# P&C Doubles Prices of Esoterica Bags



## JimInks (Nov 11, 2012)

I just went to P&C's site to check on their Esoterica bags in stock and was shocked to see the prices are now $49.95 a bag. That's double what they were last week. Nobody else I know has done this.


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## OnePyroTec (Dec 11, 1997)

At least no one else has doubled yet, give it time to see what will happens when everyone else puts _new_ stock up for sale. At least they are not at $100 like the dirtbags on fleabay or certain retailer who has a consignment section had it listed at $100 for a while.

MOST all P&C's Esoterica bags have been sold out for a while, but were available for back order at a cheap price (I should have got more than I did) Now it looks like they got new stock in...my guess would be that they had a price increase that they simply could not absorb. My wish/hope is they made a mistake in pricing.


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## MarkC (Jul 4, 2009)

Wow. They were still selling this stuff for $25 a bag? I'm impressed. Wish I could get any tobacco I smoke at that price.


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## JimInks (Nov 11, 2012)

I talked to one retailer this morning and they said there was NO price increase on Esoterica blends, and they are not raising their prices. I say buy elsewhere while you can.


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## OnePyroTec (Dec 11, 1997)

But did you call *Russ* and talk to him about why his prices went up? It is not uncommon for different suppliers to have different prices. Don't forget, they offer a price match when ever possible.


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## JimInks (Nov 11, 2012)

OnePyroTec said:


> But did you call *Russ* and talk to him about why his prices went up? It is not uncommon for different suppliers to have different prices. Don't forget, they offer a price match when ever possible.


No, I have not called Russ. You must remember that Russ doesn't set prices; he works there as a blender and does other misc. stuff, too. I've seen him go out of his way to correct problems there, but he's an employee, not in management. And Russ is a honest man from all that I have ever seen. I don't see him being a part of such a price increase. I hope he'll try to do something about this.

From what I'm being told, all U.S. retailers use the same distributor for Esoterica, and nobody else is paying more for it, so I disbelieve P&C's claim that the price went up.

Also, they don't always price match. A couple of times I asked for that, and was turned down.


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## Thirston (Feb 2, 2011)

Seems a bit excessive. Sorry to see this. Nudge to other retailers now.


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## MiamiMikePA (May 16, 2012)

Two words...Cigars International


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## OnePyroTec (Dec 11, 1997)

Jim, as you mentioned, Russ does go out of his way to get things taken care of, that is why I suggest talking with him. I do it often myself. A snippet from P&C's Price Match policy: "There are occasions our competitor may have been offered a pricing promotion that we weren't. If that's the case we may ask you to buy some on our behalf so we can enjoy the same discounts. Although the best price is always important, remember no one is going to work harder to ensure your satisfaction." They acknowledge they can't always be the lowest in all prices.

Things have changed a lot in the tobacco world since I was selling the stuff...granted 95% of my purchases/sales were cigars, I did go through a small amount of pipe tobacco too. I had 8 different outlets to purchase wholesale from. Some factory direct, some through the big box wholesalers. That is where I get prices may vary...It wasn't common, but did happen, where one place had wholesale price that was higher than what could be found retail by the time enough people took their piece of the pie. I'll take it as face value that everyone has the same Esoterica supplier in the U.S. I haven't checked and it really does not matter.

The price really isn't that bad when you weigh ounce per ounce dollar per dollar compared to MSRP of Drew Estates which is nowhere _near_ as good as Penzance. IMHO ALL Esoterica blends have been selling themselves short for a very long time. BUT, that is just my opinion. :kiss:


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## OnePyroTec (Dec 11, 1997)

MiamiMikePA said:


> Two words...Cigars International


When did Cigars International start carrying the Esoterica line? I've not seen it listed there.

Then again, that may be part of P&C's problem price wise in buying it if they have to get it second hand.


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## Commander Quan (May 6, 2003)

Wayne P&C was purchased by CI in April.


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## OnePyroTec (Dec 11, 1997)

Commander Quan said:


> Wayne P&C was purchased by CI in April.


I'm well aware of that, I thought MiamiMike as suggesting buy Esoterica from them. CI does not carry the brand, but P&C still does...then the light bulb went off as to a possible "why" P&C had a price increase that they could not absorb.


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## Commander Quan (May 6, 2003)

I think it had more to do with Mike's belief that CI is the devil incarnate.


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## MiamiMikePA (May 16, 2012)

Commander Quan said:


> I think it had more to do with Mike's belief that CI is the devil incarnate.


Hahaha...spot on! You know me very well Derrick. P&C is CI, the reason for the price increase is caused by CI purchasing them.


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## OnePyroTec (Dec 11, 1997)

Not a lot of respect for CI for me either. The no love lost with CI goes back to the days when I sold tobacco....I only use P&C now for pipe tobacco and when Russ leaves, I'm done. Good guy, good blender, & a mountain of information.


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## MiamiMikePA (May 16, 2012)

OnePyroTec said:


> Not a lot of respect for CI for me either. *The no love lost with CI goes back to the days when I sold tobacco*....I only use P&C now for pipe tobacco and when Russ leaves, I'm done. Good guy, good blender, & a mountain of information.


Same boat for me my friend...use to be a premium cigar rep and they were one of my accounts. Just to show I'm not against all major online tobacco retailers, Famous was also one of my accounts and I love them to death! The buyer still invites me every year to their Cigar BBQ with an offer to stay at his house. CI could sell Larry Roush pipes for $5 and I would buy from them...really want a Larry Roush pipe too! lol


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## JimInks (Nov 11, 2012)

Well, the worst part of it is that P&C claims the following:
"Thanks for contacting Pipes & Cigars. As you are certainly aware, Esoterica
tobacco is extremely difficult to obtain. The perpetual shortage of
Esoterica product has been forcing an increase in our cost for some time and
we could no longer maintain the old price. The new $49.95 price was chosen
to cover our increased costs and allow us a reasonable return on our
investment in time, effort, and money used to acquire it.

Let me know if you have any other questions I can help you with."

Nobody else is making this claim. Nobody else raised their prices. I doubt this will surprise most of you, but a friend from another pipe forum called Esoterica's distributor, and was told there was no price increase.


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## Tobias Lutz (Feb 18, 2013)

JimInks said:


> Well, the worst part of it is that P&C claims the following:
> "Thanks for contacting Pipes & Cigars. As you are certainly aware, Esoterica
> tobacco is extremely difficult to obtain. The perpetual shortage of
> Esoterica product has been forcing an increase in our cost for some time and
> ...


The one thing I would point out regarding their statement is they never say the price has gone up on Esoterica's end. They might be implying it, but they don't actually say it.


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## Commander Quan (May 6, 2003)

I really don't see what the problem is here. If you don't like the price increase don't buy it from them. 

I'm not sure if a 100% price increase was a good business move, but I'm not smart enough to operate a multimillion dollar tobacco enterprise either.


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## OnePyroTec (Dec 11, 1997)

Don't know for sure, don't really care, but if P&C has to get the blend second hand because they are owned by CI who does NOT carry the brand, then yes, their costs can go up. I would also guess they won't work at a loss just because a mob comes waving torches & pitchforks. Should we start bashing SmokingPipes for selling Plum Pudding for so much higher in price than P&C? NO...SmokingPipes has to buy it second hand, therefore their price is going to naturally be higher.

IF that one instance is going to keep you from buying from them, what can anyone do but shrug their shoulders.


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## freestoke (Feb 13, 2011)

It's a simple matter of place and time utility, as they say economics 201.







They maintain a stock of overpriced, highly desirable tobacco, accept fewer sales, but cash in when the other people run out. They wait until they are at the right place at the right time with the right product, so to speak. If some of it stays on the shelves too long, they have a "sale" and sell it at the regular price, but hopefully they will make more than by unloading a limited supply quickly at a cheaper price. If the supply were unlimited, it wouldn't make any sense -- but it is limited and there are "fans".


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## MarkC (Jul 4, 2009)

JimInks said:


> Nobody else raised their prices.


Does anyone else have it? If they are going to increase their prices, they won't do it until they have something to sell.


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## JimInks (Nov 11, 2012)

MarkC said:


> Does anyone else have it? If they are going to increase their prices, they won't do it until they have something to sell.


At the moment, no. Smoking Pipes had several blends and they sold out fast when it became known P&C raised their prices. I can say that 4Noggins is getting a shipment in, and there was no price increase from the distributor, so he's not raising his price. I only know that because I spoke to him earlier this afternoon. A friend of mine called Arango, who distributes Esoterica to the US, and they said there's been no price increase. I'm glad I stocked a lot of their blends for my cellar already.

I have noticed P&C has not sold out of any of the Esoterica blends since they raised the price, which is something I have never seen before.


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## MarkC (Jul 4, 2009)

Interesting. Well, it's certainly something to watch. Fortunately, I don't smoke any Esoterica blends, but that doesn't mean taking advantage of those who do won't affect my shopping habits...


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## madbricky (Mar 29, 2013)

Jim, Russ is now the senior manager of the P&C unit. I have been buying from them since they started on the Internet. Good selection of blending supplies and plenty of free samples.


JimInks said:


> No, I have not called Russ. You must remember that Russ doesn't set prices; he works there as a blender and does other misc. stuff, too. I've seen him go out of his way to correct problems there, but he's an employee, not in management. And Russ is a honest man from all that I have ever seen. I don't see him being a part of such a price increase. I hope he'll try to do something about this.
> 
> From what I'm being told, all U.S. retailers use the same distributor for Esoterica, and nobody else is paying more for it, so I disbelieve P&C's claim that the price went up.
> 
> Also, they don't always price match. A couple of times I asked for that, and was turned down.


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## JimInks (Nov 11, 2012)

madbricky said:


> Jim, Russ is now the senior manager of the P&C unit. I have been buying from them since they started on the Internet. Good selection of blending supplies and plenty of free samples.


Every encounter I've ever had with Russ has been a good one, and he's a good man. I've bought plenty from P&C, more than I've bought from any other company, and with one exception several months back that was resolved in my favor, I haven't had any problems. In fact, I have supported them time and again at several pipe sites along with my money. My problem here is their saying prices on Esoterica blends went up, when others say they have not. My original intent was to draw attention to this. I'll wait and see what Russ says about it.

Edit: If I had known Russ had the management position you mentioned, I would have contacted him privately first.


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## MiamiMikePA (May 16, 2012)

JimInks said:


> Every encounter I've ever had with Russ has been a good one, and he's a good man. I've bought plenty from P&C, more than I've bought from any other company, and with one exception several months back that was resolved in my favor, I haven't had any problems. In fact, I have supported them time and again at several pipe sites along with my money. *My problem here is their saying prices on Esoterica blends went up*, when others say they have not. My original intent was to draw attention to this. I'll wait and see what Russ says about it.
> 
> Edit: If I had known Russ had the management position you mentioned, I would have contacted him privately first.


Jim, I obviously don't support CI, but I fail to see where they said Esoterica raised their prices.


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## JimInks (Nov 11, 2012)

MiamiMikePA said:


> Jim, I obviously don't support CI, but I fail to see where they said Esoterica raised their prices.


This e-mail was sent to several people that I know of when they inquired as to the price change:

"Thanks for contacting Pipes & Cigars. As you are certainly aware, Esoterica
tobacco is extremely difficult to obtain. The perpetual shortage of
Esoterica product has been forcing an increase in our cost for some time and
we could no longer maintain the old price. The new $49.95 price was chosen
to cover our increased costs and allow us a reasonable return on our
investment in time, effort, and money used to acquire it.

Let me know if you have any other questions I can help you with."

As I indicated earlier, I talked to two vendors and a friend talked to the US distributor for Esoterica, and all said there was no price increase. I really like P&C, and Russ in particular, and have spent more money with them in the last couple of years than everybody else combined. I just felt this was not good. Yes, we can take our business where ever we choose in the free market system, and decide for ourselves the value of anything and everything we care to purchase. But in this hobby that I care quite deeply about, I feel this hurts what's been a very important company to a great many of us, and I was bothered by it enough to make this thread. Well, we'll all survive it one way or another down our respective avenues.


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## Tobias Lutz (Feb 18, 2013)

JimInks said:


> This e-mail was sent to several people that I know of when they inquired as to the price change:
> 
> "Thanks for contacting Pipes & Cigars. As you are certainly aware, Esoterica
> tobacco is extremely difficult to obtain. The perpetual shortage of
> ...


Again- "increased costs" does not equal "Esoterica raised their price". If you take it as an implication of such, that's your prerogative- but they never say that Esoterica jacked up the price.


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## OnePyroTec (Dec 11, 1997)

where does it state that they buy direct from Esoterica and not second hand since their parent company does not carry the line at all?


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## trenschler (Nov 18, 2012)

MarkC said:


> Interesting. Well, it's certainly something to watch. Fortunately, I don't smoke any Esoterica blends, but that doesn't mean taking advantage of those who do won't affect my shopping habits...


Have you tried Peacehaven?


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## MarkC (Jul 4, 2009)

No, only Stonehaven and Penzance.


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## MiamiMikePA (May 16, 2012)

A lot of the more "boutique" brands won't sell to CI. My guess is that they have to buy through secondary sources to acquire Esoterica products.


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## MarkC (Jul 4, 2009)

Just out of curiosity, what exactly is a 'boutique brand' in pipe tobacco? I understand the term in cigars, but when I've heard the term in pipe tobacco, I have no idea who is being referenced.


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## freestoke (Feb 13, 2011)

MarkC said:


> Just out of curiosity, what exactly is a 'boutique brand' in pipe tobacco? I understand the term in cigars, but when I've heard the term in pipe tobacco, I have no idea who is being referenced.


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## MarkC (Jul 4, 2009)

Hey, if it's a Virginia, I'll try it!


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## MarkC (Jul 4, 2009)

So, does anyone have a serious answer?


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## Nachman (Oct 16, 2010)

MarkC said:


> So, does anyone have a serious answer?


Peacehaven is a mild loosely pressed bright Virginia. Not a lot of depth and not highly recommended. I would smoke it if that is what I had, but would not buy it.


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## Tobias Lutz (Feb 18, 2013)

MarkC said:


> Just out of curiosity, what exactly is a 'boutique brand' in pipe tobacco? I understand the term in cigars, but when I've heard the term in pipe tobacco, I have no idea who is being referenced.


I think it is just a term given to smaller companies that aren't large enough/or interested in contracting out their blending and that generally don't offer a very exhaustive line of tobaccos. The thing that concerns me about the term (in regards to cigars or pipe tobacco) is sometimes people hear it and think it equates to better quality than what larger companies offer. Just because you're small batching something doesn't make it good. I dig some "boutique" companies, but some are just plain hype IMO. I think it is something that appeals to the desire in many for an "intimate" experience with a small business as opposed to General Cigar/Swedish Match/STG, the satans of the tobacco world, yadayadayada.


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## freestoke (Feb 13, 2011)

Tobias Lutz said:


> I think it is just a term given to smaller companies that aren't large enough/or interested in contracting out their blending and that generally don't offer a very exhaustive line of tobaccos. The thing that concerns me about the term (in regards to cigars or pipe tobacco) is sometimes people hear it and think it equates to better quality than what larger companies offer. Just because you're small batching something doesn't make it good. I dig some "boutique" companies, but some are just plain hype IMO. I think it is something that appeals to the desire in many for an "intimate" experience with a small business as opposed to General Cigar/Swedish Match/STG, the satans of the tobacco world, yadayadayada.


Would Boswell qualify? How about the "fancy named" stuff that Orlik puts out, say Davidoff, or would that be a pseudo-boutique? :lol:


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## MiamiMikePA (May 16, 2012)

Pretty much what Tobias said. Smaller companies who usually don't mass produce things. Because of this, they tend to be a little harder to get, esp. if there is any hype around the product. I don't know how big or small Esoterica is, but I tend to look upon them as a boutique brand since their stuff is much harder to get. I'm assuming they don't have the production of some of the bigger tobacco houses, but it could just be pure demand.

In the pipe tobacco world this is probably the only one I look at this way, as everything else is fairly easy to come by.

As far as cigars and CI is concerned, last I knew and this could have changed, Ashton, Fuente, La Flor, Illusione, & Tat do not sell directly to them. Again, this was years ago when I was in the business so it very well could be different now.


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## Commander Quan (May 6, 2003)

I think to be considered boutique it would need to be sold in house, or through limited retailers. 

I would call Boswell's boutique, although having talked to JM in person a couple of times I'm pretty sure he wouldn't call his blends that, Compton's would be another. H&H used to be before they started distribution through other sources.

If we go with the small company argument Samuel Gawith would have to be included since I think there are about 5 guys who do everything on equipment that's looks like machinery from from my grandmothers barn.


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## Tobias Lutz (Feb 18, 2013)

Commander Quan said:


> If we go with the small company argument Samuel Gawith would have to be included since I think there are about 5 guys who do everything on equipment that's looks like machinery from from my grandmothers barn.


Based on the videos I have seen of some C&D production, they're not too far off when it comes to a "rustic" production facility :biggrin: Damn good smokes though.


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## Commander Quan (May 6, 2003)

I don't know what your talking about. This look at these fully autonomous tobacco rubbing machines.


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## madbricky (Mar 29, 2013)

Ewwwww, what if they just walked through the bathroom and note those shoes are in the mix?


Commander Quan said:


> I don't know what your talking about. This look at these fully autonomous tobacco rubbing machines.


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## Nachman (Oct 16, 2010)

madbricky said:


> Ewwwww, what if they just walked through the bathroom and note those shoes are in the mix?


Tobacco is grown in dirt, fertilized by manure and dried in smelly old barns. The same can be said of almost everything we eat. Life is earnest. Life is real.


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## freestoke (Feb 13, 2011)

Nachman said:


> Tobacco is grown in dirt, fertilized by manure and dried in smelly old barns. The same can be said of almost everything we eat. Life is earnest. Life is real.


:rof:


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## madbricky (Mar 29, 2013)

I do my own blending and its a hell of lot more hygenic than that.


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## MiamiMikePA (May 16, 2012)

madbricky said:


> Ewwwww, what if they just walked through the bathroom and note those shoes are in the mix?


You are smoking it, not making love to it...I think. :noidea::hmm:


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## madbricky (Mar 29, 2013)

A wondering mind wants to know? I never kiss and tell.


MiamiMikePA said:


> You are smoking it, not making love to it...I think. :noidea::hmm:


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## MarkC (Jul 4, 2009)

MiamiMikePA said:


> ...as everything else is fairly easy to come by.


At the moment, yes. Shortages in pipe tobacco seem to come and go. Samuel Gawith was as hard to come by as any for a couple of years, for example. When I first picked up the pipe again, not that long ago, I could buy tins of Penzance, but couldn't get Escudo for love or money.


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## MarkC (Jul 4, 2009)

MiamiMikePA said:


> You are smoking it, not making love to it...I think. :noidea::hmm:


Depends on the blend...


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## MarkC (Jul 4, 2009)

Back on subject, I think I get what you guys are saying. Basically, it's a blender that I'm not going to bother with because scarcity doesn't appeal to me in consumable goods.


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## freestoke (Feb 13, 2011)

Commander Quan said:


> I think to be considered boutique it would need to be sold in house, or through limited retailers.
> 
> I would call Boswell's boutique, although having talked to JM in person a couple of times I'm pretty sure he wouldn't call his blends that, Compton's would be another. H&H used to be before they started distribution through other sources.
> 
> If we go with the small company argument Samuel Gawith would have to be included since I think there are about 5 guys *who do everything on equipment that's looks like machinery from from my grandmothers barn*.


:biglaugh:

I'm smoking a boutique blend now, Danny Kay Mix, from Kramer's Pipe and Tobacco.


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