP bill passed 65-35!! What a bunch of idiots. :c

_*SCHIP:BS*_


----------



## BlueHavanaII

Just found this on the House web site... Arghhhhh!

House Committee on Ways and Means

For Immediate Release:
Friday, July 27, 2007 Contact:
J. Jioni Palmer or Matthew Beck
(202) 225-8933

People Are Talking &#8230; about the CHAMP Act
Scores of Organizations on record As "Champs" for Children and Seniors

They just keep coming. A coalition of groups illustrating the intergenerational scope of the Children's Health and Medicare Protection Act of 2007 (CHAMP) have joined together to support a bill that that is crucial to the future health of all Americans. Here`s a sample of what they`re saying.

"This well-balanced, fiscally responsible legislation addresses several priority issues for AARP's nearly 39 million members and their families &#8230; In short, this package of health care changes will help both children and older Americans, as well as make positive improvements to our health care system."

-AARP- <http://waysandmeans.congressnewsletter.net/mail/util.cfm?mailaction=clickthru&gpiv=1999940242.16327.869&gen=1&mailing_linkid=4488>

"This crucial legislation will clearly fill the much-needed gaps that currently exist in health care services for some of our most vulnerable citizens: low-income children, seniors and the disabled. H.R. 3162 will go a long way toward ensuring that all American children and seniors, regardless of their race, ethnicity or socio-economic status receive the high-quality health care they need and deserve."

-National Association for the Advancement of Colored People- <http://waysandmeans.congressnewsletter.net/mail/util.cfm?mailaction=clickthru&gpiv=1999940242.16327.869&gen=1&mailing_linkid=4492>

"We believe that this bill will protect and strengthen the Medicare program for current and future beneficiaries &#8230; Enactment of H.R. 3162 will be as significant step to ensure that the intent of Medicare to provide affordable health care to America's seniors remains as strong today and in the future as it was in 1965."

-Alliance for Retired Americans- <http://waysandmeans.congressnewsletter.net/mail/util.cfm?mailaction=clickthru&gpiv=1999940242.16327.869&gen=1&mailing_linkid=4484>

"This legislation address two of the AMA's highest priorities: providing health insurance coverage for low-income children through the reauthorization of the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP) and protecting seniors' access to care by preventing drastic cuts in Medicare funding for physician services."

-American Medical Association- <http://waysandmeans.congressnewsletter.net/mail/util.cfm?mailaction=clickthru&gpiv=1999940242.16327.869&gen=1&mailing_linkid=4482>

"This legislation is an important step forward in providing for the continued stability of the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP), and makes many improvements for both Medicare and Medicaid beneficiaries. We also are pleased with a number of provisions related to hospital care."

-American Hospital Association- <http://waysandmeans.congressnewsletter.net/mail/util.cfm?mailaction=clickthru&gpiv=1999940242.16327.869&gen=1&mailing_linkid=4491>

"Your proposal achieves many of the goals of the Academy. The Commitment of $50 billion to reaching eligible children is laudable. Far from an expansion of the programs, your measure focuses on reaching children who are, on paper, eligible for coverage under Medicaid or CHIP. Without funding, however, a child is not really eligible for coverage."

-American Academy of Pediatrics- <http://waysandmeans.congressnewsletter.net/mail/util.cfm?mailaction=clickthru&gpiv=1999940242.16327.869&gen=1&mailing_linkid=4483>

"Once again, on behalf of the nation's Insurance Commissioners, thank you for including these important measures. We stand ready to fulfill the responsibilities they confer upon us and will continue to work with the federal government to assist and protect America's seniors."

-National Association of Insurance Commissioners- <http://waysandmeans.congressnewsletter.net/mail/util.cfm?mailaction=clickthru&gpiv=1999940242.16327.869&gen=1&mailing_linkid=4493>

"The CHAMP Act will reduce significantly the number of children without health insurance, and we appreciate your efforts in constructing a strong bill that will make a real investment in improving health care for children. The long-term benefit of this investment will far outweigh the present cost."

-American Academy of Family Physicians- <http://waysandmeans.congressnewsletter.net/mail/util.cfm?mailaction=clickthru&gpiv=1999940242.16327.869&gen=1&mailing_linkid=4485>

"The legislation also makes significant improvements in the Medicare program, beginning with more equitable payments for Medicare Advantage (MA) plans &#8230; These cuts will benefit the vast majority of beneficiaries who are enrolled in traditional Medicare and subsidizing the plans with higher premiums."

-American Federation of Labor and Congress of Industrial Organizations- <http://waysandmeans.congressnewsletter.net/mail/util.cfm?mailaction=clickthru&gpiv=1999940242.16327.869&gen=1&mailing_linkid=4490>

"[We] deeply appreciate your commitment to the mental health of seniors and persons with disabilities in the Medicare program, and we look forward to working with you to pass this vital legislation."

-National Association of Social Workers- <http://waysandmeans.congressnewsletter.net/mail/util.cfm?mailaction=clickthru&gpiv=1999940242.16327.869&gen=1&mailing_linkid=4486>

To listen to Democratic leaders talking about the CHAMP Act, click here <http://waysandmeans.congressnewsletter.net/mail/util.cfm?mailaction=clickthru&gpiv=1999940242.16327.869&gen=1&mailing_linkid=4489> .

To view a summary of the CHAMP Act, click here <http://waysandmeans.congressnewsletter.net/mail/util.cfm?mailaction=clickthru&gpiv=1999940242.16327.869&gen=1&mailing_linkid=4487>


----------



## BlueHavanaII

Here's some more interesting reading!
(I hope, somehow, the republicans can keep conrol of the White House next year!)

NEWS RELEASE
Committee on Energy and Commerce 
Rep. John D. Dingell, Chairman
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For Immediate Release: July 27, 2007
Contact: Jodi Seth or Brin Frazier / 202-225-5735 

Republicans Refuse to Participate in Committee Markup
Minority Members Attempt to Block Healthcare for 
Needy Kids, Seniors
Washington, D.C. - For nearly 18 hours, Republican Committee Members, used obstructionist procedural tactics to attempt to derail a legislative package that commits $50 billion to reauthorize and improve the Children’s Health Insurance Program (CHIP) and makes critical investments in Medicare to protect the health of senior citizens. Minority members required a reading of the 465-page bill text of H.R. 3162, the Children’s Health and Medicare Protection Act (CHAMP Act). 

GOP tactics ultimately failed, as the CHAMP Act is likely to be considered on the House floor next week. 

CHIP was created with broad, bipartisan support and must be reauthorized by September 30. If Republicans continue to oppose legislation that reauthorizes this highly-successful program:

The 6 million children enrolled in CHIP will lose health coverage; 
Millions of children won’t get the preventative care they need and will likely receive care in a more costly environment - emergency rooms; 
Our healthcare safety net will become even more strained from the pressures of the uninsured; and 
More families will face bankruptcy and foreclosure due to medical debt. 

The CHAMP Act’s Medicare provisions are designed to help low-income seniors afford healthcare coverage. The bill would ensure that Medicare beneficiaries, not HMOs, reap the program’s benefits and also prevent a scheduled cut to physicians that treat Medicare patients.

Although President Bush highlighted his support for CHIP while running for re-election in 2004, he has threatened to veto Democrats' CHIP reauthorization legislation. Congressional Republicans are proposing to under-fund the program significantly, causing millions of children to lose coverage. 

The CHAMP Act is now expected to go before the full House for consideration.

Before ending the markup, Dingell issued the following statement: 

“The Chair notes that we are about to have a series of votes on the floor of the House. These will be the last votes of the day. 

“The Chair has a few remarks and observations.

“Next week we will observe the 40th anniversary of Medicare. In those rare instances in which we have engaged in substantive debate the last two days, I have been struck by the similarities between the arguments against Medicare and the arguments against the CHAMP Act. Yet the indisputable facts are that both Medicare and the children’s health insurance program – the two programs that rest at the core of the legislation this Committee has attempted to act upon – are unqualified successes.

“With profound regret the Chair has listened to our Republican colleagues complain, for almost 18 hours over the last two days, that they have not been part of the process for writing the legislation that has been before us. They have used that time to guarantee that they will not be part of the process. Time that could have been used for discussion, debate and deliberation was instead, by the choice of our Republican colleagues, devoted to distraction and delay. 

“By refusing roughly 50 requests for unanimous consent to proceed to work on the bill, our Republican colleagues willingly deprived themselves of their ability to shape it. (By the way, that works out to almost one request per Member of this Committee.)

“That is most unfortunate, because our Republican friends had before themselves a tremendous opportunity to provide health care to as many as twelve million kids, and to guarantee that senior citizens could continue seeing their own doctors. There are many other good provisions in this bill. Our minority also passed up an opportunity to change provisions in the bill not to their liking. Regrettably, our Republican colleagues have chosen to render themselves irrelevant. 

“With great sadness, the Chair announces that the Committee stands adjourned.”


----------



## Coffee Grounds

ColdCuts said:


> I've twice written both my senators and the president denouncing this proposed tobacco tax. I trust everyone here at CS has done the same. Oh, and by the way, I'm also a registered democrat, or in your vernacular, a low-life.


Here is what I mean by low life dems.
They are using gov. health care program for kids as a political chip.
The current structure of schip is working and with another $5 billion that Bush was willing to give would keep the current policy doing what President Clinton formed it to do. Insure children. But NO the dems what to make a political issue out of this to make the republican party look bad for the up coming election. If you can't see that then you have blinders on.

Do you own research on schip and draw your own conclusion about how the low life dems are acting.


----------



## BigBuddha76

here is the CRS report on the bill. its a document for internal staffers so they dont have to wade through the legal mumbo jumbo

send it out to whomever you can/want to


----------



## tzaddi

Rev. Zack said:


> here is the CRS report on the bill. its a document for internal staffers so they dont have to wade through the legal mumbo jumbo
> 
> send it out to whomever you can/want to


Very good!! Thank you for posting. It is interesting to read (between the lines) the concerns that the cigar smoking community has stirred within government.


----------



## JPSchmack

What amazes me about all of this is the shear ignorance of everyone involved.

Lumping in cigar smokers with cigarette smokers is absurd, as you all know.

The prefix "Large" before "cigars" in all this text. The idea of using the word large is to imply that it's a luxury item, or only part of the entire cigar industry. In reality, that word "large" can be replaced with "all" because the tax would not apply to cigarillos in tins, but every cigar.

"Proportional increase" to describe the largest tax increase in American history.

And of course, the "Let's cripple one industry to support this bill" logic that was okay to those who drafted this bill.

How can anyone not see that in order to provide health care for more children with this bill, you're also going to have to provide welfare to the children of those in the cigar industry.

For us, the main concern here CANNOT be the price of cigars. As humans, to put our cigars ahead of the health of children seems dastardly and evil. Our outrage is that the government would choose to cripple an entire industry to pay for it.

Cigar stores are family businesses, and the lively hood of many, many Americans. 

What other industry bears a 53 percent tax? 

Why not find a TRUE luxury item to tax? Why would a $4 cigar have a 53% tax on it, yet a $10,000 Vera Wang dress bear the same tax as a $14 pair of K-Mart jeans? Tax items that only the wealthy can afford, not something that will cripple an entire American industry.


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## qwerty1500

Rev. Zack said:


> here is the CRS report on the bill. its a document for internal staffers so they dont have to wade through the legal mumbo jumbo
> 
> send it out to whomever you can/want to


Thanks for posting this. I just wonder how many lawmakers will put good public policy ahead of politics?


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## Mojo65

qwerty1500 said:


> Thanks for posting this. I just wonder how many lawmakers will put good public policy ahead of politics?


None with a D before there name......and fewer and fewer with an R it would seem. Time for a new tea party!:gn


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## Sisyphus

Coffee Grounds said:


> the dems [want] to make a political issue out of this to make the republican party look bad....


Actually, I don't think the repubs need any help in this regard. I do oppose the bill, though, especially the Senate version for the ridiculous cigar tax but also a number of the provisions in both versions that expand and change the original intent of the act.

-Ken


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## borndead1

Glacierman said:


> However, we also have elected a Constitution Party candidate to the state legislature.


This is where we can start reclaiming our rights, privacy, and dignity. By NOT voting Republicrat. The ideal government is one that is small, efficient, and most importantly has _limited power._ Ask yourself: do either of the 2 major parties want this? And remember, what they SAY and what they DO are very different things. The Republican party has made plenty of contributions to the empowerment and enlargement of government, so pointing the big government finger at the Democrats don't fly anymore.

Want REAL change? Vote for a third party. They are out there. Ever notice when you vote, there are like 7 or 8 mofos running for president? Why haven't we heard of them? Why weren't they part of the debates? The excuse I hear is that "they are not considered 'viable' candidates." Maybe they would be if we demanded to hear their ideas and views! People keep going back and forth, voting the same 2 parties, and expecting different results. You can flip a coin 500 times, and you will never get anything other than heads or tails!

OK, enough coffee.


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## Mojo65

borndead1 said:


> This is where we can start reclaiming our rights, privacy, and dignity. By NOT voting Republicrat. The ideal government is one that is small, efficient, and most importantly has _limited power._ Ask yourself: do either of the 2 major parties want this? And remember, what they SAY and what they DO are very different things. The Republican party has made plenty of contributions to the empowerment and enlargement of government, so pointing the big government finger at the Democrats don't fly anymore.
> 
> Want REAL change? Vote for a third party. They are out there. Ever notice when you vote, there are like 7 or 8 mofos running for president? Why haven't we heard of them? Why weren't they part of the debates? The excuse I hear is that "they are not considered 'viable' candidates." Maybe they would be if we demanded to hear their ideas and views! People keep going back and forth, voting the same 2 parties, and expecting different results. You can flip a coin 500 times, and you will never get anything other than heads or tails!
> 
> OK, enough coffee.


Do this and hillery is the next president. That is unacceptable!:bx


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## drawfour

Mojo65 said:


> Do this and hillery is the next president. That is unacceptable!:bx


I was talking about EXACTLY this with a friend the other day. People are afraid to vote for a third party because they believe that without their vote for a certain candidate, the other "evil" candidate/party will win. It's a catch-22. You can't vote for the best candidate, because he won't win. And you can't NOT vote for the candidate in "your" party because then the person from the other "evil" party will win.

Therefore, no one is willing to switch, and we keep the status quo.


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## adsantos13

drawfour said:


> I was talking about EXACTLY this with a friend the other day. People are afraid to vote for a third party because they believe that without their vote for a certain candidate, the other "evil" candidate/party will win. It's a catch-22. You can't vote for the best candidate, because he won't win. And you can't NOT vote for the candidate in "your" party because then the person from the other "evil" party will win.
> 
> Therefore, no one is willing to switch, and we keep the status quo.


Yes, this is exactly why nothing will change.

Regardless, IMHO if you vote for a candidate you do not support, then you are throwing your vote away no matter the outcome of the election.

Im pretty pessimistic, so whether a Demo or Repub gets in, we are just selecting a politician elected with money that came from sightly different, but mostly the same special interest groups.

I really believe that if viable third party candidates do not, or are not allowed to enter into the political game in the U.S., then we are headed down the proverbial "Shits Creek"...Just IMHO


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## kjjm4

adsantos13 said:


> Yes, this is exactly why nothing will change.
> 
> Regardless, IMHO if you vote for a candidate you do not support, then you are throwing your vote away no matter the outcome of the election.
> 
> Im pretty pessimistic, so whether a Demo or Repub gets in, we are just selecting a politician elected with money that came from sightly different, but mostly the same special interest groups.
> 
> I really believe that if viable third party candidates do not, or are not allowed to enter into the political game in the U.S., then we are headed down the proverbial "Shits Creek"...Just IMHO


I voted for Bush in the last election because I believed him to be the lesser of two evils. I'm through doing that. The lesser of two evils is still evil. I don't care if the candidate I don't want to win wins, I'm through voting for people I don't really support. If you vote for a Democrat or a Republican, you're essentially voting for more of the status quo.


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## lowcountrycigars

THe Bill has been turned into law today. It past the senate. My paper said that with the current numbers of representatives backing the law, they ill have enough votes to overide the presidents veto. TIME FOR A TEA [email protected]!


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## BlueHavanaII

Vote Summary 

Question: On Passage of the Bill (H.R.976 As Amended ) 
Vote Number: 307 Vote Date: August 2, 2007, 10:18 PM 
Required For Majority: 1/2 Vote Result: Bill Passed 
Measure Number: H.R. 976 (Small Business Tax Relief Act of 2007 ) 
Measure Title: A bill to amend title XXI of the Social Security Act to reauthorize the State Children's Health Insurance Program, and for other purposes. 
Vote Counts: YEAs 68 
NAYs 31 
Not Voting 1 

Alabama: Sessions (R-AL), Nay Shelby (R-AL), Nay 
Alaska: Murkowski (R-AK), Yea Stevens (R-AK), Yea 
Arizona: Kyl (R-AZ), Nay McCain (R-AZ), Nay 
Arkansas: Lincoln (D-AR), Yea Pryor (D-AR), Yea 
California: Boxer (D-CA), Yea Feinstein (D-CA), Yea 
Colorado: Allard (R-CO), Nay Salazar (D-CO), Yea 
Connecticut: Dodd (D-CT), Yea Lieberman (ID-CT), Yea 
Delaware: Biden (D-DE), Yea Carper (D-DE), Yea 
Florida: Martinez (R-FL), Nay Nelson (D-FL), Yea 
Georgia: Chambliss (R-GA), Nay Isakson (R-GA), Nay 
Hawaii: Akaka (D-HI), Yea Inouye (D-HI), Yea 
Idaho: Craig (R-ID), Nay Crapo (R-ID), Nay 
Illinois: Durbin (D-IL), Yea Obama (D-IL), Yea 
Indiana: Bayh (D-IN), Yea Lugar (R-IN), Yea 
Iowa: Grassley (R-IA), Yea Harkin (D-IA), Yea 
Kansas: Brownback (R-KS), Nay Roberts (R-KS), Yea 
Kentucky: Bunning (R-KY), Nay McConnell (R-KY), Nay 
Louisiana: Landrieu (D-LA), Yea Vitter (R-LA), Nay 
Maine: Collins (R-ME), Yea Snowe (R-ME), Yea 
Maryland: Cardin (D-MD), Yea Mikulski (D-MD), Yea 
Massachusetts: Kennedy (D-MA), Yea Kerry (D-MA), Yea 
Michigan: Levin (D-MI), Yea Stabenow (D-MI), Yea 
Minnesota: Coleman (R-MN), Yea Klobuchar (D-MN), Yea 
Mississippi: Cochran (R-MS), Nay Lott (R-MS), Nay 
Missouri: Bond (R-MO), Yea McCaskill (D-MO), Yea 
Montana: Baucus (D-MT), Yea Tester (D-MT), Yea 
Nebraska: Hagel (R-NE), Nay Nelson (D-NE), Yea 
Nevada: Ensign (R-NV), Nay Reid (D-NV), Yea 
New Hampshire: Gregg (R-NH), Nay Sununu (R-NH), Yea 
New Jersey: Lautenberg (D-NJ), Yea Menendez (D-NJ), Yea 
New Mexico: Bingaman (D-NM), Yea Domenici (R-NM), Yea 
New York: Clinton (D-NY), Yea Schumer (D-NY), Yea 
North Carolina: Burr (R-NC), Nay Dole (R-NC), Nay 
North Dakota: Conrad (D-ND), Yea Dorgan (D-ND), Yea 
Ohio: Brown (D-OH), Yea Voinovich (R-OH), Nay 
Oklahoma: Coburn (R-OK), Nay Inhofe (R-OK), Nay 
Oregon: Smith (R-OR), Yea Wyden (D-OR), Yea 
Pennsylvania: Casey (D-PA), Yea Specter (R-PA), Yea 
Rhode Island: Reed (D-RI), Yea Whitehouse (D-RI), Yea 
South Carolina: DeMint (R-SC), Nay Graham (R-SC), Nay 
South Dakota: Johnson (D-SD), Not Voting Thune (R-SD), Nay 
Tennessee: Alexander (R-TN), Yea Corker (R-TN), Yea 
Texas: Cornyn (R-TX), Nay Hutchison (R-TX), Yea 
Utah: Bennett (R-UT), Nay Hatch (R-UT), Yea 
Vermont: Leahy (D-VT), Yea Sanders (I-VT), Yea 
Virginia: Warner (R-VA), Yea Webb (D-VA), Yea 
Washington: Cantwell (D-WA), Yea Murray (D-WA), Yea 
West Virginia: Byrd (D-WV), Yea Rockefeller (D-WV), Yea 
Wisconsin: Feingold (D-WI), Yea Kohl (D-WI), Yea 
Wyoming: Barrasso (R-WY), Nay Enzi (R-WY), Nay


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## BlueHavanaII

More info...

S.AMDT.2619 to H.R.976 To reduce the cap on the tax on large cigars to $3.00. 
Sponsor: Sen Nelson, Bill [FL] (introduced 8/1/2007) Cosponsors (1) 
Latest Major Action: 8/2/2007 Senate amendment agreed to. Status: Amendment SA 2619 agreed to in Senate by Unanimous Consent.


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## kjjm4

lowcountrycigars said:


> THe Bill has been turned into law today. It past the senate. My paper said that with the current numbers of representatives backing the law, they ill have enough votes to overide the presidents veto. TIME FOR A TEA [email protected]!


No it hasn't, not yet. The Senate and the House have to agree on a version of the law thats the same, then the new version has to be passed. Then it goes to the president. To override the eventual veto, it would need a 2/3s majority in both houses, and it isn't even close to that in the House.


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## BlueHavanaII

kjjm4 said:


> No it hasn't, not yet. The Senate and the House have to agree on a version of the law thats the same, then the new version has to be passed. Then it goes to the president. To override the eventual veto, it would need a 2/3s majority in both houses, and it isn't even close to that in the House.


My understanding is that is supposed to happen in September.
*Keep the pressure on your senators and representatives!
A 2,000 to 6,000 percent increase in our taxes is unacceptable!*

Jim


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## kjjm4

The program expires in September. I think the reauthorization could happen before that. I intend to send out another round of letters tomorrow.


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## JCK

I received this response today from Senator Saxby Chambliss in Georgia.. I've included my response. It's unfortunate that the House of Representatives found the bill in their form favorable.

Dear Senator Chambliss,

Thank you for taking time to respond to my original inquiry. I see that you have the interest of Georigia, children across the nation, and taxpayers interest in heart. Thank you again for scrutinizing a bill that would have put a particularly heavy burden on one sector of this nation's population.

Sincerely,

Ji Kim

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [email protected]
Subject: Responding to your message
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 18:24:29 -0400

Dear Mr. Kim :

Thank you for contacting me regarding the State Children's Health Insurance Program. It is good to hear from you.

The Balanced Budget Act of 1997 (P.L. 105-33) established the State

Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP). The program offers federal matching funds to states to provide health insurance to certain low-income children. Annual state allotments are determined by a formula that is based on the number of low-income children and low-income uninsured children in each state.

The latest official numbers show that SCHIP provides health benefits for nearly 4.5 million children nationally. Of this total, over 3.2 million were covered in separate state programs, such as PeachCare for Kids in Georgia . PeachCare , which currently has over 290,000 enrollees, is designed to provide comprehensive health care to Georgia children through the age of 18 who do not qualify for Medicaid and live in households with incomes at or below 235 percent of the federal poverty level (FPL). In Georgia , a family of three may earn up to $40,000 a year and a family of four up to $48,500 a year and still qualify for healthcare coverage for their children in PeachCare .

On August 2, 2007, the Senate passed H.R. 976, a bill to reauthorize SCHIP. I had a number of concerns with the bill and, therefore, I voted against this particular reauthorization. H.R. 976 included a $35 billion expansion of SCHIP, funded by increased taxes on cigarettes and other tobacco products. The bill also allows for states to continue insuring adults and enrolling children in families earning up to $82,600 for a family of four.

On August 1, 2007, the Senate voted on Senate Amendment 2530 to H.R. 976, about which I voted in favor. This amendment, titled the "Kids First Act," would have reauthorized SCHIP by focusing on the program's original intent of insuring low-income children. The amendment would have increased SCHIP funding by over 33 percent, allowing for the addition of over 2 million new low-income children, and ended the enrollment of adults. All of this would have been accomplished without raising taxes . The amendment failed 61-35 .

The American people are already overburdened with excessive taxes and this bill created new and additional ones . SCHIP was intended for children, but f or every dollar spent on adults through this program, that is one fewer dollar available to a child. I have been a staunch supporter of SCHIP and PeachCare , and believe it is imperative that we continue providing quality health insurance for children of Georgia and across the country, but I regret that I could not support it in this form.

If you would like to receive timely email alerts regarding the latest congressional actions and my weekly e-newsletter, please sign up via my web site at: www.chambliss.senate.gov . Please let me know whenever I may be of assistance.


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## BlueHavanaII

khubli said:


> I received this response today from Senator Saxby Chambliss in Georgia.. I've included my response. It's unfortunate that the House of Representatives found the bill in their form favorable.
> 
> Dear Senator Chambliss,
> 
> Thank you for taking time to respond to my original inquiry. I see that you have the interest of Georigia, children across the nation, and taxpayers interest in heart. Thank you again for scrutinizing a bill that would have put a particularly heavy burden on one sector of this nation's population.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Ji Kim
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> From: [email protected]
> Subject: Responding to your message
> Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 18:24:29 -0400
> 
> Dear Mr. Kim :
> 
> Thank you for contacting me regarding the State Children's Health Insurance Program. It is good to hear from you.
> 
> The Balanced Budget Act of 1997 (P.L. 105-33) established the State
> 
> Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP). The program offers federal matching funds to states to provide health insurance to certain low-income children. Annual state allotments are determined by a formula that is based on the number of low-income children and low-income uninsured children in each state.
> 
> The latest official numbers show that SCHIP provides health benefits for nearly 4.5 million children nationally. Of this total, over 3.2 million were covered in separate state programs, such as PeachCare for Kids in Georgia . PeachCare , which currently has over 290,000 enrollees, is designed to provide comprehensive health care to Georgia children through the age of 18 who do not qualify for Medicaid and live in households with incomes at or below 235 percent of the federal poverty level (FPL). In Georgia , a family of three may earn up to $40,000 a year and a family of four up to $48,500 a year and still qualify for healthcare coverage for their children in PeachCare .
> 
> On August 2, 2007, the Senate passed H.R. 976, a bill to reauthorize SCHIP. I had a number of concerns with the bill and, therefore, I voted against this particular reauthorization. H.R. 976 included a $35 billion expansion of SCHIP, funded by increased taxes on cigarettes and other tobacco products. The bill also allows for states to continue insuring adults and enrolling children in families earning up to $82,600 for a family of four.
> 
> On August 1, 2007, the Senate voted on Senate Amendment 2530 to H.R. 976, about which I voted in favor. This amendment, titled the "Kids First Act," would have reauthorized SCHIP by focusing on the program's original intent of insuring low-income children. The amendment would have increased SCHIP funding by over 33 percent, allowing for the addition of over 2 million new low-income children, and ended the enrollment of adults. All of this would have been accomplished without raising taxes . The amendment failed 61-35 .
> 
> The American people are already overburdened with excessive taxes and this bill created new and additional ones . SCHIP was intended for children, but f or every dollar spent on adults through this program, that is one fewer dollar available to a child. I have been a staunch supporter of SCHIP and PeachCare , and believe it is imperative that we continue providing quality health insurance for children of Georgia and across the country, but I regret that I could not support it in this form.
> 
> If you would like to receive timely email alerts regarding the latest congressional actions and my weekly e-newsletter, please sign up via my web site at: www.chambliss.senate.gov . Please let me know whenever I may be of assistance.


I received the same email from Sen Chambliss today.
From a strictly selfish point of view, I wish there was emphasis on the cigar portion of this tax (it seems to be wholly ignored)!

Jim


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## burninator

BlueHavanaII said:


> I received the same email from Sen Chambliss today.
> From a strictly selfish point of view, I wish there was emphasis on the cigar portion of this tax (it seems to be wholly ignored)!
> 
> Jim


I did, too. I wonder if he read my message or just the subject line.


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## GOAT LOCKER

kjjm4 said:


> To override the eventual veto, it would need a 2/3s majority in both houses, and it isn't even close to that in the House.


There will most likely be some compromise reached by our spineless senators and representatives that will either avoid the veto, or swing enough nays to yeas to override the veto. As you can see below, Senator Chambliss and other republicans have already offered a 33% increase in SCHIP funding. That will grow, and there almost certainly will be increased taxes.

No one wants to allow their next opponent to say "he voted against health care for low income children and for BIG TABACCO". If the minority party somehow blocks this bill, I suspect they will pay a political price.


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