# How can we make it better?



## Rock31 (Sep 30, 2010)

Been thinking over the last few days and figured I should follow some simple advice.....just ask.

So Puff members, what would you like to see here in the Habanos section on Puff, what would make it more inviting, what would make you pop on here more and get things going again on the Habanos side. If you have an idea, wish or thought just post it here and let's see if we can make some of it happen.

We may get turned down but hey....all we can do is bring up the topic and ask.

Thanks!


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

This is a great thread and long long long overdue. I know what i would like to see as an older member. But i shall refrain from suggesting.
I think its all about you younger members. I always said you are the future of the forum.
Speak up and be heard!
Hopefully someone in power will listen.


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## ShaneG (Apr 9, 2014)

There aught to be a NST of sorts for habanos, because then people could try more things. Or even a paid sampler if the ftp was not into NC cigars at all. The entry to CCs is fraught with danger and uncertainty things are harder to access and can only be purchased by the box- it's easy to get into cigars, you walk into your local tobacconist and buy something, pay a little too much and then develop your tastes like that- cc is not so accessible. I think a lot of people, myself included would be interested in participating this way, but it is against the forum rules so we can't have this outside of PMs, and if you pm someone proposing this you just look like a mooch or a trap, and you can't just expect senior members to send PMs invitjng everyone. Perhaps if there were a 'researching' section- where a noob could be paired up with willing cc experts to do joint research to learn more about the cigars. Of course this would not be a trade but could put parties interested in learning more in touch with parties interested in sharing... Knowledge of CCs.

How about that?


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## ShaneG (Apr 9, 2014)

That was my 666th post, so I'm posting again to change that.


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## Drez_ (Jan 30, 2014)

I think part of it, for me at least, is that there is so much to explore in the world of NC.. As an actual new cigar smoker, I really do enjoy trying each new cigar, even if it turns out to be one I don't like. I've smoked a couple of CC, and have a handful more of various ones resting.. I just don't think I'm ready to dedicate the time, nor have the experience, to enjoy them as they should be..

I've seen a few of the "quitting NC" threads once members get access to these boards, and I don't really get that. Maybe it's that I haven't found "the" CC for me yet, but I don't see myself ever going doing that one-sided path. Nothing against those that do, but once I do travel down the CC road on a regular basis, I can't see them replacing some of my favorite NC brands completely.

There are a couple of board members who I would feel comfortable enough to message at purchasing or trading, and would hope with previous interactions they would not feel I was being sneaky or them at risk. It's just generally not polite to do something like that, and I am not in such a need that it is something I want to do.

The idea of a Newbie Trade or MAW.. Perhaps not a pay it forward, but more of a newbie MAW and then someone more experienced in this realm would fulfill it if willing. It's not that some of us aren't interested, it's that many of the "new" members just may not have access to the stock to do a pay-it forward like the one hosted on the boards currently. Some current, up to date reviews from experienced CC smokers aimed at newbies to the world might help too.

Also, more general discussion here might bring more members into the fold.. Just from new threads and browsing, not a whole lot is discussed here by anyone.. There is the standard Latest Purchase and What did you smoke today thread, but not too much more in terms of active ongoing threads. I think a good number of the more "active" new board members still don't have access to these boards yet.


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## piperdown (Jul 19, 2009)

Excellent topic!
We can't promise anything but we're certainly trying to implement new ideas. So, keep coming with suggestions!


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## Rock31 (Sep 30, 2010)

Here are a few things I would love to see here:

*Some type of NST*, whether it be Non Cubans for Cubans or a cash trade, say $40 buy in from the new smoker.
*Group Buys* - this gives everyone a chance at getting 5 or 10 cigars to try without breaking the bank.
*Vendor Discussion* - I know every forum is different but if you look around everyone is doing it.

If all the above fails, I would like to see a Sticky in the Habanos section that says "Feel free to contact these members for advice" then veterans to the board can add their name so new smokers know it is ok to contact them with questions, this avoids the whole "being looked down on or being looked at as a mooch"

And last but not least, if any of the above gets the green light on a trial basis, I am more than willing to moderate the threads if needed.


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## brimy623 (May 25, 2013)

@ShaneG @Drez_

I'm just getting into CC's. Have had a few here & there, hitchhikers with NC buys, bombs. And most recently I was afforded the opportunity to get a nice sampler from a BOTL who I built a relationship with buying NC's and just talking to about different smokes I've seen him with.

Talk to the more experienced here about what they are smoking, just like you do on the NC side of the board. Somebody post what they are smoking, ask him questions 'what do you think?, how was it?" Just like on the NC side.

I also agree with @Rock31 , maybe vendor discussion & group buys, sales, trades need to be allowed. It is done very freely other places.


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## dvickery (Jan 1, 2000)

on the techy side ... re arrange the reviews section ... seperate sub forums for all the brands ... eg all bolivar reviews in a bolivar sub forum and all cohiba reviews in the cohiba sub forum etc .

a lot of work for someone but makes research easier for those interested in opinions on a particular cigar .

derrek


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## SmokinSpider (May 12, 2010)

For myself and I would imagine this is the same for most new members to this side of the tracks is Where do I buy from? That is my biggest hurdle. Since don't know who to buy from I cant get my hands on anything therefore I have no real reason to post in the CC thread. 
I have had access to the CC side for a while but nothing to add or contribute. I really like the idea of some type of vendor discussion. I really like the other ideas as well, I think f we can focus on "getting CCs into the hands of new members and giving them access to more then this place might pick up a bit but most importantly be a more inviting place. Its really intimidating when a new member comes over and there are all these don't do this, don't do that, don't mention them, don't talk about that,it makes wanting to participate a struggle.


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## Rock31 (Sep 30, 2010)

SmokinSpider said:


> For myself and I would imagine this is the same for most new members to this side of the tracks is Where do I buy from? That is my biggest hurdle. Since don't know who to buy from I cant get my hands on anything therefore I have no real reason to post in the CC thread.
> I have had access to the CC side for a while but nothing to add or contribute. I really like the idea of some type of vendor discussion. I really like the other ideas as well, I think f we can focus on "getting CCs into the hands of new members and giving them access to more then this place might pick up a bit but most importantly be a more inviting place. Its really intimidating when a new member comes over and there are all these don't do this, don't do that, don't mention them, don't talk about that,it makes wanting to participate a struggle.


Well said and I think this is a big issue here. New members are excited 'WAHOOO I finally get access to the Habanos section' then I imagine that excitement turns to disappointment and they make their way back to the Non-Habanos section and stay there.

This is the big topic we need to work on.


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## Rock31 (Sep 30, 2010)

dvickery said:


> on the techy side ... re arrange the reviews section ... seperate sub forums for all the brands ... eg all bolivar reviews in a bolivar sub forum and all cohiba reviews in the cohiba sub forum etc .
> 
> a lot of work for someone but makes research easier for those interested in opinions on a particular cigar .
> 
> derrek


I like this idea as well.

I would also like to add, how about a Sticky where people can post what they like and we can make recommendations, for example.

Mark likes leather, grass and cocoa. He prefers a smaller RG cigar. Then based on that people can recommend him x, y and z. It would make it easier for people to follow up on and use as a "flavor" database.


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## egoo33 (Jul 21, 2013)

Would love to see a trade section or if that can't happen wonder if we could create something like a sub reddit like /r/PuffHabanos where sources trades can be discussed. Granted I know that the idea of having another site to supplement this site doesn't make a whole lot of sense but just throwing stuff out there.


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## maverickmage (Feb 10, 2008)

Bleh... typed up a whole response and decided to delete it. It seemed like it would cause an argument.

Long story short, you can't have a thriving section without new blood. Problem lies in the fact that newbies can't easily get access to CCs to try. You can't talk about what you don't know.


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## SeanTheEvans (Dec 13, 2013)

There are a lot of great ideas getting tossed around here, but I feel like the main points can all easily be taken care of without any actual changes to Puff.

Anyone can freely start a thread where they state what they like and ask for recommendations.

Anyone can freely start a thread where they state that they are very n00b friendly and that you can come to them for advice without any harsh judgements. Others can also comment on said thread and agree if they'd like.

Once these interactions start up, anything is pretty much coolio via PM. 

If someone wanted to stat up some sort of pass, they'd simple have to say "I like trying new pizzas. If you want to send pizzas to each other please PM me and we can all arrange an order that works for shipping our pizzas."
PM the rest. 

I know it seems like a PITA, but it's really easy to work around what has already been set up without making anyone feel like they're changing their stance on things. There. :lol:


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## Rock31 (Sep 30, 2010)

SeanTheEvans said:


> There are a lot of great ideas getting tossed around here, but I feel like the main points can all easily be taken care of without any actual changes to Puff.
> 
> Anyone can freely start a thread where they state what they like and ask for recommendations.
> 
> ...


I actually despise having to have these discussions via PM, at that point I might as well give out my cell phone number and email and just say contact me via text or email with questions.

We need to transform this section and removing restrictions is a great start IMO.


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## JCubed (Mar 5, 2014)

SmokinSpider said:


> For myself and I would imagine this is the same for most new members to this side of the tracks is Where do I buy from? That is my biggest hurdle. Since don't know who to buy from I cant get my hands on anything therefore I have no real reason to post in the CC thread.
> I have had access to the CC side for a while but nothing to add or contribute. I really like the idea of some type of vendor discussion. I really like the other ideas as well, I think f we can focus on "getting CCs into the hands of new members and giving them access to more then this place might pick up a bit but most importantly be a more inviting place. Its really intimidating when a new member comes over and there are all these don't do this, don't do that, don't mention them, don't talk about that,it makes wanting to participate a struggle.


Like @Rock31 said, I agree with this 100%. It's hard to explore something new when the path there is cryptic and forbidden.

However, this is not to say we should just open up all discussions and provide links. Legality has to come into play somewhere, especially on a site that sells adspace to customers (and I am in no way an expert on said legality).

There has to be another/creative/loop-holey way of approaching the problem rather than just avoiding it at all costs. Or maybe the rules/law isn't as extreme as it's been made to sound. Or maybe there's nothing that can be done and the forums others have mentioned are playing with fire. It's at least worth some exploration.


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## Drez_ (Jan 30, 2014)

Rock31 said:


> *Some type of NST*, whether it be Non Cubans for Cubans or a cash trade, say $40 buy in from the new smoker.


Really think this is the best idea..It allows those new to Cubans to offer a trade, and not feel like and/or seem like they are trying to get something for nothing. It could even be set up that you must have a minimum of # trades and a current good standing across all boards to participate. Once those more familiar with purchasing CC are comfortable with those traded with, vendor information can easily be shared privately. It would bring new blood to this side of the forum.. I really do think more general discussion needs to happen here by all parties to keep it active, though. (This side of the forum, not that one particular thread.)



brimy623 said:


> I'm just getting into CC's. Have had a few here & there, hitchhikers with NC buys, bombs. And most recently I was afforded the opportunity to get a nice sampler from a BOTL who I built a relationship with buying NC's and just talking to about different smokes I've seen him with.
> 
> Talk to the more experienced here about what they are smoking, just like you do on the NC side of the board. Somebody post what they are smoking, ask him questions 'what do you think?, how was it?" Just like on the NC side.


Without a doubt. I've picked up a handful of travelers in packages, and I've also managed to snag a purchase in the same manner. As I said, I'm comfortable with approaching a couple of members if I were interested in going that route to try and get some. I also am aware of vendors they use, so it isn't a necessity in that regard. I think the problem lies in a lot of new members are not willing to risk the reaction of going that route for whatever reason.



SeanTheEvans said:


> There are a lot of great ideas getting tossed around here, but I feel like the main points can all easily be taken care of without any actual changes to Puff.
> 
> Anyone can freely start a thread where they state what they like and ask for recommendations.
> 
> ...


Again, not that it all can't be done that way.. I just think some people are gun shy about approaching the subjects.. There are some instances where people get somewhat harsh reactions on the NC side of things for mentioning CC and trying to discuss them. While not the proper place, the reactions faced can cause some of them to not be interested in venturing down that road again. Or others who might have seen it.

EDIT: The reddit idea is actually not a bad idea for this topic. The things can be discussed there rather openly, in terms of trades/vendors. I think the only downside to that is that it doesn't bring the activity sought to this board but takes it elsewhere.


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## brimy623 (May 25, 2013)

Drez_ said:


> I think the problem lies in a lot of new members are not willing to risk the reaction of going that route for whatever reason.


LOL, I understand what you're saying.
Unfortunately a few newbs have come on a little strong & quick in terms of "asking" for bombs and such, instead of building a relationship.


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## brimy623 (May 25, 2013)

SeanTheEvans said:


> without making anyone feel like they're changing their stance on things. There. :lol:


Change is good! 
And sometimes necessary.


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## egoo33 (Jul 21, 2013)

I would love to be able to talk about vendors just to be able to discuss prices, for the most part a listing of prices is a google search away, hell I have the excel sheet saved and I feel the majority of us use the same vendors or if not use them know of them.

The main reason I posted the reddit idea is to be able to say just that but I get that this site is ad driven but my caveat to that would be to implement a donation system like another forum to offset any loss of traffic. I would gladly kick up a few bucks to not have to see a Macanudo ad on my iPad


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## defetis (Jan 5, 2014)




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## gehrig97 (Aug 19, 2007)

Just adding +1 to everything that has been discussed so far.


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## jeffmn (Mar 20, 2013)

Interesting topic, I will be following for sure. I am curious what might come of this.


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## JustinThyme (Jun 17, 2013)

Rock31;4065836 I might as well give out my cell phone number and email and just say contact me via text or email with questions.
[/QUOTE said:


> Too late, I already have it! LOL
> 
> Im right in the same boat with all the others. The hush hush is what kills it but on that same line its hard to allow it.
> 
> ...


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## jp1979 (Sep 12, 2013)

I agree that a group buy section would be fantastic, as mentioned it would allow a lot of us to try more with spending less. And the vendor discussion idea, would be awesome, I agree with all that have said this, it is hard to get into CC without the help of one of the FOG's being able to guide us new guys where to go as to not get ripped off. I have a pretty decent sized stash and it is 90% NC simply because of the non ability to try different stuff, because the 2 vendors I use only sell boxes. Those 2 suggested changes would solve both of those problems. 

I don't understand why PUFF.com is so freaked out about liability of us trading CC. They are just a site, they can't control what we do here. I am pretty sure that ebay gets away with doing stuff that they are not supposed to do in the tobacco resale laws.


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## egoo33 (Jul 21, 2013)

jp1979 said:


> I agree that a group buy section would be fantastic, as mentioned it would allow a lot of us to try more with spending less. And the vendor discussion idea, would be awesome, I agree with all that have said this, it is hard to get into CC without the help of one of the FOG's being able to guide us new guys where to go as to not get ripped off. I have a pretty decent sized stash and it is 90% NC simply because of the non ability to try different stuff, because the 2 vendors I use only sell boxes. Those 2 suggested changes would solve both of those problems.
> 
> I don't understand why PUFF.com is so freaked out about liability of us trading CC. They are just a site, they can't control what we do here. I am pretty sure that ebay gets away with doing stuff that they are not supposed to do in the tobacco resale laws.


I'd love to get into that deep deep ocean of REs but too rich for my blood to go in head first but come hell or high water this holiday season I will have a JL in my humidor


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## anthony d (May 10, 2014)

I lurk in the cc section only. Having asked about acquiring cc's, and being told how easy it is, but still being unable to locate a trustworthy source, has gotten me nothing but frustrated.

As for what can change, maybe have a n00b cc sub-section where we can "enlist" the help of a cc veteran maybe? Or have a veteran take a n00b and school them on all things cc-related?

I would definitely be interested in a group buy, box split, or any sort of purchase otherwise since I have had no luck on my own and want to see what I am missing since I have yet to try a cc.


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## thebigk (Jan 16, 2013)

JustinThyme said:


> My single biggest hurdle was where to start with vendors. You get "do your homework" pushed at you but all the homework one can do does not mean the vendor you choose is reputable, there are plenty of fakes to be had and rip offs are numbered even more. Right now I'm at two vendors, I would like to have more to pool from and see daily specials etc but I'm not allowed to ask. The two I did get were from other BOTLS that were kind enough to point me in the right direction and I'm very grateful for that!


 This is part needs to open up To me it seem they would rather you feed the enemy and buy there fakes the let someone guide you


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## egoo33 (Jul 21, 2013)

thebigk said:


> This is part needs to open up To me it seem they would rather you feed the enemy and buy there fakes the let someone guide you


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## pmr1010 (Jul 13, 2013)

No vendors should be mentioned openly. But the discussion of purchases already goes on as in "What's your latest Cuban Cigar purchase?" I still feel box splits should not be forced underground because how would someone new know? 

Since it will never be allowed openly, if anyone is EVER interested in splitting boxes, PM me.


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## OnePyroTec (Dec 11, 1997)

jp1979 said:


> I don't understand why PUFF.com is so freaked out about liability


Those are some key words. PM a mod and ask why :ranger:


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## OnePyroTec (Dec 11, 1997)

dvickery said:


> on the techy side ... re arrange the reviews section ... seperate sub forums for all the brands ... eg all bolivar reviews in a bolivar sub forum and all cohiba reviews in the cohiba sub forum etc .
> 
> a lot of work for someone but makes research easier for those interested in opinions on a particular cigar .
> 
> derrek


:amen:


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## magoo6541 (Mar 9, 2014)

I like all of the suggestions that @Rock31 has proposed.

The lack of vendor discussion is probably one of the more difficult parts of this section. I think it's difficult to have open, lively and informative discussion unless you are pretty free on what can be said without fear of breaking the rules. There's a bunch of things that I wanted to contribute to a thread but felt compelled not to because I *might* be violating a rule. I can see how a new person would feel less likely to spend time in this section because of fear of an unintentional impropriety.

ETA:



dvickery said:


> on the techy side ... re arrange the reviews section ... seperate sub forums for all the brands ... eg all bolivar reviews in a bolivar sub forum and all cohiba reviews in the cohiba sub forum etc .
> 
> a lot of work for someone but makes research easier for those interested in opinions on a particular cigar .
> 
> derrek


I like this idea as well.


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## OnePyroTec (Dec 11, 1997)

Ryan, believe it or not, the vendors guarantee delivery don't want their names tossed around in open forums.


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## Cigar-Enthusiast (Feb 2, 2014)

Let me be blunt.

This policy is in the dark ages. Censorship doesn't work and it is obvious that this forum encourages information spreading through PMs. (Which I find are highly annoying and a pain in the ass.) If the Feds wanted to bust you guys, they would have already. When they do want to bust you, they will. All this "strict" policy is achieving is lulling the owners or the forum of a false sense of security. If you are going to allow talk of CC, you might as well just allow it all. 

Only thing Puff is lacking is a good CC section and maybe some backup servers.


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## Drez_ (Jan 30, 2014)

OnePyroTec said:


> Ryan, believe it or not, the vendors guarantee delivery don't want their names tossed around in open forums.


Absolutely. At the same time, the more experienced members should know the newer members somewhat and be familiar with the activity on the boards, both sides. It shouldn't be taboo for someone with great trader feedback and general good reputation to be able to post asking for a good, safe place to purchase. While you can do that - and in honesty will probably get one with the answer you are seeking..you're going to get as many rude or harsh open comments telling you not to ask. It discourages other new members browsing the boards to even try to enter discussions.


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## Bernardini (Nov 14, 2013)

OnePyroTec said:


> Ryan, believe it or not, the vendors guarantee delivery don't want their names tossed around in open forums.


Regarding vendor discussion, I can see how some of the vendors who guarantee shipment wouldn't want to have that blasted in an open forum. However, I wish there could be a list or thread about vendors to AVOID.

I understand puff might be scared from a liability standpoint but, for example, if referring to AndysCheapCubanCigars as a fake peddler, I wrote "hey A%ysCC's screwed me over and never shipped," what's the problem? This is already done a BUNCH in the NC section. Seems every week someone is asking "Hey, is CI any good? Can I trust them?" or "Famous sent me busted sticks." If noobs (like myself) knew whom to avoid, it would add to the comfort level of that first purchase.

Oh, and like others said, would love to see a box split forum.


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## Rock31 (Sep 30, 2010)

OnePyroTec said:


> Ryan, believe it or not, the vendors guarantee delivery don't want their names tossed around in open forums.


Just wondering what you mean by tossed around? As in mentioned, or listed on an open forum? Or put in a bad light due to one issue or another? Because there are several of the bigger vendors that guarantee shipment that have a presence on US based forums and I believe one of them even is a sponsor for a US based podcast.

I am not saying we have to be as open as the other forums, but I believe there needs to be some leniency on this side of the forum if more participation is what the site wants.

I am not promoting full blown open in the air vendor discussions, but even a "hey this guy is good, stay away from this one" would work wonders for many of the members that made their way here.


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

I have read all your posts and there is much truth in what you are all saying!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My only fear is that it falls on deaf ears.
Till things change if they ever do.
The what is your latest Cuban Purchase thread is a good way to see what others are buying.
And a P.M to those who are proud of their new purchases goes a long way.
Once again discussing Cuban Cigars in the open carries no more liability than having a section where members can post purchases.
With pictures so clear if you really look its not hard to see where they are from.
One can read the info off the customs sticker.


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## pmr1010 (Jul 13, 2013)

Tony, don't get me wrong, I've posted what I've smoked and purchased. All I meant by the Latest Purchase thread reference was that a box split thread wasn't much different as long as no vendors were mentioned.


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## asmartbull (Aug 16, 2009)

My only concern about discussion of vendors is the protection of the vendors. While a list would be nice, I would not permit discussion of shipping methods and such.
1. Group buys of regular production Habanos
2. WTS / WTB or trade section
3. Organize the review section by Marca...I know that's a pain in the ass
Frankly, anything is a good start.


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## pmr1010 (Jul 13, 2013)

WTS/WTB is a GREAT idea!


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## Rock31 (Sep 30, 2010)

asmartbull said:


> My only concern about discussion of vendors is the protection of the vendors. While a list would be nice, I would not permit discussion of shipping methods and such.
> 1. Group buys of regular production Habanos
> 2. WTS / WTB or trade section
> 3. Organize the review section by Marca...I know that's a pain in the ass
> Frankly, anything is a good start.


I agree with Al here, there does not need to be and should not be a full blown open in the air discussion of vendors and their practices, that can be left for people to find out on their own, but a White list and Black List of some type I believe does need to be here at some point.


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

pmr1010 said:


> Tony, don't get me wrong, I've posted what I've smoked and purchased. All I meant by the Latest Purchase thread reference was that a box split thread wasn't much different as long as no vendors were mentioned.


Paul my post was not directed towards you or anyone else. It was merely an observation of the current mechanisms in place.


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## Tobias Lutz (Feb 18, 2013)

OnePyroTec said:


> Ryan, believe it or not, the vendors guarantee delivery don't want their names tossed around in open forums.


Amen.

Some great ideas being tossed around. I'd be really excited to see a trade/WTS section, and as someone who needs to learn more, anything to improve the review section is appreciated. I do think that naming vendors outright in a stickie, or open forum is pushing it. Perhaps if there was some allowance for older members to post "shoot me a PM, and I'll suggest a vendor"? I think we need to get away from everything being done in the dark, but we also need to allow those with the knowledge to share it on their terms. Getting random PMs from new guys going "who do you buy from" is less than tactful and somewhat annoying.


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

Rock31 said:


> I agree with Al here, there does not need to be and should not be a full blown open in the air discussion of vendors and their practices, that can be left for people to find out on their own, but a White list and Black List of some type I believe does need to be here at some point.


Even just a Black list would work IMHO.
Sorta like watching kids grow up.
You tell them what not to do the rest they learn on their own.
In this way they blossom instead of becoming robots.


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## Rock31 (Sep 30, 2010)

Tobias Lutz said:


> Amen.
> 
> Some great ideas being tossed around. I'd be really excited to see a trade/WTS section, and as someone who needs to learn more, anything to improve the review section is appreciated. I do think that naming vendors outright in a stickie, or open forum is pushing it. Perhaps if there was some allowance for older members to post "shoot me a PM, and I'll suggest a vendor"? I think we need to get away from everything being done in the dark, but we also need to allow those with the knowledge to share it on their terms. Getting random PMs from new guys going "who do you buy from" is less than tactful and somewhat annoying.


Why is it pushing it? A simple google search of "I want to but Cuban Cigars" returns many of the vendors that people use on a daily basis. This is not as open as some of the other forums, Puff requires x number of posts, x numbers of days as a member, other sites give you access on Day 1 to vendor lists and light discussion of them.


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## OnePyroTec (Dec 11, 1997)

To say brand X forum allows it, so PUFF should to is just childish. PUFF has rules, period. No one is stopping anyone from using other forums if you don't like the rules here. When my kids to go to a friends house, I expect them to play by those parents rules. This is PUFF's house, & PUFF's rules.

The easiest thing to do is get "your" vendors who don't care, and start your own forum that is free of any rules you don't wish to follow. That will make everyone happy.


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## ShaneG (Apr 9, 2014)

I think as many people that have viewed this thread says as much as the content- more than all but 10 threads on the first page of this section. Some change is needed.


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## asmartbull (Aug 16, 2009)

Rock31 said:


> Why is it pushing it? A simple google search of "I want to but Cuban Cigars" returns many of the vendors that people use on a daily basis. This is not as open as some of the other forums, Puff requires x number of posts, x numbers of days as a member, other sites give you access on Day 1 to vendor lists and light discussion of them.


Valid points.....but most of the other forums are invite only or very small in membership.....most public forums limit the discussion of sources. A simply white and black list would work.
I could also support a 90 day 100 post to get into the CC section, with a 30 day wait before opening a wts/wtb/wtt/group buy...ect


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## Rock31 (Sep 30, 2010)

OnePyroTec said:


> To say brand X forum allows it, so PUFF should to is just childish. PUFF has rules, period. No one is stopping anyone from using other forums if you don't like the rules here. When my kids to go to a friends house, I expect them to play by those parents rules. This is PUFF's house, & PUFF's rules.
> 
> The easiest thing to do is get "your" vendors who don't care, and start your own forum that is free of any rules you don't wish to follow. That will make everyone happy.


Ok, perhaps my point came off as childish and if it did I apologize. I do not mean to start an argument or anything. I am not saying we need to be like any other forum, we are all here on Puff because we enjoy the site and the members. However I do think or should I say wish some of the rules would be altered to allow for more discussions on the topic. And yes, members can choose other forums instead and lately it seems many of them are moving on to other places.


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## Drez_ (Jan 30, 2014)

Tobias Lutz said:


> Getting random PMs from new guys going "who do you buy from" is less than tactful and somewhat annoying.


I agree, and have tried not to do it. However, for some members there seems to be no other way. True that if you do search the internet, you can find the reliable trustworthy sites.. but it comes down to just not knowing if they are reliable or trust worthy..

It's a very risky, costly adventure that you have to go on alone if there is no willingness in information being shared. It's easier to just not do it than to get burned multiple times. The idea of a "Do Not Buy From" list is a good one, and can held weed out bad retailers without "naming" good ones.. but ultimately it leads to the same end.

There's been a lot of great ideas thrown around, though. Some of them do require "change," but as Sean said..some don't. Just initiative from members with knowledge who want to share, or with those who want the knowledge and are willing to ask.


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## Rock31 (Sep 30, 2010)

asmartbull said:


> Valid points.....but most of the other forums are invite only or very small in membership.....most public forums limit the discussion of sources. A simply white and black list would work.
> I could also support a 90 day 100 post to get into the CC section, with a 30 day wait before opening a wts/wtb/wtt/group buy...ect


You're right and perhaps I got a bit carried away in some of my posts, I did not mean to offend anyone.


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## bpegler (Mar 30, 2006)

The problem I have seen with discussing sources is that some members start accusing legitimate vendors of selling fakes because the wrappers are the wrong color, or the cigars taste funny, etc.

I imagine some sources don't care to be mentioned, but some most certainly do. If you mentioned them in a public forum, and they discovered this, you would never buy from them again. Period.

Trades are a different matter, but we will eventually get hucksters selling fakes if we allow sales of Havanas. Happens constantly on those public sites it is allowed.


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## MDSPHOTO (Sep 10, 2013)

TonyBrooklyn said:


> Even just a Black list would work IMHO.
> Sorta like watching kids grow up.
> You tell them what not to do the rest they learn on their own.
> In this way they blossom instead of becoming robots.


I like TB's idea of having a black list, that would narrow down the pool to purchase from without openly posting vendors names. Picking the wrong vendor is personally my biggest fear in purchasing CCs and why I have relied on others with "Trusted Sources" to help me explore this side of the ocean.

I know I'm a newb to this section and have not spent much time here, but it appears to be similar to other boards I'm been a part of. I obviously have not found the boards where there is open discussion about CCs and sources. While I would like a little less mystery around CCs here, I also don't want to see everyone telling their buddies "hey if you want CCs just join Puff and make 100 "+1" posts wait 90-days and you'll have open access to everything CC." Don't forget most of us found Puff while researching something related to cigars, if this CC section blows up, the site may get a lot more attention for all the wrong reasons.


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## Tobias Lutz (Feb 18, 2013)

Rock31 said:


> Why is it pushing it? A simple google search of "I want to but Cuban Cigars" returns many of the vendors that people use on a daily basis. This is not as open as some of the other forums, Puff requires x number of posts, x numbers of days as a member, other sites give you access on Day 1 to vendor lists and light discussion of them.


Bob's point is one of the main things I was thinking of. I also think there is a big difference between a vendor placing chosen testamonials on their own site (which few do in my limited experience), and allowing their names to be associated with the supposed experience of every Tom, Dick, and Harry on a forum. That said, I 1) have neevr been a member of other sites, so I can't say I've seen how things work or do not work elsewhere, and 2) I trust the powers that be to make good decisions regarding how the forum is run- if they decide to allow open discussion of vendors, it isn't like I'll pack up my toys and go home- you can't get rid of me that easily :biggrin:


bpegler said:


> The problem I have seen with discussing sources is that some members start accusing legitimate vendors of selling fakes because the wrappers are the wrong color, or the cigars taste funny, etc.


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## JustinThyme (Jun 17, 2013)

I think at least a black list would be a great start. The two vendors I was pointed to were easily found with a web search but so are all the rip offs. I wasnt about to send my hard earned dough on a trip with no return or get fakes. I waited until I could get someone to vouch for them. As for the vendors not wanting their site spoken about on forums, sorry but that's hogwash. One of the largest and well known vendors posts this in their FAQ section.

"Yes we guarantee that our cigars are 100 % authentic. We always recommend that new buyers speak to a few of the members on some of the well known cigars forums. Ask them about our operation, reputation and the authenticity of the cigars we sell. We suggest that you make your purchase only once you are totally assured that you have nothing to worry about."


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## bpegler (Mar 30, 2006)

JustinThyme said:


> I think at least a black list would be a great start. The two vendors I was pointed to were easily found with a web search but so are all the rip offs. I wasnt about to send my hard earned dough on a trip with no return or get fakes. I waited until I could get someone to vouch for them. As for the vendors not wanting their site spoken about on forums, sorry but that's hogwash. One of the largest and well known vendors posts this in their FAQ section.
> 
> "Yes we guarantee that our cigars are 100 % authentic. We always recommend that new buyers speak to a few of the members on some of the well known cigars forums. Ask them about our operation, reputation and the authenticity of the cigars we sell. We suggest that you make your purchase only once you are totally assured that you have nothing to worry about."


If you believe it is hogwash, there are some vendors you will never know about...


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## bpegler (Mar 30, 2006)

And this, of course, is the problem about discussing vendors. Folks with limited experience don't even know they don't know...

Even on private boards, some vendors don't get mentioned.


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## Drez_ (Jan 30, 2014)

I think there is a slight misunderstanding with that quote. Speaking to members on well known cigar forums asking for an opinion of a site YOU found and are inquiring about, and openly posting links to said site are different things entirely. Much as suggested and talked about here, if I were going to personally inquire about a site in that manner I would do it via PM with someone I'm somewhat familiar with..not just randomly PM one of you that I don't have much history with. IMO only, though.


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## JCubed (Mar 5, 2014)

bpegler said:


> And this, of course, is the problem about discussing vendors. Folks with limited experience don't even know they don't know...
> 
> Even on private boards, some vendors don't get mentioned.


This is the problem I've been seeing; it goes both ways. Folks' experience remains limited because vendors, as well as other facets, don't get mentioned.

While I don't disagree that manners and relationships go a long way, not just on this forum, it's obvious that building many personal relationships to gain information and make informed decisions isn't some people's cup of tea, and probably seems to them like it's more trouble than it's worth. Hence, a semi-stagnant CC section.

I am in no way one of the guys that feels like it's not worth the time. I can just see how some would. Like wanting to ask someone for directions, but before you do, you have to take them to dinner first. Just a barrier to entry that some won't invest in.


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## Myrddwn (Jun 16, 2013)

Honestly, there's not much many of us new/young members can offer here in the Habanos section. I have more questions than opinions, and most of those I try to answer by searching and reading previous posts. The main thing I'd like to see isn't really allowed-more open discussion on how to find vendors. But I understand the restrictions, and so I bide my time. I learn a lot through observation, watching, reading other people's posts, so this forum is helpful to me; but as I've never purchased or smoked a CC, I have little to offer besides the occasional comment mostly intended to establish my credibility.


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## pmr1010 (Jul 13, 2013)

The Black List is a good idea, the WTS/WTB and a trade thread is good I think. I like my vendor and have never doubted their product ever. But others have raised a good point about people not understanding the difference between CC and NC cigars. I've had specifically PSDN4 cigars that in one box were all much lighter in color than in another box. Someone new to the brand might think they're fake because every single AB Black Market or Padron 1926 Maduro was nearly identical to every other one they'd ever seen. Then questions arise. Several people I've spoken to have had no prior knowledge of the importance of age and temp and rh to a CC. That's not a problem in and of itself, but what it can do to a persons trust if they smoke a CC shipped at 74% rh or stored at a high temp and wonder why it tasted so different than a 6 year old CC kept in perfect conditions its entire life. To a person new to this side of the hobby it could mean "FAKE!" When in essence it was just stored wrong at some point. 

Hell, I've gotten cigars that from day 1 in my possession it was stored just like every other CC I've got but at some point it was stored hot and humid by the vendor and it developed mold back then. Many hands are involved with us getting them and it could be that which makes a person think they got had or sold fakes.


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## egoo33 (Jul 21, 2013)

If there isn't more of an open form of communication most of the posts on this side will be checking to see if a person bought fakes


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## pmr1010 (Jul 13, 2013)

egoo33 said:


> If there isn't more of an open form of communication most of the posts on this side will be checking to see if a person bought fakes


I agree 100% They already seem to happen pretty frequently.


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## brimy623 (May 25, 2013)

In a little over 24hrs there has been a lot of discussion and opinions and a heck of a lot of views!

Only seen one mod chime in. It would be nice to hear more from "the powers that be"!

I at least hope they are talking among themselves about where this will go.


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## Rock31 (Sep 30, 2010)

brimy623 said:


> In a little over 24hrs there has been a lot of discussion and opinions and a heck of a lot of views!
> 
> Only seen one mod chime in. It would be nice to hear more from "the powers that be"!
> 
> I at least hope they are talking among themselves about where this will go.


I am and will be in communication with them, just keep tossing ideas, pros and cons around.

Do not fear mods overlooking this topic ipe:


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## tnlawyer (Jul 17, 2013)

How about maybe upping the time/post count requirements or adding some trade or RG requirements? Might make some of the more seasoned guys feel more comfortable instead of some of them just crowing that they know a secret and they'll never tell.

Also like the WTS/WTB idea that a few of the guys have mentioned.


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## egoo33 (Jul 21, 2013)

If there isn't going to be a blacklist/whitelist can we link to other sites that have it I'm pretty sure most of us know a certain review site that had vendor ratings


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## brimy623 (May 25, 2013)

Rock31 said:


> I am and will be in communication with them, just keep tossing ideas, pros and cons around.
> 
> Do not fear mods overlooking this topic ipe:


Good to know that they are communicating on the topic & not just "watching"!

Because without them, there's no chance for change.

Thanks for spearheading this topic!


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## The invisible man (Dec 18, 2012)

Well, openly discussing vendors is a bad idea as already stated.

Wts/wtt section would be great until the scammers start showing up with fakes and ruin it.

So even though these two things would make the forum much more active I don't know if it would make it better in the long run.

The puff Habanos section is mostly filled with lurkers and newbs like myself trying to figure out what's good and what to buy buy, accompanied by a handful of experienced members who graciously bear the burden of answering all of are questions.
Not saying this is a bad thing but it is what it is.

I think this forum would be better if some of the more experienced members out there were more active by starting threads, posting more etc..

More Habanos reviews would be cool.

More people showing pics of there purchases, and maybe a show me your Habanos stash thread.

Just my opinion, just some ideas.


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## Perfecto Dave (Nov 24, 2009)

Lots of good points and suggestions......hate to be a kill joy but don't forget that we are dealing with something that is illegal to own have and/or hold in ole US of A.
I don't see it possible to "openly" talk about or hand out information on where to buy or who is good or who is bad without some type of repercussion down the road. Make friends and talk privately is the only way I can see it.
Replace CC cigars with say....crack cocaine. Also illegal in the USA. You are not openly going to talk about sources, vendors, supply lines with that either. Some will say...two totally different subjects or discussions! Is it? I'm not so sure they are that far apart according to our laws.
Anyway....don't want to cause a ruckus but remember it is illegal. Personally, and call it paranoid if you like, I don't want my illegal business out there in front of the world for all to see.
That is...if I were to ever do anything illegal in this great country of ours.


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## dvickery (Jan 1, 2000)

man ... did this thread go south in a hurry .

went from " what can we do to improve the habanos sub forum??" to ... pages and pages of "should we or should we not reveal sources (semi) publicly ??? " .

all i can say is ... got an idea how to improve "habanos-discussion" ... post it here .
want sources revealed ... start another thread . 

derrek


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## JCubed (Mar 5, 2014)

dvickery said:


> man ... did this thread go south in a hurry .
> 
> went from " what can we do to improve the habanos sub forum??" to ... pages and pages of "should we or should we not reveal sources (semi) publicly ??? " .
> 
> ...


I think most of the guys mentioning vendor (semi-)transparency are saying that that's their input for improving this section. They aren't mutually exclusive.


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## ShaneG (Apr 9, 2014)

Ok, so a wtb/wtt trade section would be hard to maintain, and require higher degree of scrutiny than the NC side, but that's not a bad thing- perhaps have some requirement to post in a "I have too many" sub forum that people could then PM you regarding. It's not sales per say, and while the possibility exists to be scammed there are more than a few members here with five digit RG and post counts that I would feel comfortable purchasing from. Also needs to be a way to perform a box split- this is my favorite way to try new things, and gives the ability to have a few, age a few and send some to a friend. 

I guess ultimately, what it comes down to personally for the OPs question is to discuss CC more I need to have CC more to have something to say. Until an avenue exists for this to happen this sub forum will remain slow.


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## magoo6541 (Mar 9, 2014)

OnePyroTec said:


> To say brand X forum allows it, so PUFF should to is just childish. PUFF has rules, period. No one is stopping anyone from using other forums if you don't like the rules here. When my kids to go to a friends house, I expect them to play by those parents rules. This is PUFF's house, & PUFF's rules.
> 
> The easiest thing to do is get "your" vendors who don't care, and start your own forum that is free of any rules you don't wish to follow. That will make everyone happy.


Hold on now... Rock31 asked for Tobis to expound on his thoughts so he could better understand his position on the matter at hand. Rock31 even gave an example of an other website that is open to anyone to use and specifically deals with vendors. If it's the same site I'm thinking of, venders even pay to advertise on that site.

So things aren't mixed up here... 
1. I stated my opinion of what I thought would improve the site
1. You countered my opinion the statement of "vendors don't want their name in the open" without any other supporting ideas or facts. 
2. Rock31 countered your statement with an example... with facts... that disproves your statement to some degree.
3. You respond back with the "that's childish. There's the door and go start your own site" post that's quoted above.

I think that's right. So, who's the childish one again?

I think everyone understands that Puff.com operates by rules. Everyone also understands that we are to play by the rules, otherwise we can leave. Rock31 started this thread AFTER TALKING to some moderators and is simply looking for others input. Rules can be changed after all.

Sorry if I'm derailing this thread. I was trying to catch up on the thread and this caught my eye and I felt like this needed addressing.


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## Drez_ (Jan 30, 2014)

ShaneG said:


> Ok, so a wtb/wtt trade section would be hard to maintain, and require higher degree of scrutiny than the NC side, but that's not a bad thing- perhaps have some requirement to post in a "I have too many" sub forum that people could then PM you regarding. It's not sales per say, and while the possibility exists to be scammed there are more than a few members here with five digit RG and post counts that I would feel comfortable purchasing from. Also needs to be a way to perform a box split- this is my favorite way to try new things, and gives the ability to have a few, age a few and send some to a friend.


In terms of that, it really wouldn't be harder to maintain. You have to have an understanding of who you are dealing with in ANY interaction on this board. Many of us are familiar with others from activities, posts and general interaction on a daily basis. If I don't feel comfortable buying a product..be it a CC or a NC from someone, I will not buy it. If I feel I am at risk to be scammed in a trade or purchase, I will not go forward with it. Granted, there are ALWAYS going to be instances of someone getting wronged occasionally in this type of situation. You are dealing with individuals on a person-to-person interaction, not a retail setting where they want customers to return. You have to be your own personal judge in any deal you make on this or any forum relating to any topic.

If there is a member who is well established on the boards who posts saying they had some CC they were willing to make a trade on, then I would be willing to take the risk and go forward with the deal. If it were someone who seemed to post 100 posts in the NC section over 90 days, and then posted the same thing..I'd likely not do the deal unless I had come to know them through conversations and other dealings. You have complete control, and in the same sense responsibility, on who you do dealings with.


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## Rock31 (Sep 30, 2010)

I understand this is a sketchy subject so there are going to be many different opinions but let's keep this on track.

We are all here on Puff for one reason or another, this thread is an attempt to gather ideas, suggestions to try and expand the Habanos section.

In the end ideas will be discussed between Mods/Admin and some may get worked in, some may not but at least they will have an idea what their members are looking for in this section.

Thanks for all the ideas and input, keep them coming.


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## JCubed (Mar 5, 2014)

I appreciate you starting the conversation, @Rock31. RG to you when I have some to spend.


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## JustTroItIn (Jan 12, 2014)

I like the WTB/WTS suggestion.

Regarding the vendors, would be nice if it were not so hush hush. While I didn't find it difficult to find a vendor I was "pretty sure" was legit (and turned out to be) I know there are probably better vendors out there I know nothing about.

As a noob it is also difficult to build a comradery with the CC FOGs because we have nothing or very little to contribute. Sure we are all BOTL, but if you have only ever tried 3 different CC's and have to buy an entire box of something to sample more, then it's a slow process.

It was nice to read a thread a few weeks ago where someone wanted to by XYZ ISOM and named the price they had found. They were quickly told that price was way higher than the norm and were at least given an average.


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## havanajohn (Apr 4, 2009)

Ray (Rock31), you really ignited a firestorm with this thread.


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## jeffmn (Mar 20, 2013)

The part i get stuck on when thinking of this vendor topic is that the internet is world wide. There are members on here that are not in the us of a. Could there be talk of reputable vendors without discussion of do they ship to X? Let the user find that themselves on the vendors website.


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## maverickmage (Feb 10, 2008)

Perfecto Dave said:


> Replace CC cigars with say....crack cocaine. Also illegal in the USA. You are not openly going to talk about sources, vendors, supply lines with that either. Some will say...two totally different subjects or discussions! Is it? I'm not so sure they are that far apart according to our laws.


Ah yes, I was wondering when the cocaine analogy was going to pop up. Completely different examples, completely different penalties, completely different jurisdictions. Sorry, but comparing it cocaine is only done for the shock effect. Not sure when the last time someone was jailed for being in possession of Cuban cigars. How about something more comparable like moonshine? Which is also illegal.


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## tnlawyer (Jul 17, 2013)

maverickmage said:


> Ah yes, I was wondering when the cocaine analogy was going to pop up. Completely different examples, completely different penalties, completely different jurisdictions. Sorry, but comparing it cocaine is only done for the shock effect. Not sure when the last time someone was jailed for being in possession of Cuban cigars. How about something more comparable like moonshine? Which is also illegal.


Agree. Stupid analogy and definitely not apples to apples.


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## c.ortiz108 (Nov 16, 2013)

ShaneG said:


> There aught to be a NST of sorts for habanos, because then people could try more things. Or even a paid sampler if the ftp was not into NC cigars at all. The entry to CCs is fraught with danger and uncertainty things are harder to access and can only be purchased by the box- it's easy to get into cigars, you walk into your local tobacconist and buy something, pay a little too much and then develop your tastes like that- cc is not so accessible. I think a lot of people, myself included would be interested in participating this way, but it is against the forum rules so we can't have this outside of PMs, and if you pm someone proposing this you just look like a mooch or a trap, and you can't just expect senior members to send PMs invitjng everyone.
> 
> 
> > Pretty much says it all (though I haven't read the whole thread yet). It's all kind of intimidating - the legality, having no clue about many marcas, not wanting to seem like a mooch etc. Plus the sometimes hard-ass response when someone mentions CCs in NC threads, or god forbid includes images of them. I'd like to see that rule relaxed a bit, then venturing into CCs will seem like less of a strict barrier to cross at your peril!


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## Rock31 (Sep 30, 2010)

havanajohn said:


> Ray (Rock31), you really ignited a firestorm with this thread.


you guys let me stick around this long it was bound to happen.


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## OnePyroTec (Dec 11, 1997)

magoo6541 said:


> Hold on now... Rock31 asked for Tobis to expound on his thoughts so he could better understand his position on the matter at hand. Rock31 even gave an example of an other website that is open to anyone to use and specifically deals with vendors. If it's the same site I'm thinking of, venders even pay to advertise on that site.
> 
> So things aren't mixed up here...
> 1. I stated my opinion of what I thought would improve the site
> ...


It isn't my opinion some vendors don't want their names tossed out in the open. If they all did, they would ALL advertise on every forum they could. They don't. For the ones who do, great, good for you. With the shop owners I have used since before this site was founded, ALL do not with for the extra headaches since they do a fine business as it is now.

YES, it is childish to tell the mods & owners of a forum that I can say what I want "over there" so I am entitled to say what I want HERE no matter what your rules are. That is why I say spend YOUR own money running a website then you can say anything you want to say and no one can stop you. If you can't understand that, it is hopeless.

So please do try harder to explain how it is childish to follow the rules set forth by the owners of the forum and enforced by the moderators and it is NOT childish to through a temper tantrum because you don't understand why you can't get your way.


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## Perfecto Dave (Nov 24, 2009)

maverickmage said:


> Ah yes, I was wondering when the cocaine analogy was going to pop up. Completely different examples, completely different penalties, completely different jurisdictions. Sorry, but comparing it cocaine is only done for the shock effect. Not sure when the last time someone was jailed for being in possession of Cuban cigars. How about something more comparable like moonshine? Which is also illegal.


I wondered how long it would take also. I wasn't comparing the two other than using the fact that they are both illegal. Such as is your moonshine also if not properly licensed.
That's all...wasn't saying one is worse than the other... or that you'll do jail time for one and not the other and the fine is bigger for one than other.......just they're both illegal. Don't forget it.


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## SeanTheEvans (Dec 13, 2013)

http://www.cigarforums.net/forums/v...over-edge-cc-nc-maw-member-participation.html

This DOES exist...


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## Rock31 (Sep 30, 2010)

SeanTheEvans said:


> http://www.cigarforums.net/forums/v...over-edge-cc-nc-maw-member-participation.html
> 
> This DOES exist...


yes it does, however it is not working in it's current format. it sits for months, then starts for a week or so then dies down again.

last post was July 8.

And this thread has went a bit sour at times which was not my intention, words are being twisted and arguments are starting.

The purpose was to gather some ideas, that was it. I want to see if there is room to improve this section, expand it a bit, I never made it as a thread to say 'Give me what I want or I am taking my ball and going home'

I never meant to say "if I can do it there I am doing it here" but I guess words on a screen can come off as meaning one thing when the person meant something else.


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## anthony d (May 10, 2014)

The MAW only helps those who already have cc's, and a lot of the issues arising seem to be with new blood acquiring them, and being able to contribute more to this section of the forum.


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## magoo6541 (Mar 9, 2014)

OnePyroTec said:


> It isn't my opinion some vendors don't want their names tossed out in the open. If they all did, they would ALL advertise on every forum they could. They don't. For the ones who do, great, good for you. With the shop owners I have used since before this site was founded, ALL do not with for the extra headaches since they do a fine business as it is now.
> 
> YES, it is childish to tell the mods & owners of a forum that I can say what I want "over there" so I am entitled to say what I want HERE no matter what your rules are. That is why I say spend YOUR own money running a website then you can say anything you want to say and no one can stop you. If you can't understand that, it is hopeless.
> 
> So please do try harder to explain how it is childish to follow the rules set forth by the owners of the forum and enforced by the moderators and it is NOT childish to through a temper tantrum because you don't understand why you can't get your way.


So here's my last comment on the subject because I don't want to ruin this thread and turn it into something it's not meant to be...

No body... NO BODY in this thread is telling a mod or owner of this site "I'm going to say what I want here just because we can talk about it over there". Maybe you can point out where that happened because I can't find it. Otherwise, you're putting words in our mouth and you're getting upset over your own miscomprehension. Again, as long as the rules are in place, I will follow them and have no intention to break them. I can absolutely assure you that Rock31 is not trying to skirt the rules either.

What IS happening is that we were asked for our opinion on what can be done to improve this site. The person who started this thread is working with mods to see what can be done. Generally, when you discuss such things, you normally give your thoughts and then support those thoughts with information and facts. That way, the other people who are reading can fully understand and comprehend your thoughts. You see, I truly want to understand your side. Rock wants to understand your side. When I can actually understand the points you're making, I can either counterpoint or maybe, you actually prove your point and I move to your side and support your idea. Rock31 simply asked for Tobis or you to expound on your thoughts... That's all.

As far as your last comment, please show where anyone has suggested not following the rules or where anyone is throwing a temper tantrum. Again, you're seeing things which are not there.

No hard feelings man. If those things are there and I'm not seeing it, you have my most sincere and heartfelt apologies.
Take Care


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## piperdown (Jul 19, 2009)

Gents,

Ray started this thread in good faith to ask what we could do to 'jump' start this section that up until a short while ago was quite active.
It's a solicitation of ideas, any ideas. We can all discuss, civilly, the pros and cons of each idea. Why? Because rules are not plascrete (SF reference, if you don't get it too bad). Good rules adapt to changing times. Some rules may be bent, other's that may be older get dusted off and reused. Again, why? Because of change.

So, what this thread should continue to strive towards is ideas, good or otherwise. So let's keep them coming.


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## egoo33 (Jul 21, 2013)

I'd love to be active in the MAW/PIF but @pmr1010 got hung out to dry and the one guy said who was going to hit him back totally flaked and hasn't been back to the site since.
It's really off putting sending something out with the hopes of getting to try something new only to have everything be DOA due to a lack of participation


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## OnePyroTec (Dec 11, 1997)

magoo6541 said:


> So here's my last comment on the subject because I don't want to ruin this thread and turn it into something it's not meant to be...
> 
> No body... NO BODY in this thread is telling a mod or owner of this site "I'm going to say what I want here just because we can talk about it over there". Maybe you can point out where that happened because I can't find it. Otherwise, you're putting words in our mouth and you're getting upset over your own miscomprehension. Again, as long as the rules are in place, I will follow them and have no intention to break them. I can absolutely assure you that Rock31 is not trying to skirt the rules either.
> 
> ...


No worries, no hard feelings. Going back and looking again, you are correct it isn't there. The post I was getting at was apparently changed during the edit time limit. So anyone who DIDN'T see it, would wonder where the hell I was coming from. Oh well, my fault for not taking a screen shot.


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## bpegler (Mar 30, 2006)

Even with the risk of fakes, the idea of trading and sales by members would drive volume and provide small sales to those wanting to get their toes wet. 

When the scumbags arrive, and they will, the mods will have to let us burn the witches.

That will provide some entertainment, trust me.


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## TonyBrooklyn (Jan 28, 2010)

Very good points here made by all. Just remember this old saying.
"For everything you gain in life you give something up"-Jim Rockford


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## Rock31 (Sep 30, 2010)

bpegler said:


> Even with the risk of fakes, the idea of trading and sales by members would drive volume and provide small sales to those wanting to get their toes wet.
> 
> When the scumbags arrive, and they will, the mods will have to let us burn the witches.
> 
> That will provide some entertainment, trust me.


I think we can get rid of the scumbags pretty quickly here, I don't see this section getting flooded with WTS.


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## bpegler (Mar 30, 2006)

Rock31 said:


> I think we can get rid of the scumbags pretty quickly here, I don't see this section getting flooded with WTS.


Other than the OLH zoo, I don't think there are any public forums that allow mention of prices for Havanas.

I think there would be more sales here than you might imagine.

But we could indeed get rid of the bad sellers quickly. And self police for gouging.


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## Merovius (Sep 11, 2013)

havanajohn said:


> Ray (Rock31), you really ignited a firestorm with this thread.


The discussion was much needed. I watched @pmr1010 sit around for 2 months waiting for someone to pick up his pass, only to be forced to pass to another BOTL in the end. Lame. Meanwhile passes in the NC section fly along. They get people active in trades, discover new sticks, allow them to build trust and ultimately long lasting friendships. Thats really the stuff that makes Puff great imo. Group buys and passes.



OnePyroTec said:


> Ryan, believe it or not, the vendors guarantee delivery don't want their names tossed around in open forums.


They are already listed on several websites, Cigar Inspector being one of the most popular.

You guys are hitting on the crux of the issue. Policy change is the only thing that will inject new life into this section. Once that happens, passes, reviews, trades etc. will all fall into place. Sounds simple in theory but actual policy is not. And some very valid points against WTS have been made. I do think that over time questions about authenticity will begin to whittle away at vendor rep. So for that reason I do like a lot of things about the current trusted, underground system of sharing sources.

Also, and I hesitate to say this because I have generally been treated very well here but attitude is everything and you will be judged by your ring gauge. Newbs come in, they see guys like Tony and Bull w/big numbers, high post count, old join dates and they say "Hey, here is a FoG that probably knows his stuff. Ill send him a pm and ask for help." Maybe Tony and Bull are bad examples because theyre actually incredibly helpful but some FoGs are a bit disenchanted with that process. And some members have already mentioned being blown off by FoGs.

I personally have not gotten the wham-bam-thank you ma'am treatment from a newb and all have been very grateful to receive direction. I will gladly answer questions about vendors, I have about 6 that I have used and trust. Maybe its because Im still pretty fresh here, maybe Ill get burned out over time but for now Im willing to answer and respond to PMs.

Which brings me to my suggestion. How about a list of members willing to answer questions about vendors? Newbs dont have to worry about the spammer hammer, and people could be added or removed as they like.

Just a thought.

Puff and its members have been absolutely awesome, this is where I cut my teeth and it will always be home. I only want to see it thrive.

I know this is a serious discussion but the overall vibe of the Habanos section can get a little stiff & tight collared from time to time, so here is a random meme. Hope it makes you smile.


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## Redwyvern (Aug 6, 2013)

As a newbie to this area of the forum, I just want to say that there have been some posts in this thread that sum up the point of how some of us new here feel. I started to quote, but decided against it, but the point is that the rudeness is very off-putting to someone new. I'm not thin skinned, so I don't care. I'm too old to have hurt feelings, but I'd rather keep my mouth shut, and just lurk and research rather than getting into it with a BOTL. That's not very brotherly. 

But I can't help to equate this to some of the old-timers in my Lodge. Their favorite saying is "we've always done it this way". The reality is that familiarity doesn't always equate to efficiency. 

I think that a possible way to reignite this section, and get more participation at least from the newer members would be to maybe have a lottery system where the more experienced members can maybe join together, and randomly PM a newbie with a trusted vendor to try. This would perhaps keep us posting in order to keep our names relevant in hopes of catching someone's eye. 

Personally, I haven't posted here in a while due to not having anything to add to any of the discussions except this one. It may be a stupid idea, I don't know. Lack of tobacco has clouded my mind!


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## egoo33 (Jul 21, 2013)

If actually using the vendors names will be strictly verboten could we use their first names, like Mr. R has this on sale this month while Guy B has this on sale and the Wizard of Oz has this daily special ?


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## ejgarnut (Sep 28, 2009)

I will just throw this out here..

Maybe this section is slowed because of the cc market being (for lack of a better word) stagnant. No new blends & vitola every week, no cc auction sites, no big marketing hypes etc...

sorry...i lost my train of thought on where i was going with this. Damn you Monk! (tv show)


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## anthony d (May 10, 2014)

Well, from a n00b point of view, this section has already started to improve thanks in part to a few people who have stepped up with help, advice, and generosity.


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## OnePyroTec (Dec 11, 1997)

Copy paste from another thread and woks for this one too:

Not all vendors want their names mentioned in forums. YES, it happens, but again, not all want it. I say this because I am friends with owners of several tobacco shops in Europe and I have been told in person, face to face, they don't care for the added advertisement of their business. To just start making lists without prior consent of the actual business owners because YOU THINK they won't mind is not really the best course of action.

NOW, if *"your"* vendor *WANTS* all the business in the world and does not care who knows what they sell and or where they ship, there is the one VERY SIMPLE fix that will keep everyone happy. Pick up the phone or send them an email and *ask them to JOIN PUFF.COM as a member*. They can list their own site URL in their OWN signature line AND they can sell & give specials in the RETAILERS forum.


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## OnePyroTec (Dec 11, 1997)

I would also add to this that the post count requirement should be lifted for the Habanos section for non-US citizens who can verify to the mods where they really live. Reaching the threshold for posting in this section for those who don't know many cigars other than Habanos could prove to be such a P.I.A. they won't bother.


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## Laynard (Oct 10, 2013)

Idea:

Habanos Lottery. Maybe just one stick from each participant sent to the winner, so noobs can play despite a limited collection.


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## anthony d (May 10, 2014)

Laynard said:


> Idea:
> 
> Habanos Lottery. Maybe just one stick from each participant sent to the winner, so noobs can play despite a limited collection.


I would love that!


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## pmr1010 (Jul 13, 2013)

That's a cool idea. Id be happy to donate something to that.


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## stltimmy1979 (Nov 1, 2013)

anthony d said:


> I would love that!


Great idea, I am in!


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## Redwyvern (Aug 6, 2013)

A chance to win sticks? CC or NC sounds like a great idea to me!


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## egoo33 (Jul 21, 2013)

i think this place has already gotten better


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## egoo33 (Jul 21, 2013)

tap a talk!


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## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

Laynard said:


> Idea:
> 
> Habanos Lottery. Maybe just one stick from each participant sent to the winner, so noobs can play despite a limited collection.


 Stay tuned!  :smoke:



egoo33 said:


> tap a talk!


Cannot and WILL NOT happen! Tapatalk is built for the exclusive benefit of Tapatalk. They harvest an extraordinary and prohibitive percentage of ad revenue and are notoriously shoddy at support.

Puff has been dedicated to the ideal that we will never charge, nor solicit, nor accept money from members to run the site. If you look at the overwhelming majority of sites using it, they invariably rely too heavily on member, "contributions", to run. That's just a road of ugliness we don't care to travel.

We've also seen a plethora of security concerns expressed, but in fairness, have yet to quantifiably verify them. We are aggressively pursuing a mobile solution, but the overwhelming consensus is that Tapatalk is NOT a viable choice.

Sadly, it's not as simple as just 'buy a plug-in". There are several software protocols to consider and they ALL have to get along and operate harmoniously together. We must always bear in mind that Puff, as forums go, is a leviathan. It's not your usual, "ran from my bedroom server", sort of place. With that enormity, come complications and certain restrictions in terms of what will actually work, as well as be a "fit" for the membership.

We are committed and determined to employ a mobile solution, beyond optimizing VB for the job (which it is), but it has to be the 'right' solution.


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## egoo33 (Jul 21, 2013)

Herf N Turf said:


> Stay tuned!  :smoke:
> 
> Cannot and WILL NOT happen! Tapatalk is built for the exclusive benefit of Tapatalk. They harvest an extraordinary and prohibitive percentage of ad revenue and are notoriously shoddy at support. We've also seen a plethora of security concerns expressed, but in fairness, have yet to quantifiably verify them. We are aggressively pursuing a mobile solution, but the overwhelming consensus is that Tapatalk is NOT a viable choice. Sadly, it's not as simple as just 'buy a plug-in". There are several software protocols to consider and they ALL have to get along and play together. We must always bear in mind that Puff, as forums go, is a leviathan. It's not your usual, "ran from my bedroom server", sort of place. With that enormity, comes complications and certain restrictions in terms of what will actually work, as well as be a "fit" for the membership.
> 
> We are committed and determined to employ a mobile solution, beyond optimizing VB for the job (which it is), but it has to be the 'right' solution.


While Tap a Talk might not fly, I will take whatever streamline mobile solution there is I feel that the system in place is becoming antiquated and becoming more and more cumbersome.


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## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

egoo33 said:


> While Tap a Talk might not fly, I will take whatever streamline mobile solution there is I feel that the system in place is becoming antiquated and becoming more and more cumbersome.


Honestly, I'm really just in the beginning stages of understanding why people feel it's "cumbersome". If you look at the site on a mobile device, it appears and functions precisely the same way it does on a desk/laptop device. It cannot, therefore, "begin", or "become" cumbersome. It can only become progressively less "convenient" as compared to emerging technologies. The trouble with "emerging technologies" though, has always been that they work brilliantly for very simple, "purpose associated" platforms, but lend themselves far less readily to complex, existing platforms.

Again and to be clear, this is not a "deal killer", in terms of implementing a mobile solution. It just means it's going to take time to _build _the right one to accommodate our technology, as opposed to forcing our technology to shoehorn into a lesser product.


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## egoo33 (Jul 21, 2013)

Herf N Turf said:


> Honestly, I'm really just in the beginning stages of understanding why people feel it's "cumbersome". If you look at the site on a mobile device, it appears and functions precisely the same way it does on a desk/laptop device. It cannot, therefore, "begin", or "become" cumbersome. It can only become progressively less "convenient" as compared to emerging technologies. The trouble with "emerging technologies" though, has always been that they work brilliantly for very simple, "purpose associated" platforms, but lend themselves far less readily to complex, existing platforms.
> 
> Again and to be clear, this is not a "deal killer", in terms of implementing a mobile solution. It just means it's going to take time to _build _the right one to accommodate our technology, as opposed to forcing our technology to shoehorn into a lesser product.


By cumbersome I don't mean so much the layout as much as practical applications. The stock image loader is useless so having to take a picture, upload it to imgur/photobucket etc and then having to post the link is more trouble then its worth, life would be much easier if there was something like tap a talk where you can take a picture from message reply it self.


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## pmr1010 (Jul 13, 2013)

Honestly one of the main reasons I don't post many pictures is because its a bit of a pain in the butt. Upload to another site first is not too hard but not quick if you have several pictures or want to write a review.


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## Redwyvern (Aug 6, 2013)

Ok to be honest, the site is very much cumbersome on a mobile platform, unless you're using a tablet. Many times I want to peruse, and possibly post while I'm enjoying a cigar, there is no way I can enjoy the site on my iphone. It is NOT formatted for mobile devices. Instead of flowing in a mobile format, I get the regular site miniaturized. I have to zoom in, and pan around. This is not the way an optimized mobile site works. Plus, there is something wrong with the login system when viewed on my phone. After 20 minutes of not being able to log in with my username and password, I gave up. Just to be sure, I logged in on my computer with 3 different browsers, and they all worked fine. I for one would love to see some changes made to this site so I can access it while I'm on the go.


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## egoo33 (Jul 21, 2013)

Redwyvern said:


> Ok to be honest, the site is very much cumbersome on a mobile platform, unless you're using a tablet. Many times I want to peruse, and possibly post while I'm enjoying a cigar, there is no way I can enjoy the site on my iphone. It is NOT formatted for mobile devices. Instead of flowing in a mobile format, I get the regular site miniaturized. I have to zoom in, and pan around. This is not the way an optimized mobile site works. Plus, there is something wrong with the login system when viewed on my phone. After 20 minutes of not being able to log in with my username and password, I gave up. Just to be sure, I logged in on my computer with 3 different browsers, and they all worked fine. I for one would love to see some changes made to this site so I can access it while I'm on the go.


either way ill continue liking your instagram posts


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## SeanTheEvans (Dec 13, 2013)

timestamps in chat


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## Booyaa (Nov 6, 2010)

Veering back on topic, the biggest issue is that it is still illegal to buy CCs as an American citizen. The potential problems for the site owners would be too great if there was open discussion on sources etc. The discussions are kept short and there is no reason for that, but it is like anything in life, once you experience the CC world more you will talk about it more. Perhaps those on here that do smoke a lot discuss them elsewhere as it is easier to do so on closed forums so you don't see the benefit of it on here.


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## Aithos (Jul 13, 2014)

> We've also seen a plethora of security concerns expressed, but in fairness, have yet to quantifiably verify them. We are aggressively pursuing a mobile solution, but the overwhelming consensus is that Tapatalk is NOT a viable choice.
> 
> Sadly, it's not as simple as just 'buy a plug-in". There are several software protocols to consider and they ALL have to get along and operate harmoniously together. We must always bear in mind that Puff, as forums go, is a leviathan. It's not your usual, "ran from my bedroom server", sort of place. With that enormity, come complications and certain restrictions in terms of what will actually work, as well as be a "fit" for the membership.
> 
> We are committed and determined to employ a mobile solution, beyond optimizing VB for the job (which it is), but it has to be the 'right' solution.





Herf N Turf said:


> Honestly, I'm really just in the beginning stages of understanding why people feel it's "cumbersome". If you look at the site on a mobile device, it appears and functions precisely the same way it does on a desk/laptop device. It cannot, therefore, "begin", or "become" cumbersome. It can only become progressively less "convenient" as compared to emerging technologies. The trouble with "emerging technologies" though, has always been that they work brilliantly for very simple, "purpose associated" platforms, but lend themselves far less readily to complex, existing platforms.
> 
> Again and to be clear, this is not a "deal killer", in terms of implementing a mobile solution. It just means it's going to take time to _build _the right one to accommodate our technology, as opposed to forcing our technology to shoehorn into a lesser product.


Mobile is honestly not much about optimizing code, unless you're running a smartphone that's really old (4+ years) then they are more than powerful enough to do anything you throw at it. I had no problem running Puff on my iPhone 4 (small for a smart phone), I just rotated into landscape mode and away I went. I don't consider a little bit of zoom to click links a problem, it's a 4" screen, you can't possibly get the same functionality and not have small buttons. Which brings me to the point of my post: mobile development is mostly about creating an intuitive interface that is flexible based on viewport size and still retains the "feel" of the full site. It's incredibly difficult, time consuming and requires someone very talented at graphic design to do that part of it...and then *also* someone capable of doing the software development.

I'm a software developer and I spent most of the last 4 years doing VB.net, ASP.net and Oracle primarily on web applications and while I could probably do the code and could tell you what is or isn't a good mobile interface I'm not even remotely qualified to create one. I've even done some design work on mobile games and I have an art background. I probably wouldn't be able to dedicate the time even if I was more capable with mobile design, but it's a tough ask when forums like this are usually projects of love and not money.



egoo33 said:


> By cumbersome I don't mean so much the layout as much as practical applications. The stock image loader is useless so having to take a picture, upload it to imgur/photobucket etc and then having to post the link is more trouble then its worth, life would be much easier if there was something like tap a talk where you can take a picture from message reply it self.


You're right, that isn't so much a function of the interface, but do you understand why it is set up that way? I can tell you, it's pretty simple: storage costs a *TON* of money. There is a limit on how much you can upload for images to Puff for a reason, think of how many pictures there are located in threads on this forums for the last year. Now think of the last 3, 5, however many years the site has been running. You can't delete those pictures because someone might hit that thread on Google, or someone might want to look at them later for posterity and nothing is more annoying that a whole thread of "broken image". If you *do* delete them, then what is a reasonable timeframe? I'm constantly browsing threads here that I found on Google from 2008-2010, so you set it at 5 years and suddenly a bunch of useful wineador pictures are gone from that massive thread of "post your wineador".

It's much easier from a cost perspective to let imgur or photobucket another host pick up the tab and just store a link that's so small it might as well not cost anything...

As a side note: if you're using Safari stop using it and download Chrome. Safari sucks and could be causing the login problems @Redwyvern is having, but make sure you keep Chrome fairly up to date (they'll bug you with popups) and it should be good. Chrome doesn't have as many "quirks" with css and applying the web standards as Safari, I have had no problems with these forums on either of my iPhones (4 and now 6) using Chrome.


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## Redwyvern (Aug 6, 2013)

Aithos said:


> As a side note: if you're using Safari stop using it and download Chrome. Safari sucks and could be causing the login problems @Redwyvern is having, but make sure you keep Chrome fairly up to date (they'll bug you with popups) and it should be good. Chrome doesn't have as many "quirks" with css and applying the web standards as Safari, I have had no problems with these forums on either of my iPhones (4 and now 6) using Chrome.


Thanks for that, I downloaded Chrome on my 4S and no more login problems. In fact, I'm replying from mobile now! I still don't like the small screen, but major problem solved! RG to you!


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## Aithos (Jul 13, 2014)

Redwyvern said:


> Thanks for that, I downloaded Chrome on my 4S and no more login problems. In fact, I'm replying from mobile now! I still don't like the small screen, but major problem solved! RG to you!


You're welcome, a lot of times it's the little things we don't think of that trip us up and I've had similar issues with Safari in the past so when you said iPhone I took an educated guess . I'm glad it worked for you though, that kind of thing can be pretty frustrating. One of the game forums I frequent is constantly logging me out even on chrome and it gets annoying because they have multi-factor authentication so I have to open the app on my phone, memorize the key real quick and enter it before it expires. It's infuriating but it's because of bad session management and the "remember me" function doesn't work at all because my phones IP changes frequently.


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## pmr1010 (Jul 13, 2013)

Honestly, I believe this thread has made the site better. *WE* are getting what we think out into the view of others and are finding similar feelings from others. We are also finding that there are still a lot of great members here and some terrific new members too.

I'm a rotten old curmudgeon and am the first to bitch and gripe about things but I'm finding it harder to complain these days. I think others feel the same.


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## egoo33 (Jul 21, 2013)

@Aithos it may not be cost efficient for Puff but without a tap a talk like application posting pictures is not fun and honestly a pain, I would gladly support a donation based system here to get rid of the Macanudo ads I see on my ipad as well as having a less clunky interface and feel that most people would do the same but feel that will never come to pass


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## john_007 (Nov 4, 2011)

So I have not read through the whole thread but it is very clear people think things need to change. I agree, this site is very dated has not changed since i joined 3 years ago. but this site still generates a ton of traffic, just not for habanos. Me personally ever since i took the plunge I haven't smoked a NC. No joke not a single one for over 2 years, so i only come here for the habanos section. This section is going to die if not already dead, I remember so many members who were amazing and so active on this side, always helping with suggestions and posting and just very active, and they left. They didn't just give up then internet or burn there computers they went elsewhere. I know cuz I have been there too. I don't post here much anymore cuz it was so dead for a long time, I got board and didn't log on. that's not because i need a site with vendors, or a fancy layout, or trades, ect. I need a site where I can talk to other people about the one main hobby I have left in my adult life. I do not mean to take away from the amazing brothers and sisters here you guys are all great but 20 people cant keep things interesting 7 days a week. i dont know what the answer is but I would love to talk open about all things Cuban Cigars!! That may not work here and that is fine but there are so many great things about this community i will never find anywhere else, and i will always come back. Because Puff is my home, but it is definitly time to adapt, Because trade a [email protected]#ing FUN! and we need more fun on the dark side.


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## pmr1010 (Jul 13, 2013)

I agreed with the above completely this past summer. But I have been surprised to see new blood coming in and honestly the new batch of guys is pretty great! I've had the pleasure of being in contact with several of them on and off the site and was really excited that the newer folks had such a bright outlook for this site. 

I'm hopeful that this trend will continue.


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## pmr1010 (Jul 13, 2013)

But truthfully, the PIF thread has hit a f***ing wall. There is no reason that @Heath is now the poor bastard that tried to be generous only to be left in the cold for over a month. No excuse for this.

He's a really good guy and no one that sends out cigars in an act of Paying It Forward should be ignored for so long.

This is something that should most certainly change.


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## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

john_007 said:


> So I have not read through the whole thread but it is very clear people think things need to change. I agree, this site is very dated has not changed since i joined 3 years ago. but this site still generates a ton of traffic, just not for habanos. Me personally ever since i took the plunge I haven't smoked a NC. No joke not a single one for over 2 years, so i only come here for the habanos section. This section is going to die if not already dead, I remember so many members who were amazing and so active on this side, always helping with suggestions and posting and just very active, and they left. They didn't just give up then internet or burn there computers they went elsewhere. I know cuz I have been there too. I don't post here much anymore cuz it was so dead for a long time, I got board and didn't log on. that's not because i need a site with vendors, or a fancy layout, or trades, ect. I need a site where I can talk to other people about the one main hobby I have left in my adult life. I do not mean to take away from the amazing brothers and sisters here you guys are all great but 20 people cant keep things interesting 7 days a week. i dont know what the answer is but I would love to talk open about all things Cuban Cigars!! That may not work here and that is fine but there are so many great things about this community i will never find anywhere else, and i will always come back. Because Puff is my home, but it is definitly time to adapt, Because trade a [email protected]#ing FUN! and we need more fun on the dark side.


You bring up an excellent point here, John, which amounts to nothing less than the 600 lb gorilla in the corner. Unless members get involved and START discussions, there's no activity and nothing gets talked about. I see way too many people sitting back and waiting for someone else to get something started, ask a question, begin a topic, etc, and then complain when no one does. Hello? YOU are the "someone"!


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## john_007 (Nov 4, 2011)

Herf N Turf said:


> You bring up an excellent point here, John, which amounts to nothing less than the 600 lb gorilla in the corner. Unless members get involved and START discussions, there's no activity and nothing gets talked about. I see way too many people sitting back and waiting for someone else to get something started, ask a question, begin a topic, etc, and then complain when no one does. Hello? YOU are the "someone"!


Yes members that want more activity should be more active. I am right there with you, I should post more, and will. That alone will not improve upon many of the things addressed in this thread.


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## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

john_007 said:


> Yes members that want more activity should be more active. I am right there with you, I should post more, and will. That alone will not improve upon many of the things addressed in this thread.


True, but if we're honest, members taking the initiative accounts for a solid 90%. We're seeing a LOT of new stuff happening, since these "call to arms" threads have sprung up. We've "relaxed" a lot of the Habanos restrictions, we've added a "New Puffer Fish Market", so newbs can share in the wealth even before they've reached the normally required milestones. We're aggressively searching for an acceptable mobile solution, while in the mean time having maximized vBulletin's mobile capability.

I have to take some minor-but-respectful issue with your previous assertion that "nothing's changed in the past xxx years". I don't know if you were around, but about 18 mos ago we did actually upgrade to the latest VB version and are looking at upgrading again. The problem there is, even VB advises _against _it at the moment. There are just too many bugs still lurking in the shadows. You have to remember that being as massive as Puff is, simply blindly pulling the trigger on the latest "beta this-n-that", while not a big deal for the little guy, could be the harbinger of disaster for a whale of this proportion. Point being, it's as current as it can reasonably and responsibly be, until VB gives us the green light that the newest version is stable.

About a year ago, we went through and reorganized the structure of the forum; adding lots of new areas, particularly in the Pipes section. Unlike the smaller tobacco hobbyist forums, there's a sub-forum here for virtually every other conceivable activity that would likely be of interest to the tobacco hobbyist and we're bouncing ideas for new ones around all the time. We're constantly adding new awards for members, based on their expressed interest. We're also discussing reinstating Chat back onto the forum main page. It had to be removed a couple years ago, due to abuse. We've since sufficiently abused the abusers, so hopefully this might work again.

There are also myriad items going on in the background, all the time. We are constantly looking for and addressing privacy concerns and have implemented a score of new security technologies in the past year. If I might be so bold, for a forum this size to have never had a single reported incident of being hacked, or otherwise violated, is a pretty amazing feat. If you're bored, have a look at the bottom of the main page where it says, "spam-o-matic" and see how many assaults we kill everyday, without anyone even being aware of a threat. :spy:

Puff remains the largest, most popular, most visited, most active forum of it's kind, but by resting on these laurels we had, admittedly, become somewhat complacent.

Aside from the mobile solution, I'm not sure what else there is we can do technically on an immediate basis. That said, we've re-committed to our mantra of maintaining Puff, "by the members and for the members", so if there's anything missing, don't hesitate to contact one of us with _your _solution(s).


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## HardHeaded (Nov 6, 2013)

I know its been stated before but I'll just say it again anyway. As someone with no cc knowledge or experience its impossible for me to do much of anything beyond lurk and attempt to learn. I can pick up quite a bit that way, but thats not necissarily true for a lot of members. 

I can only think of a few possible improvements. 

1. Some sort of pass or trade that in some way allows participation by those that don't already smoke habanos.

2. More open discussions on ways to get into the cc side of things without needing to buy a box outright, if thats possible from most vendors. (Having not devoted any real time to vendor research I dont even know if decent sampler type deals exist.)

3. More open box splits and sales. I know that for me at least having to go all in for a box makes cc cost prohibitive, especially with so many nc cigars that can be easily acquired.

Maybe all the new lines and vitolas of nc is part of why this section is slowing down. It's just far easier to dive into the legal cigar choices with ever expanding options than it is to have to do heavy research on not only what to smoke but how to best obtain it as well. These days most everyone wants things fast, easy and convenient. Espevially so for the younger generations.

I'm done rambling. Hopefully somewhere in there was a coherent contribution to this great forum and this discussion.


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## Herf N Turf (Dec 31, 2008)

HardHeaded said:


> I know its been stated before but I'll just say it again anyway. As someone with no cc knowledge or experience its impossible for me to do much of anything beyond lurk and attempt to learn. I can pick up quite a bit that way, but thats not necissarily true for a lot of members.
> 
> I can only think of a few possible improvements.
> 
> ...


1) You need to pay closer attention. We've just concluded the innaugural box split, which filled up in 2 hours. There are several other initiatives currently running and new ones all the time.

2) Once you begin doing your own research, you'll discover that nearly all vendors offer alternatives to full-box purchases. Nearly all offer five packs and some even offer singles. Just like NC, though, it's no where near the most cost-effective method of acquisition, but it does allow for sampling without getting all wet.

3) The more successful the initial efforts are, the more you're likely to see. Again, pay attention and when you see one pop up, don't hesitate to get involved. Particularly in the beginning, if you snooze, you're gonna lose.

You do make a valid point. Non-Cubans continually get better and better; offering better flavor and vastly more diversity. So much so, Habanos SA has been forced to up their game in many ways. From flash-freezing, to finally following through on their commitment to stop selling "green" cigars that require millennia to become even remotely enjoyable, they're actually aging prior to releasing. Cuban tobacco has also suffered a lot of other set-backs and challenges over the current generation. Several strains were wiped out by blight and spores. They lost scores of irreplaceable master torcederos to the burgeoning NC manufacturers, which ground has taken a decade to reclaim. Even now, when a guy gets "so good", he's eventually wooed away by the Dominicans, or central Americans. Money talks; even if it's pennies an hour. Cuba is still a $hitty place to live. All I have to do is offer you a flushing toilet, a car and available petrol and ensure your bank account won't be seized, pay for your move and I've gotcha.

While most will agree that Cuban cigars are still better -at least generally- they'll also have to agree that the gap narrows more and more everyday. I can't say enough about sheer diversity here. The fact is, for the most part, Cubans are a "one trick pony". They offer fantastic Cuban tobacco flavor, which cannot be matched by anything outside of Cuba. However, there are dozens of other flavors and profiles that Cuban tobacco simply cannot offer. So, for those who appreciate a broad palette of flavor, Cuba simply can't compete in that arena.


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## john_007 (Nov 4, 2011)

@Herfnturf Thank you for your response, there is so much I dont see and know about that goes into running this site. Thank you for your hard work.


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## HardHeaded (Nov 6, 2013)

Herf N Turf said:


> 1) You need to pay closer attention. We've just concluded the innaugural box split, which filled up in 2 hours. There are several other initiatives currently running and new ones all the time.
> 
> 2) Once you begin doing your own research, you'll discover that nearly all vendors offer alternatives to full-box purchases. Nearly all offer five packs and some even offer singles. Just like NC, though, it's no where near the most cost-effective method of acquisition, but it does allow for sampling without getting all wet.
> 
> ...


Yeah, really need to pay more attention and not post while half asleep. Reading my own post now I'm surprised anything came out of that. Sorry about that.


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## oleballcoachtn (Nov 20, 2013)

I have been a member of Puff for a little over a year now and just got to the 100 post milestone. Once I got to about 85 and could see the end in sight, I became a little more involved in posting and even started my first thread. I have read every single post of this thread and do genuinely believe there have been some good ideas thrown around to improve the overall site and this section. When you read the thread and you read where some do not agree with other's ideas, this is what America and free speech is about. If two people believe the same thing about everything, then one of you is useless. Integration and change is brought upon by people that did not agree with a certain way things are being done or an idea/rule that is in place. From someone that still feels like that he is on the "outside looking in," we are truly going in the right direction to make some valid improvements to the site and it's sections.

To the above statement on me increasing my participation when I got close to a milestone, I believe this theory is true in all facets of life. When you get close to something or are about to reach a goal or the finish line, you turn on that extra gear to get it done. The sprinter running through the finish line reaches for the tape to finish in first place. There could be more of a milestone-centered degree of participation where members have to meet certain time, post or both time and post requirements to be able to view or speak about some subjects or vendors. This would likely increase participation within the community.

Another thing that helped me to increase the confidence within myself to post more was a PM that was sent to me by @Herf N Turf where he read one of my posts about wanting to try a certain cigar. This post was from a few weeks to a month or more ago and he remembered the fact that I made that certain post. He had acquired that certain cigar and asked me if I still wanted to try the cigar. We struck a deal and the rest is history. Another point that I am getting at to help increase participation, the Mods or the elder members of the community could be allowed to help newer members within the realm of the CC world. We understand as it is now that this can happen within a PM setting, but not actually out in the open. An elder member of this community should have less restrictions than a newer, less established member. This theory coincides with what I just spoke about - more in depth milestone-centered participation levels. One simple PM by an elder member of this community helped me to gain the confidence needed to be a more active member of this community, let's take this and run with it.

Final point I would like to make that I have some conviction in because my profession is in coaching, is that followers will always take the personality of their leaders. The more the community sees the people in charge investing in the site and the conversation within the community, the more likely they are to follow and do the same. For the OP, @Rock31, to take the initiative to want thoughts and ideas on how to make this community better is a huge lift to the community in just the action itself. He is ultimately saying that he sees holes in the armor that need fixing and is willing to go out on a limb and show that he is ready and willing to make some adjustments to how the current system is at the moment. To everyone that posted on this page, you are also saying the same thing and that is why I believe that this community is on the rise. The mods are willing to hear our thoughts and we should keep them coming. When there are adjustments made to the current system, we should be happy to live within that system because we all had a say in the changes and had some good discussion while making the changes.


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## Merovius (Sep 11, 2013)

I retract my previous comments which were partially supportive of the current policy. Im now realizing, through experience, just how detrimental that policy is to this sections prosperity.


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## Aithos (Jul 13, 2014)

Merovius said:


> I retract my previous comments which were partially supportive of the current policy. Im now realizing, through experience, just how detrimental that policy is to this sections prosperity.


I don't see how the policy affects anything negatively at all. It is a safety measure and if you aren't finding ways to participate then you aren't really trying. I've seen several opportunities since I got access to this section and the WTS forum has had blind samplers and tag-alongs that new users may be interested in. The only real requirement is that you have positive feedback and be active (check the forums every day). You don't even have to post, just browse frequently.


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