# Vacuum Sealing



## landhoney (May 17, 2008)

Before you lash out at this noob who can't use the search function, I did - and found this: http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showthread.php?t=53778&highlight=vacuum
:r

I also found other threads that batted the 'theory' around, people who said they employed the method but no specifics on techniques or results. Please prove me wrong and point me in the right directions, but if the posts are older I'd like to hear peoples current ideas. The idea that varnished cabs and less airflow slows down aging but that the end result is better has been mentioned as well. Sealed airtight in a metal can seems very much like vacuum sealing to me, I am also interested in the above cigars. They must have been decent cigars to begin with(I'm not going to age White Owls), but apparently the were AMAZING aged. What happened? Ok cigars + vacuumed sealed + 45 years = Amazing? Good enough to turn down some amazing Dunhill?

Hope this is making sense. My Canadian evil twin is on his way to setting some stock away to mature, and wants to make sure he does it the best way possible. The vacuum sealing seems like the more 'set it and forget it' way, more than anything else, and is less easily opened.  I would really like those 'canned' sticks to be addressed though, what made them so good? Hopefully not just 'the good old days' when things were better.


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## Addiction (May 8, 2007)

landhoney said:


> Before you lash out at this noob who can't use the search function, I did - and found this: http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showthread.php?t=53778&highlight=vacuum
> :r
> 
> I also found other threads that batted the 'theory' around, people who said they employed the method but no specifics on techniques or results. Please prove me wrong and point me in the right directions, but if the posts are older I'd like to hear peoples current ideas. The idea that varnished cabs and less airflow slows down aging but that the end result is better has been mentioned as well. Sealed airtight in a metal can seems very much like vacuum sealing to me, I am also interested in the above cigars. They must have been decent cigars to begin with(*I'm not going to age White Owls*), but apparently the were AMAZING aged. What happened? Ok cigars + vacuumed sealed + 45 years = Amazing? Good enough to turn down some amazing Dunhill?
> ...


Once upon a time White Owls were made from Havana tobacco, in fact my mid 50s White Owls are quite good.

Anyway back on target. According to MRN and other sources, who take buying and aging QUITE seriously, there are benefits to be had from vacuum sealing. I just purchased a vacuum sealer to do my own. I also have heard that certain vendors, when they ship to you, all the boxes are vacuum sealed.


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## NCRadioMan (Feb 28, 2005)

landhoney said:


> less airflow slows down aging but that the end result is better has been mentioned as well.


That's it. :tu Less air flow = slow aging = better aging. I get a kick when I read about all these fans some use.



landhoney said:


> I would really like those 'canned' sticks to be addressed though, what made them so good? Hopefully not just 'the good old days' when things were better.


Age. Usually age will make the cigar "better". Over time the different tobaccos marry and produce wonderful flavors that can't be had in "new" tobacco. I also bet those particular cigars were pretty good when they were made, though.


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## SmokinApe (Jun 20, 2007)

Great thread... Here is my question; if reduced air is better why do some claim the cabnet is better then the dress box? I have seen posts where people recommend filling open space in dress boxes with bubble wrap, counter to the circulation a cab can provide....


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## NCRadioMan (Feb 28, 2005)

SmokinApe said:


> Great thread... Here is my question; if reduced air is better why do some claim the cabnet is better then the dress box? I have seen posts where people recommend filling open space in dress boxes with bubble wrap, counter to the circulation a cab can provide....


I'm thinking because the cab is all cedar and they seal much better than a dress box allowing less air flow. The only reason I fill in open space in a dress box is so the cigars don't roll around when I grab the box because I am not aging an open box. All the boxes I am aging are wrapped up, tight.

Here are few threads about cab vs. dress box:
http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21952&highlight=dress+box
http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11771&highlight=dress+box


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## Twill413 (Jul 19, 2006)

Besides what has been mentioned is the added benefit of fewer plugged cigars from a cab, at least that has been my experience. It would suck to sit on a dress box of cigars for 5 years and then half of them are plugged. Even IF half a cab is plugged which is highly unlikely, you still have a whole box of perfect cigars.


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## NCRadioMan (Feb 28, 2005)

Twill413 said:


> Besides what has been mentioned is the added benefit of fewer plugged cigars from a cab, at least that has been my experience. It would suck to sit on a dress box of cigars for 5 years and then half of them are plugged. Even IF half a cab is plugged which is highly unlikely, you still have a whole box of perfect cigars.


That's what a good draw poker is for. :tu


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## raisin (Dec 3, 2005)

This thread really should be titled "vacuum BAG sealing", because no one is recommending actually applying a vacuum to the cigars, just sealing them in a high quality/oxygen resistant bag.
The whole point is to eliminate the dilution factor of the cigar essense, caused by air transfer.


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## landhoney (May 17, 2008)

Well it seems like its a viable option, now my questions:
-Using a vacuum bag sealed bag, what are the exact methods (I assume you need to get the cigars and box to the proper RH and then bag them, but what else)?
- What about mold?
- Anything else I need to know? 
I want to bag these up, but a "DO NOT OPEN UNTIL 2030" sign on them and forget about them.


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## landhoney (May 17, 2008)

raisin said:


> because no one is recommending actually applying a vacuum to the cigars, just sealing them in a high quality/oxygen resistant bag.


You are if you use these: https://www.spacebag.com/spacebag
And I'm not talking about just sealing them in bag, but removing most of the air in the bag via one of the foodsaver type devices.


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## jkorp (Sep 27, 2007)

The vendors that are using vacuum sealed bags are not putting a full vacuum on the boxes. In other words the bags are not totally void of air.

I have heard from people, and it makes sense, that they trired vacuum sealing a box and it crushed the cigars with the negative pressure.

So it does make sense to seal them, be careful on the amount of vacuum you put a box under.

I'm currently not at the place where I age cigars, but if I were I think I would use a vaccum sealer and take just enough air out to pull the bag losely around the box.


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## vicvitola (Mar 18, 2008)

raisin said:


> because no one is recommending actually applying a vacuum to the cigars


Of course not, that would be silly :ss


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## germantown rob (Sep 19, 2005)

raisin said:


> This thread really should be titled "vacuum BAG sealing", because no one is recommending actually applying a vacuum to the cigars, just sealing them in a high quality/oxygen resistant bag.
> The whole point is to eliminate the dilution factor of the cigar essense, caused by air transfer.


Yeah, what he said .

Let's be honest, if your box is missing some cigars than you don't have enough to age them and there is little point in vacuum sealing them. Slowing down the process of aging means you are really going to let them sit, not for a month or a year but more like 10 or more years.

For myself I go the other way with cigars that are fresh to 5 years old. I put some in the drawer of my cab for 6 months to a year to let a lot of air do it's thing. I call it fast aging .


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## landhoney (May 17, 2008)

germantown rob said:


> Let's be honest, if your box is missing some cigars than you don't have enough to age them and there is little point in vacuum sealing them. Slowing down the process of aging means you are really going to let them sit, not for a month or a year but more like 10 or more years.


Why can't you let 10 cigars in a 25 count box sit for 10+ years? I'm not sure what this quote is refering to, filling the space with bubble wrap(above)? My plan is to seal full boxes, maybe with more than one type of cigar in them, but even if they were not full - what's wrong with that?


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## germantown rob (Sep 19, 2005)

landhoney said:


> Why can't you let 10 cigars in a 25 count box sit for 10+ years? I'm not sure what this quote is refering to, filling the space with bubble wrap(above)?


You can, it's just when you start keeping 1/2 full boxes for 10 years+ you need a lot more space than just aging full boxes. 


landhoney said:


> My plan is to seal full boxes, maybe with more than one type of cigar in them, but even if they were not full - what's wrong with that?


Again do what is right for you but mixing cigars is going to mix their flavors and the point of vacuum sealing is to let a particular box age slower than non sealed.


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## landhoney (May 17, 2008)

germantown rob said:


> You can, it's just when you start keeping 1/2 full boxes for 10 years+ you need a lot more space than just aging full boxes.
> Again do what is right for you but mixing cigars is going to mix their flavors and the point of vacuum sealing is to let a particular box age slower than non sealed.


Excellent points, the second part about mixing flavors is interesting. I didn't think this would really be a problem, they're mixed in my humi, how big a problem is this?


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## Kwilkinson (Apr 11, 2008)

landhoney said:


> Excellent points, the second part about mixing flavors is interesting. I didn't think this would really be a problem, they're mixed in my humi, how big a problem is this?


But assumedly, the cigars in your humi that are mixed together, don't stay like that 10+ years. The tobaccos will still marry a bit in your humi, but it's nothing like they would with the aging you're referring to wanting to do.


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## Addiction (May 8, 2007)

SmokinApe said:


> Great thread... Here is my question; if reduced air is better why do some claim the cabnet is better then the dress box? I have seen posts where people recommend filling open space in dress boxes with bubble wrap, counter to the circulation a cab can provide....


Actually I think its because a larger ring gauge cigar ages better, a group of cigars in a cab supposedly acts like a very large ring gauge cigar.


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## Addiction (May 8, 2007)

Kwilkinson said:


> But assumedly, the cigars in your humi that are mixed together, don't stay like that 10+ years. The tobaccos will still marry a bit in your humi, but it's nothing like they would with the aging you're referring to wanting to do.


Well that assumption doesn't account for the box. Ten boxes together will only share reasonably small quantities of air, while 100 sticks in drawers are going to become uniform because of exposure.


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## Kwilkinson (Apr 11, 2008)

Addiction said:


> Well that assumption doesn't account for the box. Ten boxes together will only share reasonably small quantities of air, while 100 sticks in drawers are going to become uniform because of exposure.


True, I was assuming that he meant singles in a desktop/that kinda thing, as opposed to boxes in a vino or a cooler.


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## germantown rob (Sep 19, 2005)

landhoney said:


> Excellent points, the second part about mixing flavors is interesting. I didn't think this would really be a problem, they're mixed in my humi, how big a problem is this?


I think this is a matter of how anal a person wants to be and how long we are talking about. My desktop is all mixed but they are smoked with in the year or much shorter, my cab is filled with boxes. The boxes in theory are protecting or at least slowing the sticks from the surrounding air and therefor the mixing of flavors. Vacuum sealing a box and leaving a box unsealed will age differently and the sealed box could show you where the sealed box will end up in 10-20 years. There is much more than flavors mixing going on here, chemical reactions are taking place and organics are breaking down and changing so there are many more variables than say aging wine. Experiment away, I have, I was only putting my :2 in because of my experience, like trying to age something that tastes so delicious right now that it doesn't even get past 2 years in the humi. Check out MRN's book, it is worth getting a copy of for all sorts of info.


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## Navydoc (Jan 26, 2005)

Addiction said:


> Actually I think its because a larger *ring gauge cigar ages better*, a group of cigars in a cab supposedly acts like a very large ring gauge cigar.


Negative Bryan....RG has little effect to aging. It's more dependant on the starting quality of the tobacco and constant (temp./humidity) storage conditions that will either help, if properly maintained, or hurt, if not properly maintained. I've had many a small RG cigar that would blow away many larger RG cigars of similar age. But that's just my observation.


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## lenguamor (Nov 23, 2006)

Albert Einstein said:


> E=mc²





also said:


> *"In light of knowledge attained, the happy achievement seems almost a matter of course, and any intelligent student can grasp it without too much trouble. But the years of anxious searching in the dark, with their intense longing, their alterations of confidence and exhaustion and the final emergence into the light -- only those who have experienced it can understand it."*


Okay, so...has anyone taken two boxes of the same vitola with the same box code, vacuum-sealed one and not the other, then let them age for, say - 5 years?

Why not? Get on it! :r

On the surface, vacuum-sealing seems a good idea, if one to be applied with moderation. As shown by the experiences of some of our very own gorillas, cigars that have been vacuum-sealed for 40, 50, 60 years seem to have benefited from it. But how do we know for certain that those same cigars might not have actually been _better_ if they had not been subjected to vacuum-sealing?

We don't. Common sense, or a certain linear logic says the cigars benefited from being sealed as they were. But without an _unsealed_ sample group of cigars from the same batch of manufacture, we can't be certain.

The logic does seem sound, but what troubles me is Einstein's famous equation; for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

When you apply a vacuum to the environment around something, you exert a pull on the surface of that object.

If the object is less permeable, like metal, the stress from that pull goes relatively unnoticed...a lack of consequence almost would serve to lull us into a false sense of security about applying the same vacuum force to a more permeable object - a cigar.

When you apply a vacuum to a cigar - no matter how gentle that vacuum - you are exerting a pull on every bit of that cigar. Doesn't it stand to reason that by doing so you are pulling _out_ certain volatile elements from the tobacco...like moisture, and essential oils?

Doesn't it seem that the detrimental effects of vacuum-sealing a living substance such as tobacco, thereby forcing an extraction of its essential elements at the molecular level would outweigh the obvious benefit of limiting the destructive force of air circulation?

It's sh*t like this that keeps me up nights.


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## landhoney (May 17, 2008)

lenguamor said:


> It's sh*t like this that keeps me up nights.


I wouldn't worry too much, either way seems to produce fantastic results.  I know your comment was probably tongue in cheek. I think it would be a great experiment to do, and would be happy to do it, but its going to take a few years. :r Maybe someone has already started this experiment accidently, one box got sealed and another got stuck somewhere else? I would think this would be unlikely if not for the semi-regular posts by the BOTL's with the huge collections who 'find' vintage stuff they forgot they had, or needed to use inventory to find. Not being negative, I am sure if I were in a similar boat(what a boat!) I would be the same.


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## chenvt (Apr 12, 2008)

lenguamor said:


> Okay, so...has anyone taken two boxes of the same vitola with the same box code, vacuum-sealed one and not the other, then let them age for, say - 5 years?
> 
> Why not? Get on it! :r
> 
> ...


I would, but I'm waiting on my flux capacitor to come back from the shop so I can hop in the Delorean.. Plus where the hell in Washington, DC can I hit 88 mph and not get busted?


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## jkim05 (Feb 26, 2007)

Aging is merely a chemical process by which the naturally occuring chemicals in the tobacco break down and combine to form new chemicals. Most of these reactions require oxygen to occur, and it is generally accepted that slower aging leads to better results, not just from experience, there is chemical reasoning to suggest this. When in a low temperature, low oxygen environment, the processes by which tobacco ages produces more preferable results, as it does with wine. 

However, the absence of all oxygen and extremely low temperatures would completely halt the aging process and the cigars would never age at all. For the purposes of aging cigars, vacuum sealing is not significantly more beneficial than merely sealing up the cigars in a plastic barrier to minimize air and water transfer, thus minimizing the oxygen available to the cigars. Completely vacuum sealing the cigars would create a no-oxygen environment.

IMO, cigars in cabs age better because, as has already been stated, less air gets in and out of the cab; I don't think it has much to do with the air inside the cab, then cigars in the center would age better than cigars on the outsides, and I don't know that they do. As for how vacuum sealing can help, the plastics used in home vacuum sealing are a bit thicker, more durable and less air-permeable than traditional plastic bags thus creating a better seal around the box. But make sure the box is at the humidity and temperature you want it to be, it will stay that way for a while once sealed (not forever so boxes should still be stored in a humidor, eventually some water and air does pass through).

just my 2 cents.


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## Addiction (May 8, 2007)

Navydoc said:


> Negative Bryan....RG has little effect to aging. It's more dependant on the starting quality of the tobacco and constant (temp./humidity) storage conditions that will either help, if properly maintained, or hurt, if not properly maintained. I've had many a small RG cigar that would blow away many larger RG cigars of similar age. But that's just my observation.


Ah ha Paul, this isn't my opinion its in the MRN under the culebras entry. In fact it does'nt make any sense at al to me, but because I read it in the book I took it as gospel.


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## Lamar (Dec 12, 1997)

For the experts; is the seal offered by a freezer bag enough for these aging benefits?


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## jkim05 (Feb 26, 2007)

Lamar said:


> For the experts; is the seal offered by a freezer bag enough for these aging benefits?


Quick and dirty answer: yes.


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## One Lonely Smoker (Jan 21, 2005)

vicvitola said:


> Of course not, that would be silly :ss


Unless it's your mouth that's providing the vacuum and at least one end is lit.


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## germantown rob (Sep 19, 2005)

Lamar said:


> For the experts; is the seal offered by a freezer bag enough for these aging benefits?





jkim05 said:


> Quick and dirty answer: yes.


Long answer is not the same seal as a vacuum bag. You can check this out yourself by putting a box or anything in a freezer bag and sucking out the air, eventually air will get into the bag. Freezer bags still have large enough pours to let air transfer where vacuum bags are a complete seal.


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## worr lord (Feb 3, 2007)

Layers and layers of plastic wrap


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## jkim05 (Feb 26, 2007)

germantown rob said:


> Long answer is not the same seal as a vacuum bag. You can check this out yourself by putting a box or anything in a freezer bag and sucking out the air, eventually air will get into the bag. Freezer bags still have large enough pours to let air transfer where vacuum bags are a complete seal.


I will agree, though even ziplocking your boxes will provide enough of a barrier to notice a difference in the long term. Vacuum plastic in general is thicker and less gas and vapor permeable, though neither is totally impermeable.


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