# What do you think about this research project?



## SeanGAR (Jul 9, 2004)

I am trying to see if accelerated ageing of cigars is feasible. I am storing two different cigars at 60 °C (140 °F). They will be held at ~75% humidity for 2 months. Based on what we know of accelerated ageing of foods, that time and temperature combination should be equal (more or less) to 2-3 years at room temperature. The temperature is higher than anything mold or anything can grow and the humidity should prevent drying out.

I am testing La Finca Robustos and JR Cuban Alt Bolivar Coronas (which had a bit of ammonia). Cigars will be treated with age and other cigars from the same batch are held in a traveldor beside the oven.

I will equilibrate them at 70% and send them to some (un)lucky gorillas for analysis. They of course will be tasted blind. I'm thinking if I get feedback from 5-6 people I should have an idea of whether or not this can change the taste for the better via accelerated ageing.

I'm not about to put some PSD4s in there yet :r


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## Da Klugs (Jan 8, 2005)

Typical Liberal always want things "now" :r (Just kidding) (No I really really mean just kidding) (Remember I was just kidding) (I respect your right to voice your views in any way you want ..I was just kidding honest) Neat idea. If it works man oh man gonna be a run on ovens around here.


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## floydp (Jun 6, 2004)

Did you get a Government Grant for the research Sean???


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## Barrythevic (Jan 1, 2000)

I hope you froze the cigars first, otherwise I can almost guarantee that you will hatch the beetles.

Good Luck


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## galaga (Sep 18, 2003)

SeanGAR said:


> I am trying to see if accelerated ageing of cigars is feasible. I am storing two different cigars at 60 °C (140 °F). They will be held at ~75% humidity for 2 months. Based on what we know of accelerated ageing of foods, that time and temperature combination should be equal (more or less) to 2-3 years at room temperature. The temperature is higher than anything mold or anything can grow and the humidity should prevent drying out.
> 
> I am testing La Finca Robustos and JR Cuban Alt Bolivar Coronas (which had a bit of ammonia). Cigars will be treated with age and other cigars from the same batch are held in a traveldor beside the oven.
> 
> ...


 
I'll volunteer right now for the double blind taste testing!


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## SeanGAR (Jul 9, 2004)

Barrythevic said:


> I hope you froze the cigars first, otherwise I can almost guarantee that you will hatch the beetles.
> 
> Good Luck


Actually, I did think of that and it was one of my concerns.

From the University of Florida web site

http://creatures.ifas.ufl.edu/urban/stored/cigarette_beetle.htm

even 120 F is enough to kill the critters, so I should be OK at 140.

I wish I could get a grant for this LOL .... and klugsie..... just for that remark, I'll put on top of the "Volunteers to try the cigars" list.


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## DsrtDog (Jan 25, 2005)

Sean,

Sounds very interesting...I am waiting with my fingers crossed :w If this works it will mean my time travel machine may be obsolete


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## radar (Dec 31, 1999)

Interesting experiment, the part about the beetles being found in the resin in tomb of Tutankhamun was especially interesting.


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## Nely (Nov 11, 2004)

Very interesting indeed. I would love to help you out in your project.


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## Mr. White (Dec 4, 2004)

SeanGAR said:


> Actually, I did think of that and it was one of my concerns.
> 
> From the University of Florida web site
> 
> ...


Nice info there. I thought it interesting that they say in order to kill them with cold it has to be at or under 4c for 6 days...


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## txmatt (May 22, 2004)

Well at least he isn't sticking his head in the oven!! :r 


-Matt-


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## Artoud (Mar 16, 2005)

This is a fantastic idea. I'm surprised at the timeline, since in chemistry they generally say reactions double in speed for every 10 degrees C increased, so if you normally work around room temperature (25 C) and you are up to 60 C then you are talking about 2^(35/10) = 11.3, so one month should be roughly equivalent to one year.

I would be concerned about bacteria too--do any smelly bacteria live at those temperatures?

I love a scientific mind, combining this experiment with the double blind tasting--excellent thinking old chap!


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## SeanGAR (Jul 9, 2004)

Artoud said:


> This is a fantastic idea. I'm surprised at the timeline, since in chemistry they generally say reactions double in speed for every 10 degrees C increased, so if you normally work around room temperature (25 C) and you are up to 60 C then you are talking about 2^(35/10) = 11.3, so one month should be roughly equivalent to one year.
> 
> I would be concerned about bacteria too--do any smelly bacteria live at those temperatures?
> 
> I love a scientific mind, combining this experiment with the double blind tasting--excellent thinking old chap!


Yea, I assumed room temp was 20 (here in VA haha) and the Q10 was 2, so 2 months should give me the equivalent of 2-3 years age.

The upper limit for thermophiles is in the 62-65 C range, although some crazy-ass bacteria can live near boiling. http://helios.bto.ed.ac.uk/bto/microbes/thermo.htm

These organisms are bacteria which would not grow at 75% humidity. So the combination of high temperature and relative low water humidity should keep everything nice and clean. If I have any question about that I'll just do the total plate counts.


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## radar (Dec 31, 1999)

SeanGAR said:


> http://helios.bto.ed.ac.uk/bto/microbes/thermo.htm


Compost. There's another thread regarding the ISOM smell (barnyard, poo, Cow dung, etc). Maybe Cigma Chi can make this a band for those sticks we know are ISOM's but just can't remember which ISOM's.


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## miketafc (Dec 7, 2003)

txmatt said:


> Well at least he isn't sticking his head in the oven!! :r
> 
> -Matt-


I think he already has Matt


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## Artoud (Mar 16, 2005)

radar said:


> Compost. There's another thread regarding the ISOM smell


This is great. Of course an experiment is the only real way to find the true answer. radar's comment makes me wonder if, rather than oxidation, the bulk of the aging comes from biological activity. Changing the temp should affect the biota involved, and probably the flavor. Maybe we'll finally discover a way to knock off an ISOM perfectly?


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## radar (Dec 31, 1999)

Artoud said:


> Maybe we'll finally discover a way to knock off an ISOM perfectly?


If Sean can do that, he'll need a process patent and a new banker! He'll already have a new neighbor, me!


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## pinoyman (Jan 28, 2005)

I think it'll work, it will defininetly changed, taste and appearance.
I've tried it before, but nothing like those extreme set point.
this might give you an idea (I hope)
I used cayman summer temp. an average of 92F and humidified the cigars at 78RH for two months inside a wooden cab.
it was an Esplendidos, the wrapper is nothing like a nature aged cigar, it lost most of the oil but still intact and no splits.
the taste changed yes, you can still taste the Esplendido signature tone but somehow the cigar complexcity is gone. It is more like one taste from start to finish. must be my set points! I will be glad to hear the result of your reseach, and i think that is a good setpoint. IMHO

Goodluck Senor!

Salud


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## pinoyman (Jan 28, 2005)

radar said:


> If Sean can do that, he'll need a process patent and a new banker! He'll already have a new neighbor, me!


Hey Radar! one more post and its your 1,000th!!!


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## radar (Dec 31, 1999)

pinoyman said:


> Hey Radar! one more post and its your 1,000th!!!


May as well use it here. I received the cigars from you and Hollywood today, thank you so much my friend!


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## pinoyman (Jan 28, 2005)

radar said:


> May as well use it here. I received the cigars from you and Hollywood today, thank you so much my friend!


You are very welcome! I just want to hear your thoughts Amigo about the UFO's Mucho ligeros. then it's the newbies turn!
*Congrats on your 1,000 post! * It's been a pleasure learning with you.

Salud!


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## radar (Dec 31, 1999)

pinoyman said:


> You are very welcome! I just want to hear your thoughts Amigo about the UFO's Mucho ligeros. then it's the newbies turn!
> 
> Salud!


I will smoke one in a few days, after I let them recover from their journey. I sent your package via Express Mail today, I think you'll be pleased.


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## pinoyman (Jan 28, 2005)

radar said:


> I will smoke one in a few days, after I let them recover from their journey. I sent your package via Express Mail today, I think you'll be pleased.


Muchas Gracias Senor!


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## radar (Dec 31, 1999)

pinoyman said:


> Muchas Gracias Senor!


Mi placer !!


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## D. Generate (Jul 1, 2004)

My curiosity is piqued. I think this is an interesting idea and I'm looking forward to hearing the results. I have trouble with temptation and leaving my cigars alone to age. So if this works I might have to invest in an EZ Bake oven.


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## MattK (Jan 2, 2004)

txmatt said:


> Well at least he isn't sticking his head in the oven!! :r
> 
> -Matt-


Huhh???? What is that supposed to mean? :fu


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## galaga (Sep 18, 2003)

MattK said:


> Huhh???? What is that supposed to mean? :fu


It took awhile but I finally remembered :r A blast from the past as it were!


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## SeanGAR (Jul 9, 2004)

pinoyman said:


> I used cayman summer temp. an average of 92F and humidified the cigars at 78RH for two months inside a wooden cab.
> it was an Esplendidos, the wrapper is nothing like a nature aged cigar, it lost most of the oil but still intact and no splits.


Wow, it will be a long time before a Cuban gets in my model system LOL. I'm using this as a potential way to get past the ammonia stage in less expensive cigars rather than to try and make a 4 month old habano taste like its 4 years old - there is only so much I think this will do well.

Your point about the oils is quite good - I don't actually expect it is feasible to do this and maintain the quality of something like a Cohiba, but we'll see how well it works on cheap cigars first. I assume from your post that you would have preferred the un-heat treated esplendidos over the heated ones?


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## Cartierusm (Jan 25, 2005)

I would suggest if you haven't done it already to set the same type, batch and number of cigars aside that you are experimenting with so the test subject won't know what he/she's smoking but can compare 2 of the same cigar. That way they can tell if there was any change. If you are not going to do that I suggest using test subjects that smoke the type you are testing regularly.


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## SeanGAR (Jul 9, 2004)

Cartierusm said:


> I would suggest if you haven't done it already to set the same type, batch and number of cigars aside that you are experimenting with so the test subject won't know what he/she's smoking but can compare 2 of the same cigar. That way they can tell if there was any change. If you are not going to do that I suggest using test subjects that smoke the type you are testing regularly.


Yup. I randomly split up 12 of each of the 2 cigars used into treated and non treated batches. I'll use three digit random codes and provide them to the sucker ..er...taster. I'll have 2 cigars, 6 replications so can send one pair to each of 12 people. I'm thinking of doing a simple test, get them to light them up side by side, and tell me a simple preference. With 12 judgements, I need 10 to prefer the heat treated cigar to reach 5% significance level.


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## txmatt (May 22, 2004)

MattK said:


> Huhh???? What is that supposed to mean? :fu


Hey, you can't post, go back to programming!?!?  I haven't seen much of you lately bud so I figure I would see if I could get a rise.. Glad to see you're still around.

-Matt-


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## t'kay (Jan 30, 2005)

I was just curious about this and I wanted an update!  Any problems so far?


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## SeanGAR (Jul 9, 2004)

So, after 6 weeks at 60 °C and I have stopped this part of the experiment. They are now at room temperature and 70% humidity where they will relax for one week. The estimated extra aging is about 1.85 years. 

I need a number of tasters to volunteer to compare a pair of cigars and to tell me which of the two they prefer. I would rather they be smoked side by side rather than at separate times, but I won't be there to police you. They are Nicaraguan cigars, if that matters.

I already have taken the liberty of "volunteering" myself, Da Klugs, radaR and TXMatt for this duty (sorry guys, this isn't a case where you can unvolunteer yourselves).

I have 7 pairs of cigars remaining so I need 7 volunteers to smoke the cigars and let me know which of the pair you prefer. I will send the cigars blind, you will not know which is which. They will be in separate baggies with three digit codes on them. PLEASE DO NOT MIX THEM UP. If you want to write a mini-review of the cigars, all the better, but all the information that I am requesting is your preference.

If you would be willing to test them, post below. They will be sent out in 10 days or so, after I am satisfied that the cigars are equilibrated to room temperature and are tested to be smokeable. 

Thanks
Sean


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## Papa Herf (Feb 27, 2005)

Sean, if you've still got room, I'll give it a shot, unless you are looking exclusively for more experienced palates. In which case, I will defer gladly to said experienced tasters.


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## Da Klugs (Jan 8, 2005)

This is cool. If it works let's load the next batch up with PSD4's and Monte #2's and put 10 years on em.

So glad I did that patent application.  

Thanks again for including me Sean. If you have issues with more volunteers I know that OldDog would love to participate.


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## RcktS4 (Jan 13, 2005)

Papa Herf said:


> Sean, if you've still got room, I'll give it a shot, unless you are looking exclusively for more experienced palates. In which case, I will defer gladly to said experienced tasters.


dit-to professor.


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## galaga (Sep 18, 2003)

ME ME ME!!!!! (I'm not warming up to sing.....)  

THX.

Unless you mind 65% RH, since that's what I'm running.


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## D. Generate (Jul 1, 2004)

I'd like to try this out! I'm really curious if it works.


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## PuffTheMagicDragon (May 2, 2005)

I'd be a willing victim....I mean participant if you don't mind a complete newb taking part in your experiment. If not, I understand and its no problem.


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## Roger Miller" (Apr 15, 2004)

I'd love to give this experiment my services. I've been watching the forum for the results. So, if you still need someone to blind test the results -- id' be happy to do so.

_____
rm


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## jgrimball (Mar 17, 2005)

Sign me up Sean!


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## SeanGAR (Jul 9, 2004)

jgrimball said:


> Sign me up Sean!


And that gives me the volunteers that I need, many thanks.

Dave, I'll contact OldDog and send him a review sample as well.

I will get bafck with y'all in a week or so when I am satisfied that they are in smoking shape.

Ciao
Sean


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## Papa Herf (Feb 27, 2005)

I am officially excited. This is the first test I have had since the bar exam. This gives me a legitimate excuse to study, in a subject I really like.


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## Uniputt (Nov 23, 2004)

I've been watching this thread since it's inception. I think the results are going to be quite interesting. Imagine. The holy grail of cigar aging.....a whole new science birthed right here in the jungle!!!

The anticipation is killing me!!!


:sb HURRY UP Y'ALL!!!


(Next thing you know we'll be using a pressure cooker to speed up the process even further!!!!  )


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## LastClick (Jan 2, 2005)

txmatt said:


> Well at least he isn't sticking his head in the oven!! :r
> 
> -Matt-


 :r :r :r


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## floydp (Jun 6, 2004)

This is kewl, the findings may change the way we smoke cigars FOREVER!!!!!!!!!! 

HA HA HA ITS ALIVE......... ahem sorry bout that, but I'm looking forward to the findings..


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## dayplanner (Dec 11, 1997)

SeanGAR said:


> .... and klugsie..... just for that remark, I'll put on top of the "Volunteers to try the cigars" list.


In that case.... :tpd:


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## DownUnder LLG (Mar 29, 2005)

Man, you guys got way to many brain cells  , I'm impressed with this idea and can't wait to hear the results. Good luck to the experiment... oh, and the VOLUNTEERS


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## Lumpold (Apr 28, 2005)

Makes you kinda glad they don't impose an IQ test to join...

But something, somewhere, deep in the recesses of my mind, untouched since GCSEs at 16... lying dormant and bored all these years.... No... it can't be bothered, my business like acumen and razor sharp sense has given way to a cigar smokin fool.


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## jgrimball (Mar 17, 2005)

How those experimental stick coming Sean?


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## SeanGAR (Jul 9, 2004)

jgrimball said:


> How those experimental stick coming Sean?


I will ship next week to the "lucky volunteers". I wanted to make sure they were equilibrated at the same humidity before I ship.

Sean


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## partagaspete (Apr 27, 2004)

I would volunteer but my palat is not as experienced as others...let the big boys decide if it works. 

T


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## SeanGAR (Jul 9, 2004)

Review team,

They are flying tomorrow my friends....may the force be with you.

Sean


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## RcktS4 (Jan 13, 2005)

Sticks arrived today... with some very welcome surprises as well.

Thanks Sean, I'll sit down with these sometime this week when i have some serious peace and quiet to devote to them. Just to ease my paranoid mind, though - will you attest again to the fact that no Cremosas were involved in this process in any way, shape, or form? Can you also assure me that the Cremosas were not smoked, opened, or seated anywhere near these?

... I just started tasting again.


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## jgrimball (Mar 17, 2005)

RcktS4 said:


> Sticks arrived today... with some very welcome surprises as well.


Ditto! Thanks Sean and I will report my finding promptly!


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## Funnymantrip (Oct 28, 2004)

From the University of Florida web site 


These are the same people who created the love bug. Are we really going to trust them?


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## Papa Herf (Feb 27, 2005)

Sean, got your test subjects today, hope to try one tonight. Thanks for the bonus stogies as well - they look delicious!


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## Nathan (May 11, 2005)

You did send a release of liability form with those cigars right? I mean for your own protection. :lol:


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## galaga (Sep 18, 2003)

Got them yesterday and they are resting fine. They certainly smell good. Maybe that is from being in the same baggie as their two travelling companions...thank you sir. Will send results in a week or two.


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## Roger Miller" (Apr 15, 2004)

Sean:
after a five day rest in my humidor i did a side by side comparison of the test subjects you sent me. By side by side i mean i lit one -- smoked a quarter -- lit the next, smoked a quarter of that, went back to the first, smoked another quarter, etc.

Per instructions i PM'e you my observations.
Thanks for including me in this project -- it was a blast. I look forward to your results.

Thanks for the hitchhikers too!

Cheers!

_____
rm


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## SeanGAR (Jul 9, 2004)

Roger Miller" said:


> Sean:
> after a five day rest in my humidor i did a side by side comparison of the test subjects you sent me. By side by side i mean i lit one -- smoked a quarter -- lit the next, smoked a quarter of that, went back to the first, smoked another quarter, etc.
> 
> Per instructions i PM'e you my observations.
> ...


Thanks, I'll start posting the results next week .... not identifying the cigars yet of course except to those who provided the comments.
Thanks all
Sean


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## PuffTheMagicDragon (May 2, 2005)

With my cold but a recent memory and my taste/smell back to normal, I will soon start on this groundbreaking project.


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## Uniputt (Nov 23, 2004)

Hey Sean......

How about some preliminary results to whet our appetite??  

Inquiring minds want to know!!! :c 

Lets have all the sordid details!!!


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## radar (Dec 31, 1999)

Got mine but am letting them rest for a few days. I have to try Daves Cremosa tonight. u


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## dayplanner (Dec 11, 1997)

radar said:


> Got mine but am letting them rest for a few days. I have to try Daves Cremosa tonight. u


No Gary NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Uniputt (Nov 23, 2004)

radar said:


> Got mine but am letting them rest for a few days. I have to try Daves Cremosa tonight. u


Well. it's the next day.........  
Are you alive?  
Is everything okay? 

Those cremosas are good, huh?


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## radar (Dec 31, 1999)

Uniputt said:


> Well. it's the next day.........
> Are you alive?
> Is everything okay?
> 
> Those cremosas are good, huh?


Snapped out of it just prior to last rites.
Close one!


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## SeanGAR (Jul 9, 2004)

Well ... lessee .... time to put a few data points on the board.

DaKlugs: La Finca Robusto Nicaraguan puro
Pegged and preferred the aged stick ... suggested the un-aged was "Tamboril"

Radar: La Finca
Preferred the un-aged one. Thought it was "healthier". 

RckyS4: JR Alt Bolivar corona (Nicaraguan)
Pegged the unaged one as Nic smoke. Preferred unaged smoke.

2 preferred unaged, one preferred aged. I think I'll keep my Cubans out of the oven ..... but we still have a few reviews to go.

Sean


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## radar (Dec 31, 1999)

SeanGAR said:


> Well ... lessee .... time to put a few data points on the board.
> 
> DaKlugs: La Finca Robusto Nicaraguan puro
> Pegged and preferred the aged stick ... suggested the un-aged was "Tamboril"
> ...


Klugsy hands out Cremosas and Tamborils. He can't be trusted.


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## jgrimball (Mar 17, 2005)

Data Sent!


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## galaga (Sep 18, 2003)

Blind Smoke Study (sticks 264 & 331)

Initial Observations:
264: Darker wrapper with numerous cream colored spots. Slightly arched, firm to squeeze, rich tob. aroma, cut well and pre-lite draw slightly smokey chocolate tob. aroma.
331: Lighter wrapper, unspotted, straight and soft to squeeze. Rich tob aroma, cut well and pre-lite draw was slightly grassy chocolate tob. aroma.

Lite:
264: Lit easily, burned straight. Slightly tight draw, less smoke, more cedar in the aroma and little bite in inhaling the smoke thought the nose. Firmer ash.
331: Lit easily burned straight. Loose draw, more smoke, nutty cedar in the aroma, much bite in inhaling the smoke throught the nose.

Concurrent Smoking:
264: Smooth taste of tob. with cedar in the aroma. At times, slight leather taste, slight nuttiness and did not need purging. When purged, no voilatiles were ignited and flavor remained the same.
331: There was a bite on the tongue that was distracting with cedar in the aroma and at times a pronounced nuttiness in the flavor. The bite would build up but could be removed by purging, the volatiles giving a large violet/orange flame. After purging, nuttiness would then be very pronounced, with a leather taste at times and the tongue bite would go away.

End:
264: This smoke finally developed some bite with 3 fingers left that would not purge. Had a slight nuttiness, slight leather taste of tob. The better smoke, as it had a good flavor of tob. with a nice cedar aroma with hints of leather and nuts for the first two thirds. This one kept my attention more and smoked better for the first two thirds. Let die after that
331: This smoke had a harshness that could be purged away, yielding a more intense taste than its counterpart, but for the first half of the smoke, it was too much work. Finally in the last half the bite went away to give a tasty smoke but was back and unpurgable by the last third. If the bite had not retutned, this one would have been the better smoke.

Preferred 264. Smoked with a Racer IPA.

Thought I would post this here so everyone could share. THX Professor, it was an enjoyable experiment. Do we get lab credit on our transcripts for this....


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## Roger Miller" (Apr 15, 2004)

galaga said:


> ..... THX Professor, it was an enjoyable experiment. Do we get lab credit on our transcripts for this....


Actually, now that you mention it -- i'd like one of those cool white lab jackets with the big pockets.

_____
rm


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## SeanGAR (Jul 9, 2004)

Roger Miller" said:


> Actually, now that you mention it -- i'd like one of those cool white lab jackets with the big pockets.
> 
> _____
> rm


You mind huge stains from fish guts?


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## Roger Miller" (Apr 15, 2004)

SeanGAR said:


> You mind huge stains from fish guts?


 :r I suppose they were autopsied to document the effects of cigar inhalation. :r

_____
rm


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## RcktS4 (Jan 13, 2005)

Any more data yet, professor?


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## DrStrangelove (Jun 8, 2005)

RcktS4 said:


> Any more data yet, professor?


 :tpd:


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## SeanGAR (Jul 9, 2004)

DrStrangelove said:


> :tpd:


Final Analysis:

More people preferred the artificially aged cigars to the ones stored the whole time in the humidor, but the results did not reach statistical significance. If I was going to do another experiment, I would freeze the cigars first and use a lower storage temperature. I think the 60C was extreme and would result in more loss of volatile oils and risk more wrapper damage.


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## Guest (Oct 20, 2005)

I strongly suspect that this is the thread I was hunting for. Thanks for the bump to bring this back up to the top of the heap. 

Let me know if you decide to revive test, I will be happy to contribute some sticks for the cause.

Kid


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## altbier (Feb 20, 2005)

SeanGAR said:


> You mind huge stains from fish guts?


What are you doing Sean, making your own insinglass now? :r


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## kenstogie (Jun 14, 2005)

SeanGAR said:


> Actually, I did think of that and it was one of my concerns.
> 
> From the University of Florida web site
> 
> ...


Good link and I too will donate cigars for Science.


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## illuminatus (Oct 20, 2005)

what a freaking awesome idea! I say try it again, there'll be no shortage of volunteer tasters... I know I'd do it in a heartbeat... sheesh.. and I thought I was a smart kid...


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## smokinpoke (Apr 8, 2006)

this is an awesome thread. way to make science work for the smoker.


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## luckybandit (Jul 9, 2006)

please keep us posted with your results


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## rumballs (Mar 15, 2005)

luckybandit said:


> please keep us posted with your results


???

see posts 68 and 77 in this thread.


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