# SG & GH tobaccos and the infamous "topping"



## IHT (Dec 27, 2003)

okay, most of us have read the reviews, how ppl always say, "i can't stand that soapy floral scent they add." granted, there are a few that have something extra to them, like 1792. this topic is NOT about them

i've deduced (read: my opnion) that it's not a TOPPING by any stretch. it's that beautiful flavor and aroma of their african fire cured VAs that they throw in there.

what in the world are some of these ppl smoking to make them think that every damn blend by SG and/or GH with the malawi fire cured leaf, or any other african leaf, has a flavor topping?? 
if they would take the time to smoke some of their straight tobacs made from those same african fire cured tobacs, if they can handle them, they'd soon find out that the "floral/soapy" note is coming from that very leaf, not an additive or dressing or topping or casing.

the blind review #2 tobacco is one of these blends. this is the blenders descripton: _"As curly cut, except the wrapper used is dark fired leaf. this grade of tobacco we buy from Tanzania, Uganda, Mozambique and Malawi. The characteristics are all more or less the same: The curing over Smokey fires gives this leaf its distinctive pungent aroma and strong smoke."_
and a snipit from one of their other blends "curly cut", where it references the one above by stating that it's made with only the dark leaf. _"In this tobacco, unlike the twist, which uses all dark leaf,...."_.

maybe i'm biased because i love their blends. the fire cured leaf adds depth, weight, spice, power... it lets you know YOU'RE SMOKIN! you can search for hints of this or that, or you can kick back and get kicked in the teeth by in your face spice and nicotine power - it's beautiful, it's not one dimensional unless you're lazy.

reading reviews by some prominent members of the pipe communities, you'd think that they washed the tins in ivory soap and had no body, no power, no flavor... other than floral soap.
well, screw them if they can't stand a blend that doesn't have orientals or latakia to junk up the taste!! 

i would go on, but i've rambled enough.

do any of you find it soapy and floral?


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## EvanS (Dec 29, 2006)

I'm with you Greg. It always seemed obvious to me that the soap/floral hints were in fact an essence of leaf and not a topping or flavoring. And instead of soapy I tend to think of this characteristic as vaguely Almondine. Now, I HAVE had a couple of GH blends that REALLY did have a perfumy-ness to them, Strong and acrid...but that's another story. GH Kentucky Nougat comes to mind. But even then I found that this settles down to leave a nice wash to the last 2/3 of the bowl. But that 1st 3rd was a bitch. 

I won't smoke SG or GH all the time, but they are unique and IMO meticulously blended with a depth and grace that isn't much found elsewhere. Matter of fact Kendal Cream Flake, Rum Flake, Kendal Kentucky, Louisiana Flake, St James Flake, Best Brown, Chocolate Flake, Bobs Chocolate Flake are some of my absolute favorite blends, of any kind. Not to mention the ropes and twists....


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## jgros001 (Jun 14, 2005)

I agree and couldn't really understand some of the topping issues as I went to their web pages and they are pretty clear as to when a flavoring or topping has been added.

http://www.gawithhoggarth.co.uk/kendal.asp

http://www.samuelgawith.co.uk/default.asp?PageId=3&CatId=2


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## Mad Hatter (Apr 8, 2007)

I'm gonna take the middle ground on this one Greg. You guys know I *love *my SG and G&H for the most part. Of the SG I regularly smoke Navy Flake, FVF, Bracken Flake, Grousemoor, Kendal Cream Flake, Balkan Flake, Chocolate Flake, St James Flake, Skiff Mixture and G&H twists. I've also tried SL, Balkan Mixture, broken Scotch cake, Rum Flake, Perfection and maybe a couple others.

While the majority of the SG have a distinct SG taste in the background, and the ropes have their own distinct flavor as well its not the floral nor soapy taste that you hear about so often, IMO. That taste I have only experienced with Grousemoor, Rum Flake, and Scotch Cake. Its a backlying flavor, but to me not in any way, shape, or form close to that other SG flavor. It tastes like freaking flowers and its not always bad, but rather depends on the flavor that accompanies it.

But anyway, I really think the floral taste comes from one of the light VAs they mix in these tobaccos that aren't present in the other blends because I know there were light flecks in the otherwise dark Rum Flake and the other two were mixes of light and medium colored tabaks.

Now the soap is another matter. Funny enough just a few months ago I looked at it the way you spelled it out...... well these blokes :r don't know what theyre talking about. Sure maybe it tastes like flowers, but soap? Then one day I'm sitting here puffing a bowl of Grousemoor, which I think is an awesome offset balance of the floral and tobacco tastes, and I'm almost to the half a bowl point in a 126, tasted fine and dandy, smoking cool and really bringing out the flavor, and *BAM!!! *one puff and out of nowhere it was as if I had stuck a bar of Ivory in my mouth. I mean it tasted exactly like soap...... no floral nothing. It came in one puff and if I remember right, I DGT'd the remainder. And that was the only time I ever tasted soap, but if it ever happens to you, you'll understand perfectly.

But anyway, I don't think its a topping anymore, but most likely comes from one of the light VAs in the three blends mentioned above, whatever the common denominator is.


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## IHT (Dec 27, 2003)

joe, the reason for this topic is because i jsut smoked my first sample of GH broken scotch cake, and i detected no topping/casing or anything in it.

i actually came home and did a quick search of its contents because it reminds me of the old PS Bullseye flake i had from monsoon (from the 80s). that aged VA taste, it's so closely flavored like malawi or zimbabwe leaf...

so, i'll get more of that, for sure. hard to believe that is a straight VA, i thought for sure it had a light perique-ness to it, but could be the spice from the african leaf.

great blend, thanks.


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## Mad Hatter (Apr 8, 2007)

IHT said:


> joe, the reason for this topic is because i jsut smoked my first sample of GH broken scotch cake, and i detected no topping/casing or anything in it.
> 
> i actually came home and did a quick search of its contents because it reminds me of the old PS Bullseye flake i had from monsoon (from the 80s). that aged VA taste, it's so closely flavored like malawi or zimbabwe leaf...
> 
> ...


I didn't think you were verbally assaulting me. Glad all you guys liked it and glad I could pass it on. Means my money wasn't wasted. I just wish SG wasn't so vague on ingredients and procedures........ typically british!


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## Don Fernando (Jan 1, 2000)

IHT said:


> joe, the reason for this topic is because i jsut smoked my first sample of GH broken scotch cake, and i detected no topping/casing or anything in it.
> 
> i actually came home and did a quick search of its contents because it reminds me of the old PS Bullseye flake i had from monsoon (from the 80s). that aged VA taste, it's so closely flavored like malawi or zimbabwe leaf...
> 
> ...


You found something that tastes like that old Stokkebye ???? Very cool. Gotta try it.


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## Mister Moo (Sep 8, 2005)

IHT said:


> okay, most of us have read the reviews, how ppl always say, "i can't stand that soapy floral scent they add." granted, there are a few that have something extra to them, like 1792. this topic is NOT about them
> 
> i've deduced (read: my opnion) that it's not a TOPPING by any stretch. it's that beautiful flavor and aroma of their african fire cured VAs that they throw in there.


If this is true, maybe McClelland doesn't use ketchup in their blends either.

I like you explanation, Greg.


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## dogsplayinpoker (Jan 23, 2007)

I am with you on this IHT. I do detect a floral quality while smoking some SG and GH blends but it is never over-powering and I actually enjoy the nuances. For the people who can't stand it, shut up and stop buying it. Leave more for the rest of us who enjoy these superb tobaccos.


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## paperairplane (Nov 8, 2007)

From my reading at that review site, I think there are some ppl that read what "reviewer x" writes and then have to ditto b/c they are afraid / timid / seeking acceptance - and would rather restate someone else's opinion than their own.

Hell, if I find a pink tobacco that's called Barbie's Special Blend and I like it - I'll smoke it and tell you I like it. If I try someone's favorite and hate it - I'll tell you that too.


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## IHT (Dec 27, 2003)

paperairplane said:


> From my reading at that review site, I think there are some ppl that read what "reviewer x" writes and then have to ditto b/c they are afraid / timid / seeking acceptance - and would rather restate someone else's opinion than their own.
> 
> Hell, if I find a pink tobacco that's called Barbie's Special Blend and I like it - I'll smoke it and tell you I like it. If I try someone's favorite and hate it - I'll tell you that too.


:tu

have some balloons for having balls on the outside... :bl


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## Mister Moo (Sep 8, 2005)

bump -

Always looking to run IHT into a snowbank )) I passed the drift of this thread to Greg Pease for comment. He was kind enough to reply today:

_"It's a good question. While some tobaccos DO have a floral aspect to them, most notably some of the oriental varieties, the intense aroma of the Lake district tobaccos is a result of a variety of toppings, including rose, geranium, and a host of others. Some of the flavourings have been in use for a hundred years or so, so they've got a significant history behind them. Some people love them, others loathe them, but everyone knows when they're present. _

_Cheers,
Greg"_

(This spin returns ketchup to the center of the table. dn)


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## IHT (Dec 27, 2003)

so, is he saying that ALL of their blends are topped with something (and how would he know)?
that's odd that he says all those things are reportedly in there, yet none of those come through in the tobaccos that i smoke.
maybe some of them that people KNOW are cased/topped, but the ones reported as being nothing but VAs, well... they could be, but i don't taste/smell anything like that in those blends.
he makes Haddo's Delight, which has some funky topping, but is not reported - yet easily found upon smelling/smoking.


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## NCatron (Sep 7, 2005)

Like many, I was scared away by the soapy descriptions from all of the reviews, but you make it sound not quite so bad. Which of the SG mixtures with the above characterstics is the most "tame" or "subtle"? In other words, if one weren't sure about this flavor, what's the first variety we should try? I'd hate to miss out on something because of some bad reviews.


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## DubintheDam (Jun 5, 2007)

I picked up some Benson & Hedges Mellow Virginia when I was last in Dublin. It's a 'Soapy' style, regular joe's baccy sold widely, can't say it does it for me but it is different and 'old school'. Also, read this article tonight about how to make your own soapy's. Enjoy:

http://www.pfeifenbox.de/articles/2004_en/soapy_en.htm


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## Mister Moo (Sep 8, 2005)

NCatron said:


> Like many, I was scared away by the soapy descriptions from all of the reviews, but you make it sound not quite so bad. Which of the SG mixtures with the above characterstics is the most "tame" or "subtle"? In other words, if one weren't sure about this flavor, what's the first variety we should try? I'd hate to miss out on something because of some bad reviews.


Squadron Leader is the one that I like, after a sniff from the tin is pondered and then forgotten.


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## PipesandGOP (Feb 7, 2008)

I know this is only about a year after this was started but I sorta stumbled across it and had to comment as I've recently encountered it. I've always really enjoyed the Gawith blends and could never really put my finger on what I was tasting until a couple of weeks ago. I occasionally partake in a little nasal snuff and suddenly it hit me that hey, traditional british snuffs use florals for their flavors (and have sincen the 17th century) . So it would make sense that a maker of traditional English pipe tobacco would have this staple of british tobacianna (essense of violets, rose, lavender) showing up in their pipe tobaccos. 

Personally I've really come to enjoy it. Did a lot to teach me that a good english doesn't just mean a latakia dump, but something that can indeed have some complexity when you let your mind wander a bit. I know out of all you guys on here you've got a lot of experience to comment on this, but to me it seems this floral quality that occasionally shows up really attests to the true 'English' quality of these tobaccos. And who knows, maybe you really like what's considered "english" by genre and not a tobacco that truly shows characteristics of an English tobacco.

Sorry, just saw this post while digging around and had to share my epiphany from 2 a.m. a few days ago lol.


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## paperairplane (Nov 8, 2007)

Why not dig up an old thread.... the topping debates rage on... 

I am no one to judge, I like 1792.


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## Quick_nick (Feb 10, 2008)

I have had Rum Flake and 1792, I liked Rum Flake well enough but I couldn't stand more than one bowl of 1792.


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## Big D KC (Oct 21, 2008)

Yea I don't know what it is, topping, casing, natural additives, the air in the packaging center.. But I do know I can sure as heck taste it, and it tastes like SOAP! 

Interestingly enough, my palate is not refined at all. (it's a bit discouraging sometimes too) but today I decided to sneak a small bowl with me for the ride to and from work. I decided to try a sample of "Britt's Balken" I got from 4noggins. About half way through the ride to work this morning at a stop light I thought to myself: "hmm tastes like britts balken was blended with some Gawith tobacco of some sort" as I got a few nice puffs of that "lakeland scent"!

I ordered some bulk Dark Flake Unscented and while it is good, I would hate to taste what the scented is like as the unscented has the strongest example of that soapy taste I have experienced yet!


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## IHT (Dec 27, 2003)

Big D KC said:


> Yea I don't know what it is, topping, casing, natural additives, the air in the packaging center.. But I do know I can sure as heck taste it, and it tastes like SOAP!
> 
> Interestingly enough, my palate is not refined at all. (it's a bit discouraging sometimes too) but today I decided to sneak a small bowl with me for the ride to and from work. I decided to try a sample of "Britt's Balken" I got from 4noggins. About half way through the ride to work this morning at a stop light I thought to myself: "hmm tastes like britts balken was blended with some Gawith tobacco of some sort" as I got a few nice puffs of that "lakeland scent"!
> 
> *I ordered some bulk Dark Flake Unscented and while it is good, I would hate to taste what the scented is like as the unscented has the strongest example of that soapy taste I have experienced yet!*


the bolded part is what i don't understand.
i've gone through plenty of Dark Flake unscented, and a little bit of the scented... nowhere would i ever think that unscented is "soapy" in aroma or taste.
is it that others have mentioned it in the past (maybe referring to other blends and generalizing) and it's totally ingrained into ppls psyche that is _should_ smell/taste like soap, since they may not be able to describe it on their own, they revert to what others have said??

i've had some of their blends, and agree that there's something added that gives them a "scent", but there are many blends that are just really strong fire cured tobaccos that give it that scent.


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## dmkerr (Oct 27, 2008)

IHT said:


> the bolded part is what i don't understand.
> i've gone through plenty of Dark Flake unscented, and a little bit of the scented... nowhere would i ever think that unscented is "soapy" in aroma or taste.
> is it that others have mentioned it in the past (maybe referring to other blends and generalizing) and it's totally ingrained into ppls psyche that is _should_ smell/taste like soap, since they may not be able to describe it on their own, they revert to what others have said??
> 
> i've had some of their blends, and agree that there's something added that gives them a "scent", but there are many blends that are just really strong fire cured tobaccos that give it that scent.


See my recent thread on "taste biases". This may be one of them.

I've tasted the "floral/soapy" taste on some of the Kendal blends. Dark Flake Unscented has a very light amount of this flavor but some others have it heavier. Kendal Kentucky does not have it at all.

The first tobacco I ever tasted that had this was the old Dobie's Four Square blends (I smoked 4 of them but don't recall the names - I hated them so I never bothered with them again). This would be back in the late 1980's. Nasty. I don't even know if that's a Lakeland blend or not or if it uses any of these fire-cured tobaccos. There was no bias back then and I hope I don't have one now that I have some experience with these blends, but honestly can't say for sure. Biases are very powerful things. We all have have some hidden somewhere.


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## plexiprs (Nov 18, 2005)

*ImHoTep*, I too am at a loss at finding soap, perfume, cologne, flowers, FDS, or Massengill in these tobaccos. I too have become a lover of all that is fire-cured and African-grown varietals. Then again, I can't find the Heinz in any McClelland blend either. I do like the good, strong Latakia and Oriental forward blends. But, a strong blend is always preferred over a weak but aromatic mix.

If needed, I could smoke Kendal Kentucky for the next year without break ...... Yee Haaa!!

_... depth, weight, spice, power...._ Trump room note, fruitiness, etc. Bring _back_ real tobacco flavor!


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## commonsenseman (Apr 18, 2008)

plexiprs said:


> If needed, I could smoke Kendal Kentucky for the next year without break ...... Yee Haaa!!
> 
> _... depth, weight, spice, power...._ Trump room note, fruitiness, etc. Bring _back_ real tobacco flavor!


I like your thinking! :thumb:

Sometimes I just want raw tobacco flavor, none of this fruity, sweet, girly stuff that passes as tobacco nowadays. :mrgreen:


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## Mister Moo (Sep 8, 2005)

plexiprs said:


> ... I am at a loss at finding soap, perfume, cologne, flowers, ... in these tobaccos....


And I am at a loss to know how anyone could miss it. This is mystifying to me unless it is a function of variability in the product.

The first tin of Squadron Leader I ever opened smelled powerfully of soap to me as the lid popped off; Mrs. Moo was 10-feet across the room and she smelled it too. I can't say it smoked soapy by it sure smelled soapy. Some tins do and some don't - more or less. Lately I don't notice it so much; nose fatigue?

I get that floral thing from some of the lakelands - sometimes from Squadron Leader, sometimes not. I have tried to follow IHT's idea about the taste of certain fired tobaccos but I have to conclude it's an additive; I never get a hint of what I'd call the lakeland characteristic outside of Samuel Gawith tins and I sure don't get it from GHDF-Unscented. WTH?


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## MarkC (Jul 4, 2009)

dmkerr said:


> See my recent thread on "taste biases". This may be one of them.


I think you're right. Particularly if Mr. Moo smells it in Squadron Leader. Maybe I've burned out too many nose hairs...


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## kvv098 (Mar 16, 2010)

Personally I think SG and GH make the best tobacco. Sorry but the floral scent filters out most of GH blends for me. When I am in a mood to smell flowers I am smelling flowers.


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## Mister Moo (Sep 8, 2005)

MarkC said:


> I think you're right. Particularly if Mr. Moo smells it in Squadron Leader. Maybe I've burned out too many nose hairs...


Cases instant:

First ever tin of Squadron Leader - I didn't know what lakeland meant and nobody pre-polluted my nose-mind with ideas of floral-, soapy- or otherwise scent. Fact is Mrs. Moo called out the "soap" smell thing from yards away a minute or so after I opened the new tin. She hadn't been reading pipe tobacco forums and she didn't walk in with a pre-configured notion of what SL should smell like.

As far as the ketchup and vinegar thing - WTH. I just bought a first-ever tin of McC Blackwoods yesterday and it reeked of vinegar smell to me. I avoid a lot of McC tobacco because of this even though I know the scent never comes through in the taste. I'll bet anyone a VA tin to to a VA-pound if I give Mrs. Moo a sniff off the top of the full tin tonight she'll say "ketchup" and/or "vinegar" without any kind of preconceived McC aroma notion.


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## dmkerr (Oct 27, 2008)

Mister Moo said:


> And I am at a loss to know how anyone could miss it. This is mystifying to me unless it is a function of variability in the product.
> 
> The first tin of Squadron Leader I ever opened smelled powerfully of soap to me as the lid popped off; Mrs. Moo was 10-feet across the room and she smelled it too. I can't say it smoked soapy by it sure smelled soapy. Some tins do and some don't - more or less. Lately I don't notice it so much; nose fatigue?
> 
> I get that floral thing from some of the lakelands - sometimes from Squadron Leader, sometimes not. I have tried to follow IHT's idea about the taste of certain fired tobaccos but I have to conclude it's an additive; I never get a hint of what I'd call the lakeland characteristic outside of Samuel Gawith tins and I sure don't get it from GHDF-Unscented. WTH?


That's interesting. I've never smelled it in SL and I do smell/taste it in some of the G&H blends, even DF Unscented (but very faint). I agree it's an additive of some kind but it's interesting in that people's sensitivity to it seems to vary, just as it seems to vary from blend to blend and even tin to tin in different people.

To be fair, I buy SL in bulk and store it in mason jars. By the time I get to it, it's at least somewhat aged.


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## IHT (Dec 27, 2003)

dmkerr said:


> To be fair, I buy SL in bulk and store it in mason jars. By the time I get to it, it's at least somewhat aged.


maybe you've just discovered the reasoning!!! 
what if SG and GH have something they put on the inside of their tins to keep them from molding, much like McClellands went to that food grade tin many years ago?
i know a lot of GH stuff is bulk that some report that aroma...

meh, either way... i think Dan is right about the "biases" part of the discussion. it seems those that don't like lakeland scent don't like many Gawith products, whether there's a scent added or not. just like many aren't a fan of GLP blends, or McClelland blends, or H&H blends (like me, not a fan)...

i think i'm done with it, if someone wants to think there's a lakeland scent added to a non-scented tobacco (or vinegar to mcc's, or hot air to freshly opened C&D blends )... that's cool, nobody is forcing a gun on anyone to smoke it.


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## Mister Moo (Sep 8, 2005)

IHT said:


> ...if someone wants to think there's... (...vinegar to mcc's)... that's cool


Since nobody took it up yet, my bet is off on the McC Blackwoods tin smell. It darn well smelled like vinegar yesterday but I opened it today (just checking...) and it smelled like fruit to me. I cross checked with a supervisor at work and she gave a funny look and said, "Prunes."

George Gershwin smelled burning rubber before he cashed in his chips - brain tumor. Bruce Willis convinced Billy Bob Thornton that he smelled burning feathers in the movie "Bandits." Per imdb.com Memorable Quotes:

Terry: _Do you smell burning feathers?_ 
Kate: _Burning feathers? _
Terry: _Joe's older brother, Albert. He smelled burning feathers. He had a brain tumor."_

At this time scents of floral, soap and prunes are questionable but probably not fatal. It's weird how this debate goes on and on with some finding the aromas so obvious and others saying it doesn't (or barely) exist. It's particularly interesting because we all seem to agree in advance what soap, ketchup, vinegar and floral mean. WTH... This discussion was resolved four hundred years ago.

_"What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;"_

_- Shakespeare_
_Romeo and Juliet_


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## plexiprs (Nov 18, 2005)

Perhaps those that smell soap, perfume, vinegar or ketchup should see a neurosurgeon at their earliest. Of course, many of us already knew of Moo's brain damage .........


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## Senator (Feb 8, 2008)

Taste and smell abilitiies are not all alike. Some are more perceptive/sensitive to sweet, salt, sour, etc. Just because one person can't sense something does not mean it isn't there.

My wife and I ordered a pizza once...I swore I could taste nutmeg in the sauce...she could not and thought I was crazy for thinking so. Same thing here.

If someone says they taste soap...so what? I don't take it as a slight if someone perceives a tobacco to be something I don't.

I sense a very light soapiness in Dark Flake Unscented. That's cool...I like it. Whether it's a topping or simply a different tobacco causing the taste...it doesn't matter to me.


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## phatmax (Mar 18, 2009)

Look up Heliotropin.

I think it might be used in their products. It is also used in many other products such as food, candy...

and soap. Not that it is a bad thing, but it could be one reason for the scent.


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## ultramag (Aug 23, 2007)

Senator said:


> If someone says they taste soap...so what? I don't take it as a slight if someone perceives a tobacco to be something I don't.
> 
> I sense a very light soapiness in Dark Flake Unscented. That's cool...I like it. Whether it's a topping or simply a different tobacco causing the taste...it doesn't matter to me.


I don't think anyone really cares how it's being perceived or by whom so much as we would just like to know what it is. As someone who smokes most everything mentioned in this thread somewhat regularly I'd just kinda like to know.

I assume there is a chance there is some kind of scent/topping applied to some of these blends. It does in fact seem quite odd that it's these same dark-fired type blends, with certain types of leaf, from certain places that most often get this similiar association, but of such varying degrees, if there's not.

I read an an interesting post on a forum from GLP the other day and the jist of it was that many of our beloved all natural un-cased blends most likely aren't. After thinking about it a few days, I suspect he's right. I mean hell, he surely knows more than me. Anyway, the position was that most blends have a little something extra added. Not to the point of the crazy goopy aromatics, but just a little wisp of this or hint of that. To top it all off, the venerable FVF was what he was using as an example. Not that he _knew for a fact _it was mildly cased, just that it's very possible in his opinion.

BTW, don't give up IHT!!! I know you'll read this. oke:


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## smokehouse (Jan 31, 2007)

IHT said:


> the bolded part is what i don't understand.
> *i've gone through plenty of Dark Flake unscented, and a little bit of the scented... nowhere would i ever think that unscented is "soapy" in aroma or taste.*
> is it that others have mentioned it in the past (maybe referring to other blends and generalizing) and it's totally ingrained into ppls psyche that is _should_ smell/taste like soap, since they may not be able to describe it on their own, they revert to what others have said??
> 
> i've had some of their blends, and agree that there's something added that gives them a "scent", but there are many blends that are just really strong fire cured tobaccos that give it that scent.


I recently bought some Dark Flake unscented and all I tasted when I lit it up was the soapy floral taste.:noidea: My taste buds can not handle whatever is causing that flavor. I don't know how you guys can smoke it. I ended up giving the rest to Evan.


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