# Smoking in Washington B&M's????



## Zoomschwortz

I caught something on the radio this morning about smoking cigars in Washington state B&M's but haven't been able to find it on the net.

As I recall, they are collecting signatures for a bill (believe they said #1016) to allow cigar smoking in B&M's that get $26,000 in cigar sales a year.

EDIT: I found it http://blogs.thenewstribune.com/politics/2008/03/19/the_democratic_process_at_work_i_1016_wo

http://www.cigarwa.com/

Thanks
Ken


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## lenguamor

Thanks for posting this, Ken. I wasn't aware of the initiative.

I'd love for the local cigar bars like the one in El Gaucho (best in the city) to be able to do business again.

It's a sad comment on our state government though, that we have to be governed via initiatives because the legislatures are just puddles of inactivity - except where it concerns spending money.

The ironic part is that the majority of the time, no matter the majority by which an initiative passes the state will sue to quash it and the state supreme court will rule in the state's favor.

If Tim Eyman runs for Governor next election I'll vote for him.


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## Zoomschwortz

A lot of bars have been hurt by the no smoking ban. Maybe they will start selling cigars to get in on this.


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## lenguamor

Zoomschwortz said:


> A lot of bars have been hurt by the no smoking ban. Maybe they will start selling cigars to get in on this.


If the drafters of this initiative overreach and try to essentially undo the ban, though, they will fail.

The smoking ban in effect was passed by an overwhelming majority and that same majority will squash it if they feel they are going to back to being exposed to clouds of noxious cigarette smoke in bars.

I'd like to see the initiative's language limited to establishing B&Ms and cigar bars - rooms specifically set aside for cigar smokers - as exemptions to the ban...but leave the ban in place.

Otherwise it's going to be a tough sell; getting it on the ballot is the easy part - Seattle must have the densest population of cigarette smokers outside of Asia.

But getting that 60+% that voted the ban in to allow any exemption at all is going to be nearly impossible...make them believe that the initiative will roll back the clock, and this will all be for nothing.

Even I would be hard-pressed to justify signing a petition for an initiative that would bring smoking back to *all* bars.


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## lenguamor

Looks like the language is sufficiently ambiguous to allow for the cigarette industry to gain a foothold to completely reversing the ban in the courts.

Maybe one of our attorney brothers or sisters would be kind enough to offer some insight from a legal standpoint.


The Initiative:

AN ACT Relating to smoking in public
places; amending RCW 70.160.020; and
creating new sections.
BE IT ENACTED BY THE PEOPLE OF
THE STATE OF WASHINGTON:
Sec. 1. RCW 70.160.020 and 2006 c 2 s 2
are each amended to read as follows:
As used in this chapter, the following
terms have the meanings indicated unless
the context clearly indicates otherwise.
(1) “Smoke” or “smoking” means the
carrying or smoking of any kind of lighted
pipe, cigar, cigarette, or any other lighted
smoking equipment.
(2) “Public place” means that portion of
any building or vehicle used by and open
to the public, regardless of whether the
building or vehicle is owned in whole or in
part by private persons or entities, the state
of Washington, or other public entity, and
regardless of whether a fee is charged for
admission, and includes a presumptively
reasonable minimum distance, as set
forth in RCW 70.160.075, of twenty-five
feet from entrances, exits, windows that
open, and ventilation intakes that serve an
enclosed area where smoking is prohibited.
A public place does not include a private
residence unless the private residence is
used to provide licensed child care, foster
care, adult care, or other similar social
service care on the premises.
Public places include, but are not limited
to: Schools, elevators, public conveyances
or transportation facilities, museums,
concert halls, theaters, auditoriums,
exhibition halls, indoor sports arenas,
hospitals, nursing homes, health care
facilities or clinics, enclosed shopping
centers, retail stores, retail service
establishments, financial institutions,
educational facilities, ticket areas, public
hearing facilities, state legislative chambers
and immediately adjacent hallways, public
restrooms, libraries, restaurants, waiting
areas, lobbies, bars, taverns, bowling alleys,
skating rinks, casinos, reception areas, and
no less than seventy-five percent of the
sleeping quarters within a hotel or motel
that are rented to guests. A public place
does not include ((a private residence))
cigar stores or cigar bars. This chapter is
not intended to restrict smoking in private
facilities which are occasionally open to
the public except upon the occasions when
the facility is open to the public.
(3) “Place of employment” means
any area under the control of a public
or private employer which employees
are required to pass through during the
course of employment, including, but
not limited to: Entrances and exits to the
places of employment, and including
a presumptively reasonable minimum
distance, as set forth in RCW 70.160.075,
of twenty-five feet from entrances, exits,
windows that open, and ventilation intakes
that serve an enclosed area where smoking
is prohibited; work areas; restrooms;
conference and classrooms; break rooms
and cafeterias; and other common areas. A
private residence or home-based business,
unless used to provide licensed child care,
foster care, adult care, or other similar
social service care on the premises, is
not a place of employment. “Place of
employment” does not include cigar stores
or cigar bars. This chapter is not intended to
restrict smoking in private facilities which
are occasionally open to the public except
upon the occasions when the facility is
open to the public.
(4) “Cigar store” means a business that is
an establishment (a) open to the public; (b)
where smoking is permitted; (c) designated
RCW 9A.46.020 applies to any conduct constituting harassment against a petition signature gatherer.
This penalty does not preclude the victim from seeking any other remedy otherwise available under law.
and clearly advertised as a place that sells
tobacco; (d) where the primary activity of
the business is the sale of tobacco products
and accessories, other than cigarettes, and
the sale of other products is incidental to
the business; and (e) where persons under
the age of eighteen are prohibited.
(5) “Cigar bar” means a business that is
an establishment (a) open to the public; (b)
where smoking is permitted; (c) that is a bar
devoted to the sale and service of alcoholic
beverages or on-premises consumption and
where the service of food is only incidental
to the consumption of such beverages; (d)
advertised and engaged in the business of
selling cigars; (e) and generates twentyfive
thousand ($25,000.00) or more of the
business’s annual gross income from the
on-site sale of cigars.
New Section. Sec. 2. The provisions
of this act are to be liberally construed to
effectuate the intent, policies, and purposes
of this act.
New Section. Sec. 3. If any provision
of this act or its applicatoin to any person or
circumstance is held invalid, the remainder
of the act or the application of the provision
to other persons or curcumstances is not
affected.
New Section. Sec. 4. This act may
be known and cited as the cigar bar relief
act.


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## D Taylor

*Re: Smoking in Washington B&M's???? I-1016 sponsor speaks*

Hello everyone,

Dale Taylor here. I am the president of the Cigar Association of Washington and I work for Rain City Cigar in Seattle. The owner of Rain City is the sponsor of Initiative 1016.

I found this site through a google search on I-1016 and thought I would sign up and let you know what is going on.

This initiative will do three things:

1. It will create and exemption for cigar stores. Cigar stores are defined as retail establishments that derive the greatest percentage of their product sales from the sale of cigars. If a stores sells more cigarettes than cigars they wont be able to smoke there.

2. It will create and exemption for cigar bars. A cigar bar is defined as an establishment that is signed, marketed and advertised as a cigar bar. They must also establish and maintain $25,000 worth of retail cigar sales per year or they will not qualify to be a cigar bar.

3. It will exempt "private facilities" from the ban. Private facilities means the Elks, Moose, Eagles, VFW, American Legion, ,etc.

Much is being made of this third part and some are predicting it will be the downfall of I-1016. We do not believe this is true and here is why.

The language in I-1016 regarding private facilities is the same language that was used in I-901, the initiative that imposed the smoking ban. In other words, what our opposition is now complaining about was in fact written by them!

They are claiming that existing bars, taverns, restraunts, pubs, etc... will simply say they are a private club, charge $1-5.00 for membership and allow smoking. Unfortunately for them this cannot happen like that.

According to Washington state liquor laws, the moment an establishment declares themselves a private club and charges a membership fee, they are no longer "open to the public". That means that every single person who patronizes that establishment must be a member to enter it.

Now, if statistics are true and only about 17-20% of the population smokes, they have just limited themselves to catering to only that population.

It is also possible (and we are checking on this) that once they declare themselves "private" they may have to wait a period of one year just to apply for a "Club Liquor License".

How many existing businesses do you think will, A. Limit themselves to such a small clientele. B. Potentially forgo their main souce of revenue for one year and C. Pay the necessary fees for that privilage?

This "charge a buck - now I'm a private club" thing is nothing but a red herring by the opposition designed to create fear in the general population.

We know that Initiative 1016 will not please everyone. We have been told that it goes to far and we have been told that it doe's not go far enough. Right now we have NOTHING, I-1016 will give us SOMETHING. Last I checked, something is better than nothing.

This is a pure grass roots effort. There are no big dollars involved from anywhere. We are depending on tobacco retailers across the state to join the Cigar Association of Washington, www.cigarwa.com and on the contributions of people like you to help us fund this effort and get it done.

If you are interested in helping with the effort, here's what you can do:

Post messages supporting our efforts on cigar boards like this one. There are many and I cannot be everywhere.

Talk to your local B&M, smokeshop, tobacconist etc, and encourage them to contact us and get involved.

Download the petition from our website and collect signatures for us. There is a link at the bottom of the page to a .pdf file. Remember that it must be 11" x 17" and printed on both sides! You can take the file to a local Kinkos or other print shop and they will do it for you for about 20 cents per copy.

This is the very best shot we have had at getting this done since I-901 passed 2.5 years ago. The legislature has failed to act for three sessions now, so we are taking it to the people via the initiative process.

The people need not fear this initiative. IT WILL NOT OVERTURN THE EXISTING SMOKING BAN. It will only allow smoking in places that non smokers never went before and would'nt go to if it passes.

This is our chance to tell the "we want to control your life crowd" that "we" are not going to take it anymore!

If you have any questions or want to help out, please contact me at [email protected]

Thank you all for your interest and support.

Regards,

Dale Taylor
President Cigar Association of Washington
5963 Corson Ave. S. Suite 130
Seattle, WA 98108
206-767-2048
[email protected]
www.cigarwa.com


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## jaycarla

Dale, thanks for the info! Here is to hoping common sense CAN prevail!!

It will be tough, but like you said, something is better than nothing.


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## Zoomschwortz

Thanks Dale,

The petition made it's rounds last Saturday night at Smokey Joe's. Rolf picked it up at Rain City before coming to the Herf.

The last time I saw it, it was nearly full and the manager was making sure everyone had a chance to sign.

Take care
Ken


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## Todd W

Well, it got Ken Schram's seal of approval, for what it's worth. He brings up a good point in his commentary about not scaring away the anti-smoker. We have to get the message through that this is not about over-turning the ban. 

Now I know what it feels like to be in a special interest group.


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## D Taylor

Last night I posted the following:

They are claiming that existing bars, taverns, restraunts, pubs, etc... will simply say they are a private club, charge $1-5.00 for membership and allow smoking. Unfortunately for them this cannot happen like that.

According to Washington state liquor laws, the moment an establishment declares themselves a private club and charges a membership fee, they are no longer "open to the public". That means that every single person who patronizes that establishment must be a member to enter it.

Now, if statistics are true and only about 17-20% of the population smokes, they have just limited themselves to catering to only that population.

It is also possible (and we are checking on this) that once they declare themselves "private" they may have to wait a period of one year just to apply for a "Club Liquor License".

How many existing businesses do you think will, A. Limit themselves to such a small clientele. B. Potentially forgo their main souce of revenue for one year and C. Pay the necessary fees for that privilage?

What I wrote last night about establishments trying to go private and that they might have to wait a year without a liquor license, is in fact true. We got the documentation from the liquor board this morning. 

If an existing establishment, (for profit or not) serving alcohol to the public wants to delcare it'self a private club, it forfeits its "public" liquor license. It must opperate for one year as a "private" club without a liquor license before it can apply for a private club liquor license.

This private club must also meet several requirement for being a legitimate private club. They must have officers, a board of directors, club rules, and bylaws (no easy thing, believe me!) They must issue membership cards and rules governing visitors. This news effectively takes away the arguements of the opposition on this subject.

There was no new media coverage today that I know of. I listened to a recording of "The Comentators" from KVI 570 AM from yesterday. I wish they had had us on the show. It was a positive presentation with both Schramm and Carlson on our side. I would say that 90% of the callers were with us as well with many "non smokers" offering their blessing and support.

Petitions are on the move across the state. We are finding that allies we did'nt even know we had are busy distributing petitions!

Now what we need is signatures! Lot's of them! 225,000 valid signatures. The true goal is 250,000 to 280,00 to have a buffer for errors like un-registered voters.

As we have stated previously, we are not using paid signatures gatherers. This is totally a grass roots effort by a statewide group of small business owners to slightly modify an overly extreme law for the benefit of their industry and the consumers they serve.

We need your help.

If you are willing to circulate a single petition. We need your help.
If you are willing to volunteer to carry petitions to the public. We need your help.
If you are willing to volunter to transport petitions regionally. We need your help. 
If you are willing to simply spread the word as far and as wide as you can, and promote this effort. We need your help.

And, if you are willing to make a financial contribution to the Cigar Association of Washington in support of this effort. We need your help.

This is how grass roots democracy works. When the single cigar smoker works with his brother cigar smokers. When businesses put aside their competitiveness and join together. When businesses and their consumers join together. That is a recipie for success!

Regards,

Dale Taylor
President - Cigar Association of Washington
www.cigarwa.com
[email protected]
206-767-2048


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## roscoe

Dale,

I can tell you this. We were a cigar club since 94 and we would meet once per month at a catering facility. When we saw the NJ law coming down we asked our members if they would like to invest in a private club. We had 100 members at the time and 55 decided to put up money to the tune of 50k. Check us out at http://www.metrocigar.com

We leased 4200 sq ft in a commercial complex, gutted it, and built a fine club that now has 24/7 access and the caterer comes to us now once per month. We have 150 members and last year grossed 150k. Since we opened in June of 06 we never had a negative month financially. We have no liquor license and sell no tobacco products or food. The club is completely member run with no employees.

I have been in contact with two groups in WA who are interested in opening up a club but need direction. We have now formed the IACC http://www.cigarclubs.org. We offer seminars to groups around the country who are looking to duplicate our successes in NJ. The website is still under construction so all the info will not be there.

We have recently formed a relationship with Altadis who will sponsor part of the fee and provide lots of product, advertising material and event participation to a new club that has gone through our seminars; upwards of 3-4k


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## lenguamor

roscoe said:


> Dale,
> 
> I can tell you this. We were a cigar club since 94 and we would meet once per month at a catering facility. When we saw the NJ law coming down we asked our members if they would like to invest in a private club. We had 100 members at the time and 55 decided to put up money to the tune of 50k. Check us out at http://www.metrocigar.com
> 
> We leased 4200 sq ft in a commercial complex, gutted it, and built a fine club that now has 24/7 access and the caterer comes to us now once per month. We have 150 members and last year grossed 150k. Since we opened in June of 06 we never had a negative month financially. We have no liquor license and sell no tobacco products or food. The club is completely member run with no employees.
> 
> I have been in contact with two groups in WA who are interested in opening up a club but need direction. We have now formed the IACC http://www.cigarclubs.org. We offer seminars to groups around the country who are looking to duplicate our successes in NJ. The website is still under construction so all the info will not be there.
> 
> We have recently formed a relationship with Altadis who will sponsor part of the fee and provide lots of product, advertising material and event participation to a new club that has gone through our seminars; upwards of 3-4k


I applaud you and your peers for your initiative. This is a fantastic idea.


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## D Taylor

I think the Metro Society is a great idea and if anyone here in Washington want to start one up that is great too.

What we are trying to do here in Washington with Initiative 1016 is change an overly strict law to the benefit of the broader population of cigar smokers and small business owners.

Regards,

Dale Taylor
President - Cigar Association of Washington
206-767-2048
www.cigarwa.com
[email protected]


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## mugwump

What a great initiative. After spending last week enjoying the cigar bars and lounges in sunny Florida I flew home on Alaska Airlines and was flipping through the in-flight magazine when I stumbled on an old article about El Gaucho. It raved about its cigar bar and then an added footnote pointed out how the non-smoking law passed in 2005 had led to its closure. What a heartbreaker.


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## Todd W

I agree -- it's a shame to see a fine establishment like that close its cigar bar. I was in Vancouver, WA over the weekend, and found that I was telling fellow BOTL about the initiative for the first time. Please make sure you are spreading the word, and the petition as far and wide as you can. 1016 is going to be a nail-biter, given that this is a general election year. We have to educate as many non-smokers out there as possible. 

Remember, cigarette smoking is taboo now.


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## JAK

I just signed the petition today


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## nimravus01

There does not seem to be any provisions for pipe smokers in 1016... Will 1016 cover, ipso facto, pipe smokers? Or is this just a cigar thing? I like to think of us, (cigar and pipe smokers,) as one group.


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## nimravus01

A similar bill in in NH... Looks promising, and, if they can do it, how about Wa?

http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showthread.php?t=153769



> *NH Cigar Bar Exemption Looks to Have Support in Legislature
> *HB1457 would define a "Smoking bar" as an establishment that exclusively occupies an enclosed indoor space where the primary business is the retail sale of tobacco products for consumption on the premises. Business must possess a retail tobacco sales license. Additionally, that business may derive revenue from the sale of food, alcohol, and other beverages for consumption on the premises. HB1457 requires minors be prohibited.


Still no answer to my previous question though, so, I'll rephrase.

Since the Wa. 1016 says "cigar bar," will pipe smokers be covered or only cigars? This may sound obvious to some of you, but, you never know how literally the law makers/enforcers will read it.


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## Sanitariumite

This is fantastic! I'll definitely be making my way to one of the locations with the petition asap.


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## TanZ2005

Is there any updates to this? I would be interested in a count! Anyone checking. We need this on the Ballet. 

James.


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## Zoomschwortz

TanZ2005 said:


> Is there any updates to this? I would be interested in a count! Anyone checking. We need this on the Ballet.
> 
> James.


:tpd::tpd:


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## Todd W

We fell short by 12,000 signatures. 
Here it is:

 To all interested parties,

The numbers have been tallied, and we fell shot of our goal of 225,000 valid signatures. As of 3 pm today, we had collected over 213,000 signatures.
The odds were against us to start as no all volunteer initiative has made it on to the general election, but for the previous efforts of the Washington Teachers Union, in recent years. 

The collection of cigar stores, tobacco shops, former cigar bars, private clubs and all citizens who all took part in the efforts to modify the existing ban, should all take great pride in the fact that without any large money contributed by outside special interest groups we almost got there. This was no small feat!

Just as our opponents failed the first time, before passing the current draconian smoking ban (901), so too will we be back again. We have learned much in the process, and we will be better prepared the next time through. There is honor in fighting to change unjust laws and travesty in doing nothing at all. 

We will continue to work to change the law as is written, starting with the legislature in January. Stay tuned.

With kind regards,

Joe Arundel
Rain City Cigar
206-767-3619


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## Sanitariumite

I signed the last open slot on the last available copy at Smokey Joe's on Tuesday, and I'll definitely sign it again when the new one comes around. Sounds like we did alright....


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## Zoomschwortz

Todd W said:


> We fell short by 12,000 signatures.
> Here it is:
> 
> To all interested parties,
> 
> The numbers have been tallied, and we fell shot of our goal of 225,000 valid signatures. As of 3 pm today, we had collected over 213,000 signatures.
> The odds were against us to start as no all volunteer initiative has made it on to the general election, but for the previous efforts of the Washington Teachers Union, in recent years.
> 
> The collection of cigar stores, tobacco shops, former cigar bars, private clubs and all citizens who all took part in the efforts to modify the existing ban, should all take great pride in the fact that without any large money contributed by outside special interest groups we almost got there. This was no small feat!
> 
> Just as our opponents failed the first time, before passing the current draconian smoking ban (901), so too will we be back again. We have learned much in the process, and we will be better prepared the next time through. There is honor in fighting to change unjust laws and travesty in doing nothing at all.
> 
> We will continue to work to change the law as is written, starting with the legislature in January. Stay tuned.
> 
> With kind regards,
> 
> Joe Arundel
> Rain City Cigar
> 206-767-3619


BUMMER, but, maybe it is for the best, this time.

The chance of it passing this November would be slight at best considering the large turnout you can expect from Seattle.

Seattle had the largest impact on bringing us things like higher gas taxes, no trapping moles, no baiting for bears, no hunting cougar with hounds and the present no smoking ban.

I believe that we will have a much better chance at getting it passed next year, that is, as long as the next President with a majority in congress, doesn't pass a nation wide ban on smoking, for our own good:mn


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## lenguamor

I hope that the next go-round we can formulate an initiative that both respects the wishes of the 69% of Washington voters who voted the ban into law, and also gives us - CIGAR and PIPE SMOKERS - specific, designated spaces to enjoy our avocation.

I agree that the current law is too broad, but it came about because the cigar industry has continued throughout this fight to throw in its lot with the cigarette industry's losing battle.

Until we formulate an initiative or proposed law which makes provision for cigar/pipe - and cigar/pipe ONLY - spaces, without blocking for the cigarette industry, we will continue to fail. Because the 69% majority that wanted the current ban as law will see our efforts as undermining their mandate.

We HAVE TO set ourselves apart from the cigarette set. We MUST. It is imperative, or we will never again have places like the cigar lounges at El Gaucho and Daniel's, or great cigar bars like Tini Biggs.


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## papajohn67

Zoomschwortz said:


> BUMMER, but, maybe it is for the best, this time.
> 
> The chance of it passing this November would be slight at best considering the large turnout you can expect from Seattle.
> 
> Seattle had the largest impact on bringing us things like higher gas taxes, no trapping moles, no baiting for bears, no hunting cougar with hounds and the present no smoking ban.
> 
> I believe that we will have a much better chance at getting it passed next year, that is, as long as the next President with a majority in congress, doesn't pass a nation wide ban on smoking, for our own good:mn


God Bless the folks from Seattle......from this weeks local newspaper's police blotter in La Conner:

"Tourist from Seattle driving past agricultural land, called 9-11 to complain about slow-moving farm machinery on Chilberg Road, La Conner."

:r :r :r


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## Zoomschwortz

papajohn67 said:


> God Bless the folks from Seattle......from this weeks local newspaper's police blotter in La Conner:
> 
> "Tourist from Seattle driving past agricultural land, called 9-11 to complain about slow-moving farm machinery on Chilberg Road, La Conner."
> 
> :r :r :r


The "slow-moving farm machinery" was most likely going faster than the traffic in downtown Seattle goes.

I was up in your neck of the woods a couple weeks ago. I like it up there:tu

I also love the police blotters in small town papers. It is refreshing when a wife yelling at her husband makes the news, instead of drive by shootings, rape and murder.


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## Papichulo

Zoomschwortz said:


> The "slow-moving farm machinery" was most likely going faster than the traffic in downtown Seattle goes.
> 
> I was up in your neck of the woods a couple weeks ago. I like it up there:tu
> 
> I also love the police blotters in small town papers. It is refreshing when a wife yelling at her husband makes the news, instead of drive by shootings, rape and murder.


is not that the truth? a tool calling 911 on farm equipment. Probably the same dipsht that is for the cigar band.


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## tandblov

lenguamor said:


> I hope that the next go-round we can formulate an initiative that both respects the wishes of the 69% of Washington voters who voted the ban into law, and also gives us - CIGAR and PIPE SMOKERS - specific, designated spaces to enjoy our avocation.
> 
> I agree that the current law is too broad, but it came about because the cigar industry has continued throughout this fight to throw in its lot with the cigarette industry's losing battle.
> 
> Until we formulate an initiative or proposed law which makes provision for cigar/pipe - and cigar/pipe ONLY - spaces, without blocking for the cigarette industry, we will continue to fail. Because the 69% majority that wanted the current ban as law will see our efforts as undermining their mandate.
> 
> We HAVE TO set ourselves apart from the cigarette set. We MUST. It is imperative, or we will never again have places like the cigar lounges at El Gaucho and Daniel's, or great cigar bars like Tini Biggs.


Couldn't have said it better myself. Yes, its true that a business owner should be able to do what they want with their property. However, realistically, if we ever want to smoke a cigar in public again, we must focus on the exclusivity of cigars and pipes from cigarettes. There can be no allowances for cigarette smoking in cigar and pipe establishments (either shops or lounges).

Plus, the stink of a burning cigarette absolutely ruins a good cigar. The fact that Smokey Joe's is, on some nights, almost 1/2 cigarette smokers has become a huge disappointment.

We must separate ourselves or nothing will happen...

:2


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## roscoe

I have just returned from SEA=TAC where I gave a seminar to a group of guys on opening private clubs in the area. They already have two locations and plan two additional ones down the road. One location looks like it's ready to go very shortly. Contact me privately for further contact info regarding these clubs.

Roscoe
Cigarclubs.org


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