# A question one should ponder



## altbier (Feb 20, 2005)

This should start a lively discussion, or maybe not.

Recently talking to a friend who is very knowledgable in the cigar world, he told me that Cuba doesnt grow Maduro?

So if cuba doesn't grom maduro leaves? how do they make maduro wrappers?

answer? where does some of the best maduro wrappers come from? Mexico

So is cuban buying leaves from mexico to make maduro cigars? yes
if they buy leaves for maduro, are they buying other leaves from other countires? my gut feeling is yes.


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## Da Klugs (Jan 8, 2005)

George.

I'm sure others can pipe in if I'm off base but I don't think anyone "grows" maduro leaf. My understanding is that it is done in the fermentation process. Like roasting coffee more time, more heat = darker and oily. Unless your Victor Sinclair and you paint it on.  

There are cubans which I have have seen promoted as maduro's on vendors sites.


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## Pablo (Oct 13, 1997)

My understanding as well. Maduro wrappers are "made" not "grown". How the leaf is fermented will control the color of theleaf, and thus it being called a maduro or not.


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## RPB67 (Mar 26, 2005)

I read this on another board.

This post was from Uncle Mikey
At one time when Macanudo was manufactured in the Temple Hall factory in Jamacia, they were a top notch brand and the best selling premium cigar in the US. Once the factory closed and General Cigar moved its production to the DR and Honduras the cigar has changed somewhat. Still the best premium starter cigar for new smokers. Brand recoginition and a quality smoke for the newbie.

As for you folks who don't much care for cigars from other countries then the ISOM, please consider this. Since 1985 Cuba has purchased most of its production tobacco; wrapper, binder and filler, from 1) Nicaragua; 2) Honduras; 3) Costa Rica; 4) Mexico; 5) Brazil. Most Cuban cigars today have as much tobacco from other countries then they do from Cuba. Much of the Cohiba Siglo line is produced in Mexico as is the Cohiba robusto and Esplendido. Don Nestor Placencia, The Oliva Family and Torano have been selling leaf tobacco to Cuba for years in hopes when Castro dies it will make it easier for them to re-acquire family farms to which they still have the original title deeds. The concept that Cuban cigars have only Cuban tobacco went out with Freedom in America years ago. Just my .02. mb
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## RPB67 (Mar 26, 2005)

Another post by him

I do understand your consternation but you have to know how the cigar industry works and it is no different in Cuba then anywhere else. Consider this, Cuba has not produced Maduro tobacco in over 40 years....where are all the Maduro cigars coming from? The Pinar del Rio region has been devistated by hurricanes for the past 12 years and is practically depleted of top soil. It is only the US that will not trade with Cuba all the other countries in the world do. Tobacco is one of the comodities that Cuba trades back and forth with many countries. On my last visit to Nicaragua and Honduras I saw bales of Cuban tobacco in almost every warehouse I visited. I'm sure the folks I speak with in the states aren't lying to me, why would they? But then I've touched a sacred cow and perhaps that is untenable. mb

Maybe it is true. The facts seem good. This was posted about 2 months ago on another board by him.


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## RPB67 (Mar 26, 2005)

His words again on the same thread - very interesting 

I agree that it indeed does cheapen Cuban cigars and upgrades NC products. However be that as it may the facts of what I have seen in Central America can't be disputed. Don Nestor Placencia himself showed me invoices for tobacco going and coming from Cuba. As to the devistations perhaps that is a bit strong but top soil has been washing away into the Caribbean for years. At one time Cuba had ten feet of top soil in the tobacco growing regions not so today. I was told that this is down to about 2-4 feet now. Still good but not what it was.

Gentlemen/Ladies please understand I too smoke Cuban cigars, well several brands and love them. I just don't see them as being that much different then some I like from other cigar producing countries. The blends are different or unique and that is why I like those particular cigars. I've been smoking Bolivar Beli Finos for years and have recently been intorduce to the Trinidad line. Hoyo Double Corona has always had a place in my humidor as does the Monte 3-4-5. Now I have just acquired several boxes of Ramon Allones Specially Selected which is rapidly becoming a favorite smoke. So I don't just promote a countrys cigar but individule cigars for their quality no matter where they come from.

I do make and blend cigars for myslef and others in Central America. I really don't know if any of the tobacco I use comes from Cuba. I only know when I combine tobaccos offered for me to use that the end result will please my customers. mb

He does post out here as well, doesnt he . It may be good to have him weigh in on the subject he seems to know it inside and out.


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## RPB67 (Mar 26, 2005)

Found some more by him on Maduro Wrappers

The production of Maduro wrappers in a process not a by product. It takes anywhere up to 18 months to naturally ferment tobacco to become Maduro and rely's upon the turning of the Burros or Pilon of tobacco many times while monitoring the internal temperature of the leaves. What you are suggesting is Cuban tobacco producers just allow tobacco to ferment and then toss the tobacco. I wonder.

I'm not saying they don't produce any at all but statistics we receive in the states indicates that Cuba has been on the short side of its production schedule for many years. This factor alone could be the reason Cuban cigar prices are high. More demand then product. If you are reading the US Cigar BB's, more and more US consumers are purchasing Cuban cigars taking away from Europe and the rest of the world production that once was readily available. Every one of these cigar bb's have a Cuban cigar section and in the retailer sections of these boards more and more European merchants are now willing to ship cigars to the US.

The decision to utilize and produce Maduro cigars again came from demand in my opinion not just the discarding of tobacco. Furthermore consider what it takes to produce quality Maduro tobacco wrapper. First there is the natural fermenting of the wrapper tobacco which could take anywhere from one year to three years. Then if the decision is to naturally ferment this tobacco into maduro that could take another period of time up to 18 months unless Cuba decided to utilize the "pressure cook" method that is widely used in Central America. This only takes a couple of weeks to complete. When Cuba first introduced it's "EL" lines they had no maduro tobacco in process, unless you are correct and it was a "by product". Could be. I suggest if the tobacco used was by product tobacco it would have been inferior and every EL I have ever smoked has been of superior quality so I would believe the Naturally Fermented Wrapper Tobacco used on these cigars would have had to come from somewhere else. Today in 2005 it is entirely possible Cuba could now be producing its own Naturally Fermented Maduro.

Remember in another post someone suggested that the information I was putting out could be advertising hype to drive up the valued of NC's and diminish the value of Cuban cigars? Well couldn't you also consider the Simon Chase might be doing the same thing from his standpoint???

As for criminal intent...consider the government we are dealing with. mb
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## RPB67 (Mar 26, 2005)

This was an email that the board recieved from a very good source that I and some of the members deal with - (source name left out) PMs welcome

Hi I was giving this statement(below) by someone.I believe this statement to be untrue and trying to prove it, can anyone from xxxxxx Help or prepared to give a comment. I could use on xxxxxxxx.
xxxxxxx 
"At one time when Macanudo was manufactured in the Temple Hall factory in Jamacia, they were a top notch brand and the best selling premium cigar in the US.
I am no expert on non Cubans but believe this to be true.
Once the factory closed and General Cigar moved its production to the DR and Honduras the cigar has changed somewhat. 
This is certainly true.
Still the best premium starter cigar for new smokers.
Certainly the best selling cigar in the USA....light and accessible.
Brand recognition and a quality smoke for the newbie. As for you folks who don't much care for cigars from other countries then the ISOM, please consider this. Since 1985 Cuba has purchased most of its production tobacco; wrapper, binder and filler, from 1) Nicaragua; 2) Honduras; 3) Costa Rica; 4) Mexico; 5) Brazil 
Not true.
Most Cuban cigars today have as much tobacco from other countries then they do from Cuba. 
Not true
Much of the Cohiba Siglo line is produced in Mexico as is the Cohiba robusto and Esplendido.
Total rubbish
Don Nestor Placencia, The Oliva Family and Torano have been selling leaf tobacco to Cuba for years in hopes when Castro dies it will make it easier for them ! to re-acquire family farms to which they still have the original title deeds. The concept that Cuban cigars have only Cuban tobacco went out with Freedom in America years ago. "
A good story but I don't believe it!

Kindest regards


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## RPB67 (Mar 26, 2005)

Response from Uncle Mikey 

xxxxx said it, you believe it and I stand corrected. Appoligies to all for my opinion and what I was told by others. mb

None of the above post are mine they are just something I read 2-3 months ago and seen this thread and felt it was perfect to post this due to the answers coming from two cigar greats.

RPB


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## RPB67 (Mar 26, 2005)

So what does all this mean.

Two very good sources I have quoted here. However IMOA. I think its a rumor due to what I have read and posted.

Especially after one of the good sources kinda feels he may have been wrong as well.


This should realy make this a lively one !


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## BigDirtyFoot (Jun 20, 2005)

I must say that I was fairly confused by your posting style, but I think I understood what you were trying to convey.

If they taste good to you, why does it REALLY matter if they're puro-Cuban or not? On the other hand, it is interesting to know for sure.


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## Da Klugs (Jan 8, 2005)

I cant believe I'm quoting JR here...

Maduro Wrappers 101

Dark and as rich tasting as the earth from which they grow, Maduro-wrapped cigars are a favorite among many. They are the darkest of all the various shades of brown, and provide a wide array of tastes, from a sweet, mellow flavor to a robust and hearty taste that only the most seasoned smoker could appreciate. 
"Maduro" is the Spanish word for "ripe" and is use cigar-wise to refer to the extra time required and the dark colors achieved during the natural fermentation of maduro wrappers. Typically these wrappers are oily, plush with flavor, and earthy to the nose.

As with all wrapper colors, there is a wide array of variance between subtle shades of brown, but there are three primary Maduro color groups:


Colorado Maduro (dark brown) - This color is found on some of the fullest flavored cigars in the world. Typically, these are sun-ripened and are sometimes referred to as "EMS" or "dark EMS."


Maduro (very dark brown) - This color is also occasionally referred to as "Spanish Market Selection" (SMS) because of the Spanish nation's love of dark, full-bodied cigars. 

Oscuro (basically black) - Also referred to as "Double Maduro or "Maduro Maduro." Very few of these are produced today with a few notable exceptions: the very full- flavored El Rey del Mundo Oscuro, Honduran Punch & Hoyo de Monterrey Double Maduro, and the JR Ultimate Oscuro lines. Also let me dismiss a common repeated fallacy regarding Double Maduro & Maduro Maduro cigars: These terms refer solely to their color and not that the cigar is wrapper in two maduro wrappers or a maduro wrapper and binder combo. Somehow this "two-wrapper" mistruth continues to be repeated by some tobacconist year after year. Please when you hear someone say this, politely educate him or her for everyone's benefit.

Now here is where things get a little confusing: The term "Maduro" can be used to describe solely the color of a wrapper, or it can be used to actually refer to the process of creating a Maduro wrapper leaf. In short, a cigar can be Maduro in color, but not actually a Maduro wrapper and vice versa, while a wrapper can be fermented using the methods that create natural Maduro wrappers, but the resulting color may be on the lighter end of the Maduro color spectrum.

Traditional hand-worked Maduro wrappers are the result of two separate processes. The first is utilizing leaves selected from the top 2/3 of the plant. The additional sun ripening provides the sweetness associated with Maduro wrappers. This is due to photosynthesis creating added sugar in the leaves. Also, the heavier oils for which Maduro wrappers are noted are the result of the plant's natural defenses; the leaf creates additional oils trying to protect itself from the sun's glare. Whether the leaf will become a mild- or a full-flavored Maduro wrapper is generally determined by where on the plant the leaf was selected. The leaves at the top of the plant produce full-flavored wrappers, whereas the middle leaves produce a milder wrapper. 

In addition to extra sun ripening, Maduro wrapper leaves are fermented longer and at a higher temperature. Natural wrappers will be fermented to between 100 and120 degrees for most varieties, while Maduro wrappers are fermented at higher temperatures, sometimes as high as ~150 degrees before being cased and turned. This extended high temperature fermentation turns the leaves the dark brown Maduro color. The longer the fermentation period, the darker the color, and the milder the wrappers will become. Also, only certain tobacco varietals' leaves can be used to create naturally fermented Maduro wrappers, as the tobacco must have sufficient body to withstand the higher fermentation temperature and lengthened bulk durations. Connecticut Broadleaf, Habana 2000, and Mexican Sumatran are the two strains most commonly used in the creation of Maduro wrapper leaf.

In the past, some manufacturers have been known to add weight atop of the pilones, thereby pressing the leaf tighter, which increases the internal temperature of the fermentation process. This is referred to as "press fermentation." Some factories also break apart the bulks, and allow the leaves additional time exposed in the sun between fermentation cycles. There are a variety of other techniques utilized to refine this time-honored process, but many remain closely held secrets by the tobacco men who work this dark leaf. Here it seems appropriate to mention master expatriate Cuban-cigar-maker Estelo Padron. In addition to being the master blender and cigar maker for the Villazon (HATSA) factory in Honduras, he is also widely regarded by his peers and cigar smokers as the master of sweating Maduro wrapper leaf. Cigars featuring his dark, rich wrappers are the epitome of the Maduro- cigar smoking experience.

Now it is time to introduce two other methods implemented to create Maduro wrappers. The first is "cooking," which more accurately described is actually steaming. In this process, the leaves are placed within a steam chamber for a period of 60-120 minutes and steamed at 180+ degrees Fahrenheit. The result is a very dark wrapper that is very consistent in color. Some hold in contempt this method, but actually this is the method that is most commonly used to create the wrappers used on most of the milder Maduro cigars. Although this is a much simpler and shorter process, the maker has to be vigilant, as it is possible to overcook the leaf resulting in a dull, flat-tasting wrapper with a silvery, gray appearance. The other alternative method is dying the leaves the desired dark brown color. This is done in a variety of ways - from sluices, vats, to even a machine that is snidely referred to as the "Madu-O-Matic" by those in the trade. This machine can "create" Maduro wrappers at a blazing pace and, typically, makers will add sugar to the molasses-like dye to sweeten the flavor of the leaf. This process is considered "cheating" by many in the industry, and is held in low regard by many traditional tobacco men. As a consumer, it is easy to detect whether your Maduro cigar is a faux, because most dyed Maduro cigars will actually leave a slight brown stain right on lip of the smoker.


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## SeanGAR (Jul 9, 2004)

If Cuba was buying their tobacco from other countries, why do their cigars taste different? I smoke cigars with Nicaraguan, Honduran, Costa Rican, Mexican and Brazilian leaves, and they don't taste Cuban. I smoke a lot of cheaper MM cuban cigars, which should be packed with the cheapest tobacco they can import, if indeed they import tobacco. Why do they taste different than NCs? Even if Cubans import tobacco, maybe it is for cheap domestic cigars. Who is to say? I have seen many pictures of very healthy looking fields of tobacco in Pinar del Rio ... topsoil or no topsoil. If Cuban tobacco is in Honduran and Nicaraguan warehouses, what is being done with it? If they are using it in their cigars, why do they taste different from Cuban? Where are they exporting these cigars containing Cuban tobacco? Would they risk their entire US business by sticking a leaf or two of Cuban tobacco into their cigars? If Cuba has tobacco production problems, why would they sell it to others? Maybe they buy Honduran tobacco and sell the same bales to Nicaraguans as Cuban?

"The statistics we receive in the states" for Cuban agricultural production are unlikely to be accurate, so they are meaningless. 

I heard the EL were started with tobacco that was accidentally overfermented. Certainly, to suggest that they don't or can't make their own should be backed by more than conjecture.

In any case, this is a good discussion and food for thought.


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## IHT (Dec 27, 2003)

SeanGAR said:


> If Cuba was buying their tobacco from other countries, why do their cigars taste different? I smoke cigars with Nicaraguan, Honduran, Costa Rican, Mexican and Brazilian leaves, and they don't taste Cuban.
> *IHT - word up, sean. i'm about 101% sure that cuban cigars only contain cuban tobacco. can i prove it? no, have i read it somewhere, like in books about ONLY cuban cigars or from people more knowledgeable than me? yes.*
> I smoke a lot of cheaper MM cuban cigars, which should be packed with the cheapest tobacco they can import, if indeed they import tobacco. Why do they taste different than NCs?
> *IHT - again, i agree.*


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## MoTheMan (May 24, 2003)

Here's what I know:

1) Cubans consider Maduro wrappers to come from only 1 source, and that is Connecticut Broadleaf Tobacco that's particularly cured to achieve the color, smoking qualities, and flavor that it has. Any other tobacco, they do not consider Maduro.

2) All this is kinda' funny because the other frequently used Maduro wrappers are Mexican (and occassionally Brazilian).

3) The Dark "Maduro" wrappers that Cubans use for their LE cigars they call Limited Edition Wrappers. They are different from the usual Criollo and Corojo strains used in Havanas. The LE wrapper is a Habana 2000 seed tobacco that's been cured to give the darker color and associated smoking characteristics. As some of you know, the H2000 plant was very popular in Cuba because of it's resilience and high yield. Sadly, it smoked & tasted like :BS. Seems the Cubans found a good use for it (some of the Cohiba LE and Partagas LE have been to my liking).

4) Now as for non-Cuban tobacco turning up in Cuban cigars. NO ONE KNOWS FOR SURE. I know tobacco people who travel to Central America and on more than one occassion they have seen receipts for the sale of tobacco to Cuba. What this means, no one knows for sure. The most sought after tobacco by the Cubans has been the Jalapa Valley variety, at least according to several sources, and the second most sought after has been varities grown in Honduran Highlands (areas near Nicaragua).


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## JohnnyCashFan (Apr 24, 2005)

This is a fascinating thread. I hope more experienced people keep chiming in, because I have no idea about any of this, but it is making great reading.


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## Brandon (Dec 11, 1997)

It is a way for them to get rid of those crappy H2000 wrappers. They have no place on a cigar. They should be used as fire retardant linings. Generally, I prefer that my cigars have no darker than a colorado wrapper. I generally find darker wrappers to be the thicker ones. Maduro wrapper are for the birds. I prefer quite the opposite in my cigars (for the most part).

Can we move this to the Habanos room?


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## DonWeb (Jul 3, 2005)

Da Klugs said:


> I cant believe I'm quoting JR here...
> 
> Maduro Wrappers 101
> 
> Dark and as rich tasting as the earth from which they grow...


very, very informative -- thanks for info.


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## Blueface (May 28, 2005)

Great thread as at minimum, food for thought.
Two cents.....why not believe Cubans are in fact incorporating tobacco from elsewhere. From everything one reads, they can't keep up with production demands. Castro needs $$$.

If the man exiles his mother, daughter and grand daughter, kills his friends and oppresses a nation for over 46 years, ANYTHING is possible and belieavable.


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## Syvman (Sep 7, 2005)

JohnnyCashFan said:


> This is a fascinating thread. I hope more experienced people keep chiming in, because I have no idea about any of this, but it is making great reading.


My thoughts exactly... I am really enjoying this thread. I was always under the impression that Cuban cigars were Puros - that was what made them what they were... But I don't know... I could be totally wrong.


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## ky toker (Jun 2, 2005)

This is interesting for the fact that I thought Cuba did not wrap their cigars with a maduro wrapper.

Hopefull bumping this back up will draw someone's attention to it again.


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## cvm4 (Sep 10, 2005)

I think it's all marketing ploy by the n/c manufacturers so people won't look at cubans as the "forbidden fruit" anymore. I don't believe it one bit though.

How come all the Dom's/Nic's, etc. never taste like a cuban cigar? Food for thought :2


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## pyrotech (Sep 8, 2005)

Habanos SA guarantee all tobacco in the cigars they distribute is Cuban grown.

Why would they want inferior product in there!!!!!!!!!!.


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## TTgirl (Sep 8, 2005)

SeanGAR said:


> If Cuba was buying their tobacco from other countries, why do their cigars taste different? I smoke cigars with Nicaraguan, Honduran, Costa Rican, Mexican and Brazilian leaves, and they don't taste Cuban. I smoke a lot of cheaper MM cuban cigars, which should be packed with the cheapest tobacco they can import, if indeed they import tobacco. Why do they taste different than NCs? Even if Cubans import tobacco, maybe it is for cheap domestic cigars. Who is to say? I have seen many pictures of very healthy looking fields of tobacco in Pinar del Rio ... topsoil or no topsoil. If Cuban tobacco is in Honduran and Nicaraguan warehouses, what is being done with it? If they are using it in their cigars, why do they taste different from Cuban? Where are they exporting these cigars containing Cuban tobacco? Would they risk their entire US business by sticking a leaf or two of Cuban tobacco into their cigars? If Cuba has tobacco production problems, why would they sell it to others? Maybe they buy Honduran tobacco and sell the same bales to Nicaraguans as Cuban?


I was wondering the same thing. Could how the tobacco is blended have something to do with it? I guess you could liken it to two chefs using the same ingredients to make a cheesecake, yet one will be a little different than the other for whatever reason. Do any of you give any merit to that?


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## MoTheMan (May 24, 2003)

Regarding use of non-Cuban tobaccos, Habanos stand is that all Cuban cigars have only one thing in them and that is Cuban tobacco. Nothing more, nothing less, at least according to Habanos, S.A.


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## altbier (Feb 20, 2005)

Wow, this thread comes back alive. So I read that one of the main things thats help cuban tobacco is lithium. you guys are assuming that if they buy tobacco from other countries it is all made from that tobacco. So if a cigar is rolled with 60% cuban and 40% honduran, it will still have the cuban taste and not like Nicaraguan 100%

just thinking out loud. Isn't cuban production of cigars ramping up? something like 60mil cigar, but where is the extra tobacco coming from?


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## SeanGAR (Jul 9, 2004)

altbier said:


> Wow, this thread comes back alive. So I read that one of the main things thats help cuban tobacco is lithium. you guys are assuming that if they buy tobacco from other countries it is all made from that tobacco. So if a cigar is rolled with 60% cuban and 40% honduran, it will still have the cuban taste and not like Nicaraguan 100%
> 
> just thinking out loud. Isn't cuban production of cigars ramping up? something like 60mil cigar, but where is the extra tobacco coming from?


Cuba produces tobacco in areas other than Vuelta Abajo. I think they're more likely to stick a leaf of Vuelta Arriba in a mix to make it go further than to buy leaf from someplace else. Cigars rolled with Arriba leaf can be OK .... but definately don't have the same quality as Abajo. But honestly I doubt even that ... I don't think Cubans are dumb enough to diddle around with a successful product that generates cash ... they'd be more likely to screw the Cuban people than Swiss bankers.


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## Da Klugs (Jan 8, 2005)

It's like pondering the origin of skills in a life partner. Not a useful exercise. I say... if they taste good.. smoke em.


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## icehog3 (Feb 20, 2005)

Da Klugs said:


> It's like pondering the origin of skills in a life partner. Not a useful exercise. I say... if they taste good.. smoke em.


Words of wisdom Dave, words of wisdom! :r


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## punch (Mar 5, 2005)

I had read in one book (Rudman's, I believe - circa 1997) that Cuba was purchasing wrapper leaf from Nicaragua due to Blue Mold problems. As to quality, there are also articles out there that can be searched on the internet (I ran accross them while doing research on another subject) that state that the Europeans were getting rather upset with the quality (or lack of) of cigars coming out of Cuba (circa 1999). Now with the Spanish owning half of Habanos, who knows what is really happening. Another thing to consider: the toungue only senses five flavors. I wonder how much of the "Cuban" flavor is in the mind of the beholder. Just presenting some ideas. For my part, I prefer to believe that the Cuban cigars are Puros - at least the big named ones. My taste buds sometimes don't detect much of a difference between some Cuban and NC brands, but my nose sure does (when it is not plugged with alergies). I'm sure this smell difference translates into taste differences for those who have not damaged their sinuses to the extent that I have :2


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## Brandon (Dec 11, 1997)

Just stick to smoking AF Curly Heads. Therefore, you don't have to worry about getting what you are paying for :r


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## SeanGAR (Jul 9, 2004)

punch said:


> Another thing to consider: the toungue only senses five flavors. I wonder how much of the "Cuban" flavor is in the mind of the beholder.


Your appreciation for cigars results mainly from retronasal movement of tobacco smoke into your nose where your olfactory sensory epithelium is located. Thats why if your nose is plugged with a cold you will not get the same enjoyment from a cigar. If you smoke a cigar with your nose plugged you get the same effect .... no appreciation for the cigar flavors.

You don't even have to light most Cuban cigars to recognize their smell. I am no expert, but there are people who can pick an unbanded cuban cigar out of a pile of 10 unbanded noncubans easily from smell alone. What does that tell us?


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## Don Fernando (Jan 1, 2000)

we should shower if we're planning ot meet any said experts.


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## One Lonely Smoker (Jan 21, 2005)

This post originated from a guy that actually copied one of my reviews (P898) and posted it in another forum without attribution. So copying and pasting is no surprise to me. BUT he did attribute it to a source this time.

CA had reported a few years ago in an article they wrote about how some cuban tobacco men were in Nicaragua growing wrapper tobacco. They assured the CA guys that the wrapper was strictly for sale OUTSIDE of Cuba and was not being grown to ship to the island. THAT'S when a light bulb went off in my head. I won't accuse the Cubans of anything cause I just don't know, and I agree with the others here who just don't care because the taste they want is the taste they expect is the taste they get!
BUT AGAIN, I have some La Gloria Wavells from the DR and I SWEAR they have a twang in the finish! It is not even SUBTLE. I THINK that there may be some unmarked bales in some factorys that are blended in, a la what one does not know won't hurt them. But as far as wrapper tobacco getting into Cuba and going on export cigars. I don't doubt it. Filler and binder, not so much


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## One Lonely Smoker (Jan 21, 2005)

Pardon me and 1000 padrons to the bier miester. I meant that poke at someone else entirely. And of course that person knows who he is. Sorry Altbier!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## punch (Mar 5, 2005)

One Lonely Smoker said:


> CA had reported a few years ago in an article they wrote about how some cuban tobacco men were in Nicaragua growing wrapper tobacco. They assured the CA guys that the wrapper was strictly for sale OUTSIDE of Cuba and was not being grown to ship to the island. THAT'S when a light bulb went off in my head. I won't accuse the Cubans of anything cause I just don't know, and I agree with the others here who just don't care because the taste they want is the taste they expect is the taste they get!
> BUT AGAIN, I have some La Gloria Wavells from the DR and I SWEAR they have a twang in the finish! It is not even SUBTLE. I THINK that there may be some unmarked bales in some factorys that are blended in, a la what one does not know won't hurt them. But as far as wrapper tobacco getting into Cuba and going on export cigars. I don't doubt it. Filler and binder, not so much


I'm glad that I am not the only one. I have noticed the same thing with a couple of Honduran cigars. I just attributed it to my messed up olfactory system. Also, I don't want to say that Habanos is pulling anything either. If they say they are puros, so be it. I do, however, find it hard to believe that with the amount of very good tobaccos being grown outside of Cuba lately, that the temptation to blend has not been present. Who really knows?


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## altbier (Feb 20, 2005)

One Lonely Smoker said:


> Pardon me and 1000 padrons to the bier miester. I meant that poke at someone else entirely. And of course that person knows who he is. Sorry Altbier!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


when do i get my 1000 padrons?

I knew what you meant :r


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