# Mixing beads...



## Soprano3695 (Jul 16, 2007)

If I were to mix and equal amount of 65 RH beads and 70 RH beads will I achieve a humidity level of 67.5% ?


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## Bobb (Jun 26, 2006)

Soprano3695 said:


> If I were to mix and equal amount of 65 RH beads and 70 RH beads will I achieve a humidity level of 67.5% ?


I don't think so. I believe the 65% would keep sucking up moisture and the 70% would keep trying to pump out moisture and you'll end up with white 70% beads, clear 65% beads, and a humidor right around 65%. That's just my guess though.

I use 65% beads and my humidor is almost always at 67% anyways.


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## ljh824 (Oct 14, 2007)

Whew, this just blew my mind. I think it would be a good experiment. If you put the beads in together, I wonder if they would battle for air superiority! Would make for good TV.

I keed, i keed! I honestly don't know, but I'm sure some others have some input.


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

Yes, in a perfect world.
It could end up anywhere from 66.5 to 68.5, really.


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## icehog3 (Feb 20, 2005)

Mix them together, put them in the microwave, and you actually go back in time!


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## Bobb (Jun 26, 2006)

icehog3 said:


> Mix them together, put them in the microwave, and you actually go back in time!


:r:r


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## Old Sailor (Jul 27, 2006)

In a word...no.


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## Harpo (Oct 11, 2007)

icehog3 said:


> Mix them together, put them in the microwave, and you actually go back in time!


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## ghostrider (Oct 30, 2005)

Personally I like to put a humidifier at one end of the room, and a dehumidifier at the other end. 

Let them battle it out...:ss


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## Old Sailor (Jul 27, 2006)

*Re: Humidification Beads: FAQs*

Quote:

Originally Posted by *ju1c3r* 
_If i want 67-68rh... can i put half 65 and half 70?_

I wish it would work that way for you but it will not. You would initially get a 70% rh until the 70% beads were dry then you would quickly go to 65% and remain there until those beads went dry.

Sorry.
__________________
found the above from Viper, search the beads thread.


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## BostonMark (Sep 12, 2007)

Harpo said:


>


Is the guy from van wilder?


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## Padron42 (Sep 18, 2007)

Harpo said:


>


:r :r :r


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## Munkey (Jan 14, 2008)

I'm actually playing with this at the moment. I have 2 oz of 70% in the bottom of my humi and 1 oz of 65% in the top. The bottom of the humi is 62-64 and the top is 65-66. 

And, no, I don't intend to keep it this way. It's just what is there at the moment. (last two weeks)


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## smokinpoke (Apr 8, 2006)

Harpo said:


>


Let's get this straight. I would have made more trips if it wasn't for a shortage of flux capacitor's


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

I'm putting together a test group right now to see what happens.
I'll be using a half pound of 60% beads and a half pound of 70% beads.
My bet would be that the two equal amounts will seek equilibrium and recondition themselves to whatever level their quantative water levels will allow.
(I'll be shocked if the RH ends up right at 65%, but I do expect something in the midrange. It's because I don't have exact amounts of wicking material, beads, or water in each bag, but they're damn close.)
I may have to recondition a batch of beads because I don't think I have any equal amounts of like media in 60% and 70%.
Figures.
Here's the two test groups as they stand now after about 10 minutes in their bags...

I'll recondition whatever bag isn't right at 70% by throwing it in the oven for an hour or two to dry it out, then I'll rehydrate it until it's at 60%.
Once both bags are on the money, I'll toss them in a big bag and let them battle it out and see what happens.
This is going to take awhile.


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## NicotineBuzz (Dec 9, 2007)

shilala said:


> I'm putting together a test group right now to see what happens.
> I'll be using a half pound of 60% beads and a half pound of 70% beads.
> My bet would be that the two equal amounts will seek equilibrium and recondition themselves to whatever level their quantative water levels will allow.
> (I'll be shocked if the RH ends up right at 65%, but I do expect something in the midrange. It's because I don't have exact amounts of wicking material, beads, or water in each bag, but they're damn close.)
> ...


I love stuff like this. "Battle of the Beads" I'll be watching for the results.


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

NicotineBuzz said:


> I love stuff like this. "Battle of the Beads" I'll be watching for the results.


Awesome. At least someone will be watching. 
The bead bags are ready to go. They leveled at 74F/69% and 74F.59% respectively.
I'll be putting them together in a gallon bag in just a few moments.
I'll watch them throughout the day to see what happens and post results as soon as something happens.
Here's the pic...


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## NCRadioMan (Feb 28, 2005)

This has been disscussed in the Beads FAQ thread.  It doesn't work that way.

Per Viper:


> I know what you are hoping for but sorry. You will get an RH of 70% until the 70% beads are dry then the RH will drop pretty quickly to 65% and staty there until they are dry. Sorry no 67.5% RH.


http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showpost.php?p=125647&postcount=157


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

NCRadioMan said:


> This has been disscussed in the Beads FAQ thread.  It doesn't work that way.
> 
> Per Viper:
> 
> http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showpost.php?p=125647&postcount=157


Right now, after 20 minutes in, one hygrometer is hanging at 65% and one at 66%.
I'll leave the bags together until at least tomorrow morning at which time I'll seperate the bags again and see if they've found equalibrium or if they've held their individual characteristics or what's happened.


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## str8edg (Dec 30, 2007)

NCRadioMan said:


> This has been disscussed in the Beads FAQ thread.  It doesn't work that way.
> 
> Per Viper:
> 
> http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showpost.php?p=125647&postcount=157


Funny that's just what that Old Sailor said!!

Still I love experiment. I can't wait to see your results


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## GoodFella (Nov 3, 2007)

Harpo said:


>





BostonMark said:


> Is the guy from van wilder?


its sick boy:r


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

It's been two hours and the hygrometers are now at 64% and 65%.


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## gwc4sc (Jan 11, 2008)

Harpo said:


>


:tpd:
Safety is not guaranteed. :r:r:r Looks like a serial killer.


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## Soprano3695 (Jul 16, 2007)

Another couple of hours of those mixed beads and your going to go back in time as well.

I hold no responsibiility...i just posed the question.


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## NicotineBuzz (Dec 9, 2007)

So where are we now?


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## Soprano3695 (Jul 16, 2007)

We haven't heard from you in awhile. I hope you didn't time warp.


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

Right this moment we're at 65 and 67.
I flipped both gel bags over (without opening the bag) and the hygrometer sitting by the high RH bag has been reading a little higher all alongI'm excited to see what's happening in the morning.


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## Old Sailor (Jul 27, 2006)

Are you using beads or gel stuff??


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

Old Sailor said:


> Are you using beads or gel stuff??


Silica gel, or "humidity beads" as we call them here.


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## Old Sailor (Jul 27, 2006)

Ah ok.


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

OMG, they're at 66 and 67 now!!!


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## Tour De Cigar (Feb 26, 2007)

Soprano3695 said:


> If I were to mix and equal amount of 65 RH beads and 70 RH beads will I achieve a humidity level of 67.5% ?


someone ask this question a while back and a rep from hertf. responded, and he say nope... a mixture of beads will not create that specific % he said what will happen for example if you have 65% and 70% he said the 70% will over rule.. it wouldnt be a mixture of the % on the beads.. :ss


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## pnoon (Jun 8, 2005)

shilala said:


> Silica gel, or "humidity beads" as we call them here.


Two very different products. Silica gel is a dessicant and is used to remove humidity. Beads regulate humidity by absorbing or giving off moisture.


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

pnoon said:


> Two very different products. Silica gel is a dessicant and is used to remove humidity. Beads regulate humidity by absorbing or giving off moisture.


They are one in the same. If you'll take time to research the product carefully, you'll see exactly that. You'll also be able to place exactly which product "humidity beads" are based on their characteristics, who packages and distributes which "brands", and who manufactures the silica gel in what country.
There are a number of grades with minor differences that effect it's performances at different ranges, making them better for different applications, but they are all from the same tree, and are all silica gel.
I'm not sure from where you extracted the statement you made, but I can respectfully say you are wrong.

Furthermore, the dessicant grade you are referring to will work exactly as do the "humidity beads" when conditioned as such. Their only downfall is that they work very well at an RH range around 40-50%, making them less desirable for our use in humidors. We'd have to use a far higher volume of that particular grade of silica gel to achieve the same humidification ability as the grade we refer to as "humidity beads". That's why we use a different grade that works well in the range of 60 to 70%.
I should also mention that the grade of silica gel you referred to as a dessicant used to remove humidity comes as beads or in chunk form. Most silica gels are available in either form and are chosen based on the intended application. Either form offers the same properties, though a beaded form offers a greater surface area per volume, making it more successful at adsorbing (or in our case, adsorbing and desorbing) vapor.
There are other qualities in other grades of silica gel that could make them more desirable for our needs. Some have a higher rate of depracation, meaning they won't pop when water hits them and they'll last far longer in our application. Some have smaller pores creating a larger surface area that allows them to react more quickly to changes in their environment, allowing them to come to equilibrium quicker. There are also other products such as molecular sieve, activated clay, various salt solutions, and chemical preparations that may work well in our application.


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## pnoon (Jun 8, 2005)

shilala said:


> They are one in the same. If you'll take time to research the product carefully, you'll see exactly that. You'll also be able to place exactly which product "humidity beads" are based on their characteristics, who packages and distributes which "brands", and who manufactures the silica gel in what country.
> There are a number of grades with minor differences that effect it's performances at different ranges, making them better for different applications, but they are all from the same tree, and are all silica gel.
> I'm not sure from where you extracted the statement you made, but I can respectfully say you are wrong.
> 
> ...


  I've been attacked. You've discredited me. I don't have to sit here and take it  

Seriously, I was speaking from general knowledge and understanding. I have not reseached this in detail as you obviously have. I defer to your knowledge.


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

pnoon said:


> I've been attacked. You've discredited me. I don't have to sit here and take it
> 
> Seriously, I was speaking from general knowledge and understanding. I have not reseached this in detail as you obviously have. I defer to your knowledge.


Hang in there brother, I'm learning too. 
I'm doing a battery of tests on a lot of different medias in hopes of getting everyone on the same page. I'm doing a test right now in this thread to answer this question definatively because I don't know the answer and everyone seems to have a different idea.

At the end of all the tests, hopefully we'll know what works best for our different humidors.
There's a lot of different medias that may work well in incubators, too. That's something I've been dealing with for lots of years and I've dragged what I learned there into this subject of humidity within humidors.
I'll be posting all sorts of silly test results along the way before I ultimately put everything in one place so it's available to everyone.
I think it will be good for all of us, especially me cause I'm playing hell trying to get my humidor and wine coolers "perfect".
It ain't easy being incredibly anal.


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

This morning I seperated the bags and put them back in single bags to see how far along they are.
The 69% bag has now turned into a 67% bag and the 59% bag turned into a 64% bag.
I'm now going to put the bags back together and see what happens after a few more days. I'll report back when they've done something dramatic and exciting.


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## Viper139 (Jan 13, 2005)

As far as Heartfelt Humidity Beads are concerned Bob and Old Sailor are correct. The 70% beads will work to keep the rh up at 70% and the 65% beads will absorb the moisture the 70% beads give off. This will continue until the 70% beads are dry and the rh will drop to 65% and stay there until the 65% beads are dry and the rh will drop. Heartfelt Beads are chemically treated to maitain a given rh point and will work to maintain that point. Mixing them will not acheive 67.5%.

I have tested this a few times and these are the results that I get and that it what the manufacturer states will happen with the HeEartfelt Humidity Beads.

David


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## Old Sailor (Jul 27, 2006)

Shilala, just for sh*ts and giggles....when someone here mentions beads, it's in reference to beads from heartfelt or cigarmony; and gel means gel. That's the way it has been long before either of us joined. Just thought I would clarify the 2 as it is seen here.:2


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

Old Sailor said:


> Shilala, just for sh*ts and giggles....when someone here mentions beads, it's in reference to beads from heartfelt or cigarmony; and gel means gel. That's the way it has been long before either of us joined. Just thought I would clarify the 2 as it is seen here.:2


Thanks Old Sailor. 
I was pointing out that "humidity beads" are silica gel (which I agree is confusing as it doesn't resemble "gel"), not to be confused with polyacrylamide (which is the "gel" we speak of here) for the sake of this discussion so the folks following the thread knew what I was blathering on about.
I was simply drawing lines for the discussion so we were all on the same page. 
I think I'll keep doing it that way. Folks here are pretty sharp, I'm sure they know what I'm saying even if I don't sometimes.


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

Viper139 said:


> As far as Heartfelt Humidity Beads are concerned Bob and Old Sailor are correct. The 70% beads will work to keep the rh up at 70% and the 65% beads will absorb the moisture the 70% beads give off. This will continue until the 70% beads are dry and the rh will drop to 65% and stay there until the 65% beads are dry and the rh will drop. Heartfelt Beads are chemically treated to maitain a given rh point and will work to maintain that point. Mixing them will not acheive 67.5%.
> 
> I have tested this a few times and these are the results that I get and that it what the manufacturer states will happen with the HeEartfelt Humidity Beads.
> 
> David


Thanks for straightening that out, David. The Original Poster hadn't mentioned anything about the RH beads being Heartfelt Beads, although
I had assumed your beads were the same as the industry standard after researching them at your website. That's my mistake for making sweeping generalizations, it won't happen again.

I hadn't seen any mention at your website of the "chemical treatment" that sets your beads apart when I did my initial research. I went back and looked again more carefully and didn't see anything.
It kind of concerns me. What sort of chemicals are they?

It seems odd to limit the properties of silica gel, considering it's capable of being conditioned to any humidity level simply by hydrating it to whatever level we choose.
Do you know any of the thinking behind that?

I'm glad to have you in this discussion, I'm sure you'll be a lot of help!!!


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## Old Sailor (Jul 27, 2006)

Not a problem.:tu


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## Mark C (Sep 19, 2007)

shilala said:


> It seems odd to limit the properties of silica gel, considering it's capable of being conditioned to any humidity level simply by hydrating it to whatever level we choose.
> Do you know any of the thinking behind that?


Would you mind explaining this a little further? I assumed the various different 'flavors' of 'beads' were due to physical differences in the materials. If I understand you right, you're saying I can take my 70% beads and make them hold a steady 60% somehow?

If I'm just dumping a bit of water into a bag of beads, how do they know what RH to hold, and how can I get them to change their mind and pick a new RH?


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

Mark C said:


> Would you mind explaining this a little further? I assumed the various different 'flavors' of 'beads' were due to physical differences in the materials. If I understand you right, you're saying I can take my 70% beads and make them hold a steady 60% somehow?
> 
> If I'm just dumping a bit of water into a bag of beads, how do they know what RH to hold, and how can I get them to change their mind and pick a new RH?


From what David said, if you're using heartfelt beads they are treated chemically so that you can't change the RH. It's like that with Propylene Glycol treated gel, too. The additive controls the RH.
Different salt solutions can't be made to change their RH either. A number of different salts can be mixed to acheive a specific RH level and then they'll stay at their specific RH.
With untreated silica gels, activated clay, and molecular sieve you condition the gel to whatever RH you want.
You can do it a number of ways. The easiest is to put them in a humidor with other like beads.
Personally, I sit mine on a humidifier for a period of time, usually the best part of the day. Then I put them in a big Ziplock bag and test their RH with a calibrated hygrometer. If it's too low (which I shoot for) then I just spritz them with distilled water water a little bit, close them up, let them rest overnight, then check their RH again. I then repeat as necessary until they're right where I want them.
If they get too wet, all I have to do is put them in the open air cause it's only about 40% RH in my house right now. They'll give up water really fast, trying to get themselves to 40%RH. In a couple hours I put them in a ziplock bag and check them with a hygrometer again, repeating as necessary.
I can also heat over-wetted beads in the oven at 120F for awhile and then go check them and adjust accordingly. That's a bit dicey, but it's that or put them in the fridge to pull down their RH.

So essentially you can do any RH you want with one batch of beads (silica gel). You can do the same with the other dessicants I mentioned earlier.
But you can't smoke them. So they suck compared to cigars.
Just thought I'd add that in there cause I could really go for a cigar right now.
I think I'm gonna fire up cheapo so I can toss it in 10 minutes when I'm froze out. :tu
Hope this helped!!!
Scott


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## Mark C (Sep 19, 2007)

Ok, so untreated silica involves a more careful 'charging' step. You have to take a few extra steps to make sure you charge them to the right RH before putting them back in the humidor. If you add too much water you can get 80% beads, or 50% if you don't add enough. Whereas the Heartfelt beads are simply 'wet and forget' due to the chemical treatment. I think I appreciate the 'idiot proofing' treatment 

Those beads sure are some nifty little buggers.


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## sirxlaughs (Nov 18, 2005)

I am guessing it is similar to this stuff at bargain humidors.

http://www.bargainhumidors.com/bh/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=ACC-CONSERVAGEL


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## fizguy (Jul 26, 2006)

shilala said:


> From what David said, if you're using heartfelt beads they are treated chemically so that you can't change the RH. It's like that with Propylene Glycol treated gel, too. The additive controls the RH.
> Different salt solutions can't be made to change their RH either. A number of different salts can be mixed to acheive a specific RH level and then they'll stay at their specific RH.
> With untreated silica gels, activated clay, and molecular sieve you condition the gel to whatever RH you want.
> You can do it a number of ways. The easiest is to put them in a humidor with other like beads.
> ...


I am afraid I don't understand. It sounds like the silica beads will be conditioned to the humidity of the environment they are in. So if I put them in my humi, which is in my house, which has a very low RH (being winter and all) the beads will be conditioned to low RH. Thus they would be a very poor choice to keep my cigars at 65-70%. But most folks report that their beads do a wonderful job of maintaining humidity.


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## shilala (Feb 1, 2008)

fizguy said:


> I am afraid I don't understand. It sounds like the silica beads will be conditioned to the humidity of the environment they are in. So if I put them in my humi, which is in my house, which has a very low RH (being winter and all) the beads will be conditioned to low RH. Thus they would be a very poor choice to keep my cigars at 65-70%. But most folks report that their beads do a wonderful job of maintaining humidity.


You're putting them in a controlled atmosphere, your humidor.
If your humi is extremely leaky, nothing in the world will keep it right.
If it's decent and well sealed, the beads only have to take care of that small space within your humidor walls.

When conditioning the beads, I can sit them in the 40% rh of the house and they'll go to 40%, so they're more than halfway there.
Then I can just add small amounts of water until they are all the way up to the RH I want.


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## Viper139 (Jan 13, 2005)

I need to point out that what Shilala is talking about is not the product I sell.

There is no conditioning step with my product and the rh cannot drift from the preset level no matter what rh is in the container you put them in. My beads cannot be conditioned to a different rh level.

I don't know what product he is talking about but I assure you it is not Heartfelt Industries Humidity Beads.


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## Viper139 (Jan 13, 2005)

fizguy said:


> ...But most folks report that their beads do a wonderful job of maintaining humidity.


The "beads" the people are talking about are NOT what Shilala is talking about. They are talking about pre-conditioned beads not, for lack of a better word, "raw" silica beads.

The product I sell is a pre-conditioned silica bead.


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## Twill413 (Jul 19, 2006)

Viper139 said:


> There is no conditioning step with my product and the rh cannot drift from the preset level no matter what rh is in the container you put them in.


Unless you overwet them or don't wet them enough :tu. Of course that has more to do with user error than anything wrong with the beads, but just wanted to point that out. All the science in here was giving me a migraine, and all I know is that the heartfelt beads just work, and that's good enough for me.


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## icehog3 (Feb 20, 2005)

Just ordered new beads from Viper for my 300 ct and my coolador, great product and supreb customer service...thanks Dave!


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