# Why do some people think non-Cubans cigars are as good of better than Cuban cigars?



## n2advnture

I get this question a lot and thought I'd post up my opinion. PLEASE don't take anything said as being an "elitest or a snob", it's NOT intended to be that way what-so-ever.

"Why do some people think non-Cubans cigars are as good of better than Cuban cigars?" 

Over the years I have heard & read quotes from people who say that Cuban cigars are no longer as good as they once were decades ago. I have even heard declarations that non-Cuban cigars (Honduras, Dominica Rep., Nicaragua, etc…). have come a long way and are often times even better their Cuban counterparts.

For the serious Cuban cigar smoker it has nothing to do with having the "forbidden fruit" and I will attempt to expound from one Cuban cigar smoker's view as to why I believe these erroneous claims have become regurgitated throughout the years. I won't get into the actual differences between Cuban tobacco and non-Cuban tobacco and how their processes greatly differ as there are many. It's not relative to this discussion but will be a good topic for the future. The topic is merely "why do some people think non-Cubans cigars are as good of better than Cuban cigars."

The first would be an obvious attempt by US shop owners to elevate the only product that they are allowed to legally sell, non-Cuban cigars. It only makes sense to bash the competing product by artificially elevating the stature of the product that is your primary income. This same marketing principle has been around, well, forever. And that is because it works. If you tell a customer who is coming into your exclusively non-Cuban cigar store that Cuban cigars are better then he/she may go away feeling as if they aren't buying the best available product and try to find alternate source for what they want – which would obviously not be your store.

The second reason for this misconception is from the consumer themselves. The consumer based misinformation has several sources for the debunked theory. The first is the amount of fake Cuban cigars being sold is astonishing. In Canada alone, it is estimated that between 80,000-100,000 boxes of fake cigars are sold per year. Take this a little step further to include the vacation hot spots for Americans, namely the Caribbean, Mexico and Central/South America. The numbers can't possibly be estimated accurately. In any case, a majority of Americans do not smoke authentic Cuban cigars on a regular basis, so when they pick up a couple of fake Cuban cigars while on vacation and compare them the premium non-Cuban cigars they are used to smoking, of course there would be an immediate positive review for the non-Cuban cigars. I have had many fake Cuban cigars and some were by far the worst cigars I have EVER had, Cuban or non-Cuban. I would rather have had a black n' mild! 

The perfect example is a friend of mine who fancies himself as a cigar smoker and has for years. He takes his family vacation every year to the Caribbean and while there, picks up the glass top Cohibas found at the local resort or shop. He has been smoking fake Cubans for years without ever knowing it. He thought they were good but not quite as good as his premium sticks he buys at home but he enjoys them for their mystique more than their actual flavor. I could immediately from the packaging and band that there were fake. It's always a tough call for Cuban cigar smokers to make the decision to tell someone they are smoking fakes but since we had been friends for so long, I didn't think it would be a problem. Well, I usually don't tell anyone outright. My preferred method is to give them an authentic version of their "favorite" Cuban cigar. In this case it was a Cohiba robusto. After the first couple of draws, it was a look of something wasn't right but he couldn't figure it out. Then BAM, you could actually the revelation on his face. Then the smile. It starts as a smile of semi-embarrassment then it turns into a sublime smile of enjoyment. It's actually one of the reasons why I love gifting cigars so much. But I digress. 

The second possible reason for the consumer based misinformation is in cigar smoking experience, cigar smoking technique and/or the smoker's genetics. Much like becoming a connoisseur of fine wines, it takes years to refine a cigar smoker's palette that can adequately distinguish the subtly in flavors often found in cigars. Especially in aged Cuban cigars! Many of these continuous flavor changes and subtleties just can't be found in non-Cubans and experienced cigar smokers who have taken the time to refine their palette know this. Rarely have I ever had a non-Cuban cigar that develops anywhere near the complexity of Cuban cigar and rarely have I had a non-Cuban cigar that continues to get better with some decent aging (5+ years). There are exceptions but with Cuban cigars, it's more of the rule than the exception. Also non-Cuban cigars tend to be "one dimensional". Meaning there is typically 1 or 2 predominate flavors that run from beginning to end during the smoke. A properly stored and aged cigar can (and has) given me pause because of the sheer complexity makes it hard to do anything else, other than focus on the cigar's flavors. There can be dozens from beginning to end and often times flavors on top of flavors on top of flavors. It definitely a soulful experience at times. Not only that, the experience of taking a box of Cuban cigars from birth and taking notes on how the flavors develop, WITHIN THE SAME BOX MIND YOU, over years and years just can't be done with non-Cuban cigars (believe me, I have tried).

Also along the lines of a refined palette comes life experience with the flavors one is trying to discern. What I mean is someone who has never had nutmeg or star anise wouldn't know how to discern it when combined with smoke and tobacco. One of the best ways to develop a palette is to taste and smell as many things possible and focus on them. (Most commonly is opening up your spice cabinet and take a whiff and taste of each item individually. It's amazing how many of those flavors can be found in cigars along with a variety of wood, grass and earth flavors.) 

Again, this is all lost if a defined palette is non-existent in the cigar smoker. Which leads me to genetics. Everyone has varying degrees of genetic ability to discern flavors based on the development of their olfactories. It's much like the difference between humans whose olfactories could fit on a postage stamp and a canine's whose olfactories are about 1/3 of the length of their body. Some people have the ability to smell and taste much better than others. Flavors and odors have very little subjectivity but what really varies are the abilities of the tasters to identify each flavor and their different intensities within a cigar.

The third problem is "user error". WAY too many cigar smokers simply smoke cigars too quickly. Smoking too quickly causes a cigar to get too hot which, more often than not, will turn any cigar into a harsh and bitter smoke. I just thought I would point this out even though it doesn't make a difference between smoking a Cuban or non-Cuban. Any cigar's subtly will be ruined by smoking too quickly.

While cigar smoking is affected by experience, the actual product and its storage, genetics and technique, it ultimately comes down to be what each individual smoker likes. Some people may prefer NCs to Cubans and that's fine. So, smoke what you like, like what you smoke.

Happy smoking and hope this helps!

~Mark


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## pistol

*Re: Why do some people think non-Cubans cigars are as good of better than Cuban cigars?*

that was a great read!


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## dyj48

Excellent thread and statement...well done!


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## Corona Gigante-cl

*Re: Why do some people think non-Cubans cigars are as good of better than Cuban cigars?*



pistol said:


> that was a great read!


Very comprehensive. Thanks, Mark!

Whenever I hear an individual (as opposed to an on-line vendor) banging on about how over-rated Cuban cigars are, I just assume they've never experienced that "ah-ha!" moment that comes at about the third puff of--say--an 05 Boli RC (thanks, Brandon!).

It seems pretty clear that among the old-timers, most (but not all) Cuban cigars are vastly preferred to most (but not all) non-Cuban cigars.

Old timers tell us the blends are not what they were. I have no experience of the legendary "black tobacco" and so I can but bow with respect to their opinions. The Cuban cigar of today may indeed be a shadow of its former self for all I know. What I do know is that I would rather smoke almost any Cuban that was made in the last four or five years and which cost $5 or $6 over most non-Cuban cigars that cost twice as much.

Just my $0.02.


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## Ermo

*Re: Why do some people think non-Cubans cigars are as good of better than Cuban cigars?*

I think the main reason is the bashing by B&M owners. Lots of people think the B&M guys know everything about cigars and just take their word as gospel. Sad.


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## mosesbotbol

*Re: Why do some people think non-Cubans cigars are as good of better than Cuban cigars?*

I agree that fakes and personal self interest has dictated many people's opinions.

I can say that in Switzerland, there are a few non-Cuban cigars that are rated as equals to Cubans; Fuente, Davidoff, Ashton, Griffin, and Zino. They are priced similarly also.

I could see how some would say Cubans were overrated 10-15 years ago when Habanos quality control wasn't what it is today. When I got boxes of Cubans (early 90's) and at least three were lemons, and there's not one lemon on a box of Hemingway's or DR Partagas, then I could perhaps argue on the non-Cuban side pretty confidently.  Outside of obvious construction issues, I think much of it is personal preference; not better or worse. To some, Cameroon is the best wrapper- bar none&#8230;


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## thinhouse

Very nice post. I totally agree. I use to love some NC's until I tried a cuban cigar. Now I can't even smoke a non-cuban cigar. I've tried but keep putting them down. It's a fine moment to enjoy a good cuban cigar!


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## etenpenny

great read mark, thanks for that, seems to be exactly right


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## zemekone

*Re: Why do some people think non-Cubans cigars are as good of better than Cuban cigars?*

This is a great read! One of the best in a long time. It was a breath of fresh air in all madness and scramble for bux and such... I have so done the same thing by giving a friend a authentic Cuban cigar, when he has been smoking fakes bought in Mexico!

Cohiba glass top with 12 CoRoS: $50.00
Aunthentic CoRo: 10.07 EUR
Look of revelation on his face: PRICELESS


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## RockyP

*Re: Why do some people think non-Cubans cigars are as good of better than Cuban cigars?*

that was good read


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## galaga

n2advnture said:


> I get this question a lot and thought I'd post up my opinion. PLEASE don't take anything said as being an "elitest or a snob", it's NOT intended to be that way what-so-ever.
> 
> "Why do some people think non-Cubans cigars are as good or better than Cuban cigars?"
> 
> .........................
> 
> ~Mark


A good read and I cannot argue much with you. But what if you had posted the following....

"Why do people think some non-Cubans cigars are as good or better than Cuban cigars?"

Well, noob that I am to all this, if you asked me the above question I would have to answer "Because some non-Cuban cigars are as good or better than some Cuban cigars."

I would have to point out, that although my palate has gone through the smoking the more intense flavored cigars and has come around to where I now also enjoy the lighter cigars, and, I agree that on average, Cuban cigars are less one dimensional than non-Cuban cigars, there are times when a cigar that hits the right one or two flavors will be what really satisfies me. Had a domestic punch churchill last night that was a two dimensional cigar, slight cedar and a buttery note and buttery is something I usually have a hard time picking up. I feel cheated that I usually can't taste buttery! Now there were some other cigars being passed around, all cuban, and while most were good and one was great, I was in the mood for the punch and wouldn't have traded it away.


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## 68TriShield

I have to go with Rick on this.I love a good cigar be it cc or nc.There are some nc cigars that I enjoy every bit as much as a fine cc.That being said, I believe that all cuban cigars have a distinct flavor that cant be duplicated in a nc.When that is the taste I want thats what I go for...:2 FWIW...


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## calistogey

*Re: Why do some people think non-Cubans cigars are as good of better than Cuban cigars?*

Good read! Thanks for the write-up.
Although not as much as I'd like, I do frequent the local B&M for certain cigar purchases. Perhaps even in my small way I'm able to help support their business. I have come to know the guys who work there as well as some folks who stop by for a smoke. I'd hate to have the place close down, since it's one of the few places remaining where a few cigar smokers can smoke and hang out.

Another issue which may affect the cigar smoking experience is the overall condition of the cigars. Not everyone is knowledgable as to proper care along with the amount of storage time necessary so as to get the best enjoyment out of them. Then again there are just some people who are quite satisfied with them, so we should just let them be.


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## Full Bodied Bruce

*Re: Why do some people think non-Cubans cigars are as good of better than Cuban cigars?*

I have purchased sampler packs of 5 from three different suppliers who have been recommended by a site you are all familiar with. So I do not believe I have counterfeits sitting in my humi.After a week in the humi I smoked one out of each sampler box and I was disappointed each time. Maybe my expectations were too high, maybe my palet has not yet developed enough to really appreciate these smokes.They were all good but not great.
I have read that Cubans do not age their cigars after manufacturing them. I also read in a news letter I received this week that a Cuban mild should be aged at least a year before smoking them. The stronger blends require 2-5 years. So I am in a quandry on what to next. Am thinking about trying one or two at Chrismas time before buying any boxes, knowing that might be jumping the gun.
Meanwhile I have plenty of NC's that I really enjoy.


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## Ivory Tower

*Re: Why do some people think non-Cubans cigars are as good of better than Cuban cigars?*

Mark, thanks for the thought-provoking write up. There are many reasons why a cigar smoker might be predisposed to NCs.

I am in the some-NCs-are-as-good-as-some-cubies camp. In my opinion, I've had some great NCs and some great cubies, albeit young ones.

I am NOT arguing that some NCs are sometimes better that any 5+ year-old habano, though. (Actually, I am not experienced enough, but I presume that the aged cuby would always be better - all things being equal).

That being said, with a great degree of probability, I would pick any cuby over any NC, if given the choice.


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## RPB67

I have a lot of friends in Italy. When I go see my parents I usually bring some regular Non Cuban Cigars with me for some people I know out there. They all like them (Opus, Anejos,Padrons, Rocky Patels, Fuentes ) and they are harder to get and more money out there as well.

But they all say the same thing to me. There is nothing like a good Habano and 
an expresso. I feel the same way. The Cuban Cigar just has a different taste and now that I am used to that taste. I like it.


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## wij

*Re: Why do some people think non-Cubans cigars are as good of better than Cuban cigars?*

First, Mark thanks for the informative essay. I was in that group that thought NC's were as good as CC solely based on B&M talk. I came to CS and read all the posts and began to question my thinking. I had several AWESOME experiences with gifted cubans from generous CS Gorillas and I've been sold ever since.

Believe me, I wish NC's (to me) were as good as cubans so that I wouldn't have to go through the risk and hassle to acquire them. I still enjoy the NC cigars that I have but if given a choice I'd take the cuban every time.


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## Fireman_UK

*Re: Why do some people think non-Cubans cigars are as good of better than Cuban cigars?*

I was pretty much 'take it or leave it' with Cubans until I smoked a HdM Epi 2...that was when I 'got it'. I've still only smoked the one, but when I can afford to treat myself, I want that feeling again.:dr


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## designwise1

*Re: Why do some people think non-Cubans cigars are as good of better than Cuban cigars?*

Please read this post in its entirety before responding.

I'm still a cigar noob and have never tried a Cuban. I enjoyed reading your post and the replies. It has been hard for me to understand why they are so popular because most of the time I read about how much better they are than NCs without anyone being specific as to HOW they are better. I think I understand a little better now. 
I usually avoid this section of the forum altogether but your topic caught my attention and I had to read. I'm glad I did. Thanks.
Now... lest anyone get the notion that I am hinting to try one - I am not. My humi runneth over and so does my frigidor. I am fine with my Nics' and my pipes for now. So, please, don't send Cubans. Besides, when I collected coins I avoided buying gold. Kind of the same with cigars. I'm OCD enough as it is...  
Thanks again for the informative and eye-opening post. Simple enough for a noob to get it.


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## smokepiper

So far I have enjoyed the few cubans I have smoked. Recently I picked up a cabinet of Party shorts. Although they are good and flavorfull, I have noticed a very heavy amonia flavor. Obviously being freshly rolled (May 06) they need a little age. 

I think one way NCs are better is in the instant smokability area. Someone recommends a stick and you can go to your b&m or online and pick some up and somke it on the way home. 

I've smoked a couple of the shorts and I don't have that instant gratification. Gotta let them sit for a year or so to begin to truly enjoy them. 

In essence, I keep my options open. I enjoy the forbidden fruit, but sometimes I just like a good, quick, legal smoke. :w 

I'm an equal opportunity smoker.  

D


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## Simon Templar

*Re: Why do some people think non-Cubans cigars are as good of better than Cuban cigars?*

Great Post! Lots of insight and things for a noob like myself to consider.


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## sirwood

*Re: Why do some people think non-Cubans cigars are as good of better than Cuban cigars?*

Thanks for the post! It was a good read!

As a general statement, I think cuban tobacco is better. But I try to say to others that it is 'different'. To say which is better is based on personal taste, and other opinions are valid. Somedays, I may grab the PAM torp from humidor, even though I have a Monte #2 available :w

Next post, I would like you to expand on this statement:


n2advnture said:


> I won't get into the actual differences between Cuban tobacco and non-Cuban tobacco and how their processes greatly differ as there are many.


I have some ideas on the differences, but I would enjoy hearing your thoughts!!!


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## Bob

*Re: Why do some people think non-Cubans cigars are as good of better than Cuban cigars?*

I am lost on this one. I talked to the B&M and they say that the differences are as great as one person will like one box of RyJ Cubans and not like RyJ Non Cubans. Or they will like one box of Non- Cubans over a particular brand of Cubans. I think when these fellas blending who lived in Cuba and were blenders there...You know they know what goes into making a good cigar. I guess the way I look at it is that it is a matter of personal taste and preference. The Mistique of the cuban and non-cuban exists in all the various tobacco plant spieces and it is the blender that makes the difference in the cigar, that and the experience of the roller. But, what do I know? I do know this that experiences and tobacco practice change as do pallet tastes. The men of today are no less experienced in blending tobaccos and they are handing this experience down to their decendants who are doing great jobs of offering new and good cigar products. I stand with the future and hopefully respect the work and effort that has gone into great cigars past and present. Count me as a BOTL whether it is Cuban or NC.o


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## M1903A1

*Re: Why do some people think non-Cubans cigars are as good of better than Cuban cigars?*



sirwood said:


> Thanks for the post! It was a good read!
> 
> As a general statement, I think cuban tobacco is better. But I try to say to others that it is 'different'. To say which is better is based on personal taste, and other opinions are valid. Somedays, I may grab the PAM torp from humidor, even though I have a Monte #2 available :w
> 
> Next post, I would like you to expand on this statement:
> 
> I have some ideas on the differences, but I would enjoy hearing your thoughts!!!


A friend who lives overseas told me that the principal difference he finds between Cubans and NCs is that Cubans taste like an all-natural product, whereas now when he picks up an NC he always notices an _artificialness_ about the taste. Just my :2


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## IHT

*Re: Why do some people think non-Cubans cigars are as good of better than Cuban cigars?*



Bob said:


> I am lost on this one. I talked to the B&M and they say that the differences are as great as one person will like one box of RyJ Cubans and not like RyJ Non Cubans. Or they will like one box of Non- Cubans over a particular brand of Cubans. I think when these fellas blending who lived in Cuba and were blenders there...You know they know what goes into making a good cigar. I guess the way I look at it is that it is a matter of personal taste and preference. The Mistique of the cuban and non-cuban exists in all the various tobacco plant spieces and it is the blender that makes the difference in the cigar, that and the experience of the roller.


bob, i'm just using this reply as a "starting point", not calling your reply out.
---
that first few sentences makes absolutely no sense at all.
your guys at the B&M are feeding you a line of :BS, and i'm sure it happens all over the states (i've witnessed it firsthand as well, and all i can do is laugh). 
a cuban RyJ and non-cuban RyJ have NOTHING in common, NOTHING. not made by the same people, not the same company, not the same tobacco, not the same rollers, not the same process, etc, etc, etc. there is NOTHING remotely the same about cubans and non-cubans under the "same name" - other than the name itself and this it is a cigar to be smoked. the flavors will never be close to the same.
the guys who use to live in cuba, and now lives outside and still works/blends in the industry, what is the missing ingredient?? cuban tobacco. 
the "blender" does make a difference in taste, but i don't think the "blender" makes a difference in a cuban being better/worse than a non-cuban. it's about the tobacco and the flavors they produce. 
you can blend up sh*t all day long, you've just got varying degrees of sh*t at that point.
---
there are a few non-cubans i could smoke on a regular basis if that's all i could smoke. i give them all a try whenever i'm on the road, and every now and then i'll try one that's halfway smokeable. most of the time, i throw it away before getting to the halfway point of the cigar, they taste horrible/harsh/make me want to spit all the time.


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## IHT

smokepiper said:


> I think one way NCs are better is in the instant smokability area. Someone recommends a stick and you can go to your b&m or online and pick some up and somke it on the way home.


that could be because before you buy that cigar from a B&M, it's been aged a good 3-5 years already, or else they lie in their advertising.

take any 3-5 yr old cuban cigar, match it up to an freshly rolled, or 1 yr old cuban, you'll see a big difference.


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## Bob

*Re: Why do some people think non-Cubans cigars are as good of better than Cuban cigars?*



IHT said:


> bob, i'm just using this reply as a "starting point", not calling your reply out.
> ---
> that first few sentences makes absolutely no sense at all.
> your guys at the B&M are feeding you a line of :BS, and i'm sure it happens all over the states (i've witnessed it firsthand as well, and all i can do is laugh).
> a cuban RyJ and non-cuban RyJ have NOTHING in common, NOTHING. not made by the same people, not the same company, not the same tobacco, not the same rollers, not the same process, etc, etc, etc. there is NOTHING remotely the same about cubans and non-cubans under the "same name" - other than the name itself and this it is a cigar to be smoked. the flavors will never be close to the same.
> the guys who use to live in cuba, and now lives outside and still works/blends in the industry, what is the missing ingredient?? cuban tobacco.
> the "blender" does make a difference in taste, but i don't think the "blender" makes a difference in a cuban being better/worse than a non-cuban. it's about the tobacco and the flavors they produce.
> you can blend up sh*t all day long, you've just got varying degrees of sh*t at that point.
> ---
> there are a few non-cubans i could smoke on a regular basis if that's all i could smoke. i give them all a try whenever i'm on the road, and every now and then i'll try one that's halfway smokeable. most of the time, i throw it away before getting to the halfway point of the cigar, they taste horrible/harsh/make me want to spit all the time.


Not offended at all by your comments. They did make the statement related to the two different products being made in two different places and with different tobaccos and that is the reason some may prefer one over the other. I accept your point on the different countries of origin and tobaccos of origin. My point is that they will be different and different people will like them for different reasons. I will also admit that a lot of the cigars I taste are harsh etc. Even the AF's that people rave about here have not bowled me over. I did state ..."what do I know?" The purpose in relaying the info was to give a feel of what a B&M stated. I will admit that they have had more cigar smoking experience than I have. I admit that you do. I have no qualms about stating that. I do know what I do like and do not like. I will admit though that I like Pepin's stuff because of the difference in taste profile. I have heard you state before that the RyJ Cuban is one of your favorites. I do not doubt that it must be an entirely different smoke than we have here. I am taking your word on that. I am glad that you are willing to confront the issues of B&M's not knowing a lot about the Cuban cigars. 
The Tobacco itself and its blending must truly be different. But, I am not opposed to discussing that ...I think that is a very important issue in understanding what we are commonly told. I am sorry if you think I was regurgitating a "party line" of sorts. I did not mean to do that. But, I readily admit my ignorance...but I will say, why do the manufacturers continue to say they constructed one close to a cuban etc...I mean really. 
As I stated in a thread....that even the cuban flag is flown on a Nicaraguan Cuban Classic...Laughable as it seems ...It was a good smoke....but...not cuban. My problem is we are always bombarded with misinformation...I don't mean to contribute to that. Sorry maybe I should not have posted but...I wanted to join in the conversation and relay what I heard from someone who has more experience than I. Hats off to you anyway....


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## JPH

*Re: Why do some people think non-Cubans cigars are as good of better than Cuban cigars?*

I'm now addicted to snorting thyme...great..

Really though...Great post!


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## calistogey

*Re: Why do some people think non-Cubans cigars are as good of better than Cuban cigars?*



Ivory Tower said:


> That being said, with a great degree of probability, I would pick any cuby over any NC, if given the choice.


Use to subscribe to the idea years ago, but after having some less than desireable experiences with fresh, tannic, sick, bad batches, poor production years and over/under humidified smokes along with the usual 2nd and 3rd tier brands (by going along certain recommendations from others), such generalizations may be a bit too unrealistic. Improvements,developments and advances in cigar production as of late has not been strictly limited to those that come from the island, but from other countries as well. This doesn't mean I will consider equal share of each, but rather rate each one based on their merits. I believe the end result simply have led me to become a more discerning cigar smoker. JMHO of course.


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## hornitosmonster

Question

Once the embargo is long gone..will Cubans still taste the same? 

Cubans are great...I'm not experienced like most of the guys around here but I have had legit Cubans...They are good..can't argue against that.

But I truely do believe that cubans being illegal adds to the experience of smoking the fine cuban cigar...Our minds work in funny ways...it is basic psychology. So in addition to getting some fine Tobac you are getting a psychological "High".

Just my :2


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## calistogey

*Re: Why do some people think non-Cubans cigars are as good of better than Cuban cigars?*

Can't really say I don't agree, but I doubt you'd find anyone who will admit to that.


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## ATLHARP

I think I know why: They know they are wrong and do not have it in them to admit it.

Look I can go on all day about computers,cars, football, photography and act as if I know something about them, but when my experience with certain things is limited and sparse at best. How can I be taken seriously when I haven't had that much experience with those things? Those that have had that experience I believe have either gotten fakes or they simply enjoy cigars that are more agressive and are typically unlike Cubans. Mexico is finding a large market share as of lately in Europe because there are some that do not like the taste of cubans and prefer the flavor to Mexican cigars. Is that bad? No, but to simply call Cubans overrated is pure nonsense because of an issue with taste.

*I know cigars* and I know the overall quality (taste,burn, construction) is superior to just about any other cigar on the planet. The day I find a NC that can stack up to a Cuban within the same price margin I will glad to admit it. Till then they can keep dreaming......

ATL


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## Moglman-cl

I've smoked sick, nasty and just plain flavorless cuban cigars, and many that just didn't work for me. Fortunately for me and unfortunately for my credit card, I am almost never forced into that situation. I like a good number of NCs, period. There are some teriffic brands out there. I *love* nearly all of the Cuban's I have smoked, some more, some less, but it's a pretty universal feeling for me. I have a friend from the DR that shakes his head and laughs if I mention this, but he doesn't smoke to lend his negative opinion of CCs any validation. He has family in the business down there and they told him so. Ah well. Just finished one of those Chicos recently on special and I am just fine where I am. :2


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## luckybandit

You just have to smoke isom's for the first time and you know. Just a different everything!


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## SeanGAR

Excellent post. 

From an investment standpoint, there is no comparison. Cubans have a pedigree and will improve and increase in value. NCs will not.


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## beezer

I really enjoyed this. Very good material here coming from years of wisdom.


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## daveteal

*Re: Why do some people think non-Cubans cigars are as good of better than Cuban cigars?*



JPH said:


> I'm now addicted to snorting thyme...great..
> 
> Really though...Great post!


try the rosemary lol


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## Bob

*Re: Why do some people think non-Cubans cigars are as good of better than Cuban cigars?*

I am gonna make a comment that may not relate and is something that the original poster has stated would be a good topic at some point. 
Tabacco spieces are numerous. The soil the tobacco is grown in is all different. The seed may be the same but the soil and the fertilizers used for growth may be different. Horse, donkey, chicken, rabbit manure etc. The Amish here in the USA show what can be done in the area of land usage and fertilization. Corporations can do this in unnatural or natural ways. Also, types of fertilizers can change ph, acidity etc. Volcanic ash can do likewise over centuries and sea salts and hurricanes can effect islands etc. All this plays its role. We all know that tomatos grown by big farms can not produce the same flavors as a home grown tomato. But the taste is different.
How a product is handled and processed etc plays its role. I just thought I might add this to the mix here. 
We here in the USA are driven to buy the NC products because that is all we have to choose from. I for one wish it were not this way but the embargo has lasted my entire life. I turn 51 in October. The embargo came in when I was about 7 years old. Kennedy made sure he got his though. A whole group of people suffered as a result of this but I cannot undo the past or was not a part of the processes that resulted in that. Anyway, I hope the future will be better but apparently forces involved that money and power produce will likely not end and people will continue their fight neighbor against neighbor. But, this is off topic...sorry for the lament. But, the Cuban Cigar is probably different because of the work toil and soil of the Cuban people and the centuries of working that soil produces it as a distinct product with a distinct flavor that is not able to be aquired elsewhere. Just remember this Cocoa for chocolate making only grows in certain parts of the planet and each day we lose parts of the enviroment that it can grow in. The loss of its enviroment will mean the end of it someday if more is not done to protect rather than destroy. Sorry for the rant..:sb


----------



## M1903A1

hornitosmonster said:


> Question
> 
> Once the embargo is long gone..will Cubans still taste the same?
> 
> Cubans are great...I'm not experienced like most of the guys around here but I have had legit Cubans...They are good..can't argue against that.
> 
> But I truely do believe that cubans being illegal adds to the experience of smoking the fine cuban cigar...Our minds work in funny ways...it is basic psychology. So in addition to getting some fine Tobac you are getting a psychological "High".
> 
> Just my :2


I think that's a big part of it for a lot of unsophisticated smokers...at the same time I consider my father's experience. He received two boxes of intubulated RyJ Churchills from my mother as a present when he graduated from law school. This was either at the time of, or right after, the Embargo's enactment. He smoked them one by one for special occasions for the next 10-12 years. At the same time he tried a variety of NCs and, he told me, none of them fit the bill. Once he was done with his pre-embargo Cuban stash, he gave up smoking altogether.


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## j6ppc

All I know is that when I go to the humi.... more often than not... It is the Cubans that talk to me. 
Not smoking Cubans to impress anyone (my cat could care less). Just like 'em.


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## Tampa1257

*Re: Why do some people think non-Cubans cigars are as good of better than Cuban cigars?*

Taste is subjective. Some people enjoy the flavors they find in Non-Cuban and others enjoy the flavors they find in Cuban cigars. While Marks discussion is an excellent read and covers many of the issues, all I can bring to the discussion is my own experience.

Everyone smokes cigars for different reasons. I find that I enjoy the assortment of flavors and complexities. Now I also believe that many cigar smokers do not have an accurate understanding of what "Complexity" is. I have often described it as the evolution of flavors, or the rising and falling of them, sort of like a building up of the flavors into a crescendo and then falling off to a low end and then building up yet again. Peaks and valleys if you will.

I find that the majority of Non-Cuban cigars are one dimensional in this aspect. (There are a few examples that I also happen to enjoy such as Padron Anniversario which in my humble opinion is a complex cigar), but on the whole, I find Non-Cuban cigars lackluster in complexity.

My experience has been that when I light up a Non-Cuban cigar, that the flavors are typically the same from beginning to end and that no matter what size Non-Cuban I choose, weather a Toro or a Churchill, the flavors are exactly the same, just a different length of cigar and time to smoke it. Now with a Cuban cigar, my experience has been that the flavors change (or evolve) from the beginning to the middle to the last third of the cigar. I find that the flavors are more distinct, intense or pronounced than in a Non-Cuban cigar, but that is also just my palate. Smoking cigars for over 26 years now, I have worked a bit on developing the palate.

An issue that also comes to mind from the initial dissuasion about the Non-Cuban B & M as well as the manufacturers is they all want to Market that they are using "Cuban Seed" tobacco. So, in other words, they want to Market their product comparing it to the "Standard" of a Cuban cigar, yet in the very same words, they are telling the consumer that the Cuban cigars are not what they once were, construction issues, quality issues, etc. So the Non-Cuban Manufacturers need to make up their mind, either they want to use the Cuban Cigars as the "Standard" or they don't.

Now another issue has been discussed, and that is aging of the cigars. Well, ever since the cigar boom of the late 90's, the inventories at the retailers of Cuban cigars which had historically "aged" the Habanos prior to selling to the end user consumer, has been changed over to being the responsibility of the end user. So sorry, but that is just a fact in todays market.

What drives me crazy is when I read that someone just got a box of Cuban cigars and has already opened them up and started smoking them with a week or two from arrival. Lets think about this, someone takes a box of cigars out of a humidification system and wraps them up, puts them in the mail and transports them in an airplane under pressure (rapid increase and decrease and sometimes several times), then travels around on a truck during the heat of the day, and finally they arrive at your door. Well reason will tell you that because of so much transition, the cigars are going to be in a funk. It takes time to adjust and stabilize in a properly humidified humidor before they are going to taste like anything. There just can not be enough said about humidor time to bring the flavors and complexity out in a cigar. This can be said about ANY cigar, no matter if it is from your local tobacconist or from far off countries. Perhaps it is an issue of wanting instant gratification with our cigars? Each to their own, but my experience has taught me that keeping ALL new purchases in the humidor for a minimum of 30-45 days to allow them time to adjust will bring out more from the cigar than trying them immediately upon or shortly after arrival.

Smoking technique is another issue for many cigar smokers, Because a lot of cigar smokers in my opinion try to rush a cigar and smoke it way too fast, the flavors are bitter, harsh and it just does not make for a pleasant smoking experience.

So, in a short summary, I find that for the most part, the misinformation past on the the local consumers from the B & M tobacconist concerning the Cuban cigars vs the Non-Cuban cigars creates doubt in the consumer. This along with the Fakes Cuban cigars that are all over the market place make the consumer have additional doubt about what a cigar should taste like. I agree that the vast majority of cigar smokers in the USA (and probably many other markets as well) have never smoked a legitimate Habanos, so they have never had a comparison.

I smoke a lot of cigars, and have for many years. I smoke for taste and complexity. I enjoy having a diverse palate because I enjoy a wide range of different flavors, therefore, I smoke Cuban cigars for the majority. They have for my palate the peaks and valleys (complexity) that I seek in a cigar and with an extremely few exceptions, a couple of Non-Cubans can fall into this category. I also believe that you should smoke what you enjoy and enjoy what you smoke.


----------



## beezer

*Re: Why do some people think non-Cubans cigars are as good of better than Cuban cigars?*

I got to thinking the other day. Who's to say that there isn't Cuban tabacco in some of the sticks manufactured in Dominican Republic, Nicaragua, or Honduras.? Just like General Honduran bundles are the same as Excalibur, Punch and Hoyo de Monterrey just without bands and there are other manufacturers that do the same or the seconds that Rocky puts out along with others ,this may go on with Cubans. They can't be all perfect and need to be sold. The tabacco doesn't all go into cigars but needs to be sold. It could be possibe it gets sold to these other manufacturing countries to make blends and go into our NC's. I wouldn't think there is a US Marshall policing the tabacaleros. Also just because we have an embargo against Cuba doesn't mean those other countries do as well. They could put any tabacco they want to make a blend and who would know the difference. Jimmy Carter had a peanut farm but had no peanuts in the warehouse. The peanuts had to come from somewhere.

Just a thought. I've been known to be wrong before.


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## Thurm15

*Re: Why do some people think non-Cubans cigars are as good of better than Cuban cigars?*

I'm sure there are folks out there that really do prefer Non Cuban to Cuban cigars just as there are people that prefer Boone's farm Wild Berry to a Vintage Fonseca Port. It's all a matter of taste.


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## Eternal Rider

*Re: Why do some people think non-Cubans cigars are as good of better than Cuban cigars?*

Very nice post informitive. the debate between Cubans and non-cubans will go on for years. There is one thing though to remember the growers and blenders who left Cuba are always trying to match the taste they had in Cuba. They will tell you they use the same seed, but the soil is different and that leads to a different taste. they compare their cigars to Cubans,always trying to get that taste they knew long ago. In the end there is a difference between Cubans and Non-Cubans and the Cubans always win.


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## galaga

beezer said:


> I got to thinking the other day. Who's to say that there isn't Cuban tabacco in some of the sticks manufactured in Dominican Republic, Nicaragua, or Honduras.? Just like General Honduran bundles are the same as Excalibur, Punch and Hoyo de Monterrey just without bands and there are other manufacturers that do the same or the seconds that Rocky puts out along with others ,this may go on with Cubans. They can't be all perfect and need to be sold. The tabacco doesn't all go into cigars but needs to be sold. It could be possibe it gets sold to these other manufacturing countries to make blends and go into our NC's. I wouldn't think there is a US Marshall policing the tabacaleros. Also just because we have an embargo against Cuba doesn't mean those other countries do as well. They could put any tabacco they want to make a blend and who would know the difference. Jimmy Carter had a peanut farm but had no peanuts in the warehouse. The peanuts had to come from somewhere.
> 
> Just a thought. I've been known to be wrong before.


Well, it would be more likely that it is the other way around. Cuban growers get into a bind and find a very attractive wrapper leaf with respectable properties, or some nice binder leaf that tastes good. Who's to know otherwise if the cuban manufactures don't say otherwise. As for Cuban leaf going out of the country, it used to in the past, mainly to America. There were many cigars rolled here pre-embargo that were made from Cuban leaf, but not now. It is a strict communist country, and cigars is one of a very few ways for the economy to stay afloat. They guard the stuff like it was gold, because it is.

Now, as for non-Cuban cigars that taste like Cuban cigars, it doesn't happen very often, but it has happened to me, both with what could be called second tier smokes. One was a bundled smoke of 25 I had gotten and one out of the twenty five had that twange, the rest were OK to so-so, a nice yard-gar. One was given to me at So7Cal with the admonition, "here, you like domestics, try this smoke, you might be surprised" So here I am at So7Cal smoking a churchill Cigar-shop brand and for the first half I couldn't tell it from a well aged and "on" cuban. I had taken the band off, not that they are snobby at SoCal, but believe me, well let's just say you see some amazing things at SoCal. I would have to say that until I got halfway through, it was a cuban cigar. So I seek out my benifactor, where did you get this smoke? I got it up the road from a wine store, ya see that smoke was made from Jalapa tobacco, it's the wine store's brand. I told you there was some great leaf commng out of Nicarauga from Jalapa, and this is what I was talking about. I'm going to have to get up there and get some of these, I said. We'll, he replied, you're a little too late. They have stopped making these for the wine store because I heard some people came and bought up all the output of that particular tobacco and shipped it off to Cuba.

Chasing after that Cuban twange in non-Cuban smokes is futile. If they could consistantly produce the Cuban flavor, they would charge an arm and a leg for it. The best thing for me to do is develope a taste for the a particular country's cigars. To me there is a nice twange to a Niicaruaguan cigar that I can really enjoy if I'm in the mood for it. If there is consistancy in the flavor, and I like that flavor, then it's nice to know that flavor will be there when I'm in the mood for it.


----------



## beezer

*Re: Why do some people think non-Cubans cigars are as good of better than Cuban cigars?*



beezer said:


> I got to thinking the other day. Who's to say that there isn't Cuban tabacco in some of the sticks manufactured in Dominican Republic, Nicaragua, or Honduras.? Just like General Honduran bundles are the same as Excalibur, Punch and Hoyo de Monterrey just without bands and there are other manufacturers that do the same or the seconds that Rocky puts out along with others ,this may go on with Cubans. They can't be all perfect and need to be sold. The tabacco doesn't all go into cigars but needs to be sold. It could be possibe it gets sold to these other manufacturing countries to make blends and go into our NC's. I wouldn't think there is a US Marshall policing the tabacaleros. Also just because we have an embargo against Cuba doesn't mean those other countries do as well. They could put any tabacco they want to make a blend and who would know the difference. Jimmy Carter had a peanut farm but had no peanuts in the warehouse. The peanuts had to come from somewhere.
> 
> Just a thought. I've been known to be wrong before.


Since I talked to Benji Menendez from Partagas today I learned something new which answered my question. Cuba does not sell tabacco to other countries. Cuba does buy tabacco at times to make cigars from Nicaragua because of their political ties.
Benji came from Cuba and his favorite cigar is the Partagas Spanish Rosado.


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## stogie_kanobie_one

68TriShield said:


> I have to go with Rick on this.I love a good cigar be it cc or nc.There are some nc cigars that I enjoy every bit as much as a fine cc.That being said, I believe that all cuban cigars have a distinct flavor that cant be duplicated in a nc.When that is the taste I want thats what I go for...:2 FWIW...


:tpd: Said it exactly as I was thinking it.


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## Bob

*Re: Why do some people think non-Cubans cigars are as good of better than Cuban cigars?*

The way I understand it from my own looking into the subject Cuba does not send its tobacco to other countries to be formed with other tobaccos. Other countries do have bans on Cuban tobacco. As stated earlier the soil and the fertilizer is different. Also, chicken manure is different than cow, horse, donkey etc. Things taste different considering the minerals in the soil. I would say though that UK, Switzerland, etc are the biggest importers of Cuban product. JMHO. At this point I will state unequivically that the taste of a C and NC is different ...call it the "twang" effect if you wish. Heck, it has been stated here before that if you could bottle that effect then all the NC's would have it. But apparently it has yet to be replicated. But, what do I know? Being a noob to cigars is a great experience. To learn the differences first hand is a great experience too. My best answer I can give is buy store bought tomatos and go grow a few tomatos of your own and then check the differences. It is bound to be different. But what do I know?


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## Lumpold

hornitosmonster said:


> Question
> 
> Once the embargo is long gone..will Cubans still taste the same?
> 
> Cubans are great...I'm not experienced like most of the guys around here but I have had legit Cubans...They are good..can't argue against that.
> 
> But I truely do believe that cubans being illegal adds to the experience of smoking the fine cuban cigar...Our minds work in funny ways...it is basic psychology. So in addition to getting some fine Tobac you are getting a psychological "High".
> 
> Just my :2


Maybe this is true in the US, but what about for the rest of us who aren't American?


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## Zoomschwortz

*Re: Why do some people think non-Cubans cigars are as good of better than Cuban cigars?*

Wow, great read but since I have only had, 1 Cuban which happend to be a Cohiba, while in Canada, well it's kinda like discovering that I may still be a virgin.

Now I will always wonder.

Thanks
Ken


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## txmatt

My all time favorite cigar to date was a custom rolled Cuban.. I don't buy Cubans though, I can find plenty of cigars I love without ordering them from out of the country. I have enjoyed smoking over 100 Cuban cigars in the past few years thanks to generous gorillas here, and some of them have been outstanding. I have had them decades old and still green. In my opinion there are plenty of cigars imported from locations other than Cuba that are as good as or better.

I have been smoking cigars 14 years now, I think I have a decent and developed pallate. Perhaps I am incapable of detecting their superiority because my genetics aren't as good as some of yours?

I think plenty of new smokers start smoking Cubans primarily before their pallate has had a chance to develop and they don't learn how to experience and enjoy all of the flavors Dominican, Nicaraguan, Honduran, Costa Rican, American, Italian, Ecuadorian, Brazilian, Peruvian, Mexican, African, etc. tobaccos can provide that Cuban tobacco _cannot_. There are flavors the Cuban tobacco offers that the others can not; noone is going to convince me this flavor is superior though.

I also buy my coffee from around the world. Perhaps some choose to drink only Jamaican Blue Mountain coffee because it is "the best". I will NEVER be convinced of that because there are many flavors in other coffee that the Jamaican coffee won't have. I will NEVER be convinced Cuban cigars are better than what the rest of the world produces either.

IMO Cubans aren't the holy grail many of you make them out to be. Cuban only smokers are missing out on a wonderful variety of flavors that the tobacco from other nations offer. If a person is content with that it is fine by me. What isn't fine is being told the reason I don't agree that Cuban cigars are the best is because my pallate and/or genetics are inferior, or I am _swayed by marketing_. Those assertions smell of 7 year old Madagascar Vanilla to me.


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## SeanGAR

txmatt said:


> Those assertions smell of 7 year old Madagascar Vanilla to me.


See, there's where you're wrong. It was 5 year-old Tahitian vanilla.


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## j6ppc

> I have been smoking cigars 14 years now, I think I have a decent and developed pallate. Perhaps I am incapable of detecting their superiority because my genetics aren't as good as some of yours?


I doubt that- Cigars are subjective, some prefer one others prefer another; value free that is how things are.


> I think plenty of new smokers start smoking Cubans primarily before their pallate has had a chance to develop and they don't learn how to experience and enjoy all of the flavors Dominican, Nicaraguan, Honduran, Costa Rican, American, Italian, Ecuadorian, Brazilian, Peruvian, Mexican, African, etc. tobaccos can provide that Cuban tobacco _cannot_. There are flavors the Cuban tobacco offers that the others can not; noone is going to convince me this flavor is superior though.


No one has to convince anyone else about anything. I tend to prefer Cubans over non Cubans not because my palate is uneducated (smoking cigars for over 20 years and judge wines in international competition) but rather because more often than not (*not always though*) they suit my mood.


> I also buy my coffee from around the world. Perhaps some choose to drink only Jamaican Blue Mountain coffee because it is "the best". I will NEVER be convinced of that because there are many flavors in other coffee that the Jamaican coffee won't have. I will NEVER be convinced Cuban cigars are better than what the rest of the world produces either.


 Back to the whole "to each his/her own" thingie.


txmatt said:


> IMO Cubans aren't the holy grail many of you make them out to be. Cuban only smokers are missing out on a wonderful variety of flavors that the tobacco from other nations offer. If a person is content with that it is fine by me. What isn't fine is being told the reason I don't agree that Cuban cigars are the best is because my pallate and/or genetics are inferior, or I am _swayed by marketing_. Those assertions smell of 7 year old Madagascar Vanilla to me.


At the end of the day we smoke what we like. We also all enjoy cigars.
There is room for everyone's taste, even room for unedjumicated philistine n00b palates like my own :hn .


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## Charles

*Re: Why do some people think non-Cubans cigars are as good of better than Cuban cigars?*

Thanks for the post. The best cigars that I have ever smoked were gifted Upmann No. 2s.


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## Joekendall04

SeanGAR said:


> See, there's where you're wrong. It was 5 year-old Tahitian vanilla.


:r

great post and great discussion on the topic.


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## habanaman

Joekendall04 said:


> :r
> 
> great post and great discussion on the topic.


well i think this happend only in U.S.A. because in the rest of the world 95% think that like cuban cigars don't exsist nothing!!!

My be because in U.S.A. cuban cigars are illegal!?

I think Yes.

The good or beautifull is so in each part of the world ,but if you can't have the best you say that the best is that you have!

Angelo


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## SeanGAR

Joekendall04 said:


> :r
> 
> great post and great discussion on the topic.


Why thank you. I am pleased to see somebody with a refined knowledge of vanilla posting in this thread.

As you know, Tahitian vanilla has more of a sweet floral aroma than Madagascar or Mexican vanilla. I will copy a small bit from a web source for the unwashed masses ... but I am certain a true connaisseur like yourself knows this by heart. I might note that Comoros and Madagascar vanillas are tough to pick apart. Thats why people speaking of flavors of 7-year old Madagascar vanilla is such a joke. It could easily be 7 year old Comoro vanilla. Duh!

_*Bourbon beans are long and slender, with a very rich taste and smell, have thick, oily skin, contain an abundance of tiny seeds, and have a strong vanilla aroma. Bourbon beans from Madagascar and the Comoros are described as having a creamy, haylike, and sweet, with vanillin overtones. Bourbon beans from other regions will be similar if they are picked at peak ripeness and are properly cured.

Mexican beans are very similar to Bourbon beans though they have a more mellow, smooth, quality and a spicy, woody fragrance.

Tahitian beans are usually shorter, plumper, and contain a higher oil and water content than Bourbon beans. The skin is thinner, they contain fewer seeds, and the aroma is fruity and floral. They are often described as smelling like licorice, cherry, prunes, or wine.*_


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## EKG

Clearly there are experienced cigar smokers that enjoy non Cubans as much or more then Cubans. Think about it, there are nine billion people in the world, with at least one that frequents this board saying as much.

I can see as clearly that for every one of those people there are 10 that overtly or covertly think worse of them for it. 

This entire thread basically implies, sometimes outright says, that if you have had many Cubans and many non-Cubans, and prefer non-Cubans, something is simply wrong with you. Either you don't have an experienced enough palate, or you're storing them wrong, or you were duped by fakes.

Me, I'm definately not experienced enough to decide for myself. I'm just saying that in something that is literally a matter of taste, with such close price ranges and such a similar product, to say that one is definately better then the other, and if you don't think so well you're wrong, its just crazy.

For example, can you say that one Cuban brand, and then one vitola is better then any other Cuban cigar? They all taste slightly different.


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## calistogey

hornitosmonster said:


> Question
> But I truely do believe that cubans being illegal adds to the experience of smoking the fine cuban cigar...Our minds work in funny ways...it is basic psychology. So in addition to getting some fine Tobac you are getting a psychological "High".
> 
> Just my :2


In contrast however, how many bros. are there who line up after every major holiday to try to pick a few sticks of those so called high-end, elusive, limited release, but ridiculously over priced smokes. Yet, we all know that most of them do have access to any cigar available through any LCdH. Yes the mind does work in funny ways.

I think we can all agree that this argument can go on forever. IMO however, it wouldn't be fair to clump and judge all CC's and NC's and make certain generalizations at to their "only characteristic" and say that one must choose between one or the other.

Based on my personal experience, I find it acceptable to pick an aged JLP rather than let say a fresh PAM or PAN, but anyone who picks a Los Statos over an aged Opus, DC or one of those SG Rosados ought to have their palate checked. Perhaps purchasing smokes at the local convenience store would be better.JMHO of course


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## wij

EKG said:


> This entire thread basically implies, sometimes outright says, that if you have had many Cubans and many non-Cubans, and prefer non-Cubans, something is simply wrong with you. Either you don't have an experienced enough palate, or you're storing them wrong, or you were duped by fakes.


Interesting that you feel that way, because I never once thought that any BOTL would think you were crazy or malfuncting if you perfer NC's. Now, one might joke, but most here are very accepting to each persons freedom to like what they like.

Also, this is a Habanos forum, thus most people that read this forum, will perfer a cuban cigar. Had this thread been started in the General Cigar forum I think your statement might have more validity.

I'm certainly open to all opinions.


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## Kurt-Holz

*Re: Why do some people think non-Cubans cigars are as good of better than Cuban cigars?*

Long time Cubano fan myself, i have been thru all the phases and pitfalls of Cubans the last 12 years or so, in my opinion, they are 98% of the time better than anything else out there, though i keep trying to find nc's i can enjoy, i did buy 5 Fuente #50 Anejo's, and i have to admit, it really blew me away, i also thought the Opus when first released was a great smoke,but havent had a decent one in years,( maybe i am just unlucky)

as for me, Cubano's will most likely always constitute the greatest part of my collection,but, they are different than 10+ years ago, i remember Hoyo DC that would make you cry they were so spicy and pungent, hard to find like that now

i think the greatest value are some of the smaller sizes, that can be had for cheap, Raphael Gonzalez being an example, they can be just wonderful,

One thing i have learned or done, every box i buy, i always put 5 in a different humidor, which has grown very large over the last 10+ years, these i enjoy at special times, age does affect even an average Cubano

my two cents, headed for the backyard to enjoy one now

Kurt


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## luckybandit

this is one of the best threads i have read on the forum. i am glad i have now had the good experience of smoking both. dollar for dollar i have found some wonderful cuban sticks, some even costing much less than the overpriced NC's i have seen at the local B & M. i'm just glad i have been fortunate to have found my way to this forum and have been able to aquire sticks from all around the world to enjoy. I know i'll have my favorites and over time my tastes will change so these favorites will as well!


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## MikeZ

I think the debate makes for great conversation. I've had a few years of NC smoking experience and less than a year of Habanos experience. However, the difference is quite plain to me. I agree that on the whole, Cubans are significantly more enjoyable. In fact, I have been almost habanos exclusive since the beginning of 2006. I've smoked two NCs this year and couldn't wait to finish them. I'm not sophisticated enough to be able to describe in any detail what I didn't like about the pair of NCs or what I like so much more with the Cubans. Of course I don't have to. We can all be a slave to our own preferences. At the end of 2005 I purchased a handful of premium NCs. I've got Opus, Aurora 100 Anos, Padron '26 and '64 Maddies, Anejo's, LGC Figurados and Fuente Don Carlos. I haven't smoked a single one yet. Actually, I'm excited about the future prospect of comparing an aged Opus against some of my Cuban inventory. For now though, I'm really enjoying BBF, Monte#2, Siglo VI, Edmundo and PSP2. Who could want for more, or better?


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## Mister Moo

Bump. This deserves more exposure after sitting idle for two years. I rediscovered this thread after being awed by a Tatuaje Reserva SW OTB. 

That, and I try to smoke a cigar and bring the rare experience to the publics attention every year or so.


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## ahbroody

Love CC's. Pretty much only buying them of late.

That said I think PAM's and 64m's as well as Anejo are better than the cohiba M. Having had all the above I just cannot believe anyone would argue the cohiba M is a better stick.

Also while not better I think some of the Pepin lines are equally as entertaining as some CC. When put together with the fact some are scarred to order CC they are a good alternative. I have definetly smoked some CC that I would take a pepin over. Although I dont think I will be picking up aged madagascar vanilla in the pepins. Rofl.

Meh to each his own and thats why this forum is so great.


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## Costa

Great read. I love when you veterans bump up a post that I was not around to read. Thanks for bumping and thanks Mark for such a great read.


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## krisko

I think the Tatuaje Blacks are every bit as good as any CC I've ever had. I also think the Padron 1926 and Anniversary cigars are the equal of most Cubans. I had a 40th Anniversary last week that was probably the best cigar I've ever had.

That said, I've been acquiring a ton of CCs of late to age for at least a few years. The only NCs I'm getting are trades of special stuff that I have yet to try. I would say that 50% of the cigars I smoke currently are CCs but almost 100% of the cigar I'm currently buying are CCs.


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## Addiction

ahbroody said:


> .....
> That said I think PAM's and 64m's as well as Anejo are better than the cohiba M. Having had all the above I just cannot believe anyone would argue the cohiba M is a better stick.......


I'd argue it. I'll take a Genios, Secretos or Magicos over the PAM or Anejo any day, in fact I sold off hundreds of Anejos and about 60 PAM to turn them into CCs which included Secretos and Genios.

I'd also say in 12 months or more, the Secretos will be as good or better and the PAMs will be slightly diminished.


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## hk3

Addiction said:


> I'd argue it. I'll take a Genios, Secretos or Magicos over the PAM or Anejo any day, in fact I sold off hundreds of Anejos and about 60 PAM to turn them into CCs which included Secretos and Genios.
> 
> I'd also say in 12 months or more, the Secretos will be as good or better and the PAMs will be slightly diminished.


:tpd: I have to agree with ya. I have never had a padron or Anejo that was anywhere close to the Maduros 5's I've smoked and I've *never* had a NC that touched some of the CC's I've smoked. But, this is all based on what *I* like in a flavor profile.


----------



## boonedoggle

I'd have to add that La Riqueza is a very fierce fo to CCs. With age, personally, they may become a fierce contender. Just me 2 dice.


----------



## Addiction

n2advnture said:


> ...........
> The third problem is "user error". WAY too many cigar smokers simply smoke cigars too quickly. Smoking too quickly causes a cigar to get too hot which, more often than not, will turn any cigar into a harsh and bitter smoke. I just thought I* would point this out even though it doesn't make a difference between smoking a Cuban or non-Cuban.* Any cigar's subtly will be ruined by smoking too quickly.
> ...........


Excellent post Mark, but I think smoking quickly affects Cubans a little more. Cubans are typically thinner cigars and the thinner a cigar is the easier it is to oversmoke it.


----------



## Addiction

boonedoggle said:


> I'd have to add that La Riqueza is a very fierce fo to CCs. With age, personally, they may become a fierce contender. Just me 2 dice.


I had a La Riqueza today on a two hour drive and I have to admit it was DAMN good. I may have to pick up a box of those in the future.


----------



## SeanGAR

Cuban cigars will NEVER attain the power, the fragrance, the unforgettable flavor of a phillies blunt strawberry or strawberry swishers. 

In fact, philosophers for centuries have debated the superiority of phillies or swishers. 

Have they done the same for cuban cigars? Bof ... I think not.

NCs are clearly superior. Anybody who would disagree and choose a Quintero churchill or Dunhill cabinetta over a phillies strawberry is just in need of eduction. 

I doubt preferring cubans is a character flaw or due to genetic mutation, although this argument has been made.


----------



## chenvt

SeanGAR said:


> Cuban cigars will NEVER attain the power, the fragrance, the unforgettable flavor of a phillies blunt strawberry or strawberry swishers.
> 
> In fact, philosophers for centuries have debated the superiority of phillies or swishers.
> 
> Have they done the same for cuban cigars? Bof ... I think not.
> 
> NCs are clearly superior. Anybody who would disagree and choose a Quintero churchill or Dunhill cabinetta over a phillies strawberry is just in need of eduction.
> 
> I doubt preferring cubans is a character flaw or due to genetic mutation, although this argument has been made.


:tpd:.. I need to have jolly ranchers in my mouth while I smoke a cohiba esplendido to even attempt the taste of a phillies strawberry


----------



## Snake Hips

Very nice read. I had the "ah HA!" moment on my first Cuban, which was a Cohiba Siglo VI I had in Spain. However, I do say that I've had many unappealing CCs compared to some NCs I've had, but the CCs I've had that were ON were simply uncomparable. I don't have a developed enough palette yet to discern the different nuances and subtle changes throughout the stick, but I could definitely tell right away that there was simply a depth of flavor I have yet to experience in anything outside of that island. But given only MY experience, I would say NCs are fair contenders these days simply because of the "enjoyed" to "not enjoyed" ratio of my entire cigar-smoking experience, but given proper treatment and patience, Cubans blow them away so far as I've seen.


----------



## Mister Moo

SeanGAR said:


> Cuban cigars will NEVER attain the power, the fragrance, the unforgettable flavor of ... strawberry swishers.


You have been breathing burning clutch for so long your smoke-buds are shot. Change to a Trek and you'll come around. :tu


----------



## Addiction

krisko said:


> I think the Tatuaje Blacks are every bit as good as any CC I've ever had. I also think the Padron 1926 and Anniversary cigars are the equal of most Cubans. I had a 40th Anniversary last week that was probably the best cigar I've ever had.
> 
> That said, I've been acquiring a ton of CCs of late to age for at least a few years. The only NCs I'm getting are trades of special stuff that I have yet to try. I would say that 50% of the cigars I smoke currently are CCs but almost 100% of the cigar I'm currently buying are CCs.


Krisko,

I'd been thinking on this and tried another Tat Black this morning. Its aged cigar but its only variance comes from do you get a little more or less of the predominant flavor. I think that with Cubans you get that taste where it can start peppery but end up floral, or turn quickly to a sugary vanilla or caramel flavor. Every NC I still smoke including La Riqeuza, Padron, Tats, etc are pretty much the same beginning to end.

I could completely understand why you love the Tats but for me 9 times out of ten if offered a choice between a Tat and most cubans I take the cuban.


----------



## One Lonely Smoker

I think it's all your frame of reference. Most people do not even know about Tatuaje, and the only reason they do is because of their supposed similarities to CCs and likely because the guy that fronts em is probably touted as a grade 7 former havana roller, etc, etc. Forgive me if I don't know because I have not been inside an American tobacco store in 4 years. But I would much rather explore new brands and sizes in the Havana catalog than any country or combination of countries outside Cuba. I can expect flavor development that only a few NC brands even try for. I can enjoy the mystique and real tradition of 5 centuries, although Fidel Uck-Fayed it all up, and no one will probably ever understand that he can be blamed for the end of the greatest tradition in the new world. He'll die and it may not ever dawn on most smokers. But I digress. 
It is why there are so many brands out there, and so many ads in that fish wrapper, Cigar Aficionade. Because it's a wonderful feeling, having a fine cigar, and NO ONE has to love any cigar more than another. You can light a cigar and thing "THAT'S what I've been looking for! I will become a dedicated "insert brand here" smoker. It ain't a contest. No one is forcing anyone to smoke Havanas, or break the law to smoke Havanas. Smoke what you like, believe what you really believe, and enjoy it. If a person does not get it, they never will get it. You either think it is the finest tobacco grown on the planet or you don't.


----------



## nasa25

n2advnture said:


> The third problem is "user error". WAY too many cigar smokers simply smoke cigars too quickly. Smoking too quickly causes a cigar to get too hot which, more often than not, will turn any cigar into a harsh and bitter smoke. I just thought I would point this out even though it doesn't make a difference between smoking a Cuban or non-Cuban. Any cigar's subtly will be ruined by smoking too quickly.
> 
> ~Mark


very good point.....the hotter you smoke a cigar the more bitter and unpleasant it gets. If you don't have the time to ebjoy a cigar, you should just hold off until you do.


----------



## Lanthor

One Lonely Smoker said:


> If a person does not get it, they never will get it. You either think it is the finest tobacco grown on the planet or you don't.


Kind of like trying to change someone's political views, ain't gonna happen.

I think it is the finest tobacco rolled by the worst rollers, or at least with the worst standards.

I have been really enjoying NC's recently after the last year on the other side, imo people who are exclusive in anything miss out.

I also dig it when old threads get bumped.


----------



## M1903A1

One Lonely Smoker said:


> I think it's all your frame of reference. Most people do not even know about Tatuaje, and the only reason they do is because of their supposed similarities to CCs and likely because the guy that fronts em is probably touted as a grade 7 former havana roller, etc, etc. Forgive me if I don't know because I have not been inside an American tobacco store in 4 years. But I would much rather explore new brands and sizes in the Havana catalog than any country or combination of countries outside Cuba. I can expect flavor development that only a few NC brands even try for. I can enjoy the mystique and real tradition of 5 centuries, although Fidel Uck-Fayed it all up, and no one will probably ever understand that he can be blamed for the end of the greatest tradition in the new world. He'll die and it may not ever dawn on most smokers. But I digress.
> It is why there are so many brands out there, and so many ads in that fish wrapper, Cigar Aficionade. Because it's a wonderful feeling, having a fine cigar, and NO ONE has to love any cigar more than another. You can light a cigar and thing "THAT'S what I've been looking for! I will become a dedicated "insert brand here" smoker. It ain't a contest. No one is forcing anyone to smoke Havanas, or break the law to smoke Havanas. Smoke what you like, believe what you really believe, and enjoy it. If a person does not get it, they never will get it. You either think it is the finest tobacco grown on the planet or you don't.


:tpd:

The embargo won't last forever; so we'll eventually experience a few interesting years as they rediscover "the greatest tradition in the new world".

In the words of Cheech, "Light up another one, eh!" :ss


----------



## Cadillac

Full Bodied Bruce said:


> I have purchased sampler packs of 5 from three different suppliers who have been recommended by a site you are all familiar with. So I do not believe I have counterfeits sitting in my humi.After a week in the humi I smoked one out of each sampler box and I was disappointed each time. Maybe my expectations were too high, maybe my palet has not yet developed enough to really appreciate these smokes.They were all good but not great.
> I have read that Cubans do not age their cigars after manufacturing them. I also read in a news letter I received this week that a Cuban mild should be aged at least a year before smoking them. The stronger blends require 2-5 years. So I am in a quandry on what to next. Am thinking about trying one or two at Chrismas time before buying any boxes, knowing that might be jumping the gun.
> Meanwhile I have plenty of NC's that I really enjoy.


Something I've learned:

A lot of the online retailers sell their stock in 5 packs or singles (at 50% or whatever) as samplers. Many are remainders from open boxes - Too tight leftovers, discoloured, whatever. Good to purchase as a flavour sample of a particular brand, but that's about it.


----------



## JGIORD

I don't think I can agree with the premiss of your argument. IMHO there are a few non cuban cigars on the market that are just as good as Cubans.

The main problem with Cuban cigars is consistency and quality of construction. Both of which are superior with non-Cubans or what I've always called domestic smokes.

After this point it really comes down to subjective tastes. Try a Cabaiguan Belicoso Fino. I think you would be hard pressed to not think that it was perhaps a Cuban cigar, if you didn't already know it.

Other DPG smokes are very good, as good as Cubans but different. My main beef is consistency and lack of quality control.
:chk


----------



## One Lonely Smoker

Yeah, but it's PREFERENCE, ma man...I do not prefer to have choice. I do not _*find*_ construction problems with the cigars I have, and I _*prefer*_ the taste of the tobacco. You can say I am out of date or uninformed, and that is true. I have abandoned all things B&M. I get what I want delivered to me.

I think that if the embargo were to end and that meant that all the fields would be properly managed, fertilized and rotated, I would be happier. I do not hold out the same hope for the individual brands. There is no competition and no real factory/brand personality now, and that is sad. Nope, I prefer to believe that Fidel got the gangsters out of his country and then promptly ruined 5oo years of fine tradition. He is the biggest scourge in tobacco, worse than beetles, blue mold and jineteras rolled into one bearded a-hole. But do I give a crap about taste-alikes from Nic and Hon? Hell no, never will. If I go off of Cuban tobacco, it will likely be to JR bundles from mexico. Cause then I won't care, anyway.
--------
OH, and I hate bumped threads like this too. Search it out, read it and then leave it where you found it. If you can't imagine people going 'hmm, I'm GLAD this guy bumped that thread', then just leave it uncommented on. But that's just me.


----------



## Addiction

JGIORD said:


> .......After this point it really comes down to subjective tastes. Try a Cabaiguan Belicoso Fino. I think you would be hard pressed to not think that it was perhaps a Cuban cigar, if you didn't already know it.......


I've smoked almost a lot of Cabis and I don't think anyone with any significant cuban smoking experience would mistake any of those cigars as cuban. I just don't think its possible and I actually use to like those QUITE a lot.

It might seem the next logical progression would be to offer a blind taste test, please don't those never work.


----------



## One Lonely Smoker

Cadillac said:


> Something I've learned:
> 
> A lot of the online retailers sell their stock in 5 packs or singles (at 50% or whatever) as samplers. Many are remainders from open boxes - Too tight leftovers, discoloured, whatever. Good to purchase as a flavour sample of a particular brand, but that's about it.


That's the point, isn't it. Forbidden fruit is not always better, and if you LIKE something, you should stick with it. It's alot easier to explain to the federales. Just because everyone says they are fantastic doesn't mean they are right for YOU. It's mostly about enjoying what you smoke.


----------



## jkim05

Addiction said:


> I've smoked almost a lot of Cabis and I don't think anyone with any significant cuban smoking experience would mistake any of those cigars as cuban. I just don't think its possible and I actually use to like those QUITE a lot.
> 
> It might seem the next logical progression would be to offer a blind taste test, please don't those never work.


already forgot the big blind taste test thread? Specifically this review of a Cabaiguan. Never say never my friend.

I have my own opinions, but most of my thoughts have already been echoed. I'll leave it as this: I almost exclusively smoke habanos these days, but I have faith in NC's and think they're better than some people think.


----------



## elderboy02

Nice post! :tu


----------



## Addiction

jkim05 said:


> already forgot the big blind taste test thread? Specifically this review of a Cabaiguan. Never say never my friend.
> 
> I have my own opinions, but most of my thoughts have already been echoed. I'll leave it as this: I almost exclusively smoke habanos these days, but I have faith in NC's and think they're better than some people think.


I'm not saying NCs are not good, just saying they are not comparable is al its different like American muscle and Italian precision kind of thing. Each has their place but they are definitely different.


----------



## hotreds

Because oft times they are!


----------



## pro2625

I guess Im in the minority also.....Ive smoked under 10 cubans and while they tasted good they all pretty much tasted the same to me (different sticks) and there were construction issues with most of them.

With that said I do like that cuban flavor but dont like the cuban prices....If there were more value cuban sticks Id buy mor but I can afford $10-$15 a stick like most of you


----------



## romwarrior

pro2625 said:


> If there were more value cuban sticks Id buy mor but I can afford $10-$15 a stick like most of you


If I had to spend that much on habanos I wouldn't be able to do it. Most of my stock costs well below that range. I find habanos to be a *better *value than nc's. While I have some incredible $5 habanos, the few nc's that I like as much all cost 2-3 times as much.

:2


----------



## Rolando

I have had NCs that rivaled the CC experience but they cost a lot more and they still weren't the same. Basically I just try not to think about it too much and I keep writing letters yearly to politicians slamming them for an embargo that has proven it will NEVER work.

Agriculture is affected by regions... there is just no getting over that. When you take cuban seeds and plant them in non-cuban soil they will not ever grow cuban tobacco.


----------



## SeanGAR

jkim05 said:


> already forgot the big blind taste test thread


30+ year old cigars, ones I can't buy, ... gee ... to explain why this is a ridiculous taste test I need to explain the concepts of normal distribution and outliers. This is the same as trying to answer the question "are men taller than women" by hand selecting 5 tall women and 5 short men. Sorry, but that "taste test" tells me absolutely nothing.


----------



## romwarrior

The whole blind taste test is kind of silly to me. No one can argue that ALL habanos are better than ALL nc's, or even that ALL habanos can be discerned as such by taste alone. All countries are capable of making bad and good cigars. But when a habano is on, there isn't any nc that is capable of even coming close, IMHO. The best nc's I've had have definitely left me happy and thinking about them for hours, but the best habanos I've had have left me dreaming about them for months.


----------



## LasciviousXXX

SeanGAR said:


> 30+ year old cigars, ones I can't buy, ... gee ... to explain why this is a ridiculous taste test I need to explain the concepts of normal distribution and outliers. This is the same as trying to answer the question "are men taller than women" by hand selecting 5 tall women and 5 short men. Sorry, but that "taste test" tells me absolutely nothing.


Tis true. It was said by many FOG's in that thread... that test was nowhere near what most of us would consider fair and balanced.

All it did was prove to me that some people never change :2


----------



## pro2625

romwarrior said:


> If I had to spend that much on habanos I wouldn't be able to do it. Most of my stock costs well below that range. I find habanos to be a *better *value than nc's. While I have some incredible $5 habanos, the few nc's that I like as much all cost 2-3 times as much.
> 
> :2


Everywhere I look they are more expensive than $5 a stick....


----------



## mikeyj23

pro2625 said:


> Everywhere I look they are more expensive than $5 a stick....


Look harder. :ss


----------



## bobarian

mikeyj23 said:


> Look harder. :ss


:r:r:r:tpd:


----------



## BigVito

....


----------



## Boomer

For the same reason that people think California wine is as good as French.


----------



## jkim05

LasciviousXXX said:


> Tis true. It was said by many FOG's in that thread... that test was nowhere near what most of us would consider fair and balanced.
> 
> All it did was prove to me that some people never change :2


Totally agree, just wanted to say that there are no absolutes when it comes to something as subjective as taste. Bryan said "no experienced habanos smoker would ever mistake an NC for a cuban cigar" and this one time it did happen. Not to say that the test was fair or unfair or right or wrong, just that sometimes things happen. But as stated, you can draw no conclusions from such a small and unique sample.


----------



## dayplanner

mikeyj23 said:


> Look harder. :ss


:r:tpd:


----------



## hk3

Boomer said:


> For the same reason that people think California wine is as good as French.


:r:r:r:r:r:tu


----------



## pro2625

mikeyj23 said:


> Look harder. :ss


Im too lazy....Id rather just buy NC's as they are easily available and I wont have to worry if they are real or fake...

Id hate to spend a bunch of money on some cubans and find out they were fake


----------



## mosesbotbol

Boomer said:


> For the same reason that people think California wine is as good as French.


For the most part, California's best is as good the top from France. Most have never had the much of the top stuff from either country.

At the mid and lower price points, I think California is a good or equal for sure. Some varietals of wine, California will never beat France in like Pinot Noir. Spend $25 on a Cab-Merlot mix from both France and California and you'll see that California is quite competitive. They both different wines and soils.

As for NC vs. Cuban. NC has an advantage of being able to create more exciting blends from all over the world. Cuban just that... cuban taste. I know in Switzerland, NC and Cuban hold an about equal preference at the tobacco stores.

Nothing beats the Cuban twang to me, but I do not think Cuban cigars are "better". Best of the NC's are equal with anything out of Cuba; just taste a little different. I do not think they are trying to copy Cuba as much now either. Even if the owners were Cuban, does not mean that Pepin (for example) is making a copy cat cigar. His cigars can live on their own merit, and immediately are not a Cuban cigar after the first couple of puff but are equally as enjoyable.


----------



## floydpink

I had an interesting thing happen this week in the Cigar Emporium, while talking to the girl working. She has worked her way though most of the cigars they carry and has made several trips to Cuba.

She mentioned that she had recently smoked "by far the best cigar I have ever had", and proceeded to show me an OpusX band.

I don't agree, but was taken back.


----------



## Blueface

My wife happens to think Cuban was the way for her to go.


----------



## epyon26

great read, thanks for the insight :tu


----------



## KenS

mosesbotbol said:


> For the most part, California's best is as good the top from France. Most have never had the much of the top stuff from either country.
> 
> At the mid and lower price points, I think California is a good or equal for sure. Some varietals of wine, California will never beat France in like Pinot Noir. Spend $25 on a Cab-Merlot mix from both France and California and you'll see that California is quite competitive. They both different wines and soils.
> 
> As for NC vs. Cuban. NC has an advantage of being able to create more exciting blends from all over the world. Cuban just that... cuban taste. * I know in Switzerland, NC and Cuban hold an about equal preference at the tobacco stores.*
> 
> Nothing beats the Cuban twang to me, but I do not think Cuban cigars are "better". Best of the NC's are equal with anything out of Cuba; just taste a little different. I do not think they are trying to copy Cuba as much now either. Even if the owners were Cuban, does not mean that Pepin (for example) is making a copy cat cigar. His cigars can live on their own merit, and immediately are not a Cuban cigar after the first couple of puff but are equally as enjoyable.


That comment really surprised me. I've been in about 10 shops in Switzerland, and I think CCs outnumber NCs by about 50 to 1. That would be Southern Switzerland, Zurich, and Geneva. What area have you been to see equal preference?


----------



## mikeyj23

Blueface said:


> My wife happens to think Cuban was the way for her to go.


Never gets old, Carlos


----------



## s_vivo

Good read, thought I would drag this up from the depths.


----------



## mhartnett

In my very, very basic experience, I'm beginning to ask the same question. Smoking a NC just hasn't been cutting it for me since trying CCs. I have around 100 NCs, though, so I'm hoping it's just a phase. A phase that lasts long enough to put some age on the NCs.


----------



## smelvis

I like both, I now have found many cc's that I really like but have yet to find the cc that I remember from 15 years ago. Maybe my memory is fading 

I like maybe 70% cc now and 30% non. But I am just guessing. When I say like I am not talking about yard gars or the such!

wow old thread!


----------



## Cigary

Taste is subjective at best and what one person loves another one hates. The only thing that matters is what each of us likes and then enjoy it. There's a bumper sticker somewhere with this sentiment.


----------



## bpegler

smelvis said:


> I like both, I now have found many cc's that I really like but have yet to find the cc that I remember from 15 years ago. Maybe my memory is fading
> 
> I like maybe 70% cc now and 30% non. But I am just guessing. When I say like I am not talking about yard gars or the such!
> 
> wow old thread!


15 years ago?

I remember CCs from the mid 90s. PSD4s were a religious experience. Hoyo DCs rocked. And all my CCs followed me home in my suitcase. 
Back then I smoked one CC a month, it was all I could do.
15 years ago I also had all my hair...


----------



## Magnate

I've also found you can get spectacular cc's for $4 - $6 each... but spectacular NC's are usually $10+

Then there's the $33 cc's... and those BETTER be good!!


----------



## smelvis

bpegler said:


> 15 years ago?
> 
> I remember CCs from the mid 90s. PSD4s were a religious experience. Hoyo DCs rocked. And all my CCs followed me home in my suitcase.
> Back then I smoked one CC a month, it was all I could do.
> 15 years ago I also had all my hair...


Yeah I can concur, I remember it like it was a religious experience though I can almost taste them they were so good. LOL


----------



## s_vivo

Lucky bastards! Everything I own / smoke is all still in diapers.


----------



## smelvis

s_vivo said:


> Lucky bastards! Everything I own / smoke is all still in diapers.


The oldest cc I have is a couple years old, I do have some old nons. I was talking about my best experience with cc's which was about 15 years ago. Then almost no cc's in between then and a couple years ago. And I might add those were almost all fake bought out of the US in person.

I now am more aware thanks to puff and have some good stuff, but still have not even come close to that one I had 15 years ago.

Make any sense? :baby:


----------



## Arnie

What a fantastic thread.

I smoke both non-Cubans and Cubans, but lately I find myself reaching for the Cubans more often. The reason for that is I prefer the flavor and the smoothness of Cubans. Somehow they seem more refined to me, with subtle flavors coming and going. It's a little bit like the difference between brandy and Cognac. To use the aforementioned wine reference: 20 years ago those big, oaky California Chardonnays were all the rage when a nice French White Burgundy was far more flavorful albeit in a less direct way, and paired far better with food. But it was hard to convince people of that, they wanted the wine to punch them in the face. 

With CC's you have to pay a little closer attention to the flavors coming at you, but if you make the effort the cigars are great. In my mind, the average CC blows the average NC out of the water. Just my opinion.


----------



## s_vivo

smelvis said:


> The oldest cc I have is a couple years old, I do have some old nons. I was talking about my best experience with cc's which was about 15 years ago. Then almost no cc's in between then and a couple years ago. And I might add those were almost all fake bought out of the US in person.
> 
> I now am more aware thanks to puff and have some good stuff, but still have not even come close to that one I had 15 years ago.
> 
> Make any sense? :baby:


Makes perfect sense, you love smoking old fake cigars vs smoking new real ones, that's cool Dave whatever floats your boat, at least I now know what to bomb you with - glass top box cohiba's coming your way....I'll even try to get them in tubos for you. :heh::heh:


----------



## smelvis

s_vivo said:


> Makes perfect sense, you love smoking old fake cigars vs smoking new real ones, that's cool Dave whatever floats your boat, at least I now know what to bomb you with - glass top box cohiba's coming your way....I'll even try to get them in tubos for you. :heh::heh:


Very funny young feller.  I wouldn't mind one of the fake glass tops just for a novelty though. Just to show you I care I'll put together a couple thousand grams of good ol Thompson house blend and mark the contents in Big Black Magic Marker LOTS OF CIGARS!!! for your smoking pleasure~~:heh: :dance: :heh: and send em to ya 

 :smoke2:
J/K for anyone who doesn't know do not do this!!!!


----------



## s_vivo

smelvis said:


> Very funny young feller.  I wouldn't mind one of the fake glass tops just for a novelty though. Just to show you I care I'll put together a couple thousand grams of good ol Thompson house blend and mark the contents in Big Black Magic Marker LOTS OF CIGARS!!! for your smoking pleasure~~:heh: :dance: :heh: and send em to ya
> 
> :smoke2:
> J/K for anyone who doesn't know do not do this!!!!


Now that's just damn evil! Funny but evil. :mischief:


----------



## Mante

smelvis said:


> Very funny young feller.  I wouldn't mind one of the fake glass tops just for a novelty though. Just to show you I care I'll put together a couple thousand grams of good ol Thompson house blend and mark the contents in Big Black Magic Marker LOTS OF CIGARS!!! for your smoking pleasure~~:heh: :dance: :heh: and send em to ya
> 
> :smoke2:
> J/K for anyone who doesn't know do not do this!!!!


ROTFLMAO. You asked for that one Scott! Neaner, Neaner as Dave would say.:smoke2:


----------



## Brinson

I've heard that the reason people dislike CCs when they first try them is that CCs are not aged to be smoked out of the box whereas NCs are, and most casual cigar smokers don't age their cigars. Haven't tried a CC yet, and not sure where I'd go to get one, so I'll just have to take their word for it until I get the chance to travel. I read an article...was it Cigar.com's magazine? I'll look for it, where the writer went on and on about how CCs were overrated, and that was one point he raised.


----------



## salmonfly

Arnie said:


> What a fantastic thread.
> 
> I smoke both non-Cubans and Cubans, but lately I find myself reaching for the Cubans more often. The reason for that is I prefer the flavor and the smoothness of Cubans. Somehow they seem more refined to me, with subtle flavors coming and going. It's a little bit like the difference between brandy and Cognac. To use the aforementioned wine reference: 20 years ago those big, oaky California Chardonnays were all the rage when a nice French White Burgundy was far more flavorful albeit in a less direct way, and paired far better with food. But it was hard to convince people of that, they wanted the wine to punch them in the face.
> 
> With CC's you have to pay a little closer attention to the flavors coming at you, but if you make the effort the cigars are great. In my mind, the average CC blows the average NC out of the water. Just my opinion.


I am 1000% with him on the above!! :smoke2:


----------



## ShortyStogie

errrr....

*/disclaimer/*
I read the original post, was shocked at the contents, was even more shocked at the subsequent 'yes, you're right' responses, reread the first post and noticed it was posted in 2006, then skipped to the last page... so I haven't read the entire thread.... as is my habit, I will still say what I have to say! 
*/end disclaimer/*

WHAT?!?!?!

So I gather what the OP is saying that there are some erroneous reasons that people think they prefer NC's to CC's, and if given the chance, they would realize how wrong they were?!?!?

As someone who has very seriously smoked CC's for the last 15 odd years, and just tried some NC's over the past two, even I have to say that there is more to it than the simplistic view in the OP.

Have you tried the the San Cristobal Seleccion Del Sol Robusto (Thanks Dave!)? Tatjuaje Black Corona Gorda (Thanks Daniyal at botl.org)? The LFD Factory Press (Thanks, Warren)? The Padron 64 Anniversary Natural (Thanks to my wife for not killing me when I got those myself!)?

Aside from the Padron, I don't think any of these is considered to be a top of the line, put-me-in-the-poor-house sorta smoke. And I personally feel that they can hold their own to some of my favorite cubans! (shameless plug: I'm still looking for the Tat Black CG - the original release - so if anyone can get their hands on some, lemme know... pleeeease!)

My point is not to say that NC's are as good or better... perhaps not. But by asking the question that the OP did at the beginning of the thread, he is automatically shunning the NC's to being not as good. One more reason comes to mind about why some people would think that NC's are as good... Because some of them are pretty eff-in' good cigars.

So that's my $0.02 about this topic.

However, the OP brings up a very good point in my mind. What HAS certainly happened since the embargo is that certain NC's have gained a ton of brand loyalty. I think that over the past 50 odd years, the flavor demands of the US have changed and been catered to by the NC's to such a prolific extent, that I wouldn't be surprised if and when the embargo is lifted, the cubans don't legally sell as many smokes as we are thinking.

I have a feeling that when the the average joe, who has been smoking NC's all his life... when he finally tries a Partagas D4 off the shelf, he might think, "ummmm... so what was that hype all about?!?" Not because the D4 isn't "better" than what he's used to... but it just doesn't fit the profile of what an amazing, complex, flavorful smoke should be.

I could be wrong here, but it's just a thought.

-Fauzi


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## pointbreak

All and all a very good read thanks for digging this up Scott!!! As for MHO(which doesnt mean much) CC all the way as i love the cuban twang allthough i havent found my NC of choice yet,but ill keep tring as i feel its out there somewhere, and i havent tried any of the formentioned by shortystogie!!!!Cheers


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## jolyrogger

Great thread to read. Thanks for sharing..


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## TonyBrooklyn

For what it is worth i have seen many switch to Cubans and never go back to Non Cubans, present company included. I have never seen it the other way around.:smoke2::boom::dance:


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## budkole

Cigary said:


> Taste is subjective at best and what one person loves another one hates. The only thing that matters is what each of us likes and then enjoy it. There's a bumper sticker somewhere with this sentiment.


True to the fullest! I prefer a premium nc to a cc. There are quite a few nc's that share that "twang" that some reference. There are also a boatload of nc's that claim to be premium but taste very crappy at best. Furthermore, so many nc's put more emphasis on the band and packaging art rather the cigar itself.


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## Scott W.

TonyBrooklyn said:


> For what it is worth i have seen many switch to Cubans and never go back to Non Cubans, present company included. I have never seen it the other way around.:smoke2::boom::dance:


Me too on this and I have a collection of what I believe to be some pretty impressive NC's. Cubans just tickle my pickle.


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## Dan-Hur

I'm kind of in Fauzi's camp. My disclaimer would be that I've never smoked a Cuban cigar, but I still think that the original post comes off as a bit elitist. It basically says "if you don't like Cuban cigars, it's because you don't get it" by saying that no serious smoker could prefer NCs to CCs. It's like one of those really artsy movies that make you scratch your head while some dude in a turtleneck shakes his head at your profound ignorance. Don't get me wrong, I'm not descrying Cuban cigars or trying to impugn the OP, but, as others have said, taste is subjective. If I were to say that I preferred a Puros Indios Viejo to a Padron '64, I'd see disagreements but I think I'd also see more people saying "smoke what you like" instead of "come back when you know better." It's also a serious generalization to say all Cubans are better than all Non-Cubans, period. Cubans have their crap just as much as any Non-Cuban manufacturer.


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## orca99usa

There are a lot of non-Cubans that I like. That said, few things could compare to the authentic Cohiba I got from a Habano dealer in the Yucatan. I could tell from the first puff that it was the real deal. I don't smoke a lot of Cubans (for one thing, they tend to be pretty expensive), but they are excellent cigars.


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## Scott W.

orca99usa said:


> There are a lot of non-Cubans that I like. That said, few things could compare to the authentic Cohiba I got from a Habano dealer in the Yucatan. I could tell from the first puff that it was the real deal. I don't smoke a lot of Cubans (*for one thing, they tend to be pretty expensive*), but they are excellent cigars.


In that case:

A: your vendor is ripping you off.
B: You are getting fakes at a usurous rate.

I can get an outstanding CC for the same price as a mediocre NC any day of the week.


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## tpharkman

I really enjoy this debate. A couple of questions I have:

Have you ever heard of a Cuban cigar being described as Nicoesque or Dominicoesque or Honduraesgue? I never haveand I think we can all agree that alot of NC cigars are being blended to try and represent what the old guard used to roll and smoke in Cuba. 

If these blenders are making the best cigars in the world then why don't those cigars stand on their own as being just that, the best cigars in the world? Why are they using cuban seed and being described as Cubanesque? At one time the RyJ Vintage line and the Montecristo Belicosos Larga might have been the closest thing I have ever had that could be described as Cubanesque but those lines have been destroyed.

I judge what I enjoy or consider to be better by asking myself which experience blew me away as compared to which experience was me just smoking a cigar because it is a hobby I enjoy. I can say that no NC has ever provided me with as much pleasure as the RyJ Churchills and HdM Double Coronas that I smoked in 97-98. I can also say that no NC has come close to the experiences I had with Monte 4s and Monte 2s in 99. The three smokes that have come the closest (as well as the two previously mentioned above) was the only Opus X I've had and the 20 Anniversario Danno from Nestor Miranda as well as one Tatajue Brown label I once enjoyed but haven't had one come close sense. 

All that being said, I don't doubt that many brothers prefer the flavor profile and hard hitting characteristics of many of today's NCs. It is the same reason why some shotgunners love semi-autos and others swear by the double gun. I have seen alot of sophisticates sporting the semi-auto scatter gun and I have seen the reddest of the ******* carrying side by sides. Taste is taste and if NCs fit you better then to you they are the best cigars in the world. For those who prefer CCs the message is the same.

The fact that NCs being made all over the world are trying to imitate one type of cigar, the cuban cigar, tells me everything I need to know.


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## Mante

scottw said:


> *I can get an outstanding CC for the same price as a mediocre NC any day of the week. *


 Totally agree with that Scott. A lot of people seem to think that CC's are expensive but by & large that is not the case.


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## asmartbull

I couldn't care less, what anyone else smokes.

I don't care what anyone else thinks of what I smoke.

All I know is that my CC stock increases and "most" of my NC stock
is going by the wayside.


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## Mante

asmartbull said:


> I couldn't care less, what anyone else smokes.
> 
> I don't care what anyone else thinks of what I smoke.
> 
> .


:rockon: :smoke2: :yo: :banghead: :hand: :hail: :clap2:

*NICELY SAID!*


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## KetherInMalkuth

IMHO, cubans are "different" not better. Yes they are generally cheaper, but that's considering most of us are buying them from online venders who aren't paying tax on them, then we buy them without paying tax on them. 

There are quite a few 2 dollar NC that I thouroughly enjoy, the only CC I could say that acout would be the JLP Cremas, and those are short filler with construction that isn't near many $2 NCs.

If you like the "twang", great, ISOMs are your bag. If you prefer heavy smokes, double ligeros, DPG blends, etc... then it's entirely likely that you may not even enjoy the vast majority of CCs.

Personally I like a wide range of cigars, and while I'm slowly building up my ISOM collection, I most certainly won't stop buying T52s, LFDs, Padrons, Ashton VSGs, or Anejos. And cheaper sticks like Arganese ML3, Diesels, and Tobaccos Baez SF will always be part of my stock.

All in all, to answer the base of the question, "Why do some people think non-Couban cigars are better than Cuban cigars?"
Well, frankly because some of them are. I'll reach for a PAM 64 before any CC in a heartbeat. I'm not sure about comparing them to "aged" cubans, but you have to figure, if Cuba was aging thier cigars for years after rolling them before putting it on the market, you can be damn sure there would be much more parity in the premium market with some of the NCs that use that as standard practice.

NCs have their various premiums just like CCs have they Troya and Guantanamera.


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## Mante

KetherInMalkuth said:


> IMHO, cubans are "different" not better. Yes they are generally cheaper, but that's considering most of us are buying them from online venders who aren't paying tax on them, then we buy them without paying tax on them.
> 
> There are quite a few 2 dollar NC that I thouroughly enjoy, the only CC I could say that acout would be the JLP Cremas, and those are short filler with construction that isn't near many $2 NCs.
> 
> If you like the "twang", great, ISOMs are your bag. If you prefer heavy smokes, double ligeros, DPG blends, etc... then it's entirely likely that you may not even enjoy the vast majority of CCs.
> 
> Personally I like a wide range of cigars, and while I'm slowly building up my ISOM collection, I most certainly won't stop buying T52s, LFDs, Padrons, Ashton VSGs, or Anejos. And cheaper sticks like Arganese ML3, Diesels, and Tobaccos Baez SF will always be part of my stock.
> 
> All in all, to answer the base of the question, "Why do some people think non-Couban cigars are better than Cuban cigars?"
> Well, frankly because some of them are. I'll reach for a PAM 64 before any CC in a heartbeat. I'm not sure about comparing them to "aged" cubans, but you have to figure, if Cuba was aging thier cigars for years after rolling them before putting it on the market, you can be damn sure there would be much more parity in the premium market with some of the NCs that use that as standard practice.
> 
> NCs have their various premiums just like CCs have they Troya and Guantanamera.


 OK Brad, no more bombs for you, from me. ROTFLMAO. Just Kidding, I'll make sure to send you NC's.


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## KetherInMalkuth

Tashaz said:


> OK Brad, no more bombs for you, from me. ROTFLMAO. Just Kidding, I'll make sure to send you NC's.


That's what ya did last time, lol. By the way, thank you much and I'm enjoying that CAO sampler greatly, the MX2 and Brazilia are tasty.

Don't get my tone wrong, I do enjoy CCs... RASCC and PSD4 specifically are awesome. My stock of ISOMs is by no means huge, I've got a box of HdM Epi#2, JLP Cremas, Cohiba Siglo II, RASCC, and Monte #4s, and I've tried a bunch of others that were quite enjoyable that brother Smelvis sent my way. I just get irritated with the idea that if it's not CC then it's is automatically inferior.


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## Mante

KetherInMalkuth said:


> That's what ya did last time, lol. By the way, thank you much and I'm enjoying that CAO sampler greatly, the MX2 and Brazilia are tasty.
> 
> Don't get my tone wrong, I do enjoy CCs... RASCC and PSD4 specifically are awesome. My stock of ISOMs is by no means huge, I've got a box of HdM Epi#2, JLP Cremas, Cohiba Siglo II, RASCC, and Monte #4s, and I've tried a bunch of others that were quite enjoyable that brother Smelvis sent my way. I just get irritated with the idea that if it's not CC then it's is automatically inferior.


Mate, I totally agree. I have not smoked that many NC's yet but I will say I still prefer CC's. That may change or it may not. This thread in itself was started with the aim of being inflammatory methinks and it has served exactly that purpose. CC's are superior to those that prefer them and NC's are superior to those that prefer that profile. Nuff said.


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## 96Brigadier

pointbreak said:


> All and all a very good read thanks for digging this up Scott!!! As for MHO(which doesnt mean much) CC all the way as i love the cuban twang allthough i havent found my NC of choice yet,but ill keep tring as i feel its out there somewhere, and i havent tried any of the formentioned by shortystogie!!!!Cheers


My humidor is 500 sticks Cuban, 8 sticks Non-Cuban. However, it isn't because I "know" one is better than the other, but rather where I live it's far easier to get Cuban cigars than it is non-Cuban so that's where all of my experience is. The few non-Cubans I've smoked I didn't like, so to me that means I just haven't found my NC of choice like Pointbreak said. Like most people I do what's easiest, which means I buy Cubans  Since I like them so much I'm certainly not disappointed in that fact.


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## KetherInMalkuth

By the by, I sure hope my wife doesn't read this, she already :target:*really:target:* doesn't like me ordering ISOMs and I certainly don't need to give her any ammunition in the argument.


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## Mante

KetherInMalkuth said:


> By the by, I sure hope my wife doesn't read this, she already :target:*really:target:* doesn't like me ordering ISOMs and I certainly don't need to give her any ammunition in the argument.


Oh I think there might be a way for you to "Acquire" some CC's without buying them. LOL. :mischief:


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## KetherInMalkuth

Tashaz said:


> Oh I think there might be a way for you to "Acquire" some CC's without buying them. LOL. :mischief:


With the money she spends on handbags, shoes, and clothes, she doesn't have much ground to defend. So I always end up getting my way... I just hear about it later, then again a little later, then pretty much every time I light one up. :dunno:

She thinks I'm gonna end up in prison. [Hope they allow me to smoke cigars there... or at least a pipe.]


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## Mante

KetherInMalkuth said:


> With the money she spends on handbags, shoes, and clothes, she doesn't have much ground to defend. So I always end up getting my way... I just hear about it later, then again a little later, then pretty much every time I light one up. :dunno:
> 
> She thinks I'm gonna end up in prison. [Hope they allow me to smoke cigars there... or at least a pipe.]


That sucks mate. LOL. Tash dont give me no shit about my cigars but then again she smokes some of them too.


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## KetherInMalkuth

Tashaz said:


> That sucks mate. LOL. Tash dont give me no shit about my cigars but then again she smokes some of them too.


It's ok, it's all in good fun. I give her shit about all of her shoes and handbags too.


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## Mante

KetherInMalkuth said:


> It's ok, it's all in good fun. I give her shit about all of her shoes and handbags too.


Smoke one of her handbags I say. LMAO. *Grin*:dunno:


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## TonyBrooklyn

Wow what a great post i read it from the first page. The author really touched on all bases.:hat:


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## Frinkiac7

In my own experience, the people telling you that "NCs are better than CCs these days, CCs are all hype" are always selling something...B&M owner, NC cigar magnate, etc.


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## jessejava187

I love both, yes for me some NC i like better then CCs, but the thing is a $5 CC, is great, but sure a $26 Padron 80th is better, so the thing im saying is the best smokes ive had were NC but at a very high cost, CC are great at any price. to lean either way on the debate and no i wont smoke NCs, or I dont smoke cubans, the only pereson you hurt is yourslf, cuz their is some very good NC stuff out there, and awsomwe CC stuff.


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