# Speed Aging Experiment Padron 3000 Maduro



## No1der (Apr 2, 2007)

So I bought a box of Padron 3000 Maduros a couple of days ago and noticed that they didn't taste as good as they usually do.

Further inspection revealed that date they were released at was July 31...

They are quite young. So I decided to try a little experiment.

Step 1. Took the Padron out of the Cello,
2. Vaccume seal that padron in one of those vaccuseal bags.
3. Put bag containing the padron into a pot of water and bring it up to a boil.
(there's no better way to get the essential oils of, anything, going like heat)
4. Let it boil for 3 minutes.
5. Transfer to a tupperware container and pour the now hot water over the baggie in the tupper, close the top and let sit for a few minutes.
6. Take the bag out of container, break the seal of the vacubag and pull cigar out.
7. Let cigar rest for a few hours, it's doing that right now, and than smoke it this evening and see what happens...

I'll let you guys know how this turns out if anyone is interested. So far the cigar looks a little "pressed" but nothing major otherwise.

Edit: What I am attempting to accomplish by this is to get the essential oils of the cigar to co-mingle with eath other through heat and pressure. They do this naturally but I thought that I could maybe speed up the proccess. I may have not given it enough time to "boil" long enough.

I didn't want to "cook" the cigar, just get the oils to co-mingle at a much quicker rate.

Edit 2: If you want to try this, take a dog rocket you have laying around and give it a go and see if it changes the tase for the better.


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## hova45 (Jun 17, 2007)

No1der said:


> So I bought a box of Padron 3000 Maduros a couple of days ago and noticed that they didn't taste as good as they usually do.
> 
> Further inspection revealed that date they were released at was July 31...
> 
> ...


Now we have a mad scientist on the loose:r:ss:tu let me know how that turns out for you.


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## Mr.Maduro (Aug 2, 2006)

You're brave! I'd try that with a fiver before I tried a whole box!


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## wharfrathoss (Dec 27, 2006)

did you invent crack cocaine in the 70's?! (j/k)-hope it turns out well


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## FlyerFanX (Feb 20, 2007)

This could go on an episode of Mythbusters. 

Good luck and I look forward to the results.



No1der said:


> So I bought a box of Padron 3000 Maduros a couple of days ago and noticed that they didn't taste as good as they usually do.
> 
> Further inspection revealed that date they were released at was July 31...
> 
> ...


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## brownbuffalo (Apr 11, 2007)

:r

I thought pot heads were the most creative folks out there.


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## thebiglebowski (Dec 19, 2005)

No1der said:


> So I bought a box of Padron 3000 Maduros a couple of days ago and noticed that they didn't taste as good as they usually do.
> 
> Further inspection revealed that date they were released at was July 31...
> 
> ...


you realize you're quite mad...

seriously, what an interesting proposition. looking forward to reading the results.


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## No1der (Apr 2, 2007)

hova45 said:


> Now we have a mad scientist on the loose:r:ss:tu let me know how that turns out for you.


Yeah, I've always had a bit of the "Mad Scientist" in my personality. 



Mr.Maduro said:


> You're brave! I'd try that with a fiver before I tried a whole box!


Guess I should have been clearer, I only did this with an individual cigar from the box of 3000's



wharfrathoss said:


> did you invent crack cocaine in the 70's?! (j/k)-hope it turns out well


:r
I don't know, I might have, but who remembers these things 



FlyerFanX said:


> This could go on an episode of Mythbusters.
> 
> Good luck and I look forward to the results.


Thanks,

I'll post result later on tonight when I smoke it.



thebiglebowski said:


> you realize you're quite mad...
> 
> seriously, what an interesting proposition. looking forward to reading the results.


Mad? Mad you say? Mad? 
Well, yeah, I'm quite Mad. Always trying to build a better mousetrap.


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## rack04 (Jun 24, 2007)

:dr Hot dogs.


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## No1der (Apr 2, 2007)

brownbuffalo said:


> :r
> 
> I thought pot heads were the most creative folks out there.


Nah, building a bong out of an apple is nothing compared to what several Gorillas have cooking (punn intended) around here.:w



rack04 said:


> :dr Hot dogs.


Now there's an idea. Just throw in the stogies with the Hot Dogs and you've got dinner and a great (hopefully great) smoke afterwards. :ss


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## Darrell (Aug 12, 2007)

You're one smart BOTL. Hats off to you, I can't wait to hear the result. :tu


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## No1der (Apr 2, 2007)

Darrell said:


> You're one smart BOTL. Hats off to you, I can't wait to hear the result. :tu


Thanks... I hope this proves to be a smart idea in the end... :ss
Heck, I can't wait to taste the results.


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## No1der (Apr 2, 2007)

Just and update. I just too a look at the cigar in question and the wrapper on the padron now has a darker, slightly glossy and oily shean (sp) on it.


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## hova45 (Jun 17, 2007)

well no1der lets go patent this idea:tu


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## Alpedhuez55 (Dec 16, 2005)

Actually, I think you need to add Celery Onion and Carrots to make a Cigar Stock.


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## JCK (Nov 9, 2006)

does it smell of ammonia? I think you're trying speed up further fermentation. Ammonia is a by-product. If so, you might want to let it rest for a few days before you smoke it.


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## Scimmia (Sep 22, 2006)

Aren't some of the "fake maduros" boiled, or is that only steamed? Should be interesting so see how it turns out.


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## No1der (Apr 2, 2007)

hova45 said:


> well no1der lets go patent this idea:tu


We'll make a Million, I say we take it a run with it. The famous Club Stogie Boiled Cigar sold only in JR Cigars. :r



Alpedhuez55 said:


> Actually, I think you need to add Celery Onion and Carrots to make a Cigar Stock.


That could be a second line of flavored cigars. Personally I'm not crazy about flavored stogies but other seem to like em. A carrot and Celery flavored cigar? We'll sell a million of 'em...



khubli said:


> does it smell of ammonia? I think you're trying speed up further fermentation. Ammonia is a by-product. If so, you might want to let it rest for a few days before you smoke it.


No, no amonia smell. Bascially what I wanted to do was to get all the different oils in the cigar to mingle a bit


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## jaycarla (Jun 10, 2007)

hova45 said:


> well no1der lets go patent this idea:tu


Too late, I just filled out the Patent paperwork!

I shall rule the world!!! Muah-ha-ha-ha!!!!!!


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## JCK (Nov 9, 2006)

I'll definately be watching this one to see how it turns out.

Reminds me of this experiment.

http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showthread.php?t=9802


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## Mystophales (Aug 20, 2007)

This is one of those ideas that can make you millions....one of those "why didn't I think of that?" kind of things.

I already have the product name...The Anti-Arturo...We will do everything in our power to speed up the hands of time...


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## dayplanner (Dec 11, 1997)

Wow I hope this works...it would be nice to speed up the hands of time...at least for the cigars.


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## No1der (Apr 2, 2007)

Update:

I was a bit worried that the cigar might be plugged due to the amount of pressure the vaccume bag applied to it but I just tested the draw. The draw was a little tight but nothing to bad so it looks like she should smoke fine later today.

I think next time I may try this experiment with a bit less suction pressure applied to the stogie.


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## Sisyphus (Oct 9, 2005)

o

Just try not to blow anything up....

-Ken


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## BengalMan (Aug 13, 2007)

Smoke it already, were all waiting!!


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## Cheeto (May 10, 2007)

BengalMan said:


> Smoke it already, were all waiting!!


:tpd:.


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## Silky01 (Jul 16, 2007)

No1der said:


> Update:
> 
> I was a bit worried that the cigar might be plugged due to the amount of pressure the vaccume bag applied to it but I just tested the draw. The draw was a little tight but nothing to bad so it looks like she should smoke fine later today.
> 
> I think next time I may try this experiment with a bit less suction pressure applied to the stogie.


Well, to me and seems most the padrons already have a loose draw--so this might be a good thing for em?


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## ssutton219 (Apr 17, 2007)

SO??????



What do we know Mad Mad Scientist?????







Shawn


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## No1der (Apr 2, 2007)

UPDATE:

Ok, she's been toasted and lit and as I type this I'll be smoking it.. So far, I think this may have been a success, bolder flavors are certainly noteworthy.

I think that less pressure and longer boiling should be tried. The pressure caused the cigar to wrinkle a bit but the burn is pretty darn good and the flavor is certainly there.

Edit: I'm now getting to the somewhat sweeter flavors. I'm a bit surprised by this as I seldom have padrons that have this quality but it is very pleasant with good tobacco flavors.

So far so good.

Edit 2:
The flavors are quite pleasant. Certainly the heart of Padron flavor is there but it's far more complex with creamy and sweet undertones.

The ash on it is the best I've seen on a padron. Tight with mostly white color and just a little pepper color mixed in.


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## thunderbucks (Mar 21, 2006)

No1der said:


> UPDATE:
> 
> Ok, she's been toasted and lit and as I type this I'll be smoking it.. So far, I think this may have been a success, bolder flavors are certainly noteworthy.
> 
> ...


Jeeze! This is _NUCKING FUTS!_


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## BengalMan (Aug 13, 2007)

Wow, I'm highly impressed. Looks like I may have to pick up one of these vacume sealers and start boiling some of my sticks before smoking them. I'm definitly marking this thread as a favorite of mine. I look forward to seeing the result.


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## No1der (Apr 2, 2007)

thunderbucks said:


> Jeeze! This is _NUCKING FUTS!_


To tell the truth, I'm rather surprised myself. Pleasantly surprised.

I'll have to refine this procedure and tweak it a bit.

BTW, the wrapper is so oily that I almost feel like wiping my hands with a napkin. I'm overstating this a bit but you get the idea. The wrapper is very shiny and slick in texture. :ss


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## Bob (Jun 29, 2006)

No1der said:


> To tell the truth, I'm rather surprised myself. Pleasantly surprised.
> 
> I'll have to refine this procedure and tweak it a bit.
> 
> BTW, the wrapper is so oily that I almost feel like wiping my hands with a napkin. I'm overstating this a bit but you get the idea. The wrapper is very shiny and slick in texture. :ss


Don't be "slip sliding away!":r


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## No1der (Apr 2, 2007)

Update:

The draw is much tighter but not to much so to be unpleasant. Another thing worth noting is that I've never had a 2 inch ash on a Padron 3000...

The flavors continue to change as I keep smoking into it further and further, all is pleasant and with very strong coffee flavors becoming prominant now yet the sweetness is still there.

The aftertase is lightly bitter in a good and pleasant way.

Ash is at 2.5 inches and holding strong.


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## hova45 (Jun 17, 2007)

So far so good I guess it did work you are a great mad scientist.


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## No1der (Apr 2, 2007)

Update:

The ash is going on three inches now.

The stronger flavors noted earlier have now mellowed into a very pleasant latte type flavor with a hint of cinamon.

Really quite good with a huge range of flavors.

I'll have to refine this technique a bit though because the wrinkling is a bit on the "overdone" side of the spectrum. Still going strong and tasty though.


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## Sisyphus (Oct 9, 2005)

da da dum dum da da dum dum da da dum dum....


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## No1der (Apr 2, 2007)

hova45 said:


> So far so good I guess it did work you are a great mad scientist.


Thank you sir, I'm as surprised as anyone.

I got this idea last night when I was trying to fall asleep and couldn't (as usual)

It was to late at night to be doing it then so I'm glad I remembered to do it during the day with what looks like good success. :ss


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## zipper (Jun 19, 2007)

wow...just wow


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## No1der (Apr 2, 2007)

Update:

The ash was lost at a little over 3 inches and the flavor is becoming milder yet retaining all the flavors mentioned above with very good harmony.

I'm happy with this experiment. As it was the first one of this nature it will require some refinement but for a first try, it couldn't have gone better.


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## garilla (Sep 12, 2006)

If this post isn't sticky yet, someone make it quick!

I'm just now sitting down reading, and I still can't believe the results. That is pretty cool. 

Would be even more interesting to take a fiver of them and perform the "boil 'em in oil!!!" torture test and then send a couple of them out side by side with some from the same box that have rested in the humi for 6 months. A blind taste test anyone? Who can tell the tortured cigar to the well-rested one?

I think you can still do this. Has anyone ever gone to the grocery store and had steaks marinated in a pressure cooker? I'm starting to crack myself up now with visions of your local B&M offering to boil/pressure-cook your "fresh" cigars when you check out... ROFL

- Garilla


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## No1der (Apr 2, 2007)

I'm still smoking and things are pretty much as I just described. I wanted to mention one thing.

The pressure that the vaccume sealing applied to the cigar as well as the heat caused it to drop to a lower RG. Yes, I dinged the RG on the Padron.

It has the RG of almost a Padron 2000, give or take.


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## No1der (Apr 2, 2007)

garilla said:


> If this post isn't sticky yet, someone make it quick!
> 
> I'm just now sitting down reading, and I still can't believe the results. That is pretty cool.
> 
> ...


Those are some pretty good ideas you got there, I like it.

BTW, up to a long ash again.

Now, I don't know if this really is a good representation of a trully aged Padron but the main point of this experiment was to see if I could get the oils to intermingle and on that count the mission is very much accomplished.

Oh yeah, the burn is still perfect.


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## No1der (Apr 2, 2007)

Update:

I know that there has been quite a bit of essential oil activity because I can feel the oils on my fingers now.

I know for sure because I use a trackball mouse and the ball on the mouse is becoming somewhat slick to the touch.

I bet that this could be a good way to attempt to speed up bloom.

The idea: Boil cigars in a refined version of this method and then let the cigar(s) rest for a couple of months. Crystalization of the oils is likely to occur sooner with this method. 

Just my hypothesys here.

Edit:
The flavor is very good with a thick luxurious quality to it. Rich, with all flavors mentioned in tact with good harmony and a luxury of the smoke I can't really describe.


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## Kimyounil (Apr 9, 2007)

You are the man, make sure you keep us posted as you refine this INSANE technique.


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## Scimmia (Sep 22, 2006)

as I mentioned earlier, some companies steam their wrappers to make their maduros, so the sweet flavors don't suprise me. Other than that, very interesting results.


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## stinkie (Jun 11, 2007)

maybe someone can turn this into a money making venture. by turning dog rockets into something worth smoking and bring out a differant taste. sounds like a winner to me.


stinkie:ss


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## john51277 (Feb 27, 2007)

I will be experimenting with this very soon!!!! I have to find some young cigars now!!!! Or maybe just a few 18 yr old blondes!!


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## No1der (Apr 2, 2007)

Kimyounil said:


> You are the man, make sure you keep us posted as you refine this INSANE technique.


I certainly will do that. I don't think that "Speed Aging" is what happened here, rather it was an exelerated mingling of essential oils in a very young cigar. Certainly changed the character of the Padron greatly...



Scimmia said:


> as I mentioned earlier, some companies steam their wrappers to make their maduros, so the sweet flavors don't suprise me. Other than that, very interesting results.


I've heard of the steaming technique as well but I was still surprised by the resulting sweetness because the cigar at no point came in contact with any extra water vapor. It was in it's own tiny mico-enviornment with pressure and heat applied to it.



stinkie said:


> maybe someone can turn this into a money making venture. by turning dog rockets into worth smoking and bring out a differant taste. sounds like a winner to me.
> 
> stinkie:ss


I was thinking the same thing about using dog rockets but I don't really have any at the moment and I am very familiar with the taste and character of the Padron x000 series.

I'm now done smoking and I will need to go wash my hands because without a doubt I've got a lot of oils from the stogie on my fingers. Almost like after eating french fries, not to the same extent but that's what it reminds me of.

I think that next time I do this I'll let the cigar relax from it's hot bath at a much higher temperature. As it was, I just stuck it in my humi to relax.

I think that if I let the cigar relax and cool gradually it will allow it to "un-wrinkle" itself. After this, I think that allowing the cigar to age properly for a few weeks will possibly let it bloom.

I am not overstating this when I say that the wrapper was noticeably oily as compared to any other Padron. Those of you who smoke Padrons know that they are not known for their oily wrapper.

All in all a very interesting experiment with future implications upon tweaking the method a bit.

So there you have it folks, the experiment and my personal thoughts on the results. All in all, a very very good smoke.

I'd go as far as to say that the cigar ceased to be a Padron because of all the other characteristics that emerged.

No, this was no aging, this was something completely different but pleasantly surprising. The key was that the oils intermingled and created a unique smoking experience.


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## No1der (Apr 2, 2007)

Oh yeah, I'm pretty certain I killed any beatle eggs that may or may not have been in that cigar. Consider those puppies hard-boiled.


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## smokin5 (Mar 28, 2007)

Overall, I'd say it was an excellent first attempt!
Keep us posted on future runs. Very impressive.
RG for you!!:tu


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## JPH (Jun 30, 2006)

Weird...

Reminds me of the guy who put the cigar in the micowave...

You had beter results than he did...or at least you interpreted the results as better.

I wouldn't do it but I sure love when other people try experiements...


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## BigVito (Jan 1, 2000)

No1der said:


> UPDATE:
> 
> Ok, she's been toasted and lit and as I type this I'll be smoking it.. So far, I think this may have been a success, bolder flavors are certainly noteworthy.
> 
> ...


are you going to start boiling and selling fivers?


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## Kngof9ex (May 24, 2007)

You get my vote im gonna have to go buy one of those vacuum sealers now. im interested to see how this works on other types of cigars...


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## No1der (Apr 2, 2007)

Thanks for all the positive votes of confidence guys. I really appreciate all the great comments.

What I would suggest, for anyone interested, is to do your own experiments because the more people tinker with such ideas the more refined the proccess will become.

I'm quite happy with my first attempt and I'll be doing it again.

I figure that if enough Gorillas tinker around and refine this idea sooner or later we'll be trading "dog-rockets" and/or possibly have a "Boiled Cigar Box Pass" :ss

Now that would be something wouldn't it?



smokin5 said:


> Overall, I'd say it was an excellent first attempt!
> Keep us posted on future runs. Very impressive.
> RG for you!!:tu


Thank you sir, that's very kind of you. :tu


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## Razorhog (Jun 1, 2007)

I think this is worth trying with other sticks too, awesome experiment!


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## Giovanni (Jun 19, 2007)

Looks like you have come up with a new saying: "Boil 'em if you got 'em!"


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## Pyro (Nov 10, 2006)

First of all, an interesting result of a strange experiment. I like strange experiments, a lot! 

I've read through all posts very quickly and might have missed som details but what was the purpose of the vacuum bag? Why not only putting the cigars in an ordinary ziploc bag and suck out excess of air with a straw or similar? Was it because of worries about getting a balloon due to the expansion of trapped air while heating?

Did you save any cigars from the same box to be able to compare treated and untreated cigars during a paralell smoking session?



No1der said:


> ...I bet that this could be a good way to attempt to speed up bloom...


 But, is bloom actually something to strive for? I have a feeling that the oils contribute better to taste and aroma before they start to crystallize on the wrapper surface! It would be interesting to see how your cooked cigars handle long time aging, compared to untreated cigars!


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## No1der (Apr 2, 2007)

Razorhog said:


> I think this is worth trying with other sticks too, awesome experiment!


I would suggest that other Gorillas in the Jungle do their own experiment and let's refine this sucker...



Giovanni said:


> Looks like you have come up with a new saying: "Boil 'em if you got 'em!"


:r I like it. It just sort of rolls of the tongue.



Pyro said:


> First of all, an interesting result of a strange experiment. I like strange experiments, a lot!
> 
> I've read through all posts very quickly and might have missed som details but what was the purpose of the vacuum bag? Why not only putting the cigars in an ordinary ziploc bag and suck out excess of air with a straw or similar? Was it because of worries about getting a balloon due to the expansion of trapped air while heating?
> 
> ...


Well, to be honest I thought about using a ziplock bag but to point of concern. First, as you pointed out, I didn't want it to balloon up. However, I also wanted some pressure to be applied to the entire cigar to keep the wrapper from possibly splitting as the cigar would expand, secondly I wanted there to be pressure on the cigar so that when the heat activated the oils, they would be forced to intermingle more rapidly.

I can't say much about bloom because I've never smoked a cigar that had bloom. Having said that, I suppose that since the wrapper of that cigar was as oily as it was that crystalization at that point wouldn't be too far behind. Maybe just a couple of months as the raw material was already there.

Yes, I have plenty of cigars from that box as the whole reason I started this experiment was because I have some very young Padrons that I just recently purchased.

Also, I had a non-boiled Padron from that same box later on last night and so I was certain that the flavors were miles apart. Both were good but the differences were astonishing...

Thanks guys.


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## BigFrankMD (Aug 31, 2007)

This is sick S***, thanks for this new idea no1der. Now, why do I see myself going out and buying a pressure cooker and vacuum bag sealing equipment. hahahaha


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## n3uka (Nov 13, 2006)

Maybe you should get together with Seangar and do an full experiment with this idea.


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## SmokinApe (Jun 20, 2007)

I am not an expert here but to me, this seems like a terrible idea. 

I would think that by forcing to oils to "intermingle" you have pushed them to the outside of the cigar, this can be seen by getting oils on your fingers. This would lead me to believe that the vacu-bag also had oil traces insideof it. These two thing would result in a loss of essential oils ISO the intermingling of them.

Additionally I would be concerned about any moisture in the cigar turning into water vapor and then to condensation on the wrapper resulting in a soggy oily wrapper. Cigars IMO are suppsed to have a uniform moisture content to provide a cool and consistient burn with little harshness. I would also be concerend that the steam / vapor could cause some sort of cellular integrity issues within the leaf itself (mostly the wrapper) causing tears that may effect the draw.


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## FriendlyFire (Jun 11, 2007)

And your giving a way the big secret just like this, look at that.


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## Bob (Jun 29, 2006)

Dang I don't have a Vac bag machine!! Next thing ya know they will be sealing our cigars in v-bags and sending instructions from the major cigar makers on how to treat our cigars. Drop the essential oils in the bag and create a new smoke!!:r


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## No1der (Apr 2, 2007)

BigFrankMD said:


> This is sick S***, thanks for this new idea no1der. Now, why do I see myself going out and buying a pressure cooker and vacuum bag sealing equipment. hahahaha


I will be repeating the experiment in the near future with some tweaking of this idea.



n3uka said:


> Maybe you should get together with Seangar and do an full experiment with this idea.


In reality I'm just puttering around with ideas, yesterdays experiment went well but it does need refinement.



SmokinApe said:


> I am not an expert here but to me, this seems like a terrible idea.
> 
> I would think that by forcing to oils to "intermingle" you have pushed them to the outside of the cigar, this can be seen by getting oils on your fingers. This would lead me to believe that the vacu-bag also had oil traces insideof it. These two thing would result in a loss of essential oils ISO the intermingling of them.
> 
> Additionally I would be concerned about any moisture in the cigar turning into water vapor and then to condensation on the wrapper resulting in a soggy oily wrapper. Cigars IMO are suppsed to have a uniform moisture content to provide a cool and consistient burn with little harshness. I would also be concerend that the steam / vapor could cause some sort of cellular integrity issues within the leaf itself (mostly the wrapper) causing tears that may effect the draw.


You make some very good points. There was no condensation, the oil was somewhat oily, as I stated in the results. The bag didn't have any oils on it so I assume that the migration of the oils to the wrapper happened while the cigar was resting. One thing is certain, the wrapper was not even a bit soggy.

I found no problems with the uniformity of the moisture of the cigar, in fact I got the best burn and ash I've ever had from a Padron.

Like I said already, I need to refine this experiment and perhaps use less pressure as the wrinkling on the cigar was noticeable.

You're right, the draw was a tighter but not overly so and I think that I can fix this by using less vaccum pressure in the next experiment.



FriendlyFire said:


> And your giving a way the big secret just like this, look at that.


Yeah well, I don't run a cigar business and I don't see myself running one any time soon so if I can contribute a new though slightly bizzare idea to the Jungle then that's all the payment I need.



Bob said:


> Dang I don't have a Vac bag machine!! Next thing ya know they will be sealing our cigars in v-bags and sending instructions from the major cigar makers on how to treat our cigars. Drop the essential oils in the bag and create a new smoke!!:r


:r I can just see it now. Cigars coming in packages with cooking instructions and recipe's...


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## Troop_lee (Aug 10, 2007)

That is really interesting, and cool. Way to go!!


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## Sisyphus (Oct 9, 2005)

SmokinApe said:


> I am not an expert here but to me, this seems like a terrible idea.
> 
> I would think that by forcing to oils to "intermingle" you have pushed them to the outside of the cigar, this can be seen by getting oils on your fingers. This would lead me to believe that the vacu-bag also had oil traces insideof it. These two thing would result in a loss of essential oils ISO the intermingling of them.
> 
> Additionally I would be concerned about any moisture in the cigar turning into water vapor and then to condensation on the wrapper resulting in a soggy oily wrapper. Cigars IMO are suppsed to have a uniform moisture content to provide a cool and consistient burn with little harshness. I would also be concerend that the steam / vapor could cause some sort of cellular integrity issues within the leaf itself (mostly the wrapper) causing tears that may effect the draw.


Ditto. If the integrity of the cigar is broken down at all - especially the wrapper, but affecting internal stability, as well, this could present a problem that might not be evident until after the cigar is stored for awhile. I mean, you don't want the cigar to disintegrate in your humi. Maybe a problem, maybe not, but you'd have to experiment with storage to find out.

It's an interesting endeavor, though! 

-Ken


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## OtterAKL4987 (Jun 4, 2007)

This is quite an experiment. Could be worth trying. Thanks for the interesting read.


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## tzaddi (Feb 24, 2007)

Interesting, remember Pyro's thread concerning his experiment using heat (microwave) to kill beetles and checking for potential flavor changes.

http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showthread.php?t=94229&highlight=microwave

His reception by contrast was not as smooth. Perhaps the scientific community has advanced since those early experiments way back in 07-17-2007

Oh you pioneers.... such is the life of a trailblazer.

Interesting indeed!!

Thanks for sharing.


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## Pyro (Nov 10, 2006)

I'm trying to think about how to explain the positive outcome of No1der's experiment:

The oils and other components responsible for the aroma and taste of the cigar were there from the beginning. Treating bagged cigars with hot water is probably to low a temperature to break down or alter the pyrochemistry of the oils and other substances. But, apparently the oils were driven to the surface of the cigar!

Maybe this explains why the cigar tasted better since this could be something close to an analogy of how much the wrapper contributes to the aroma and taste of a cigar! Could it be that oils in the middle of the cigar are lost or destroyed to a bigger extent during the combustion compared to oils located in the wrapper?

If so, the migration of oils etc. to the superficial parts of the cigar could be one of the unknown processes during long time aging that partly would explain the change in taste and aroma!

(I also would like to add that when I did the experiments with wicrowaves, I heated the cigars for much shorter periods of time and there probably was not much movement of the oils. I also let the cigars re-condition for ten days before smoking them!)


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## No1der (Apr 2, 2007)

Pyro said:


> I'm trying to think about how to explain the positive outcome of No1der's experiment:
> 
> The oils and other components responsible for the aroma and taste of the cigar were there from the beginning. Treating bagged cigars with hot water is probably to low a temperature to break down or alter the pyrochemistry of the oils and other substances. But, apparently the oils were driven to the surface of the cigar!
> 
> ...


That's an interesting take on the experiment. I think you may be onto something there. I guess there is a lot of experimenting still left to do.

I just wanted add that the cigar from yesterday was a darn good and very very enjoyable smoke.


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## Dan_ (Dec 16, 2006)

Imagine if you aged one for a good year after boiling it...


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## Silound (May 22, 2007)

JPH said:


> Weird...
> 
> Reminds me of the guy who put the cigar in the micowave...
> 
> ...


That would have been me. However, I think he better accomplished what I was trying for.

Mine kinda came out sitting in a puddle of moisture that escaped during the cooking. It wasn't really immediately smokable.

The problem I ran into was that the only way to ensure the oils surface is to boil or steam the water out of the tobacco. Thus, I have a dry stick leftover that, at best, would take 2 months in a humi just to bring it back up to smokable conditions.


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## SmokinApe (Jun 20, 2007)

What about putting a cigar in the toaster?


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## kvaughan (Jul 11, 2006)

I'd like to see what more of the FOGs think about this lol


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## BigVito (Jan 1, 2000)

kvaughan said:


> I'd like to see what more of the FOGs think about this lol


I'm not a FOG, but I think if he repeats this with success, I like it.


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## No1der (Apr 2, 2007)

Silound said:


> That would have been me. However, I think he better accomplished what I was trying for.
> 
> Mine kinda came out sitting in a puddle of moisture that escaped during the cooking. It wasn't really immediately smokable.
> 
> The problem I ran into was that the only way to ensure the oils surface is to boil or steam the water out of the tobacco. Thus, I have a dry stick leftover that, at best, would take 2 months in a humi just to bring it back up to smokable conditions.


I think that this sort of experiment must take place with the cigar tightly sealed in an air free enviornment. I made the mistake of crushing the cigar with the vaccume and the heat made the wrinkling worse. So the sealing need to be applied with moderation. I sealed that padron at full power of the vacusealer/foodsaver thing and that was likely a mistake.

Also, the problem with microwaves is that they cook food or cigars or anything from the outside in. Boiling water is pretty much going to heat the cigar uniformaly and very quickly.

Also, having the cigar sealed means that nothing can escape from the cigar itself, so whatever was in the cigar before boiling is still in the cigar due to the tight and waterproof vacubag.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Keep the comments coming guys, the more input I get the better the next experiment will turn out.


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## LORD PUFFER (Dec 27, 2006)

Kngof9ex said:


> You get my vote im gonna have to go buy one of those vacuum sealers now. im interested to see how this works on other types of cigars...


I think this sums up how sick we gorillas are now. Never invested in something practical in a vacuum sealer, but when it might enhance our cigars, no problem shelling out the 120 bucks. We are truly in for it.:hn


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## No1der (Apr 2, 2007)

LORD PUFFER said:


> I think this sums up how sick we gorillas are now. Never invested in something practical in a vacuum sealer, but when it might enhance our cigars, no problem shelling out the 120 bucks. We are truly in for it.:hn


Yes, we do go to great lengths to make our hobby more exciting. That's what makes this hobby/addiction so much fun.

However, you're a littl off on the price. You can probably pick one up for around $30 and Wallmart... The bags are cheap too.

Oh yeah, and the food sealer works great for storing food in your freezer. No freezer burn and food can be stored for a much longer time in the freezer and even the fridge.


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## forrest (Jul 14, 2007)

Holy cow. You're at the cutting edge of science and technology, working at improving life for gorilla-kind planetwide. Awesome job, and a great read.


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## Marlboro Cigars-cl (Feb 19, 2007)

Awesome experiment; I'll have to try this for myself.
:tu


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## No1der (Apr 2, 2007)

Thank you all for the great comments. I think that there is potential in this experiment and I think when enough of us experiment we'll come up with something special.

To all the Gorillas that are wanting to try this, be sure to use sticks that you know the taste of but aren't "premium" because individual results may varry.

I'm going to be trying this again soon, possibly as soon as tomorrow.

The changes I plan to make is to not vaccume seal the cigar as tightly. Also, I think I will keep it at a higher temperature for a longer period of time.

Now, what gave me this idea in the first place was that History Channel piece that featured the Fuente Cigar "factory"... They stated that tobaco, as it cures, can reach temperatures well over 110* Farenheit... So I'm guessing that staying under 200* is a safe number.

I suppose that in a way this experiment recreats ,to some degree, the enviornment of the factory curing/aging/preperation proccess.

I'm really looking forward to trying a slightly modified version of this experiment very very soon. I'm excited about this, who knows what will become of it.

Just a thought, but I think that the stogies recomended in the "The official" TXMatt's cheap smokes thread are some excellent candidates as they are inexpensive and already good.


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## No1der (Apr 2, 2007)

Experiment Number 2 is now in the works.

Here is what has taken place in the past few minutes. This is actually a copy of a PM I sent to Silound...

"I couldn't wait so I started a second experiment. I took the Davidoff distributed 4x4 that was mentioned in Txmat's thread. I sealed it with less pressure this time, put it in a pot of water and brought it up to a boil.

Then, I took the cigar out, put it in a thermos and poured the very hot water in and sealed it. Now, if the vacu bag can take it and there are no leaks (I really hope there are no leaks) I will take the cigar out in about 4 hours and see what it looks like, I think I'll then pour the water into an open container and let the cigar come back to room temperature.

I'm hoping that the gradual return to room temperature will allow the cigar to relax any wrinkles that may have formed. We'll see what happens."


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## tzaddi (Feb 24, 2007)

Not to be a buzz kill but a word of caution when heating plastics in close proximity to consumables. Heating plastics increases their rate of molecular migration.

Ever leave a bottle of water in a car on a hot day and come back to it for a swig only to notice that funny plastic smell? That smell is volatilized plastic.

Plastic is made by combining monomers into polymers under great heat and pressure in a process called polymerization. Each manufacturer has its own proprietary formula for each plastic. And each uses a variety of additives such as plasticizers for flexibility, UV filters for protection from sunlight, antistatic agents, flame-retardants, colorants, antioxidants, and more. Check it out and decide if consuming minute amounts of plastics when you smoke a cigar is that big of a deal. You may also want to check out a monomer called Bisphenol-A (BPA).

It's still a great experiment, perhaps using glass as the container would yield better results.:2


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## Silound (May 22, 2007)

tzaddi said:


> Not to be a buzz kill but a word of caution when heating plastics in close proximity to consumables. Heating plastics increases their rate of molecular migration.
> 
> Ever leave a bottle of water in a car on a hot day and come back to it for a swig only to notice that funny plastic smell? That smell is volatilized plastic.
> 
> ...


Good thinking. I checked on that.


University of Illinois said:


> *FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE*
> July 3, 2006
> "I thought it was important to respond to a questionably safe Food Fad, the ZIPLOC OMELET. It is the latest NOT recommended fad. Please... DON'T try this at home and we will tell you exactly why. What is circulating around again is instructions on cooking omelets in Ziploc bags. This is not recommended until further research is done on cooking with plastics. There is still question about the cancer causing breakdown of plastics and their contact with food during cooking.
> "We have contacted the Ziploc company and they replied by telling us that ZIPLOC® brand Bags cannot be used to boil food. They also told us that they do not manufacture a "boilable" bag.... yet.
> ...


And further from http://www.ziploc.ca/ziploc_questions.asp

*4. Can I boil in Ziploc® Brand bags?*
No. Ziploc® Brand bags are not designed to withstand the extreme heat of boiling.

However, this isn't meant for consumption, so as long as the plastic doesn't melt, I'm not seeing any real danger outright.

A boilable bag or container may be worth looking into.


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## Silound (May 22, 2007)

Another search and I discover that most poly-plastic rated for vacuum storage of food is also rated for the heat.

Alternatively, I've been looking at extreme heat bags, like autoclave bags, that could withstand being boiled.

More to come as I find more.


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## No1der (Apr 2, 2007)

Silound said:


> Another search and I discover that most poly-plastic rated for vacuum storage of food is also rated for the heat.
> 
> Alternatively, I've been looking at extreme heat bags, like autoclave bags, that could withstand being boiled.
> 
> More to come as I find more.


:tpd:

The Vaccume sealing bags are rated for cooking so there is no problem in using them for this or any other "cooking temperature" activities.


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## Lorglath (Aug 22, 2007)

Great points all, I know there are a lot of us interested in this, so everyones :2 is greatly appreciated even if we don't always post it. Please keep up the good work, and us informed!


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## gary106334 (Sep 28, 2006)

Lorglath said:


> Great points all, I know there are a lot of us interested in this, so everyones :2 is greatly appreciated even if we don't always post it. Please keep up the good work, and us informed!


I agree. I have a food saver vacuum and have vacuumed cigars but not for the same reason. You have definitely caught my interest.


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## No1der (Apr 2, 2007)

Update:

A second Padron was left in very hot water overnight in a thermos. I just opened the thermos and removed the vacusealed cigar, I took it out of the pressure sealed vacubag and put it in a ziploc bag.

I then placed the ziplock bag in a large dish and poured the still hot thermos water into the dish containing the padron.

I feel that this slow cooling of the Padron will allow it to maybe cool down without any sort of themal shock. So when the water reaches room temperature so will the Padron.

The other cigar, mentioned last night, has been resting in my humidor overnight after a 4 hour Hot, thermos batch. The vacubag pressure was very ligh on this one unlike the second Padron mentioned above.


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## No1der (Apr 2, 2007)

Update:

The second Padron that was held in the thermos for no less than 12 hours, has now been brought up to room temperature using the slow method described in my previous post.

The cigar seems to have unwrinkled considerably more than in the previous experiment.

It is now sitting in my humi and I think I will let it rest untill tomorrow.

The same may or may not be true for the other cigar in the test so that one might get smoked tonight as it was treated differently from the Padron.

Both cigars look really good and have a great "barnyard" smell. In fact the smell is far stronger than that of their un-boiled brothers.


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## Sisyphus (Oct 9, 2005)

No1der said:


> Both cigars look really good and have a great "barnyard" smell. In fact the smell is far stronger than that of their un-boiled brothers.


Ammonia, you think?

-Ken


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## No1der (Apr 2, 2007)

Sisyphus said:


> Ammonia, you think?
> 
> -Ken


Maybe a little bit, now that you mention it, but not overwhelming. The barnyard smell is certainly there.


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## No1der (Apr 2, 2007)

Update:

Ok, here is a picture of two cigars of the from the same box. The one on the right was boiled in a low pressure vaccubag, let to sit in a termos for 3 hours in hot water at around 120*F.

The cigar on the left is one that was untouched and simply placed there for comparison of color of the wrapper.

Please keep in mind that this was a very mild version of the experiment so the changes are not as dramatic as previous results but you can certainly tell (even with my really crappy camera) that the wrapper of the "treated" cigar is a little darker and glossier. 

As already stated, the cigar was kept in a microenviornment in the vaccubag during the whole proccess so it didn't come in contact with anything but heat from the boiling water.

Here is a bad picture from a lousy camera, in person the visual is far more dramatic so I appologize for the bad quality of the picutre. For the moment it's the best I can do.



I believe I will be smoking this one today since it's had a 20-24 hour rest.


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## Jbailey (Nov 9, 2006)

Just found this thread. What a crazy experiment, and glad it worked out with tasty results. Great idea and work No1der:tu

Can't wait to hear if get and bloom on the sticks.

One small step for mankind, one F***ing huge leap for gorillas!


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## schweiger_schmoke (Jun 16, 2007)

thunderbucks said:


> Jeeze! This is _NUCKING FUTS!_


LoLz!!!

Very creative idea you have here. Had to have invented crack. :2


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## No1der (Apr 2, 2007)

Jbailey said:


> Just found this thread. What a crazy experiment, and glad it worked out with tasty results. Great idea and work No1der:tu
> 
> Can't wait to hear if get and bloom on the sticks.
> 
> One small step for mankind, one F***ing huge leap for gorillas!





schweiger_schmoke said:


> LoLz!!!
> 
> Very creative idea you have here. Had to have invented crack. :2


Thanks much for the kudo's. Huge leap for Gorillas? I don't know about that but if I contribute just a little bit to our collective knowledge I'll be happy. :tu

Nah, if I had invented Crack I think I would either be dead or independently wealthy by now.

Stay tuned for a review of the pictured cigar very shortly.


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## worr lord (Feb 3, 2007)

I can't wait to hear how this went *eats popcorn*


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## BigVito (Jan 1, 2000)

No1der said:


> Thanks much for the kudo's. Huge leap for Gorillas? I don't know about that but if I contribute just a little bit to our collective knowledge I'll be happy. :tu
> 
> Nah, if I had invented Crack I think I would either be dead or independently wealthy by now.
> 
> Stay tuned for a review of the pictured cigar very shortly.


I would say you would be independently dead


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## BigVito (Jan 1, 2000)

worr lord said:


> I can't wait to hear how this went *eats popcorn*


I hope that isn't microwave popcorn


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## Sisyphus (Oct 9, 2005)

BigVito said:


> I would say you would be independently dead





BigVito said:


> I hope that isn't microwave popcorn


:r
Feeling a bit pessimistic today?

-Ken


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## BigVito (Jan 1, 2000)

Sisyphus said:


> :r
> Feeling a bit pessimistic today?
> 
> -Ken


:r unwittingly so it would look


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## worr lord (Feb 3, 2007)

BigVito said:


> I hope that isn't microwave popcorn


I don't even eat popcorn...


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## gary106334 (Sep 28, 2006)

Update????????????????


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## No1der (Apr 2, 2007)

gary106334 said:


> Update????????????????


Updates are in the works, unfortunately I haven't had as much time the past few days to really do much smoking or experimenting. That will change very shortly, I haven't forgotten.

Boiled Cigars, coming right up.


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## Silound (May 22, 2007)

No1der said:


> Updates are in the works, unfortunately I haven't had as much time the past few days to really do much smoking or experimenting. That will change very shortly, I haven't forgotten.
> 
> Boiled Cigars, coming right up.


Aaaand the verdict is?


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## No1der (Apr 2, 2007)

Silound said:


> Aaaand the verdict is?


Update:

As I posted earlier, I repeated the proccess described using two different cigars.

The cigars in question were a second Padron 3000 as well as the 4X4 "Distributed by Davidoff and made by Occidental"... These are two different cigars with two very different flavor profiles.

In any case, the results were mixed. The 4X4 didn't hold up well as the wrapper is thinner and the result was a cigar with changed but good flavor but the draw was terrible as the wrapper no longer held a good seal and thus a lot of air leaks. I couldn't finish the cigar or even get very far into it because of the wrapper problems. My thoughts are that this cigar should also have been boiled under a high pressure vaccume seal instead of the low pressure seal I was experimenting with.

The Padron was a whole other story as it was boiled using the high vaccume pressure seal...

The only drawback was that since I used a very high vaccuseal pressure, the cigar was compressed to a point that the cigar ended up plugged. I remedied this with a tool that I prepared for any and all plugged cigars.

The flavor of the Padron was very much like the first experiment in flavor profile but the degree and strength of flavors was more varried than the first experiment review.

There was a very tasty and creamy character of the sweetness of this cigar which was more pronounced than the first one. A mixture of chocolate latte flavors were extremely enjoyable and kept alternating betweein the chocolate and coffee flavors...

The wrapper was naturally wrinkled but this was not a problem for me, it simply gave the wrapper a more "toothy" texture...

I would say that the Padron had a slightly similair flavor to that of an aged Tatuaje yet it had qualities that were also different enough from both the Tatuaje as well as Padron flavors to make this a cigar that was in reality enough unlike either one to make it a brand new flavor.

I still don't think that aging is what resulted in this experiment but rather a different type of melding of essential oils...

It's really difficult to compare this resulting cigar to anything I have ever tried before, yet it had many characteristics as I stated above...

I'm going to have to continue testing different cigars I am familiar with using this proccess but still tweaking the pressure and resting of the boiled cigar...

I will post future results as I experiment further.


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