# Why it's a bad idea



## The invisible man (Dec 18, 2012)

There has been a lot of discussion about openly naming vendors, I weighed the pros and cons and here's what I came up with.Just speaking for myself here.

Pros:
1. Every and anybody who visits the Habanos forum can easily find a vendor without the inconvience of having to contribute to the forum, get to know people and make friends or PM someone asking about a vendor.

Cons:
1. Every and anybody who visits the Habanos forum can easily find a vendor without the inconvience of having to contribute to the forum, get to know people and make friends or PM someone asking about a vendor.

2.Threads start popping up with guys saying " man this cigar used to be everywhere it's so hard to find now"

3.Orders start to come up missing

4. People start recieving customs letters

5. Vendors start getting visits from unwanted company

6.What happens next?

I know some may disagree with this.This is just my opinion, doesn't mean I'm right it's just one mans opinion.


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## jp1979 (Sep 12, 2013)

I was for open discussion, after thinking about it, I'm right there with you. I think it's a bad idea.


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

I still like the list idea.
An approved list of good and bad vendors in a sticky thats locked down.
In this way no vendors are discussed. No one can ruin a good vendors name.
Discussions about vendors can then be done about who's running what promotion etc etc etc.
In no way would other discussions be allowed sorta like now only certain areas of habanos are discussed.
By allowing this discussion IMHO.
Everyone that comes here feels equal that would perk the section up.
In much the same way RockMans thread has woken this place up.


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## JustinThyme (Jun 17, 2013)

The invisible man said:


> There has been a lot of discussion about openly naming vendors, I weighed the pros and cons and here's what I came up with.Just speaking for myself here.
> 
> Pros:
> 1. Every and anybody who visits the Habanos forum can easily find a vendor without the inconvience of having to contribute to the forum, get to know people and make friends or PM someone asking about a vendor.
> ...


I dont agree with number one in both instances. Remember you have to be around for awhile and make 100 posts to even see this area.

As for number 2 that happens with all cigars that are worth a hoot. There isnt going to be any CC shortage. Remember the rest of the planet smokes mostly CCs, the US is the only country that smokes mostly NCs.

The rest is pure conjecture and speculation.

Im with Tony. A good vs bad list would go a long way. Even if it was limited to a black list at least newbs and even FOGs who hadn't tried a particular vendor before would know not to bother.

People being able to find reputable vendors without having to find out the hard way would definitely liven up this section of the forum. I read for months after getting access to this area, did my homework and still came up with nothing viable that I was willing to wager $100 or more on a chance that I would either get stiffed of ripped completely. Back to the cocaine analogy. If you drive up in the hood looking for crack and don't know your vendor it is more likely you will get ripped than not. I was fortunate enough to have a couple of brothers here point me in the right direction of a couple of the right crack dealers anyhow for which I am grateful.

IMO anyone who hoards vendor names based on keeping it for themselves based on reason number two is no BOTL in the least.

The only people I wine and dine have boobs and its not CCs Im after!


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## fattaman (Jun 1, 2014)

TonyBrooklyn said:


> I still like the list idea.
> An approved list of good and bad vendors in a sticky thats locked down.
> In this way no vendors are discussed. No one can ruin a good vendors name.
> Discussions about vendors can then be done about who's running what promotion etc etc etc.
> ...


+1.Good idea on the approved list.


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## madmarvcr (Jun 1, 2013)

I don't mind a list of vendors. What I don't want is it turning into vendor bashing like happens all the time in General forum


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## egoo33 (Jul 21, 2013)

madmarvcr said:


> I don't mind a list of vendors. What I don't want is it turning into vendor bashing like happens all the time in General forum


Nailed it


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## Flapjack23 (Jan 18, 2012)

I dont like the idea of a list of vendors being posted on an open forum. Much too easy for someone who wishes to stop those vendors from sending items into the US to get access and put a stop to it.


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## Redwyvern (Aug 6, 2013)

I have an idea. Make it a poll. A list of CC vendors, and members that have dealt with them can vote for their favorite vendor. Then, members can see the list, and use it as they wish. Let members have the opportunity to vote unanimously, and for their top 3, or 5 vendors. :banana:


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## madmarvcr (Jun 1, 2013)

Flapjack23 said:


> I dont like the idea of a list of vendors being posted on an open forum. Much too easy for someone who wishes to stop those vendors from sending items into the US to get access and put a stop to it.


The powers that be already know the list of vendors from a very popular vendor review site. From this list the same powers that be could stop 95% of the product shipped if they wanted to do that


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## mpls (Sep 7, 2012)

madmarvcr said:


> The powers that be already know the list of vendors from a very popular vendor review site. From this list the same powers that be could stop 95% of the product shipped if they wanted to do that


Exactly, my business is international logistics and I can assure you if this was of any real importance to the government we wouldn't be able to get our beloved cc's from a variety of vendors with just the click of a button.

My custommers have a more stingent process importing cribs from manufacturers in China than we do our cigars. Everyone cares that there child is in a safe crib, that we don't transport viruses, and that dangerous goods are kept out of the wrong persons hands. Due to the embargo, the government basically makes it a bit of a hassle to get our cigars, but that's it. Maybe it will change and they'll crack down on it someday, but its a very minor issue, if at all, at the moment, as long as you aren't buying in large bulk to then distribute (ie full containers of cc's).

Now, if I were a vendor that has flown below the radar and cannot be found on websites such as the one mentioned above, I would want to remain that way. If I were a vendor who is listed all over the internet on various forums, I could careless if I were mentioned on Puff.

Anyhow, that's just my opinion, so don't take it as 100% fact. I'd post here way more frequently if there were more discussions on this part of the forum, so am intrigued by all the talk of change. I also am one who doesn't mind helping out those searching for suggestions on where to look if approached with a little respect.


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## OnePyroTec (Dec 11, 1997)

Not all vendors want their names mentioned in forums. YES, it happens, but again, not all want it. I say this because I am friends with owners of several tobacco shops in Europe and I have been told in person, face to face, they don't care for the added advertisement of their business. To just start making lists without prior consent of the actual business owners because YOU THINK they won't mind is not really the best course of action.

NOW, if *"your"* vendor *WANTS* all the business in the world and does not care who knows what they sell and or where they ship, there is the one VERY SIMPLE fix that will keep everyone happy. Pick up the phone or send them an email and *ask them to JOIN PUFF.COM as a member*. They can list their own site URL in their OWN signature line AND they can sell & give specials in the RETAILERS forum.


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## mpls (Sep 7, 2012)

OnePyroTec said:


> Not all vendors want their names mentioned in forums. YES, it happens, but again, not all want it. I say this because I am friends with owners of several tobacco shops in Europe and I have been told in person, face to face, they don't care for the added advertisement of their business. To just start making lists without prior consent of the actual business owners because YOU THINK they won't mind is not really the best course of action.
> 
> NOW, if *"your"* vendor *WANTS* all the business in the world and does not care who knows what they sell and or where they ship, there is the one VERY SIMPLE fix that will keep everyone happy. Pick up the phone or send them an email and *ask them to JOIN PUFF.COM as a member*. They can list their own site URL in their OWN signature line AND they can sell & give specials in the RETAILERS forum.


I'm sure there are vendors who do not want to be mentioned, so maybe your suggestion is without a doubt the best way to go about it? I don't think every vendor under the sun needs to be mentioned, but if they don't have an issue being mentioned under the habanos section in puff and they ARE known to be a reliable source - it's a win win for everyone?

edit: to be honest it won't affect me eitherway since I'm happy with the vendor I use, but it might be a great way to get more people discussing cc's on here.


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## SeanTheEvans (Dec 13, 2013)

JustinThyme said:


> I dont agree with number one in both instances. Remember you have to be around for awhile and make 100 posts to even see this area.


But we all know how easy this actually is, and in just my <year being here, I've seen it happen on quite a few occassions that people post-whore or make an account sit out for 3 months, then come back and post til they can join Habanos. The time/post count really is not any form of security, IMO.

If it's to build a relationship and get to know the group, well, that's exactly how it is now, so if you build a relationship you can get a vendor. All making a list accessible after x posts and x days would do is set an obvious target for anyone who wishes to bypass the whole "part of the community" part.

With trades/etc, it's easy to tell if someone is part of the community, so even after they gain access, they don't gain much atm. But with vendor lists, who knows how many would pop in, get to Habanos section, and then (as many FOGs have stated happens when they used to give out vendors in the past) they vanish once they have the info, only to spread it around to their own circles, with no Puff involvement at all. Eventually every doucher with half a will has the Cuban hookup, Chelsey Handler mentions it on her talk show, and Bam! It's the Silk Road all over again, which btw, is no longer available. Yeah it doesn't happen overnight, but things DO eventually reach a critical mass at times.

As it is, if anyone thinks Habanos should be more accessible to n00bs, by all means, hook some of them up!

If you have a vendor, why complain about listing it publicly or not? How about instead you seek out those who seem to be struggling and give them some advice, or help them find their way? Or PM them about NC for CC trades?

I'm not sure why anyone thinks any "change" needs to occur within the framework of Puff, rather than in just the actions of the members. If you think n00bs to CCs have it too hard, help them out. If you think FOGs aren't friendly enough, be friendlier to those newer than you. If you think it's not a welcoming place for people to find someone to answer questions, BE SOMEONE WHO WILL VOLUNTEER TO ANSWER QUESTIONS.

Why a big board open to the 100post/90day public is the most desired answer is beyond me, besides thinking that maybe people DO want that kind of instant gratification.

As FOGs have mentioned, it's easier now than ever, what would everyone complaining do if there was no internet? No Puff at all? No friendly or unfriendly vets whom you could even attempt to contact? I guess maybe they would be not be upset that they can't have things that they don't know exist?

But someone was rude to me when I asked.... so? Ask someone else. Ask someone you KNOW somehow, someone you would EXPECT to not be rude to you. If you have not *one *friend on Puff who you can PM about absolutely ANYTHING, you've been doing something wrong.

It's like people who bitch about how the "government" does all this stuff to us, and "corporations" do so and so. And??? YOU do something about it, nobody else should care more about how something makes you feel than you, so why should anyone else be expected to make changes or do anything different if the people being bothered by the status quo aren't willing to put in work themselves?

If you have a vendor, why complain about listing it publicly or not? How about instead you seek out those who seem to be struggling and give them some advice, or help them find their way?

Sorry for the lengthy rant, but in short: The only barriers we have up here are the ones we are making ourselves. If we want the CC section to be more active: BE MORE ACTIVE in it.

Just like hate threads get the most action in the General Cigar Discussion, these "how should we change things" threads are the most popular in the Habanos... maybe if we spent as much time PMing each other and getting to know one another, and talking about well... CCs (how many people chiming in here have NONE?) then maybe the ball would get rolling.

"It's just like a magic penny. Hold it tight and you won't have any. Lend it, spend it, you'll have so many.... they'll roll all over the floor"

Or is an open vendor list and CC selling area really what this is all about? Those things are what will make Puff a better site? Methinks not.


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## HIM (Sep 12, 2012)

madmarvcr said:


> The powers that be already know the list of vendors from a very popular vendor review site.


why not just keep a link to this vendor review site around and people can find it themselves from there? This way Puff is simply relaying information thats already been put out there.


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## maverickmage (Feb 10, 2008)

madmarvcr said:


> The powers that be already know the list of vendors from a very popular vendor review site. From this list the same powers that be could stop 95% of the product shipped if they wanted to do that


That list was so easy to find when I was first looking for CC sources that I wasn't sure if they were just links to fakes or not. lol


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## The invisible man (Dec 18, 2012)

OnePyroTec said:


> NOW, if *"your"* vendor *WANTS* all the business in the world and does not care who knows what they sell and or where they ship, there is the one VERY SIMPLE fix that will keep everyone happy. Pick up the phone or send them an email and *ask them to JOIN PUFF.COM as a member*. They can list their own site URL in their OWN signature line AND they can sell & give specials in the RETAILERS forum.


Yes, great idea, and after you have emailed your vendors and asked them wether they want there name put out there you may also want to contact the people who own puff and find out if is alright with them as well.

I also agree that if the powers that be really wanted to put the clamp down on this whole thing they could.
That being said you don't want to force there hand either.

Yes in the grand scheme if things they are just cigars and they are not at the top of the priority list.As long as things are kept private and low key all is good.

But once you start doing things out in the open, right in there faces things may just become public and attract unwanted attention.And even though it's not that big of a deal, you may just may force there hand and force them to act.


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## [email protected] (Aug 16, 2012)

HIM said:


> why not just keep a link to this vendor review site around and people can find it themselves from there? This way Puff is simply relaying information thats already been put out there.


I second that.

While a list would be awesome as well, there are plenty of post trolls looking for a place to say HEY YALL GET EM HERE....of course there is a popular review site that started from here that uses such vendor as a direct link on their page.....looks like either way good luck and let's the mods loose......


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## Blue Raccoon (Mar 13, 2011)

anyone that knows how to use a search engine should have no problem finding CCs.


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## Passprotection (Jan 28, 2013)

I say have a sub sub-forum. Something like 700 posts and a year of activity with >10 trader feedback with 100%. By then posters will be seasoned and there will be great vendor topics and trades to those whom have proven that they'll be around. :2


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## Redwyvern (Aug 6, 2013)

SeanTheEvans, thanks for the post. You have said all that really needed to be said. I'm sad that I'm all out of RG, cause I would have dumped some on you!
And to the posts that keep saying "you can find cc by using your search engine" or "just google and you'll find cc's". Please understand, those of us that are new are not looking for cc's, we're looking for AUTHENTIC cc's. There is a difference, and if googling was the answer, everyone and their mother would have access to cc's. I'm very grateful to a true BOTL that lead me in the right direction. He saw an opportunity to assist, and stepped up to the plate. I want to eventually imitate his behavior.


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## Blue Raccoon (Mar 13, 2011)

guess I should have said a search engine and common sense. as far as actually listing the the trusted CC vendors.. I have a feeling the vendors would be less than thrilled. the forum owners would love to hear from the ATF.


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## ejgarnut (Sep 28, 2009)

If the vendors advertise online and they show up in a search, then its pretty obvious that they dont mind being found out. It could be construed that they would not mind being listed in a sticky on a cigar forum.


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## Blue Raccoon (Mar 13, 2011)

the vendors showing up on the world wide web (remember the US is the only folks w/o cc's) is a whole lot different then this forum promoting illegal activity by posting CC sources and the CC source I would think would not like to be identified which will only make it tougher for them to ship to the US. same as everyone seems to always post the name of the US vendor who will willingly ship to Canada and overseas. but, then I could be totally full of crap and I really ain't got a dog in this fight.


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## ejgarnut (Sep 28, 2009)

Perhaps if it were in a sticky, there could be a bold underlined disclaimer clearly stating that the list is intended for non US members only.



Blue Raccoon said:


> but, then I could be totally full of crap and I really ain't got a dog in this fight.


 lol...same here & i would imagine all these same points have been argued before, here or elsewhere


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## Kasanova King (Jun 8, 2014)

I don't understand why it would be a bad idea. The vendors advertise all over the internet - it's not as if they're trying to be discrete about it.....as a matter of fact, they would probably like the additional publicity.


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## Kasanova King (Jun 8, 2014)

ejgarnut said:


> If the vendors advertise online and they show up in a search, then its pretty obvious that they dont mind being found out. It could be construed that they would not mind being listed in a sticky on a cigar forum.


Exactly....you beat me to it.


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## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

There are some really great points made here, but  what @SeanTheEvans said was epic. If you haven't, go read it above. If you've read it, go read it again.

Honestly, it's a tough call and I see compelling points on both sides. I also see that many people believe discussion of vendors as some sort of Grail, or a panacea for what they perceive as wrong with the Habanos section. One of the many reasons that vendor discussion has been disallowed for all this time is simply that it's "low hanging fruit". It's so much easier for the lazy to just talk about a buying experience, or how much they paid for something, rather than to post in-depth information that forces them to actually think. The Habanos forum is set up in such way that would try to force the participants into more subjective intellectual discussion. This is the real reason why there isn't more activity here. If you simply look at the most popular threads here, they are, "What did you smoke?" and "what did you buy?" The two very threads which require absolutely no thought, or effort. Think about it.

What is sorely lacking here, as well as in the General forums, is that the people that know about vintages, strains, processes, fermentations, curing practices and actually do any level of research into the hobby, just don't post is and those who don't, don't bother to think hard enough in order to ask the right questions.

We want it all handed to us.

Enabled, or not, the last thing I want to see is threads degenerating into a pissing contest. Someone coming in and saying, "oh I had a lousy experience here" and someone else, "Sod that! I've dealt with him for years and he's great!" I'm already intolerant enough about people's belief that they have every right to bash the bejeezus out of an NC vendor. It's one thing to FACTUALLY represent an experience and let the reader decide, but what the low-browed invariably do is to use it as a :anim_soapbox: to pronounce their own righteousness and superiority and how the evil empire willfully and without provocation, attacked them with poor service. uke:

"Just the facts, Ma'am".

Honestly, I don't know what the answer is. I had never had a FOG here be a dick to me. If any FOG has been a dick to a newb over CC's, shame on you. :nono: If any newb has PM'd a FOG out of the blue, without so much as a "hello, howdayado", then shame on you.

The one thing that not allowing vendor discussion unequivocally accomplishes is the building of relationships. Pretty much everyone knows, or should know, is that anyone can PM anyone to confirm a vendor, or even ask for alternatives. I've never heard-tell of a FOG shutting someone down who's done at least a little homework. The complaints I usually get go something like, "Sir DoucheAlot had the unmitigated gall to PM me asking for vendors. I don't even know the dude."


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## Perfecto Dave (Nov 24, 2009)

Thanks Don.... As usual, well said piece.
I'm in the no lists, good or bad vendor, camp. Do your own research...make some friends...enjoy yourself.
How many times have your heard the phrase..."It's the journey, not the destination."
Educate yourself and minimize your loses. Then you can feel like you accomplished something and have not just had it handed to you.


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## Engineer99 (Aug 4, 2011)

I'm in the no camp. I don't think obtaining reliable sources for Habanos should be so easy as simply waiting for the time/posts to accumulate. It took me a long time to take the plunge, with a lot of research and should I or should I not...My decision to go forth and selecting a small handful of vendors came down to personal face to face recommendations at a few herfs and the exchange a few emails.

I've had a few newbs PM me about sources, and although I had knowledge of verified vendors, I just told them I got them at shops in LA and will be heading back there to replenish my stash. Never heard from any of them again, nor did I see them post about anything again. I have way too much experience with someone that wants something from me and after he/she gets it, it's over...never hear from them again. You never really know who people are initially, and they might be just a hit and run type that sees the novelty or just has a single purpose in mind and will never contribute in a meaningful way.

It would seem a little strange, and in a way, disrespectful, for me to see someone given the keys to the kingdom after others( I'm talking to you FOG"s) have put in so much work, back in the pre-internet days where I have no doubt it was much more challenging.


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## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

Engineer99 said:


> ...( I'm talking to you FOG"s) have put in so much work, back in the pre-internet days where I have no doubt it was much more challenging.


News flash! YOU are a FOG!


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## Redwyvern (Aug 6, 2013)

Engineer99 said:


> I've had a few newbs PM me about sources, and although I had knowledge of verified vendors, I just told them I got them at shops in LA and will be heading back there to replenish my stash. Never heard from any of them again, nor did I see them post about anything again. I have way too much experience with someone that wants something from me and after he/she gets it, it's over...never hear from them again. You never really know who people are initially, and they might be just a hit and run type that sees the novelty or just has a single purpose in mind and will never contribute in a meaningful way.
> 
> It would seem a little strange, and in a way, disrespectful, for me to see someone given the keys to the kingdom after others( I'm talking to you FOG"s) have put in so much work, back in the pre-internet days where I have no doubt it was much more challenging.


I've been given those keys, and it came as a surprise since I wasn't actually asking for a source, just general guidance, and I'm very grateful. No way am I leaving after such generosity was shown to me! My funds are limited to say the least, but I'm gonna still stick around and post up until, and after I make my purchases. Today I'm smoking a Rocky Patel II-XVI that was gifted to me, but eventually I'll be puffing on a Party Short! Until then, I'll be right here sucking up all the info, and contributing when I can.

Thanks, YouKnowWhoYouAre!


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## magoo6541 (Mar 9, 2014)

I've been following the thread and I'll share my thoughts along with echoing the thoughts of some others.

First, when the "How To Make It Better" thread came up, I noticed that there really seems to be 2 sides. There's the newer members and the older members for the most part. When someone asks "how do we" you'll get a lot of subjective responses. The older members may really enjoy how things have been and their answer might be to tighten requirements up. To them, that is how you would make it better for them. To a newer member such as myself, I see making puff better by making it a one stop shop for everything you want to know about tobacco. When there are numerous other sites that contain information about cuban cigars and vendors, how could it be a bad thing to add puff.com to that list? Instead of being on and using 3 or 4 websites, it might be nice to just use puff. I think it would definitely keep newer members around and there would be more discussions. Again, it's very subjective and I thought it was nice to see this conversation get it's own thread.

1. When someone sells ANYTHING on the internet, you're name is on a list somewhere where you're being rated by people who use your service. If you sell candy, detail vehicles, sell fine wines or sell fine cigars, it doesn't matter, people review your services and your reputation is known by those who want to know. The thought that an internet retailer doesn't want free advertisement is possible, but it defies common sense. Does their name not come up on any other site or search engine? How do you even know about them if they don't advertise or don't like people talking about them?

2. As said, there are other sites that review vendors. A comprehensive list and review site is free and available to anyone who wants to use it. Type in a vitola or vender in google and that website is assuredly going to be one of those top results. In fact, to make a short story long... I found out about habanos by myself before I was a member of puff.com. I simply googled what I wanted to know and was faced with numerous vendors. From there, I typed in the name of one of the vendors. Boom, there was this review site with a list of 32 habanos vendors and thousands of reviews. It is that easy. A lot of people might say, then it isn't needed on puff. I don't necessarily disagree with that however, this thread is directly linked from the aforementioned "how to make it better" thread and I really feel like puff being an "everything to know about tobacco" site would make it better.

3. It was already said, about the fear they we would "uncover" shipping practices. Just click on the "what did you buy" thread and you can see packaging complete with customs labels. Go to YouTube and you can watch videos of people receiving packages and they clearly show everything from the outer packaging to how they're protect the boxes or cigars. These people aren't doing anything with a malicious intent. They're trying to show off their vendor and show how nice of a job they do with your merchandise. When I sell stuff on here or eBay or wherever, I make sure to pack it as nice as I can. I would be delighted if someone thought to take pictures or a video of them unpacking a box. It shows how satisfied that person really is.

4. The idea that discussing obtaining CCs might get anyone into legal trouble is speculation and just not true in my opinion. Type "how to make methamphetamine" in google. You really shouldn't be surprised to find websites that actually contain that information. What I'm saying is that if a website can stay up that gives directions on how to manufacture meth, I think Puff is safe. 

5. The fear that people would start reviewing vendors unfairly or complain about wrapper shade or minor inconsistencies, ect ect. You can make rules and enforce those rules that deal with that... An example would be: To make a negative review you have to have picture proof. Then if enough people voted to "veto" that review, it would be nullified.

6. Being able to say a vendors name isn't just to use it in the use of a review. It would be nice to not have to worry about it just in regular conversation. In the contest thread, there are a couple times where I would have wanted to use the name of the vendor that was sponsoring the thread but didn't just because of the rules. I don't know if I can reference that review site or not since it directly talks about vendors... It's kind of silly that I can't just say that I buy from XXXXXX and I like them because......

If you asked me, US Customs already know who the vendors are, what their shipping practices are and everything else they need to know. There's a CNN Report from several years ago that talks about Chicago Customs intercepting hundreds and thousands of packages. I just don't think they have the desire to make this in to a big deal or they don't have the personnel to enforce it. I could be wrong on that but one thing is for sure... If someone on Puff talked about the packaging and said their vendors name, it would definitely NOT be news to Customs and it would hardly, if at all, get a second glance.

My $0.02


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## Merovius (Sep 11, 2013)

magoo6541 said:


> I've been following the thread and I'll share my thoughts along with echoing the thoughts of some others....


Actually most forums ask that vendors *NOT* be discussed and request discretion when sharing recent buys. Out of courtesy to Puff members, I will refrain from mentioning those forums here.

I think you have unintentionally made the FoGs point for them in stating how readily available vendor information is and how little effort it takes to do a bit of research and find reliable sources.

As for point 4, I can assure you the fear is very real.

Im supportive of sharing sources. The mentality that there will be less cigars for me is lame. Theyre just cigars, there will always be more and that sort of attitude is just not what Puff is about, to me anyway.

The biggest issue is people's feelings, being used and tossed away once sources are discovered. Also, having their mailboxes blown up. That would get annoying after a while. So, I still like the idea of a member list willing to respond to pm's about sources.

But to be totally honest, the more I think about it the more I like the way things are, sorry. Weve had 2 new guys recently come into this section, Brimy and Cake&Dottle. These guys have been around for a bit and we all know who they are, theyre brothers, so were willing to help 'em out. It helps build the community, its important stuff.


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## john_007 (Nov 4, 2011)

I have been on puff for a few years, and never got started to find CC sources. i used to always be pissed when C.A. would rate CC in their lists cuz i assumed I would never get to smoke them. Well what i can say is I got access to the DARK side and while there was no list, there was so much knowledge. I have learned so much from this site and the FOG's it is amazing. I guess what im saying if there is some list of pick-a-vendor why would anyone go back and read all the amazing posts, and stay up all night like a kid in a candy shop reading about this cigar is great rott or that cigar is great in 5years. There are plenty of places where all you need to do is look and you can find a reliable vendor, but puff is so much more than that and I would hate to see that lost.


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## OnePyroTec (Dec 11, 1997)

Merovius said:


> Actually most forums ask that vendors *NOT* be discussed and request discretion when sharing recent buys. Out of courtesy to Puff members, I will refrain from mentioning those forums here.
> 
> I think you have unintentionally made the FoGs point for them in stating how readily available vendor information is and how little effort it takes to do a bit of research and find reliable sources.
> 
> ...


Expanding a bit on that. 100% agree, they are just cigars & I too support sharing of resources. AND at the same time, I respect PUFF.com rules and the VENDORS I USE & their requests not to broadcast. I have personally helped several smokers obtain the forbidden fruit...all done via PM's and calls or emails to vendors asking if they will take a customer on my word that person is not a dick.

YES, their names come up in various places, it is a world wide web. Hell, do a search HERE and you will find several "vendors" who are still registered as users but no longer active for one reason or another. Many were simply driven away from lack of respect. Except for Ilja May you rest in peace my friend.

I'll put the challenge out again for anyone to get their vendors to join the site, not as a vendor or sponsor, just a member and they can put their URL in their signature line.


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## Merovius (Sep 11, 2013)

OnePyroTec said:


> Expanding a bit on that. 100% agree, they are just cigars & I too support sharing of resources. AND at the same time, I respect PUFF.com rules and the VENDORS I USE & their requests not to broadcast. I have personally helped several smokers obtain the forbidden fruit...all done via PM's and calls or emails to vendors asking if they will take a customer on my word that person is not a dick.
> 
> YES, their names come up in various places, it is a world wide web. Hell, do a search HERE and you will find several "vendors" who are still registered as users but no longer active for one reason or another. Many were simply driven away from lack of respect. Except for Ilja May you rest in peace my friend.
> 
> I'll put the challenge out again for anyone to get their vendors to join the site, not as a vendor or sponsor, just a member and they can put their URL in their signature line.


Hmm...interesting, tbh I havent known my guys long enough nor do I have a close enough relationship with them to where I would feel comfortable making such a request and "marketing" Puff to them. So I wouldnt be the guy, but I like the idea of vendors being active members.

As for why they left, I wasnt here and didnt see it but a few things could be assumed. I guess it virtually creates a place for reviews and establishes accountability. Even though Habanos retailers are dealing in grey market goods, theyre shipping to a US free market economy where competition is high and quality of service & product is expected. Ill spare you the apples to oranges comparisons. I guess as a vendor you could try to play games and get away with it under the mentality that there isnt anywhere else for the consumer to go but its just not the case. A newcomer may only have one source today but 5 years in he/she will have several to choose from. While the vendors are accountable, the reviewers are not and the internet can be a harsh place with its inherent anonymity.

But then the discussion segues back into poorly educated newbs slamming good vendors which I havent personally seen but could understand how it would spread like wildfire. Also, I havent been here since '97 like you Pyro so wth do I know?


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## OnePyroTec (Dec 11, 1997)

I can tell you for sure, one vendor/member left because of a self proclaimed educated FOG who publicly slammed a X-Mas gift because the quality of the smoke wasn't top shelf. Dozens of gifts were sent unannounced that year, yet it took one moron to act the fool to ruin it.

You wouldn't be "marketing" puff to anyone. Most vendors are cigar smokers so you would only be asking them to join the forum as a member. The OLD guys & gals who were here were members first who did actually get into real cigar discussions. They were vendors second who did offer specials to the other members who lived outside the US. YES, through PM's, some did cross the grey area and shipped here...some people who act the fool never were sold a single cigar.

EDIT: If I'm going to lay some cards on the table, I may as well put a lot of blame where it belongs too. There is a cigar forum where the owners live in the RENO area (omitting the site's name). Several years ago they were having huge HERFS with TONS of boxes "donated" from overseas vendors who were also advertisers (some used Club Stogie also) as well as "domestic" vendors who also donated. The OWNERS had a meeting in their suite at the hotel where the HERF was at, and I was there stuffing goody bags. Came the time for all the ISOM cigars and they had a meeting...they took a vote and the majority rule was not to hand out ANY of the ISOM cigars that were donated for the HERF and the members who had flown in from around the country (some farther). They used the "legal" issue and they would just call those cigars as payment for being able to advertise. I was also a paid advertiser there at the time as well and felt as tho the overseas guys were USED. I said something...a small argument came about...I left the room. Later ONE of the owners, I'll just call him Rick S. got up and passed out his entire "cut" of the cigars. ONE other owner followed suit (out of guilt). Myself and a couple other took it upon ourselves to let the overseas guys know what happened and how they were used. We were banned....I'm still friends with Rick S. to this day.


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## Aithos (Jul 13, 2014)

Flapjack23 said:


> I dont like the idea of a list of vendors being posted on an open forum. Much too easy for someone who wishes to stop those vendors from sending items into the US to get access and put a stop to it.


After reading the rest of the posts I'm editing my comment. I still agree with Flapjack that a list of vendors in an open forum is a bad idea, 100 posts and 90 days is still an open forum, anyone can get in and it isn't invite only. You can say "the government knows" and that's both conjecture and pretty naive, I can tell you right now they don't troll the Internet searching vendors and attempting to order cigars to see who is and isn't actually selling CC. That would be really stupid on their part because it would involve a ton of time/money/research/knowledge to obtain PROOF that a vendor is selling CC. It is a lot more likely they are watching forums waiting for people to post *PROOF* of illegal activity where no actual time/effort/money would be involved on their part. Just because it's a "don't ask don't tell" kind of thing and it's talked about doesn't make it a good idea to actually openly discuss things.

I'm a new member and I'm in the camp of don't post any kind of specifics, vendors, splits or otherwise.


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

madmarvcr said:


> I don't mind a list of vendors. What I don't want is it turning into vendor bashing like happens all the time in General forum


Never realised it is allowed in the general forum.
But i took a look and you are right.
This one really made me laugh.
The vendor is no good.
Because this guy can't get it at the price he wants!
http://www.cigarforums.net/forums/v...ervice-why-i-quit-cigars-international-6.html


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## Rock31 (Sep 30, 2010)

TonyBrooklyn said:


> Never realised it is allowed in the general forum.
> But i took a look and you are right.
> This one really made me laugh.
> The vendor is no good.
> ...


One of the best threads on that side in quite some time


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## Myrddwn (Jun 16, 2013)

I'm completely new here in this forum, have never smoked nor ordered CCs, and I support not naming vendors.
I can easily see the damage that could be done openly naming vendors. I'm willing to put in my time, make friends, etc; and I'm not really one to make online friends. I come on here twice a week or so, poke around, read a lot, absorb the awesome wisdom being shared, and just quietly do my thing. I don't have much wisdom to share myself, so I guess I don't see I would have much to offer in the way of friendships. I much prefer in person relationships, so maybe when i find someone local? Anyway, I like the forum the way it is, even though it makes things much more difficult for me. I don't mind difficult.


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## Reggie (Oct 21, 2013)

TonyBrooklyn said:


> Never realised it is allowed in the general forum.
> But i took a look and you are right.
> This one really made me laugh.
> The vendor is no good.
> ...


I just need someone to point me to the CC vendor that has MMAO...

(Just kidding )


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## Ethernomad (Aug 23, 2013)

Is a vendor list a bad idea? Not really.

A few here have commented gripes and concerns over one-night-stand PMers, who want a vendor or two and then they're gone from the community. Posting a trusted vendor list would completely eliminate that sort of PM behavior. Others have mentioned the possibility of directing unwanted attention to sources and to Puff. That is certainly a noble cause for secrecy but as others have mentioned, vendor lists are literally a Google search away. I am currently in the midst of doing my homework. I easily found the vendor review site, and have poured through Puff along with other online forums looking for breadcrumbs and reassurance. But my mind is still filled with questions and uncertainty.

To me, trust is one of the greatest attributes of the Puff community. It's something that is cultivated in all Newbies by way of the earnest sharing of legitimate information and careful overwatch of contests and trades. Young puffers devour the suggestions and wisdom of established members. From what I can tell so far, that's what this community is all about; sharing wisdom and information (and cigars).

The point I'm making is that I trust the established members of the Puff community. I respect their wisdom and value their opinions. That's what is missing from the easy to find vendor review sites. I read through all their comments and have no idea who any of the posters are. I'm wondering in the back of my mind whether it might be the vendors themselves posting all the positive reviews. Personally, I am far more interested in reading about sources that have yielded success for other puffers. If for no better reason than to avoid making a costly mistake borne out of ignorance.


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## jp1979 (Sep 12, 2013)

i still think its a bad idea, 2-3 months later, I never asked anyone, I figured it out on my own. Took some google searchs, some reading, a trial order or two but you figure it out. I have peeps on here who i chat with regularly that have asked me for my vendors and i have happily obliged. One of my main problems with it is that the same people that complain about their Famous order not getting there in 4 days will be pissing off the vendors with emails everyday wondering where their stuff is. God forbid if they need a reship, they will have to wait 30 days for that.


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## Sigaar (Sep 19, 2014)

This information is available on the web, which is where I found it before placing and receiving my first order. Like Justin, I never asked anyone here. I thought about it, but seems a touchy subject, so passed on the idea. I've also placed a second small order with another vendor so hopefully, I'll have at least two vendors. 

With this info being pretty easy to find, I don't think having a locked thread on LEGIT vendors would be a big deal, but it's not my forum, so not my rules. Honestly, I'm okay either way


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## cakeanddottle (Mar 14, 2011)

I feel that someone who comes about their vendor knowledge the old fashioned way will be less likely to do or say anything that may draw attention to or compromise a vendor. Things are going to change dramatically soon enough, I say leave things as they are because I'm sure all of us here are perfectly happy with the current arrangement.


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## T.E.Fox (Jul 11, 2013)

The information is out there for anyone who cares enough to do the research, which seems to be enough alone to weed out the less respectful customers on this side of things. The lack of open sources does promote closer relationships among members here, which can't be a bad thing. I've seen the types that we don't want around - bashing vendors, making accusations of fakes and whatnot on other sites around the place, and truth be told, when they post pictures, everything seemed in order for genuine articles. Ignorance breeds arrogance in the world of CC's it seems, so a system that promotes experience required before rewards given seems logical to me. CC's are of course legal on our side of the pond, so the issue isn't so much of a hot topic, but it'd be nice to see some vendors being a bit more discreet for those of us with horrible taxes to deal with :laugh:


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## Ethernomad (Aug 23, 2013)

Alright, here's an idea. Instead of a trusted vendor list, how about a sticky with tips on things like:

- How to spot a fake CC, band, box, seal, etc.
- What to look for when considering placing an order with a vendor.
- What to look out for when considering a particular vendor.
- Common vendor behaviors, and why they do it.

This list could go on. I'm at a point where I'm less interested in seeing a list of sources and more interested in seeing if I'm on the right track. I mentioned before that my biggest fear is not confiscation or other delivery failures, but paying for authenticity and receiving otherwise. Having never smoked a CC I don't trust my own ability to distinguish authenticity. And I imagine I speak for many who share the same concern.


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## jp1979 (Sep 12, 2013)

Ethernomad said:


> Alright, here's an idea. Instead of a trusted vendor list, how about a sticky with tips on things like:
> 
> - How to spot a fake CC, band, box, seal, etc.
> - What to look for when considering placing an order with a vendor.
> ...


Again, all this information is out there for anyone to find and has been discusses here many times if some searches for it they will find it.


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## Ethernomad (Aug 23, 2013)

Wouldn't a topic which gets continually discussed, as you say, make for a good sticky? Isn't that the point of a sticky?


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## Quint (Oct 19, 2006)

I am in the camp that it would be nice to share sources, information, and personal opinions on particular vendors. It seems that getting a source is a right of passage which I also think is sort of a cool thing. So as you can see I am torn. I've gone through the right of passage many years ago, made mistakes, made friends, went to herfs, made contacts. Felt pretty good. Almost like a badge of honor. And maybe that badge of honor is manifested as described below.

This is my idea, make a thread that is invitation only. Start with some of the established regulars and Mods, and then in order to have the privilege you need to be invited by a sponsor, sort of speak, or you can contact a moderator and ask. The moderator can review your time and contribution to the forum and accept or deny the request. The denial could be a very simple, We're very happy to have you as a member of Puff but feel more time and participation is required before extending this privilege. Please feel free to inquire again in a few months, or something of that nature.

The advantages of being able to discuss vendors is obvious. We can share experience's, inquire as to authenticity, share better, more reliable sources. Have strict rules as what can be posted as far as reviewing a vendor, good or bad. If you had a problem just state the issue so it can be discussed, don't bash and bad mouth. If there was a counterfeit issue state how you found out it was counterfeit. This especially is beneficial in my opinion. LCDH websites offer ways to confirm authenticity so there should be no arguments. Even information on products getting seized, e.i., is there one vendor or another that seems to get confiscated more often then vendor xyz. All this info helps the community IMO. Yes there are dozens of vendors that can be found online, some legit, others not, and there are some vendors that only a few know about and are not so easy to find that provide excellent product and customer service._Besides the few who are not going to share their "special top secret" vendor with anybody but the select few because your not entitled_ , why not have a place were the brethren can share these things. May take a little time as to how to figure out the logistics of how it would work but there are many established good standing brethren here that could all contribute to how the whole thing could work.

Just thought I'd share a couple of quick thoughts. In other words my measly 2 cents lol


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## T.E.Fox (Jul 11, 2013)

A good point that is. Someone made mention of a video series on youtube by a chap that covers most, if not all the points of CC production; discussing the various styles of labels, seals, stamps, bands or otherwise which will give you a pretty fair indication on how to spot fakes and go about one's business with some sort of etiquette. Perhaps a well formatted summary of such info would be a useful tool for the newcomers. No names would need to be dropped, and with any luck it would make people think a bit harder when they get a slightly suspect box before going off on a tangent and slagging vendors all over the internet. Again it's the same info as is already out there, but going on that theory then we may as well not have this section at all, which would be a terrible shame.


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## Cigarer (Apr 12, 2014)

Even though I've never ordered and do not have a vendor I have a fairly good idea what area to purchase them from. I don't expect to get spoon fed, but it would be nice to have a definite go to reference sticky for certain info. 

I wouldn't give out the name to my drug dealer and his contact info to a bunch of random people. Closer friends maybe but not for the masses. (As an example - I don't have a dealer and not into drugs)


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## ermtpa (Apr 5, 2013)

I am in the same situation as Cigarer. Never ordered online and do not have a vendor. I purchase a box or two when I go out of country but have never tried the online transaction as there are so many what ifs. I understand the need to keep things quiet and to build relationships within the forum but a reference sticky would be nice so you know you are going in the right direction and not smoking something you think is legit and it's not. Just my 2 cents.


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## Ethernomad (Aug 23, 2013)

Guys, I think the way this will have to work is, if we want it done we should do it ourselves. I don't think the Mods are on board with a trusted vendor list. I also don't think they're going to Sticky a blank thread for us. If we, being Habano Newbs, start scouring the old posts and pasting all the valuable information nuggets into one thread, then the Mods might be inclined to sprinkle the Sticky Dust.

I sort of like the name "Habano Newbs Info".

:rockon: Who's on board?!? :rockon:


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## MDSPHOTO (Sep 10, 2013)

Ethernomad said:


> Guys, I think the way this will have to work is, if we want it done we should do it ourselves. I don't think the Mods are on board with a trusted vendor list. I also don't think they're going to Sticky a blank thread for us. If we, being Habano Newbs, start scouring the old posts and pasting all the valuable information nuggets into one thread, then the Mods might be inclined to sprinkle the Sticky Dust.
> 
> I sort of like the name "Habano Newbs Info".
> 
> :rockon: Who's on board?!? :rockon:


I was thinking to myself the other day it would be great to pull all those tid bit threads together into a sticky and delete the pages and pages of banter that accompanies them, but that's a lot of time and work. As for pulling sources out of old threads and Posting a list here, it most likely would land you on double secret probation.


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## Cigarer (Apr 12, 2014)

Just thinking out loud here but another member mentored earlier about giving us all the info without contributing to the forum and building relationship s. Wouldn't that point defeat the purpose of putting a post/Join date limit before we reach this section


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